Cheers for being held.
The natives wore red and white ribbons symbolizing peace and determination.
From the base, they went to the Mohawk territory of Kahnawake, where a big dinner was served
and the Mohawk National Anthem was sung.
For WBAI News, I'm Paul DiRienzo.
In court news, a former trader for ex-junk bond king Michael Milken says his boss never
asked him to manipulate the price of a company's stock.
The testimony came today at a pre-sentencing hearing in New York.
The government accuses Milken of stock manipulation and a fee-driven scheme.
Milken pleaded guilty in April to a half-dozen felonies, including conspiracy and securities
fraud.
In Los Angeles, former Lincoln Savings and Loan head Charles Keating, having exhausted
his options at the state court level, asked a federal court today to reduce his $5 million
bail.
In court documents, Keating's attorneys argued that the financier's current bail is in violation
of his constitutional rights and noted that two co-defendants charged with identical crimes
received bail 50 times lower than Keating's.
Keating has been held in Los Angeles County Jail since September 18th, when his bail was
set by Superior Court Judge Gary Klausner, who said Keating might flee.
Keating, the former operator of the failed Lincoln Savings and Loan in Irvine, just three
years ago estimated his wealth at nearly $40 million.
However, he now claims he has $5.2 million in debt and therefore cannot post the bail.
And here in New York, a Brooklyn judge declared a mistrial today in the Bensonhurst racial
slaying case after a female juror was dismissed when she accused the father of the victim
of trying to stare her down.
State Supreme Court Justice Thaddeus Owens, citing the state constitution, declared the
mistrial about 5.45 this afternoon, telling the defense and prosecution attorneys, you
must have 12 jurors.
This trial cannot be done.
Owens set a new trial date of January 17th for Charles Stressler, accused of supplying
bats to a mob of angry whites who surrounded Yusuf Hawkins and three of his friends on
a street in the mostly white neighborhood of Bensonhurst.
Stressler will be tried with the eighth and last defendant in the case, Stephen Careri,
who faces assault charges and is the only defendant not charged with murder.
Said Owens, I have no choice, that's what the constitution says.
And in other court news, a neo-Nazi skinhead convicted of the murder of an Ethiopian student
testified in the trial of Tom Metzger today as the leader of the white Aryan resistance.
Metzger has been sued for his role in allegedly inciting a group of skinheads to carry out
the murder.
Robert Smith has more from Portland, Oregon.
The $10 million case against Metzger depends on drawing a link between Metzger and the
three skinheads who beat Mulegata Serra to death in November 1988.
One of those skinheads, Ken Miske, said today that no one had control over his group of
skinheads.
Miske, also known as Ken Death, appeared in court with shoulder-length blonde hair.
He is currently serving a sentence for the death of Serra.
Miske said, though, that his group of skinhead friends weren't a formal organization.
What type of group was this?
How was it organized?
Did you have a president?
I wouldn't know.
It was nothing like that.
It was just a bunch of skinheads in Portland that viewed the same ideas, had their own
trip going.
You know, they'd just hang out.
You know, everybody was just hanging out together, hanging flyers up and whatever.
Morris Deas, the lawyer for Serra's family, questioned Miske extensively about his link
to Tom Metzger.
In confrontational exchanges, Miske admitted that he had gotten a letter from John Metzger,
Tom's son, and that he had met with an agent of the Metzgers.
He denied, though, that that agent provided any training or any direct orders from Metzger.
The most surprising part of the testimony was when Miske talked about the night Serra
was killed.
None of the skinheads had testified about that murder before, since they all pled guilty
to the crime and to racial intimidation.
Miske claimed today that he killed Serra in self-defense and that he admitted to a racial
motive just to get a better plea.
With all the threats I was getting from the federal prosecutors and whatnot, I just didn't
decide to take a 20-year minimum.
I didn't want to say that I killed Serra because of his race, but that was part of
the plea.
Morris Deas continued to point out how Miske's story differed from his deposition and from
the other skinheads' story.
Miske said that all the others were lying, mentioning some sort of plot between them.
Metzger, who is representing himself, cross-examined Miske.
Under somewhat leading questions, Miske said that the supposed agent of Metzger was also
distributing Ku Klux Klan propaganda.
Miske also said that Metzger had not ordered or encouraged violence.
The cross-examination is scheduled to continue.
For Pacifica, this is Robert Smith in Portland.
More than 12 years ago, white South African journalist Donald Woods, whose life and work
against apartheid inspired the movie Cry Freedom, was forced to flee his home country.
This August, he returned to South Africa for a six-week visit.
In New York today, Donald Woods discussed the depth of reform in that country and the
problems that lie ahead.
Deepika Dayal has more.
Donald Woods says he is optimistic about the political future of South Africa.
He envisions its new constitution will be similar to that of the United States.
But he warns that dismantling apartheid will not solve all of South Africa's problems.
What's going against them is restart demographics.
By the turn of the century, there'll be 60 million South Africans, of whom 54 million
will be black.
Two-thirds of those, unless something very dramatic happens in the next 10 years, are
going to be recipients of inferior education, terrible housing conditions.
And they need something like 340,000 new jobs a year.
They're currently running at about 2,000 to 3,000.
The economy is in a mess.
For years, the country has relied on gold, diamonds, and mineral wealth.
It seems to me we South Africans have for too long relied on mineral wealth and forgotten
that the real wealth of the country is its people, and we're going to have to discover
that pretty quickly, I think.
The other huge problems looming have to do with the resolution of details of liberty.
Woods compares the political process South Africa has to go through to set up a political
framework with the drafting of the American Constitution.
He expressed the hope that South Africa's leadership will display the same genius that
America's forefathers have.
Woods also attempted to explain the violence currently plaguing South African townships.
For him, the issues underlying the violence are too complex to be branded tribal.
The township violence that's been going on is so often represented as tribal.
And there's a grain of truth in that frequently the clashes have been between people who speak
Xhosa, people who speak Zulu.
But it's very misleading.
In South Africa, because people from this region are in that compound and people from
that region are in this compound, it's reported as tribal conflict.
So the very tenuous links between what language they speak, and in any case, many South Africans
would know that Xhosa, Zulu, Swazi, Ndebele are basically one language anyway, and tribalism
as such has not been a major feature of black South African politics for over 80 years.
There are those who are trying to tribalize it, but I don't think they'll succeed in the
long run.
Also, there are elements of violence which frequently cannot be pigeonholed and categorized.
You know, we live in a world where leaders or aspiring leaders feel they have to give
a one-liner explanation for the most complex things.
Inevitably, people are trying to say, well, the violence in South Africa is because of
this or that or that.
Now, after six weeks there, I'm not sure that anyone knows entirely what every aspect of
that violence is about.
For WBAI News, I'm Devika Dayal.
And finally tonight, the Mexican poet and essayist, Octavio Paz, has won the Nobel Prize
for Literature.
He said the honor was important for Spanish literature and came as a total surprise.
The 76-year-old Paz is perhaps best known for the book, The Labyrinth of Solitude, in
which he offers a controversial and often startling analysis of modern Mexico and the
Mexican personality.
I am very grateful to the committee, Paz said when reached by telephone at a New York hotel.
He was in the United States to deliver a lecture next week at the Metropolitan Museum of Art,
where an exhibit of Mexican art is being shown.
The Academy said that in choosing Paz, it was honoring a writer of Spanish with a wide
international perspective.
Paz said, I was always interested in international culture, and I think writers must be a bridge
from one culture to another.
And that's some of the news for Thursday, October 11th, 1990.
The news was engineered by Anthony Sloan.
It was produced with Jenny Bourne, Devika Dayal, Robert Knight, Robert Hennelly, and
Alan Lipke.
I'm Amy Goodman in New York with Don Rush in Washington for WBAI Listener Supported
News.
Hi, I'm Edward Asner.
Do you believe in freedom of speech?
I do.
That's why I support free speech radio, listener sponsored WBAI New York 99.5 on your FM dial.
This Saturday, October 13th at 12 noon, a newly formed grassroots organization, the
Citizens Planning Board, is holding a demonstration on the site of the proposed 2,000 acre Breslin
Development Project, slated to include New York's largest mall, an industrial park,
high density housing, and more in Long Island's last stand of unprotected pine barrens.
This site is directly above our state designated sole source drinking water aquifer.
Take the Long Island Expressway to exit 68 North, the William Floyd Parkway.
Go one half mile north on the William Floyd to the demonstration site.
For more information, contact the Citizens Planning Board at 928-6391 or 473-1039.
Those numbers again, 928-6391 or 473-1039.
That's this Saturday, October 13th at 12 noon.
And those are area code 516.
And again, that demonstration is taking place this Saturday, 12 noon, exit 68 on the Long
Island Expressway.
And just one of many chapters unfolding in the environmental world.
Good evening, this is Emmanuel Goldstein filling in for Andrew Phillips on investigations.
And there's an awful lot of people sleeping out there.
Too many people sleeping.
Hopefully tonight we can wake some of you up with some environmental news.
Stay with us.
Seashell and stone.
Swift rushes forward to feel the shingle with fingers that throw.
Search for the gold.
Over the landscape, the mouth of a lifeline.
Search for the gold.
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Well, you know, the fact is, with every passing day...
The environment seems to become less and less.
I was standing outside tonight.
And I'm not going to tell you where because ten THOUSAND people are gonna want to go there
if I tell you where, but I was standing outside.
And I could smell the leaves.
I could smell flowers.
I could smell the night air.
When was the last time you were able to do that?
It doesn't seem like maybe you were able to do that
a lot more in the past than you are now.
I'd like to know, are those people that have been around
for longer periods of time, how have things changed?
You know, I'm not all that old a person,
but I remember things changing so tremendously
in the last decade.
Incredible changes.
And there are people who want to change even more.
They want to do what is known as development,
but which I prefer to call destruction.
We're gonna be talking tonight with four environmentalists
from Long Island who are fighting a proposed
super mega monstrous mall that is slated
to be built out there.
And we'll be talking about the future
of environmental activism and what you can do.
But first, a bit of humor.
I went to McDonald's tonight.
After I went to that nice open area
where I could smell the trees and everything,
I felt the need for as radical a departure
from that as possible, so I went to McDonald's
and lo and behold, inside McDonald's,
they have these little pamphlets now.
And I picked up two of them.
One is called Our Rainforest Policy
and the other is called Ozone.
So gather around the radio and listen to McDonald's
positions on these environmental issues.
Okay, first of all, tropical rainforests
play an important role in the Earth's ecology
and their destruction threatens
the delicate environmental balance of our planet,
not to mention our profits.
For the record, and this is all in capital letters here,
nowhere in the world does McDonald's purchase beef
raised on rainforest or recently
deforested rainforest land.
In fact, McDonald's has a strict corporate policy
against using rainforest beef.
It is, this is in quotes,
it is McDonald's policy to use only locally produced
and processed beef in every country
where we have restaurants.
In those isolated areas where domestic beef
is not available, it is imported from approved
McDonald's suppliers from other countries.
In all cases, however, McDonald's does not,
has not, and will not permit the destruction
of tropical rainforest for our beef supply.
This policy is strictly enforced and closely monitored.
Any McDonald's supplier who is found to deviate
from this policy or cannot prove compliance with it
will be immediately discontinued.
In the US, we use only 100% pure US domestic beef.
In Canada, we use only 100% pure Canadian beef.
And in Europe, we use only European economic community
grown and approved beef.
McDonald's will continue to monitor its beef suppliers
and adopt policies and practices aimed at protecting
the global environment on which we all depend.
And this was printed on recycled paper.
Gosh darn it all, those folks from McDonald's
are just something else.
And what they say on ozone, this is pamphlet number eight,
that was pamphlet number five.
And the other pamphlets have to do with why Big Macs
and fish fillets are good for you.
Ozone, several years ago, scientists agreed
that fully halogenated chlorofluorocarbons, CFCs,
were contributing to the depletion of the Earth's
protective ozone layer.
McDonald's was the first in our industry
to require our packaging suppliers to phase out
the use of these CFCs as blowing agents
for our polystyrene foam packaging.
The phase out of fully halogenated CFCs
was completed in 1988.
Today, our foam packaging is made
with alternative blowing agents.
Our move to these alternative blowing agents
has been supported by leading environmental organizations
and the EPA has called this move part of the solution
to stratospheric ozone depletion.
As new solutions continue to present themselves,
McDonald's will continue to study them.
After all, good packaging does a whole lot more
than just hold things.
Boy, get you right here, you know?
You picture the folks around the corporate tables
of McDonald's just thinking of ways
to help the environment even more.
I don't know, I don't mean to sound like a pessimist
or a non-believer or something,
but I think a lot of pressure is responsible
for these little pieces of recycled paper
that they're distributing.
And such pressure has to be applied everywhere
that we see weaknesses.
And finally, from today's New York Times,
university officials from 22 lands give environment pledge.
Dateline Paris underlining the urgent need
to move toward an environmentally sustainable future,
a group of university presidents from around the world
have pledged to greatly increase the amount
their schools teach about environmental issues
and urged other universities to do the same.
Meeting at a conference in Talor, France,
the university officials said this week
that they would increase research on the environment,
create programs to produce expertise
in environmental management
and integrate environmental issues
throughout their curriculum.
They said they would also encourage programs
to make faculty members more knowledgeable
about environmental issues so that, for example,
literature or political science professors
could also discuss environmental matters
in their classrooms.
In other words, it applies to everybody.
In their declaration, officials from 22 countries
in North and South America, Europe, Africa and Asia
said, we human beings have become a danger to ourselves.
We must act in time.
What's wrong with Australia?
They're absent there.
Continuing, although differences in regional perspectives
and academic traditions necessarily create a diversity
in our teaching and research, the declaration continued,
we share and aspire to common goals
in developing the intellectual capital
for an environmentally sustainable future.
The conference was organized by Gene Meyer,
president of Tufts University in Medford, Massachusetts.
Tufts has sought to set an example for other universities
in teaching about the environment.
It has an environmental literacy institute
to train faculty members to integrate environmental issues
into their curriculum and it has incorporated discussions
of environmental concerns in its drama classes,
engineering school, medical school, veterinary school
and school of diplomacy.
So a bit of good news there.
More people who become aware,
the more we have the chance of doing something about it.
Now, to get to the specific issue at hand,
Dateline, about 60, 70, 80 miles east of New York City.
We have what is the last holdout,
the last bit of open space that protects our drinking water,
that provides a bit of a scenic relief from the strip malls,
but that particular area is being threatened.
That particular area has always been threatened,
but now the threat seems almost imminent.
And as a result of this,
several environmental groups are getting together
and holding a demonstration on Saturday.
And hopefully that is only the beginning
of what ultimately will be a battle of the people, I guess.
We have with us Dick Amper from the Pine Barren Society,
Dan Morris from the Open Space Council,
Nancy Oku, a member of the Citizens Planning Board
and a Manhattan environmental educator,
and Rich DiDonato,
member of the newly formed Citizens Planning Board
and a concerned citizen out in Suffolk County.
And this obviously is something that affects people,
not just in Long Island,
but in New York, New Jersey, Connecticut, all over,
and something we should pay very strict attention to.
Let's start off with Dick Amper
from the Pine Barren Society.
Dick, are you with us?
I am indeed.
I was very much appreciative of your comments
about McDonald's public relations literature.
It shouldn't be too discouraging.
There's an acknowledgement
that McDonald's has a bad environmental reputation
that they really can't survive with.
And while they seem to have latched onto their competitor,
Wendy's question, where's the beef?
What they haven't latched onto at the moment
is what's the beef?
The beef is that they're simply not responsive
to the increased awareness on the part of their customers
and the public as a whole
that we need to do something about the environment
that more of the same is not gonna do anything for us.
That's what we're encountering
just 55 miles from Manhattan in Long Island's Pine Barrens.
There used to be 250,000 acres of them,
150,000 of them have been paved over to date.
We just have 100,000 left.
And at the very gateway to the Pine Barrens,
there is the first of 238 projects,
developments from strip shopping centers
that we cannot rent to condominiums that we cannot sell,
all of it above a special groundwater protection area
at the gateway to the Pine Barrens,
the biggest of the 238 is a project
that Wilbur Breslin calls One Man's Dream.
And we think it's the tri-state region's nightmare.
He calls it Brookhaven Town Center
and North Shore Properties.
We call it Willy World.
And just like the fictional or the comic
Project Wally World that was supposed
to entertain and provide some economic attraction,
we think it is a potential dinosaur on the environment
that threatens both our economic wellbeing
and our environmental wellbeing.
It threatens our drinking water.
It threatens the rare and endangered species
that make the Pine Barrens their home.
And it certainly threatens the high taxes
and the declining economy that has wrecked most
of our urbanized area and which is wiping out
the western portion of Long Island, even as we speak.
So all of these groups have banded together.
We can't find anybody outside the building community
that thinks this is a good idea.
And we need the help of everybody
in this tri-state area this coming Saturday.
And in the weeks that will follow
as the efforts to approve this project go forward,
there is a war that we're all aware of
to preserve our environment.
And the battle line is drawn at the gateway
to the Pine Barrens this weekend.
Okay, well, we're gonna get back
to your specific role in all this,
but let me just ask one question.
You say there are 237 projects planned
for this particular area?
Well, we only have 100,000 acres left,
50,000 of them are in private hands.
And I must tell you, we're shocked to report
that there are 238 separate projects
that would blanket 44,000 of the 50,000 acres
that are still in private hands.
And what government has done for too long
is they've said, this one little housing project
won't hurt a thing, or this strip shopping center
won't hurt anything at all by itself,
without considering the hundreds upon hundreds of projects
that in fact will certainly do devastation
to our drinking water supply
and to the greatest diversity of plants and animals
that live in the state of New York.
So we've demanded through the largest lawsuit
in the history of the state
that all of these cumulative impacts be considered
before any further project is advanced.
And the biggest and the most important of these
is willy-wirled, as we call it, and it's not needed
and a very, very serious threat to Long Island
on the one hand, but to the future of environment
in our nation if this is allowed to be approved
on the other.
Okay, with that, let's move over to Dan Morris
of the Open Space Council.
Dan, your group is battling this particular project
specifically, is that correct?
That's correct, yes.
What are you doing to stop the project
and how long have you been involved
in trying to stop this project?
Well, Mr. Breslin presented his,
or made public, more or less,
his plans for over 2,000 acres in Pine Barrens
in the Yapank Ridge, Middle Island area
in February of 1989.
We have been involved since then in one form or another,
communicating with the town,
trying to get the best plan for the area
for Brookhaven Town and the rest of Long Island.
Now, when you say 2,000 acres,
just to put this into perspective,
how does that compare to other malls,
other projects in the past?
Well, the other malls,
the mall that's part of his project
will cover approximately 125 acres
of Pine Barrens,
leaving 25 acres from the 150 acres he owns in that area.
But this is just part of his holdings.
Other malls in the area are,
the South Shore Mall is approximately 89 acres
of developed area,
and I believe the Smithhaven Mall
is a little bit less than that.
So would this, in fact,
be the biggest mall in Long Island?
This, depending, I think, on how you measure it,
it is the biggest mall, definitely, in Suffolk County,
and it would be first or second,
right up there with Roosevelt Mall in Nassau County.
I'm just curious how this is justified
when the area that they wanna build this mall
is so sparsely populated.
How can it possibly support a mall of that size?
That is one of the questions
that the Open Space Council has asked in the past
and is still asking.
And in the environmental impact statement,
the, Mr. Breslin presented a report
that said that, that was done in 1988,
that said that there was a,
that not that there was a need for the mall,
but that the mall would face no opposition
in the retail market in the area.
That is different than showing a need for the project.
It just means that he will be able to put his stores
in there and, I believe, suck the economic life
out of areas like Patchogue and Riverhead
and other, Port Jefferson,
other smaller downtown business districts
that we've been trying very hard to preserve
on the East End for the last 20 years.
Okay, let's move to Nancy Oku,
a member of the Citizens Planning Board,
Manhattan Environmental Educator.
Nancy, can you tell us something
about the Citizens Planning Board?
I understand this is a new group that's just been formed.
Yes, we just formed a couple of weeks ago, actually,
when a group of citizens
who are just a diverse group of people,
from shop owners to housewives,
the elderly people who are concerned
about how this mall is gonna affect their taxes,
because we're probably gonna pay
for all the facilities that are needed
to help put this mall in,
have just kind of come together at kind of the 11th hour
to try to hear, have our voices heard
in the planning process,
because we really feel that the Brookhaven Town Board
has not been very responsive
to public input on this project.
And many people that we're finding out
have just never even heard of the scope of this project,
that it's really a foot in the door for Mr. Breslin
to really build this 2,000-acre project
with high-density housing.
I think he plans to put a monorail in, an industrial park,
and that's pretty frightening
to most of the people who live out here.
Monorail in Long Island, that is, that's pretty frightening.
Monorail, you know, it's probably not gonna serve
a very large area, so it really is Willy World,
and we hope that it doesn't become another Disneyland,
like in Florida, that has really done a very bad job
at impacting the environment there,
and that has not really served the needs of the community.
So we're just a group of people
who have kind of come together with our little voices,
and we want to really try to help
see that kind of correct planning,
not just for this project,
but for all of this area of Long Island.
We're from not just Brookhaven, but Huntington, Westbury.
People are coming from all over,
and we're really feeling that city planning,
the process is not being responsive
to the needs of local people,
plus not just locally.
I think one of my concerns is that planning now
must take into consideration the entire world,
because what we do here in development,
tearing down trees, is going to affect
the entire ecosystem of the world,
not just our little area anymore.
So I think that's one of the reasons we have formed.
Rich DiDonato, you're also a member
of the Citizens Planning Board.
Can you tell us something about
what's going to be happening on Saturday?
Well, Emmanuel, Saturday we are meeting
on the proposed site of the Breslin Mall,
and that is at the gateway to the Pine Barrens,
like Dick Amper said,
for people who would like to join us on Saturday.
October 13th at 12 noon,
they should take the Long Island Expressway
to exit 68, and that's William Floyd Parkway.
Go north on the William Floyd Parkway,
approximately 1 1⁄2 mile,
and they will see us and the banners
and the crowds, thongs of people, I would imagine,
everyone getting together to voice their opinion.
I think we'll have some good press coverage.
It should be interesting.
I would also like to say quickly
that the Citizens Planning Board
takes all responsibility
for this particular event on Saturday,
even though we have the, I would imagine,
support of the other groups out here on Long Island.
The Citizens Planning Board are the actual organizers
of this particular event.
Also, on Monday, Monday the 15th of October,
just two days later, the Citizens Planning Board
will confront the Brookhaven Town Planning Board
in their chamber, up behind their large desks
and up in their big cushioned chairs
where they reign supreme
with their authoritarian air about them,
and the little meek citizens will be down
on the ground level, you know,
addressing their questions and protests
up to the Brookhaven Town Planning Board
asking all kinds of, shall we say,
embarrassing, pressing, unanswered questions
as to the legality of many aspects of this project,
the lack of impact studies environmentally,
economically to the area.
Dick Amper can tell you a lot more about that.
And so I would like to invite everyone
in within the reaches of Radioland here
to, if they want to have some real input
and some excitement on Monday the 15th
to take exit 64.
Manuel, is that 64, 112?
Yeah, exit 64 is 112.
64 off the Long Island Expressway
and to go north on Route 112
till they get to the, not too far, about a mile or two,
to 32, 33, Route 112,
and that's the Brookhaven Town offices.
Again, that's exit 64 on the expressway,
north one or two miles
to the Brookhaven Town offices,
32, 33, Route 112,
any time after 130 on Monday the 15th.
Why don't you ask Dick Amper why Monday the 15th
is so important as far as this Willy Whirl project is, okay?
Well, I think he just-
To answer that question, appreciate it, Rich and Emanuel.
The importance of this is we're gonna demonstrate
to everyone that we are concerned
about this project on Saturday,
and then we're gonna actually take this message
to our government.
We don't expect builders to stop building.
That's what they've been doing.
That's how they ruined the western part of Long Island
and so much of the city areas.
So many New Yorkers flock to the East End
because it represents the really last vestiges
of our precious natural heritage.
We've got our beaches and our parkland
and our waterways,
and it really is the retreat
that reminds us where we all came from.
What we need to do is go to the people
who are ostensibly supposed to represent us,
the folks in government who have let us down
in a surprising way and let them know
that we're not gonna tolerate that anymore.
The Citizens Planning Board is just that.
Citizens that are trying to do the planning
that the government planners have failed to do or execute
over the last 20 years that have driven our taxes up
and our property values down,
more importantly, have threatened something as basic
as drinking water and the habitat of rare
and endangered species that count on us to protect them.
So by going to the Planning Board meeting
on Monday afternoon, we are allowed to go back
to government and turn things around and say,
you know, when you have an opinion, we'll give it to you.
You're elected officials, you represent us.
There's so much arrogance in government.
There's so much ignorance in government.
There's so much self-serving behavior in government.
Exactly.
That what we really need to do is stand up
and really retake control of our own destiny
by saying we are in charge of our government.
If you wanna stay around here and represent us
in the next decade, you gotta start learning
from the mistakes of the past.
So we wanna go to Brookhaven Town Hall and say,
this is not one man's project
that you're here to rubber stamp.
You need to answer the key questions being raised
by a Citizens Planning Board that was only created
because of the government planning board
wasn't doing its job, that the Pine Barren Society
has been raising for four years with you,
the need to conduct a cumulative environmental impact
statement for the area, and that the Open Space Council
has been haranguing them about for a decade
that if we don't protect open space,
we'll have no reason to live here
or come here to visit any longer.
So there are lots of ways that people can get involved
and actually make a difference,
to pick up their paper the next day and say,
you know what, we have forced their hands.
We've confronted them.
The Open Space Council has done it in the past.
The Pine Barren Society is doing it today with its lawsuit
and the Citizens Planning Board means to get results.
And so for those of us who have been in the past
merely frustrated by the unresponsiveness of government
with respect to environmental matters,
here's a real opportunity to change things in the 90s
the way we were so successful in changing them in the 60s.
Dick, what specifically happens on Monday?
On Monday, the Planning Board of Brookhaven
is darn near likely, if not certain,
to approve the biggest project that's ever become,
come in front of them or any other East End town.
And they'd like to do that.
A sprawling shopping center.
They'd like to do that behind closed doors.
And they would really like to have nobody comment,
nobody appear to have them,
when they're done their basic public meeting,
get together and say, we're in favor of this right,
approved, slap that rubber stamp down on the document
and let that project go forward.
I understand that two or three of the,
say seven or eight members on that Planning Board
are actually builders, real estate people themselves.
How does that work?
Well, you know, the thing about it is that's right.
Too often what has happened is
that this has become a little good old boys network
where the architects and the lawyers and the planners
and the builders get together
and they come to their friends.
They help their friends get into government.
They encourage them while they're in government.
They all do favors for one another.
And then when it comes time to an approval,
it's not an objective
or a legitimate professional process at all.
And so that's what's happened in Brookhaven.
We've got folks who are involved in real estate.
We've got folks who are involved in development themselves
or their families involved in building projects.
And as a result,
we don't really have fair-minded citizens passing judgment
on the social, the economic
and the environmental impacts of these projects.
So the government needs to hear from the public,
whether they're in Brookhaven town
or any place else in the tri-state area.
Well, Dick, speaking of fair-minded citizens,
how would you say this affects people
living outside of Long Island?
Because there are a lot of people listening tonight
in the Manhattan area.
Should they be concerned with this as well?
Well, it affects all of us.
It clearly affects all of us.
What has happened in the country as a whole
is that the areas with the greatest density,
with the greatest threat of overdevelopment,
the areas where the greatest economic incentives exist
are the ones that fall prey or fall victim
to environmental destruction
in the hands of selfish interests first.
So someplace rather, the battle line has to be drawn.
In addition, so many of the people who live in Manhattan,
proper and in the tri-state area generally,
people even as far away as the Midwest and the West Coast
flock to the East end of Long Island
because of what it represents.
We've got a harbor in New York.
We live on the coastline.
We go to the North and we find woodland and rivers,
all of them threatened by overdevelopment.
Out here, just 50 miles from New York City,
where many of us spend our summers
or where those of us who live on Long Island
spend our year-round,
we've got a greater diversity of plant and animal species,
as I said, than any other place in the state of New York.
That's where it is we appreciate.
That's where we go when we want to fish or swim or boat
or relax and commune with nature.
That's not gonna be available to us
if we don't draw the line and stand up and fight for it.
Well, we can't fight for it when it reaches Kansas City.
We've gotta cut this thing off at the pass.
When we get out to an area that is reached,
when we leave New York City
and we go North, South, East or West
and we see a series of concentric circles
that define the density and the destruction
that threatens our environment
and threatens our quality of life.
We see it happening that way.
We also see the basic rise of environmentalism
moving from East to West more generally.
So where are those who are concerned about the environment
to draw the line if it isn't at the farthest concentric circle
from the city where we still have
clean, pristine drinking water
and woods and beaches, sound bays and ocean beaches
that are clean and fresh?
Where are we gonna do it if we don't do it there?
And where are we gonna do it if we don't start
as far East as we can
before the country as a whole is devastated?
It seems like a shopping center that may affect a region,
but in fact, it is representative of a threat
to our environment that transcends even the tri-state area.
It affects everybody, Emmanuel.
Now, Nancy, you had a question, I believe.
Yeah, I have actually some comments also that-
Speak up.
You were talking earlier about global warming
and the rainforest and deforestation.
Well, this represents a stand of pygmy pitch pine trees
that are a very unique ecosystem.
I think the only other one like it is in New Jersey.
And this represents a group of trees
that are very tenacious trees
and they can only survive in the worst kinds of conditions.
So they're very special to this area.
And they're very, as far as the ecosystem itself
and to animals that live there
and to the condition of the soil and everything,
these trees are very, very important.
Also, I think to people in Manhattan and the other areas,
we have to understand that this mall has been designed
with kind of 1970 mentality planning.
It has 8,000 parking spaces.
That's a string of cars that would be 20 miles long.
This has no public transportation going to it,
no bicycle path designed around it.
It's going to create congestion.
I think one of the problems that we see
is that the Department of Transportation Studies,
both state and county have not been completed.
And they actually say that it's going to take
two to three years for them to finish their studies
about the congestion and the traffic
that will be caused by this mall out there.
And it seems now, today with global warming
as being a very, very real issue.
I just attended a symposium in New York City
where Dr. Hansen from the National Aeronautics
and Space Association spoke and also...
...planning and policy department spoke about global warming
and how carbon dioxide, which represents 57%
of the greenhouse gases and 13% of that is caused
by cars and deforestation, is really a major problem
and how other cities and localities are taking this
kind of a global warming and how it's affecting
cities and localities are taking this issue
very, very seriously and planning for the future
by cutting down on congestion, using public transportation,
planning their cities so that public transportation
is actually developed.
And I think the Citizens Planning Board,
because we do represent businesses in Patchogue
and Massachusetts and Shirley area,
would like to see the cities there
that are actually set up to deal with people already
and facilities that are there be developed in a way
that we can develop more public transportation to those areas
and make those areas more viable instead of creating this mall
that is just built specifically to draw more cars to the area.
So, again, what we do locally affects everyone globally.
And I think that the EPA, both the EPA and Dr. Hansen
stated that the problem is big enough
to bring together a coordinated society-wide effort
and that the federal government is taking global warming
so seriously that they are going to plant one billion trees.
This is George Bush actually saying that this is a problem
and his administration is backing this program
and we're going to pay $174 million
to plant a billion trees in the United States.
And here we are in Long Island cutting down 2,000 acres.
It just doesn't seem to make any more sense.
I'd like to turn back to Dan Morris
over at the Open Space Council.
We mentioned earlier how businesses in Patchogue,
Riverhead, other parts of Long Island
might be opposed to this mall.
If you could perhaps go into why that is
and what kind of opposition you've seen.
Well, we've had some tentative discussions
with the merchants in these areas
and they are hesitant or concerned.
They are concerned about the effect of this,
especially at the time of hard economic times
throughout Long Island and the region as it is.
The effect of the mall on the shopping areas
would be just like all of these areas
have been affected by the bypass roads
that were put up to ease traffic congestion
in the downtown areas
and they all sucked off the business
from the downtown areas.
Well, this mall is just gonna be the same sort of effect
only on a much larger scale.
We're talking about six major chain stores
moving into an area that has, as the study said,
there will be no competition.
They'll just blow it all away.
Are you familiar with the fight against the hypermarket
that took place a couple of years ago
for listeners who don't know what a hypermarket is?
It's this kind of huge store
that has everything you could possibly ever want
in this life and it's all in one particular area.
The store is incredibly big
and they wanted to build that
in a particular part of Long Island
and there was a lot of opposition.
It was kind of slow at first,
but then it really got organized
and a lot of people spoke out against it
and the company, which was from France, retreated,
but I understand they filed a lawsuit
because they claimed their rights were taken away.
That's right.
Now, do you think that's indicative
of a good track record for a Long Island environmentalist?
Do you think the same kind of response
is gonna happen here?
I would like to think it would.
It's a little different situation.
The hypermarket was going up in what was
a more developed area as it was.
However, it was a critical area
and we would like to see, we hope to see,
we'll see the growth of opposition to this mall.
One thing to understand is not just the mall
that is being built,
there are between 5,000 and 12,000 housing units
also going up in this area.
It's not just the mall,
that's kind of part of it.
I think it is difficult.
They're interactive with the other 20 parcels
that the developer owned.
Dick Gamper, can you explain the forms of terror
that big money and developers and people who own land
and feel that they have some kind of God-given
American constitutional right,
some guarantee to profit from that land?
And what happens when people try to stand in the way?
It is, it's a major distortion of manifest destiny.
We can all make investments in anything
and sometimes we make good investments,
sometimes we make bad ones.
Of those folks who invest in the defense industry,
when peace broke out, simply miscalculated
the social direction we were taking
and while nobody would wish them any ill luck,
they were not entitled to an automatic return
on investment.
And those who miscalculate the will of the public
to change our environmental direction
may lose a little bit on their economic investments.
I think you made a very, very good case, Emmanuel,
about the hypermarket advanced by Carrefour.
I think Dan Morris is looking in another direction.
He's saying, what's the difference between the two?
And the one is that Carrefour was a French-based corporation
that came into the South to talk at Pine Barrens,
a more developed area,
but one equally environmentally sensitive
and attempted to impose its will.
Well, it was fairly easy for the town fathers
that had not been influenced for many years
to resist that kind of project
because it was from an outsider.
But Mr. Bresland and those who he works with
have an inside track.
The environmentalists that he hired
to do his environmental impact study
were in fact employed by the very town
that this project is in front of today
in their environmental department,
reviewing other projects.
In fact, the three principal ones,
the commissioner and the two environmental assistants
most responsible for attempting to win approval
for the project for Mr. Bresland,
in fact, opposed a similar project
from another outside developer
for a much smaller mall several years ago
when Mr. Grant was proposing the Grant Park Mall.
So once again, we see this cozy relationship
between government and developers
and between developers and the political machinery
that makes the decisions.
That's gotta be wrong.
And at the same time,
the folks who are listening,
you gotta wonder, is this just another shopping center,
just another town hall gone mad?
I think Nancy reminded that of us
when she said, or reminded us of Rene Dubois,
famous quote,
we've got to think globally, but act locally.
Here's something we can do something about.
This is our Pine Barrens.
This is where rain collects to create our drinking water.
It is in effect, our very own rainforest,
and one that we can influence very directly
right within 50 miles of the center of Manhattan.
I think we have to look at it conceptually.
We see all the specific flaws with it,
but I think we have to see what it represents.
It took 20,000 years to create these woods
and the underground aquifers that Long Island depends on,
and we can destroy an acre of that land in two hours.
Now they're proposing to destroy as much as 2,000 acres
in one fell swoop.
There are 237 other projects behind it.
If we don't draw the line here,
we're just gonna look at more of the destruction
that depresses all of us
and which serves no one except developers with big bucks.
I think you touch upon a very good point there,
especially when you use the word destruction
instead of development.
That's something that I'd like to see a lot of people change
because there's nothing more contrary to me
than to witness the destruction of a complete forest
and have somebody go around saying,
hey, it's development, it's progress.
But Dick, speaking as a business executive,
and as Rich asked a couple of moments ago,
some people feel they have the right
to be able to exploit their land.
And out of the belief that it's almost impossible
to own land, we're pretty much entrusted with its care.
Do you agree with that?
I agree with it, and we have a solution to the problem.
We are not attempting to take anything from anybody.
Take the most conservative-minded businessman
you can think of.
He makes an investment.
He goes wrong in this matter.
And who bails him out?
It's the people who bail him out.
In the last two elections,
84% of the people who vote in Suffolk County
set aside a quarter of a penny in their sales tax money
to buy up land in one place and one place only,
over their drinking water in the Pine Barrens.
You can't buy it in Huntington.
You can't buy it in Nassau County.
You can only buy it in the Pine Barrens.
We're prepared to pay fair market value.
It's not the government or administration that's doing it.
It's the people of Long Island.
At a time when they can't afford the high taxes
that overdevelopment has caused,
still they've said, take a quarter of a penny for us,
I mean, from us, every time we make a purchase
and buy up land.
So these developers are not losing their shirts.
They're getting fair market value,
despite their indifference to our concern.
But how do they drive up the value of that land?
Well, they drive up the value of the land
in very odd sorts of ways.
They go to the town boards and the town planning boards
and they get permits to build on their land.
And so instead of our buying 200 raw Pine Barrens acres,
they say, I now have approval to build 525 condominiums.
So what you have to pay me now
is not what 200 acres of land cost,
but what my profit is on 525 condominiums.
It's a racket.
It's a plain and simple racket.
And apart from the man's selfish interest,
his right to develop in an entrepreneurial way,
which you might not even want to take exception to,
we're dealing with development that's occurring
at the expense of something as basic
as our right to drink pure, fresh drinking water.
And that's as wrong as it can be.
Now to get back to the demonstration
taking place on Saturday,
I'm gonna hand it over to Rich DiDonato,
a member of Citizens Planning Board out there.
Okay, we'll pitch that for a bit.
Yeah, if you can tell us when, where,
and perhaps give a few phone numbers as well
for folks interested in it.
At this point, I'd like to say that our phone lines
are also open for anyone who wants to call in
with questions or comments, 212-279-3400.
Great.
What might be interesting for the general public
is to come out.
One of the reasons we're having it on the site
is for people to come out
and actually see what's at stake here.
It really brings it home.
The demonstration this Saturday, October 13th at 12 noon
is on the site of the proposed monstrous development
over our aquifer in the middle of our pristine Pine Barrens.
Take exit 68 off the Long Island Expressway.
That's the William Floyd Parkway.
Go north on the William Floyd Parkway
just about half a mile and you'll be there.
You'll see us and the press will be there,
News 12 with their video cameras.
I just want to say to the general public
that I think it's really time for all environmentalists,
which I think the majority of the public
really are in their hearts.
I think it's the time for environmentalists
to come out of the closets
because over the last decade or so,
somehow, subtly but steadily,
the environmentalists has been put
in a very kind of suppressed position,
cast in the light of being un-American,
some kind of un-American misfit,
and anti-growth, anti-business,
anti-capitalism, shall we say.
As we all know, that's the farthest thing from the truth.
I feel that people who care about the environment
and their water and their air
are the real Americans.
They're the people that are really speaking up
about things that need to be protected
and are the most patriotic.
I think there's no need for environmentalists
to slink with some kind of an apologetic posture,
afraid to really stand up.
And as environmentalists, we should all be proud
and turn this thing around
because it's been turned around on us
in the last 10 or 15 years.
It's time to turn it around on them.
They have successfully
maneuvered themselves over us
in a position of power and intimidation
to have everyone thinking like,
well, am I doing the right thing?
Do I really have the right to stand up and say,
hey, please, don't do this to the air.
Don't do this to the water.
The self-doubt that this is something
that is the proper thing to do,
there should be no need for self-doubt.
If anything, the doubt has to be turned around
on those who are manipulating the public,
short-sighted, high-profit-minded.
The doubt has to be turned around 180 degrees
and put on them, what are you doing to our land?
What are you doing to our water?
Who gave you the right to do this?
In the longer term, I think that somehow
in this country, the concept of private ownership,
private ownership of land somehow has to be modified.
The world is getting too small
to have one man be responsible in his short lifetime.
This man who wants to destroy 2,000 acres of pine barrens,
I guarantee you, will not be alive in 20 years.
He's an aged man.
He eats ham and eggs for breakfast every morning.
I mean, there's no way this man's gonna exist
another 20 years.
But after he's gone, our drinking water
is spoiled indefinitely, forever.
This kind of mentality cannot be accepted
by the public, by the citizens anymore.
Well, I think that might be a very good question
to ask the public who presumably are out there listening.
How do you feel about standing up and saying enough?
Do you feel comfortable going to a town planning board
or going to an environmental demonstration?
Do you think the time is right to do that kind of thing?
Absolutely, but I must say that the old style
in which it's done, was done,
with civil disobedience and rudeness and all that is out.
Gotta meet them on their own turf, in their own style,
with sophistication, demeanor,
and politeness, if you will,
but strong determination and strong conviction
and not be backed down by them
because they have all kinds of methods
of shutting you right down.
Oh, we're not hearing any more testimony today.
Now, we're not of the nature
to chain ourselves to the chairs.
That's not the way that the change
is really gonna be made these days,
but the way change is really gonna be made
is for people to just stand up and be kind and come out.
Now, on the 13th, Saturday, October 13th,
we have the demonstration onsite at 12 noon,
exit 68, Long Island Expressway,
north on William Floyd, one half mile,
and you'll be there.
Then, two days later, and actually more important,
in the afternoon on the 15th, Monday the 15th,
at the Brookhaven Town offices themselves,
you can actually come down
and see the Brookhaven Town Planning Board
in action, in person.
It's a sight to behold.
I wouldn't miss it for the world.
And that can be reached by taking exit 64
off the Long Island Expressway,
going north a couple of miles to 3233,
Route 112 in Medford.
It's on the right.
It's a complex.
It looks kind of like a professional buildings,
a dentist officer type thing,
but it's all the Brookhaven Town offices,
and our people will direct you to the auditorium.
What they're gonna do is try to quietly rubber stamp
the final approval of this monster as quietly as possible,
and it will take place sometime after 1.30 in the afternoon,
sometime probably between 1.30 and six.
You know, that's another way.
They wear the public down.
How many people are able to go out
in the middle of Monday afternoon,
leave their jobs, leave their kids, whatever,
and go and stand in some hearing room
and wait for hours for it to come up on the docket?
That's exactly what my question was gonna be.
Who makes up these times?
Monday at 1.30 p.m., I can't imagine
how many working people can go to a hearing at that time.
That's part of the mentality of the whole thing.
It's part of their strategy.
Who gives them the right to make that decision?
They don't listen to public will
or public opinion on these things.
They do what they damn well please.
Well, I mean, there should be a way
for them to have to listen to that, is my point.
Enough heat and enough publicity
and enough embarrassment is brought upon them.
Their ways will change eventually.
I think Richard is absolutely right.
He said you have to drive up Route 112
north of the expressway and you'll see
what looks like a professional complex.
It looks like a professional complex,
but there's nothing professional about it.
They ignore their professional planning staff
and they create their own political agenda.
They do try to make citizens, first of all,
distant from the process by holding meetings
at a time when they know it's difficult for citizen input.
Once they've done that, in this particular project,
they have repeatedly failed to provide
even basic public notice for meetings.
And one or two occasions have violated
the public meetings law by holding meetings
that were not announced and that were therefore
not legally conducted, had to go recreate them.
It's like the Wild East, if you would, out here.
And the thing that bothers them,
the only thing that bothers them is exposure,
where citizens come out and say,
wait a minute, you got this thing all wrong.
Don't make us say, please don't do this.
You work for us, we're paying your salary.
Here is what it is that needs to be done
and this is how you need to go about doing it.
We need to make our government more responsive to us.
They've not done that.
You go to these meetings and if you succeed
in making a point, and I agree with Richard,
it's not civil disobedience that works anymore,
it's simply winning the day.
And we win the day with arguments
that are more right than theirs.
And they are thus embarrassed in public
and they are exposed for the self-serving folks
that they frequently are.
And you simply go out and explain to them what's going on.
When they say that you are out of order,
you say no, you're out of order and you're out of touch.
The citizens need to run their government.
It remains a government of, by, and for the people.
And this project is not a people's project
in any way, shape, or form.
Soon as we do that, there is an immediate discomfort.
You can see it, it is fun.
With all of the effort required
to get out to a meeting on Monday,
Richard is right, you have to go out and see it
because the scraping of chairs
and the clearing of throats and the discomfort
on the part of these people when caught at their own game
proves the day and frequently wins
both of the case of the Long Island Pine Barren Society
and the lawsuit in court,
but more importantly in the court of public opinion
where 84% of the public says,
we're gonna go out and do something about this.
We're gonna go out and vote the money
to acquire these lands.
We're not gonna build projects like this.
But it takes citizens to take time out
of our routine that we get in
and not by the notion that we can't fight city
or in this case, town hall.
Yes, we can and we must.
And when we do it, we prevail.
To the average person, Emmanuel,
the average housewife and husband are so run ragged
by the economy today, just trying to keep
the mortgage paid up and the kids' clothes on the kids.
They're so exhausted.
They're beat into submission and apathy.
They, in their hearts,
they would like to do something about it,
but they just can't.
They just don't even have the time or physical strength.
And this is exactly what this type of government
and this type of system relies on.
They know that people don't have the time,
the focus, the energy to really keep an eye on them.
All right, I wanna again give out the phone number.
It's 212-279-3400.
And we do have open lines.
So give a call.
Is environmental activism our future?
Is it dying?
Is it succeeding?
Have you been a part of it in the past?
Let us know.
Give us a call now.
And we're going to go to the phones in just a minute.
What's the number of the Citizens Planning Board
for the demonstration?
If you could give out that phone number,
that'd be very helpful.
And then we'll go to the phones.
If you have an interest in the eastern part of Long Island,
no matter where you are,
because it's a reflection of where you live,
I guarantee you.
It stands for the same principles,
the same kind of environment that you hold near and dear
wherever your community is.
That's clean water and open spaces.
Join us Saturday the 13th out at the site.
Exit 68 north, a half mile on William Floyd.
Then join us on Monday the 15th
at the Brookhaven Town Planning Board,
Route 112, Medford, Long Island.
That's exit 64 off the expressway,
north a bit to 3233, Route 112.
On the right is the Brookhaven Town offices.
Anytime after 1.30 in the afternoon.
And you can reach the Citizens Planning Board
at area code 516-928-6391.
That's 516-928-6391.
Or area code 516-473-1039.
Area code 516-473-1039.
That's the Citizens Planning Board.
And I think it's important to stress
that numbers mean a lot.
If there's a lot of people out there
on Saturday afternoon protesting the development,
I'm sorry, I did it myself,
destruction of the Pine Barrens
and the open space on Long Island,
a large attendance will make a difference.
After all, it was a lot of people organizing,
demonstrating that managed to get
the shore of nuclear plant closed,
that managed to preserve the area for this long.
By the way, Emmanuel, this particular developer says
the best way to improve the Pine Barrens,
improve the Pine Barrens that have been there
for 20,000 years, is to do exactly what he's doing,
to pave over them and to put in parking for 8,000 cars.
We know that the Pine Barrens have been a source
of constant trouble ever since
they were first invented, right?
What was the quote of the head of the Planning Board?
It's amazing, he suggested that
because it's a fire-dependent ecosystem,
that is that we routinely have wildfires
that help perpetuate the oak and the scrub oak
and the pitch pine species,
he said that we could reduce fire a lot
by paving over, much in the way they said
during the Vietnam War,
that we might have to destroy it to save it.
I mean, this is the kind of thinking
that we're still dealing with here.
And I agree with you, Emmanuel,
that when you turn out large numbers of people
that show their concerns,
others take heart, moreover,
and you begin to retake control of your government,
that's clearly what's necessary here.
Well, the comments would be funny
if these people weren't so powerful
and almost assured of having their way.
We're gonna go to the phones now.
I wanna remind people who call in,
we do have four people already on the phone line,
so you'll have to speak up a little bit
and ask your question, make your comment,
and no speeches.
We don't really have time for any speeches.
279-3400 is our phone number, area code 212.
Good morning.
Yes, I have a question about what the guy said before
about the pine barrens.
Fuck, shit, fuck!
Okay, slight problem there with the connection.
Good morning.
Yes, I'm in favor of what you're trying to do
to keep the pine barrens.
I love pine barrens.
I used to go to Kensico Reservoir
and they had a beautiful stand of pines
that I walked through.
It's like the forest primeval.
So in a kind of poetic, nature-loving way, I love them.
But when you start to harp on the fact
that the meeting starts at 1.30,
I mean, it sounds like it's terrible,
but if it'll start, then it'll go to two to three to four,
five, and then a break for supper,
and then on and on, maybe.
So I'm a little surprised that some of your thinking
is like demeans your intention
and that just as they're bureaucrats,
you're doing it because if the water is impure,
even if the stand of pine is maintained,
the flow of the water table
from adjoining chemical plants and so on
and garbage disposal could be polluting the water.
So it's not just the stand or the pines
that are endangering us, if they were cut.
There's all the other aspects of that.
So what about children?
What about all the kids in school?
If it was brought to their attention,
it's the world that they'll be inheriting.
Of course, these developers don't care about that.
All they care about is a fast turnover.
I don't quite follow your reasoning
about what we were saying about being 1.30 in the afternoon.
It starts at 1.30.
The Brookhaven Town Planning Board convenes at 1.30
and goes for a number of hours.
They don't let you know until that afternoon
what time and what placement on the docket
this particular project is going to...
what time it's going to come up.
You have to have the staying power
and just be able to get out there to the meeting
and hold out and wait until it comes up.
And so I don't follow your reasoning.
What are you saying?
Well, he's not with us anymore,
but I think what he was trying to say
was that perhaps complaining about the time
takes away from the issue.
I'm not sure if that's exactly what he meant.
I think that's right.
And I think it's even more important than that,
what I think he's arguing, and I think it's correct,
is that we cannot simply cave in to these devices
that are established by government to thwart our will.
I think if we get a good group of people out there at 1.30,
rather than to wait for the item to appear
conventionally or conveniently on an agenda
or later behind closed doors,
I think what he's arguing is that it is important enough
to the people to come...
that if it's important enough for the people to come out,
it's important enough for our government officials
to listen to us when we're ready to talk about it.
When we arrive at 1.30, I think we need to say
the public must be heard at this time,
and the routine business,
the business that they'd like to conduct
in the way that they would like to conduct it,
has to take a back seat to the will of the public.
I think it's a good point,
and I think it's one we have to keep in mind.
They do have a lot of intimidating mechanisms,
and I think it's very important
that we need to come out here and say,
we're here because the most important project
ever to come before you is here.
We have taken the time.
We think it's important enough to make these points,
and you will hear us now.
Emanuel, are you aware that this is the largest
proposed single building project
in New York state history?
Oh, that's one of the reasons we're on tonight,
to hopefully get that through to people.
Let's go to another phone call.
Good evening.
Good morning.
Good morning, rather.
Oh, good morning, it is.
A couple of points, please.
First of all, the timing that this is happening
is because the folks who are holding the meeting
are bureaucrats, and they are employed to hold meetings,
and it's their job during the day.
That's why it's during the day, unfortunately.
It doesn't really help for everyone else
who has a job who doesn't happen to be a bureaucrat.
Well, I know there have been meetings in the evenings,
because I've gone to some of them,
and they do have meetings in the evenings
when there's large turnouts.
Yes, I've been to evening meetings,
and they usually have much better turnouts,
and they're much more interesting.
Right.
Also-
Do you have a question or a comment?
Oh, yeah, two more points, really, please.
The other is this, the dimension of the project,
the size of it, it really shows the difficulties
that we've been having over time in our zoning policy.
Absolutely.
It leads to large tracts of single types of zoning,
like malls, or you have residential,
or you have office buildings.
They're all separate, and they're all miles and miles apart,
and you have to do a lot of traveling
on the Long Island Expressway to get there, or whatever,
and it leads to a lot of traffic, a lot of driving,
a lot of pollution, and it makes it really hard
to walk, bike, or take mass transit,
because everything's so dispersed.
Very good.
You know, and what we really need-
There's no master plan.
...is to integrate our land use.
First of all, to integrate land use
with commercial, residential, and shopping,
but also to integrate the planning
with transportation planning,
and not just do them all over the place.
That's point number two.
Point number three is, I was wondering,
what is the closest bus line or train line
to the demonstration and to the hearing?
Well, now, that's a good question, and I think-
Absolutely.
It's not an easy process.
No.
I mean, mass transit in this country is very difficult
because they spend all the money on the LIE,
along with these considerations,
but the way to do that would be to find your way
to Penn Station and take the Long Island Railroad
to Ronkonkoma.
Now, I say this merely to dramatize
what our caller has already suggested is a problem.
Ronkonkoma is still 15 miles from the site,
but it is the closest direct train
or public transportation link.
In fact, the State Department of Transportation
has been excoriating this project
just because there's no way to get there
by public transportation,
and the volume of passenger car transportation
that would be generated by the creation
of the first phase of this mall,
the State Transportation Department thinks
would take two or three years to sort out,
and still, we could be less than a week away
from approval of the project.
Now, that really is the ultimate indictment
of the planning process.
Our caller was complaining about, Emanuel?
Yeah, we're gonna take one more, go ahead.
If people will call 516-473-1039
and say they wanna come out on the Long Island Railroad
to Ronkonkoma Saturday morning,
and arrive sometime around 11 o'clock, 11, 1130,
we will have a car there to bring anyone
who shows up for the demonstration to the site.
I think if they have the determination
to show the interest to take a train
from Penn Station to Ronkonkoma,
the end of the Ronkonkoma line,
we should pick them up and take them to the site.
I wanna tell you, Emanuel,
the last train to Willy World leaves Penn Station
on Saturday morning at 10.15 from Penn Station,
and will arrive at Ronkonkoma at 11.31,
just in time to tell them what we think of them.
Thank you, Dick.
Okay, and again, we wanna give that phone number
one more time if people are interested in going.
Have them call 516-473-1039,
516-473-1039, go to Penn Station,
take the Ronkonkoma line on the Long Island Railroad.
Is that the last stop, Dick?
If I'll let you get on at 10.15, you get off at 11.31,
and not only do you get a demonstration,
but you get to see, as Richard said earlier,
exactly what we're fighting for.
It'll be a lovely day in the country.
You'll see Long Island as it has been for all eternity,
and in a way, we can continue to keep it
if we're able to stop this project.
Anyone who comes out on that train,
what time does it leave Penn Station, Dick?
Leaves at 10.15, they'll be out there at 11.30.
Leaves Penn Station at 10.15.
Anyone who comes out, we will give you a tour
of this beautiful, beautiful area.
We have naturalists who can point out the flora and fauna,
and you'll have a wonderful afternoon.
We'll get you some food, we'll feed you,
we'll get you back to the train station.
You'll have a wonderful afternoon.
Okay.
We are here at WBAI in New York.
We've been talking with four environmentalist leaders,
Dick Amper of the Pine Barren Society,
Dan Morris of the Open Space Council,
Nancy Oku and Rich DiDonato,
both of the Citizens Planning Board.
We've been talking about saving the open space
of Long Island, saving the Pine Barrens
and preventing what could be, I believe,
Long Island's biggest shopping mall
from being constructed right on top of this area.
And I'll give one last chance for you folks
to give out phone numbers
and whatever else you want to give out.
We'd be happy for everybody to call
the Long Island Pine Barren Society
for any information on protecting the Pine Barrens
or the entire ecosystem that our caller
that was interrupted earlier
was concerned about preserving,
not just a few pine trees,
but all of Eastern Long Island.
Don't hesitate to contact us at 516-929-6660
or write us if you prefer.
We're available at post office box of 429.
That's in Manorville, Manorville, New York.
The zip code is 11949.
Richard.
Right, Dick.
The Citizens Planning Board,
who's having, I'll quickly tell you
about the demonstration again.
Saturday afternoon on the site out there
at the gateway to the Pine Barrens,
October 13th, Saturday afternoon, starting at 12.
If you want to take the Long Island Railroad
from Penn Station, take the Ronkonkoma Line,
leaves at 1015 in the morning,
gets you out there around 1130,
we'll pick you up, we'll feed you,
we'll give you a tour of the Pine Barrens.
You'll have a great day out in the country
and get you back to the train.
That's, if you're going to drive, you have to-
Rich, we're out of time,
so just give the phone number and-
516-473-1039, 516-473-109.
Maybe Dan Morris would like to give the number
of the Open Space Council.
Open Space Council, 758-5915.
That's area code 516.
Okay, and thanks very much to everybody for being here.
Thanks, Nancy Oku, for being there as well.
And hopefully we'll see a lot of people out on Long Island.
Exit 68 of the expressway this Saturday at 12 noon.
We'll let you know how it goes.
This is Emmanuel Goldstein,
filling in for Andrew Phillips on Investigations.
Stay tuned for Bob Fasts.
Good night.
♪ Look for the meadow and savor the grass while it lasts ♪
♪ By and by, spidery fingers of the industry reach the sky ♪
♪ Brick upon brick, stone upon stone they grow ♪
♪ Choking the atmosphere oh so incredibly slowly ♪
♪ Sulfur and carbon and hydrogen sulfide and lime ♪
♪ Favor corrosion and cover your cities with grime ♪
♪ Something is killing the land before your eyes ♪
♪ And the sunshine is not to blame ♪
♪ Could be the insane inhumane games we play day by day ♪
♪ Ripper and fool, mushrooming home in a crowd I'm alone ♪
♪ Ripper and fool, mushrooming home in a crowd I'm alone ♪
♪ Close your eyes, lie still, you are a mountain stream and I am a hill ♪
♪ Far, far away, there is a field of blossom, bees and new-mown hay ♪
♪ Breathe in the air, breathe in the air ♪
♪ Breathe in the air, breathe in the air ♪
This is WBAI in New York City.
Save the pine barons and...
down with the robber barons.
you