Oh, yeah, yeah, no place to hide, they're trying to find me, now I've got to judge two
to protect myself from men, cause I've never done nothing wrong, and I hate the dragon's
den, and I'm wanted, by my evil forces, yes.
Some music from Peter Tosh here on Off the Hook, and we need to see those phone lines
light up, it's 12.48, and we need to raise another $50 before the hour, that's right,
279-3400, there aren't many places where you can hear people like Bill Squire speak his
mind, and tell you just exactly what it was he was up to with the Bart scandal, we've
got a lot more coming your way, we've got a consumer expose on the phone companies, that'll
be coming up in just a couple of minutes, we've got Steve Jackson of Steve Jackson Games, who
has been kind enough to talk to us about his exploits, he's suing the Secret Service for
the raids of 1990, and we have a whole lot of other educational bits, but we do need to
see those phones ring, because that's the only thing that can ensure our survival in
the future, is to hear from our listeners, 212-279-3400, give us a call, make a pledge,
everybody that calls and pledges will receive a free copy of 2600 Magazine, as a personal
way of saying thank you, we want to thank Ted Gandolfo, JFK researcher who is going to donate
77, let me try that again, 77 inch reels of tape, that's right, 70 of them, and he's
already given us $200 matching funds, and we'll give another one next week, so that's
great, we need more people like that to help us out, every little bit counts, we've got
no phone lines lit, no phone lines lit, I know if we were asking for phone calls they'd all
be lit, think of the number of times that we have had listener feedback, we're going to
have lots of that later on tonight, we're on for 6 hours until 6 in the morning, but
we need to have those lines, at least 2 calls come in in the next couple of minutes, 212-279-3400,
we have volunteers standing by in the tally room, we've got for a pledge of $65, your choice
of one of the following, a WBAI t-shirt, a BAI tote bag, just imagine the conversations
you can start up at the supermarket checkout line with one of those, the WBAI baseball
cap, that's right, WBAI baseball cap, I never thought I'd see the day when we'd have one
of these, we've got cassettes for a $75 pledge, a 3 cassette package, media, censorship, and
the First Amendment, things that certainly apply to all of us, but we've got to hear from
the people out there to let us know that this kind of programming is valued, now, what you
are going to hear in the next few minutes is something that I guarantee you have not heard
anywhere else before, but it's something that will shatter, shatter your faith in the long
distance phone company system, now we've talked about divestiture, we've talked about the breakup
of the bell system, we've talked about the effects of that on the individual consumers,
but we've, you know, we've explored this so many times, and we've had hands-on experience,
and there are no other places that do that, I mean, we all watch TV occasionally, we see
the roving reporters who pretend to be on the side of the consumers, but they really
don't know what it is they're talking about, and this comes from first-hand knowledge, they
don't know what's going on, now, we know what's going on because we play with things live on
the air, we show you what's happening, we explain what it all means, now, that kind of
thing does not come cheap, you know, we have to, we have to pay the bills here, we've got
to keep our transmitter going, and all the other myriad things that come up in the day-to-day
operations of a 50,000-watt radio station in the middle of New York City.
WBAI is supported by its listeners, and right now, that means you, okay?
Our goal is $300,000, we're pretty far away from that, and we're also pretty far away from
our goals for this show, and I must say, that's kind of, kind of disturbing.
Let's see two calls come in, two calls come in, and that'll make me happy for at least
the next hour, you know, so if you're sitting around, make that call now, we take Visa, we
take MasterCard, and the important thing is not so much what we take, it's what we give,
and we give you the opportunity to be heard, we give you the opportunity to learn, and we
give the whole tri-state area a voice, a voice that would not be there, or not for this radio
station.
212-279-3400, please make that call.
Are we on the air?
Is the station off the air?
I don't see any response, and there's got to be something, something wrong with the mechanism
here.
212-279-3400, be that caller.
Pledge what you can afford.
But everybody that pledges something will receive a free copy of the Hacker Quarterly,
and possibly one of the many other things that we're offering for various pledge amounts.
The Tally Room people will be more than happy to help you out there.
There are WBAI listeners that have come in, volunteered their time.
We also need people to volunteer a ton, so do that.
Please come in and do whatever you can.
Make a donation of whatever you can.
212-279-3400.
We need two more calls in the next seven minutes.
Okay.
212-279-3400.
Now what we're going to hear after the next musical bit is a piece where the phone companies
are revealed for what they really are.
That's right.
A lot of people would not want you to hear this.
I am sure a lot of people in various big industry buildings right now are getting rather nervous
because we don't know, they don't know, if we're going to squash them over the airwaves
by revealing their practices.
We're going to do something.
We're going to do something that's going to outrage a few people.
Oh, the hotline is ringing.
Well, that means that something is up.
So, 212-279-3400.
Please show your support.
We need to know you're out there.
We need to know that there are people out there appreciating what we are doing today.
Okay?
Let's take some calls.
Let's take some calls, some listener calls, on our special line.
Okay?
For listener feedback.
That's 212-279-3407.
All right?
That's to hear from you, to hear from the listeners, to see what's on your minds.
Now, since we can't take calls on our regular lines because we're taking pledges on that line,
we have to give out a different number.
So, that's 212-279-3407.
And for those of you making pledges, it's 212-279-3400.
Ah-ha!
Ah-ha!
I caught you.
I knew it.
Those lines are lit up like a Christmas tree.
As soon as I ask for calls to go on the air, people call in immediately.
But if I ask for a little bit of support, a little bit of giving something back, the lines are dead.
There's nothing.
Folks, you made me resort to something I never wanted to do.
I never wanted to have to get our listeners to make fools of themselves by calling the number
and winking lights in front of me and proving to me that you're only interested in one thing,
and that's speaking your mind.
Okay, well, folks, you know, we're all interested in that.
We're all interested in standing up and saying something.
But, um, that's not something that, uh, that is free.
I'm sorry, it just is not.
I wish that it were.
We all wish that it were.
But, uh, we have to keep this station going.
You, me, everybody.
Everybody that cares about it.
Now, okay, I know now we're on the air.
I know now that my voice is going out and people are listening.
That's good.
Okay?
What's bad is the fact that all these people are on the wrong side of the switchboard.
Please.
We're going to take calls later.
We will.
And I'm sorry for, uh, you know, for having to demonstrate that on the air there.
We are going to take phone calls and we're going to squeeze everybody in sometime within the next hour.
But we do need to, uh, to make those numbers go up a little more.
It's, it's a, it's a good thing.
You know, it's not, um, it's not something negative.
Don't think of it as a negative thing, as, as people, uh, taking money from you.
That's not what we want to be thought of as.
BAI is, is a part of a lot of people's lives.
And most of us don't get paid here.
I certainly don't get paid for what I do here.
And I guess that's a good thing.
We want to be able to be here for you in the future.
We want to be able to bring you the programming that you want to hear.
We listen to you.
We listen to what you say to us.
And we give back whatever we can give back.
BAI is a world-famous radio station.
When I was over in Amsterdam, uh, wandering around, not paying for my, uh, my, uh, train rides,
people over there knew about WBAI.
In fact, uh, when I was in Berlin, I found a book in a bookstore about WBAI written in German.
You know, it's a world-famous radio station.
But we got there through people like you.
Through people like you that cared enough to call in and say, yeah, here's my show of support.
I mean, it really does make a difference.
This is not like, uh, uh, watching Dr. Gene Scott on TV where he makes something like $10 million a night just by saying call in and nobody knows what he's even talking about.
No.
That's not what we're all about here.
We're a station where every individual person counts.
Every individual person means something.
You know, one $25 pledge gets us closer.
A $50 pledge gets us even closer than that.
You know?
And before you know it, before you know it, it's, uh, in the hundreds and in the thousands and in the tens of thousands.
It happens, but it only happens through people like you.
We don't have corporate sponsorships.
We don't have huge grants coming our way.
We don't sell commercials.
You may have noticed that.
We don't have commercials.
Oh, it's not because we can't get sponsors.
Of course we could.
We've got a 50,000 watt radio station smack in the middle of the FM dial in New York City.
But we don't want to put commercials on because the moment we did that, the moment we did that, imagine what we're about to do right now with the phone companies.
Okay?
We've got this thing all queued up, ready to go.
Okay?
Now, all it takes is one phone company to be one of our major sponsors.
Imagine that.
Do you think they would continue to be a major sponsor if we played what we were about to play?
Of course not.
They would threaten to pull all of their advertisements.
And then that would put us in a bit of a bind because then we'd have to say, well, what's more important?
Is it more important to have this Emmanuel Goldstein character come in here and play his little expose on the phone companies?
Or is it more important for us to get hundreds of thousands of dollars from these big corporations?
I don't think there are many stations that would opt for me over the phone companies.
But WBAI is one of them because WBAI refuses to have commercials.
We will never have commercials as long as this radio station is in any similar light as it is now.
We will not do that.
It goes contrary to everything that we stand for.
So, how do we raise the money without commercials?
You, folks, you are our sponsors.
And that's why we need you to call.
212-279-3400.
I want to thank the people that have called in.
And, uh, please, we know it's, uh, 1 o'clock in the morning.
We're going to be here for another 5 hours.
We've got all kinds of neat things planned.
We really do.
And we're going to take those phone calls.
I do apologize to those people that called in before and, uh, you know, to my little tirade there.
But it had to be said.
It just had to be said.
212-279-3400.
I hope we made our goal because I did see some calls come in there.
And it sure would be nice.
It would make me feel great to know that there are people out there that care.
All right.
We're going to play a musical bit here from the specials.
And then, folks, get ready.
You might want to make some phone calls beforehand.
We've got about, uh, three minutes here before we start.
We're going to, uh, do an expose on long-distance phone companies and how they interrelate.
Remember that number.
212-279-3400.
212-279-3400.
What you're going to do?
Just drop in on you.
We won't go away.
Because we've come out to stay.
Stand there like a car, because if you want to, we can force you to enjoy this music.
Take it or leave it, we'll carry on regardless.
If you don't like it, you don't.
It's up to you.
It's up to you.
It's up to you.
It's up to you.
It's up to you.
It's up to you.
It's up to you.
It's up to you.
Looks like a case of a blind
Leave the debt to me
You must be bored out of your pants
Take it, I'll leave it, we'll carry on regardless
If you don't like it, you don't have to dance
It's up to you
It's up to you
It's up to you
It's up to you
In London, town, you can hear the youth of them say
Take one in
It's up to you what you really want to do
For you were standing on the corner giving trouble
When the policeman comes
He says you'll have to move on the double
Yeah
So stepping up the street with my little girl
With the staples who were anchors
It's up to her what she really want to do
It's up to you, you and strictly you and you
What you gonna do
When morons come for you
And they won't go away
They want the whole world painted gray
It's up to you
It's up to you
It's up to you
It's up to you
It's up to you
It's up to you
It's up to you
It's up to you
It's up to you, it's up to you, it's up to you, it's up to you, it's up to you, it's up to you, it's up to you, of course, winner of an award, which we're not quite certain we've won yet, so we're not going to mention it.
And it's confused the operator, where we reach out and grab some poor soul and try to make them wish they had never been born.
It's all in good fun.
Now, let me preface this by explaining something to our listeners.
When the phone company broke up back in 1984, basically you were left with your local phone company, which in our case is called New York Telephone, okay?
New York Telephone is our local phone company.
When you pick up the phone, they're the ones that give you the dial tone.
And then, you have your long-distance companies, and among the long-distance companies are AT&T, Sprint, and MCI, okay?
Those are three long-distance companies.
Now, the whole term of the breakup was that there is no connection and everybody is equal.
In other words, AT&T, MCI, and Sprint are all equal now, and there is no connection between AT&T, Sprint, MCI, or your local phone company, New York Telephone.
No connection whatsoever.
So, let's reach out and touch a New York Telephone operator and ask her what the story is here.
Sometimes it takes them a long time.
New York Telephone. One moment, please.
They have to play that now. It's a lock.
Operator?
Yes, hello. I was wondering if you can connect me to an MCI operator.
I don't know the number. Let me connect the information.
This is information, isn't it?
Yes.
And I suppose there's a charge for this call.
That was a very nasty thing to do for that operator to connect me to you, isn't it?
Oh, well.
What is it you wanted?
Well, I wanted to be connected to an MCI operator, and the local operator connected me to information.
And I know there's a charge for information, so now I'm going to have to pay 45 cents for this call, and I won't even get an MCI operator, will I?
No, hold it. Why she did that? Because I have to give you the number for the MCI operator.
Okay, what's the number for the MCI operator?
Hold on a second.
This ought to be good.
And that's the number you don't have to pay?
The 800 number?
An 800 number, okay.
444-3333.
444-3333.
344-3333.
Right.
Okay.
They have one first.
All right.
And that's 800 call.
Right.
All right.
Have a good night.
Thank you.
You too.
Good night.
Now, what she didn't mention, of course, was that that was local information.
I could have called 800 information and gotten an 800 number and not paid anything.
But that's not how they do things in the phone company, is it?
Okay.
So, that's what happens when we try asking for an MCI operator from our local New York telephone operator.
Okay.
Makes sense.
There's no connection.
They shouldn't tell us.
They shouldn't be able to connect us to a long-distance operator, right?
Of course not.
Doesn't make sense.
Let's see if they connect us to a sprint operator.
Here's a stupid recording again.
New York telephone.
One moment, please.
Miss, why can I help you?
Yes.
Hi, operator.
I was wondering if you could connect me to a U.S. sprint operator.
What is the number?
I'm trying to reach U.S. sprint.
Do they have a toll-free number?
Well, that's what I don't know.
Just an operator.
You know, a long-distance operator.
Who are you calling?
Long-distance?
Yeah, I'm trying to get long-distance.
One moment, please.
One moment for an operator who can assist you.
Thank you.
Now, she's connecting me to long-distance.
I asked for sprint.
I wonder if I'll get sprint.
AT&T.
Oh, this is AT&T?
Yes.
It's funny, because I asked my local operator to connect me to Sprint.
Oh, okay.
You want to try it again?
Well, can you connect me to Sprint?
No, no, sir.
Can you tell me how to call Sprint?
We have no idea how to call each other carrier.
You don't know how to call them?
We don't know how to call Sprint or MCI.
So I guess you use AT&T, too, then.
Of course.
All right.
Okay.
Well, thanks anyway.
You're welcome.
Okay.
Well, then, we know that AT&T...
Okay, we've got to start writing this down here.
AT&T will not tell us how to reach Sprint.
New York Telephone, when asked to connect us to Sprint, will connect us to AT&T.
And New York Telephone, when asked to connect us to MCI, will connect us to information, which will then charge us.
All right.
There's still a couple other things we have to try here.
We have to try calling our local operator and asking for AT&T.
Maybe they'll connect us to MCI, okay?
Maybe it's just a clerical blunder.
Stupid recording time.
New York Telephone.
One moment, please.
Sure.
No problem.
I've got plenty of time.
Just sit here and wait for this stupid recording.
Yes.
Hello, operator.
I was wondering if you could connect me to the AT&T operator.
Sure.
Sure.
No problem.
Oh, wonderful.
One moment for an operator who can assist you.
How nice.
You know...
Thank you.
It's amazing to think that there's no connection between these companies anymore.
Well, let's ask AT&T if they can connect us or tell us how to call MCI.
AT&T.
Hi.
I was wondering if you could tell me how to call the MCI operator.
I have no idea, sir.
I'm AT&T.
You're AT&T and you have no...
Okay.
All right.
Thanks anyway.
Thank you.
I happen to know...
I've been holding out on you folks.
I happen to know the number for the MCI operator.
That's not the number they gave us.
That was like the business office.
This will get us an actual operator.
And we can ask the MCI operator if they know how to connect us or if they know how to tell
us to dial AT&T.
Let's see how fair this whole system is.
Thank you for calling the MCI.
This is Jan.
How may I help you?
Hi.
I was wondering if you could possibly tell me how to call an AT&T operator.
Yes, I can.
It's 1-0-2-8-8-plus-0.
Okay.
That's great.
I was wondering, do you possibly know why AT&T never tells you how to call MCI, but MCI
seems to always tell you how to call AT&T?
Because we're better people.
You know, I was toying with that idea.
I think that might be it.
Thanks very much.
You're just great guys.
Yeah, well, I think you're approving that here.
Thank you very much.
Thank you for calling MCI.
Okay.
Good night.
Good night.
All right, let's try one more phone call here, and this will be to U.S. Sprint.
All right.
I also have the number for their operators.
Let's see if they'll tell us how to call AT&T.
I hope you're writing all this down, too, folks, because it's confusing us as well as
the operators, but we're certainly learning something here.
It's a sobering thing.
Oh, by the way, we're going to get a tone here first, and then it's going to turn into
an operator.
It's kind of a silly system, but that's the way they do it.
Just waiting for the tone to go around is what we're doing.
Here we go.
Speed at long distance, may I help you?
Yes, hi.
I was wondering if you could possibly tell me how to connect to an AT&T operator.
Okay, sir.
For the phone you're using, you dialed the 1-800 number to reach Sprint, correct?
I dialed the 1-800 number, yes, but I just wanted to know if it was possible for me to
dial an AT&T operator and how to do that.
Well, okay, not knowing what you're dialing from, normally you could either dial 00 depending
on who your phone's pre-subscribed to.
Uh-huh.
If you had to dial a 1-800 number to reach me, you may have Sprint on your line.
I mean, you may have AT&T, excuse me, in which case you could dial 00.
If not, you could dial their access code, sir, and I could give that to you.
Okay, what's that?
It's 1-0-2-8-8-0.
Okay, 1-0-2-8-8-0 will get me AT&T.
I'd like to ask you something, I'll have you on the line.
Yes, sir.
How come, when I ask AT&T the same question with regards to Sprint, they never tell you
how to get a hold of Sprint, but Sprint almost always tells you how to get a hold of AT&T.
Is there a reason for that?
Well, we're just trained to provide whatever information the customer asks.
I see.
Well, I'm glad you are.
Thanks very much.
And thank you for using Sprint, sir.
You have a good day.
You too.
What nice people.
And folks, hopefully you'll think twice now when you stand up on your soapbox and say
AT&T has been around for centuries and they're the better long-distance company.
Well, look at what they're doing here.
They're refusing to tell you how to get a hold of their competition.
And they're still in bed with a local phone company, New York Telephone.
New York Telephone connects you to AT&T.
They don't connect you to Sprint.
They don't connect you to MCI.
I rest my case.
That's, uh, that's all for Confuse the Operator today.
Confuse the Consumer is more like it.
But the best consumer is an outraged consumer.
And keep that in mind.
Had enough?
Well, give us a call.
212-279-3400.
Show your support for WBAI radio at its most controversial.
Show on.
I've had enough of being nice.
I've had enough of fighting wrong.
I've had enough of trying to love my brother.
Ooh, I've had enough of being good.
I'm doing everything like I'm told I should.
If you need a lover, you better find a lover.
Life is for the living.
Ooh, yeah.
I've had enough of being tired of the dawn.
I've had enough of being tired of the dawn.
My messy days are gonna be long.
I've had enough of being tired of the dawn.
If you've got one cheek, well, I ain't gonna turn the other.
I've had enough of being tired of the dawn.
I've had enough of being tired of the dawn.
If you get on the wrong side of me, you better run for cover.
I've had enough of being tired of the dawn.
My messy days are gonna be long gone.
If you've got one cheek, well, I ain't gonna turn the other.
I've had enough of being tired of the dawn.
I've had enough of being tired of the dawn.
I've had enough of being tired of the dawn.
Life is for the living.
Takers never give me.
Fooling your heart.
I'll say.
I'll say.
Here comes the end.
Here comes the end
Here comes the end of the world
guitar solo
Oh, I'm getting sick of this universe
Ain't gonna get better, it's gonna get worse
And the world's gonna sink with the weight of the human race
Hate and fear in every face
I'm getting ready in a pack of days
If you find somewhere better
Can't you save my place?
Fooled in, no one
But also, love is dying
Here comes the end
Here comes the end
Around the world
Well, it may not be the end of the world
But, you know, when they try to put it to you by fooling you, by saying things that are not true
Could be the end of an intelligent choice, let's put it that way
I hope a lot of folks learn something by what you just heard
Not the who
The who are great, I mean, yeah, you can learn a lot from them
Especially how to express your anger
But I'm referring to the phone companies
And how equal access is not as equal as it might seem
And how it's actually just more confusing for all of you
And that's a tragedy
Okay, we want to encourage people to call us up
And help keep this radio station going
Help us keep bits like that coming your way
Because I have every intention of devoting every hour of my waking day
To finding things like that
And to sharing them with you
But in order for there to be a place for me to do this
A place where we don't have to worry about AT&T pulling all of its spots
Because imagine that
I mean, I could not go on the talk radio station
Whatever that might be this week
I could not do that
No way
They would not stand for it
Because AT&T would get very angry
And not only would they pull their spots
They may pull their phones
Who knows?
We don't have concerns like that here
But we do have other concerns
And they're a bit more pressing
We need to stay afloat
And you can help us do that
212-279-3400
And every pledge that comes in
We'll get a free copy of 2600
The Hacker Quarterly
Sent to wherever it is you want us to send it
And you'll learn quite a bit from that publication
It's been coming out now since 1984
And has been enlightening people and enraging people
Left and right
The magazine with no enemies has no friends
That's sort of what we like to say
Why is someone holding a can of kidney beans up on the monitor there?
I'm trying to figure out what red kidney beans
What kind of a message could that be conveying?
I'm not quite certain
Not quite certain
Okay, well progress is something that we definitely want
212-279-3400
Area code
212
Please give us a call
And show your support for the radio station
Now, we're going to take some phone calls
Some, yes, some over-the-air phone calls
And this is not a trick, folks
Not like last time
212-279-3407
For that
And we'll be getting to that in just a couple of minutes
Let's give you a rundown of some of the things that you can get
Boy, those calls sure come in fast
I don't mean to say it again
But those calls really come in fast when I give that number out
I just wish I could see, you know
All the lines light up on the pledge line
That would make me feel so good
But I guess there's only so much you can hope for in this life
If, though, you are feeling generous
Or if you can spare some change
If you can use your Visa or MasterCard
Do give a call to 279-3400
Because every call counts
And that's not false sincerity there
That is the truth
That is the real truth
Every person counts
Unlike those evangelistical places
That you might hear
Asking for money constantly, every day
We only do this three times a year
And it's kept us going this far
Please help us keep going into the future
We don't want to end up like New York City
We don't want to be crumbling and falling apart
And cutting things that don't deserve to be cut
No, we don't want that to happen
Imagine if that did happen
It would be awful
It would be absolutely horrible
So, help us stay afloat
212-279-3400
For a pledge of $150
You can become part of the Learning Alliance
For the fall semester
You can take any course
From October to January
The fall semester runs from October to January
And they range in topics from ecology, feminism, areas, community
Subject matters, humor, that kind of thing
And that's for a pledge of $150
Become a part of the Learning Alliance
For a pledge of $500
Sounds like a lot of money
I guess it is a lot of money
But if you can afford $500
You can get something that's worth much more than $500
Much more
That's a one-year unlimited admission
For two people
To the new community cinema of Huntington, Long Island
That's right
So if you're out there on Long Island
And you like seeing films
You like seeing films a lot
And you know someone else that likes seeing films a lot
You can go every day
You can go more than once a day
You can go in and go back out
And come back in again
You can do anything
It's an unlimited admission
Unlimited
For an entire year
And that's worth much more than $500
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Alright
We have some readings to share with you
And we'll be going to the phones in just a moment
A couple more things from the Risks Digest
Found on the internet
Boy that record is scratchy isn't it
Your pledge dollars helped us get a CD player
Unfortunately we don't have this on CD
But I just think where we'd be
If we didn't have those pledges of the past
Help us for the future
212-279-3400
And this piece comes from
Eindhoven in Holland
And it concerns the whole
Topic of hacking
Computer hacking
And
The Dutch interpretation
And the controversy that's been
Flying around over the ocean
And through the networks
As to
How the Dutch interpretation
Of what is right and what is wrong
Is going to affect us here in the United States
And whether
Our interpretation
Is going to conflict violently
With their interpretation
This posting comes from
Herman Waltring of Eindhoven
In essence
Most postings on this particular newsletter
The Risks Digest
Make generalizations and comparisons
Which are typical of civil law
Comparisons abound
Of physical trespassing
Or breaking and entering
With unauthorized access
To insufficiently secure
Information systems
No passwords
Known system passwords
Or simplistic passwords
At this time
Various countries
Including mine
Have not decided yet
To what extent
Computer trespassing
Should be declared
A criminal offense
Therefore
The choice is not
In the words of
This person who had
Written from the UK
The law has to take a stance
It can protect the interests
Of legitimate users
By making unauthorized access illegal
Or
It can protect
It can protect
Unauthorized users
By making it legal
It's not that
But to decide
Whether the latter
Should be declared
A criminal offense
Since it is currently not
While it may be
Unlawful under civil law
Depending on the party's arguments
In front of a rather
Passive judge
I like what I'm seeing
The decision involves
Policy matters
Of a wider scope
Than just the alleged
Criminality of the behavior
In question
Is it opportune
To widen the scope
Of so-called criminal acts
To what extent
Is civil law
Capable of handling
These problems
Is hacking by external intruders
Really so serious
As suggested
In the press
What about
Internal theft
Within institutions
And organizations
Is this much more serious
Should society as a whole
Because of the
Taxpayer's funding
Of the public prosecutor's office
Bear the burden
For some private interest
Or public institutions
Who are too lazy
To guard their own doorstep
These are some of the questions
Posed or implied
In the preliminary comments
From the standing committee
On the judiciary
And the Dutch
House of Representatives
I may have been
Slightly obscure
In my
Dagoberg duck example
DD is certainly
Liable in civil law
For soliciting criminal behavior
In all likelihood
His insurance
Will not pay his damages
And I should think
That too blatantly
Flaunting one's richness
Might even be
Sufficiently anti-social
To qualify as criminal
The kind of behavior
That causes revolutions
The example of the lady
Who enters a singles bar
Is inappropriate
It is a public place
For which different rules
Exist
Unless
The behavior
Should be interpreted
As turning vaults
Into such a public place
But
Even in a public place
You may have to pay
For services rendered
Or products provided
I submit
That criminal law
Is not the equivalent
Of John Wayne
Riding into your village
And protecting
Your peaceful
And law-abiding community
From the nasty crowd
That has been invading you
From Mexico
Or Holland
Don't cry for a strong man
Who will wipe out
Your troubles
With a six-gun
But make sure
That you take
Appropriate measures
To guard your own doorstep
However
Do so
With commensurate means
Rather than by soliciting crime
Through overkill
There are too many guns
On the street already
If you succeed
In convincing
Your legislators
That computer trespassing
Is tantamount
To hijacking a plane
Fine
But do realize
The consequences
When somebody
Quite by mistake
Lands up
In the wrong account
Or tries to find back
His own
Accidentally deleted data
I believe
That computer users
Deserve adequate protection
Under the law
Not that unauthorized users
Deserve more protection
Than authorized users
At present
Authorization exists
By default
Under some countries
Criminal law
And the question is
Simply to what extent
This authorization
Should be withdrawn
The problem reminds me
Of the current struggle
On software copyright
A new right is about
To be born
Namely the exclusion
Of fair dealing
Under British copyright law
Which has entitled you
Up to now
To study
And review
A software package
In object code
By decompiling
Or disassembling it
In order to find out
About its functional properties
Whether this information
Is to be used
For publishing
A critical review
In a journal
Or for making
A competing
And hopefully better
Software package
The European communities
Are in the process
Of accepting a directive
Of accepting a directive
On software protection
In which such activities
Are declared illegal
As regards the central core
Of a software package
Interface aspects
May be analyzed
Confidentially
And software maintenance
May be performed
By or on behalf
Of legitimate users
While the proposed directive
Claims that the central ideas
Etc.
Will remain free
And unprotected
And quite appropriately so
Under the copyright doctrine
You may not obtain those ideas
From the package
Unless you are licensed
To do so
The proposed directive
Curtails former
Fair use
Fair dealing rights
Substantially
For example
How could Shakespeare
Lawfully determine
Under such a system
Whether indeed
His way of making
Thunder
Had been stolen
In other words
Can patent infringement
Be legitimately assessed
Under this new
Protection scheme
Or do we need
Anton Piller
Orders for that
If so
How do we collect
The evidence
To convince the judge
That such an order
Is appropriate
I am not saying
That hacking is fair
But I do claim
That the criminalizing
Responses
On this forum
Are incompatible
With the extent
Of its unfairness
Alas
There are no
Simple solutions
And that's why
My reply
Has become so lengthy
That came from
Herman Waltring
In Eindhoven
In the Netherlands
On the Risks Digest
Which was
Distributed over the internet
In the Netherlands
And that's why
What happened on this
First half Motors
Until first one
We have to
find the choice


and it's one more piece from
Leonard Erickson and we'll go to the phone calls
I agree with Richard O'Keefe's comments
in risks volume 11 number 58
several of the well-known holes are exactly
equivalent to well-known holes with locks
for example a certain major brand of bicycle lock can be picked
with a piece of bent wire in approximately five seconds
as I once demonstrated to an employer who was going to use one to secure some
valuable items
likewise many operating systems have equally bad shortcomings in their
security if you are knowledgeable
the user should only have limited responsibility for operating system
holes especially since as many have noted there may be nothing they can do
about it if for example you're running a TRS 80 model one you cannot fix the
holes in its operating system it would cost more than the entire system is worth
and if you are using such an old item you either are broke or have a very compelling
reason on the other hand you had better not be counting on it being secure ignorance may be forgivable the first time after that you have no excuse for continuing to keep valuables in an unsafe environment
default passwords and accounts are a bit different the user can change those
just as when you buy a briefcase with a combo lock you can either change the combo from the factory default
or you can accept responsibility for any unauthorized access
note however that just because I haven't changed the combination on my briefcase
and thus have some responsibility for any resulting losses
that in no way affects the underlying fact that it is wrong to attempt to open my lock briefcase without permission
unauthorized use of the password is no different
from unauthorized use of a combination the password may be stupid but you still have no business messing with the lock
your curiosity regarding the contents of my briefcase or even merely as to whether I've changed the combo does not give you the right to try and find out
likewise a cracker's curiosity doesn't give him the right to go where he isn't wanted
what do you think 212-279-3407 for calls
212-279-3400 for pledges
use of others
United States
And as Vangelis fades off into the distance, again, we will be going to phone calls.
And presently, we have Steve Jackson coming up. Steve Jackson, of course, was somebody that ran into quite a bit of problems with the whole definition of what hacking is and what is right and what is wrong.
Our number is 212-279-3407.
And 212-279-3400. We'll be getting to that Steve Jackson interview in just a couple of minutes.
But first, we want to know if there are any questions, comments, or that kind of thing out there.
The program is off the hook. We're on the air until 6 o'clock in the morning as part of our special marathon programming here on WBAI.
Good evening. You're on.
Hello. You have reached reality. The next voice you will hear will be that of Eric Blair.
Hello. This is Eric Blair from Beyond the Pale. And you are in 1984 and counting.
Big Brother is well on his way with perhaps 90% of the public being taken in by the con of the Bush-Ragan oligarchy and the military-industrial enterprise,
which will go where no men and women have ever gone before.
We are using now an earthling to carry on the discussion.
How are you doing there?
How is this the earthling?
It's always good to hear your program, although at times I think that you're getting to the point of suggesting that we do all kinds of nefarious things.
But my only problem is that even earlier today, had you been listening to WBAI, which is a station, the station, which I most love and listen to consistently also,
although sometimes I double listen to other stations, you know, like WNYC, AM, and WABC.
Are you going to make reference to another program?
I know what's going on with the rest of the world, and there are some wonderful things happening.
I feel that, and I think you and I and some other of the good people, I call that a Joy Walker, should have a day or a week or a month of what is freedom of speech in its truest and fullest essence.
And I'll leave you with this one thought, that even a person who is totally against what I say, totally on the other side of an issue,
I will listen to with respect, and I will mull over what I believe, I will look for new evidence, I will question myself, I will question the other person, I will question other people,
I will do everything in my limit to respect that person, and then to try to come to even a better understanding of what our knowledge is and truth and so forth, you know, because there is the Rashomon effect.
Do you have any questions?
Do I have any questions? No, I just want to encourage you to keep doing that.
Well, I am, and I want you to know I got a whistle that is bejeweled.
Apparently, it's the first of a kind that has been awarded to a whistleblower, but I think even there are greater whistleblowers than I.
We have to be always vigilant, as the Zen people say, you know, you always have to be ready for, shall we say, a blow of this sort or a blow of that sort, you know,
nature, you know, doing its number on you, fellow human beings doing theirs and so forth, the government doing it, and so on.
But the point is that your program does help us to keep ever vigilant, I mean, as you showed with those different phone company attempts to reach, you know,
and how some people are cooperative and some people aren't and so forth like this.
I will tell you this, though, that there are members of the staff of WBAI who are allowed to perform as members of WBAI
who I don't think have earned the right on the basis of freedom of speech.
Now, they may be able to learn.
Now, what we encourage you to do, then, is, you know, show your support during another program and write letters.
Well, I mean, I have, I give, I'm an original subscriber to WBAI, you know, I don't sound like an old man, you know,
but I am an original subscriber, I've subscribed for almost every one of the 31 years I stopped when...
And a very familiar voice on the airwaves.
...having this problem just to show solidarity with them, and unfortunately, it proved to me to be somewhat of a turnaround thing,
as some people understand, but anyway, carry on, I want to hear other people, and I thank you,
I hope my little creativity has some impact on the universe. Thank you.
Okay, thanks for calling.
We'll be back.
212-279-3407.
That's our telephone number for calls, but please, let's see those lines light up.
I mean, we're jammed over here, you know, we've got the whole switchboard lit up on the call-in side,
and there's absolutely no calls coming in on the pledge side.
Please, show your support for the radio station.
Right now, you can't get through on the call-in line, so if you make that call, you know, if you make that pledge,
then you'll be able to call in later, you know?
But more importantly, you'll be helping us keep up what it is that we're doing.
It's that simple.
212-279-3400 to make a pledge, and everybody that calls in will get a free copy,
along with their pledge of 2600, The Hacker Quarterly,
where you can learn all kinds of things that you never knew were possible.
And that's no joke.
Good evening.
Yes, am I on the air?
Yes, you are.
What are your connections to Sprint and MCI?
What are you making out of this?
How much money?
How much money am I making out of this?
Well, I'm sure it was destiny that somebody eventually asked this.
I called just as an annoyed consumer because, you know, I'll tell you something.
There was not a single edit in that whole piece, but I knew they were going to do exactly that.
And if you call them now, I invite you to call MCI, call Sprint, and then call AT&T
and see who will tell you how to access that company.
Yeah, but that is not a judge of a company.
Well, it's a judge of their policies, don't you?
It's not a judge of their service, and you made it clear that you said my case rests.
But that's not a judge of the company.
AT&T is a much better company than Sprint and MCI.
Sprint and MCI have claimed to have tremendous savings when you call them,
when you use their services, but you don't get tremendous services.
Maybe you may save a couple of pennies now.
But their whole advertisements have been, when they first came out,
that you make tremendous savings.
You don't make tremendous savings.
They have been phony to us.
And AT&T has not?
No, because whatever charges they have claimed are the charges you get.
But Sprint and MCI says you have great savings, and you don't have great savings.
You may have a couple of pennies or maybe 20 cents or 10 cents, and that's it.
This sounds word for word like a commercial I just saw on TV.
But the thing is, I'm not saying who has the lowest prices.
I'm talking about one particular aspect of service, and that's how you deal with the competition.
You said that which company was best.
That AT&T is not good compared to Sprint and MCI, and you base it only on if they will give you access numbers.
Yeah, I think that's a very good way to judge a company.
Which company is best?
First of all, I did not say MCI or Sprint is best.
I said judge it by what you have heard.
And we heard a company deliberately not tell you a bit of information,
because that is their corporate policy, not to tell you about the other alternatives.
You don't give phone numbers for your competition either.
The point is, you don't have to give competition there.
If you want to have Sprint and MCI, there's plenty of ways of getting hold of Sprint and MCI,
because they have advertisements and they have advertisements on TV.
You want to call Sprint and MCI, you can call them.
You don't have to give the phone number to the competition.
There's no law saying that, and there's nothing wrong with denying it.
But when you see the company that is number one by far,
refusing to give any information about the competition,
and the competition, which is much smaller, is giving the information about number one,
that's got to tell you something about integrity.
There's nothing phony about not giving access to the other phone company.
There's plenty of other ways of getting it.
I'm not accusing them of phoniness.
I'm accusing them of just not giving information out,
which they really, in my view, should give out.
There's a lot of confused people out there.
But it has nothing to do with integrity.
I disagree.
It has nothing to do with honesty.
It has nothing to do with that.
You're totally misleading us, or you're attempting to.
There is no connection between that and integrity.
Well, I disagree.
I believe the integrity of AT&T has been besmirched by this little demonstration.
But I'd like to hear what other people have to say.
Thanks for calling.
Take care.
I'll bet I know what his long-distance carrier is.
Oh, boy.
212-279-3407 for phone calls.
212-279-3400 for pledges.
Please make those pledges.
Good morning.
Yeah, I wanted to ask you.
You seem to know a lot about the telephone company, right?
Well, the telephone companies, yeah, there's many of them now.
Okay.
This is rather technical.
I have many questions, and I'll hang up and let you go.
One is, are you aware, and I can't give it out over the air,
are you aware that there's a certain code that you can punch where,
let's say, if you're in someone's house,
and you want to get that person's number?
Because I used to tell people, I think, years ago,
that you don't ever put your, you know, home phone number in the glass window
or the window that's on your phone, you know, the one that's...
Right.
Yeah, that's fairly well known.
Are you in New York State?
Yeah.
And the number is 958, right?
Is that what you're referring to?
Yeah.
Okay.
Well, that's known as ANAC, the Automatic Number something.
It's an automatic number announcement.
I think that's what it stands for.
And that tells you from your local central office what your telephone number is.
It's a useful service to have.
When you call the operator, she won't tell you what your phone number is for some reason.
But I guess it could be used against somebody
if you access a certain phone number somehow and it doesn't belong to you.
Right, right, right.
But it's also important that people know that they can get their phone number by doing that.
You know, if you're hooking up phone wires and, you know, by your living room or something
and you're trying to figure out which line is coming up,
how else are you going to know which line is which?
Yeah, yeah.
Oh, yeah.
No, I'm saying, like, if you're in someone's house
and they don't know your home phone number,
I could say, sir, do you mind if I borrow your phone?
Right.
And I'll say I'm calling somebody, I give the guy a quarter.
But, sir, you know, there's a much easier way to get the same information.
You simply call yourself collect from that phone
and then when the phone bill comes, you've got their phone number on your phone bill.
All right, let me get that straight.
You call yourself collect?
Let's say you're at a friend's house, right?
He refuses to tell you what the phone number is
and 958 does not work from his house.
You simply say, okay, can I make a collect call?
And you have your wife or whatever at home
and she picks up the phone and accepts your collect call from the friend's house.
When you get your phone bill, the number that the collect call came from
is going to be on the phone bill.
Right.
Or, a better idea, get one of those personal 800 numbers
that only cost about $10 or $20 a month
and when you get your phone bill on that,
you just call the 800 number from your friend's house.
When you get your 800 phone bill, you'll see the phone number you called from.
So there's lots of ways to find out the number.
Right, okay, you're right.
Now, here's another question.
I have heard this.
This is something similar but a little different.
Okay.
Two questions.
One is that if somebody has a Mac-and-Charge computer
or a fairly good computer has at least one megabyte or more,
is there some type of way they can tap into the telephone company,
into 9X, to get unlisted numbers under somebody?
That's one.
And two, is there also some type of code or book
given out to investigators or whatever for unlisted numbers?
Well, I'm not sure I understand.
The first question is what again?
Okay, the first question is let's say you're a person who has a Mac-and-Charge computer
or an 8 megabyte or 6 megabyte or 4 megabyte computer with a phone modem.
And I heard that there is some way, but you really have to be pretty good at it
and it's not easy to do.
You tap into the telephone company and you can get actually unlisted telephone numbers,
telephone numbers that aren't listed.
And addresses will be addresses because the address is a link to the number
or the service address.
That's why you get the address.
First of all, you don't need to have a Macintosh or any particular kind of computer.
You simply need to have access to a modem, to a terminal,
to something that can get you access to another computer.
And yes, if you can tap into a particular phone company computer...
There are certain security codes, right?
I'm sorry?
There are certain security codes, right?
Oh, yeah, but if they're left in the default settings
or if you're able to social engineer it out of somebody,
that means calling somebody and getting them to give you the password.
It happens all the time.
You can access a particular kind of computer,
and there's many different kinds throughout the different phone companies of the world.
Let's say a New York telephone.
Okay, you would access a particular computer there.
I believe the Elmo system would probably tell you everything you need it to know.
You could do it by name or number or just by name.
Let's say you don't know number, you don't know address,
so you have to go by name or address or something.
Well, I haven't actually ever done this.
Oh, I know that.
No, I know that.
No, I mean, I really haven't actually done this.
So I'm not certain that it's the particular system
or what the particular command would be,
but it's my understanding that if you have particular bits of information
such as the customer's name or the customer's address,
it's not hard at all to find unlisted phone numbers.
I know several occasions where someone was being harassed
and they would change their phone number
and the people harassing them would be able to call them
before the phone company called them
and tell them what their new number was going to be.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Well, I'm not talking about myself.
I don't do stuff like that.
I'm talking about more for like police work or other types of work.
Okay, one other question.
The police can always find you.
That's rule number one.
And a private detective, if he's any good, can also always find you.
Yeah, yeah.
Unless, of course, you don't have a telephone
or don't have things that they could have access to, like telephone.
Well, that makes it a whole lot harder.
But these days they make it almost impossible for you to live without those things.
Yeah, that's true.
All right.
One other thing I'll let you go.
Okay, I mentioned a computer.
Is there also some type of, like the 958,
is there some type of thing where you could dial someone's number
and punch in a code and get a number?
That's number one.
And number two, is there some type of book listed either by name or number
or address that has unlisted numbers that the 9X or New York Telephone makes?
Well, okay, the second question first.
Okay.
Now, when you call information and they say a number is unlisted,
they cannot see that number.
The number is there, but it's prevented from being seen on the computer screen.
Right, it's lit up in white.
It's like the area where the number is supposed to be.
It's like on a computer when a computer flashes a particular word
except you can't see the word.
It's like a bar or something, a white bar.
I'm not sure exactly what it looks like, but the address does.
The address does show up there, but the operator does not even see the number.
But the number is there.
It's just not being seen.
The phone company obviously has all this information
because how else would they bill people with unlisted phone numbers?
So, yes, it exists.
It's there.
It's just blocked out from certain people.
Now, I wasn't quite sure I understood the first question
where you said get somebody's phone number by dialing something.
Well, yeah.
No, I was saying, okay, let's say somebody dials my house.
Uh-huh.
Um, or they don't, or some way, all right, let's say they dial my house.
Um, is there some, like, similar to the 958?
Is there some type of service where, uh...
Are you talking about caller ID?
Uh, no, not caller ID.
I know that.
That's on the receiver.
No, there's a person.
I would be the one that has that.
Okay.
But the person calling me, uh, can they punch in some type of code
either as I pick up the phone or before or whatever.
I don't understand.
They're calling you.
They already know what number they're calling, right?
What?
If they're calling you, they already know your number.
Why would they want to punch in?
Oh, I'm sorry.
Other information.
Oh, right, right.
I'm sorry.
Now I'm getting mixed up.
Okay.
It's not hard to do.
I know.
Right.
Yeah, I'm sorry.
But there's no printed book, like a listed book.
Is there an unlisted book?
Well, uh, there is no book that is published and made available,
but I'm sure that there are printouts that come out of the phone company
that have all kinds of private information
that probably just get chucked into the, uh, trash can.
So, I mean, there are printouts, but I don't think there are books.
Right.
Okay, well, I think you gave it enough.
Okay.
Thanks very much for calling.
Oh, yeah.
It's been very interesting.
And, uh, I hope you do get enough pledges for this show.
By the way, what's your amount, by the way?
Did you, did you?
It's embarrassingly low.
And I don't think I even want to say it on the air,
but please, people, please call up and make it higher.
Because, uh, if we don't do good here tonight,
did you get at least a hundred grand in the past couple of weeks?
Uh, you know, I don't know what the, what the total is for the last couple of weeks,
but I do know the total for this show, it's staring me in the face,
and it's, uh, it's making me feel miserable.
So, at least, uh, if we can get that number to go up a little bit more,
I won't feel so, uh, so bad when I slink out of here tonight.
Well, you know, I hope maybe somebody will call up,
even if they pledge five or ten dollars.
Every bit.
Five dollars here, ten dollars there, it adds up.
It, it sure does.
Yeah.
Thanks very much for calling.
Okay, I'll be this in.
All right.
We have, uh, lots of people out there, you know, in Queens, Brooklyn, the Bronx,
uh, Nassau, Suffolk, and one person has called in on the pledge line.
Thank you very much, whoever you may be.
And, uh, it sure would be nice if people entirely remain to the phone.
Okay, great.
Uh, there are other lines, you know, that, they're starting to fall asleep in there.
Um, give us a call, 212-279-3400, and, uh, show your support for WBAI.
Help keep us going, because that's what we want to do.
We want to be able to bring you, uh, information.
We want to be able to bring you interviews.
We're going to have the Steve Jackson interview coming up in, uh, just a couple of minutes.
And, uh, all kinds of other bits of information.
For instance, we were talking about ANAC numbers.
Uh, 958 is the one that works for most of the area.
If you're in Westchester, though, try 990, and that will probably give you your phone number.
And there are other ones that work in different places, different areas, uh, that give you that bit of information.
That's not made public.
You know, you have to learn that by, uh, either hearing it here or hearing it from other people as well.
Another thing, maybe this will be, uh, a bit of fun for us to try, uh, throughout the night.
Social security numbers.
You know, uh, the previous caller was talking about, uh, finding people.
Well, it's incredibly easy to find people now that we all have these little numerical names.
Okay?
And our social security numbers are our numerical names.
We can't get rid of them.
They follow us around from birth to death.
You know?
And there's something that, uh, kind of sad in that because, according to the law, those things are just for social security.
Yet they, uh, they're part of our every lives.
Of course, the next few people that call in, you want to give me the first three digits of your social security number.
No harm there.
You know, I can't find out who you are by, uh, those first three digits.
But I can tell you where you were born.
How's that?
The challenge accepted?
Tell me what the first three digits of your social security number are.
And, uh, you know, I'm not sure if this will actually work.
This might not work completely, but it probably will.
So, uh, give us a call, 212-279-3407 for on-air calls, 212-279-3400 to make a pledge.
Good morning.
Hi.
Uh, let me turn my radio off.
Okay.
Okay.
Um, first, uh, the argument that AT&T is not obligated to divulge the, uh, phone numbers of its competitors
is absurd, uh, if you consider that it's AT&T's business to provide, uh, phone numbers to the public.
That's, uh, a good point.
Yeah.
And, uh, so I, I see, I think there's no, uh, earthly reason to feel sorry for, uh, AT&T on that one
or to complain, uh, unfair competition.
Uh, uh, also, uh, I've worked, uh, at, uh, well, with people at 9X, and, uh, they freely
acknowledge that, uh, uh, AT&T is, uh, to all intents and purposes, a monopoly.
So, uh, I think you're, I think you're right.
Uh, as far as, uh, card systems, though, and, uh, breaking, uh, uh, well, uh, encouraging, uh,
duplication of cards, uh, it so happens, um, I, uh, work in, I've written a smart card
operating system, uh, uh, for point of sale, and, uh, that's a concern of mine, uh, that
there are hackers going around, uh, or who would potentially want to destroy the, uh, the contents
of the cards, or at least, uh, hack them.
And, uh, considering that one of the capabilities of these cards would be to provide, uh, third-party
check cashing, uh, circumventing banks, uh, that's, uh, that's a bit of a concern.
I've got to work on it.
Yeah, well, no, I should, I should point out, though, that, uh, the hackers of the world,
uh, the vast majority of the hackers are not interested in destroying anything.
They're simply interested in, in figuring out how to circumvent, uh, whatever system
is in place.
Now, if somebody were to, uh, use that knowledge to, uh, to do something nasty, of course, that
would be a criminal act, but I don't think, uh, that equates with hacking.
Uh-huh.
You know, I, I, I think hacking is sort of a, uh, a natural human tendency to want to figure
out a way, and I, you know, I see it in people that, uh, that know the fact that
nothing about computers, yet they, they, they kind of cheer when they hear about, uh, about
what a hacker is able to do, because the hacker is figuring out a way around, you know, the
big, uh, the big guys, you know, AT&T and whatever.
Uh-huh.
Well, it, it turns out, though, that it's, uh, surprise, it is surprisingly easy to, uh,
break into the credit networks and so on.
I'm just...
Right, and that's something that, that should be upsetting everybody, because it's information
about you that's, that's practically lying out there in the street.
Right, and I think that company should have some, uh, obligation to protect that data.
Okay, well, okay, well, and that, uh, if you pursue it that way, then, uh, for the record,
the credit networks are totally unprotected.
Right.
Uh, uh, after speaking against hackers to someone, now I'm turning you the other cheek, okay?
Uh, they're, they're virtually totally unprotected.
Uh, I, I know you gave out, uh, they're in ASCII.
The, part of the problem is that, uh, they're an association of banks, of thousands of banks,
and it's almost impossible to get them to agree on anything.
And, uh, so you have a situation where, uh, all this data is being transmitted over phone
lines in ASCII.
Uh, is it, uh, is it generally known?
I think it is that the interbank settlement networks are also unprotected.
Well, uh, I can't say for sure.
Okay.
I would, I would hasten to guess that, uh, the protection is not what it could be.
Okay.
Uh, okay.
Then I think you've heard what I've heard.
Uh, let's see.
You also mentioned, uh, a couple weeks back about, uh, the mod 10 checksum on, uh, credit
cards.
Yes.
In fact, I'd like to get into that a little bit later, too.
The, uh.
So it happens you left out a little detail.
What's that?
Well, you, you got, you got the algorithm more or less right.
As far as I recall, when I, when I programmed that algorithm, that's the one I use more or
less.
Right.
Or something equivalent to it.
But, uh, you left out, I think you mentioned that the first four digits, uh, refer to the issuer.
Or the, uh, credit institution.
Well, with Visa and MasterCard, yes.
Yeah.
But, uh, you left out a little gotcha, which is, uh, my phone's falling all over the place.
Uh, which is that the length of the, uh, card number is important.
Oh, yes.
If it's odd or if it's even.
Well, uh, yeah.
But the number of digits, because, uh, most point-of-sale terminals will check, uh, the
actual length.
That is not, not just odd or even.
That's, that's true.
Uh, but, uh, I believe the Sears card and, uh, either Visa or MasterCard, uh, have the
same first four digits, but, uh, the length of one of them is, uh, uh, is a little longer.
Well, 16 is the, uh, is the general length of, of Discover.
Right.
Visa and MasterCard.
There are some Visas and MasterCards that are, that are smaller than that.
I believe 13.
13.
That's correct.
So, uh, and American Express is, uh, is another strange number.
I think 15?
Yeah.
Chemical uses 17.
So.
And it's not on the same network.
It depends upon which, uh, if it's odd or even, depending on which number you, uh, you
add a certain amount of numbers to.
Right.
And then you divide the whole thing by 10, and if it's, if it's divisible, it's a valid
number.
That's basically it.
Uh, well, yeah, uh, actually it's, it's kind of small change trying to, uh, to rip off
the credit, uh, card companies with that, although I guess if you go below the floor
limit, you can, you know.
Well, there are companies that do not check the actual credit.
Uh, they don't check, uh, generally.
Uh, it all goes through, let's see, basically the system is, it goes through, uh, these things
called, uh, MIPS, uh, front-end processors, uh, that I think are series ones.
And, uh, uh, uh, I believe they check, uh, a certain floor limit, and if you're below
that, they won't, uh, send it out to, uh, generally most of the transactions go, I think,
up in Washington to a place called Deluxe Data.
Is that right?
I don't know that.
I think that's right.
Well, I might have gotten Deluxe Data wrong.
But, uh, as far as I can recall, that's true.
But there is a, there is a floor limit, so, uh, they don't even check below a certain
number.
So, I want to get to one or two more calls.
Let me just ask you one final thing.
Do you trust me at the first three digits of your, uh, social security number?
Yeah.
Okay, what are they?
One, two, three.
One, two, three?
Yeah.
You were born in New York, were you not?
Yes, I was.
Okay.
That's nothing to be ashamed of there.
Thanks for calling.
And, uh, also, I'm a subscriber to WBAI.
Okay, well, make sure all your friends and neighbors are, too, okay?
I don't talk to them.
Okay, well, it'd be a good way to, uh, to break ground with them, then.
Thanks very much for calling.
Sure, bye.
212-279-3407 for call-ins.
212-279-3400 for, uh, for pledges.
We do need to get those pledges coming in, because, uh, we have interviews coming up,
we've got features coming up, we've got education coming up, but, uh, it can't continue unless
we hear from you.
Simple as that.
212-279-3400.
If you've gotten something out of this program, if you've gotten something out of programs
in the past, if you've gotten something out of, uh, anything on WBAI within the last
couple of months, and I'm sure if you're listening now, you probably have.
Well, you almost definitely have, because there's so much here, you know, there's so
much, uh, in, in the way of diverse programming.
Here's something that, uh, that just came in.
Actually, put this in the machine here, and we're going to hear a program, or a promotion
for a program that's going to, uh, be coming up later on today.
And this will give you an idea of the kinds of things that we have every day, 365 days a
year here in WBAI.
Your call at 212-279-3400 makes programs like this possible.
Tune in tonight for a special Radio Free Aaron WBAI Marathon program.
From 8.30 to 11 o'clock, we'll be featuring British Parliamentarian Anthony Benn.
We'll be discussing a wide range of issues, from Ireland to the Gulf War, to solutions to
Britain's role in the ongoing occupation of Ireland's six Northeast counties.
Join Mick DeJuan and John McDonough for this and more tonight at 8.30 on your listener-sponsored
radio station, WBAI New York.
There you go.
Just one example of the, uh, many different kinds of programs we have here in WBAI, but
only, only available to you if you help us out and, uh, keep us going.
Because if, uh, we don't reach our goals, it's going to chip away at the radio station
that exists here.
212-279-3400.
Let's get two more calls to, uh, make a pledge of, uh, whatever it is you can afford.
For, uh, $65 you can get a, uh, a WBAI t-shirt or a WBAI baseball cap.
And every call, every pledge, we'll get a free copy of, uh, 2600 Magazine, the Hacker
Quarterly, where we talk about all kinds of, uh, neat and interesting things.
212-279-3400.
Let's take some more calls.
Good evening.
Hi, Emmanuel.
Good show, as usual.
Uh, everybody out there should pledge.
It's really important.
Uh, uh, I, actually, I have an article sitting here that was, was on my desk and says, send
to Emanuel Goldstein.
And, uh, lo and behold, there you are on the radio.
Uh, um, it's, it's kind of interesting.
The issue that you've sort of been discussing tonight is attempts on the part of the government
or governments, uh, to limit our access to information.
Uh, but they want, uh, a complete and total access, uh, to our information.
Uh, there was an article, I, I, are you familiar with it?
That was in the New York Times on, uh, 4-17-91 on page A-16 titled, The Move on Unscrambling
of Messages is Assailed.
Are you familiar with that?
No, I missed that one.
Uh, may I read the first paragraph or two?
Go ahead.
Okay, it reads, uh, it's by, uh, John Markoff.
Uh, a measure tucked inside a recently proposed Senate bill calls on telephone and computer
companies to give the government the means to unscramble private electronic messages
and telephone conversations that have been encrypted to ensure privacy.
The provision is defended as a way to prevent the concealment of illegal activity, but has,
it has alarmed business executives and civil libertarians.
And I'll skip down a little bit here.
The Senate proposal calls on phone companies and computer equipment manufacturers to permit
the government to obtain unscrambled voice and computer data transmissions when searches
are authorized by law.
The proposal is worded as a resolution in a counterterrorism bill introduced in January
by Senator Joseph R. Biden, Jr., Democrat of Delaware.
I'll skip over to the last paragraph.
Uh, but a number of civil liberties experts said that such a resolution, if such a resolution
became law, computer makers and communications companies would be forced to place special
trap doors in their products.
These are special software entrances that would permit law enforcement officials to read scrambled
text or voice messages.
Um, I, I, I just, you know, when I remember back when the initial, uh, discussion of wire
tapping was going on and there was a big fight over whether they should allow any wire tapping
at all on the part of the government.
This is about, I don't know, 17 years ago, 18 years ago.
And recently, uh, I read an article somewhere that there are now, what, 130, 140 federal agencies
that are routinely tapping telephones and listening to pin register stuff.
And, uh, so this resolution, which although it, it, uh, uses the phrase, uh, uh, authorize
searches, uh, uh, uh, that has not been the case with telephone data, and I'm sure it wouldn't
be the case with, uh, computer data.
And people should subscribe because this is the only place that you'll hear about stuff like
this.
That's right.
And, uh, it's something you'll see a lot more authorized searches in the future because
it's going to be so much easier to do an authorized search.
But, uh, I just find it odd that, that, that, that if the government is so concerned with
freedom and legality that, uh, uh, they don't want me to look at anything, but, uh, they want
to have a clean, clean and open, uh, highway into anything, uh, uh, I have.
And then, uh, uh, whether it's radio communications, telephone communications, uh, uh, it's interesting
that the, uh, I don't know if you've discussed it, that during the war, uh, uh, uh, uh, the
first, uh, purse, uh, the first warnings were issued, uh, concerning packet ham radio communications
to the, uh, coalition, as a matter of fact, uh, by the FCC and, uh, Virginia, uh, uh, when
they were, uh, uh, uh, uh, you know, it was routinely being used by a variety of different,
different sources, and they decided to clamp down on the commercial clauses and claim that
the coalition was commercial and couldn't use packet ham transmission.
Uh-huh.
Um, I think they issued seven or eight, uh, citations to the, uh, coalition.
Uh, pretty insidious, but, uh, keep up the good work.
Thank you, and do you trust me with the first three numbers?
395, I'm waiting.
395, uh, Wisconsin?
Very good, very good.
Okay.
Drink beer.
Okay.
Thanks for calling.
Okay, bye-bye.
Now, uh, yes, if you, uh, trust me with the first three numbers of your social security
number, I can probably tell you where you were born.
Uh, now, there's a note up there.
Rick Frost donated, now, okay, now, I, I don't know if that's a little dot there, but
either Rick Frost donated $500 or he donated $5.
I don't know which, uh, but I hope, uh, it's not a clerical error in either direction.
He's from Clifton, New Jersey.
Okay, I'm sure they're making a correction on it right now.
Um, I have a feeling it's not $500.
Okay, that is a dot.
They're $5, not $500.
But if you want to donate $500, boy, think of, you know, I won't have to say another
word all night long, probably, you know, if somebody was nice enough to do that.
And there's a lot of rich people out there.
There really are.
There are a lot of people that can, uh, you know, afford to donate a substantial amount
to this radio station.
But, you know, not, we're not saying this to, uh, you know, to mock them or anything
like that.
We know there's a lot of rich people out there that, that have values that, uh, are, are
worth something, that care about a radio station like WBAI.
Think of the amount of good that you can do by making a pledge that will carry such weight.
You know, now, $5 pledges are, are, are great and we, we're thankful for them and we want
to thank Rick for calling in, uh, but, um, we need lots of pledges.
We need lots of $5 pledges, lots of, uh, you know, $50 pledges and those big pledges add
up and those little pledges add up.
But we need to get those phone lines lit.
212-279-3400.
Think of the bits of information that you would not get from other radio stations, from
other sources, other media sources anywhere.
It's true.
You don't get them because, uh, commercial interests control just about every media outlet
in this town.
That's a sad fact, but, uh, it's a true fact.
212-279-3400.
Show your support for non-commercial radio, show your support for independent, free-thinking
radio, and show your support for public access radio because we, uh, we give our listeners
as much access as we can possibly give them.
212-279-3400.
We have the Steve Jackson interview coming up in, uh, in just a couple of minutes.
Let's take one more phone call and then we'll move over towards that direction.
Good evening.
Yeah, how you doing?
Okay, how are you?
Okay, uh, you mentioned before the, um, caller ID.
Now, we don't have that in New York at this time, right?
Not yet, although I'm sure it's going to come at some point, probably, uh, sometime in the
next year.
Right, now, I'm seeing commercials that's only in Jersey so far.
Right, you're seeing those Bell Atlantic commercials.
Right.
Now, there's no other way of doing that now, of finding out who's calling your number.
Uh, not in New York.
Uh, unless, uh, unless you get some kind of a trace put on your line or unless you're able
to, uh, convince them to call an 800 number, you can get their number that way.
You mentioned that.
What is that all about?
Well, I don't understand that.
When you said you pay $20 more a month and you have an 800, what is that?
There's, uh, there's one company in particular, Cable and Wireless, um, that, uh, offers a
service where you pay $20 a month and you can have a programmable 800 number.
There's, MCI has, uh, an 800 number, too.
Sprint has 800 numbers that you can get for fairly low prices.
And when you, um, after you pay your monthly fee, you pay for every call that comes in,
obviously.
What you do is you get kind of a reverse phone bill.
You get the numbers of the people that call you.
Since you're paying for the calls, you have the right to know who is calling you.
But now, in other words, the people would have to be dialing it as an 800 also, right?
That's right.
Yeah, you'd have to give them that number and have them call that number.
Then you can, you can find out who is calling you.
Well, that would come under business.
They would, they would give you that for private use also.
That can be for private use.
Yes, MCI has a service known as Personal 800 and the other companies also offer, uh, similar
services.
I'm not certain about AT&T.
I don't know if they offer something, but, uh, it's, it's worth asking.
It's certainly a valuable thing to have.
But the main reason for the, uh, ID would be to catch somebody that you really,
uh, doesn't want to be known.
In other words, you want to know who they are.
Well, I'll tell you, it's kind of a murky thing because, uh, you know, anybody with
any sense whatsoever will know that if they call from their home, they're likely to be,
uh, to be caught if they're harassing somebody.
Uh, caller ID is not the answer that everybody is saying it is because it's very easy to get
around and it always will be.
People can call from, uh, from pay phones.
They can route their calls in various ways.
They can circumvent the system.
So it's not, uh, it's not 100%.
It's something, but I think it's more something for the phone companies than it is for us.
Yeah.
How much do you think that would be a month, uh, when that comes into here?
Caller ID, uh, I think it's something between $5 and $10 a month.
Would you get it?
I, I might get it just to experiment with it, just to see, you know, how I can make certain
numbers show up and how I can, uh, defeat the system.
So I would get it to play around with, but I would never depend upon it.
Right.
And I've seen in the booklet here, it said that it would only work if the person is calling
you also from an area where it is hooked up.
Yeah.
In fact, uh, something about caller ID, it's, it's pretty much, uh, restricted to your local
area.
I, I think that's the case in New Jersey.
Perhaps somebody from New Jersey can call in and let us know this, but I'm pretty sure
it's, uh, it's restricted to your central office.
In other words, person, a person in Southern New Jersey calling Northern New Jersey is not going
to show up as a caller ID.
Oh, wow.
In the future, in the future, that certainly will be the case.
We'll probably have nationwide caller ID.
Right, right.
So it is moving towards that.
Okay, great.
Thank you.
Thanks for calling.
Bye-bye.
Our number is 212-279-3400.
That's the number to call to make a pledge.
And I cannot, I cannot overemphasize the importance of making that pledge now.
Uh, there's, uh, people driving, there's people trying to fall asleep that can't and are getting
disturbed by all the, uh, troubling things they're hearing, and also people that are fascinated
by all of this.
But, uh, in order for us to be here next year and to be here the year after that and to continue
to bring you programs like this, we need to hear from you.
So, we really do.
And if you can support us by using Visa and MasterCard, that's fine.
It might make things a little bit easier for you.
If you can support us by, uh, by pledging whatever amount you feel is right, then please
do that.
212-279-3400.
Make that call and get other people to make that call too.
We know it's late.
We know it's, uh, the overnight period.
But, uh, that's no reason not to make a call.
It's no reason not to support your favorite radio station.
We hope to see two more calls before we, uh, go into Steve Jackson.
Uh, we have some information about Steve Jackson.
First, we're going to do a little musical break.
And, uh, do give us a call.
212-279-3400.
I thought he was, like trouble, but he never hurt nobody.
He just loved to live that way.
And he loved to steal your money.
Some is rich, some is poor.
That's the way the world is.
But I don't believe in lying back.
Say, now, bad, you're lucky.
So we came to drive it up.
Never loved a shovel.
Break your back to an outfit.
Don't forget to travel.
Daddy was a bank father.
Remember the first one's party.
He just loved to live that way.
And he loved to take down.
My love, my love.
My love, my life was running me.
So I love you.
But I knew that I have a lot of lives.
He could go to free, someone who Budget to come,
But I know I took that ticket.
I was scared of food to live that way.
Maybe.
Because I have a lot of education that took me right now.
puedo go to antip pole and watch a book.
No, yeah.
When I thought I would Luke, darling,
Can't you be crazy, girl,
Okay, can't you.
If Iть, I keep this woo Epic product.
P atten кв there's no one's verlink 열� obliterания.
I'd say, I feel artists in my hair.
I'm inburg programmer to see you thinking that you've attached to
a plan like I'm going to write.
My mind broke off in a bar
Said I'd never been a loser
A life that's earned in one last year
Was ten times worse than prison
Imagine if all the boys in jail
Could get out now together
What do you think they wanna say to us
While we were here together
Someday you'll meet your rockin' chair
Cause that's where we're spinning
There's no fun to walk on your head
When it's grey and steaming
There might be a document
Compromising the security of the 911 telephone system
In the months that followed
Jackson saw the business he had built up over many years
Dragged to the edge of bankruptcy
Steve Jackson Games was a successful and prestigious publisher
Of books and other materials used in adventure role-playing games
Jackson also operated a computer bulletin board system
Known as a BBS
To communicate with his customers and writers
And obtain feedback and suggestions on new gaming ideas
The bulletin board was also the repository of private electronic mail
Belonging to several of its users
This private mail was seized in the raid
Despite repeated requests for the return of his manuscripts and equipment
The Secret Service has refused to comply fully
And today
That date being
May 1st, 1991
Today
More than a year after that raid
The Electronic Frontier Foundation
Acting with Steve Jackson Games' owner
Steve Jackson
Has filed a precedent-setting civil suit
Against the United States Secret Service
Secret Service agents
Timothy Foley and Barbara Golden
Assistant United States Attorney
William Cook
And Henry Klupfel
This is the most important case brought to date
Said EFF General Counsel Mike Godwin
To vindicate the constitutional rights
Of the users of computer-based communications technology
It will establish the constitutional dimension
Of electronic expression
It also will be
One of the first cases that invokes
The Electronic Communications and Privacy Act
As a shield
And not as a sword
An act that guarantees users of this digital medium
The same privacy protections
Enjoyed by those who use the telephone
And the U.S. mail
Commenting on the overall role
Of the Electronic Frontier Foundation
In this case and other matters
EFF's President Mitch Kapoor said
We have been acting as an organization
Interested in defending the wrongly accused
But the Electronic Frontier Foundation
Is also going to be active
In establishing broader principles
We begin with this case
Where the issues are clear
But behind this specific action
The EFF also believes
That it is vital
That government
Private entities
And individuals
Who have violated
The constitutional rights
Of individuals
Be held accountable
For their actions
We also hope this case
Will help demystify
The world of computer users
To the general public
And inform them
About the potential
Of computer communities
With this case
The Electronic Frontier Foundation
Begins a new phase
Of affirmative legal action
In their press release
They say
We intend to fight
For broad constitutional protection
For operators
And users
Of computer bulletin boards
It is essential
To establish
The principle
That computer bulletin boards
And computer conferencing systems
Are entitled
To the same
First Amendment rights
Enjoyed by other media
It is also critical
To establish
That operators
Of bulletin boards
Whether
Individuals
Or businesses
Are not subject
To unconstitutional
Overbroad searches
And seizures
Of any of the contents
Of their systems
Including electronic mail
And the Electronic Frontier Foundation
Also believes
That it is vital
To hold government
Private entities
And individuals
Who have violated
The constitutional rights
Of others
Accountable
For their actions
This lawsuit
Seeks to vindicate
The rights
Of a small
Successful
Entrepreneur
Publisher
To conduct
This entirely
Lawful business
Free of unjustified
Governmental interference
It is also the goal
Of this litigation
To firmly establish
The principle
That lawful activities
Carried out
With the aid
Of computer technology
Including computer
Communications
And publishing
Are entitled
To the same
Constitutional protections
That have long
Been accorded
To the print medium
Computers and modems
No less than
Printing presses
Typewriters
The mail
And telephones
Being the methods
Selected by Americans
To communicate
With one another
Are all protected
By our constitutional rights
Steve Jackson
Of Austin, Texas
Is a successful
Small businessman
His company
Steve Jackson
Games
Is an award
Winning publisher
Of adventure games
And related books
And magazines
In addition to
Its books
And magazines
Steve Jackson
Games
Operates an
Electronic bulletin
Board system
Known as the
Illuminati BBS
It's operated
For its customers
And for others
Interested in
Adventure games
And related
Literary genres
Also
Named as
Plaintiffs
Are various users
Of the Illuminati BBS
The professional
Interests of these
Users range
From writing
To computer
Technology
Although
Neither Jackson
Nor his company
Were suspected
Of any criminal
Activity
The company
Was rendered
A near fatal
Blow
On March 1st
1990
When agents
Of the United
States Secret
Service
Aided by other
Law enforcement
Officials
Raided its office
Seizing computer
Equipment
Necessary to the
Operation of its
Publishing business
The government
Seized the
Illuminati BBS
And all the
Communications
Stored on it
Including private
Electronic mail
Shutting down
The BBS
For over a month
The Secret Service
Also
Seized publications
Protected by the
First Amendment
Including drafts of the
About to be released
Role-playing game
A book known as
GURPS Cyberpunk
The publication of the
Book was substantially
Delayed while
Steve Jackson
Games employees
Rewrote it
From older drafts
This fantasy game
Book which
One agent
Preposterously
Called
A handbook
For computer crime
Has since sold
Over 16,000 copies
And been nominated
For a prestigious
Game industry award
No evidence of
Criminal activity
Was ever found
The warrant
Application
Which remains
Sealed at the
Government's
Request for seven
Months
Reveals that the
Agents were
Investigating an
Employee of the
Company
Whom they believe
To be engaged
In activity
They found
Questionable
At his home
And on his
Own time
The warrant
Application
Further reveals
Not only that
The Secret Service
Had no reason
To think any
Evidence of
Criminal activity
Would be found
At Steve Jackson
Games
But also
That the
Government omitted
Telling the
Magistrate who
Issued the
Warrant
That Steve
Jackson
Games was a
Publisher
And that the
Contemplated
Raid
Would cause
A prior
Restraint
On constitutionally
Protected
Speech
Publication
And association
The defendants
In this case
Are the
United States
Secret Service
And the
Individuals who
By planning
And carrying
Out this
Grossly illegal
Search and
Seizure
Abuse the
Power conferred
Upon them
By the
Federal
Government
Those
Individuals
Include
Assistant
United States
Attorney
William J.
Cook
Secret
Service
Agents
Timothy
Foley
And Barbara
Golden
As well
As Henry
Klupfel
Of Belcor
Who actively
Participated
In the
Unlawful
Activities
As an
Agent
Of the
Federal
Government
These
Defendants
Are the
Same
Individuals
And entities
Responsible
For the
Prosecution
Last
Year
Of
Electronic
Publisher
Craig
Neidorf
The
Government
In that
Case
Charged
That
Neidorf's
Publication
Of
Materials
Concerning
The
Enhanced
911
System
Constituted
Interstate
Transportation
Of Stolen
Property
The
Prosecution
Was
Resolved
In
Neidorf's
Favor
In
July
Of
1990
When
Neidorf
Demonstrated
That
Materials
He
Published
Were
Generally
Available
To
The
Public
This
Case
Is
About
The
Constitutional
And
Statutory
Rights
Of
Publishers
Who
Conduct
Their
Activities
In
Electronic
Media
Rather
Than
In
Traditional
Print
And
Hard
Copy
Media
As
Well
As
The
Rights
Of
Individuals
And
Companies
That
Use
Computer
Technology
To
Communicate
As
Well
As
To
Conduct
Personal
And
Business
Affairs
Generally
The
Government's
Wholly
Unjustified
Raid
On
Steve
Jackson
Games
And
Seizure
Of
Its
Books
Magazines
And
Bulletin
Board
System
Violated
Clearly
Established
Statutory
And
Constitutional
Law
Including
The
Privacy
Protection
Act
Of
1980
Which
Generally
Prohibits
The
Government
From
Searching
The
Offices
Of
Publishers
For
Work
Product
And
Other
Documents
Including
Materials
That
Are
Electronically
Stored
The
First
Amendment
To
The
U.S.
Constitution
Which
Guarantees
Freedom
Of
Speech
Of
The
Press
And
Of
Association
And
Which
Prohibits
The
Government
From
Censoring
Publications
Whether
In
Printed
Or
Electronic
Media
The
Fourth
Amendment
Which
Prohibits
Unreasonable
Governmental
Searches
And
Seizures
Including
Both
General
Searches
And
Searches
Prohibible
Cause
To
Believe
That
Specific
Evidence
Of
Criminal
Activity
Will
Be
Found
At
Locations
Searched
And
The
Electronic
Communications
Privacy
Act
And
The
Federal
Wiretab
Statute
Which
Together
Prohibit
The
Government
From
Seizing
Electronic
Communications
Without
Justification
And
Proper
Authorization
All
That
Coming
From
The
May
1st
1991
Edition
Of
The
Electronic
Frontier
Foundation
Publication
Effector
Lawsuit
Has
Been
Started
Legal
Action
Has
Finally
Been
Taken
Against
The
Secret
Service
For
Its
Actions
In
This
Particular
Case
Actions
Against
Steve
Jackson
Games
But
Over
The
Past
Few
Years
Since
1984
Actions
Against
Hackers
Publishers
Teenage
Kids
And
Things
That
Have
Resulted
In
A
Very
Scary
Scenario
In
Just a
Moment
We'll
Hear
From
Steve
Jackson
Himself
If
You
Believe
In
Free
Speech
On
The
Air
On
The
FM
Dial
New
York
Please
Show
Your
Support
Now
For
WBAI
At
212
279
3400
We're
Speaking
With
Steve
Jackson
Who is
The
Founder
Owner
And
President
Of
Steve
Jackson
Games
In
Austin
Texas
Steve
Good
Evening
Good
Evening
You
Had
Quite
A
Bit
Of
Of
A
Hassle
Over
The
Past
Year
With
The
Secret
Service
And
A
Whole
Big
Case
That
Concerned
Computer
Hackers
And
All
Kinds
Of
Alleged
Conspiracies
Now
First
Of
All
Could
You
Tell
Us
What
Exactly
Is
Steve
Jackson
Games
We
Publish
Role
Playing
Games
And
Board
Games
And
Magazines
About
Games
We
Do
Not
Publish
Computer
Games
That's
That's
One
Of
The
Errors
That
Keeps
Getting
Into
The
Press
Reports
Everything
Everything
That
We
Produce
Is
Printed
On
Paper
Okay
Now
We'll
Get
Back
To
That
I
Guess
In
A
Few
Minutes
But
Why
Don't
You
Start
By
Telling
Us
What
Exactly
Happened
To
You
Last
Year
With
As
Many
Specific
Dates
As
Possible
I
Believe
It
Was
Just
About
A
Little
Over
A
Year
A
Go
That
Things
Started
Happening
Yes
Actually
14
Or
15
Months
Now
This
Happened
On
March
1st
What
Happened
Was
That
Early
In
The
Morning
My
Offices
Were
Invaded
By
Agents
Of
The
United
States
Secret
Service
They
Had
Sort
Of
A
Search
Warrant
The
Copy
That
They
Left
Us
Didn't
Have
A
Judge
Signature
And
Most
Of
The
Blanks
On
It
Weren't
Filled
In
But
Nobody
Here
Wanted
To
Argue
With
Them
They
Spent
Several
Hours
Going
Through
The
Building
They
Forced
Open
File
Cabinets
And
Lockers
They
Used
Bolt
Cutters
To
Take
The
Locks
Off
Our
Storage
Units
While
The
Employee
With
The
Keys
Stood
There
Offering
To
Open
Them
For
Them
And
So
On
And
So
On
And
So
On
They
Pretty
Well
Tore
Things
Up
Around
Here
When
They
Left
They
Took
Three
Of
Our
Computers
They
Took
A
Laser
Printer
They
Took
A
Lot
Of
Assorted
Hardware
And
Lots
And
Lots
And
Lots
Of
Discs
And
Papers
And
Business
Data
And
In
Particular
They
Took
Every
Current
Copy
On
Either
Paper
Or
Disc
Of
The
New
Book
That
We
Were
About
To
Send
To
The
Printer
At
The
Same
Time
They
Were
Doing
This
They
Were
Raiding
The
Home
Of
My
Managing
Editor
Who
Wrote
That
Book
They
Took
His
Computer
His
Laser
Printer
And
Every
Copy
Of
The
Manuscript
That
He
Had
Now
Throughout
All
Of
This
Were
You
Given
An
Explanation
As
To
Just
What
Exactly
Was
Going
On
The
Only
Explanation
That
They
Would
Give
Was
To
Point
To
The
Warrant
Which
Had
Some
Vague
Language
In
It
About
Investigation
Of
Computer
Crime
Other
Than
That
They
Wouldn't
Comment
When
People
Called
Our
Office
On
The
Phone
During
The
Time
They
Were
There
The
Agents
Who
Were
Answering
The
Phone
Were
Not
Informative
At
All
They
Would
Do
Things
Like
Pick
Up
The
Phone
And
Say
Call
Back
Later
And
Hang
Up
Again
How
Long
Did
This
Whole
Process
Take
They
Were
In
There
For
Several
Hours
Now
Can
You
Describe
For
Us
The
Aftermath
Of
That
One
Day
Well
Yeah
We're
Still
Going
Through
The
Aftermath
But
Taking
A
Step
At
A
Time
As
Soon
As
I
Had
Some
Idea
Of
What
Was
Really
Happening
I
Called
A
Lawyer
Here
In
Town
Who
Does
Our
Trademark
Work
And
I
Told
Them
You're
Not
Going
To
Believe
This
But
The
Secret
Service
Is
Raiding
My
Office
Can
You
Put
Me
In
Touch
With
Somebody
Who
Knows
About
Things
Like
This
And
They
Got
Me
In
Touch
With
An
Attorney
In
Dallas
Who
Specialized
In
Federal
Criminal
Procedure
And
He
Called
The
Secret
Service
And
Talk
To
Them
And
Notified
Them
That
Among
The
Things
That
They
Had
Scooped
Up
Was
Data
That
We
Had
To
Have
In
Order
To
Stay
In
Business
And
The
Attorney
Asked
If
We
Could
Get
Copies
Of
Our
Material
And
The
Secret
Service
Told
Them
Yes
So
The
Next
Morning
I
I'm
Down
At
The
Austin
Office
Of
The
Secret
Service
With
A
Big
Box
Of
Blank
Disks
And
With
An
Attorney
Accompanying
Me
And
It
Was
A
Very
Interesting
Experience
I
Did
Not
Get
Very
Many
Files
Back
They
Let
Me
Have
Two
Disks
Worth
Of
Files
I
Was
Not
Allowed
To
Make
Any
Copies
Myself
Of
The
Machines
That
They
Had
Down
There
Of
Ours
I
Was
Only
Allowed
To
Have
Copies
From
One
Of
The
Machines
The
Others
They
Just
Refused
To
Consider
Making
Any
Copies
From
Did
They
Say
Why
This
Might
Be
Evidence
Which
Doesn't
Make
Any
Sense
But
Anything
Different
About
Those
Particular
Files
Well
They
Were
All
Different
Machines
Used
For
Different
Purposes
One
Of
The
Machines
That
They
Took
One
Of
The
Computers
Was
Our
Bulletin
Board
System
Our
Electronic
BBS
And
They
Refused
To
Let
Me
Have
Any
Copies
Of
Anything
Off
That
And
What
Kind
Of
Things
Were
Going
On
On
The
Bulletin
Board
This
Bulletin
Board
Was
Used
To
Discuss
Our
Games
Both
The
Ones
That
Were
Already
Out
And
Games
That
Were
In
Progress
In
Particular
One
File
On
There
That
I
Really
Needed
Was
A
File
Of
Play
Tester
Comments
On
The
GURP
Cyberpunk
Game
Which
Is
The
One
That
They
Confiscated
All
The
Copies
Of
It
Would
Have
Been
A
Lot
Easier
To
Reconstruct
The
Book
Which
Is
What
We
Eventually
Had
To
Do
Reconstruct
It
If
We
Copies
That
I
Was
Allowed
To
Have
After
That
Session
Were
Copies
That
Were
Made
By
A
Secret
Service
Agent
Who
Did
Not
Know
How
To
Use
Computers
He
Sat
There
At
The
Keyboard
And
He
Would
Ask
Me
What
Commands
To
Type
In
In
Order
To
Look
At
Things
And
Get
The
Copies
Made
I
Would
Tell
Him
The
Command
Then
He
Would
Holler
Across
The
Room
To
Another
Agent
What
Kind
Of
Commands
Are
We
Talking
About
Here
Oh
We're
Talking
About
Saying
Type
DIR
To
Get
A
Directory
And
He
Would
Shout
Across
The
Room
DIR
To
Make
Sure
That
That
Was
A
Proper
Command
Right
And
The
Other
Guy
Would
Say
Yeah
Sure
And
Then
This
Guy
Would
Type
DIR
And
Then
Nothing
Would
Happen
Because
He
Hadn't
Entered
Return
So
I
Would
Say
Now
Hit
Return
He
The
Other
Agent
Would
Say
Yeah
Yeah
Hit
Return
And
Then
Hit
Return
And
Then
The
Directory
Would
Come
Up
And
It
Was
Like
This
I
Mean
Just
Every
Every
File
That
I
Wanted
Had
To
Be
Made
With
This
Kind
Of
Process
So
How
Long
Were
You
Down
There
For
About
An
Hour
And
A
Half
That
Was
All
The
Time
They
Let
Me
Have
They
Said
That
After
That
It
Had
To
Be
Flown
So
The
It
Had
To
Be
Flown
To
Chicago
Where
The
Experts
Could
Look
At
It
Who
Apparently
Knew
How
To
Type
DIR
And
Hit
Return
Can
You
Describe
From
The
Beginning
Was
What
Was
The
Level
Of
Competence
Of
The
Agents
The
Agents
Who
Raided
You
You
You
You
You
You
You
Describe
The
Agents
That
Were
Processing
The
Data
Was
It
Pretty
Consistent
Like
This
Well
I'm
Not
An
Expert
On
Raids
These
I
Have
Been
Told
By
Other
People
That
Based
On
The
Description
Of
The
Way
They
Went
Through
The
Building
This
Is
What
You
Would
Expect
From
A
Drug
Bust
How
So
But
I've
Never
Been
Through
A
Drug
Bust
Either
Can
You
Describe
Well
Just
In
Terms
Of
Hostility
To
The
People
Who
They
Wouldn't
Let
In
The
Building
In
Terms
Of
Tearing
Up
The
Premises
In
Terms
Of
Just
Carting
Away
Loads
And
Loads
Of
Stuff
That
They
Didn't
Need
Did
They
Take
Your
Telephone
No
They
Didn't
Take
The
Telephone
I
Understand
That
Other
People
Who
Were
Raided
In
The
Same
Series
Had
Telephones
And
Tape
Recorders
Taken
They
Did
Take
Our
Laser
Printer
I
See
There
Was
One
Theory
That
They
Thought
They
Could
Read
The
Ribbon
On
It
Now
When
When
You
Were
Asking
Them
Well
What's
Going
On
Here
Did
They
Come
Up
With
Any
Particular
Ridiculous
Scenario
I
Know
In
Some
Particular
Cases
They
Would
Accuse
The
People
Of
Having
Caused
The
AT&T
Network
To
Crash
And
Moving
Satellites
Around
The
Sky
Did
They
Have
Any
Kind
Of
Scenario
Like
That
For
You
Not
That
They
Would
Give
Us
At
The
Time
There
Was
Some
Really
Ridiculous
Stuff
In
The
Warrant
In
The
Application
That
They
Filed
With
The
Judge
In
Order
To
Get
Their
Search
Warrant
On
Us
But
All
That
Was
Sealed
Nobody
Saw
That
For
Many
months
Afterwards
But
You
Did
See
That
What
Was
In
It
When
You
Did
Talking
About
The
911
File
As
Though
It
Were
A
Program
Which
It
Is
Not
And
As
Though
It
Were
Worth
A
Great
Deal
Of
Money
Which
It
Not
And
Just
In
General
Trying
To
To
Make
A
Huge
Frightening
Hacker
Conspiracy
Out
Of
Nothing
Now
You
Have
You
Had
Experiences
With
Computer
Hackers
Before
And
If
So
How
Do
You
Compare
Them
To
What
The
Agents
Were
Alleging
Well
What
The
Agents
Actually
Did
Was
Like
But
Worse
What
The
Agents
Say
Hackers
Do
The
The
Scare
Stories
That
They
Tell
Are
That
If
Hackers
Get
Into
Your
System
They
Might
Damage
Your
Hardware
And
Destroy
Files
And
Keep
You
From
Being
Able
To
Use
Your
System
For
A
Long
Time
That
That
That's
What
They
Say
About
Hackers
But
What
The
Secret
Service
Agents
Did
To
Me
Was
Damage
My
Hardware
Destroy
My
Files
And
Keep
Me
From
Using
The
Systems
For
A
Long
Time
So
I
Think
I
Got
Hacked
But
I
Got
Hacked
By
The
Secret
Service
It
It's
It's
Rather
A
Rude
Awakening
Now
Now
You're
Suing
The
Secret
Service
So
Can
You
Describe
To
Us
What
Exactly
Is
Involved
In
That
What
Are
You
Trying
To
Get
Back
From
Them
And
What
Is
It
That
They
Have
Taken
From
You
Well
They
Have
Never
Returned
Either
All
Of
The
Files
Or
All
Of
The
Hardware
That
They
Took
They
Claim
That
They
Have
That
That's
Not
True
Some
Of
The
Equipment
That
They
Returned
To
Us
When
They
Finally
Got
Around
To
Giving
Us
Anything
Back
Was
Badly
Damaged
Of
The
Three
Computers
That
They
Took
One
Was
Just
Destroyed
I
Mean
It's
Not
Usable
Another
One
Was
Damaged
Please
Tell Them
I'll
Call
Them
Back
Sorry
Let's
See
The
Complaint
Itself
Is
Filed
Under
Several
Different
Laws
And
Essentially
Well
I've
Got
A
Copy
Of
The
Complaint
In
Front
Of
Me
But
I'm
Trying
To
Get
Through
Enough
Of
The
Legal
Ease
Well
Okay
Just
From
Memory
It's
Filed
Under
The
First
Amendment
Because
They
Closed
Down
A
Bulletin
Board
System
Which
Interfered
With
Freedom
Of
Speech
Here
It
Interfered
Both
With
My
Freedom
Of
Speech
And
With
The
Freedom
Of
Speech
Of
The
Users
Of
The
BBS
And
Some
Of
The
Users
Of
The
Board
Are
Joining
us
In
This
Complaint
Did
Their
Action
Violate
The
ECPA
Yes
It
Also
Violated
The
ECPA
And
We
Are
Also
Suing
Them
Under
The
ECPA
That
That's
The
Electronic
Communications
Privacy
Act
And
That
Essentially
Says
Thou
Shalt
Not
Mess
With
Electronic
Communications
Thou
Thou
Thou
Thou
Thou
Shalt
Not
Steal
Email
And
When
They
Took
Away
The
BBS
They
Deprived
A
Lot
Of
The
Users
Of
Their
Unread
Electronic
Mail
And
If
Nothing
Else
If
They
Do
Seize
Electronic
Mail
They're
Required
To
Notify
The
People
Are
They
Not
That's
Right
And
They
Never
Did
That's
Right
They
Didn't
Follow
Any
Of
The
Procedures
That
They
Should
Have
Followed
Which
Is
Unreasonable
Search
And
Seizure
Because
The
The
Grounds
Under
Which
They
Raided
Us
Were
Grossly
Improper
They
Didn't
Have
Anything
Like
Probable
Cause
To
Come
Into
This
Office
And
Search
For
Evidence
And
The
Warrant
Was
Incredibly
Overbroad
The
Way
The
Warrant
Was
Written
It
Essentially
Said
You
Can
Go
Into
This
Office
And
Take
Any
Computer
Or
Anything
That
Has
Anything
To
Do
With
Computers
Or
Any
Business
Record
That
Has
Anything
To
Do
With
The
Purchase
Of
Computers
And
There
Were
A
Few
Other
Things
In
There
But
That's
The
High
Point
Now
Has
There
Been
A
Lawsuit
Like
This
In
The
Past
Against
A
Governmental
Agency
For
Such
A
Thing
No
This
One
Is
Going
To
Be
Precedent
Setting
It
It
Really
Is
As far
As I
Know
The
First
Of
Its
Kind
There
Have
Been
Cases
Before
Where
A
Bulletin
Board
Operator
Was
Harassed
Unreasonably
But
None
Of
Them
Have
Been
Federal
Cases
Now
Now
Your
Your
Book
GURP
Cyberpunk
As
You
Mentioned
Before
Was
Affected
Greatly
By
This
They
Seized
The
Copies
And
You
Had
To
Reconstruct
It
Now
That
Was
Eventually
Put
Out
Would
You
Say
That
That
The
Book

Out
And
That
Six
Week
Had
A
Domino
Effect
On
Our
Schedule
And
Our
Budget
That
Really
Hurt
Us
But
The
Book's
Out
And
It's
A
Good
One
It
Has
Been
Nominated
For
The
Best
Role-playing
Supplement
Of
The
Year
We'll
Know
July
4th
Weekend
Is
When
Those
Awards
Are
Announced
So
Then
We'll
Know
If
It
Won
But
It's
A
Good
Book
I'm
Pleased
With
It
Now
When
This
First
Began
Happening
The
First
Press
I
Guess
You
Would
Say
The
First
Mention
The
First
Words
Of
Outrage
Came
From
The
Hacker
Community
The
BBS
Community
It
Was
Passed
Around
On
The
Internet
And
The
Same
The
Same
Words
Of
Horror
Were
Expressed
Towards
The
Other
Cases
You
Mentioned
The
Craig
Neidorf
Case
And
A
Couple
Of
Other
Cases
That
Were
Happening
At
The
Same
Time
Now
This
Eventually
Got
Into
Printed
Media
It
Led
To
The
Formation
Of
The
Electronic
Frontier
Foundation
Is
Is
That
A
Correct
Interpretation
In
Your
View
Yes
I
Don't
Think
That
My
Case
Was
The
Only
One
That
Inspired
There
Are
A
Lot
Of
Abuses
Out
There
And
They
Are
Addressing
A
Lot
Of
Different
Abuses
But
This
Was
Certainly
One
Of
Them
The
EFF
Certainly
Came
Into
Being
At
The
Right
Time
To
Help
Me
I'm
Sure
That
I
Would
Not
Have
Gotten
My
Hardware
Back
If
The
EFF
Had
Not
Appeared
Because
It
Was
Very
Funny
Really
After
Months
Of
Stonewalling
And
Promising
Falsely
That
We
Suddenly
Popped
Up
And
Returned
It
Just
A
Few
Days
After
It
Leaked
To
The
Press
That
The
EFF
Was
Going
To
Be
Taking
An
Interest
In
My
Case
Now
Before
This
Had
Happened
To
You
Had
You
Been
Aware
Of
The
Series
Of
Secret
Service
Raids
That
Have
Been
Taking
Place
Over
The
Last
Few
Years
And
Prior
To
That
FBI
Raids
On
Suspected
Computer
Hackers
Or
Bulletin
Boards
Operator
For
A
Long
Time
Of
A
BBS
So
I
Had
An
Interest
In
CISOP
Rights
And
CISOP
Responsibilities
But
I
Certainly
Never
Thought
It
Was
Going
To
Come
That
Close
To
Home
So
Has
Your
View
On
The
Entire
World
Of
Cyberspace
Change
Now
Yes
Very
Much
So
I
I'm
Now
Very
Painfully
Aware
That
That
Law
Enforcement
As
A
Whole
Has
Not
Kept
Up
With
Technology
That
There
Are
Some
Law
Enforcement
People
Out
There
Who
Are
Very
Very
Skilled
Very
Knowledgeable
And
Their
Voices
Crying
In
The
Wilderness
Looking
For
Improvement
That
There
Are
Other
Law
Enforcement
Agents
Out
There
Who
Don't
Understand
The
Technology
Don't
Want
To
Understand
It
They're
Afraid
Of
It
And
They're
Afraid
Of
Anyone
Who
Is
Master
Of
It
Now
Why
Do
You
See
That
As
The
Case
Is
It
Simply
Because
They
Don't
Understand
The
Technology
Yes
It's
Very
Easy
To
Fear
Something
That
You
Don't
Understand
Especially
When
It's
Something
As
Potentially
Powerful
As
This
So
If
You're
A
Law
Enforcement
Agent
And
You
Don't
Understand
Computer
Technology
Then
You're
Going
To
Believe
Everything
That
You
Hear
If
Someone
Tells
You
Hackers
Can
Listen
Into
Your
Phone
Conversations
They'll
Believe
It
If
They
Say
Hackers
Can
Move
Satellites
Around
You
Believe
It
Hackers
Are
Going
To
Close
Down
The
911
System
You
Believe
It
Hackers
Are
Going
To
Turn
The
Moon
Into
Spam
And
Then
They're
Going
To
Drop
It
On
New
York
And
You
Believe
It
Because
You
Don't
Know
What
These
Wicked
Hackers
Can
Do
But
You
Know
That
Computers
Are
Very
Powerful
And
You
Don't
Know
Anything
About
Them
So
You
Think
These
Guys
Are
Wizards
You
Believe
Any
Story
That
You
Hear
And
Then
These
Fellows
Go
Around
And
They
Meet
And
They
Swap
Terrible
Stories
And
They
Convince
Each
Other
Of
All
This
Nonsense
And
The
Real
Computer
Crackers
And
The
Wannabe
Computer
Crackers
Even
Worse
Just
Just
Feed
This
Because
They
Tell
Stories
About
The
Things
They
Can
Do
And
If
You're
A
14
Year
Old
Computer
Whiz
You
Might
Think
It's
Real
Funny
To
Get
On
A
Bulletin
Board
And
Say
Yes
I
Can
Turn
The
Moon
Into
Spam
And
Tomorrow
My
Buddies
And
I
Are
Going
To
Do
It
And
If
You
Know
That
There
Is
A
G
Man
On
The
Board
A
Secret
Service
Agent
Who
Believes
All
This
Stuff
You
Think
That's
Real
Funny
Because
It
Is
Real
Funny
You're
Pulling
This
Great
Con
On
On
The
Cops
Except
It
Isn't
So
Funny
When
They
Believe
It
And
They
Raid
Your
House
With
Their
Guns
Out
And
They
Say
We're
Going
To
Confiscate
Your
Computers
And
Your
Spam
Now
Short
Of
Short
Of
The
Kind
Of
First
Hand
Knowledge
That
You've
Had
With
The
Whole
Process
And
The
Lack
Of
Understanding
Of
Technology
On
The
On
The
Part
Of
Government
Agents
How
Can
The
Average
Person
Become
Educated
As
To
What's
Really
Going
On
That's
A
Hard
One
Well
Is
Reading
A
Newspaper
Is
That
Enough
Is
Listening
To
The
Radio
Enough
Or
Should
People
Be
Doing
More
Well
The
Best
Way
If
You're
Really
Interested
Is
To
Get
Online
Yourself
Get
A
Computer
Get
A
Modem
Tap
Into
Bulletin
Boards
If
You
Which
Is
Not
Illegal
By
The
Way
A
Lot
Of
People
Seem
To
Think
That
Every
Time
You
Tap
Into
Something
Electronically
You're
About
To
Commit
Some
Kind
Of
A
Crime
Oh
That's
That's
What
They're
For
Special
Interests
And
If
You
Don't
See
The
One
You
Want
You
Can
Start
It
Yourself
Bulletin
Boards
Are
The
Greatest
Thing
For
Freedom
Of
Speech
And
Communication
Since
The
Invention
Of
The
Photocopier
They
Make
Everyone
Not
Only
Into
Their
Own
Publisher
But
They
Let
Everyone
Set
Up
An
Open
Forum
Where
Other
People
Can
Discuss
It's
Really
Wonderful
Bulletin
Boards
Let
Everybody
Talk
To
Everybody
About
Everything
About
Anything
They
Want
To
There
Is
No
Way
That
Government
Or
Corporations
Or
Anybody
Else
I
Mean
Whatever
Your
Favorite
Evil
Conspiracy
Is
There
Is
No
Way
That
Your
Favorite
Evil
Conspiracy
Can
Manage
The
News
When
Everyone
Is
Tied
Into
The
Net
When
Everyone
Is
Talking
With
People
All
Over
The
World
On
Bulletin
Boards
Via
Modems
That's
That's
Where
You
Can
Find
Out
What's
Happening
We've
Been
Speaking
With
Steve
Jackson
Who
Is
The
President
Owner
Founder
Of
Steve
Jackson
Games
Steve
You
Mentioned
Earlier
That
You're
Not
A
Computer
Game
Publisher
Now
You've
Been
Called
That
In
The
Press
Many
Times
Is
There
A
Reason
Why
And
Also
Why
Do
You
Feel
It's
Important
To
Make
That
Distinction
It
Started
I
Think
Just
From
One
Error
The
Reporter
For
My
Local
Paper
Just
Got
It
Wrong
When
He
Wrote
The
First
Report
About
It
Apparently
He
Thought
We
Were
A
Computer
Game
Publisher
Because
The
Book
GURP
Cyberpunk
Had
Something
To
Do
With
Computers
And
It
Was
A
Natural
Error
But
Then
The
Associated
Press
Picked
It
Up
From
Him
And
USA
Today
Picks
It
Up
From
Associated
Press
And
The
Next
Thing
You
Know
It's
And
I
Think
That
It's
Important
Mostly
Just
Because
It's
Such
A
Great
Example
Of
How
Once
A
False
Fact
Gets
Into
The
Media
It's
So
Difficult
To
Get
It
Out
It
Doesn't
Really
Have
Any
Bearing
On
The
Case
At
All
What
The
Secret
Service
Did
Would
Have
Been
Just
As
Bad
No
More
And
Less
Bad
If
I
Had
Been
A
Computer
Game
Publisher
The
Interesting
Thing
Is
That
It
Could
Have
Happened
To
Any
It
Could
Have
Happened
To
Any
Company
It
Wasn't
Even
Necessary
That
I
Be
A
Publisher
For
Instance
Let's
Say
That
You
Run
An
Auto
Parts
Store
Well
You
Have
A
Computer
In
Your
Auto
Parts
Store
You
Can't
Keep
Track
Of
Your
Crime
And
If
If
This
Case
Goes
The
Wrong
Way
We
Might
Find
Out
That
The
Police
Have
A
Perfect
Right
To
Come
And
Confiscate
The
Computer
In
Your
Auto
Parts
Store
Just
To
See
If
By
Some
Chance
The
Man
Who
Was
Suspected
Of
Being
A
Bookie
Had
Left
Any
Incriminating
Information
On
It
And
That's
Just
The
Same
As
Getting
A
Warrant
To
Come
And
Take
Away
Every
File
Cabinet
In
Your
Office
Just
Because
The
Man
Might
Have
Put
A
Piece
Of
Paper
In
There
But
It
Doesn't
Necessarily
Look
That
Way
To
Law
Enforcement
People
Who
Are
Not
Used
To
Thinking
Of
A
Computer
As
Everything
That
It
Is
And
I
Got
Way
Off
The
Question
There
Because
The
Original
Question
Is
Why
Does
It
Make
A
Difference
That
I
Am
Not
A
Computer
Game
Thing
It
Doesn't
Make
A
Difference
To
The
Case
It
Makes
A
Difference
Because
I'm
Interested
In
The
Media
I'm
Interested
In
Getting
The
Facts
Right
And
It
Drives
Me
Crazy
When
I
See
A
Mistake
Repeated
Over
And
Over
Again
Well
At
Least
They're
Spelling
Your
Name
Right
I
Know
Craig
Neidorf
Is
Taking
Issue
With
That
Particular
Case
Yes
And
Then
They
Always
Pronounce
His
Name
Wrong
Of
Course
Steve
Now
How
Can
People
Get
Involved
In
This
If
They
Want
To
Help
Out
Well
Eventually
The
Electronic
Frontier
Foundation
Will
Be
Accepting
Memberships
And
Donations
They're
Not
Set
Up
To
Do
That
Yet
The
Electronic
Frontier
Foundation
Is
Essentially
If
You'll
Pardon
A
Quick
And
Dirty
Comparison
It's
A
High
Tech
ACLU
It's
Been
Set
Up
To
Fight
For
Civil
Liberties
In
The
High
Tech
Arena
And
It
Does
Have
The
Full
Cooperation
Of
The
ACLU
These
Are
Not
Competing
Groups
The
EFF
Is
Just
Taking
Computer
And
High
Tech
Related
Cases
And
Dealing
With
Them
So
I
Would
Say
Read
The
Papers
Watch
The
Net
And
When
You
Find
Out
That
The
EFF
Has
Its
Tax
Papers
Finished
Then
Join
There's
Also
A
Phone
Number
That
I
Will
Try
To
Locate
Here
While
I'm
Talking
Pardon
Me
See
If
I
Can
Do
Two
Things
At
Once
And
Find
This
On
My
Computer
Well
I'll
Tell
You
What
Since
We're
On
Tape
I'll
Have
Plenty
Of
Time
To
Actually
Find
That
And
I'll
Come
On
Live
Right
After
This
And
Tell
That
Phone
Number
Okay
Sounds
Sounds
Good
Then
Forget
I
Said
This
Okay
Now
You're
Going
To
Be
Appearing
I guess
On
Various
Places
Various
Conferences
And
Things
Like
That
Yes
I
Have
Okay
I'm
Going
To
Be
At
Fidocon
Which
And
I
Expect
I
Will
Be
Coming
To
Other
Computer
Related
Conferences
As
Time
And
Money
Allow
To
Talk
About
The
Case
And
To
Learn
More
About
Other
People's
Cases
Well
Let's
Hope
That
It
Remains
News
And
Let's
Hope
That
The
People
Listening
Are
Becoming
Educated
On
The
On
The
Issues
And
When
They
See
Something
On
This
They'll
Ask
Plenty
Of
Questions
I
Hope
So
It's
An
Important
Case
Computers
Are
Going
To
Be
More
Important
In
The
Next
20
Years
Than
Anybody
Can
Imagine
And
We
Absolutely
Have
To
Nail
Down
The
Fact
That
All
Of
Our
Constitutional
Rights
Still
Apply
That
The
Constitution
Doesn't
Go
Away
Just
Because
There's
A
Computer
In
The
Room
Okay
Thanks
Very
Much
For
Being
With
Us
Tonight
Steve
Thank
You
Steve
Jackson
From
Steve
Jackson
Games
Here
On
WBAI
And
That
Interview
Was
Taped
Earlier
Tonight
And
Steve
Jackson
Has
Been
Through
Hell
Fighting
For
His
Rights
Under
The
First
Amendment
Fighting
For
The
Right
To
Keep
His
Business
Afloat
And
I
Remember
We
Were
On
Here
About
A
Year
A
Little
More
Than
A
Year
A
Talking
To
Steve
Jackson
When
This
First
Happened
And
We
Talked
To
Craig
Neidorf
When
When
He
Was
Going
Through
His
Problems
And
It's
A
Scary
Thing
You
Know
Because
We
In
The
Computer
Hacker
World
And
Steve
Jackson
Is
Not
Even
In
The
Computer
Hacker
World
But
We
Who
Follow
The
Details
We're
On
The
Front
Line
You
Know
And
It's
Something
When
You
Have
Goons
From
The
Secret
Service
And
Other
Agencies
Coming
And
Tearing
Down
People's
Doors
Taking
Electronic
Equipment
Taking
People's
Answering
Machines
And
Telephones
And
Not
Knowing
The
First
Thing
About
Technology
Just
Knowing
That
The
People
That
They
Suspect
Of
Doing
Something
Are
Evil
People
People
That
Are
The
Witches
Of
The
1990s
People
To
Be
Feared
People
Who
Are
Not
Understood
And
These
Are
The
Folks
That
Are
Going
Around
Implementing
Policies
It's
A
Really
Scary
Scenario
A
Really
Scary
Scenario
Thank
God
There's
Something
Positive
Coming
Out
Of
This
Now
And
I
Am
Very
Happy
Very
Pleased
That
People
Such
As
Steve
Jackson
And
Craig
Nardoff
Had
The guts
To
Stick
It
Out
And
To
Fight
Because
They
Knew
They
Were
Right
How
How
How many
Of
Us
How many
Of
Us
Have
That
Same
Drive
Where
We
Would
Stand
Up
And
Fight
Something
That
Is
Unjust
You
Have
To
Wonder
You
Have
To
Wonder
How
Many
People
Could
Actually
Do
It
It's
It's
Something
That's
Going
To
Keep
Being
Updated
Here
On
This
Radio
Station
And
As
promised
That
Phone
Number
That
We
Are
Going
To
Give
You
For
The
Electronic
Frontier
Foundation
Is
Area
Code
617-864-1550
Folks
It's
Important
It's
Important
That
We
All
Join
Hands
And
Fight
Injustice
Whenever
We
See
It
And
A
Lot
Of
Us
Don't
Understand
The
Actual
Workings
Of
Technology
You
Know
We
Want
To
Know
What
What's
A
Computer
Bulletin
Board
Anyway
And
Basically
It's
It's
A
Gathering
Of
People
Electronically
We
All
Need
To
Go
Out
There
And
Do
This
We
Need
To
Experience
It
Why
Because
This
Is
Something
That's
Going
To
Become
More
And
More
Important
As
The
Years
Go
By
More
And
More
Things
Are
Going
To
Become
Electronic
Rather
Than
Paper
And
If
The
First
Amendment
And
The
Right
Of
Freedom
Of
Speech
And
The
Right
Of
Freedom
Of
Assembly
If
That's
Not
Guaranteed
Electronically
You
Might
As
Well
Say
It's
Not
Going
To
Be
Guaranteed
At
All
Folks
We
Need
To
Hear
From
You
We
Need
To
Get
Some
Pledges
Coming
In
So
We
Can
Continue
To
Bring
You
Things
Like
This
In
The
Future
Because
The
Future
Is
Going
To
Be
Well
Interesting
Is
A
Nice
Word
Scary
Is
A
Not
So
Nice
Word
There
Are
Changes
Happening
There
Are
People
That
People
That
Want
To
Make
Things
Different
They
Want
To
Shut
Down
Publications
Bulletin
Boards
Businesses
And
It's
It's
Scary
To
Think
Of
The
Power
That
They
Have
To
Do
Just
That
Because
That's
That's
How
A lot
Of
The
System
Works
You
Know
Power
Is
Everything
And
If
You
Have
Power
You
Can
Get
Around
In
Convenient
Things
Like
The
Constitution
And
The
First
Amendment
This
Is
Something
That
We
Have
Strived
To
Stand
Up
For
And
To
To
Bring
You
Instances
Where
Violations
Are
Reported
Now
How
How many
How many
Other
Places
Did
You
Hear
About
Steve
Jackson
Games
You
Know
This
Is
Something
That
We
Covered
On
WBAI
Throughout
As
It
Was
Happening
And
Now
As
It's
As
It's
Turning
Around
As
The
Victim
Is
Actually
Fighting
Back
Now
Had
WBAI
Not
Been
Around
For
That
It
Would
Have
Been
One
Less
One
Less
Stone
To
Throw
At
The
Enemy
You
Know
Every
Every
Bit
Of
Media
Attention
Is
Important
And
The
Commercial
Media
Just
Does
Not
Understand
How
Technology
Works
Almost
As
Much
As
As
Government
Agents
Don't
Understand
How
Technology
Actually
Works
It's
Something
Everybody
Has
To
Be
Educated
About
And
A lot
Of
The
A lot
Of
The
Pressures
Of
Commercial
Radio
And
Of
Corporate
Life
Doesn't
Allow
For
A lot
Of
Education
To
Be
Going
On
Here
At
WBAI
We
Try
To
Get
The
Word
Out
We
Try
To
Educate
People
And
Explain
Things
And
Allow
For
Lots
And
Lots
Of
Questions
We're
Going
To
Take
Some
More
Phone
Calls
In
Just
A
Couple
Of
Minutes
212-279-3407
But
First
We'd
Like
To
See
Some
Activity
On
The
Pledge
Line
Which
Is
212-279-3400
Reason
For
This
We're
Not
Just
Asking
For
Money
To
Line
Our
Pockets
We
We
Don't
Line
Our
Pockets
Around
Here
At
At
At
Not
With
Money
We
Want
It
With
I
Don't
Know
Leaflets
And
Papers
And
Notices
And
Things
Like
That
Because
We
Want
To
Remain
Informed
Educated
To



solving some nefarious scheme with computer hackers.
It's, uh, it's something that you don't think will happen in this country, but it does.
It does, and it has to be changed, but the only way it can be changed is through education,
through people knowing what they're talking about.
You have to know why you're standing up for something, why you're fighting for freedom of speech.
You have to have a concept of what freedom of speech is all about.
And here at WBAI, we try to instill that concept of freedom of speech.
We do it 24 hours a day.
Almost every program aired on this radio station would not be able to be aired were we a commercial radio station.
Because there's certain things you just can't do when you've got sponsors breathing down your neck.
It's a reality of the situation, and, uh, I know lots of people in commercial radio that envy what we can do here at WBAI.
We can do anything at WBAI.
WBAI, anything, you name it, we can do it, but we also have to survive.
If we do not survive, if we're not able to raise money, and we are, we have fallen pretty far behind, I think.
I mean, I'm not a professional analyst or anything here, but looking at the numbers, it doesn't look like we're, uh,
we're moving at the clip that I'm used to.
So, that can be fixed with just a few people calling in with some pledges.
212-279-3400.
We know it's 12 minutes after 3 o'clock in the morning, but there's people out there.
There's plenty of people out there.
And you all matter to us.
You all count.
Every person adds something.
And, uh, you may say, well, I can only pledge $25 or something like that.
That's not going to make a difference.
But you get one person pledging $25, you get another person pledging $10, you get another person pledging $15, and...
Before you know it, you're over $50.
And that's significant, folks.
That is significant.
And then you hit $100.
And then you keep going, you know?
It's just one person after another.
We all link arms and move forward.
It's like, you know, when you go down to Washington, D.C. to protest for something, one thing or another.
You think there's something wrong with that?
There's nothing wrong with that.
That's what this nation is all about.
That's what we're supposed to be doing.
And, you know, you walk down, you get off a bus or, you know, a train or whatever, and you see, like, you know, 5, 10 people.
And you say, wow, there's some people here, but it's not really a lot.
And then you turn a corner and you see a hundred more.
And you start feeling good.
And then you all walk down the street and you turn another corner and you see a thousand people.
And it all just keeps growing.
Until you have this massive bunch of individual people, every single person different from the other, but they've all joined together for one thing.
And whether or not they get that one thing immediately, they've participated in the process, they've raised their voices, they have been heard.
And I'll tell you, a couple of times, going down to Washington, D.C., I don't think we would have been heard had it not been for stations like WBAI and the whole Pacifica network.
You know, it's a stepping stone.
One thing leads to another.
And a strong radio station here in New York City leads to people that are inspired to do something in other parts of the country.
Like I mentioned before, WBAI has become famous throughout the world because of what we do here.
And if you go to, you know, other places like Gary, Indiana, I don't mean to pick on them, but I'm just saying, you go to a place that is not New York City, does not have a Pacifica radio station, well, you won't hear the things you hear on this radio station, period.
You won't hear them.
You will not ever hear what we say here.
And that's sad because the only way to make an informed decision is to be able to think of what people are saying, to be able to hear opposition, conflicting views.
Now, a lot of the major networks and most popular, successful commercial stations don't think that's important.
They want ratings.
They don't want controversy.
They don't want people thinking.
They just want to spit the same old garbage out and have you swallow it all.
But you do have a choice.
You can vote.
And commercial radio stations are not free.
They cost you, too.
They cost you plenty because advertising is probably the most expensive thing that...
that a company pays for.
And that certainly passed along to almost every product you buy.
So, yeah, you do pay for commercial radio.
You do pay for commercial TV.
The only way you can pay for non-commercial radio, though, is to pledge.
And that's something that comes right back at you.
Because whenever you pledge to WBAI, you'll be getting the WBAI folio for a full year.
It's 12 months.
And tonight, we're offering several different incentives for people who call in.
First of all, everybody who pledges anything will get a free copy of the magazine that I work for,
which is 2600, the Hacker Quarterly, where we talk about issues such as Steve Jackson games
and the crackdown by the Secret Service on 14-year-old kids who call computers
and do various mischievous things
and then wind up with dozens of people pointing guns at them
and scaring them to death
because of a system they don't understand.
We write about that.
We write about privacy issues, about things that you need to know.
And that's something we also do here on the radio.
It's something we want to continue doing.
Okay, two callers on the line.
Let's get a couple more because we know you're out there.
We know it means something to you.
And we want it to be able to continue.
And we beg for the people calling in to please be patient
because our tally room staff has been rather low.
212-279-3400
And the more calls we get, the better we will be.
The stronger this program will be, the more facts we can bring you.
You know, we can get out there and give you all kinds of information
because there's so much happening.
You know, Steve Jackson games is just one thing.
It's just one thing.
And there's a lot going on.
You know, we told you the story of Kevin Mitnick
who was known as the dark side hacker.
He was the person that could do anything.
He was so dangerous.
This person was so dangerous that
the California authorities had to lock him up in solitary confinement.
Solitary confinement.
For long periods of time.
Because they were so afraid of him.
They thought that once he got to a telephone
he could almost destroy the world.
And these are people in positions of power that feel this way.
These are judges
and prosecutors
and news reporters
that actually believe
that someone is that dangerous.
and that the
systems that are
operating our lives
the computer systems
telephone systems
are so fragile
that one person can cause them
to destroy themselves.
Now Kevin Mitnick has been out of prison
for
for
over a year
about a year and a half
I would suppose
and we wanted to get him
on the program tonight
but you know what
there's a
little condition
of his release
that he not
talked to media
he has to ask permission
every time he talks to anybody
related to the media
and they
don't
grant it
they just don't grant it
it's
the craziest thing
I've ever heard of
but they don't want him
talking to the media
and you have to ask yourself
why is that
you know
what are they afraid
he's going to say
it's
a scary situation
as I said earlier
and it's going to get scarier
unless we have some education
unless we have people
that
show they care
and that are willing to stand up
and speak their minds
please stand up
and speak your minds
by calling us
and
showing you support
this radio station
and are willing to keep it going
because if we don't get those calls
we can't charge into the 90s
with the passion
that we want to charge into the 90s with
imagine if
if we weren't able to be here
or we had to
cut down on the
on our transmitter height
we couldn't afford to
to raise the transmitter
because everybody
on the Empire State Building
is
is moving to a higher location
at an immense cost
if we weren't able to participate in that
less people would be able to participate in the process
and that would be a tragedy
that would be a
a damn shame
212-279-3400
we are getting calls
I see the calls coming in
there's three calls on the line right now
three calls on the line
please
let's get a bingo
we can do it
I know we can do it
212-279-3400
and we want to thank some people
we want to thank Susan from Brooklyn
we want to thank Rick from Clifton, New Jersey
who we mentioned before
we want to thank Florian from New York City
Alice from Mount Kisco
Mark from Manhattan
and John from Woodside
who says
Off the Hook is his favorite show
that's good to know
that's good to know
that makes me feel great to know
that people out there
are into the program
because
you know
I try to find
bits and pieces of information
that
that are pertinent
to what's going on today
you know
there's a lot out there
there's a lot of
of garbage out there
you ever pick up a computer magazine
you read all this trade talk
you know
about operating systems
and
and RAM chips
and all that
it's
it's interesting if you're
in a particular
world
and talking to certain people
and you speak that little lingo
but
once you
once you start talking to
other people
once you start talking to
the people outside the world
you start using that lingo
and you turn them right off
you know
they're not interested in that kind of thing
not interested at all
you have to find a way
to relate it
to relate
your world
to somebody else's world
what we have right now
is
factionalization
where
everybody's in their own world
and nobody is interested
in other people's worlds
and that's
sadly
what happens so much of the time
in the computer world
people see you
sitting down
tapping away at a terminal
and they just think you're nuts
they just think you're interested
in
you know
playing with
with chips
and
and
basic
and C programming
and all that kind of thing
they don't see how it relates
to their world
and it does
oh boy
it does
what computers are doing today
what they're
what they're controlling
what they're designing
what is happening
on the networks
it's
fascinating
it's exciting
it's intriguing
and it's something that affects
each and every one of us
but
if we go through life
not knowing that
not realizing what
what's happening
not seeing the potential threat
and the potential abuses
then we're just
opening ourselves up
for
a kind of oppression
that has never
been experienced
before
look at what's happened
look at what's happened
with
your credit reports
your social security numbers
your phone numbers
you know
there's so much information
about you
currently stored
on computer
that
it would make your head swim
we don't all have
FBI reports
although I think
most of us probably do
but probably
the vast majority of us
do have a file
in TRW
and
that file
decides your future
if you get a bad
credit rating
a bad credit rating
it's almost impossible
to straighten it out
I've heard that
from so many people
and it's so sad
to see this happen
how do you fix
something like that
once somebody has
labeled you
in a particular column
of a computer program
it's hard as hell
to get moved
to the other column
of the computer program
that labels you as good
good or bad
which are you?
no one has ever
asked us
for
our input
did anybody ask you
if
it's okay to keep
a file on you
about your
payment history
on your Sears bill
well
I've got news for you
if you have a Sears card
or if you have a
Visa card
there's a computer file
that says
how you have paid
your bill
over the past
several years
if you're a month late
if you're two months late
if you pay on time
it's all there
and it can be looked at
not
just by computer hackers
no they're not the threat
the threat
is all the people
who make decisions
that are able to just
categorize you
at any time
and then we have
social security numbers
we have all the
phone records
you can find out
so much about somebody
by analyzing their
phone bills
seeing where they were
at a particular time
looking at their
credit card
purchases
what they buy
where they buy it
a lot of information
is stored about all of us
and it's something
that we should
be playing a very
major role in
there's something else
that I sort of like
to dwell upon
but please people
do call
279-3400
area code
212
because
we want to keep
these thoughts
coming at you
we want to keep
the information
coming at you
we want to also
hear from you
we're going to take
some phone calls
in a little while
has anybody
heard of the
the latest
controversy
involving
an online
computer service
online computer
service used by
I believe
a million people
now
a million people
something that's
geared towards
the average
American
this is the
introduction to
computers
to online
technology
a system called
Prodigy
many of you
have heard of it
many of you
probably use it
I'm not going to
pass judgment
on this particular
computer system
because
that's something
that we can do
another time
but
this computer
system has
been criticized
in the past
for censoring
various pieces
of
correspondence
on its
network
and for
kicking
users off
who
criticized
their system
a little bit
too much
but I think
the
most
important
and probably
the most scary
thing has
happened recently
where people
have looked
a little bit
closer at what
Prodigy
actually does
now the way
the system
works is this
you sign up
for an account
and you tell it
what kind of
a computer
you have
and
when you
call up
their system
using your
computer
the two
systems kind
of do
what they
call
handshake
your system
reaches out
and
writes some
data to
the Prodigy
system
and then
Prodigy
and this is
what's new
this is
what's different
Prodigy
reaches back
and does
some stuff
to your
system
and the
reason for
this is
it makes
things go
faster
you can
have
quicker
access to
certain
menus
and screens
because
you have
a profile
a profile
that is
written to
your hard
disk
and it
doesn't
have to
look for
you
in the
in the
Prodigy
computer
somewhere
it can
just look
on your
system
and see
what you
like
and what
you
what your
configurations
are
and it
can
make it
go so
much
quicker
so it's
a good
development
in that
sense
but
there's
something
that nobody
apparently
had ever
thought of
Prodigy
writes a
file
to your
computer
system
a file
that
asks
asks for
a rather
large amount
of memory
something like
200k
I believe
and that
space is
not
always used
in other
words
they
they tell
your computer
that they
need a certain
amount of
space
and they
use some
of it
but the
rest is
just kind
of waiting
to be
used
well
somebody
decided
to
look at
the rest
of the
file
the
unused
section
and they
analyzed
it
they
they went
through
a little
program
that analyzes
every sector
of a disk
and they
looked at
the unused
part
of this
file
which is
known as
stage.dat
and as
they were
looking at
this file
they noticed
something
very disturbing
they noticed
that
in that
unused
section
where
bits
and pieces
of other
files
files
that had
nothing
to do
with
Prodigy
old
letters
old
databases
a listing
of all
the other
files
on the
entire
computer
now
why
was this
information
inside
this file
that Prodigy
was using
it's quite
simple
it's quite
simple
these were
MS-DOS
machines
and it's
the nature
of that
particular
operating
system
to
not
erase
the data
after
an old
file
has been
erased
in other
words
when you
erase a
file
you simply
erase the
name of
the file
but the
data is
still there
and it's
there until
another file
writes over
it
and so
until that
Prodigy
file
known as
stage.dat
had written
over it
that old
data would
still be
there
so
yeah
you could
say
well Prodigy
didn't do
anything wrong
they simply
requested a
certain amount
of space on
your hard drive
and within
that space
was bits
and pieces
of your
old data
but
folks
how many
of you
knew
that that
was how
it worked
how many
of you
knew
that when
Prodigy
did this
they could
conceivably
conceivably
have access
to all of
this information
all it would
take would be
somebody at
Prodigy
looking at
your file
a little
closer
now imagine
if you
were
say
Dan Quayle
or somebody
pick a name
out of a
hat
and Dan
Quayle
subscribed
to Prodigy
and Dan
Quayle
had a file
known as
stage.dat
and one of
you worked
at Prodigy
and knew
that Dan
Quayle
had this
file
would you
not be
rather
tempted
to take
a closer
look at
his stage.dat
file
and when
you did
you would
see
bits and
pieces
of his
personal
letters
and names
of his
other files
and then
you'd be
able to
program
your computer
to access
those files
and so
on and
so on
now suppose
you're a
criminal
or a
suspected
criminal
do you
think law
enforcement
might be
tempted to
ask Prodigy
to look a
little closer
at your
computer since
they have
the capability
of doing
that
there's a lot
of questions
to ask
there and a lot
of disturbing
trends
and since
this particular
kind of
computer system
that Prodigy
is using
seems to
be
what the
future holds
for us
or at
least that's
the way
it's been
promoted
we had
better start
asking those
questions now
before this
becomes
the way
it's done
like I said
it's a scary
prospect
if we
if we
move into
the future
without
education
without
seeing that
every
technical
advance
can have
repercussions
and that
technology
can be
used
against
individuals
that's
something
that
the only
way we
can learn
is by
getting
all the
information
we can
and here
at BAI
we're
determined
to get
that
information
out
please
give us
a call
now
212-279-3400
and show
your support
for this
radio station
show your
support for
the protection
of the
individual
in whatever
way possible
you know
ten years
ago we
weren't even
talking about
this kind
of thing
on the
radio
and I
wonder what
we will be
talking about
ten years
from now
you know
who knows
what kind
of things
will be
happening
then but
we have
the obligation
to stay
on top
of the
situation
we have
the obligation
to learn
as quickly
as things
change
and to
interpret
things
so that
those of
you in
one
particular
world
will see
how
something
in this
world
pertains
to them
it's
extremely
important
not to
lose
sight
of
that
212-279-3400
remember
everybody
that calls
in and
pledges
no matter
what amount
you pledge
will get
a free
copy of
2600
magazine
the hacker
quarterly
which has
been publishing
since 1984
appropriately
enough
and
hopefully
will be
continuing
well into
the future
for those
of you
that
want to
pledge
a large
amount
of money
we still
have
a year
of unlimited
admission
for
two people
to the
new community
cinema
in Huntington
Long Island
that's for
a $500
pledge
and
it's worth
a lot
more
than that
you can
figure it
out
too
if
you want
to go
to
go to
that place
every night
and every
day
for two
people
so for
$500
pledge
you can
get that
we also
have
a course
at the
learning
center
for the
fall
semester
that's
October
through
January
courses
in
community
planning
ecology
feminism
humor
that's
for a
pledge
of $150
you can
get that
in addition
to the
free copy
of 2600
and the
one year
of the
WBAI
folio
that's
one option
there are
many options
you can
pledge
virtually any
amount
that exists
and every
last one
of them
counts
every last
one of
them
helps us
get a
little bit
closer
yeah there's
a lot
going on
out there
a lot
happening
and we
all owe it
to ourselves
to
stay as
on top
of the
situation
as possible
what else
do we have
here we
have
50 ways
to fight
censorship
that's
a book
available
for a
pledge
of $85
oh I'm
sorry I
was wrong
$65
$65 you
can get
the book
50 ways
to fight
censorship
for a
pledge
of $75
you can
get a
three
cassette
kit
called
media
censorship
and the
first
amendment
and this
is all
stuff that
will last
forever
and will
always be
pertinent
always be
important
and timely
as long as
the first
amendment
is around
we also
have t-shirts
and tote bags
and baseball
caps
take your
pick
we have
all those
kind of
things
but it's
not that
so much
it's
what you're
getting back
over the
airwaves
that matters
it's a
strong
signal
strong
programming
and
diversity
variety
that kind
of thing
that's
what's
important
212-279-3400
let's see
one more
call
one more
call
come in
because
we want
to hear
from some
listeners
we want
to read
some more
bits of
information
of which
we have
plenty
212-279-3400
is our
telephone
number
and
yeah
we've been
doing this
for a
while
since
1960
I believe
we've been
on the air
asking for
your support
and
our listeners
have not
let us
down
they
have a
long history
of not
letting us
down
212-279-3400
we want
to thank
people for
calling in
we want
to thank
those of
you that
are considering
calling in
and will
no doubt
do so
in the
moments
ahead
and if
you want
to be
on the
radio
212-279-3407
we'll be
taking questions
in just
a couple
of minutes
this is
a piece
of new
music
from
what's
left of
big audio
dynamite
known as
BAD2
we'll be
back in
a moment
if I
had my
time again
I would
do it
all the
same
and
not
change
a single
thing
even
when I
was the
blind
for the
heartache
and the
pain
that I
caused
throughout
my
my
years
how I
learned
to be
your
man
through the
laughter
and the
tears
situation
I'll win
rush
for a change
about the
spin
I cover one
so I give
in
gotta get
myself
right out
of here
now I'm
now I'm
fully grown
and I know
where it's at
somehow I'll stay thin
while the other guys
got fat
all the chances that I've blown
and the time that I've been
down
I didn't get too
high
kept my feet on the
ground
situation
I'll win
rush for the change
of atmosphere
I'm cold
so I give in
gotta get myself
right out
of here
oh it's delightful
delightful
but all the change
of atmosphere
yeah
I wish I could sing like that
not everything's singing
you know
the only important thing
these days is
rhythm
and melody
rhythm
and melody
what
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
You're welcome.
Thank you.
And that's Mick Jones and the remnants of
his band, Big Audio Dynamite, with their new name, Big Audio Dynamite 2.
And a change of atmosphere.
There's a change of atmosphere coming along here.
We'll return in about 15 minutes with the rest of Off the Hook.
We're on the air until 6 o'clock in the morning.
And we'll be taking phone calls at 212-279-3407.
Taking pledges at 212-279-3400.
We want to thank Michael from New Rochelle for his generous donation.
Night Shift is usually on at this time.
For the next 15 minutes, we're going to be hearing something different.
We'll be back at about 4 o'clock, so stay tuned.
Yeah, I just want to say that I feel just a complete antithesis of how he felt.
I welcome the light touch.
Thank you.
I find you very...
Entertaining.
And if he's not into the light touch...
Well, and you can listen to most of BAI's stuff is...
Eggheads.
You know, what happens is some of these young black people, they think because they have
a little bit of knowledge that everybody else is an egghead, and they only want to talk about
Everybody else is a what?
Everybody else is a what?
Academic things to show off, you know, their knowledge.
You think only black people do this?
What's that?
Only black people do this?
Well, he was a black person.
Yeah.
Well, I find that that's the kind of criticism they're always giving, because they get a little
bit of knowledge, and they have to show off their knowledge, and they can't handle a balanced
light touch.
All right, well, I'm not quite sure what you're saying.
You're saying that, now, are you saying that other than blacks do this, or are you, this
is something you find that happens?
But he was black.
Yeah, yeah, but that's not what I'm asking.
So I'm just commenting on why I feel he, you know, reacted that way, because he's so
full of himself, because he has a little bit of knowledge that he can't handle the light
touch.
Why is that other guy, Chris, is that Chris that's laughing like crazy?
For the most part, yeah.
For the most part, yeah.
What's your name?
My name?
Yeah.
My name is Mike.
Mike?
Yes.
Isn't Curtis on sometimes at this time of this?
No, he's on before us.
Oh, he's on before you.
Yes.
But why does Chris think that that's so funny?
What's so funny?
Well, he thinks it's funny because I'm black, and you just made a comment.
Oh, that's interesting.
But the fact is that I noticed that a lot of black people do that.
They get so carried away because they want to show off their knowledge.
Well, can I offer you another, can I offer you, Mike, you know.
Sidney Smith, Sidney Smith, I feel he's right on, you know.
Sidney is right on.
It's the younger ones.
Are you young?
Yeah.
She's talking about you, Mike.
She's saying you are full of yourself, and you are, you know.
Chris, if anybody at this station were full of themselves, it would definitely be you.
I don't hear you.
No, I was talking to my co-host.
Well, but is Chris black, too?
Yes, he's black, too.
Oh, that's why he's hysterical.
Well, but look, I'm just giving you my opinion, and my opinion is based on the fact that I've
seen this happen time and again with the young people.
I think she's right.
Because they have a little bit of knowledge.
Obviously, I don't think she's right, Chris.
They have to, you know, show off something, you know, something serious, and they're not balanced.
Well, I could tell you this.
I could say several things in response to what you're saying, but I only have like four minutes
left, so I probably couldn't say as much as I wanted to say.
But in defense of these quote-unquote young black people who have, as you put it, a little
bit of intelligence and want to show it off, I think that in a reversal situation that there
are a number of people who have less intelligence of many other races who feel they want to
show it off.
And in my opinion, if you have something to say, I think you should say it.
And that's what I support.
You know, I think that the man who called us, I mean, while I will defend my show and what
we're doing, and even my somewhat full-of-himself partner, I still think that what he had to
say is valid, because there are some people that want to hear something serious.
But what I would say is that he should listen to this station pretty much most of the day.
Late at night, like Curtis and Clue, Curtis and Clue are pretty light, too.
Don't you think?
Well, as a matter of fact, I've been listening to this station for 30 years.
Well, yeah, Chris, yeah, yeah, Chris, yeah, are you there?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, are you there?
Yeah.
So, Chris, what's up with that horn, man?
I don't know.
So, we've got about 10 minutes.
Yeah, that's all we have, it's 10 minutes.
So, this is the very short version.
This is what happens when you don't give money to our show.
That's right.
We get knocked off the air, see?
We've been knocked off the air because we didn't raise enough money last week.
That's right, that's right.
So, I sincerely hope that you help.
Yeah, you gotta start.
You gotta start calling right now.
Definitely.
279-3400 is the number.
Yeah, because Night Shift is...
Night Shift was the show.
Yeah.
If you pledge money, we might be back next week.
Exactly.
If not, Chris will be gone.
I'll be gone and...
And that's it.
And then I guess more blacks will be running the station.
Well, the blacks are taking over.
They're taking over.
They're taking over the station.
Yeah.
And just give us a little bit of intelligence.
We're too much intelligence.
What will happen is that we're going to just get uppity, you know what I'm saying?
Uh-huh.
But we need those contributions because, you know...
That's right.
We've got to stop that takeover.
So, there's all these people calling on 279-3407.
Now, are these people calling for Eric's show?
Yeah, they're calling for Eric's show.
They're calling for Eric's show.
What, uh...
What's that cool tune that you wrote?
That cool thing?
Yeah.
People like when we do cool stuff, don't you?
So, how's it going out there, everybody?
Huh?
It's 3.53 a.m.
We've been allotted 15 minutes because that's all we got, man.
No, but basically because we hear BAI stick together.
That's why.
Yes.
Yes.
Mike, Mike.
What's your place of James Bond, man?
I'm fine.
You found it?
You got it?
Ooh.
Well, anyway, the number is 279-3400, and we're all in a push here to raise some money.
Wasn't there someone who was going to call and pledge something?
279-3400, is that phone lit now?
I don't know.
Is that what's happening?
I don't know.
What was the tally before we came on?
Wouldn't it be great if we come on 15 minutes and raise some money?
That'd be great.
Wouldn't that make us look good?
That'd make us look good.
Don't those listeners who like us want to make us look good?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Everybody wants to make us look good.
Yes.
Ooh, what's that, Mike?
This is something that will be coming your way.
We're doing the whole show in 15 minutes.
That's right.
We're going to play this at least a half an hour in.
I think we have maybe, what, six, seven minutes left?
What do you think?
Yeah, we've got six and a half minutes left.
Six and a half minutes left.
We were allowed at 15 minutes, but we got on it at 3.
It would have been really good if we were listening to the station before we came.
Oh, yeah.
If we were listening to this, but we weren't doing that, were we?
We weren't doing that, no.
Because we don't listen to the station, do we?
Well, I would say we don't listen, but we listen to tapes.
Something like that.
What is this, Mike?
Total insanity?
I don't know.
It has something to do with something called...
If we clear the lines, will we get mad?
We're going to clear all the lines.
See who's there.
There might be somebody we know.
Let's see who's there.
Go.
Hello?
Yes.
Hi.
It occurred to me...
Yes.
In regard to money, it used to be a program where certain corporations would have to match
whatever individuals contributed.
I don't know whether that's still going on, but it would be nicely ironic, for instance,
if somebody out there working for, let's say, AT&T would pledge even a small amount, AT&T
would have to contribute to this program.
That's a very good idea.
That's good.
But that would be commercial corporate sponsors, right?
Right.
I don't know.
That did exist.
I know for IBM, IBM for one, and maybe other ones, too.
It was a general program.
I don't know what it was, whether it was federally subsidized or what.
Right.
Anyway, it was a thought.
It occurred to me when we were talking about the AT&T exclusives they seem to have on the
local phone company.
Also, I had another question.
I don't know whether it's directly...
The tally just went up $25.
Look at that.
Look at that.
We just got $25.
Yes.
I wonder if anybody out there is knowledgeable of...
Knowledgeable of a way to access, let's say, the computer system or at various cable
TV companies to tell them to turn on, let's say, an addressable box to de-scramble your
incoming signal from them.
Right.
I don't know.
That's a question for the guy who's on our show.
That's right.
The guy who's doing our time.
Yes.
So we can't answer that.
We can't answer that.
But if we can get another question, can you answer that?
I have a social security number.
You want to take a crack at it?
Which one?
Is it yours?
Yeah, mine.
Uh-huh.
Okay.
Well, thanks for your call.
066.
066?
Yeah.
Copper wire around it and broadcast it.
Can I get all this space?
We can definitely do it.
Oh, man.
Let's make our own radio station.
Yes.
With WFISH.
Oh, man.
If anybody wants to call and say hello to us, it's 279-3407.
Yeah.
We can take one call.
Hello, man.
Here we go.
But Fish, man.
How you doing, man?
I'm doing all right.
Oh, man.
So what do you think of this tune?
So Fish, did you make your pledge yet?
We've got to make our pledge a little good.
I tried, but I'm all maxed out of my credit card.
No, they'll take cash.
They'll bill you, man.
They'll bill everybody.
You can send us a check.
You say, I ain't paying.
I'll pledge if they bill me.
Yeah, well, call.
It's 279-3400.
Fish, stay there.
Hello.
Hello, you're on the air.
Yeah.
Hello.
Fish, stay there.
I've got a couple of things I figured I'd update you on that came up during the program
tonight.
Well, then I tell you what.
You should call back in like two minutes.
I thought I was too lucky to catch up.
All right.
Well, actually, you know what?
You should just hang out.
Yeah, just hang out.
And then, then, then.
Because we'll be gone.
You can get back into your show.
Eric, are you going to take calls when you come right back on?
All right.
Then I guess you're going to have to hang out.
Yeah, you're going to have to hang out.
All right.
What's with this?
He just hung out.
He hung out.
He said hang out.
Hello, you're on the air.
Yo, man.
Who's this?
This is the night shift, man.
Oh, no.
Who is this?
I did my pledge, Mr. Stickworks.
Hey, he did his pledge.
Hey, what's up, man?
What's up?
How are you?
Tired.
Tired?
Tired.
Hey, what's up?
I don't know, man.
Get some sleep, man.
Say what?
All right.
Well, we've got our final minute.
Man, turn your phone on, man.
You've got to turn the radio down.
Turn your radio down.
We've only got like, hold on.
Hello, you're on the air?
Yeah, let me turn my phone down.
Oh, it's Monroe.
He's going to give something.
Monroe, do you have anything?
Monroe, look, you know.
Actually, you know what?
I saw this really good film.
Let me talk about this.
Only the Lonely and What About Bob.
What About Bob is really good, and everybody should go see it.
So all the night shifters out there that want to know, it's an excellent review.
I give it a nine.
Go see it.
It's smoking, man.
Now, as far as Only the Lonely, Only the Lonely was a great script, Mike.
That's because you can identify with the lead character probably, right?
Yeah, John Candy.
The Lonely is some of the Hugh guys on your radio show.
Oh, is that Fish?
Yeah, it's Fish.
Fish, you remember one thing.
You should go see my friend Sanchez.
He can make you some money for a price.
Death comes quickly to those who deserve it.
Yo, guys.
Peace and love.
All right, you two.
We're going.
Fish?
Yeah.
You're the only one who's left.
Only one that's left?
There's the callers.
I went to Monroe.
He hung up on Monroe.
Monroe hung up.
Did you guys get cut off yet?
Is this other guy on you?
No, he'll be on in another minute.
A minute and a half.
He's standing guard.
He's holding his post.
He's standing guard.
That's right.
As a matter of fact, he's got a gun to curse his head right now.
You guys are gone.
This is what happens, Will.
Come on home.
We're going to go see more.
Now he enters my fight looking as though he just exhumed his grandmother with his bare hands.
Absolute candidness.
That's what I demand from the people around me.
Do I make myself clear?
Yes, sir.
Hey, hey.
As for our immediate requirements, see that fully met.
Filthy pig.
Last week he offered me an unwashed glass.
Now he enters my fight looking as though he just exhumed his grandmother with his bare hands.
Absolute candidness.
That's what I demand from the people around me.
Do I make myself clear?
Yes, sir.
As for our immediate requirements, see that...
We're going to get out of here.
Just three more bits.
Because once they are, I shall then seal off the district and put the inhabitants through a sieve.
All 80,000.
Because once they are, I shall then seal off the district and put the inhabitants through a sieve.
All 80,000.
Okay.
Because once they are, I shall then seal off the district and put the inhabitants through a sieve.
If anybody else wants to pledge the night shift, go right ahead at 279-3400.
Marship Enterprise.
2-7-9-3400.
Bring that up.
Let's see who else is here and we'll get out of here in 30 seconds.
Hello, you're on the air.
30 seconds?
Yeah.
30 seconds.
29 seconds.
Hello?
Hello?
Speak to Emanuel.
Emanuel?
Emanuel?
Okay.
Emanuel?
All right.
We'll hold that call.
Stay there.
Stay there, man.
Emanuel will be on with you.
Just stay there, man.
We're going to do an interlude.
Hello, you're on the air.
Can you hang out?
Hello?
Yes?
I can't hear you through the phone.
Wait, hold on.
Oh, jeez.
Okay, go ahead.
Fish, I'm going to let you go.
No, well, listen.
We've got to go.
Fish, we'll see him.
We've got 15 seconds.
The two of you release.
Ooh.
All right.
Ooh.
We're going.
We do, don't we?
Okay, that call's still on.
That guy's still on.
We'll see you later.
And we'll be back next week.
Yes.
In our usual slot.
And this has been the 15-minute version.
Of Night Shift.
Of Night Shift.
Thank you.
We came in and we did our thing.
We made $25, right?
Yes, we did.
All right.
Actually, there's a call in now.
We probably made $50.
$50.
Goodbye.
Bye.
Bye.
Bye.
Bye.
Bye.
Bye.
Bye.
Bye.
Bye.
Bye.
Bye.
Bye.
Bye.
Bye.
Bye.
Bye.
Bye.
Bye.
Bye.
Bye.
Bye.
Bye.
Bye.
Bye.
Bye.
Bye.
Bye.
Bye.
Bye.
Bye.
Hi, it's Emmanuel.
I'm back.
They've released me.
We're going to go to something from...
the other half of what used to be
big audio dynamite screaming target
then we're going to go take some phone calls
as promised
along with some other fun things
off the hook until 6 o'clock
what is this?
one more time
string up the horn
string up the speaker
hometown high five
there ain't no tweeter
string up the horn
bullets flying
work spin round
tummy's dying
right
here me now
here them slides are reaching out
see
oh
big boats
there ain't no
there ain't no
there ain't no
12 p.m.p.
tribal war
where the palatisian are
I'm a star
gun man I run
gun man I hide
murder one and I let them go to the side
lot ask you a question
how can it be
we have to make a weapon on the gun battery
killing off your brother
cause I'm money
no step on my throat
on my territory
moving air on the gun
يرة on the gun
rule
go
luis
luis
luis
luis
luis
luis
luis
luis
lyas
luis
luis
Swing up the horn, string up the speaker
Hometown high-five, there ain't no sweet as luck
Check your weapon here at the door
Nobody blood on the dance floor
Downing J.A. Try me, don't pay
A gun shot that day, cause it's boring for me
Big man, shot boy, rat-a-tat
He's still talking wheels and the ones for cat
Wreck spin round, bullets flying
Throatin' high
Eeeerl-mino, yeah
Eeeerl-mino
Birdie
Tennis on rampage won't make your worry
This is a far I know he's going to be
Bloodman a run, Bloodman a hide
It is an Osweir, so we died
Asked your question, how could it be,
You have so many weapons under the factory
Murder one another, sucks that money
Don't stepp on my toe, on my territory
Territory, territory, territory,
All right.
Thank you.
And from Donlitz's new band, Screaming Target, who killed King Tubby from the forthcoming album, Hometown Hi-Fi, here on WBAI in New York.
The program is off the hook, dealing with high tech, the abuses thereof, and various little secrets that you're probably not supposed to know about.
This is Emanuel Goldstein, and yes, we will be with you for another couple of hours.
We have a phone call. Good morning.
I have a question.
What's your question?
Okay, why is it that network mailing lists and such that are usually carried only on Unix boards like BitNet and Arpanet are never carried on MS-DOS, BBS networks like Rime and VitalNet?
Well, you know, what we're dealing with as far as the Unix systems and all that, they're generally much larger.
I would imagine, anyway, the systems that you access, they're multi-user, they have university affiliations much of the time.
I don't personally see why there can't be more integration, but it's a fact that there isn't, that a lot of these systems seem to be ones that are similar in nature.
You have Unix systems in many college campuses and institutions all over the place.
The fight on that is just like a whole different world.
You know, they don't seem to want to get off into another world and integrate.
There has to be more of that, but still, you know, the uniqueness of each system has to prevail as well.
Yeah.
It's a good question.
I wish I had a good answer for it.
Okay, I also wanted to mention that, you know, there are telephone books with our first phone numbers.
Yeah, calls directories.
Yeah, and they're issued for every telephone area code.
Right, those won't give you unlisted numbers, though.
They don't list unlisted numbers?
No, no, they will not list unlisted numbers.
They will tell you an address that has an unlisted phone number, which is kind of interesting, but they will not give unlisted.
I mean, it's pretty easy to figure out what the unlisted phone numbers are, since, you know, it gives it in two ways.
It gives it by address, and it gives it by phone number.
And you'll see numbers that skip.
Right.
So they're the unlisted ones, obviously.
Okay.
Another thing.
It used to be that everybody had a unique exchange, you know, like a Gantt-9 or something like that.
Yeah, they spelled out things.
Yeah.
What happened to change that?
Well, the phone companies just pretty much, or the phone company, actually, back then, decided that that kind of system wasn't modern enough.
They wanted to go all numbers.
It's kind of funny, because we've sort of moved back into spelling things out with phone numbers now.
Yeah, it's a lot easier.
But it's not in the same way.
Exchanges used to mean something, you know.
It used to, I'm not old enough to remember what they actually were, but, like, Stilwell, I think, was one.
And, you know, ST would be the first two numbers.
Right, right.
Yeah, there's some exchanges that, on the east side, meant that you looked at it in a very exclusive area or something like that.
Uh-huh.
Now, that's all changed, because you can get numbers, you know, a lot of different exchanges now, and there's new exchanges all over the place.
I guess it's something that just went away with growth.
Okay, and one last comment.
Yeah.
Why is it that most journalists in mainstream newspapers never understand the issues involved when it comes to some sort of so-called computer crime,
but always take for granted whatever prosecutors or law enforcement officials say?
Well, I don't think you're seeing anything unique to computers there.
I think you're seeing the way a lot of journalists operate.
They do believe what the prosecution tells them.
They believe what authority figures tell them.
What's different here is you have something new.
You have some new technology that should be understood or should be attempted to be understood by journalists,
but a good journalist will try, at least.
A good journalist will try, but unfortunately, most journalists are not that good.
Well, I would expect more, since, I mean, they all use modems.
They all use, they all have computers, and they all can subscribe to your journal or to other journals or Computer Underground Digest and things like that.
And I would expect, you know, that a few of them would at least understand what the technology is and understand what a bulletin board is.
They must have younger children using bulletin boards.
Yeah, there is a big generation gap with kids using bulletin boards and their parents who don't know what they're doing.
And that holds true for people in the journalism business as well.
A lot of them do not understand what these kids are up to.
And that leads to all kinds of misunderstandings and false perceptions and fear, lots of fear.
Yeah, that's the problem, fear.
All you read about is fear in newspapers.
We've got journalists showing up at the 2600 meetings all the time, and nine times out of ten, they don't know the first thing about any of this.
I mean, I can't tell you the number of times where I've done interviews with journalists, newspaper, TV, radio, and always the first thing they say is,
I don't know anything about computers, so, you know, talk to me on that level.
Now, you know, there's two reasons for doing that.
Of course, they want to appeal to their readers, listeners, viewers, whatever, who don't know anything about computers.
But I find most times they really do not know anything about computers, and I wonder, why in the world are you doing this story if you don't know anything about it?
And the unsettling thing is I found that this is the way it works more often than not on any story.
You mean any technology story?
No, any story.
Not just technology.
They don't have experts.
It's a job to them.
They do the best they can, but they're not experts on what they're talking about, which means they...
I mean, ask anybody who has ever been covered in the media if they are being interpreted correctly, and the answer is always no.
Well, all I see in the newspapers is a lot of sensationalism and no information.
Well, of course, because look at every newspaper, look at every TV station.
They're all there to sell something, to get you, to hook you, you know, so that you buy the paper or you watch the newscast and hence all the commercials.
And that's the difference between what we do here at BAI, obviously, because we don't need to hook you.
You listen because you're interested, and we talk because we're interested in what we're talking about, and that's as simple as it gets.
I know.
I'm a trucker.
I wasn't trying to pressure you or anything like that.
I'm a subscriber, Andy Wood.
Well, that's great, and I hope everybody that is calling up is a subscriber because it's very important that the station remain strong.
Okay, thank you very much.
Thanks very much for calling.
Right, bye-bye.
And I believe somebody called before and said 066.
Was that what they said for their Social Security number?
That's New York, folks.
I think that person was born in New York.
That's my feeling.
That's my opinion.
If you trust me with the first three numbers of your Social Security number, I can probably tell you where you were born.
Boy, I just feel so powerful.
Good morning.
Sounds like you're making something.
Good morning.
Hi, how are you doing?
Yeah, I was running some water there.
Running some water, okay.
Let's just listen.
Yeah.
The technology thing is a real problem.
And that caller before, I caught the end of his early, a couple hours ago, he was telling you you were misleading us.
What was, I missed the end of what, I caught the end of what he was saying.
What was the gist of it, you were misleading us in what way?
Well, by telling people that they should judge a company based on its actions, I guess.
Well, you heard the feature where, to reveal for the people who haven't listened, that AT&T will not tell you how to access operators through MCI or through Sprint.
However, Sprint and MCI both tell you how to access operators through AT&T.
My view on that is that AT&T is not telling you anything about their competitors.
AT&T is far ahead of their competitors.
So that tells you something about the mentality of that company.
Yet, these competitors, even though they're far behind AT&T, will tell you how to access AT&T.
I just think that's interesting and that tells you something about the way the different companies operate.
All right.
So what I want to say, Eric, is that, I'm sorry, Emmanuel, that, yeah, you got this technology monster a la George Orwell 1984, something like that, right?
Well, it's...
That's the general theme which you've been giving us for the past year or so on BAI, right?
It's not...
Is that a fair summation?
Well, it's not that organized, you see.
It's not in the hands of...
All right, it's not that organized, but it's the idea of invasion because of technological things that have a good side also have a negative side, right?
Well, correct, yes.
But it's not...
I don't want to make it seem like it's that simple.
No, it's not that it's...
How do I mean to make it simple?
What if I was simple about it?
Well, it's just that there is no, you know, no one evil entity out there.
It's not an organized plot.
Exactly, but it can still be used against the individual as if there were.
So what did you mean by...
What did I say that made it sound simple?
Well, no, I just didn't want to give the impression that, you know, that we're going on saying something about the, you know, the evil government or the evil corporations all plotting and scheming because I don't really think they're to that point yet.
Right.
But we're giving away a lot of tools, a lot of methods that could one day be used for just that purpose.
Like, imagine a Hitler rising in, say, 30 years somewhere after all of this computer technology is in place to allow them to monitor people, to spy on people, to categorize people.
Exactly. And that's where I take the big issue with you right there. I don't see there being a Hitler in 30 years. That whole thing went down in 1939, whatever, because of a different world.
I don't see that coming about today because there are going to be a lot of other people who are, well, whatever, that's where we're part company.
What is going down now is racism, sexism, all the isms, and they're operating just fine with the technology that's not yet become the monster, which it may become,
but that it is the helpful thing, which you think it is, even the helpful thing, well, given the helpful side of it, we still have, you know, wage oppression and jobs we hate and this stuff.
So I wish you could just, like, address yourself to other aspects of life than just this technology, possible invasion, which might come about if a Hitler, you know, comes into power.
Well, I mean, it's not going to be a Hitler, but it is going to be something else. We can't predict what. That's always been our talent, not predicting the future.
I mean, the invasions that take place, they'll take place anyway. They have the information on people, files on people through stuff that was around 20 years ago, you know, social security numbers, like you said.
They had social security numbers in place a long time ago, and they have enough technology they had 20 years ago is enough to trace all of the, you know, when the death squads,
when the right-wing death squads want to get somebody, they've got their low-level technology, as low as it is in all South American countries and Central American countries, that exists.
It's much less advanced, right? But still, they have no problem going out and getting the people. So we don't got to worry about this great advance in technology.
We got to worry about other things that are going to come down. If someone's going to come down like Hitler in 30 years,
they're not going to need sophisticated technological knowledge bases to get us, okay?
Well, that kind of tool will make things so much easier.
Okay, Eric. Thanks a lot.
Thanks for calling.
And our phone number is 212-279-3407 to be on the air and 3400 to make a pledge.
And, yes, you know, I have to keep believing that lack of education is the biggest problem here.
You know, people that don't see the importance of understanding how things work
and how they could conceivably be used against you, like the stage.dat file that Prodigy has.
And maybe the California licenses.
Oh, you haven't heard about this, have you?
Well, let's access the Risks Digest again.
All right, this comes from Alan Nishioca of Berkeley.
I just got my new California driver's license.
It has a holographic plastic laminate of DMV and the California seal.
It's very nice.
My color picture was digitized into an IBM computer, as was my thumbprint and my signature.
The magnetic stripe on the back has three tracks.
And just for fun, I thought I'd try to read it.
I'd previously been able to read bank cards.
I found that the information encoded is basically just what is printed on the card.
Kind of uninteresting.
Of course, I couldn't figure out what little extra information was encoded.
It took me a little while to figure out the format, and I suppose it is documented somewhere, but it was fun.
There's all kinds of bits of information here.
It goes into license number, unidentified digits, a separator, expiration date, date of birth.
But imagine, it's a driver's license where you have your thumbprint digitized on it.
I'm sure if something like that was happening in New York, we'd be rather concerned as to how that could be used.
You know, it's a good way to instantly identify somebody, but do we necessarily want to be instantly identified?
Have we reached the stage where we have to be instantly identified?
I'm reserving judgment on that for the moment.
Because I'm not sure.
But, I do believe we need to know more.
And you know, as long as this happens, there's always that spirit of rebellion.
This comes from a less earnest of Stanford.
A news report indicates that an increasing number of Americans are thumbing their noses
at the federal government's mindless insistence on classifying everyone into traditional ethnic categories.
The feds are reportedly fighting back with advanced computer technology.
Several years ago, I pointed out that no one had yet devised a scheme that would reliably and unambiguously assign each individual to a particular racial or ethnic category.
And that was later developed into an article arguing that all statistical studies of racial or ethnic categories and the governmental programs based on them, especially affirmative action, rest upon unstable foundations.
I advocated answering questions about one's ethnicity with mongrel.
And a number of people later told me that they had used that answer or similar ones in the 1990 federal census.
A recent news story says that the Census Bureau received many answers such as
They somehow decided that most of these responses came from people of Hispanic descent, according to Roderick Harrison, chief of the Race Statistics Branch of the Census Bureau.
Other answers included
And, child of God, none of your business, N-O-Y-B and N-O-Y-F-B.
The article goes on to say,
This year, for the first time, spiffy new technology enabled the Census to decipher each and every write-in answer to the race question.
In 1980, only a small sample was read.
The Census computer was able to sort and assign about 85% of those unique responses to a racial group.
This is truly a remarkable claim, apparently, the computer has somehow figured out not only how to classify individuals into ethnic classes, but how to do it even when they give ambiguous or misleading answers.
If this claim holds up under scrutiny, I will nominate it as the first example of true artificial intelligence.
The article goes on to mention that there are limits to its classification abilities, but the computer could not match about 200,000 quirky, smart aleck and just plain weird answers such as golden child, extraterrestrial, alien, exotic hybrid, exchange student,
fat pig, father adopted, race unknown, all of the above, handicapped, and exquisite.
Despite these limitations, it appears that the Census Bureau is well ahead of the rest of the world in computer science.
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The sound of the ship is quite dangerous.
Thank you.
Amen.
And again, our telephone number is 212-279-3400.
And if you want to be on the air, it's 212-279-3407.
And in a moment, we're going to be reaching out.
Amen.
Amen.
Amen.
Amen.
Amen.
Amen.
Amen.
Amen.
Amen.
Amen.
Amen.
Amen.
Amen.
Amen.
Amen.
Amen.
Amen.
Amen.
Amen.
And you know, it's just about that time where we do something wild, and we do something crazy, and we flex our muscles and move out into cyberspace.
Yes, it's time for another episode of Confuse the Operator.
Confuse the Operator requires a dial tone.
Ah, thank you.
And a phone number.
And lots of static on the line.
Let's try that again.
And a working console.
And a working console.
Okay, we should have something working in just a moment.
You know, this phone system is really terrible.
It's not even allowing me to make a phone call.
Okay, we should have something working in just a moment.
Okay, we should have something working in just a moment.
You know, this phone system is really terrible.
It's not even allowing me to make a phone call.
Talk about Confuse the Operator.
We should have something in just a moment.
I'll do it in the non-theatrical way.
Okay.
One moment, please.
I'm waiting for an operator here.
Oh, she hung up on me.
I can't believe this.
What's wrong with you?
What did she say?
I'll operate.
I mean, that's not the way a phone operator is supposed to work, is it?
All right, let's try it again.
We're going to get an operator here, folks.
It's the last thing we do.
Imagine.
Delays are unconscionable.
What if I fall into the floor?
Couldn't get up.
Hello?
Is there an operator there?
Yes, how can I help you?
Yes, hello.
I need overseas information, please.
One moment for an operator who can assist you.
Thank you.
Boy, was that a recording or was that a recording?
AT&T, how may I help you?
Yes, is this AT&T?
Yes.
Hi, I need the telephone number for AT&T, please.
This would be in the country that used to be known as Burma, but is now known as Myanmar.
Burma?
Yeah, no, not Burma anymore, but Myanmar.
It used to be Burma.
It's spelled M-Y-A-N-M-A-R, I believe.
And you need an area code?
No, there's the AT&T office in the city known as Yangon, which used to be called Rangoon.
Okay, hold on, please.
Thank you very much.
Okay.
I'm going to connect you to my business office and let me try and give you the number.
Hold on.
You're going to connect me to where?
To our business office.
The business office in Rangoon?
Or, I'm sorry, Yangon?
Rangoon?
I'm trying to reach overseas information there.
Oh, okay.
Hold on a minute.
Thank you.
Yeah, that's fine.
I have to connect you to another operator, just a moment, because we don't have the
routings coming from New York.
Hold on.
Another operator, huh?
Okay.
Another operator will take care of that.
Hold on.
Okay.
That'll be my third operator.
But who's counting?
Hello?
Hello?
Is this another operator?
Hey, T-U-O-C.
How can we help you?
Uh, yes, hi.
I'm trying to reach overseas information in the country that used to be known as Burma,
but is now called Myanmar.
It's now called Myanmar?
Myanmar.
M-Y-A-N-M-A-R.
Just a moment.
Thank you.
You're saying M-like, Marian, and Wattic, yellow?
Yes.
A-Apple, N-N-N-S-E-L-E, I guess.
It's still listed under Burma, sir.
Oh, it's still listed under Burma.
It's been Myanmar for about two years now.
Well, perhaps so, but, see, probably mostly because of the coatings.
Once they're established, it'll be difficult, too.
It would have to be changed internationally for, probably, it is about close to a thousand
countries.
Oh, really?
So, probably, they just leave it as Burma only because of the fact that it's already
being coded that way.
A thousand countries, eh?
Well, anyway, I need overseas information for the capital city, which I was told was Yangon,
but I guess it's still called Rangoon, then.
Yeah, it's Rangoon.
Okay.
So, what else do you need to know?
Well, I need to know the number over there for the AT&T office in Rangoon, or Yangon,
or wherever.
I'm confusing myself here.
I know what you're saying.
Okay, it does get quite confusing.
I know when we changed Rhodesia to Zimbabwe for a while, we had a lot of problems.
Yeah, that was a real pain.
I remember that.
And then when they split Yemen in half, we've gone through a lot of this.
Yeah, but now Yemen's joined together again.
Yeah, but we used different coatings.
Uh-huh.
I guess the Germany situation really kind of messed things up.
Well, we still use different coatings.
See, the phone company is very, very set in their ways.
They don't change as fast as other things do.
Uh-huh.
Sometimes it reverts back to the original, and we're right where we need to be.
I've heard rumors to that effect.
Okay, hold on, please.
Okay, thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
4.40 in the morning.
Just waiting for the operator here is what we're doing.
No need to be alarmed.
We're checking, sir. Hold on, please.
Thank you very much.


Hey sir, here's the supervisor, he's going to try to help you.
Okay.
Where am I now?
This is Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.
You're looking for an AT&T office in Burma?
That's right.
Okay, do you...
What's it listed as, sir?
Is it a manufacturing, or...?
Well, gosh, I just thought it was the main number for AT&T in Rangoon, or Yangon,
or whatever the capital happens to be called.
We don't have any listings or any numbers as far as overseas here
for AT&T organizations in foreign countries.
Are you able to connect me to the operator over there?
Try that. I guess we need to know...
They'd probably need to know what to look for.
You know, whether it just be listed under AT&T, or would it be listed under, you know, like a manufacturing, or...?
It's not manufacturing. I'm pretty sure it's...
Service center?
Not service center either, but long distance kind of thing.
You mean as far as, like, operators?
Not operators, but just telecommunications, such as microwave links or satellite links, that kind of thing.
Let me see if I can find anything here. If I have a listing first, if you can hold on a minute, okay?
Okay.
Thank you.
Hello?
Hello?
Hello?
Hello?
Hello?
Operator, are you still there?
Hang up? Can you believe that? He hung up?
Wow.
That's unconscionable behavior.
To all that to hang up on us.
What should I do? Should I call back, or should I just accept this?
I should call back, huh? Okay.
I'm being told to call back, and to call back hard.
So that's exactly what I'm going to do.
That's exactly what has to be done.
Now, I apologize for all the long pauses that we're hearing here, but unfortunately, the way this phone system is set up here at the radio station,
everything I say is heard by the operators, you know, and every bit of music I play is heard by the operators.
So I can't play anything really loud, because then I won't be able to hear the operators.
It's possible that that little bit of music that we're listening to right now is enough to throw the operator off.
So let's see if we can actually get to the stage of getting a phone to ring in Burma.
Phone. One moment, please.
Hello, I need overseas information, please, for Burma.
One moment for an operator who can assist you. Thank you.
AT&T, how can we help you?
Hello, I need overseas information for Burma, please.
Thank you. One moment.
Thank you.
AT&T, how can we help you?
AT&T, New York, from Anon calling 212-279-3407.
Thank you. Hello.
Hi, I need overseas information for Burma, please.
What number are you calling?
Well, I need information.
I can give you that with the operator.
That would be fine.
All international circuits to the country you are calling are busy.
One moment, I'll try.
It doesn't sound too promising, eh?
No.
All international circuits to the country you are calling are busy now.
Please try your call later. 412-1T.
412, that's the area code for Pittsburgh, isn't it?
Yeah.
Huh.
That's where we're at. That's where I'm located.
That's where you are, huh?
Yeah.
So I guess all the circuits are busy at this time of day?
Do you know what time it is in Burma?
Where? In Burma?
I'm sorry?
In Burma?
Yes.
316 PM.
316 PM, and I guess that would be tomorrow.
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah, the circuits are busy now. You'll have to try again later.
I'll try after they get home from work or something.
Okay, thanks very much for your help.
You're welcome. Bye-bye.
Bye.
Yes, our mission has ended in failure, unfortunately.
But we did try. We did reach out.
We did confuse some operators.
And you know what the best part of it is?
It didn't cost a cent.
Because even if we had connected to an operator over there,
overseas information is still free,
as opposed to local information, which costs 45 cents.
Go figure.
Our phone number, 212-279-3400 for pledges.
212-279-3407 for on-air banter.
Paranormal sound waves.
What are paranormal sound waves?
They are voices of unknown characters.
They are paranormal sounds.
Their sound.
I don't understand the languages.
I don't understand the languages.
I only hear their sound.
But you call me.
Lights are going down slowly.
In the woods the animals are moving.
In my feelings you're talking to me.
Your voice is moving through me.
You talk as if you knew me.
So tell me what you are.
Example number 22.
The sun is shining slowly.
The birds are flying so low.
Honey, you're my one and only.
So pay me what you owe me.
Example number 23.
The sun is shining slowly.
The birds are flying so low.
Honey, you're my one and only.
So pay me what you owe me.
So pay me what you owe me.
So pay me what you owe me.
Ooh, that was a good one.
The loudspeaker spoke up and said
The loudspeaker spoke up and said Christianity is stupid, Christianity is stupid, Christianity
is stupid, Christianity is stupid, Christianity is stupid, Christianity is stupid, Christianity
is stupid, Christianity is stupid, Communism is good, Communism is good, Communism is good,
Communism is good, give up, give up, give up, give up, give up, Christianity is stupid,
Christianity is stupid, Christianity is stupid, Christianity is stupid, give up, give up, give
up, give up, give up, give up, give up, give up, give up, give up, give up, give up, give
up, give up, give up, give up, give up, give up, give up, give up, give up, give up, give
up, give up, give up, give up, give up, give up, give up, give up, give up, give up, give
up, give up, give up, give up, give up, give up.
Shop as usual
and avoid panic buying.
I beg you treat me good.
I'm like a walking razor, don't you watch my size.
I'm dangerous.
He said I'm dangerous.
I'm like a walking razor, don't you watch my size.
I'm dangerous.
Dangerous.
If you are a bully,
treat me good.
If you are a bully, a bully,
I beg you treat me good.
I'm like a stepping razor, don't you watch my size.
I'm dangerous.
Dangerous.
I'm like a stepping razor, don't you watch my size.
I'm dangerous.
Dangerous.
If you are a chucky,
nobody chucky from me.
If you are a chucky, chucky,
nobody chucky from me.
I'm like a stepping razor, don't you watch my size.
I'm dangerous.
Dangerous.
I'm like a stepping razor, don't you watch my size.
I'm dangerous.
Dangerous.
If you are a cheat or a sport,
you better treat me good.
If you drink, let's sue!
You better treat me good.
I'm like a stepping razor, don't you watch my size.
I'm dangerous.
Dangerous.
I'm like a stepping razor, don't you watch my size.
I'm dangerous.
Dangerous, dangerous
If you a bull bucka
Nobody buck from me
If you a dopey
Get away from me
I'm like a stepping razor
Don't you watch my side
I'm dangerous, dangerous
I'm like a stepping razor
Don't you watch my side
I'm dangerous, dangerous
If you wanna live
Treat me good
Warning you, if you wanna live
You better treat me good
I'm like a stepping walking
Cutting, flicking, jumping, chopping, walking
I'm dangerous, I'm dangerous
I'm like a stepping jumping
Don't you watch my side
I'm dangerous
I'm dangerous
Call always
Remember to answer as promptly as possible
Try to answer before the second ring
Identify yourself when answering
Mr. Brown's office, Miss Andrews
Personnel, Mason
Speak distinctly and pleasantly
Hold mouthpiece well up in front of lips
Avoid trite or abrupt phrases
Who's calling?
Just a moment
He's busy
He's in conference
He's tied up
He isn't in
Volunteer the whereabouts and whenabouts
Of an absent person
He can be reached in Mr. Jones' office
Extension 2094
He is out of the building until 3 o'clock
May I locate him and ask him to call you?
Volunteer your own assistance
Is there something I could do?
Could I help you?
Or anyone else?
Request identity of caller only when necessary
And in a tactful manner
May I have your name?
May I ask who this is, please?
Explain off-the-line delays
It's in the files
Can you wait a moment?
Take messages willingly
Write essential details on a suitable message form
Deliver promptly
Transfer elsewhere only
When you know definitely the correct person or number
Give caller these facts before transferring
Thank you
Timely telephone tips
From the Defense Department phone book
When you make a telephone call
Always remember to plan an effective conversation
Get your thoughts in order before calling
Place the call yourself except in special circumstances
Make sure you are on the line ready to talk when the called person is reached
Have the correct number or extension in mind
Consult your directory or personal phone number list
Listen for dial tone
Dial carefully
See general information page in your directory
Identify yourself immediately to the first person answering the called telephone
This is Mr. Johnson
May I speak to Mr. Hodges, please?
Identify also, when helpful, your office and purpose in calling
Mr. Brown in accounts, returning Mr. Green's call
Ask whether called person has time to talk now
If call is likely to be lengthy
Try to complete your business on one call by securing information or leaving a message
Volunteer your extension in the best time to reach you in case you request a call back
Keep your conversation brief and business-like
Person
Person equals Alex
Echo person
Person
Echo dollar sign person
Alex
The second line shows that person does not represent Alex
The string person is echoed as person
The shell only substitutes the value of a variable when you precede the name of the variable with a dollar sign
The command echo dollar sign person displays the value of the variable person
It does not display dollar sign person because the shell does not pass dollar sign person to echo as an argument
Because of the leading dollar sign the shell recognizes that dollar sign person is the name of a variable
Substitutes the value of the variable and passes that value to echo
The echo command displays the value of the variable, not its name, never knowing that you called it with a variable
The final command displays the value of the variable person
You can prevent the shell from substituting the value of a variable by quoting the leading dollar sign
Double quotation marks will not prevent the substitution
However, single quotation marks or the backslash character will
Echo dollar sign person Alex
Echo dollar sign quote person unquote Alex
Echo single quote dollar sign person single quote dollar sign person
Echo backslash dollar sign person dollar sign person
The echo of the distant life comes willowing across the sand
And everything is greed or suffering
And no one shouts to the night
And no one knows who has your mind
But something stares and something tries
As long as the blind do not fall
Strangers passing in the street
By chance two separate classes meet
And I am you and what I see is me
Do I take you by the hand
And lead you through the land
And help me understand the best I can
No one calls us to the lawn
And no one forces down our eyes
No one speaks and no one tries
No one flies around the sun
No one calls us to the lawn
And no one forces down our eyes
No one speaks and no one tries
Echo hi, hi
Echo this is a sentence
This is a sentence
Echo good morning
Good morning
Good morning
Date
Thursday, May 23, 05-1304
Every file has a path name
You can build the path name of the file
by tracing a path from the root directory
through all the intermediate directories to the file
You can build the path name of the file
by tracing a path from the root directory
String all the file names in the path together
separating them with slashes
and preceding them with the name of the root directory
This path of file names is called an absolute path name
because it locates a file absolutely
tracing a path from the root directory to the file
The part of a path name following the final slash
is called a file name or just a file name
While you are logged in on a Unix system
you will always be associated with one directory or another
The directory you are associated with or are working in
is called the working directory
or the current directory
Sometimes this association is referred to in a physical sense
You are in or working in the genny directory
To access any file in the working directory
you do not need a path name, just a simple file name
To access a file in another directory, however,
you must use a path name
The PWD utility displays the path name of the working directory
Login
Alex
Password
Welcome to Unix
pwd
slash usr slash alex
The MKDIR utility automatically puts two entries in every directory you create
They are a single and double period
representing the directory itself and the parent directory
respectively
These entries are invisible because their file names begin with periods
Because MKDIR automatically places these entries in every directory
you can rely on their presence
The single period is synonymous with the path name of the working directory
and can be used in its place
The double period is synonymous with the path name of the parent of the working directory
pwd
slash usr
slash
alex
pwd
slash
usr
slash
pwd
slash
usr
slash
pwd
slash
usr
The Kill utility terminates one or more processes by sending them signals.
By default, Kill sends software termination signals, signal number 15, although an option
allows you to send a different signal.
The process must belong to the user executing Kill unless the user is the super user.
The Kill utility displays a message when it terminates a process.
The PID list contains process identification numbers of processes Kill is to terminate.
You can specify a signal number 0 through 15, preceded by a hyphen, as an option before
the PID list to cause Kill to send the signal you specify to the process.
The Kill command is built into both the C and Corn shells.
When you are using either the C or Corn shell, you can use job identifiers in place of the
PID list.
Job identifiers consist of a percent sign, followed by either a job number or a string
that uniquely identifies the job.
The built-in versions of Kill also allow you to specify signals by name rather than number.
You can use the Kill-L command to list the signal names.
When you use the Kill utility or the Kill that is built into the Corn shell, you can
terminate process number 0 with signal 9.
All processes that the current login process initiated are terminated and the operating
system logs you out.
But if you run this command while you are logged in as super user, you will bring the
a script that noisily, but cautiously, empties the working directory.
Echo, the working directory is PWD.
Echo, delete all files in PWD slash C.
Read answer.
Case, dollar sign, answer in.
Why?
Why?
Yes.
Echo, ouch, bang, splat, RM star.
Echo, we got him, boss.
Echo, files remain untouched.
ESAC, admin dash I blitz, S dot blitz.
No ID keywords.
CM7.
Error, blitz, writable blitz exists.
GE4.
Get dash E dash R2, S blitz 1 dot 1, U delta 2 dot 1.
16 lines.
Delta S blitz.
Comments?
Frivolous statements replaced with serious ones.
No ID keywords.
CM7.
1 dot 2.
3, inserted.
3 deleted.
13.
Unchanged.
While there aren't many radio stations that will allow Eunuch's poetry to be read
And I'm happy to say that this is one of them.
And I want to thank everyone out there for the encouragement and for allowing this kind
of behavior to go on.
Readings from Unix.
Music from Pink Floyd.
And good morning, New York.
It's 5.30 in the morning.
We're here at WBAI Radio.
First half hour of this special six-hour edition of Off the Hook, the program about telephones,
technology, and various other things.
We're taking phone calls, 212-279-3407.
If you have any questions or comments about high tech or hacking or anything like that,
give us a call now.
Also, we'd like to hear from you as far as pledges.
We do need to get pledges so that we can continue to bring you innovative and different programming.
So those numbers once again, 212-279-3407 to be on the air, 212-279-3400 to make a
pledge.
We'll be back with more phone calls right after this.
A banking computer went down at a computer center in Sandai, Japan,
putting banking machines out of action for more than three hours
throughout Hokkaido and five prefectures in northern Honshu.
Computer technicians had the main computer,
one of three at the Ministry of Posts and Telecommunications'
East Japan No. 2 Computing Center.
They had that one back online shortly before noon,
but postal authorities could not say what had caused the computer to fail.
A total of 1,200 post offices throughout Hokkaido
and the northern prefectures were affected,
with 1,300 automatic teller machines and cash dispensers out of action.
Another 3,000 transaction machines used by counterclerks
at 2,900 post offices were also inoperable.
According to postal bureau officials,
the automatic teller operations can be shifted to an auxiliary computer
if one of the three main computers goes down,
but this failed after Thursday's breakdown.
Counterclerks in the post offices processed transactions by hand
during the failure, the authorities said.
Until last week, postal banking services in the four northern regional bureaus
were handled by three computer centers in Sandai, Nagano, and Otaru in Hokkaido.
To improve efficiency, however,
operations were concentrated at the center in Sandai from May 6th.
And that's just one of the accidents that you'll find.
279-3407 for calls, 279-3400 for pledges.
Good morning.
Are you there?
Hello, am I on the air?
You're on the air, yes.
Okay, good, I just broadcasted my goof up to billions of people.
Oh, that's okay.
I have a question going back to the Risk Digest article.
Which one?
About California licenses.
The new California licenses with thumbprints, yes.
I was under the impression, is the thumbprint actually on the license?
It's on the license.
I haven't seen one myself.
From what I'm told, it's digitized.
And then they just run the scan out on the license?
I believe it's something like that.
I wish I had one in front of me and I would analyze it for you.
Because I remember reading the article on comp.risks,
but I didn't realize that they actually put that on the license.
I just wanted some clarification on that.
I'm reading it here.
It says here, my color picture was digitized into an IBM computer,
as was my thumbprint and my signature.
And the magnetic stripe on the back has three tracks,
so I imagine it was for those three items.
Okay, thanks.
I was just kind of curious about that.
Okay, thanks for calling.
Thank you.
Bye.
Good evening.
Morning.
Good evening.
Whatever it is.
Good morning, good evening, whatever.
You were talking about the phone ID only being in the local area code.
Right.
I had an experience just yesterday.
I ordered something from a place in New Hampshire
and started talking to him and he said,
oh, you're Mr. So-and-so, and he gave me my name.
Really?
And I said, oh, how did you know that?
And he said, oh, we have our phone hooked up to the computer,
so it takes the ID and runs it into our computer
and brings up your records on the screen.
You know, American Express tried that a couple of years ago
and they met with very, very adamant resistance to it and they stopped.
Can you tell us the name of that company?
That was PC Connections.
PC Connections.
One of the big PC mail order places.
Now, did you have previous dealings with them?
Did they take it from you?
Oh, yeah, they had all my records and everything was just, you know.
He said, oh, ship it to this address, and I said, yeah, that's right.
But it sounds like the ID goes more than just locally.
Well, that's a different kind of ID.
Let me first of all ask you, you just called that 800 number, right,
and that's all you did, and you started talking,
he didn't give you a name, he didn't give you an address or anything,
and they told you who you were.
That's right.
Okay, that's not the same thing as caller ID, by the way.
That's ANI, automatic number identification,
which is passed on to most 800 numbers now.
Yeah, he said we got it from the telephone number.
Right, and a lot of 800 numbers now give that information
or get that information immediately as soon as you call them.
Well, that means it must be coded on your phone when you make the dial out.
Well, what it's doing is the phone company is passing along that information.
Yes, it is getting that information.
It has to be embedded someplace.
It's not the caller ID kind of passing of the information, but it's the same effect.
So for all intents and purposes, it is the same, I suppose.
Well, it took me by surprise.
I have a couple of comments on Prodigy on what you were talking about, too.
What's that?
It's getting to be very interesting on some of the bulletin boards.
The people who leave messages actually start their message with a little plea to the sensor.
Sensor, please don't knock this message off because I'm not related to the company I'm talking about.
They're a product of it.
That's incredible.
And people are actually begging them not to knock their messages off.
Now, you've used Prodigy, I assume.
Yeah, I use it all the time for financial stuff.
Have you ever examined that file that's on your computer?
That was the other thing I wanted to talk to you about.
I got a beta test copy of a utility they just developed to clean up exactly what you were talking about.
And I thought it was rather superfluous to make a utility for that.
But some of the things you were saying, now I have second thoughts.
Maybe it's not a good idea to have some of your old files kicking around inside the stage file.
You see, you don't really have a choice.
You can delete all of your files, but they're still there on the disk.
That's right.
All it does is change the first character in the directory.
Exactly.
Prodigy will probably, I guess, make this utility available in the very near future.
And what it does is it actually goes in, finds every byte that they are not using, and changes it to a zero on the disk.
Now, that's good and all fine and well, but the fact of the matter is that the whole computer system is designed in such a way that that data remains there.
It remains there until it's written over by another file.
That's the way it's always existed.
But people don't know this.
People aren't aware of it.
That's what I'm saying.
They've worked up a way where they give you a utility which you run on your disk.
And it writes on your disk a zero in all of those unused spaces in the stage.
Right.
And they're doing that because of all the bad publicity they've gotten as a result.
By the way, also, if you're running a faster computer, that file takes 980K of your hard disk.
So I've heard.
So I've heard.
An incredible amount of space.
100K is like for an 8088 PC or something.
That's a lot of data hidden in there, a lot of data that they could read and access.
I think it's always a bad idea to have somebody accessing your computer that you don't know who they are.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, apparently they are basically accessing it because it contains all the...
I'm pretty sure it contains all the commercials that show up at the bottom of the screen.
They're all embedded in that file.
And all it does is it puts a pointer to the next one to show up.
And it also keeps a lot of your, like you said, your menus and the highlight screen when you sign on.
That stuff is all in that stage file.
It's a scary thing.
I'm not blaming Prodigy here.
I'm not saying that they're out to...
UNCEPT is very efficient.
Yeah.
And it's probably a good idea, but it points to some deficiencies in the whole design of computer systems
where data is just left hanging around and considered thrown out but not gone.
I mean, if you sell your computer to somebody, right?
You sell your old computer.
Think of what they can do.
And you don't wipe out the disk with Wipedisk.
Think of what you can do.
Yeah.
If you don't wipe out your hard disk, if you just sell that computer, you might as well have left all of your files there,
all of your personal correspondences, whatever else you've used it for.
Like selling your house and leaving the disk in the living room.
That's right.
And I hope that there's government surplus computers for sale soon.
Oh, there's been some scandals from GAO.
I've heard of scandals.
Yes, I've heard of some scandals.
Where they released apparently FBI computers and compromised the identification of some of the agents.
So it goes to show that we're not quite there yet.
Well, the human mind doesn't think of everything the first time around.
No, it certainly doesn't.
But human ingenuity is...
Okay.
Well, I wanted to fill you in on some of those technical things.
Okay.
And by the way, your show is also one of my favorites.
Well, I'm happy to hear that.
I can't honestly say THE favorite because I've got several.
And they're all, like, equal.
Uh-huh.
Well, it's good that I'm up there somewhere.
Yeah, definitely.
Okay, thanks for calling.
Okay, bye.
An off-the-hook is usually heard every other Wednesday night from 9 to 10 o'clock.
And, yeah, we're here at this godforsaken time right now from 12 to 6 in the morning on this Thursday morning.
We'll be back again next...
Not this Wednesday coming up, but the Wednesday after that from 9 to 10.
212-279-3400 is the number to call to make a pledge.
And we sure would like to see some pledges come in here.
We've gone over quite a lot of stuff tonight with Steve Jackson popping in and saying a few things,
Bill Squire over in Amsterdam talking about the BART scandal.
We had all kinds of bits of information, calls, even some Unix poetry.
We've had everything tonight.
We need to hear from people out there to make sure that we're reaching you
and that you care enough about WBAI to support this station and keep it strong, keep it going.
212-279-3400.
Everybody that calls in in the next 16 minutes, which is all the time we have left,
will receive a free copy of 2600 Magazine with their pledge, whatever that pledge might be.
I don't know what it is. If it's $5, $10, $500, $1,000, who knows?
Whatever it is that you can afford to pledge to this radio station, it all adds up.
It all goes to the total and it all means something to us.
Each and every one of those callers, each and every one of those people who pledge money
will receive that free copy.
You'll also receive the WBAI folio for 12 months.
So that's essential to follow what goes on in this radio station.
I don't know how you would have known that off the hook was on at midnight to 6 this morning
if you did not have a folio.
212-279-3400.
We have no calls on the line and probably a sleeping tally person inside.
So let's wake them up. Let's get the day off to a good start.
Remember, we do take Visa and MasterCard to make things easy.
We have one call on the line. Hopefully that's somebody that's going to pledge something to us.
Okay, two callers on the line.
Hey, there's people out there. Okay.
The city is waking up. The whole tri-state area is waking up.
We need to hear from you.
We need to know that you're out there and that you care about this radio station
because we care about our listeners.
We care about what we talk about on the radio.
We want to bring you alternatives.
We want to bring you breaking information.
We want to tell you what's happening.
The high-tech world is something that is going through a revolution right now.
It's going through a very, very precarious state where things like freedom of speech are up in doubt.
We don't know what the future of freedom of speech is in the electronic world.
But we do know that we can focus on it here on WBAI.
We can talk about it.
We can be the movers and shakers of the industry and of various publications and things like that.
We can get the word out.
But you need to have a media outlet to do that.
And, of course, if you listen to the commercial radio stations, you'll know that they just don't get it.
They just don't focus upon the things that bring you to WBAI.
That's why you're listening now because this is something different, something unique.
And we pay a price for that, obviously.
We cannot have commercials and have this kind of programming.
It's a good tradeoff, I think, because if we had commercials, obviously, a lot of what you hear would be impossible.
There's no way we could have the freedom of speech that we have on the radio now
and also have to accept sponsorships from various companies, corporations, government institutions, or whatever else.
So we're just a bunch of people that are very sincere.
We care a lot about what we do, and we don't get paid for it.
So your call, your pledge of support to WBAI means that we can keep going without having to compromise our standards,
without having to take programs off the air because they don't meet a certain criterion.
Hopefully, things will never get to that stage here at WBAI, but we've gotten this far with your help,
and we need to keep going also with your help.
212-279-3400. Please make that pledge now.
Start the day off on a good note and help bring this program up in dollar amount.
We've gotten a couple of pledges in the last half hour or so, so let's get a flurry more because we've only got about...
Oh boy, we only have 12 minutes left. 12 minutes left.
We've been on for six hours off the hook, the longest off the hook ever.
Longest program about telecommunications and computer hackers and technology.
Maybe it means something. Maybe it means that people are waking up and that they want to hear more about this.
Well, nothing can send that message stronger than a lot of calls.
A lot of calls now in the last 12 minutes that we have.
279-3400, area code 212. Make that pledge. Show your support. Take a stand.
Good morning. Is anybody there?
You're not sad when callers fall asleep.
Oh, wow. That phone was ringing for a good half hour or two.
Good morning.
I wanted to ask you what you think about if a bleaching, ugly, darker skinned tumor was beautifully porcelain colored, like Jodie Foster.
Well, you know, I guess it's that time of morning, you know.
I mean, I don't know what brings them out at this particular time of day, but...
212-279-3407 is our telephone number.
And that's to be on the air.
212-279-3400 to make a pledge.
And we do want to hear from people who have pledges to send our way.
There are lots of things going on out there.
Lots of scary things. Lots of exciting things.
There's nothing bad about high technology.
There's nothing bad about computers or telephones.
But put in the wrong hands and use for the wrong purposes.
There can be a lot wrong.
There can be a lot of scary things, scary effects.
What you'll hear in the media, the mainstream media, is computer hackers are the biggest threat.
The biggest threat to freedom and the biggest threat to you.
And I just do not think that is so.
I think that is a cover-up for the things that are really wrong with the structure of technology.
Computer hackers are the people that find holes, find bugs, and find wide-open operating systems.
And yes, occasionally they find data about you that's just lying out there, waiting for anybody to come along and read it.
Now, does that make them the threat or does that make ineptitude the threat?
212-279-3407, give us a call for on-air.
212-279-3400, give us a call for a pledge.
Good morning.
Oh, wow.
I always dreamed about getting callers like this.
There's nothing but callers like this now. Wow.
I guess everybody's busy taking a shower or something. I don't know.
It's that time of day for that.
Well, WBAI's membership drive is running until the 25th.
And we need volunteers to staff the phones days, nights, and weekends.
So give us a call during business hours at, yes, yet another number, 212-279-0707, if you want to sign up for a shift.
It's 212-279-0707.
All right. Again, I plead to give us a call at 212-279-3400.
We've been with you now since 12 midnight, and now it's just about 6 o'clock in the morning.
It's been a long night. It's been an educational night.
We've gone over a lot of details, a lot of topics, and learned a lot, I think, about the way phone companies, computer systems, and people in general operate.
It's a fun place to play around, this high-tech playground of ours.
It's something that's going to get more and more interesting as the years go on.
But we can only benefit from that if we partake in the knowledge, if we share the knowledge, if we don't keep things to ourselves.
So if you learn of something interesting, send it in.
Send it in to Off The Hook, Care of WBAI, 505 8th Avenue, New York, New York, 10018.
Come by the next 2600 meeting, which will be the first Friday of June.
That's at the City Corps Center, 5 p.m. to 8 p.m.
And that's in the atrium area by the pay phones, where else?
And the June meeting is my favorite, because that's when the sun sets down every block of Manhattan.
You know that time of year where the sun sets parallel to the streets?
You look down every street to the west, and the sun is there.
It's only one month of the year that happens.
And New York is the only city I know where that happens.
And that's kind of a special 2600 meeting for us.
So, yeah, we'll be there this, well, not this Friday.
I guess it's the next Friday, whatever the first Friday of the month is, we'll be at City Corps Center from 5 p.m. to 8 p.m.
And if you have particular questions or bits of information you'd like to share, bring it on by there.
Again, our phone number is 212-279-3400.
We want to thank everybody who has called in during this six hours, although I'm sure quite a few of them are sleeping now.
We want to thank them anyway.
We want to thank those of you who will call, because we know you will.
We know there's some point where people realize what the right thing to do is.
And we hope you realize that soon, because we only have about five minutes left.
212-279-3400, please make that call, make that pledge.
Help BAI move a little further into the 90s.
This is Emanuel Goldstein. I've been with you for quite some time now.
And I will be back two weeks from last night, I guess.
In two weeks, Wednesday night from 9 to 10.
And that's the normal time period for Off The Hook, the program about technology, high tech, and the fun and abuses that we have with it.
Please, let's get some calls.
212-279-3400.
Again, thanks to everybody.
And sorry if I sound tired, but I am tired.
I've been on for six hours straight, and it's quite a lot of fun.
And I'm glad we had lots of people calling up asking questions and relaying experiences.
I encourage you to keep doing that, whether you're on bulletin boards, whether you're on the telephone, whether you're writing in to us.
Please remember to keep your eyes open and keep asking questions.
This is WBAI, New York.
Hi, this is Armand DeMille, host of The Positive Mind, bringing you ideas, concepts, and guests
to help you lead a more positively-minded life.
I'm with you on alternate Wednesdays at 1.30 p.m. here only on listener-supported WBAI.
This is Jimmy Carter.
The American public can never get enough accurate, in-depth reporting about the world around
us.
Fine arts programming enriches the quality of our lives.
It's for these reasons that I urge you to support this radio station.
Its programming is indeed a public service.
And like any public service, it requires public support.
That means you and me.
It's our dollars that keep this radio station on the air.
So please make a pledge.
Take responsibility for this valuable and truly unique radio station.
She's been jailed, tortured, placed under house arrest, beaten, sexually molested by
white jailers.
Her home has been bombed on at least seven occasions.
And now one single white male judge has sentenced Winnie Mandela to six years in prison.
Why?
We want to count on you that if things go wrong on that negotiation table, we know you
will be there with us when we go back to the bush and fight the white man.
What is really behind the Winnie Mandela affair?
Could this be a South Africa-style COINTELPRO operation?
This question, plus in-depth discussions on the status of health care, democratic rights,
economics, intellectuals, and artists in the Pan-African world, will be the focus of a
two-day conference on Pan-Africanism, Friday and Saturday, May 24th and 25th, at the Harriet
Tubman School on 127th Street off Adam Clayton Powell Boulevard in Harlem.
Hear over 35 speakers, including John Henry Clark, Len Jeffries, Rashida Ishmael Abubakar,
Horace Campbell, Bernard Magobany, and others.
Conference starting 6 p.m. on Friday and continuing on Saturday, the 25th at 11 a.m.
at the Harriet Tubman School on 127th Street in Harlem.
For information, call 212-714-9262.
This has been a WBAI Public Service Announcement on behalf of the African and Caribbean Resource
Center.
And this is indeed WBAI Radio, 99.5 FM in New York at 6.02 in the morning, 72 beautiful
cool degrees, going up to the 80s today and clear.
So it is a beautiful day out there.
I'm Santiago Nieves, and it is a pleasure for me to be with you this Thursday and every
Thursday morning.
We're going to have a short version of the Thursday morning show today.
We're just going to go up to 8 o'clock, as we have an extended version of Undercurrent,
which will go till 9 o'clock this morning, and then, of course, Delphine Blue will come
in after that.
We're going to go back to our regular 6 a.m. to 9.30 slot next Thursday.
So listen in then.
Again, Thursday morning show, 6.03 in the morning.
This is WBAI 99.5 FM.
We have a great show coming up.
Let's start off with a little Honey.
I love you, honey.
Bigger than the sky.
Bigger than the sky.
Bigger than the sky.