Off The Hook - 1991-05-23

[00:01.070 --> 00:04.350]  [SPEAKER_30]: Oh yeah, yeah.
[00:04.990 --> 00:07.770]  [SPEAKER_30]: No place to hide.
[00:09.670 --> 00:13.450]  [SPEAKER_30]: They're trying to find me.
[00:17.340 --> 00:25.680]  [SPEAKER_30]: Now I've got to judge two guns to protect myself from men.
[00:26.640 --> 00:34.140]  [SPEAKER_30]: Cause I've never done nothing wrong and I hate myself.
[00:45.970 --> 00:48.730]  [SPEAKER_02]: Some music from Peter Tosh here on Off The Hook.
[00:49.370 --> 00:51.670]  [SPEAKER_02]: And we need to see those phone lines light up.
[00:51.770 --> 00:58.850]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's 1248 and we need to raise another $50 before the hour.
[00:59.490 --> 01:01.470]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's right, 279-3400.
[01:01.910 --> 01:10.790]  [SPEAKER_02]: There aren't many places where you can hear people like Bill Squire speak his mind and tell you just exactly what it was he was up to with the BART scandal.
[01:10.790 --> 01:12.430]  [SPEAKER_02]: We've got a lot more coming your way.
[01:12.570 --> 01:16.390]  [SPEAKER_02]: We've got a consumer expose on the phone companies.
[01:16.730 --> 01:18.450]  [SPEAKER_02]: That'll be coming up in just a couple of minutes.
[01:18.650 --> 01:24.990]  [SPEAKER_02]: We've got Steve Jackson of Steve Jackson Games who has been kind enough to talk to us about his exploits.
[01:25.110 --> 01:29.230]  [SPEAKER_02]: He's suing the Secret Service for the raids of 1990.
[01:30.210 --> 01:33.210]  [SPEAKER_02]: And we have a whole lot of other educational bits.
[01:33.330 --> 01:40.650]  [SPEAKER_02]: But we do need to see those phones ring because that's the only thing that can ensure our survival in the future is to hear from our listeners.
[01:41.830 --> 01:43.590]  [SPEAKER_02]: 212-279-3400.
[01:43.750 --> 01:44.610]  [SPEAKER_02]: Give us a call.
[01:44.730 --> 01:45.350]  [SPEAKER_02]: Make a pledge.
[01:45.530 --> 01:53.050]  [SPEAKER_02]: Everybody that calls and pledges will receive a free copy of 2600 Magazine as a personal way of saying thank you.
[01:53.050 --> 02:03.190]  [SPEAKER_02]: We want to thank Ted Gandolfo, JFK researcher, who is going to donate 77-inch reels of tape.
[02:03.450 --> 02:04.670]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's right, 70 of them.
[02:05.110 --> 02:10.770]  [SPEAKER_02]: And he's already given us $200 matching funds and we'll give another one next week.
[02:11.510 --> 02:12.970]  [SPEAKER_02]: So that's great.
[02:12.970 --> 02:14.930]  [SPEAKER_02]: We need more people like that to help us out.
[02:15.310 --> 02:16.390]  [SPEAKER_02]: Every little bit counts.
[02:16.530 --> 02:18.230]  [SPEAKER_02]: We've got no phone lines lit.
[02:18.390 --> 02:19.290]  [SPEAKER_02]: No phone lines lit.
[02:19.290 --> 02:21.370]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I know if we were asking for phone calls, they'd all be lit.
[02:21.910 --> 02:25.130]  [SPEAKER_02]: Think of the number of times that we have had listener feedback.
[02:25.130 --> 02:26.930]  [SPEAKER_02]: We're going to have lots of that later on tonight.
[02:27.150 --> 02:29.310]  [SPEAKER_02]: We're on for six hours until six in the morning.
[02:29.450 --> 02:32.170]  [SPEAKER_02]: But we need to have those lines.
[02:32.290 --> 02:34.190]  [SPEAKER_02]: At least two calls come in in the next couple of minutes.
[02:34.350 --> 02:36.390]  [SPEAKER_02]: 212-279-3400.
[02:36.770 --> 02:39.610]  [SPEAKER_02]: We have volunteers standing by in the tally room.
[02:39.910 --> 02:44.390]  [SPEAKER_02]: We've got, for a pledge of $65, your choice of one of the following.
[02:44.390 --> 02:48.330]  [SPEAKER_02]: A WBAI t-shirt, a WBAI tote bag.
[02:48.610 --> 02:53.970]  [SPEAKER_02]: Just imagine the, you know, the conversations you can start up at the supermarket checkout line with one of those.
[02:54.370 --> 02:57.630]  [SPEAKER_02]: The WBAI baseball cap.
[02:59.010 --> 03:00.950]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's right, a WBAI baseball cap.
[03:01.010 --> 03:02.890]  [SPEAKER_02]: I never thought I'd see the day when we'd have one of these.
[03:03.710 --> 03:07.570]  [SPEAKER_02]: We've got cassettes for a $75 pledge.
[03:08.110 --> 03:10.390]  [SPEAKER_02]: A three-cassette package.
[03:10.930 --> 03:13.030]  [SPEAKER_02]: Media, censorship, and the First Amendment.
[03:13.370 --> 03:16.710]  [SPEAKER_02]: Things that certainly apply to all of us.
[03:17.750 --> 03:23.990]  [SPEAKER_02]: But we've got to hear from the people out there to let us know that this kind of programming is valued.
[03:24.210 --> 03:30.810]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, what you are going to hear in the next few minutes is something that I guarantee you have not heard anywhere else before.
[03:30.810 --> 03:37.370]  [SPEAKER_02]: But it's something that will shatter, shatter your faith in the long-distance phone company system.
[03:37.770 --> 03:39.970]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, we've talked about divestiture.
[03:40.110 --> 03:42.590]  [SPEAKER_02]: We've talked about the breakup of the bell system.
[03:43.090 --> 03:46.690]  [SPEAKER_02]: We've talked about the effects of that on the individual consumers.
[03:50.010 --> 03:54.230]  [SPEAKER_02]: But, you know, we've explored this so many times.
[03:54.230 --> 03:59.150]  [SPEAKER_02]: And we've had hands-on experience.
[03:59.770 --> 04:01.990]  [SPEAKER_02]: And there are no other places that do that.
[04:02.550 --> 04:05.570]  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, we all watch TV occasionally.
[04:05.570 --> 04:10.550]  [SPEAKER_02]: We see the roving reporters who pretend to be on the side of the consumers.
[04:10.550 --> 04:12.690]  [SPEAKER_02]: But they really don't know what it is they're talking about.
[04:12.990 --> 04:15.250]  [SPEAKER_02]: And this comes from first-hand knowledge.
[04:15.250 --> 04:16.850]  [SPEAKER_02]: They don't know what's going on.
[04:17.790 --> 04:21.690]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, we know what's going on because we play with things live on the air.
[04:21.830 --> 04:22.930]  [SPEAKER_02]: We show you what's happening.
[04:23.070 --> 04:24.570]  [SPEAKER_02]: We explain what it all means.
[04:26.050 --> 04:27.890]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, that kind of thing does not come cheap.
[04:27.890 --> 04:30.750]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, we have to pay the bills here.
[04:30.770 --> 04:33.210]  [SPEAKER_02]: We've got to keep our transmitter going.
[04:35.030 --> 04:42.850]  [SPEAKER_02]: And all the other myriad things that come up in the day-to-day operations of a 50,000-watt radio station in the middle of New York City.
[04:45.710 --> 04:47.350]  [SPEAKER_02]: WBAI is supported by its listeners.
[04:47.910 --> 04:50.630]  [SPEAKER_02]: And right now, that means you.
[04:51.110 --> 04:51.510]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay?
[04:51.730 --> 04:53.130]  [SPEAKER_02]: Our goal is $300,000.
[04:53.790 --> 04:55.370]  [SPEAKER_02]: We're pretty far away from that.
[04:55.450 --> 04:58.010]  [SPEAKER_02]: And we're also pretty far away from our goals for this show.
[04:58.690 --> 05:01.130]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I must say, that's kind of disturbing.
[05:02.110 --> 05:03.950]  [SPEAKER_02]: Let's see two calls come in.
[05:04.250 --> 05:07.310]  [SPEAKER_02]: Two calls come in, and that'll make me happy for at least the next hour.
[05:07.730 --> 05:10.450]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, so if you're sitting around, make that call now.
[05:10.450 --> 05:11.130]  [SPEAKER_02]: We take Visa.
[05:11.290 --> 05:12.290]  [SPEAKER_02]: We take MasterCard.
[05:14.270 --> 05:18.070]  [SPEAKER_02]: And the important thing is not so much what we take, it's what we give.
[05:18.330 --> 05:20.950]  [SPEAKER_02]: And we give you the opportunity to be heard.
[05:20.970 --> 05:22.730]  [SPEAKER_02]: We give you the opportunity to learn.
[05:23.270 --> 05:27.530]  [SPEAKER_02]: And we give the whole tri-state area a voice.
[05:28.470 --> 05:32.490]  [SPEAKER_02]: A voice that would not be there, or not for this radio station.
[05:33.270 --> 05:35.230]  [SPEAKER_02]: 212-279-3400.
[05:35.710 --> 05:36.950]  [SPEAKER_02]: Please make that call.
[05:37.350 --> 05:38.550]  [SPEAKER_02]: Are we on the air?
[05:38.730 --> 05:40.010]  [SPEAKER_02]: Is the station off the air?
[05:40.090 --> 05:41.830]  [SPEAKER_02]: I don't see any response.
[05:41.830 --> 05:45.870]  [SPEAKER_02]: And there's got to be something wrong with the mechanism here.
[05:46.530 --> 05:48.110]  [SPEAKER_02]: 212-279-3400.
[05:48.230 --> 05:48.890]  [SPEAKER_02]: Be that caller.
[05:49.190 --> 05:50.470]  [SPEAKER_02]: Pledge what you can afford.
[05:50.650 --> 05:54.890]  [SPEAKER_02]: But everybody that pledges something will receive a free copy of the Hacker Quarterly.
[05:55.370 --> 06:00.350]  [SPEAKER_02]: And possibly one of the many other things that we're offering for various pledge amounts.
[06:00.350 --> 06:03.250]  [SPEAKER_02]: The Tally Room people will be more than happy to help you out there.
[06:03.710 --> 06:07.570]  [SPEAKER_02]: There are WBAI listeners that have come in, volunteered their time.
[06:07.690 --> 06:09.150]  [SPEAKER_02]: We also need people to volunteer a ton.
[06:09.390 --> 06:10.890]  [SPEAKER_02]: So, do that.
[06:11.050 --> 06:14.590]  [SPEAKER_02]: Please come in and do whatever you can.
[06:15.590 --> 06:17.150]  [SPEAKER_02]: Make a donation of whatever you can.
[06:17.150 --> 06:19.910]  [SPEAKER_02]: 212-279-3400.
[06:19.950 --> 06:24.510]  [SPEAKER_02]: We need two more calls in the next seven minutes.
[06:25.650 --> 06:26.090]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[06:26.350 --> 06:28.250]  [SPEAKER_02]: 212-279-3400.
[06:28.430 --> 06:39.170]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, what we're going to hear after the next musical bit is a piece where the phone companies are revealed for what they really are.
[06:41.330 --> 06:41.970]  [SPEAKER_02]: 212-279-3400.
[06:41.970 --> 06:42.270]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's right.
[06:42.670 --> 06:45.170]  [SPEAKER_02]: A lot of people would not want you to hear this.
[06:45.410 --> 06:55.470]  [SPEAKER_02]: I am sure a lot of people in various big industry buildings right now are getting rather nervous because we don't know.
[06:55.590 --> 07:02.870]  [SPEAKER_02]: They don't know if we're going to squash them over the airwaves by revealing their practices.
[07:05.430 --> 07:06.070]  [SPEAKER_52]: Yeah.
[07:06.950 --> 07:08.290]  [SPEAKER_02]: We're going to do something.
[07:08.290 --> 07:13.810]  [SPEAKER_02]: We're going to do something that's going to outrage a few people.
[07:14.090 --> 07:15.250]  [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, the hotline is ringing.
[07:15.370 --> 07:18.430]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, that means that something is up.
[07:18.770 --> 07:22.930]  [SPEAKER_02]: So, 212-279-3400.
[07:23.090 --> 07:23.810]  [SPEAKER_02]: Please show your support.
[07:23.810 --> 07:24.750]  [SPEAKER_02]: We need to know you're out there.
[07:24.830 --> 07:27.970]  [SPEAKER_02]: We need to know that there are people out there appreciating what we are doing today.
[07:28.330 --> 07:28.730]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay?
[07:31.630 --> 07:32.710]  [SPEAKER_02]: Let's take some calls.
[07:33.010 --> 07:36.770]  [SPEAKER_02]: Let's take some calls, some listener calls, on our special line.
[07:37.530 --> 07:37.890]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay?
[07:38.050 --> 07:38.830]  [SPEAKER_02]: For listener feedback.
[07:39.030 --> 07:41.150]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's 212-279-3407.
[07:41.690 --> 07:42.190]  [SPEAKER_02]: All right?
[07:44.630 --> 07:47.510]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's to hear from you, to hear from the listeners, to see what's on your minds.
[07:48.770 --> 07:57.270]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, since we can't take calls on our regular lines because we're taking pledges on that line, we have to give out a different number.
[07:57.270 --> 08:00.310]  [SPEAKER_02]: So, that's 212-279-3407.
[08:00.810 --> 08:05.430]  [SPEAKER_02]: And for those of you making pledges, it's 212-279-3400.
[08:05.550 --> 08:05.890]  [SPEAKER_02]: Aha!
[08:06.230 --> 08:06.670]  Aha!
[08:06.950 --> 08:07.910]  [SPEAKER_02]: I caught you.
[08:07.990 --> 08:08.590]  [SPEAKER_02]: I knew it.
[08:08.950 --> 08:11.530]  [SPEAKER_02]: Those lines are lit up like a Christmas tree.
[08:11.670 --> 08:16.070]  [SPEAKER_02]: As soon as I ask for calls to go on the air, people call in immediately.
[08:17.050 --> 08:23.390]  [SPEAKER_02]: But if I ask for a little bit of support, a little bit of giving something back, the lines are dead.
[08:23.870 --> 08:24.750]  [SPEAKER_02]: There's nothing.
[08:26.610 --> 08:30.990]  [SPEAKER_02]: Folks, you made me resort to something I never wanted to do.
[08:31.290 --> 08:45.170]  [SPEAKER_02]: I never wanted to have to get our listeners to make fools of themselves by calling the number and winking lights in front of me and proving to me that you're only interested in one thing, and that's speaking your mind.
[08:45.330 --> 08:48.130]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, well, folks, you know, we're all interested in that.
[08:48.210 --> 08:50.710]  [SPEAKER_02]: We're all interested in standing up and saying something.
[08:51.890 --> 08:57.570]  [SPEAKER_02]: But, uh, that's not something that, uh, that is free.
[08:57.730 --> 08:59.170]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm sorry, it just is not.
[08:59.570 --> 09:00.710]  [SPEAKER_02]: I wish that it were.
[09:00.870 --> 09:01.870]  [SPEAKER_02]: We all wish that it were.
[09:03.270 --> 09:06.610]  [SPEAKER_02]: But, uh, we have to keep this station going.
[09:07.110 --> 09:09.710]  [SPEAKER_02]: You, me, everybody.
[09:09.990 --> 09:11.310]  [SPEAKER_02]: Everybody that cares about it.
[09:11.610 --> 09:14.330]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, okay, I know now we're on the air.
[09:14.330 --> 09:17.610]  [SPEAKER_02]: I know now that my voice is going out and people are listening.
[09:18.950 --> 09:19.670]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's good.
[09:20.350 --> 09:20.790]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay?
[09:21.910 --> 09:27.810]  [SPEAKER_02]: What's bad is the fact that all these people are on the wrong side of the switchboard.
[09:28.230 --> 09:28.670]  [SPEAKER_02]: Please.
[09:29.390 --> 09:30.650]  [SPEAKER_02]: We're going to take calls later.
[09:30.730 --> 09:31.070]  [SPEAKER_02]: We will.
[09:31.270 --> 09:35.510]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm sorry for, uh, you know, for having to demonstrate that on the air there.
[09:35.510 --> 09:40.890]  [SPEAKER_02]: We are going to take phone calls and we're going to squeeze everybody in sometime within the next hour.
[09:42.210 --> 09:45.690]  [SPEAKER_02]: But we do need to, uh, to make those numbers go up a little more.
[09:45.810 --> 09:47.030]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's, it's a, it's a good thing.
[09:47.070 --> 09:49.630]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, it's not, um, it's not something negative.
[09:49.750 --> 09:51.030]  [SPEAKER_02]: Don't think of it as a negative thing.
[09:51.190 --> 09:54.450]  [SPEAKER_02]: As, as people, uh, taking money from you.
[09:54.550 --> 09:56.490]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's not what we want to be thought of as.
[09:57.830 --> 10:00.510]  [SPEAKER_02]: WBAI is, is a part of a lot of people's lives.
[10:02.390 --> 10:04.450]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, most of us don't get paid here.
[10:04.790 --> 10:06.750]  [SPEAKER_02]: I certainly don't get paid for what I do here.
[10:07.230 --> 10:08.530]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I guess that's a good thing.
[10:10.150 --> 10:13.270]  [SPEAKER_02]: We want to be able to be here for you in the future.
[10:14.190 --> 10:17.510]  [SPEAKER_02]: We want to be able to bring you the programming that you want to hear.
[10:18.970 --> 10:19.990]  [SPEAKER_02]: We listen to you.
[10:20.050 --> 10:21.670]  [SPEAKER_02]: We listen to what you say to us.
[10:22.130 --> 10:24.870]  [SPEAKER_02]: And we give back whatever we can give back.
[10:25.050 --> 10:27.510]  [SPEAKER_02]: WBAI is a world-famous radio station.
[10:27.510 --> 10:36.510]  [SPEAKER_02]: When I was over in Amsterdam, uh, wandering around, not paying for my, uh, my, uh, train rides, people over there knew about WBAI.
[10:36.610 --> 10:41.010]  [SPEAKER_02]: In fact, uh, when I was in Berlin, I found a book in a bookstore about WBAI written in German.
[10:41.290 --> 10:43.430]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, it's a world-famous radio station.
[10:44.170 --> 10:47.470]  [SPEAKER_02]: But we got there through people like you.
[10:48.150 --> 10:53.750]  [SPEAKER_02]: Through people like you that cared enough to call in and say, yeah, here's my show of support.
[10:54.530 --> 10:56.210]  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it really does make a difference.
[10:56.210 --> 11:05.910]  [SPEAKER_02]: This is not like, uh, uh, watching Dr. Gene Scott on TV where he makes something like $10 million a night just by saying, call in, and nobody knows what he's even talking about.
[11:06.090 --> 11:06.290]  [SPEAKER_02]: No.
[11:06.670 --> 11:08.150]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's not what we're all about here.
[11:08.230 --> 11:10.750]  [SPEAKER_02]: We're a station where every individual person counts.
[11:10.990 --> 11:12.710]  [SPEAKER_02]: Every individual person means something.
[11:13.510 --> 11:16.930]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, one $25 pledge gets us closer.
[11:16.930 --> 11:20.150]  [SPEAKER_02]: A $50 pledge gets us even closer than that.
[11:20.910 --> 11:21.630]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know?
[11:22.010 --> 11:31.410]  [SPEAKER_02]: And before you know it, before you know it, it's, uh, in the hundreds, and in the thousands, and in the tens of thousands.
[11:31.410 --> 11:34.770]  [SPEAKER_02]: It happens, but it only happens through people like you.
[11:35.070 --> 11:37.150]  [SPEAKER_02]: We don't have corporate sponsorships.
[11:37.930 --> 11:41.770]  [SPEAKER_02]: We don't have huge grants coming our way.
[11:42.590 --> 11:43.930]  [SPEAKER_02]: And we don't sell commercials.
[11:44.250 --> 11:44.990]  [SPEAKER_02]: You may have noticed that.
[11:45.070 --> 11:45.970]  [SPEAKER_02]: We don't have commercials.
[11:46.530 --> 11:48.450]  [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, it's not because we can't get sponsors.
[11:48.550 --> 11:49.230]  [SPEAKER_02]: Of course we could.
[11:50.110 --> 11:54.350]  [SPEAKER_02]: We've got a 50,000-watt radio station smack in the middle of the FM dial in New York City.
[11:55.270 --> 12:03.070]  [SPEAKER_02]: But we don't want to put commercials on because the moment we did that, the moment we did that, imagine what we're about to do right now with the phone companies, okay?
[12:03.070 --> 12:04.910]  [SPEAKER_02]: We've got this thing all queued up, ready to go.
[12:05.870 --> 12:06.230]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay?
[12:06.890 --> 12:11.730]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, all it takes is one phone company to be one of our major sponsors.
[12:13.210 --> 12:13.910]  [SPEAKER_02]: Imagine that.
[12:14.350 --> 12:20.910]  [SPEAKER_02]: Do you think they would continue to be our major sponsor if we played what we were about to play?
[12:22.410 --> 12:23.290]  [SPEAKER_02]: Of course not.
[12:23.570 --> 12:26.450]  [SPEAKER_02]: They would threaten to pull all of their advertisements.
[12:26.950 --> 12:31.830]  [SPEAKER_02]: And then that would put us in a bit of a bind because then we'd have to say, well, what's more important?
[12:33.150 --> 12:42.170]  [SPEAKER_02]: Is it more important to have this Emmanuel Goldstein character come in here and play his little expose on the phone companies?
[12:42.190 --> 12:46.490]  [SPEAKER_02]: Or is it more important for us to get hundreds of thousands of dollars from these big corporations?
[12:47.590 --> 12:51.810]  [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think there are many stations that would opt for me over the phone companies.
[12:51.970 --> 12:56.150]  [SPEAKER_02]: But WBAI is one of them because WBAI refuses to have commercials.
[12:57.690 --> 13:04.930]  [SPEAKER_02]: We will never have commercials as long as this radio station is in any similar light as it is now.
[13:05.170 --> 13:06.370]  [SPEAKER_02]: We will not do that.
[13:06.690 --> 13:08.450]  [SPEAKER_02]: It goes contrary to everything that we stand for.
[13:09.530 --> 13:14.650]  [SPEAKER_02]: So, how do we raise the money without commercials?
[13:16.150 --> 13:18.670]  [SPEAKER_02]: You, folks, you are our sponsors.
[13:19.750 --> 13:21.610]  [SPEAKER_02]: And that's why we need you to call.
[13:22.450 --> 13:23.970]  [SPEAKER_02]: 212-279-3400.
[13:24.050 --> 13:25.410]  [SPEAKER_02]: I want to thank the people that have called in.
[13:26.130 --> 13:29.850]  [SPEAKER_02]: And please, we know it's 1 o'clock in the morning.
[13:29.850 --> 13:31.310]  [SPEAKER_02]: We're going to be here for another five hours.
[13:31.770 --> 13:33.570]  [SPEAKER_02]: We've got all kinds of neat things planned.
[13:33.610 --> 13:34.470]  [SPEAKER_02]: We really do.
[13:35.130 --> 13:36.730]  [SPEAKER_02]: And we're going to take those phone calls.
[13:36.830 --> 13:41.530]  [SPEAKER_02]: I do apologize to those people that called in before and, you know, to my little tirade there.
[13:41.650 --> 13:42.890]  [SPEAKER_02]: But it had to be said.
[13:43.230 --> 13:44.370]  [SPEAKER_02]: It just had to be said.
[13:45.790 --> 13:47.250]  [SPEAKER_02]: 212-279-3400.
[13:48.530 --> 13:51.330]  [SPEAKER_02]: I hope we made our goal because I did see some calls come in there.
[13:51.710 --> 13:52.930]  [SPEAKER_02]: And it sure would be nice.
[13:53.070 --> 13:56.690]  [SPEAKER_02]: It would make me feel great to know that there are people out there that care.
[13:57.410 --> 13:57.870]  [SPEAKER_02]: All right.
[13:57.910 --> 14:00.810]  [SPEAKER_02]: We're going to play a musical bit here from the specials.
[14:01.070 --> 14:02.330]  [SPEAKER_02]: And then, folks, get ready.
[14:02.390 --> 14:03.890]  [SPEAKER_02]: You might want to make some phone calls beforehand.
[14:03.890 --> 14:06.290]  [SPEAKER_02]: We've got about three minutes here before we start.
[14:06.790 --> 14:14.090]  [SPEAKER_02]: We're going to do an expose on long-distance phone companies and how they interrelate.
[14:16.130 --> 14:17.010]  [SPEAKER_02]: Remember that number.
[14:17.130 --> 14:18.770]  [SPEAKER_02]: 212-279-3400.
[14:48.560 --> 14:50.700]  [SPEAKER_35]: What you're going to do?
[14:58.620 --> 15:11.400]  [SPEAKER_35]: Because we've come out to stay Stand there like Mark Because if you want to We can force you to enjoy this music Take it or leave it We'll catch
[15:19.770 --> 15:28.490]  [SPEAKER_35]: It's up to you It's up to you It's up to you
[15:47.880 --> 16:00.560]  [SPEAKER_35]: You must be bored out of your pants Take it or leave it We'll carry on regardless If you don't like it You don't have to dance It's up to you It's up to you, fight!
[16:01.000 --> 16:03.920]  [SPEAKER_35]: It's up to you, fight!
[16:04.440 --> 16:07.100]  [SPEAKER_35]: It's up to you, unite!
[16:08.420 --> 16:10.340]  [SPEAKER_35]: It's up to you, fight!
[16:14.020 --> 16:23.060]  [SPEAKER_46]: In London, you can hear the youth of them say, it's up to you what you really want to do.
[16:24.120 --> 16:27.220]  [SPEAKER_46]: For you are standing on the corner giving trouble.
[16:27.740 --> 16:32.340]  [SPEAKER_46]: When the policeman comes, he says you'll have to move on the double.
[16:33.040 --> 16:33.720]  [SPEAKER_46]: Yeah!
[16:34.940 --> 16:40.560]  [SPEAKER_46]: So stepping up the street with my little girl, with the staples to her anchors.
[16:41.220 --> 16:44.320]  [SPEAKER_46]: It's up to her what you really want to do.
[16:44.600 --> 16:47.580]  [SPEAKER_46]: It's up to you, you, and strictly you and you.
[16:48.980 --> 16:50.940]  What you gonna do?
[16:51.200 --> 16:51.720]  The
[17:00.100 --> 17:02.080]  [SPEAKER_35]: whole world way too bright.
[17:02.540 --> 17:03.920]  [SPEAKER_35]: It's up to you.
[17:05.940 --> 17:07.360]  [SPEAKER_35]: It's up to you.
[17:09.210 --> 17:10.860]  [SPEAKER_35]: It's up to you.
[17:12.660 --> 17:14.990]  [SPEAKER_35]: It's up to you.
[17:16.060 --> 17:17.680]  [SPEAKER_35]: It's up to you.
[17:19.460 --> 17:21.060]  [SPEAKER_35]: It's up to you.
[17:32.460 --> 17:33.340]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's
[17:39.070 --> 17:52.910]  [SPEAKER_02]: up to you.
[17:52.910 --> 17:57.430]  [SPEAKER_02]: Grab some poor soul and try to make them wish they had never been born.
[17:59.770 --> 18:00.970]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's all in good fun.
[18:12.690 --> 18:16.950]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, let me preface this by explaining something to our listeners.
[18:18.970 --> 18:30.890]  [SPEAKER_02]: When the phone company broke up back in 1984, basically you were left with your local phone company, which in our case is called New York Telephone, okay?
[18:30.890 --> 18:33.650]  [SPEAKER_02]: New York Telephone is our local phone company.
[18:33.850 --> 18:37.930]  [SPEAKER_02]: When you pick up the phone, they're the ones that give you the dial tone.
[18:38.710 --> 18:43.010]  [SPEAKER_02]: And then you have your long-distance companies.
[18:43.350 --> 18:47.930]  [SPEAKER_02]: Among the long-distance companies are AT&T, Sprint, and MCI.
[18:48.110 --> 18:49.550]  [SPEAKER_02]: Those are three long-distance companies.
[18:49.670 --> 18:56.170]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, the whole term of the breakup was that there is no connection and everybody is equal.
[18:56.350 --> 19:00.690]  [SPEAKER_02]: In other words, AT&T, MCI, and Sprint are all equal now.
[19:00.890 --> 19:09.870]  [SPEAKER_02]: And there is no connection between AT&T, Sprint, MCI, or your local phone company, New York Telephone.
[19:10.090 --> 19:11.450]  [SPEAKER_02]: No connection whatsoever.
[19:11.450 --> 19:22.770]  [SPEAKER_02]: So, let's reach out and touch a New York Telephone operator and ask her what the story is here.
[19:28.360 --> 19:29.300]  [SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes it takes them a long time.
[19:29.320 --> 19:30.260]  [SPEAKER_28]: New York Telephone.
[19:30.540 --> 19:31.520]  [SPEAKER_28]: One moment, please.
[19:32.680 --> 19:33.920]  [SPEAKER_02]: They have to play that now.
[19:34.040 --> 19:34.380]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's a lock.
[19:34.560 --> 19:35.000]  [SPEAKER_28]: Operator?
[19:35.680 --> 19:36.340]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, hello.
[19:36.480 --> 19:40.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: I was wondering if you can connect me to an MCI operator.
[19:45.520 --> 19:46.680]  [SPEAKER_25]: I don't know the number.
[19:46.760 --> 19:47.520]  [SPEAKER_25]: Let me connect information.
[19:50.840 --> 19:52.920]  [SPEAKER_25]: Hey, on Telephone 9, may I help you?
[19:53.400 --> 19:54.820]  [SPEAKER_51]: This is information, isn't it?
[19:54.960 --> 19:55.160]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yes.
[19:55.580 --> 19:57.280]  [SPEAKER_51]: And I suppose there's a charge for this call.
[19:58.900 --> 20:02.040]  [SPEAKER_02]: That was a very nasty thing to do for that operator to connect me to you, isn't it?
[20:02.800 --> 20:03.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, well.
[20:03.600 --> 20:04.540]  [SPEAKER_35]: What is it you wanted?
[20:04.540 --> 20:09.920]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I wanted to be connected to an MCI operator and the local operator connected me to information.
[20:10.080 --> 20:15.720]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I know there's a charge for information, so now I'm going to have to pay 45 cents for this call and I won't even get an MCI operator, will I?
[20:15.980 --> 20:16.760]  [SPEAKER_03]: No, hold it.
[20:16.880 --> 20:18.000]  [SPEAKER_03]: Why should you do that?
[20:18.100 --> 20:21.500]  [SPEAKER_03]: Because I have to give you the number for the MCI operator.
[20:21.860 --> 20:23.400]  [SPEAKER_51]: Okay, what's the number for the MCI operator?
[20:23.580 --> 20:24.340]  [SPEAKER_03]: Hold on a second.
[20:25.380 --> 20:26.200]  [SPEAKER_51]: This ought to be good.
[20:29.610 --> 20:31.430]  [SPEAKER_03]: And that's the number you don't have to pay?
[20:32.250 --> 20:33.370]  [SPEAKER_03]: The 800 number?
[20:34.110 --> 20:35.230]  [SPEAKER_51]: An 800 number, okay.
[20:35.230 --> 20:39.550]  [SPEAKER_03]: 444-3333.
[20:42.830 --> 20:43.790]  [SPEAKER_03]: 444-3333.
[20:45.750 --> 20:46.230]  [SPEAKER_51]: 3333.
[20:46.450 --> 20:46.810]  [SPEAKER_51]: Right.
[20:47.050 --> 20:47.430]  [SPEAKER_51]: Okay.
[20:47.950 --> 20:48.890]  [SPEAKER_03]: You dial one first.
[20:49.350 --> 20:49.810]  [SPEAKER_51]: All right.
[20:50.210 --> 20:51.650]  [SPEAKER_51]: And that's 800 call.
[20:51.830 --> 20:52.190]  [SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[20:52.350 --> 20:52.750]  [SPEAKER_51]: All right.
[20:53.150 --> 20:54.010]  [SPEAKER_03]: Have a good night.
[20:54.150 --> 20:54.530]  [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.
[20:54.710 --> 20:55.110]  [SPEAKER_02]: You too.
[20:55.310 --> 20:55.610]  [SPEAKER_02]: Good night.
[20:56.430 --> 20:59.830]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, what she didn't mention, of course, was that that was local information.
[20:59.830 --> 21:03.710]  [SPEAKER_02]: I could have called 800 information and gotten an 800 number and not paid anything.
[21:05.810 --> 21:08.290]  [SPEAKER_02]: But, that's not how they do things in the phone company, is it?
[21:08.330 --> 21:08.550]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[21:09.310 --> 21:15.450]  [SPEAKER_02]: So, that's what happens when we try asking for an MCI operator from our local New York telephone operator.
[21:15.650 --> 21:15.990]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[21:16.130 --> 21:16.570]  [SPEAKER_02]: Makes sense.
[21:16.730 --> 21:17.350]  [SPEAKER_02]: There's no connection.
[21:17.350 --> 21:18.490]  [SPEAKER_02]: They shouldn't tell us.
[21:18.530 --> 21:21.710]  [SPEAKER_02]: They shouldn't be able to connect us to a long distance operator, right?
[21:21.950 --> 21:22.570]  [SPEAKER_02]: Of course not.
[21:23.130 --> 21:23.990]  [SPEAKER_02]: Doesn't make sense.
[21:24.830 --> 21:28.570]  [SPEAKER_02]: Let's see if they connect us to a sprint operator.
[21:32.420 --> 21:33.900]  [SPEAKER_02]: Here's a stupid recording again.
[21:35.020 --> 21:36.100]  [SPEAKER_28]: New York telephone.
[21:36.540 --> 21:37.500]  [SPEAKER_28]: One moment, please.
[21:51.810 --> 21:52.850]  [SPEAKER_29]: Miss White, can I help you?
[21:53.210 --> 21:53.710]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, yes.
[21:53.770 --> 21:54.270]  [SPEAKER_02]: Hi, operator.
[21:54.430 --> 21:57.050]  [SPEAKER_02]: I was wondering if you could connect me to a U.S.
[21:57.190 --> 21:57.950]  [SPEAKER_02]: sprint operator.
[21:58.670 --> 21:59.490]  [SPEAKER_02]: What is the number?
[22:00.190 --> 22:02.070]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, I'm trying to reach U.S.
[22:02.210 --> 22:02.390]  [SPEAKER_02]: sprint.
[22:03.710 --> 22:05.250]  [SPEAKER_25]: Do they have a toll-free number?
[22:05.830 --> 22:07.730]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, well, that's what I don't know.
[22:07.950 --> 22:08.950]  [SPEAKER_02]: What's just an operator?
[22:09.270 --> 22:10.250]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, long distance operator.
[22:10.330 --> 22:10.470]  [SPEAKER_02]: What are you calling?
[22:10.570 --> 22:10.930]  [SPEAKER_28]: Long distance?
[22:11.210 --> 22:12.270]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I'm trying to get long distance.
[22:12.270 --> 22:13.270]  [SPEAKER_02]: One moment, please.
[22:16.540 --> 22:19.320]  [SPEAKER_28]: One moment for an operator who can assist you.
[22:19.860 --> 22:20.540]  [SPEAKER_28]: Thank you.
[22:20.780 --> 22:22.460]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, she's connecting me to long distance.
[22:22.940 --> 22:24.060]  [SPEAKER_02]: I asked for sprint.
[22:24.360 --> 22:25.420]  [SPEAKER_02]: I wonder if I'll get sprint.
[22:25.720 --> 22:26.460]  [SPEAKER_44]: AT&T.
[22:26.900 --> 22:28.620]  [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, this is AT&T?
[22:28.900 --> 22:29.300]  [SPEAKER_44]: Yes.
[22:29.640 --> 22:32.260]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, it's funny, because I asked my local operator to connect me to sprint.
[22:32.900 --> 22:34.340]  [SPEAKER_44]: Oh, okay, you want to try it again?
[22:34.520 --> 22:35.780]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, can you connect me to sprint?
[22:35.980 --> 22:36.820]  [SPEAKER_44]: No, no, sir.
[22:37.020 --> 22:38.680]  [SPEAKER_02]: Can you tell me how to call sprint?
[22:38.920 --> 22:41.460]  [SPEAKER_44]: We have no idea how to call each other carrier.
[22:41.920 --> 22:43.220]  [SPEAKER_51]: You don't know how to call them?
[22:43.220 --> 22:45.420]  [SPEAKER_44]: We don't know how to call sprint or MCI.
[22:45.860 --> 22:47.880]  [SPEAKER_51]: Oh, so I guess you use AT&T, too, then.
[22:48.180 --> 22:48.700]  [SPEAKER_44]: Well, of course.
[22:49.000 --> 22:49.160]  [SPEAKER_44]: All right.
[22:49.620 --> 22:50.680]  [SPEAKER_51]: Okay, well, thanks anyway.
[22:50.900 --> 22:51.180]  [SPEAKER_44]: You're welcome.
[22:52.080 --> 22:52.440]  [SPEAKER_51]: Okay.
[22:52.780 --> 22:54.840]  [SPEAKER_51]: Well, then, we know that AT&T...
[22:54.840 --> 22:55.980]  [SPEAKER_51]: Okay, we've got to start writing this down here.
[22:56.200 --> 22:58.460]  [SPEAKER_02]: AT&T will not tell us how to reach sprint.
[22:58.920 --> 23:03.640]  [SPEAKER_02]: New York Telephone, when asked to connect us to sprint, will connect us to AT&T.
[23:04.120 --> 23:09.160]  [SPEAKER_02]: And New York Telephone, when asked to connect us to MCI, will connect us to information, which will then charge us.
[23:09.860 --> 23:10.120]  [SPEAKER_02]: All right.
[23:10.200 --> 23:11.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: There's still a couple other things we have to try here.
[23:12.420 --> 23:19.960]  [SPEAKER_02]: We have to try calling our local operator and asking for AT&T.
[23:20.180 --> 23:22.060]  [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe they'll connect us to MCI, okay?
[23:22.060 --> 23:24.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe it's just a clerical blunder.
[23:26.300 --> 23:27.400]  [SPEAKER_02]: Stupid recording time.
[23:30.430 --> 23:31.730]  [SPEAKER_28]: New York Telephone.
[23:32.070 --> 23:33.010]  [SPEAKER_28]: One moment, please.
[23:33.290 --> 23:33.990]  [SPEAKER_51]: Sure, no problem.
[23:34.050 --> 23:36.450]  [SPEAKER_02]: I've got plenty of time to sit here and wait for this stupid recording.
[23:36.770 --> 23:37.870]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, yes, hello, operator.
[23:37.950 --> 23:40.270]  [SPEAKER_02]: I was wondering if you could connect me to the AT&T operator.
[23:40.590 --> 23:40.970]  [SPEAKER_28]: Sure.
[23:41.290 --> 23:41.730]  [SPEAKER_02]: Sure!
[23:42.070 --> 23:42.970]  [SPEAKER_02]: No problem!
[23:43.370 --> 23:44.050]  [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, wonderful.
[23:44.050 --> 23:45.970]  [SPEAKER_28]: One moment for an operator who can assist you.
[23:45.970 --> 23:46.590]  [SPEAKER_02]: How nice.
[23:46.790 --> 23:47.130]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know...
[23:47.130 --> 23:47.470]  [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.
[23:47.510 --> 23:49.970]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's amazing to think that there's no connection between these companies anymore.
[23:50.630 --> 23:53.290]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, let's ask AT&T if they can connect us.
[23:53.450 --> 23:54.890]  [SPEAKER_02]: Or tell us how to call MCI.
[23:55.110 --> 23:55.810]  [SPEAKER_26]: AT&T.
[23:56.190 --> 23:56.530]  [SPEAKER_02]: Hi.
[23:56.710 --> 23:59.830]  [SPEAKER_02]: I was wondering if you could tell me how to call the MCI operator.
[24:00.110 --> 24:01.190]  [SPEAKER_26]: I have no idea, sir.
[24:01.270 --> 24:02.110]  [SPEAKER_26]: I'm AT&T.
[24:02.470 --> 24:04.030]  [SPEAKER_02]: You're AT&T and you have no...
[24:04.030 --> 24:04.270]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[24:04.470 --> 24:04.710]  [SPEAKER_02]: All right.
[24:04.790 --> 24:05.210]  [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks anyway.
[24:05.450 --> 24:05.750]  [SPEAKER_02]: Bye, sir.
[24:06.010 --> 24:07.410]  [SPEAKER_02]: I happen to know...
[24:07.890 --> 24:09.130]  [SPEAKER_02]: I've been holding out on you folks.
[24:09.190 --> 24:13.230]  [SPEAKER_02]: I happen to know the number for the MCI operator.
[24:14.010 --> 24:15.330]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's not the number they gave us.
[24:15.370 --> 24:17.350]  [SPEAKER_02]: That was like the business office.
[24:17.990 --> 24:19.870]  [SPEAKER_02]: This will get us an actual operator.
[24:21.050 --> 24:27.930]  [SPEAKER_02]: And we can ask the MCI operator if they know how to connect us or if they know how to tell us to dial AT&T.
[24:28.550 --> 24:30.330]  [SPEAKER_02]: Let's see how fair this whole system is.
[24:39.460 --> 24:40.840]  [SPEAKER_08]: Thank you for calling MCI.
[24:41.040 --> 24:41.420]  [SPEAKER_08]: This is Jan.
[24:41.420 --> 24:42.220]  [SPEAKER_08]: How may I help you?
[24:42.420 --> 24:42.760]  [SPEAKER_02]: Hi.
[24:42.880 --> 24:47.100]  [SPEAKER_02]: I was wondering if you could possibly tell me how to call an AT&T operator.
[24:48.320 --> 24:49.220]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yes, I can.
[24:49.660 --> 24:52.700]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's 1-0-2-8-8-8-plus-0.
[24:53.380 --> 24:54.180]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, that's great.
[24:54.480 --> 25:01.960]  [SPEAKER_02]: I was wondering, do you possibly know why AT&T never tells you how to call MCI, but MCI seems to always tell you how to call AT&T?
[25:02.160 --> 25:03.500]  [SPEAKER_26]: Because we're better people.
[25:03.860 --> 25:04.080]  [SPEAKER_26]: Ah.
[25:04.240 --> 25:05.880]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I was toying with that idea.
[25:06.040 --> 25:06.900]  [SPEAKER_51]: I think that might be it.
[25:07.220 --> 25:07.660]  All right.
[25:08.340 --> 25:09.140]  [SPEAKER_51]: Thanks very much.
[25:09.320 --> 25:10.380]  [SPEAKER_08]: You're just great guys.
[25:10.660 --> 25:12.720]  [SPEAKER_51]: Yeah, well, I think you're approving that here.
[25:12.860 --> 25:13.520]  [SPEAKER_51]: Thank you very much.
[25:13.640 --> 25:14.740]  [SPEAKER_08]: Thank you for calling MCI.
[25:14.880 --> 25:15.480]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, good night.
[25:15.760 --> 25:16.080]  [SPEAKER_08]: Good night.
[25:16.600 --> 25:18.820]  [SPEAKER_02]: All right, let's try one more phone call here.
[25:18.920 --> 25:20.420]  [SPEAKER_02]: And this will be to U.S.
[25:20.580 --> 25:20.860]  [SPEAKER_02]: Sprint.
[25:21.500 --> 25:21.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: All right.
[25:22.280 --> 25:23.960]  [SPEAKER_02]: I also have the number for their operators.
[25:24.400 --> 25:26.560]  [SPEAKER_02]: Let's see if they'll tell us how to call AT&T.
[25:28.320 --> 25:34.560]  [SPEAKER_02]: I hope you're writing all this down too, folks, because it's confusing us as well as the operators, but we're certainly learning something here.
[25:35.780 --> 25:36.720]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's a sobering thing.
[25:36.800 --> 25:40.480]  [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, by the way, we're going to get a tone here first, and then it's going to turn into an operator.
[25:42.860 --> 25:44.960]  [SPEAKER_51]: It's kind of a silly system, but that's the way they do it.
[25:47.990 --> 25:50.310]  [SPEAKER_02]: Just waiting for the tone to go around is what we're doing.
[25:50.850 --> 25:51.470]  [SPEAKER_02]: There we go.
[25:55.900 --> 25:57.420]  [SPEAKER_26]: Speed and long distance, may I help you?
[25:57.780 --> 25:58.380]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, hi.
[25:58.380 --> 26:02.880]  [SPEAKER_02]: I was wondering if you could possibly tell me how to connect to an AT&T operator.
[26:03.420 --> 26:04.040]  [SPEAKER_26]: Okay, sir.
[26:04.300 --> 26:08.460]  [SPEAKER_26]: For the phone you're using, you dialed the 1-800 number to reach Sprint, correct?
[26:08.860 --> 26:14.680]  [SPEAKER_02]: I dialed the 1-800 number, yes, but I just wanted to know if it was possible for me to dial an AT&T operator and how to do that.
[26:15.360 --> 26:22.420]  [SPEAKER_26]: Well, okay, not knowing what you're dialing from, normally you could either dial 00 depending on who your phone's pre-subscribed to.
[26:22.740 --> 26:23.120]  [SPEAKER_30]: Uh-huh.
[26:23.280 --> 26:26.620]  [SPEAKER_26]: If you had to dial 1-800 number to reach me, you may have Sprint on your line.
[26:26.760 --> 26:30.180]  [SPEAKER_26]: I mean, you may have AT&T, excuse me, in which case you could dial 00.
[26:30.460 --> 26:33.740]  [SPEAKER_26]: If not, you could dial their access code, sir, and I could give that to you.
[26:33.860 --> 26:34.560]  [SPEAKER_51]: Okay, what's that?
[26:34.560 --> 26:37.660]  [SPEAKER_26]: It's 1-0-2-8-8-0.
[26:38.200 --> 26:40.720]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, 1-0-2-8-8-0 will get me AT&T.
[26:40.840 --> 26:41.820]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'd like to ask you something.
[26:41.980 --> 26:43.040]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'll have you on the line.
[26:43.240 --> 26:43.580]  [SPEAKER_35]: Yes, sir.
[26:43.640 --> 26:44.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: How come AT...
[26:44.980 --> 26:53.760]  [SPEAKER_02]: When I ask AT&T the same question with regards to Sprint, they never tell you how to get a hold of Sprint, but Sprint almost always tells you how to get a hold of AT&T.
[26:53.820 --> 26:54.620]  [SPEAKER_02]: Is there a reason for that?
[26:55.460 --> 26:59.340]  [SPEAKER_26]: Well, we're just trained to provide whatever information the customer asks.
[26:59.620 --> 27:00.160]  [SPEAKER_51]: I see.
[27:00.360 --> 27:01.420]  [SPEAKER_51]: Well, I'm glad you are.
[27:01.620 --> 27:02.380]  [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks very much.
[27:02.380 --> 27:03.700]  [SPEAKER_26]: And thank you for using Sprint, sir.
[27:03.700 --> 27:04.400]  [SPEAKER_02]: You have a good day.
[27:04.520 --> 27:04.780]  [SPEAKER_02]: You too.
[27:05.560 --> 27:06.420]  [SPEAKER_02]: What nice people.
[27:06.520 --> 27:18.020]  [SPEAKER_02]: And folks, hopefully you'll think twice now when you stand up on your soapbox and say AT&T has been around for centuries and they're the better long-distance company.
[27:18.080 --> 27:18.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, look at what they're doing here.
[27:19.340 --> 27:22.160]  [SPEAKER_02]: They're refusing to tell you how to get a hold of their competition.
[27:22.240 --> 27:26.260]  [SPEAKER_02]: And they're still in bed with the local phone company, New York Telephone.
[27:26.360 --> 27:27.900]  [SPEAKER_02]: New York Telephone connects you to AT&T.
[27:27.980 --> 27:29.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: They don't connect you to Sprint.
[27:29.380 --> 27:30.400]  [SPEAKER_02]: They don't connect you to MCI.
[27:30.520 --> 27:31.500]  [SPEAKER_02]: I rest my case.
[27:33.300 --> 27:35.960]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's all for Confuse the Operator today.
[27:39.180 --> 27:41.220]  [SPEAKER_02]: Confuse the Consumer is more like it.
[27:43.280 --> 27:46.460]  [SPEAKER_02]: But the best consumer is an outraged consumer.
[27:46.780 --> 27:48.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: And keep that in mind.
[28:09.450 --> 28:10.410]  [SPEAKER_02]: Had enough?
[28:11.910 --> 28:13.610]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, give us a call.
[28:13.730 --> 28:15.490]  [SPEAKER_02]: 212-279-3400.
[28:15.710 --> 28:20.470]  [SPEAKER_02]: Show your support for WBAI radio at its most controversial.
[28:20.470 --> 28:21.050]  [SPEAKER_02]: Show on.
[28:30.720 --> 28:42.820]  [SPEAKER_35]: I've had enough of trying to love my brother Ooh, I've had enough of being good If
[28:46.160 --> 28:50.480]  [SPEAKER_35]: you need a lover You better find enough
[28:53.580 --> 29:02.980]  [SPEAKER_35]: I've had enough of being good Life is for the living Ooh, yeah Take us
[29:07.840 --> 29:15.840]  [SPEAKER_07]: Cause vision takes the place of trust I'd love to turn you into love.
[29:16.140 --> 29:21.040]  [SPEAKER_35]: If you get on the wrong side of me, you better run for cover.
[29:24.300 --> 29:27.440]  [SPEAKER_31]: I've had enough of being tired of dawn.
[29:28.140 --> 29:31.160]  [SPEAKER_35]: My messy days are going to be long gone.
[29:31.540 --> 29:36.120]  [SPEAKER_35]: If it's that one cheek, well, I ain't going to turn the other.
[29:37.430 --> 29:44.190]  [SPEAKER_35]: Life is for the living.
[29:47.220 --> 29:51.340]  [SPEAKER_35]: Takers never give.
[30:16.790 --> 30:18.530]  [SPEAKER_07]: Here comes the end.
[30:19.810 --> 30:23.530]  [SPEAKER_35]: Here comes the end of the world.
[31:27.430 --> 31:30.710]  [SPEAKER_35]: Oh, I'm getting sick of this universe.
[31:31.270 --> 31:34.750]  [SPEAKER_35]: Ain't going to get better, it's going to get worse.
[31:34.930 --> 31:37.790]  [SPEAKER_35]: And the world's going to see you in the way I
[31:49.040 --> 31:49.610]  hate you.
[31:49.700 --> 31:54.590]  [SPEAKER_07]: If you find somewhere better, can you save my place?
[31:57.820 --> 32:03.300]  [SPEAKER_35]: Fooling no one but our soul.
[32:04.660 --> 32:08.090]  [SPEAKER_35]: Love is for you.
[32:08.680 --> 32:10.040]  [SPEAKER_35]: Here comes the end.
[32:11.300 --> 32:13.980]  [SPEAKER_35]: Here comes the end.
[32:21.200 --> 32:35.260]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, it may not be the end of the world, but, uh, you know, when they, uh, when they try to put it to you by, uh, by fooling you, by saying things that are not true, it could be the end of, uh, of an intelligent choice.
[32:35.260 --> 32:36.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: Let's put it that way.
[32:36.200 --> 32:40.400]  [SPEAKER_02]: Anyway, I hope, uh, I hope a lot of folks learn something by what you just heard.
[32:40.500 --> 32:41.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: Not, uh, not the who.
[32:41.380 --> 32:41.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: The who are great.
[32:42.040 --> 32:44.120]  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, uh, yeah, you can learn a lot from them.
[32:44.880 --> 32:46.540]  [SPEAKER_02]: Especially how to express your anger.
[32:46.800 --> 32:49.660]  [SPEAKER_02]: But I'm referring to the, uh, the phone companies.
[32:50.540 --> 32:54.520]  [SPEAKER_02]: And how, uh, how equal access is not as equal as it might seem.
[32:54.660 --> 32:57.560]  [SPEAKER_02]: And how it's actually just more confusing for all of you.
[32:58.280 --> 32:59.760]  [SPEAKER_02]: And that's, uh, that's a tragedy.
[33:00.960 --> 33:07.700]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, uh, we want to encourage people to call us up and help keep this radio station going.
[33:07.920 --> 33:10.420]  [SPEAKER_02]: Help us keep bits like that coming your way.
[33:10.420 --> 33:17.460]  [SPEAKER_02]: Because, uh, I have every intention of devoting every hour of my waking day to finding things like that.
[33:17.880 --> 33:19.920]  [SPEAKER_02]: And to, uh, sharing them with you.
[33:20.080 --> 33:22.960]  [SPEAKER_02]: But in order for there to be a place for me to do this.
[33:23.200 --> 33:26.840]  [SPEAKER_02]: A place where we don't have to worry about AT&T pulling all of its spots.
[33:26.840 --> 33:27.600]  [SPEAKER_02]: Because imagine that.
[33:27.680 --> 33:30.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I could not go on, on the, uh, talk radio station.
[33:31.160 --> 33:32.380]  [SPEAKER_02]: Whatever that might be this week.
[33:32.420 --> 33:33.300]  [SPEAKER_02]: I could not do that.
[33:33.800 --> 33:34.600]  [SPEAKER_02]: No way.
[33:34.980 --> 33:36.460]  [SPEAKER_02]: They would not stand for it.
[33:36.600 --> 33:39.240]  [SPEAKER_02]: Because AT&T would get very angry.
[33:39.480 --> 33:41.500]  [SPEAKER_02]: And not only would they, uh, pull their spots.
[33:41.560 --> 33:42.700]  [SPEAKER_02]: They may pull their phones.
[33:43.320 --> 33:43.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: Who knows?
[33:45.100 --> 33:46.760]  [SPEAKER_02]: We don't have concerns like that here.
[33:46.840 --> 33:47.900]  [SPEAKER_02]: But we do have other concerns.
[33:47.900 --> 33:49.120]  [SPEAKER_02]: And they're a bit more pressing.
[33:49.340 --> 33:50.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: We need to stay afloat.
[33:51.120 --> 33:52.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: And you can help us do that.
[33:52.340 --> 33:54.260]  [SPEAKER_02]: 212-279-3400.
[33:54.260 --> 33:58.660]  [SPEAKER_02]: And every pledge that comes in, we'll get a free copy of, uh, 2600.
[33:58.840 --> 34:02.480]  [SPEAKER_02]: The Hacker Quarterly sent to wherever it is you want us to send it.
[34:02.600 --> 34:04.680]  [SPEAKER_02]: And you'll learn quite a bit from that publication.
[34:04.680 --> 34:06.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's been coming out now since 1984.
[34:07.460 --> 34:12.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, um, has, uh, been enlightening people and enraging people.
[34:12.340 --> 34:13.160]  [SPEAKER_02]: Left and right.
[34:14.120 --> 34:16.380]  [SPEAKER_02]: The magazine with no enemies has no friends.
[34:16.380 --> 34:18.480]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's sort of what we like to say.
[34:19.240 --> 34:22.960]  [SPEAKER_02]: Why is someone holding a can of kidney beans up on the, uh, up on the monitor there?
[34:23.000 --> 34:26.320]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's, uh, I'm trying to figure out what, uh, red kidney beans.
[34:26.460 --> 34:28.540]  [SPEAKER_02]: What, uh, what kind of a message could that be conveying?
[34:28.980 --> 34:30.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, I'm not quite certain.
[34:30.800 --> 34:31.620]  [SPEAKER_02]: Not quite certain.
[34:31.760 --> 34:33.820]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, well, progress is something that we definitely want.
[34:34.740 --> 34:36.300]  [SPEAKER_02]: 212-279-3400.
[34:36.480 --> 34:38.780]  [SPEAKER_02]: Area code, uh, 212.
[34:39.620 --> 34:42.840]  [SPEAKER_02]: Please give us a call and, uh, show your support for the radio station.
[34:42.840 --> 34:44.480]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, we're going to take some phone calls.
[34:44.620 --> 34:46.040]  [SPEAKER_02]: Some, yes, some over-the-air phone calls.
[34:46.080 --> 34:46.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: And this is not a trick, folks.
[34:47.060 --> 34:47.760]  [SPEAKER_02]: Not like last time.
[34:48.560 --> 34:50.620]  [SPEAKER_02]: 212-279-3407 for that.
[34:50.940 --> 34:52.640]  [SPEAKER_02]: And we'll be getting to that in just a couple of minutes.
[34:53.300 --> 34:56.640]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, let's, uh, give you a rundown of some of the things that you can get.
[34:56.780 --> 34:58.160]  [SPEAKER_02]: Boy, those calls sure come in fast.
[34:58.220 --> 35:02.240]  [SPEAKER_02]: I don't mean to say it again, but those calls really come in fast when I, when I give that number out.
[35:02.700 --> 35:07.700]  [SPEAKER_02]: I just wish I could see, you know, all the lines light up on the, um, on the pledge line.
[35:07.780 --> 35:09.220]  [SPEAKER_02]: That would be, that would make me feel so good.
[35:10.160 --> 35:14.480]  [SPEAKER_02]: But, but I guess, uh, I guess there's only so much you can, uh, you can hope for in this life.
[35:15.560 --> 35:27.220]  [SPEAKER_02]: If, though, you are feeling generous, or if you can spare some, uh, some change, if you can use your Visa or MasterCard, do give a call to 279-3400 because every call counts.
[35:27.840 --> 35:30.000]  [SPEAKER_02]: And that's, uh, not false sincerity there.
[35:30.080 --> 35:30.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: That is the truth.
[35:31.060 --> 35:33.000]  [SPEAKER_02]: That is the, the real truth.
[35:33.600 --> 35:34.800]  [SPEAKER_02]: Every person counts.
[35:35.460 --> 35:42.100]  [SPEAKER_02]: Unlike those, uh, those evangelistical places that you might hear asking for money constantly every day.
[35:42.220 --> 35:44.160]  [SPEAKER_02]: We only do this three times a year.
[35:45.340 --> 35:46.960]  [SPEAKER_02]: And it's kept us going this far.
[35:47.980 --> 35:50.540]  [SPEAKER_02]: Please help us keep going into the future.
[35:50.620 --> 35:51.860]  [SPEAKER_02]: We don't want to end up like New York City.
[35:52.040 --> 35:56.220]  [SPEAKER_02]: We don't want to be crumbling and falling apart and, uh, cutting things that don't deserve to be cut.
[35:56.840 --> 35:58.400]  [SPEAKER_02]: No, we don't want that to happen.
[35:58.480 --> 35:59.700]  [SPEAKER_02]: Imagine if that did happen.
[35:59.900 --> 36:00.740]  [SPEAKER_02]: It would be awful.
[36:00.960 --> 36:02.080]  [SPEAKER_02]: It would be absolutely horrible.
[36:02.780 --> 36:05.420]  [SPEAKER_02]: So, uh, help us stay afloat.
[36:05.520 --> 36:10.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: 212-279-3400 for a pledge of $150.
[36:10.640 --> 36:15.760]  [SPEAKER_02]: You can, uh, become part of the Learning Alliance for the fall semester.
[36:15.980 --> 36:19.560]  [SPEAKER_02]: You can take any course from October to January.
[36:19.860 --> 36:21.960]  [SPEAKER_02]: The fall semester runs from October to January.
[36:22.380 --> 36:31.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: And they, uh, range in topics from, uh, ecology, feminism, areas, community, uh, subject matters, uh, humor.
[36:32.080 --> 36:32.840]  [SPEAKER_02]: That kind of thing.
[36:33.460 --> 36:35.400]  [SPEAKER_02]: And that's for a pledge of $150.
[36:36.220 --> 36:37.920]  [SPEAKER_02]: Become a part of the Learning Alliance.
[36:38.380 --> 36:40.080]  [SPEAKER_02]: For a pledge of $500.
[36:40.740 --> 36:42.080]  [SPEAKER_02]: Sounds like a lot of money.
[36:42.300 --> 36:43.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: I guess it is a lot of money.
[36:43.580 --> 36:47.960]  [SPEAKER_02]: But, uh, if you can afford $500, you can get something that's worth much more than $500.
[36:48.360 --> 36:48.760]  [SPEAKER_02]: Much more.
[36:49.060 --> 36:56.740]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's a one-year unlimited admission for two people to the new community cinema of Huntington, Long Island.
[36:57.280 --> 36:57.760]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's right.
[36:57.860 --> 37:05.900]  [SPEAKER_02]: So if you're out there on Long Island and, uh, you like seeing films, you like seeing films a lot, and you know someone else that likes seeing films a lot, you can go every day.
[37:06.160 --> 37:07.480]  [SPEAKER_02]: You can go more than once a day.
[37:07.580 --> 37:10.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: You can go in and go back out and come back in again.
[37:10.420 --> 37:11.340]  [SPEAKER_02]: You can do anything.
[37:11.340 --> 37:12.880]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's an unlimited admission.
[37:13.260 --> 37:13.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: Unlimited.
[37:14.440 --> 37:16.120]  [SPEAKER_02]: For an entire year.
[37:16.960 --> 37:19.720]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, uh, that's worth much more than $500.
[37:20.940 --> 37:23.160]  [SPEAKER_02]: 212-279-3400.
[37:23.240 --> 37:24.780]  [SPEAKER_02]: Show your support for the radio station.
[37:25.120 --> 37:27.580]  [SPEAKER_02]: Get your free copy of 2600 as well.
[37:27.900 --> 37:32.820]  [SPEAKER_02]: And help us remain where we are.
[37:34.320 --> 37:36.340]  [SPEAKER_02]: At 99.5 FM.
[37:36.960 --> 37:39.800]  [SPEAKER_02]: And help us remain non-commercial.
[37:40.280 --> 37:42.380]  [SPEAKER_02]: Help us remain 50,000 watts.
[37:42.400 --> 37:44.300]  [SPEAKER_02]: Help us remain on the Empire State Building.
[37:45.200 --> 37:46.860]  [SPEAKER_02]: All these things take money.
[37:50.030 --> 37:50.730]  [SPEAKER_02]: All right.
[37:51.010 --> 37:57.670]  [SPEAKER_02]: We have some readings to share with you, and, uh, we'll be going to the phones in just a moment.
[38:01.790 --> 38:05.610]  [SPEAKER_02]: A couple more things from the Risks Digest.
[38:09.070 --> 38:10.010]  [SPEAKER_02]: Found on the Internet.
[38:10.130 --> 38:11.410]  [SPEAKER_02]: Boy, that record is scratchy, isn't it?
[38:12.270 --> 38:12.390]  [SPEAKER_53]: Ooh.
[38:16.100 --> 38:19.180]  [SPEAKER_02]: Your, uh, pledge dollars helped us get a CD player.
[38:20.060 --> 38:22.840]  [SPEAKER_02]: Unfortunately, we don't have this on CD, but, uh...
[38:24.920 --> 38:27.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: Just think where we'd be if we didn't have those pledges of the past.
[38:28.160 --> 38:29.680]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, help us for the future.
[38:30.120 --> 38:31.900]  [SPEAKER_02]: 212-279-3400.
[38:48.830 --> 38:50.770]  [SPEAKER_02]: And this piece comes from...
[38:52.330 --> 38:53.710]  [SPEAKER_02]: Eindhoven in Holland.
[38:55.470 --> 39:04.510]  [SPEAKER_02]: And it concerns the whole topic of hacking, computer hacking, and the Dutch interpretation.
[39:08.110 --> 39:13.570]  [SPEAKER_02]: And the controversy that's been, uh, flying around over the, uh, ocean.
[39:15.850 --> 39:16.970]  [SPEAKER_02]: And through the networks.
[39:18.650 --> 39:19.450]  [SPEAKER_02]: As to...
[39:20.250 --> 39:25.710]  [SPEAKER_02]: How the Dutch interpretation of, uh, what is right and what is wrong is going to affect us here in the United States.
[39:25.850 --> 39:26.550]  [SPEAKER_02]: And whether...
[39:26.550 --> 39:32.630]  [SPEAKER_02]: Our interpretation is going to conflict violently with their interpretation.
[39:35.010 --> 39:38.350]  [SPEAKER_02]: This posting comes from Herman Waltring of Eindhoven.
[39:38.350 --> 39:48.310]  [SPEAKER_02]: In essence, most postings on this particular newsletter, the Risks Digest, make generalizations and comparisons which are typical of civil law.
[39:48.870 --> 39:57.170]  [SPEAKER_02]: Comparisons abound of physical trespassing or breaking and entering with unauthorized access to insufficiently secure information systems.
[39:57.170 --> 40:03.250]  [SPEAKER_02]: No passwords, no passwords, known system passwords, or simplistic passwords.
[40:03.810 --> 40:11.990]  [SPEAKER_02]: At this time, various countries, including mine, have not decided yet to what extent computer trespassing should be declared a criminal offense.
[40:11.990 --> 40:18.590]  [SPEAKER_02]: Therefore, the choice is not, in the words of, uh, this person who had written from, uh, the U.K.
[40:19.350 --> 40:21.070]  [SPEAKER_02]: The law has to take a stance.
[40:21.270 --> 40:25.130]  [SPEAKER_02]: It can protect the interests of legitimate users by making unauthorized access illegal.
[40:25.390 --> 40:27.350]  [SPEAKER_02]: Or, it can protect un...
[40:27.350 --> 40:28.130]  [SPEAKER_02]: It can protect un...
[40:28.130 --> 40:29.950]  [SPEAKER_02]: It can protect unauthorized users by making it legal.
[40:31.710 --> 40:38.110]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's not that, but to decide whether the latter should be declared a criminal offense since it is currently not.
[40:38.110 --> 40:46.810]  [SPEAKER_02]: But, while it may be unlawful under civil law, depending on the party's arguments, in front of a rather passive judge,
[40:53.910 --> 40:55.350]  [SPEAKER_02]: I like what I'm seeing.
[41:00.300 --> 41:06.760]  [SPEAKER_02]: The decision involves policy matters of a wider scope than just the alleged criminality of the behavior in question.
[41:06.760 --> 41:12.420]  [SPEAKER_02]: Is it opportune to widen the scope of so-called criminal acts?
[41:12.420 --> 41:18.660]  [SPEAKER_02]: To what extent is civil law capable of handling these problems?
[41:20.140 --> 41:26.800]  [SPEAKER_02]: Is hacking by external intruders really so serious as suggested in the press?
[41:28.580 --> 41:33.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: What about internal theft within institutions and organizations?
[41:33.940 --> 41:35.380]  [SPEAKER_02]: Is this much more serious?
[41:35.560 --> 41:42.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: Should society as a whole, because of the taxpayers' funding, of the public prosecutor's office, bear the burden?
[41:42.640 --> 41:47.540]  [SPEAKER_02]: For some private interests or public institutions who are too lazy to guard their own doorstep?
[41:48.600 --> 41:56.880]  [SPEAKER_02]: These are some of the questions posed or implied in the preliminary comments from the Standing Committee on the Judiciary and the Dutch House of Representatives.
[42:01.180 --> 42:02.540]  [SPEAKER_02]: D.D.
[42:04.140 --> 42:08.000]  [SPEAKER_02]: is certainly liable in civil law for soliciting criminal behavior.
[42:08.360 --> 42:11.160]  [SPEAKER_02]: In all likelihood, his insurance will not pay his damages.
[42:11.400 --> 42:18.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I should think that too blatantly flaunting one's richness might even be sufficiently antisocial to qualify as criminal.
[42:18.620 --> 42:21.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: The kind of behavior that causes revolutions.
[42:23.880 --> 42:27.020]  [SPEAKER_02]: The example of the lady who enters a singles bar is inappropriate.
[42:27.160 --> 42:30.220]  [SPEAKER_02]: It is a public place for which different rules exist.
[42:32.640 --> 42:37.380]  [SPEAKER_02]: Unless the behavior should be interpreted as turning vaults into such a public place.
[42:37.520 --> 42:41.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: But even in a public place, you may have to pay for services rendered or products provided.
[42:43.240 --> 42:55.900]  [SPEAKER_02]: I submit that criminal law is not the equivalent of John Wayne riding into your village and protecting your peaceful and law-abiding community from the nasty crowd that has been invading you from Mexico or Holland.
[42:57.600 --> 43:05.920]  [SPEAKER_02]: Don't cry for a strong man who will wipe out your troubles with a six-gun, but make sure that you take appropriate measures to guard your own doorstep.
[43:07.040 --> 43:12.780]  [SPEAKER_02]: However, do so with commensurate means rather than by soliciting crime through overkill.
[43:13.440 --> 43:15.540]  [SPEAKER_02]: There are too many guns on the street already.
[43:17.460 --> 43:25.120]  [SPEAKER_02]: If you succeed in convincing your legislators that computer trespassing is tantamount to hijacking a plane, fine.
[43:25.740 --> 43:38.080]  [SPEAKER_02]: But do realize the consequences when somebody, quite by mistake, lands up in the wrong account or tries to find back his own accidentally deleted data.
[43:40.640 --> 43:48.920]  [SPEAKER_02]: I believe that computer users deserve adequate protection under the law, not that unauthorized users deserve more protection than authorized users.
[43:49.440 --> 43:54.880]  [SPEAKER_02]: At present, authorization exists by default under some countries' criminal law.
[43:55.000 --> 43:59.720]  [SPEAKER_02]: The question is simply to what extent this authorization should be withdrawn.
[44:01.740 --> 44:05.100]  [SPEAKER_02]: The problem reminds me of the current struggle on software copyright.
[44:05.700 --> 44:22.740]  [SPEAKER_02]: A new right is about to be born, namely the exclusion of fair dealing under British copyright law, which has entitled you up to now to study and review a software package and object code by decompiling or disassembling it in order to find out about its functional properties.
[44:23.460 --> 44:31.900]  [SPEAKER_02]: Whether this information is to be used for publishing a critical review in a journal or for making a competing and hopefully better software package.
[44:34.780 --> 44:45.120]  [SPEAKER_02]: The European communities are in the process of accepting a directive on software protection in which such activities are declared illegal as regards the central core of a software package.
[44:45.560 --> 44:52.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: Interface aspects may be analyzed confidentially and software maintenance may be performed by or on behalf of legitimate users.
[44:53.560 --> 44:57.180]  [SPEAKER_02]: While the proposed directive claims that the central ideas, etc.
[44:57.440 --> 45:06.660]  [SPEAKER_02]: will remain free and unprotected, and quite appropriately so under the copyright doctrine, you may not obtain those ideas from the package unless you are licensed to do so.
[45:09.610 --> 45:14.870]  [SPEAKER_02]: The proposed directive curtails former fair use, fair dealing rights substantially.
[45:16.710 --> 45:27.430]  [SPEAKER_02]: For example, how could Shakespeare lawfully determine under such a system whether indeed his way of making thunder had been stolen?
[45:28.110 --> 45:38.410]  [SPEAKER_02]: In other words, can patent infringement be legitimately assessed under this new protection scheme, or do we need Anton Piller orders for that?
[45:38.570 --> 45:43.830]  [SPEAKER_02]: If so, how do we collect the evidence to convince the judge that such an order is appropriate?
[45:44.570 --> 45:55.770]  [SPEAKER_02]: I am not saying that hacking is fair, but I do claim that the criminalizing responses on this forum are incompatible with the extent of its unfairness.
[45:56.190 --> 46:02.610]  [SPEAKER_02]: Alas, there are no simple solutions, and that's why my reply has become so lengthy.
[46:03.890 --> 46:16.850]  [SPEAKER_02]: That came from Herman Waltring in Eindhoven in the Netherlands on the Risks Digest, which was distributed over the Internet.
[46:37.780 --> 46:41.400]  [SPEAKER_02]: And it's one more piece from Leonard Erickson, and we'll go to the phone calls.
[46:42.540 --> 46:47.240]  [SPEAKER_02]: I agree with Richard O'Keefe's comments in Risks, volume 11, number 58.
[46:48.180 --> 46:52.840]  [SPEAKER_02]: Several of the well-known holes are exactly equivalent to well-known holes with locks.
[46:53.240 --> 47:05.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: For example, a certain major brand of bicycle lock can be picked with a piece of bent wire in approximately five seconds, as I once demonstrated to an employer who was going to use one to secure some valuable items.
[47:06.400 --> 47:11.320]  [SPEAKER_02]: Likewise, many operating systems have equally bad shortcomings in their security if you are knowledgeable.
[47:12.380 --> 47:20.380]  [SPEAKER_02]: The user should only have limited responsibility for operating system holes, especially since, as many have noted, there may be nothing they can do about it.
[47:21.280 --> 47:27.900]  [SPEAKER_02]: If, for example, you're running a TRS-80 Model 1, you cannot fix the holes in its operating system.
[47:28.000 --> 47:30.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: It would cost more than the entire system is worth.
[47:31.320 --> 47:35.500]  [SPEAKER_02]: And if you are using such an old item, you either are broke or have a very compelling reason.
[47:36.860 --> 47:40.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: On the other hand, you had better not be counting on it being secure.
[47:40.360 --> 47:43.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: However, ignorance may be forgivable the first time.
[47:43.680 --> 47:49.780]  [SPEAKER_02]: After that, you have no excuse for continuing to keep valuables in an unsafe environment.
[47:51.900 --> 47:54.100]  [SPEAKER_02]: Default passwords and accounts are a bit different.
[47:54.340 --> 47:56.180]  [SPEAKER_02]: The user can change those.
[47:57.100 --> 48:06.580]  [SPEAKER_02]: Just as when you buy a briefcase with a combo lock, you can either change the combo from the factory default, or you can accept responsibility for any unauthorized access.
[48:09.890 --> 48:23.610]  [SPEAKER_02]: Note, however, that just because I haven't changed the combination on my briefcase, and thus have some responsibility for any resulting losses, that in no way affects the underlying fact that it is wrong to attempt to open my lock briefcase without permission.
[48:25.150 --> 48:29.690]  [SPEAKER_02]: Unauthorized use of a password is no different from unauthorized use of a combination.
[48:30.530 --> 48:34.750]  [SPEAKER_02]: The password may be stupid, but you still have no business messing with the lock.
[48:35.790 --> 48:44.290]  [SPEAKER_02]: Your curiosity regarding the contents of my briefcase, or even merely as to whether I've changed the combo, does not give you the right to try and find out.
[48:45.630 --> 48:51.110]  [SPEAKER_02]: Likewise, a cracker's curiosity doesn't give him the right to go where he isn't wanted.
[48:52.270 --> 48:53.530]  [SPEAKER_02]: What do you think?
[48:54.150 --> 48:57.070]  [SPEAKER_02]: 212-279-3407 for calls.
[48:57.670 --> 49:00.490]  [SPEAKER_02]: 212-279-3400 for pledges.
[50:09.840 --> 50:16.420]  [SPEAKER_02]: And as Vangelis fades off into the distance, again, we will be going to phone calls.
[50:17.060 --> 50:19.660]  [SPEAKER_02]: Presently, we have Steve Jackson coming up.
[50:19.840 --> 50:30.920]  [SPEAKER_02]: Steve Jackson, of course, was somebody that ran into quite a bit of problems with the whole definition of what hacking is, and what is right, and what is wrong.
[50:32.360 --> 50:35.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: Our number is 212-279-3407.
[50:37.400 --> 50:39.800]  [SPEAKER_02]: And 212-279-3400.
[50:39.980 --> 50:48.660]  [SPEAKER_02]: We'll be getting to that Steve Jackson interview in just a couple of minutes, but first, we want to know if there are any questions, comments, or that kind of thing out there.
[50:48.800 --> 50:49.920]  [SPEAKER_02]: The program is off the hook.
[50:50.120 --> 50:56.060]  [SPEAKER_02]: We're on the air until 6 o'clock in the morning as part of our special marathon programming here on WBAI.
[50:56.980 --> 50:57.620]  [SPEAKER_02]: Good evening.
[50:57.820 --> 50:58.220]  [SPEAKER_02]: You're on.
[50:58.420 --> 50:58.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: Hello.
[50:59.000 --> 51:00.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: You have reached reality.
[51:01.120 --> 51:03.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: The first voice you will hear will be that of Eric Blair.
[51:03.920 --> 51:04.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: Hello.
[51:04.460 --> 51:06.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: This is Eric Blair from Beyond the Pale.
[51:06.600 --> 51:09.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: And you are in 1984 and counting.
[51:09.980 --> 51:22.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: Big Brother is well on his way, with perhaps 90% of the public being taken in by the con of the Bush-Ragan oligarchy and the military-industrial enterprise, which will go where no men and women have ever gone before.
[51:24.320 --> 51:29.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, we are using now an Earthling to carry on the discussion.
[51:29.260 --> 51:30.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: How are you doing there?
[51:31.180 --> 51:39.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's always good to hear your program, although at times I think that you're getting to the point of suggesting that we do all kinds of nefarious things.
[51:39.260 --> 51:57.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: But my only problem is that even earlier today, had you been listening to WBAI, which is a station, the station, which I most love and listen to consistently also, although sometimes I double listen to other stations, you know, like WNYC, AM, and WABC.
[51:58.200 --> 51:59.280]  [SPEAKER_51]: Are you going to make reference to another program?
[51:59.280 --> 52:02.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: I know what's going on with the rest of the world, and there are some wonderful things happening.
[52:02.940 --> 52:03.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: He's not listening to me.
[52:03.580 --> 52:18.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, I feel that, and I think you and I and some other of the good people, I call that a Joy Walker, should have a day or a week or a month of what is freedom of speech in its truest and fullest essence.
[52:18.660 --> 52:33.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I'll leave you with this one thought, that even a person who is totally against what I say, totally on the other side of an issue, I will listen to with respect, and I will mull over what I believe.
[52:34.140 --> 52:35.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: I will look for new evidence.
[52:35.460 --> 52:37.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: I will question myself.
[52:37.800 --> 52:39.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: I will question the other person.
[52:39.920 --> 52:41.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: I will question other people.
[52:41.380 --> 52:53.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: I will do everything in my limit to respect that person and then to try to come to even a better understanding of what our knowledge is and truth and so forth, you know, because there is the Rashomon effect.
[52:54.220 --> 52:55.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: Do you have any questions?
[52:55.580 --> 52:56.620]  [SPEAKER_02]: Do I have any questions?
[52:56.740 --> 52:58.520]  [SPEAKER_02]: No, I just want to encourage you to keep doing that.
[52:58.640 --> 53:02.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, I am, and I want you to know I got a whistle that is bejeweled.
[53:03.860 --> 53:11.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: Apparently, it's the first of a kind that has been awarded to a whistleblower, but I think even there are greater whistleblowers than I.
[53:11.420 --> 53:15.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: We have to be always vigilant, as the Zen people say.
[53:15.560 --> 53:20.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, you always have to be ready for, shall we say, a blow of this sort or a blow of that sort.
[53:21.160 --> 53:29.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, nature, you know, doing its number on you, or fellow human beings doing theirs and so forth, with the government doing it and so on.
[53:30.180 --> 53:34.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: But the point is that your program does help us to keep ever vigilant.
[53:34.660 --> 53:43.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, as you showed with those different phone company attempts to reach, you know, and how some people are cooperative and some people aren't and so forth like this.
[53:43.720 --> 53:55.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: I will tell you this, though, that there are members of the staff of WBAI who are allowed to perform as members of WBAI who I don't think have earned the right on the basis of freedom of speech.
[53:55.960 --> 53:57.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, they may be able to learn.
[53:58.180 --> 54:03.760]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, what we encourage you to do, then, is, you know, show your support during another program.
[54:03.960 --> 54:04.480]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I do.
[54:04.500 --> 54:04.740]  [SPEAKER_02]: And write letters.
[54:04.820 --> 54:05.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, I have...
[54:05.440 --> 54:05.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: I give...
[54:05.880 --> 54:08.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'm an original subscriber to WBAI.
[54:08.240 --> 54:10.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, I don't sound like an old man, you know.
[54:10.260 --> 54:11.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: But I am an original subscriber.
[54:12.120 --> 54:16.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: I've subscribed for almost every one of the 31 years I stopped when...
[54:16.020 --> 54:17.820]  [SPEAKER_51]: And a very familiar voice on the airwaves.
[54:18.120 --> 54:20.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: ...problem just to show solidarity with them.
[54:20.900 --> 54:27.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, unfortunately, it proved to me to be somewhat of a turnaround thing, as some people understand.
[54:27.840 --> 54:28.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: But, anyway, carry on.
[54:28.960 --> 54:29.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: I want to hear other people.
[54:29.880 --> 54:30.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I thank you.
[54:30.520 --> 54:35.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: I hope my little creativity has some impact on the universe.
[54:35.560 --> 54:35.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: Thank you.
[54:35.960 --> 54:36.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, thanks for calling.
[54:36.960 --> 54:36.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: Bye.
[54:38.480 --> 54:40.820]  [SPEAKER_02]: 212-279-3407.
[54:41.120 --> 54:43.640]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's our telephone number for calls.
[54:43.640 --> 54:46.460]  [SPEAKER_02]: But, please, let's see those lines light up.
[54:46.520 --> 54:48.000]  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, we're jammed over here.
[54:48.000 --> 54:51.700]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, we've got the whole switchboard lit up on the call-in side.
[54:51.700 --> 54:55.660]  [SPEAKER_02]: And there's absolutely no calls coming in on the pledge side.
[54:56.520 --> 54:58.580]  [SPEAKER_02]: Please, show your support for the radio station.
[54:58.700 --> 55:01.100]  [SPEAKER_02]: Right now, you can't get through on the call-in line.
[55:01.260 --> 55:08.420]  [SPEAKER_02]: So, if you make that call, you know, if you make that pledge, then you'll be able to call in later.
[55:09.180 --> 55:09.700]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know?
[55:09.820 --> 55:13.580]  [SPEAKER_02]: But, more importantly, you'll be helping us keep up what it is that we're doing.
[55:14.320 --> 55:15.160]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's that simple.
[55:15.160 --> 55:18.460]  [SPEAKER_02]: 212-279-3400 to make a pledge.
[55:18.680 --> 55:26.760]  [SPEAKER_02]: And everybody that calls in will get a free copy along with their pledge of 2600 The Hacker Quarterly where you can learn all kinds of things that you never knew were possible.
[55:27.420 --> 55:28.860]  [SPEAKER_02]: And that's no joke.
[55:29.220 --> 55:29.780]  [SPEAKER_02]: Good evening.
[55:31.280 --> 55:31.720]  [SPEAKER_20]: Yes.
[55:31.960 --> 55:32.760]  [SPEAKER_20]: Am I on the air?
[55:32.900 --> 55:33.400]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, you are.
[55:33.960 --> 55:36.320]  [SPEAKER_20]: What are your connections to Sprint and MCI?
[55:36.440 --> 55:37.440]  [SPEAKER_20]: What are you making out of this?
[55:37.460 --> 55:38.060]  [SPEAKER_20]: How much money?
[55:38.520 --> 55:40.320]  [SPEAKER_02]: How much money am I making out of this?
[55:40.360 --> 55:43.120]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I'm sure it was destiny that somebody eventually asked this.
[55:43.120 --> 55:48.020]  [SPEAKER_02]: I called just as an annoyed consumer because, you know, I'll tell you something.
[55:48.120 --> 55:50.160]  [SPEAKER_02]: There was not a single edit in that whole piece.
[55:50.160 --> 55:52.800]  [SPEAKER_02]: But I knew they were going to do exactly that.
[55:53.160 --> 56:01.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: And if you call them now, I invite you to call MCI, call Sprint, and then call AT&T and see who will tell you how to access that company.
[56:01.460 --> 56:03.540]  [SPEAKER_20]: But that is not a judge of a company.
[56:03.800 --> 56:05.200]  [SPEAKER_53]: Well, it's a judge of their policies.
[56:05.360 --> 56:06.900]  [SPEAKER_20]: It's not a judge of their service.
[56:06.920 --> 56:09.340]  [SPEAKER_20]: And you made it clear that you said my case rests.
[56:09.340 --> 56:11.460]  [SPEAKER_20]: But that's not a judge of the company.
[56:12.140 --> 56:14.720]  [SPEAKER_20]: AT&T is a much better company than Sprint and MCI.
[56:15.100 --> 56:20.540]  [SPEAKER_20]: Sprint and MCI have claimed to have tremendous savings when you call them, when you use their services.
[56:20.560 --> 56:22.060]  [SPEAKER_20]: But you don't get tremendous services.
[56:22.060 --> 56:23.980]  [SPEAKER_20]: Maybe you may save a couple of pennies now.
[56:24.280 --> 56:29.700]  [SPEAKER_20]: But their whole advertisements have been, when they first came out, that they're making, you make tremendous savings.
[56:29.820 --> 56:30.960]  [SPEAKER_20]: You don't make tremendous savings.
[56:31.080 --> 56:32.480]  [SPEAKER_20]: They have been phony to us.
[56:32.740 --> 56:34.120]  [SPEAKER_02]: And AT&T has not?
[56:34.120 --> 56:38.220]  [SPEAKER_20]: No, because whatever charges they have claimed are the charges you get.
[56:38.680 --> 56:41.420]  [SPEAKER_20]: But Sprint and MCI says you have great, great savings.
[56:41.600 --> 56:43.140]  [SPEAKER_20]: And you don't have great savings.
[56:43.220 --> 56:46.800]  [SPEAKER_20]: You may have a couple of pennies or maybe 20 cents or 10 cents.
[56:46.920 --> 56:47.620]  And that's it.
[56:47.800 --> 56:50.700]  [SPEAKER_02]: This sounds word for word like a commercial I just saw on TV.
[56:51.300 --> 56:55.640]  [SPEAKER_02]: But the thing is, I'm not saying who has the lowest prices.
[56:55.780 --> 56:57.920]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm talking about one particular aspect of service.
[56:58.040 --> 56:59.580]  [SPEAKER_02]: And that's how you deal with the competition.
[56:59.680 --> 57:01.320]  [SPEAKER_20]: You said which company was best.
[57:01.320 --> 57:05.380]  [SPEAKER_20]: That AT&T is not good compared to Sprint and MCI.
[57:05.480 --> 57:08.560]  [SPEAKER_20]: And you base it only on if they will give you access numbers.
[57:08.740 --> 57:11.060]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think that's a very good way to judge a company.
[57:11.240 --> 57:12.240]  [SPEAKER_02]: Which company is best?
[57:12.460 --> 57:15.120]  [SPEAKER_02]: First of all, I did not say MCI or Sprint is best.
[57:15.160 --> 57:17.780]  [SPEAKER_02]: I said, judge it by what you have heard.
[57:17.940 --> 57:26.600]  [SPEAKER_02]: And we heard a company deliberately not tell you a bit of information because that is their corporate policy not to tell you about the other alternative.
[57:26.820 --> 57:29.520]  [SPEAKER_20]: You don't give phone numbers for your competition either.
[57:29.520 --> 57:32.520]  [SPEAKER_20]: The point is you don't have to give competition there.
[57:32.760 --> 57:40.240]  [SPEAKER_20]: If you want to have Sprint and MCI, there's plenty of ways of getting hold of Sprint and MCI because they have advertisements and they have advertisements on TV.
[57:40.520 --> 57:42.700]  [SPEAKER_20]: You want to call Sprint and MCI, you can call them.
[57:42.900 --> 57:46.720]  [SPEAKER_20]: You don't have to give the phone number to the competition.
[57:47.220 --> 57:50.600]  [SPEAKER_20]: There's no law saying that and there's nothing wrong with denying it.
[57:50.700 --> 57:58.060]  [SPEAKER_02]: But when you see the company that is number one by far refusing to give any information about the competition and the competition
[58:04.160 --> 58:10.580]  [SPEAKER_20]: There's nothing phony about not giving access to the other phone company.
[58:10.640 --> 58:12.100]  [SPEAKER_20]: There's plenty of other ways of getting it.
[58:12.240 --> 58:13.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not accusing them of phoniness.
[58:13.480 --> 58:18.460]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm accusing them of just not giving information out, which they really, in my view, should give out.
[58:18.520 --> 58:19.660]  [SPEAKER_02]: There's a lot of confused people out there.
[58:19.660 --> 58:20.860]  [SPEAKER_20]: It has nothing to do with integrity.
[58:21.560 --> 58:22.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: I disagree.
[58:23.520 --> 58:24.680]  [SPEAKER_20]: It has nothing to do with that.
[58:24.920 --> 58:27.440]  [SPEAKER_20]: You're totally misleading us, or you're attempting to.
[58:28.060 --> 58:30.820]  [SPEAKER_20]: There's no connection between that and an integrity.
[58:31.940 --> 58:33.020]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I disagree.
[58:33.040 --> 58:37.800]  [SPEAKER_02]: I believe the integrity of AT&T has been besmirched by this little demonstration.
[58:38.040 --> 58:39.840]  [SPEAKER_02]: But I'd like to hear what other people have to say.
[58:39.960 --> 58:40.500]  [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks for calling.
[58:40.760 --> 58:41.100]  [SPEAKER_02]: Take care.
[58:41.980 --> 58:44.800]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'll bet I know what his long-distance carrier is.
[58:46.100 --> 58:46.860]  [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, boy.
[58:47.100 --> 58:49.860]  [SPEAKER_02]: 212-279-3407 for phone calls.
[58:50.100 --> 58:53.740]  [SPEAKER_02]: 212-279-3400 for pledges.
[58:53.980 --> 58:55.100]  [SPEAKER_02]: Please make those pledges.
[58:56.020 --> 58:56.860]  [SPEAKER_02]: Good morning.
[58:57.540 --> 58:59.020]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, I wanted to ask you.
[58:59.100 --> 59:01.560]  [SPEAKER_11]: You seem to know a lot about the telephone company, right?
[59:01.840 --> 59:04.720]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, the telephone companies, yeah, there's many of them now.
[59:05.020 --> 59:06.900]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay, this is rather technical.
[59:06.900 --> 59:09.500]  [SPEAKER_11]: I have many questions, and I'll hang up and let you go.
[59:09.860 --> 59:23.160]  [SPEAKER_11]: One is, are you aware, and I can't give it out over the air, are you aware that there's a certain code that you can punch where, let's say, if you're in someone's house, and you want to get that person's number, because I used to tell people, I think,
[59:23.360 --> 59:33.920]  [SPEAKER_11]: years ago, that you don't ever put your, you know, home phone number in the glass window or the window that's on your phone, you know, the one that...
[59:33.920 --> 59:34.040]  [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[59:34.460 --> 59:36.820]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's fairly well known.
[59:36.900 --> 59:37.760]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, you're in New York State?
[59:38.540 --> 59:38.900]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[59:38.900 --> 59:40.580]  [SPEAKER_02]: Then the number is 958, right?
[59:41.940 --> 59:43.000]  [SPEAKER_02]: Is that what you're referring to?
[59:43.880 --> 59:44.280]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[59:44.660 --> 59:49.800]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, well, that's known as ANAC, the automatic number something.
[59:50.180 --> 59:51.740]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's an automatic number announcement.
[59:51.900 --> 59:53.020]  [SPEAKER_02]: I think that's what it stands for.
[59:53.180 --> 59:57.260]  [SPEAKER_02]: And that tells you, from your local central office, what your telephone number is.
[59:57.520 --> 59:59.420]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's a useful service to have.
[59:59.420 --> 01:00:02.460]  [SPEAKER_02]: When you call the operator, she won't tell you what your phone number is for some reason.
[01:00:03.800 --> 01:00:11.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: But I guess it could be used to, against somebody, if you access a certain phone number somehow, and it doesn't belong to you.
[01:00:12.240 --> 01:00:13.100]  [SPEAKER_11]: Right, right, right.
[01:00:13.280 --> 01:00:16.560]  [SPEAKER_02]: But it's also important that people know that they can get their phone number by doing that.
[01:00:16.640 --> 01:00:25.420]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, if you're hooking up phone wires, you know, by your living room or something, and you're trying to figure out which line is coming up, how else are you going to know which line is which?
[01:00:25.960 --> 01:00:27.100]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, yeah.
[01:00:27.320 --> 01:00:27.600]  [SPEAKER_11]: Oh, yeah.
[01:00:27.680 --> 01:00:33.320]  [SPEAKER_11]: No, I'm saying, like, if you're in someone's house and they don't know your home phone number, or I could say, sir, do you mind if I borrow your phone?
[01:00:34.100 --> 01:00:36.460]  [SPEAKER_11]: And I'll say, I'm calling somebody, I give the guy a quarter.
[01:00:36.700 --> 01:00:39.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: But, sir, you know, there's a much easier way to get the same information.
[01:00:39.420 --> 01:00:45.380]  [SPEAKER_02]: You simply call yourself collect from that phone, and then when the phone bill comes, you've got their phone number on your phone bill.
[01:00:45.980 --> 01:00:47.100]  [SPEAKER_11]: All right, let me get that straight.
[01:00:47.220 --> 01:00:48.820]  [SPEAKER_11]: You call yourself collect...
[01:00:48.820 --> 01:00:50.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: Let's say you're at a friend's house, right?
[01:00:50.200 --> 01:00:54.900]  [SPEAKER_02]: He refuses to tell you what the phone number is, and 958 does not work from his house.
[01:00:55.040 --> 01:00:57.120]  [SPEAKER_02]: You simply say, okay, can I make a collect call?
[01:00:57.120 --> 01:01:02.780]  [SPEAKER_02]: And you have your wife or whatever at home, and she picks up the phone and accepts your collect call from the friend's house.
[01:01:02.800 --> 01:01:08.100]  [SPEAKER_02]: When you get your phone bill, the number that the collect call came from is going to be on the phone bill.
[01:01:08.560 --> 01:01:08.740]  [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[01:01:08.920 --> 01:01:14.820]  [SPEAKER_02]: Or, a better idea, get one of those personal 800 numbers that only cost about $10 or $20 a month.
[01:01:14.940 --> 01:01:19.020]  [SPEAKER_02]: And when you get your phone bill on that, you just call the 800 number from your friend's house.
[01:01:19.100 --> 01:01:22.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: When you get your 800 phone bill, you'll see the phone number you called from.
[01:01:22.320 --> 01:01:23.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: So there's lots of ways to find out the number.
[01:01:24.160 --> 01:01:25.180]  [SPEAKER_11]: Right, okay, you're right.
[01:01:25.180 --> 01:01:26.280]  [SPEAKER_11]: Now, here's another question.
[01:01:26.760 --> 01:01:27.980]  [SPEAKER_11]: I have heard this.
[01:01:28.060 --> 01:01:30.100]  [SPEAKER_11]: This is something similar, but a little different.
[01:01:30.260 --> 01:01:30.420]  [SPEAKER_51]: Okay.
[01:01:30.700 --> 01:01:31.560]  [SPEAKER_11]: Two questions.
[01:01:32.140 --> 01:01:46.200]  [SPEAKER_11]: One is that if somebody has a Mac-and-Charge computer, or a fairly good computer has at least one megabyte or more, is there some type of way they can tap into the telephone company, into 9x, to get unlisted numbers under somebody?
[01:01:46.480 --> 01:01:47.260]  [SPEAKER_11]: That's one.
[01:01:47.480 --> 01:01:56.400]  [SPEAKER_11]: And two, is there also some type of code or book given out to investigators, or whatever, for unlisted numbers?
[01:01:57.140 --> 01:01:58.500]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I'm not sure I understand.
[01:01:58.720 --> 01:02:00.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: The first question is what again?
[01:02:00.200 --> 01:02:00.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[01:02:00.280 --> 01:02:09.040]  [SPEAKER_11]: The first question is, let's say you're a person who has a Mac-and-Charge computer, or an 8 megabyte, or 6 megabyte, or 4 megabyte computer, with a phone modem.
[01:02:09.640 --> 01:02:15.200]  [SPEAKER_11]: And I heard that there is some way, but you really have to be pretty good at it, and it's not easy to do.
[01:02:15.620 --> 01:02:22.580]  [SPEAKER_11]: You tap into the telephone company, and you can get actually unlisted telephone numbers, telephone numbers that aren't listed.
[01:02:23.160 --> 01:02:23.560]  [SPEAKER_53]: Well...
[01:02:23.560 --> 01:02:24.200]  [SPEAKER_11]: And addresses.
[01:02:24.580 --> 01:02:27.840]  [SPEAKER_11]: It will be addresses because the address is a link to the number and a service address.
[01:02:28.000 --> 01:02:28.780]  [SPEAKER_11]: That's why you get the address.
[01:02:28.980 --> 01:02:32.880]  [SPEAKER_02]: First of all, you don't need to have a Macintosh or any particular kind of computer.
[01:02:32.880 --> 01:02:39.400]  [SPEAKER_02]: You simply need to have access to a modem, to a terminal, to something that can get you access to another computer.
[01:02:39.540 --> 01:02:42.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: And yes, if you can tap into a particular phone company computer...
[01:02:42.980 --> 01:02:43.180]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm sorry?
[01:02:43.380 --> 01:02:45.040]  [SPEAKER_11]: There's certain security codes, right?
[01:02:45.040 --> 01:02:55.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah, but if they're left in the default settings, or if you're able to social engineer it out of somebody, that means calling somebody and getting them to give you the password.
[01:02:55.200 --> 01:02:56.060]  [SPEAKER_02]: It happens all the time.
[01:02:56.200 --> 01:03:02.400]  [SPEAKER_02]: You can access a particular kind of computer, and there's many different kinds throughout the different phone companies of the world.
[01:03:02.540 --> 01:03:03.760]  [SPEAKER_02]: Let's say a New York telephone.
[01:03:04.300 --> 01:03:07.780]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, you would access a particular computer there.
[01:03:07.780 --> 01:03:11.620]  [SPEAKER_02]: I believe the Elmo system would probably tell you everything you needed to know.
[01:03:12.880 --> 01:03:16.000]  [SPEAKER_11]: You could do it by name or number, or just by name.
[01:03:16.080 --> 01:03:20.960]  [SPEAKER_11]: Let's say you don't know number, you don't know address, so you have to go by name or address or something.
[01:03:21.040 --> 01:03:23.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I haven't actually ever done this.
[01:03:23.420 --> 01:03:23.880]  [SPEAKER_11]: Oh, I know that.
[01:03:23.960 --> 01:03:24.500]  [SPEAKER_11]: No, I know that.
[01:03:24.540 --> 01:03:26.720]  [SPEAKER_02]: No, I mean, I really haven't actually done this.
[01:03:26.860 --> 01:03:41.420]  [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm not certain that it's the particular system or what the particular command would be, but it's my understanding that if you have particular bits of information, such as the customer's name or the customer's address, it's not hard at all to find unlisted phone numbers.
[01:03:41.420 --> 01:03:53.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: I know several occasions where someone was being harassed, and they would change their phone number, and the people harassing them would be able to call them before the phone company called them and tell them what their new number was going to be.
[01:03:53.320 --> 01:03:53.940]  [SPEAKER_11]: Oh, yeah, yeah.
[01:03:54.040 --> 01:03:55.660]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, I'm not talking about myself.
[01:03:56.040 --> 01:03:58.100]  [SPEAKER_11]: I don't do stuff like that.
[01:03:58.180 --> 01:04:01.880]  [SPEAKER_11]: I'm talking about more for, like, police work or other types of work.
[01:04:02.020 --> 01:04:04.100]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, the police can always find you.
[01:04:04.800 --> 01:04:05.660]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's rule number one.
[01:04:05.760 --> 01:04:08.760]  [SPEAKER_02]: And a private detective, if he's any good, can also always find you.
[01:04:09.220 --> 01:04:09.840]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, yeah.
[01:04:10.000 --> 01:04:15.680]  [SPEAKER_11]: Unless, of course, you don't have a telephone or don't have things that they could have access to, like telephone.
[01:04:15.820 --> 01:04:20.640]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, that makes it a whole lot harder, but these days, they make it almost impossible for you to live without those things.
[01:04:21.100 --> 01:04:21.800]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, that's true.
[01:04:22.240 --> 01:04:23.840]  [SPEAKER_11]: All right, one other thing I'll let you go.
[01:04:24.320 --> 01:04:25.920]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay, I mentioned a computer, right.
[01:04:26.360 --> 01:04:34.240]  [SPEAKER_11]: Is there also some type of, like the 958, is there some type of thing where you could dial someone's number and punch in a code and get a number?
[01:04:34.240 --> 01:04:35.280]  [SPEAKER_11]: Sure, that's number one.
[01:04:35.440 --> 01:04:44.780]  [SPEAKER_11]: And number two is, is there some type of book listed either by name or number or address that has unlisted numbers that the NYNEX or New York Telephone makes?
[01:04:45.060 --> 01:04:47.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, okay, the second question first.
[01:04:48.380 --> 01:04:48.540]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[01:04:48.680 --> 01:04:55.120]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, when you call information and they say a number is unlisted, they cannot see that number.
[01:04:55.200 --> 01:04:59.020]  [SPEAKER_02]: The number is there, but it's prevented from being seen on the computer screen.
[01:04:59.020 --> 01:05:00.560]  [SPEAKER_11]: Right, it's lit up in white.
[01:05:01.060 --> 01:05:03.880]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's like the area where the number is supposed to be.
[01:05:04.200 --> 01:05:09.060]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's like on a computer when a computer flashes a particular word, except you can't see the word.
[01:05:09.380 --> 01:05:11.480]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's like a bar or something, a white bar.
[01:05:11.740 --> 01:05:18.720]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not sure exactly what it looks like, but the address does show up there, but the operator does not even see the number.
[01:05:18.860 --> 01:05:19.760]  [SPEAKER_02]: But the number is there.
[01:05:19.760 --> 01:05:21.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's just not being seen.
[01:05:21.140 --> 01:05:26.060]  [SPEAKER_02]: The phone company obviously has all this information because how else would they bill people with unlisted phone numbers?
[01:05:26.160 --> 01:05:26.920]  [SPEAKER_02]: So, yes, it exists.
[01:05:26.920 --> 01:05:27.480]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's there.
[01:05:28.060 --> 01:05:30.540]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's just blocked out from certain people.
[01:05:30.600 --> 01:05:35.720]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, I wasn't quite sure I understood the first question where you said, get somebody's phone number by dialing something.
[01:05:35.820 --> 01:05:36.040]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, yeah.
[01:05:36.160 --> 01:05:39.320]  [SPEAKER_11]: No, I was saying, okay, let's say somebody dials my house.
[01:05:39.480 --> 01:05:39.880]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh-huh.
[01:05:40.500 --> 01:05:45.980]  [SPEAKER_11]: Um, or they don't, or some way, all right, let's say they dial my house.
[01:05:46.600 --> 01:05:50.000]  [SPEAKER_11]: Um, is there some, like, similar to the 958?
[01:05:50.120 --> 01:05:52.620]  [SPEAKER_11]: Is there some type of service where, uh...
[01:05:52.620 --> 01:05:53.820]  [SPEAKER_02]: Are you talking about caller ID?
[01:05:54.360 --> 01:05:55.440]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, no, not caller ID.
[01:05:55.580 --> 01:05:55.960]  [SPEAKER_11]: I know that.
[01:05:55.960 --> 01:05:56.840]  [SPEAKER_11]: That's on the receiver.
[01:05:57.420 --> 01:05:58.480]  [SPEAKER_11]: No, there's a person.
[01:05:59.220 --> 01:06:00.800]  [SPEAKER_11]: I would be the one that'd have that.
[01:06:01.020 --> 01:06:01.280]  [SPEAKER_51]: Okay.
[01:06:01.480 --> 01:06:08.360]  [SPEAKER_11]: But the person calling me, uh, can they punch in some type of code either after I pick up the phone or before or whatever?
[01:06:08.360 --> 01:06:09.100]  [SPEAKER_11]: I don't understand.
[01:06:09.100 --> 01:06:09.760]  [SPEAKER_02]: They're calling you.
[01:06:09.820 --> 01:06:11.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: They already know what number they're calling, right?
[01:06:11.640 --> 01:06:11.880]  [SPEAKER_11]: What?
[01:06:12.180 --> 01:06:14.080]  [SPEAKER_02]: If they're calling you, they already know your number.
[01:06:14.700 --> 01:06:15.760]  [SPEAKER_02]: Why would they want to punch in...
[01:06:15.760 --> 01:06:16.260]  [SPEAKER_11]: Oh, I'm sorry.
[01:06:16.340 --> 01:06:16.800]  [SPEAKER_11]: Other information.
[01:06:17.020 --> 01:06:17.660]  [SPEAKER_11]: Oh, right, right.
[01:06:17.760 --> 01:06:18.080]  [SPEAKER_11]: I'm sorry.
[01:06:18.180 --> 01:06:19.100]  [SPEAKER_11]: Now I'm getting mixed up.
[01:06:19.240 --> 01:06:19.420]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[01:06:19.560 --> 01:06:20.760]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's not hard to do, I know.
[01:06:21.140 --> 01:06:21.520]  [SPEAKER_11]: Right.
[01:06:22.040 --> 01:06:22.740]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, I'm sorry.
[01:06:22.920 --> 01:06:25.780]  [SPEAKER_11]: But there's no printed book, like a listed book.
[01:06:25.920 --> 01:06:27.180]  [SPEAKER_11]: Is there an unlisted book?
[01:06:27.580 --> 01:06:39.040]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, uh, there is no book that is published and made available, but I'm sure that there are printouts that come out of the phone company that have all kinds of private information that probably just get chucked into the, uh, trash can.
[01:06:39.600 --> 01:06:42.480]  [SPEAKER_02]: So, I mean, there are printouts, but I don't think there are books.
[01:06:43.460 --> 01:06:43.820]  [SPEAKER_11]: Right.
[01:06:43.820 --> 01:06:45.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, well, I think you give enough.
[01:06:45.440 --> 01:06:45.720]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay.
[01:06:45.980 --> 01:06:46.820]  [SPEAKER_11]: Thanks very much for calling.
[01:06:47.000 --> 01:06:47.360]  [SPEAKER_11]: Oh, yeah.
[01:06:47.500 --> 01:06:48.400]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's been very interesting.
[01:06:48.660 --> 01:06:51.780]  [SPEAKER_11]: And, uh, I hope you do get enough pledges for this show.
[01:06:52.120 --> 01:06:53.580]  [SPEAKER_11]: By the way, what's your amount, by the way?
[01:06:53.680 --> 01:06:54.900]  [SPEAKER_11]: Did you... did your...
[01:06:54.900 --> 01:07:04.340]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's embarrassingly low, and I don't think I even want to say it on the air, but please, people, please call up and make it higher, because, uh, if we don't do good here tonight...
[01:07:04.340 --> 01:07:06.740]  [SPEAKER_11]: Did you get at least $100,000 in the past couple of weeks?
[01:07:06.940 --> 01:07:14.000]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, you know, I don't know what the total is for the last couple of weeks, but I do know that the total for this show, it's staring me in the face, and it's, uh, it's making me feel miserable.
[01:07:14.180 --> 01:07:20.300]  [SPEAKER_02]: So, at least, uh, if we can get that number to go up a little bit more, I won't feel so, uh, so bad when I slink out of here tonight.
[01:07:20.680 --> 01:07:23.540]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, you know, I hope maybe somebody will call up, even if they pledge $5 or $10.
[01:07:24.000 --> 01:07:24.460]  [SPEAKER_11]: Every bit.
[01:07:24.460 --> 01:07:26.600]  [SPEAKER_11]: $5 here, $10 there, it adds up.
[01:07:26.740 --> 01:07:27.540]  [SPEAKER_02]: It sure does.
[01:07:27.840 --> 01:07:27.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[01:07:28.140 --> 01:07:29.020]  [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks very much for calling.
[01:07:29.200 --> 01:07:29.840]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay, I'll be decent.
[01:07:30.180 --> 01:07:30.540]  [SPEAKER_02]: All right.
[01:07:30.540 --> 01:07:40.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: We have, uh, lots of people out there, you know, in Queens, Brooklyn, the Bronx, uh, Nassau, Suffolk, and one person has called in on the pledge line.
[01:07:40.540 --> 01:07:42.600]  [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you very much, whoever you may be.
[01:07:43.200 --> 01:07:45.720]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, uh, sure, it'd be nice if people entirely remain to the phone.
[01:07:45.820 --> 01:07:46.260]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, great.
[01:07:46.860 --> 01:07:50.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, there are other lines, you know, that they're starting to fall asleep in there.
[01:07:50.680 --> 01:07:56.180]  [SPEAKER_02]: Um, give us a call, 212-279-3400, and, uh, show your support for WBAI.
[01:07:56.180 --> 01:07:59.260]  [SPEAKER_02]: Help keep us going, because that's what we want to do.
[01:07:59.320 --> 01:08:02.520]  [SPEAKER_02]: We want to be able to bring you, uh, information.
[01:08:02.880 --> 01:08:04.220]  [SPEAKER_02]: We want to be able to bring you interviews.
[01:08:04.340 --> 01:08:07.340]  [SPEAKER_02]: We're going to have the Steve Jackson interview coming up in, uh, just a couple of minutes.
[01:08:08.240 --> 01:08:10.060]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, uh, all kinds of other bits of information.
[01:08:10.140 --> 01:08:12.300]  [SPEAKER_02]: For instance, we were talking about ANAC numbers.
[01:08:12.740 --> 01:08:15.080]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, 958 is the one that works for most of the area.
[01:08:15.500 --> 01:08:19.640]  [SPEAKER_02]: If you're in Westchester, though, try 990, and that will probably give you your phone number.
[01:08:19.680 --> 01:08:26.000]  [SPEAKER_02]: And there are other ones that work in different places, different areas, uh, that give you that bit of information.
[01:08:26.180 --> 01:08:27.240]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's not made public.
[01:08:27.740 --> 01:08:33.080]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, you have to learn that by, uh, either hearing it here, or hearing it from other people as well.
[01:08:33.740 --> 01:08:38.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: Another thing, maybe this will be, uh, a bit of fun for us to try, uh, throughout the night.
[01:08:38.620 --> 01:08:39.900]  [SPEAKER_02]: Social security numbers.
[01:08:40.400 --> 01:08:44.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, uh, the previous caller was talking about, uh, finding people.
[01:08:44.460 --> 01:08:49.540]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, it's incredibly easy to find people now that we all have these little numerical names.
[01:08:49.800 --> 01:08:50.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay?
[01:08:50.240 --> 01:08:53.680]  [SPEAKER_02]: And our social security numbers are our numerical names.
[01:08:53.960 --> 01:08:55.000]  [SPEAKER_02]: We can't get rid of them.
[01:08:55.000 --> 01:08:58.100]  [SPEAKER_02]: Um, they follow us around from birth to death.
[01:08:58.760 --> 01:08:59.380]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know?
[01:08:59.880 --> 01:09:06.400]  [SPEAKER_02]: And there's something that, uh, kind of sad in that, because according to the law, those things are just for social security.
[01:09:06.880 --> 01:09:09.700]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yet they, uh, they're part of our every lives.
[01:09:10.220 --> 01:09:16.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: The next few people that call in, you want to give me the first three digits of your social security number.
[01:09:16.460 --> 01:09:17.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: No harm there.
[01:09:17.500 --> 01:09:20.160]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I can't find out who you are by, uh, those first three digits.
[01:09:20.160 --> 01:09:22.180]  [SPEAKER_02]: But, I can tell you where you were born.
[01:09:22.900 --> 01:09:23.480]  [SPEAKER_02]: How's that?
[01:09:24.580 --> 01:09:25.680]  [SPEAKER_02]: The challenge accepted?
[01:09:25.860 --> 01:09:28.080]  [SPEAKER_02]: Tell me what the first three digits of your social security number are.
[01:09:28.840 --> 01:09:31.660]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, uh, you know, I'm not sure if this will actually work.
[01:09:31.760 --> 01:09:33.340]  [SPEAKER_02]: This might not work completely.
[01:09:33.560 --> 01:09:35.120]  [SPEAKER_02]: But, it probably will.
[01:09:35.800 --> 01:09:37.700]  [SPEAKER_02]: So, uh, give us a call.
[01:09:37.700 --> 01:09:40.700]  [SPEAKER_02]: Call 212-279-3407 for on-air calls.
[01:09:41.200 --> 01:09:46.060]  [SPEAKER_02]: 212-279-3400 to make a pledge.
[01:09:46.780 --> 01:09:47.580]  [SPEAKER_02]: Good morning.
[01:09:48.140 --> 01:09:48.420]  [SPEAKER_19]: Hi.
[01:09:48.660 --> 01:09:50.180]  [SPEAKER_19]: Uh, let me turn my radio off.
[01:09:50.340 --> 01:09:50.600]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[01:09:50.960 --> 01:09:51.340]  [SPEAKER_19]: Okay.
[01:09:51.800 --> 01:10:05.340]  [SPEAKER_19]: Um, first, uh, the argument that AT&T is not obligated to divulge the, uh, phone numbers of its competitors is absurd, uh, if you consider that it's AT&T's business to provide, uh, phone numbers to the public.
[01:10:05.560 --> 01:10:06.600]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's, uh, a good point.
[01:10:06.600 --> 01:10:07.140]  [SPEAKER_19]: Yeah.
[01:10:08.040 --> 01:10:15.580]  [SPEAKER_19]: And, uh, so I, I see, I think there's no, uh, earthly reason to feel sorry for, uh, AT&T on that one.
[01:10:16.060 --> 01:10:18.640]  [SPEAKER_19]: Or to complain, uh, unfair competition.
[01:10:19.280 --> 01:10:32.940]  [SPEAKER_19]: Uh, uh, also, uh, I've worked, uh, at, uh, well with people at NYNEX and, uh, they freely acknowledge that, uh, uh, AT&T is, uh, to all intents and purposes a monopoly.
[01:10:33.240 --> 01:10:36.220]  [SPEAKER_19]: So, uh, I think you're, I think you're right.
[01:10:36.600 --> 01:10:46.700]  [SPEAKER_19]: Uh, uh, as far as, uh, card systems, though, and, uh, breaking, uh, uh, well, uh, encouraging, uh, duplication of cards.
[01:10:46.700 --> 01:10:55.920]  [SPEAKER_19]: As, uh, it so happens, um, I, uh, uh, work in, uh, I've written a smart card operating system, uh, uh, uh, for point of sale.
[01:10:56.260 --> 01:11:07.420]  [SPEAKER_19]: And, uh, that's a concern of mine, uh, that there are hackers going around, uh, or who would potentially want to destroy the, uh, the contents of the cards or at least, uh, hack them.
[01:11:08.200 --> 01:11:20.120]  [SPEAKER_19]: And, uh, considering that one of the capabilities of these cards would be to provide, uh, third-party check cashing, uh, circumventing banks, uh, that's, uh, that's a bit of a concern.
[01:11:20.380 --> 01:11:21.640]  [SPEAKER_19]: I've got to work on it.
[01:11:22.080 --> 01:11:32.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, well, no, I should, I should point out, though, that, uh, the hackers of the world, uh, the vast majority of the hackers are not interested in destroying anything.
[01:11:32.400 --> 01:11:37.720]  [SPEAKER_02]: They're simply interested in, in figuring out how to circumvent, uh, whatever system is in place.
[01:11:37.960 --> 01:11:44.380]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, if somebody were to, uh, use that knowledge to, uh, to do something nasty, of course, that would be a criminal act.
[01:11:44.480 --> 01:11:46.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: But I don't think, uh, that equates with hacking.
[01:11:47.660 --> 01:11:48.180]  [SPEAKER_19]: Uh-huh.
[01:11:48.420 --> 01:11:53.860]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I, I think hacking is sort of a, uh, a natural human tendency to want to figure out a way.
[01:11:53.860 --> 01:12:07.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I, you know, I see it in people that, uh, that know nothing about computers, yet they, they, they kind of cheer when they hear about, uh, uh, about what a hacker is able to do, because the hacker is figuring out a way around, you know, the big, uh,
[01:12:07.840 --> 01:12:10.000]  [SPEAKER_02]: the big guys, you know, AT&T and whatever.
[01:12:10.980 --> 01:12:11.220]  [SPEAKER_19]: Uh-huh.
[01:12:11.460 --> 01:12:18.780]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, it, it turns out, though, that it's, uh, surprise, it is surprisingly easy to, uh, break into the credit networks and so on.
[01:12:18.960 --> 01:12:19.340]  [SPEAKER_19]: I'm just...
[01:12:19.340 --> 01:12:25.580]  [SPEAKER_02]: Right, and that's something that, that should be upsetting everybody, because it's information about you that's, that's practically lying out there in the street.
[01:12:25.820 --> 01:12:30.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that company should have some, uh, obligation to protect that data.
[01:12:30.660 --> 01:12:31.120]  [SPEAKER_19]: Okay.
[01:12:31.420 --> 01:12:39.740]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, okay, well, and that, uh, if you pursue it that way, then, uh, for the record, the credit networks are totally unprotected.
[01:12:40.620 --> 01:12:41.180]  [SPEAKER_51]: Right.
[01:12:41.180 --> 01:12:46.780]  [SPEAKER_19]: Uh, uh, uh, after speaking against hackers to someone, now I'm turning you the other cheek, okay?
[01:12:47.180 --> 01:12:49.640]  [SPEAKER_19]: Uh, they're, they're virtually totally unprotected.
[01:12:50.220 --> 01:12:53.080]  [SPEAKER_19]: Uh, I, I know you gave out, uh, they're an ASCII.
[01:12:53.280 --> 01:13:02.420]  [SPEAKER_19]: The, part of the problem is that, uh, they're an association of banks, of thousands of banks, and it's almost impossible to get them to agree on anything.
[01:13:03.120 --> 01:13:09.420]  [SPEAKER_19]: And, uh, so you have a situation where, uh, all this data is being transmitted over phone lines in ASCII.
[01:13:09.760 --> 01:13:13.160]  [SPEAKER_19]: Uh, is it, uh, is it generally known?
[01:13:13.260 --> 01:13:16.600]  [SPEAKER_19]: I think it is that the interbank settlement networks are also unprotected.
[01:13:17.820 --> 01:13:21.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, uh, I can't say for sure.
[01:13:21.860 --> 01:13:22.340]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[01:13:22.880 --> 01:13:26.840]  [SPEAKER_02]: I would, I would hasten to guess that, uh, the protection is not what it could be.
[01:13:28.100 --> 01:13:28.580]  [SPEAKER_19]: Okay.
[01:13:29.760 --> 01:13:30.940]  [SPEAKER_19]: Uh, okay.
[01:13:31.300 --> 01:13:32.840]  [SPEAKER_19]: Then I think you've heard what I've heard.
[01:13:33.400 --> 01:13:35.560]  [SPEAKER_19]: Uh, let's see.
[01:13:35.560 --> 01:13:42.920]  [SPEAKER_19]: You also mentioned, uh, a couple weeks back about, uh, the mod 10 checksum on, uh, credit cards.
[01:13:43.180 --> 01:13:43.460]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[01:13:43.580 --> 01:13:45.300]  [SPEAKER_02]: In fact, I'd like to get into that a little bit later, too.
[01:13:45.480 --> 01:13:46.180]  [SPEAKER_02]: The, uh...
[01:13:46.180 --> 01:13:47.860]  [SPEAKER_19]: It also happens you left out a little detail.
[01:13:48.120 --> 01:13:48.560]  [SPEAKER_02]: What's that?
[01:13:48.720 --> 01:13:51.400]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, you, you got, you got the algorithm more or less right.
[01:13:51.640 --> 01:13:55.860]  [SPEAKER_19]: As far as I recall, when I, when I programmed that algorithm, that's the one I use more or less.
[01:13:56.040 --> 01:13:56.180]  [SPEAKER_35]: Right.
[01:13:56.300 --> 01:13:57.480]  [SPEAKER_19]: Or something equivalent to it.
[01:13:58.020 --> 01:14:07.060]  [SPEAKER_19]: But, uh, you left out, I think you mentioned that the first four digits, uh, refer to the issuer or the, uh, credit institution.
[01:14:07.200 --> 01:14:08.560]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, with Visa and MasterCard, yes.
[01:14:08.720 --> 01:14:08.860]  [SPEAKER_19]: Yeah.
[01:14:09.340 --> 01:14:15.200]  [SPEAKER_19]: But, uh, you left out a little gotcha, which is, uh, my phone's falling all over the place.
[01:14:15.840 --> 01:14:19.740]  [SPEAKER_19]: Uh, which is that the length of the, uh, card number is important.
[01:14:20.000 --> 01:14:20.380]  [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yes.
[01:14:20.380 --> 01:14:21.920]  [SPEAKER_02]: If it's odd or if it's even.
[01:14:22.320 --> 01:14:23.240]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, uh, yeah.
[01:14:23.280 --> 01:14:24.180]  [SPEAKER_19]: But the number of digits.
[01:14:24.480 --> 01:14:29.280]  [SPEAKER_19]: Because, uh, most point-of-sale terminals will check, uh, the actual length.
[01:14:29.280 --> 01:14:31.100]  [SPEAKER_19]: That is not, not just odd or even.
[01:14:31.400 --> 01:14:32.460]  [SPEAKER_19]: That's, that's true.
[01:14:32.880 --> 01:14:42.160]  [SPEAKER_19]: But, uh, I believe the Sears card and either Visa or MasterCard, uh, have the same first four digits.
[01:14:42.720 --> 01:14:47.500]  [SPEAKER_19]: But, uh, the length of one of them is, uh, uh, is a little longer.
[01:14:47.760 --> 01:14:51.160]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, 16 is the, uh, is the general length of, of Discover.
[01:14:51.460 --> 01:14:51.720]  [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[01:14:51.720 --> 01:14:55.340]  [SPEAKER_02]: As a MasterCard, there are some Visas and MasterCards that are, that are smaller than that.
[01:14:55.440 --> 01:14:56.240]  [SPEAKER_02]: I believe 13.
[01:14:56.240 --> 01:14:57.400]  [SPEAKER_19]: 13, that's correct.
[01:14:58.040 --> 01:15:01.380]  [SPEAKER_02]: So, uh, and American Express is, uh, is another strange number.
[01:15:01.540 --> 01:15:02.160]  [SPEAKER_02]: I think 15?
[01:15:02.600 --> 01:15:02.820]  [SPEAKER_19]: Yeah.
[01:15:03.280 --> 01:15:04.560]  [SPEAKER_19]: Chemical uses 17.
[01:15:05.100 --> 01:15:05.440]  [SPEAKER_19]: So...
[01:15:05.440 --> 01:15:06.920]  [SPEAKER_19]: And that's not, uh, on the same network.
[01:15:07.040 --> 01:15:14.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: It depends upon which, uh, if it's odd or even, depending on which number you, uh, you add a certain amount of numbers to.
[01:15:14.660 --> 01:15:15.000]  [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[01:15:15.160 --> 01:15:19.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: And then you divide the whole thing by 10, and if it's, if it's divisible, it's a valid number.
[01:15:19.440 --> 01:15:20.520]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's basically it.
[01:15:20.860 --> 01:15:22.420]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, yeah.
[01:15:23.040 --> 01:15:26.160]  [SPEAKER_19]: Uh, uh, actually, it's, it's kind of small change.
[01:15:26.240 --> 01:15:30.660]  [SPEAKER_19]: I'm just trying to, uh, to rip off the credit, uh, card companies with that.
[01:15:30.800 --> 01:15:33.640]  [SPEAKER_19]: Although, I guess if you go below the floor limit, you can, you know...
[01:15:33.640 --> 01:15:36.580]  [SPEAKER_53]: Well, there are companies that do not check the actual credit.
[01:15:36.580 --> 01:15:38.600]  [SPEAKER_19]: Uh, they don't check, uh, generally.
[01:15:39.040 --> 01:15:51.100]  [SPEAKER_19]: Uh, it all goes through, let's see, basically the system is, it goes through, uh, these things called, uh, MIPS, uh, front-end processors, uh, that I think are series ones.
[01:15:51.880 --> 01:15:57.200]  [SPEAKER_19]: And, uh, uh, uh, I believe they check, uh, a certain floor limit.
[01:15:57.300 --> 01:16:06.540]  [SPEAKER_19]: And if you're below that, they won't, uh, send it out to, uh, generally most of the transactions go, I think, up in Washington to a place called Deluxe Data.
[01:16:07.220 --> 01:16:07.920]  [SPEAKER_19]: Is that right?
[01:16:08.280 --> 01:16:09.520]  [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know that.
[01:16:09.640 --> 01:16:10.260]  [SPEAKER_19]: I think that's right.
[01:16:10.560 --> 01:16:12.240]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, I might have gotten Deluxe Data wrong.
[01:16:13.020 --> 01:16:16.220]  [SPEAKER_19]: But, uh, as far as I can recall, that's true.
[01:16:16.320 --> 01:16:17.880]  [SPEAKER_19]: But there is, uh, there is a floor limit.
[01:16:18.080 --> 01:16:20.940]  [SPEAKER_19]: So, uh, they don't even check below a certain number.
[01:16:21.340 --> 01:16:23.000]  [SPEAKER_02]: So, I want to get to one or two more calls.
[01:16:23.040 --> 01:16:24.120]  [SPEAKER_02]: Let me just ask you one final thing.
[01:16:24.240 --> 01:16:27.080]  [SPEAKER_02]: Do you trust me with the first three digits of your, uh, Social Security number?
[01:16:27.260 --> 01:16:27.460]  [SPEAKER_19]: Yeah.
[01:16:27.980 --> 01:16:28.600]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, what are they?
[01:16:28.720 --> 01:16:29.260]  [SPEAKER_19]: One, two, three.
[01:16:29.680 --> 01:16:30.620]  [SPEAKER_02]: One, two, three?
[01:16:30.940 --> 01:16:31.040]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[01:16:31.040 --> 01:16:32.580]  [SPEAKER_02]: You were born in New York, were you not?
[01:16:33.960 --> 01:16:35.540]  [SPEAKER_19]: Yes, I was.
[01:16:35.780 --> 01:16:35.920]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[01:16:36.240 --> 01:16:37.900]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's nothing to be ashamed of there.
[01:16:38.720 --> 01:16:39.480]  [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks for calling.
[01:16:39.640 --> 01:16:42.680]  [SPEAKER_19]: And, uh, also, I'm a subscriber to WBAI.
[01:16:42.860 --> 01:16:45.340]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, well, make sure all your friends and neighbors are, too, okay?
[01:16:45.800 --> 01:16:46.940]  [SPEAKER_19]: I don't talk to them.
[01:16:47.140 --> 01:16:50.560]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, well, it'd be a good way to, uh, to break ground with them, then.
[01:16:51.080 --> 01:16:52.020]  [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks very much for calling.
[01:16:52.160 --> 01:16:52.540]  [SPEAKER_02]: Sure, bye.
[01:16:53.260 --> 01:16:55.620]  [SPEAKER_02]: 212-279-3407 for call-ins.
[01:16:55.760 --> 01:17:00.060]  [SPEAKER_02]: 212-279-3400 for, uh, for pledges.
[01:17:00.180 --> 01:17:02.300]  [SPEAKER_02]: We do need to get those pledges coming in.
[01:17:02.580 --> 01:17:14.020]  [SPEAKER_02]: Because, uh, we have interviews coming up, we've got features coming up, we've got education coming up, but, uh, it can't continue unless we hear from you.
[01:17:14.700 --> 01:17:15.500]  [SPEAKER_02]: Simple as that.
[01:17:15.660 --> 01:17:17.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: 212-279-3400.
[01:17:17.640 --> 01:17:28.860]  [SPEAKER_02]: If you've gotten something out of this program, if you've gotten something out of programs in the past, if you've gotten something out of, uh, anything on WBAI within the last couple of months, and I'm sure if you're listening now, you probably have.
[01:17:28.860 --> 01:17:33.660]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, you almost definitely have because there's so much here, you know?
[01:17:33.700 --> 01:17:37.220]  [SPEAKER_02]: There's so much, uh, in, in the way of diverse programming.
[01:17:37.400 --> 01:17:39.960]  [SPEAKER_02]: Here's something that, uh, that just came in.
[01:17:41.320 --> 01:17:42.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: Actually, put this in the machine here.
[01:17:44.640 --> 01:17:51.300]  [SPEAKER_02]: And we're going to hear a program or a promotion for a program that's going to, uh, be coming up later on today.
[01:17:52.560 --> 01:17:58.860]  [SPEAKER_02]: And this will give you an idea of the kinds of things that we have every day, 365 days a year here in WBAI.
[01:17:59.840 --> 01:18:04.680]  [SPEAKER_02]: Your call at 212-279-3400 makes programs like this possible.
[01:18:11.190 --> 01:18:15.270]  [SPEAKER_12]: Tune in tonight for a special Radio Free Aaron WBAI Marathon program.
[01:18:15.510 --> 01:18:19.350]  [SPEAKER_12]: From 8.30 to 11 o'clock, we'll be featuring British Parliamentarian Anthony Benn.
[01:18:19.590 --> 01:18:27.730]  [SPEAKER_12]: We'll be discussing a wide range of issues, from Ireland to the Gulf War, to solutions to Britain's role in the ongoing occupation of Ireland's six northeast counties.
[01:18:28.330 --> 01:18:35.890]  [SPEAKER_12]: Join Mick DeWaughan and John McDonough for this and more tonight at 8.30 on your listener-sponsored radio station, WBAI New York.
[01:18:49.090 --> 01:18:49.790]  [SPEAKER_02]: There you go.
[01:18:49.850 --> 01:19:00.690]  [SPEAKER_02]: Just one example of the, uh, many different kinds of programs we have here in WBAI, but only, only available to you if you help us out and, uh, keep us going.
[01:19:00.710 --> 01:19:06.990]  [SPEAKER_02]: Because if, uh, we don't reach our goals, it's going to chip away at the radio station that exists here.
[01:19:08.550 --> 01:19:10.350]  [SPEAKER_02]: 212-279-3400.
[01:19:10.550 --> 01:19:15.390]  [SPEAKER_02]: Let's get two more calls to, uh, make a pledge of, uh, whatever it is you can't afford.
[01:19:16.010 --> 01:19:23.890]  [SPEAKER_02]: For, uh, $65, you can get a, uh, a WBAI t-shirt or a WBAI baseball cap.
[01:19:24.950 --> 01:19:35.330]  [SPEAKER_02]: And every call, every pledge, we'll get a free copy of, uh, 2600 Magazine, the Hacker Quarterly, where we talk about all kinds of, uh, neat and interesting things.
[01:19:35.970 --> 01:19:39.730]  [SPEAKER_02]: Calls 212-279-3400.
[01:19:40.790 --> 01:19:42.010]  [SPEAKER_02]: Let's take some more calls.
[01:19:42.110 --> 01:19:42.450]  [SPEAKER_02]: Good evening.
[01:19:43.030 --> 01:19:43.690]  [SPEAKER_05]: Hi, Emmanuel.
[01:19:43.850 --> 01:19:45.110]  [SPEAKER_05]: Good show, as usual.
[01:19:45.770 --> 01:19:47.770]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, everybody out there should pledge.
[01:19:48.350 --> 01:19:49.590]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's really important.
[01:19:50.650 --> 01:19:57.890]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, uh, I actually, I have an article sitting here that was, was on my desk and says, send Emmanuel Goldstein.
[01:19:58.910 --> 01:20:01.410]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, uh, lo and behold, there you are on the radio.
[01:20:02.110 --> 01:20:04.390]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, um, it's, it's kind of interesting.
[01:20:04.390 --> 01:20:12.650]  [SPEAKER_05]: The issue that you've sort of been discussing tonight is attempts on the part of the government or governments, uh, to limit our access to information.
[01:20:12.950 --> 01:20:17.830]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, but they want, uh, a complete and total access, uh, to our information.
[01:20:18.110 --> 01:20:20.330]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, there was an article, I, I, are you familiar with it?
[01:20:20.330 --> 01:20:28.550]  [SPEAKER_05]: It was in the New York Times on, uh, 4-17-91 on page A-16 titled, The Move on Unscrambling of Messages is Assailed.
[01:20:28.810 --> 01:20:29.930]  [SPEAKER_05]: Are you familiar with that?
[01:20:29.970 --> 01:20:30.890]  [SPEAKER_02]: No, I missed that one.
[01:20:31.050 --> 01:20:32.690]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, may I read the first paragraph or two?
[01:20:32.830 --> 01:20:33.170]  [SPEAKER_02]: Go ahead.
[01:20:33.650 --> 01:20:36.310]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, it reads, uh, it's by, uh, John Markoff.
[01:20:36.690 --> 01:20:50.150]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, a measure tucked inside a recently proposed Senate bill calls on telephone and computer companies to give the government the means to unscramble private electronic messages and telephone conversations that have been encrypted to ensure privacy.
[01:20:50.330 --> 01:20:59.910]  [SPEAKER_05]: The provision is defended as a way to prevent the concealment of illegal activity, but has, it has alarmed business executives and civil libertarians.
[01:21:00.070 --> 01:21:01.410]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I'll skip down a little bit here.
[01:21:01.630 --> 01:21:13.490]  [SPEAKER_05]: The Senate proposal calls on phone companies and computer equipment manufacturers to permit the government to obtain unscrambled voice and computer data transmissions when searches are authorized by law.
[01:21:13.730 --> 01:21:21.070]  [SPEAKER_05]: The proposal is worded as a resolution in a counterterrorism bill introduced in January by Senator Joseph R.
[01:21:21.170 --> 01:21:22.850]  [SPEAKER_05]: Biden, Jr., Democrat of Delaware.
[01:21:23.170 --> 01:21:25.270]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I'll skip over to the last paragraph.
[01:21:25.850 --> 01:21:38.330]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, but a number of civil liberties experts said that such a resolution, if such a resolution became law, computer makers and communications companies would be forced to place special trap doors in their products.
[01:21:38.330 --> 01:21:45.350]  [SPEAKER_05]: These are special software entrances that would permit law enforcement officials to read scrambled text or voice messages.
[01:21:46.170 --> 01:21:58.350]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, I, I, I just, you know, when I remember back when the initial, uh, discussion of wiretapping was going on and there was a big fight over whether they should allow any wiretapping at all on the part of the government.
[01:21:58.350 --> 01:22:01.150]  [SPEAKER_05]: This is about, I don't know, 17 years ago, 18 years ago.
[01:22:01.390 --> 01:22:10.730]  [SPEAKER_05]: And recently, uh, I read an article somewhere that there are now, what, 130, 140 federal agencies that are routinely tapping telephones and listening to PIN register stuff.
[01:22:11.130 --> 01:22:24.190]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, uh, so this resolution, which although it, it, uh, uses the phrase, uh, uh, authorized searches, uh, uh, uh, uh, that has not been the case with telephone data, and I'm sure it wouldn't be the case with, uh, computer data.
[01:22:24.190 --> 01:22:28.270]  [SPEAKER_05]: And people should subscribe because this is the only place that you'll hear about stuff like this.
[01:22:28.390 --> 01:22:28.830]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's right.
[01:22:28.830 --> 01:22:35.950]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, uh, it's something you'll see a lot more authorized searches in the future because it's going to be so much easier to do an authorized search.
[01:22:36.490 --> 01:22:50.230]  [SPEAKER_05]: But, uh, I just find it odd that, that, that, that if the government is so concerned with freedom and, and legality that, uh, uh, they don't want me to look at anything, but, uh, they want to have a, a clean, clean and open, uh, highway into anything,
[01:22:50.630 --> 01:22:51.830]  [SPEAKER_05]: uh, uh, I have.
[01:22:51.830 --> 01:23:05.510]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, uh, uh, whether it's radio communications, telephone communications, uh, uh, it's interesting that the, uh, I don't know if you've discussed it, that during the war, uh, uh, uh, uh, the first, uh, uh, the first, uh, the first warnings were issued,
[01:23:05.630 --> 01:23:21.170]  [SPEAKER_05]: uh, concerning packet ham radio communications to the, uh, coalition, as a matter of fact, uh, by the FCC in, uh, Virginia, uh, uh, uh, when they were, uh, uh, uh, uh, you know, it was routinely being used, uh, by a variety of different, different sources,
[01:23:21.410 --> 01:23:27.290]  [SPEAKER_05]: and they decided to clamp down on the commercial clauses and claim that the coalition was commercial and couldn't use packet ham transmission.
[01:23:27.630 --> 01:23:28.030]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh-huh.
[01:23:28.270 --> 01:23:32.710]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, I think they issued seven or eight, uh, citations to the, uh, coalition.
[01:23:33.450 --> 01:23:36.270]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, pretty insidious, but, uh, keep up the good work.
[01:23:36.390 --> 01:23:36.650]  [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.
[01:23:36.750 --> 01:23:38.130]  [SPEAKER_02]: And do you trust me with the first three numbers?
[01:23:38.330 --> 01:23:38.930]  [SPEAKER_05]: 3-9-5.
[01:23:39.210 --> 01:23:39.530]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm waiting.
[01:23:39.750 --> 01:23:42.030]  [SPEAKER_02]: 3-9-5, uh, Wisconsin?
[01:23:42.030 --> 01:23:43.070]  [SPEAKER_05]: Very good.
[01:23:43.310 --> 01:23:43.970]  [SPEAKER_05]: Very good.
[01:23:44.170 --> 01:23:44.430]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[01:23:44.730 --> 01:23:45.190]  [SPEAKER_05]: Drink beer.
[01:23:45.550 --> 01:23:45.910]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[01:23:46.870 --> 01:23:47.670]  [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks for calling.
[01:23:47.870 --> 01:23:47.990]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[01:23:48.010 --> 01:23:48.210]  [SPEAKER_02]: Bye-bye.
[01:23:48.710 --> 01:23:54.210]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, uh, yes, if you, uh, trust me with the first three numbers of your social security number, I can probably tell you where you were born.
[01:23:54.810 --> 01:23:56.390]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, now, there's a note up there.
[01:23:56.510 --> 01:23:57.630]  [SPEAKER_02]: Rick Frost donated.
[01:23:57.730 --> 01:23:58.290]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, okay.
[01:23:59.510 --> 01:24:05.690]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, I don't know if that's a little dot there, but either Rick Frost donated $500 or he donated $5.
[01:24:05.850 --> 01:24:06.930]  [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know which.
[01:24:07.370 --> 01:24:10.630]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, but I hope, uh, it's not a clerical error in either direction.
[01:24:10.630 --> 01:24:11.690]  [SPEAKER_02]: He's from Clifton, New Jersey.
[01:24:11.890 --> 01:24:13.650]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, I'm sure they're making a correction on it right now.
[01:24:14.070 --> 01:24:16.130]  [SPEAKER_02]: Um, I have a feeling it's not $500.
[01:24:16.390 --> 01:24:17.270]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, that is a dot.
[01:24:17.410 --> 01:24:18.890]  [SPEAKER_02]: They're $5, not $500.
[01:24:19.130 --> 01:24:24.430]  [SPEAKER_02]: But if you want to donate $500, boy, think of, you know, I won't have to say another word all night long, probably.
[01:24:24.430 --> 01:24:26.890]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, if somebody was nice enough to do that.
[01:24:28.050 --> 01:24:29.990]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, there's a lot of rich people out there.
[01:24:30.110 --> 01:24:30.730]  [SPEAKER_02]: There really are.
[01:24:30.810 --> 01:24:35.810]  [SPEAKER_02]: There are a lot of people that can, uh, you know, afford to donate a substantial amount to this radio station.
[01:24:35.950 --> 01:24:39.770]  [SPEAKER_02]: But, you know, not, we're not saying this to, uh, you know, to mock them or anything like that.
[01:24:39.850 --> 01:24:44.370]  [SPEAKER_02]: We know there's a lot of rich people out there that, that have values that, uh, are, are worth something.
[01:24:44.590 --> 01:24:46.890]  [SPEAKER_02]: That care about a radio station like WBAI.
[01:24:46.890 --> 01:24:53.250]  [SPEAKER_02]: Think of the amount of good that you can do by making a pledge that will carry such weight.
[01:24:53.550 --> 01:24:57.570]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, $5 pledges are great and we're thankful for them.
[01:24:57.710 --> 01:24:59.330]  [SPEAKER_02]: And we want to thank Rick for calling in.
[01:25:00.890 --> 01:25:03.090]  [SPEAKER_02]: But we need lots of pledges.
[01:25:03.290 --> 01:25:07.350]  [SPEAKER_02]: We need lots of $5 pledges, lots of, you know, $50 pledges.
[01:25:07.770 --> 01:25:10.170]  [SPEAKER_02]: And those big pledges add up.
[01:25:10.310 --> 01:25:11.470]  [SPEAKER_02]: And those little pledges add up.
[01:25:11.550 --> 01:25:13.190]  [SPEAKER_02]: But we need to get those phone lines lit.
[01:25:13.190 --> 01:25:22.610]  [SPEAKER_02]: But, 212-279-3400, think of the bits of information that you would not get from other radio stations, from other sources, other media sources, anywhere.
[01:25:23.030 --> 01:25:23.850]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's true.
[01:25:23.850 --> 01:25:30.150]  [SPEAKER_02]: You don't get them because commercial interests control just about every media outlet in this town.
[01:25:30.650 --> 01:25:33.990]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's a sad fact, but it's a true fact.
[01:25:34.510 --> 01:25:39.750]  [SPEAKER_02]: 212-279-3400, show your support for non-commercial radio.
[01:25:39.750 --> 01:25:43.870]  [SPEAKER_02]: Show your support for independent, free-thinking radio.
[01:25:44.210 --> 01:25:46.710]  [SPEAKER_02]: And show your support for public access radio.
[01:25:46.710 --> 01:25:52.270]  [SPEAKER_02]: Because we give our listeners as much access as we can possibly give them.
[01:25:53.190 --> 01:25:54.990]  [SPEAKER_02]: 212-279-3400.
[01:25:55.170 --> 01:25:59.570]  [SPEAKER_02]: We have the Steve Jackson interview coming up in just a couple of minutes.
[01:25:59.570 --> 01:26:02.970]  [SPEAKER_02]: Let's take one more phone call and then we'll move over towards that direction.
[01:26:03.370 --> 01:26:04.130]  [SPEAKER_02]: Good evening.
[01:26:04.650 --> 01:26:05.150]  [SPEAKER_18]: Yeah, how you doing?
[01:26:05.350 --> 01:26:06.010]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, how are you?
[01:26:06.010 --> 01:26:09.610]  [SPEAKER_18]: Okay, you mentioned before the caller ID.
[01:26:09.910 --> 01:26:12.630]  [SPEAKER_18]: Now, we don't have that in New York at this time, right?
[01:26:12.970 --> 01:26:17.670]  [SPEAKER_02]: Not yet, although I'm sure it's going to come at some point, probably sometime in the next year.
[01:26:18.090 --> 01:26:20.910]  [SPEAKER_18]: Right, now I'm seeing commercials that's only in Jersey so far.
[01:26:21.170 --> 01:26:22.990]  [SPEAKER_02]: Right, you're seeing those Bell Atlantic commercials.
[01:26:23.310 --> 01:26:23.510]  [SPEAKER_18]: Right.
[01:26:23.770 --> 01:26:28.150]  [SPEAKER_18]: Now, there's no other way of doing that now, of finding out who's calling your number.
[01:26:29.110 --> 01:26:38.270]  [SPEAKER_02]: Not in New York, unless you get some kind of a trace put on your line, or unless you're able to convince them to call an 800 number, you can get their number that way.
[01:26:38.370 --> 01:26:38.710]  [SPEAKER_18]: You mentioned that.
[01:26:38.770 --> 01:26:39.430]  [SPEAKER_18]: What is that all about?
[01:26:39.870 --> 01:26:40.230]  [SPEAKER_18]: Well...
[01:26:40.230 --> 01:26:40.950]  [SPEAKER_18]: I don't understand that.
[01:26:40.990 --> 01:26:43.990]  [SPEAKER_18]: When you said you pay $20 more a month and you have an 800, what is that?
[01:26:44.210 --> 01:26:53.530]  [SPEAKER_02]: There's one company in particular, Cable and Wireless, that offers a service where you pay $20 a month and you can have a programmable 800 number.
[01:26:53.530 --> 01:26:55.970]  [SPEAKER_02]: There's... MCI has an 800 number, too.
[01:26:56.550 --> 01:26:59.890]  [SPEAKER_02]: Sprint has 800 numbers that you can get for fairly low prices.
[01:27:00.390 --> 01:27:05.110]  [SPEAKER_02]: And when you... after you pay your monthly fee, you pay for every call that comes in, obviously.
[01:27:05.630 --> 01:27:08.110]  [SPEAKER_02]: What you do is you get kind of a reverse phone bill.
[01:27:08.330 --> 01:27:10.530]  [SPEAKER_02]: You get the numbers of the people that call you.
[01:27:10.810 --> 01:27:14.130]  [SPEAKER_02]: Since you're paying for the calls, you have the right to know who is calling you.
[01:27:14.330 --> 01:27:17.890]  [SPEAKER_18]: Now, in other words, the people would have to be dialing as an 800 also, right?
[01:27:17.890 --> 01:27:18.390]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's right.
[01:27:18.510 --> 01:27:23.290]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you'd have to give them that number and have them call that number, and then you can find out who is calling you.
[01:27:23.850 --> 01:27:25.030]  [SPEAKER_18]: Well, that would come under business.
[01:27:25.210 --> 01:27:27.130]  [SPEAKER_18]: They would give you that for private use also.
[01:27:27.270 --> 01:27:28.510]  [SPEAKER_02]: That can be for private use, yes.
[01:27:28.690 --> 01:27:33.510]  [SPEAKER_02]: MCI has a service known as Personal 800, and the other companies also offer similar services.
[01:27:33.650 --> 01:27:34.730]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not certain about AT&T.
[01:27:34.790 --> 01:27:37.850]  [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if they offer something, but it's worth asking.
[01:27:37.990 --> 01:27:39.570]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's certainly a valuable thing to have.
[01:27:39.730 --> 01:27:45.390]  [SPEAKER_18]: But the main reason for the ID would be to catch somebody that you really doesn't want to be known.
[01:27:45.430 --> 01:27:47.030]  [SPEAKER_18]: In other words, you want to know who they are.
[01:27:47.110 --> 01:27:57.490]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I'll tell you, it's kind of a murky thing because, you know, anybody with any sense whatsoever will know that if they call from their home, they're likely to be caught if they're harassing somebody.
[01:27:58.190 --> 01:28:04.110]  [SPEAKER_02]: Caller ID is not the answer that everybody is saying it is because it's very easy to get around, and it always will be.
[01:28:04.210 --> 01:28:06.430]  [SPEAKER_02]: People can call from payphones.
[01:28:06.550 --> 01:28:08.470]  [SPEAKER_02]: They can route their calls in various ways.
[01:28:08.630 --> 01:28:10.070]  [SPEAKER_02]: They can circumvent the system.
[01:28:10.310 --> 01:28:12.630]  [SPEAKER_02]: So it's not 100%.
[01:28:12.630 --> 01:28:16.650]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's something, but I think it's more something for the phone companies than it is for us.
[01:28:16.650 --> 01:28:17.050]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[01:28:17.110 --> 01:28:19.770]  [SPEAKER_18]: How much do you think that would be a month when it comes into here?
[01:28:19.950 --> 01:28:24.230]  [SPEAKER_02]: Caller ID, I think it's something between $5 and $10 a month.
[01:28:24.510 --> 01:28:25.190]  [SPEAKER_18]: Would you get it?
[01:28:25.850 --> 01:28:33.050]  [SPEAKER_02]: I might get it just to experiment with it, just to see, you know, how I can make certain numbers show up and how I can defeat the system.
[01:28:33.050 --> 01:28:35.910]  [SPEAKER_02]: So I would get it to play around with, but I would never depend upon it.
[01:28:36.210 --> 01:28:36.390]  [SPEAKER_18]: Right.
[01:28:36.530 --> 01:28:42.710]  [SPEAKER_18]: Now, I've seen in the booklet here, it said that it would only work if the person is calling you also from an area where it is hooked up.
[01:28:42.710 --> 01:28:43.190]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[01:28:43.370 --> 01:28:48.930]  [SPEAKER_02]: In fact, something about caller ID, it's pretty much restricted to your local area.
[01:28:49.610 --> 01:28:51.210]  [SPEAKER_02]: I think that's the case in New Jersey.
[01:28:51.370 --> 01:28:56.970]  [SPEAKER_02]: Perhaps somebody from New Jersey can call in and let us know this, but I'm pretty sure it's restricted to your central office.
[01:28:57.070 --> 01:29:02.170]  [SPEAKER_02]: In other words, a person in southern New Jersey calling northern New Jersey is not going to show up as a caller ID.
[01:29:02.450 --> 01:29:02.870]  [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, wow.
[01:29:02.870 --> 01:29:05.210]  [SPEAKER_02]: But in the future, in the future, that certainly will be the case.
[01:29:05.310 --> 01:29:06.950]  [SPEAKER_02]: We'll probably have nationwide caller ID.
[01:29:07.270 --> 01:29:07.630]  [SPEAKER_18]: Right, right.
[01:29:07.830 --> 01:29:09.210]  [SPEAKER_02]: So it is moving towards that.
[01:29:09.550 --> 01:29:10.170]  [SPEAKER_18]: Okay, great.
[01:29:10.350 --> 01:29:10.630]  [SPEAKER_18]: Thank you.
[01:29:10.770 --> 01:29:11.410]  [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks for calling.
[01:29:18.040 --> 01:29:22.340]  [SPEAKER_02]: Our number is 212-279-3400.
[01:29:22.620 --> 01:29:29.760]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's the number to call to make a pledge, and I cannot, I cannot overemphasize the importance of making that pledge now.
[01:29:30.620 --> 01:29:43.100]  [SPEAKER_02]: There's people driving, there's people trying to fall asleep that can't and are getting disturbed by all the troubling things they're hearing, and also people that are fascinated by all of this.
[01:29:43.660 --> 01:29:52.260]  [SPEAKER_02]: But in order for us to be here next year, and to be here the year after that, and to continue to bring you programs like this, we need to hear from you.
[01:29:52.740 --> 01:29:53.600]  [SPEAKER_02]: We really do.
[01:29:53.760 --> 01:29:57.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: And if you can support us by using Visa and MasterCard, that's fine.
[01:29:57.440 --> 01:29:58.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: It might make things a little bit easier for you.
[01:29:59.140 --> 01:30:06.400]  [SPEAKER_02]: If you can support us by pledging whatever amount you feel is right, then please do that.
[01:30:06.400 --> 01:30:09.560]  [SPEAKER_02]: 212-279-3400.
[01:30:09.760 --> 01:30:12.840]  [SPEAKER_02]: Make that call, and get other people to make that call too.
[01:30:12.880 --> 01:30:13.460]  [SPEAKER_02]: We know it's late.
[01:30:13.560 --> 01:30:15.840]  [SPEAKER_02]: We know it's the overnight period.
[01:30:16.600 --> 01:30:19.760]  [SPEAKER_02]: But that's no reason not to make a call.
[01:30:20.000 --> 01:30:22.740]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's no reason not to support your favorite radio station.
[01:30:25.240 --> 01:30:29.320]  [SPEAKER_02]: We hope to see two more calls before we go into Steve Jackson.
[01:30:30.720 --> 01:30:32.520]  [SPEAKER_02]: We have some information about Steve Jackson.
[01:30:32.680 --> 01:30:37.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: First, we're going to do a little musical break and do give us a call.
[01:30:37.660 --> 01:30:40.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: 212-279-3400.
[01:30:40.440 --> 01:30:41.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: nice
[01:31:15.930 --> 01:31:17.090]  [SPEAKER_35]: day, buddy.
[01:31:17.690 --> 01:31:37.950]  [SPEAKER_31]: I'm trying to get under everybody and do your
[01:32:20.870 --> 01:32:21.450]  best.
[01:32:21.450 --> 01:32:23.830]  [SPEAKER_35]: I broke up in a bar.
[01:32:24.270 --> 01:32:27.010]  [SPEAKER_35]: I said I'd never been a loser.
[01:32:27.470 --> 01:32:30.650]  [SPEAKER_35]: A life that's earned in one machine.
[01:32:30.950 --> 01:32:32.930]  [SPEAKER_35]: It's ten times worth it.
[01:32:33.270 --> 01:32:33.770]  We've been
[01:32:39.560 --> 01:32:40.640]  together.
[01:32:41.260 --> 01:32:44.880]  [SPEAKER_35]: What do you think they want to say you knew us?
[01:32:45.120 --> 01:32:47.300]  [SPEAKER_35]: Why would we be together?
[01:32:48.620 --> 01:32:51.620]  [SPEAKER_35]: And there you'll meet your rock and tear.
[01:32:51.980 --> 01:32:54.400]  [SPEAKER_35]: Cause that's where we're big.
[01:33:17.970 --> 01:33:27.170]  [SPEAKER_02]: In his office, there might be a document compromising the security of the 911 telephone system.
[01:33:29.170 --> 01:33:35.630]  [SPEAKER_02]: In the months that followed, Jackson saw the business he had built up over many years dragged to the edge of bankruptcy.
[01:33:37.050 --> 01:33:45.250]  [SPEAKER_02]: Steve Jackson Games was a successful and prestigious publisher of books and other materials used in adventure role-playing games.
[01:33:45.250 --> 01:33:55.930]  [SPEAKER_02]: Jackson also operated a computer bulletin board system, known as a BBS, to communicate with his customers and writers and obtain feedback and suggestions on new gaming ideas.
[01:33:56.470 --> 01:34:01.650]  [SPEAKER_02]: The bulletin board was also the repository of private electronic mail belonging to several of its users.
[01:34:02.350 --> 01:34:04.770]  [SPEAKER_02]: This private mail was seized in the raid.
[01:34:05.270 --> 01:34:13.030]  [SPEAKER_02]: Despite repeated requests for the return of his manuscripts and equipment, the Secret Service has refused to comply fully.
[01:34:15.250 --> 01:34:21.770]  [SPEAKER_02]: And today, that date being May 1st, 1991.
[01:34:24.290 --> 01:34:37.190]  [SPEAKER_02]: Today, more than a year after that raid, the Electronic Frontier Foundation, acting with Steve Jackson Games owner, Steve Jackson, has filed a precedent-setting civil suit against the United States Secret Service.
[01:34:45.990 --> 01:35:00.310]  [SPEAKER_02]: This is the most important case brought to date, said EFF General Counsel Mike Godwin, to vindicate the constitutional rights of the users of computer-based communications technology.
[01:35:00.310 --> 01:35:04.070]  [SPEAKER_02]: It will establish the constitutional dimension of electronic expression.
[01:35:04.950 --> 01:35:13.070]  [SPEAKER_02]: It also will be one of the first cases that invokes the Electronic Communications and Privacy Act as a shield, and not as a sword.
[01:35:13.430 --> 01:35:21.750]  [SPEAKER_02]: An act that guarantees users of this digital medium the same privacy protections enjoyed by those who use the telephone and the U.S.
[01:35:21.830 --> 01:35:22.150]  [SPEAKER_02]: mail.
[01:35:24.110 --> 01:35:36.270]  [SPEAKER_02]: Commenting on the overall role of the Electronic Frontier Foundation in this case and other matters, EFF's President Mitch Kapoor said, we have been acting as an organization interested in defending the wrongly accused.
[01:35:36.970 --> 01:35:42.690]  [SPEAKER_02]: But the Electronic Frontier Foundation is also going to be active in establishing broader principles.
[01:35:43.110 --> 01:35:45.870]  [SPEAKER_02]: We begin with this case where the issues are clear.
[01:35:46.670 --> 01:36:00.390]  [SPEAKER_02]: But behind this specific action, the EFF also believes that it is vital that government, private entities and individuals who have violated the constitutional rights of individuals be held accountable for their actions.
[01:36:01.210 --> 01:36:11.490]  [SPEAKER_02]: We also hope this case will help demystify the world of computer users to the general public and inform them about the potential of computer communities.
[01:36:17.860 --> 01:36:24.780]  [SPEAKER_02]: With this case, the Electronic Frontier Foundation begins a new phase of affirmative legal action.
[01:36:27.320 --> 01:36:35.660]  [SPEAKER_02]: In their press release, they say, we intend to fight for broad constitutional protection for operators and users of computer bulletin boards.
[01:36:36.460 --> 01:36:45.500]  [SPEAKER_02]: It is essential to establish the principle that computer bulletin boards and computer conferencing systems are entitled to the same First Amendment rights enjoyed by other media.
[01:36:48.000 --> 01:37:04.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: It is also critical to establish that operators of bulletin boards, whether individuals or businesses, are not subject to unconstitutional, overbroad searches and seizures of any of the contents of their systems, including electronic mail.
[01:37:07.550 --> 01:37:22.830]  [SPEAKER_02]: And the Electronic Frontier Foundation also believes that it is vital to hold government, private entities and individuals who have violated the constitutional rights of others accountable for their actions.
[01:37:24.830 --> 01:37:36.750]  [SPEAKER_02]: This lawsuit seeks to vindicate the rights of a small successful entrepreneur publisher to conduct this entirely lawful business free of unjustified governmental interference.
[01:37:38.310 --> 01:37:55.930]  [SPEAKER_02]: It is also the goal of this litigation to firmly establish the principle that lawful activities carried out with the aid of computer technology, including computer communications and publishing, are entitled to the same constitutional protections that have long been accorded to the print medium.
[01:37:58.410 --> 01:38:12.170]  [SPEAKER_02]: Computers and modems, no less than printing presses, typewriters, the mail, and telephones, being the methods selected by Americans to communicate with one another, are all protected by our constitutional rights.
[01:38:25.720 --> 01:38:30.420]  [SPEAKER_02]: Steve Jackson of Austin, Texas, is a successful small businessman.
[01:38:30.420 --> 01:38:38.420]  [SPEAKER_02]: And his company, Steve Jackson Games, is an award-winning publisher of adventure games and related books and magazines.
[01:38:39.520 --> 01:38:48.020]  [SPEAKER_02]: In addition to its books and magazines, Steve Jackson Games operates an electronic bulletin board system known as the Illuminati BBS.
[01:38:49.200 --> 01:38:54.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's operated for its customers and for others interested in adventure games and related literary genres.
[01:38:56.940 --> 01:39:01.900]  [SPEAKER_02]: Also named as plaintiffs are various users of the Illuminati BBS.
[01:39:02.540 --> 01:39:08.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: The professional interests of these users range from writing to computer technology.
[01:39:09.720 --> 01:39:19.840]  [SPEAKER_02]: Although neither Jackson nor his company were suspected of any criminal activity, the company was rendered a near-fatal blow on March 1, 1990.
[01:39:21.100 --> 01:39:32.460]  [SPEAKER_02]: When agents of the United States Secret Service, aided by other law enforcement officials, raided its office, seizing computer equipment necessary to the operation of its publishing business.
[01:39:33.920 --> 01:39:46.420]  [SPEAKER_02]: The government seized the Illuminati BBS and all of the communications stored on it, including private electronic mail, shutting down the BBS for over a month.
[01:39:48.360 --> 01:40:03.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: The Secret Service also seized publications protected by the First Amendment, including drafts of the about-to-be-released role-playing game, a book known as GURPS Cyberpunk.
[01:40:06.040 --> 01:40:14.160]  [SPEAKER_02]: The publication of the book was substantially delayed while Steve Jackson Games employees rewrote it from older drafts.
[01:40:15.100 --> 01:40:29.660]  [SPEAKER_02]: This fantasy game book, which one agent preposterously called a handbook for computer crime, has since sold over 16,000 copies and been nominated for a prestigious game industry award.
[01:40:31.880 --> 01:40:35.500]  [SPEAKER_02]: No evidence of criminal activity was ever found.
[01:40:37.920 --> 01:40:54.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: The warrant application, which remains sealed at the government's request for seven months, reveals that the agents were investigating an employee of the company, whom they believed to be engaged in activity they found questionable at his home and on his own time.
[01:40:55.760 --> 01:41:19.420]  [SPEAKER_02]: The warrant application further reveals not only that the Secret Service had no reason to think any evidence of criminal activity would be found at Steve Jackson Games, but also that the government omitted telling the magistrate who issued the warrant that Steve Jackson Games was a publisher and that the contemplated raid would cause a prior restraint on constitutionally protected speech,
[01:41:19.620 --> 01:41:23.040]  [SPEAKER_02]: publication, and association.
[01:41:24.960 --> 01:41:38.040]  [SPEAKER_02]: The defendants in this case are the United States Secret Service and the individuals who, by planning and carrying out this grossly illegal search and seizure, abused the power conferred upon them by the federal government.
[01:41:40.840 --> 01:41:44.700]  [SPEAKER_02]: Those individuals include Assistant United States Attorney William J.
[01:41:45.060 --> 01:41:57.760]  [SPEAKER_02]: Cook, Secret Service agents Timothy Foley and Barbara Golden, as well as Henry Klupfel of Belcor, who actively participated in the unlawful activities as an agent of the federal government.
[01:41:59.920 --> 01:42:07.900]  [SPEAKER_02]: These defendants are the same individuals and entities responsible for the prosecution last year of electronic publisher Craig Neidorf.
[01:42:09.380 --> 01:42:19.500]  [SPEAKER_02]: The government in that case charged that Neidorf's publication of materials concerning the enhanced 911 system constituted interstate transportation of stolen property.
[01:42:20.720 --> 01:42:30.460]  [SPEAKER_02]: The prosecution was resolved in Neidorf's favor in July of 1990 when Neidorf demonstrated that materials he published were generally available to the public.
[01:42:33.260 --> 01:42:52.700]  [SPEAKER_02]: This case is about the constitutional and statutory rights of publishers who conduct their activities in electronic media rather than in the traditional print and hard copy media, as well as the rights of individuals and companies that use computer technology to communicate,
[01:42:54.020 --> 01:42:58.740]  [SPEAKER_02]: as well as to conduct personal and business affairs generally.
[01:43:00.000 --> 01:43:27.430]  [SPEAKER_02]: The government's wholly unjustified raid on Steve Jackson games and seizure of its books, magazines, and bulletin board system violated clearly established statutory and constitutional law, including the Privacy Protection Act of 1980, which generally prohibits the government from searching the offices of publishers for work,
[01:43:27.530 --> 01:43:31.710]  [SPEAKER_02]: product, and other documents, including materials that are electronically stored.
[01:43:33.250 --> 01:43:35.250]  [SPEAKER_02]: The First Amendment to the U.S.
[01:43:35.390 --> 01:43:46.470]  [SPEAKER_02]: Constitution, which guarantees freedom of speech of the press and of association, and which prohibits the government from censoring publications, whether in printed or electronic media.
[01:43:47.070 --> 01:44:02.350]  [SPEAKER_02]: The Fourth Amendment, which prohibits unreasonable governmental searches and seizures, including both general searches and searches conducted without probable cause, to believe that specific evidence of criminal activity will be found at the locations searched.
[01:44:04.010 --> 01:44:16.790]  [SPEAKER_02]: And the Electronic Communications Privacy Act and the Federal Wiretap Statute, which together prohibits the government from seizing electronic communications without justification and proper authorization.
[01:44:19.110 --> 01:44:27.530]  [SPEAKER_02]: All that coming from the May 1st, 1991 edition of the Electronic Frontier Foundation publication, The Factor.
[01:44:30.800 --> 01:44:33.040]  [SPEAKER_02]: The lawsuit has been started.
[01:44:33.720 --> 01:44:40.840]  [SPEAKER_02]: The legal action has finally been taken against the Secret Service for its actions.
[01:44:40.840 --> 01:44:44.500]  [SPEAKER_02]: In this particular case, actions against Steve Jackson games.
[01:44:45.700 --> 01:45:04.400]  [SPEAKER_02]: But over the past few years, since 1984, actions against hackers, publishers, teenage kids, and things that have resulted in a very scary scenario.
[01:45:06.340 --> 01:45:08.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: In just a moment, we'll hear from Steve Jackson himself.
[01:45:11.320 --> 01:45:25.640]  [SPEAKER_02]: If you believe in free speech on the air, on the FM dial in New York, please show your support now for WBAI at 212-279-3400.
[01:45:53.030 --> 01:46:01.730]  [SPEAKER_02]: We're speaking with Steve Jackson, who is the founder, owner, and president of Steve Jackson Games in Austin, Texas.
[01:46:02.210 --> 01:46:02.810]  [SPEAKER_02]: Steve, good evening.
[01:46:03.350 --> 01:46:03.830]  [SPEAKER_20]: Good evening.
[01:46:04.390 --> 01:46:18.550]  [SPEAKER_02]: You had quite a bit of a hassle over the past year with the Secret Service and a whole big case that concerned computer hackers and all kinds of alleged conspiracies.
[01:46:18.550 --> 01:46:22.670]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, first of all, could you tell us what exactly is Steve Jackson Games?
[01:46:23.150 --> 01:46:29.590]  [SPEAKER_24]: We publish role-playing games and board games and magazines about games.
[01:46:29.650 --> 01:46:32.010]  [SPEAKER_24]: We do not publish computer games.
[01:46:32.330 --> 01:46:35.750]  [SPEAKER_24]: That's one of the errors that keeps getting into the press reports.
[01:46:36.490 --> 01:46:38.730]  [SPEAKER_24]: Everything that we produce is printed on paper.
[01:46:40.010 --> 01:46:40.570]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[01:46:40.710 --> 01:46:43.690]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, we'll get back to that, I guess, in a few minutes.
[01:46:43.690 --> 01:46:51.070]  [SPEAKER_02]: But why don't you start by telling us what exactly happened to you last year with as many specific dates as possible.
[01:46:51.430 --> 01:46:54.710]  [SPEAKER_02]: I believe it was just about a little over a year ago that things started happening.
[01:46:55.130 --> 01:46:58.930]  [SPEAKER_24]: Yes, actually 14 or 15 months now.
[01:46:59.130 --> 01:47:00.770]  [SPEAKER_24]: This happened on March 1st.
[01:47:00.930 --> 01:47:08.290]  [SPEAKER_24]: What happened was that early in the morning, my offices were invaded by agents of the United States Secret Service.
[01:47:08.290 --> 01:47:11.050]  [SPEAKER_24]: They had sort of a search warrant.
[01:47:11.530 --> 01:47:18.070]  [SPEAKER_24]: The copy that they left us didn't have a judge's signature, and most of the blanks on it weren't filled in.
[01:47:18.270 --> 01:47:21.210]  [SPEAKER_24]: But nobody here wanted to argue with them.
[01:47:21.610 --> 01:47:24.170]  [SPEAKER_24]: They spent several hours going through the building.
[01:47:25.050 --> 01:47:26.730]  [SPEAKER_24]: They went through desks.
[01:47:26.850 --> 01:47:28.570]  [SPEAKER_24]: They tore open boxes in the warehouse.
[01:47:28.990 --> 01:47:31.550]  [SPEAKER_24]: They forced open file cabinets and lockers.
[01:47:31.710 --> 01:47:34.890]  [SPEAKER_24]: They used bolt cutters to take the locks off our storage units.
[01:47:34.890 --> 01:47:38.630]  [SPEAKER_24]: While the employee with the keys stood there offering to open them for them.
[01:47:38.910 --> 01:47:40.870]  [SPEAKER_24]: And so on and so on and so on.
[01:47:41.950 --> 01:47:44.190]  [SPEAKER_24]: They pretty well tore things up around here.
[01:47:44.510 --> 01:47:47.050]  [SPEAKER_24]: When they left, they took three of our computers.
[01:47:47.310 --> 01:47:48.850]  [SPEAKER_24]: They took a laser printer.
[01:47:49.370 --> 01:47:55.390]  [SPEAKER_24]: They took a lot of assorted hardware and lots and lots and lots of disks and papers and business data.
[01:47:55.790 --> 01:48:03.790]  [SPEAKER_24]: And in particular, they took every current copy on either paper or disk of the new book that we were about to send to the printer.
[01:48:04.510 --> 01:48:10.270]  [SPEAKER_24]: At the same time they were doing this, they were raiding the home of my managing editor who wrote that book.
[01:48:10.470 --> 01:48:15.510]  [SPEAKER_24]: They took his computer, his laser printer, and every copy of the manuscript that he had.
[01:48:16.690 --> 01:48:22.390]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, throughout all of this, were you given an explanation as to just what exactly was going on?
[01:48:22.390 --> 01:48:36.710]  [SPEAKER_24]: The only explanation that they would give was to point to the warrant which had some vague language in it about investigation of computer crime.
[01:48:37.730 --> 01:48:40.110]  [SPEAKER_24]: Other than that, they wouldn't comment.
[01:48:40.570 --> 01:48:50.070]  [SPEAKER_24]: When people called our office on the phone during the time they were there, the agents who were answering the phone were not informative at all.
[01:48:50.210 --> 01:48:55.270]  [SPEAKER_24]: They would do things like pick up the phone and say, call back later, and hang up again.
[01:48:56.990 --> 01:48:59.010]  [SPEAKER_02]: How long did this whole process take?
[01:48:59.310 --> 01:49:00.690]  [SPEAKER_24]: They were in there for several hours.
[01:49:02.750 --> 01:49:06.090]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, can you describe for us the aftermath of that one day?
[01:49:06.670 --> 01:49:13.830]  [SPEAKER_24]: Well, yeah, we're still going through the aftermath, but taking it a step at a time.
[01:49:15.750 --> 01:49:29.670]  [SPEAKER_24]: As soon as I had some idea of what was really happening, I called a lawyer here in town who does our trademark work, and I told them, you're not going to believe this, but the Secret Service is raiding my office.
[01:49:30.670 --> 01:49:33.650]  [SPEAKER_24]: Can you put me in touch with somebody who knows about things like this?
[01:49:33.650 --> 01:49:33.690]  [SPEAKER_24]: Yes.
[01:49:34.690 --> 01:49:41.630]  [SPEAKER_24]: And they got me in touch with an attorney in Dallas who specialized in federal criminal procedure.
[01:49:42.870 --> 01:49:53.190]  [SPEAKER_24]: And he called the Secret Service and talked to them and notified them that among the things that they had scooped up was data that we had to have in order to stay in business.
[01:49:54.370 --> 01:49:59.530]  [SPEAKER_24]: And the attorney asked if we could get copies of our material, and the Secret Service told them yes.
[01:49:59.530 --> 01:50:14.470]  [SPEAKER_24]: So the next morning, I'm down at the Austin office of the Secret Service with a big box of blank disks and with an attorney accompanying me, and it was a very interesting experience.
[01:50:14.470 --> 01:50:16.790]  [SPEAKER_24]: I did not get very many files back.
[01:50:17.270 --> 01:50:21.090]  [SPEAKER_24]: They let me have two disks' worth of files.
[01:50:21.610 --> 01:50:29.690]  [SPEAKER_24]: I was not allowed to make any copies myself of the machines that they had down there of ours.
[01:50:29.690 --> 01:50:33.610]  [SPEAKER_24]: I was only allowed to have copies from one of the machines.
[01:50:33.630 --> 01:50:37.730]  [SPEAKER_24]: The others, they just refused to consider making any copies from.
[01:50:37.970 --> 01:50:39.210]  [SPEAKER_51]: Did they say why?
[01:50:39.950 --> 01:50:41.310]  [SPEAKER_24]: This might be evidence.
[01:50:42.490 --> 01:50:45.230]  [SPEAKER_24]: Which doesn't make any sense, but that's what they said.
[01:50:45.370 --> 01:50:48.110]  [SPEAKER_02]: Was there anything different about those particular files?
[01:50:48.790 --> 01:50:53.250]  [SPEAKER_24]: Well, they were all different machines used for different purposes.
[01:50:53.250 --> 01:50:59.570]  [SPEAKER_24]: One of the machines that they took, one of the computers, was our bulletin board system, our electronic BBS.
[01:51:00.290 --> 01:51:05.890]  [SPEAKER_24]: And they refused to let me have any copies of anything off that.
[01:51:06.090 --> 01:51:08.510]  [SPEAKER_02]: And what kind of things were going on on the bulletin board?
[01:51:08.850 --> 01:51:17.810]  [SPEAKER_24]: This bulletin board was used to discuss our games, both the ones that were already out and games that were in progress.
[01:51:18.570 --> 01:51:29.390]  [SPEAKER_24]: In particular, one file on there that I really needed was a file of playtester comments on the GURP Cyberpunk game, which is the one that they confiscated all the copies of.
[01:51:29.750 --> 01:51:39.150]  [SPEAKER_24]: It would have been a lot easier to reconstruct the book, which is what we eventually had to do, was reconstruct it, if we had been able to get the copies of the playtester comments.
[01:51:39.990 --> 01:51:41.530]  [SPEAKER_24]: But they wouldn't let us have those.
[01:51:41.530 --> 01:51:52.490]  [SPEAKER_24]: All the copies that I was allowed to have after that session were copies that were made by a secret service agent who did not know how to use computers.
[01:51:53.070 --> 01:52:05.090]  [SPEAKER_24]: He sat there at the keyboard, and he would ask me what commands to type in in order to look at things and get the copies made.
[01:52:05.090 --> 01:52:06.510]  [SPEAKER_24]: I would tell him the command.
[01:52:06.750 --> 01:52:14.050]  [SPEAKER_24]: Then he would holler across the room to another agent, who apparently understood computers, to see if the instruction was alright.
[01:52:14.550 --> 01:52:18.530]  [SPEAKER_24]: And the other guy would say, yeah, sure, and then this guy would type something in.
[01:52:18.690 --> 01:52:20.610]  [SPEAKER_51]: What kind of commands are we talking about here?
[01:52:20.790 --> 01:52:24.230]  [SPEAKER_24]: Oh, we're talking about saying, type D-I-R to get a directory.
[01:52:25.610 --> 01:52:29.350]  [SPEAKER_51]: And he would shout across the room D-I-R to make sure that that was a proper command.
[01:52:29.350 --> 01:52:29.770]  [SPEAKER_24]: Right.
[01:52:30.130 --> 01:52:32.650]  [SPEAKER_24]: And the other guy would say, yeah, sure.
[01:52:32.830 --> 01:52:34.530]  [SPEAKER_24]: And then this guy would type D-I-R.
[01:52:34.990 --> 01:52:37.710]  [SPEAKER_24]: And then nothing would happen because he hadn't entered return.
[01:52:38.070 --> 01:52:39.590]  [SPEAKER_24]: So I would say, now hit return.
[01:52:40.010 --> 01:52:42.310]  [SPEAKER_24]: He would say, he wants me to hit return!
[01:52:43.290 --> 01:52:45.550]  [SPEAKER_24]: The other agent would say, yeah, yeah, hit return.
[01:52:45.690 --> 01:52:47.990]  [SPEAKER_24]: And then he'd hit return, and then the directory would come up.
[01:52:48.270 --> 01:52:49.330]  [SPEAKER_24]: And it was like this.
[01:52:50.190 --> 01:52:55.550]  [SPEAKER_24]: I mean, just every file that I wanted had to be made with this kind of process.
[01:52:56.290 --> 01:52:57.930]  [SPEAKER_51]: So how long were you down there for?
[01:52:57.930 --> 01:52:59.290]  [SPEAKER_24]: About an hour and a half.
[01:52:59.430 --> 01:53:00.970]  [SPEAKER_24]: That was all the time they'd let me have.
[01:53:01.250 --> 01:53:07.430]  [SPEAKER_24]: They said that after that, it had to be flown to Chicago where the experts could look at it.
[01:53:08.050 --> 01:53:10.470]  [SPEAKER_51]: Who apparently knew how to type D-I-R and hit return.
[01:53:11.250 --> 01:53:19.450]  [SPEAKER_02]: Can you describe, from the beginning, what was the level of competence of the agents, the agents who rated you?
[01:53:19.510 --> 01:53:22.450]  [SPEAKER_02]: You've already described the agents that were processing the data.
[01:53:23.550 --> 01:53:25.590]  [SPEAKER_02]: Was it pretty consistent like this?
[01:53:25.590 --> 01:53:27.950]  [SPEAKER_24]: Well, I'm not an expert on raids.
[01:53:29.530 --> 01:53:30.010]  These...
[01:53:32.930 --> 01:53:42.170]  [SPEAKER_24]: I have been told by other people that, based on the description of the way they went through the building, this is what you would expect from a drug bust.
[01:53:43.330 --> 01:53:44.050]  [SPEAKER_51]: How so?
[01:53:44.050 --> 01:53:46.890]  [SPEAKER_24]: But I've never been through a drug bust either.
[01:53:47.130 --> 01:53:49.270]  [SPEAKER_51]: Well, can you describe...
[01:53:49.270 --> 01:54:04.710]  [SPEAKER_24]: Well, just in terms of hostility to the people who they wouldn't let in the building, in terms of tearing up the premises, in terms of just carting away loads and loads of stuff that they didn't need.
[01:54:05.610 --> 01:54:06.150]  [SPEAKER_51]: Uh-huh.
[01:54:06.250 --> 01:54:07.230]  [SPEAKER_51]: Did they take your telephone?
[01:54:07.850 --> 01:54:09.330]  [SPEAKER_24]: No, they didn't take the telephone.
[01:54:10.050 --> 01:54:14.950]  [SPEAKER_24]: I understand that other people who were raided in the same series had telephones and tape recorders taken.
[01:54:15.130 --> 01:54:16.690]  [SPEAKER_24]: They did take our laser printer.
[01:54:16.990 --> 01:54:17.530]  [SPEAKER_51]: I see.
[01:54:17.810 --> 01:54:20.670]  [SPEAKER_24]: There was one theory that they thought they could read the ribbon on it.
[01:54:23.630 --> 01:54:27.290]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, when you were asking them, well, what's going on here?
[01:54:27.330 --> 01:54:29.410]  [SPEAKER_02]: Did they come up with any particular ridiculous scenario?
[01:54:29.410 --> 01:54:38.570]  [SPEAKER_02]: I know in some particular cases, they would accuse the people of having caused the AT&T network to crash and moving satellites around in the sky.
[01:54:38.570 --> 01:54:42.290]  [SPEAKER_02]: Did they have any kind of scenario like that for you?
[01:54:42.690 --> 01:54:44.530]  [SPEAKER_24]: Not that they would give us at the time.
[01:54:44.530 --> 01:54:53.410]  [SPEAKER_24]: There was some really ridiculous stuff in the warrant, in the application that they filed with the judge in order to get their search warrant on us.
[01:54:53.590 --> 01:54:55.050]  [SPEAKER_24]: But all that was sealed.
[01:54:55.290 --> 01:54:57.370]  [SPEAKER_24]: Nobody saw that for many months afterwards.
[01:54:57.750 --> 01:54:58.770]  [SPEAKER_51]: But you did see that.
[01:54:58.870 --> 01:55:00.530]  [SPEAKER_51]: What was in it when you did see it?
[01:55:01.290 --> 01:55:18.530]  [SPEAKER_24]: It contained the same kind of allegations that they made against Craig Neidorf that were just exploded at his trial, talking about the 911 file as though it were a program, which it's not, and as though it were worth a great deal of money, which it's not,
[01:55:18.910 --> 01:55:26.650]  [SPEAKER_24]: and just in general trying to make a huge, frightening hacker conspiracy out of nothing.
[01:55:30.170 --> 01:55:33.990]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, have you had experiences with computer hackers before?
[01:55:34.130 --> 01:55:39.030]  [SPEAKER_02]: And if so, how do you compare them to what the agents were alleging?
[01:55:39.670 --> 01:55:49.730]  [SPEAKER_24]: Well, what the agents actually did was like, but worse, what the agents say hackers do.
[01:55:49.730 --> 01:56:03.370]  [SPEAKER_24]: I mean, the scare stories that they tell are that if hackers get into your system, they might damage your hardware and destroy files and keep you from being able to use your system for a long time.
[01:56:04.310 --> 01:56:06.070]  [SPEAKER_24]: That's what they say about hackers.
[01:56:06.350 --> 01:56:14.030]  [SPEAKER_24]: But what the Secret Service agents did to me was damage my hardware, destroy my files, and keep me from using the systems for a long time.
[01:56:15.250 --> 01:56:18.690]  [SPEAKER_24]: So I think I got hacked, but I got hacked by the Secret Service.
[01:56:18.690 --> 01:56:21.410]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's rather a rude awakening.
[01:56:21.850 --> 01:56:25.190]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, you're suing the Secret Service.
[01:56:25.390 --> 01:56:30.070]  [SPEAKER_02]: So can you describe to us what exactly is involved in that?
[01:56:30.230 --> 01:56:32.730]  [SPEAKER_02]: What are you trying to get back from them?
[01:56:33.230 --> 01:56:35.910]  [SPEAKER_02]: And what is it that they have taken from you?
[01:56:36.370 --> 01:56:44.110]  [SPEAKER_24]: Well, they have never returned either all of the files or all of the hardware that they took.
[01:56:44.490 --> 01:56:46.850]  [SPEAKER_24]: They claim that they have, but that's not true.
[01:56:48.710 --> 01:56:56.390]  [SPEAKER_24]: Some of the equipment that they returned to us when they finally got around to giving us anything back was badly damaged.
[01:56:56.710 --> 01:57:00.390]  [SPEAKER_24]: Of the three computers that they took, one was just destroyed.
[01:57:00.730 --> 01:57:02.590]  [SPEAKER_24]: I mean, it's not usable.
[01:57:02.990 --> 01:57:06.110]  [SPEAKER_24]: Another one was damaged, but we spent some money and got it fixed.
[01:57:08.890 --> 01:57:10.490]  [SPEAKER_24]: Please tell them I'll call them back.
[01:57:10.850 --> 01:57:11.730]  [SPEAKER_24]: Yeah, sorry.
[01:57:13.190 --> 01:57:14.070]  [SPEAKER_24]: Let's see.
[01:57:14.230 --> 01:57:21.010]  [SPEAKER_24]: The complaint itself is filed under several different laws.
[01:57:25.070 --> 01:57:25.750]  [SPEAKER_24]: And essentially,
[01:57:29.840 --> 01:57:36.200]  [SPEAKER_24]: well, I've got a copy of the complaint in front of me, but I'm trying to get through enough of the legalese.
[01:57:37.800 --> 01:57:40.640]  [SPEAKER_24]: Well, okay, just from memory.
[01:57:40.900 --> 01:57:54.220]  [SPEAKER_24]: It's filed under the First Amendment because they closed down a bulletin board system which interfered with freedom of speech here.
[01:57:54.460 --> 01:57:59.380]  [SPEAKER_24]: It interfered both with my freedom of speech and with the freedom of speech of the users of the BBS.
[01:57:59.380 --> 01:58:02.960]  [SPEAKER_24]: And some of the users of the board are joining us in this complaint.
[01:58:03.220 --> 01:58:05.700]  [SPEAKER_51]: Now, did their action violate the ECPA?
[01:58:06.600 --> 01:58:11.520]  [SPEAKER_24]: Yes, it also violated the ECPA, and we are also suing them under the ECPA.
[01:58:11.520 --> 01:58:14.440]  [SPEAKER_24]: That's the Electronic Communications Privacy Act.
[01:58:14.980 --> 01:58:20.740]  [SPEAKER_24]: And that essentially says, thou shalt not mess with electronic communications.
[01:58:21.140 --> 01:58:23.000]  [SPEAKER_24]: Thou shalt not steal email.
[01:58:24.560 --> 01:58:32.420]  [SPEAKER_24]: And when they took away the BBS, they deprived a lot of the users of their unread electronic mail.
[01:58:32.580 --> 01:58:37.700]  [SPEAKER_02]: And if nothing else, if they do seize electronic mail, they're required to notify the people, are they not?
[01:58:37.900 --> 01:58:38.480]  [SPEAKER_24]: That's right.
[01:58:38.640 --> 01:58:39.220]  [SPEAKER_02]: And they never did.
[01:58:39.220 --> 01:58:39.960]  [SPEAKER_24]: That's right.
[01:58:40.200 --> 01:58:43.240]  [SPEAKER_24]: They didn't follow any of the procedures that they should have followed.
[01:58:44.880 --> 01:59:00.580]  [SPEAKER_24]: They are being sued under the Fourth Amendment as well, which is unreasonable search and seizure, because the grounds under which they raided us were grossly improper.
[01:59:00.980 --> 01:59:06.320]  [SPEAKER_24]: They didn't have anything like probable cause to come into this office and search for evidence.
[01:59:06.960 --> 01:59:10.400]  [SPEAKER_24]: And the warrant was incredibly overbroad.
[01:59:10.660 --> 01:59:23.400]  [SPEAKER_24]: The way the warrant was written, it essentially said, you can go into this office and take any computer, or anything that has anything to do with computers, or any business record that has anything to do with the purchase of computers.
[01:59:24.540 --> 01:59:27.680]  [SPEAKER_24]: And there were a few other things in there, but that's the high point.
[01:59:30.480 --> 01:59:37.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, has there been a lawsuit like this in the past against a governmental agency for such a thing?
[01:59:37.140 --> 01:59:40.620]  [SPEAKER_24]: No, this one is going to be precedent-setting.
[01:59:40.980 --> 01:59:47.790]  [SPEAKER_24]: It really is, as far as I know, the first of its kind.
[01:59:47.990 --> 01:59:55.990]  [SPEAKER_24]: There have been cases before where a bulletin board operator was harassed unreasonably, but none of them have been federal cases.
[01:59:59.610 --> 02:00:07.370]  [SPEAKER_51]: Now, your book, GURPS Cyberpunk, as you mentioned before, was affected greatly by this.
[02:00:07.470 --> 02:00:09.550]  [SPEAKER_02]: They seized the copies and you had to reconstruct it.
[02:00:09.710 --> 02:00:09.950]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[02:00:10.110 --> 02:00:12.710]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, that was eventually put out.
[02:00:12.830 --> 02:00:18.750]  [SPEAKER_02]: Would you say that the book itself has been put out the way you want it to be put out, finally?
[02:00:19.990 --> 02:00:21.230]  [SPEAKER_24]: Pretty much, I think.
[02:00:21.370 --> 02:00:29.310]  [SPEAKER_24]: If we ever get back all the missing files, then we'll be able to see, okay, what did we forget about the second time when we redid it?
[02:00:29.690 --> 02:00:32.950]  [SPEAKER_24]: And what did we think of that we might not have thought of the first time?
[02:00:33.270 --> 02:00:38.310]  [SPEAKER_24]: And it'll be interesting to see at that point, even though it'll be like looking at ancient history.
[02:00:38.710 --> 02:00:39.110]  [SPEAKER_20]: Uh-huh.
[02:00:39.210 --> 02:00:42.710]  [SPEAKER_24]: We did get the book out, and it did get good reactions.
[02:00:42.710 --> 02:00:51.190]  [SPEAKER_24]: It was six weeks late when it came out, and that six weeks had a domino effect on our schedule and our budget that really hurt us.
[02:00:52.470 --> 02:00:54.670]  [SPEAKER_24]: But the book's out, and it's a good one.
[02:00:54.670 --> 02:01:04.690]  [SPEAKER_24]: It has been nominated for the best role-playing supplement of the year, and we'll know it July 4th weekend is when those awards are announced.
[02:01:04.910 --> 02:01:06.110]  [SPEAKER_24]: So then we'll know if it won.
[02:01:06.290 --> 02:01:07.110]  [SPEAKER_24]: But it's a good book.
[02:01:07.990 --> 02:01:09.070]  [SPEAKER_24]: I'm pleased with it.
[02:01:09.070 --> 02:01:23.710]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, when this first began happening, the first press, I guess you would say, or the first mention, the first words of outrage came from the hacker community, the BBS community.
[02:01:23.950 --> 02:01:32.530]  [SPEAKER_02]: It was passed around on the Internet, and the same words of horror were expressed towards the other cases.
[02:01:32.530 --> 02:01:37.370]  [SPEAKER_02]: You mentioned the Craig Neidorf case and a couple of other cases that were happening at the same time.
[02:01:37.370 --> 02:01:41.770]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, this eventually got into printed media.
[02:01:41.930 --> 02:01:45.410]  [SPEAKER_02]: It led to the formation of the Electronic Frontier Foundation.
[02:01:46.130 --> 02:01:50.310]  [SPEAKER_02]: Is that a correct interpretation in your view?
[02:01:50.910 --> 02:01:51.430]  [SPEAKER_24]: Yes.
[02:01:51.690 --> 02:02:02.090]  [SPEAKER_24]: I don't think that my case was the only one that inspired the creation of the EFF, because there are a lot of abuses out there, and they're addressing a lot of different abuses.
[02:02:02.270 --> 02:02:03.670]  [SPEAKER_24]: But this was certainly one of them.
[02:02:03.950 --> 02:02:08.390]  [SPEAKER_24]: The EFF certainly came into being at the right time to help me.
[02:02:08.390 --> 02:02:17.890]  [SPEAKER_24]: I'm sure that I would not have gotten my hardware back if the EFF had not appeared, because it was very funny, really.
[02:02:18.270 --> 02:02:36.670]  [SPEAKER_24]: After months of stonewalling and promising falsely that we'd have our equipment back immediately, the Secret Service suddenly popped up and returned it just a few days after it leaked to the press that the EFF was going to be taking an interest in my case.
[02:02:38.550 --> 02:02:54.970]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, before this had happened to you, had you been aware of the series of Secret Service raids that have been taking place over the last few years, and prior to that, FBI raids on suspected computer hackers or bulletin boards that might contain messages about computer hacking?
[02:02:54.970 --> 02:02:56.590]  [SPEAKER_24]: Only peripherally.
[02:02:56.890 --> 02:03:11.370]  [SPEAKER_24]: I had been a system operator for a long time of a BBS, so I had an interest in sysop rights and sysop responsibilities, but I certainly never thought it was going to come that close to home.
[02:03:12.550 --> 02:03:20.590]  [SPEAKER_02]: So has your view on the entire world of cyberspace changed now?
[02:03:20.590 --> 02:03:23.010]  [SPEAKER_24]: Yes, very much so.
[02:03:25.930 --> 02:03:45.230]  [SPEAKER_24]: I'm now very painfully aware that law enforcement as a whole has not kept up with technology, that there are some law enforcement people out there who are very, very skilled, very knowledgeable, and their voice is crying in the wilderness looking for improvement,
[02:03:45.250 --> 02:03:54.850]  [SPEAKER_24]: that there are other law enforcement agents out there who don't understand the technology, don't want to understand it, they're afraid of it, and they're afraid of anyone who is a master of it.
[02:03:57.310 --> 02:03:59.470]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now why do you see that as the case?
[02:03:59.490 --> 02:04:01.650]  [SPEAKER_02]: Is it simply because they don't understand the technology?
[02:04:02.530 --> 02:04:03.090]  [SPEAKER_24]: Yes.
[02:04:04.090 --> 02:04:12.750]  [SPEAKER_24]: It's very easy to fear something that you don't understand, especially when it's something as potentially powerful as this.
[02:04:13.150 --> 02:04:20.230]  [SPEAKER_24]: So if you're a law enforcement agent and you don't understand computer technology, then you're going to believe everything that you hear.
[02:04:20.610 --> 02:04:26.990]  [SPEAKER_24]: If someone tells you hackers can listen into your phone conversations, they'll believe it.
[02:04:27.150 --> 02:04:32.050]  [SPEAKER_24]: If they say hackers can move satellites around, you believe it.
[02:04:32.510 --> 02:04:36.050]  [SPEAKER_24]: Hackers are going to close down the 911 system, you believe it.
[02:04:36.370 --> 02:04:46.090]  [SPEAKER_24]: Hackers are going to turn the moon into spam, and then they're going to drop it on New York, and you believe it, because you don't know what these wicked hackers can do.
[02:04:46.330 --> 02:04:52.530]  [SPEAKER_24]: But you know that computers are very powerful, and you don't know anything about them, so you think these guys are wizards.
[02:04:52.530 --> 02:04:54.350]  [SPEAKER_24]: You believe any story that you hear.
[02:04:54.950 --> 02:05:01.950]  [SPEAKER_24]: And then these fellows go around, and they meet, and they swap terrible stories, and they convince each other of all this nonsense.
[02:05:02.770 --> 02:05:13.770]  [SPEAKER_24]: And the real computer crackers, and the wannabe computer crackers, even worse, just feed this, because they tell stories about the things they can do.
[02:05:14.050 --> 02:05:26.010]  [SPEAKER_24]: And if you're a 14-year-old computer whiz, you might think it's real funny to get on a bulletin board and say, yes, I can turn the moon into spam, and tomorrow my buddies and I are going to do it.
[02:05:26.510 --> 02:05:37.270]  [SPEAKER_24]: And if you know that there's a G-man on the board, a Secret Service agent, who believes all this stuff, you think that's real funny, because it is real funny.
[02:05:37.410 --> 02:05:40.690]  [SPEAKER_24]: You're pulling this great con on the cops.
[02:05:41.170 --> 02:05:48.810]  [SPEAKER_24]: Except it isn't so funny when they believe it, and they raid your house with their guns out, and they say, we're going to confiscate your computers and your spam.
[02:05:50.910 --> 02:06:08.530]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, short of the kind of first-hand knowledge that you've had with the whole process and the lack of understanding of technology on the part of government agents, how can the average person become educated as to what's really going on?
[02:06:11.470 --> 02:06:12.530]  [SPEAKER_24]: That's a hard one.
[02:06:14.150 --> 02:06:17.410]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I mean, is reading a newspaper, is that enough?
[02:06:17.450 --> 02:06:20.210]  [SPEAKER_02]: Is listening to the radio enough, or should people be doing more?
[02:06:20.570 --> 02:06:24.690]  [SPEAKER_24]: Well, the best way, if you're really interested, is to get online yourself.
[02:06:25.150 --> 02:06:32.350]  [SPEAKER_24]: Get a computer, get a modem, tap into bulletin boards, if you...
[02:06:33.070 --> 02:06:34.630]  [SPEAKER_51]: Which is not illegal, by the way.
[02:06:34.730 --> 02:06:40.890]  [SPEAKER_02]: A lot of people seem to think that every time you tap into something electronically, you're about to commit some kind of a crime.
[02:06:40.890 --> 02:06:42.790]  [SPEAKER_24]: Well, that's what they're for.
[02:06:43.790 --> 02:06:49.210]  [SPEAKER_24]: There are lots and lots and lots of public bulletin boards for all kinds of special interests.
[02:06:49.530 --> 02:06:52.470]  [SPEAKER_24]: And if you don't see the one you want, you can start it yourself.
[02:06:52.890 --> 02:06:58.430]  [SPEAKER_24]: Bulletin boards are the greatest thing for freedom of speech and communication since the invention of the photocopier.
[02:06:58.690 --> 02:07:09.110]  [SPEAKER_24]: They make everyone not only into their own publisher, but they let everyone set up an open forum where other people can discuss.
[02:07:09.110 --> 02:07:10.670]  [SPEAKER_24]: It's really wonderful.
[02:07:10.950 --> 02:07:17.190]  [SPEAKER_24]: I mean, bulletin boards let everybody talk to everybody about everything, about anything they want to.
[02:07:17.790 --> 02:07:39.790]  [SPEAKER_24]: There's no way that government or corporations or anybody else, I mean, whatever your favorite evil conspiracy is, there's no way that your favorite evil conspiracy can manage the news because when everyone is tied into the net, when everyone is talking with people all over the world on bulletin boards via modems,
[02:07:41.090 --> 02:07:43.310]  [SPEAKER_24]: that's where you can find out what's happening.
[02:07:45.770 --> 02:07:52.030]  [SPEAKER_51]: We've been speaking with Steve Jackson, who is the president, owner, founder of Steve Jackson Games.
[02:07:52.330 --> 02:07:57.610]  [SPEAKER_02]: Steve, you mentioned earlier that you're not a computer game publisher.
[02:07:57.890 --> 02:08:00.790]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, you've been called that in the press many times.
[02:08:00.790 --> 02:08:02.170]  [SPEAKER_02]: Is there a reason why?
[02:08:02.390 --> 02:08:05.750]  [SPEAKER_02]: And also, why do you feel it's important to make that distinction?
[02:08:07.750 --> 02:08:12.710]  [SPEAKER_24]: It started, I think, just from one error.
[02:08:13.290 --> 02:08:19.970]  [SPEAKER_24]: The reporter for my local paper just got it wrong when he wrote the first report about it.
[02:08:20.970 --> 02:08:27.810]  [SPEAKER_24]: Apparently, he thought we were a computer game publisher because the book GURP Cyberpunk had something to do with computers.
[02:08:28.490 --> 02:08:36.050]  [SPEAKER_24]: And it was a natural error, but then the Associated Press picked it up from him, and then USA Today picks it up from Associated Press.
[02:08:36.370 --> 02:08:41.690]  [SPEAKER_24]: And the next thing you know, it's one of these things that everybody believes because they have seen it in the paper.
[02:08:42.950 --> 02:08:54.630]  [SPEAKER_24]: And I think that it's important mostly just because it's such a great example of how once a false fact gets into the media, it's so difficult to get it out.
[02:08:54.630 --> 02:08:57.710]  [SPEAKER_24]: It doesn't really have any bearing on the case at all.
[02:08:57.970 --> 02:09:05.370]  [SPEAKER_24]: What the Secret Service did would have been just as bad, no more and no less bad, if I had been a computer game publisher.
[02:09:05.790 --> 02:09:10.050]  [SPEAKER_24]: The interesting thing is that it could have happened to any company.
[02:09:13.470 --> 02:09:16.090]  [SPEAKER_24]: It wasn't even necessary that I be a publisher.
[02:09:16.750 --> 02:09:20.670]  [SPEAKER_24]: For instance, let's say that you run an auto parts store.
[02:09:20.890 --> 02:09:23.790]  [SPEAKER_24]: Well, you have a computer in your auto parts store.
[02:09:23.790 --> 02:09:26.010]  [SPEAKER_24]: You can't keep track of your stock without it.
[02:09:28.430 --> 02:09:34.730]  [SPEAKER_24]: And let's say that the police suspect one of your employees of, say, being a bookie.
[02:09:35.070 --> 02:09:37.570]  [SPEAKER_24]: Some nice, old-fashioned crime.
[02:09:41.210 --> 02:10:04.550]  [SPEAKER_24]: And if this case goes the wrong way, we might find out that the police have a perfect right to come and confiscate the computer in your auto parts store just to see if by some chance the man who was suspected of being a bookie had left any incriminating information on it.
[02:10:04.790 --> 02:10:13.770]  [SPEAKER_24]: And that's just the same as getting a warrant to come and take away every file cabinet in your office just because the man might have put a piece of paper in there.
[02:10:14.570 --> 02:10:23.210]  [SPEAKER_24]: But it doesn't necessarily look that way to law enforcement people who are not used to thinking of a computer as everything that it is.
[02:10:23.750 --> 02:10:31.590]  [SPEAKER_24]: And I got way off the question there because the original question was, why does it make a difference that I'm not a computer game thing?
[02:10:31.590 --> 02:10:33.430]  [SPEAKER_24]: It doesn't make a difference to the case.
[02:10:33.590 --> 02:10:36.410]  [SPEAKER_24]: It makes a difference because I'm interested in the media.
[02:10:36.410 --> 02:10:38.210]  [SPEAKER_24]: I'm interested in getting the facts right.
[02:10:38.390 --> 02:10:44.290]  [SPEAKER_24]: And it drives me crazy when I see a mistake repeated over and over again.
[02:10:45.270 --> 02:10:47.530]  [SPEAKER_51]: Well, at least they're spelling your name right.
[02:10:49.610 --> 02:10:53.550]  [SPEAKER_51]: I know Craig Neidorf is taking issue with that particular case.
[02:10:54.630 --> 02:10:58.090]  [SPEAKER_24]: Yes, and then they always pronounce his name wrong too.
[02:10:58.390 --> 02:10:58.930]  [SPEAKER_02]: Of course.
[02:10:59.670 --> 02:11:03.930]  [SPEAKER_02]: Steve, how can people get involved in this if they want to help out?
[02:11:04.810 --> 02:11:12.630]  [SPEAKER_24]: Well, eventually the Electronic Frontier Foundation will be accepting memberships and donations.
[02:11:13.070 --> 02:11:15.010]  [SPEAKER_24]: They're not set up to do that yet.
[02:11:15.010 --> 02:11:23.250]  [SPEAKER_24]: The Electronic Frontier Foundation is essentially, if you'll pardon a quick and dirty comparison, it's a high-tech ACLU.
[02:11:23.790 --> 02:11:28.890]  [SPEAKER_24]: It's been set up to fight for civil liberties in the high-tech arena.
[02:11:30.030 --> 02:11:33.930]  [SPEAKER_24]: And it does have the full cooperation of the ACLU.
[02:11:34.030 --> 02:11:35.650]  [SPEAKER_24]: These are not competing groups.
[02:11:37.510 --> 02:11:43.650]  [SPEAKER_24]: The EFF is just taking computer and high-tech related cases and dealing with them.
[02:11:44.170 --> 02:11:55.690]  [SPEAKER_24]: So I would say read the papers, watch the net, and when you find out that the EFF has its tax papers finished, then join.
[02:11:57.130 --> 02:12:02.630]  [SPEAKER_24]: There's also a phone number that I will try to locate here while I'm talking.
[02:12:02.790 --> 02:12:03.230]  [SPEAKER_24]: Pardon me.
[02:12:03.410 --> 02:12:06.090]  [SPEAKER_24]: See if I can do two things at once and find this on my computer.
[02:12:06.310 --> 02:12:12.890]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I'll tell you what, since we're on tape, I'll have plenty of time to actually find that and I'll come on live right after this and tell that phone number.
[02:12:12.890 --> 02:12:13.490]  [SPEAKER_24]: Okay.
[02:12:13.710 --> 02:12:14.790]  [SPEAKER_24]: Sounds good.
[02:12:15.090 --> 02:12:16.150]  [SPEAKER_24]: Then forget I said this.
[02:12:16.370 --> 02:12:16.590]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[02:12:16.790 --> 02:12:25.390]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, you're going to be appearing, I guess, on various places, various conferences and things like that?
[02:12:25.750 --> 02:12:26.190]  [SPEAKER_24]: Yes.
[02:12:26.750 --> 02:12:28.770]  [SPEAKER_24]: I have a...
[02:12:28.770 --> 02:12:29.290]  [SPEAKER_24]: Okay.
[02:12:29.290 --> 02:12:35.950]  [SPEAKER_24]: I'm going to be at FIDOCON, which is a conference of bulletin board operators, in Boulder, Colorado, in a couple of months.
[02:12:36.590 --> 02:12:47.350]  [SPEAKER_24]: And I expect I will be coming to other computer-related conferences, as time and money allow, to talk about the case and to learn more about other people's cases.
[02:12:47.650 --> 02:12:57.690]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, let's hope that it remains news and let's hope that the people listening are becoming educated on the issues and when they see something on this, they'll ask plenty of questions.
[02:12:57.690 --> 02:12:58.730]  [SPEAKER_24]: I hope so.
[02:12:58.890 --> 02:13:00.150]  [SPEAKER_24]: It's an important case.
[02:13:01.590 --> 02:13:07.410]  [SPEAKER_24]: Computers are going to be more important in the next 20 years than anybody can imagine.
[02:13:07.690 --> 02:13:18.370]  [SPEAKER_24]: And we absolutely have to nail down the fact that all of our constitutional rights still apply, that the Constitution doesn't go away just because there's a computer in the room.
[02:13:20.190 --> 02:13:20.750]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[02:13:21.050 --> 02:13:22.890]  [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks very much for being with us tonight, Steve.
[02:13:23.090 --> 02:13:23.450]  [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.
[02:13:23.450 --> 02:13:27.510]  [SPEAKER_02]: Steve Jackson from Steve Jackson Games, here on WBAI.
[02:13:29.330 --> 02:13:44.050]  [SPEAKER_02]: And that interview was taped earlier tonight, and Steve Jackson has been through hell, fighting for his rights under the First Amendment, fighting for the right to keep his business afloat.
[02:13:44.510 --> 02:13:52.610]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I remember we were on here about a year ago, a little more than a year ago, talking to Steve Jackson when this first happened.
[02:13:53.250 --> 02:13:58.030]  [SPEAKER_02]: And we talked to Craig Neidorf when he was going through his problems.
[02:13:59.070 --> 02:14:12.450]  [SPEAKER_02]: And it's a scary thing, you know, because we in the computer hacker world, and Steve Jackson's not even in the computer hacker world, but we who follow the details, we're on the front line.
[02:14:12.850 --> 02:14:30.350]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, and it's something when you have goons from the Secret Service and other agencies coming and tearing down people's doors, taking electronic equipment, taking people's answering machines and telephones, and not knowing the first thing about technology,
[02:14:30.350 --> 02:14:42.170]  [SPEAKER_02]: just knowing that the people that they suspect of doing something are evil people, people that are the witches of the 1990s, people to be feared, people who are not understood.
[02:14:44.050 --> 02:14:49.690]  [SPEAKER_02]: And these are the folks that are going around implementing policies.
[02:14:50.850 --> 02:14:53.150]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's a really scary scenario.
[02:14:53.490 --> 02:14:54.710]  [SPEAKER_02]: A really scary scenario.
[02:14:55.190 --> 02:14:57.950]  [SPEAKER_02]: Thank God there is something positive coming out of this now.
[02:14:58.890 --> 02:15:11.330]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I am very happy, very pleased that people such as Steve Jackson and Craig Neidorf had the guts to stick it out and to fight because they knew they were right.
[02:15:11.970 --> 02:15:21.310]  [SPEAKER_02]: How many of us, how many of us have that same drive where we would stand up and fight something that is unjust?
[02:15:22.970 --> 02:15:24.070]  [SPEAKER_02]: You have to wonder.
[02:15:24.330 --> 02:15:26.550]  [SPEAKER_02]: You have to wonder how many people could actually do it.
[02:15:29.930 --> 02:15:35.630]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's something that's going to keep being updated here on this radio station.
[02:15:35.630 --> 02:15:45.050]  [SPEAKER_02]: And as promised, that phone number that we were going to give you for the Electronic Frontier Foundation is area code 617-864-1550.
[02:15:47.410 --> 02:15:48.390]  [SPEAKER_02]: Folks, it's important.
[02:15:48.810 --> 02:15:56.250]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's important that we all join hands and fight injustice whenever we see it.
[02:15:58.290 --> 02:16:06.510]  [SPEAKER_02]: And a lot of us don't understand the actual workings of technology.
[02:16:06.970 --> 02:16:10.030]  [SPEAKER_02]: We want to know what's a computer bulletin board anyway.
[02:16:10.710 --> 02:16:16.610]  [SPEAKER_02]: And basically, it's a gathering of people electronically.
[02:16:17.910 --> 02:16:20.230]  [SPEAKER_02]: We all need to go out there and do this.
[02:16:20.350 --> 02:16:21.790]  [SPEAKER_02]: We need to experience it.
[02:16:23.130 --> 02:16:23.610]  [SPEAKER_02]: Why?
[02:16:23.850 --> 02:16:28.530]  [SPEAKER_02]: Because this is something that's going to become more and more important as the years go by.
[02:16:28.830 --> 02:16:33.210]  [SPEAKER_02]: More and more things are going to become electronic rather than paper.
[02:16:33.450 --> 02:16:48.890]  [SPEAKER_02]: And if the First Amendment, and the right of freedom of speech, and the right of freedom of assembly, if that's not guaranteed electronically, you might as well say it's not going to be guaranteed at all.
[02:16:51.150 --> 02:16:52.750]  [SPEAKER_02]: So, folks, we need to hear from you.
[02:16:52.910 --> 02:16:59.350]  [SPEAKER_02]: We need to get some pledges coming in so we can continue to bring you things like this in the future.
[02:16:59.550 --> 02:17:03.130]  [SPEAKER_02]: Because the future is going to be...
[02:17:03.710 --> 02:17:06.210]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, interesting is a nice word.
[02:17:07.590 --> 02:17:09.250]  [SPEAKER_02]: Scary is a not-so-nice word.
[02:17:09.250 --> 02:17:11.430]  [SPEAKER_02]: There are changes happening.
[02:17:11.630 --> 02:17:18.890]  [SPEAKER_02]: There are people that want to make things different.
[02:17:20.230 --> 02:17:26.610]  [SPEAKER_02]: They want to shut down publications, bulletin boards, businesses.
[02:17:30.010 --> 02:17:31.530]  [SPEAKER_02]: And it's, uh...
[02:17:31.530 --> 02:17:35.650]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's scary to think of the power that they have to do just that.
[02:17:38.030 --> 02:17:40.190]  [SPEAKER_02]: Because that's, uh...
[02:17:40.190 --> 02:17:42.750]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's how a lot of the system works.
[02:17:43.410 --> 02:17:45.110]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, power is everything.
[02:17:45.290 --> 02:17:47.350]  [SPEAKER_02]: And if you have power, you can, uh...
[02:17:47.350 --> 02:17:50.950]  [SPEAKER_02]: Get around inconvenient things like, uh...
[02:17:50.950 --> 02:17:51.790]  [SPEAKER_02]: The Constitution.
[02:17:52.530 --> 02:17:53.810]  [SPEAKER_02]: And the First Amendment.
[02:17:55.670 --> 02:17:57.350]  [SPEAKER_02]: This is something that, uh...
[02:17:58.090 --> 02:18:00.150]  [SPEAKER_02]: We have strived to stand up for.
[02:18:00.570 --> 02:18:01.810]  [SPEAKER_02]: And to, uh...
[02:18:01.810 --> 02:18:03.550]  [SPEAKER_02]: To bring you...
[02:18:03.550 --> 02:18:05.810]  [SPEAKER_02]: Instances where...
[02:18:08.610 --> 02:18:10.250]  [SPEAKER_02]: Violations are reported.
[02:18:11.130 --> 02:18:12.350]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, how many, uh...
[02:18:12.350 --> 02:18:15.170]  [SPEAKER_02]: How many other places did you hear about Steve Jackson games?
[02:18:15.530 --> 02:18:16.150]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know?
[02:18:16.150 --> 02:18:19.430]  [SPEAKER_02]: This is something that we covered on WBAI throughout.
[02:18:19.990 --> 02:18:21.370]  [SPEAKER_02]: As it was happening.
[02:18:21.730 --> 02:18:23.770]  [SPEAKER_02]: And now as it's, uh...
[02:18:23.770 --> 02:18:24.870]  [SPEAKER_02]: As it's turning around.
[02:18:25.210 --> 02:18:27.650]  [SPEAKER_02]: As the victim is actually fighting back.
[02:18:30.610 --> 02:18:31.330]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now...
[02:18:31.330 --> 02:18:34.410]  [SPEAKER_02]: Had WBAI not been around for that...
[02:18:34.410 --> 02:18:37.450]  [SPEAKER_02]: It would have been one less...
[02:18:37.450 --> 02:18:40.970]  [SPEAKER_02]: One less stone to throw at the enemy.
[02:18:40.970 --> 02:18:42.430]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know?
[02:18:42.810 --> 02:18:44.510]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know?
[02:18:44.510 --> 02:18:45.350]  [SPEAKER_02]: Every...
[02:18:45.350 --> 02:18:47.570]  [SPEAKER_02]: Every bit of media attention...
[02:18:47.570 --> 02:18:48.630]  [SPEAKER_02]: Is important.
[02:18:49.750 --> 02:18:53.190]  [SPEAKER_02]: And the commercial media just does not understand...
[02:18:53.190 --> 02:18:54.550]  [SPEAKER_02]: How technology works.
[02:18:54.870 --> 02:18:57.130]  [SPEAKER_02]: Almost as much as, uh...
[02:18:57.130 --> 02:18:59.790]  [SPEAKER_02]: As government agents don't understand how much tech...
[02:18:59.790 --> 02:19:01.310]  [SPEAKER_02]: How, uh... technology actually works.
[02:19:01.730 --> 02:19:04.630]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's something that everybody has to be educated about.
[02:19:06.090 --> 02:19:08.650]  [SPEAKER_02]: And a lot of the, uh...
[02:19:09.170 --> 02:19:11.470]  [SPEAKER_02]: A lot of the pressures of, uh...
[02:19:11.470 --> 02:19:13.630]  [SPEAKER_02]: Of commercial radio and of, uh...
[02:19:15.330 --> 02:19:16.130]  [SPEAKER_02]: Corporate life...
[02:19:16.130 --> 02:19:18.010]  [SPEAKER_02]: Doesn't allow for a lot of, uh...
[02:19:18.010 --> 02:19:19.450]  [SPEAKER_02]: A lot of education to be going on.
[02:19:19.870 --> 02:19:21.690]  [SPEAKER_02]: Here at WBAI, we, uh...
[02:19:21.690 --> 02:19:22.030]  [SPEAKER_02]: We, uh...
[02:19:22.030 --> 02:19:23.070]  [SPEAKER_02]: We try to get the word out.
[02:19:23.150 --> 02:19:25.350]  [SPEAKER_02]: We try to educate people and explain things.
[02:19:26.350 --> 02:19:26.750]  [SPEAKER_02]: And...
[02:19:26.750 --> 02:19:28.750]  [SPEAKER_02]: Allow for lots and lots of questions.
[02:19:28.850 --> 02:19:31.170]  [SPEAKER_02]: We're gonna take some more phone calls in just a couple of minutes.
[02:19:31.330 --> 02:19:33.030]  [SPEAKER_02]: 212-279-3407.
[02:19:33.030 --> 02:19:33.430]  [SPEAKER_02]: But...
[02:19:33.930 --> 02:19:36.350]  [SPEAKER_02]: First, we'd like to see some activity on the pledge line.
[02:19:36.730 --> 02:19:37.890]  [SPEAKER_02]: Which is...
[02:19:37.890 --> 02:19:40.070]  [SPEAKER_02]: 212-279-3400.
[02:19:41.650 --> 02:19:42.690]  [SPEAKER_02]: Reason for this.
[02:19:42.690 --> 02:19:44.850]  [SPEAKER_02]: We're not just asking for money to, uh...
[02:19:44.850 --> 02:19:45.790]  [SPEAKER_02]: Line our pockets.
[02:19:46.650 --> 02:19:47.690]  [SPEAKER_02]: We, uh...
[02:19:47.690 --> 02:19:49.450]  [SPEAKER_02]: We don't line our pockets around here.
[02:19:49.730 --> 02:19:50.790]  [SPEAKER_02]: At least not with money.
[02:19:50.970 --> 02:19:53.270]  [SPEAKER_02]: We line it with, uh...
[02:19:53.270 --> 02:19:53.950]  [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know...
[02:19:53.950 --> 02:19:56.970]  [SPEAKER_02]: Leaflets and papers and notices and things like that.
[02:19:58.750 --> 02:20:00.430]  [SPEAKER_02]: Because we want to remain...
[02:20:01.170 --> 02:20:01.670]  [SPEAKER_02]: Informed.
[02:20:01.950 --> 02:20:02.450]  [SPEAKER_02]: Educated.
[02:20:10.130 --> 02:20:10.630]  [SPEAKER_02]: Solving...
[02:20:10.630 --> 02:20:13.470]  [SPEAKER_02]: Some nefarious scheme with computer hackers.
[02:20:19.920 --> 02:20:20.920]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's, uh...
[02:20:21.700 --> 02:20:24.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's something that you don't think will happen in this country.
[02:20:24.320 --> 02:20:24.860]  [SPEAKER_02]: But it does.
[02:20:25.460 --> 02:20:27.380]  [SPEAKER_02]: It does and it has to be changed.
[02:20:27.800 --> 02:20:29.780]  [SPEAKER_02]: But the only way it can be changed...
[02:20:29.780 --> 02:20:30.820]  [SPEAKER_02]: Is through education.
[02:20:31.040 --> 02:20:32.580]  [SPEAKER_02]: Through people knowing what they're talking about.
[02:20:32.580 --> 02:20:34.400]  [SPEAKER_02]: You have to know why...
[02:20:34.400 --> 02:20:35.600]  [SPEAKER_02]: You're standing up for something.
[02:20:35.780 --> 02:20:37.540]  [SPEAKER_02]: Why you're fighting for freedom of speech.
[02:20:37.640 --> 02:20:38.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: You have to have a...
[02:20:38.360 --> 02:20:40.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: Concept of what freedom of speech is all about.
[02:20:41.160 --> 02:20:42.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: And here at WBAI...
[02:20:42.440 --> 02:20:44.760]  [SPEAKER_02]: We try to instill that...
[02:20:44.760 --> 02:20:46.740]  [SPEAKER_02]: That concept of freedom of speech.
[02:20:46.880 --> 02:20:48.100]  [SPEAKER_02]: We do it 24 hours a day.
[02:20:48.820 --> 02:20:51.340]  [SPEAKER_02]: Almost every program aired on this radio station...
[02:20:51.340 --> 02:20:53.560]  [SPEAKER_02]: Would not be able to be aired...
[02:20:54.080 --> 02:20:55.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: Were we a commercial radio station.
[02:20:57.680 --> 02:21:00.340]  [SPEAKER_02]: Because there's certain things you just can't do...
[02:21:01.100 --> 02:21:03.580]  [SPEAKER_02]: When you've got sponsors breathing down your neck.
[02:21:05.540 --> 02:21:07.840]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's the reality of the situation...
[02:21:07.840 --> 02:21:08.640]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, uh...
[02:21:08.640 --> 02:21:11.340]  [SPEAKER_02]: I know lots of people on commercial radio...
[02:21:11.920 --> 02:21:13.080]  [SPEAKER_02]: That envy...
[02:21:13.080 --> 02:21:15.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: What we can do here at WBAI.
[02:21:15.260 --> 02:21:16.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: We can do anything at WBAI.
[02:21:18.060 --> 02:21:18.580]  [SPEAKER_02]: Anything.
[02:21:19.460 --> 02:21:21.100]  [SPEAKER_02]: You name it, we can do it.
[02:21:21.480 --> 02:21:22.000]  [SPEAKER_02]: But...
[02:21:22.620 --> 02:21:24.320]  [SPEAKER_02]: We also have to survive.
[02:21:24.320 --> 02:21:25.740]  [SPEAKER_02]: If we do not survive...
[02:21:25.740 --> 02:21:26.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: If we're not able to raise money...
[02:21:26.940 --> 02:21:27.560]  [SPEAKER_02]: And we are...
[02:21:27.560 --> 02:21:29.600]  [SPEAKER_02]: We have fallen pretty far behind...
[02:21:29.600 --> 02:21:30.240]  [SPEAKER_02]: I think.
[02:21:30.860 --> 02:21:33.240]  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I'm not a professional analyst or anything here...
[02:21:33.240 --> 02:21:34.380]  [SPEAKER_02]: But looking at the numbers...
[02:21:34.380 --> 02:21:36.120]  [SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't look like we're, uh...
[02:21:36.120 --> 02:21:38.860]  [SPEAKER_02]: We're moving at the clip that I'm used to.
[02:21:39.740 --> 02:21:40.800]  [SPEAKER_02]: That can be fixed...
[02:21:40.800 --> 02:21:42.560]  [SPEAKER_02]: With just a few people calling in...
[02:21:42.560 --> 02:21:43.740]  [SPEAKER_02]: With some pledges.
[02:21:44.720 --> 02:21:46.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: 212-279-3400.
[02:21:46.440 --> 02:21:47.340]  [SPEAKER_02]: We know it's...
[02:21:47.340 --> 02:21:49.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: 12 minutes after 3 o'clock in the morning.
[02:21:50.300 --> 02:21:51.560]  [SPEAKER_02]: But there's people out there.
[02:21:51.820 --> 02:21:53.080]  [SPEAKER_02]: There's plenty of people out there.
[02:21:53.080 --> 02:21:55.260]  [SPEAKER_02]: And you all matter to us.
[02:21:56.240 --> 02:21:57.560]  [SPEAKER_02]: You all count.
[02:22:01.440 --> 02:22:02.340]  [SPEAKER_02]: Every person...
[02:22:02.980 --> 02:22:03.880]  [SPEAKER_02]: Adds something.
[02:22:04.250 --> 02:22:05.000]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, uh...
[02:22:05.000 --> 02:22:06.780]  [SPEAKER_02]: You may say, well...
[02:22:06.780 --> 02:22:08.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: I can only pledge $25 or something like that.
[02:22:08.980 --> 02:22:10.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's not gonna make a difference.
[02:22:11.670 --> 02:22:13.700]  [SPEAKER_02]: But you get one person pledging $25.
[02:22:13.920 --> 02:22:15.170]  [SPEAKER_02]: You get another person pledging $10.
[02:22:15.460 --> 02:22:17.480]  [SPEAKER_02]: You get another person pledging $15.
[02:22:18.280 --> 02:22:18.880]  And...
[02:22:18.880 --> 02:22:20.100]  [SPEAKER_02]: Before you know it...
[02:22:20.100 --> 02:22:21.060]  [SPEAKER_02]: You're over $50.
[02:22:21.060 --> 02:22:22.760]  [SPEAKER_02]: And that's significant, folks.
[02:22:22.880 --> 02:22:23.880]  [SPEAKER_02]: That is significant.
[02:22:25.830 --> 02:22:26.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: And then you hit $100.
[02:22:27.380 --> 02:22:28.600]  [SPEAKER_02]: And then you keep going.
[02:22:28.800 --> 02:22:28.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know?
[02:22:29.020 --> 02:22:30.500]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's just one person after another.
[02:22:30.620 --> 02:22:32.860]  [SPEAKER_02]: We all link arms and move forward.
[02:22:32.910 --> 02:22:33.590]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's like...
[02:22:34.060 --> 02:22:35.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, when you go down to Washington, D.C.
[02:22:36.020 --> 02:22:37.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: To protest for something...
[02:22:37.670 --> 02:22:38.460]  [SPEAKER_02]: One thing or another.
[02:22:40.040 --> 02:22:41.420]  [SPEAKER_02]: You think there's something wrong with that?
[02:22:41.420 --> 02:22:42.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: There's nothing wrong with that?
[02:22:42.560 --> 02:22:44.100]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's what this nation is all about.
[02:22:44.260 --> 02:22:45.500]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's what we're supposed to be doing.
[02:22:48.100 --> 02:22:49.330]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, you walk down...
[02:22:49.330 --> 02:22:51.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: You get off a bus or you know a train or whatever...
[02:22:51.940 --> 02:22:54.260]  [SPEAKER_02]: And you see like, you know, five, ten people...
[02:22:54.260 --> 02:22:55.640]  [SPEAKER_02]: And you say, wow, this...
[02:22:55.640 --> 02:22:56.910]  [SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes people here...
[02:22:56.910 --> 02:22:58.250]  [SPEAKER_02]: But it's not really a lot.
[02:22:59.020 --> 02:23:01.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: And then you turn a corner and you see a hundred more.
[02:23:02.220 --> 02:23:03.410]  [SPEAKER_02]: And you start feeling good.
[02:23:03.560 --> 02:23:03.910]  [SPEAKER_02]: And then...
[02:23:04.280 --> 02:23:06.180]  [SPEAKER_02]: You all walk down the street and you...
[02:23:06.180 --> 02:23:09.020]  [SPEAKER_02]: And you turn another corner and you see a thousand people.
[02:23:10.040 --> 02:23:11.760]  [SPEAKER_02]: And it all just keeps growing.
[02:23:13.200 --> 02:23:15.680]  [SPEAKER_02]: Until you have this...
[02:23:15.680 --> 02:23:18.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: Massive bunch of individual people.
[02:23:19.220 --> 02:23:20.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: Every single person different from the other.
[02:23:21.220 --> 02:23:23.460]  [SPEAKER_02]: But they've all joined together for one thing.
[02:23:25.830 --> 02:23:28.420]  [SPEAKER_02]: And whether or not they get that one thing immediately.
[02:23:29.700 --> 02:23:31.720]  [SPEAKER_02]: They've participated in the process.
[02:23:31.960 --> 02:23:33.620]  [SPEAKER_02]: They've raised their voices.
[02:23:33.640 --> 02:23:34.800]  [SPEAKER_02]: They have been heard.
[02:23:37.520 --> 02:23:39.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I'll tell you, a couple of times...
[02:23:40.100 --> 02:23:41.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: Going down to Washington, D.C.
[02:23:41.460 --> 02:23:42.780]  [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think we would have been heard...
[02:23:42.780 --> 02:23:45.000]  [SPEAKER_02]: Had it not been for stations like WBAI...
[02:23:45.000 --> 02:23:46.560]  [SPEAKER_02]: And the whole Pacifica network.
[02:23:48.910 --> 02:23:50.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, it's a stepping stone.
[02:23:50.600 --> 02:23:52.120]  [SPEAKER_02]: One thing leads to another.
[02:23:52.480 --> 02:23:55.380]  [SPEAKER_02]: And a strong radio station here in New York City...
[02:23:56.010 --> 02:23:58.640]  [SPEAKER_02]: Leads to people that are inspired to do something...
[02:23:59.120 --> 02:24:00.340]  [SPEAKER_02]: In other parts of the country.
[02:24:00.680 --> 02:24:03.000]  [SPEAKER_02]: Like I mentioned before, WBAI has...
[02:24:03.000 --> 02:24:05.560]  [SPEAKER_02]: Has become famous throughout the world.
[02:24:06.180 --> 02:24:07.540]  [SPEAKER_02]: Because of what we do here.
[02:24:07.920 --> 02:24:08.260]  [SPEAKER_02]: And...
[02:24:08.260 --> 02:24:09.700]  [SPEAKER_02]: If you go to, uh...
[02:24:09.700 --> 02:24:10.920]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, other places...
[02:24:10.920 --> 02:24:11.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: Like, uh...
[02:24:11.980 --> 02:24:13.020]  [SPEAKER_02]: Gary, Indiana...
[02:24:13.020 --> 02:24:14.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: I don't mean to pick on them...
[02:24:14.200 --> 02:24:14.920]  [SPEAKER_02]: But I'm just saying...
[02:24:14.920 --> 02:24:16.020]  [SPEAKER_02]: You go to a place...
[02:24:16.020 --> 02:24:17.780]  [SPEAKER_02]: That is not New York City...
[02:24:17.780 --> 02:24:19.750]  [SPEAKER_02]: That does not have a Pacifica radio station...
[02:24:19.750 --> 02:24:20.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well...
[02:24:20.910 --> 02:24:22.480]  [SPEAKER_02]: You won't hear...
[02:24:22.930 --> 02:24:24.830]  [SPEAKER_02]: The things you hear on this radio station.
[02:24:25.000 --> 02:24:25.250]  [SPEAKER_02]: Period.
[02:24:25.360 --> 02:24:26.060]  [SPEAKER_02]: You won't hear them.
[02:24:26.460 --> 02:24:29.780]  [SPEAKER_02]: You will not ever hear what we say here.
[02:24:31.300 --> 02:24:32.590]  [SPEAKER_02]: And that's sad.
[02:24:33.600 --> 02:24:35.220]  [SPEAKER_02]: Because the only way to make...
[02:24:35.220 --> 02:24:36.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: An informed decision is to...
[02:24:37.340 --> 02:24:39.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: Be able to think...
[02:24:39.640 --> 02:24:40.910]  [SPEAKER_02]: Of what people are saying.
[02:24:41.300 --> 02:24:43.000]  [SPEAKER_02]: To be able to hear opposition.
[02:24:43.940 --> 02:24:45.120]  [SPEAKER_02]: Conflicting views.
[02:24:47.860 --> 02:24:49.120]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, a lot of, uh...
[02:24:50.180 --> 02:24:52.460]  [SPEAKER_02]: A lot of the major networks...
[02:24:52.460 --> 02:24:52.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, uh...
[02:24:52.980 --> 02:24:55.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: Most popular, successful...
[02:24:55.140 --> 02:24:56.120]  [SPEAKER_02]: Commercial stations...
[02:24:56.860 --> 02:24:57.840]  [SPEAKER_02]: Don't think that's important.
[02:24:58.380 --> 02:24:59.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: They want ratings.
[02:24:59.860 --> 02:25:00.860]  [SPEAKER_02]: They don't want controversy.
[02:25:01.120 --> 02:25:02.090]  [SPEAKER_02]: They don't want people thinking.
[02:25:03.250 --> 02:25:04.560]  [SPEAKER_02]: They just want to...
[02:25:04.560 --> 02:25:06.340]  [SPEAKER_02]: Spit the same old garbage out.
[02:25:06.830 --> 02:25:08.120]  [SPEAKER_02]: And have you, uh...
[02:25:08.720 --> 02:25:09.680]  [SPEAKER_02]: Swallow it all.
[02:25:09.920 --> 02:25:11.300]  [SPEAKER_02]: But you do have a choice.
[02:25:12.140 --> 02:25:13.180]  [SPEAKER_02]: You can vote.
[02:25:16.080 --> 02:25:18.300]  [SPEAKER_02]: And commercial radio stations...
[02:25:18.300 --> 02:25:19.800]  [SPEAKER_02]: Are not free.
[02:25:19.980 --> 02:25:20.780]  [SPEAKER_02]: They cost you too.
[02:25:20.960 --> 02:25:22.310]  [SPEAKER_02]: They cost you plenty because...
[02:25:23.740 --> 02:25:25.310]  [SPEAKER_02]: Advertising is probably, uh...
[02:25:25.880 --> 02:25:26.830]  [SPEAKER_02]: The most...
[02:25:26.830 --> 02:25:29.380]  [SPEAKER_02]: Expensive thing that, uh...
[02:25:29.380 --> 02:25:31.420]  [SPEAKER_02]: That a company pays for.
[02:25:31.830 --> 02:25:32.800]  [SPEAKER_02]: And that, uh...
[02:25:32.800 --> 02:25:34.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: Certainly passed along...
[02:25:34.360 --> 02:25:35.910]  [SPEAKER_02]: To almost every product you buy.
[02:25:37.480 --> 02:25:38.220]  [SPEAKER_02]: So, yeah.
[02:25:38.280 --> 02:25:39.560]  [SPEAKER_02]: You do pay for commercial radio.
[02:25:39.700 --> 02:25:41.000]  [SPEAKER_02]: You do pay for commercial TV.
[02:25:41.300 --> 02:25:41.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh...
[02:25:41.980 --> 02:25:45.020]  [SPEAKER_02]: The only way you can pay for non-commercial radio, though...
[02:25:45.020 --> 02:25:45.670]  [SPEAKER_02]: Is to pledge.
[02:25:46.620 --> 02:25:49.410]  [SPEAKER_02]: And that's something that comes right back at you.
[02:25:49.560 --> 02:25:51.670]  [SPEAKER_02]: Because whenever you pledge to WBAI...
[02:25:51.670 --> 02:25:52.300]  [SPEAKER_02]: You'll be getting...
[02:25:52.300 --> 02:25:54.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: The WBAI folio for, uh...
[02:25:54.440 --> 02:25:55.090]  [SPEAKER_02]: A full year.
[02:25:55.380 --> 02:25:56.330]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's, uh...
[02:25:56.330 --> 02:25:56.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: Twelve months.
[02:25:59.100 --> 02:26:00.300]  [SPEAKER_02]: And tonight...
[02:26:00.300 --> 02:26:01.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: We're offering, uh...
[02:26:02.300 --> 02:26:02.910]  [SPEAKER_02]: Several...
[02:26:02.910 --> 02:26:04.830]  [SPEAKER_02]: Different incentives for people, uh...
[02:26:04.830 --> 02:26:05.480]  [SPEAKER_02]: Who call in.
[02:26:05.920 --> 02:26:07.640]  [SPEAKER_02]: First of all, everybody...
[02:26:07.640 --> 02:26:09.310]  [SPEAKER_02]: Who pledges anything...
[02:26:10.100 --> 02:26:11.220]  [SPEAKER_02]: We'll get a, uh...
[02:26:11.220 --> 02:26:12.220]  [SPEAKER_02]: Free copy of...
[02:26:12.220 --> 02:26:14.340]  [SPEAKER_02]: The magazine that I work for...
[02:26:14.340 --> 02:26:15.540]  [SPEAKER_02]: Which is 2600...
[02:26:15.540 --> 02:26:16.720]  [SPEAKER_02]: The Hacker Quarterly...
[02:26:16.720 --> 02:26:17.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: Where we talk about issues...
[02:26:17.980 --> 02:26:20.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: Such as Steve Jackson games...
[02:26:20.140 --> 02:26:21.120]  [SPEAKER_02]: And the, uh...
[02:26:21.120 --> 02:26:22.760]  [SPEAKER_02]: Crackdown by the Secret Service...
[02:26:22.760 --> 02:26:23.180]  [SPEAKER_02]: On, uh...
[02:26:23.180 --> 02:26:24.540]  [SPEAKER_02]: Fourteen year old kids...
[02:26:24.540 --> 02:26:25.040]  [SPEAKER_02]: Who...
[02:26:25.040 --> 02:26:26.300]  [SPEAKER_02]: Call computers...
[02:26:26.960 --> 02:26:27.520]  And...
[02:26:28.400 --> 02:26:29.520]  [SPEAKER_02]: Do various...
[02:26:29.520 --> 02:26:30.420]  [SPEAKER_02]: Mischievous...
[02:26:30.420 --> 02:26:31.340]  [SPEAKER_02]: Things...
[02:26:31.340 --> 02:26:33.700]  [SPEAKER_02]: And then wind up with, uh...
[02:26:33.700 --> 02:26:35.060]  [SPEAKER_02]: Dozens of people...
[02:26:35.060 --> 02:26:36.020]  [SPEAKER_02]: Fighting guns at them...
[02:26:36.020 --> 02:26:37.070]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, uh...
[02:26:39.740 --> 02:26:40.730]  [SPEAKER_02]: Scaring them to death...
[02:26:42.700 --> 02:26:43.740]  [SPEAKER_02]: Because of a system...
[02:26:43.740 --> 02:26:44.730]  [SPEAKER_02]: They don't understand...
[02:26:45.680 --> 02:26:46.720]  [SPEAKER_02]: We write about that...
[02:26:47.340 --> 02:26:48.900]  [SPEAKER_02]: We write about privacy issues...
[02:26:48.900 --> 02:26:51.220]  [SPEAKER_02]: About things that you need to know...
[02:26:51.220 --> 02:26:53.220]  [SPEAKER_02]: And that's something we also do...
[02:26:53.220 --> 02:26:54.240]  [SPEAKER_02]: Here on the radio...
[02:26:54.240 --> 02:26:54.920]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's something we...
[02:26:54.920 --> 02:26:57.100]  [SPEAKER_02]: Want to continue doing...
[02:26:57.660 --> 02:26:58.060]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay...
[02:26:58.060 --> 02:27:00.220]  [SPEAKER_02]: Two callers on the line...
[02:27:00.760 --> 02:27:02.040]  [SPEAKER_02]: Let's get a couple more...
[02:27:02.040 --> 02:27:03.660]  [SPEAKER_02]: Because we know you're out there...
[02:27:03.660 --> 02:27:06.020]  [SPEAKER_02]: We know it means something to you...
[02:27:06.860 --> 02:27:07.760]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, uh...
[02:27:07.760 --> 02:27:08.740]  [SPEAKER_02]: We want it to be able to...
[02:27:10.280 --> 02:27:10.800]  Continue...
[02:27:12.160 --> 02:27:13.120]  [SPEAKER_02]: And we...
[02:27:13.120 --> 02:27:14.320]  [SPEAKER_02]: Beg for, uh...
[02:27:14.320 --> 02:27:15.860]  [SPEAKER_02]: The people calling in to please...
[02:27:15.860 --> 02:27:16.520]  [SPEAKER_02]: Be patient...
[02:27:16.520 --> 02:27:17.500]  [SPEAKER_02]: Because, uh...
[02:27:17.500 --> 02:27:19.760]  [SPEAKER_02]: Our tally room staff has been rather...
[02:27:19.760 --> 02:27:20.860]  [SPEAKER_02]: Rather, uh...
[02:27:28.190 --> 02:27:28.710]  Low...
[02:27:29.650 --> 02:27:30.170]  [SPEAKER_02]: 212...
[02:27:30.990 --> 02:27:31.510]  [SPEAKER_02]: 279...
[02:27:33.970 --> 02:27:34.490]  3400...
[02:27:35.510 --> 02:27:36.550]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, uh...
[02:27:36.550 --> 02:27:38.130]  [SPEAKER_02]: The more calls we get...
[02:27:38.130 --> 02:27:39.110]  [SPEAKER_02]: The better we will...
[02:27:39.110 --> 02:27:40.110]  [SPEAKER_02]: We will be...
[02:27:40.110 --> 02:27:41.530]  [SPEAKER_02]: The stronger this program will be...
[02:27:41.530 --> 02:27:42.970]  [SPEAKER_02]: The more facts we can bring you...
[02:27:42.970 --> 02:27:43.170]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know...
[02:27:43.170 --> 02:27:45.090]  [SPEAKER_02]: We can get out there and, uh...
[02:27:45.090 --> 02:27:45.470]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, uh...
[02:27:45.470 --> 02:27:47.130]  [SPEAKER_02]: Give you all kinds of information...
[02:27:47.130 --> 02:27:48.990]  [SPEAKER_02]: Because there's so much happening...
[02:27:48.990 --> 02:27:49.190]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know...
[02:27:49.190 --> 02:27:51.810]  [SPEAKER_02]: Steve Jackson games is just one thing...
[02:27:51.810 --> 02:27:53.990]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's just one thing...
[02:27:54.450 --> 02:27:55.550]  [SPEAKER_02]: And there's, uh...
[02:27:56.210 --> 02:27:57.510]  [SPEAKER_02]: A lot going on...
[02:27:57.510 --> 02:27:58.170]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know...
[02:27:58.170 --> 02:28:00.510]  [SPEAKER_02]: We told you the story of Kevin Mitnick...
[02:28:00.510 --> 02:28:01.090]  [SPEAKER_02]: Who was, uh...
[02:28:01.090 --> 02:28:02.050]  [SPEAKER_02]: Known as the...
[02:28:02.050 --> 02:28:03.670]  [SPEAKER_02]: Dark side hacker...
[02:28:03.670 --> 02:28:05.970]  [SPEAKER_02]: He was the person that could do anything...
[02:28:05.970 --> 02:28:08.230]  [SPEAKER_02]: He was so dangerous...
[02:28:08.230 --> 02:28:10.430]  [SPEAKER_02]: This person was so dangerous that...
[02:28:10.430 --> 02:28:14.990]  [SPEAKER_02]: The California authorities had to lock him up in solitary confinement...
[02:28:14.990 --> 02:28:17.370]  [SPEAKER_02]: Solitary confinement...
[02:28:17.820 --> 02:28:20.010]  [SPEAKER_02]: For long periods of time...
[02:28:20.010 --> 02:28:22.970]  [SPEAKER_02]: Because they were so afraid of him...
[02:28:23.770 --> 02:28:27.130]  [SPEAKER_02]: They thought that once he got to a telephone...
[02:28:27.970 --> 02:28:30.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: He could almost destroy the world...
[02:28:31.290 --> 02:28:32.770]  [SPEAKER_02]: And these...
[02:28:32.770 --> 02:28:35.170]  [SPEAKER_02]: Are people in positions of power...
[02:28:35.170 --> 02:28:36.110]  [SPEAKER_02]: That feel this way...
[02:28:36.110 --> 02:28:36.770]  [SPEAKER_02]: These are judges...
[02:28:38.610 --> 02:28:40.210]  [SPEAKER_02]: And prosecutors...
[02:28:40.210 --> 02:28:42.770]  [SPEAKER_02]: And news reporters...
[02:28:43.330 --> 02:28:46.270]  [SPEAKER_02]: That actually believe...
[02:28:46.270 --> 02:28:49.890]  [SPEAKER_02]: That someone is that dangerous...
[02:28:49.890 --> 02:28:52.230]  [SPEAKER_02]: And that the...
[02:28:52.610 --> 02:28:53.810]  [SPEAKER_02]: Systems that are...
[02:28:53.810 --> 02:28:55.070]  [SPEAKER_02]: Operating our lives...
[02:28:55.070 --> 02:28:56.150]  [SPEAKER_02]: The computer systems...
[02:28:56.150 --> 02:28:57.150]  [SPEAKER_02]: Telephone systems...
[02:28:57.150 --> 02:28:57.930]  [SPEAKER_02]: Are so fragile...
[02:28:58.350 --> 02:29:00.870]  [SPEAKER_02]: That one person can cause them to destroy themselves...
[02:29:03.790 --> 02:29:04.150]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now...
[02:29:04.150 --> 02:29:05.870]  [SPEAKER_02]: Kevin Mitnick has been out of prison for...
[02:29:09.030 --> 02:29:09.390]  For...
[02:29:10.730 --> 02:29:11.870]  [SPEAKER_02]: Over a year...
[02:29:11.870 --> 02:29:12.990]  [SPEAKER_02]: About a year and a half...
[02:29:12.990 --> 02:29:13.870]  [SPEAKER_02]: I would suppose...
[02:29:15.430 --> 02:29:17.490]  [SPEAKER_02]: And we wanted to get him on the program tonight...
[02:29:17.490 --> 02:29:18.030]  [SPEAKER_02]: But you know what?
[02:29:19.390 --> 02:29:20.090]  [SPEAKER_02]: There's a...
[02:29:20.090 --> 02:29:21.350]  [SPEAKER_02]: Little condition...
[02:29:21.350 --> 02:29:22.910]  [SPEAKER_02]: Of his release...
[02:29:22.910 --> 02:29:24.370]  [SPEAKER_02]: That he not talked to media...
[02:29:25.410 --> 02:29:27.230]  [SPEAKER_02]: He has to ask permission...
[02:29:27.230 --> 02:29:29.630]  [SPEAKER_02]: Every time he talks to anybody...
[02:29:29.630 --> 02:29:31.030]  [SPEAKER_02]: Related to the media...
[02:29:31.030 --> 02:29:31.870]  [SPEAKER_02]: And they...
[02:29:32.550 --> 02:29:33.070]  [SPEAKER_02]: Don't...
[02:29:33.070 --> 02:29:33.890]  [SPEAKER_02]: Grant it...
[02:29:33.890 --> 02:29:35.450]  [SPEAKER_02]: They just don't grant it...
[02:29:35.450 --> 02:29:36.350]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's uh...
[02:29:37.510 --> 02:29:40.190]  [SPEAKER_02]: The craziest thing I've ever heard of...
[02:29:40.770 --> 02:29:42.850]  [SPEAKER_02]: But they don't want him talking to the media...
[02:29:42.850 --> 02:29:43.730]  [SPEAKER_02]: And you have to ask yourself...
[02:29:43.730 --> 02:29:44.430]  [SPEAKER_02]: Why is that?
[02:29:44.730 --> 02:29:45.070]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know?
[02:29:46.170 --> 02:29:48.250]  [SPEAKER_02]: What are they afraid he's going to say?
[02:29:52.700 --> 02:29:53.580]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's uh...
[02:29:54.860 --> 02:29:55.860]  [SPEAKER_02]: A scary situation...
[02:29:56.500 --> 02:29:57.560]  [SPEAKER_02]: As I said earlier...
[02:29:57.560 --> 02:29:59.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: And it's going to get scarier...
[02:29:59.200 --> 02:30:00.620]  [SPEAKER_02]: Unless we have some education...
[02:30:00.620 --> 02:30:02.020]  [SPEAKER_02]: Unless we have people that...
[02:30:02.020 --> 02:30:02.840]  [SPEAKER_02]: Show they care...
[02:30:03.360 --> 02:30:04.820]  [SPEAKER_02]: And that are willing to stand up...
[02:30:04.820 --> 02:30:05.840]  [SPEAKER_02]: And speak their minds...
[02:30:09.060 --> 02:30:11.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: Please stand up and speak your minds...
[02:30:11.280 --> 02:30:12.900]  [SPEAKER_02]: By calling us...
[02:30:12.900 --> 02:30:13.640]  [SPEAKER_02]: And uh...
[02:30:13.640 --> 02:30:15.600]  [SPEAKER_02]: Showing you support this radio station...
[02:30:15.600 --> 02:30:17.660]  [SPEAKER_02]: And are willing to keep it going...
[02:30:18.440 --> 02:30:20.620]  [SPEAKER_02]: Because if we don't get those calls...
[02:30:20.620 --> 02:30:23.240]  [SPEAKER_02]: We can't charge into the 90s...
[02:30:23.240 --> 02:30:26.820]  [SPEAKER_02]: With the passion that we want to charge into the 90s with...
[02:30:26.820 --> 02:30:28.400]  [SPEAKER_02]: Imagine if uh...
[02:30:28.400 --> 02:30:31.020]  [SPEAKER_02]: If we weren't able to be here...
[02:30:31.020 --> 02:30:32.020]  [SPEAKER_02]: Or we had to...
[02:30:32.020 --> 02:30:33.580]  [SPEAKER_02]: Cut down on uh...
[02:30:33.580 --> 02:30:34.680]  [SPEAKER_02]: On a transmitter height...
[02:30:34.680 --> 02:30:36.060]  [SPEAKER_02]: We couldn't afford to uh...
[02:30:36.060 --> 02:30:37.380]  [SPEAKER_02]: To raise the transmitter...
[02:30:37.380 --> 02:30:39.260]  [SPEAKER_02]: Because everybody on the Empire State Building...
[02:30:39.260 --> 02:30:40.720]  [SPEAKER_02]: Is uh...
[02:30:40.720 --> 02:30:42.620]  [SPEAKER_02]: Is moving to a higher location...
[02:30:43.560 --> 02:30:45.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: At an immense cost...
[02:30:45.280 --> 02:30:47.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: If we weren't able to participate in that...
[02:30:47.920 --> 02:30:50.840]  [SPEAKER_02]: Less people would be able to participate in the process...
[02:30:50.840 --> 02:30:51.580]  [SPEAKER_02]: And that would be a tragedy...
[02:30:52.120 --> 02:30:52.860]  [SPEAKER_02]: That would be a...
[02:30:53.440 --> 02:30:55.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: A damn shame...
[02:30:57.480 --> 02:30:59.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: 212-279-3400...
[02:31:00.440 --> 02:31:01.560]  [SPEAKER_02]: We are getting calls...
[02:31:02.120 --> 02:31:03.560]  [SPEAKER_02]: I see the calls coming in...
[02:31:03.560 --> 02:31:05.740]  [SPEAKER_02]: There's three calls on the line right now...
[02:31:05.740 --> 02:31:07.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: Three calls on the line...
[02:31:09.560 --> 02:31:10.040]  [SPEAKER_02]: Please...
[02:31:10.040 --> 02:31:11.240]  [SPEAKER_02]: Let's get a bingo...
[02:31:11.240 --> 02:31:12.300]  [SPEAKER_02]: We can do it...
[02:31:12.300 --> 02:31:13.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: I know we can do it...
[02:31:15.540 --> 02:31:17.840]  [SPEAKER_02]: 212-279-3400...
[02:31:18.760 --> 02:31:20.820]  [SPEAKER_02]: And we want to thank some people...
[02:31:20.820 --> 02:31:22.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: We want to thank Susan from Brooklyn...
[02:31:23.700 --> 02:31:26.120]  [SPEAKER_02]: We want to thank Rick from Clifton, New Jersey...
[02:31:26.120 --> 02:31:27.400]  [SPEAKER_02]: Who we mentioned before...
[02:31:27.400 --> 02:31:28.720]  [SPEAKER_02]: We want to thank uh...
[02:31:28.720 --> 02:31:30.700]  [SPEAKER_02]: Florian from New York City...
[02:31:30.700 --> 02:31:31.800]  [SPEAKER_02]: Alice from Mount...
[02:31:31.800 --> 02:31:33.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: Mount Kisco...
[02:31:34.700 --> 02:31:36.880]  [SPEAKER_02]: Mark from Manhattan...
[02:31:37.440 --> 02:31:39.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: And John from Woodside...
[02:31:40.400 --> 02:31:41.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: Who says...
[02:31:41.280 --> 02:31:42.700]  [SPEAKER_02]: Off the Hook is his favorite show...
[02:31:42.700 --> 02:31:43.000]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well that's...
[02:31:43.000 --> 02:31:44.640]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's good to know...
[02:31:45.340 --> 02:31:46.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's good to know...
[02:31:46.200 --> 02:31:47.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: That makes me feel great to know...
[02:31:47.440 --> 02:31:48.500]  [SPEAKER_02]: That people out there...
[02:31:48.500 --> 02:31:50.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: Are into the program...
[02:31:50.140 --> 02:31:51.220]  [SPEAKER_02]: Because um...
[02:31:51.220 --> 02:31:52.220]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know...
[02:31:52.220 --> 02:31:53.720]  [SPEAKER_02]: I try to find...
[02:31:53.720 --> 02:31:56.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: Bits and pieces of information that uh...
[02:31:58.260 --> 02:31:59.320]  [SPEAKER_02]: That are pertinent...
[02:31:59.320 --> 02:32:00.700]  [SPEAKER_02]: To what's going on today...
[02:32:00.700 --> 02:32:00.900]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know...
[02:32:00.900 --> 02:32:01.740]  [SPEAKER_02]: There's a lot out there...
[02:32:01.740 --> 02:32:02.420]  [SPEAKER_02]: There's a lot of...
[02:32:02.420 --> 02:32:04.660]  [SPEAKER_02]: Of garbage out there...
[02:32:04.660 --> 02:32:06.580]  [SPEAKER_02]: You ever pick up a computer magazine...
[02:32:06.580 --> 02:32:08.400]  [SPEAKER_02]: When you read all this trade talk...
[02:32:08.400 --> 02:32:08.720]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know...
[02:32:08.720 --> 02:32:10.680]  [SPEAKER_02]: About operating systems...
[02:32:10.680 --> 02:32:10.900]  [SPEAKER_02]: And...
[02:32:11.420 --> 02:32:12.580]  [SPEAKER_02]: And RAM chips...
[02:32:12.580 --> 02:32:13.120]  [SPEAKER_02]: And all that...
[02:32:13.120 --> 02:32:13.520]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's...
[02:32:13.520 --> 02:32:14.760]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's interesting if you're...
[02:32:14.760 --> 02:32:16.160]  [SPEAKER_02]: In a particular...
[02:32:16.160 --> 02:32:17.020]  [SPEAKER_02]: World...
[02:32:17.020 --> 02:32:19.240]  [SPEAKER_02]: And talking to certain people...
[02:32:19.240 --> 02:32:20.820]  [SPEAKER_02]: And you speak that little lingo...
[02:32:20.820 --> 02:32:21.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: But...
[02:32:21.200 --> 02:32:21.820]  [SPEAKER_02]: Once you...
[02:32:21.820 --> 02:32:23.260]  [SPEAKER_02]: Once you start talking to...
[02:32:23.260 --> 02:32:24.340]  [SPEAKER_02]: Other people...
[02:32:24.340 --> 02:32:26.480]  [SPEAKER_02]: Once you start talking to uh...
[02:32:26.480 --> 02:32:28.080]  [SPEAKER_02]: The people outside the world...
[02:32:28.080 --> 02:32:29.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: You start using that lingo...
[02:32:29.200 --> 02:32:30.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: And you turn them right off...
[02:32:30.440 --> 02:32:30.660]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know...
[02:32:30.660 --> 02:32:33.080]  [SPEAKER_02]: They're not interested in that kind of thing...
[02:32:33.080 --> 02:32:34.620]  [SPEAKER_02]: Not interested at all...
[02:32:34.620 --> 02:32:36.900]  [SPEAKER_02]: You have to find a way to relate it.
[02:32:37.600 --> 02:32:41.060]  [SPEAKER_02]: To relate your world to somebody else's world.
[02:32:41.600 --> 02:32:48.180]  [SPEAKER_02]: What we have right now is factionalization where everybody is in their own world and nobody is interested in other people's worlds.
[02:32:48.340 --> 02:32:52.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: And that's sadly what happens so much of the time in the computer world.
[02:32:53.940 --> 02:32:57.800]  [SPEAKER_02]: People see you sitting down, tapping away at a terminal and they just think you're nuts.
[02:32:58.080 --> 02:33:08.480]  [SPEAKER_02]: They just think you're interested in, you know, playing with chips and basic and C programming and all that kind of thing.
[02:33:08.620 --> 02:33:13.020]  [SPEAKER_02]: They don't see how it relates to their world.
[02:33:13.020 --> 02:33:13.820]  [SPEAKER_02]: And it does.
[02:33:14.260 --> 02:33:15.560]  [SPEAKER_02]: Oh boy, it does.
[02:33:15.560 --> 02:33:28.660]  [SPEAKER_02]: Because what computers are doing today, what they're controlling, what they're designing, what is happening on the networks, it's fascinating, it's exciting, it's intriguing.
[02:33:29.520 --> 02:33:32.040]  [SPEAKER_02]: And it's something that affects each and every one of us.
[02:33:32.160 --> 02:33:52.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: But if we go through life not knowing that, not realizing what's happening, not seeing the potential threat and the potential abuses, then we're just opening ourselves up for a kind of oppression that has never been experienced before.
[02:33:54.740 --> 02:33:55.820]  [SPEAKER_02]: Look at what's happened.
[02:33:55.920 --> 02:34:01.420]  [SPEAKER_02]: Look at what's happened with your credit reports, your social security numbers, your phone numbers.
[02:34:02.940 --> 02:34:08.860]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, there's so much information about you currently stored on computer that it would make your head swim.
[02:34:09.880 --> 02:34:13.660]  [SPEAKER_02]: We don't all have FBI reports, although I think most of us probably do.
[02:34:15.560 --> 02:34:22.400]  [SPEAKER_02]: But probably the vast majority of us do have a file in TRW, and that file decides your future.
[02:34:22.540 --> 02:34:30.340]  [SPEAKER_02]: If you get a bad credit rating, a bad credit rating, it's almost impossible to straighten it out.
[02:34:30.500 --> 02:34:32.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: I've heard that from so many people.
[02:34:33.460 --> 02:34:35.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: And it's so sad to see this happen.
[02:34:36.140 --> 02:34:37.620]  [SPEAKER_02]: How do you fix something like that?
[02:34:37.620 --> 02:34:51.820]  [SPEAKER_02]: Once somebody has labeled you in a particular column of a computer program, it's hard as hell to get moved to the other column of the computer program that labels you as good.
[02:34:52.520 --> 02:34:53.620]  [SPEAKER_02]: Good or bad.
[02:34:55.580 --> 02:34:56.540]  [SPEAKER_02]: Which are you?
[02:34:58.600 --> 02:35:02.620]  [SPEAKER_02]: No one has ever asked us for our input.
[02:35:03.180 --> 02:35:12.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: Did anybody ask you if it's okay to keep a file on you about your payment history on your Sears bill?
[02:35:12.480 --> 02:35:14.220]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I've got news for you.
[02:35:14.220 --> 02:35:22.800]  [SPEAKER_02]: If you have a Sears card or if you have a Visa card, there's a computer file that says how you have paid your bill over the past several years.
[02:35:23.180 --> 02:35:28.840]  [SPEAKER_02]: If you're a month late, if you're two months late, if you pay on time, it's all there.
[02:35:29.580 --> 02:35:30.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: And it can be looked at.
[02:35:31.140 --> 02:35:33.340]  [SPEAKER_02]: Not just by computer hackers.
[02:35:33.800 --> 02:35:34.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: No, they're not the threat.
[02:35:34.940 --> 02:35:42.740]  [SPEAKER_02]: But the threat is all the people who make decisions that are able to just categorize you at any time.
[02:35:46.720 --> 02:35:50.540]  [SPEAKER_02]: And then we have social security numbers.
[02:35:52.140 --> 02:35:54.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: We have all the phone records.
[02:35:54.340 --> 02:36:07.380]  [SPEAKER_02]: You can find out so much about somebody by analyzing their phone bills, seeing where they were at a particular time, looking at their credit card purchases, what they buy, where they buy it.
[02:36:10.060 --> 02:36:12.500]  [SPEAKER_02]: A lot of information is stored about all of us.
[02:36:12.600 --> 02:36:17.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: And it's something that we should be playing a very major role in.
[02:36:19.260 --> 02:36:23.220]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, there's something else that I sort of like to dwell upon.
[02:36:24.400 --> 02:36:28.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: But please, people, do call 279-3400, area code 212.
[02:36:30.140 --> 02:36:33.640]  [SPEAKER_02]: Because we want to keep these thoughts coming at you.
[02:36:33.720 --> 02:36:35.320]  [SPEAKER_02]: We want to keep the information coming at you.
[02:36:35.700 --> 02:36:37.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: And we want to also hear from you.
[02:36:37.460 --> 02:36:39.040]  [SPEAKER_02]: We're going to take some phone calls in a little while.
[02:36:42.410 --> 02:36:49.850]  [SPEAKER_02]: Has anybody heard of the latest controversy involving an online computer service?
[02:36:49.850 --> 02:36:53.870]  [SPEAKER_02]: An online computer service used by, I believe, a million people now.
[02:36:55.030 --> 02:36:55.910]  [SPEAKER_02]: A million people.
[02:36:56.090 --> 02:36:59.870]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's something that's geared towards the average American.
[02:36:59.870 --> 02:37:03.930]  [SPEAKER_02]: This is the introduction to computers, to online technology.
[02:37:04.930 --> 02:37:06.590]  [SPEAKER_02]: A system called Prodigy.
[02:37:07.810 --> 02:37:09.230]  [SPEAKER_02]: Many of you have heard of it.
[02:37:09.530 --> 02:37:10.750]  [SPEAKER_02]: Many of you probably use it.
[02:37:11.390 --> 02:37:20.550]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not going to pass judgment on this particular computer system, because that's something that we can do another time.
[02:37:20.550 --> 02:37:34.850]  [SPEAKER_02]: But, this computer system has been criticized in the past for censoring various pieces of correspondence on its network.
[02:37:37.340 --> 02:37:44.040]  [SPEAKER_02]: And for kicking users off who criticized their system a little bit too much.
[02:37:46.120 --> 02:37:59.120]  [SPEAKER_02]: But I think the most important and probably the most scary thing has happened recently, where people have looked a little bit closer at what Prodigy actually does.
[02:37:59.260 --> 02:38:00.620]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, the way the system works is this.
[02:38:02.420 --> 02:38:18.740]  [SPEAKER_02]: You sign up for an account, and you tell it what kind of a computer you have, and when you call up their system using your computer, the two systems kind of do what they call handshake.
[02:38:20.740 --> 02:38:29.640]  [SPEAKER_02]: Your system reaches out and writes some data to the Prodigy system, and then Prodigy, and this is what's new, this is what's different.
[02:38:30.180 --> 02:38:34.500]  [SPEAKER_02]: Prodigy reaches back and does some stuff to your system.
[02:38:35.680 --> 02:38:39.100]  [SPEAKER_02]: And the reason for this is it makes things go faster.
[02:38:39.100 --> 02:38:49.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: You can have quicker access to certain menus and screens, because you have a profile, a profile that is written to your hard disk.
[02:38:49.380 --> 02:38:54.700]  [SPEAKER_02]: And it doesn't have to look for you in the Prodigy computer somewhere.
[02:38:54.760 --> 02:39:02.460]  [SPEAKER_02]: It can just look on your system and see what you like, and what your configurations are, and it can make it go so much quicker.
[02:39:05.820 --> 02:39:08.880]  [SPEAKER_02]: So it's a good development in that sense.
[02:39:09.040 --> 02:39:15.960]  [SPEAKER_02]: But, there's something that nobody apparently had ever thought of.
[02:39:18.580 --> 02:39:30.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: Prodigy writes a file to your computer system, a file that asks for a rather large amount of memory, something like 200K, I believe.
[02:39:31.580 --> 02:39:34.860]  [SPEAKER_02]: And that space is not always used.
[02:39:35.200 --> 02:39:47.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: In other words, they tell your computer that they need a certain amount of space, and they use some of it, but the rest is just kind of waiting to be used.
[02:39:49.340 --> 02:39:54.220]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, somebody decided to look at the rest of the file, the unused section.
[02:39:56.400 --> 02:39:57.620]  [SPEAKER_02]: And they analyzed it.
[02:39:57.740 --> 02:40:08.560]  [SPEAKER_02]: They went through a little program that analyzes every sector of a disk, and they looked at the unused part of this file, which is known as stage.dat.
[02:40:13.190 --> 02:40:16.970]  [SPEAKER_02]: And as they were looking at this file, they noticed something very disturbing.
[02:40:18.010 --> 02:40:26.790]  [SPEAKER_02]: They noticed that in that unused section were bits and pieces of other files, files that had nothing to do with Prodigy.
[02:40:26.790 --> 02:40:36.170]  [SPEAKER_02]: old letters, old databases, a listing of all the other files on the entire computer.
[02:40:37.990 --> 02:40:46.770]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, why was this information inside this file that Prodigy was using?
[02:40:46.910 --> 02:40:47.990]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's quite simple.
[02:40:48.410 --> 02:40:49.430]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's quite simple.
[02:40:49.570 --> 02:40:51.790]  [SPEAKER_02]: These were MS-DOS machines.
[02:40:53.370 --> 02:41:02.310]  [SPEAKER_02]: And it's the nature of that particular operating system to not erase the data after an old file has been erased.
[02:41:02.410 --> 02:41:09.510]  [SPEAKER_02]: In other words, when you erase a file, you simply erase the name of the file, but the data is still there.
[02:41:10.850 --> 02:41:13.470]  [SPEAKER_02]: And it's there until another file writes over it.
[02:41:14.650 --> 02:41:22.270]  [SPEAKER_02]: And so until that Prodigy file, known as stage.dat, had written over it, that old data would still be there.
[02:41:22.510 --> 02:41:27.270]  [SPEAKER_02]: So, yeah, you could say, well, Prodigy didn't do anything wrong.
[02:41:28.990 --> 02:41:37.670]  [SPEAKER_02]: They simply requested a certain amount of space on your hard drive, and within that space was bits and pieces of your old data.
[02:41:37.830 --> 02:41:45.030]  [SPEAKER_02]: But, folks, how many of you knew that that was how it worked?
[02:41:45.030 --> 02:41:53.250]  [SPEAKER_02]: How many of you knew that when Prodigy did this, they could conceivably, conceivably, have access to all of this information?
[02:41:54.290 --> 02:41:58.710]  [SPEAKER_02]: All it would take would be somebody at Prodigy looking at your file a little closer.
[02:42:01.050 --> 02:42:05.910]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, imagine if you were, say, Dan Quayle or somebody.
[02:42:06.910 --> 02:42:08.450]  [SPEAKER_02]: Pick a name out of a hat.
[02:42:09.750 --> 02:42:12.510]  [SPEAKER_02]: And Dan Quayle subscribed to Prodigy.
[02:42:12.890 --> 02:42:16.010]  [SPEAKER_02]: And Dan Quayle had a file known as stage.dat.
[02:42:19.200 --> 02:42:23.400]  [SPEAKER_02]: And one of you worked at Prodigy and knew that Dan Quayle had this file.
[02:42:23.660 --> 02:42:29.920]  [SPEAKER_02]: Would you not be rather tempted to take a closer look at his stage.dat file?
[02:42:31.260 --> 02:42:44.540]  [SPEAKER_02]: And when you did, you would see bits and pieces of his personal letters and names of his other files, and then you'd be able to program your computer to access those files and so on and so on.
[02:42:47.390 --> 02:42:51.270]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, suppose you're a criminal or a suspected criminal.
[02:42:53.490 --> 02:43:01.350]  [SPEAKER_02]: Do you think law enforcement might be tempted to ask Prodigy to look a little closer at your computer since they have the capability of doing that?
[02:43:02.810 --> 02:43:06.070]  [SPEAKER_02]: There's a lot of questions to ask there and a lot of disturbing trends.
[02:43:07.730 --> 02:43:28.510]  [SPEAKER_02]: And since this particular kind of computer system that Prodigy is using seems to be what the future holds for us, or at least that's the way it's been promoted, we had better start asking those questions now before this becomes the way it's done.
[02:43:31.430 --> 02:43:46.590]  [SPEAKER_02]: Like I said, it's a scary prospect if we move into the future without education, without seeing that every technical advance can have repercussions and that technology can be used against individuals.
[02:43:47.650 --> 02:43:51.910]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's something that the only way we can learn is by
[02:43:55.540 --> 02:43:57.480]  [SPEAKER_02]: getting all the information we can.
[02:43:59.420 --> 02:44:04.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: And here at WBAI we're determined to get that information out.
[02:44:04.520 --> 02:44:20.380]  [SPEAKER_02]: Please give us a call now 212-279-3400 and show your support for this radio station show your support for the protection of the individual in whatever way possible.
[02:44:20.820 --> 02:44:25.340]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know ten years ago we weren't even talking about this kind of thing on the radio.
[02:44:27.420 --> 02:44:30.500]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I wonder what we will be talking about ten years from now.
[02:44:31.340 --> 02:44:33.580]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know who knows what kind of things will be happening then.
[02:44:33.700 --> 02:44:36.680]  [SPEAKER_02]: But we have the obligation to stay on top of the situation.
[02:44:36.860 --> 02:44:40.920]  [SPEAKER_02]: We have the obligation to learn as quickly as things change.
[02:44:41.880 --> 02:44:44.400]  [SPEAKER_02]: And to interpret things
[02:44:48.580 --> 02:44:56.620]  [SPEAKER_02]: so that those of you in one particular world will see how something in this world pertains to them.
[02:44:59.960 --> 02:45:02.560]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's extremely important not to lose sight of that.
[02:45:04.000 --> 02:45:23.300]  [SPEAKER_02]: 212-279-3400 Remember everybody that calls in and pledges no matter what amount you pledge will get a free copy of 2600 magazine The Hacker Quarterly which has been publishing since 1984 appropriately enough and hopefully will be continuing well into the future.
[02:45:24.860 --> 02:45:39.400]  [SPEAKER_02]: For those of you that want to pledge a large amount of money we still have a year of unlimited admission for two people to the New Community Cinema in Huntington, Long Island.
[02:45:39.500 --> 02:45:44.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's for a $500 pledge and it's worth a lot more than that.
[02:45:44.640 --> 02:45:54.740]  [SPEAKER_02]: You can figure it out too if you want to go to that place every night and every day for two people.
[02:45:55.000 --> 02:45:57.340]  [SPEAKER_02]: So for $500 pledge you can get that.
[02:45:57.960 --> 02:46:28.520]  [SPEAKER_02]: We also have a course at the Learning Center for the Fall Semester that's October through January courses in community planning ecology feminism humor that's for a pledge of $150 you can get that in addition to the free copy of 2600 and the one year of the WBAI That's one option.
[02:46:29.020 --> 02:46:30.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: There are many options.
[02:46:30.400 --> 02:46:33.540]  [SPEAKER_02]: You can pledge virtually any amount that exists.
[02:46:35.820 --> 02:46:38.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: And every last one of them counts.
[02:46:38.480 --> 02:46:41.020]  [SPEAKER_02]: Every last one of them helps us get a little bit closer.
[02:46:44.490 --> 02:46:46.330]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, there's a lot going on out there.
[02:46:46.530 --> 02:46:47.310]  [SPEAKER_02]: A lot happening.
[02:46:51.090 --> 02:46:57.910]  [SPEAKER_02]: And we all owe it to ourselves to stay as on top of the situation as possible.
[02:46:58.650 --> 02:46:59.830]  [SPEAKER_02]: What else do we have here?
[02:46:59.970 --> 02:47:04.090]  [SPEAKER_02]: We have Fifty Ways to Fight Censorship.
[02:47:06.130 --> 02:47:09.190]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's a book available for a pledge of $85.
[02:47:13.510 --> 02:47:14.310]  [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I'm sorry.
[02:47:14.390 --> 02:47:14.850]  [SPEAKER_02]: I was wrong.
[02:47:15.950 --> 02:47:16.470]  [SPEAKER_02]: $65.
[02:47:20.090 --> 02:47:22.990]  [SPEAKER_02]: $65, you can get the book Fifty Ways to Fight Censorship.
[02:47:22.990 --> 02:47:32.090]  [SPEAKER_02]: For a pledge of $75, you can get a three-casset kit called Media Censorship and the First Amendment.
[02:47:32.210 --> 02:47:35.670]  [SPEAKER_02]: And this is all stuff that will last forever.
[02:47:35.910 --> 02:47:37.290]  [SPEAKER_02]: It will always be pertinent.
[02:47:37.670 --> 02:47:40.710]  [SPEAKER_02]: Always be important and timely.
[02:47:42.490 --> 02:47:44.390]  [SPEAKER_02]: As long as the First Amendment is around.
[02:47:46.550 --> 02:47:49.710]  [SPEAKER_02]: We also have T-shirts and tote bags and baseball caps.
[02:47:50.050 --> 02:47:50.750]  [SPEAKER_02]: Take your pick.
[02:47:51.130 --> 02:47:52.210]  [SPEAKER_02]: We have all those kind of things.
[02:47:53.210 --> 02:47:55.150]  [SPEAKER_02]: But it's not that so much.
[02:47:55.150 --> 02:47:59.430]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's what you're getting back over the airwaves that matters.
[02:47:59.730 --> 02:48:00.970]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's a strong signal.
[02:48:02.230 --> 02:48:03.350]  [SPEAKER_02]: Strong programming.
[02:48:06.270 --> 02:48:08.050]  [SPEAKER_02]: And diversity, variety.
[02:48:08.410 --> 02:48:08.950]  [SPEAKER_02]: That kind of thing.
[02:48:09.050 --> 02:48:09.710]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's what's important.
[02:48:09.710 --> 02:48:12.770]  [SPEAKER_02]: And 212-279-3400.
[02:48:12.870 --> 02:48:13.110]  [SPEAKER_02]: Let's see.
[02:48:13.230 --> 02:48:13.950]  [SPEAKER_02]: One more call.
[02:48:14.090 --> 02:48:14.910]  [SPEAKER_02]: One more call come in.
[02:48:15.050 --> 02:48:19.430]  [SPEAKER_02]: Because we want to hear from some listeners.
[02:48:19.430 --> 02:48:22.330]  [SPEAKER_02]: We want to read some more bits of information.
[02:48:22.530 --> 02:48:23.550]  [SPEAKER_02]: Of which we have plenty.
[02:48:24.810 --> 02:48:29.130]  [SPEAKER_02]: 212-279-3400 is our telephone number.
[02:48:30.970 --> 02:48:32.930]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, yeah, we've been doing this for a while.
[02:48:33.110 --> 02:48:35.110]  [SPEAKER_02]: Since 1960, I believe.
[02:48:35.270 --> 02:48:38.550]  [SPEAKER_02]: We've been on the air asking for your support.
[02:48:40.250 --> 02:48:42.410]  [SPEAKER_02]: And our listeners have not let us down.
[02:48:42.630 --> 02:48:45.430]  [SPEAKER_02]: They have a long history of not letting us down.
[02:48:48.830 --> 02:48:50.430]  [SPEAKER_02]: 212-279-3400.
[02:48:50.890 --> 02:48:53.330]  [SPEAKER_02]: We want to thank people for calling in.
[02:48:55.130 --> 02:48:57.690]  [SPEAKER_02]: We want to thank those of you that are considering calling in.
[02:48:57.730 --> 02:49:00.650]  [SPEAKER_02]: And we'll no doubt do so in the moments ahead.
[02:49:01.290 --> 02:49:04.570]  [SPEAKER_02]: And if you want to be on the radio, 212-279-3407.
[02:49:04.710 --> 02:49:06.850]  [SPEAKER_02]: We'll be taking questions in just a couple of minutes.
[02:49:08.970 --> 02:49:16.870]  [SPEAKER_02]: This is a piece of new music from what's left of Big Audio Dynamite known as B.A.D.
[02:49:16.970 --> 02:49:17.370]  [SPEAKER_02]: 2.
[02:49:18.590 --> 02:49:19.990]  [SPEAKER_02]: We'll be back in a moment.
[02:49:23.070 --> 02:49:26.890]  [SPEAKER_32]: If I had my time again Jingle
[02:49:32.970 --> 02:50:12.590]  [SPEAKER_32]: thing Even when I was the blind For the heartache and the pain That I caused throughout my years How I learned to be your man Through the laughter and the tears Situation I'll win Rush for a change about it I can't grow up so I give in Gotta get myself right out of here Now I'm fully grown.
[02:50:14.190 --> 02:50:16.550]  [SPEAKER_32]: And I know where it's at.
[02:50:18.570 --> 02:50:20.670]  [SPEAKER_32]: Somehow I'll stay thin.
[02:50:22.090 --> 02:50:24.610]  [SPEAKER_32]: While the other guys got fat.
[02:50:26.030 --> 02:50:28.330]  [SPEAKER_32]: All the chances that I've blown.
[02:50:30.150 --> 02:50:32.510]  [SPEAKER_32]: And the time that I've been down.
[02:50:34.110 --> 02:50:36.650]  [SPEAKER_32]: I didn't get too high.
[02:50:36.650 --> 02:50:40.670]  [SPEAKER_32]: I kept my feet on the ground.
[02:50:42.350 --> 02:50:44.230]  [SPEAKER_32]: Situation I'll win.
[02:50:45.430 --> 02:50:48.390]  [SPEAKER_32]: Rush for the change of atmosphere.
[02:50:59.460 --> 02:51:00.620]  [SPEAKER_42]: Oh, it's delightful.
[02:51:00.920 --> 02:51:01.260]  [SPEAKER_42]: Delightful.
[02:51:01.300 --> 02:51:02.200]  Rush for...
[02:51:07.150 --> 02:51:09.470]  [SPEAKER_42]: I wish I could sing like that.
[02:51:09.590 --> 02:51:10.930]  [SPEAKER_42]: Not everything's singing, you know.
[02:51:11.070 --> 02:51:14.090]  [SPEAKER_42]: The only important thing these days is rhythm and melody.
[02:51:14.270 --> 02:51:17.570]  [SPEAKER_42]: Rhythm and melody.
[02:52:08.000 --> 02:52:10.900]  [SPEAKER_32]: And of all my friends.
[02:52:12.020 --> 02:52:14.520]  [SPEAKER_32]: You've been the best to me.
[02:52:16.420 --> 02:52:18.640]  [SPEAKER_32]: Soon will be the day.
[02:52:19.800 --> 02:52:23.140]  [SPEAKER_32]: When I will pay you handsomely.
[02:52:24.380 --> 02:52:26.340]  [SPEAKER_32]: Broken heart to heart to man.
[02:52:27.840 --> 02:52:30.060]  [SPEAKER_32]: No, I have my share.
[02:52:32.000 --> 02:52:35.380]  [SPEAKER_32]: But life just carries on.
[02:52:36.180 --> 02:52:38.420]  [SPEAKER_32]: Even when I'm not there.
[02:52:40.280 --> 02:52:42.280]  [SPEAKER_32]: Situation I'll win.
[02:52:43.040 --> 02:52:46.720]  [SPEAKER_32]: Rush for the change of atmosphere.
[02:52:48.080 --> 02:52:50.120]  [SPEAKER_32]: I can't go on so I give in.
[02:52:51.260 --> 02:52:54.780]  [SPEAKER_32]: Gotta get myself right out of here.
[02:52:55.800 --> 02:52:57.940]  [SPEAKER_32]: Situation I'll win.
[02:52:58.860 --> 02:53:02.360]  [SPEAKER_32]: Rush for the change of atmosphere.
[02:53:03.440 --> 02:53:05.840]  [SPEAKER_32]: I can't go on so I give in.
[02:53:05.840 --> 02:53:10.820]  [SPEAKER_32]: Gotta get myself right out of here.
[02:53:12.100 --> 02:53:15.200]  [SPEAKER_32]: Gotta get myself right.
[02:53:16.060 --> 02:53:19.140]  [SPEAKER_32]: Gotta get myself right.
[02:53:19.860 --> 02:53:23.120]  [SPEAKER_32]: Gotta get myself right.
[02:53:23.260 --> 02:53:23.260]  Gotta get myself right.
[02:53:24.060 --> 02:53:26.580]  [SPEAKER_32]: Out of here.
[02:53:28.360 --> 02:53:30.940]  [SPEAKER_32]: Gotta get myself right.
[02:53:31.680 --> 02:53:34.840]  [SPEAKER_32]: Gotta get myself right.
[02:53:34.840 --> 02:53:38.920]  [SPEAKER_32]: Gotta get myself right.
[02:53:39.900 --> 02:53:42.360]  [SPEAKER_31]: I don't hear
[02:54:21.550 --> 02:54:24.330]  [SPEAKER_31]: a thing.
[02:54:25.090 --> 02:54:32.260]  [SPEAKER_31]: When the air is so red, high and clear.
[02:54:33.300 --> 02:54:36.680]  [SPEAKER_32]: Rush for the change of atmosphere.
[02:54:50.720 --> 02:54:56.320]  [SPEAKER_31]: Rush for the change of atmosphere.
[02:55:01.750 --> 02:55:03.630]  [SPEAKER_31]: Good luck, dear.
[02:55:14.490 --> 02:55:17.930]  [SPEAKER_31]: Rush for the change of atmosphere.
[02:55:29.760 --> 02:55:31.120]  [SPEAKER_31]: Cold luck, dear.
[02:55:41.990 --> 02:55:44.810]  [SPEAKER_31]: You're far and clear.
[02:55:46.070 --> 02:55:51.390]  [SPEAKER_31]: Rush for the change of atmosphere.
[02:56:00.060 --> 02:56:04.240]  [SPEAKER_31]: The first sentence is the first sentence.
[02:56:04.240 --> 02:56:07.340]  And this is the first sentence.
[02:56:07.760 --> 02:56:08.300]  [SPEAKER_32]: And this is the first sentence.
[02:56:08.300 --> 02:56:08.400]  [SPEAKER_32]: And this is the first sentence.
[02:56:08.400 --> 02:56:08.520]  [SPEAKER_32]: And this is the first sentence.
[02:56:08.520 --> 02:56:08.520]  And this is the first sentence.
[02:56:08.520 --> 02:56:08.540]  [SPEAKER_32]: And this is the first sentence.
[02:56:08.540 --> 02:56:08.540]  And this is the first sentence.
[02:56:08.540 --> 02:56:08.540]  And this is the first sentence.
[02:56:08.540 --> 02:56:08.560]  [SPEAKER_32]: And this is the first sentence.
[02:56:08.560 --> 02:56:08.560]  And this is the first sentence.
[02:56:08.560 --> 02:56:08.580]  [SPEAKER_32]: And this is the first sentence.
[02:56:08.580 --> 02:56:08.580]  And this is the first sentence.
[02:56:08.580 --> 02:56:09.760]  [SPEAKER_32]: And this is the first sentence.
[02:56:09.760 --> 02:56:09.760]  And this is the first sentence.
[02:56:09.760 --> 02:56:09.760]  And this is the first sentence.
[02:56:09.760 --> 02:56:09.760]  And this is the first sentence.
[02:56:10.080 --> 02:56:10.080]  And this is the first sentence.
[02:56:10.080 --> 02:56:10.080]  And this is the first sentence.
[02:56:10.080 --> 02:56:12.040]  [SPEAKER_32]: And this is the first sentence.
[02:56:20.350 --> 02:56:22.330]  [SPEAKER_35]: And this is the first sentence.
[02:56:22.350 --> 02:56:22.690]  And this is the first sentence.
[02:56:23.650 --> 02:56:25.650]  [SPEAKER_35]: And this is the first sentence.
[02:56:26.030 --> 02:56:26.690]  [SPEAKER_35]: And this is the first sentence.
[02:56:26.990 --> 02:56:27.350]  [SPEAKER_35]: And this is the first sentence.
[02:56:37.650 --> 02:56:38.310]  [SPEAKER_31]: And this is the first sentence.
[02:56:38.310 --> 02:56:38.310]  And this is the first sentence.
[02:56:38.310 --> 02:56:40.370]  [SPEAKER_31]: And this is the first sentence.
[02:56:40.370 --> 02:56:40.650]  And this is the first sentence.
[02:56:40.650 --> 02:56:41.030]  And this is the first sentence.
[02:56:41.090 --> 02:56:42.810]  [SPEAKER_31]: And this is the first
sentence.
[02:56:44.070 --> 02:56:44.330]  And this is the first
[02:57:06.140 --> 02:57:12.960]  [SPEAKER_02]: And that's Mick Jones and the remnants of his band, Big Audio Dynamite.
[02:57:13.820 --> 02:57:16.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: With their new name, Big Audio Dynamite 2.
[02:57:18.920 --> 02:57:20.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: And a change of atmosphere.
[02:57:21.760 --> 02:57:24.420]  [SPEAKER_02]: There's a change of atmosphere coming along here.
[02:57:26.300 --> 02:57:31.420]  [SPEAKER_02]: We'll return in about 15 minutes with the rest of Off the Hook.
[02:57:31.580 --> 02:57:33.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: We're on the air until 6 o'clock in the morning.
[02:57:34.000 --> 02:57:37.520]  [SPEAKER_02]: And we'll be taking phone calls at 212-279-3407.
[02:57:37.520 --> 02:57:41.420]  [SPEAKER_02]: Taking pledges at 212-279-3400.
[02:57:42.100 --> 02:57:46.480]  [SPEAKER_02]: We want to thank Michael from Urochelle for his generous donation.
[02:57:47.360 --> 02:57:49.300]  [SPEAKER_02]: Night Shift is usually on at this time.
[02:57:49.300 --> 02:57:53.180]  [SPEAKER_02]: For the next 15 minutes, we're going to be hearing something different.
[02:57:53.180 --> 02:57:56.320]  [SPEAKER_02]: We'll be back at about 4 o'clock, so stay tuned.
[02:57:56.660 --> 02:58:03.680]  [SPEAKER_27]: Yeah, I just want to say that I feel just a complete antithesis of how he felt.
[02:58:03.940 --> 02:58:07.560]  [SPEAKER_27]: I welcome the light touch.
[02:58:07.980 --> 02:58:08.740]  [SPEAKER_27]: Thank you.
[02:58:09.100 --> 02:58:10.580]  [SPEAKER_27]: And I find you very...
[02:58:10.580 --> 02:58:11.080]  [SPEAKER_15]: Entertaining.
[02:58:11.200 --> 02:58:11.640]  [SPEAKER_27]: ...employable.
[02:58:11.860 --> 02:58:16.300]  [SPEAKER_27]: And if he's not into the light touch...
[02:58:16.300 --> 02:58:19.640]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, you can listen to most of WBAI's stuff is...
[02:58:19.640 --> 02:58:20.160]  [SPEAKER_27]: Eggheads.
[02:58:20.460 --> 02:58:38.660]  [SPEAKER_27]: You know, what happens is some of these young black people, they think because they have a little bit of knowledge that everybody else is an egghead and they only want to talk about the academic things to show off their knowledge.
[02:58:39.460 --> 02:58:41.280]  [SPEAKER_15]: You think only black people do this?
[02:58:41.420 --> 02:58:41.760]  [SPEAKER_15]: What's that?
[02:58:41.900 --> 02:58:42.880]  [SPEAKER_15]: Only black people do this?
[02:58:42.880 --> 02:58:44.820]  [SPEAKER_27]: Well, he was a black person.
[02:58:44.960 --> 02:58:45.360]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah.
[02:58:45.640 --> 02:59:01.980]  [SPEAKER_27]: Well, I find that that's the kind of criticism they're always giving because they get a little bit of knowledge and they have to show off their knowledge and they can't handle a balanced light touch.
[02:59:02.160 --> 02:59:02.560]  [SPEAKER_27]: All right.
[02:59:02.560 --> 02:59:04.400]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, I'm not quite sure what you're saying.
[02:59:04.400 --> 02:59:10.380]  [SPEAKER_15]: You're saying that, now, are you saying that other than blacks do this or are you, this is something you find that happens?
[02:59:10.380 --> 02:59:11.120]  [SPEAKER_27]: But he was black.
[02:59:11.320 --> 02:59:12.680]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, yeah, but that's not what I'm asking.
[02:59:12.680 --> 02:59:28.700]  [SPEAKER_27]: So I'm just commenting on why I feel he, you know, reacted that way because he's so full of himself because he has a little bit of knowledge that he can't handle the light touch.
[02:59:28.700 --> 02:59:33.500]  [SPEAKER_27]: Why is that other guy, Chris, is that Chris that's laughing like crazy?
[02:59:34.000 --> 02:59:35.220]  [SPEAKER_15]: For the most part, yeah.
[02:59:35.220 --> 02:59:35.720]  [SPEAKER_15]: For the most part, yeah.
[02:59:36.280 --> 02:59:37.260]  [SPEAKER_27]: What's your name?
[02:59:37.720 --> 02:59:38.300]  [SPEAKER_15]: My name?
[02:59:38.620 --> 02:59:38.820]  [SPEAKER_27]: Yeah.
[02:59:39.000 --> 02:59:39.760]  [SPEAKER_15]: My name is Mike.
[02:59:40.180 --> 02:59:40.520]  [SPEAKER_27]: Mike?
[02:59:40.720 --> 02:59:40.880]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yes.
[02:59:41.640 --> 02:59:44.880]  [SPEAKER_27]: Well, isn't Curtis on sometimes at this time of this?
[02:59:44.880 --> 02:59:46.280]  [SPEAKER_15]: No, he's on before us.
[02:59:46.540 --> 02:59:47.740]  [SPEAKER_27]: Oh, he's on before you?
[02:59:47.740 --> 02:59:48.060]  [SPEAKER_27]: Yes.
[02:59:48.280 --> 02:59:48.480]  [SPEAKER_27]: Uh-huh.
[02:59:48.740 --> 02:59:52.240]  [SPEAKER_27]: So, but why does Chris think that that's so funny?
[02:59:52.500 --> 02:59:53.280]  [SPEAKER_15]: What's so funny?
[02:59:53.400 --> 02:59:56.100]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, he thinks it's funny because I'm black and you just made a comment.
[02:59:56.100 --> 02:59:57.520]  [SPEAKER_27]: Oh, that's interesting.
[02:59:58.920 --> 03:00:05.900]  [SPEAKER_27]: But the fact is that I noticed that a lot of black people do that.
[03:00:06.080 --> 03:00:11.480]  [SPEAKER_27]: They get so carried away because they want to show off their knowledge.
[03:00:11.680 --> 03:00:13.800]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, can I offer you another...
[03:00:13.800 --> 03:00:14.680]  [SPEAKER_15]: Can I offer you...
[03:00:14.680 --> 03:00:16.060]  [SPEAKER_27]: Mike, you know...
[03:00:16.060 --> 03:00:20.060]  [SPEAKER_27]: Sidney Smith, I feel he's right on, you know.
[03:00:20.860 --> 03:00:21.760]  [SPEAKER_27]: Sidney is right on.
[03:00:21.800 --> 03:00:22.520]  [SPEAKER_27]: He's the younger one.
[03:00:22.640 --> 03:00:23.220]  [SPEAKER_27]: Are you young?
[03:00:23.360 --> 03:00:25.060]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, she's talking about you, Mike.
[03:00:25.260 --> 03:00:27.900]  [SPEAKER_14]: She's saying you are full of yourself and you are, you know...
[03:00:27.900 --> 03:00:32.420]  [SPEAKER_15]: Chris, if anybody at this station were full of themselves, it would definitely be you.
[03:00:32.420 --> 03:00:33.180]  [SPEAKER_27]: I don't hear you.
[03:00:33.460 --> 03:00:35.660]  [SPEAKER_15]: No, I was talking to my co-host.
[03:00:35.660 --> 03:00:35.700]  [SPEAKER_27]: Oh.
[03:00:35.700 --> 03:00:38.260]  [SPEAKER_27]: Well, but is Chris black too?
[03:00:38.420 --> 03:00:39.380]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yes, he's black too.
[03:00:39.580 --> 03:00:41.900]  [SPEAKER_27]: Oh, that's why he's hysterical.
[03:00:42.140 --> 03:00:45.380]  [SPEAKER_27]: Well, but look, I'm just giving you my opinion.
[03:00:45.740 --> 03:00:46.100]  [SPEAKER_27]: Uh-huh.
[03:00:46.160 --> 03:00:51.460]  [SPEAKER_27]: And my opinion is based on the fact that I've seen this happen time and again with the young people.
[03:00:51.680 --> 03:00:52.600]  [SPEAKER_14]: I think she's right.
[03:00:52.840 --> 03:00:54.320]  [SPEAKER_27]: Because they have a little bit of knowledge.
[03:00:54.720 --> 03:00:55.680]  [SPEAKER_27]: Obviously, I don't think she's right, Chris.
[03:00:55.700 --> 03:01:02.700]  [SPEAKER_27]: They have to do, you know, or show off something, you know, something serious and they're not balanced.
[03:01:03.080 --> 03:01:04.660]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, I could tell you this.
[03:01:04.800 --> 03:01:11.600]  [SPEAKER_15]: I could say several things in response to what you're saying, but I only have like four minutes left, so I probably couldn't say as much as I was saying.
[03:01:11.600 --> 03:01:35.320]  [SPEAKER_15]: But, in defense of these quote-unquote young black people who have, as you put it, a little bit of intelligence and want to show it off, I think that in a reversal situation that there are a number of people who have less intelligence of many other races who feel they want to show it off.
[03:01:35.460 --> 03:01:40.000]  [SPEAKER_15]: And in my opinion, if you have something to say, I think you should say it.
[03:01:40.000 --> 03:01:41.520]  [SPEAKER_15]: And that's what I support.
[03:01:41.820 --> 03:01:59.140]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, I think that the man who called us, I mean, while I will defend my show and what we're doing, and even my somewhat full-of-himself partner, I still think that what he had to say is valid, because there are some people that want to hear something serious.
[03:01:59.160 --> 03:02:03.680]  [SPEAKER_15]: But what I would say is that he should listen to this station pretty much most of the day.
[03:02:03.960 --> 03:02:07.240]  [SPEAKER_15]: Late at night, like Curtis and Clue, Curtis and Clue are pretty light, too.
[03:02:08.160 --> 03:02:08.900]  [SPEAKER_15]: Don't you think?
[03:02:08.900 --> 03:02:12.860]  [SPEAKER_27]: Well, as a matter of fact, I've been listening to this station for 30 years.
[03:02:16.740 --> 03:02:17.060]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well...
[03:02:17.060 --> 03:02:17.280]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah?
[03:02:17.580 --> 03:02:17.900]  [SPEAKER_13]: Chris?
[03:02:18.220 --> 03:02:18.360]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah?
[03:02:18.600 --> 03:02:18.880]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah?
[03:02:19.700 --> 03:02:20.020]  [SPEAKER_13]: Chris?
[03:02:20.610 --> 03:02:20.920]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah?
[03:02:21.420 --> 03:02:21.960]  [SPEAKER_13]: Are you there?
[03:02:22.140 --> 03:02:22.360]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah?
[03:02:23.040 --> 03:02:23.360]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah?
[03:02:23.940 --> 03:02:23.980]  Yeah?
[03:02:24.020 --> 03:02:24.560]  [SPEAKER_15]: Are you there?
[03:02:25.200 --> 03:02:25.480]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah.
[03:02:26.820 --> 03:02:27.600]  [SPEAKER_15]: So, Chris, we've got...
[03:02:27.600 --> 03:02:28.380]  [SPEAKER_15]: What's up with that horn, man?
[03:02:28.380 --> 03:02:28.820]  [SPEAKER_15]: I don't know.
[03:02:29.140 --> 03:02:30.480]  [SPEAKER_15]: So, we've got about 10 minutes.
[03:02:30.600 --> 03:02:31.560]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, that's all we have is 10 minutes.
[03:02:31.580 --> 03:02:32.560]  [SPEAKER_15]: So, this is the very short version.
[03:02:32.560 --> 03:02:34.180]  [SPEAKER_14]: This is what happens when you don't give money to our show.
[03:02:34.440 --> 03:02:34.940]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's right.
[03:02:35.100 --> 03:02:36.200]  [SPEAKER_15]: We get knocked off the air.
[03:02:36.280 --> 03:02:39.120]  [SPEAKER_15]: We've been knocked off the air because we didn't raise enough money last week.
[03:02:39.120 --> 03:02:39.520]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's right.
[03:02:39.600 --> 03:02:41.060]  [SPEAKER_15]: So, I sincerely hope that you help.
[03:02:41.360 --> 03:02:43.820]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, you've got to start calling right now.
[03:02:44.040 --> 03:02:44.260]  [SPEAKER_15]: Definitely.
[03:02:45.180 --> 03:02:47.100]  [SPEAKER_15]: Two, seven, nine, three, four hundred is the number.
[03:02:47.280 --> 03:02:47.420]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah.
[03:02:47.680 --> 03:02:48.620]  [SPEAKER_14]: Because Night Shift is...
[03:02:48.620 --> 03:02:49.760]  [SPEAKER_15]: Night Shift was the show.
[03:02:49.960 --> 03:02:50.060]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah.
[03:02:50.060 --> 03:02:52.100]  [SPEAKER_15]: If you pledge money, we might be back next week.
[03:02:52.660 --> 03:02:52.820]  [SPEAKER_14]: Exactly.
[03:02:52.820 --> 03:02:54.060]  [SPEAKER_14]: If not, Chris will be gone.
[03:02:54.280 --> 03:02:55.500]  [SPEAKER_14]: I'll be gone and...
[03:02:55.500 --> 03:02:56.040]  [SPEAKER_14]: That's it.
[03:02:56.220 --> 03:02:58.020]  [SPEAKER_14]: And then I guess more blacks will be running the station.
[03:02:58.140 --> 03:02:59.000]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, the blacks are taking over.
[03:02:59.040 --> 03:02:59.520]  [SPEAKER_14]: They're taking over.
[03:02:59.520 --> 03:03:00.520]  [SPEAKER_15]: They're taking over the station.
[03:03:00.520 --> 03:03:00.840]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah.
[03:03:01.020 --> 03:03:03.180]  [SPEAKER_15]: And just give us a little bit of intelligence.
[03:03:03.440 --> 03:03:03.540]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah.
[03:03:04.690 --> 03:03:05.600]  [SPEAKER_15]: We're too much intelligence.
[03:03:05.840 --> 03:03:08.380]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, what will happen is that we're going to just get uppity.
[03:03:08.480 --> 03:03:08.860]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know what I'm saying?
[03:03:08.880 --> 03:03:09.060]  [SPEAKER_14]: Uh huh.
[03:03:10.280 --> 03:03:13.460]  [SPEAKER_14]: We need those contributions because, you know...
[03:03:13.460 --> 03:03:13.860]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's right.
[03:03:13.940 --> 03:03:15.200]  [SPEAKER_15]: We've got to stop that takeover.
[03:03:18.920 --> 03:03:19.600]  [SPEAKER_15]: So, what happened?
[03:03:19.600 --> 03:03:21.880]  [SPEAKER_15]: There's all these people calling on 279-3407.
[03:03:22.000 --> 03:03:23.600]  [SPEAKER_15]: Now, are these people calling for Eric's show?
[03:03:23.700 --> 03:03:24.980]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, they're calling for Eric's show.
[03:03:25.020 --> 03:03:25.920]  [SPEAKER_15]: They're calling for Eric's show.
[03:03:25.920 --> 03:03:26.930]  [SPEAKER_14]: What, uh...
[03:03:27.480 --> 03:03:27.700]  [SPEAKER_15]: What?
[03:03:27.760 --> 03:03:28.800]  [SPEAKER_14]: What's that cool tune that you wrote?
[03:03:29.100 --> 03:03:29.740]  [SPEAKER_14]: The cool thing?
[03:03:29.940 --> 03:03:30.100]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah.
[03:03:31.000 --> 03:03:32.640]  [SPEAKER_14]: People like when we do cool stuff, don't you?
[03:03:33.240 --> 03:03:34.700]  [SPEAKER_14]: So, how's it going out there, everybody?
[03:03:34.780 --> 03:03:34.940]  [SPEAKER_14]: Huh?
[03:03:35.620 --> 03:03:36.960]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's 3.53 AM.
[03:03:38.360 --> 03:03:41.740]  [SPEAKER_14]: We've been allotted 15 minutes because that's all we got, man.
[03:03:42.220 --> 03:03:42.780]  [SPEAKER_15]: No, we have...
[03:03:42.780 --> 03:03:45.160]  [SPEAKER_15]: Basically because we hear WBAI stick together.
[03:03:45.160 --> 03:03:45.660]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's why.
[03:03:45.780 --> 03:03:46.000]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yes.
[03:03:46.240 --> 03:03:46.460]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yes.
[03:03:48.380 --> 03:03:48.780]  [SPEAKER_14]: Mike...
[03:03:49.480 --> 03:03:49.880]  [SPEAKER_14]: Mike...
[03:03:49.880 --> 03:03:51.560]  [SPEAKER_14]: What's your place of James Bond, man?
[03:03:52.240 --> 03:03:54.770]  I'm sure.
[03:03:55.290 --> 03:03:55.990]  [SPEAKER_14]: You found it?
[03:03:56.050 --> 03:03:56.370]  [SPEAKER_14]: You got it?
[03:03:56.950 --> 03:03:57.350]  [SPEAKER_14]: Ooh.
[03:03:58.990 --> 03:04:03.010]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, anyway, the number is 279-3400, and we're all in a push here to raise some money.
[03:04:03.650 --> 03:04:05.530]  [SPEAKER_15]: Wasn't there someone who was gonna call and pledge something?
[03:04:05.750 --> 03:04:07.490]  [SPEAKER_15]: 279-3400, is that phone lit now?
[03:04:07.610 --> 03:04:08.070]  [SPEAKER_15]: I don't know.
[03:04:08.290 --> 03:04:08.930]  [SPEAKER_15]: Is that what's happening?
[03:04:09.270 --> 03:04:09.650]  [SPEAKER_15]: I don't know.
[03:04:09.830 --> 03:04:11.190]  [SPEAKER_15]: What was the tally before we came on?
[03:04:11.290 --> 03:04:13.310]  [SPEAKER_15]: Would it be great if we'd come on 15 minutes and raise some money?
[03:04:13.590 --> 03:04:14.070]  [SPEAKER_15]: That'd be great.
[03:04:14.170 --> 03:04:15.150]  [SPEAKER_15]: Wouldn't that make us look good?
[03:04:15.250 --> 03:04:15.930]  [SPEAKER_15]: That'd make us look good.
[03:04:15.990 --> 03:04:20.730]  [SPEAKER_15]: Don't those listeners who like us want to make us look good?
[03:04:21.090 --> 03:04:21.370]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah.
[03:04:22.210 --> 03:04:22.510]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah.
[03:04:24.190 --> 03:04:25.510]  [SPEAKER_14]: Everybody wants to make us look good.
[03:04:25.790 --> 03:04:26.150]  Yes.
[03:04:29.410 --> 03:04:29.730]  [SPEAKER_14]: Ooh.
[03:04:30.150 --> 03:04:30.850]  [SPEAKER_14]: What's that, Mike?
[03:04:31.290 --> 03:04:34.010]  [SPEAKER_14]: Let's do something that will be coming your way.
[03:04:34.250 --> 03:04:35.690]  [SPEAKER_14]: We're doing the whole show in 15 minutes.
[03:04:35.910 --> 03:04:36.290]  [SPEAKER_14]: That's right.
[03:04:37.690 --> 03:04:39.670]  [SPEAKER_14]: We were gonna play this at least a half an hour in.
[03:04:39.810 --> 03:04:41.290]  [SPEAKER_15]: I think we have maybe, what, six, seven minutes left?
[03:04:41.370 --> 03:04:41.670]  [SPEAKER_14]: What do you think?
[03:04:41.730 --> 03:04:43.630]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, we've got six and a half minutes left.
[03:04:43.730 --> 03:04:44.410]  [SPEAKER_14]: Six and a half minutes left.
[03:04:44.410 --> 03:04:44.450]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah.
[03:04:45.330 --> 03:04:47.870]  [SPEAKER_14]: We were allowed at 15 minutes when we got on it at 3.40.
[03:04:48.110 --> 03:04:50.430]  [SPEAKER_15]: So, it would have been really good if we were listening to the station before we came.
[03:04:50.830 --> 03:04:51.070]  [SPEAKER_15]: Then we...
[03:04:51.070 --> 03:04:51.390]  [SPEAKER_15]: Oh, yeah.
[03:04:51.530 --> 03:04:53.110]  [SPEAKER_14]: If we were listening to this, but we weren't doing that, were we?
[03:04:53.270 --> 03:04:53.730]  [SPEAKER_14]: We weren't doing that, no.
[03:04:53.850 --> 03:04:54.990]  [SPEAKER_14]: Because we don't listen to the station, do we?
[03:04:56.110 --> 03:04:56.350]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well...
[03:04:56.350 --> 03:04:56.370]  [SPEAKER_14]: Do we?
[03:04:56.370 --> 03:04:59.510]  [SPEAKER_14]: I wouldn't say we don't listen, but we listen to tapes.
[03:05:00.150 --> 03:05:00.890]  [SPEAKER_14]: Something like that.
[03:05:01.930 --> 03:05:02.770]  [SPEAKER_14]: What is this, Mike?
[03:05:04.210 --> 03:05:05.070]  [SPEAKER_14]: A little insanity?
[03:05:05.330 --> 03:05:05.750]  [SPEAKER_14]: I don't know.
[03:05:05.850 --> 03:05:06.870]  [SPEAKER_14]: It has something to do with something called...
[03:05:06.870 --> 03:05:09.550]  [SPEAKER_14]: If we clear the lines, will we get mad?
[03:05:10.270 --> 03:05:11.370]  [SPEAKER_14]: We're gonna clear all the lines.
[03:05:11.430 --> 03:05:12.090]  [SPEAKER_14]: See who's there.
[03:05:13.090 --> 03:05:14.250]  [SPEAKER_14]: It might be somebody we know.
[03:05:14.390 --> 03:05:14.930]  [SPEAKER_14]: Let's see who's there.
[03:05:15.410 --> 03:05:15.770]  [SPEAKER_14]: Go.
[03:05:16.330 --> 03:05:16.690]  [SPEAKER_04]: Hello?
[03:05:16.930 --> 03:05:17.170]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yes.
[03:05:17.510 --> 03:05:19.030]  [SPEAKER_04]: Hi, it occurred to me...
[03:05:19.030 --> 03:05:19.430]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
[03:05:19.630 --> 03:05:21.730]  [SPEAKER_04]: In regard to money...
[03:05:21.730 --> 03:05:21.910]  [SPEAKER_51]: Yeah.
[03:05:21.990 --> 03:05:26.750]  [SPEAKER_04]: It used to be a program where certain corporations would have to match whatever individuals contribute.
[03:05:27.030 --> 03:05:28.410]  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know whether that's still going on.
[03:05:29.250 --> 03:05:39.890]  [SPEAKER_04]: But it would be nicely ironic, for instance, if somebody out there working for, let's say, AT&T would pledge even a small amount, AT&T would have to contribute to this program.
[03:05:40.150 --> 03:05:41.610]  [SPEAKER_14]: That's a very good idea.
[03:05:41.710 --> 03:05:42.030]  [SPEAKER_14]: That's good.
[03:05:42.110 --> 03:05:44.290]  [SPEAKER_14]: But that'd be commercial corporate sponsors, right?
[03:05:44.510 --> 03:05:44.810]  [SPEAKER_04]: Right.
[03:05:44.950 --> 03:05:48.770]  [SPEAKER_04]: That did exist, I know, for IBM, IBM for one, and maybe other ones too.
[03:05:48.870 --> 03:05:50.330]  [SPEAKER_04]: It was a general program.
[03:05:50.450 --> 03:05:53.570]  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know what it was, whether it was federally subsidized or what.
[03:05:53.730 --> 03:05:53.870]  [SPEAKER_04]: Right.
[03:05:55.410 --> 03:05:57.170]  [SPEAKER_04]: Anyway, it was a thought.
[03:05:57.170 --> 03:06:02.470]  [SPEAKER_04]: It occurred to me when we were talking about the AT&T exclusives they seem to have on the local phone companies.
[03:06:04.430 --> 03:06:05.870]  [SPEAKER_04]: Also, I had another question.
[03:06:06.690 --> 03:06:07.410]  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know whether it's directly...
[03:06:07.410 --> 03:06:08.610]  [SPEAKER_15]: The tally just went up $25.
[03:06:08.970 --> 03:06:09.950]  [SPEAKER_15]: Look at that, look at that.
[03:06:10.070 --> 03:06:10.910]  [SPEAKER_15]: We just got $25.
[03:06:10.910 --> 03:06:29.430]  [SPEAKER_04]: I wonder if anybody out there is knowledgeable of a way to access, let's say, the computer system or at various cable TV companies to tell them to turn on, let's say, an addressable box to descramble your incoming signal from them.
[03:06:29.730 --> 03:06:34.010]  [SPEAKER_14]: I don't know, that's a question for the guy who's on our show.
[03:06:34.010 --> 03:06:35.790]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's right, the guy who's doing our time.
[03:06:35.790 --> 03:06:36.230]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yes.
[03:06:37.030 --> 03:06:38.070]  [SPEAKER_14]: So we can't answer that.
[03:06:38.170 --> 03:06:38.750]  [SPEAKER_14]: We can't answer that.
[03:06:38.850 --> 03:06:40.310]  [SPEAKER_14]: But if we can get another click, can you answer that?
[03:06:40.310 --> 03:06:42.190]  [SPEAKER_04]: I have a social security number, you want to take a crack at it?
[03:06:44.110 --> 03:06:44.870]  [SPEAKER_14]: Which one, is it yours?
[03:06:45.090 --> 03:06:45.470]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, mine.
[03:06:45.730 --> 03:06:45.970]  [SPEAKER_14]: Uh-huh.
[03:06:46.190 --> 03:06:47.130]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay, well thanks for your call.
[03:06:47.730 --> 03:06:48.010]  [SPEAKER_04]: 066.
[03:06:48.750 --> 03:06:49.030]  [SPEAKER_14]: 066?
[03:06:49.030 --> 03:06:49.390]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah.
[03:06:55.590 --> 03:06:57.130]  [SPEAKER_15]: Copper wire around it and broadcast it.
[03:06:57.130 --> 03:06:59.130]  [SPEAKER_21]: And I got all this space, we can definitely do it.
[03:06:59.170 --> 03:07:00.790]  [SPEAKER_14]: Oh man, let's make our own radio station.
[03:07:01.050 --> 03:07:02.290]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yes, with WFISH.
[03:07:02.810 --> 03:07:03.350]  [SPEAKER_14]: Oh man.
[03:07:03.510 --> 03:07:06.770]  [SPEAKER_14]: If anybody wants to call and say hello to us, it's 279-3407.
[03:07:07.450 --> 03:07:07.930]  [SPEAKER_14]: We can take one call.
[03:07:08.150 --> 03:07:08.770]  [SPEAKER_14]: There we go.
[03:07:08.950 --> 03:07:10.130]  [SPEAKER_14]: But Fish, man, how you doing, man?
[03:07:10.250 --> 03:07:10.830]  [SPEAKER_14]: I'm doing alright.
[03:07:11.650 --> 03:07:12.250]  [SPEAKER_14]: Oh man.
[03:07:12.530 --> 03:07:13.590]  [SPEAKER_14]: So what do you think of this tune, Fish?
[03:07:13.590 --> 03:07:14.890]  [SPEAKER_14]: So Fish, did you make your pledge yet?
[03:07:15.630 --> 03:07:18.410]  [SPEAKER_21]: I tried, but I'm all maxed out of my credit card.
[03:07:18.490 --> 03:07:19.330]  [SPEAKER_21]: No, they'll take cash.
[03:07:19.750 --> 03:07:20.650]  [SPEAKER_14]: They'll bill you, man.
[03:07:20.770 --> 03:07:21.430]  [SPEAKER_14]: They'll bill everybody.
[03:07:21.590 --> 03:07:22.050]  [SPEAKER_14]: You can send us a check.
[03:07:22.050 --> 03:07:22.830]  [SPEAKER_14]: Just say, I ain't paying.
[03:07:23.150 --> 03:07:23.990]  [SPEAKER_21]: I'll pledge if they bill me.
[03:07:24.150 --> 03:07:24.870]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, well, call.
[03:07:25.070 --> 03:07:26.050]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's 279-3400.
[03:07:26.090 --> 03:07:26.690]  [SPEAKER_14]: Fish, stay there.
[03:07:27.250 --> 03:07:28.050]  [SPEAKER_14]: Hello, you're on the air.
[03:07:29.030 --> 03:07:29.250]  Yeah.
[03:07:29.690 --> 03:07:29.930]  [SPEAKER_35]: Hello.
[03:07:30.610 --> 03:07:31.110]  [SPEAKER_35]: Fish, stay there.
[03:07:31.210 --> 03:07:35.670]  [SPEAKER_35]: I had a couple of things I figured I'd update you on that came up during the program tonight.
[03:07:36.410 --> 03:07:39.370]  [SPEAKER_15]: I tell you what, you should call back in like two minutes.
[03:07:40.530 --> 03:07:42.130]  [SPEAKER_22]: I thought it was too lucky to catch up.
[03:07:42.210 --> 03:07:43.270]  [SPEAKER_15]: Alright, well, actually, you know what?
[03:07:43.270 --> 03:07:43.990]  [SPEAKER_15]: You should just hang out.
[03:07:44.130 --> 03:07:44.610]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, just hang out.
[03:07:45.510 --> 03:07:46.350]  [SPEAKER_15]: Because we'll be gone.
[03:07:46.470 --> 03:07:47.310]  [SPEAKER_15]: You can get back into your show.
[03:07:47.410 --> 03:07:49.070]  [SPEAKER_15]: Eric, are you going to take calls when you come right back on?
[03:07:50.090 --> 03:07:51.850]  [SPEAKER_15]: Alright, then I guess you're going to have to hang out.
[03:07:51.850 --> 03:07:52.470]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay, fine.
[03:07:52.470 --> 03:07:53.170]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, you're going to have to hang out.
[03:07:54.530 --> 03:07:55.310]  [SPEAKER_15]: What's with this other show?
[03:07:55.310 --> 03:07:55.770]  [SPEAKER_15]: He just hung up.
[03:07:56.190 --> 03:07:56.790]  [SPEAKER_15]: He hung up.
[03:07:56.950 --> 03:07:58.230]  [SPEAKER_15]: We should hang out and he just...
[03:07:58.230 --> 03:07:59.230]  [SPEAKER_14]: Hello, you're on the air.
[03:07:59.450 --> 03:08:00.090]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yo, man.
[03:08:00.290 --> 03:08:00.790]  [SPEAKER_14]: Who's this?
[03:08:01.110 --> 03:08:03.290]  [SPEAKER_15]: This is the night shift, man.
[03:08:04.590 --> 03:08:05.290]  [SPEAKER_15]: Oh, no.
[03:08:05.430 --> 03:08:05.970]  [SPEAKER_15]: Who is this?
[03:08:06.450 --> 03:08:08.630]  [SPEAKER_17]: I did my pledge, Mr. Stickworks.
[03:08:08.970 --> 03:08:10.410]  [SPEAKER_15]: Hey, he did his pledge.
[03:08:10.630 --> 03:08:11.390]  [SPEAKER_15]: Hey, what's up, man?
[03:08:11.590 --> 03:08:12.070]  [SPEAKER_14]: What's up?
[03:08:12.310 --> 03:08:12.730]  [SPEAKER_14]: How are you?
[03:08:13.290 --> 03:08:13.650]  [SPEAKER_15]: Tired.
[03:08:14.090 --> 03:08:14.450]  [SPEAKER_14]: Tired?
[03:08:14.850 --> 03:08:15.110]  [SPEAKER_14]: Tired.
[03:08:15.150 --> 03:08:15.970]  [SPEAKER_14]: Hey, what's up?
[03:08:16.570 --> 03:08:17.230]  [SPEAKER_14]: I don't know, man.
[03:08:17.330 --> 03:08:18.190]  [SPEAKER_14]: Get some sleep, man.
[03:08:18.750 --> 03:08:19.070]  [SPEAKER_15]: Say what?
[03:08:19.070 --> 03:08:20.250]  [SPEAKER_15]: Alright, well, we've got our final minute.
[03:08:20.250 --> 03:08:21.470]  [SPEAKER_15]: Man, turn your phone on, man.
[03:08:21.550 --> 03:08:22.830]  [SPEAKER_15]: You've got to turn the radio down.
[03:08:22.970 --> 03:08:23.530]  [SPEAKER_15]: Turn your radio down.
[03:08:23.730 --> 03:08:24.130]  [SPEAKER_15]: Turn your radio down.
[03:08:24.130 --> 03:08:25.490]  [SPEAKER_15]: We've only got like...
[03:08:25.490 --> 03:08:26.190]  [SPEAKER_15]: Hold on.
[03:08:26.470 --> 03:08:27.190]  [SPEAKER_15]: Hello, you're on the air?
[03:08:27.410 --> 03:08:28.750]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, let me turn my phone down.
[03:08:28.910 --> 03:08:29.590]  [SPEAKER_15]: Oh, it's Monroe.
[03:08:29.810 --> 03:08:30.710]  [SPEAKER_14]: He's going to give something.
[03:08:30.950 --> 03:08:31.470]  [SPEAKER_14]: Monroe, do you have any...
[03:08:31.470 --> 03:08:32.790]  [SPEAKER_14]: Monroe, look, you know...
[03:08:32.790 --> 03:08:33.590]  [SPEAKER_14]: Actually, you know what?
[03:08:33.610 --> 03:08:34.610]  [SPEAKER_14]: I saw this really good film.
[03:08:34.710 --> 03:08:35.390]  [SPEAKER_14]: Let me talk about this.
[03:08:35.390 --> 03:08:37.130]  [SPEAKER_14]: Only The Lonely and What About Bob.
[03:08:37.190 --> 03:08:40.650]  [SPEAKER_14]: What About Bob is really good and everybody should go see it.
[03:08:40.650 --> 03:08:44.050]  [SPEAKER_14]: So, all the night shifters out there that want to know...
[03:08:44.050 --> 03:08:45.050]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's an excellent review.
[03:08:45.230 --> 03:08:46.010]  [SPEAKER_14]: I give it a nine.
[03:08:46.290 --> 03:08:46.910]  [SPEAKER_14]: Go see it.
[03:08:46.990 --> 03:08:48.010]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's smokin', man.
[03:08:48.290 --> 03:08:50.570]  [SPEAKER_14]: Now, as far as Only The Lonely...
[03:08:50.570 --> 03:08:52.050]  [SPEAKER_14]: Only The Lonely was a great script, Mike.
[03:08:52.290 --> 03:08:52.750]  [SPEAKER_14]: But, um...
[03:08:52.750 --> 03:08:55.230]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's because you can identify with the lead character, probably, right?
[03:08:55.350 --> 03:08:56.130]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, John Candy.
[03:08:56.290 --> 03:08:58.510]  [SPEAKER_21]: The Lonely sounds like you guys on your radio, shouldn't it?
[03:08:58.690 --> 03:08:59.890]  [SPEAKER_15]: Oh, is that Fish?
[03:09:00.130 --> 03:09:00.430]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yes.
[03:09:00.710 --> 03:09:00.970]  [SPEAKER_15]: Fish.
[03:09:01.210 --> 03:09:02.090]  [SPEAKER_15]: Remember one thing.
[03:09:02.210 --> 03:09:03.770]  [SPEAKER_17]: You should go see my friend Sanchez.
[03:09:04.050 --> 03:09:04.110]  [SPEAKER_17]: Fish.
[03:09:05.190 --> 03:09:07.270]  [SPEAKER_15]: Death comes quickly to those who deserve it.
[03:09:09.010 --> 03:09:09.610]  [SPEAKER_17]: Yo, guys.
[03:09:09.790 --> 03:09:10.430]  [SPEAKER_17]: Peace and love.
[03:09:10.790 --> 03:09:10.910]  [SPEAKER_17]: Bye.
[03:09:11.330 --> 03:09:11.510]  [SPEAKER_15]: You too.
[03:09:12.050 --> 03:09:12.550]  [SPEAKER_15]: We're going.
[03:09:12.730 --> 03:09:12.950]  [SPEAKER_15]: Fish?
[03:09:13.150 --> 03:09:13.370]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah.
[03:09:14.170 --> 03:09:15.310]  [SPEAKER_15]: You're the only one who's left.
[03:09:15.610 --> 03:09:16.270]  [SPEAKER_20]: Only one that's left?
[03:09:16.490 --> 03:09:16.610]  [SPEAKER_20]: Yeah.
[03:09:17.310 --> 03:09:17.770]  [SPEAKER_20]: I went to Monroe.
[03:09:18.210 --> 03:09:19.030]  [SPEAKER_20]: Monroe hung up.
[03:09:19.250 --> 03:09:20.490]  [SPEAKER_20]: Did you guys get cut off yet?
[03:09:20.490 --> 03:09:21.350]  [SPEAKER_20]: Is this other guy on you?
[03:09:21.470 --> 03:09:22.550]  [SPEAKER_20]: No, he'll be on in another minute.
[03:09:22.550 --> 03:09:23.210]  [SPEAKER_15]: He'll be on in another minute.
[03:09:23.270 --> 03:09:23.750]  [SPEAKER_15]: A minute and a half.
[03:09:23.990 --> 03:09:24.790]  [SPEAKER_15]: He's standing guard.
[03:09:24.810 --> 03:09:25.490]  [SPEAKER_15]: He's holding his post.
[03:09:25.490 --> 03:09:25.650]  [SPEAKER_15]: He's standing guard.
[03:09:25.770 --> 03:09:26.110]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's right.
[03:09:26.250 --> 03:09:27.970]  [SPEAKER_15]: As a matter of fact, he's got a gun to curse his head right now.
[03:09:27.990 --> 03:09:29.250]  [SPEAKER_15]: This is what happens, Will.
[03:09:29.510 --> 03:09:30.230]  [SPEAKER_39]: Are we going home?
[03:09:30.410 --> 03:09:30.490]  [SPEAKER_39]: Are we going home?
[03:09:30.490 --> 03:09:31.050]  [SPEAKER_39]: Are we going to go see, bro?
[03:09:31.050 --> 03:09:33.850]  [SPEAKER_39]: I'm in a fight looking as though he's just exhumed his grandmother with his bare hands.
[03:09:35.070 --> 03:09:35.710]  [SPEAKER_39]: Absolute candidness.
[03:09:35.810 --> 03:09:37.070]  [SPEAKER_39]: That's what I demand from the people around me.
[03:09:37.110 --> 03:09:37.910]  [SPEAKER_39]: Do I make myself clear?
[03:09:38.010 --> 03:09:38.370]  [SPEAKER_39]: Yes, sir.
[03:09:39.310 --> 03:09:39.810]  [SPEAKER_39]: Hey, hey.
[03:09:39.850 --> 03:09:41.570]  [SPEAKER_39]: As for our immediate requirement, see they're fully met.
[03:09:43.030 --> 03:09:43.670]  [SPEAKER_39]: Filthy pig.
[03:09:45.370 --> 03:09:47.050]  [SPEAKER_39]: Last week he offered me an unwashed glass.
[03:09:47.190 --> 03:09:50.550]  [SPEAKER_39]: Now he enters my fight looking as though he's just exhumed his grandmother with his bare hands.
[03:09:51.790 --> 03:09:52.430]  [SPEAKER_39]: Absolute candidness.
[03:09:52.530 --> 03:09:53.790]  [SPEAKER_39]: That's what I demand from the people around me.
[03:09:53.810 --> 03:09:54.630]  [SPEAKER_39]: Do I make myself clear?
[03:09:54.730 --> 03:09:55.110]  [SPEAKER_39]: Yes, sir.
[03:09:56.450 --> 03:09:58.290]  [SPEAKER_39]: As for our immediate requirement, see they're fully met.
[03:09:58.630 --> 03:10:00.350]  [SPEAKER_39]: It does no harm to end their confidence.
[03:10:01.210 --> 03:10:02.910]  [SPEAKER_39]: As for him, he's relieved of my orderly.
[03:10:03.050 --> 03:10:03.670]  [SPEAKER_39]: Home lead cancer.
[03:10:04.710 --> 03:10:05.410]  [SPEAKER_39]: Filthy pig.
[03:10:07.110 --> 03:10:08.790]  [SPEAKER_39]: Last week he offered me an unwashed glass.
[03:10:08.930 --> 03:10:12.350]  [SPEAKER_39]: Now he enters my sight, looking as though he's just exhumed his grandmother with his bare hands.
[03:10:13.350 --> 03:10:14.170]  [SPEAKER_39]: Absolute candidness!
[03:10:14.290 --> 03:10:15.530]  [SPEAKER_39]: That's what I demand from the people around me.
[03:10:15.590 --> 03:10:16.350]  [SPEAKER_39]: Do I make myself clear?
[03:10:16.510 --> 03:10:16.790]  [SPEAKER_39]: Yes, sir.
[03:10:17.290 --> 03:10:17.410]  [SPEAKER_35]: Yeah.
[03:10:18.270 --> 03:10:19.330]  [SPEAKER_39]: There's three more beds.
[03:10:19.450 --> 03:10:21.310]  [SPEAKER_40]: I'm gonna get out of here.
[03:10:22.250 --> 03:10:22.830]  [SPEAKER_14]: There's three more beds.
[03:10:22.870 --> 03:10:26.550]  [SPEAKER_40]: Because once they are, I shall then seal off the district and put the inhabitants through a sieve.
[03:10:26.550 --> 03:10:28.190]  [SPEAKER_40]: All 80,000.
[03:10:30.470 --> 03:10:34.590]  [SPEAKER_40]: Because once they are, I shall then seal off the district and put the inhabitants through a sieve.
[03:10:35.050 --> 03:10:36.210]  [SPEAKER_40]: All 80,000.
[03:10:38.650 --> 03:10:42.910]  [SPEAKER_40]: Because once they are, I shall then seal off the district and put the inhabitants through a sieve.
[03:10:42.990 --> 03:10:46.550]  [SPEAKER_14]: If anybody else wants to pledge the night shift, go right ahead at 279.
[03:10:56.070 --> 03:10:56.710]  [SPEAKER_14]: 279-3400.
[03:10:56.730 --> 03:10:57.090]  [SPEAKER_14]: Bring that up.
[03:10:57.190 --> 03:10:58.210]  [SPEAKER_14]: We'll see who else is here and we'll get out of here.
[03:10:58.330 --> 03:10:58.830]  [SPEAKER_14]: 30 seconds.
[03:10:58.950 --> 03:10:59.630]  [SPEAKER_14]: Hello, you're on the air.
[03:11:00.010 --> 03:11:00.550]  [SPEAKER_20]: 30 seconds?
[03:11:01.550 --> 03:11:02.810]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, 30 seconds.
[03:11:04.470 --> 03:11:05.250]  [SPEAKER_14]: 29 seconds.
[03:11:06.150 --> 03:11:06.330]  [SPEAKER_14]: Hello?
[03:11:06.930 --> 03:11:07.110]  [SPEAKER_14]: Hello?
[03:11:07.390 --> 03:11:08.050]  [SPEAKER_14]: I'm going to speak to Emmanuel.
[03:11:08.510 --> 03:11:08.830]  [SPEAKER_14]: Emmanuel?
[03:11:09.570 --> 03:11:09.890]  [SPEAKER_14]: Emmanuel?
[03:11:10.450 --> 03:11:10.630]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay.
[03:11:10.870 --> 03:11:11.050]  [SPEAKER_14]: Emmanuel?
[03:11:11.390 --> 03:11:12.250]  [SPEAKER_14]: All right, we'll hold that call.
[03:11:12.410 --> 03:11:12.770]  [SPEAKER_14]: Stay there.
[03:11:12.950 --> 03:11:12.950]  Stay there.
[03:11:12.950 --> 03:11:13.410]  [SPEAKER_14]: Stay there.
[03:11:13.550 --> 03:11:14.530]  [SPEAKER_14]: Emmanuel will be on with you.
[03:11:14.590 --> 03:11:14.910]  [SPEAKER_14]: Just stay there, man.
[03:11:15.070 --> 03:11:15.990]  [SPEAKER_14]: We're going to do an interlude.
[03:11:15.990 --> 03:11:16.910]  [SPEAKER_14]: Hello, you're on the air.
[03:11:17.170 --> 03:11:17.670]  [SPEAKER_13]: Can you hang out?
[03:11:17.710 --> 03:11:17.870]  [SPEAKER_13]: Hello?
[03:11:18.330 --> 03:11:18.630]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yes?
[03:11:19.330 --> 03:11:20.630]  [SPEAKER_13]: I can't hear you through the phone.
[03:11:20.750 --> 03:11:21.190]  [SPEAKER_13]: Wait, hold on.
[03:11:21.690 --> 03:11:22.390]  [SPEAKER_13]: Oh, jeez.
[03:11:22.690 --> 03:11:23.330]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay, go ahead.
[03:11:23.690 --> 03:11:24.690]  [SPEAKER_15]: No, well, listen, we've got to go.
[03:11:24.890 --> 03:11:25.110]  [SPEAKER_15]: Fish, we'll see him.
[03:11:25.190 --> 03:11:25.770]  [SPEAKER_13]: We've got 15 seconds.
[03:11:26.150 --> 03:11:27.030]  [SPEAKER_13]: The two of you release.
[03:11:27.590 --> 03:11:27.950]  [SPEAKER_15]: Ooh.
[03:11:28.570 --> 03:11:28.890]  [SPEAKER_15]: All right.
[03:11:28.930 --> 03:11:29.190]  [SPEAKER_14]: Ooh.
[03:11:29.390 --> 03:11:29.910]  [SPEAKER_15]: We're going.
[03:11:30.190 --> 03:11:30.830]  [SPEAKER_15]: We do, don't we?
[03:11:31.410 --> 03:11:32.550]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay, that call's still on.
[03:11:32.650 --> 03:11:33.390]  [SPEAKER_14]: That guy's still on.
[03:11:33.470 --> 03:11:33.990]  [SPEAKER_15]: We'll see you later.
[03:11:34.830 --> 03:11:36.210]  [SPEAKER_15]: And we'll be back next week.
[03:11:36.390 --> 03:11:37.850]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yes, in our usual slot.
[03:11:37.870 --> 03:11:41.270]  [SPEAKER_15]: And this has been the 15-minute version of Night Shift.
[03:11:41.650 --> 03:11:42.750]  [SPEAKER_15]: Of Night Shift.
[03:11:43.190 --> 03:11:43.710]  [SPEAKER_15]: Thank you.
[03:11:43.730 --> 03:11:44.850]  [SPEAKER_15]: We came in and we did our thing.
[03:11:44.850 --> 03:11:46.310]  [SPEAKER_15]: We made $25, right?
[03:11:46.350 --> 03:11:46.750]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yes, we did.
[03:11:46.930 --> 03:11:47.270]  [SPEAKER_14]: All right.
[03:11:47.510 --> 03:11:48.590]  [SPEAKER_14]: Actually, there's a call-in now.
[03:11:48.730 --> 03:11:50.270]  [SPEAKER_14]: We probably made $50.
[03:11:50.330 --> 03:11:51.030]  [SPEAKER_14]: $50 out.
[03:11:51.050 --> 03:11:51.270]  [SPEAKER_14]: Bye.
[03:11:51.610 --> 03:11:51.990]  [SPEAKER_14]: Bye.
[03:12:36.680 --> 03:12:37.600]  [SPEAKER_02]: Hi, it's Emmanuel.
[03:12:37.600 --> 03:12:38.080]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm back.
[03:12:38.160 --> 03:12:38.820]  [SPEAKER_02]: They've released me.
[03:12:39.200 --> 03:12:45.680]  [SPEAKER_02]: We're going to go to something from the other half of what used to be Big Audio Dynamite, Screaming Target.
[03:12:45.860 --> 03:12:48.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: Then we're going to go take some phone calls, as promised.
[03:12:49.140 --> 03:12:51.060]  [SPEAKER_02]: Along with some other fun things.
[03:12:51.440 --> 03:12:53.060]  [SPEAKER_02]: Off the hook until 6 o'clock.
[03:12:54.380 --> 03:12:55.380]  [SPEAKER_02]: What is this?
[03:13:09.800 --> 03:13:11.080]  [SPEAKER_35]: I must lift up.
[03:13:11.580 --> 03:13:12.420]  [SPEAKER_35]: I must lift up.
[03:13:13.020 --> 03:13:13.940]  [SPEAKER_35]: I'm coming to school, and I'm finished now.
[03:13:14.140 --> 03:13:15.240]  [SPEAKER_35]: I'm in the water...
[03:13:15.240 --> 03:13:16.360]  [SPEAKER_35]: I'll let you swim in.
[03:13:16.800 --> 03:13:17.360]  [SPEAKER_35]: I'll let you swim in.
[03:13:17.800 --> 03:13:18.200]  I'll let you swim in.
[03:13:18.200 --> 03:13:18.220]  I'll let you swim in.
[03:13:34.580 --> 03:13:36.020]  [SPEAKER_37]: String up the horn.
[03:13:36.340 --> 03:13:37.180]  [SPEAKER_35]: String up the speaker.
[03:13:38.600 --> 03:13:39.920]  [SPEAKER_35]: Homes down high five.
[03:13:40.320 --> 03:13:41.240]  [SPEAKER_35]: There ain't no tweeter.
[03:13:42.440 --> 03:13:43.780]  [SPEAKER_35]: String up the horn.
[03:13:44.200 --> 03:13:44.880]  [SPEAKER_35]: Bullets flying.
[03:13:46.340 --> 03:13:47.720]  [SPEAKER_41]: Work spin round.
[03:13:48.120 --> 03:13:48.940]  [SPEAKER_35]: Tummy's dying.
[03:13:49.300 --> 03:13:50.560]  [SPEAKER_41]: Fly, fly, fly, fly.
[03:13:50.560 --> 03:13:50.860]  [SPEAKER_41]: Right.
[03:13:51.200 --> 03:13:51.760]  [SPEAKER_41]: Be on me now.
[03:13:52.040 --> 03:13:52.700]  [SPEAKER_41]: Be them Slider.
[03:13:52.860 --> 03:13:53.380]  [SPEAKER_41]: We're reaching on.
[03:13:53.540 --> 03:13:53.680]  [SPEAKER_41]: See?
[03:13:53.680 --> 03:13:54.300]  [SPEAKER_41]: What's the name?
[03:13:54.620 --> 03:13:56.020]  [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, big boys, yeah!
[03:14:01.300 --> 03:14:02.060]  I'm a hot star.
[03:14:02.220 --> 03:14:03.040]  [SPEAKER_37]: Gun man, I run.
[03:14:03.180 --> 03:14:04.060]  [SPEAKER_37]: Gun man, I hide.
[03:14:04.260 --> 03:14:05.960]  [SPEAKER_37]: Murder one and I let them go to the side.
[03:14:06.080 --> 03:14:07.000]  [SPEAKER_37]: Lord, I'll do a question.
[03:14:07.200 --> 03:14:07.980]  [SPEAKER_37]: Oh, give me a beat.
[03:14:08.180 --> 03:14:09.700]  [SPEAKER_37]: We're hot coming in a weapon in a gun factory.
[03:14:10.100 --> 03:14:11.820]  [SPEAKER_37]: Killing off your brother, close our money.
[03:14:12.020 --> 03:14:13.520]  [SPEAKER_37]: No step on my toe or my territory.
[03:14:14.680 --> 03:14:16.280]  [SPEAKER_37]: Let's go, let's go, let's go, let's go, let's go, let's go, let's go, let's go.
[03:14:16.360 --> 03:14:16.720]  Rock
[03:14:22.160 --> 03:14:23.620]  [SPEAKER_37]: is up the zone, I'm getting hot.
[03:14:23.940 --> 03:14:25.560]  [SPEAKER_37]: Pass is a loop and environment shot.
[03:14:25.860 --> 03:14:28.300]  [SPEAKER_35]: Swing up the horn, straight up the speaker.
[03:14:28.300 --> 03:14:29.680]  [SPEAKER_35]: Speaker, speaker, speaker.
[03:14:33.470 --> 03:14:36.750]  [SPEAKER_37]: Hot town high five, the rain and sweet as love.
[03:14:37.530 --> 03:14:39.350]  [SPEAKER_37]: Check your weapon, here at the door.
[03:14:39.670 --> 03:14:41.270]  [SPEAKER_37]: Nobody blood, on the dance floor.
[03:14:41.550 --> 03:14:43.290]  [SPEAKER_37]: Downing J-A, crimey don't pay.
[03:14:43.490 --> 03:14:45.230]  [SPEAKER_37]: A gun shot today, this is boring from me.
[03:14:45.430 --> 03:14:47.110]  [SPEAKER_37]: Big man, shot boy, rat-a-tat.
[03:14:47.430 --> 03:14:49.030]  [SPEAKER_37]: These are dorking wheels and the ones for cat.
[03:14:49.350 --> 03:14:52.370]  [SPEAKER_37]: Rock spin round, bullets flying high.
[03:14:53.350 --> 03:14:54.910]  [SPEAKER_31]: Be on me now, yeah!
[03:15:01.040 --> 03:15:02.900]  [SPEAKER_37]: Tennis are on the door, make your quarry.
[03:15:02.900 --> 03:15:04.860]  [SPEAKER_37]: This is a spar, I know he's to be.
[03:15:05.060 --> 03:15:06.800]  [SPEAKER_37]: Gold man, a run, gold man, a hide.
[03:15:07.100 --> 03:15:08.020]  [SPEAKER_37]: It is a horsework.
[03:15:08.200 --> 03:15:08.920]  [SPEAKER_37]: Stop it, die, lad.
[03:15:09.160 --> 03:15:10.680]  [SPEAKER_37]: I'll screw hunting, how could it be?
[03:15:10.880 --> 03:15:12.660]  [SPEAKER_37]: You have so many weapons, I'll go back to me.
[03:15:12.920 --> 03:15:14.580]  [SPEAKER_37]: Murder one another, toast that money.
[03:15:14.820 --> 03:15:16.420]  [SPEAKER_37]: Don't step on my toe, on my territory.
[03:15:16.920 --> 03:15:18.200]  [SPEAKER_37]: Territory, territory, territory, territory.
[03:15:18.280 --> 03:15:18.580]  [SPEAKER_37]: Hear me?
[03:15:20.160 --> 03:15:20.560]  [SPEAKER_37]: Right.
[03:15:21.940 --> 03:15:22.520]  [SPEAKER_41]: Hear me?
[03:15:24.360 --> 03:15:25.960]  [SPEAKER_41]: Red-head can lead song.
[03:15:28.160 --> 03:15:30.420]  [SPEAKER_41]: Ladies and today is what we play.
[03:15:32.040 --> 03:15:34.960]  [SPEAKER_36]: String up the horn, string up the speaker.
[03:15:36.040 --> 03:15:38.800]  [SPEAKER_35]: Homes are high five, real and sweeter.
[03:15:39.240 --> 03:15:39.780]  [SPEAKER_35]: Slaps.
[03:15:40.140 --> 03:15:42.820]  [SPEAKER_35]: String up the horn, bullets are dying.
[03:15:44.260 --> 03:15:46.700]  [SPEAKER_35]: Rock spin round, trubbies dying.
[03:15:47.000 --> 03:15:47.500]  [SPEAKER_35]: Dying.
[03:15:47.940 --> 03:15:48.220]  [SPEAKER_35]: Hey!
[03:16:08.030 --> 03:16:15.350]  [SPEAKER_37]: Homes are high five, real and sweeter.
[03:16:15.550 --> 03:16:25.830]  [SPEAKER_37]: Homes are high five, real and sweeter.
[03:16:26.690 --> 03:16:29.890]  [SPEAKER_35]: String up the horn, children crying.
[03:16:30.230 --> 03:16:30.750]  [SPEAKER_35]: Crying.
[03:16:30.870 --> 03:16:31.730]  [SPEAKER_35]: Crying.
[03:16:31.730 --> 03:16:33.790]  [SPEAKER_35]: für'er round, trubbies dying.
[03:16:34.230 --> 03:16:35.210]  [SPEAKER_35]: Scott, scre!
[03:16:50.450 --> 03:16:52.210]  [SPEAKER_41]: Red-head can lead song.
[03:16:52.770 --> 03:16:53.910]  [SPEAKER_41]: Hip-hop or disco.
[03:16:54.310 --> 03:16:56.750]  [SPEAKER_41]: The ladies and today is what we play.
[03:16:58.350 --> 03:17:00.070]  [SPEAKER_41]: Reade can lead song.
[03:17:00.590 --> 03:17:02.050]  [SPEAKER_41]: Deep of podptune sound.
[03:17:02.070 --> 03:17:05.830]  [SPEAKER_41]: The ladies and today is what we play.eling.
[03:18:06.910 --> 03:18:07.570]  [SPEAKER_41]: Callow
[03:18:12.040 --> 03:18:38.730]  [SPEAKER_02]: twio- And from Donlitz's new band, Screaming Target, who killed King Tubby from the forthcoming album, Hometown Hi-Fi, here on WBAI in New York.
[03:18:38.730 --> 03:18:47.730]  [SPEAKER_02]: The program is off the hook, dealing with high-tech, the abuses thereof, and various little secrets that you're probably not supposed to know about.
[03:18:47.730 --> 03:18:53.310]  [SPEAKER_02]: This is Emmanuel Goldstein, and yes, we will be with you for another couple of hours.
[03:18:53.730 --> 03:18:55.050]  [SPEAKER_02]: We have a phone call.
[03:18:55.350 --> 03:18:56.070]  [SPEAKER_02]: Good morning.
[03:18:56.210 --> 03:18:57.530]  [SPEAKER_38]: I have a question.
[03:18:57.830 --> 03:18:58.630]  [SPEAKER_02]: What's your question?
[03:18:58.970 --> 03:19:14.410]  [SPEAKER_38]: Okay, what is it that network mailing lists and such that are usually carried only on UNIX boards like BitNet and Harpanet are never carried on MS-DOS, BBS networks like Grime and VitoNet?
[03:19:14.410 --> 03:19:23.250]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, you know, it's... what we're dealing with as far as the UNIX systems and all that, they're generally much larger.
[03:19:23.250 --> 03:19:29.890]  [SPEAKER_02]: I would imagine, anyway, the systems that you access, they're multi-user.
[03:19:30.530 --> 03:19:34.210]  [SPEAKER_02]: They have university affiliations much of the time.
[03:19:34.890 --> 03:19:45.010]  [SPEAKER_02]: I don't personally see why there can't be more integration, but it's a fact that there isn't, that a lot of these systems seem to be ones that are similar in nature.
[03:19:45.190 --> 03:19:51.390]  [SPEAKER_02]: You have UNIX systems in many college campuses and institutions all over the place.
[03:19:52.130 --> 03:19:54.870]  [SPEAKER_02]: The FidoNet is just like a whole different world.
[03:19:55.090 --> 03:19:59.650]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, they don't seem to want to get off into another world and integrate.
[03:19:59.650 --> 03:20:06.870]  [SPEAKER_02]: There has to be more of that, but still, you know, the uniqueness of each system has to prevail as well.
[03:20:07.810 --> 03:20:08.290]  Yeah.
[03:20:08.490 --> 03:20:09.590]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's, you know, it's a good question.
[03:20:09.590 --> 03:20:12.090]  [SPEAKER_02]: I wish I had a good answer for it.
[03:20:12.670 --> 03:20:19.030]  [SPEAKER_38]: Okay, I also wanted to mention that, you know, there are telephone books for first phone numbers.
[03:20:19.510 --> 03:20:20.950]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, calls directories.
[03:20:21.170 --> 03:20:25.450]  [SPEAKER_38]: Yeah, and they're issued for every telephone area code.
[03:20:25.850 --> 03:20:27.690]  [SPEAKER_02]: Right, those won't give you unlisted numbers, though.
[03:20:28.530 --> 03:20:30.450]  [SPEAKER_38]: They don't list unlisted numbers?
[03:20:30.630 --> 03:20:32.450]  [SPEAKER_02]: No, no, they will not list unlisted numbers.
[03:20:32.650 --> 03:20:36.350]  [SPEAKER_02]: They will tell you an address that has an unlisted phone number, which is kind of interesting.
[03:20:37.190 --> 03:20:40.450]  [SPEAKER_02]: But they will not give unlisted...
[03:20:40.450 --> 03:20:45.290]  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it's pretty easy to figure out what the unlisted phone numbers are, since, you know, it gives it in two ways.
[03:20:45.370 --> 03:20:47.190]  [SPEAKER_02]: It gives it by address, and it gives it by phone number.
[03:20:47.190 --> 03:20:53.070]  [SPEAKER_02]: And you'll see, you'll see numbers that don't, that skip.
[03:20:54.050 --> 03:20:56.030]  [SPEAKER_02]: So they're the unlisted ones, obviously.
[03:20:57.710 --> 03:20:59.050]  [SPEAKER_38]: Okay, another thing.
[03:21:00.430 --> 03:21:08.330]  [SPEAKER_38]: It used to be that everybody had a unique exchange, you know, like a God 9 or something like that.
[03:21:08.650 --> 03:21:09.970]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, they spelled out things.
[03:21:10.190 --> 03:21:10.430]  [SPEAKER_38]: Yeah.
[03:21:10.430 --> 03:21:13.090]  [SPEAKER_38]: What happened to change that?
[03:21:13.610 --> 03:21:23.230]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, the phone companies just pretty much, or the phone company, actually, back then, decided that that kind of system wasn't modern enough.
[03:21:23.310 --> 03:21:24.290]  [SPEAKER_02]: They wanted to go all numbers.
[03:21:24.430 --> 03:21:28.570]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's kind of funny, because we've sort of moved back into spelling things out with phone numbers now.
[03:21:28.570 --> 03:21:30.090]  [SPEAKER_38]: Yeah, it's a lot easier.
[03:21:30.650 --> 03:21:33.130]  [SPEAKER_02]: But it's not in the same way.
[03:21:33.670 --> 03:21:35.650]  [SPEAKER_02]: Exchanges used to mean something, you know.
[03:21:35.730 --> 03:21:36.550]  [SPEAKER_02]: It used to...
[03:21:36.550 --> 03:21:41.070]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not old enough to remember what they actually were, but, like, Stillwell, I think, was one.
[03:21:41.790 --> 03:21:43.970]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, ST would be the first two numbers.
[03:21:43.970 --> 03:21:44.710]  [SPEAKER_02]: Right, right.
[03:21:44.850 --> 03:21:51.890]  [SPEAKER_38]: Yeah, there's some exchanges that, on the east side, meant that you lived in a very exclusive area or something like that.
[03:21:52.030 --> 03:21:52.310]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh-huh.
[03:21:52.470 --> 03:21:59.770]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, that's all changed, because you can get numbers, you know, a lot of different exchanges now, and there's new exchanges all over the place.
[03:22:00.250 --> 03:22:02.610]  [SPEAKER_02]: I guess it's something that just went away with growth.
[03:22:03.110 --> 03:22:03.290]  Okay.
[03:22:03.610 --> 03:22:05.290]  [SPEAKER_38]: And one last comment.
[03:22:05.510 --> 03:22:05.650]  [SPEAKER_38]: Yeah.
[03:22:05.710 --> 03:22:22.890]  [SPEAKER_38]: Why is it that most journalists and mainstream newspapers never understand the issues involved when it comes to some sort of so-called computer crime, but always take for granted whatever prosecutors or law enforcement officials say?
[03:22:23.070 --> 03:22:27.030]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I don't think you're seeing anything unique to computers there.
[03:22:27.030 --> 03:22:29.830]  [SPEAKER_02]: I think you're seeing the way a lot of journalists operate.
[03:22:30.030 --> 03:22:32.970]  [SPEAKER_02]: They do believe what the prosecution tells them.
[03:22:33.170 --> 03:22:35.250]  [SPEAKER_02]: They believe what authority figures tell them.
[03:22:35.950 --> 03:22:37.870]  [SPEAKER_02]: What's different here is you have something new.
[03:22:37.970 --> 03:22:43.450]  [SPEAKER_02]: You have some new technology that should be understood or should be attempted to be understood by journalists.
[03:22:43.450 --> 03:22:46.350]  [SPEAKER_02]: But a good journalist will try, at least.
[03:22:46.590 --> 03:22:50.950]  [SPEAKER_02]: A good journalist will try, but unfortunately, most journalists are not that good.
[03:22:51.190 --> 03:22:54.830]  [SPEAKER_38]: Well, I would expect more, since, I mean, they all use modems.
[03:22:54.930 --> 03:23:08.110]  [SPEAKER_38]: They all use, they all have computers, and they all can subscribe to your journal or to other journals or computer underground digests and things like that.
[03:23:08.970 --> 03:23:17.270]  [SPEAKER_38]: And I would expect, you know, that a few of them would at least understand what the technology is and understand what a bulletin board is.
[03:23:17.410 --> 03:23:20.130]  [SPEAKER_38]: They must have younger children using bulletin boards.
[03:23:20.130 --> 03:23:26.330]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, there is a big generation gap with kids using bulletin boards and their parents who don't know what they're doing.
[03:23:26.550 --> 03:23:31.310]  [SPEAKER_02]: And that holds true for people in the journalism business as well.
[03:23:31.510 --> 03:23:34.810]  [SPEAKER_02]: A lot of them do not understand what these kids are up to.
[03:23:34.930 --> 03:23:39.530]  [SPEAKER_02]: And that leads to all kinds of misunderstandings and false perceptions and fear.
[03:23:39.730 --> 03:23:40.490]  [SPEAKER_02]: Lots of fear.
[03:23:40.730 --> 03:23:41.730]  [SPEAKER_38]: Yeah, that's a problem.
[03:23:41.890 --> 03:23:42.110]  [SPEAKER_38]: Fear.
[03:23:42.510 --> 03:23:44.910]  [SPEAKER_38]: All you read about is fear in newspapers.
[03:23:44.950 --> 03:23:48.210]  [SPEAKER_02]: We've got journalists showing up in the 2600 meetings all the time.
[03:23:48.210 --> 03:23:52.710]  [SPEAKER_02]: And nine times out of ten, they don't know the first thing about any of this.
[03:23:52.830 --> 03:24:05.070]  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I can't tell you the number of times where I've done interviews with journalists, newspaper, TV, radio, and always the first thing they say is, I don't know anything about computers, so, you know, talk to me on that level.
[03:24:05.550 --> 03:24:07.810]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, you know, there's two reasons for doing that.
[03:24:07.810 --> 03:24:13.350]  [SPEAKER_02]: Of course, they want to appeal to their readers, listeners, viewers, whatever, who don't know anything about computers.
[03:24:13.370 --> 03:24:16.910]  [SPEAKER_02]: But I find most times they really do not know anything about computers.
[03:24:16.910 --> 03:24:20.290]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I wonder, why in the world are you doing this story if you don't know anything about it?
[03:24:20.710 --> 03:24:26.010]  [SPEAKER_02]: And the unsettling thing is I've found that this is the way it works more often than not on any story.
[03:24:27.370 --> 03:24:29.290]  [SPEAKER_38]: You mean any technology story?
[03:24:29.550 --> 03:24:30.390]  [SPEAKER_02]: No, any story.
[03:24:30.690 --> 03:24:31.670]  [SPEAKER_02]: Not just technology.
[03:24:31.950 --> 03:24:33.770]  [SPEAKER_38]: They don't have experts.
[03:24:33.950 --> 03:24:35.050]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's a job to them.
[03:24:35.210 --> 03:24:39.270]  [SPEAKER_02]: They do the best they can, but they're not experts on what they're talking about.
[03:24:39.570 --> 03:24:45.470]  [SPEAKER_02]: Which means they... I mean, ask anybody who has ever been covered in the media if they are being interpreted correctly.
[03:24:45.470 --> 03:24:46.730]  [SPEAKER_02]: And the answer is always no.
[03:24:46.910 --> 03:24:55.510]  [SPEAKER_38]: Well, all I see in the newspapers is a lot of sensationalism and no information.
[03:24:55.770 --> 03:24:59.210]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, of course, because look at every newspaper, look at every TV station.
[03:24:59.650 --> 03:25:03.890]  [SPEAKER_02]: They're all there to sell something, to get you, to hook you.
[03:25:04.050 --> 03:25:09.830]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, so that you buy the paper or you watch the newscast and hence all the commercials.
[03:25:10.150 --> 03:25:14.970]  [SPEAKER_02]: And that's the difference between what we do here at WBAI, obviously, because we don't need to hook you.
[03:25:14.970 --> 03:25:19.390]  [SPEAKER_02]: You listen because you're interested, and we talk because we're interested in what we're talking about.
[03:25:19.490 --> 03:25:20.730]  [SPEAKER_02]: And that's as simple as it gets.
[03:25:20.950 --> 03:25:21.270]  [SPEAKER_38]: I know.
[03:25:21.370 --> 03:25:22.030]  [SPEAKER_38]: I'm a subscriber.
[03:25:22.530 --> 03:25:25.090]  [SPEAKER_02]: I wasn't trying to pressure you or anything like that.
[03:25:25.190 --> 03:25:26.210]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I'm a subscriber, anyway.
[03:25:26.530 --> 03:25:27.030]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, that's great.
[03:25:27.070 --> 03:25:32.470]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I hope everybody that is calling up is a subscriber because it's very important that the station remains strong.
[03:25:33.050 --> 03:25:33.350]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[03:25:33.430 --> 03:25:34.150]  [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you very much.
[03:25:34.250 --> 03:25:34.990]  [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks very much for calling.
[03:25:35.170 --> 03:25:35.310]  [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[03:25:35.390 --> 03:25:35.670]  [SPEAKER_02]: Bye-bye.
[03:25:35.670 --> 03:25:38.730]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I believe somebody called before and said 066.
[03:25:38.970 --> 03:25:39.610]  [SPEAKER_02]: Was that what they said?
[03:25:39.770 --> 03:25:41.210]  [SPEAKER_02]: For their social security number?
[03:25:41.370 --> 03:25:42.790]  [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, that's New York, folks.
[03:25:42.930 --> 03:25:44.830]  [SPEAKER_02]: I think that person was born in New York.
[03:25:44.930 --> 03:25:45.770]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's my feeling.
[03:25:45.890 --> 03:25:46.630]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's my opinion.
[03:25:47.130 --> 03:25:52.050]  [SPEAKER_02]: If you trust me with the first three numbers of your social security number, I can probably tell you where you were born.
[03:25:53.790 --> 03:25:55.510]  [SPEAKER_02]: Boy, I just feel so powerful.
[03:25:56.870 --> 03:25:57.570]  [SPEAKER_02]: Good morning.
[03:25:57.930 --> 03:25:58.990]  [SPEAKER_02]: Sounds like you're making something.
[03:25:59.610 --> 03:26:00.110]  [SPEAKER_17]: Good morning.
[03:26:00.410 --> 03:26:00.570]  [SPEAKER_02]: Hi.
[03:26:00.570 --> 03:26:00.930]  [SPEAKER_02]: How are you doing?
[03:26:01.450 --> 03:26:02.750]  [SPEAKER_17]: Yeah, I was running some water there.
[03:26:02.890 --> 03:26:03.410]  [SPEAKER_02]: Running some water.
[03:26:03.510 --> 03:26:03.670]  [SPEAKER_17]: Okay.
[03:26:03.870 --> 03:26:04.430]  [SPEAKER_17]: Let's just listen.
[03:26:07.310 --> 03:26:09.230]  [SPEAKER_17]: The technology thing is a real problem.
[03:26:09.590 --> 03:26:14.750]  [SPEAKER_17]: And that caller before, I caught the end of his earlier, a couple hours ago, he was telling you you were misleading us.
[03:26:15.150 --> 03:26:17.690]  [SPEAKER_17]: I missed the end of what, I caught the end of what he was saying.
[03:26:17.730 --> 03:26:18.670]  [SPEAKER_17]: What was the gist of it?
[03:26:19.610 --> 03:26:22.190]  [SPEAKER_17]: You were misleading us in what way?
[03:26:22.350 --> 03:26:27.650]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, by telling people that they should judge a company based on its actions, I guess.
[03:26:28.370 --> 03:26:39.310]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, you heard the feature where, to reveal for the people who haven't listened, that AT&T will not tell you how to access operators through MCI or through Sprint.
[03:26:39.470 --> 03:26:43.670]  [SPEAKER_02]: However, Sprint and MCI both tell you how to access operators through AT&T.
[03:26:43.870 --> 03:26:49.370]  [SPEAKER_02]: My view on that is that AT&T is not telling you anything about their competitors.
[03:26:49.690 --> 03:26:52.110]  [SPEAKER_02]: AT&T is far ahead of their competitors.
[03:26:52.670 --> 03:26:55.350]  [SPEAKER_02]: So that tells you something about the mentality of that company.
[03:26:55.510 --> 03:27:01.150]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yet, these competitors, even though they're far behind AT&T, will tell you how to access AT&T.
[03:27:01.210 --> 03:27:02.190]  [SPEAKER_02]: I just think that's interesting.
[03:27:02.350 --> 03:27:05.750]  [SPEAKER_02]: And that tells you something about the way the different companies operate.
[03:27:06.030 --> 03:27:06.310]  [SPEAKER_17]: All right.
[03:27:06.410 --> 03:27:08.530]  [SPEAKER_17]: So what I want to say, Eric, is that...
[03:27:09.250 --> 03:27:16.330]  [SPEAKER_17]: I'm sorry, Emmanuel, that you've got this technology monster, a la George Orwell, 1984, something like that, right?
[03:27:16.330 --> 03:27:20.650]  [SPEAKER_17]: That's the general theme which you've been giving us for the past year or so on WBAI, right?
[03:27:20.850 --> 03:27:22.250]  [SPEAKER_17]: Is that a fair summation?
[03:27:22.450 --> 03:27:24.150]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, it's not that organized, you see.
[03:27:24.330 --> 03:27:25.610]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's not in the hands of...
[03:27:25.610 --> 03:27:34.490]  [SPEAKER_17]: All right, it's not that organized, but it's the idea of invasion because of technological things that have a good side also have a negative side, right?
[03:27:34.710 --> 03:27:35.650]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, correct, yes.
[03:27:35.770 --> 03:27:36.390]  [SPEAKER_02]: But it's not...
[03:27:36.390 --> 03:27:38.070]  [SPEAKER_02]: I don't want to make it seem like it's that simple.
[03:27:38.430 --> 03:27:39.650]  [SPEAKER_17]: No, it's not that it's...
[03:27:39.650 --> 03:27:41.410]  [SPEAKER_17]: How do I mean to make it simple?
[03:27:41.650 --> 03:27:43.050]  [SPEAKER_17]: What did I say that was simple about it?
[03:27:43.050 --> 03:27:48.450]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, it's just that there is no, you know, no one evil entity out there.
[03:27:48.550 --> 03:27:49.610]  [SPEAKER_17]: It's not an organized plot.
[03:27:49.690 --> 03:27:53.430]  [SPEAKER_02]: Exactly, but it can still be used against the individual as if there were.
[03:27:53.610 --> 03:27:54.550]  [SPEAKER_17]: So what did you mean by...
[03:27:54.550 --> 03:27:56.210]  [SPEAKER_17]: What did I say that made it sound simple?
[03:27:56.350 --> 03:28:08.430]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, no, I just didn't want to give the impression that, you know, that we're going on saying something about the, you know, the evil government or the evil corporations all plotting and scheming because I don't really think they're to that point yet.
[03:28:08.430 --> 03:28:14.850]  [SPEAKER_02]: But we're giving away a lot of tools, a lot of methods that could one day be used for just that purpose.
[03:28:15.030 --> 03:28:27.490]  [SPEAKER_02]: Like, imagine a Hitler rising in, say, 30 years somewhere after all of this computer technology is in place to allow them to monitor people, to spy on people, to categorize people.
[03:28:27.550 --> 03:28:30.310]  [SPEAKER_17]: Exactly, and that's where I take the big issue with you right there.
[03:28:30.430 --> 03:28:32.750]  [SPEAKER_17]: I don't see there being a Hitler in 30 years.
[03:28:33.110 --> 03:28:37.130]  [SPEAKER_17]: That whole thing went down in 1939 or whatever because of a different world.
[03:28:37.130 --> 03:28:45.290]  [SPEAKER_17]: I don't see that coming about today because there are going to be a lot of other people who are, well, whatever, that's where we're part company.
[03:28:45.450 --> 03:29:03.750]  [SPEAKER_17]: What is going down now is racism, sexism, all the isms, and they're operating just fine with the technology that's not yet become the monster, which it may become, but that is the helpful thing, which you think it is, even the helpful thing, well, given the helpful side of it,
[03:29:03.750 --> 03:29:08.790]  [SPEAKER_17]: that we still have, you know, wage oppression and jobs we hate and this stuff.
[03:29:08.790 --> 03:29:19.570]  [SPEAKER_17]: So I wish you could just, like, address yourself to other aspects of life than just this technology, possible invasion, which might come about if a Hitler, you know, comes into power.
[03:29:19.690 --> 03:29:23.070]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I mean, it's not going to be a Hitler, but it is going to be something else.
[03:29:23.070 --> 03:29:24.090]  [SPEAKER_02]: We can't predict what.
[03:29:24.230 --> 03:29:27.130]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's always been our talent, not predicting the future.
[03:29:27.450 --> 03:29:30.590]  [SPEAKER_17]: I don't think... I mean, the invasions that take place, they'll take place anyway.
[03:29:30.870 --> 03:29:36.910]  [SPEAKER_17]: They have the information on people, files on people, through stuff that was around 20 years ago.
[03:29:37.050 --> 03:29:38.590]  [SPEAKER_17]: You know, social security numbers, like you said.
[03:29:38.790 --> 03:29:42.270]  [SPEAKER_17]: They had social security numbers in place a long time ago.
[03:29:42.750 --> 03:29:47.530]  [SPEAKER_17]: And they have enough technology they had 20 years ago is enough to trace all the...
[03:29:47.530 --> 03:29:59.270]  [SPEAKER_17]: You know, when the death squads, when the right-wing death squads want to get somebody, they've got their low-level technology, as low as it is in all South American countries, and Central American countries, that exists.
[03:29:59.430 --> 03:30:01.030]  [SPEAKER_17]: It's much less advanced, right?
[03:30:01.190 --> 03:30:04.050]  [SPEAKER_17]: But still, they have no problem going out and getting the people.
[03:30:04.130 --> 03:30:07.210]  [SPEAKER_17]: So we don't got to worry about this great advance in technology.
[03:30:07.630 --> 03:30:10.630]  [SPEAKER_17]: We got to worry about other things that are going to come down.
[03:30:10.770 --> 03:30:17.330]  [SPEAKER_17]: If someone's going to come down like Hitler in 30 years, they're not going to need sophisticated technological knowledge bases to get us.
[03:30:17.530 --> 03:30:17.930]  [SPEAKER_17]: Okay.
[03:30:18.230 --> 03:30:22.550]  [SPEAKER_53]: Well, that kind of tool will make things so much easier.
[03:30:23.330 --> 03:30:24.830]  [SPEAKER_17]: Okay, thanks a lot.
[03:30:24.970 --> 03:30:25.590]  [SPEAKER_53]: Thanks for calling.
[03:30:31.810 --> 03:30:42.610]  [SPEAKER_02]: And our phone number is 212-279-3407 to be on the air, and 3400 to make a pledge.
[03:30:45.110 --> 03:30:53.270]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, yes, you know, I have to keep believing that lack of education, that's the biggest problem here.
[03:30:53.950 --> 03:31:08.630]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, people that don't see the importance of understanding how things work and how they could conceivably be used against you, like the stage.dat file that Prodigy has.
[03:31:09.770 --> 03:31:13.510]  [SPEAKER_02]: And maybe the California licenses.
[03:31:13.710 --> 03:31:15.010]  [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, you haven't heard about this, have you?
[03:31:15.010 --> 03:31:19.290]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, let's access the Risks Digest again.
[03:31:20.950 --> 03:31:26.110]  [SPEAKER_02]: All right, this comes from Alan Nishioca of Berkeley.
[03:31:27.290 --> 03:31:30.330]  [SPEAKER_02]: I just got my new California driver's license.
[03:31:31.530 --> 03:31:37.570]  [SPEAKER_02]: It has a holographic plastic laminate of DMV and the California seal.
[03:31:38.030 --> 03:31:39.250]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's very nice.
[03:31:40.310 --> 03:31:49.510]  [SPEAKER_02]: My color picture was digitized into an IBM computer, as was my thumbprint and my signature.
[03:31:51.090 --> 03:31:53.810]  [SPEAKER_02]: The magnetic stripe on the back has three tracks.
[03:31:54.350 --> 03:31:56.610]  [SPEAKER_02]: And just for fun, I thought I'd try to read it.
[03:31:57.830 --> 03:32:00.090]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'd previously been able to read bank cards.
[03:32:01.150 --> 03:32:05.510]  [SPEAKER_02]: I found that the information encoded is basically just what is printed on the card.
[03:32:06.410 --> 03:32:07.490]  [SPEAKER_02]: Kind of uninteresting.
[03:32:08.070 --> 03:32:11.090]  [SPEAKER_02]: Of course, I couldn't figure out what little extra information was encoded.
[03:32:12.350 --> 03:32:17.190]  [SPEAKER_02]: It took me a little while to figure out the format, and I suppose it is documented somewhere, but it was fun.
[03:32:23.580 --> 03:32:28.600]  [SPEAKER_02]: There are all kinds of bits of information here.
[03:32:28.740 --> 03:32:34.060]  [SPEAKER_02]: It goes into license number, unidentified digits, a separator, expiration date, date of birth.
[03:32:35.720 --> 03:32:40.040]  [SPEAKER_02]: But imagine, it's a driver's license where you have your thumbprint digitized on it.
[03:32:42.340 --> 03:32:48.420]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm sure if something like that was happening in New York, we'd be rather concerned as to how that could be used.
[03:32:49.960 --> 03:32:56.960]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, it's a good way to instantly identify somebody, but do we necessarily want to be instantly identified?
[03:32:57.160 --> 03:32:59.480]  [SPEAKER_02]: Have we reached the stage where we have to be instantly identified?
[03:33:01.600 --> 03:33:06.180]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm reserving judgment on that for the moment, because I'm not sure.
[03:33:08.600 --> 03:33:11.060]  [SPEAKER_02]: But I do believe we need to know more.
[03:33:20.460 --> 03:33:26.740]  [SPEAKER_02]: And you know, as long as this happens, there's always that spirit of rebellion.
[03:33:31.540 --> 03:33:34.720]  [SPEAKER_02]: This comes from Les Earnest of Stanford.
[03:33:35.300 --> 03:33:45.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: A news report indicates that an increasing number of Americans are thumbing their noses at the federal government's mindless insistence on classifying everyone into traditional ethnic categories.
[03:33:47.600 --> 03:33:52.020]  [SPEAKER_02]: The feds are reportedly fighting back with advanced computer technology.
[03:33:53.520 --> 03:34:07.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: Several years ago, I pointed out that no one had yet devised a scheme that would reliably and unambiguously assign each individual to a particular racial or ethnic category.
[03:34:10.790 --> 03:34:24.070]  [SPEAKER_02]: And that was later developed into an article arguing that all statistical studies of racial or ethnic categories and the governmental programs based on them, especially affirmative action, rest upon unstable foundations.
[03:34:25.310 --> 03:34:30.410]  [SPEAKER_02]: I advocated answering questions about one's ethnicity with mongrel.
[03:34:31.810 --> 03:34:38.850]  [SPEAKER_02]: And a number of people later told me that they had used that answer or similar ones in the 1990 federal census.
[03:34:41.530 --> 03:34:59.950]  [SPEAKER_02]: A recent news story says that the Census Bureau received many answers such as a little bit Norwegian, a little bit of everything, California boy, Heinz 57, a fine blend, and steak sauce.
[03:35:00.610 --> 03:35:05.010]  [SPEAKER_02]: They somehow decided that most of these responses came from people of Hispanic descent.
[03:35:05.670 --> 03:35:10.910]  [SPEAKER_02]: according to Roderick Harrison, chief of the race statistics branch of the Census Bureau.
[03:35:12.170 --> 03:35:23.970]  [SPEAKER_02]: Other answers included child of God, none of your business, N-O-Y-B, and N-O-Y-F-B.
[03:35:45.390 --> 03:35:57.310]  [SPEAKER_02]: The article goes on to say, This year, for the first time, spiffy new technology enabled the Census to decipher each and every write-in answer to the race question.
[03:35:57.990 --> 03:36:00.690]  [SPEAKER_02]: In 1980, only a small sample was read.
[03:36:02.610 --> 03:36:09.350]  [SPEAKER_02]: The Census computer was able to sort and assign about 85% of those unique responses to a racial group.
[03:36:11.630 --> 03:36:13.510]  [SPEAKER_02]: This is truly a remarkable claim.
[03:36:13.710 --> 03:36:25.930]  [SPEAKER_02]: Apparently, the computer has somehow figured out not only how to classify individuals into ethnic classes, but how to do it even when they give ambiguous or misleading answers.
[03:36:27.950 --> 03:36:33.910]  [SPEAKER_02]: If this claim holds up under scrutiny, I will nominate it as the first example of true artificial intelligence.
[03:36:37.690 --> 03:36:41.450]  [SPEAKER_02]: The article goes on to mention that there are limits to its classification abilities.
[03:36:42.850 --> 03:37:13.450]  [SPEAKER_02]: But the computer could not match about 200,000 quirky, smart-aleck, and just plain weird answers such as Golden Child, Extraterrestrial, Alien, Exotic Hybrid, Exchange Student, Half and Half, Fat Pig, Father Adopted, Race Unknown, All of the Above, Handicapped,
[03:37:15.150 --> 03:37:16.430]  [SPEAKER_52]: and Exquisite.
[03:37:19.570 --> 03:37:25.870]  [SPEAKER_02]: Despite these limitations, it appears that the Census Bureau is well ahead of the rest of the world in computer science.
[03:39:11.200 --> 03:39:16.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: And again, our telephone number is 212-279-3400.
[03:39:19.210 --> 03:39:23.590]  [SPEAKER_02]: And if you want to be on the air, it's 212-279-3407.
[03:39:28.930 --> 03:39:33.870]  [SPEAKER_52]: And in a moment, we're going to be reaching out.
[03:42:47.100 --> 03:42:48.740]  [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't think that was in the original.
[03:42:49.020 --> 03:42:49.320]  [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, well.
[03:42:50.780 --> 03:42:55.120]  [SPEAKER_02]: You're listening to Off the Hook here on WBAI New York.
[03:42:55.360 --> 03:42:58.880]  [SPEAKER_02]: Emmanuel Goldstein with you up until 6 o'clock in the morning.
[03:42:59.940 --> 03:43:10.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: And you know, it's just about that time where we do something wild and we do something crazy.
[03:43:11.240 --> 03:43:20.300]  [SPEAKER_02]: And we flex our muscles and move out into cyberspace.
[03:43:24.360 --> 03:43:30.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, it's time for another episode of Confuse the Operator.
[03:43:41.720 --> 03:43:45.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: Confuse the Operator requires a dial tone.
[03:43:45.960 --> 03:43:46.880]  [SPEAKER_02]: Ah, thank you.
[03:43:48.660 --> 03:43:49.580]  [SPEAKER_02]: And a phone number.
[03:43:54.360 --> 03:43:55.780]  [SPEAKER_02]: And lots of static on the line.
[03:43:55.960 --> 03:43:56.380]  [SPEAKER_35]: Let's try that again.
[03:44:21.840 --> 03:44:23.020]  [SPEAKER_02]: And a working console.
[03:44:33.480 --> 03:44:37.060]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, we should, we should have something working in just a moment.
[03:44:40.740 --> 03:44:42.720]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, this phone system is really terrible.
[03:44:42.960 --> 03:44:46.180]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's not even, it's not even allowing me to make a phone call.
[03:44:47.240 --> 03:44:48.880]  [SPEAKER_02]: Talk about Confuse the Operator.
[03:44:48.940 --> 03:44:53.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: Confuse the, uh, Confuse the Radio Talk Show host here.
[03:44:53.760 --> 03:44:54.640]  [SPEAKER_02]: Alright, let's try it again.
[03:44:56.080 --> 03:44:59.660]  [SPEAKER_02]: We have to, uh, do it in the non-theatrical way.
[03:45:02.600 --> 03:45:03.060]  [SPEAKER_28]: Okay.
[03:45:05.500 --> 03:45:06.580]  [SPEAKER_28]: One moment, please.
[03:45:08.380 --> 03:45:09.600]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm waiting for an operator here.
[03:45:09.840 --> 03:45:09.860]  [SPEAKER_02]: No?
[03:45:10.580 --> 03:45:13.400]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, Oh, she hung up on me.
[03:45:13.540 --> 03:45:14.500]  [SPEAKER_02]: I can't believe this.
[03:45:14.580 --> 03:45:15.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: What's wrong with you?
[03:45:16.440 --> 03:45:17.120]  [SPEAKER_02]: What'd she say?
[03:45:17.240 --> 03:45:18.100]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'll, I'll operate.
[03:45:19.140 --> 03:45:21.540]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's not the way a phone operator is supposed to work, is it?
[03:45:22.460 --> 03:45:23.520]  [SPEAKER_02]: Alright, let's try it again.
[03:45:24.540 --> 03:45:26.080]  [SPEAKER_02]: We're going to get an operator here, folks.
[03:45:27.040 --> 03:45:28.540]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's the last thing we do.
[03:45:30.880 --> 03:45:31.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: Imagine.
[03:45:33.940 --> 03:45:35.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: Delays are unconscionable.
[03:45:35.780 --> 03:45:37.800]  [SPEAKER_02]: What if I fall into the floor?
[03:45:38.100 --> 03:45:38.680]  [SPEAKER_02]: Couldn't get up.
[03:45:38.780 --> 03:45:38.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: Hello?
[03:45:39.600 --> 03:45:40.540]  [SPEAKER_02]: Is there an operator there?
[03:45:40.780 --> 03:45:41.720]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, how can I help you?
[03:45:41.780 --> 03:45:42.540]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, yes, hello.
[03:45:42.780 --> 03:45:45.220]  [SPEAKER_02]: I need, uh, overseas information, please.
[03:45:46.400 --> 03:45:49.460]  [SPEAKER_47]: One moment for an operator who can assist you.
[03:45:49.740 --> 03:45:50.440]  [SPEAKER_47]: Thank you.
[03:45:50.840 --> 03:45:52.800]  [SPEAKER_02]: Boy, was that a recording or was that a recording?
[03:45:56.650 --> 03:45:57.970]  [SPEAKER_25]: AT&T home, may I help you?
[03:45:58.230 --> 03:45:59.890]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, yes, is this AT&T?
[03:46:00.130 --> 03:46:00.530]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yes.
[03:46:00.870 --> 03:46:03.810]  [SPEAKER_02]: Hi, I need the telephone number for AT&T, please.
[03:46:03.810 --> 03:46:12.030]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, this would be in, um, in, uh, the, uh, the country that used to be known as Burma, but is now known as Myanmar.
[03:46:13.630 --> 03:46:14.030]  [SPEAKER_25]: Burma?
[03:46:14.310 --> 03:46:16.450]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, uh, no, not Burma anymore, but Myanmar.
[03:46:16.930 --> 03:46:17.650]  [SPEAKER_02]: It used to be Burma.
[03:46:18.970 --> 03:46:23.870]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's spelled M-Y-A-N-M-A-R, I believe.
[03:46:26.090 --> 03:46:27.550]  [SPEAKER_25]: And you need an error code?
[03:46:27.830 --> 03:46:33.950]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, no, there's, uh, the AT&T office in the city known as Yangon, which used to be called Rangoon.
[03:46:37.450 --> 03:46:38.490]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, hold on, please.
[03:46:38.810 --> 03:46:39.590]  [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you very much.
[03:46:51.340 --> 03:46:55.220]  [SPEAKER_25]: I'm going to connect you to my business office and let me try and give you the number.
[03:46:55.340 --> 03:46:55.720]  [SPEAKER_25]: Hold on.
[03:46:55.960 --> 03:46:56.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: You're going to connect me to where?
[03:46:57.360 --> 03:46:58.600]  [SPEAKER_25]: To our business office.
[03:46:58.940 --> 03:47:00.380]  [SPEAKER_02]: The business office in Rangoon?
[03:47:00.840 --> 03:47:01.680]  [SPEAKER_02]: Or, I'm sorry, Yangon?
[03:47:03.440 --> 03:47:03.840]  [SPEAKER_25]: Rangoon?
[03:47:04.240 --> 03:47:06.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm trying to reach overseas information there.
[03:47:06.200 --> 03:47:07.960]  [SPEAKER_25]: Oh, okay, hold on a minute.
[03:47:08.200 --> 03:47:08.520]  [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.
[03:47:08.740 --> 03:47:09.260]  [SPEAKER_25]: You're welcome.
[03:47:15.970 --> 03:47:18.150]  [SPEAKER_29]: I'm just listening to
[03:47:25.010 --> 03:47:31.830]  [SPEAKER_29]: Rangoon.
[03:47:35.600 --> 03:47:40.760]  [SPEAKER_25]: I have to connect you to another operator just a moment because we don't have that routing coming from New York.
[03:47:40.920 --> 03:47:41.310]  [SPEAKER_25]: Hold on.
[03:47:41.500 --> 03:47:42.420]  [SPEAKER_02]: Another operator, huh?
[03:47:42.680 --> 03:47:42.920]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[03:47:43.120 --> 03:47:44.920]  [SPEAKER_25]: Another operator, we will take care of that.
[03:47:45.040 --> 03:47:45.420]  [SPEAKER_25]: Hold on.
[03:47:45.540 --> 03:47:47.180]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, that'll be my third operator.
[03:47:49.360 --> 03:47:50.300]  [SPEAKER_02]: But who's counting?
[03:47:58.990 --> 03:48:00.350]  [SPEAKER_10]: Can you say how can we help you?
[03:48:00.930 --> 03:48:01.330]  [SPEAKER_10]: Hello?
[03:48:01.630 --> 03:48:03.310]  [SPEAKER_02]: Hello, is this another operator?
[03:48:03.510 --> 03:48:04.830]  [SPEAKER_02]: Hey, T-U-O-C, how can we help you?
[03:48:04.970 --> 03:48:10.590]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, hi, I'm trying to reach overseas information in the country that used to be known as Burma but is now called Myanmar.
[03:48:12.990 --> 03:48:14.170]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's now called Myanmar?
[03:48:14.730 --> 03:48:17.630]  [SPEAKER_02]: Myanmar, M-Y-A-N-M-A-R.
[03:48:18.710 --> 03:48:19.470]  [SPEAKER_10]: Just a moment.
[03:48:19.750 --> 03:48:20.090]  [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.
[03:48:31.210 --> 03:48:33.650]  [SPEAKER_10]: You're saying M-L-L-E-Y-A-N-Y-A-R-O?
[03:48:34.850 --> 03:48:38.150]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, A, Apple, N, Nestle, I guess.
[03:48:38.330 --> 03:48:39.690]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's still listed under Burma, sir.
[03:48:39.910 --> 03:48:40.990]  [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, it's still listed under Burma.
[03:48:41.650 --> 03:48:43.850]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's been, it's been Myanmar for about two years now.
[03:48:44.290 --> 03:48:49.810]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, perhaps so, but see, probably mostly because of the codings, once they're established, they should be difficult.
[03:48:50.490 --> 03:48:54.970]  [SPEAKER_10]: They would have to be changed internationally for probably it is about close to a thousand countries.
[03:48:55.770 --> 03:48:56.130]  [SPEAKER_53]: really?
[03:48:56.530 --> 03:49:01.770]  [SPEAKER_10]: So probably Well, they just leave it as Burma only because of the fact that it's already being coded that way.
[03:49:02.170 --> 03:49:02.990]  [SPEAKER_02]: A thousand countries, eh?
[03:49:03.210 --> 03:49:10.250]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, anyway, I need overseas information for the capital city, which I was told was Yangon, but I guess it's still called Rangoon, then?
[03:49:11.050 --> 03:49:12.310]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, it's Rangoon.
[03:49:12.530 --> 03:49:12.790]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[03:49:14.030 --> 03:49:15.270]  [SPEAKER_10]: So what else do you need to know?
[03:49:15.430 --> 03:49:21.790]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I need to know the number over there for the AT&T office in Rangoon, or Yangon, or wherever.
[03:49:24.990 --> 03:49:26.410]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm confusing myself here.
[03:49:26.730 --> 03:49:27.810]  [SPEAKER_10]: I know what you're saying.
[03:49:28.410 --> 03:49:28.750]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay.
[03:49:28.830 --> 03:49:29.830]  [SPEAKER_10]: It does get quite confusing.
[03:49:29.890 --> 03:49:33.670]  [SPEAKER_10]: I know when we changed Rhodesia to Zimbabwe for a while, we had a lot of problems.
[03:49:34.090 --> 03:49:34.990]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that was a real pain.
[03:49:35.130 --> 03:49:35.630]  [SPEAKER_02]: I remember that.
[03:49:35.750 --> 03:49:38.970]  [SPEAKER_10]: And then when they split Yaman in half, we've gone through a lot of this.
[03:49:39.290 --> 03:49:40.930]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but now Yaman's joined together again.
[03:49:41.110 --> 03:49:43.410]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, but we use different coatings.
[03:49:43.930 --> 03:49:44.290]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh-huh.
[03:49:44.470 --> 03:49:47.290]  [SPEAKER_02]: I guess the Germany situation really kind of messed things up.
[03:49:47.450 --> 03:49:48.970]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, we still use different coatings.
[03:49:49.030 --> 03:49:51.810]  [SPEAKER_10]: See, the phone company is very, very set in their ways.
[03:49:51.930 --> 03:49:53.690]  [SPEAKER_10]: They don't change as fast as other things do.
[03:49:53.950 --> 03:49:54.190]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh-huh.
[03:49:54.670 --> 03:49:57.750]  [SPEAKER_10]: Sometimes it reverts back to the original, and we're right where we need to be.
[03:49:58.970 --> 03:50:00.190]  [SPEAKER_02]: I've heard rumors to that effect.
[03:50:00.430 --> 03:50:01.210]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, hold on, please.
[03:50:01.350 --> 03:50:01.930]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, thank you.
[03:50:51.840 --> 03:50:53.060]  [SPEAKER_52]: 4.40 in the morning.
[03:51:02.190 --> 03:51:03.990]  [SPEAKER_02]: Just waiting for the operator here is what we're doing.
[03:51:11.020 --> 03:51:12.420]  [SPEAKER_02]: No need to be alarmed.
[03:51:47.740 --> 03:51:48.600]  [SPEAKER_10]: We're checking, sir.
[03:51:48.600 --> 03:51:49.180]  [SPEAKER_10]: Hold on, please.
[03:51:49.340 --> 03:51:50.100]  [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you very much.
[03:52:29.870 --> 03:52:31.230]  [SPEAKER_10]: Hey, sir, here's the supervisor.
[03:52:31.330 --> 03:52:32.170]  [SPEAKER_10]: I'm going to try to help you.
[03:52:33.010 --> 03:52:33.290]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[03:52:33.850 --> 03:52:34.830]  [SPEAKER_02]: Where am I now?
[03:52:35.270 --> 03:52:37.830]  [SPEAKER_16]: My nurse's services is in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.
[03:52:38.870 --> 03:52:42.910]  [SPEAKER_16]: You're looking for an AT&T office in Burma?
[03:52:43.050 --> 03:52:43.730]  [SPEAKER_51]: That's right.
[03:52:44.710 --> 03:52:45.730]  [SPEAKER_16]: Okay, do you...
[03:52:46.590 --> 03:52:47.070]  [SPEAKER_16]: Is it...
[03:52:47.070 --> 03:52:48.470]  [SPEAKER_16]: What's it listed as, sir?
[03:52:48.590 --> 03:52:52.210]  [SPEAKER_16]: Is it a manufacturing, or...?
[03:52:52.210 --> 03:52:59.790]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, gosh, I just thought it was the main number for AT&T in Rangoon, or Yangon, or whatever the capital happens to be called.
[03:53:04.830 --> 03:53:13.360]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, we don't have any listings, any numbers, as far as overseas here, for AT&T organizations in foreign countries.
[03:53:14.310 --> 03:53:14.550]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh-huh.
[03:53:14.690 --> 03:53:18.090]  [SPEAKER_02]: Are you able to connect me to the operator over there?
[03:53:19.990 --> 03:53:22.610]  [SPEAKER_16]: Try that, I guess, as we need to know...
[03:53:22.610 --> 03:53:25.130]  [SPEAKER_16]: You know, they'd probably need to know what to look for.
[03:53:25.270 --> 03:53:31.870]  [SPEAKER_16]: I mean, you know, whether it just be listed under AT&T, or it would be listed under, you know, like a manufacturing, or a...
[03:53:31.870 --> 03:53:35.050]  [SPEAKER_02]: No, it's not manufacturing, I'm pretty sure it's, uh...
[03:53:35.050 --> 03:53:35.570]  [SPEAKER_16]: Service center?
[03:53:36.110 --> 03:53:39.170]  [SPEAKER_02]: Not service center either, but long distance kind of thing.
[03:53:39.910 --> 03:53:41.410]  [SPEAKER_16]: You mean as far as, like, operators?
[03:53:41.770 --> 03:53:47.590]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, not operators, but, uh, just telecommunications, such as microwave links, or satellite links, that kind of thing.
[03:53:52.170 --> 03:53:57.370]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, let me see if I can find anything here, if I have a listing first, if you can hold on a minute, okay?
[03:53:57.550 --> 03:53:57.830]  [SPEAKER_53]: Okay.
[03:53:58.090 --> 03:53:58.410]  [SPEAKER_16]: Thank you.
[03:55:15.800 --> 03:55:16.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: Hello?
[03:55:17.540 --> 03:55:18.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: Operator, are you still there?
[03:55:21.720 --> 03:55:22.560]  [SPEAKER_02]: He hung up!
[03:55:22.680 --> 03:55:23.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: Can you believe that he hung up?
[03:55:25.900 --> 03:55:26.300]  Well...
[03:55:27.820 --> 03:55:29.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's unconscionable behavior.
[03:55:30.880 --> 03:55:32.700]  [SPEAKER_02]: To all that to hang up on us.
[03:55:35.650 --> 03:55:36.370]  [SPEAKER_02]: What should I do?
[03:55:36.450 --> 03:55:38.570]  [SPEAKER_02]: Should I call back, or should I just, uh, accept this?
[03:55:39.810 --> 03:55:40.890]  [SPEAKER_02]: I should call back, huh?
[03:55:41.090 --> 03:55:41.290]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[03:55:41.870 --> 03:55:43.950]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm being told to call back, and to call back hard.
[03:55:45.410 --> 03:55:47.070]  [SPEAKER_02]: So, uh, that's exactly what I'm gonna do.
[03:55:47.790 --> 03:55:49.210]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's exactly what has to be done.
[03:55:49.910 --> 03:55:54.650]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, I apologize for all the, uh, long pauses that we're hearing here, but, uh...
[03:55:54.650 --> 03:56:02.050]  [SPEAKER_02]: Unfortunately, the way this phone system is set up here at the radio station, everything I say is heard by the operators, you know?
[03:56:02.050 --> 03:56:07.370]  [SPEAKER_02]: And every bit of music I play is heard by the operators, so I can't play anything really loud, because then I won't be able to hear the operators.
[03:56:08.550 --> 03:56:15.050]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's possible that that little bit of music that we're listening to right now is enough to, uh, throw the operator off, so...
[03:56:16.710 --> 03:56:17.550]  Let's, uh...
[03:56:17.550 --> 03:56:25.210]  [SPEAKER_02]: Let's see if we can actually, uh, get to the stage of getting a phone to ring in Burma.
[03:56:27.270 --> 03:56:27.750]  [SPEAKER_28]: Phone.
[03:56:28.170 --> 03:56:29.110]  [SPEAKER_28]: One moment, please.
[03:56:31.970 --> 03:56:34.850]  [SPEAKER_02]: Hello, I need overseas information, please, for Burma.
[03:56:38.650 --> 03:56:41.490]  [SPEAKER_47]: One moment for an operator who can assist you.
[03:56:41.810 --> 03:56:42.390]  [SPEAKER_47]: Thank you.
[03:56:57.210 --> 03:56:58.990]  [SPEAKER_43]: AT&T, how can we help you?
[03:56:59.130 --> 03:57:01.910]  [SPEAKER_02]: Hello, I need overseas information for Burma, please.
[03:57:02.550 --> 03:57:03.570]  [SPEAKER_43]: Thank you, one moment.
[03:57:03.730 --> 03:57:03.870]  [SPEAKER_02]: AT
[03:57:21.560 --> 03:57:24.900]  [SPEAKER_09]: &T, how can we help you?
[03:57:24.900 --> 03:57:31.120]  [SPEAKER_43]: AT&T, New York, from Anon, calling 212-279-3407.
[03:57:32.240 --> 03:57:32.900]  [SPEAKER_43]: Thank you.
[03:57:33.700 --> 03:57:33.980]  [SPEAKER_43]: Hello.
[03:57:34.420 --> 03:57:37.020]  [SPEAKER_02]: Hi, I need overseas information for Burma, please.
[03:57:40.670 --> 03:57:41.690]  [SPEAKER_09]: That's what number are you calling?
[03:57:42.010 --> 03:57:43.190]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I need information.
[03:57:44.250 --> 03:57:45.570]  [SPEAKER_09]: I can give you the name with operator.
[03:57:46.190 --> 03:57:47.150]  [SPEAKER_02]: That would be fine.
[03:58:02.100 --> 03:58:05.460]  [SPEAKER_48]: All international circuits to the country you are calling are busy.
[03:58:05.780 --> 03:58:06.640]  [SPEAKER_09]: One moment, I'll try.
[03:58:07.680 --> 03:58:09.340]  [SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't sound too promising, eh?
[03:58:09.340 --> 03:58:10.020]  [SPEAKER_09]: Hello.
[03:58:14.370 --> 03:58:18.050]  [SPEAKER_48]: All international circuits to the country you are calling are busy now.
[03:58:18.330 --> 03:58:19.690]  [SPEAKER_48]: Please try your call later.
[03:58:20.650 --> 03:58:21.970]  [SPEAKER_48]: 412-1-T.
[03:58:23.850 --> 03:58:25.850]  [SPEAKER_02]: 412, that's the area code for Pittsburgh, isn't it?
[03:58:26.650 --> 03:58:26.930]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[03:58:27.430 --> 03:58:27.650]  [SPEAKER_02]: Huh.
[03:58:28.250 --> 03:58:29.030]  [SPEAKER_48]: That's where we're at.
[03:58:29.210 --> 03:58:29.910]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's where I'm located.
[03:58:30.050 --> 03:58:30.810]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's where you are, huh?
[03:58:30.930 --> 03:58:31.090]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[03:58:31.470 --> 03:58:34.010]  [SPEAKER_53]: So I guess all the circuits are busy at this time of day.
[03:58:34.230 --> 03:58:35.290]  [SPEAKER_53]: Do you know what time it is in Burma?
[03:58:35.490 --> 03:58:37.150]  [SPEAKER_09]: We're in Burma.
[03:58:37.450 --> 03:58:37.910]  [SPEAKER_53]: I'm sorry?
[03:58:38.190 --> 03:58:38.630]  [SPEAKER_02]: Burma?
[03:58:38.630 --> 03:58:38.970]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[03:58:39.670 --> 03:58:40.670]  [SPEAKER_09]: 316 p.m.
[03:58:40.990 --> 03:58:41.770]  [SPEAKER_02]: 316 p.m.
[03:58:41.810 --> 03:58:42.810]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I guess that would be tomorrow.
[03:58:43.810 --> 03:58:44.210]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.
[03:58:44.710 --> 03:58:45.090]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[03:58:45.810 --> 03:58:46.970]  [SPEAKER_09]: The circuits are busy now.
[03:58:47.050 --> 03:58:47.770]  [SPEAKER_09]: You have to try again later.
[03:58:47.970 --> 03:58:50.210]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'll try after they get home from work or something.
[03:58:50.350 --> 03:58:50.510]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[03:58:50.610 --> 03:58:51.610]  [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks very much for your help.
[03:58:51.750 --> 03:58:52.070]  [SPEAKER_09]: You're welcome.
[03:58:52.370 --> 03:58:52.570]  Bye-bye.
[03:58:52.850 --> 03:58:53.110]  [SPEAKER_02]: Bye.
[03:58:53.110 --> 03:58:53.290]  [SPEAKER_02]: Bye-bye.
[03:58:54.250 --> 03:58:54.730]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[03:58:55.270 --> 03:58:55.550]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh...
[03:58:55.550 --> 03:58:57.990]  [SPEAKER_02]: Our mission has ended in failure, unfortunately.
[03:58:58.450 --> 03:58:59.110]  [SPEAKER_02]: But, uh...
[03:58:59.110 --> 03:58:59.750]  [SPEAKER_02]: We did try.
[03:58:59.970 --> 03:59:00.730]  [SPEAKER_02]: We did reach out.
[03:59:01.010 --> 03:59:02.830]  [SPEAKER_02]: We did confuse some operators.
[03:59:03.590 --> 03:59:05.250]  [SPEAKER_02]: And you know what the best part of it is?
[03:59:08.850 --> 03:59:10.630]  [SPEAKER_02]: It didn't cost a cent.
[03:59:15.440 --> 03:59:24.040]  [SPEAKER_02]: Because even if we had connected to an operator over there, overseas information is still free.
[03:59:24.370 --> 03:59:28.600]  [SPEAKER_02]: As opposed to local information which costs 45 cents.
[03:59:30.860 --> 03:59:32.460]  [SPEAKER_02]: Go figure.
[03:59:34.760 --> 03:59:40.130]  [SPEAKER_02]: Our phone number, 212-279-3400 for pledges.
[03:59:40.540 --> 03:59:46.290]  [SPEAKER_02]: 212-279-3407 for on-air banter.
[03:59:56.680 --> 03:59:58.740]  [SPEAKER_29]: I will do some things for the reason.
[03:59:58.780 --> 04:00:00.160]  [SPEAKER_29]: There are paranormalную Latinix van above.
[04:00:00.340 --> 04:00:11.180]  [SPEAKER_29]: What are paranormalnes vamac thenovac thenovac thenovac thenovac thenovac thenovac thenovac thenovac?
[04:00:11.200 --> 04:00:13.260]  [SPEAKER_32]: The染 Arladas turns.
[04:00:16.120 --> 04:00:22.440]  [SPEAKER_33]: The native voices of a Chinese guy can hear from a foreign language.
[04:00:22.440 --> 04:00:23.920]  [SPEAKER_33]: The native voices of a Chinese man have fit in their worldly speech.
[04:00:23.920 --> 04:00:24.400]  [SPEAKER_33]: Theποivregist strategist blows, voice knobs, the front of the bourcono vibe...
[04:00:24.400 --> 04:00:26.160]  [SPEAKER_33]: So slow.
[04:00:26.680 --> 04:00:31.120]  [SPEAKER_33]: Honey, you're my one and only.
[04:00:31.660 --> 04:00:37.120]  [SPEAKER_33]: So pay me what you owe me.
[04:00:38.500 --> 04:00:42.660]  [SPEAKER_33]: Lights are going down slowly.
[04:00:43.380 --> 04:00:47.660]  [SPEAKER_33]: In the woods, the animals are moving.
[04:00:48.540 --> 04:00:52.940]  [SPEAKER_33]: In my dreams, you're talking to me.
[04:00:52.940 --> 04:00:57.740]  [SPEAKER_33]: Your voice is moving through.
[04:00:58.400 --> 04:01:03.500]  [SPEAKER_33]: You talk as if you knew me.
[04:01:04.080 --> 04:01:07.100]  [SPEAKER_49]: So pay me what you owe me.
[04:01:26.520 --> 04:01:29.000]  [SPEAKER_32]: Beispiel Nummer 22.
[04:01:29.600 --> 04:01:34.480]  [SPEAKER_35]: The sun is shining slowly.
[04:01:35.000 --> 04:01:40.060]  [SPEAKER_35]: The birds are flying so slow.
[04:01:42.340 --> 04:01:44.720]  [SPEAKER_33]: One and only.
[04:01:45.660 --> 04:01:50.020]  [SPEAKER_33]: So pay me what you owe me.
[04:03:19.600 --> 04:03:22.780]  [SPEAKER_07]: The loudspeaker spoke up and said...
[04:03:24.240 --> 04:03:28.100]  [SPEAKER_07]: The loudspeaker spoke up and said,
[04:03:41.610 --> 04:03:44.080]  [SPEAKER_07]: Christianity is stupid...
[04:03:47.830 --> 04:03:49.400]  [SPEAKER_07]: Christianity is stupid.
[04:03:50.920 --> 04:03:52.540]  [SPEAKER_07]: Christianity is stupid.
[04:03:57.500 --> 04:03:59.580]  [SPEAKER_07]: Christianity is stupid.
[04:04:14.070 --> 04:04:15.810]  [SPEAKER_07]: Communism is good.
[04:04:16.910 --> 04:04:18.690]  [SPEAKER_07]: Communism is good.
[04:04:20.410 --> 04:04:22.170]  [SPEAKER_07]: Communism is good.
[04:04:23.810 --> 04:04:25.050]  [SPEAKER_07]: Communism is good.
[04:04:25.610 --> 04:04:26.630]  [SPEAKER_07]: Can you hear that?
[04:04:28.330 --> 04:04:29.970]  [SPEAKER_07]: Give up!
[04:04:35.390 --> 04:04:36.630]  [SPEAKER_07]: Give up!
[04:04:38.530 --> 04:04:39.470]  [SPEAKER_07]: Give up!
[04:04:46.020 --> 04:04:48.600]  [SPEAKER_07]: Christianity is stupid.
[04:04:50.200 --> 04:04:52.240]  [SPEAKER_07]: Christianity is stupid.
[04:04:53.500 --> 04:04:54.980]  [SPEAKER_07]: Christianity is stupid.
[04:04:55.840 --> 04:04:57.680]  [SPEAKER_07]: Christianity is stupid.
[04:04:58.500 --> 04:04:59.920]  [SPEAKER_07]: Give up!
[04:05:00.380 --> 04:05:01.000]  [SPEAKER_07]: Give up!
[04:05:02.680 --> 04:05:06.380]  Communism is good.
[04:05:20.460 --> 04:05:25.080]  [SPEAKER_07]: Communist is stupid.
[04:05:26.160 --> 04:05:27.000]  [SPEAKER_07]: Give up!
[04:05:28.000 --> 04:05:28.980]  [SPEAKER_07]: Give up!
[04:05:29.500 --> 04:05:30.080]  [SPEAKER_07]: Give up!
[04:05:30.360 --> 04:05:33.900]  [SPEAKER_07]: From 5 o'clock in the morning until 10 o'clock at night!
[04:05:37.700 --> 04:05:41.260]  [SPEAKER_07]: From 5 o'clock in the morning till 10 o'clock at 9.
[04:05:44.300 --> 04:05:48.640]  [SPEAKER_07]: From 5 o'clock in the morning till 10 o'clock at 9.
[04:05:49.300 --> 04:05:50.480]  [SPEAKER_07]: Ammunition is good.
[04:06:07.500 --> 04:06:08.400]  [SPEAKER_07]: Ammunition is good.
[04:06:08.420 --> 04:06:08.960]  [SPEAKER_07]: Ammunition is good.
[04:06:08.960 --> 04:06:12.600]  [SPEAKER_07]: From 5 o'clock in the morning till 10 o'clock at 9.
[04:06:12.780 --> 04:06:14.040]  [SPEAKER_07]: Ammunition is good.
[04:06:14.900 --> 04:06:15.160]  [SPEAKER_07]: Ammunition is good.
[04:06:43.410 --> 04:06:49.570]  [SPEAKER_01]: Shop as usual, and avoid panic buying.
[04:07:10.030 --> 04:07:12.070]  [SPEAKER_30]: Treat me good.
[04:07:13.790 --> 04:07:18.310]  [SPEAKER_30]: If you wanna live, live, I beg you treat.
[04:07:21.460 --> 04:07:24.400]  [SPEAKER_30]: I'm like a walking razor, don't
[04:07:31.210 --> 04:07:33.570]  [SPEAKER_30]: gaze, don't watch my sides.
[04:07:33.810 --> 04:07:36.510]  [SPEAKER_30]: I'm dangerous, dangerous.
[04:07:37.030 --> 04:07:42.730]  [SPEAKER_30]: If you are a bully, treat me good.
[04:07:44.170 --> 04:07:48.770]  [SPEAKER_30]: If you are a bully, a bully, I beg you treat.
[04:08:06.700 --> 04:08:07.580]  [SPEAKER_30]: Dangerous.
[04:08:07.840 --> 04:08:12.900]  [SPEAKER_30]: If you are a chalky, nobody chalky from me.
[04:08:14.780 --> 04:08:20.620]  [SPEAKER_30]: If you are a chalky, a chalky, nobody chalk from me.
[04:08:22.640 --> 04:08:24.400]  [SPEAKER_30]: I'm like a stepping
[04:08:38.410 --> 04:08:40.010]  [SPEAKER_30]: beat, I'll fall.
[04:08:41.510 --> 04:08:43.710]  [SPEAKER_30]: You treat me good.
[04:08:45.610 --> 04:08:47.870]  [SPEAKER_30]: If you drink, let's sue.
[04:08:53.460 --> 04:08:55.200]  [SPEAKER_30]: I'm like a stepping beat, I'll fall.
[04:08:55.200 --> 04:08:58.040]  [SPEAKER_30]: I'm like a stepping raiser, don't you watch my sides.
[04:08:58.380 --> 04:09:00.980]  [SPEAKER_30]: I'm dangerous, dangerous.
[04:09:01.600 --> 04:09:03.940]  [SPEAKER_30]: I'm like a stepping raiser.
[04:09:04.060 --> 04:09:06.000]  [SPEAKER_30]: Don't you watch my sides.
[04:09:06.400 --> 04:09:08.680]  [SPEAKER_30]: I'm dangerous, dangerous.
[04:09:08.680 --> 04:09:14.620]  [SPEAKER_30]: If you are bull buck, nobody buck from me.
[04:09:16.550 --> 04:09:22.490]  [SPEAKER_30]: If you are dopey, away from me.
[04:09:24.470 --> 04:09:30.090]  [SPEAKER_30]: I'm like a stepping razor, don't you watch my side, I'm dangerous.
[04:09:32.970 --> 04:09:39.710]  [SPEAKER_30]: I'm like a stepping razor, walking, I'm dangerous, I'm dangerous.
[04:09:39.710 --> 04:09:41.770]  [SPEAKER_30]: If you wanna live,
[04:09:45.940 --> 04:09:53.270]  [SPEAKER_30]: warn you, if you wanna live, you better treat me good.
[04:09:55.750 --> 04:09:59.370]  [SPEAKER_30]: I'm like a stepping walking, cuts your fingers, jump it, jump it.
[04:10:13.600 --> 04:10:15.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: Timely Telephone Tips.
[04:10:22.730 --> 04:10:24.310]  [SPEAKER_02]: Brought to you from...
[04:10:25.390 --> 04:10:27.470]  [SPEAKER_02]: The Defense Department Phone Book.
[04:10:33.240 --> 04:10:36.620]  [SPEAKER_02]: When you receive a telephone call, always...
[04:10:37.620 --> 04:10:40.680]  [SPEAKER_02]: Remember to answer as promptly as possible.
[04:10:42.400 --> 04:10:44.480]  [SPEAKER_02]: Try to answer before the second ring.
[04:10:46.140 --> 04:10:47.920]  [SPEAKER_02]: Identify yourself when answering.
[04:10:49.280 --> 04:10:51.860]  [SPEAKER_02]: Mr. Brown's Office, Miss Andrews.
[04:10:52.740 --> 04:10:54.180]  [SPEAKER_02]: Personnel, Mason.
[04:10:56.240 --> 04:10:58.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: Speak distinctly and pleasantly.
[04:10:58.740 --> 04:11:01.520]  [SPEAKER_02]: Hold mouthpiece well up in front of lips.
[04:11:02.980 --> 04:11:05.580]  [SPEAKER_02]: Avoid trite or abrupt phrases.
[04:11:06.460 --> 04:11:07.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: Who's calling?
[04:11:07.700 --> 04:11:08.660]  [SPEAKER_02]: Just a moment.
[04:11:08.940 --> 04:11:09.620]  [SPEAKER_02]: He's busy.
[04:11:09.820 --> 04:11:10.680]  [SPEAKER_02]: He's in conference.
[04:11:10.960 --> 04:11:11.880]  [SPEAKER_02]: He's tied up.
[04:11:12.060 --> 04:11:12.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: He isn't in.
[04:11:14.900 --> 04:11:20.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: Volunteer the whereabouts and whenabouts of an absent person.
[04:11:21.300 --> 04:11:24.340]  [SPEAKER_02]: He can be reached in Mr. Jones' office.
[04:11:25.620 --> 04:11:27.060]  [SPEAKER_02]: Extension 2094.
[04:11:28.580 --> 04:11:31.300]  [SPEAKER_02]: He is out of the building until 3 o'clock.
[04:11:32.920 --> 04:11:35.660]  [SPEAKER_02]: May I locate him and ask him to call you?
[04:11:38.420 --> 04:11:39.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: Volunteer your own assistance.
[04:11:41.000 --> 04:11:43.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: Is there something I could do?
[04:11:44.240 --> 04:11:45.720]  [SPEAKER_02]: Could I help you?
[04:11:46.100 --> 04:11:48.260]  [SPEAKER_02]: Or anyone else?
[04:11:50.620 --> 04:11:55.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: Request identity of caller only when necessary and in a tactful manner.
[04:11:56.240 --> 04:11:57.800]  [SPEAKER_02]: May I have your name?
[04:11:58.400 --> 04:12:00.220]  [SPEAKER_02]: May I ask who this is?
[04:12:00.540 --> 04:12:00.840]  [SPEAKER_02]: Please?
[04:12:03.180 --> 04:12:05.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: Explain off-the-line delays.
[04:12:05.360 --> 04:12:07.320]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's in the files.
[04:12:08.100 --> 04:12:09.300]  [SPEAKER_02]: Can you wait a moment?
[04:12:11.140 --> 04:12:13.020]  [SPEAKER_02]: Take messages willingly.
[04:12:14.180 --> 04:12:17.380]  [SPEAKER_02]: Write essential details on a suitable message form.
[04:12:17.780 --> 04:12:18.660]  [SPEAKER_02]: Deliver promptly.
[04:12:20.920 --> 04:12:26.480]  [SPEAKER_02]: Transfer elsewhere only when you know definitely the correct person or number.
[04:12:27.500 --> 04:12:30.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: Give caller these facts before transferring.
[04:12:35.240 --> 04:12:36.900]  [SPEAKER_02]: Timely telephone tips.
[04:12:39.080 --> 04:12:41.520]  [SPEAKER_02]: From the Defense Department phone book.
[04:12:43.220 --> 04:12:45.340]  [SPEAKER_02]: When you make a telephone call.
[04:12:46.440 --> 04:12:49.620]  [SPEAKER_02]: Always remember to plan an effective conversation.
[04:12:50.380 --> 04:12:52.740]  [SPEAKER_02]: Get your thoughts in order before calling.
[04:12:54.380 --> 04:12:57.680]  [SPEAKER_02]: Place the call yourself except in special circumstances.
[04:12:59.340 --> 04:13:03.600]  [SPEAKER_02]: Make sure you are on the line ready to talk when the called person is reached.
[04:13:06.780 --> 04:13:09.720]  [SPEAKER_02]: Have the correct number or extension in mind.
[04:13:10.880 --> 04:13:15.080]  [SPEAKER_02]: Consult your directory or personal phone number list.
[04:13:17.260 --> 04:13:18.960]  [SPEAKER_02]: Listen for dial tone.
[04:13:19.920 --> 04:13:20.640]  [SPEAKER_02]: Dial carefully.
[04:13:22.460 --> 04:13:25.600]  [SPEAKER_02]: See general information page in your directory.
[04:13:27.800 --> 04:13:32.180]  [SPEAKER_02]: Identify yourself immediately to the first person answering the call telephone.
[04:13:32.800 --> 04:13:34.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: This is Mr. Johnson.
[04:13:34.840 --> 04:13:36.840]  [SPEAKER_02]: May I speak to Mr. Hodges, please?
[04:13:38.700 --> 04:13:43.960]  [SPEAKER_02]: Identify also, when helpful, your office and purpose in calling.
[04:13:45.000 --> 04:13:48.580]  [SPEAKER_02]: Mr. Brown in accounts, returning Mr. Green's call.
[04:13:50.740 --> 04:13:56.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: Ask whether called person has time to talk now, if called is likely to be lengthy.
[04:13:58.620 --> 04:14:05.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: Try to complete your business on one call by securing information or leaving a message.
[04:14:07.420 --> 04:14:12.540]  [SPEAKER_02]: Volunteer your extension in the best time to reach you, in case you request a call back.
[04:14:14.180 --> 04:14:18.340]  [SPEAKER_02]: Keep your conversation brief and business-like.
[04:17:43.430 --> 04:17:47.710]  [SPEAKER_02]: Person equals Alex.
[04:17:50.800 --> 04:17:52.320]  [SPEAKER_53]: Echo person.
[04:17:56.300 --> 04:17:57.000]  [SPEAKER_53]: Person.
[04:18:01.810 --> 04:18:02.850]  [SPEAKER_02]: Echo.
[04:18:03.570 --> 04:18:05.410]  [SPEAKER_02]: Dollar sign person.
[04:18:08.010 --> 04:18:08.770]  [SPEAKER_02]: Alex.
[04:18:13.210 --> 04:18:18.230]  [SPEAKER_02]: The second line shows that person does not represent Alex.
[04:18:20.230 --> 04:18:23.430]  [SPEAKER_02]: The string person is echoed as person.
[04:18:25.170 --> 04:18:34.050]  [SPEAKER_02]: The shell only substitutes the value of a variable when you precede the name of the variable with a dollar sign.
[04:18:36.940 --> 04:18:43.160]  [SPEAKER_02]: The command echo dollar sign person displays the value of the variable person.
[04:18:44.300 --> 04:18:54.480]  [SPEAKER_02]: It does not display dollar sign person because the shell does not pass dollar sign person to echo as an argument.
[04:18:55.800 --> 04:19:04.520]  [SPEAKER_02]: Because of the leading dollar sign, the shell recognizes that dollar sign person is the name of a variable.
[04:19:05.620 --> 04:19:11.600]  [SPEAKER_02]: Substitutes the value of the variable and passes that value to echo.
[04:19:11.600 --> 04:19:22.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: The echo command displays the value of the variable, not its name, never knowing that you called it with a variable.
[04:19:23.600 --> 04:19:28.900]  [SPEAKER_02]: The final command displays the value of the variable person.
[04:19:29.940 --> 04:19:36.180]  [SPEAKER_02]: You can prevent the shell from substituting the value of a variable by quoting the leading dollar sign.
[04:19:36.560 --> 04:19:40.520]  [SPEAKER_02]: Double quotation marks will not prevent the substitution.
[04:19:40.920 --> 04:19:46.680]  [SPEAKER_02]: However, single quotation marks or the backslash character will.
[04:20:13.620 --> 04:20:16.840]  [SPEAKER_35]: Poss spectrum retain more.
[04:20:16.840 --> 04:20:17.580]  [SPEAKER_35]: The other one.
[04:20:17.600 --> 04:20:17.640]  Two.
[04:20:17.900 --> 04:20:18.660]  [SPEAKER_35]: You can prevent the total cause.
[04:20:18.660 --> 04:20:37.600]  [SPEAKER_35]: Beneath the rolling waves in labyrinths of choral caves The echo of the distant heart comes willow in across the sand And everything is grievous and suffering
[04:20:40.690 --> 04:20:48.400]  [SPEAKER_35]: And no one showers to the light And no one knows the ways or why.
[04:20:48.580 --> 04:20:52.280]  [SPEAKER_35]: But something stares or something tries.
[04:20:52.700 --> 04:20:54.740]  [SPEAKER_35]: There's lots to climb to.
[04:20:55.480 --> 04:20:55.840]  Oh, I am
[04:21:23.440 --> 04:21:37.900]  [SPEAKER_35]: you and what I see is me.
[04:21:40.260 --> 04:21:44.400]  [SPEAKER_35]: Do I take you by the hand?
[04:21:44.900 --> 04:21:47.780]  [SPEAKER_35]: And lead you through the land?
[04:21:48.080 --> 04:21:52.940]  [SPEAKER_35]: And help me understand the best I can.
[04:21:55.280 --> 04:22:03.020]  [SPEAKER_35]: No one calls us to move on and no one forces down our eyes.
[04:22:03.260 --> 04:22:06.480]  [SPEAKER_35]: No one speaks and no one tries.
[04:22:06.480 --> 04:22:10.640]  [SPEAKER_35]: No one tries around us all.
[04:22:55.560 --> 04:22:57.160]  [SPEAKER_02]: Echo, hi.
[04:22:58.220 --> 04:22:59.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: Hi.
[04:23:00.560 --> 04:23:03.260]  [SPEAKER_02]: Echo, this is a sentence.
[04:23:04.160 --> 04:23:05.880]  [SPEAKER_02]: This is a sentence.
[04:23:09.010 --> 04:23:10.300]  [SPEAKER_53]: Echo, good morning.
[04:23:11.520 --> 04:23:12.810]  [SPEAKER_53]: Good morning.
[04:23:35.800 --> 04:23:36.480]  [SPEAKER_02]: Day.
[04:23:38.460 --> 04:23:41.420]  [SPEAKER_02]: Thursday, May 23, 051304.
[04:24:01.930 --> 04:24:04.270]  [SPEAKER_53]: Every file has a path name.
[04:24:07.130 --> 04:24:16.250]  [SPEAKER_02]: You can build the path name of the file by tracing a path from the root directory through all the intermediate directories to the file.
[04:24:17.450 --> 04:24:25.810]  [SPEAKER_02]: String all the file names in the path together, separating them with slashes and preceding them with the name of the root directory.
[04:24:27.710 --> 04:24:38.190]  [SPEAKER_02]: This path of file names is called an absolute path name because it locates a file absolutely, tracing a path from the root directory to the file.
[04:24:38.750 --> 04:24:46.550]  [SPEAKER_02]: The part of a path name following the final slash is called a simple file name, or just a file name.
[04:24:49.850 --> 04:24:57.530]  [SPEAKER_02]: While you are logged in on a UNIX system, you will always be associated with one directory or another.
[04:24:59.050 --> 04:25:10.450]  [SPEAKER_02]: The directory you are associated with or are working in is called the working directory, or the current directory.
[04:25:11.970 --> 04:25:15.270]  [SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes this association is referred to in a physical sense.
[04:25:16.450 --> 04:25:21.970]  [SPEAKER_02]: You are in, or working in, the Jenny directory.
[04:25:24.130 --> 04:25:31.830]  [SPEAKER_02]: To access any file in the working directory, you do not need a path name, just a simple file name.
[04:25:32.770 --> 04:25:38.130]  [SPEAKER_02]: To access a file in another directory, however, you must use a path name.
[04:25:40.890 --> 04:25:50.010]  [SPEAKER_52]: The PWD utility displays the path name of the working directory.
[04:25:54.990 --> 04:25:56.390]  [SPEAKER_52]: Login.
[04:25:56.750 --> 04:25:57.850]  [SPEAKER_52]: Alex.
[04:25:58.610 --> 04:25:59.810]  [SPEAKER_52]: Password.
[04:26:01.830 --> 04:26:04.010]  [SPEAKER_52]: Welcome to UNIX.
[04:26:05.090 --> 04:26:09.910]  [SPEAKER_02]: PWD slash USR slash Alex.
[04:26:15.950 --> 04:26:21.010]  [SPEAKER_02]: The MKDIR utility automatically puts two entries in every directory you create.
[04:26:21.630 --> 04:26:31.590]  [SPEAKER_02]: They are a single and double period, representing the directory itself and the parent directory, respectively.
[04:26:33.190 --> 04:26:36.850]  [SPEAKER_02]: These entries are invisible because their file names begin with periods.
[04:26:38.750 --> 04:26:45.510]  [SPEAKER_02]: Because MKDIR automatically places these entries in every directory, you can rely on their presence.
[04:26:47.590 --> 04:26:52.630]  [SPEAKER_02]: The single period is synonymous with the path name of the working directory and can be used in its place.
[04:26:53.430 --> 04:26:59.070]  [SPEAKER_02]: The double period is synonymous with the path name of the parent of the working directory.
[04:27:48.500 --> 04:27:54.100]  [SPEAKER_02]: The KILL utility terminates one or more processes by sending them signals.
[04:27:55.480 --> 04:28:04.800]  [SPEAKER_02]: By default, KILL sends software termination signals, signal number 15, although an option allows you to send a different signal.
[04:28:06.100 --> 04:28:15.000]  [SPEAKER_02]: The process must belong to the user executing KILL unless the user is the super user.
[04:28:15.860 --> 04:28:19.740]  [SPEAKER_02]: The KILL utility displays a message when it terminates a process.
[04:28:23.460 --> 04:28:31.180]  [SPEAKER_02]: The PID list contains process identification numbers of processes KILL is to terminate.
[04:28:32.500 --> 04:28:46.040]  [SPEAKER_02]: You can specify a signal number 0-15, preceded by a hyphen, as an option before the PID list to cause KILL to send the signal you specify to the process.
[04:29:06.460 --> 04:29:11.100]  [SPEAKER_02]: The KILL command is built into both the C and KORN shells.
[04:29:14.650 --> 04:29:23.410]  [SPEAKER_02]: When you are using either the C or KORN shell, you can use job identifiers in place of the PID list.
[04:29:25.450 --> 04:29:37.150]  [SPEAKER_02]: Job identifiers consist of a percent sign, followed by either a job number or a string that uniquely identifies the job.
[04:29:38.850 --> 04:29:46.130]  [SPEAKER_02]: The built-in versions of KILL also allow you to specify signals by name rather than number.
[04:29:50.450 --> 04:29:54.810]  [SPEAKER_02]: You can use the KILL-L command to list the signal names.
[04:29:56.510 --> 04:30:05.150]  [SPEAKER_02]: When you use the KILL utility or the KILL that is built into the KORN shell, you can terminate process number 0 with signal 9.
[04:30:06.590 --> 04:30:15.710]  [SPEAKER_02]: All processes that the current login process initiated are terminated, and the operating system logs you out.
[04:30:17.670 --> 04:30:31.770]  [SPEAKER_02]: But if you run this command while you are logged in as super-user, you will bring the entire system down.
[04:32:41.360 --> 04:32:53.700]  [SPEAKER_02]: Cat Blitz, a script that noisily but cautiously empties the working directory.
[04:33:00.860 --> 04:33:02.260]  [SPEAKER_02]: ECHO.
[04:33:02.520 --> 04:33:05.680]  [SPEAKER_02]: The working directory is PWD.
[04:33:09.100 --> 04:33:10.280]  [SPEAKER_52]: ECHO.
[04:33:12.480 --> 04:33:15.660]  [SPEAKER_52]: Delete all files in PWD.
[04:33:16.180 --> 04:33:18.240]  [SPEAKER_52]: Slash C.
[04:33:23.020 --> 04:33:24.240]  [SPEAKER_52]: Read answer.
[04:33:30.740 --> 04:33:31.700]  [SPEAKER_52]: Case.
[04:33:31.900 --> 04:33:32.680]  [SPEAKER_52]: Doller sign.
[04:33:32.940 --> 04:33:33.360]  [SPEAKER_52]: Answer.
[04:33:33.740 --> 04:33:33.940]  [SPEAKER_52]: C.
[04:33:37.760 --> 04:33:38.720]  [SPEAKER_52]: Why?
[04:33:39.820 --> 04:33:40.780]  [SPEAKER_52]: Why?
[04:33:42.020 --> 04:33:42.980]  [SPEAKER_52]: Yes.
[04:34:00.560 --> 04:34:01.520]  [SPEAKER_02]: ECHO.
[04:34:02.060 --> 04:34:02.820]  [SPEAKER_02]: Ouch!
[04:34:03.040 --> 04:34:03.260]  [SPEAKER_02]: Bang!
[04:34:03.500 --> 04:34:03.880]  [SPEAKER_02]: Splat!
[04:34:04.260 --> 04:34:05.000]  [SPEAKER_02]: R.M.
[04:34:05.180 --> 04:34:05.380]  [SPEAKER_02]: Star!
[04:34:05.960 --> 04:34:06.920]  [SPEAKER_02]: ECHO!
[04:34:07.380 --> 04:34:08.520]  [SPEAKER_02]: We got em boss!
[04:34:09.780 --> 04:34:10.740]  [SPEAKER_02]: ECHO!
[04:34:11.040 --> 04:34:13.880]  [SPEAKER_02]: Files remain untouched!
[04:34:13.880 --> 04:34:16.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: ESAC.
[04:34:16.400 --> 04:34:18.680]  [SPEAKER_02]: Admin-Iblitz.
[04:34:18.840 --> 04:34:19.720]  [SPEAKER_02]: S.blitz.
[04:34:24.180 --> 04:34:25.160]  [SPEAKER_52]: No.
[04:34:25.700 --> 04:34:26.500]  [SPEAKER_52]: ID.
[04:34:27.900 --> 04:34:29.080]  [SPEAKER_52]: Keywords.
[04:34:46.650 --> 04:34:48.050]  [SPEAKER_52]: CM7.
[04:35:03.520 --> 04:35:04.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: Error.
[04:35:04.580 --> 04:35:05.040]  [SPEAKER_02]: Blitz.
[04:35:05.500 --> 04:35:06.380]  [SPEAKER_02]: Writable Blitz.
[04:35:06.740 --> 04:35:07.660]  [SPEAKER_02]: Exists.
[04:35:10.820 --> 04:35:11.820]  [SPEAKER_52]: GE4.
[04:35:23.850 --> 04:35:26.370]  [SPEAKER_02]: Get-E-R2.
[04:35:26.530 --> 04:35:27.070]  [SPEAKER_02]: S.blitz.
[04:35:27.210 --> 04:35:27.970]  [SPEAKER_02]: 1.1.
[04:35:28.130 --> 04:35:29.550]  [SPEAKER_02]: New Delta 2.1.
[04:35:36.560 --> 04:35:38.180]  [SPEAKER_52]: Sixteen lines.
[04:35:53.990 --> 04:35:55.730]  [SPEAKER_02]: Delta S.blitz.
[04:35:57.110 --> 04:35:58.110]  [SPEAKER_02]: Comments?
[04:36:08.610 --> 04:36:11.950]  [SPEAKER_02]: Frivolous statements replaced with serious ones.
[04:36:12.730 --> 04:36:13.410]  [SPEAKER_02]: No ID.
[04:36:13.690 --> 04:36:14.050]  [SPEAKER_02]: Keywords.
[04:36:16.610 --> 04:36:17.450]  [SPEAKER_02]: CM7.
[04:36:18.370 --> 04:36:20.250]  [SPEAKER_02]: 1.2.
[04:36:21.890 --> 04:36:23.290]  [SPEAKER_02]: 3.
[04:36:23.870 --> 04:36:24.770]  [SPEAKER_02]: Inserted.
[04:36:26.110 --> 04:36:27.110]  [SPEAKER_02]: 3.
[04:36:27.350 --> 04:36:27.670]  [SPEAKER_02]: Deleted.
[04:36:31.790 --> 04:36:32.550]  [SPEAKER_52]: 13.
[04:36:35.490 --> 04:36:36.890]  [SPEAKER_52]: Unchanged.
[04:37:05.880 --> 04:37:06.820]  [SPEAKER_35]: CM7.
[04:37:06.820 --> 04:37:09.340]  [SPEAKER_35]: 1.3.
[04:37:10.020 --> 04:37:10.020]  1.0.
[04:37:10.500 --> 04:37:11.440]  [SPEAKER_35]: 2021.
[04:37:11.520 --> 04:37:12.080]  [SPEAKER_35]: CM7.
[04:37:12.140 --> 04:37:12.140]  2.
[04:37:12.140 --> 04:37:12.140]  3.
[04:37:12.140 --> 04:37:12.140]  Ho.
[04:37:12.140 --> 04:37:12.140]  1.3.
[04:37:12.140 --> 04:37:12.140]  2.
[04:37:12.160 --> 04:37:12.160]  1.0.
[04:37:12.160 --> 04:37:12.180]  2021.
[04:41:03.630 --> 04:41:10.550]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, there aren't very many radio stations that will allow eunuch's poetry to be read.
[04:41:11.150 --> 04:41:13.850]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm happy to say that this is one of them.
[04:41:14.950 --> 04:41:22.510]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I want to thank everyone out there for the encouragement and for allowing this kind of behavior to go on.
[04:41:23.550 --> 04:41:24.670]  [SPEAKER_02]: Readings from eunuchs.
[04:41:26.550 --> 04:41:27.930]  [SPEAKER_02]: Music from Pink Floyd.
[04:41:28.910 --> 04:41:30.670]  [SPEAKER_02]: And good morning, New York.
[04:41:30.890 --> 04:41:33.190]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's 5.30 in the morning.
[04:41:33.370 --> 04:41:35.310]  [SPEAKER_02]: We're here at WBAI Radio.
[04:41:35.910 --> 04:41:44.890]  [SPEAKER_02]: Last half hour of this special six-hour edition of Off the Hook, the program about telephones, technology, and various other things.
[04:41:44.890 --> 04:41:48.850]  [SPEAKER_02]: We're taking phone calls, 212-279-3407.
[04:41:49.370 --> 04:41:55.530]  [SPEAKER_02]: If you have any questions or comments about high-tech or hacking or anything like that, give us a call now.
[04:41:56.350 --> 04:41:59.390]  [SPEAKER_02]: Also, we'd like to hear from you as far as pledges.
[04:41:59.530 --> 04:42:07.890]  [SPEAKER_02]: We do need to get pledges so that we can continue to bring you innovative and different programming.
[04:42:07.890 --> 04:42:13.350]  [SPEAKER_02]: So, those numbers, once again, 212-279-3407 to be on the air.
[04:42:13.510 --> 04:42:17.750]  [SPEAKER_02]: 212-279-3400 to make a pledge.
[04:42:17.930 --> 04:42:20.610]  [SPEAKER_02]: We'll be taking phone calls right after this.
[04:42:20.610 --> 04:42:24.330]  [SPEAKER_35]: Oh, I just know where to begin.
[04:42:25.590 --> 04:42:27.590]  [SPEAKER_35]: Don't I say something with you now.
[04:42:28.070 --> 04:42:31.610]  [SPEAKER_35]: It's now or never, but you know how you are.
[04:42:32.510 --> 04:42:34.590]  [SPEAKER_35]: You're still a tenderer.
[04:42:35.630 --> 04:42:39.670]  [SPEAKER_35]: She says you can't go home without a chaperone.
[04:42:40.290 --> 04:42:43.810]  [SPEAKER_35]: Accidents will happen, and we're all in and wrong.
[04:42:44.170 --> 04:42:47.930]  [SPEAKER_35]: There's just to be a thick and I'm not the only one.
[04:42:47.930 --> 04:42:52.070]  [SPEAKER_35]: Accidents will happen, but we're all in and wrong.
[04:42:52.570 --> 04:42:52.770]  And
[04:43:00.960 --> 04:43:05.160]  [SPEAKER_35]: there's so many fish in the sea.
[04:43:05.600 --> 04:43:09.840]  [SPEAKER_35]: But all they rise up in the sweat and smoke, I know you do.
[04:43:10.140 --> 04:43:12.240]  [SPEAKER_35]: But they keep you hanging on.
[04:43:13.000 --> 04:43:15.860]  [SPEAKER_35]: They say you're so young.
[04:43:16.300 --> 04:43:20.440]  [SPEAKER_35]: Your mind is made up, but your mouth is undone.
[04:43:46.370 --> 04:43:50.270]  [SPEAKER_35]: And it's the damage that we do, never hope.
[04:43:50.270 --> 04:43:53.490]  [SPEAKER_35]: It's the worst that we don't say, that's scary.
[04:44:09.570 --> 04:44:13.130]  [SPEAKER_35]: Nothing's made up, but your mind is undone.
[04:44:13.770 --> 04:44:17.130]  [SPEAKER_35]: Accidents will happen, but we're all in and wrong.
[04:44:17.530 --> 04:44:21.250]  [SPEAKER_35]: There's just to be a thick and I'm not the only one.
[04:44:21.890 --> 04:44:25.330]  [SPEAKER_35]: Accidents will happen, but we're all in and wrong.
[04:44:25.790 --> 04:44:26.350]  At all.
[04:44:56.640 --> 04:44:59.320]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, accidents are happening all the time.
[04:45:00.240 --> 04:45:11.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: Even as we speak, there's an accident in progress involving something, something high-tech-ish.
[04:45:12.160 --> 04:45:22.040]  [SPEAKER_02]: Such as last Thursday when a large postal banking computer went down at a computer center in Sandai, Japan.
[04:45:22.040 --> 04:45:30.700]  [SPEAKER_02]: Putting banking machines out of action for more than three hours throughout Hokkaido and five prefectures in northern Honshu.
[04:45:31.240 --> 04:45:38.860]  [SPEAKER_02]: Computer technicians had the main computer, one of three at the Ministry of Posts and Telecommunications, East Japan No.
[04:45:39.020 --> 04:45:40.620]  [SPEAKER_02]: 2 Computing Center.
[04:45:41.470 --> 04:45:47.400]  [SPEAKER_02]: They had that one back online shortly before noon, but postal authorities could not say what had caused the computer to fail.
[04:45:47.400 --> 04:45:54.120]  [SPEAKER_02]: A total of 1,200 post offices throughout Hokkaido and the northern prefectures were affected.
[04:45:55.950 --> 04:46:03.180]  [SPEAKER_02]: With 1,300 automatic teller machines and cash dispensers out of action.
[04:46:03.940 --> 04:46:13.040]  [SPEAKER_02]: Another 3,000 transaction machines used by counterclerks at 2,900 post offices were also inoperable.
[04:46:14.500 --> 04:46:23.800]  [SPEAKER_02]: According to Postal Bureau officials, the automatic teller operations can be shifted to an auxiliary computer if one of the three main computers goes down.
[04:46:24.160 --> 04:46:26.920]  [SPEAKER_02]: But this failed after Thursday's breakdown.
[04:46:28.360 --> 04:46:34.020]  [SPEAKER_02]: Counterclerks in the post offices processed transactions by hand during the failure, the authorities said.
[04:46:35.600 --> 04:46:47.480]  [SPEAKER_02]: Until last week, postal banking services and the four northern regional bureaus were handled by three computer centers in Sandai, Nagano, and Otaru in Hokkaido.
[04:46:48.340 --> 04:46:54.740]  [SPEAKER_02]: To improve efficiency, however, operations were concentrated at the center in Sandai from May 6th.
[04:46:57.660 --> 04:47:02.820]  [SPEAKER_02]: And that's just one of the accidents that you'll find.
[04:47:05.700 --> 04:47:09.540]  [SPEAKER_02]: 279-3407 for calls, 279-3400 for pledges.
[04:47:09.780 --> 04:47:10.320]  [SPEAKER_02]: Good morning.
[04:47:12.250 --> 04:47:12.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: Are you there?
[04:47:13.340 --> 04:47:14.820]  [SPEAKER_21]: Hello, am I on the air?
[04:47:14.900 --> 04:47:15.780]  [SPEAKER_21]: You're on the air, yes.
[04:47:15.960 --> 04:47:16.640]  [SPEAKER_21]: Okay, good.
[04:47:16.640 --> 04:47:19.540]  [SPEAKER_21]: I just broadcasted my goof up to billions of people.
[04:47:19.750 --> 04:47:20.320]  [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, that's okay.
[04:47:21.100 --> 04:47:23.890]  [SPEAKER_21]: I have a question going back to the Risk Digest article.
[04:47:24.100 --> 04:47:24.760]  [SPEAKER_02]: Which one?
[04:47:24.760 --> 04:47:26.720]  [SPEAKER_21]: About California licenses?
[04:47:27.000 --> 04:47:29.680]  [SPEAKER_02]: The new California licenses with thumbprints, yes.
[04:47:29.920 --> 04:47:33.460]  [SPEAKER_21]: I was under the impression, is the thumbprint actually on the license?
[04:47:34.900 --> 04:47:36.300]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's on the license.
[04:47:36.570 --> 04:47:38.080]  [SPEAKER_02]: I haven't seen one myself.
[04:47:38.250 --> 04:47:39.920]  [SPEAKER_02]: From what I'm told, it's digitized.
[04:47:41.000 --> 04:47:43.750]  [SPEAKER_21]: And then they just run the scan out on the license?
[04:47:44.260 --> 04:47:45.750]  [SPEAKER_02]: I believe it's something like that.
[04:47:45.760 --> 04:47:46.840]  [SPEAKER_02]: I wish I had one in front of me.
[04:47:46.840 --> 04:47:48.080]  [SPEAKER_02]: I would analyze it for you.
[04:47:48.260 --> 04:47:54.530]  [SPEAKER_21]: I remember reading the article on Comp.Risks, but I didn't realize that they actually put that on the license.
[04:47:54.530 --> 04:47:56.300]  [SPEAKER_21]: So I just wanted some clarification on that.
[04:47:56.980 --> 04:47:58.300]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm reading it here.
[04:47:58.750 --> 04:48:05.320]  [SPEAKER_02]: It says here, my color picture was digitized into an IBM computer, as was my thumbprint and my signature.
[04:48:05.940 --> 04:48:11.540]  [SPEAKER_02]: And the magnetic stripe on the back has three tracks, so I imagine it was for those three items.
[04:48:12.710 --> 04:48:13.180]  [SPEAKER_21]: Oh.
[04:48:13.600 --> 04:48:14.260]  [SPEAKER_21]: Okay, thanks.
[04:48:14.340 --> 04:48:15.660]  [SPEAKER_21]: I was just kind of curious about that.
[04:48:15.840 --> 04:48:16.070]  [SPEAKER_53]: Okay.
[04:48:16.260 --> 04:48:16.780]  [SPEAKER_53]: Thanks for calling.
[04:48:16.980 --> 04:48:17.280]  [SPEAKER_21]: Thank you.
[04:48:17.440 --> 04:48:17.580]  [SPEAKER_21]: Bye.
[04:48:18.930 --> 04:48:19.620]  [SPEAKER_53]: Good evening.
[04:48:19.980 --> 04:48:20.390]  [SPEAKER_53]: Morning.
[04:48:20.780 --> 04:48:21.250]  [SPEAKER_22]: Good evening.
[04:48:21.530 --> 04:48:22.570]  [SPEAKER_53]: Yeah, whatever it is.
[04:48:23.000 --> 04:48:24.540]  [SPEAKER_22]: Good morning, good evening, whatever.
[04:48:27.100 --> 04:48:33.000]  [SPEAKER_22]: You were talking about the phone ID only being in the local area code.
[04:48:33.540 --> 04:48:34.030]  [SPEAKER_51]: Right.
[04:48:34.440 --> 04:48:36.140]  [SPEAKER_22]: I had an experience just yesterday.
[04:48:36.340 --> 04:48:44.040]  [SPEAKER_22]: I ordered something from a place in New Hampshire, and started talking to him, and he said, oh, you're Mr. So-and-so, and he gave me my name.
[04:48:44.640 --> 04:48:45.030]  [SPEAKER_53]: Really?
[04:48:45.320 --> 04:48:48.000]  [SPEAKER_22]: And I said, oh, how did you know that?
[04:48:48.660 --> 04:48:49.320]  [SPEAKER_53]: You know...
[04:48:49.320 --> 04:48:56.620]  [SPEAKER_22]: And he said, oh, we have our phone hooked up to the computer, so it takes the ID and runs it into our computer and brings up your records on the screen.
[04:48:56.800 --> 04:49:03.260]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, American Express tried that a couple of years ago, and they met with very, very adamant resistance to it, and they stopped.
[04:49:03.660 --> 04:49:05.300]  [SPEAKER_02]: Can you tell us the name of that company?
[04:49:05.570 --> 04:49:06.820]  [SPEAKER_22]: That was PC Connections.
[04:49:07.030 --> 04:49:08.070]  [SPEAKER_02]: PC Connections.
[04:49:08.220 --> 04:49:12.390]  [SPEAKER_22]: Um, one of the big, uh, PC, uh, mail order places.
[04:49:12.640 --> 04:49:14.570]  [SPEAKER_53]: Now, did you have previous dealings with them?
[04:49:14.680 --> 04:49:15.480]  [SPEAKER_53]: Did they take it from New Hampshire?
[04:49:15.500 --> 04:49:18.390]  [SPEAKER_22]: Oh, yeah, they had all my records, and everything was just, you know...
[04:49:18.390 --> 04:49:20.320]  [SPEAKER_22]: He said, oh, ship it to this address?
[04:49:20.540 --> 04:49:21.760]  [SPEAKER_22]: And I said, yeah, that's right.
[04:49:22.800 --> 04:49:25.660]  [SPEAKER_22]: But it sounds like the ID goes more than just locally.
[04:49:25.960 --> 04:49:27.820]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, that's a different kind of ID.
[04:49:27.920 --> 04:49:31.160]  [SPEAKER_02]: Let me first of all ask you, you just called that 800 number, right?
[04:49:31.360 --> 04:49:35.480]  [SPEAKER_02]: And that's all you did, and you started talking, you didn't give you a name, you didn't give you an address or anything.
[04:49:35.680 --> 04:49:37.260]  [SPEAKER_02]: And they told you who you were.
[04:49:37.390 --> 04:49:37.890]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's right.
[04:49:38.080 --> 04:49:40.220]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, that's not the same thing as caller ID, by the way.
[04:49:40.320 --> 04:49:47.820]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's, um, that's ANI, Automatic Number Identification, uh, which is passed on to most 800 numbers now.
[04:49:48.030 --> 04:49:50.140]  [SPEAKER_22]: Yeah, he said we got it from the telephone number.
[04:49:50.280 --> 04:49:57.100]  [SPEAKER_02]: Right, and, uh, a lot of, a lot of 800 numbers now give that information, or get that information immediately as soon as you call them.
[04:49:57.100 --> 04:49:57.620]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh-huh.
[04:49:57.680 --> 04:50:01.840]  [SPEAKER_22]: Well, that means it must be coded on your phone when you make the dial out.
[04:50:01.980 --> 04:50:06.500]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, what it's doing is, it's, it's, the, the phone company is passing along that information.
[04:50:06.680 --> 04:50:07.780]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, it is getting that information.
[04:50:07.920 --> 04:50:08.530]  [SPEAKER_02]: It has to be embedded someplace.
[04:50:08.530 --> 04:50:12.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's not, it's not the caller ID kind of, uh, of passing of the information.
[04:50:13.220 --> 04:50:16.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: But it's the same effect, so, for all intents and purposes, it is the same, I suppose.
[04:50:17.140 --> 04:50:18.420]  [SPEAKER_22]: Well, it took me by surprise.
[04:50:18.680 --> 04:50:21.640]  [SPEAKER_22]: I have a couple of comments on Prodigy on what you were talking about, too.
[04:50:21.920 --> 04:50:22.260]  [SPEAKER_53]: Uh-huh.
[04:50:22.320 --> 04:50:22.660]  [SPEAKER_53]: What's that?
[04:50:22.800 --> 04:50:25.570]  [SPEAKER_22]: It's getting to be very interesting on some of the bulletin boards.
[04:50:25.570 --> 04:50:31.360]  [SPEAKER_22]: It's the, uh, people who leave messages actually start their message with a little plea to the censor.
[04:50:32.000 --> 04:50:37.600]  [SPEAKER_22]: Uh, censor, please don't knock this message off, because I'm not related to the company I'm talking about, their product.
[04:50:38.620 --> 04:50:39.420]  [SPEAKER_53]: That's incredible.
[04:50:39.660 --> 04:50:43.100]  [SPEAKER_22]: And people are actually begging them not to knock their, uh, messages off.
[04:50:43.280 --> 04:50:44.660]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, you've used Prodigy, I assume.
[04:50:44.800 --> 04:50:47.250]  [SPEAKER_22]: Yeah, I use it all the time for, uh, financial stuff.
[04:50:47.250 --> 04:50:49.680]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, have you ever examined that file that's on your computer?
[04:50:49.900 --> 04:50:51.940]  [SPEAKER_22]: Uh, that was the other thing I wanted to talk to you about.
[04:50:51.940 --> 04:50:59.260]  [SPEAKER_22]: I was, uh, I got a beta test copy of a utility they just developed to, uh, to clean up exactly what you were talking about.
[04:50:59.890 --> 04:51:04.480]  [SPEAKER_22]: And I thought it was rather, uh, superfluous, uh, to make a utility for that.
[04:51:04.600 --> 04:51:07.320]  [SPEAKER_22]: But some of the things you were saying, now I have second thoughts.
[04:51:07.600 --> 04:51:14.980]  [SPEAKER_22]: Maybe it's not a good idea to have some of your old files kicking around inside the, uh, stage file.
[04:51:15.160 --> 04:51:16.580]  [SPEAKER_02]: You see, you don't really have a choice.
[04:51:16.600 --> 04:51:19.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: You can delete all of your files, but they're still there on the disk.
[04:51:19.360 --> 04:51:20.000]  [SPEAKER_22]: That's right.
[04:51:20.140 --> 04:51:22.320]  [SPEAKER_22]: All it does is change the first character in the directory.
[04:51:22.530 --> 04:51:22.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.
[04:51:23.900 --> 04:51:24.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: So...
[04:51:24.280 --> 04:51:29.120]  [SPEAKER_22]: Prodigy will probably, I guess, make this utility available in the very near future.
[04:51:29.260 --> 04:51:37.100]  [SPEAKER_22]: And what it does is it actually goes in, finds every byte that they are not using, and changes it to a zero on the disk.
[04:51:37.640 --> 04:51:39.820]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, that's, that's good, all fine and well.
[04:51:39.960 --> 04:51:48.480]  [SPEAKER_02]: But, uh, the fact of the matter is that the whole computer system is designed in such a way that, uh, that data remains there.
[04:51:48.780 --> 04:51:51.750]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, it remains there until it's written over by another file.
[04:51:51.860 --> 04:51:53.000]  [SPEAKER_02]: And that's the way it's always existed.
[04:51:53.080 --> 04:51:54.120]  [SPEAKER_02]: But people don't know this.
[04:51:54.210 --> 04:51:54.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: People aren't aware of how...
[04:51:54.980 --> 04:51:55.640]  [SPEAKER_22]: That's what I'm saying.
[04:51:55.890 --> 04:52:00.480]  [SPEAKER_22]: They've worked up a way where, um, they give you a utility which you run on your disk.
[04:52:00.960 --> 04:52:01.340]  [SPEAKER_22]: Right.
[04:52:01.340 --> 04:52:06.860]  [SPEAKER_22]: And it writes on your disk a zero in all of those unused spaces in the, uh, stage dot...
[04:52:06.860 --> 04:52:06.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[04:52:07.030 --> 04:52:10.120]  [SPEAKER_02]: And they're doing that because of all the, the bad publicity they've gotten as a result.
[04:52:10.120 --> 04:52:16.780]  [SPEAKER_22]: By the way, also, if you're running a, uh, faster computer, that file takes 980K of your hard disk.
[04:52:16.890 --> 04:52:17.540]  [SPEAKER_53]: So I've heard.
[04:52:17.680 --> 04:52:18.140]  [SPEAKER_53]: So I've heard.
[04:52:18.320 --> 04:52:19.250]  [SPEAKER_53]: An incredible amount of space.
[04:52:19.340 --> 04:52:24.460]  [SPEAKER_22]: 100K is, uh, is, uh, like, for a, uh, 8088 PC or something.
[04:52:24.620 --> 04:52:26.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's a lot of data hidden in there.
[04:52:26.400 --> 04:52:29.400]  [SPEAKER_02]: A lot of data that they could, uh, read and access.
[04:52:29.710 --> 04:52:35.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's always a bad idea to have somebody accessing your, uh, you know, your computer that you don't know who they are.
[04:52:35.640 --> 04:52:35.900]  [SPEAKER_22]: Yeah.
[04:52:36.080 --> 04:52:36.280]  [SPEAKER_22]: Yeah.
[04:52:36.390 --> 04:52:39.980]  [SPEAKER_22]: Well, apparently they are basically accessing it because it contains all the...
[04:52:39.980 --> 04:52:45.210]  [SPEAKER_22]: I'm, I'm pretty sure it contains all the commercials that show up at the bottom of the screen.
[04:52:45.660 --> 04:52:47.570]  [SPEAKER_22]: They're all embedded in that file.
[04:52:47.820 --> 04:52:48.100]  [SPEAKER_35]: Uh-huh.
[04:52:48.210 --> 04:52:51.100]  [SPEAKER_22]: And all it does is it puts a pointer to the next one to show up.
[04:52:52.000 --> 04:52:57.710]  [SPEAKER_22]: And it also keeps, uh, a lot of your, like you said, your menus and the, uh, highlight screen when you sign on.
[04:52:58.070 --> 04:53:00.750]  [SPEAKER_22]: That stuff is all in that, uh, stage file.
[04:53:01.620 --> 04:53:02.800]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's a scary thing.
[04:53:03.030 --> 04:53:06.530]  [SPEAKER_02]: But, you know, it's, uh, I'm not blaming Prodigy here.
[04:53:06.640 --> 04:53:08.420]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not saying that they're out to, uh...
[04:53:08.420 --> 04:53:09.640]  [SPEAKER_22]: Uncept is very efficient.
[04:53:09.980 --> 04:53:10.300]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[04:53:10.460 --> 04:53:23.640]  [SPEAKER_02]: And it's, it's probably a good idea, but, uh, you know, it points to some deficiencies in the whole design of, of, of computer systems where data is just left hanging around and, and considered thrown out but not gone.
[04:53:23.760 --> 04:53:28.400]  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, if you sell your computer to somebody, right, you sell your old computer, think of what they can do.
[04:53:28.400 --> 04:53:29.710]  [SPEAKER_21]: Think about the disk with wipe disk.
[04:53:29.940 --> 04:53:33.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: Think of what you can do if, if, yeah, if you don't wipe out your, your hard disk.
[04:53:34.080 --> 04:53:40.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: If you just sell that computer, you've got, you might as well have left all of your files there, all of your personal correspondences, whatever else you've used it for.
[04:53:40.280 --> 04:53:42.540]  [SPEAKER_22]: Like selling your house and leaving the desk in the living room.
[04:53:42.680 --> 04:53:43.080]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's right.
[04:53:43.180 --> 04:53:47.100]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, and I hope that the, that there's government surplus computers for sale soon.
[04:53:47.390 --> 04:53:50.120]  [SPEAKER_22]: Oh, there's been some scandals from, uh, GAO.
[04:53:50.340 --> 04:53:50.340]  I've heard of scandals.
[04:53:50.460 --> 04:53:51.860]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, I've heard of some scandals.
[04:53:51.860 --> 04:53:59.360]  [SPEAKER_22]: And, uh, where they released, uh, apparently FBI computers and compromised the identification of some of the, uh, agents.
[04:54:00.780 --> 04:54:04.720]  [SPEAKER_02]: So it, it, it goes to show that, uh, we're not quite there yet.
[04:54:06.140 --> 04:54:09.890]  [SPEAKER_22]: Well, the human mind doesn't think of everything the first time around.
[04:54:10.640 --> 04:54:11.570]  [SPEAKER_02]: No, it certainly doesn't.
[04:54:11.660 --> 04:54:14.210]  [SPEAKER_02]: But, uh, human ingenuity is, is, is...
[04:54:14.210 --> 04:54:14.570]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[04:54:14.680 --> 04:54:16.920]  [SPEAKER_22]: Well, I wanted to fill you in on some of those technical things.
[04:54:17.620 --> 04:54:18.000]  [SPEAKER_53]: Okay.
[04:54:18.000 --> 04:54:20.710]  [SPEAKER_22]: And, uh, by the way, your show is also one of my favorites.
[04:54:20.710 --> 04:54:21.800]  [SPEAKER_53]: Well, I'm happy to hear that.
[04:54:21.900 --> 04:54:24.540]  [SPEAKER_22]: I can't honestly say the favorite, because I've got several.
[04:54:24.660 --> 04:54:25.710]  [SPEAKER_22]: And they're all, like, equal.
[04:54:26.040 --> 04:54:26.320]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh-huh.
[04:54:26.440 --> 04:54:28.530]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, it's good that I'm up there somewhere.
[04:54:28.660 --> 04:54:29.210]  [SPEAKER_22]: Yeah, definitely.
[04:54:29.660 --> 04:54:29.920]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[04:54:30.040 --> 04:54:30.580]  [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks for calling.
[04:54:30.780 --> 04:54:31.000]  [SPEAKER_22]: Okay.
[04:54:31.080 --> 04:54:31.220]  [SPEAKER_22]: Bye.
[04:54:31.680 --> 04:54:36.460]  [SPEAKER_02]: And Off the Hook is, uh, usually heard every other Wednesday night from 9 to 10 o'clock.
[04:54:36.640 --> 04:54:44.760]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, uh, and, uh, yeah, we're here at this godforsaken time right now from 12 to 6 in the morning on, uh, this Thursday morning.
[04:54:45.680 --> 04:54:50.570]  [SPEAKER_02]: We'll be back again next, not this Wednesday coming up, but the Wednesday after that from 9 to 10.
[04:54:50.710 --> 04:54:55.840]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, 212-279-3400 is the number to call to make a pledge.
[04:54:56.460 --> 04:54:59.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, uh, we sure would like to see some pledges come in here.
[04:54:59.420 --> 04:55:01.600]  [SPEAKER_02]: We've, uh, gone over quite a lot of stuff tonight.
[04:55:01.980 --> 04:55:06.800]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, with, uh, Steve Jackson, uh, popping in and saying a few things.
[04:55:07.160 --> 04:55:10.900]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, Bill Squire over in Amsterdam talking about the BART scandal.
[04:55:11.480 --> 04:55:18.040]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, we had all kinds of, uh, of bits of information, calls, even some UNIX poetry.
[04:55:18.040 --> 04:55:19.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: We've had everything tonight.
[04:55:19.620 --> 04:55:30.820]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, but we need to hear from people out there to, uh, to make sure that we're reaching you and that, uh, you care enough about WBAI to support this station and keep it strong.
[04:55:31.070 --> 04:55:31.660]  [SPEAKER_02]: Keep it going.
[04:55:32.560 --> 04:55:34.080]  [SPEAKER_02]: 212-279-3400.
[04:55:34.080 --> 04:55:45.180]  [SPEAKER_02]: Everybody that, uh, calls in, in the next, uh, 16 minutes, which is all the time we have left, will receive a free copy of 2600 Magazine with their, uh, pledge.
[04:55:45.320 --> 04:55:46.460]  [SPEAKER_02]: Whatever that pledge might be.
[04:55:46.710 --> 04:55:47.840]  [SPEAKER_02]: No matter what it is.
[04:55:47.940 --> 04:55:51.890]  [SPEAKER_02]: If it's, uh, $5, $10, $500, $1,000, who knows?
[04:55:52.140 --> 04:55:56.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: Whatever it is that you can afford to, to pledge to this radio station.
[04:55:56.360 --> 04:56:01.480]  [SPEAKER_02]: It all adds up, it all goes to the total, and, uh, it all means something to us.
[04:56:02.340 --> 04:56:08.460]  [SPEAKER_02]: Each and every one of those callers, each and every one of those people who pledge money will receive that free copy.
[04:56:08.570 --> 04:56:12.540]  [SPEAKER_02]: And you also receive the WBAI folio for 12 months.
[04:56:13.320 --> 04:56:17.220]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, so that's, uh, essential to follow what goes on in this radio station.
[04:56:17.360 --> 04:56:23.920]  [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know how you would have known that, uh, Off the Hook was on at, uh, at midnight to six this morning if, uh, you did not have a folio.
[04:56:25.000 --> 04:56:26.580]  [SPEAKER_02]: 212-279-3400.
[04:56:26.760 --> 04:56:30.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: We have no calls on the line, and probably a sleeping tally person inside.
[04:56:30.140 --> 04:56:32.640]  [SPEAKER_02]: So, let's, uh, let's wake them up.
[04:56:32.680 --> 04:56:34.070]  [SPEAKER_02]: Let's get the day off to a good start.
[04:56:34.210 --> 04:56:39.320]  [SPEAKER_02]: Remember, we do take Visa and MasterCard to, uh, to make things, uh, make things easy.
[04:56:39.750 --> 04:56:41.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: We have one call on the line.
[04:56:41.480 --> 04:56:45.250]  [SPEAKER_02]: Hopefully that's, uh, that's somebody that's going to pledge something to us.
[04:56:45.640 --> 04:56:47.180]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, two callers on the line.
[04:56:47.260 --> 04:56:48.260]  [SPEAKER_02]: Hey, there's people out there.
[04:56:48.360 --> 04:56:50.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, the city is waking up.
[04:56:50.280 --> 04:56:52.400]  [SPEAKER_02]: The whole tri-state area is waking up.
[04:56:52.620 --> 04:56:54.000]  [SPEAKER_02]: We need to hear from you.
[04:56:54.120 --> 04:56:57.340]  [SPEAKER_02]: We need to know that you're out there and that you care about this radio station.
[04:56:57.800 --> 04:56:59.570]  [SPEAKER_02]: Because we care about our listeners.
[04:56:59.570 --> 04:57:01.890]  [SPEAKER_02]: We care about what we talk about on the radio.
[04:57:02.440 --> 04:57:04.580]  [SPEAKER_02]: We want to bring you alternatives.
[04:57:05.210 --> 04:57:07.920]  [SPEAKER_02]: We want to bring you breaking information.
[04:57:08.180 --> 04:57:09.570]  [SPEAKER_02]: We want to tell you what's happening.
[04:57:09.900 --> 04:57:15.070]  [SPEAKER_02]: And the high-tech world is something that is going through a revolution right now.
[04:57:15.070 --> 04:57:23.920]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's going through a very, very precarious state where things like, uh, freedom of speech are up in doubt.
[04:57:24.180 --> 04:57:28.340]  [SPEAKER_02]: We don't know what the future of freedom of speech is in the electronic world.
[04:57:28.780 --> 04:57:32.780]  [SPEAKER_02]: But we do know that, uh, we can focus on it here on WBAI.
[04:57:32.860 --> 04:57:33.640]  [SPEAKER_02]: We can talk about it.
[04:57:33.710 --> 04:57:41.100]  [SPEAKER_02]: We can bring you the movers and shakers of the, uh, industry and, uh, of, of various publications and things like that.
[04:57:41.220 --> 04:57:43.480]  [SPEAKER_02]: We can, we can get the word out.
[04:57:43.800 --> 04:57:46.500]  [SPEAKER_02]: But you need to have a media outlet to do that.
[04:57:46.620 --> 04:57:53.620]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, uh, of course, if you, if you listen to the commercial radio stations, you'll know that, uh, they just don't get it.
[04:57:53.840 --> 04:57:59.840]  [SPEAKER_02]: They just don't focus upon the things that, uh, that bring you to WBAI.
[04:58:00.120 --> 04:58:04.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's why you're listening now, because this is something different, something unique.
[04:58:05.120 --> 04:58:07.820]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, uh, we pay a price for that, obviously.
[04:58:07.820 --> 04:58:10.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: We cannot have commercials and have this kind of programming.
[04:58:10.680 --> 04:58:16.920]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's a, it's a good trade-off, I think, because if we had commercials, obviously, a lot of what you hear would be impossible.
[04:58:17.220 --> 04:58:30.460]  [SPEAKER_02]: There's no way we could, uh, we could have the freedom of speech that we have on the radio now and also have to, uh, accept sponsorships from various companies, corporations, government institutions, or, or whatever else.
[04:58:31.110 --> 04:58:34.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: So, we're just a bunch of people that, uh, are very sincere.
[04:58:34.440 --> 04:58:38.680]  [SPEAKER_02]: We care a lot about what we do, and, uh, we don't get paid for it.
[04:58:39.080 --> 04:58:56.920]  [SPEAKER_02]: So, your call, your pledge of support to WBAI means that we can keep going without having to, uh, compromise our standards, without having to take programs off the air because they, uh, they don't meet a certain criterion.
[04:58:58.460 --> 04:59:06.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: Hopefully, things will never get to that stage here at WBAI, but, uh, we've gotten this far with your help, and we need to keep going also with your help.
[04:59:07.690 --> 04:59:09.600]  [SPEAKER_02]: 212-279-3400.
[04:59:11.030 --> 04:59:12.540]  [SPEAKER_02]: Please, make that pledge now.
[04:59:12.710 --> 04:59:19.620]  [SPEAKER_02]: Start the day off on a, on a good note, and, uh, help bring this program up in, uh, in dollar amount.
[04:59:19.720 --> 04:59:30.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: Hey, we've gotten a, we've gotten a couple of pledges in the last, uh, last half hour or so, so, let's, uh, get a flurry more because we've only got about, oh, boy, we only have 12 minutes left.
[04:59:30.420 --> 04:59:31.390]  [SPEAKER_02]: 12 minutes left.
[04:59:31.500 --> 04:59:34.820]  [SPEAKER_02]: We've been on for six hours off the hook, the longest off the hook ever.
[04:59:35.500 --> 04:59:39.750]  [SPEAKER_02]: Longest program about, uh, telecommunications and computer hackers and technology.
[04:59:40.780 --> 04:59:41.820]  [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe it means something.
[04:59:41.900 --> 04:59:46.600]  [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe it means that people are waking up and that they, uh, they want to hear more about this.
[04:59:47.900 --> 04:59:52.920]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, nothing can send that message stronger than a lot of calls.
[04:59:52.920 --> 04:59:55.960]  [SPEAKER_02]: A lot of calls now in the last 12 minutes that we have.
[04:59:56.460 --> 04:59:59.750]  [SPEAKER_02]: 279-3400, area code 212.
[05:00:00.390 --> 05:00:01.570]  [SPEAKER_02]: Make that pledge.
[05:00:01.860 --> 05:00:02.710]  [SPEAKER_02]: Show your support.
[05:00:03.300 --> 05:00:04.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: Take a stand.
[05:00:06.840 --> 05:00:07.640]  [SPEAKER_02]: Good morning.
[05:00:09.100 --> 05:00:10.210]  [SPEAKER_02]: Is anybody there?
[05:00:11.260 --> 05:00:13.420]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, it's sad when callers fall asleep.
[05:00:14.120 --> 05:00:14.860]  [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, well.
[05:00:15.900 --> 05:00:18.180]  [SPEAKER_02]: That, that phone was ringing for a good half hour, too.
[05:00:19.030 --> 05:00:19.780]  [SPEAKER_02]: Good morning.
[05:00:20.900 --> 05:00:31.250]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, I wanted to ask you, what do you think about an essay bleaching, ugly, darker skin tube of beautiful porcelain coloring?
[05:00:31.860 --> 05:00:33.030]  Like Joey Foster.
[05:00:33.480 --> 05:00:33.920]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh-huh.
[05:00:34.580 --> 05:00:37.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, you know, I guess it's that time of morning, you know?
[05:00:37.930 --> 05:00:47.580]  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I don't know what, uh, what brings them out at this particular time of day, but 212-279-3407 is our telephone number.
[05:00:48.210 --> 05:00:50.460]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, uh, that's to be on the air.
[05:00:50.620 --> 05:00:53.900]  [SPEAKER_02]: 212-279-3400 to make a pledge.
[05:00:53.900 --> 05:01:00.340]  [SPEAKER_02]: And we do want to hear from people who, uh, have pledges to, uh, to send our way.
[05:01:01.680 --> 05:01:03.750]  [SPEAKER_02]: There are lots of things going on out there.
[05:01:04.220 --> 05:01:05.160]  [SPEAKER_02]: Lots of scary things.
[05:01:05.300 --> 05:01:07.400]  [SPEAKER_02]: Lots of, uh, exciting things.
[05:01:09.040 --> 05:01:11.540]  [SPEAKER_02]: There's nothing bad about high technology.
[05:01:11.680 --> 05:01:14.320]  [SPEAKER_02]: There's nothing bad about, uh, computers or telephones.
[05:01:14.530 --> 05:01:18.900]  [SPEAKER_02]: But put in the wrong hands and used for the wrong purposes.
[05:01:20.140 --> 05:01:21.660]  [SPEAKER_02]: There can be a lot wrong.
[05:01:21.860 --> 05:01:25.100]  [SPEAKER_02]: There can be a lot of scary things, scary effects.
[05:01:27.780 --> 05:01:32.860]  [SPEAKER_02]: What you'll hear in the media, the mainstream media, is computer hackers are the biggest threat.
[05:01:33.640 --> 05:01:37.780]  [SPEAKER_02]: The biggest threat to freedom and the biggest threat to you.
[05:01:38.840 --> 05:01:41.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I just do not think that is so.
[05:01:41.660 --> 05:01:48.890]  [SPEAKER_02]: I think that is a cover-up for the things that are really wrong with the structure of technology.
[05:01:51.160 --> 05:01:58.570]  [SPEAKER_02]: Computer hackers are the people that find holes, find bugs, and find wide-open operating systems.
[05:01:58.890 --> 05:02:06.030]  [SPEAKER_02]: And yes, occasionally they find data about you that's just lying out there waiting for anybody to come along and read it.
[05:02:08.740 --> 05:02:15.180]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, does that make them the threat, or does that make ineptitude the threat?
[05:02:17.360 --> 05:02:22.320]  [SPEAKER_02]: 212-279-3407 Give us a call for on-air.
[05:02:22.540 --> 05:02:25.620]  [SPEAKER_02]: 212-279-3400 Give us a call for a pledge.
[05:02:25.900 --> 05:02:26.680]  [SPEAKER_02]: Good morning.
[05:02:31.150 --> 05:02:32.030]  [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, wow.
[05:02:33.870 --> 05:02:36.170]  [SPEAKER_02]: I always dreamed about getting callers like this.
[05:02:37.190 --> 05:02:39.050]  [SPEAKER_02]: There's nothing but callers like this now.
[05:02:39.050 --> 05:02:39.330]  [SPEAKER_02]: Wow.
[05:02:41.510 --> 05:02:44.130]  [SPEAKER_02]: I guess everybody is busy taking a shower or something.
[05:02:44.290 --> 05:02:44.670]  [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.
[05:02:45.010 --> 05:02:46.190]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's that time of day for that.
[05:02:47.310 --> 05:02:52.570]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, WBAI's membership drive is running until the 25th.
[05:02:52.570 --> 05:02:58.570]  [SPEAKER_02]: And we need volunteers to staff the phones, days, nights, and weekends.
[05:02:59.550 --> 05:03:02.690]  [SPEAKER_02]: So, give us a call during business hours at...
[05:03:03.650 --> 05:03:04.930]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, yet another number.
[05:03:05.050 --> 05:03:09.110]  [SPEAKER_02]: 212-279-0707 If you want to sign up for a shift.
[05:03:09.710 --> 05:03:14.410]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's 212-279-0707 All right.
[05:03:15.470 --> 05:03:22.110]  [SPEAKER_02]: Again, a plea to give us a call at 212-279-3400 We've been with you now since 12 midnight.
[05:03:22.850 --> 05:03:25.050]  [SPEAKER_02]: And it's just about 6 o'clock in the morning.
[05:03:26.270 --> 05:03:27.470]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's been a long night.
[05:03:27.730 --> 05:03:29.010]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's been an educational night.
[05:03:29.150 --> 05:03:42.430]  [SPEAKER_02]: We've gone over a lot of details, a lot of topics, and learned a lot, I think, about the way phone companies, computer systems, and people in general operate.
[05:03:44.450 --> 05:03:49.470]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's a fun place to play around, this high-tech playground of ours.
[05:03:49.670 --> 05:03:53.150]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's something that's going to get more and more interesting as the years go on.
[05:03:53.950 --> 05:04:02.150]  [SPEAKER_02]: But we can only benefit from that if we partake in the knowledge, if we share the knowledge, if we don't keep things to ourselves.
[05:04:02.490 --> 05:04:05.630]  [SPEAKER_02]: So if you learn of something interesting, send it in.
[05:04:05.630 --> 05:04:12.430]  [SPEAKER_02]: Send it in to Off The Hook, care of WBAI, 505 8th Avenue, New York, New York, 10018.
[05:04:13.450 --> 05:04:18.810]  [SPEAKER_02]: Come by the next 2600 meeting, which will be the first Friday of June.
[05:04:19.430 --> 05:04:22.710]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's at the CityCorp Center, 5 p.m.
[05:04:22.770 --> 05:04:23.530]  [SPEAKER_02]: to 8 p.m.
[05:04:23.910 --> 05:04:27.650]  [SPEAKER_02]: And that's in the atrium area by the payphones, where else?
[05:04:27.650 --> 05:04:35.170]  [SPEAKER_02]: And the June meeting is my favorite because that's when the sun sets down every block of Manhattan.
[05:04:35.490 --> 05:04:39.310]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know that time of year where the sun sets parallel to the streets?
[05:04:39.310 --> 05:04:42.750]  [SPEAKER_02]: You look down every street to the west and the sun is there.
[05:04:43.090 --> 05:04:44.990]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's only one month of the year that happens.
[05:04:45.490 --> 05:04:47.750]  [SPEAKER_02]: And New York is the only city I know where that happens.
[05:04:48.630 --> 05:04:52.570]  [SPEAKER_02]: And that's kind of a special 2600 meeting for us.
[05:04:53.010 --> 05:04:55.370]  [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, we'll be there this...
[05:04:55.370 --> 05:04:56.590]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, not this Friday.
[05:04:56.650 --> 05:04:57.910]  [SPEAKER_02]: I guess it's the next Friday.
[05:04:57.970 --> 05:05:01.410]  [SPEAKER_02]: Whatever the first Friday of the month is, we'll be at CityCorp Center from 5 p.m.
[05:05:01.430 --> 05:05:02.030]  [SPEAKER_02]: to 8 p.m.
[05:05:02.030 --> 05:05:09.530]  [SPEAKER_02]: And if you have particular questions or bits of information you'd like to share, bring it on by there.
[05:05:10.830 --> 05:05:13.690]  [SPEAKER_02]: Again, our phone number is 212-279-3400.
[05:05:14.090 --> 05:05:19.230]  [SPEAKER_02]: We want to thank everybody who has called in during this six hours, although I'm sure quite a few of them are sleeping now.
[05:05:19.450 --> 05:05:20.650]  [SPEAKER_02]: We want to thank them anyway.
[05:05:20.990 --> 05:05:24.810]  [SPEAKER_02]: We want to thank those of you who will call because we know you will.
[05:05:25.090 --> 05:05:29.530]  [SPEAKER_02]: We know there's some point where people realize what the right thing to do is.
[05:05:30.550 --> 05:05:32.510]  [SPEAKER_02]: And we hope you realize that soon.
[05:05:33.170 --> 05:05:35.570]  [SPEAKER_02]: Because we only have about five minutes left.
[05:05:36.610 --> 05:05:38.670]  [SPEAKER_02]: 212-279-3400.
[05:05:38.930 --> 05:05:40.410]  [SPEAKER_02]: Please, make that call.
[05:05:40.650 --> 05:05:41.490]  [SPEAKER_02]: Make that pledge.
[05:05:42.630 --> 05:05:47.010]  [SPEAKER_02]: Help WBAI move a little further into the 90s.
[05:05:48.510 --> 05:05:49.930]  [SPEAKER_02]: This is Emmanuel Goldstein.
[05:05:50.090 --> 05:05:52.630]  [SPEAKER_02]: I've been with you for quite some time now.
[05:05:52.750 --> 05:05:58.150]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I will be back two weeks from last night, I guess.
[05:05:58.890 --> 05:06:01.290]  [SPEAKER_02]: In two weeks, Wednesday night from 9 to 10.
[05:06:01.290 --> 05:06:05.430]  [SPEAKER_02]: And that's the normal time period for off the hook.
[05:06:05.630 --> 05:06:13.210]  [SPEAKER_02]: The program about technology, high tech, and the fun and abuses that we have with it.
[05:06:14.490 --> 05:06:16.010]  [SPEAKER_02]: Please, let's get some calls.
[05:06:16.410 --> 05:06:18.630]  [SPEAKER_02]: 212-279-3400.
[05:06:19.050 --> 05:06:20.230]  [SPEAKER_02]: Again, thanks to everybody.
[05:06:20.430 --> 05:06:22.590]  [SPEAKER_02]: And sorry if I sound tired, but I am tired.
[05:06:22.590 --> 05:06:27.530]  [SPEAKER_02]: I've been on for six hours straight, and it's quite a lot of fun.
[05:06:28.130 --> 05:06:34.110]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm glad we had lots of people calling up asking questions and relaying experiences.
[05:06:34.890 --> 05:06:42.110]  [SPEAKER_02]: I encourage you to keep doing that, whether you're on bulletin boards, whether you're on the telephone, or whether you're writing in to us.
[05:06:42.870 --> 05:06:47.430]  [SPEAKER_02]: Please remember to keep your eyes open and keep asking questions.
[05:06:53.300 --> 05:06:56.640]  [SPEAKER_02]: This is WBAI, New York.