Off The Hook - 1991-04-24
[00:02.340 --> 00:06.900] [SPEAKER_00]: On Saturday, April 27th, the conference will begin at 10 a.m.
[00:07.200 --> 00:09.580] [SPEAKER_00]: Special guest speaker will be Shokwe Lumumba.
[00:09.800 --> 00:15.580] [SPEAKER_00]: The event will take place at the Harriet Tubman School, 250 West 127th Street in Harlem.
[00:15.820 --> 00:22.020] [SPEAKER_00]: For tickets, journal ads, vendor space, please call 212-222-9640.
[00:22.440 --> 00:26.260] [SPEAKER_00]: This has been a public service announcement for the New African People's Organization.
[00:54.060 --> 01:01.620] [SPEAKER_02]: We couldn't get much worse, but Bombiddley Bomb, but I best expect the worst.
[01:02.260 --> 01:05.100] [SPEAKER_02]: I hope that's understood, Bombiddley Bomb.
[01:57.310 --> 01:59.130] [SPEAKER_04]: All right, all right, we're here.
[01:59.390 --> 02:01.550] [SPEAKER_04]: Sorry for all the delays and dead air.
[02:01.710 --> 02:04.450] [SPEAKER_04]: This is Emmanuel Goldstein with Off the Hook.
[02:04.890 --> 02:07.650] [SPEAKER_04]: And we have a special program for you tonight.
[02:08.130 --> 02:10.590] [SPEAKER_04]: And as part of a clue, here's a bit of music.
[02:12.650 --> 02:14.530] [SPEAKER_04]: We'll be back in a couple of minutes.
[05:38.920 --> 05:40.460] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, I think we get the idea here.
[05:41.640 --> 05:46.800] [SPEAKER_04]: That's music from many years ago from a band called Focus, a band out of Holland.
[05:47.680 --> 05:53.820] [SPEAKER_04]: And tonight, on Off the Hook, we'll be speaking to a bunch of Dutch hackers.
[06:19.650 --> 06:35.270] [SPEAKER_04]: But before we do that, as we usually do on this radio program, we're going to check what's happening in the world of technology and the abuses thereof, and the uses that many of us can profit and be penalized by.
[06:37.190 --> 06:39.610] [SPEAKER_04]: And if you want more information on that, stay tuned.
[06:46.890 --> 06:57.790] [SPEAKER_04]: A local magazine in Ottawa reports that a student at Carleton University used the touch-tone registration system to deregister another student from all her courses.
[06:58.610 --> 06:59.610] [SPEAKER_04]: Nasty business.
[06:59.610 --> 07:09.350] [SPEAKER_04]: Apart from the political interests, the alleged practical joker, after all, is the son of the Governor-General, there is another story of ill-conceived computer security.
[07:11.590 --> 07:17.270] [SPEAKER_04]: When you enroll at Carleton, you are issued a student ID number and a student card with the number displayed.
[07:17.450 --> 07:26.190] [SPEAKER_04]: And since the card is used to get into pubs and to get discounts at off-campus bookstores, your ID number is effectively public knowledge.
[07:26.870 --> 07:30.370] [SPEAKER_04]: The touch-tone system responds to your ID number and a password.
[07:30.610 --> 07:33.290] [SPEAKER_04]: The password is your day and month of birth.
[07:33.290 --> 07:35.550] [SPEAKER_04]: And no, you can't change it.
[07:46.310 --> 08:01.630] [SPEAKER_04]: And in the hacker world, according to the papers of April 15th, Kevin Paulson, known as Dark Dante, has finally been caught after 15 months under a variety of computer fraud charges.
[08:02.220 --> 08:06.490] [SPEAKER_04]: He was caught while entering the canned vegetables section of a supermarket in Los Angeles.
[08:07.070 --> 08:16.050] [SPEAKER_04]: Paulson and co-defendants Robert Gilligan and Mark Lotter were charged with using stolen Pacific Bell access codes to invade a U.S.
[08:16.350 --> 08:26.210] [SPEAKER_04]: Army computer network, eavesdrop on telephone security personnel, and obtain information used in an FBI investigation of former Philippine President Ferdinand Marcos.
[08:26.410 --> 08:31.630] [SPEAKER_04]: That's according to Richard Held, special agent in charge of the FBI's San Francisco office.
[08:31.870 --> 08:40.850] [SPEAKER_04]: Gilligan has pleaded guilty to one count of illegally obtaining telephone access codes, and he's agreed to cooperate with the authorities.
[08:41.970 --> 08:45.750] [SPEAKER_04]: Lauder pleaded not guilty and declined a similar plea bargain, officials said.
[08:55.900 --> 09:01.180] [SPEAKER_04]: Also on Monday, April 15th, a truck containing thousands of dollars' worth of U.S.
[09:01.330 --> 09:10.160] [SPEAKER_04]: government forms, stationery, and supplies, 250 line items, as it happened, was delivered to the U.S.
[09:10.440 --> 09:12.080] [SPEAKER_04]: District Court in Burlington, Vermont.
[09:12.760 --> 09:20.920] [SPEAKER_04]: And at about the same time, five small items ordered by the court were delivered to the U.S.
[09:21.080 --> 09:22.500] [SPEAKER_04]: Mint in San Francisco.
[09:23.680 --> 09:25.440] [SPEAKER_04]: And neither office got what it needed.
[09:28.120 --> 09:29.200] [SPEAKER_04]: How did this happen?
[09:29.260 --> 09:39.760] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, it turned out on further investigation that there is a very large flaw in the computerized ordering system the General Services Administration uses for government offices to enter their supply orders.
[09:40.900 --> 09:45.220] [SPEAKER_04]: When logging in, the user is required to enter a location code and a password.
[09:45.340 --> 09:55.000] [SPEAKER_04]: However, it seems that the program never bothered to check whether the password, which was, of course, valid, corresponded to the location code that was entered.
[09:55.380 --> 10:10.100] [SPEAKER_04]: Thus, anyone who has access to this system could literally cause millions of dollars of equipment to be shipped and billed to another agency, which doesn't need or want it, without anyone being the wiser, until the trucks pull in.
[10:11.120 --> 10:18.420] [SPEAKER_04]: And the cause of the error, well, a single letter in the location code was changed from a C to a D.
[10:19.570 --> 10:21.860] [SPEAKER_04]: And I would give them an F in planning.
[10:23.880 --> 10:24.980] [SPEAKER_04]: New technology?
[10:25.200 --> 10:26.960] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, we've got some new technology for you.
[10:28.310 --> 10:37.830] [SPEAKER_04]: The local CBC morning show in Ottawa had an interview with a Volkswagen of Canada representative about a car that supposedly parallel parks itself.
[10:38.840 --> 10:43.180] [SPEAKER_04]: The representative said the car is a test prototype built by Volkswagen of America.
[10:43.180 --> 10:51.330] [SPEAKER_04]: It can sense whether a parking space is large enough and place itself in the spot with only inches to spare on either side.
[10:52.400 --> 10:54.680] [SPEAKER_04]: The driver does not need to be in the car.
[10:56.300 --> 11:03.060] [SPEAKER_04]: The proximity sensors used for this can also be used while driving to ensure the car does not get too close to other cars.
[11:04.560 --> 11:19.020] [SPEAKER_04]: And this person that submitted this to the RISC's computer digest says, I wonder who would be liable if the car software bashed the next car while parking, or if it ran over a cat, dog, or child on its approach.
[11:20.220 --> 11:25.520] [SPEAKER_04]: One would think the location and range of the sensors would be very important.
[11:36.710 --> 11:52.570] [SPEAKER_04]: This notice dated April 18th, 1991, the Computer Emergency Response Team Coordination Center, known as CERT, has received several incident reports concerning users receiving requests to take an action that results in the capturing of their password.
[11:53.230 --> 11:58.190] [SPEAKER_04]: The request could come in the form of an email message, a broadcast, or a telephone call.
[11:59.050 --> 12:06.230] [SPEAKER_04]: The latest ploy instructs the user to run a test program, previously installed by the intruder, which will prompt the user for his or her password.
[12:08.530 --> 12:15.370] [SPEAKER_04]: When the user executes the program, the user's name and password are emailed to a remote site.
[12:16.950 --> 12:24.790] [SPEAKER_04]: These messages can appear to be from a site administrator, or from Root, which is the main user of a Unix computer system.
[12:25.710 --> 12:27.290] [SPEAKER_04]: The most powerful user.
[12:28.210 --> 12:30.870] [SPEAKER_04]: The one that can do anything.
[12:34.790 --> 12:43.670] [SPEAKER_04]: In reality, though, they may have been sent by an individual at a remote site who is trying to gain access or additional access to the local machine via the user's account.
[12:43.750 --> 12:46.010] [SPEAKER_04]: Hey, it could be sent from a Dutch hacker.
[12:47.770 --> 12:55.170] [SPEAKER_04]: An intruder can gain access to a system through the unauthorized use of the possibly privileged accounts whose passwords have been compromised.
[12:55.430 --> 13:00.190] [SPEAKER_04]: This problem could affect all systems, not just Unix systems or systems on the internet.
[13:11.610 --> 13:16.690] [SPEAKER_04]: And such notices are coming our way quite frequently.
[13:16.830 --> 13:23.130] [SPEAKER_04]: In fact, there was one around April 1st saying, beware of April Fool's messages.
[13:23.370 --> 13:31.950] [SPEAKER_04]: And it came from one of the main people on the internet that advises people not to fall for any nonsense.
[13:32.490 --> 13:38.250] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, it turns out the message that was sent advising people not to pay attention to false messages was indeed false itself.
[13:39.850 --> 13:43.010] [SPEAKER_04]: And the name of this person had been inserted somehow.
[13:46.940 --> 13:54.100] [SPEAKER_04]: For those of you that think computers can't be fun, well, there's a whole world of things going on out there that you just would not believe.
[13:57.830 --> 13:58.750] [SPEAKER_04]: How about this?
[13:59.410 --> 14:04.370] [SPEAKER_04]: University of Illinois Library, like most other university libraries, is completely computerized.
[14:04.750 --> 14:14.130] [SPEAKER_04]: Terminals in each of the three dozen departmental libraries, as well as other terminals and residence halls, and a dedicated telnet port on one of the university's Unix systems.
[14:14.410 --> 14:20.950] [SPEAKER_04]: It allows anyone to browse through the 12 million book collection and check out any available book.
[14:21.310 --> 14:25.170] [SPEAKER_04]: Now, this is mighty convenient for us busy students and researchers.
[14:25.390 --> 14:28.430] [SPEAKER_04]: Unfortunately, this is also security free.
[14:28.850 --> 14:39.190] [SPEAKER_04]: From a terminal or telnet connection, one can check out a book merely by giving one's university ID number, which, at Illinois, is always one's social security number.
[14:39.490 --> 14:51.390] [SPEAKER_04]: Then, one can go to the appropriate central or departmental library, where library staff regularly retrieve books from the stacks to catch, to match, rather, computer charge requests.
[14:51.730 --> 15:04.610] [SPEAKER_04]: And you can go there and you can say something like, I charged out a book called The Adventures of Fubar the Dancing Bear, a couple of hours ago, upon which the librarian will cheerfully hand you the book in question without checking your ID.
[15:07.290 --> 15:11.150] [SPEAKER_04]: Since the charge has already been processed by the central computer.
[15:13.330 --> 15:18.190] [SPEAKER_04]: Obviously, one is free to use whomever's ID or social security number one pleases.
[15:19.130 --> 15:29.390] [SPEAKER_04]: Incidentally, when I checked out a book this afternoon from our engineering library, the librarian had the book in hand when he suddenly looked at me suspiciously and asked, what's your ID number?
[15:31.130 --> 15:32.550] [SPEAKER_04]: I rattled it off.
[15:33.390 --> 15:38.710] [SPEAKER_04]: He checked it against the computer printout and, satisfied, gave me the book.
[15:40.770 --> 15:50.630] [SPEAKER_04]: Of course, the minimum fine for a non-return book is $50, which, like an overdue fine, is automatically billed to one's student accounts receivable.
[15:56.040 --> 16:03.540] [SPEAKER_04]: Almost any computer system that's out there has a fatal flaw of some sort, and it's up to us to find them.
[16:05.280 --> 16:13.500] [SPEAKER_04]: These excerpts come to you from the Risks Digest, which is available as the news group comp.risks on the internet.
[16:13.520 --> 16:17.520] [SPEAKER_04]: And if you don't know what that means, well, it doesn't really matter anyway, because you probably wouldn't be able to read it.
[16:18.660 --> 16:22.200] [SPEAKER_04]: But if you tune into this program, you'll hear excerpts of it occasionally.
[16:24.060 --> 16:31.880] [SPEAKER_04]: Now, to get to the story at hand, which is something that you may have noticed on the front page of the New York Times this Sunday.
[16:32.260 --> 16:34.580] [SPEAKER_04]: A story about Dutch computer hackers.
[16:35.540 --> 16:37.040] [SPEAKER_04]: Let's take a quick look at that story.
[16:41.520 --> 16:49.940] [SPEAKER_04]: A group of Dutch computer intruders have been openly defying United States military space and intelligence authorities for almost six months.
[16:52.540 --> 16:56.280] [SPEAKER_04]: And recently, they broke into a U.S.
[16:56.420 --> 16:59.800] [SPEAKER_04]: military computer while being filmed by a crew from Dutch television.
[17:00.960 --> 17:10.860] [SPEAKER_04]: The intruders working over local telephone lines that enabled them to tap American computer networks at almost no cost have not done serious damage, federal investigators say.
[17:11.280 --> 17:15.160] [SPEAKER_04]: And they have not penetrated the most secure government computer systems.
[17:16.920 --> 17:34.820] [SPEAKER_04]: But they have entered a wide range of computers, including those at the Kennedy Space Center, the Pentagon's Pacific Fleet Command, the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, and Stanford University via an international computer network known as the Internet.
[17:37.280 --> 17:49.720] [SPEAKER_04]: And while the information on these systems is not classified, the computers store a great variety of material, including routine memorandums, unpublished reports, and data from experiments.
[17:52.720 --> 17:59.260] [SPEAKER_04]: Federal officials said the group had tampered with some information stored on systems they have illegally entered.
[18:05.030 --> 18:05.870] [SPEAKER_04]: U.S.
[18:05.950 --> 18:17.130] [SPEAKER_04]: government officials said that they had been tracking the interlopers, but that no arrests had been made because there are no legal restrictions in the Netherlands, barring unauthorized computer access.
[18:18.450 --> 18:24.230] [SPEAKER_04]: A reporter's efforts to reach Dutch government officials for comment have been unsuccessful.
[18:25.970 --> 18:37.850] [SPEAKER_04]: And according to Gail Thackeray, a former Arizona Assistant Attorney General, who has prosecuted computer crimes, this has been a terrible problem.
[18:38.170 --> 18:41.850] [SPEAKER_04]: Until recently, there have been few countries that have computer crime laws.
[18:47.050 --> 18:51.490] [SPEAKER_04]: I imagine she meant that they have not had computer crime laws.
[18:53.150 --> 19:03.110] [SPEAKER_04]: She said that just as offshore banks in certain countries have traditionally protected financial privacy, today some countries protect intellectual property violations.
[19:04.490 --> 19:11.590] [SPEAKER_04]: American law enforcement officials said they believed there were three or four members of the Dutch group, but would not release any names.
[19:12.990 --> 19:27.230] [SPEAKER_04]: A Dutch television news report in February showed a member of the group at the University of Utrecht, reading information off a computer screen, showing what he said was missile test information, taken electronically from a U.S.
[19:27.370 --> 19:28.170] [SPEAKER_04]: military computer.
[19:29.150 --> 19:32.850] [SPEAKER_04]: His back was to the camera, and he was not named.
[19:33.770 --> 19:35.730] [SPEAKER_04]: Don't forget we were in a war then, too.
[19:37.810 --> 19:53.610] [SPEAKER_04]: Military and intelligence agencies physically separate classified computer networks from those used by businesses and researchers to protect the data from electronic forays, but when classified information is transmitted over unprotected computer networks or telephone lines,
[19:53.750 --> 19:55.090] [SPEAKER_04]: it must be specially coded.
[19:56.150 --> 20:08.110] [SPEAKER_04]: Because there are no computer crime laws in the Netherlands, American investigators said members of the Dutch group boasted that they could enter computers via international data networks with impunity.
[20:09.270 --> 20:22.830] [SPEAKER_04]: But some of the intruders have been identified, and a federal official who spoke on the condition of anonymity said there were numerous other criminal offenses for which they could be prosecuted in both the United States and the Netherlands.
[20:24.350 --> 20:38.170] [SPEAKER_04]: One possible charge might be telephone fraud, but legal experts said that because there are no prohibitions against unauthorized computer entry in the Netherlands, successfully prosecuting the group may still prove impossible.
[20:40.710 --> 20:52.370] [SPEAKER_04]: The case is significant, legal experts said, because while the United States and many European countries have strict laws barring illegal access to computers, there are many nations that have no computer crime laws.
[20:54.490 --> 20:59.550] [SPEAKER_04]: There is a proposed law before parliament in the Netherlands that would make unauthorized computer access a crime.
[20:59.770 --> 21:05.730] [SPEAKER_04]: Also, a governmental committee of the European community is now working to standardize computer crime laws in Europe.
[21:06.950 --> 21:16.050] [SPEAKER_04]: Because computer networks are accessible from anywhere in the world via a telephone call, they are potentially vulnerable to those who cannot easily be prosecuted or convicted of a crime.
[21:22.140 --> 21:27.520] [SPEAKER_04]: And a report that incidentally came from the New York Times story on Sunday by John Markov.
[21:27.520 --> 21:39.200] [SPEAKER_04]: This from AP writer Jerome Saklowski, about the Dutch hackers who, as reported by John Markov, have been breaking into various internet sites by using the usual tricks.
[21:40.040 --> 21:48.480] [SPEAKER_04]: Quotes Martin Rook, director of economics and personnel at Utrecht University, is saying about the sites broken into, they should take care of their own secrets.
[21:48.800 --> 21:52.540] [SPEAKER_04]: If they don't want to be called, they shouldn't be hooked up to the system.
[21:55.550 --> 22:00.670] [SPEAKER_04]: And this person on the Risk's Digest equates that with blaming the victim again.
[22:01.830 --> 22:08.590] [SPEAKER_04]: Should a site whose officials show this kind of disregard for the common good of the network using community be allowed to stay on the internet?
[22:08.990 --> 22:13.690] [SPEAKER_04]: It is Utrecht, not the victims, who should not be allowed the benefits of the network.
[22:14.470 --> 22:21.450] [SPEAKER_04]: At least until its officials become more responsible and enforce rules of civilized network use, laws or no laws.
[22:21.450 --> 22:23.350] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, enough of this.
[22:23.410 --> 22:35.410] [SPEAKER_04]: We have some of the people allegedly responsible for this whole thing on the telephone with us, live from Holland.
[22:35.570 --> 22:37.750] [SPEAKER_04]: And let's see, is there anybody there from Holland?
[22:40.470 --> 22:40.990] [SPEAKER_04]: Hello?
[22:41.390 --> 22:41.650] [SPEAKER_04]: Hello.
[22:41.870 --> 22:42.890] [SPEAKER_04]: Ah, we have somebody.
[22:43.030 --> 22:44.510] [SPEAKER_04]: Now, what would you like to go by?
[22:44.630 --> 22:46.710] [SPEAKER_04]: What's your handle or name?
[22:47.050 --> 22:48.090] [SPEAKER_05]: Just call me Bart.
[22:48.410 --> 22:48.830] [SPEAKER_04]: Bart?
[22:49.070 --> 22:49.530] [SPEAKER_04]: Bart.
[22:49.530 --> 22:50.690] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, Bart.
[22:51.170 --> 22:53.430] [SPEAKER_04]: You heard the story that we just read here.
[22:53.550 --> 22:56.130] [SPEAKER_04]: Now, are you one of the people involved in this?
[22:56.730 --> 22:57.550] [SPEAKER_12]: Yes, I am.
[22:57.710 --> 22:58.010] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[22:58.430 --> 23:03.490] [SPEAKER_04]: Explain to us and to our listeners exactly what's going on.
[23:04.850 --> 23:11.790] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, first of all, everybody's talking about some close-knit group who's trying to break into internet and stuff.
[23:12.310 --> 23:13.310] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, that's not true.
[23:14.870 --> 23:19.170] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I, for myself, have been hacking on internet and some other people, too.
[23:19.390 --> 23:21.450] [SPEAKER_01]: But there's not a close connection between us.
[23:21.590 --> 23:26.150] [SPEAKER_01]: And we're certainly not a group of what they call computer criminals.
[23:29.010 --> 23:29.490] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[23:29.550 --> 23:32.830] [SPEAKER_04]: Now, can you give us specifics as to what it was you folks found?
[23:35.050 --> 23:36.830] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, we found a lot.
[23:37.150 --> 23:51.910] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, the system that was shown on TV was apparently a test site for the Navy, and it had some testing data and testing programs on it.
[23:52.670 --> 23:57.690] [SPEAKER_01]: And they told on TV that it was missile data and stuff.
[23:58.410 --> 24:02.770] [SPEAKER_01]: But just testing data, and it was not for real.
[24:03.690 --> 24:09.470] [SPEAKER_04]: But with this information, you could certainly gain quite a bit of knowledge as to how the military is operating, right?
[24:10.470 --> 24:11.110] Yeah, probably.
[24:12.890 --> 24:14.170] [SPEAKER_04]: Now, how easy?
[24:14.530 --> 24:15.890] [SPEAKER_04]: How long have you been hacking for?
[24:17.030 --> 24:18.290] [SPEAKER_01]: For that particular system?
[24:18.450 --> 24:19.310] [SPEAKER_04]: No, just in general.
[24:20.450 --> 24:21.810] [SPEAKER_01]: For about three years or something.
[24:22.070 --> 24:24.690] [SPEAKER_04]: How easy would you rate this?
[24:24.730 --> 24:28.970] [SPEAKER_04]: Is this one of the harder hacks that you've done, or is this something relatively easy?
[24:30.090 --> 24:30.850] [SPEAKER_01]: Relatively easy.
[24:31.150 --> 24:31.870] [SPEAKER_04]: Relatively easy.
[24:31.990 --> 24:34.230] [SPEAKER_04]: Now, how were you able to make your connections?
[24:34.430 --> 24:35.110] [SPEAKER_04]: Through the internet?
[24:36.170 --> 24:37.350] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we used the internet.
[24:37.650 --> 24:41.010] [SPEAKER_01]: And they said we used telephone fraud.
[24:41.110 --> 24:41.630] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, we didn't.
[24:41.690 --> 24:42.570] [SPEAKER_01]: We just used the internet.
[24:43.050 --> 24:43.910] [SPEAKER_04]: They said you used what?
[24:45.210 --> 24:49.470] [SPEAKER_01]: You just said that people said we were using telephone fraud.
[24:49.590 --> 24:51.690] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, that's not true, because we were only using internet.
[24:52.150 --> 24:52.450] [SPEAKER_04]: Right.
[24:52.910 --> 24:56.130] [SPEAKER_04]: So you were able to make this whole connection to the U.S.
[24:56.210 --> 24:58.590] [SPEAKER_04]: military at the price of a local call to you?
[24:59.070 --> 24:59.830] [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, that's true.
[24:59.830 --> 25:07.550] [SPEAKER_04]: And without breaking any telephone laws, anyway, without charging phone calls to anybody, you were able to just make a connection.
[25:07.550 --> 25:09.150] [SPEAKER_04]: That's how the internet works.
[25:09.150 --> 25:13.730] [SPEAKER_04]: You can connect all over the world, and it's amazingly fast and convenient.
[25:15.590 --> 25:20.070] [SPEAKER_04]: Now, do you have a sense that there was a lot more that you have not yet gotten into that you could have gotten into?
[25:21.490 --> 25:22.490] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think so.
[25:23.670 --> 25:24.190] [SPEAKER_04]: Uh-huh.
[25:24.630 --> 25:31.890] [SPEAKER_04]: What's your reaction to those people that want to prosecute you here in this country that say, well, you're invading U.S.
[25:32.270 --> 25:35.850] [SPEAKER_04]: military computers, and you shouldn't be able to get away with that?
[25:35.990 --> 25:37.410] [SPEAKER_04]: What do you say to that?
[25:38.210 --> 25:45.730] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's bullshit, because a lot of the systems I've been on either had poor security, or they even had a guest account open.
[25:45.730 --> 25:49.430] [SPEAKER_01]: And as the name implies, I mean guest, a guest account, is for guests.
[25:49.510 --> 25:53.810] [SPEAKER_01]: And when I consider myself guest on the system, then I don't consider myself a criminal.
[25:54.230 --> 25:55.610] [SPEAKER_01]: So I shouldn't be prosecuted.
[25:55.950 --> 26:00.950] [SPEAKER_04]: Now, these are accounts where the username was guest, and the password was guest as well.
[26:01.230 --> 26:01.730] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, right.
[26:01.990 --> 26:04.370] [SPEAKER_04]: And that makes you a guest of the system, but you had full privileges?
[26:04.370 --> 26:05.710] [SPEAKER_04]: You could wander anywhere you wanted?
[26:06.450 --> 26:07.690] [SPEAKER_01]: Not in the beginning, no.
[26:08.770 --> 26:09.070] [SPEAKER_04]: Uh-huh.
[26:09.070 --> 26:11.030] [SPEAKER_04]: You were able to modify things so you could wander.
[26:12.150 --> 26:13.630] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I worked off my privilege.
[26:14.030 --> 26:17.850] [SPEAKER_01]: But that doesn't mean that I... That's what I like to set straight to.
[26:18.050 --> 26:22.350] [SPEAKER_01]: Some people said that we were destroying or deleting things.
[26:22.890 --> 26:28.470] [SPEAKER_01]: But in all the time that I've hacked, I've never destroyed or deleted data from computer systems.
[26:29.610 --> 26:29.870] [SPEAKER_04]: Uh-huh.
[26:32.230 --> 26:38.290] [SPEAKER_04]: Now, as far as the kinds of computers that you used, which would you say is the most insecure?
[26:38.290 --> 26:39.630] [SPEAKER_04]: Is there any particular kind?
[26:39.730 --> 26:42.210] [SPEAKER_04]: Unix systems or VAC systems or what?
[26:42.490 --> 26:44.110] [SPEAKER_01]: I specialize in Unix systems.
[26:44.410 --> 26:44.930] [SPEAKER_01]: So, yeah.
[26:45.330 --> 26:45.810] [SPEAKER_01]: They're insecure.
[26:46.510 --> 26:46.750] [SPEAKER_04]: Uh-huh.
[26:47.650 --> 26:54.810] [SPEAKER_04]: And have things gotten any tighter over the last couple of years, or is it just as wide open as it was, you know, years ago?
[26:55.610 --> 26:56.710] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, not really.
[26:56.870 --> 27:01.150] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, there have been tighter on password security a bit.
[27:01.810 --> 27:09.790] [SPEAKER_01]: But you still have systems where the AccountCast is open, or where people log in with a username and a username and a sponsor.
[27:10.630 --> 27:10.950] [SPEAKER_04]: Uh-huh.
[27:13.090 --> 27:14.270] [SPEAKER_04]: We've got a question for you here.
[27:14.370 --> 27:20.490] [SPEAKER_04]: Did you use the SurfNet directories, which are directories available in Holland, public directories?
[27:21.770 --> 27:23.090] [SPEAKER_01]: What do you mean with using them?
[27:24.710 --> 27:25.790] [SPEAKER_01]: Using the link, you mean?
[27:26.030 --> 27:26.350] [SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
[27:26.930 --> 27:27.330] [SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
[27:27.530 --> 27:28.750] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, use that as a link, then.
[27:29.870 --> 27:30.850] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I did, yeah.
[27:30.850 --> 27:31.270] [SPEAKER_04]: I see.
[27:31.570 --> 27:34.530] [SPEAKER_04]: Could you explain how that works for us over here in America?
[27:34.650 --> 27:35.510] [SPEAKER_04]: What is SurfNet?
[27:35.630 --> 27:36.470] [SPEAKER_04]: What exactly does it do?
[27:37.030 --> 27:39.270] [SPEAKER_01]: SurfNet is a university network.
[27:41.570 --> 27:45.650] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a connection between all kinds of Dutch university computers.
[27:46.150 --> 27:52.590] [SPEAKER_01]: And it gives students the opportunity to communicate with other universities all around the world.
[27:52.890 --> 27:53.190] [SPEAKER_04]: Uh-huh.
[27:53.710 --> 27:55.610] [SPEAKER_04]: Now, you're over there in Holland.
[27:55.650 --> 27:58.470] [SPEAKER_04]: You don't have any laws against hacking.
[27:59.530 --> 28:02.370] [SPEAKER_04]: Do you envision that going on for much longer?
[28:03.410 --> 28:06.930] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, you mean that no hacking laws are set up?
[28:07.050 --> 28:07.350] [SPEAKER_04]: Right.
[28:08.290 --> 28:09.390] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, I think so.
[28:09.390 --> 28:16.050] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, uh, what, I don't understand how the, uh, the United States can, uh, prohibit hacking.
[28:16.930 --> 28:19.370] [SPEAKER_04]: You mean prohibit hacking in our country, or?
[28:19.810 --> 28:20.610] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, in your country.
[28:21.190 --> 28:32.110] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, uh, it's, it's done under, under the guise of, uh, of wire fraud, of saying that you're somebody you're not when you're logging into a, uh, computer system, crossing state lines, making a federal law.
[28:32.110 --> 28:45.870] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well, uh, if I am logging in as a, uh, guest, for example, I'm identifying myself as a guest, and I'm not committing any phone fraud, and I'm not, uh, certainly not, uh, making somebody believe that I'm somebody I'm not.
[28:46.050 --> 28:47.970] [SPEAKER_04]: What if you look at classified data?
[28:48.070 --> 28:49.090] [SPEAKER_04]: What's your view about that?
[28:49.870 --> 28:52.550] [SPEAKER_04]: The fact that it's wide open, does that, does that change anything?
[28:53.530 --> 29:00.670] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think it's pretty stupid to, uh, to put classified data on a computer that's, uh, hooked up to a network, a public network.
[29:01.870 --> 29:02.270] [SPEAKER_12]: Uh-huh.
[29:02.510 --> 29:06.450] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, if it's, if it's so classified, they should keep it away from the network.
[29:07.690 --> 29:13.310] [SPEAKER_04]: Give us a sense of, I'm sorry, give us a sense of how, how much information you were privy to.
[29:13.450 --> 29:15.050] [SPEAKER_04]: What kind of things could you have seen?
[29:15.170 --> 29:16.270] [SPEAKER_04]: What kind of things did you see?
[29:17.510 --> 29:19.170] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, yeah, so all kind of things.
[29:19.370 --> 29:22.030] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, memos from, uh, different users.
[29:22.610 --> 29:33.750] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, uh, sometimes, uh, corporations, uh, private stuff, uh, um, uh, name it.
[29:34.170 --> 29:34.470] [SPEAKER_04]: Uh-huh.
[29:35.130 --> 29:41.850] [SPEAKER_04]: And, uh, if you were a nasty hacker, if you were, you know, somebody that, that destroyed systems, what do you think you could have done?
[29:42.570 --> 29:45.630] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, first of all, a nasty hacker isn't a hacker for me.
[29:45.830 --> 29:47.510] [SPEAKER_01]: Because somebody who destroyed things isn't a hacker.
[29:47.510 --> 29:49.230] [SPEAKER_01]: Or, uh, what if I, uh, wanted to?
[29:49.750 --> 29:53.690] [SPEAKER_01]: I could have, for example, uh, wiped out, uh, several army computers.
[29:54.110 --> 29:59.710] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, I could have wiped out, uh, uh, entire universities.
[30:00.210 --> 30:08.910] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, I could have wiped out, um, all kinds of, uh, experimental data on, uh, army computers.
[30:08.910 --> 30:23.610] [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh,
[30:23.610 --> 30:46.450] [SPEAKER_04]: uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh A bit, yeah.
[30:46.810 --> 30:52.290] [SPEAKER_01]: And I still think it's not a solution to prohibit hacking.
[30:52.850 --> 30:56.690] [SPEAKER_01]: Because, as you already said, then the people will only go underground.
[30:58.290 --> 31:01.770] [SPEAKER_01]: I experienced it for myself in the beginning when I hacked the system.
[31:02.010 --> 31:15.310] [SPEAKER_01]: And a few days or a few weeks later, if I contacted the system administrator, the first few times you try to contact the system administrator to tell him how you hacked the system, what you did exactly.
[31:16.310 --> 31:24.010] [SPEAKER_01]: But since, especially in America, they're not interested in how you did it or what happened to the system or if the system is secure or whatever.
[31:24.350 --> 31:30.450] [SPEAKER_01]: They're just interested in calling the FBI, playing detective or something.
[31:30.990 --> 31:34.270] [SPEAKER_04]: So you don't see a genuine interest in actually securing the systems?
[31:34.730 --> 31:35.970] [SPEAKER_01]: No, not at all.
[31:35.970 --> 31:43.610] [SPEAKER_04]: Did you ever contact somebody and say, hey, your system is wide open and be met with a less than enthusiastic response?
[31:44.750 --> 31:45.270] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[31:45.430 --> 31:49.590] [SPEAKER_01]: In the beginning when I was hacking, I contacted a few system administrators.
[31:50.850 --> 31:54.310] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, your system is not completely safe.
[31:54.530 --> 31:55.650] [SPEAKER_01]: There's a bug there and there.
[31:56.190 --> 31:58.790] [SPEAKER_01]: I came in via the net account.
[31:59.690 --> 32:02.170] [SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes they reacted okay.
[32:02.790 --> 32:07.770] [SPEAKER_01]: But most of the times, they were just only interested in trying to buzz me or something.
[32:09.990 --> 32:20.270] [SPEAKER_01]: And I even, with some systems, where I got a bad reaction from the system administrator, the system was still wide open a few months later.
[32:20.930 --> 32:22.590] [SPEAKER_04]: Now, how widespread is this in Holland?
[32:22.690 --> 32:24.470] [SPEAKER_04]: How many people do you think are involved in this kind of thing?
[32:25.710 --> 32:27.470] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not very sure.
[32:27.670 --> 32:30.030] [SPEAKER_01]: Like I said before, it's not a group that's doing it.
[32:30.350 --> 32:34.370] [SPEAKER_01]: There are some people which are very loosely connected.
[32:35.370 --> 32:40.210] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that in Holland, maybe five or six people are doing it.
[32:40.670 --> 32:41.770] [SPEAKER_04]: Only five or six?
[32:41.770 --> 32:45.970] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well, on that particular part of the internet.
[32:46.390 --> 32:47.010] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean...
[32:47.010 --> 32:48.810] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, a little bit more in general.
[32:49.090 --> 32:54.490] [SPEAKER_04]: How many people are out there exploring the vast universe of computer systems tied to the internet?
[32:55.590 --> 32:57.070] [SPEAKER_01]: I think a few hundred.
[32:57.670 --> 33:04.090] [SPEAKER_04]: Do you think Holland is very unique as far as being the only country that does this?
[33:04.090 --> 33:06.510] [SPEAKER_04]: Or are people in Germany, England, are they doing it too?
[33:06.970 --> 33:10.330] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, people in Germany are doing it too.
[33:10.330 --> 33:12.570] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think there are some people in England who are also doing it.
[33:12.790 --> 33:17.670] [SPEAKER_04]: Now, there's a big difference there because there are pretty strict laws in Germany and England.
[33:17.850 --> 33:18.050] [SPEAKER_04]: Am I right?
[33:18.590 --> 33:19.370] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, right.
[33:19.550 --> 33:24.310] [SPEAKER_01]: But I think that in those countries, hacking is going more and more underground.
[33:25.090 --> 33:28.850] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, in Holland, it's much more open.
[33:29.010 --> 33:37.630] [SPEAKER_01]: And for people who are interested in it, it's much more easy to get information on it from both sides, from system administrator sites and from hacker sites.
[33:38.430 --> 33:43.710] [SPEAKER_04]: Now, if it was suddenly outlawed tomorrow in Holland, would you be able to continue doing what you're doing?
[33:43.850 --> 33:48.410] [SPEAKER_04]: Do you have enough knowledge to be able to just keep doing it underground and not be caught?
[33:49.550 --> 33:50.510] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think so.
[33:50.690 --> 33:56.710] [SPEAKER_01]: But I think it would be a very bad thing when it would be outlawed.
[33:57.870 --> 33:58.470] [SPEAKER_12]: Uh-huh.
[33:59.610 --> 34:02.090] [SPEAKER_04]: Now, I've got a specific question here.
[34:03.870 --> 34:14.290] [SPEAKER_04]: It's alleged that you became Root, which is kind of a technical term for people that might not be fully into all this, at a particular academic computer.
[34:14.530 --> 34:16.510] [SPEAKER_04]: Are you at liberty to tell us which one that was?
[34:18.350 --> 34:19.570] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, which one do you mean?
[34:20.170 --> 34:21.690] [SPEAKER_04]: You became Root at several then?
[34:22.010 --> 34:22.350] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[34:22.870 --> 34:23.370] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[34:23.770 --> 34:24.750] [SPEAKER_04]: You want to name one or two?
[34:24.890 --> 34:25.590] [SPEAKER_04]: That would be fine.
[34:28.270 --> 34:29.270] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not sure.
[34:30.730 --> 34:33.990] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not familiar with the names of the computers.
[34:34.510 --> 34:34.730] [SPEAKER_12]: Uh-huh.
[34:40.650 --> 34:45.350] [SPEAKER_01]: I've been Root on one in Los Angeles, I think.
[34:46.090 --> 34:47.910] [SPEAKER_04]: One in Los Angeles run by the military?
[34:49.230 --> 34:49.870] [SPEAKER_01]: No, no.
[34:49.930 --> 34:50.890] [SPEAKER_01]: That was just a university.
[34:50.890 --> 34:51.750] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, university.
[34:52.050 --> 34:52.310] [SPEAKER_04]: All right.
[34:53.350 --> 34:54.770] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well, several.
[34:54.990 --> 35:00.390] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, not just universities, but also, like, NET computers.
[35:03.310 --> 35:05.110] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not very good at names, but...
[35:05.110 --> 35:05.310] [SPEAKER_04]: Uh-huh.
[35:05.330 --> 35:10.670] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, now, just for the benefit of our non-technical listeners, you become Root at a particular computer.
[35:10.670 --> 35:11.850] [SPEAKER_04]: What does that enable you to do?
[35:12.830 --> 35:13.290] [SPEAKER_01]: Everything.
[35:13.750 --> 35:15.370] [SPEAKER_01]: When you're Root, you can do everything.
[35:15.370 --> 35:16.530] [SPEAKER_01]: You can change everything.
[35:17.210 --> 35:18.550] [SPEAKER_01]: You can see everything.
[35:19.030 --> 35:19.470] [SPEAKER_04]: Uh-huh.
[35:19.570 --> 35:24.210] [SPEAKER_01]: You can do everything with the system that the system operator can do, too.
[35:24.450 --> 35:29.730] [SPEAKER_04]: So if you gain Root access to a particular computer system, you can see every bit of data on that computer?
[35:30.010 --> 35:30.750] [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, I could.
[35:30.750 --> 35:31.550] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[35:32.830 --> 35:33.270] [SPEAKER_04]: Um...
[35:33.270 --> 35:42.030] [SPEAKER_04]: We want to open up the telephone lines for American hackers, I guess, who have specific questions for our Dutch friends here.
[35:42.170 --> 35:48.130] [SPEAKER_04]: Now, I'm not 100% certain that everybody's going to be able to hear each other, so we're going to try this out and see if it works.
[35:48.290 --> 35:50.790] [SPEAKER_04]: Our number is 212-279-3400.
[35:50.790 --> 35:58.630] [SPEAKER_04]: If you have a particular question for hackers over there in Holland, give us a call now, and we'll try to get you on.
[35:59.190 --> 36:09.010] [SPEAKER_04]: While we're waiting for that, though, is there a message that you, Bart, or any of the other hackers over there have for people here in this country that are interested in hacking in general?
[36:09.950 --> 36:18.370] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, when you're interested in hacking in general, you should try to export the computer systems you're interested in.
[36:19.450 --> 36:27.110] [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's a bad thing that it's illegal in the States, and I think that you should decide for yourself whether it's illegal or not.
[36:28.850 --> 36:36.190] [SPEAKER_01]: Because I think a lot of knowledge now in America is hidden because people are not allowed to use it.
[36:37.210 --> 36:39.990] [SPEAKER_01]: They're not allowed to use computer systems.
[36:40.230 --> 36:53.370] [SPEAKER_01]: And I've heard that even some people are afraid to use computer systems in a legal way because they're afraid they might get busted because people are thinking, or even if they're associated with hackers.
[36:53.970 --> 36:56.550] [SPEAKER_04]: And we've seen that happen over the last year, certainly.
[36:57.730 --> 37:11.290] [SPEAKER_04]: Now, for those of us that have never hacked, for those of us that have never actually logged into another computer system and explored, why don't you give us a step-by-step synopsis of what you would do?
[37:11.410 --> 37:18.670] [SPEAKER_04]: Now, you pick up your phone over there in Amsterdam or wherever you happen to be, and you make that phone call, and you get connected to a computer.
[37:18.810 --> 37:19.470] [SPEAKER_04]: What happens next?
[37:20.770 --> 37:23.430] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, first you try some default lock-ins.
[37:24.990 --> 37:30.950] [SPEAKER_01]: Whenever a computer is installed at a site, there are always some default passwords in it.
[37:31.070 --> 37:33.770] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, we're talking at the local level for you, though.
[37:33.850 --> 37:37.050] [SPEAKER_04]: Is there sort of a network that you can tie into just by calling up?
[37:37.290 --> 37:38.730] [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, the SurfNet.
[37:39.090 --> 37:40.610] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, so you call it the SurfNet.
[37:41.310 --> 37:43.150] [SPEAKER_04]: And are you able to subscribe to that?
[37:43.210 --> 37:44.070] [SPEAKER_04]: Is that open to everybody?
[37:44.650 --> 37:45.710] [SPEAKER_01]: It's open to everybody.
[37:46.010 --> 37:47.610] [SPEAKER_01]: You don't even have to subscribe.
[37:47.610 --> 37:49.570] [SPEAKER_01]: You just dial in, and you're in.
[37:49.730 --> 37:52.390] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, so you dial in, and then what does it prompt you for?
[37:53.350 --> 37:56.910] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, it prompts you for, um, uh, a destination.
[37:58.510 --> 37:58.910] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[37:59.550 --> 38:08.650] [SPEAKER_01]: So you give it, uh, the destination, uh, POP, which, uh, stands for, uh, Packet, uh, Samwar, uh, uh, network or something.
[38:09.130 --> 38:09.530] [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.
[38:09.830 --> 38:20.330] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, then you're on the Touch SurfNet, and you connect, uh, you can connect to, uh, all kinds of Dutch, uh, computers by just, uh, typing an address.
[38:20.650 --> 38:25.530] [SPEAKER_01]: And if you type connect help, you will get a complete guide of how to use the Dutch SurfNet.
[38:25.970 --> 38:26.470] [SPEAKER_01]: All right.
[38:26.490 --> 38:28.850] [SPEAKER_01]: And a complete guide of the Dutch SurfNet addresses.
[38:29.430 --> 38:35.370] [SPEAKER_04]: So you're able to connect, um, basically to computers all over the world through the SurfNet.
[38:35.710 --> 38:41.390] [SPEAKER_04]: And once you connect to one of those computers, you just simply, um, pound away at it until you get in?
[38:42.730 --> 38:43.610] [SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes, yeah.
[38:43.910 --> 38:44.150] [SPEAKER_04]: Uh-huh.
[38:45.730 --> 38:58.890] [SPEAKER_01]: A better way to do it is gain access to one computer first, a Dutch computer, for instance, then enter the Internet and use the Internet to get onto other computers.
[38:59.130 --> 39:02.890] [SPEAKER_04]: And the Internet opens the door to a vast array, I would imagine.
[39:04.310 --> 39:04.830] Pardon?
[39:05.090 --> 39:07.850] [SPEAKER_04]: The Internet opens the door to a lot more computers.
[39:08.150 --> 39:08.770] [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, it does.
[39:09.790 --> 39:12.330] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, one more question before we go to the phone calls here.
[39:13.070 --> 39:19.910] [SPEAKER_04]: What would you consider to be your biggest triumph as far as hacking into a system?
[39:19.950 --> 39:25.230] [SPEAKER_04]: Was there something that you were trying to do and it was thought to be impossible, but you did it anyway?
[39:26.250 --> 39:35.590] [SPEAKER_01]: I think the biggest triumph would be hacking myself into the computer, which I wasn't even an expert on.
[39:35.890 --> 39:38.190] [SPEAKER_01]: That was a fax of the local telecom.
[39:39.050 --> 39:39.630] [SPEAKER_04]: Uh-huh.
[39:40.230 --> 39:44.570] [SPEAKER_04]: And what would that enable you to do is logging into that particular system?
[39:45.090 --> 39:46.170] [SPEAKER_01]: Can you say that again, please?
[39:46.350 --> 39:50.150] [SPEAKER_04]: What would that enable you to do, being able to get into that system?
[39:51.210 --> 39:51.950] [SPEAKER_01]: Not very much.
[39:51.950 --> 39:55.630] [SPEAKER_01]: I could look at the data files of the Dutch telecom.
[39:55.770 --> 40:08.970] [SPEAKER_01]: There wasn't very much interesting stuff on it, but I was very happy to get in anyway, because telecom computers are generally better protected than the other computers.
[40:09.190 --> 40:11.410] [SPEAKER_04]: But not entirely protected.
[40:12.090 --> 40:12.410] Why?
[40:13.970 --> 40:16.030] [SPEAKER_04]: Let me ask one more question, then we'll go to the phones.
[40:16.770 --> 40:22.450] [SPEAKER_04]: Have you found any particular system or group of systems that you find to be well protected?
[40:24.050 --> 40:30.950] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, some of the military computers are relatively good protected.
[40:32.150 --> 40:46.550] [SPEAKER_01]: And some of the mostly computers that have been hacked a lot, most of them are better protected than the other system.
[40:47.310 --> 40:51.810] [SPEAKER_01]: But some of those systems will never learn, because they get hacked over and over again.
[40:52.530 --> 40:55.150] [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't know, they just keep themselves open.
[40:55.810 --> 40:59.710] [SPEAKER_04]: Let us know one of the ones that keeps getting hacked over and over again.
[40:59.790 --> 41:01.310] [SPEAKER_04]: Who are some of the people that never learn?
[41:04.430 --> 41:06.930] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, most of them are universities.
[41:09.010 --> 41:12.810] [SPEAKER_01]: And some of them are military.
[41:13.710 --> 41:18.550] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if they're streaking military, but they're the military type of computers.
[41:19.690 --> 41:20.290] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[41:20.590 --> 41:25.130] [SPEAKER_04]: We're speaking with Bart, who is a Dutch hacker over in Holland.
[41:25.450 --> 41:36.070] [SPEAKER_04]: And he's one of the folks behind the front page story in the New York Times on Sunday concerning Dutch hackers getting into American computer systems, both academic and military.
[41:36.410 --> 41:47.230] [SPEAKER_04]: And it's something that is likely to continue for quite some time and perhaps get even more widespread as computer holes are open to even water.
[41:47.670 --> 41:51.590] [SPEAKER_04]: We have phone lines open, 212-279-3400.
[41:51.590 --> 42:03.270] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm asking people who call in to please limit your discussion to particular questions that you would like to ask, Bart, and any other particular topics that you have on your mind we'll just get to on another program.
[42:03.530 --> 42:03.690] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay?
[42:04.470 --> 42:05.910] [SPEAKER_04]: 212-279-3400.
[42:06.090 --> 42:07.890] [SPEAKER_04]: And let's see if we can all hear each other.
[42:08.590 --> 42:09.170] [SPEAKER_04]: Go ahead.
[42:09.290 --> 42:09.690] [SPEAKER_04]: You're on the air.
[42:10.410 --> 42:11.870] [SPEAKER_09]: Warren, did you...
[42:11.870 --> 42:13.290] [SPEAKER_09]: Turn my radio down.
[42:14.650 --> 42:16.210] [SPEAKER_09]: Did you define root?
[42:16.870 --> 42:20.250] [SPEAKER_09]: You said that a lot of people would not know what it meant.
[42:20.250 --> 42:20.990] [SPEAKER_09]: And you were right.
[42:21.630 --> 42:25.090] [SPEAKER_09]: And the second thing is, where does the term hacker come from?
[42:25.450 --> 42:26.730] [SPEAKER_09]: What's the origin of it?
[42:26.870 --> 42:28.390] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, that's an interesting question.
[42:28.690 --> 42:33.710] [SPEAKER_04]: Because right now the term hacker is being debated left and right.
[42:33.850 --> 42:40.910] [SPEAKER_04]: There's a bunch of people in the computer industry that are trying to create a new word called cracker for the people that break into computer systems.
[42:41.450 --> 42:44.690] [SPEAKER_04]: And I don't really know anybody that calls themselves a cracker.
[42:44.850 --> 42:49.590] [SPEAKER_04]: Hacking is basically something where you keep trying to get into something.
[42:49.590 --> 42:51.370] [SPEAKER_04]: It doesn't even have to be a computer.
[42:51.570 --> 42:53.590] [SPEAKER_04]: It could be anything technological.
[42:54.430 --> 42:55.730] [SPEAKER_04]: It doesn't even have to be technological, though.
[42:55.810 --> 43:02.650] [SPEAKER_04]: It just has to indicate persistence on your part, refusal to take no for an answer, and willingness to learn.
[43:02.810 --> 43:04.430] [SPEAKER_04]: That's my definition of hacking.
[43:04.530 --> 43:06.070] [SPEAKER_04]: There's a lot of definitions floating around.
[43:06.970 --> 43:11.110] [SPEAKER_04]: With regard to your first question regarding root, I'd like to pass that on to Bart.
[43:11.350 --> 43:13.690] [SPEAKER_04]: And maybe you could explain it better than I could.
[43:14.750 --> 43:16.130] [SPEAKER_01]: You want to know what root is?
[43:16.330 --> 43:16.690] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[43:16.690 --> 43:18.050] [SPEAKER_04]: And we'll go on to the next call.
[43:18.790 --> 43:22.850] [SPEAKER_01]: Root is the highest level you can get on a computer system.
[43:23.690 --> 43:27.830] [SPEAKER_01]: Basically, it's got all the privileges you can get.
[43:28.430 --> 43:33.850] [SPEAKER_01]: And it even overrules some of the privileges people put on their files or whatever.
[43:34.110 --> 43:38.230] [SPEAKER_01]: If they don't allow anybody to see it, then still root can see everything.
[43:39.210 --> 43:41.970] [SPEAKER_04]: Now, root is particularly on...
[43:41.970 --> 43:46.830] [SPEAKER_04]: It's a term for Unix systems, but every computer system has the equivalent of root?
[43:47.130 --> 43:47.450] Yeah.
[43:48.530 --> 43:49.110] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[43:49.630 --> 43:55.830] [SPEAKER_04]: Now, it's supposed to be the most secure of all the accounts there.
[43:56.250 --> 43:56.730] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[43:56.930 --> 43:58.330] [SPEAKER_04]: Have you found that to be so?
[44:00.150 --> 44:04.770] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, mostly, it's a lot more secure than the other accounts.
[44:05.850 --> 44:07.930] [SPEAKER_01]: But it can still be hacked.
[44:08.430 --> 44:08.670] [SPEAKER_04]: Uh-huh.
[44:08.750 --> 44:09.950] [SPEAKER_04]: How is it more secure?
[44:10.190 --> 44:11.070] [SPEAKER_04]: Longer passwords?
[44:11.390 --> 44:11.570] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[44:11.750 --> 44:11.870] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[44:12.570 --> 44:15.330] [SPEAKER_01]: Mostly, root has got a better password.
[44:15.910 --> 44:19.050] [SPEAKER_01]: And his file protections are better.
[44:19.490 --> 44:24.330] [SPEAKER_01]: Normal people don't really have very good file protections.
[44:24.330 --> 44:28.510] [SPEAKER_04]: But once you gain access to root, that's, uh, you're at the top of the mountain, right?
[44:28.830 --> 44:29.290] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, right.
[44:29.590 --> 44:29.850] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[44:29.990 --> 44:30.690] [SPEAKER_04]: Let's go to another call.
[44:30.970 --> 44:31.570] [SPEAKER_04]: Good evening.
[44:34.440 --> 44:35.100] [SPEAKER_04]: Good evening.
[44:36.400 --> 44:36.840] [SPEAKER_04]: Hmm.
[44:36.940 --> 44:38.900] [SPEAKER_04]: There seems to be something wrong with this phone line over here.
[44:40.100 --> 44:43.980] [SPEAKER_04]: It's making all kinds of weird flashing sounds, but I'll go to another call.
[44:44.180 --> 44:44.560] [SPEAKER_04]: Good evening.
[44:45.220 --> 44:45.520] Oh.
[44:45.800 --> 44:46.080] [SPEAKER_06]: Hello.
[44:46.680 --> 45:06.520] [SPEAKER_06]: Um, were you able to, uh, uncover any information, uh, that, uh, of, uh, political, or, you know, great political, or social, or international significance, uh, or, you know, is it just a lot of, uh, details about this little project here, you know, that little thing there?
[45:06.520 --> 45:13.880] [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, exactly, exactly how, is it really worthwhile to go digging into those, uh, systems of the government and military?
[45:14.320 --> 45:19.240] [SPEAKER_01]: Most of the times when I get into a system, I'm not very interested on, uh, the stuff they store on there.
[45:19.240 --> 45:20.200] [SPEAKER_01]: I just like the system.
[45:20.980 --> 45:35.020] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, uh, I don't think that, uh, even if there were, uh, files, uh, with, uh, very interesting political, uh, uh, weapons data or whatever, I don't think I would be able to, uh, spot them.
[45:35.080 --> 45:45.000] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I'm not going, uh, on a system just to, to spend, uh, 12 or 15 hours to browse through all the files and look if there's interesting information in it.
[45:45.340 --> 45:52.260] [SPEAKER_01]: I just go on to look at a system, uh, see if, if it has, uh, connections to other systems, and then I'll move on.
[45:59.590 --> 46:04.430] [SPEAKER_04]: That's something that a lot of, uh, a lot of hackers try to, uh, to get people to understand.
[46:04.430 --> 46:06.790] [SPEAKER_04]: They're not in it for a particular cause.
[46:06.930 --> 46:10.570] [SPEAKER_04]: They're not in it either to, uh, uh, to destroy the world or to save the world.
[46:10.710 --> 46:12.210] [SPEAKER_04]: They're in it out of curiosity, period.
[46:12.930 --> 46:21.690] [SPEAKER_04]: And, um, I know the feeling, you know, when you're, when you're after something and you think it, you're, uh, you're only one step away and you just keep at it all night long until you figure it all out.
[46:22.070 --> 46:23.790] [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, it's, uh, it's a tremendous feeling.
[46:24.350 --> 46:30.710] [SPEAKER_04]: And, uh, I think if, uh, if hackers as a rule were evil people, we would certainly see some horrible things happening by now.
[46:31.030 --> 46:36.150] [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, I would, I would say, let's take what the people here are saying as a warning.
[46:36.430 --> 46:41.170] [SPEAKER_04]: You know, a warning that, uh, uh, these systems are incredibly easy to get into.
[46:41.550 --> 46:46.110] [SPEAKER_04]: And, um, if somebody evil does get into them, we could all be in a lot of trouble.
[46:46.110 --> 46:47.430] [SPEAKER_04]: Does, does that make sense to you?
[46:48.830 --> 46:49.910] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, to me?
[46:50.350 --> 46:50.610] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[46:51.070 --> 46:52.330] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, certainly.
[46:52.930 --> 46:58.030] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, I mean, you can make a Unix system as secure as, as you want it yourself.
[46:58.390 --> 47:00.590] [SPEAKER_01]: But most people don't really care about that, it seems.
[47:02.150 --> 47:03.910] [SPEAKER_04]: That's, uh, that's a sad fact.
[47:04.430 --> 47:07.830] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, we are having some technical difficulties with the telephone here.
[47:07.930 --> 47:09.290] [SPEAKER_04]: So, this is how we're going to fix it, folks.
[47:09.470 --> 47:11.430] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm going to pick up a call here, all right?
[47:11.530 --> 47:15.670] [SPEAKER_04]: And if you are not the person that I pick up the call for, I want everybody to hang up.
[47:15.670 --> 47:19.430] [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, and dial a different number, because we seem to be having trouble with the first line.
[47:19.850 --> 47:25.070] [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, so, instead of dialing 279-3400, hang up and dial 279-3401.
[47:25.230 --> 47:28.050] [SPEAKER_04]: And that way you'll skip over that bad line, which apparently we're having trouble with.
[47:28.090 --> 47:30.670] [SPEAKER_04]: That's only if you're not the person that, uh, we pick up on next.
[47:31.310 --> 47:35.190] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, so, uh, give us a call, 279-3401.
[47:35.470 --> 47:40.730] [SPEAKER_04]: Speak to the Dutch hackers, who, uh, are causing quite a bit of consternation all over the place, I'm sure.
[47:41.210 --> 47:41.790] [SPEAKER_04]: Good evening.
[47:42.410 --> 47:42.770] [SPEAKER_08]: Hello?
[47:43.090 --> 47:43.670] [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, go ahead.
[47:43.950 --> 47:44.250] [SPEAKER_08]: Hi.
[47:44.770 --> 48:08.310] [SPEAKER_08]: Um, I wanted to ask your guest, um, what's the difference between what he does, which I understand he does in goodwill, and to satisfy intellectual curiosity, and, for example, someone who, out of just curiosity, wanted to see if they could, um, get by the security system of a bank,
[48:08.490 --> 48:10.230] [SPEAKER_08]: you know, of, of a physical building.
[48:10.450 --> 48:15.990] [SPEAKER_08]: You know, just wanted to see if they could break in, and then broke in, but didn't take anything, and then just left.
[48:16.450 --> 48:18.310] [SPEAKER_08]: I mean, I don't understand what the difference is.
[48:18.410 --> 48:24.170] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, we're going to get into analogies, so let's, uh, let's ask our, uh, Dutch friend what, uh, what analogies he goes by.
[48:24.350 --> 48:25.010] [SPEAKER_04]: Thanks for calling.
[48:25.010 --> 48:32.150] [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's a bit, uh, pretty stupid to compare, uh, breaking into a bank with breaking into a computer system.
[48:32.330 --> 48:40.570] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you're talking about breaking into a computer system, but it's, uh, very, uh, different than breaking into a bank.
[48:40.570 --> 48:47.490] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, in, in Holland, breaking into a bank is a crime, and breaking into a computer system is not.
[48:48.370 --> 48:58.610] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, furthermore, uh, I think, uh, you know, I think it's, uh, relatively, uh, it's not good to compare, uh, a computer with a bank.
[48:58.830 --> 49:10.010] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, a computer can be used by anybody, and, uh, I think, uh, a bank, I don't think you can compare that to a computer system.
[49:10.590 --> 49:17.150] [SPEAKER_04]: And computers have all kinds of, uh, information that people really don't know, that they have no idea what that information is.
[49:17.650 --> 49:25.570] [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, have you found things about, uh, about personal, uh, files, that kind of thing, when, when you were wandering around our computer systems?
[49:26.570 --> 49:31.250] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I sometimes, uh, find, uh, personal files or memos or whatever.
[49:31.250 --> 49:34.670] [SPEAKER_01]: But, you see, the fact is that I'm just not interested in it.
[49:34.890 --> 49:35.970] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm interested in the system.
[49:36.330 --> 49:44.330] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm not going all the, or looking all over the system for files, uh, where somebody's writing love letters to, uh, somebody else or something.
[49:44.470 --> 49:45.330] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not interested in that.
[49:45.470 --> 49:45.670] [SPEAKER_04]: Uh-huh.
[49:45.730 --> 49:48.390] [SPEAKER_04]: It's interesting, though, because that's always the analogy that's brought up.
[49:48.470 --> 49:51.130] [SPEAKER_04]: It's always, well, if somebody broke into your house, you'd feel violated.
[49:51.670 --> 49:54.310] [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, but, uh, that's what you're not interested in.
[49:54.310 --> 50:00.950] [SPEAKER_04]: You're not interested in people's personal lives, but what you're finding are, are personal items about people in these huge mainframe computers.
[50:01.130 --> 50:01.570] [SPEAKER_04]: Is that correct?
[50:01.870 --> 50:02.370] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's right.
[50:02.490 --> 50:09.170] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think, uh, furthermore, it's very dangerous to compare, uh, breaking into a computer with breaking into a house or breaking into a bank.
[50:09.490 --> 50:16.130] [SPEAKER_01]: Because that's the same thing as, uh, uh, when you're saying, uh, you're looking at somebody else's files.
[50:16.510 --> 50:22.170] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, that's, uh, to compare it with, uh, peeking through somebody's window when he's taking a shower or something.
[50:22.930 --> 50:24.150] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think it's pretty stupid.
[50:24.310 --> 50:24.910] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, sorry.
[50:25.350 --> 50:27.270] [SPEAKER_04]: Let me ask you one question, then we'll go on to another call.
[50:27.690 --> 50:29.610] [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, why did you go to the press?
[50:29.710 --> 50:30.450] [SPEAKER_04]: Why did you go to the media?
[50:31.310 --> 50:32.610] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, I didn't go to the press.
[50:32.710 --> 50:34.010] [SPEAKER_01]: The press, uh, came to me.
[50:34.290 --> 50:34.890] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, why is that?
[50:34.950 --> 50:35.530] [SPEAKER_04]: How did they know?
[50:36.070 --> 50:40.670] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, they found out, uh, via a friend, uh, of a friend, of a friend, of a friend.
[50:41.010 --> 50:42.810] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, are you happy with the fact that they found out?
[50:44.110 --> 50:47.370] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, well, not happy, but also not sad.
[50:47.530 --> 50:51.510] [SPEAKER_01]: They asked me, uh, if they could, uh, film, uh, something.
[50:52.190 --> 50:52.910] [SPEAKER_01]: And I agreed.
[50:53.770 --> 50:54.170] [SPEAKER_04]: Uh-huh.
[50:54.310 --> 50:58.550] [SPEAKER_04]: And what kind of response do you get from non-hackers who know what you're up to?
[50:59.410 --> 51:07.330] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, generally, uh, uh, yeah, most of them don't quite understand what I did, but, uh, they do seem to like it.
[51:07.770 --> 51:15.390] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, I think that, uh, the Dutch people in general are, uh, different, uh, uh, than, uh, the Americans.
[51:15.790 --> 51:18.110] [SPEAKER_01]: The Dutch, uh, are, are interested.
[51:18.290 --> 51:24.010] [SPEAKER_01]: They want to know how I did it, and if it's difficult, and what kind of uses you got for it.
[51:24.430 --> 51:32.990] [SPEAKER_01]: And, uh, uh, I think that, uh, as far as I've heard from the Americans, they're more interested in, uh, uh, uh, how, uh, how, uh, how much of a crime it is or something.
[51:33.550 --> 51:44.130] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, Dutch culture, correct me if I'm wrong here, but, uh, Dutch culture is, uh, pretty much geared for individuals, their anti, uh, authority kind of, uh, uh, uh, value system.
[51:44.130 --> 51:44.830] [SPEAKER_04]: Is that correct?
[51:46.030 --> 51:47.110] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you can say that.
[51:47.310 --> 51:50.190] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not saying that every Dutchman is like that.
[51:50.370 --> 51:52.250] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, certainly a lot more than here in this country.
[51:52.470 --> 51:53.130] [SPEAKER_01]: I think so, yeah.
[51:53.190 --> 51:53.350] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[51:53.710 --> 51:54.610] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, let's go to another call.
[51:55.010 --> 51:55.630] [SPEAKER_04]: Good evening.
[51:55.910 --> 51:56.290] [SPEAKER_07]: Good evening.
[51:56.390 --> 51:58.850] [SPEAKER_07]: I've been a programmer analyst for about eight years.
[51:59.170 --> 52:01.890] [SPEAKER_07]: I've got to disagree with this man completely.
[52:03.770 --> 52:05.350] [SPEAKER_07]: It is the same thing.
[52:05.510 --> 52:08.270] [SPEAKER_07]: It is like breaking into somebody's house.
[52:09.870 --> 52:15.030] [SPEAKER_07]: You can't... if you don't have permission to go there, you can't go there.
[52:15.170 --> 52:28.990] [SPEAKER_07]: If you come into my house just to see if you can figure out a way to get through the locks, and you're not interested in my stuff, but you find out where my diary is, and you don't look at it, you're still... I don't feel good.
[52:29.390 --> 52:30.690] [SPEAKER_07]: You can't do that.
[52:30.810 --> 52:32.990] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think the comparison is for real.
[52:33.170 --> 52:34.410] [SPEAKER_07]: I think it is for real.
[52:34.710 --> 52:36.110] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, let's hear what he has to say.
[52:37.410 --> 52:42.450] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I mean, if somebody's going into my house, I would be very scared, too.
[52:42.790 --> 52:53.490] [SPEAKER_01]: But if I had a computer and somebody else was wandering around in that, I wouldn't really mind at all, except when he starts to go deleting files and stuff.
[52:53.650 --> 52:59.210] [SPEAKER_01]: And furthermore, I mean, just like I just said, you can't compare a computer to a house.
[52:59.330 --> 53:00.090] [SPEAKER_07]: I agree with you.
[53:00.230 --> 53:01.630] [SPEAKER_07]: No, I think you can.
[53:01.630 --> 53:09.710] [SPEAKER_07]: Again, and if... Well, what if I go into your house, I break into your house, and I don't delete your diary?
[53:10.070 --> 53:11.550] [SPEAKER_07]: In other words, I don't burn it.
[53:11.970 --> 53:12.790] [SPEAKER_07]: Is that okay?
[53:13.370 --> 53:14.270] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, there you go again.
[53:14.270 --> 53:17.050] [SPEAKER_01]: You compare a computer to a house, and I think that's a bad comparison.
[53:17.450 --> 53:20.590] [SPEAKER_07]: The reason my house is important is because it's mine.
[53:20.830 --> 53:21.990] [SPEAKER_07]: I value it.
[53:22.150 --> 53:22.810] [SPEAKER_01]: The computer yours?
[53:23.690 --> 53:25.190] [SPEAKER_07]: Is the computer mine?
[53:25.470 --> 53:25.690] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[53:25.930 --> 53:27.270] [SPEAKER_07]: The house I live in isn't mine.
[53:27.270 --> 53:27.810] [SPEAKER_07]: I rent.
[53:28.130 --> 53:30.690] [SPEAKER_07]: But you're still not allowed to break into it.
[53:31.170 --> 53:32.410] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so...
[53:32.410 --> 53:39.750] [SPEAKER_04]: Maybe we should move this analogy to office analogy, since we're dealing with mostly businesses and corporations and things like that.
[53:40.490 --> 53:47.610] [SPEAKER_04]: Would you feel as violated if somebody broke into a particular part of your office building that wasn't necessarily yours?
[53:48.470 --> 53:50.210] [SPEAKER_07]: Would I feel as violated?
[53:50.390 --> 53:50.590] [SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
[53:50.590 --> 53:52.790] [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, no.
[53:53.270 --> 54:04.090] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, now I think that might be a closer analogy, because what we're talking about are these huge computer systems where there are hundreds of users, and not a personal computer in your house somewhere.
[54:04.350 --> 54:08.810] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, if somebody calls up your personal computer and breaks into that, that's closer to that analogy, I think.
[54:08.910 --> 54:13.310] [SPEAKER_07]: That would not make it any less wrong, just because I didn't feel as abused or violated.
[54:13.470 --> 54:15.890] [SPEAKER_07]: It would still be unethical and immoral.
[54:15.990 --> 54:17.090] [SPEAKER_07]: Well, now, what do you say...
[54:17.090 --> 54:32.250] [SPEAKER_07]: Because if someone breaks into another apartment, in my complex, I might not feel as violated if he went into my complex, but that person still feels violated, or I would imagine would, and it would still be unethical and immoral.
[54:32.450 --> 54:37.070] [SPEAKER_04]: Now, what do you say our Dutch friend here says that he was able to get in using guest accounts?
[54:38.510 --> 54:41.670] [SPEAKER_07]: I'm unfamiliar with the meaningfulness of that.
[54:42.170 --> 54:42.670] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[54:42.670 --> 54:43.410] [SPEAKER_04]: Thanks for calling.
[54:43.610 --> 54:44.150] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, thanks.
[54:44.670 --> 54:45.710] [SPEAKER_04]: Let's go to another call.
[54:46.110 --> 54:46.550] [SPEAKER_04]: Good evening.
[54:47.110 --> 54:48.950] [SPEAKER_10]: Yes, this is John from Woodside.
[54:49.790 --> 55:11.930] [SPEAKER_10]: I'd like to know, with Bart, I access various international conference boards of Fidonet and RelayNet, and I would like to know, Bart, which ones you get on, and what name do you use, so I could leave messages to you from here?
[55:14.370 --> 55:16.710] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, you don't have to give out that info if you don't want it, Bart.
[55:16.710 --> 55:19.730] [SPEAKER_03]: But I don't know what you're comfortable with.
[55:19.750 --> 55:22.690] [SPEAKER_10]: Do you use a fake name or something that on...
[55:22.690 --> 55:32.210] [SPEAKER_01]: If you want to leave messages or something, you can always leave messages to Eric, and I will contact him sooner or later so we can forward them.
[55:32.330 --> 55:38.750] [SPEAKER_10]: Is there any particular Relay or Fidonet that you get on?
[55:38.830 --> 55:46.750] [SPEAKER_10]: I know there's one that I've been getting on locally for shortwave listeners, and it's echoed all across the globe.
[55:46.970 --> 55:59.590] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, you know, I believe if you just wander around enough and speak about hacking, I think you'll run into somebody from Holland, possibly this very caller here, without much of a problem.
[55:59.750 --> 56:00.390] [SPEAKER_04]: Thanks for calling.
[56:00.470 --> 56:01.970] [SPEAKER_04]: We have time for one more phone call.
[56:02.370 --> 56:03.170] [SPEAKER_04]: Good evening.
[56:03.770 --> 56:09.210] [SPEAKER_05]: Yes, I'd like to ask Bart how old he is and what the average age of those hackers are.
[56:09.570 --> 56:10.510] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, good question.
[56:10.710 --> 56:11.110] [SPEAKER_04]: Bart?
[56:11.550 --> 56:15.190] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I'm 24, and I think that...
[56:15.750 --> 56:16.930] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not sure...
[56:16.930 --> 56:27.990] [SPEAKER_01]: I haven't met very much hackers person to person, but what I've heard about the average hacker age in Holland is about 21, 22.
[56:29.950 --> 56:39.090] [SPEAKER_04]: We find here in the United States, at the 2600 meetings, for instance, we get people from all different ages, people up into their 60s and 70s even, and people below 10.
[56:39.390 --> 56:46.530] [SPEAKER_04]: So the interest, and I'm sure if you go through our listening audience right now, you'd find all kinds of deviations from that.
[56:47.350 --> 56:54.810] [SPEAKER_04]: There's a lot of interest in this, and it's something that is not as hard to get into as people seem to think it is.
[56:54.950 --> 56:55.630] [SPEAKER_04]: It's not...
[56:55.630 --> 57:05.770] [SPEAKER_04]: And that's why it's such a shock, really, because it's so frightfully easy to get into these computer systems and to find out all these bits of information that really should be kept secret.
[57:05.770 --> 57:09.930] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, do you believe that the information that you see really shouldn't be as open as it is?
[57:11.230 --> 57:12.350] [SPEAKER_01]: Can you say that again?
[57:12.490 --> 57:12.990] [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't quite get it.
[57:13.030 --> 57:18.290] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, the information that you were able to see, do you believe that it should be as wide open as it is, or do you believe it should be...
[57:18.290 --> 57:19.850] [SPEAKER_04]: people should be trying to protect it?
[57:20.330 --> 57:28.330] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well, I think that if something is really not for the public to see, then they should at first protect it better.
[57:28.330 --> 57:32.910] [SPEAKER_04]: And on the other hand, there's a lot of information that should be made public that is being kept secret.
[57:33.090 --> 57:36.670] [SPEAKER_04]: And that's a whole other thing about what's being stored inside computers.
[57:37.050 --> 57:38.110] [SPEAKER_04]: We are out of time.
[57:38.210 --> 57:39.870] [SPEAKER_04]: The personal computer show is on next.
[57:40.090 --> 57:44.510] [SPEAKER_04]: I want to thank Bart from Holland for getting in touch with us.
[57:44.710 --> 57:50.930] [SPEAKER_04]: And hopefully you'll stay safe over there and won't cause World War III or anything like that.
[57:52.310 --> 57:56.230] [SPEAKER_04]: Again, are there any... well, you have a magazine over there called Hacktick.
[57:56.290 --> 57:57.390] [SPEAKER_04]: Do you want to give the address for that?
[57:58.370 --> 57:59.770] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, the address for Hacktick?
[57:59.950 --> 58:00.190] [SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
[58:00.410 --> 58:01.650] [SPEAKER_04]: People are interested in that.
[58:02.170 --> 58:02.750] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, yeah.
[58:02.910 --> 58:03.130] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[58:03.750 --> 58:04.670] [SPEAKER_01]: Just hold on one second.
[58:04.770 --> 58:05.030] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[58:05.410 --> 58:10.830] [SPEAKER_04]: And while you're getting that, I can remind the folks that we'll be having another 2600 meeting, uh, 5 p.m.
[58:10.850 --> 58:14.250] [SPEAKER_04]: a week from this Friday at the CityCore Center in the lobby area.
[58:14.250 --> 58:16.450] [SPEAKER_04]: That's for American hackers only, please.
[58:16.650 --> 58:19.190] [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, and there'll be... oh, who knows what we'll be doing.
[58:19.230 --> 58:22.070] [SPEAKER_04]: We'll be passing out information, giving codes, whatever.
[58:22.270 --> 58:25.010] [SPEAKER_04]: Whatever you desire us to do, we'll probably do somehow.
[58:26.230 --> 58:27.150] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, you got the address?
[58:27.390 --> 58:27.610] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[58:27.610 --> 58:28.290] [SPEAKER_04]: Go ahead.
[58:28.590 --> 58:32.350] [SPEAKER_01]: The address is, uh, PO 22953.
[58:33.370 --> 58:35.410] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, zip, or the zip code?
[58:36.970 --> 58:37.370] [SPEAKER_04]: 22953.
[58:37.730 --> 58:38.630] [SPEAKER_04]: And that's in Amsterdam?
[58:39.210 --> 58:40.390] [SPEAKER_04]: And the zip code is what?
[58:40.770 --> 58:44.090] [SPEAKER_01]: The zip code is 1100DL.
[58:45.990 --> 58:46.390] [SPEAKER_04]: 1100DL.
[58:46.490 --> 58:47.430] [SPEAKER_04]: It's David Lawrence.
[58:48.950 --> 58:49.350] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[58:49.350 --> 58:52.930] [SPEAKER_04]: Thanks very much, Bart, for, uh, being a guest here on Off the Hook.
[58:53.630 --> 58:55.370] [SPEAKER_04]: We're not going to be here in two weeks.
[58:55.410 --> 58:56.590] [SPEAKER_04]: We're not going to be here in four weeks.
[58:56.590 --> 58:58.590] [SPEAKER_04]: We will be here in six weeks.
[58:59.170 --> 59:00.010] [SPEAKER_04]: Don't ask me why.
[59:00.090 --> 59:01.050] [SPEAKER_04]: That's just the way things work here.
[59:01.570 --> 59:03.890] [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, and there will also be a six-hour special.
[59:03.890 --> 59:05.850] [SPEAKER_04]: We're not quite sure what the subject is going to be.
[59:05.850 --> 59:11.130] [SPEAKER_04]: That's on, uh, May 22nd from 12 midnight to 6 a.m.
[59:11.710 --> 59:13.190] [SPEAKER_04]: Emanuel Goldstein for Off the Hook.
[59:13.450 --> 59:14.030] [SPEAKER_04]: Good night.
[59:15.030 --> 59:17.550] [SPEAKER_02]: I hope the thunder's good, but make me go!
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