Off The Hook - 1991-05-29

[00:19.110 --> 00:20.090]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's nine o'clock.
[00:20.090 --> 00:22.190]  [SPEAKER_01]: You're listening to WBAI New York.
[00:22.410 --> 00:24.250]  [SPEAKER_01]: Time for Off the Hook.
[00:31.290 --> 00:33.290]  [SPEAKER_04]: The telephone keeps ringing.
[00:33.750 --> 00:35.830]  [SPEAKER_04]: So I ripped it off the wall.
[00:36.710 --> 00:38.810]  [SPEAKER_04]: I cut myself while shaving.
[00:39.410 --> 00:41.330]  [SPEAKER_04]: Now I can't make a call.
[00:42.130 --> 00:44.150]  [SPEAKER_04]: It couldn't get much worse.
[00:46.470 --> 00:47.630]  [SPEAKER_04]: Good bum-diddly-bum.
[00:47.790 --> 00:48.910]  [SPEAKER_04]: But the best is better.
[00:49.490 --> 00:49.690]  [SPEAKER_04]: Worst.
[00:50.090 --> 00:52.070]  [SPEAKER_04]: I hope that's understood.
[00:52.350 --> 00:53.070]  [SPEAKER_04]: Bum-diddly-bum.
[01:22.040 --> 01:28.420]  [SPEAKER_01]: And tonight on Off the Hook, the theme is privacy and surveillance.
[01:30.420 --> 01:34.480]  [SPEAKER_01]: Do you ever get the feeling that you're being watched?
[01:34.780 --> 01:36.900]  [SPEAKER_01]: You're every movement being scrutinized?
[01:37.780 --> 01:41.820]  [SPEAKER_01]: Every change in behavior carefully noted?
[01:43.680 --> 01:45.120]  [SPEAKER_01]: Have you ever felt that way?
[01:46.060 --> 01:49.640]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, it would be a good idea to get used to it.
[02:03.050 --> 02:05.910]  [SPEAKER_02]: Don't start the talking.
[02:06.730 --> 02:09.970]  [SPEAKER_02]: I could talk all night.
[02:10.510 --> 02:13.210]  [SPEAKER_02]: My mind was sleepwalking.
[02:13.490 --> 02:16.690]  [SPEAKER_02]: While I'm putting the world to write.
[02:16.910 --> 02:19.330]  [SPEAKER_02]: Call career as information.
[02:20.030 --> 02:22.810]  [SPEAKER_02]: Have you got yourself an occupation?
[02:22.810 --> 02:24.390]  [SPEAKER_02]: All of a zombie.
[02:24.950 --> 02:26.110]  [SPEAKER_02]: All of a zombie is here to stay.
[02:26.750 --> 02:29.570]  [SPEAKER_02]: All of a zombie are on their way.
[02:30.370 --> 02:33.930]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I would rather be anywhere else.
[02:42.690 --> 02:43.090]  But...
[03:02.110 --> 03:06.250]  [SPEAKER_02]: All of a zombie is here to stay.
[03:06.330 --> 03:07.610]  [SPEAKER_02]: All of a zombie is here to stay.
[03:07.610 --> 03:09.610]  [SPEAKER_02]: All of a zombie are on their way.
[03:10.330 --> 03:13.070]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I would rather be anywhere else.
[03:13.070 --> 03:13.070]  There's one zombie is here to stay.
[03:13.070 --> 03:13.070]  I will be nowhere
[03:22.450 --> 03:23.150]  else.
[03:23.150 --> 03:23.310]  All of a zombie are on their way.
[03:23.330 --> 03:26.190]  [SPEAKER_02]: Hong Kong is up for grabs.
[03:26.990 --> 03:29.490]  [SPEAKER_02]: London is full of grabs.
[03:30.270 --> 03:32.570]  [SPEAKER_02]: We could be in Palestine.
[03:33.490 --> 03:39.890]  [SPEAKER_02]: Overrun by the Chinese land with the fires from the Mersey and the Thames in the Tide.
[03:41.610 --> 03:44.490]  [SPEAKER_02]: But there's not danger.
[03:45.150 --> 03:48.690]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's a professional career.
[03:49.150 --> 03:51.370]  [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, it could be arranged.
[03:51.370 --> 03:55.310]  [SPEAKER_02]: We're just the waiting, Mr. Churchill's here.
[03:55.450 --> 04:02.310]  [SPEAKER_02]: If you're out of luck or out of work, we could send you to Joe Hanna's Bank.
[04:04.930 --> 04:07.850]  [SPEAKER_02]: Oliver's Army is here to stay.
[04:08.370 --> 04:11.330]  [SPEAKER_02]: Oliver's Army are on their way.
[04:11.950 --> 04:15.550]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I would rather be anywhere else.
[04:42.080 --> 04:45.960]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's not a question of wanting to be anywhere else but here.
[04:45.960 --> 04:50.440]  [SPEAKER_01]: But it's a question of being awake while you are here.
[04:51.720 --> 04:52.790]  [SPEAKER_01]: There's so much happening.
[04:52.980 --> 04:55.860]  [SPEAKER_01]: There's so many changing developments going on in the world of technology.
[04:56.400 --> 05:02.650]  [SPEAKER_01]: You just have to keep awake every day or you're going to fall so far behind, you won't ever be able to catch up.
[05:03.080 --> 05:03.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: Good evening.
[05:03.720 --> 05:04.480]  [SPEAKER_01]: This is Off the Hook.
[05:04.740 --> 05:07.360]  [SPEAKER_01]: Emmanuel Goldstein with you up until 10 o'clock.
[05:07.460 --> 05:08.080]  [SPEAKER_01]: And some good news.
[05:08.170 --> 05:08.860]  [SPEAKER_01]: First, the good news.
[05:08.960 --> 05:11.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: Let's get that out of the way for you Off the Hook fans.
[05:11.340 --> 05:14.820]  [SPEAKER_01]: We are now on every week at this time, at least over the summer.
[05:15.820 --> 05:21.820]  [SPEAKER_01]: And that's real good news because I feel at last we'll be able to develop some consistency.
[05:22.140 --> 05:26.460]  [SPEAKER_01]: Which is so important when you're dealing with a changing world such as ours.
[05:27.220 --> 05:29.400]  [SPEAKER_01]: And things certainly are changing.
[05:29.540 --> 05:32.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: They're changing a lot faster than many of us want them to.
[05:33.620 --> 05:34.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: Privacy.
[05:34.500 --> 05:35.040]  [SPEAKER_01]: Privacy.
[05:35.040 --> 05:38.240]  [SPEAKER_01]: Privacy issues are just so frighteningly volatile.
[05:38.580 --> 05:40.660]  [SPEAKER_01]: So fragile.
[05:41.880 --> 05:45.670]  [SPEAKER_01]: Some people are calling it the death of privacy.
[05:46.200 --> 05:51.640]  [SPEAKER_01]: We're going to take a look at some articles from the Risks Digest.
[05:51.820 --> 05:54.840]  [SPEAKER_01]: The electronic newsletter that's available over the Internet.
[05:54.840 --> 06:02.720]  [SPEAKER_01]: And we do this as a public service to those of you that don't have access to computer networks such as the Internet.
[06:02.960 --> 06:05.900]  [SPEAKER_01]: And we'll be talking a little bit more about the Internet in the moments ahead.
[06:06.860 --> 06:09.400]  [SPEAKER_01]: This is an article from Richard Johnson.
[06:11.580 --> 06:19.700]  [SPEAKER_01]: Talking about some of the problems associated with automated systems that detail specific information about our personal and financial lives.
[06:19.700 --> 06:32.600]  [SPEAKER_01]: To summarize, one, undesired access to data, undesired manipulation of data, undesired offerings of data, and undesired large-scale changes of public opinion.
[06:33.460 --> 06:36.310]  [SPEAKER_01]: It seems this is just the tip of the iceberg, though.
[06:37.040 --> 06:49.460]  [SPEAKER_01]: Recently released footage from the Persian Gulf conflict show a sophisticated airborne battle management system capable of spotting movement, location, and identification of literally everything within several hundred miles.
[06:50.360 --> 06:56.140]  [SPEAKER_01]: Several states are experimenting with barcodes for vehicle location, speed detection, and identification.
[06:56.790 --> 07:04.660]  [SPEAKER_01]: While officially not for criminal investigation purposes, I doubt most anyone would object to a search of the records to locate the perpetrator.
[07:05.060 --> 07:07.790]  [SPEAKER_01]: I would say, a felony hit and run.
[07:08.600 --> 07:17.900]  [SPEAKER_01]: Birth, death, marriage, licenses, education, service, and major property occasions are all publicly recorded and often required.
[07:18.620 --> 07:22.550]  [SPEAKER_01]: Our employers often know where to find us, even when we are not at work.
[07:22.860 --> 07:25.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: Our neighbors often know the roads we use to drive to work.
[07:25.700 --> 07:29.740]  [SPEAKER_01]: Our grocers often know the days we get paid and the times we like to shop.
[07:29.740 --> 07:37.740]  [SPEAKER_01]: The problem is not just technology, the problem is how much an individual is willing to waive control of information about her or himself.
[07:38.640 --> 07:47.670]  [SPEAKER_01]: If we don't actively guard our privacy, we shall surely fall prey to those who would profit from that information, perhaps at our expense.
[07:52.570 --> 07:56.230]  [SPEAKER_01]: And this is an article from Robert Allen, also on the Risks Digest.
[07:56.990 --> 08:02.470]  [SPEAKER_01]: To my mind, there is a more serious problem responsible for our loss of privacy, not to mention other rights.
[08:02.930 --> 08:05.170]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's the attitudes towards convenience.
[08:06.490 --> 08:15.450]  [SPEAKER_01]: Every time you use one of the electronic fund transfer devices, at a store, gas station, etc., you're giving up significant portions of your privacy.
[08:16.370 --> 08:20.010]  [SPEAKER_01]: By buying gas this way, someone can closely figure your driving habits.
[08:20.570 --> 08:22.250]  [SPEAKER_01]: Did you go somewhere this weekend?
[08:22.710 --> 08:23.690]  [SPEAKER_01]: Where did you go?
[08:24.710 --> 08:28.570]  [SPEAKER_01]: Where did you use electronic fund transfer to buy gas?
[08:28.750 --> 08:30.250]  [SPEAKER_01]: What kind of mileage did you get?
[08:30.610 --> 08:35.030]  [SPEAKER_01]: Is it possible you took a side trip where you used gas but didn't buy any until later?
[08:35.670 --> 08:37.170]  [SPEAKER_01]: What kind of food do you buy?
[08:37.630 --> 08:40.770]  [SPEAKER_01]: How much do you normally spend on food versus getting cash back?
[08:41.650 --> 08:44.810]  [SPEAKER_01]: Why do you get so much cash back from a grocery store instead of a bank?
[08:45.450 --> 08:46.970]  [SPEAKER_01]: Are you trying to hide something?
[08:48.110 --> 08:50.770]  [SPEAKER_01]: We are well on our way to a cashless society.
[08:51.210 --> 08:54.730]  [SPEAKER_01]: I predict that it will eventually be illegal to own cash.
[08:55.110 --> 09:00.830]  [SPEAKER_01]: And certainly, whenever a drug dealer is busted today, you hear all about the several thousand dollars in cash found.
[09:01.330 --> 09:04.990]  [SPEAKER_01]: Heck, I know people who keep that much at home, and they are definitely not drug dealers.
[09:05.910 --> 09:14.430]  [SPEAKER_01]: Once we become cashless, operating on credits, the only people with any true freedom will be the hackers who are able to crack the systems and pilfer.
[09:14.430 --> 09:19.730]  [SPEAKER_01]: However, you all and I will be at the mercy of both the hackers and the government.
[09:20.290 --> 09:30.370]  [SPEAKER_01]: By that time, it will be impossible to break the sequence since literally every purchase you make, from birth control to books, to how much you give to your church, will be tracked.
[09:30.370 --> 09:39.850]  [SPEAKER_01]: And you will be at the mercy of any future laws passed, such as, say, anti-birth control, anti-gun, anti-drug, anti-pornography, etc.
[09:39.850 --> 09:43.610]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's already happening today, and it will only get worse.
[09:44.450 --> 09:48.590]  [SPEAKER_01]: That article from Robert Allen on the Risk Digest.
[09:48.750 --> 09:55.230]  [SPEAKER_01]: If you are currently on the Internet, if you have access to it, and if you don't know what I'm talking about, then you obviously don't have access to it.
[09:55.490 --> 10:01.230]  [SPEAKER_01]: If you do, however, it can be addressed by reading news from comp.risks.
[10:02.610 --> 10:05.330]  [SPEAKER_01]: C-O-M-P dot R-I-S-K-S.
[10:05.330 --> 10:14.430]  [SPEAKER_01]: Too bad it doesn't come out on paper, because it's a compilation of opinions from people that do a lot of thinking about this kind of thing.
[10:16.290 --> 10:22.650]  [SPEAKER_01]: A response to the article I just read, this one comes from Roger Crewe, over in Stanford.
[10:23.490 --> 10:28.540]  [SPEAKER_01]: It is already the case, under the RICO laws, that large amounts of cash can simply be confiscated.
[10:29.130 --> 10:30.430]  [SPEAKER_01]: No warrant is necessary.
[10:30.750 --> 10:39.870]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not sure what the necessary preconditions are, but evidently the standard road stop to check for license and registration, together with some notion of probable cause, suffices.
[10:40.350 --> 10:42.810]  [SPEAKER_01]: Police in South Africa... I'm sorry, South Florida.
[10:43.090 --> 10:44.610]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, that's a Freudian slip.
[10:44.930 --> 10:49.310]  [SPEAKER_01]: Police in South Florida are using this against suspected drug runners with devastating effect.
[10:50.350 --> 11:00.810]  [SPEAKER_01]: To get the money back, even if no charges are ever filed, one has to bring a civil suit against the police department in question and demonstrate that the money was not illegally obtained.
[11:00.810 --> 11:04.470]  [SPEAKER_01]: And we all know the Supreme Court has upheld RICO.
[11:06.950 --> 11:27.450]  [SPEAKER_01]: Another response to that article from Mark Eichen over at MIT, I stumbled across a television show recently on some cable channel about the evils of the cashless society and how it will become impossible to survive without being part of the system and thus being tracked down by the system.
[11:27.910 --> 11:40.510]  [SPEAKER_01]: It was titled The Number of the Beast, an alternated between detailed explanations of the data flow and electronic funds system used now and biblical quotes regarding being marked with the number of the beast.
[11:40.810 --> 11:46.590]  [SPEAKER_01]: Being marked with the number was supposed to be a metaphor for being identified in the electronic funds system.
[11:48.010 --> 12:00.210]  [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, I have to wonder if perhaps those programs aren't produced by the people that want the cashless society to succeed.
[12:00.330 --> 12:05.150]  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, who is going to, in their right mind, believe that this has got anything to do with Satan?
[12:05.870 --> 12:07.950]  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, come on, people, really.
[12:08.410 --> 12:10.190]  [SPEAKER_01]: This is insanity.
[12:11.770 --> 12:13.870]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, here's another perspective on it all.
[12:13.970 --> 12:20.230]  [SPEAKER_01]: This person is coming out of the NSA, dare I say it, the National Security Agency.
[12:21.270 --> 12:23.290]  [SPEAKER_01]: And, at least, that's the account he's using.
[12:23.410 --> 12:25.710]  [SPEAKER_01]: I can recognize the computer address here.
[12:25.930 --> 12:27.790]  [SPEAKER_01]: His name is WH Murray.
[12:29.850 --> 12:32.650]  [SPEAKER_01]: And a lot of people work for the NSA, so that's not too surprising.
[12:32.930 --> 12:34.790]  [SPEAKER_01]: There's probably a couple in your neighborhood.
[12:35.210 --> 12:40.010]  [SPEAKER_01]: National Security Agency, or no such agency, as some people might still refer to it as.
[12:40.990 --> 12:42.790]  [SPEAKER_01]: I was around 30 years ago.
[12:43.030 --> 12:44.530]  [SPEAKER_01]: I remember what privacy meant.
[12:44.830 --> 12:49.750]  [SPEAKER_01]: I remember how it was compromised and manipulated for the purpose of achieving social conformity.
[12:50.170 --> 12:57.550]  [SPEAKER_01]: I remember women who lived alone being ostracized from the church because they might be divorced, and they certainly were not married.
[12:58.070 --> 13:05.750]  [SPEAKER_01]: I remember talking about unmarried men on the assumption that they were homosexual, and therefore fair game for gossip, if not violence.
[13:06.430 --> 13:12.970]  [SPEAKER_01]: The mechanism was gossip, and the idea was that if one did not conform, that was how they would be talked about.
[13:13.750 --> 13:20.410]  [SPEAKER_01]: I remember that it was considered perfectly proper to ask a job applicant what church they belonged to and what political party.
[13:20.790 --> 13:33.310]  [SPEAKER_01]: It was not that anyone seriously believed that churchgoers were any more reliable than non-churchgoers, only that they were subject to social pressure to conform and excommunication if merely accused of non-conformity.
[13:34.570 --> 13:44.350]  [SPEAKER_01]: I remember the activities of the FBI, the files collected by the director, the political and economic pressure to identify one's associates as communists.
[13:45.150 --> 13:49.530]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now we call it McCarthyism, but the idea was ideological conformity.
[13:50.190 --> 13:57.570]  [SPEAKER_01]: I remember the gossip about whether such and such a movie star was queer, whether that one had Negro blood, or this one drank.
[13:58.670 --> 14:05.690]  [SPEAKER_01]: John Garfield never made another film after being associated with communists, and Ingrid Bergman could not work in this country after her divorce.
[14:06.750 --> 14:15.670]  [SPEAKER_01]: Do not hold up to me as an ideal the privacy of thirty years ago, that these things were only talked about over the back fence, and never in the papers, only made it worse.
[14:16.250 --> 14:19.490]  [SPEAKER_01]: The problem may not have been any worse then, but it was certainly no better.
[14:20.330 --> 14:21.770]  [SPEAKER_01]: Memory plays funny tricks.
[14:25.060 --> 14:26.960]  [SPEAKER_01]: No one cares about divorce anymore.
[14:28.020 --> 14:31.360]  [SPEAKER_01]: Political ideology is out of favor everywhere except on college campuses.
[14:32.080 --> 14:34.660]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now it's worse to be a racist than to be of mixed race.
[14:35.260 --> 14:42.460]  [SPEAKER_01]: Today the assumption is that everyone has been in therapy, but just twenty-five years ago it was a disqualifying defect in a vice presidential candidate.
[14:43.600 --> 14:46.900]  [SPEAKER_01]: Actually, I believe that was less than twenty-five years ago, if he's talking about Thomas Eagleton.
[14:48.260 --> 14:52.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: When I was growing up, the suspicion of Jewish heritage was enough to keep you out of the country club.
[14:54.040 --> 14:57.060]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, membership in the club is enough to keep you out of office.
[14:58.160 --> 15:04.140]  [SPEAKER_01]: Today the issues are communicable diseases, high-risk behavior, child abuse, sexism, seduction, abortion, and drug use.
[15:04.140 --> 15:07.500]  [SPEAKER_01]: But the intent is still conformity.
[15:08.540 --> 15:13.680]  [SPEAKER_01]: Robert Bork was denied a seat on the Supreme Court for opinions that would have recommended him thirty years ago.
[15:14.420 --> 15:19.560]  [SPEAKER_01]: The fact is that there has always and everywhere been a battle between freedom and information.
[15:20.360 --> 15:27.960]  [SPEAKER_01]: Every society and every age has used what information it had about its members in an attempt to control behavior.
[15:30.000 --> 15:33.640]  [SPEAKER_01]: In France, the police know who sleeps in every bed every night.
[15:34.760 --> 15:37.240]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now they use computers, but they have always known.
[15:38.040 --> 15:40.960]  [SPEAKER_01]: In China, the party knows who comes and who goes.
[15:41.420 --> 15:43.880]  [SPEAKER_01]: They do not use computers, but they certainly know.
[15:45.060 --> 15:46.940]  [SPEAKER_01]: We do not gather at the well anymore.
[15:46.940 --> 15:49.740]  [SPEAKER_01]: We go to the mall, rather than the general store.
[15:49.960 --> 15:51.920]  [SPEAKER_01]: We go to McDonald's, rather than the diner.
[15:51.920 --> 16:00.200]  [SPEAKER_01]: In our age, the communities are so large that it takes computers to keep up with everyone, but the intent and the damage are no different.
[16:01.100 --> 16:03.140]  [SPEAKER_01]: The good old days never were that good.
[16:03.640 --> 16:06.080]  [SPEAKER_01]: The price of freedom is still eternal vigilance.
[16:07.060 --> 16:08.540]  [SPEAKER_01]: Technology does not govern.
[16:08.900 --> 16:09.640]  [SPEAKER_01]: We do.
[16:12.000 --> 16:19.880]  [SPEAKER_01]: And that article from William Hugh Murray of New Canaan, Connecticut, from the Risks Digest on the Internet.
[16:20.480 --> 16:34.460]  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I have to go a step further than that, because when you say that it's similar to what it was in the past, well, take a look at the tremendous technological advances there have been.
[16:34.460 --> 16:47.480]  [SPEAKER_01]: We now have the ability to track people in all kinds of different ways, rather by video camera, by telephone call, by credit card purchase, by gasoline card purchase, whatever.
[16:47.500 --> 16:55.380]  [SPEAKER_01]: We have a way of tracking people, and it's developing more and more, becoming more and more integrated with every passing year.
[16:55.720 --> 17:01.220]  [SPEAKER_01]: So the same attitude is not the same.
[17:01.340 --> 17:03.760]  [SPEAKER_01]: The same attitude becomes much, much worse.
[17:04.860 --> 17:09.080]  [SPEAKER_01]: Imagine the tools of today in the hands of a Hitler.
[17:10.480 --> 17:11.040]  [SPEAKER_01]: Imagine.
[17:11.280 --> 17:12.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: Imagine what could have been done.
[17:14.340 --> 17:26.260]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's why we have to be so careful, so incredibly careful as to what we agree to and where we're going.
[17:28.300 --> 17:31.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: Here's an article somebody sent in to Off the Hook.
[17:32.340 --> 17:40.460]  [SPEAKER_01]: And it's one that I was aware of what was going on, but I missed the actual article from the New York Times on April 17th.
[17:41.500 --> 17:45.220]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's called Move on Unscrambling of Messages is Assailed.
[17:46.260 --> 18:01.440]  [SPEAKER_01]: A measure tucked inside a recently proposed Senate bill calls on telephone and computer companies to give the government the means to unscramble private electronic messages and telephone conversations that have been encrypted to ensure privacy.
[18:02.620 --> 18:10.640]  [SPEAKER_01]: The provision is defended as a way to prevent the concealment of illegal activity, but it has alarmed business executives and civil libertarians.
[18:11.320 --> 18:16.320]  [SPEAKER_01]: They're becoming very alarmed these days, and it's something that we should not ignore.
[18:17.360 --> 18:27.640]  [SPEAKER_01]: Sophisticated new equipment that can encrypt voice and data and conceal it from even the most powerful government computers is now cheap enough to be sold for use in personal computers or telephones.
[18:28.180 --> 18:34.840]  [SPEAKER_01]: This means basically that you can attach a device to your telephone or computer and be completely private.
[18:36.300 --> 18:39.020]  [SPEAKER_01]: But that is not what the government wants.
[18:39.590 --> 18:51.720]  [SPEAKER_01]: The Senate proposal calls on phone companies and computer equipment manufacturers to permit the government to obtain unscrambled voice and computer data transmissions when searches are authorized by law.
[18:52.120 --> 19:01.520]  [SPEAKER_01]: Of course, that's what it's going to say inside a bill or a law, but abuses of these kind of things are always going to be possible.
[19:03.240 --> 19:09.880]  [SPEAKER_01]: And setting the framework for such abuses is a questionable act in my mind.
[19:10.320 --> 19:20.400]  [SPEAKER_01]: Continuing with the article, the proposal is worded as a resolution in a counter-terrorism bill introduced in January by Senator Joseph Biden who we all know is a Democrat in Delaware.
[19:21.360 --> 19:26.200]  [SPEAKER_01]: But computer industry executives say such proposals would allow troubling invasions of privacy.
[19:26.780 --> 19:27.240]  [SPEAKER_01]: D.
[19:27.420 --> 19:37.820]  [SPEAKER_01]: James Bidzos, president of RSA Data Security Incorporated in Redwood City, California, says, people have no idea what kind of threat to personal privacy this is.
[19:38.200 --> 19:42.100]  [SPEAKER_01]: He added that such legislation could ruin the market for encryption devices.
[19:43.060 --> 19:52.060]  [SPEAKER_01]: The debate illustrates the challenges facing government officials attempting to cope with the power of new technologies while protecting civil liberties.
[19:52.640 --> 19:54.820]  [SPEAKER_01]: Or, at least, pretending to.
[19:55.560 --> 19:59.060]  [SPEAKER_01]: The section, as it is now written, is not legally binding.
[19:59.200 --> 20:15.120]  [SPEAKER_01]: It reads, It is the sense of Congress that providers of electronic communication services and manufacturers of electronic communications service equipment shall ensure that communication systems permit the government to obtain the plain text contents of voice,
[20:15.320 --> 20:19.600]  [SPEAKER_01]: data, and other communications when appropriately authorized by law.
[20:19.760 --> 20:21.640]  [SPEAKER_01]: Plain text meaning on the scrambled.
[20:22.740 --> 20:27.320]  [SPEAKER_01]: But legal experts said that the language left great room for misinterpretation.
[20:27.760 --> 20:32.860]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's deliberately vague, said Yale Kamisar, a law professor at the University of Michigan.
[20:33.100 --> 20:37.560]  [SPEAKER_01]: Why don't they make it a law and set out the procedures the government is required to follow?
[20:38.460 --> 20:40.820]  [SPEAKER_01]: Senator Biden could not be reached for comment.
[20:41.100 --> 20:43.080]  [SPEAKER_01]: I guess the thesaurus wasn't around.
[20:43.440 --> 20:54.260]  [SPEAKER_01]: But several people in Congress familiar with the resolution said it had been inserted because of Justice Department concerns about new encryption systems that circumvent wiretapping techniques.
[20:54.480 --> 21:11.500]  [SPEAKER_01]: A Senate aide who spoke on the condition that he not be identified said that the language was intended to serve as a compromise against a more restrictive White House counterterrorism bill, which proposes sweeping new search powers over telephone and related records.
[21:12.360 --> 21:23.780]  [SPEAKER_01]: But a number of civil liberties experts said that if such a resolution became law, computer makers and communications companies would be forced to place special trap doors in their products.
[21:24.300 --> 21:31.400]  [SPEAKER_01]: These are special software entrances that would permit law enforcement officials to read scrambled text or voice messages.
[21:31.540 --> 21:37.280]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I should put a little asterisk next to that and say it's intended for law enforcement officials.
[21:38.920 --> 21:45.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: But you and I both know that if a trap door is there, a trap door is going to be used by unauthorized people.
[21:46.200 --> 21:54.700]  [SPEAKER_01]: And those unauthorized people will include curiosity-seeking kids, but it will also include some rather malevolent folks out there.
[21:55.080 --> 21:56.800]  [SPEAKER_01]: And that's what you really got to watch out for.
[21:58.160 --> 22:03.200]  [SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, Mr. Bidzos continued, such a change would ruin the effectiveness of current cryptographic equipment.
[22:03.420 --> 22:10.920]  [SPEAKER_01]: He added that it was becoming routine for makers of personal computers to add cryptographic features to their systems as standard equipment.
[22:11.080 --> 22:11.520]  [SPEAKER_01]: What do you think?
[22:11.620 --> 22:19.860]  [SPEAKER_01]: Do you think we should have the right to be private when we speak over the telephone and when we speak over the computer lines?
[22:20.320 --> 22:24.960]  [SPEAKER_01]: Does the government have the right to demand to know what we are saying?
[22:25.940 --> 22:27.480]  [SPEAKER_01]: if we want to remain private?
[22:28.380 --> 22:29.680]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's a good question, isn't it?
[22:30.100 --> 22:32.220]  [SPEAKER_01]: Give us a call, 279-3400.
[22:32.380 --> 22:37.680]  [SPEAKER_01]: We'll be taking phone calls in about, oh, I'd say about 10 minutes, give or take a couple.
[22:37.920 --> 22:42.760]  [SPEAKER_01]: And we'll be talking about privacy and the technological pros and cons.
[22:46.040 --> 22:57.720]  [SPEAKER_01]: Continuing with the Risks Digest, responding to a comment, it's hard to see how we could have medical insurance on today's scale without computerized records and their relatively wide availability.
[22:58.100 --> 23:02.060]  [SPEAKER_01]: Jeff Cunning says, I couldn't disagree more.
[23:02.300 --> 23:06.680]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's trivially easy to see how we can get along without such records.
[23:07.160 --> 23:17.980]  [SPEAKER_01]: The whole purpose of the records is to help insurance companies avoid the self-selection problem, where their pocketbooks are emptied by people who get insurance because they know that they have a serious illness.
[23:18.740 --> 23:24.480]  [SPEAKER_01]: But in a gasp national health care system, this becomes a non-problem.
[23:25.100 --> 23:36.300]  [SPEAKER_01]: And there is no longer any need for widespread exchanges of medical records, except, of course, that the patient may find it in his or her best interest to make full information available to the doctor.
[23:36.380 --> 23:37.260]  [SPEAKER_01]: But that's by choice.
[23:38.620 --> 23:43.240]  [SPEAKER_01]: And also, continuing along the lines of...
[23:44.520 --> 23:45.660]  [SPEAKER_01]: One moment, please.
[23:45.820 --> 23:48.040]  [SPEAKER_01]: I seem to have misfiled these papers here.
[23:54.140 --> 24:04.480]  [SPEAKER_01]: As vacationers flocked to the beaches on this Memorial Day, the Washington Post reported that smart highways, which would relieve traffic congestion, may soon be a reality.
[24:05.020 --> 24:11.760]  [SPEAKER_01]: About $20 million will be spent this year in federal funds to develop intelligent vehicle highway systems.
[24:11.920 --> 24:13.360]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, IVHS.
[24:14.140 --> 24:22.380]  [SPEAKER_01]: Last week, a Senate committee approved a measure that would devote $150 million a year for the next five years to IVHS.
[24:23.600 --> 24:27.100]  [SPEAKER_01]: And according to the Post, proponents call that cheap.
[24:27.880 --> 24:32.660]  [SPEAKER_01]: Estimates for lost productivity resulting from traffic congestion are pegged at $100 billion annually.
[24:33.100 --> 24:34.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: Bet you didn't know that.
[24:34.540 --> 24:41.420]  [SPEAKER_01]: The GAO estimates that a full-scale IVHS system could cut commute time by 50% in such places as Los Angeles.
[24:42.200 --> 24:53.040]  [SPEAKER_01]: The article describes technologies that range from variable message signs that are tied to networks which monitor traffic flow to roadway-based guidewires with radio-controlled autopilots.
[24:54.440 --> 24:55.560]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, get this.
[24:55.800 --> 25:04.320]  [SPEAKER_01]: The story also describes toll gates that will read code radioed from a rolling car and automatically bill a credit card.
[25:05.520 --> 25:10.420]  [SPEAKER_01]: The article notes that in Europe and Japan, trials of such systems have been underway for years.
[25:12.700 --> 25:22.940]  [SPEAKER_01]: Privacy aside, I'm fond of a song by the police that begins every step you take every move you make I'll be watching you.
[25:24.400 --> 25:31.600]  [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe it's time for an update every turn you take every time you break I'll be watching you.
[25:35.620 --> 25:46.120]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's worth finding out whether the Senate committee has considered the privacy implications of gathering this data on drivers and whether there are any proposals to restrict the secondary use of the information.
[25:49.190 --> 25:53.210]  [SPEAKER_01]: Likely buyers, marketing firms, and insurance companies.
[25:55.950 --> 26:00.590]  [SPEAKER_01]: And this final warning from Jim Sims.
[26:02.670 --> 26:07.070]  [SPEAKER_01]: The government already has electronic access to your phone call transactions.
[26:07.830 --> 26:11.030]  [SPEAKER_01]: Numbers, length of call, but not content.
[26:12.130 --> 26:13.490]  [SPEAKER_01]: At least not without a court order.
[26:14.070 --> 26:18.510]  [SPEAKER_01]: They just have to show probable cause for a warrant to tap the contents of your calls.
[26:20.090 --> 26:25.410]  [SPEAKER_01]: Of course, when pressing a button is all you have to do to get the contents.
[26:26.990 --> 26:32.130]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's something that makes it a bit more troublesome, wouldn't you say?
[26:33.370 --> 26:39.410]  [SPEAKER_01]: And this humorous note, I received in the mail today a new product announcement.
[26:39.550 --> 26:41.910]  [SPEAKER_01]: This comes from Ed McGuire in Iowa.
[26:43.050 --> 26:54.970]  [SPEAKER_01]: The new product is software that tutors new computer users and basic operating system concepts, thereby bringing an end to repetitive questions about logging in, current working directory, and so forth.
[26:55.510 --> 27:07.630]  [SPEAKER_01]: And the announcement included comments from users of the product, including this direct quote, I am very excited about this product and highly recommend its use to finally accomplish the goal of computer illiteracy.
[27:09.650 --> 27:12.770]  [SPEAKER_01]: And yes, illiteracy was spelled wrong.
[27:14.270 --> 27:16.410]  [SPEAKER_01]: I guess somebody let Dan Quail in on this.
[27:18.350 --> 27:21.130]  [SPEAKER_01]: 279-3400 is our telephone number area code 212.
[27:21.450 --> 27:23.670]  [SPEAKER_01]: We'll be taking phone calls in just a couple of minutes.
[27:23.670 --> 28:17.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: I am starting to function in the usual way Everything is super-fucked to me Very, very temporary I shall walk I shall walk Out of this place I shall walk Out of you Cause you'd go sitting with hip shoes with a dragon So hard To be like the big boys So you're taking to the pictures Trying to become a picture Inch by inch Trying to reach you All the way through the second feature Worrying about your
[28:17.980 --> 28:23.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: physical fitness Tell me how you got this sickness.
[28:27.180 --> 28:33.740]  [SPEAKER_02]: I was caught in a suction, by a fist like a truncheon.
[28:34.320 --> 28:38.640]  [SPEAKER_02]: I was down upon one knee, stroking a vanity.
[28:39.480 --> 28:42.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: I was stuck on a hammerhead.
[28:43.260 --> 28:45.720]  [SPEAKER_02]: I can't lie to live for dead.
[28:47.020 --> 28:48.220]  [SPEAKER_02]: And this is the first sentence.
[28:48.220 --> 28:50.060]  [SPEAKER_02]: Every breath you take.
[28:51.360 --> 28:53.400]  [SPEAKER_02]: Every move you make.
[28:55.040 --> 28:56.960]  [SPEAKER_02]: Every bond you break.
[28:57.160 --> 28:58.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: Every step you take.
[28:59.120 --> 29:00.740]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'll be watching you.
[29:01.780 --> 29:06.360]  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know where that came from, but I'd rather not have that on the air right now.
[29:06.480 --> 29:07.400]  [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you very much.
[29:07.980 --> 29:10.820]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we just had to dig that up out of the archives.
[29:10.820 --> 29:16.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's the song of the future, Big Brother's anthem, but I don't like the police.
[29:17.440 --> 29:20.220]  [SPEAKER_01]: Not the police police, the group of the police.
[29:20.360 --> 29:20.900]  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't like them.
[29:21.120 --> 29:26.020]  [SPEAKER_01]: I wouldn't generalize about a group of people, unless that group of people happen to be in a band called the police.
[29:26.900 --> 29:27.500]  [SPEAKER_01]: Enough of that.
[29:27.960 --> 29:31.900]  [SPEAKER_01]: Our phone number is 212-279-3400.
[29:33.200 --> 29:39.520]  [SPEAKER_01]: And we will be taking phone calls on privacy issues and things like that.
[29:39.720 --> 29:40.440]  [SPEAKER_01]: Let's see who's out there.
[29:41.080 --> 29:41.840]  [SPEAKER_01]: Good evening.
[29:41.840 --> 29:42.760]  [SPEAKER_07]: Hi.
[29:43.120 --> 29:58.460]  [SPEAKER_07]: A few weeks ago, you had a show on the 900 numbers, and also on the point that on the 800 numbers, there's a kind of automatic national caller ID sort of concealed in it.
[29:58.820 --> 30:06.520]  [SPEAKER_07]: Could you go over the other, I've been curious, the other 100 numbers, the 200 numbers and 300 numbers, and so on.
[30:06.600 --> 30:07.840]  [SPEAKER_07]: What are they used for?
[30:07.980 --> 30:08.960]  [SPEAKER_07]: I've been curious about that.
[30:08.960 --> 30:14.300]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, right now there are no area codes, 200, 300, 400, 500, or 600.
[30:15.040 --> 30:18.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: The only ones in use are 700, 800, and 900.
[30:18.620 --> 30:22.560]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's doubtful that those other area codes will ever be used for anything special.
[30:22.560 --> 30:27.180]  [SPEAKER_01]: They may just be used as an overflow when we run out of area codes.
[30:27.280 --> 30:39.180]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, it's in 1993 or 1994 that the whole area code system is going to change, and it won't be necessary anymore to have a 1 or a 0 as the middle number.
[30:39.380 --> 30:39.680]  [SPEAKER_01]: So...
[30:39.680 --> 30:40.660]  [SPEAKER_07]: When was that announced?
[30:40.820 --> 30:41.640]  [SPEAKER_07]: I hadn't heard about that.
[30:41.920 --> 30:44.460]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's been in the works for a couple of years now.
[30:44.580 --> 30:50.240]  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know when exactly it was announced, but for instance, it will be possible for there to be a 279 area code.
[30:50.240 --> 30:52.940]  [SPEAKER_01]: So you can dial 279-279-3400.
[30:53.240 --> 31:00.420]  [SPEAKER_01]: And what will probably come out of that is we'll just have 10-digit phone numbers, and area will start to mean less and less.
[31:00.860 --> 31:01.300]  [SPEAKER_01]: I see.
[31:01.400 --> 31:03.560]  [SPEAKER_01]: So I don't know what's going to happen to those area codes.
[31:03.640 --> 31:07.740]  [SPEAKER_01]: But to get back to your question, 700 numbers are carrier-specific.
[31:07.740 --> 31:12.520]  [SPEAKER_01]: In other words, every carrier has its set of 700 numbers.
[31:13.640 --> 31:23.520]  [SPEAKER_01]: One of the first conference lines, I don't know if you recall this on the late-night TV, was this huge, huge number that was, I think, 10441-700...
[31:24.260 --> 31:25.740]  [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, you mean those love-line things?
[31:25.840 --> 31:28.120]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but it was an incredibly long number.
[31:28.120 --> 31:35.320]  [SPEAKER_01]: And that was because it was going through AllNet, and it was an AllNet service that was being billed through a 700 number.
[31:35.480 --> 31:35.820]  [SPEAKER_01]: I see.
[31:36.020 --> 31:43.860]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's kind of unclear as to what the differences are between 700 and 900 services, except that 700 are carrier-specific.
[31:44.140 --> 31:48.880]  [SPEAKER_01]: You can also find out what your carrier is by calling 700-555-4141.
[31:48.980 --> 31:51.280]  [SPEAKER_01]: That will tell you what your long-distance company is.
[31:51.320 --> 31:52.160]  [SPEAKER_01]: And that is a free call.
[31:52.240 --> 31:54.900]  [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's about the only free call you can get on the 700 number.
[31:55.760 --> 31:57.640]  [SPEAKER_01]: 800, of course, we know what that is used for.
[31:57.740 --> 31:58.960]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's for toll-free calls.
[31:59.740 --> 32:03.740]  [SPEAKER_01]: 900 is for mass announcement and mass caller.
[32:04.460 --> 32:13.840]  [SPEAKER_01]: When you have thousands and thousands of people calling a certain number as kind of a poll, all 900 numbers except for 900 information are expensive, usually.
[32:14.400 --> 32:28.780]  [SPEAKER_07]: You know, you had several times been very negative on these, I forget the 540 numbers or the 976 numbers, that type of, you know, a dollar a minute thing.
[32:29.780 --> 32:44.560]  [SPEAKER_07]: I've always thought that that was an excellent development, not a bad one, that there are all of these innovative things that you could punch into, you know, through all these little services, through these numbers.
[32:44.840 --> 32:51.160]  [SPEAKER_07]: The only problem being that they don't make it clear enough how much it will cost you up front.
[32:51.160 --> 32:52.180]  [SPEAKER_07]: That's the problem.
[32:52.300 --> 33:00.560]  [SPEAKER_07]: But the idea of all of these new services, just at the touch of a Touch-Tone phone, struck me as an extremely innovative and creative thing.
[33:00.860 --> 33:01.740]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I agree with that.
[33:01.740 --> 33:06.380]  [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's good that such services are being developed, but there's two factors.
[33:06.620 --> 33:12.540]  [SPEAKER_01]: The first you mentioned already is the fact that it's so easy to stumble into one of these things without realizing what you're getting into.
[33:12.640 --> 33:14.020]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't think that has to be that way.
[33:14.020 --> 33:16.180]  [SPEAKER_01]: I think it can be made very clear.
[33:16.620 --> 33:29.760]  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you left out to the exchanges, and most people don't know any of these exchanges, but 540, 550, 970, and 976 are exchanges that are going to cost you a different amount than calling a regular exchange.
[33:30.080 --> 33:30.400]  [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[33:30.600 --> 33:31.480]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's that simple.
[33:31.900 --> 33:39.040]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, the other problem is, of course, the fact that it costs a large amount of money a lot of times, like $25 for one call.
[33:39.120 --> 33:40.020]  [SPEAKER_01]: And that just doesn't seem right.
[33:40.020 --> 33:43.640]  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't see why you should have to pay so much for a phone call.
[33:43.640 --> 33:47.680]  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, what can possibly be transmitted over phone lines that is worth that much to you?
[33:47.980 --> 33:53.340]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, you know, CBS now has a weather number.
[33:53.560 --> 33:54.940]  [SPEAKER_07]: You may have tried it yourself.
[33:55.180 --> 34:03.420]  [SPEAKER_07]: An excellent... gives you the weather report any time for the cost of a local call, or, you know, if it's on Saturday for 4 cents or something like that.
[34:03.440 --> 34:03.760]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's great.
[34:03.920 --> 34:05.520]  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that's the kind of thing that should be encouraged.
[34:05.860 --> 34:08.140]  [SPEAKER_01]: Why cannot systems like that survive?
[34:08.460 --> 34:11.480]  [SPEAKER_01]: Why do we have to spend 36 cents to find out what time it is?
[34:11.900 --> 34:13.240]  [SPEAKER_01]: Because, you know, it doesn't seem right.
[34:13.560 --> 34:14.360]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, that's true.
[34:14.440 --> 34:15.760]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, it didn't used to be that way.
[34:15.860 --> 34:18.080]  [SPEAKER_07]: It used to be a regular call, as you recall.
[34:18.940 --> 34:22.360]  [SPEAKER_07]: One other thing I wanted to ask you was this.
[34:25.500 --> 34:27.900]  [SPEAKER_07]: Cordless phones, on the matter of cordless phones.
[34:28.340 --> 34:34.960]  [SPEAKER_07]: Now, I have never been stuck with somebody else's bill on a cordless phone the way many people apparently have.
[34:34.960 --> 34:43.520]  [SPEAKER_07]: However, I do have the problem of getting my phone ringing off the hook with apparently somebody else's phone.
[34:44.000 --> 34:46.120]  [SPEAKER_07]: And, you know, you pick it up and you get a dial tone.
[34:46.240 --> 34:51.840]  [SPEAKER_07]: Is there any way to take care of that very annoying situation?
[34:52.300 --> 34:53.460]  [SPEAKER_01]: How old is your cordless phone?
[34:53.600 --> 34:54.340]  [SPEAKER_07]: How old is it?
[34:54.700 --> 34:55.580]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's not old.
[34:55.620 --> 34:56.620]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's about two years old.
[34:57.200 --> 34:59.480]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, you live in a heavily congested area.
[34:59.620 --> 35:00.560]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, in Manhattan.
[35:00.560 --> 35:01.220]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, okay.
[35:01.380 --> 35:02.480]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, that probably explains it.
[35:03.000 --> 35:05.060]  [SPEAKER_01]: There are so many cordless phones out there.
[35:05.140 --> 35:06.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: Almost everyone seems to have one.
[35:06.980 --> 35:17.000]  [SPEAKER_01]: The odds of someone having a similar frequency or a harmonic or something like that that will trigger your phone to either chirp or to actually ring.
[35:17.220 --> 35:20.320]  [SPEAKER_01]: You might even get cross-conversations.
[35:20.480 --> 35:24.680]  [SPEAKER_07]: If that has happened, that doesn't happen often, but I've actually heard other people.
[35:24.960 --> 35:27.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: Do you have a channel selector on your cordless?
[35:27.700 --> 35:28.180]  [SPEAKER_07]: I do not.
[35:28.180 --> 35:28.960]  [SPEAKER_01]: You do not.
[35:29.040 --> 35:33.960]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, well, if you had one, you'd be able to switch to a channel that doesn't give you as much interference.
[35:34.100 --> 35:35.020]  [SPEAKER_01]: How often does this happen to you?
[35:35.560 --> 35:39.040]  [SPEAKER_07]: As far as just the ringing, it happens a few times a day.
[35:39.300 --> 35:39.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: Really?
[35:39.820 --> 35:39.960]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[35:40.120 --> 35:45.620]  [SPEAKER_07]: As far as hearing the other person's conversation, that only happens now and then.
[35:45.740 --> 35:49.620]  [SPEAKER_07]: But now, when that has happened, I've tried to break in, you know.
[35:49.720 --> 35:53.660]  [SPEAKER_07]: I thought maybe this is the other person who is ringing, and we could get together on it.
[35:53.760 --> 35:55.160]  [SPEAKER_07]: But they can't hear me.
[35:55.160 --> 35:55.600]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh-huh.
[35:55.720 --> 35:56.720]  [SPEAKER_07]: Only I hear them.
[35:57.120 --> 36:04.340]  [SPEAKER_07]: Now, of course, the thing I've wondered is, maybe on many of my conversations, they hear me, and I don't hear them.
[36:04.440 --> 36:06.240]  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I would assume that.
[36:06.440 --> 36:06.560]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[36:06.560 --> 36:07.260]  [SPEAKER_01]: I would assume that.
[36:07.420 --> 36:14.960]  [SPEAKER_01]: And everyone who has a cordless phone, I mean, all I have to do is go into your neighborhood with a scanner, and I can find you when you're on your cordless phone.
[36:15.180 --> 36:22.020]  [SPEAKER_01]: And anybody that lives within, say, a square mile of you, and that's a lot of people, they can all listen to what you say on your cordless phones.
[36:22.020 --> 36:22.460]  [SPEAKER_01]: I see.
[36:22.640 --> 36:29.760]  [SPEAKER_01]: And no matter what kind of crazy laws they come up with, saying that it's illegal to do that, it's still going to happen until some kind of encryption device is put into place.
[36:30.160 --> 36:30.480]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[36:30.480 --> 36:34.080]  [SPEAKER_01]: But now, of course, the government wants in on the encryption device so they can listen to you anyway.
[36:34.180 --> 36:36.300]  [SPEAKER_01]: So the whole thing is anarchy.
[36:37.240 --> 36:38.540]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, you're absolutely right.
[36:38.920 --> 36:39.580]  [SPEAKER_07]: Absolutely right.
[36:39.680 --> 36:40.720]  [SPEAKER_07]: One last question.
[36:40.880 --> 36:42.320]  [SPEAKER_07]: This is absolutely the last one.
[36:42.320 --> 36:52.660]  [SPEAKER_07]: Is it possible when you're speaking to a phone company office or an operator for them to block your line?
[36:52.840 --> 37:03.120]  [SPEAKER_07]: In other words, if they're angry at you or something like that, can they do something at their end so that you cannot get a dial tone on your end?
[37:03.120 --> 37:04.060]  [SPEAKER_01]: They can...
[37:04.060 --> 37:19.600]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, if you're talking to an operator and you upset an operator, and I know this from doing this as a kid, they have a little feature known as backhold, where they can, even though you called them, they can hang your line so that you can't get a dial tone back.
[37:19.720 --> 37:20.540]  [SPEAKER_01]: They can do that.
[37:20.660 --> 37:21.040]  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, sure.
[37:21.120 --> 37:23.060]  [SPEAKER_01]: And it's happened out of incompetence too.
[37:23.320 --> 37:25.640]  [SPEAKER_01]: Lots of times you talk to an operator and she forgets to hang up.
[37:25.880 --> 37:30.920]  [SPEAKER_01]: And you have a deadline until she finally figures it out or until the next shift comes on.
[37:31.080 --> 37:31.420]  [SPEAKER_01]: I see.
[37:31.420 --> 37:34.140]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, yeah, that's something that we should be careful.
[37:34.320 --> 37:37.020]  [SPEAKER_07]: It has happened to me out of hostility.
[37:37.460 --> 37:39.120]  [SPEAKER_01]: It has happened to you out of hostility.
[37:39.220 --> 37:39.900]  [SPEAKER_07]: Hostility, yes.
[37:40.540 --> 37:42.000]  [SPEAKER_01]: Information operators can't do it.
[37:42.560 --> 37:48.500]  [SPEAKER_01]: It has to be an operator that can actually connect you to something and that is fairly local.
[37:48.680 --> 37:53.840]  [SPEAKER_01]: Right now AT&T can do it, your local company can do it, but I don't believe MCI or Sprint are capable of that yet.
[37:54.260 --> 37:55.780]  [SPEAKER_07]: Are you having a meeting on Friday?
[37:56.240 --> 37:58.820]  [SPEAKER_01]: Not this Friday, the week after, the first Friday of the month.
[37:59.000 --> 37:59.680]  [SPEAKER_07]: Usual place?
[37:59.800 --> 38:00.520]  [SPEAKER_01]: Usual place.
[38:00.520 --> 38:01.380]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, thanks a lot.
[38:01.500 --> 38:02.000]  [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for calling.
[38:02.120 --> 38:02.220]  [SPEAKER_01]: Bye.
[38:02.220 --> 38:11.120]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I call her, of course, referring to the 2600 meetings which take place first Friday of the month and a more bizarre cast of characters you could not ask for.
[38:11.360 --> 38:15.220]  [SPEAKER_01]: Not even the New York Amateur Computer Club beats us in bizzardom.
[38:15.220 --> 38:21.920]  [SPEAKER_01]: And that takes place first Friday of the month in the lobby area of the city core center.
[38:22.380 --> 38:28.920]  [SPEAKER_01]: Hackers and hacker wannabes show up and do all kinds of strange things.
[38:28.920 --> 38:32.260]  [SPEAKER_01]: We'll have the latest issue of the magazine which just came out.
[38:34.060 --> 38:34.940]  [SPEAKER_01]: 279-3400.
[38:35.560 --> 38:36.200]  [SPEAKER_01]: Good evening.
[38:36.520 --> 38:36.920]  [SPEAKER_00]: Good evening.
[38:37.180 --> 38:37.420]  [SPEAKER_00]: How are you doing?
[38:37.520 --> 38:39.680]  [SPEAKER_00]: I wanted to speak with the...
[38:41.660 --> 38:43.560]  [SPEAKER_01]: You're on delay, so don't get confused.
[38:43.720 --> 38:47.060]  [SPEAKER_00]: I wanted to, number one, thank you for an excellent program as always.
[38:47.060 --> 38:54.000]  [SPEAKER_00]: A lot of times people don't get a chance to really express their respect and to say thank you for the information that you're sharing.
[38:54.000 --> 38:54.800]  [SPEAKER_01]: You're very welcome.
[38:54.800 --> 38:57.820]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's my obligation to share information, I feel.
[38:58.080 --> 38:58.880]  [SPEAKER_00]: It's fantastic.
[38:58.880 --> 39:13.080]  [SPEAKER_00]: I wanted to ask how does, I'm an amateur, how do we get connected to Internet so that we can get access to information that's on risk and to learn more about the kind of information that you're sharing with us.
[39:13.160 --> 39:18.560]  [SPEAKER_00]: And what I'll do is, rather than stay on the line and hog it, I'll just get off and listen to the information you share with us.
[39:18.640 --> 39:18.880]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[39:19.040 --> 39:19.780]  [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you very much.
[39:20.380 --> 39:20.820]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[39:20.980 --> 39:31.120]  [SPEAKER_01]: The best way to access Internet, first of all, if you have any affiliation with a school, such as a college or university, you can probably get access in that way.
[39:31.260 --> 39:33.520]  [SPEAKER_01]: You can probably go to the computer science department.
[39:33.820 --> 39:40.400]  [SPEAKER_01]: And in most schools, most schools that I'm familiar with, you have the right to a computer account, no matter what courses you're taking.
[39:40.520 --> 39:43.140]  [SPEAKER_01]: Even if you're not taking a computer course, you have the right to an account.
[39:43.580 --> 39:51.040]  [SPEAKER_01]: And through that account, you have access to Internet, you have access to FTP, which is a way of transferring files from system to system.
[39:51.040 --> 39:58.520]  [SPEAKER_01]: Just the other day, I was on a system, and I was able to copy a file from Europe over to the United States.
[39:58.520 --> 40:00.840]  [SPEAKER_01]: And it took about 10 seconds to copy the file.
[40:00.960 --> 40:02.140]  [SPEAKER_01]: It was a big file, too.
[40:02.560 --> 40:04.780]  [SPEAKER_01]: But I didn't have to pay for a phone call to Europe.
[40:04.800 --> 40:10.280]  [SPEAKER_01]: I just paid for the local connection, and the Internet connected me to the system in Europe.
[40:10.340 --> 40:13.460]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I was able to copy the file from there and then copy it down to my home system.
[40:13.980 --> 40:16.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: And the whole thing didn't cost me anything.
[40:16.580 --> 40:19.900]  [SPEAKER_01]: And it was legal, which is a rare combination.
[40:21.260 --> 40:24.200]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, barring that, if you don't have access to a school...
[40:24.640 --> 40:28.540]  [SPEAKER_01]: And some people, some people actually take a single course in order to get that access.
[40:28.700 --> 40:29.460]  [SPEAKER_01]: It might be worth it.
[40:30.120 --> 40:36.120]  [SPEAKER_01]: The other option I would suggest would be to hook up to a public access system.
[40:36.700 --> 40:41.720]  [SPEAKER_01]: The one that springs to mind, that I can think of, is not in New York.
[40:41.980 --> 40:45.120]  [SPEAKER_01]: There's a system called Echo in New York, but they are not yet hooked up to the Internet.
[40:45.120 --> 40:47.440]  [SPEAKER_01]: And when they are, I will certainly promote them.
[40:48.700 --> 40:52.840]  [SPEAKER_01]: But the Well in California actually is not hooked up to the Internet either.
[40:52.980 --> 40:56.600]  [SPEAKER_01]: They are hooked up to USENET, which allows you access to news groups and things like that.
[40:56.680 --> 40:59.220]  [SPEAKER_01]: But not actual file copying.
[40:59.440 --> 41:01.200]  [SPEAKER_01]: I understand that will be changing this summer.
[41:02.660 --> 41:06.160]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, to get in touch with them, I can give you a modem number.
[41:07.440 --> 41:09.820]  [SPEAKER_01]: Which I know won't do you much good if you don't have a modem.
[41:09.880 --> 41:12.140]  [SPEAKER_01]: But then if you don't have a modem, you wouldn't be interested in this anyway.
[41:12.140 --> 41:17.960]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, the modem number is area code 415-332-6106.
[41:18.260 --> 41:22.820]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't have their regular number, but they are in Sausalito, California.
[41:22.820 --> 41:24.500]  [SPEAKER_01]: You can call information and ask them.
[41:24.580 --> 41:26.600]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I am sure they have an office number they can give you.
[41:26.680 --> 41:28.040]  [SPEAKER_01]: They are affiliated with the Whole Earth Review.
[41:29.240 --> 41:34.940]  [SPEAKER_01]: And through them, you can access thousands and thousands of topics.
[41:34.960 --> 41:37.240]  [SPEAKER_01]: And people all over the world.
[41:37.340 --> 41:42.660]  [SPEAKER_01]: And it will give you a mailbox, too, that you can send and receive mail to places all over the place.
[41:42.980 --> 41:53.400]  [SPEAKER_01]: Prices are extremely reasonable, I think, in light of the commercial systems such as Prodigy, America Online, CompuServe, and other such things.
[41:53.400 --> 41:57.300]  [SPEAKER_01]: Which I really won't get into now because I'll just get too passionate about it.
[41:58.940 --> 42:00.260]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, yes, check into that.
[42:00.420 --> 42:13.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: Another option, since a lot of people are adverse to making phone calls to California, there's a service run by SprintNet, formerly known as Telenet, known as PC Pursuit.
[42:13.700 --> 42:23.260]  [SPEAKER_01]: Which, for $30 a month, I believe is the price, allows you 30 hours of connect time to any city in the country, virtually any city in the country.
[42:23.260 --> 42:27.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, you can call up California, and it will be a local phone call for you.
[42:27.820 --> 42:31.520]  [SPEAKER_01]: And you can spend 30 hours on the phone to California, and it will cost you $30.
[42:31.900 --> 42:38.040]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, you can compare that to a local, or rather a long-distance phone company's prices and see if that works out.
[42:38.100 --> 42:38.820]  [SPEAKER_01]: There's ways to do it.
[42:38.900 --> 42:40.260]  [SPEAKER_01]: There's ways to figure it out.
[42:41.620 --> 42:45.760]  [SPEAKER_01]: And ways of hopping onto other systems and managing to connect.
[42:45.760 --> 42:52.660]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's all part of figuring out how to wander around in this technological playground.
[42:53.000 --> 42:53.880]  [SPEAKER_01]: Good evening.
[42:55.180 --> 42:56.120]  [SPEAKER_01]: Go ahead.
[42:56.220 --> 42:56.440]  [SPEAKER_01]: You're on.
[42:57.160 --> 42:57.740]  [SPEAKER_05]: Hi.
[42:57.880 --> 42:58.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: I had a question.
[42:58.860 --> 43:00.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: I once heard that the
[43:06.080 --> 43:18.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: ability to scan astronomical numbers of conversations for specific words that might interest, say, law enforcement authorities.
[43:18.480 --> 43:25.720]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, you know, a word like, I don't know, drugs or explosives, something like that.
[43:26.480 --> 43:27.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: Have you heard about this?
[43:27.900 --> 43:36.720]  [SPEAKER_05]: And could you give any information that you have about, like, NSA's abilities to probe, you know, your average phone conversation?
[43:36.720 --> 43:37.180]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[43:37.940 --> 43:45.920]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's been known for quite some time that transatlantic phone calls are monitored by the NSA.
[43:46.340 --> 43:53.440]  [SPEAKER_01]: Key words like, say, bomb, terrorist, assassinate, and that kind of thing.
[43:55.880 --> 44:03.420]  [SPEAKER_01]: If you say those words and if they're said frequently, you do trigger a particular kind of machine.
[44:04.340 --> 44:09.220]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm looking at an actual message about this right now, actually.
[44:09.220 --> 44:16.240]  [SPEAKER_01]: If two-minute keywords like, say, Qaddafi are recognized within a certain time, a tape recorder automatically switches on.
[44:16.600 --> 44:25.680]  [SPEAKER_01]: And this person says, for that reason, I start all my transatlantic phone calls with a list of ten keywords just to be sure to waste some of their undoubtedly vast amount of audio tape.
[44:26.540 --> 44:28.160]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, yeah, it does happen.
[44:28.160 --> 44:29.360]  [SPEAKER_01]: There is monitoring going on.
[44:29.440 --> 44:32.080]  [SPEAKER_01]: You can never assume that you're not being listened to by somebody.
[44:32.080 --> 44:36.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: So, perhaps even in that context, these encryption devices are...
[44:36.980 --> 44:43.280]  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, just, you know, on the chance that one's conversation did have these words, an encryption device might make sense.
[44:43.440 --> 44:45.480]  [SPEAKER_01]: An encryption device, I think, always makes sense.
[44:45.900 --> 44:48.220]  [SPEAKER_01]: And as many independent kinds as possible.
[44:48.400 --> 44:59.300]  [SPEAKER_01]: Because once you have one, you know, standardized encryption device, it's quite possible to crack it through the manufacturer or through the government as the government wants to do.
[45:00.320 --> 45:07.320]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, my perfect scenario is to have all kinds of different systems going at the same time.
[45:07.520 --> 45:13.300]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, of course, that's exactly what the government does not want, because then they would have no means of...
[45:13.300 --> 45:18.060]  [SPEAKER_01]: Or it would be very difficult for them to listen in on a conversation.
[45:18.420 --> 45:19.220]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, thank you.
[45:19.380 --> 45:20.140]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, thanks for calling.
[45:22.840 --> 45:27.820]  [SPEAKER_01]: And let's take another phone call down here, and then we're going to try something.
[45:27.820 --> 45:28.420]  [SPEAKER_01]: Good evening.
[45:29.900 --> 45:30.300]  Good evening.
[45:30.300 --> 45:30.400]  [SPEAKER_01]: Good evening.
[45:30.400 --> 45:30.640]  [SPEAKER_01]: Are you there?
[45:31.660 --> 45:32.060]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[45:33.040 --> 45:33.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: Good evening.
[45:33.640 --> 45:33.960]  [SPEAKER_01]: Are you there?
[45:34.180 --> 45:34.820]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yes, I'm here.
[45:35.260 --> 45:38.480]  [SPEAKER_08]: Most people would like me to be private, but I don't choose to be private.
[45:38.920 --> 45:39.920]  [SPEAKER_08]: You know, this is Monroe.
[45:40.100 --> 45:41.720]  [SPEAKER_08]: I'm the plague of WBAI.
[45:42.260 --> 45:44.620]  [SPEAKER_08]: Anyway, the thing about everything is that...
[45:44.620 --> 45:45.780]  [SPEAKER_01]: Monroe, can I just ask you a question?
[45:45.880 --> 45:47.360]  [SPEAKER_01]: Do you have us on a speed dial?
[45:47.960 --> 45:48.580]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, no.
[45:48.720 --> 45:50.180]  [SPEAKER_08]: I called in very late.
[45:50.320 --> 45:52.340]  [SPEAKER_08]: I called in one time here.
[45:52.720 --> 45:53.880]  [SPEAKER_08]: I like your program.
[45:53.880 --> 45:56.600]  [SPEAKER_01]: I was just curious as to your technological setup, you know.
[45:56.600 --> 45:59.020]  [SPEAKER_08]: No, let me admit to the truth.
[45:59.240 --> 46:00.280]  [SPEAKER_08]: I will not be private.
[46:00.700 --> 46:04.180]  [SPEAKER_08]: When I'm at the office, I have available phones.
[46:04.460 --> 46:07.000]  [SPEAKER_08]: And we do have a redial, if that's what you mean.
[46:07.640 --> 46:10.720]  [SPEAKER_01]: Are you familiar with the phone company service known as speed dialing?
[46:10.720 --> 46:20.620]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, I'm trying to say that once we dial the number, then we push a button that says redial, and that number is available.
[46:20.620 --> 46:30.480]  [SPEAKER_08]: So if I'm getting a busy signal, I can then push that thing, and when somebody's hanging up, then my call will come in quicker than if I spent time hitting each digit.
[46:30.480 --> 46:32.420]  [SPEAKER_01]: Right, but that's on your phone.
[46:32.480 --> 46:37.000]  [SPEAKER_01]: But there's also a system by the phone company that allows you to go through the actual switch.
[46:37.000 --> 46:38.300]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's much quicker than that.
[46:38.480 --> 46:39.380]  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know why I'm telling you this.
[46:39.380 --> 46:40.020]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, let me say it this way.
[46:40.100 --> 46:44.500]  [SPEAKER_08]: I don't even like the fact that I have to make, you know, these different things.
[46:44.500 --> 46:48.760]  [SPEAKER_08]: But, you know, we were involved with a problem about the price of books, of all things.
[46:49.060 --> 46:52.980]  [SPEAKER_08]: And I felt that a book is too distinguished an object in our lives.
[46:52.980 --> 47:03.960]  [SPEAKER_08]: You know, it's a thing where we get information and share emotions and so forth that people on WBAI would say to authors, oh, please don't mention the price of a book.
[47:03.980 --> 47:09.560]  [SPEAKER_08]: And it got so bad at one point that people were saying, oh, I can't tell you what the price of a book is, but it's 15 frankfurters.
[47:09.560 --> 47:11.180]  [SPEAKER_08]: And it got absurd.
[47:11.180 --> 47:17.400]  [SPEAKER_08]: I felt like I was attached to, you know, involved with listening over the radio to a form of insanity.
[47:17.400 --> 47:22.220]  [SPEAKER_08]: So I protested it and developed a very bad character rating by some people.
[47:22.400 --> 47:25.360]  [SPEAKER_08]: But as time has gone on, things have gotten much better.
[47:25.720 --> 47:31.100]  [SPEAKER_08]: Anyway, the point of everything is I think it was a tremendously important problem, this problem of privacy.
[47:31.380 --> 47:34.180]  [SPEAKER_08]: But the thing is, what do you have that you want to keep private?
[47:34.180 --> 47:41.460]  [SPEAKER_08]: Now, if I was Milken or Boski, I wouldn't want people to know anything about what was going on.
[47:41.520 --> 47:50.660]  [SPEAKER_08]: And as a matter of fact, the computers watching the stock market started to tell the SEC, I guess it was, that things were somehow very strange, you know what I mean?
[47:50.880 --> 47:59.280]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, now, you know, are you saying that what me said was true, that only the guilty people have something to hide?
[47:59.280 --> 48:02.880]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, I mean, you know, the great authors are honest about things.
[48:03.040 --> 48:05.480]  [SPEAKER_08]: The great doctors are saying everybody masturbates.
[48:05.580 --> 48:07.380]  [SPEAKER_08]: So most people, if you say, do you masturbate?
[48:07.480 --> 48:09.760]  [SPEAKER_08]: People say, oh, no, I will...
[48:10.260 --> 48:12.840]  [SPEAKER_08]: But of course, the doctors say that it's universal.
[48:13.240 --> 48:21.920]  [SPEAKER_08]: So, I mean, even Madonna is accused of having some, you know, things in her film that are masturbatory, you know, that she's touching herself down there.
[48:22.320 --> 48:25.020]  [SPEAKER_01]: Can we maybe try to steer the ship back towards the topic here?
[48:25.020 --> 48:26.540]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, I'm talking about privacy.
[48:26.800 --> 48:31.040]  [SPEAKER_08]: I mean, the point is, we want to have a healthy and meaningful society.
[48:31.240 --> 48:44.140]  [SPEAKER_08]: And apparently, from the way we've been handling it, where we've had privacies, we've created people with tremendous lusts for something that, after people have it, they say, what was I so crazed out about?
[48:44.600 --> 48:45.280]  [SPEAKER_08]: You see what I mean?
[48:45.640 --> 48:46.480]  [SPEAKER_01]: I think so.
[48:46.900 --> 48:56.420]  [SPEAKER_08]: So the point is, I appreciate some of your efforts, you know, in the sense of trying to make long-distance calls to Iraq, and so on and so forth.
[48:56.520 --> 48:57.460]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, someone has to do it.
[48:57.500 --> 48:58.060]  [SPEAKER_08]: By a program.
[48:58.220 --> 49:03.240]  [SPEAKER_08]: But really, the problem is in the management of WBAI, you see what I mean?
[49:03.380 --> 49:04.720]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, well, that's not an issue for here.
[49:04.840 --> 49:05.760]  [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks very much for calling.
[49:06.160 --> 49:06.640]  [SPEAKER_01]: Good evening.
[49:07.600 --> 49:12.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, well, I was wondering if you had any information on the data encryption standard?
[49:13.840 --> 49:15.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: On DES, you're referring to.
[49:15.860 --> 49:18.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, he was talking about trapdoors and that.
[49:18.760 --> 49:29.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: I remember in Cliff Stahl's book, The Cuckoo's Egg, that he said that there were some suspicions that there were trapdoors in DES.
[49:29.480 --> 49:32.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I was wondering whether any evidence had ever turned up about that.
[49:32.720 --> 49:34.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: That book came out a few years ago.
[49:34.500 --> 49:35.640]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not aware of any.
[49:35.720 --> 49:39.980]  [SPEAKER_01]: That doesn't mean that something like that has not happened, but it hasn't come to my attention.
[49:39.980 --> 49:43.740]  [SPEAKER_01]: Perhaps one of our more enlightened callers on that can fill us in.
[49:44.520 --> 49:47.080]  [SPEAKER_01]: But I'm keeping my eyes open for it, I can tell you that much.
[49:47.240 --> 49:47.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: All right, thanks.
[49:48.880 --> 49:50.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's an interesting discussion tonight.
[49:51.140 --> 49:51.920]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, thanks for calling.
[49:52.760 --> 49:55.760]  [SPEAKER_01]: A lot of people have an interest in this kind of thing.
[49:56.000 --> 49:59.720]  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, privacy is something that we kind of take for granted.
[49:59.720 --> 50:06.680]  [SPEAKER_01]: We think that what we do and what we say is our own personal business.
[50:06.860 --> 50:10.180]  [SPEAKER_01]: But you're an explorer.
[50:10.400 --> 50:13.200]  [SPEAKER_01]: Look around on various computer systems.
[50:13.360 --> 50:15.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: See how the credit agencies work.
[50:15.720 --> 50:17.300]  [SPEAKER_01]: See what phone bills look like.
[50:17.560 --> 50:21.080]  [SPEAKER_01]: And you can very quickly draw up a picture of somebody.
[50:21.560 --> 50:25.080]  [SPEAKER_01]: And whether or not it's an accurate picture, that's something else.
[50:25.080 --> 50:27.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, but it's a picture.
[50:27.820 --> 50:29.740]  [SPEAKER_01]: And it's a disturbing picture.
[50:31.800 --> 50:35.280]  [SPEAKER_01]: Let's see, I have a little bit more on the topic a couple of callers ago.
[50:37.180 --> 50:48.480]  [SPEAKER_01]: Someone who says potentially dangerous words on the Internet like, say, Blue Box or Assassination of Bush or things like that will get a visit from Big Brother.
[50:48.840 --> 50:53.020]  [SPEAKER_01]: I just hope they don't become aware of the underground nature of the USENET.
[50:53.860 --> 50:59.700]  [SPEAKER_01]: If they do, it won't be long before you need a military clearance to even read news, let alone post.
[51:01.540 --> 51:07.820]  [SPEAKER_01]: And there is an interesting development on the Internet over the past couple of days.
[51:08.540 --> 51:16.480]  [SPEAKER_01]: From this user, only identified as MMM, I just had an interesting visit from the FBI.
[51:16.480 --> 51:22.520]  [SPEAKER_01]: It seems that a posting I made to Psy.Space, that's a news group having to do with space issues.
[51:23.280 --> 51:30.700]  [SPEAKER_01]: A posting I made to Psy.Space several months ago had filtered through channels, caused the FBI to open or reopen a file on me.
[51:30.960 --> 51:33.860]  [SPEAKER_01]: And an agent wanted to interview me, which I did voluntarily.
[51:33.860 --> 51:37.320]  [SPEAKER_01]: My posting concerned destruct systems for missiles.
[51:37.680 --> 51:47.140]  [SPEAKER_01]: I had had a chance to look at the manual on the destruct system used on the Poseidon and Polaris A3 missiles, and was shocked at the vulnerability of the system which triggers the system.
[51:47.740 --> 51:52.440]  [SPEAKER_01]: In my posting, I commented that the system seemed less secure than many garage door openers.
[51:52.440 --> 51:59.080]  [SPEAKER_01]: It uses a set of three tones, in which two tones are presented, then one tone is taken away, and the third tone is applied.
[51:59.500 --> 52:03.680]  [SPEAKER_01]: The only classified parts of the system are the frequencies of the second and third tones.
[52:04.560 --> 52:09.440]  [SPEAKER_01]: On the network, I asked whether tone control systems like this are still used for missile destruct systems.
[52:09.960 --> 52:21.460]  [SPEAKER_01]: By electronic mail, I received an answer from a person who was currently designing a destruct system, and he indeed confirmed that not only are tone control destruct systems still used, they are a requirement of some test ranges.
[52:21.460 --> 52:29.860]  [SPEAKER_01]: However, he thought it would be difficult to send the bogus destruct command because of the need to blot out one of the tones which is transmitted continuously from ground control.
[52:30.380 --> 52:35.300]  [SPEAKER_01]: It would be far easier to insert a bogus flight control command and send the missile toward a city.
[52:36.060 --> 52:43.840]  [SPEAKER_01]: A few months later, I received a message from my system operator asking me to call a person at Patrick Air Force Base, who wanted to get in touch with me.
[52:44.160 --> 52:47.520]  [SPEAKER_01]: This guy was real concerned that I had revealed sensitive information.
[52:47.940 --> 52:50.800]  [SPEAKER_01]: He said he kept his copy of my posting in his safe.
[52:51.560 --> 52:55.560]  [SPEAKER_01]: I guess he didn't know that it had already been distributed throughout the industrialized world.
[52:56.480 --> 52:59.020]  [SPEAKER_01]: He didn't want to say anything about the subject over the phone.
[52:59.160 --> 53:02.120]  [SPEAKER_01]: He asked whether I would be willing to be interviewed by an investigator.
[53:07.730 --> 53:12.470]  [SPEAKER_01]: I agreed, and he said I would be contacted within 24 hours by someone locally.
[53:13.110 --> 53:14.610]  [SPEAKER_01]: That was the last I heard of him.
[53:14.610 --> 53:20.870]  [SPEAKER_01]: I suppose he talked to someone who knew more about destruct systems and was reassured that it isn't possible because it hadn't happened yet.
[53:22.190 --> 53:29.430]  [SPEAKER_01]: Two days ago, more than half a year after my original posting, I got a message that someone from the Palo Alto office of the FBI wanted to talk to me.
[53:29.710 --> 53:31.990]  [SPEAKER_01]: I called him and we agreed to meet this morning.
[53:32.310 --> 53:35.370]  [SPEAKER_01]: He didn't seem too concerned with the technical aspects of my posting.
[53:35.570 --> 53:37.890]  [SPEAKER_01]: I guess he also had his own experts to consult.
[53:38.170 --> 53:41.690]  [SPEAKER_01]: He mostly seemed to be checking me out to see if I was plotting to blow up a missile.
[53:42.130 --> 53:45.030]  [SPEAKER_01]: He was also very interested in how the network works.
[53:45.850 --> 53:47.390]  [SPEAKER_01]: I told him all about the net.
[53:47.750 --> 53:51.670]  [SPEAKER_01]: He wanted to know if there was any sort of censorship or control over what goes on the net.
[53:51.890 --> 53:54.610]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I explained it was mostly after the fact control.
[53:54.770 --> 54:01.410]  [SPEAKER_01]: For example, if you post a commercial advertisement, the management of your site will get a ton of electronic mail asking that your account be cancelled.
[54:02.110 --> 54:06.790]  [SPEAKER_01]: He asked whether someone could post an offer for $10,000 for blueprints of a missile or something.
[54:07.250 --> 54:10.330]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I said there isn't any sort of censorship that would prevent that sort of thing.
[54:10.330 --> 54:19.930]  [SPEAKER_01]: But the closest thing to a request for information on performing a crime that I knew of was a couple of years ago when someone asked in the chemistry news group about methods for electrically igniting a chemical.
[54:20.330 --> 54:26.130]  [SPEAKER_01]: I told him about the controversy that caused, although I admitted my role in answering the original poster's question.
[54:27.270 --> 54:32.890]  [SPEAKER_01]: I also told him about news groups like Alt.Drugs, Rec.Pyrotech, etc.
[54:33.410 --> 54:34.930]  [SPEAKER_01]: He took copious notes.
[54:35.350 --> 54:37.970]  [SPEAKER_01]: He asked about the equipment needed to access the net.
[54:38.410 --> 54:40.950]  [SPEAKER_01]: I told him about computers and modems.
[54:41.590 --> 54:43.810]  [SPEAKER_01]: The only surprise came at the end of the interview.
[54:43.950 --> 54:45.250]  [SPEAKER_01]: He asked if I had any questions.
[54:45.990 --> 54:49.390]  [SPEAKER_01]: I said I was curious how my posting ended up in his hands.
[54:50.390 --> 54:54.690]  [SPEAKER_01]: Before he could answer, I said, I suppose you were contacted by that guy at Patrick Air Force Base.
[54:55.210 --> 54:59.090]  [SPEAKER_01]: This surprised him and he said he knew of no involvement by anyone at Patrick Air Force Base.
[54:59.090 --> 55:03.130]  [SPEAKER_01]: I asked how did he know about my posting and he said he couldn't answer that.
[55:03.510 --> 55:13.050]  [SPEAKER_01]: I then went on to tell him about the controversy over UUNet and their role in supplying archives of USnet traffic on tape to the FBI and he seemed surprised by that also.
[55:13.190 --> 55:13.830]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's a whole other thing.
[55:15.110 --> 55:16.710]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, where is the risk here?
[55:16.890 --> 55:19.230]  [SPEAKER_01]: None to me because I was a perfectly innocent party.
[55:19.230 --> 55:27.910]  [SPEAKER_01]: I suppose some people would be really concerned to learn that their postings to the net are being monitored for possible illegal activity, but I would be far more concerned if they were not.
[55:28.190 --> 55:36.670]  [SPEAKER_01]: The fact that two independent investigations were started is reassuring to me because it shows that the government is not totally brain-dead with regard to possible threats to their big projects.
[55:37.230 --> 55:40.790]  [SPEAKER_01]: Certainly, if I were FBI director, I would consider USnet to be a great resource.
[55:40.790 --> 55:49.890]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'd learn all about computer crime, recreational drugs that aren't illegal yet, low-tech ways of building bombs, how to contact Earth first, et cetera, et cetera.
[55:50.550 --> 56:14.910]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, while this particular person does not really see the risk, I don't think it takes much of a stretch of imagination for us to see the risks to freedom of speech, to communication between people when the government starts taking a very close interest in how exactly to control computer networks and telephone networks and things like that.
[56:15.050 --> 56:22.150]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's about all the time we're going to have for today, but this is an ongoing subject, and we'll be talking about it in great detail.
[56:22.150 --> 56:24.450]  [SPEAKER_01]: You can rest assured of that in the weeks to come.
[56:24.530 --> 56:28.930]  [SPEAKER_01]: And yes, we will be back next week for another edition of Off the Hook.
[56:29.170 --> 56:34.330]  [SPEAKER_01]: Until then, have yourselves a peaceful and private time.
[56:34.330 --> 56:36.490]  [SPEAKER_01]: Stay tuned for the Personal Computer Show.
[56:36.650 --> 56:38.910]  [SPEAKER_01]: This is WBAI, New York.
[56:45.150 --> 56:49.730]  [SPEAKER_04]: The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
[56:50.570 --> 56:55.090]  [SPEAKER_04]: I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a call.