following a report of a family argument initially police said mary mitchell struck officer herworth with a nightstick and threatened him with a knife but later police commissioner lee brown said there was no evidence to support that claim
herworth shot mitchell fatally in the chest in announcing the indictment today the bronx district attorney's office called the shooting unjustified but some are calling it murder roger wareham is director of the medgar evers center for law and social justice the fact that they brought a manslaughter to indictment uh is really an insult to people's intelligence that and it's an insult to the black community and it's a comment on the district attorney's
view of the importance of black life which is ironic since the bronx district attorney is black you're saying you think that if mary mitchell had been white that there could be a murderer indictment um i think that had mary mitchell been white she would still be alive uh certainly had mary mitchell been white uh and had all police officers been black so let's say we reverse the situation there would be a there would have been an indictment but had she been
white i don't think she would have been shot in the first place officer herworth was released on his own recognizance today after the da's unsuccessful request that bail be set at twenty five thousand dollars if convicted of the manslaughter charge he would face a maximum sentence of five to fifteen years in jail but wareham says the indictment is more an attempt to appease the community than to serve justice he says if johnson had wanted a murder indictment he could have gotten it
but the grand jury is basically an instrument of the prosecutor and that a prosecutor could get a grand jury to indict a ham sandwich if he so wished and so the fact that this grand jury came down with a manslaughter two indictment
in my view is a reflection of what it was the district attorney wanted because the grand jury basically functions on the information that's presented to it by the district attorney there's enough evidence i believe to warrant a higher degree uh of felony indictment and that the district attorney needs to go back to the grand jury and present that whether that will happen whereham says depends on how hard the district attorney is pushed by public
i'm julie kellen death destruction and tragedy could well be the outcome of a city decision to save money this according to the firefighters union they say a little girl may have died unnecessarily just last night in a fire this morning the fire union denounced the city's budget cutters for putting dollars before lives nina biddle reports city hall has abrogated its public safety obligation according to james boyle president of the uniformed firefighters association or
ufa at a press conference this morning boyle and others stressed the need for awareness of the process of decimation that is taking place within the city's fire service while the city has just ended its deadliest year in fire related deaths
engine company 17 has been protecting the lower east side for 125 years located on pitt street at delancey it is the first of several companies to be cut this year
ufa spokesperson michael carter explains what the cuts will mean almost all the firehouses in manhattan are
what we call double houses where you have an engine and a ladder company uh in one station they respond in
tandem and when they get to the scene of a fire basically the engine company stretches hose line the
ladder company begins rescue operations uh the situation we're going to be faced with uh on pit street is a ladder
the ladder company now is going to be going out by itself uh when they have a fire that is going to
require rescue uh in the past they've had an engine company there to basically position a line between
the fire and the victim uh the ladder company now that's on pit street doesn't have that option anymore
and uh what we feel is the firefighters there are going to be gambling uh with the fire and it's certainly
going to lead to tragedy the city says other companies will fill the void left by closing
engine company 17 but carter is skeptical the hose is going to have to come from neighboring companies
uh the department basically justifies this by uh coming up with a model uh and they they basically
crunch numbers and they determine what they think the the time delay is going to be i just want to
point out that their numbers in my opinion are not realistic and that uh they're basically done at
night when there's no traffic and as we all know traffic in new york city is getting worse certainly
not better last night may have provided just the tragic example firefighters are dreading a fire broke
out in an apartment in harlem killing one girl and leaving her grandmother in serious condition while
their local engine company engine company 47 located two blocks away was in the bronx helping another
company again ufa spokesperson michael carter whenever you take a company out of its response pattern
uh now you're relying on the the outlying companies making it in there what you had last night was 47
engine was relocated to the bronx that left a gap in fire protection now when the alarm came in in my
my opinion i've looked at the times you had at least a minute more uh that before our presence was felt at
that fire now the victims uh the three-year-old and her grandmother were both found unconscious one was
resuscitated one wasn't what that means to me is that these people were teetering on the verge of life and death
i say 30 seconds to a minute would absolutely have made a difference in this point the firefighters union is
worried that if such an incident can occur while an engine company is away from its post for two and a half hours
hours what will happen when that company no longer exists other companies being closed today are the
marine company two based on the hudson river at the foot of bloomfield street in manhattan and engine
company 294 in richmond hill queens they are the first to be disbanded since engine company 232 in brooklyn
was shut down in january of 1988 the city currently has about 250 fire companies six more companies are
targeted for closure later this year with the possibility of the elimination of another 40 or so
in 1992 the union also says firefighting has become more difficult in the past year with the reduction
from five to four firefighters in all fire trucks ufa spokesperson carter says overall morale among
firefighters is extremely low right now basically the city administration has sent the message to
firefighters that fire protection that fire protection is not a priority in this city the
firefighters kind of look themselves in the mirror in the morning and say hey if they don't care why
should i care the mayor's office referred all calls to the city fire department which did not return
repeated wbai calls the uniformed firefighters association plans to continue protesting as other companies are
cut while the city claims it saves about one million dollars per year per company the ufa says
the preservation of life is government's responsibility and that everything else including bond ratings must
come second for wbai news i'm nina biddle and finally from washington the only socialist in congress
spent much of his first day on the job conferring with liberal lawmakers on how to keep the united
states from going to war with iraq representative bernard saunders who ran as an independent in winning
vermont's only house seat missed most of the reception held in his tiny office after he was sworn into the
102nd congress he left the celebration to confer with democrats on ways to avert a u.s offensive against
iraqi forces saunders who was born in brooklyn worked as a carpenter and documentary filmmaker before
serving eight years as mayor of burlington vermont the self-proclaimed socialist was rejected for
membership in the democratic caucus but democratic leaders have assured saunders he will be treated
fairly when committee assignments are made and that's some of the news for thursday january 3rd 1991
the news was engineered by anthony sloan it was produced with nina biddle julie cohen amy goodman and alan
lippke i'm jenny born in new york with don rush in washington for the wbai listener-sponsored news
and this is wbai in new york stay tuned for a special wartime edition of investigations
let's you and i resolve now that we will persevere in this effort until every american soldier
is home from the persian gulf
on sunday january 13th at 6 p.m wbai will broadcast a live teaching sponsored by the campaign for peace in
the middle east on saturday january 19th we will join thousands of people from across the country in
washington dc as they march to the white house to show their opposition to war in the gulf our live
coverage begins at 12 noon then on saturday january 26 pacifica radio will go to the nation's capital
yet again and cover another anti-war march and rally tune in to wbai 99.5 fm for the latest on the crisis
and the growing national opposition to the u.s presence in the gulf wbai pacifica radio committed
to peace for 30 years
and may we live to see 31 good evening this is emmanuel goldstein filling in for andrew phillips and
this is investigations and we're going to be doing a little bit of investigating tonight um and also
receiving feedback as we always do from our listeners on what could be an upcoming catastrophe
and i'm sure you all know what we're referring to that's uh it's now being called in circles
war day tuesday january 15th 1991 not the day that everybody expects uh expects a war to start but
the day when everybody uh knows that a certain deadline will be passed and lots of stubborn
people will uh will resolutely proclaim various things and god only knows what we're going to get
ourselves involved in we're going to try and speak with the actual soldiers over there and i say try
because it's not easy uh we've managed to obtain a phone number but uh no guarantees there and we're
going to uh look at just where all of this is going to be leading us some interesting things you know
this is the first um potential war that we've had an advance promotion for you know we we have a date
for this war this one's going to start on a certain day and all the networks are getting their acts
together we know january 15th is the time that we all have to be ready i mean vietnam wasn't that
courteous we didn't we didn't know exactly when things were going to happen and of course we don't
know exactly when things are going to happen here but uh it seems to be a a bit of a show a bit of a show
for a lot of people uh folks war is not entertainment war is sudden horror
so
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
No, we certainly cannot write off his final scene, or anyone else's final scene for that matter.
All the people that have died in the past for ridiculous reasons, reasons that we don't even remember anymore.
Oh, sure, there are just causes to fight and die for, but you have to think about it very carefully.
You know, life is kind of an important thing to gamble with, and we have 500,000 lives over there.
You know, I like to think of them this way, but I like to draw this analogy.
You talk about hostages.
Well, how do you think you would feel being a member of the armed forces stationed over there in the desert
and saying to yourself, you know, I've had just about enough of this.
We haven't even started shooting at each other yet, and already I'm miserable.
I just want to come home and be with my family and loved ones and relax in our safe suburban homes.
Well, you can't do that. You can't do that when you're in the armed forces.
You are, for all intents and purposes, a hostage.
A hostage by your own actions, but a hostage all the same.
And I know a lot of these people that are over there now never thought, never in their wildest dreams,
and despite words coming out over airwaves here at BAI, never actually thought it could happen to them.
Well, it's happened to a lot of people just like you and me.
People who never thought they would be thrown into the middle of a war.
There's no war yet, but to hear all the stubborn leaders of various countries, particularly this one,
to hear them speak, you would think that it's a foregone conclusion.
Editorial in the New York Times today.
Where is Congress on the Gulf?
Interesting points raised.
Will Congress debate, and actually I guess I should say yesterday's Times, as it's just become Friday.
Will Congress debate and vote on President Bush's war policy in the Persian Gulf?
Will Mr. Bush ask it too?
These questions belong at the top of the agenda when Congressional leaders meet with the President.
On Thursday, actually, that occurred.
Until now, the Congress has shirked its constitutional duty to debate a declaration of war.
This week, some members intend to introduce a resolution to allow six months more for economic sanctions on Iraq and diplomacy to work.
But Congressional leaders want to dodge the issue by putting off a vote.
And that's unconscionable.
While hundreds of thousands of young Americans gird for battle in the deserts of Arabia,
their elected representatives can't summon up the courage to confront their responsibilities at home.
I mean, perhaps they're scared of being thought of as unpatriotic or going against the President.
Well, dammit, that's not only our right, it's our obligation if we feel that in our hearts.
Continuing with the editorial,
the leaders' reason for their silence won't wash.
That a debate could be divisive, easing the pressure on Saddam Hussein.
Debate is not divisive unless the policy being debated is.
Better to know that now, before Americans are called upon to die for it.
That Mr. Bush's brinkmanship is debatable is no secret.
Debate over the wisdom of war is raging everywhere in America,
except where it's supposed to, in Congress.
During Vietnam, when presidents took it upon themselves to wage war,
Congress thought it necessary to enact the War Powers Act,
really a war responsibility act,
forcing the President and Congress
to face up to a war decision in full public view.
But Mr. Bush shied away from invoking the act,
asserting that U.S. troops are in no imminent danger of hostilities.
All those Iraqi troops over there in Kuwait,
their chemical weapons,
pay them no mind.
Closing its eyes,
Congress accepted his claim,
then left town,
just as he put aside Desert Shield
and picked up Desert Sword.
Now Congress is back,
but its leaders still duck a debate.
Take Lee Hamilton,
chairman of the House Foreign Affairs Committee, for example.
In one breath,
he cogently argues against a war anytime soon.
He says,
so long as there is a reasonable opportunity
that the present strategy of the threat
of the use of force,
the economic sanctions and the diplomatic activity,
will get Saddam Hussein out of Kuwait,
then I think you ought to stick with it
and not go to war.
Rather a long way of saying
that we should stick with the sanctions.
Well, in the next breath,
he opposes a vote now
to stay Mr. Bush's hand,
saying,
I think the name of the game at the moment
is to ratchet up the pressure on Saddam Hussein
in every way that we can.
You do not want to put a resolution
or a declaration
on the floor of the House or the Senate
because that will send a signal of divisiveness.
Oh boy,
the number of times I have heard that argument.
First of all,
first of all,
Mr. Hamilton
and all those others out there,
do you think Saddam Hussein is capable
of picking up a copy of the New York Times,
getting a copy over there,
you know, in Baghdad?
I'm sure they've got the same little blue machines
on the street there.
And he can read this editorial
and he can see that
since we're debating whether or not to debate,
that therefore it must be a divisive issue.
So if we debate or not debate,
it's kind of a relative issue at this point
because he already knows
that we're debating whether or not to debate.
So obviously we are not all of one mind
and anyone who has any understanding
of this country knows
that we don't often think alike.
There's always divisiveness.
It's healthy to discuss these things.
And isn't that what we're supposed to be fighting for?
The fact that we're allowed to do this,
that we're allowed to express ourselves
and debate things,
debate important things,
not just trivial things.
Out to lunch, these folks are sometimes.
Anyway, getting back to the editorial.
By this tortured logic,
the need to maintain a credible threat of war
would mean that the time will never come
for Congress to vote.
The leadership's position would be more understandable
if there had been a behind-the-scenes deal.
The rumor around Washington was that
in return for unfettered authority to threaten war,
Mr. Bush had pledged not to wage war
without Congressional approval.
Last weekend,
the House Armed Services Committee Chairman
Les Aspin scotched that talk.
The administration has not in any time
any forum ever committed to that.
A deferred debate on a declaration of war
invites divisiveness at the worst possible time,
after Mr. Bush takes the country to war.
Mr. Bush's brinkmanship is running out of time
to show results if Congress prefers sanctions
and diplomacy to an early war.
Why not vote to give them a reasonable chance to work?
Maybe we can put a little addendum in there saying,
George Bush, we believe that you're as masculine
as you can possibly be at your age
and you're not a wimp,
not a wimp at all,
you're a strong-willed guy.
I think that's what this is all about, really.
I've never seen somebody have so many ultimatums.
I'm not saying that what Saddam Hussein's doing over there is right,
but why is it?
Why is it that this has turned into a
George Bush versus Saddam Hussein kind of a thing?
It doesn't make sense to me.
I mean, they invaded another country.
It's not our country, or maybe it is our country.
You know, maybe we own Kuwait.
It sure seems like we own Kuwait the way we're acting.
I'd also like answers to a couple other questions
while I'm on the subject here.
Sanctions, for instance.
We're all big on sanctions all of a sudden.
Why is it sanctions could never work in South Africa?
Why is it that we never wanted to
quote-unquote hurt the people
that we were trying to help?
You know?
But all of a sudden, when Iraq invades Kuwait,
well, you've got to use sanctions.
But what about the people there?
Do we care about the people there?
And another question I might as well ask
while I'm rolling here.
What about other countries, huh?
What about other countries like Tibet?
Oh, that's not a country anymore.
Right, it was taken over by the Chinese.
Well, we don't really care about the Tibetans, do we?
Or the Namibians?
Or any one of a whole host of other countries
where these things happen.
If we know how to stick our noses out of something,
I don't understand why we stick our noses
into something like this.
It's not about democracy.
It's about oil.
And I'd really like to know if there's anyone out there
that doesn't believe that.
The question, I guess, is
is oil worth fighting and dying for?
And another question, perhaps, is
have our armed forces
become nothing more than
a traveling band of mercenaries
looking to extinguish flames
of various sorts
wherever they wind up going?
Don't start the talking
I could talk all night
My mind goes sweep-walking
While I'm putting nowhere to write
Calcary is information
Have you got yourself an occupation?
All of us always seem to stay
All of us always are on their way
And I would rather be anywhere else
But it's a day
There was a check for Charlotte
It didn't crack a smile
But it's no laughing party
When you've been on the murder mile
Only takes one inch a trigger
One more widow
One less white nigger
All of us always seem to stay
All of us always are on their way
And I would rather be anywhere else
But it's a day
Hong Kong is up for grabs
London is full of apps
We could be in Palestine
Over and by the Chinese land
With the fires from the Mersey
And the towns and the town
But there's no danger
It's a professional career
Though it could be arranged
With just a word in this
The church is here
If you're out of luck
Or out of work
We could send you to Jim Harris Bank
We could send you to Jim Harris Bank
All of us always seem to stay
All of us always are on their way
And I would rather be anywhere else
By today
And I would rather be anywhere else
By today
Oh ho ho ho ho ho
Oh ho ho ho ho ho ho oh
today
That's Elvis Costello
from the Armed Forces record.
What a magnificent record that is.
If you want to get it, get the English version,
not the American version.
It's got a better mix of songs,
I think.
And on top of the program
we heard from Pink Floyd with
The Hero's Return and The Gunner's Dream
off a very fine
album called The Final Cut.
And it keeps
going on, folks. It just keeps going on.
You know, World War
I, I can't say I remember World War I, but
I've read about it.
And it started over
a most ridiculous
premise.
And
it just got worse and worse
and worse. And of course, World War I
led us into World War II, which was
probably
the biggest disaster
ever
that mankind was
responsible for.
Right now, the whole situation
over in the Persian Gulf
looks kind of silly, you know.
You've got Saddam Hussein
strutting his stuff,
you know,
people prancing around
invading other countries
and not having much support
at all from the rest of the world.
I mean, all the superpowers
are
against him.
Most of the
other countries of the world
are against him.
So how can he possibly succeed?
Well, he has a
very formidable
military presence.
And
we've had our hand
in building that up.
We've had our hand
in providing
Saddam with much
of his
know-how,
much of his
equipment.
And the Soviets
have as well.
And
I'm sure
many other countries.
So
he has
the ability
to start something
that can get
very, very nasty.
And who knows
what will happen
as
people start dying,
as bombs
start going off,
as cities
start being destroyed.
as we see the effects
of chemical warfare,
something that we've
never really seen before.
We chose to ignore it
when it was going on
only a couple of years ago.
It didn't involve
American lives.
It wasn't important.
The madness
intensifies.
NATO
announced
on January 2nd
that it would send
three squadrons
of German,
Italian,
and Belgian
jet fighters
to Turkey
to strengthen
its border
with Iraq
in case a war
breaks out.
Just in case.
The move was
strenuously endorsed
by the United States.
The action
was significant
for Germany
because what was
West Germany
has never
before deployed
military forces
outside its borders
and had not
sent any forces
to the Persian Gulf
because of
constitutional
restrictions
against its
military forces
being sent
outside the
NATO area.
Wow,
it's a brand new
beginning.
The deployment
of a squadron
of 18 Alpha jets
was justified
by the government
of Chancellor Helmut Kohl
because Turkey
is a member
of the North Atlantic
Treaty Organization
and Germany
is obliged to come
to its defense
as are
all other NATO members.
The opposition
Social Democrats
have threatened
to try to block
the move
within Parliament
saying it violates
the Constitution.
Except for the
participation
of East German troops
in the invasion
of Czechoslovakia
in the summer
of 1968,
no German forces
have been involved
in military action
outside German borders
since World War II.
The East German
Army
has been
disbanded
as part of
the unification
process
and has been
absorbed
by the former
West German Army.
The military move
taken at the request
of Turkey
comes at a time
of increasing
speculation
about a possible
European initiative
aimed at resolving
the Gulf crisis.
A senior French
politician
with close ties
to President
Francois Mitterrand
flew to Baghdad
for talks
with Iraqi authorities
before a meeting
of European
community
foreign ministers
scheduled
for later
today,
Friday.
Let's all
keep our
fingers crossed.
I know
people in the
news media
want some action.
They want to
be able to make
all these millions
of dollars
they've spent
going over
to the Persian Gulf.
They want to
make it all pay off.
there's something
in a lot of us
there's a sense
that we want
something exciting
to happen
you know
turn on the radio
and wonder
what's going to
be happening next
but there's a
downside to all
that folks
a very big
downside
and that's the
the horror
of war
and this is
potentially a
very horrible
war.
speaking of the
press
something else
in today's
New York
Times
Thursday's
New York
Times
about the
requirements
for
press
coverage
in Saudi
Arabia
you have to
pass a
physical
pretty incredible
you have to
pass a physical
to
to cover
what's going
on over
there
worried that
too many
reporters are
too far
out of shape
to cover
a war
Pentagon
officials have
imposed a
physical fitness
test on
journalists who
wish to be
sent out
with American
troops if
there is
battle with
Iraq
the test
which some
journalists say
has frightened
them more
than Saddam Hussein
ever did
requires the
reporters to
meet the
standards the
military sets
for its own
men and women
for sit-ups
push-ups
and a mile
and a half
run
so let's
take a look
at these
requirements
here
oh my
goodness
well if
you're
if you're
27 to
31
I don't
know why
they don't
have anybody
below 27
and you're
a man
you have to
do 42
sit-ups
in 2
minutes
42 sit-ups
in 2
minutes
or you
cannot
cover
the story
for whatever
newspaper
magazine
or electronic
media
that you
work for
so I
guess that
means
Philip
Shannon
of the
New York
Times
is able
to do
well depending
on how
old he
is
if he's
27 to
31
he's able
to do
42
in 2
minutes
32 to
36
38
in 2
minutes
and 42
and over
29
in 2
minutes
27
year olds
must do
38
push-ups
in 2
minutes
42
and over
must do
26
in 2
minutes
and
1.5
mile
run
lots of
people that
couldn't do
a 1.5
mile run
but they
insist that
if you're
20 to
29
you have
to do
it in
13
minutes
and 45
seconds
if you're
50 and
over
you have
to do
it in
17
minutes
and the
requirements
for women
are slightly
slightly
greater than
that
meaning
more time
is allowed
and fewer
sit-ups
and push-ups
are allowed
oh wow
look at this
look at this
push-ups
drastic difference
and I guess
there's some
sort of
physiological
reason for
this
if you're
27 to
31
you have
to do
38
push-ups
in 2
minutes
we mentioned
that
but if
you're
a woman
you only
have to
do
15
less than
half
and
42
and over
26
for males
12
for females
that's the
only
only part
of the
physical
where
there's
that much
of a
discrepancy
anyway
Edith
Letterer
of the
Associated
Press
a London
based
correspondent
who
covered
the
Vietnam
War
in
1972
and
73
said
I was
very
apprehensive
I'm a
swimmer
not a
runner
and I
think I
found
some
muscles
that I
didn't
even
know
existed
Miss
Letterer
took
the
test
I
guess
two
days
ago
the
January
weather
in the
Saudi
desert
was good
for exercise
reasonably cool
and dry
and she
passed
I was very
proud of myself
she said
noting that
while she did
finish last
in the
women's run
I ran it
all the way
and didn't
have to walk
like some
of the
others
the
passing
standards
are broken
down between
men and
women and
by age
the
testing
began
several
days
ago
at a
luxury
hotel
in this
eastern
Saudi
city
of
Dharan
where a
road behind
the swimming
pool was
used as a
running track
of the dozens of
journalists tested so far
only a handful have
failed all of them
men
make up tests are
scheduled
the Pentagon has
imposed other
requirements on
journalists who wish to be
part of the so-called
combat pool
a rotating group of
journalists whose reports
from the front lines with
American troops would be
shared with their
colleagues in Saudi Arabia
they must also attend a
lecture on how to defend
against chemical weapons
and to be outfitted for
a gas mask
well as promised
let's give it a shot here
let's try to call overseas
to Saudi Arabia
and
actually
speak to somebody
we'll definitely be
speaking to somebody
involved in the military
but what we're going to
try to do is
get connected to
well I'm not quite sure
how it's set up
I imagine a pay phone
rings somewhere in the
middle of the desert
and all these
these soldiers gather
around but I'm sure
it's not like that at all
we're going to attempt to
get
such a scene
and if anyone out there
knows of a number
knows of a way
of getting a hold
of a particular
battalion or
or a group of some sort
please
phone in
212-279-3400
with that information
okay
let's
get an operator
on the line
and
see just what we can
find out
yes I need long distance
please
thank you
thank you
thank you
hey Jim do you
can we help you
yes hello operator
we're having some
difficulty dialing
direct to
Saudi Arabia
just wondering if you
could help us
do you have a number
yes country code
966
city code
3
the number is
899-1119
thank you
hold on
thank you
thank you
line is busy
line is busy
the line is busy
okay thank you very much
you're welcome
when the line is busy
folks the
the only thing you can do
is start over
try it one more time
actually in
Saudi Arabia
right now
so
tell me
this is Gibbs
operator
may I help you
yes hi
can I have
long distance
please
one moment sir
thank you
in
Saudi Arabia
right now
I believe
it's 8 hours
ahead of us
so that would
make it
823
in the morning
one moment
for an operator
who can assist you
thank you
she sounded a bit
slower than she did
before
morning AT&T
yes hi
we're having
difficulty getting
through to
Saudi Arabia
I was wondering
if you might be
able to place
the call for us
thank you
it's country code
966
city code 3
and the number
is 899-1119
thank you
still busy
okay thank you
anyway
all right
that's the
trouble you run
into
we're getting
through but
they're busy
over there
doing something
and I was able
to make that
phone ring
only a few
hours ago
so we'll
give it a try
as the show
progresses
again our
phone number
is 212-279-3400
and I suppose
we might as well
take a few calls
see what's on
people's minds
as far as
the upcoming war
if there is an
upcoming war
where it's leading
if we're taking
the right path
and just what
kind of
path we should
be taking
but first
a reminder
aren't we
sending a
terrible signal
to
perhaps
further
similar problems
throughout the
world
that while you
go ahead in
and you do
all these things
to people
you use
chemical weapons
you gouge
their eyes
you rape
their women
you take
their babies
off of the
life support
systems in
hospitals
and drain
the blood
out of them
and then
yes we should
sit down
and negotiate
with you
because you
have some
valid points
I mean isn't
that sending
a bad signal
well if the
alternative is
war
is that right
what message
are we sending
to the world
if we have
this war
countdown in
the gulf
war or peace
tune in on
Sunday
January 13th
beginning at
1pm for an
all day special
on the Persian
Gulf crisis
featuring in
studio discussions
and live updates
from the region
countdown in
the gulf
will culminate
in a live
three hour
teach in
from the
New Yorican
Poets Cafe
beginning at
6pm
countdown in
the gulf
war or peace
Sunday
January 13th
from 1 to
10pm
on listener
supported
WBAI
99.5 FM
that sounds
like they're
playing the
guns of
Brixton in
the background
how nice
our phone
number again
is 212-279-3400
let's see who's
out there
good morning
good morning
I've just been
listening to
everything
and it's just
amazing
they're currently
spending about
40 million
dollars
to
a day
a day
yes
a day
now
you estimate
that's about
close to maybe
a billion
to two billion
dollars a month
and
could you just
hold on for
one second
I just have to
turn down my
radio
okay
and that's
advisable for
anybody calling
in
turn down your
radio
or you will
be confused
and always keep
your radio near
your phone
there'll be long
pauses on the
air
sorry
okay
just
the waste
in terms of
humanity
in terms of
finance
well it's an
incredible waste
especially in
wake of
some of the
things we've
seen here in
New York
I mean
last week
the subway
fire for
instance
people died
because the
system was not
maintained
because there
was not enough
money to
maintain it
they're talking
about cutting
subway service
cutting train
service on the
commuter lines
cutting all kinds
of social programs
the money is not
there but yet
the money is
there to
maintain this
incredibly expensive
venture
you know
I remember
when Daniel
Ortega came to
the South Bronx
and he was
talking about
at that point
the United States
had just
okayed
270 million
dollars
to kill
500,000
Nicaraguans
that we don't
even know
and
I mean
he was standing
in the middle
of all
this place
that looked like
bombed out
Europe
and we were
spending all
this time
and all this
energy
trying to take
him off the
planet
and all he
wanted
was his
people have
a right
to
have a right
to something
and I guess
that's just
our priorities
are wrong
we're willing
to spend
all this
money
to go
fight for
oil
but when
it comes
to like
the
Palestinians
on the
West Bank
or the
South Africans
in South
Africa
there were
sanctions
passed
against South
Africa
you don't
see
I mean
you have to
pull teeth
to get
Americans
to try
to support
these sanctions
at the same
time
but I mean
just in terms
of oil
alone
I mean
our farmers
are going
broke
our farmers
are closing
I mean
I think
10 farms
closed
two weeks
ago
in Madison
Wisconsin
our retailers
are going
broke
too
we produce
the most
corn and grain
in anywhere
else in the
world
in the
world
we can
make
fuel
from that
corn and grain
that would
burn clean
and more
efficiently
if we had
cars that
went 35
or 50
miles to
a gallon
we wouldn't
need a drop
of foreign
oil
or even
if we wanted
to go to the
root of foreign
oil
Mexico has
more oil
than Saudi
Arabia
and Kuwait
combined
you know
but it's in
our vested
interest
to bankrupt
Mexico
and keep
the Saudis
going
or
I believe
the total
amount
that
we obtained
from both
Iraq and
Kuwait
combined
was something
like 5%
but you know
in a way
I'm also
angry at
the American
voter
or the
person
that doesn't
vote
because
the person
that doesn't
vote
or the
voter
that's
uneducated
in a way
we kind
of deserve
what's
happening
we deserve
what's
happening
in this
respect
because
of the
choices
that people
make or
don't make
at the
voting booth
because
people
don't
take
the
time
to
find
out
what's
going
on
well
we feel
very safe
in our
little worlds
here
watching TV
and all that
and commuting
back and forth
to work
this is far
far away
but the thing
that's going
to drive it
home
is the fact
that these
are our
friends
our neighbors
people just
like us
that are
over there
now
that are
going to
meet
horrible
grisly
ends
unless we
do something
about it
now
I don't
want to
see anyone
meet a
horrible
grisly
end
I'm saying
even people
that are
gung-ho
for this
I don't
want to
see them
die
anymore
than I
want to
see someone
who doesn't
want to be
there die
but unfortunately
it's going
to take
something
like a
horrible
grisly
end
to make
people
wake up
when oil
goes
they estimate
the oil
will go up
to $100
a barrel
that means
a gallon
of gas
will cost
$3
a gallon
not to
mention
heating oil
is it
going to
take
something
like that
for an
American
to get
environmentally
conscious
is it
going to
take
something
like that
for an
average
American
to start
voting
according
to their
conscience
as opposed
to their
I don't
know
their greed
is it
going to
have to
take a
tragedy
to make
us
politically
aware
it seems
to always
take a
tragedy
it seems
to always
take a
disaster
of some
sort
to wake
people
and wake
governments
up
what worries
me about
this is
it's very
easy to
get this
thing
started
but like
a screaming
locomotive
going down
a hill
it's hard
as hell
to stop
and once
you start
a war
it's not
something you
can just
turn off
look how long
Vietnam took
to stop
after it
was decided
that it
was going
to in fact
stop
it took
years
where they
started sending
advisors over
there since
55
over in
Vietnam
but you
brought up
Tibet before
you know
I mean
a year ago
this time
we were
talking about
wasn't it
wonderful that
Eastern Europe
is finally
losing its
shackles
and we also
said what's
going to
happen to
all of that
extra defense
department money
that's not
going to be
needed anymore
how are we
possibly going to
find another
enemy
yeah it was
a clockwork
it was
it was
clockwork
you can't
think that
if over
at least a
generation
or two
generations
that you're
developing all
this anger
all this
hatred
it's got to
go someplace
it's got to
go somewhere
you know
if you don't
look at it
if you don't
deal with it
it's got to
go somewhere
and it's like
it's like
anybody else
it's like a
person has all
this anger
if like
sometimes in
extreme case
either they
take it on
their family
by beating
their children
or their
spouses
or they take
it out of
themselves
inwardly
by taking
drugs
or abusing
themselves
from chemicals
it's the same
thing
the same
thing
in the
national
conscience
you know
we're just
looking for
another enemy
and if it
doesn't go
out
the anger
is already
tearing us
up inside
racism is
on the rise
homelessness
is on the
rise
unbelievably
the governor
of Rhode
Island
closed down
all their
banking
institutions
because
they're
I mean
these banks
were used to
wash drug
money
that was
coming into
this
the drug
money
that was
used to
finance
wars of
people
some group
somewhere
didn't like
you know
I hope
I hope
that this
takes something
in a way
I don't want
to see
anybody die
I don't want
to see
anybody
I'm 28
years old
what's this
stopping them
from calling
me to go
over there
well if
you do
make sure
you can do
42 sit-ups
in two
minutes
thanks for
calling sir
you're welcome
all right
our phone number
is
212-279-3400
lots of good
points raised
in that call
and we can
sort of see
how it's
all connected
together
you know
and I know
that everybody
agrees as to
how it's
connected
together
but there is
a lot at
work here
I don't know
how many people
actually want
to see us
go to war
you know
I'm
admittedly
impressed
by
the way
the American
public is
dealing with
this
because I
don't see
the gung-ho
reaction
that you
saw 10
years ago
with the
Iranians
where lots
of people
appeared in
pickup trucks
with bumper
stickers that
said
nuke Iran
I don't see
the same
thing here
because this
is so much
closer to home
you know
we see it
as actually
happening
and I
really don't
know very
many people
that actually
want to see
an all-out war
because this
could lead to
so many bad
things
I've seen it
said in the
New York
Times actually
that a
scenario
a likely
scenario
would be
Iraq
spraying chemical
weapons all
over Israel
wiping out
something like
95% of the
population
and the
remaining 5%
of the very
angry Israeli
population
responding
with nuclear
weapons
and in that
region of the
world things
will just get
out of hand
so incredibly
fast and
we'll all be
sucked in like
so much water
in a bathtub
how's that for
an analogy
good evening
hello
yes hello
go ahead
the point is
this happy
1984 plus
seven
now the
point is
we think
of this
war
as something
different
actually
we're always
in a war
life and death
go on
constantly
so to
judge it
by this
idea
that
what would
happen
if I was
over there
I might get
killed
or as
Michio Kaku's
program
just Wednesday
evening
we were
talking about
a caller
called in
and said
what about
poison
warfare
gas
warfare
and germ
warfare
right here
in the
United
States
if some
Iraqi
came here
and did
some
putting
chemicals
here
and
biological
reforms
here
we could
devastate
New York
City
or anywhere
the point
is however
that people
are fighting
for their
lives
in hospitals
famines
go on
throughout
the world
and you
almost don't
get them
reported
because
well
a person
is dying
little
children
are getting
emaciated
in their
mother's
arms
you know
what I'm
talking about
National Geographic
got pictures
of them
and Life
Magazine
and Time
and so
on and so
forth
so the
problem
is that
who knows
maybe in the
future with
this idea
of George
Bush's
new world
order
we won't
go into
South Africa
as like a
peace force
there
because
I mean
it's not
as if
George Bush
doesn't
associate
with
Afro-American
people
what's his
name
is head
of military
right
right
now the
point is
this
we definitely
need improvements
here
we definitely
need
the whole
world
needs
you know
we want
to live
in peace
I mean
it's a
relatively
speaking
it's a
better state
of life
than other
things
but you know
the funny
thing is
it's not
funny
but I say
it in a
kind of
ironical
way
maybe
Beckett
might say
it or
some of
these other
thinkering
literary
people
actually our
war is
with God
because the
whole thing
has been
going on
from day
one
you know
when
if we were
expelled
from paradise
the garden
of eden
you know
the problem
is humanity
people
we don't
treat each
other just
right
I could go
on and on
a chap
who wrote
for foreign
affairs magazine
they have a little
quote that they
distributed
and they say
Saddam Hussein
came out of a
brittle land
the name of the
writer is
Fuad Ajami
Saddam Hussein
came out of a
brittle land
a frontier country
between Persia
and Arabia
with little
claim to
culture
and books
and grand
ideas
as compared
with for instance
Ayatollah Khomeini
who everybody
despises here
you know
when I say
everybody
I mean
none
his religion
his
anyway
it goes on
to say
the new
contender
was a despot
a ruthless
and skilled
warden
who had
tamed his
domain
and turned
it into
a large
prison
I mean
we had
the Iran
Contra
thing
so many
things are
going on
that we
don't even
know
who the
hell knows
all the
details
that exist
in the
world
that George
Bush
is even
contending
with
that we
don't even
know
the whole
thing is
such
it's almost
like life
is some
sort of
a human
comedy
of tragedy
and you
know
it reminds
me of
Blade Runner
the movie
where these
poor
androids
come back
and they're
trying to
get to
God
who lives
in this
fantastic
tall
building
and they
want to
plead
that he
will
figure
or
control
so they
can
live
longer
we
want to
live
because we
like talking
to our
friends
listening to
WBAI
and so
forth
right
well let's
let's
let's leave
God out of
it because
this is
this is
something
involving
humanity
involving
each and
every one
of us
and if we
look to
God for
the answers
we're going
to miss
what's right
underneath
our noses
I mean
people find
comfort in
all kinds
of things
but we
have to
start taking
responsibility
for our
actions
nobody is
going to
come out
of the sky
and save
us
and that's
unfortunately
what a lot
of people
seem to
believe
they seem
to believe
that it's
all predestined
and that
certain things
will just
naturally take
care of
themselves
and Saddam
Hussein will
be struck
down
well you
know it's
not that
simple
it's just
not that
simple
and we
just have to
take responsibility
for the
things that
we do
and that
that goes
you know
on a national
level
it goes
on an
individual
level
there is
not one
person
listening
to this
radio
program
now that
cannot
make a
difference
if they
choose to
and whether
or not
you choose
to actually
you make
a difference
because if
you decide
not to do
anything
that makes
a difference
too
a caller
before mentioned
all the people
that didn't
vote
well if
you're one
of them
you may
think you're
not making
a difference
but you
are
because by
not
participating
you're
steering the
ship in
a certain
direction
and it's
a direction
almost nobody
wants to
go
good evening
go ahead
you touched
on something
briefly that
I had been
saying and
talking to a
couple of
friends about
a few weeks
ago and that
is the
wimp factor
every time
Bush's
aides
tell him
that Mr.
Bush they're
calling you
a wimp
in the
New York
Times
people are
going to
needlessly
and foolishly
die because
this man
has to prove
his manhood
it's ridiculous
I think we
should put
out in the
press that
Mr. Bush
is a bad
man
a really
tough character
nonsense
wouldn't have
to go on
you know I
think it would
be incredible
if I mean
already the
Iraqi government
said that Bush
must have been
drunk to think
something but
if Saddam Hussein
got a national
TV and just
said Mr. Bush
you are a
wimp
I mean he
probably
nuked the
whole country
if he did
that
that's the
magic word
I think
Time magazine
got it
you know
the two
facedness
of George
Bush
thanks for
calling
212-279-3400
is our phone
number
let's give
Saudi Arabia
one more
try
and see if
we can
get that
phone to
ring over
there
hopefully
it's not
going to be
off the
hook
all day
long
it's about
840
over there
telephone
miss
may I
help
you
yes
hello
we need
long distance
please
for which
area
please
this will
be for
Saudi
Arabia
thank you
one moment
for an
operator
who can
assist
you
thank you
every time
I hear that
recording
it sounds
slower
this is
AT&T
can we
help
you
yes
hello
operator
we're having
difficulty
getting through
to Saudi
Arabia
I was wondering
if you could
place the
call for us
sure
what number
okay
it's country
code
966
city code
3
and the
number
is
899
1119
thank you
thank you
you're welcome
oh dear
that's busy
huh
okay
thanks anyway
you're welcome
it's amazing
how you can
always tell
a busy signal
has that
repetitive sound
to it
no matter
where you go
good evening
good morning
I should say
good evening
go ahead
yeah
the thing
with last
call about
the God
point
I think
he was trying
to say
that the
problem
with the
God
thing
is that
a lot
of people
all think
they've got
it's like
the Dylan
song
with God
on our
side
like
a lot
of people
think
they've got
God
on their
side
that's
the thing
he was trying
to say
not that we
have to
turn to God
for an answer
but the problem
is everybody
thinks their
God is right
right
well you know
it boils down
to the same
thing
because you know
dragging God
into it in the
first place
I think that's
a mistake
okay
all right
so then
here's an
interesting anecdote
I was on
New Year's Eve
I was in a
rock and roll
bar and they
were singing
Living in the
USA
you know that
song
Living in the
USA
who does it
oh it's a
stand around
I'm so glad
I'm living in
the USA
okay
anyway so
they're doing
the song
they're dedicating
it to the boys
over you know
where they say
right
and they go
and they say
like the guitar
says on
January 15th
we're gonna
bomb that
blank brain
and you know
that's just an
anecdote
I'm putting
out there
as a vignette
I was in a
place where
that was
the sentiment
was extremely
gung ho
you know
now I would
just like to
say
when you're
saying it
you're very
impressed
with people
not being
so gung ho
and when you
call us
folks
and you know
you're on the
WBAI
which has been
like an
anti-war
station
and it's like
I don't know
who you think
you're talking
to but it's
so incredibly
patronizing
and condescending
that you think
that we would
not be
anti-war
that you're
going to
enlighten us
and then all
your stuff
with the
telephone people
the way you're
mean to the
operators
as if they
deserve this
kind of abuse
how am I
mean to the
operators
I agree with
you the big
brother
the telephone
company
wait wait
wait wait
when am I
mean to
operators
I'm never
mean to
operators
I meant it
I said
thank you
I meant it
I'm thanking
them for
oh come on
you meant it
you're so
full of anger
but bigger than
that
this audience
here doesn't
need to be
condescended to
by you
but thank you
very much
you know I
always find it
fascinating how
people who
can never
listen to
another side
always feel
they have to
hang up
before the
other side
responds
well folks
I'm sorry
if I'm using
condescending
words
by using
the word
folks
and talking
to operators
I'm not quite
sure I understand
any of that
if someone else
who's willing
to stay on
the line a
little longer
wants to
explain it to
me
feel free
please
boy
there's nothing
worse than
having sarcasm
read into your
remarks and you're
not being sarcastic
and also
having sarcasm
missed when you
are being sarcastic
two worst things
in the world
you know this
line has been
has been ringing
all night long
but it doesn't
light up so
you're very lucky
to be on the air
good evening
hi
yeah are you
there
yeah
go ahead
what I want
to talk about
was that
we don't
really need
the oil
I agree
with that
because we
have
they can make
oil out of
corn and
hemp
a lot of
people don't
know that
they can make
it out of
hemp
because it's
marijuana
but what
they can do
is they can
make oil
out of hemp
they can
make paper
clothing
canvas
well there's
all kinds of
alternative ways
of making
energy
right
but with
the hemp
products
they won't
they won't
you know
legalize
they can
make
paper also
and they
wouldn't
have to
dime more
trees
it would
pretty much
reverse all
flex
now how
would you
handle then
what's going
on in the
gulf if we
had an
adequate way
of meeting
our energy
needs
we could go
home because
we don't need
to be there
because
weight was
a monarchy
it was
a dictatorship
as is
Saudi Arabia
and we're
not protecting
everyone's
freedom
the people
there probably
just as well
as Saddam Hussein
you don't think
it makes much
of a difference
who rules
the country
it's the same
thing
and Saddam Hussein
is their
perfect leader
because he's
he's their
Islamic leader
their religious
leader
god is always
and his
god is very
important
and he's
also their
political leader
and I think
on ABC News
I saw
Egyptians
Palestinians
and another
group were all
backing him
it wasn't
government
organized
but it was
the faction
that joined
his army
I'm curious
how much
of that
is because
they really
back him
and how much
of that
is because
they just
are against
us
you know
against what
we've been
doing over
there
well we
certainly
helped him
out
no I've
heard that
said before
quite a few
times
well thanks
and I mean
it
I don't say
thanks and
be sarcastic
about it
you know
I try to
I try to
say what's
on my mind
and if I
want to
insult somebody
I usually
do a pretty
good job
of it
yeah you
know and I
think we
should
violently
attack the
next politician
that says
well solar
energy is a
developing
technology
it's been
a developing
technology now
for 10,000
years
let's develop
the damn
thing already
because it's
obviously
cheaper
it's obviously
unlimited
and it's
clean
yeah I
think that
a lot of
the oil
companies
buy those
people out
I actually
heard that
they own
a lot of
the patents
for this
kind of thing
well that
would not
surprise me
at all
either
and George
Bush is
an oil man
from Texas
I mean I'm
sure he's
got a lot
of people
to pay off
and a lot
of debts
owed
you know
a lot
of people
don't want
to hear
that
a lot
of people
want to
say well
that's just
you know
a conspiracy
theory of
some sort
even though
it's probably
true
and I think
the reason
is possibly
the way
it's presented
you know
if you can
use facts
and convincing
arguments
to show
somebody
that this
is in fact
true
I think
in the end
you will
wind up
convincing
them
rather than
just say
oh it's
all
it's all
corruption
and it's
you know
it's all
evil
at the very
core
I guess
you know
that kind
of talk
turns people
off
and you know
they label
you something
and then they
don't listen
to you anymore
so that's
that's what
we got to
be careful
of
thanks very
much for
calling
it's 1248
the program
is investigations
this is
Emanuel Goldstein
filling in
for Andrew
Phillips
who was
called up
to active
service
in case
you didn't
hear
and he
will be
leaving
Saudi Arabia
tomorrow
I'll let
that one
sit for a
couple of
seconds
no that's
not true
but it
could be
you know
I don't
think anybody
here at
BAI has
been called
up
but imagine
if the draft
started again
boy you'd
see some
you'd see
some
flurrying
around
you'd see
people
start thinking
then
almost everybody
I know
who is of
draft age
has announced
their intention
to go to
Canada
and I just
don't think
that's going
to work
anymore
you know
I just
don't think
they're
going to
have their
doors wide
open to
us
you're going
to need
better answers
than that
folks
whoops
I used
that word
again
sorry
good morning
yes hello
good morning
I just
have to
ask a
question
like I'm
an American
and I
have no
vested
interest
in anything
over there
in the
Middle East
at all
but I'm
kind of
aware of
somewhat
of history
and if
what's
required for
negotiation
is to
put all
the UN
resolutions
that have
been passed
in that
region for
the past
50 years
or so
on the
table
and resolve
them all
why is
there fear
of that
I mean
to me
that sounds
reasonable
because I
know there
are many
problems
you know
that's a
very good
question
and you
know it
reminds me
of something
also that
happened
recently
where
they were
using the
prospect of
a Mideast
peace
conference
as kind
of a
threat
you know
Israel
was very
adamant
about not
wanting a
Mideast
peace
conference
and the
United
States
was debating
whether or
not to
insult
Israel
by voting
for it
and it's
a peace
conference
for God's
sake
it means
peace
it's supposed
to be
something
good
it's like
voting
for life
I want to
make myself
clear
I'm aware
of the
atrocities
committed
by
Saddam Hussein
but he
was caught
in a
corner
and the
first thing
he said
he wants
to debate
the issue
on the
UN floor
I said
isn't this
wonderful
isn't this
a new
way of
approaching
a situation
like this
let's hear
what the
issues are
now when
did he
say that
that was
early on
that was
I think
when
I think
it was
back in
either September
or October
that was
turned out
that was
considered
ludicrous
by the
administration
here
what about
before the
actual
invasion
we saw
this
coming
we saw
the
conflicts
between
Kuwait
and Iraq
we knew
the man
had
the country
separated
from the
individual
thing
the country
had problems
they knew
that he
had a
large
standard
army
and
a
sinking
economy
and people
that understand
these things
know that
he has
one or two
choices
he has to
pay his
army
and he
wanted to
boost up
the price
of oil
to do
that
but for
some reason
he felt
was shown
to him
that Kuwait
was as he
charged
that Kuwait
was in
some sort
of collusion
with the
West
to hold
the price
of oil
down
and all
that was
said
I'm not
saying
nothing
that wasn't
on the
news
you know
the regular
you know
Channel 2
Channel 4
news
early on
they reported
all this
as it was
happening
but then he
invaded
Kuwait
in order
to do
that
but
once that
was done
the things
that sound
reasonable
to me
because there
are a lot
of problems
in the world
I mean
I know
Greece
wants
the return
of their
artifacts
that were
stolen
in the
18th
century
Nigeria
wants
the artifacts
that were
stolen
from them
you know
I'm talking
about archaeological
artifacts
in the
British
Museum
the
Australians
the
aboriginal
Indians
want
the return
of the
bones
of their
ancestors
we have
problems
here
with the
American
Indians
that have
to be
resolved
you know
I
initially
when this
if that
approach
could have
been taken
I thought
it would
have been
a kickoff
to a large
range of
discussions
to come
to somehow
some sort
of world
that we
all can
live with
some sort
of kind
of gentler
world
maybe
rather than
this kind
of belligerent
type of
attitude
that we're
going to
deal with
the Iraq
weight
in a
narrow focus
not recognizing
the past
150 years
history that's
going on in the
area
and the
offer to
say let's
just open
it up
and let's
talk about
all the
UN resolutions
let's see
if we have
300 or
400 thousand
troops over
there
I mean
they could be
used to
take over
a lot of
territories that
have been
occupied
and say
until we can
resolve this
the UN
and you
know
we'll
control
the West
Bank
you know
I know a lot
of Israelis
might get upset
about that
but yes
let's get the
whole region
on the table
and if we can
do that
then maybe
we can get
South Africa
on the table
maybe we can
get a lot
of things
on the table
and maybe
we can
finally get
to some
sort of
planet
that will
work
but this
is a
totally
bad sign
to me
that this
new world
order
you know
that is being
talked about
is really
a world
conquest
of some
type
and I
think that
the major
push behind
it is basically
money
and that's
why this
would never
have happened
on behalf
of the
moneyless
people of
South Africa
very often
people come
along and
say
enough of
this already
let's just
look at
the simple
conflict here
and resolve
this conflict
and I think
that's what
you're doing
and that's
exactly the
way I would
approach the
situation too
put aside
all this
stupidity
and just
attack the
problem
it becomes
so
sideswiped
in all the
headlines
and we're
not ignorant
people
I mean
we know
these things
the country
isn't run
by fools
it's just
that their
objectives
may not
be
aligned
with what
I hoped
they would
have been
you know
I'm sure
they're aware
of
we know
we learned
from World
War II
we rebuilt
Europe
after World
War II
because it
was said
even then
that World
War II
was a result
of the
repression
imposed upon
the defeated
countries of
World War I
they knew this
it was written
in history books
so they said
well rather
than have
let people
suffer
and another
Hitler rise
they will
alleviate the
suffering
you know
so we know
that these
things
we understand
these things
this is not
no new
knowledge
we can
function as
more intelligent
people
but it just
seems that
as a whole
we seem to be
operating with
the combined
intelligence
of a worm
or something
out there
well sometimes
the intelligence
of a worm
is convenient
to people
that want to
get their way
exactly
and that's
that's why
you see
people saying
we don't
want to
debate
you know
we don't
want to
have this
brought up
in Congress
because it's
going to
bog things
down
it's going
to send
the wrong
signals
it's going
to me
I have no
vested interest
in anything
over there
I have no
fear of a
debate
you know
I think
I have no
fear that
that you know
if it's
we have enough
strength that
if it's
you know
totally against
our interest
you know
as a nation
well okay
we don't have
to really
go for it
but let's
leave
you know
we don't
have to
kill
you know
300
400
people
neither
exactly
thanks very
much for
calling sir
okay
good night
our number
is 212-279-3400
and please
call in and
speak out
because as
that last
gentleman said
hundreds of
thousands of
lives are
at stake
here
and not
just American
lives
Iraqi lives
too
they count
you know
lives of
all kinds
count
I was
connected
to
an Iraqi
operator
and I
was
I was
nice to
her too
and not
sarcastic
and you
could hear
you know
in the
background
you could
hear
other
operators
other Iraqi
operators
and you
heard laughing
and giggling
and things
like that
and you
realize
you know
it's
it's
you know
technology
is different
but you
know
people
think
in a
similar way
and they
laugh
and they
cry
and they
do all
kinds of
human things
because they're
human
and it's so
easy to
think of them
as not being
human
one thing
that I think
technology is
very capable
of at this
particular stage
is conveying
the
humanity
of a
foreign land
the humanity
of a war
there's
anything
that I
think
is good
about the
way
there's
been
coverage
it's
seeing
the actual
faces
seeing
the names
of the
people
who are
over there
and allowing
us to
realize
that these
are people
it's not
just a
monolithic
force
they're
individuals
you know
and they
have
their own
particular
way of
looking at
things
and they
don't all
look at
things in
the same
way
from a
military
point of
view
I guess
that's
not a
not a
good way
to present
yourself
but
we're not
in the
military
are we
good morning
yes
I just
have a
question
like I
ask so
many people
and no
one can
answer
yeah
is
Kuwait a
city or
country
well Kuwait
is actually
Kuwait is a
country and Kuwait
city is the
capital of that
country it's a
very small
country
Kuwait I
don't believe
is the only
city
like New
York
New
York
it's like
Kuwait
Kuwait
pretty much
except Kuwait
is a lot
smaller than
that
but it is
a country
it is a
country
and a city
of course
it's not a
country right
now if you
talk to Saddam
Hussein but
in the eyes of
the world
it is a
country
yes
oh okay
alright does that
answer your
question
yes it does
okay thanks for
calling
thank you
well she waited
a long time to
ask that question
because she was
all the way down
on the bottom
there but
yes Kuwait is
depending on who
you talk to
it's either a
country or
a province of
Iraq
it's just about
one o'clock
we have Bob
Fast coming in
in half an hour
and we'll be
taking some more
phone calls
right after this
public service
announcement
from my
favorite bunch
of people
The Clash
1982 I
believe
takes you
back but
boy it
still makes
sense
you must not
relent
what are the
neighbors and
the puppets
involved
what are they
saying in
a bubbling
bizarre
we're tired
of the tune
you must not
relent
at every
stroke of
the bell
in the tower
there goes
another boy
from another
side
the bulletins
that steady
come in
say those
familiar words
at the top
of the
hour
the
jalli
of the
world
continue
to come
the
brown
music
of
government
hear those
gun
tappers
parole
on the
ground
no one mentions
the
neighboring
war
no one knows
what they're
filing
for
there's
a
different
kind
of
chemical
systems
2000
flushes
keeps the
water
crystal
clear
keeps the
balls
warmly
clean
continuously
for about
four months
no rings
no sprays
no stains
just put the
container in
your tank
and forget it
every time
you flush
the chlorine
crystals
dissolve away
rust of minerals
before dirt
rings and stains
appear
and flushing
sure beats
brushing
the
general
foul
to the
government
with
heart
of the
tomb
it was
a
religion
o
long
o

o
o
o
o
o
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
you can laugh put them down those one-way people are gonna mow you down
that's the clash with charlie don't surf off the uh sandinista triple album set
still a classic in my view and uh there's one great quote that goes not only for uh
for that song but for the entire album i think it's this so many armies can't free the world how
can they how can so much military might military madness poised on the edge of complete and utter
annihilation how can it
prove to be freedom for anybody
even us
well our number is two and two two seven nine three four hundred we're taking phone calls and again let
me uh repeat the um uh the plea if anybody out there has a particular uh phone number over there
in saudi arabia of a military base or something like that we'd sure like to speak to somebody
it's hard to get through though it really is and uh we're calling in the middle of uh of their morning
i guess they're doing their jumping jacks or whatever it is they do at this time of day
and probably talking on the phone quite a bit too obviously as we've been trying to get through and
getting a busy signal
i guess next time we'll try calling them in the middle of the night and waking them up that probably
will be more successful for us
well let's give it another try let's give it one more try
to actually get through to a military base in saudi arabia
let's get an operator
okay it hung up on us again it's a technical problem we have here
uh yes hi uh is this the operator yes okay i need long distance please thank you thank you
one moment for an operator who can assist you thank you now i'm sarcastic to the recording that's no
question
at&t how can we help you yes hi we're having a great deal of difficulty getting through to saudi arabia i
was wondering if you might be able to help us
i'm trying to reach country code nine six six city code three and the number is eight nine nine one one one nine
thank you very much
that's a busy signal eh
that's a busy signal
okay thanks anyway
well they're just uh passing forth all kinds of commands and orders back and forth so uh
i don't know unless somebody comes up with a better number one that might not be so busy
we might have to consider this particular part of the program
a failure
i can live with that i don't know if our listeners can
212-279-3400
good morning
uh hi i thought maybe you and your listeners might be interested to know that there will be
an event this sunday
a public forum
on the gulf crisis at the columbia law school that's free and open to the public
and what time does it begin
it's 10 o'clock in the morning until 8 o'clock at night
this takes place at columbia
yeah columbia law school 116th and amsterdam
classroom c
and how many people are you expecting
a couple hundred cnn is uh planning on broadcasting
and we have um congressman ted weiss is coming by
professor seymour melman
uh robert knight
has said he's going to speak
i think daniel lazar
uh-huh
some of the speakers
and uh who is uh organizing this
well it's just uh an individual
uh her name is uh beth lamont
she's connected a little with the american humanist association
uh-huh
well that's great that an individual would organize something like this
and uh hopefully it'll lead to many more such things
i'm sure it will
uh-huh
uh thanks so much for for uh letting us know about it
okay
hope to see you there
okay
take care
and uh
well just seeing robert knight speak alone is
is worth going for
believe me
um
quite a bit of uh
of knowledge will be passed
at that particular event
there are other events too
and if you listen to this radio station
i'm sure you'll hear all about them
and of course if you listen to this radio station
you'll
you'll learn quite a bit that you won't
learn in other places
it's important to uh
open up your mind
and don't close off to uh to the other media sources either
you know there are people that listen to wbai that refuse to listen to anything else
well that's a mistake
you know if you don't listen to uh
what abc news is saying
or what the new york post
well okay we can get away with the new york post
you don't have to look at them
but uh you know what mainstream media
for the most part is doing
you're making the same mistake that uh
that someone who refuses to listen to saddam hussein
or the isle tola
same mistake
you write them off
you say they're crazy
they don't make any sense
well the fact of the matter is
they make sense to a lot of people
and if you want to consider them your enemy
you have to at least try to understand them
no better way to understand your enemy
than to listen to what they have to say
good morning
hello
is anyone there
well
the person
has moved on to better things i guess
good morning
hi
how you doing
okay
i had a couple of questions to ask you
go ahead
do you consider yourself a pacifist
uh
well
you know it depends on the situation
uh
i would say
depends on the situation
you're not a pacifist
what's your
what's your definition of a pacifist
i mean it's kind of a negative
and will not fight a war
under any circumstances
i can't see myself doing that
no
you can't see yourself doing what
fighting in a war
under any circumstance
is that what you're saying
in other words
you are a pacifist
i guess i am
yeah
you made a remark earlier
about world war ii
you said it was an awful tragedy
uh
would your feeling have been
that we should have not fought hitler
well that's you know
i i also said that there were just uh
just wars
and certainly uh
fighting hitler was a just cause
would you support
if you had been
say uh
of age to fight
fascism
at the time that hitler was trying to take
over the world
would you have uh
supported that war
well you know it's it's almost impossible to answer that question
but i was in that situation
yeah
well what we want to tell us about it
yeah
in the late 30s
there was a policy called collective security
uh-huh
it was being advanced
by maxim litvinov
who was the uh
foreign
um
uh
representative of the soviet union
uh
that was more or less
brushed aside
almost completely
while hitler was built up
he was getting
two billion pound loan
from england
he was getting support
from the right wing
fascist forces
throughout the world
which were building him up
in the hope that he would follow
his mein kampf
outline
which was a
dung
or hasten
the drive to the east
that he would be built up
finally
and fight the soviet union
uh
instead when the time came
from the fight
the soviet union
right after munich
he uh
which was supposed to be
peace in our time
he signed the uh
soviet
nazi non-aggression pact
and two days later
uh
we declared
england and uh
france declared war
in germany
i guess you know
that war was declared
by them
because their policy
obviously had failed
uh
the policy of
collective security
now
it would seem to me
is the policy
of stopping
saddam
without war
which was the attempt
that they were
that litvinov was trying to make
he was trying to get the world
to impose sanctions
uh
the policy of sanctions
would be the policy to follow
if we want to try and stop
hussein now
who's becoming more powerful
who's killed
what was it
fifty thousand
uh
people by poison gas
within his own country
uh
suppose the situation were
that the
um
white government of south africa
were to use
poison gas
against fifty thousand
what they call
coloreds
in south africa
in order to
uh
uh
nullify the
uh
activism that's taking place
today
uh
would you feel
very very strongly
against those people
who advocated
going in and trying
to do something about it
notarily
well
you know
it's always uh
it's always hard to uh
to justify going into
a foreign country
you know
and moving
hundreds of thousands
of troops there
just has a
kind of unpleasant taste
you know
to uh
uh
to flex your muscles
in that way
and i
you know
i have the same problem
no matter
what side i'm on
at the particular time
if i support the people
going in
and i didn't say
i didn't support
uh
the uh
the people in the u.s
military here
because
you know
i don't see them as
in this particular case
uh
uh
doing something
that's bad
uh
but i think
they're being
led into something
that could be
very very bad
um
well i don't think
this is the equivalent
of hitler
no i certainly
don't either
and i wish
bush would stop
saying it was
stopping until
he took over
the world
right
but i mean
it was a stated
policy
it's not the same
here
nevertheless
do you feel
a little uncomfortable
finding that you're
aligned on the same
side as the extreme
right-wing
fascist
nazi groups
in this country
i mean they agree
with your position
100 percent
you'll have
you'll have to go
into a little bit
more detail on that
well the fascists
in this country
uh
the neo-nazis
uh
have an analysis
which you may have
heard about
i'm sure you've
read about it
that this entire
uh
uh
attempt to stop
hussein
is actually
a jewish
conspiracy
and
that
uh
it's
the jews are trying
to force this
country into a war
and that we have
to fight against it
in order to stop
the jews
i mean that's the
policy
if you get the
extreme right-wingers
say pat buchanan
who has supported
everything
that the united states
has done in an
imperialist way
he supported
panama
he supported
granada
but all of a sudden
he's opposed
very very strongly
opposed to going
in against
uh
uh
hussein
and he's just the
i mean the more
respectable right-wingers
the further to the
right you go the more
violently they are
against the united
states involvement
the stronger the
people were
for invading
granada
invading panama
uh
the stronger they
are now against
going in against
hussein
and that makes me
feel a little
uncomfortable
i'm just wondering
how it makes you
feel
to be
shoulder with
shoulder
shoulder with
shoulder
well i don't
i don't feel
i'm shoulder
with shoulder
right-wing fascist
nazi groups
well i don't see
very many of them
around to be honest
and i don't
i don't feel like
i'm aligned with
uh
i mean i'm sure
that you could
find something that
i'd agree with
charles manson about
and that doesn't
mean i'm aligned
with him
you know it's
it's um
i don't i don't
see that as a
valid point i'm
sorry
i didn't i don't
know what point i'm
making did i make a
point i simply asked
you how you felt
about it
oh i'm sorry
well i
i don't feel
i don't feel
it's an issue
i don't feel
something that uh
particular case i
don't think it's
the equivalent of
fighting the nazis
nevertheless i said
i feel very
uncomfortable
when i find my
allies to be
extreme right-wing
nazis and fascists
and anti-semites
and i was asking
you how you felt
about that
well i don't think
you should think
of it as um
as them being
your allies
because i
they're not your
allies how how
can you even think
they're your allies
just because they
agree with you
on on one
particular issue
that doesn't make
it on this issue
i'm not talking
about them being
my allies
philosophically
i say i feel
uneasy on this
issue when i find
that the people who
are the strongest
uh allies
of the left-wing
positions are
those on the
extreme right
wing makes me
feel a little
uneasy
yeah you think
of it as kind
of a circular
thing perhaps
the extreme
the extreme
left is uh
becoming the
extreme right
no i don't
think so at
all i think
that motivations
are completely
different
so what's the
problem
they're on the
same side
that's one of
those things
where we're
coming from
completely different
positions and
having completely
different goals
do you believe
the extreme right
is in that
kind of a
position where
if we actually
get a particular
view across
they'll be so
strengthened that
they could actually
become in power
or something like
that is that
what you're saying
not at all
i'm not saying
that at all
i'm just saying
that the position
that the
that the
Buchanan is a
good case in
point he's been
the most
articulate spokesman
of the extreme
right he has
supported any
nazi for example
who's brought
up for a
trial
he's convicted
he'll say
he's innocent
he supported
all the nazis
who came to
this country
and has been
fighting tooth
and nail
to have any
of them
expelled
even after
it's been
shown that
they were
brought here
by fascist
elements in
our government
which violated
the law
and bringing
them here
i mean it
was hard
enough to
begin
even to
begin
the investigation
he's fighting
now for
dimanjuk
for example
for his
acquittal
i don't know
i don't think
he's taking
a position
he took
a position
on eichmann
but i'm sure
if he did
it would have
been to
support eichmann
i mean he's
he's a very
thinly veiled
nazi
and he's
extremely strong
about not
fighting
hussain
my own
feeling is
that any
time we
talk about
not fighting
hussain
it should be
coupled
with how
do we
stop him
in other
words here's
a man who
represents
potentially
a danger
for the
world
if this
man has
nuclear arms
and has
poison gas
which is as
powerful
and his
objective
he's taking
kuwait
and i do
think that
the people
whose position
i don't agree
with are
correct in
certain things
i do think
he would have
gone into
saudi arabia
for example
if we weren't
there
i do think
he has an
army that's
the strongest
in the
middle east
and his
designs are
to take over
and become
the man who
controls
the world
because if
he controls
all the
oil which
is what
he seems
to be aiming
towards
then he
has the
world by
the neck
so to speak
well you know
it's entirely
possible that
he does
want to
take over
the world
but i think
the best way
to combat
that is to
have the
world
stand up
against him
not just
the united
states
and since
we have
so much
world support
i just wonder
why this has
turned into a
george bush
versus
hadan hussein
that's my
main concern
here is why
is this a
u.s.
versus iraq
kind of a
thing
economic
considerations
and oil
considerations
it's exactly
for that
reason
because they're
worried about
us having a
stranglehold on
oil and because
our economy
maybe we'd hit the
worst depression
we've ever seen
you'd have
unemployment
so rampant
that it would be
dangerous for the
government
there'd be such
dissatisfaction
they don't want
to see the
country plunged
into that
kind of
thing which
hasan
can do
if he gets
complete control
over our
oil supplies
so there's a
desperate economic
reason behind it
but aside from
that what I'm
saying is
it seems to
me that
there's something
wrong when
the fight
against going
in to fight
hasan
is not
extremely
clearly coupled
with denunciation
of hasan
in other words
it seems to be
almost a
defense of
hasan
I've heard
things that
were like
that
I heard a
guy on
BAI a little
while ago
before you
who was saying
that Bush is
being told what
to do by the
Israelis
a guy who's
coming from
the left
nevertheless
that's to me
a strictly
anti-semitic
remark
well it depends
how it's taken
I mean
I'm very strongly
that the balance
of power
between Israel
and the United
States
is that the
Israelis
are dictating
to the United
States
well there's
I mean there's
two ways you
can take that
you can say
that you know
the Israelis
are dictating
to the United
States
and it's part
of a world
Zionist plot
which I agree
with you
would be an
anti-semitic
remark
or it's
that Israel
is very
adamant about
certain things
and sometimes
a bit fanatical
and I think
that's a
justified
criticism
not anti-semitic
at all
I think the
United States
dictates Israeli
policy
and that's
vice versa
and I think
they're being
told
now to cool it
by the Bush
not even to
defend themselves
if they're
attacked
Hassan has
come out
and said
he's going
to nuke
or not nuke
use poison
gas
which is
he claims
he doesn't
have the
nuclear bomb
but he's
come out
and said
that the
first thing
he'll do
if there's
a war
is to send
missiles
with poison
gas
into the
civilian
centers of
Israel
here at
Tel Aviv
I think
he was
expecting
an equally
hysterical
retort
from Israel
and instead
what we saw
was a very
measured
response
and I think
that in
itself
was enough
to shoot
down
anybody
on my side
say anything
about that
I didn't hear
anybody
condemn it
I didn't hear
anybody
attack that
remark
I haven't
heard people
really
trying to
pinpoint
the danger
of Hassan
they've
been
pinpointing
the danger
of war
which I
agree
with
but it's
a very
uncomfortable
feeling
I have
I'm not
a pacifist
I believe
if we're
invaded
you have
to fight
back
I believe
when Hitler
threatened
the world
we had
to fight
and so
it's not
just that
I'm against
war per se
I mean
I would
like to
see a
world
if there
was a
world
socialist
order
perhaps
in which
there
were no
imperialist
conflicts
that we
might be
able to
avoid war
finally
to root
war out
of the
universe
but
as long
as war
is taking
place
occasionally
there's a
just war
and
therefore
to be
against it
purely
as I
feel
that there's
a pacifist
undertone
I keep
hearing
the argument
is
we don't
want to
go into
this war
because
they're
going to
be
body
bags
bringing
our
boys
home
well
I knew
that
I knew
that
in 1941
and 1942
when I
enlisted
in the
army
in 42
the argument
being used
by the
neo-nazi
elements
and the
direct
nazi
elements
in this
country
was
they're
sending
American
boys
over
to be
killed
I mean
it wasn't
a matter
of why
we were
fighting
it was
just a
pacifist
idea
that just
to fight
is bad
because it's
going to
lead to
death
and my
feeling
is that
that's a
dangerous
position
to take
because if
a just
war comes
up those
same
arguments
can be
used
in other
words
it's not
a valid
argument
to say
we mustn't
fight
because there
may be boys
coming back
in body
bags
no but that's
a very good
reason
because those
are needless
deaths
that's the real
reason
right but that's
a very good
reason to start
asking questions
is this a just
war and I think
that's what we're
asking here is
is this a just
war
okay
thanks very much
for calling
it's a very
interesting discussion
I'd like to
continue it but I do
want to get in a
couple more calls
thanks very much
again
and let's see
how many we can
get in the last
couple of minutes
here
good morning
good morning
yeah I didn't
mean to hang up
on you
I thought you
were going to
hang up on me
that's why I
hung up
okay I'm
willing to
talk to you
sure
oh boy
okay go ahead
fast
no I'm
willing to
respond
I thought you
were going to
hang up on me
that's why I
hung up
okay
just get on
with it
go ahead
look I'm
just saying
this is a
very sophisticated
audience and I
feel like when you
call us folks
it's like you
somehow like the
educator to the
uneducated
unenlightened
ones and I
think more
respect for
the people
maybe when you're
at Stony Brook
that's different
you know those
kids are those
kids we're not
kids out here
okay
well hello
yeah
that's that's not
the way I
intended at all
and I've never
heard anybody else
interpret it that
way
the thing with
the telephone
company right
it's like the
big brother should
be treated in an
angry way but
when you get those
operators they're
just people they
don't represent big
brother okay they're
just working for a
job and you
abuse them in a
little sarcastic
so not the
recordings the
people you know
you'll have to
give me a specific
example because I
don't know what
you're talking about
I'm not abusive to
operators at all I
never have been not
in real life not on
the radio
in a very subtle
way and it's
really quite
maybe it's so
subtle that even
I'm missing it
because I don't
understand it at
all I mean I
think I'm not
getting it okay
okay I'll agree
with other people
for it right now
sorry
I'll agree with
other people in
the last couple
minutes
okay thanks a
lot
oh boy
what a world
good evening
good morning
hi there
you had the
show on last
night right
yes off the
hook was on last
night yes
can I mention
something about
that
well very quickly
because this isn't
off the hook but
go ahead
I think once again
you've been had by
New York telephone
I've been had by
New York telephone
how have I been
had
you well because
you said that
that they've asked
for 800 million
and got 250 million
well I'm not too
happy about that
but you know do
you think they
expected to get
800 they probably
expected to get
200 and they got
more than they
expected
it's it's possible
but they have
gotten what they've
asked for in the
past you know
they've gotten
close to what
they've asked for
in the past
but they you know
given what's going
on oh I'm not
happy about this
by any means
no I know you're
not happy I bet
you're as unhappy
as I am
but I think I
think they're kind
of unhappy too
and that makes me
a little happier
you know what I
mean
I think you know
given how things
go that they
probably they you
know they knew
that they wouldn't
get what what
they asked for
so they asked
for three times
what they wanted
and they got
what they figured
they'd get
well it's a valid
point but I'm
gonna have to leave
it at that thanks
for calling and
thanks to everybody
else who called
and we're just
about out of time
here on WBAI
Bob Fass is up
next and Andrew
Phillips may or
may not be back
in two weeks I
might be filling in
for him then too
I'm not quite
certain and we'll
see how the boy
that's after war
day isn't it
that's two days
after war day
or it used to be
called Martin Luther
King Day let's hope
it remains that way
yeah Emmanuel
Goldstein signing
off goodnight
everyone and peace
when you go home
today it's one day
off but on Monday
you call your
organization you
call the coalition
you call everybody
and you march on
to restart this war
we remind people
that this is part
of the Pacifica
Radio Foundation
that this is in
fact our mission
and that we belong
there in fact that's
what we were founded
to do
another war must
be prevented
so that tens of
thousands of persons
will not be added
to the list of war
victims
there have been
members here
speaking from the
Haitian community
from the Haitian
community
Korean representatives
from the student
community
from the African
American community
the Latin community
Ramsey Clark
has just finished
a major address
let's you and I
resolve now
that we will
persevere in this
effort until every
American soldier
is home from
the Persian Gulf
WBAI Pacifica Radio
is committed to
a peaceful resolution
for the conflict
in the Persian Gulf
join us in this
effort on three
special occasions
in January
on Sunday the 13th
for a live teach-in
on the Gulf crisis
on Saturday the 19th
for all day coverage
of the March on Washington
and again on the 26th
for a second march
and rally against the war
WBAI Pacifica Radio
committed to peace
for 30 years
how many roads
must a man walk down
before you call him a man
how many seas
must the white dove sail
before she sleeps in the sand
isn't how many times
must the cannonballs fly
before they're full
river band
the answer my friend
is blowing in the wind
the answer
may be your name
the inspector
will study
next we'll find
the湯
will study
last year
verse
you
the
even
onto the
TONI
whoa
so
the
woman
that I
seek the
lake
is being
aware
of the
field
and
women
come up
be
the
same
as
I
call