Off The Hook - 1991-06-05

[00:03.440 --> 00:06.240]  [SPEAKER_09]: And this is WBAI, New York.
[00:06.420 --> 00:07.740]  [SPEAKER_09]: Time for Off the Hook.
[00:14.020 --> 00:15.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: The telephone keeps ringing.
[00:16.340 --> 00:18.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: So I ripped it off the wall.
[00:19.560 --> 00:21.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: I cut myself while shaving.
[00:22.100 --> 00:24.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now I can't make a call.
[00:24.880 --> 00:27.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: It couldn't get much worse.
[00:29.460 --> 00:32.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: But Bum Diddly Bum, for the best to expect the worst.
[00:33.200 --> 00:35.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: I hope that's understood.
[00:35.320 --> 00:36.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: Bum Diddly Bum!
[00:59.240 --> 01:01.140]  [SPEAKER_09]: And a very good evening to one and all.
[01:01.420 --> 01:02.720]  [SPEAKER_09]: The program is Off the Hook.
[01:02.880 --> 01:04.460]  [SPEAKER_09]: And this is Emmanuel Goldstein.
[01:04.460 --> 01:11.140]  [SPEAKER_09]: We're with you every Wednesday night from 9 to 10 o'clock here on listener-supported radio.
[01:12.080 --> 01:18.460]  [SPEAKER_09]: And if you're tuning in for the Zeitgeist Hour, well, if you're tuning in the wrong week, first of all, and second of all, they won't be on over the summer.
[01:18.640 --> 01:20.500]  [SPEAKER_09]: So that is the news from that front.
[01:21.680 --> 01:34.740]  [SPEAKER_09]: Speaking of news from all kinds of other different fronts, we've been monitoring computer-related items and telephone-related items and consumer-related items that have been happening throughout the last week or so.
[01:35.000 --> 01:37.460]  [SPEAKER_09]: As always, we'll be bringing you that information.
[01:37.600 --> 01:38.800]  [SPEAKER_09]: We'll be taking some phone calls.
[01:39.040 --> 01:43.060]  [SPEAKER_09]: And we've got a special guest who has been in the news in the last week.
[01:43.440 --> 01:45.040]  [SPEAKER_09]: So stay tuned.
[01:45.160 --> 01:46.000]  [SPEAKER_09]: Off the Hook is here.
[03:04.140 --> 03:10.160]  [SPEAKER_09]: And here's a couple of items from the Risks Digest, as we like to take a look at that each week.
[03:10.160 --> 03:13.320]  [SPEAKER_09]: Find out what's happening in the crazy world of technology.
[03:13.940 --> 03:15.340]  [SPEAKER_09]: And, folks, it is a crazy world.
[03:15.960 --> 03:19.800]  [SPEAKER_09]: This person is named Anastasios Virgius.
[03:20.500 --> 03:22.520]  [SPEAKER_09]: And he had a run-in with the computer.
[03:23.120 --> 03:31.840]  [SPEAKER_09]: I had my first encounter when trying to give my forwarding address to Paragon Cable in Minneapolis, Minnesota.
[03:32.740 --> 03:37.240]  [SPEAKER_09]: No matter how much it was squeezed or stretched, their computer would accept it.
[03:37.240 --> 03:40.240]  [SPEAKER_09]: You see, it was not a U.S.
[03:40.420 --> 03:40.620]  [SPEAKER_09]: address.
[03:41.480 --> 03:48.380]  [SPEAKER_09]: Being physically present there, after all, I was returning to the decoder box, I could observe exactly what was happening.
[03:48.960 --> 03:50.960]  [SPEAKER_09]: The address was in Athens, Greece.
[03:51.400 --> 03:54.340]  [SPEAKER_09]: And their postal code was 15235.
[03:55.040 --> 04:01.840]  [SPEAKER_09]: But every time the man pressed return, it would automatically erase Athens, Greece and put Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania there.
[04:02.720 --> 04:07.220]  [SPEAKER_09]: Most certainly, the zip code was soft-wired with the city and state information.
[04:07.560 --> 04:09.040]  [SPEAKER_09]: In other words, it was intelligent.
[04:09.700 --> 04:13.040]  [SPEAKER_09]: It was disturbing that the program would not simply issue a warning.
[04:13.700 --> 04:17.640]  [SPEAKER_09]: I offered to pay the outstanding balance about two weeks' service on the spot.
[04:17.660 --> 04:21.360]  [SPEAKER_09]: But they could not accept it, as a bill had to be mailed by the computer.
[04:21.580 --> 04:23.360]  [SPEAKER_09]: And this would take ten days or so.
[04:23.680 --> 04:27.120]  [SPEAKER_09]: As I was moving in a week, most definitely the operator had a problem in his hands.
[04:27.800 --> 04:30.100]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's interesting how the operator resolved the problem.
[04:30.260 --> 04:37.080]  [SPEAKER_09]: He simply backdated the disconnection date to coincide with the last day of the last bill, so there was no need anymore for a forwarding address.
[04:37.880 --> 04:40.220]  [SPEAKER_09]: Can't complain, as I got two weeks' free service.
[04:40.580 --> 04:42.980]  [SPEAKER_09]: Surely a good deal for Paragon Cable as well.
[04:43.280 --> 04:45.320]  [SPEAKER_09]: Think of the cost to upgrade the software.
[04:45.900 --> 04:48.460]  [SPEAKER_09]: I can't help wondering how often they encountered this problem.
[04:48.700 --> 04:52.880]  [SPEAKER_09]: The phone company, however, had no trouble at all accepting this overseas address.
[04:53.560 --> 04:56.960]  [SPEAKER_09]: But that's the kind of thing that does happen quite often.
[04:57.120 --> 05:04.520]  [SPEAKER_09]: I don't know how many times you've been to places like Radio Shack, where they just ask you for your zip code, and you give them the zip code, and they know who you are immediately.
[05:05.480 --> 05:06.920]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's life in the 90s.
[05:08.460 --> 05:13.560]  [SPEAKER_09]: Another, a bit more ugly example of life in the 90s has to do with privacy.
[05:13.560 --> 05:19.540]  [SPEAKER_09]: This was posted by somebody who wishes to remain anonymous concerning privacy and network monitoring.
[05:20.060 --> 05:30.680]  [SPEAKER_09]: He says, by some, or she says, by some odd coincidence, the recent privacy thread in the Risk's Digest comes along right on the heels of an ugly incident at the company I work for.
[05:31.180 --> 05:37.240]  [SPEAKER_09]: We have a very large internal network, along with a system of news groups on a wide variety of topics.
[05:37.620 --> 05:43.300]  [SPEAKER_09]: One of these is called Grumps, which is designed essentially for the venting of curmudgeonly humor.
[05:43.300 --> 05:48.620]  [SPEAKER_09]: It is generally considered to be the electronic equivalent of the occasional water-cooler gripe session.
[05:48.940 --> 05:54.120]  [SPEAKER_09]: Although humorous in intent, sometimes issues important to the running of the company surface there.
[05:54.500 --> 06:03.560]  [SPEAKER_09]: I posted a satirical message last month, taking the company to task with some bit of silly official pomposity, and thought nothing more of it.
[06:04.000 --> 06:11.920]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, imagine my surprise when, two weeks later, my manager's boss called me into his office with a copy of that message on his desk.
[06:12.360 --> 06:21.400]  [SPEAKER_09]: He informed me that I should think carefully about sending out this sort of thing, and that it reflected poorly on me and could jeopardize my professional advancement.
[06:22.220 --> 06:34.200]  [SPEAKER_09]: Upon investigation, I discovered that our personnel department has very quietly taken on the job of surreptitiously monitoring traffic on certain internal recreational distribution lists.
[06:34.200 --> 06:41.740]  [SPEAKER_09]: And when something offensive is detected, it gets back, via the personnel system, to the offender's management.
[06:42.600 --> 06:51.400]  [SPEAKER_09]: I had a long talk with our vice president of personnel, who explained that they weren't spying, they were just trying to keep offensive mail off the network.
[06:51.900 --> 06:55.420]  [SPEAKER_09]: Of course, they decide what is offensive and what is not.
[06:56.100 --> 07:11.540]  [SPEAKER_09]: And there is most certainly a risk here, one which I don't recall having seen mentioned before, and it is that personnel-slash-management people operate under a very different set of values than the people in the technical community with whom I normally share such postings.
[07:12.020 --> 07:17.480]  [SPEAKER_09]: For example, this vice president pointed with pride to the fact that she doesn't have a computer in her office.
[07:17.720 --> 07:30.040]  [SPEAKER_09]: The manager I talked to insisted that posting to a distribution list is a public act, whereas I view it as private in the same way as a conversation around the lunch table in a group of friends.
[07:30.640 --> 07:36.280]  [SPEAKER_09]: These people have now set themselves up as social arbiters of a system which they themselves never use.
[07:37.760 --> 07:48.240]  [SPEAKER_09]: After thinking about this incident, I implemented an anonymous mail forwarding system which would allow people to express their opinions openly without fear of retribution on specified charges.
[07:48.860 --> 07:51.440]  [SPEAKER_09]: Not surprisingly, word of this got around too.
[07:51.780 --> 07:54.280]  [SPEAKER_09]: This system proved to be intolerable to personnel.
[07:54.280 --> 08:06.600]  [SPEAKER_09]: They could not stand the idea that someone could say what they liked and couldn't be traced, despite the fact that the company itself operates a comment system which is designed to allow people to send anonymous comments to management.
[08:07.400 --> 08:10.080]  [SPEAKER_09]: I was politely asked to stop my forwarding service.
[08:10.600 --> 08:13.640]  [SPEAKER_09]: After thinking it over, I agreed, and I now regret that decision.
[08:13.920 --> 08:25.560]  [SPEAKER_09]: The net result has been greatly decreased traffic on the Grumps distribution list and a major loss of faith on my part in the goodwill of the management of our company toward the people who work there.
[08:27.840 --> 08:49.460]  [SPEAKER_09]: If you have such a story, please send it in to us here at Off The Hook because we're interested in monitoring, monitoring, monitoring in the workplace because there's an awful lot of that going around, especially in the electronic workplace where your every keystroke can be watched and analyzed and your speed can be monitored completely.
[08:51.560 --> 08:56.780]  [SPEAKER_09]: And, uh, this is something you might have seen in the newspapers recently in the last week or so.
[08:58.340 --> 09:13.300]  [SPEAKER_09]: In, uh, classic life imitates art tradition, a case has been filed that resembles my Mr. M hypothetical, the person who, for numerological reasons, publishes things like pins, private phone numbers, and so on.
[09:13.340 --> 09:17.720]  [SPEAKER_09]: By the way, this is a posting from Jerry Leichter of the Risks Digest.
[09:19.480 --> 09:23.520]  [SPEAKER_09]: The, uh, following is summarized from the Wall Street Journal, May 29th.
[09:24.160 --> 09:32.580]  [SPEAKER_09]: American Airlines has sued Travel Confidential Newsletter and its publisher, Paul Edwards, to stop it from publishing lists of discount codes.
[09:32.980 --> 09:42.840]  [SPEAKER_09]: The codes which travelers are supposed to mention when making reservations entitle them to discounts of 5% to 40% on airfare, car rentals, and hotel rooms.
[09:43.040 --> 09:45.620]  [SPEAKER_09]: They are intended for people attending conventions.
[09:46.420 --> 09:59.240]  [SPEAKER_09]: AMR charges Travel Confidential and Edwards with fraud and racketeering for publicizing its codes and asks for a court order banning such publication, $750,000 in punitive damages and unspecified losses.
[09:59.780 --> 10:10.900]  [SPEAKER_09]: Travel Confidential is published with the sole purpose of facilitating, aiding, and inducing the commission of fraud on American and other airlines, hotels, and car rental agencies, AMR claims.
[10:11.120 --> 10:17.880]  [SPEAKER_09]: But Mr. Edwards says he is doing nothing illegal by pulling together information that is publicly announced by convention sponsors.
[10:18.340 --> 10:21.160]  [SPEAKER_09]: Every word comes from publicly available sources.
[10:21.500 --> 10:26.040]  [SPEAKER_09]: There is not one iota of confidential or private information in this newsletter.
[10:26.540 --> 10:29.720]  [SPEAKER_09]: He also denies that he is encouraging his readers to commit fraud.
[10:30.180 --> 10:35.560]  [SPEAKER_09]: Edwards claims that airlines rarely even ask whether a traveler is attending the event that matches the code.
[10:35.560 --> 10:39.320]  [SPEAKER_09]: If they don't want people to abuse it, they should police it, he says.
[10:40.840 --> 10:44.840]  [SPEAKER_09]: The similarities to computer hacking are interesting here.
[10:44.980 --> 10:48.640]  [SPEAKER_09]: And in fact, we have Paul Edwards right here in the studio with us.
[10:48.860 --> 10:55.420]  [SPEAKER_09]: And we're going to be speaking with him and talking about his newsletter and talking about the airlines and how they work.
[10:55.580 --> 11:02.200]  [SPEAKER_09]: So we'll be getting to that right after we hear a new piece that just came out on vinyl this week.
[11:02.540 --> 11:04.660]  [SPEAKER_09]: It was imported from England.
[11:04.660 --> 11:09.200]  [SPEAKER_09]: And we'll be taking your phone calls afterwards at 279-3400.
[11:09.340 --> 11:13.280]  [SPEAKER_09]: This is a new bit of music from a band called Screaming Target.
[12:11.870 --> 12:13.250]  [SPEAKER_06]: We'll be right back.
[12:13.270 --> 12:13.290]  ***
[12:21.040 --> 12:26.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: A like a courthouse and a hanging tree.
[12:26.720 --> 12:31.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: There's kinds of theatre where it used to be.
[12:31.620 --> 12:33.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: We're making us a movie.
[12:33.500 --> 12:35.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: We're hanging up our guns.
[12:36.600 --> 12:40.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: In between the eyes, the West was one.
[12:40.960 --> 12:44.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: Not one silent nation, one two.
[13:17.240 --> 13:22.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: A cast of thousands and a view of sun.
[13:22.800 --> 13:26.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: Millions of tickets, the West is one.
[13:27.640 --> 13:31.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: The legend of tinsel town paid blood and stars.
[13:32.280 --> 13:35.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: Wood from the hanging tree built a cinema.
[13:36.640 --> 13:40.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: Black wine, silent nation went to the
[13:51.860 --> 13:52.580]  island.
[13:52.840 --> 13:54.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: A lot to the West was one.
[13:56.140 --> 13:58.470]  [SPEAKER_05]: Ain't no more hero than a look like me.
[13:58.710 --> 14:00.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: Pure pure face kill off everybody.
[14:00.990 --> 14:02.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: African Indian with the Apache.
[14:03.260 --> 14:05.210]  [SPEAKER_05]: She even bring the alien like 80.
[14:05.760 --> 14:07.600]  [SPEAKER_05]: In a cartoon tough kill off Jerry.
[14:07.960 --> 14:09.970]  [SPEAKER_05]: A pure black leg is on your country.
[14:10.260 --> 14:12.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: She look like the male I think you have to agree.
[14:12.620 --> 14:14.440]  [SPEAKER_05]: A fire to shock but a little man's fight.
[14:15.800 --> 14:17.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: The nation went to war.
[14:20.400 --> 14:22.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: A lot to answer for.
[15:01.610 --> 15:05.030]  [SPEAKER_09]: And those are the remnants of a band called Big Audio Dynamite.
[15:05.330 --> 15:08.870]  [SPEAKER_09]: And they're now known as Screaming Target, minus Mick Jones.
[15:09.530 --> 15:11.470]  [SPEAKER_09]: They've just released a record in London.
[15:11.970 --> 15:13.390]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, they're about to release a record.
[15:13.490 --> 15:14.710]  [SPEAKER_09]: Actually, it hasn't even come out there yet.
[15:15.050 --> 15:16.730]  [SPEAKER_09]: The record is called Hometown Hi-Fi.
[15:16.750 --> 15:18.250]  [SPEAKER_09]: That song is Blood and Stars.
[15:18.410 --> 15:22.050]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's all about nations going to war and things like that.
[15:22.130 --> 15:27.710]  [SPEAKER_09]: But you know, the most disturbing thing about it is the fact that Island Records has said they're not going to release that record here in this country.
[15:28.070 --> 15:29.390]  [SPEAKER_09]: At least not this year.
[15:29.590 --> 15:36.470]  [SPEAKER_09]: So, I thought it would be a right fine gesture for all of us to give Island Records a call and urge them to do otherwise.
[15:37.030 --> 15:40.130]  [SPEAKER_09]: And as a public service, I've gotten Island Records' phone number.
[15:40.310 --> 15:42.770]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's 212-477-8000.
[15:42.770 --> 15:52.970]  [SPEAKER_09]: So, if you would like to hear interesting music that has lyrics that mean something, please give them a call, 212-477-8000, and tell them that.
[15:53.650 --> 15:54.910]  [SPEAKER_09]: They love hearing from people.
[15:55.350 --> 15:56.610]  [SPEAKER_09]: The program is off the hook.
[15:56.850 --> 15:57.970]  [SPEAKER_09]: This is Emmanuel Goldstein.
[15:58.390 --> 16:08.430]  [SPEAKER_09]: And we have in the studio with us now Paul Edwards, who publishes a magazine that deals with getting information out.
[16:09.470 --> 16:22.450]  [SPEAKER_09]: Now, a rather large company has objected to getting this information out, and I can't help but feel a kind of affinity here, because I'm involved in sort of the same thing regarding computer hackers and telephone enthusiasts and people like that.
[16:22.490 --> 16:30.550]  [SPEAKER_09]: We're always trying to point out the bugs in the system and try to explain things in ways that the average person can understand.
[16:30.550 --> 16:36.790]  [SPEAKER_09]: And I think that's what is done here with the magazine, which is called Travel Confidential.
[16:36.790 --> 16:47.670]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's about 24 pages in length, 8 1⁄2 by 11 format, and basically it's news and information about various ways to save money traveling.
[16:48.350 --> 16:56.310]  [SPEAKER_09]: As we mentioned a few minutes ago, one of the airlines, I believe it's American Airlines, has filed a lawsuit to prevent this from happening.
[16:56.530 --> 16:59.350]  [SPEAKER_09]: And Paul, let's first of all make sure your microphone is working.
[17:00.050 --> 17:00.530]  [SPEAKER_09]: Good evening.
[17:00.730 --> 17:01.230]  [SPEAKER_09]: Ah, it is.
[17:01.330 --> 17:01.510]  [SPEAKER_09]: Great.
[17:01.730 --> 17:03.890]  [SPEAKER_09]: Could you explain what the idea of the magazine is?
[17:03.930 --> 17:06.050]  [SPEAKER_09]: You've only been publishing for four issues now.
[17:06.050 --> 17:07.310]  [SPEAKER_01]: Already you've managed to get sued.
[17:07.670 --> 17:09.770]  [SPEAKER_01]: This is... it's just totally staggering to us.
[17:09.890 --> 17:10.830]  [SPEAKER_01]: We're baffled.
[17:10.970 --> 17:11.590]  [SPEAKER_01]: We're mystified.
[17:13.470 --> 17:20.130]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's just utterly inconceivable that this could have caused the uproar that it's caused in such a short period of time.
[17:20.150 --> 17:22.170]  [SPEAKER_01]: We never expected to have this kind of impact.
[17:22.350 --> 17:24.630]  [SPEAKER_09]: When you take on a major corporation head-to-head like that...
[17:25.630 --> 17:27.350]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, that's the way they see it.
[17:27.470 --> 17:29.970]  [SPEAKER_01]: We never really thought we were taking anybody on.
[17:30.430 --> 17:42.190]  [SPEAKER_01]: Quite frankly, we thought that there was a tremendous amount of travel discount information available in the marketplace that most people were unaware of, many of whom were, in fact, legitimately entitled to take advantage of these discounts.
[17:42.730 --> 17:44.590]  [SPEAKER_01]: And we're now in the middle of a recession.
[17:44.750 --> 17:49.070]  [SPEAKER_01]: People are very concerned with saving money, even companies and business people who travel quite frequently.
[17:49.070 --> 17:56.310]  [SPEAKER_01]: And we thought it was an excellent time, you know, taking into account the economy, to start this publication.
[17:57.930 --> 18:01.030]  [SPEAKER_01]: The idea behind the publication is really very simple.
[18:01.210 --> 18:13.390]  [SPEAKER_01]: It is nothing more than a comprehensive list of meetings, conventions, trade shows, association meetings, in some cases seminars, that are taking place all over the country.
[18:13.770 --> 18:24.710]  [SPEAKER_01]: And in addition to giving you the dates and locations and names of these events, we also tell you all about the discount travel arrangements that have been negotiated for people who are attending those events.
[18:25.170 --> 18:28.530]  [SPEAKER_01]: These discounts can be quite substantial in some cases.
[18:29.210 --> 18:34.750]  [SPEAKER_01]: Airfare discounts will range anywhere from 30% to 50% off the normal full coach fare.
[18:35.070 --> 18:37.070]  [SPEAKER_01]: Most of them come in at about 45%.
[18:38.490 --> 18:45.250]  [SPEAKER_01]: Hotel discounts that are provided to these people typically are 30% to 40% off what the hotel calls the rack rate.
[18:46.890 --> 18:51.690]  [SPEAKER_01]: And the car rental discounts could be anywhere from about 10% to 20% off the normal full rate.
[18:53.250 --> 18:57.930]  [SPEAKER_01]: Many people will say, gee, some of this sounds good, some of it doesn't even sound that great.
[18:58.430 --> 19:03.330]  [SPEAKER_01]: Most corporations can get a 15% or 20% discount off of rental cars without doing anything.
[19:03.630 --> 19:05.710]  [SPEAKER_01]: Most individuals can take advantage of that too.
[19:05.870 --> 19:06.310]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's true.
[19:07.430 --> 19:12.350]  [SPEAKER_01]: Very few people wind up walking in off the street cold to a hotel and paying the full price.
[19:12.770 --> 19:21.730]  [SPEAKER_01]: So although they'd be saving some money if they took advantage of this, it's not as if they were, you know, saving a huge sum of money.
[19:21.750 --> 19:23.850]  [SPEAKER_01]: Although in some cases, this can be very helpful.
[19:24.590 --> 19:28.750]  [SPEAKER_09]: Now, the way your newsletter is set up, you open it up and there's all different cities.
[19:29.010 --> 19:33.070]  [SPEAKER_09]: And underneath each city, there's a range of dates and then all kinds of information after that.
[19:33.230 --> 19:33.370]  [SPEAKER_09]: Right.
[19:33.370 --> 19:35.610]  [SPEAKER_09]: So how would somebody use this information?
[19:37.610 --> 19:39.570]  [SPEAKER_01]: There are two different ways to use this information.
[19:39.690 --> 19:42.710]  [SPEAKER_01]: The legitimate way and the American Airlines illegitimate way.
[19:42.930 --> 19:43.270]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[19:43.410 --> 19:44.550]  [SPEAKER_01]: Or what they claim is illegitimate.
[19:45.390 --> 19:47.310]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'll take the legitimate way first.
[19:47.950 --> 19:49.930]  [SPEAKER_01]: You're in business, you're going to a trade show.
[19:50.470 --> 19:50.690]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[19:51.410 --> 19:56.410]  [SPEAKER_01]: And you call up your travel agent and tell them, I'm going to Chicago next week.
[19:56.410 --> 19:58.590]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going out there on the 14th.
[19:58.670 --> 20:00.030]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm returning the 16th.
[20:00.630 --> 20:02.830]  [SPEAKER_01]: And the travel agent says, that's fine.
[20:04.350 --> 20:09.610]  [SPEAKER_01]: She, or he, very diligently says, are you attending a show when you go out there?
[20:09.670 --> 20:10.830]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, this has happened to me many times.
[20:10.830 --> 20:16.070]  [SPEAKER_01]: This is a standard question that a travel agent should ask when they're booking a flight for a corporate client.
[20:16.730 --> 20:18.590]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I reply, yes.
[20:18.590 --> 20:20.970]  [SPEAKER_01]: As a matter of fact, I'm going out to the plastic show in Chicago.
[20:21.510 --> 20:24.070]  [SPEAKER_01]: And she says, well, did they arrange any discount information?
[20:24.250 --> 20:25.890]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I said, gee, I really don't know.
[20:26.410 --> 20:28.530]  [SPEAKER_01]: My boss just told me to make sure I got out there.
[20:28.590 --> 20:30.070]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I really don't know about this stuff.
[20:30.210 --> 20:32.450]  [SPEAKER_01]: And she says, well, don't worry.
[20:32.550 --> 20:32.950]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's fine.
[20:33.050 --> 20:33.710]  [SPEAKER_01]: We'll take care of it.
[20:34.130 --> 20:35.390]  [SPEAKER_01]: She gets off the phone with me.
[20:35.390 --> 20:36.550]  [SPEAKER_01]: She turns to my newsletter.
[20:36.710 --> 20:37.330]  [SPEAKER_01]: She looks it up.
[20:37.430 --> 20:43.030]  [SPEAKER_01]: She finds that the plastic show does indeed have an airfare discount for, let's say, American Airlines.
[20:43.550 --> 20:45.990]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's got one for maybe the Chicago Hilton.
[20:46.310 --> 20:48.850]  [SPEAKER_01]: And if I need a car rental, maybe that's there, too.
[20:49.510 --> 20:56.590]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now she can call the airline and book the reservation for me and get the discount that applies, probably 45% off the full fare coach.
[20:57.210 --> 20:58.790]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, now this is all legitimate.
[20:59.050 --> 21:06.930]  [SPEAKER_01]: The only hitch in this is that up until four months ago, when I started publishing, the travel agent did not have access to this code information.
[21:07.390 --> 21:11.390]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, how were people supposed to be able to get the information then if it wasn't published?
[21:11.390 --> 21:17.390]  [SPEAKER_01]: The only way that the information was distributed to a conference attendee was through a single conference brochure.
[21:17.390 --> 21:23.370]  [SPEAKER_01]: That was distributed probably in one mailing to people that they thought ought to attend the show.
[21:23.670 --> 21:26.650]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now maybe my company got that mailing and maybe it didn't.
[21:26.750 --> 21:30.470]  [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe even I got it and threw it away or misplaced it or lost it.
[21:30.550 --> 21:32.230]  [SPEAKER_01]: And now I no longer have the information.
[21:32.690 --> 21:37.570]  [SPEAKER_01]: The discount reference material has never been distributed to travel agents.
[21:37.570 --> 21:40.050]  [SPEAKER_01]: So they've never had access to this material.
[21:40.850 --> 21:56.790]  [SPEAKER_01]: And what this means is that there are a large number of people who are attending, really attending trade shows and conventions all around the country who are unable to take advantage of these discounts because they never knew about the discount or they lost the information.
[21:57.570 --> 22:03.190]  [SPEAKER_01]: We got in the mail today, just as an example, a catalog from a seminar company.
[22:03.330 --> 22:08.410]  [SPEAKER_01]: This is a seminar company that puts on training sessions for people in the computer field.
[22:09.010 --> 22:15.550]  [SPEAKER_01]: There were networking seminars, OS2 seminars, you know, some of the things that I'm sure our listeners tonight are familiar with.
[22:16.110 --> 22:22.230]  [SPEAKER_01]: And this company puts on dozens, dozens of seminars all around the country.
[22:22.630 --> 22:28.630]  [SPEAKER_01]: There was not one word about discount travel information available if you were attending one of these things.
[22:29.250 --> 22:42.130]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, if there was a conference that I really wanted to attend at Los Angeles, and I'm here in New York, it's going to cost me as much as $1,400 to pay the full fare coach to go out there if I learn about this on short notice.
[22:42.310 --> 22:44.090]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's what the current full fare coach is.
[22:44.230 --> 22:49.290]  [SPEAKER_09]: Maybe that's something you could explain to me because there are different rates for different people.
[22:49.430 --> 22:52.790]  [SPEAKER_09]: Now, there's a business rate, and then there's a regular person rate.
[22:53.150 --> 22:55.930]  [SPEAKER_09]: Now, why would anybody in their right mind pay a business rate?
[22:56.110 --> 23:01.370]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, the airlines don't really call it a business rate, but you're right because that is effectively what it becomes.
[23:02.370 --> 23:10.250]  [SPEAKER_01]: If we ignore first class for the moment, which is an animal unto itself, there is something called the full fare coach.
[23:11.230 --> 23:16.730]  [SPEAKER_01]: And if you buy a full fare coach ticket, you're buying this for one of several reasons.
[23:17.290 --> 23:19.750]  [SPEAKER_01]: One is the airlines will sell it to you without restriction.
[23:20.650 --> 23:23.750]  [SPEAKER_01]: And what that means is that you can travel when you want, where you want.
[23:23.870 --> 23:25.630]  [SPEAKER_01]: You can change your mind as often as you want.
[23:25.710 --> 23:30.390]  [SPEAKER_01]: The ticket is good for up to a year, and at which point you can return it for a full cash refund.
[23:30.390 --> 23:33.390]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, or even extend it, I suppose.
[23:36.250 --> 23:41.610]  [SPEAKER_01]: Another reason to buy the full fare coach ticket is that you've got to go tomorrow, and that's the only ticket they'll sell you.
[23:42.890 --> 23:43.410]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay?
[23:44.690 --> 23:49.350]  [SPEAKER_01]: And then you start to get into what they call discounted tickets.
[23:49.990 --> 23:53.970]  [SPEAKER_01]: Right now, they have a special promotion for a three-day advance ticket.
[23:54.850 --> 24:04.210]  [SPEAKER_01]: Many of the airlines will give you 20% off the full fare coach if you book and pay for your ticket three days in advance of your travel.
[24:07.310 --> 24:12.710]  [SPEAKER_01]: The next step, I believe, that exists right now is a 21-day advance purchase ticket.
[24:13.430 --> 24:21.830]  [SPEAKER_01]: And the fare comes down to about 65% off the full fare coach if you book and pay for your ticket 21 days in advance.
[24:22.910 --> 24:24.070]  [SPEAKER_01]: There's a catch, however.
[24:24.650 --> 24:27.310]  [SPEAKER_01]: If you change your mind, you lose all your money.
[24:28.170 --> 24:31.250]  [SPEAKER_01]: You cannot change your reservation.
[24:33.390 --> 24:37.270]  [SPEAKER_01]: The only way that we're funded is if you are sick and submit a note from your doctor.
[24:37.470 --> 24:37.970]  [SPEAKER_09]: Oh, really?
[24:38.230 --> 24:38.470]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[24:38.630 --> 24:39.230]  [SPEAKER_09]: Oh, you can do that?
[24:39.350 --> 24:39.630]  [SPEAKER_09]: Oh, yeah.
[24:39.710 --> 24:40.250]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's just like school.
[24:40.390 --> 24:40.850]  [SPEAKER_09]: I never knew that.
[24:41.230 --> 24:42.590]  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, this is just like school.
[24:42.710 --> 24:44.470]  [SPEAKER_01]: That is exactly the way they treat their customers.
[24:45.070 --> 24:49.130]  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, as if you were five years old and you need a note from your doctor to get out of this.
[24:53.410 --> 24:58.610]  [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, many people are attracted by the relatively low fare, and they will buy these tickets.
[24:59.650 --> 25:09.310]  [SPEAKER_01]: But the airlines are determined to make it very difficult for you in the event that you have a change of plans or you can't make it.
[25:12.110 --> 25:13.330]  [SPEAKER_01]: And it's really bad.
[25:13.450 --> 25:17.050]  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, the fact of the matter is you can point to other kinds of situations where there may be something similar.
[25:17.290 --> 25:25.690]  [SPEAKER_01]: If you go up to Broadway and you buy a theater ticket, all right, they tell you to look at the ticket before you go because they're not going to exchange this, and they won't give you your money back.
[25:25.730 --> 25:27.270]  [SPEAKER_01]: And that's a very similar kind of situation.
[25:27.270 --> 25:29.550]  [SPEAKER_01]: You've paid, you know, $40, $50 for this ticket.
[25:30.470 --> 25:32.810]  [SPEAKER_01]: And if you get sick or you change your mind, that's too bad.
[25:33.210 --> 25:34.490]  [SPEAKER_01]: There is one way out, however.
[25:35.070 --> 25:37.350]  [SPEAKER_01]: If I bought a theater ticket, I can sell it to you.
[25:38.130 --> 25:38.450]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay?
[25:38.810 --> 25:40.090]  [SPEAKER_01]: And the theater doesn't care.
[25:41.550 --> 25:42.690]  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I could give it to you.
[25:42.750 --> 25:43.550]  [SPEAKER_01]: I could sell it to you.
[25:43.590 --> 25:45.310]  [SPEAKER_01]: I could possibly even make a little money on it.
[25:45.370 --> 25:45.830]  [SPEAKER_01]: They don't care.
[25:46.750 --> 25:47.070]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay?
[25:47.990 --> 25:51.650]  [SPEAKER_01]: Once I've bought the ticket, basically, I own that ticket, and I'm free to deal with it as I please.
[25:51.810 --> 25:53.130]  [SPEAKER_01]: I can go to the show or whatever.
[25:53.630 --> 25:56.450]  [SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't say on the back you can't do that, but everybody does it anyway?
[25:57.050 --> 25:58.270]  [SPEAKER_01]: Believe me, they don't really care.
[25:58.330 --> 25:58.730]  [SPEAKER_01]: They don't care.
[25:58.910 --> 25:59.130]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay?
[25:59.430 --> 26:03.370]  [SPEAKER_01]: What they don't want is for you to sell it for $100 and make a huge profit on it.
[26:03.770 --> 26:07.850]  [SPEAKER_01]: In fact, I don't really know why that is either, but that's what they really want to avoid.
[26:07.850 --> 26:10.430]  [SPEAKER_01]: If I turned around and sold it to you for the same price, they wouldn't care.
[26:10.430 --> 26:17.650]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, when a concert is announced, you see the ads in the paper for huge, huge profits, $100 for Billy Joel tickets.
[26:17.770 --> 26:18.070]  [SPEAKER_09]: Oh, yeah.
[26:18.250 --> 26:22.670]  [SPEAKER_09]: And people walk up to the front of the line and buy 100 tickets, and you know they're not taking 100 friends.
[26:23.470 --> 26:23.850]  [SPEAKER_09]: Absolutely.
[26:24.170 --> 26:24.350]  [SPEAKER_09]: Okay.
[26:24.410 --> 26:26.270]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's very clear, and nobody...
[26:26.270 --> 26:27.950]  [SPEAKER_01]: Let's say who's getting hurt here.
[26:28.310 --> 26:28.530]  [SPEAKER_08]: Mm-hmm.
[26:29.630 --> 26:41.610]  [SPEAKER_01]: The fact of the matter is that a number of states, and I think even the federal government now, are looking at going to the airlines and saying, look, it's one thing to sell a non-refundable ticket.
[26:41.610 --> 26:47.410]  [SPEAKER_01]: It is another thing to prevent that passenger from selling that ticket to somebody else or transferring it to somebody else.
[26:47.650 --> 26:52.710]  [SPEAKER_01]: It is currently against the airline's tariff to transfer that ticket to somebody else.
[26:53.630 --> 26:56.750]  [SPEAKER_01]: According to the airlines, if you can't use the ticket, that's too bad.
[26:57.370 --> 26:58.390]  [SPEAKER_01]: You lost your money.
[26:58.590 --> 26:58.770]  [SPEAKER_08]: Mm-hmm.
[26:58.770 --> 26:59.050]  [SPEAKER_01]: Period.
[27:00.010 --> 27:01.830]  [SPEAKER_01]: The states think that that's very unfair.
[27:01.830 --> 27:12.690]  [SPEAKER_01]: The federal government is beginning to look at it, too, and I think that fairly soon, hopefully, if they don't stop the sale of non-refundable tickets altogether, they will at least allow the transfer of these things.
[27:12.890 --> 27:16.910]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, what is it that physically prevents you from transferring a ticket to somebody else?
[27:17.110 --> 27:17.350]  [SPEAKER_01]: Nothing.
[27:17.430 --> 27:20.010]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's just against the airline's condition of carriage.
[27:20.190 --> 27:20.690]  [SPEAKER_01]: But what does that mean?
[27:20.690 --> 27:21.350]  [SPEAKER_09]: Contract of carriage.
[27:21.470 --> 27:23.130]  [SPEAKER_09]: What does that mean to somebody who does it?
[27:23.210 --> 27:24.430]  [SPEAKER_01]: Legally, it's not clear.
[27:24.850 --> 27:25.090]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh-huh.
[27:25.170 --> 27:27.130]  [SPEAKER_01]: It is a very gray area.
[27:28.970 --> 27:35.650]  [SPEAKER_01]: The airlines will do all but come right out and say that their contract of carriage carries the weight of law.
[27:36.690 --> 27:37.590]  [SPEAKER_01]: But as a...
[27:37.590 --> 27:50.270]  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I think as reasonable human beings, we realize that, you know, that contract, which you've never even seen, but is only alluded to on the back of the ticket, probably carries something less than the weight of law.
[27:50.790 --> 27:51.130]  [SPEAKER_08]: Mm-hmm.
[27:51.750 --> 27:57.110]  [SPEAKER_01]: The airlines maintain that they have a real problem if you transfer the ticket, then they don't have an accurate passenger manifest.
[27:58.230 --> 28:05.370]  [SPEAKER_01]: I say that if they allowed the free transfer of tickets, people would be more willing to acknowledge that they did it.
[28:05.470 --> 28:13.450]  [SPEAKER_01]: And if the airlines went on a campaign and encouraged people to register the name, then I think they would do that.
[28:14.050 --> 28:17.370]  [SPEAKER_01]: There is a legitimate reason for having an accurate passenger manifest.
[28:17.630 --> 28:17.930]  [SPEAKER_08]: Mm-hmm.
[28:18.250 --> 28:23.770]  [SPEAKER_01]: If anything should happen to that aircraft, you know, an accident of some kind, it does help to know who was on it.
[28:24.030 --> 28:24.910]  [SPEAKER_01]: There's no question.
[28:25.070 --> 28:28.030]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's a legitimate need.
[28:29.590 --> 28:46.050]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, I think what it really boils down to is the fact that we're dealing with an industry that is so incredibly complicated, the average person has no idea how to get through, you know, all the mumbo-jumbo that's out there, how to comparison shop.
[28:46.470 --> 28:48.030]  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, well, there's no question.
[28:48.090 --> 28:53.630]  [SPEAKER_01]: And one of the things that's really amazing to me is if you call up the reservation clerk, and, you know, anybody can do this tomorrow if they want.
[28:55.650 --> 28:57.170]  [SPEAKER_01]: As a matter of fact, we could even do it here.
[28:57.310 --> 28:58.590]  [SPEAKER_01]: We could call, you know, just to book a...
[28:58.590 --> 29:00.710]  [SPEAKER_01]: to get a fair quote for a trip out to California.
[29:01.130 --> 29:05.290]  [SPEAKER_01]: One of the things you'll find is that we could spend half an hour on the phone just trying to get a quote from the airline.
[29:05.670 --> 29:06.450]  [SPEAKER_01]: It is amazing.
[29:06.450 --> 29:10.970]  [SPEAKER_01]: Because every single little permutation of what we do...
[29:11.430 --> 29:15.090]  [SPEAKER_01]: Gee, maybe I want to go out on the 8 o'clock flight instead of the 9 o'clock flight.
[29:15.110 --> 29:16.210]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's a different price.
[29:16.490 --> 29:18.770]  [SPEAKER_01]: If I change the day, it's a different price.
[29:19.530 --> 29:25.890]  [SPEAKER_09]: I've noticed if I ask for something from different airlines, I tend to get the exact same number with the exact same conditions lots of times.
[29:26.050 --> 29:27.110]  [SPEAKER_01]: Lots of times.
[29:27.290 --> 29:38.190]  [SPEAKER_01]: But if people aren't always careful about what they ask, sometimes they'll say, I specifically want to go out at 9 o'clock and I want to come back, you know, two days later at 10 o'clock in the evening.
[29:38.470 --> 29:42.070]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, now if you do that and you're real specific, most of the time you'll get the same price.
[29:42.070 --> 29:51.610]  [SPEAKER_01]: On the other hand, if you say, I want to go out in the morning and I want to come back sometime late in the afternoon or early evening, two days later, and I want the lowest price, you've now given them a different set of parameters.
[29:51.630 --> 29:53.430]  [SPEAKER_01]: It may sound the same, but it's very different.
[29:53.630 --> 29:54.870]  [SPEAKER_01]: Is it better for you or worse?
[29:55.650 --> 29:56.370]  [SPEAKER_01]: Who knows?
[29:56.570 --> 29:57.650]  [SPEAKER_01]: You have to try it.
[29:57.770 --> 30:11.150]  [SPEAKER_01]: But the most amazing thing is that you can actually tie up a reservations clerk, either at a travel agent or at the airlines directly, for 30, 40, 50, even an hour on the phone, trying to get a price quote.
[30:11.310 --> 30:13.710]  [SPEAKER_01]: It is an amazingly complicated process.
[30:13.910 --> 30:14.970]  [SPEAKER_01]: For them as well as for us.
[30:15.070 --> 30:15.430]  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah.
[30:27.580 --> 30:34.450]  [SPEAKER_01]: And a 21-day advance purchase ticket at $250, but it's non-refundable and it's got these other restrictions.
[30:34.450 --> 30:44.210]  [SPEAKER_01]: And then you could get a full fare ticket that is refundable, but if you make any changes in the reservation, it'll cost you $30, and that's another price.
[30:44.460 --> 30:48.860]  [SPEAKER_01]: And then if you want a fully refundable ticket where there are no penalties, that's an even higher price.
[30:49.040 --> 30:49.620]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's interesting.
[30:49.710 --> 30:59.040]  [SPEAKER_09]: A friend of mine just came out from Amsterdam and he said he was able to get a price of, I think, $300 round trip from Amsterdam to, I believe it was Minneapolis.
[30:59.280 --> 30:59.860]  [SPEAKER_09]: He had to go there.
[30:59.860 --> 31:05.170]  [SPEAKER_09]: And I called the same airline and asked them, what's the fare from Minneapolis to Amsterdam round trip?
[31:05.210 --> 31:07.240]  [SPEAKER_09]: And they gave me a price of something like $875.
[31:07.740 --> 31:10.060]  [SPEAKER_09]: And I asked them, was there any discount anywhere?
[31:10.360 --> 31:12.020]  [SPEAKER_09]: And they said, no, we have no discount.
[31:12.380 --> 31:20.220]  [SPEAKER_09]: So I was wondering, you know, is it possible for me to somehow buy a ticket from Amsterdam and go back before I leave?
[31:20.430 --> 31:22.020]  [SPEAKER_09]: Is it possible to do things like that?
[31:22.020 --> 31:27.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: As a matter of fact, it is possible to do things like that, I've been told.
[31:28.120 --> 31:30.140]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't fully understand it myself.
[31:30.380 --> 31:37.060]  [SPEAKER_01]: However, there is one way to do this that is reasonably easy to understand and the airlines will never tell you about this.
[31:38.320 --> 31:42.720]  [SPEAKER_01]: The airlines are currently flying around with 40% of their seats empty.
[31:43.690 --> 31:43.760]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[31:44.500 --> 31:47.320]  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, times are tough for the airlines, there's no question.
[31:48.580 --> 31:56.860]  [SPEAKER_01]: One of the things that a lot of the airlines do is to sell blocks of tickets, huge numbers of tickets, to an outfit called a consolidator.
[31:57.000 --> 31:58.640]  [SPEAKER_01]: And they sell these tickets wholesale.
[31:59.500 --> 32:03.000]  [SPEAKER_01]: You might consider it to be their bottom level price.
[32:04.830 --> 32:12.400]  [SPEAKER_01]: And the consolidator now is free to resell these tickets to anyone at any time at any price they want.
[32:12.720 --> 32:13.280]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[32:13.450 --> 32:15.320]  [SPEAKER_01]: But the airlines will never tell you this.
[32:15.620 --> 32:23.520]  [SPEAKER_01]: And it is possible to call up a consolidator tomorrow and say, I need to catch a flight from New York to Los Angeles in the evening.
[32:24.140 --> 32:25.190]  [SPEAKER_01]: Do you have any tickets?
[32:25.860 --> 32:27.640]  [SPEAKER_01]: And the consolidator will say yes.
[32:27.800 --> 32:33.930]  [SPEAKER_01]: And you may very well wind up buying a ticket at the 21-day advance purchase price even though you're going the same day.
[32:34.740 --> 32:35.220]  [SPEAKER_09]: I see.
[32:35.720 --> 32:37.380]  [SPEAKER_09]: Wouldn't they want to charge you more, though?
[32:38.080 --> 32:41.520]  [SPEAKER_01]: Not necessarily because that ticket may die by the end of the day.
[32:41.690 --> 32:44.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, if he's got 50 of these tickets left, he wants to sell one in a hurry.
[32:45.100 --> 32:46.860]  [SPEAKER_09]: Oh, so he loses money if he doesn't sell them.
[32:46.860 --> 32:47.640]  [SPEAKER_09]: Oh, sure.
[32:47.930 --> 32:48.340]  [SPEAKER_09]: I see.
[32:48.540 --> 32:48.740]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[32:49.120 --> 32:50.140]  [SPEAKER_09]: Interesting setup there.
[32:50.220 --> 32:51.320]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, very interesting setup.
[32:51.520 --> 32:52.880]  [SPEAKER_09]: Is that legal, that kind of setup?
[32:53.060 --> 32:53.950]  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah, it's perfect.
[32:54.080 --> 32:55.190]  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, the airline sold it to him.
[32:55.320 --> 32:55.710]  [SPEAKER_08]: Mm-hmm.
[32:55.840 --> 32:57.430]  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, to do with as they please.
[32:57.690 --> 33:00.120]  [SPEAKER_01]: But he's transferring the ticket, which goes against their tariff.
[33:01.670 --> 33:02.430]  [SPEAKER_01]: Interesting, yes.
[33:02.430 --> 33:03.140]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's very interesting.
[33:03.140 --> 33:04.170]  [SPEAKER_01]: It is very interesting.
[33:04.300 --> 33:06.000]  [SPEAKER_01]: The airlines can, of course, do whatever they want.
[33:06.320 --> 33:11.600]  [SPEAKER_01]: The airlines also do something which is to set up what they call preferred travel agencies.
[33:12.140 --> 33:12.950]  [SPEAKER_01]: And what are those?
[33:13.400 --> 33:16.380]  [SPEAKER_01]: Preferred travel agencies get a better deal from the airlines.
[33:16.860 --> 33:21.710]  [SPEAKER_01]: They will actually be paying a lower price for the tickets than an unpreferred travel agent.
[33:21.900 --> 33:26.100]  [SPEAKER_01]: And, of course, paying a lower price means you can resell the ticket even cheaper than someone else.
[33:26.780 --> 33:32.320]  [SPEAKER_01]: And if you know that you're dealing with a preferred agency, then you may be able to negotiate a better deal.
[33:32.710 --> 33:33.260]  [SPEAKER_09]: I see.
[33:33.950 --> 33:37.360]  [SPEAKER_09]: We're speaking with Paul Edwards, who is the publisher of Travel Confidential.
[33:37.460 --> 33:41.690]  [SPEAKER_09]: It used to be called Travel Smarter and has been publishing since when?
[33:41.690 --> 33:42.340]  [SPEAKER_09]: Since March.
[33:42.480 --> 33:43.450]  [SPEAKER_09]: Since March of this year.
[33:44.500 --> 33:48.210]  [SPEAKER_09]: He's currently being sued by American Airlines for providing information.
[33:48.360 --> 33:49.460]  [SPEAKER_09]: Now, how do you feel?
[33:49.460 --> 33:55.430]  [SPEAKER_09]: You mentioned that this information is designed for travel agents, but how do you feel if it gets in the hands of the average person?
[33:55.580 --> 33:56.960]  [SPEAKER_09]: Do they have a right to this information?
[33:57.360 --> 33:57.800]  [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.
[33:57.800 --> 34:07.020]  [SPEAKER_01]: The fact of the matter is that, as we said, when American Airlines filed the suit, all of the information in our newsletter comes strictly from publicly available sources.
[34:08.960 --> 34:23.520]  [SPEAKER_01]: Back in the office, we have an ad from the New York Times Sunday Magazine that was published in April of this year that contains all the information that you need to book a discount fair to New York for a show that took place, I think, was either in April or May.
[34:23.680 --> 34:26.060]  [SPEAKER_09]: So this is information that's already published in other magazines.
[34:26.450 --> 34:28.540]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, this was published in the New York Times Sunday Magazine.
[34:28.560 --> 34:30.880]  [SPEAKER_09]: What you're doing is compiling the information into a concise form.
[34:30.880 --> 34:36.480]  [SPEAKER_01]: And American Airlines is telling me that information I got from the New York Times Sunday Magazine is somehow private and confidential.
[34:37.040 --> 34:40.080]  [SPEAKER_09]: Now, let's say that... I'm looking at your magazine now.
[34:40.180 --> 34:44.840]  [SPEAKER_09]: I want to go to, say... I'm looking for... I don't see Los Angeles.
[34:44.980 --> 34:45.840]  [SPEAKER_09]: Why don't I see Los Angeles?
[34:45.840 --> 34:46.280]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's in there.
[34:49.380 --> 34:50.360]  [SPEAKER_09]: Oh, there it is.
[34:50.430 --> 34:50.560]  [SPEAKER_09]: Okay.
[34:50.680 --> 34:51.140]  [SPEAKER_09]: Los Angeles.
[34:51.880 --> 34:56.100]  [SPEAKER_09]: I would expect to pay something like, what, $159 each way now?
[34:57.100 --> 34:58.260]  [SPEAKER_09]: Or something like that?
[34:58.560 --> 34:59.450]  [SPEAKER_09]: That's a regular...
[34:59.450 --> 35:00.960]  [SPEAKER_01]: You've been reading their ads.
[35:01.020 --> 35:02.300]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I just happened to see it.
[35:02.300 --> 35:03.950]  [SPEAKER_01]: Let me tell you about their ads.
[35:04.020 --> 35:04.220]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[35:04.600 --> 35:04.960]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[35:05.120 --> 35:08.080]  [SPEAKER_01]: The ads say $159 to Los Angeles.
[35:09.330 --> 35:15.280]  [SPEAKER_01]: And small type, underneath that it will say, one way based on a round-trip purchase.
[35:15.450 --> 35:16.450]  [SPEAKER_01]: Which means I have to...
[35:16.450 --> 35:18.140]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so now we're up to $318.
[35:18.660 --> 35:18.800]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[35:18.950 --> 35:19.120]  [SPEAKER_01]: All right.
[35:19.620 --> 35:28.960]  [SPEAKER_01]: In an even smaller type, it tells you about the tax they didn't tell you about, the departure fee, the arrival fee, and I'm making some of this up.
[35:29.060 --> 35:31.160]  [SPEAKER_01]: But there's all these other fees in there that I can't even read.
[35:31.280 --> 35:33.040]  [SPEAKER_01]: My vision isn't good enough to read the type.
[35:33.040 --> 35:34.120]  [SPEAKER_09]: So what does it wind up being in the...
[35:34.120 --> 35:37.320]  [SPEAKER_01]: So it winds up being around $330, $340, something like that.
[35:37.520 --> 35:37.780]  [SPEAKER_01]: All right.
[35:38.080 --> 35:38.520]  [SPEAKER_01]: Up from...
[35:38.520 --> 35:42.950]  [SPEAKER_01]: So we're now up to, you know, mid $340, you know, mid $300s up from $159.
[35:46.660 --> 35:54.220]  [SPEAKER_01]: Furthermore, when you call up to book this thing and you tell them you want this price, you learn that, gee, we're all sold out of those seats.
[35:54.580 --> 35:57.100]  [SPEAKER_01]: But we can get you something at around $380 or $400.
[35:58.020 --> 36:01.720]  [SPEAKER_09]: Now, isn't there some kind of a law that says they can't sell out of something that they've advertised?
[36:01.930 --> 36:06.520]  [SPEAKER_09]: Like when you go to the grocery store and they're advertising a certain kind of apple for a certain kind of price.
[36:06.540 --> 36:07.640]  [SPEAKER_09]: They don't have it to give you a range.
[36:07.640 --> 36:21.460]  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, the fact of the matter is that a number of state attorney generals have for years been trying to put an end to this type of advertising on the part of the airlines.
[36:21.460 --> 36:30.680]  [SPEAKER_01]: But they are a national business, and they do not fall under the jurisdiction of the individual states, much less the cities.
[36:31.180 --> 36:41.840]  [SPEAKER_01]: There is no question that if the airlines were operating retail businesses in New York City, that they would have been shut down for deceptive advertising and marketing practices years ago.
[36:41.950 --> 36:42.930]  [SPEAKER_01]: There's no question of that.
[36:43.160 --> 36:45.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, this is... in New York City, you call this bait and switch.
[36:47.930 --> 36:48.400]  [SPEAKER_01]: But...
[36:48.400 --> 36:49.700]  [SPEAKER_09]: So continue with your example.
[36:49.700 --> 36:51.720]  [SPEAKER_09]: They say, now we have another...
[36:51.720 --> 36:56.060]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so we don't have any of those cheap seats left because we only set aside so many and those sold out.
[36:57.000 --> 36:59.780]  [SPEAKER_01]: And nobody ever knows how many they actually set aside.
[37:00.960 --> 37:04.360]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I suspect it could be as little as two or three on any given flight.
[37:04.680 --> 37:11.040]  [SPEAKER_09]: Sometimes they say, well, we have one left, so you have to make up your mind right now because if you hang up and call back, certainly it will be sold.
[37:11.100 --> 37:13.560]  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, it could be... while you're making up your mind, it could be sold.
[37:13.720 --> 37:13.800]  [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[37:23.000 --> 37:24.900]  [SPEAKER_01]: So anyway, they've got more expensive seats.
[37:25.060 --> 37:34.240]  [SPEAKER_01]: And what happens is that, you know, you saw the ad the night before, you decided you were going to take your summer vacation, and you get all psyched up for this thing, and you wind up taking it anyway, but at a higher price.
[37:34.950 --> 37:40.930]  [SPEAKER_01]: The other thing that's very interesting about that is that, let's say, that you really only need to go from New York to Los Angeles.
[37:41.040 --> 37:45.680]  [SPEAKER_01]: So you figure, well, at least I can get there for $159 plus the tax and everything else.
[37:46.180 --> 37:47.120]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh-uh.
[37:47.380 --> 37:47.980]  [SPEAKER_01]: No way.
[37:48.240 --> 37:54.240]  [SPEAKER_01]: The fact of the matter is that the one-way ticket price is more like $700 or $800.
[37:56.020 --> 37:56.500]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[37:57.100 --> 38:02.840]  [SPEAKER_01]: Actually, it's probably $800 or $900 because a one-way ticket is more expensive...
[38:04.540 --> 38:05.200]  [SPEAKER_01]: Excuse me.
[38:05.700 --> 38:07.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: ...is often more expensive than a round trip.
[38:07.760 --> 38:09.460]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, I've noticed that, too, and I can't figure that out.
[38:09.600 --> 38:12.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, the airlines have a very interesting philosophy about that.
[38:13.140 --> 38:19.700]  [SPEAKER_01]: Um, the smart consumer looks at it and says, Hmm, the one-way ticket's more expensive than the round trip.
[38:20.220 --> 38:23.520]  [SPEAKER_01]: Why don't I buy the round trip, and I just won't use half of it?
[38:24.920 --> 38:26.980]  [SPEAKER_01]: The airlines say, That's not allowed.
[38:27.520 --> 38:27.960]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh-huh.
[38:28.060 --> 38:30.520]  [SPEAKER_01]: And if they catch you doing that, they will charge you the difference.
[38:30.800 --> 38:32.440]  [SPEAKER_09]: How can they catch you not taking a plane?
[38:32.900 --> 38:36.500]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, well, they know they sold you two tickets, and if after a certain period of time...
[38:36.500 --> 38:37.920]  [SPEAKER_09]: If you're not on the plane, they're going to come after you or something?
[38:37.920 --> 38:38.280]  [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[38:38.860 --> 38:43.020]  [SPEAKER_01]: If after a certain period of time, they see that the coupon wasn't used, then they know what you did.
[38:43.440 --> 38:46.300]  [SPEAKER_01]: And they'll come back and demand, you know, that you make up the difference.
[38:46.500 --> 38:47.280]  [SPEAKER_09]: That actually happens.
[38:47.380 --> 38:47.920]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, it does.
[38:48.420 --> 38:50.720]  [SPEAKER_01]: And, um, I like in this sort of, um...
[38:50.720 --> 38:54.760]  [SPEAKER_01]: We've got a four-year-old little boy named Brian who likes to go to Pizza Hut.
[38:55.520 --> 38:58.980]  [SPEAKER_01]: And, uh, every once in a while, you go into a Pizza Hut, and they got a two-for-one deal.
[38:59.480 --> 38:59.900]  [SPEAKER_01]: All right?
[39:00.420 --> 39:03.260]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, or, you know, or buy one and get another one for a dollar.
[39:03.560 --> 39:04.480]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, uh, okay.
[39:04.740 --> 39:06.560]  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, we all go out there, and we get the two pizzas.
[39:07.920 --> 39:12.100]  [SPEAKER_01]: And being the typical four-year-old, uh, you know, takes a bite and a half and says, I'm finished.
[39:13.340 --> 39:15.680]  [SPEAKER_01]: So we got this extra pizza sitting there untouched, right?
[39:15.860 --> 39:16.040]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh-huh.
[39:16.360 --> 39:20.260]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now the waitress comes around and says, uh-uh, uh-uh, you didn't eat your ex.
[39:20.320 --> 39:21.320]  [SPEAKER_01]: You didn't eat the second pizza.
[39:21.520 --> 39:22.540]  [SPEAKER_01]: We're going to charge you more.
[39:23.440 --> 39:24.100]  [SPEAKER_09]: You're kidding.
[39:24.500 --> 39:25.980]  [SPEAKER_01]: I am kidding about Pizza Hut.
[39:26.060 --> 39:26.200]  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, okay.
[39:26.380 --> 39:29.520]  [SPEAKER_01]: But if American Airlines was running Pizza Hut, that's exactly what they do.
[39:29.560 --> 39:30.260]  [SPEAKER_09]: I would have done an ex-rosee on that if that was true.
[39:31.860 --> 39:34.100]  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that's American Airlines philosophy.
[39:34.880 --> 39:36.840]  [SPEAKER_09]: All right, so let me go back to the magazine here.
[39:36.840 --> 39:44.180]  [SPEAKER_09]: Now, okay, I could really get ripped off, as your point, with, uh, if I buy a ticket the usual way.
[39:44.260 --> 39:52.640]  [SPEAKER_09]: But if I looked in this, and I saw the event, and I saw the various, um, uh, where's a particular code word?
[39:52.840 --> 39:54.860]  [SPEAKER_09]: There was an example of what a code word would be.
[39:55.720 --> 39:58.780]  [SPEAKER_01]: I hesitate to, uh, you'll forgive me, I hesitate to use them codes.
[39:58.900 --> 40:00.080]  [SPEAKER_01]: They don't even call them codes.
[40:00.180 --> 40:01.400]  [SPEAKER_09]: I don't even see any, to be honest.
[40:01.400 --> 40:06.960]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, they're called reference numbers, and, uh, if we, um, you were at Los Angeles, we'll go back there.
[40:08.360 --> 40:12.840]  [SPEAKER_01]: Um, and, uh, if you look at Los Angeles, uh, you got the June issue there?
[40:13.020 --> 40:14.980]  [SPEAKER_09]: I have the, uh, May issue.
[40:15.040 --> 40:15.300]  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, May?
[40:15.900 --> 40:16.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: Um...
[40:16.340 --> 40:17.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'll pick one of those up.
[40:21.990 --> 40:23.530]  [SPEAKER_01]: And, uh, turn to...
[40:23.530 --> 40:24.110]  [SPEAKER_01]: Page 10.
[40:24.350 --> 40:25.210]  [SPEAKER_01]: Page 10.
[40:26.730 --> 40:29.630]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, let's, we'll take a look at the first listing for Los Angeles.
[40:29.870 --> 40:34.210]  [SPEAKER_01]: This is a May issue, and the first listing under Los Angeles is May 3rd to May 5th.
[40:35.070 --> 40:36.030]  [SPEAKER_01]: And, uh...
[40:36.030 --> 40:37.190]  [SPEAKER_09]: Contact Lynn Symposium.
[40:37.330 --> 40:37.510]  [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[40:37.770 --> 40:38.130]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[40:38.370 --> 40:38.570]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[40:38.970 --> 40:41.190]  [SPEAKER_01]: Um, that's one of the reasons we sell this newsletter, too.
[40:41.270 --> 40:43.550]  [SPEAKER_01]: There are people who like to go to all different kinds of meetings.
[40:43.790 --> 40:44.010]  [SPEAKER_08]: Mm-hmm.
[40:44.390 --> 40:44.670]  [SPEAKER_01]: Really.
[40:45.170 --> 40:47.770]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, you'll notice that the airline listed here is U.S.
[40:47.870 --> 40:48.090]  [SPEAKER_01]: Air.
[40:48.370 --> 40:57.170]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, we give you their 800 phone number for making reservations, along with the gold file number, which in this case is number 673518.
[40:57.550 --> 40:59.150]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, if I'm going to the contact...
[40:59.150 --> 41:04.750]  [SPEAKER_01]: Or if I was going to the Contact Lynn Symposium, what I would have done would be to call U.S.
[41:04.750 --> 41:17.210]  [SPEAKER_01]: Air at that 800 number, and I would have said, I'm going out to Los Angeles, uh, possibly on May 2nd, the day before the show, uh, and I'll be returning, um, even May 8th, well, several days beyond the show.
[41:17.330 --> 41:18.970]  [SPEAKER_01]: I want to spend some time at, uh, Disneyland.
[41:19.550 --> 41:19.930]  Disneyland.
[41:20.270 --> 41:26.410]  [SPEAKER_01]: And, uh, uh, I wish to, you know, I want to book this using your gold file number 673518.
[41:27.270 --> 41:30.010]  [SPEAKER_01]: And, uh, they'll, uh, look it up in the computer.
[41:30.370 --> 41:34.810]  [SPEAKER_01]: They'll, you know, they'll type in the file number, and they'll say, that's the Contact Lynn Symposium.
[41:35.010 --> 41:35.790]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I'll say, right.
[41:35.970 --> 41:38.510]  [SPEAKER_01]: And then we'll proceed to book the flight just as I ask.
[41:38.890 --> 41:39.250]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay?
[41:39.430 --> 41:44.910]  [SPEAKER_01]: And having given them that file number, uh, they will, they will, uh, give me the discount that I'm entitled to.
[41:45.470 --> 41:46.030]  [SPEAKER_08]: I see.
[41:46.030 --> 41:47.330]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's, it is that simple.
[41:47.690 --> 41:58.330]  [SPEAKER_01]: One of the things that we've pointed out here, and, uh, the airlines don't deny this, and this is why we don't feel that we've done anything wrong, the airlines will never ask you, are you going to the Contact Lynn Symposium?
[41:58.790 --> 41:59.130]  [SPEAKER_08]: Mm-hmm.
[41:59.130 --> 42:01.230]  [SPEAKER_01]: They will never ask if you're a member of the group.
[42:01.950 --> 42:02.110]  [SPEAKER_08]: Mm-hmm.
[42:02.230 --> 42:03.610]  [SPEAKER_01]: Do you think they might start asking that?
[42:04.330 --> 42:05.990]  [SPEAKER_01]: I, I don't see why they wouldn't.
[42:06.210 --> 42:08.490]  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I, this is, this is absurd.
[42:08.690 --> 42:13.670]  [SPEAKER_01]: Why, I mean, the fact of the matter is that there is a valid use for this information.
[42:13.670 --> 42:17.050]  [SPEAKER_01]: We saw it as a valuable resource for many people in the business.
[42:17.210 --> 42:20.450]  [SPEAKER_01]: We did not start this to defraud American or any other airline.
[42:21.290 --> 42:30.450]  [SPEAKER_01]: And what we're saying to them is that if you are concerned about people misusing these discounts, then you should police your own system.
[42:30.670 --> 42:35.150]  [SPEAKER_01]: You are the ones who have been disseminating this information through public channels.
[42:35.150 --> 42:38.850]  [SPEAKER_01]: All we've done is to compile it in one place.
[42:39.950 --> 42:41.770]  [SPEAKER_01]: We happen to be very good researchers.
[42:41.770 --> 42:42.810]  [SPEAKER_01]: We know where to look.
[42:42.910 --> 42:48.110]  [SPEAKER_01]: But we haven't been out to Dallas and gone through their headquarters or their computer or gone through their garbage.
[42:49.150 --> 43:00.830]  [SPEAKER_01]: My wife and I spent a couple hours in Tower Books downtown over the weekend, and we bought $50 worth of magazines and walked out of there with over 400 events and reference numbers.
[43:01.830 --> 43:04.710]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's how difficult this information is to find.
[43:05.150 --> 43:07.230]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's how private this information is.
[43:07.570 --> 43:12.190]  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, in three hours in Tower Books, we found enough material to fill up an entire issue of my newsletter.
[43:12.730 --> 43:13.830]  [SPEAKER_01]: What did I do wrong?
[43:14.330 --> 43:15.670]  [SPEAKER_09]: That is public information.
[43:15.850 --> 43:16.970]  [SPEAKER_09]: That's public information.
[43:18.190 --> 43:24.590]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's interesting because you mentioned computers, and I can't help but notice the article in the New York Times last Thursday.
[43:25.030 --> 43:30.550]  [SPEAKER_09]: It says Mr. Edwards said he had compiled the code numbers by getting on mailing lists, tapping into computer databases.
[43:30.650 --> 43:31.930]  [SPEAKER_09]: Now, that sounds so nefarious.
[43:32.050 --> 43:33.570]  [SPEAKER_01]: As a matter of fact, not only...
[43:33.570 --> 43:38.690]  [SPEAKER_01]: That actually bothered me because, actually, that's the one thing where I was misquoted in the article.
[43:39.010 --> 43:45.390]  [SPEAKER_01]: What I said to the reporter for the Associated Press, whose story that is, was that I did not get it from computers.
[43:45.670 --> 43:47.030]  [SPEAKER_09]: And he just left out the nut.
[43:47.170 --> 43:47.330]  [SPEAKER_09]: Right.
[43:47.450 --> 43:47.850]  [SPEAKER_09]: I see.
[43:48.050 --> 43:48.250]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[43:48.710 --> 43:49.790]  [SPEAKER_01]: We use computers.
[43:49.790 --> 43:57.450]  [SPEAKER_01]: Back in the office, I mean, the entire newsletter is desktop-published, and we maintain all the information in a database, and we've put a lot of work into that.
[43:57.450 --> 44:12.970]  [SPEAKER_01]: But the fact of the matter is that although I am sure I could find some of this information on Prodigy or CompuServe or some of the other publicly accessible databases, and that would be perfectly legitimate if I did, by the way, frankly, I don't do it.
[44:13.790 --> 44:23.910]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not a skilled searcher on computer databases, and we have found that going through magazines and newspapers is easier for us and very productive.
[44:25.550 --> 44:36.630]  [SPEAKER_01]: So that's the one thing where I was misquoted, and it bothers me a little bit because, as you say, yes, even though that could be perfectly legitimate, it does have a nefarious ring to it.
[44:36.770 --> 44:38.250]  [SPEAKER_01]: And actually, that's pretty interesting.
[44:38.450 --> 44:42.990]  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, why is it that if you say you went through a computer database, it has that nefarious tone to it?
[44:43.070 --> 44:45.050]  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, there's no reason for that.
[44:45.050 --> 44:52.270]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, that's part of the whole misunderstanding of the hacker culture and technology in general, kind of a fear of technology, I would say.
[44:52.630 --> 44:57.390]  [SPEAKER_09]: We're going to be taking phone calls at 212-279-3400.
[44:58.190 --> 45:04.710]  [SPEAKER_09]: We're speaking with Paul Edwards, who is the editor and publisher of Travel Confidential.
[45:05.390 --> 45:08.370]  [SPEAKER_09]: And I guess, if it's all right, I can give out your address and phone number?
[45:08.430 --> 45:08.910]  [SPEAKER_09]: Oh, absolutely.
[45:09.110 --> 45:09.270]  [SPEAKER_09]: Okay.
[45:10.590 --> 45:14.370]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's published at 88 Bleecker Street, New York, New York, 10012.
[45:14.870 --> 45:18.950]  [SPEAKER_09]: Telephone number, 212-254-1069.
[45:20.690 --> 45:22.930]  [SPEAKER_09]: And all kinds of information.
[45:23.390 --> 45:25.450]  [SPEAKER_09]: It doesn't look like you do international information.
[45:25.690 --> 45:29.290]  [SPEAKER_01]: No, we really don't have any international material at this time.
[45:29.590 --> 45:30.630]  [SPEAKER_01]: You plan on expanding into that?
[45:30.630 --> 45:31.670]  [SPEAKER_01]: We're looking at it.
[45:31.790 --> 45:32.510]  [SPEAKER_01]: We're working on it.
[45:33.590 --> 45:38.470]  [SPEAKER_01]: This type of information is available, but it is very difficult to find.
[45:40.090 --> 45:45.770]  [SPEAKER_09]: I find it incredible how many people will pay a huge amount or think.
[45:45.770 --> 45:48.670]  [SPEAKER_09]: They won't go somewhere because they think they have to pay a huge amount to get there.
[45:48.790 --> 45:50.790]  [SPEAKER_09]: And that includes overseas as well as here.
[45:51.190 --> 46:07.210]  [SPEAKER_09]: And as you say, if you just look around a little bit, and I never actually use the system where you say you're going to a show or whatever, or where you go to a trade fair or any kind of discount like that, I just look around and find little tiny ads,
[46:07.330 --> 46:08.970]  [SPEAKER_09]: really tiny ones you need a microscope for.
[46:09.670 --> 46:14.250]  [SPEAKER_09]: And you can find things occasionally that just aren't advertised anyplace else.
[46:14.430 --> 46:14.710]  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah.
[46:14.850 --> 46:20.490]  [SPEAKER_01]: And the thing is that Americans say that they know that people have taken advantage of these types of fares before.
[46:20.910 --> 46:23.610]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now I've created a manual for cheating the airline.
[46:24.210 --> 46:30.050]  [SPEAKER_01]: I think you can see just looking through it, there isn't one word in the newsletter that tells you how to cheat the airline.
[46:30.470 --> 46:32.330]  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, we've just provided the information.
[46:32.350 --> 46:33.910]  [SPEAKER_09]: There are funnier ways to cheat the airline, I would imagine.
[46:33.910 --> 46:34.550]  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, there are.
[46:34.590 --> 46:39.170]  [SPEAKER_01]: And there are other books that do that, which is also one of the reasons we're wondering how come we're getting sued here.
[46:39.970 --> 46:47.590]  [SPEAKER_01]: Consumer Reports Travel Letter, which is a well-respected newsletter in the field, periodically does print articles on how to beat the system.
[46:47.890 --> 46:53.270]  [SPEAKER_01]: And they will talk about things like using meeting and convention fares and how to use them to beat the system.
[46:53.890 --> 46:59.250]  [SPEAKER_01]: They will talk about using hidden cities to beat the airlines or back-to-back ticket splitting.
[46:59.670 --> 47:03.670]  [SPEAKER_01]: And these are all other things in the airline fare structure that...
[47:03.670 --> 47:03.950]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'll tell you.
[47:04.630 --> 47:07.990]  [SPEAKER_01]: And we'll give an example that's kind of, you know, a local nature.
[47:08.950 --> 47:13.090]  [SPEAKER_01]: Suppose we want to go out to Chicago, all right, and we've got to go tomorrow.
[47:13.390 --> 47:16.050]  [SPEAKER_01]: All right, we call up and they tell us the fare is $850.
[47:16.790 --> 47:17.630]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's a lot of money.
[47:19.230 --> 47:23.810]  [SPEAKER_01]: Turns out that the same airplane that's going to take us to Chicago continues on to Kansas City.
[47:24.550 --> 47:25.330]  [SPEAKER_01]: I've heard of this.
[47:25.470 --> 47:25.650]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[47:25.930 --> 47:30.150]  [SPEAKER_01]: And it also turns out that the fare to Kansas City is only $400 or $500.
[47:30.610 --> 47:31.850]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm making that number up.
[47:31.950 --> 47:33.650]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm really not sure what it is, but it's lower.
[47:33.910 --> 47:35.510]  [SPEAKER_09]: So the fare to the further city is lower than the fare to the further city.
[47:35.570 --> 47:37.670]  [SPEAKER_09]: I can never understand why that is in the first place.
[47:38.290 --> 47:42.090]  [SPEAKER_01]: It'd be interesting to get somebody from one of the airlines on here to explain it to us, but...
[47:43.330 --> 47:44.950]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I won't attempt it.
[47:45.030 --> 47:46.150]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's beyond me.
[47:46.230 --> 47:48.210]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's like the fee for touchstones makes no sense whatsoever.
[47:48.930 --> 47:49.650]  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, sure.
[47:49.830 --> 47:52.030]  [SPEAKER_01]: Or electronic banking, for that matter.
[47:52.030 --> 47:56.510]  [SPEAKER_01]: Why should I pay money to get a service in my house that actually helps the bank save money?
[47:56.630 --> 47:56.930]  [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.
[47:58.150 --> 48:00.030]  [SPEAKER_01]: And so I refuse to do that.
[48:00.210 --> 48:03.910]  [SPEAKER_09]: So now the airlines say it's illegal for you to go to one city...
[48:03.910 --> 48:04.150]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yes, and you know why?
[48:04.270 --> 48:09.090]  [SPEAKER_01]: This is another case of you didn't use everything you bought, so we're going to charge you extra.
[48:10.110 --> 48:14.930]  [SPEAKER_01]: You bought two coupons, one from New York to Chicago, the second from Chicago to Kansas City.
[48:15.310 --> 48:19.590]  [SPEAKER_01]: You didn't use the second one, so you've cheated us and you owe us more money.
[48:20.430 --> 48:26.470]  [SPEAKER_01]: Can you imagine if you bought an automobile and GM came after you two weeks later and said, you know, you haven't been driving this, you'll have to pay more?
[48:27.750 --> 48:30.210]  [SPEAKER_01]: It is... I mean, it's an amazing mentality.
[48:32.470 --> 48:36.590]  [SPEAKER_01]: And... but they will catch you occasionally doing Hidden Cities and they will make you pay the difference.
[48:37.570 --> 48:43.750]  [SPEAKER_09]: We're taking phone calls at 279-3400, speaking with Paul Edwards, the editor and publisher of Travel Confidential.
[48:43.850 --> 48:44.470]  [SPEAKER_09]: Let's see who's out there.
[48:44.970 --> 48:45.630]  [SPEAKER_09]: Good evening.
[48:45.930 --> 48:47.170]  [SPEAKER_02]: Hi, it's a great program.
[48:47.450 --> 48:49.570]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, the first question is...
[48:49.570 --> 48:52.490]  [SPEAKER_02]: also cross-references some computer hackers.
[48:53.010 --> 49:02.010]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, one of the major computer makers has a travel service on their, um...
[49:02.010 --> 49:03.310]  [SPEAKER_02]: free, or...
[49:03.310 --> 49:04.550]  [SPEAKER_02]: it's not really a free thing.
[49:05.530 --> 49:07.210]  [SPEAKER_02]: When you come online with their...
[49:07.210 --> 49:09.150]  [SPEAKER_02]: their sort of computer...
[49:09.150 --> 49:10.890]  [SPEAKER_02]: should I say the name of the computer?
[49:10.990 --> 49:12.170]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, I think you just did, didn't you?
[49:13.050 --> 49:14.430]  [SPEAKER_02]: No, actually, it's not computer.
[49:14.730 --> 49:15.150]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's not IBM.
[49:15.150 --> 49:16.150]  [SPEAKER_02]: I think you're referring to Prodigy.
[49:16.270 --> 49:17.170]  [SPEAKER_09]: Are you referring to Prodigy?
[49:17.290 --> 49:17.570]  [SPEAKER_02]: No.
[49:18.650 --> 49:19.370]  [SPEAKER_09]: America Online.
[49:20.050 --> 49:20.710]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, no.
[49:20.790 --> 49:22.270]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's part of the Apple group.
[49:22.790 --> 49:24.070]  [SPEAKER_02]: So I guess I've just said it.
[49:24.290 --> 49:24.810]  [SPEAKER_09]: Part of the Apple?
[49:24.830 --> 49:25.530]  [SPEAKER_09]: I don't know that one.
[49:25.530 --> 49:26.550]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, Apple has...
[49:26.550 --> 49:32.170]  [SPEAKER_02]: When you sign on to Apple, Apple Link has a system where you can book your own airline tickets.
[49:32.770 --> 49:43.230]  [SPEAKER_02]: And if you're a bit diligent once you get into the link and you keep hacking away or looking and searching, you can find the lowest fare.
[49:43.790 --> 49:48.970]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I found fares that, like you were saying, like to, let's say, Cleveland.
[49:49.270 --> 49:51.930]  [SPEAKER_02]: Normal Cleveland fare would be $319.
[49:52.290 --> 50:01.490]  [SPEAKER_02]: I've found fares to Cleveland that I booked through the Apple link that I booked myself for $99 each way.
[50:01.770 --> 50:03.570]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, my question is...
[50:03.570 --> 50:06.250]  [SPEAKER_09]: That still seems incredibly expensive considering you wind up in Cleveland.
[50:06.510 --> 50:07.230]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, that's true.
[50:07.390 --> 50:08.910]  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I was just using it as an example.
[50:10.630 --> 50:11.910]  [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't go to Cleveland.
[50:12.030 --> 50:12.710]  [SPEAKER_02]: I went someplace else.
[50:12.870 --> 50:13.150]  [SPEAKER_09]: Okay.
[50:13.630 --> 50:14.030]  [SPEAKER_02]: But...
[50:14.030 --> 50:14.330]  [SPEAKER_09]: Now, wait.
[50:14.370 --> 50:14.830]  [SPEAKER_09]: I'm just curious.
[50:15.010 --> 50:18.590]  [SPEAKER_09]: How were you able to find this information just by listing everything?
[50:18.590 --> 50:18.970]  [SPEAKER_09]: Okay.
[50:19.130 --> 50:23.130]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, first of all, on the Apple link, there's a travel section.
[50:23.370 --> 50:28.890]  [SPEAKER_02]: And then you call up the travel menu from the Apple link, and it tells you the airlines that are flying.
[50:29.110 --> 50:33.970]  [SPEAKER_02]: Then it calls you, it calls up all the airlines that fly from New York, Chicago, etc., etc., etc.
[50:33.970 --> 50:36.930]  [SPEAKER_02]: And let's suppose you wanted to go to Mexico.
[50:37.590 --> 50:40.130]  [SPEAKER_02]: So you call up the airlines that go into Mexico.
[50:40.130 --> 50:42.810]  [SPEAKER_02]: Then you find out which airline you want to go into Mexico.
[50:43.030 --> 50:44.710]  [SPEAKER_02]: So then you call.
[50:45.010 --> 50:48.750]  [SPEAKER_02]: Hi, you do go to Mexicana Airlines, American, etc., Pan Am.
[50:48.970 --> 50:50.810]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we have a fare that's such and such.
[50:51.010 --> 50:59.610]  [SPEAKER_02]: And so the time that we went to the fare for, I think it was four of us, was something like, for the adults, it was over $800.
[50:59.830 --> 51:02.990]  [SPEAKER_02]: For the children, it was a lot less.
[51:02.990 --> 51:12.470]  [SPEAKER_02]: So what I did is I searched around with the Apple link, and I found that I could get the kids going for something like, it was $200 round trip.
[51:13.490 --> 51:16.830]  [SPEAKER_02]: And these are approximations just in terms of rounding off the numbers.
[51:17.330 --> 51:26.070]  [SPEAKER_02]: And for myself and the other adult, it was $400 round trip.
[51:26.070 --> 51:33.490]  [SPEAKER_02]: So the whole trip that would have been booked through a travel agency would cost $2,200.
[51:34.130 --> 51:36.630]  [SPEAKER_02]: Through the airlines, it was a little bit less.
[51:37.230 --> 51:49.530]  [SPEAKER_02]: We, through Apple link, found, just by searching and keep looking in, once you pulled up the travel screen, we found fares that were $400 round trip for both of us, and $200 for the kids.
[51:49.530 --> 51:51.190]  [SPEAKER_02]: So that's, what was that, $1,000?
[51:52.210 --> 51:56.550]  [SPEAKER_02]: So we saved $1,900 without going to the travel agency.
[51:56.690 --> 51:57.910]  [SPEAKER_02]: So my question is this.
[52:01.840 --> 52:10.100]  [SPEAKER_02]: Is that service, the preferred travel or the travel agency, the preferred travel agency, or the consolidated, is some way linked with that?
[52:10.140 --> 52:14.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: Or is this something new that I brought to the attention of the audience and you also?
[52:14.520 --> 52:16.320]  [SPEAKER_09]: Okay, I'll let him answer your question on the radio.
[52:16.500 --> 52:17.000]  [SPEAKER_09]: Thanks for calling.
[52:17.940 --> 52:20.880]  [SPEAKER_01]: No, there really isn't anything new here.
[52:20.920 --> 52:23.660]  [SPEAKER_01]: As a matter of fact, you can get into other similar kinds of services.
[52:24.140 --> 52:26.960]  [SPEAKER_01]: American Airlines Easy Sabre is available through Prodigy.
[52:27.140 --> 52:30.240]  [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's also available on CompuServe, if I'm not mistaken.
[52:30.740 --> 52:34.720]  [SPEAKER_01]: You can go through these things and you can pull up all kinds of very low fares.
[52:35.300 --> 52:40.680]  [SPEAKER_01]: The problem, usually, with the very low fares that you'll see, and for example, this is real.
[52:40.680 --> 52:47.320]  [SPEAKER_01]: So if you look at Chicago, you'll see fares listed in these systems anywhere from $850 round trip down to about $179.
[52:48.360 --> 52:56.160]  [SPEAKER_01]: The trouble is when you try to book the $179 fare, it can be very difficult to actually obtain it because there are so many weird restrictions that are involved.
[52:56.320 --> 53:07.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: And it could be that there's just one flight going out on a Tuesday morning at 3 o'clock in the morning and just one flight coming back a week after the following Thursday coming back that will actually get you that fare.
[53:08.520 --> 53:10.780]  [SPEAKER_01]: And this can drive you absolutely bananas.
[53:11.000 --> 53:18.700]  [SPEAKER_01]: One of the things that I think most people find objectionable to doing this themselves is that it truly drives you crazy.
[53:18.700 --> 53:21.500]  [SPEAKER_01]: You can spend an hour online trying to book one flight.
[53:22.260 --> 53:24.540]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's incredible because I never do that kind of thing.
[53:24.620 --> 53:27.420]  [SPEAKER_09]: I always figure out ways to just, you know, as you say...
[53:27.420 --> 53:40.200]  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, certainly the business traveler who is interested, you know, in saving time and maintaining flexibility is more interested in picking up the phone, calling the travel agents and saying, go to Chicago next week, book the flight, call me back when you got it.
[53:40.480 --> 53:42.360]  [SPEAKER_01]: They want to take care of that in one minute.
[53:43.220 --> 53:51.420]  [SPEAKER_01]: Even the consumer rarely has the time to spend more than, you know, a half hour or so on taking care of these kinds of arrangements.
[53:52.080 --> 53:53.680]  [SPEAKER_01]: And that's the trouble with this stuff.
[53:54.100 --> 53:56.480]  [SPEAKER_01]: Not that it's not available, it's just not...
[53:57.660 --> 54:05.680]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, it's accessible, but it's so difficult and time-consuming that that kind of plays off against its accessibility.
[54:06.000 --> 54:13.500]  [SPEAKER_09]: One thing I always enjoy doing is strolling up and down the aisles, asking people what they paid for their tickets, and you get such incredibly... incredible variation.
[54:13.500 --> 54:16.060]  [SPEAKER_09]: Some people pay $850, some people pay $99.
[54:16.640 --> 54:18.920]  [SPEAKER_09]: Some people are on for free for some promotional thing.
[54:18.920 --> 54:26.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know that there's necessarily any truth to this, but one of my subscribers told me a story, and he said, you know, he said, do you know why the airlines created business class?
[54:27.100 --> 54:29.360]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I said, no, and I really don't.
[54:29.900 --> 54:40.040]  [SPEAKER_01]: And he said, well, he says, I'm firmly convinced that the reason the airlines created business class was to prevent the sucker who paid the full fare from sitting next to somebody who paid 20% of it.
[54:42.120 --> 54:43.540]  [SPEAKER_09]: 212-279-3400.
[54:43.720 --> 54:44.120]  [SPEAKER_09]: Good evening.
[54:44.520 --> 54:45.440]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, I have a question.
[54:45.620 --> 54:45.940]  [SPEAKER_09]: Go ahead.
[54:46.960 --> 54:47.820]  [SPEAKER_03]: Can we just cut the radio?
[54:49.380 --> 54:50.500]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yes, turn down your radio.
[54:51.740 --> 54:52.980]  [SPEAKER_09]: Always a good rule of thumb.
[54:53.940 --> 54:54.760]  [SPEAKER_03]: And sorry about that.
[54:54.800 --> 54:55.140]  [SPEAKER_03]: That's okay.
[54:55.140 --> 54:56.100]  [SPEAKER_03]: I didn't know how we'd get so quickly on.
[54:56.340 --> 54:57.320]  [SPEAKER_09]: Okay, what's your question?
[54:57.440 --> 55:09.060]  [SPEAKER_03]: My question is, why can't people like, let's say, real estate agents, you know, become certified travel agents and just go that direction and, you know, get low fares?
[55:09.820 --> 55:23.320]  [SPEAKER_03]: Because I saw a learning annex, or I shouldn't say the name, but, you know, there's a way to get certification, like in Northern Republic, that you can just get certification somehow for a very little money, like a few hundred dollars, and then, you know,
[55:23.340 --> 55:26.660]  [SPEAKER_03]: use that, you know, the discount to just book your fares.
[55:26.660 --> 55:30.660]  [SPEAKER_09]: So your question is, why can you not become a travel agent yourself to get those good fares?
[55:30.880 --> 55:31.480]  [SPEAKER_03]: Right, uh-huh.
[55:31.740 --> 55:33.100]  [SPEAKER_09]: Okay, well, answer it on the radio.
[55:33.100 --> 55:33.720]  [SPEAKER_09]: Thanks for calling.
[55:34.360 --> 55:39.080]  [SPEAKER_01]: The fact of the matter is that many people in the travel agency business have gone into it just for that reason.
[55:41.500 --> 55:52.260]  [SPEAKER_01]: They hardly make any money at all as an agent, but they're getting a lot of freebies back from hotels and the airlines, and they use that to, you know, do a lot of their own personal travel.
[55:53.140 --> 55:55.700]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, yes, lots of people really do do that.
[55:56.480 --> 55:57.080]  [SPEAKER_01]: Good evening.
[55:57.600 --> 55:57.960]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, hi.
[55:58.880 --> 56:03.660]  [SPEAKER_10]: Last week you mentioned something about a hackers meeting on Fridays.
[56:03.940 --> 56:05.580]  [SPEAKER_09]: I'll mention that again at the end of this show.
[56:05.720 --> 56:06.940]  [SPEAKER_09]: Do you have a question regarding this?
[56:06.940 --> 56:11.640]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, yeah, I was also wondering if you mentioned the address and everything, what's the cost for the newsletter?
[56:12.000 --> 56:16.720]  [SPEAKER_01]: Um, we publish every month, and a one-year, 12-issue subscription is $95.
[56:17.600 --> 56:18.940]  [SPEAKER_10]: Sounds like an interesting thing.
[56:19.140 --> 56:19.940]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, thanks a lot.
[56:20.060 --> 56:20.500]  [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for calling.
[56:21.520 --> 56:22.140]  [SPEAKER_09]: Good evening.
[56:23.780 --> 56:24.180]  [SPEAKER_09]: Hello?
[56:25.260 --> 56:26.240]  [SPEAKER_09]: Is anybody there?
[56:26.920 --> 56:27.220]  [SPEAKER_09]: Hello?
[56:27.780 --> 56:28.340]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, go ahead.
[56:28.440 --> 56:29.000]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, yeah, okay.
[56:29.260 --> 56:30.120]  [SPEAKER_04]: I just shut the radio.
[56:30.200 --> 56:30.560]  [SPEAKER_04]: You hear me?
[56:30.620 --> 56:31.480]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, I hear you just fine.
[56:31.560 --> 56:34.340]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, the gentleman mentioned something.
[56:36.140 --> 56:37.440]  [SPEAKER_09]: I'm going to hear you fine, too.
[56:37.500 --> 56:37.940]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, yeah, I'm turning the radio again.
[56:38.040 --> 56:38.600]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm sorry.
[56:39.100 --> 56:39.360]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[56:40.640 --> 56:41.160]  [SPEAKER_04]: Um...
[56:41.160 --> 56:42.040]  [SPEAKER_09]: You have 30 seconds.
[56:42.120 --> 56:48.000]  [SPEAKER_04]: I think the term is consolidated, consolidators, the people who buy the tickets wholesale, something like that?
[56:48.180 --> 56:48.600]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[56:49.700 --> 56:53.480]  [SPEAKER_04]: How does one get in touch with them?
[56:53.940 --> 57:11.040]  [SPEAKER_01]: Um, the names of several consolidators are frequently published in the Consumer Reports travel letter, uh, also a major travel agency would be familiar with who they are, and, uh, very often, uh, a major travel agency will actually obtain the tickets for you from a consolidator.
[57:11.240 --> 57:22.840]  [SPEAKER_01]: That might involve a slight additional charge, but, uh, according to Consumer Reports, anyway, which I trust on this, that is sometimes worth it, uh, to have a, uh, an intermediary involved that you, um, trust.
[57:24.220 --> 57:24.660]  [SPEAKER_09]: Okay.
[57:25.080 --> 57:30.600]  [SPEAKER_09]: We've been speaking with, uh, Paul Edwards, who is the editor and publisher of Travel Confidential.
[57:36.140 --> 57:38.460]  [SPEAKER_09]: And, uh, the program has been off the hook.
[57:38.760 --> 57:41.460]  [SPEAKER_09]: I guess I should give the address one more time for, uh, for the magazine.
[57:42.120 --> 57:49.940]  [SPEAKER_09]: Uh, Travel Confidential can be reached at 88 Bleecker Street, New York, New York, 10012, telephone number 212-254-1069.
[57:50.360 --> 57:58.640]  [SPEAKER_09]: Uh, Paul, any, uh, any final words or, uh, what are you going to be doing next in regards to this, how, how, uh, the lawsuit and everything?
[57:58.860 --> 58:00.960]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, uh, the, uh, the lawsuit is really quite serious.
[58:01.260 --> 58:02.680]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, we do regard it seriously.
[58:02.740 --> 58:04.820]  [SPEAKER_01]: We're going to fight this as best we can.
[58:05.480 --> 58:08.520]  [SPEAKER_01]: Um, we see it strictly as a First Amendment issue.
[58:08.880 --> 58:10.600]  [SPEAKER_01]: Um, American Airlines sees it otherwise.
[58:11.280 --> 58:17.160]  [SPEAKER_01]: Um, but the fact is that, uh, we really do feel pretty confident we're going to prevail, and we do intend to continue publishing this.
[58:17.400 --> 58:17.780]  [SPEAKER_09]: Okay.
[58:17.880 --> 58:20.440]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, we'll keep, uh, the folks updated as to the progress of it.
[58:20.440 --> 58:21.940]  [SPEAKER_09]: I'm sure we'll be reading about it in the newspapers.
[58:22.180 --> 58:23.480]  [SPEAKER_09]: Thanks so much for stopping by tonight.
[58:23.580 --> 58:24.140]  [SPEAKER_09]: Thank you, Emmanuel.
[58:24.240 --> 58:24.700]  [SPEAKER_01]: I've enjoyed it.
[58:24.700 --> 58:26.040]  [SPEAKER_09]: Good luck in the publishing business.
[58:26.200 --> 58:26.360]  [SPEAKER_09]: Thanks.
[58:26.800 --> 58:30.140]  [SPEAKER_09]: And speaking of the publishing business, the new issue of 2600 has just been released.
[58:30.260 --> 58:41.400]  [SPEAKER_09]: In fact, uh, copies will be available at the 2600 meeting, which will be this, uh, Friday afternoon at Citicore Center, starting at 5 p.m., running until about 8 p.m., and that's in the lobby center by the payphones.
[58:41.600 --> 58:42.000]  [SPEAKER_09]: Where else?
[58:42.100 --> 58:54.780]  [SPEAKER_09]: And included in this issue are things like a virus for the Atari and how that works, a password finder in UNIX and, uh, IBM, and a program written by Kevin Mitnick, who, uh, many of you know as the Dark Side Hacker.
[58:55.080 --> 58:57.400]  [SPEAKER_09]: So that will, uh, all be available there.
[58:57.920 --> 59:00.160]  [SPEAKER_09]: I'll be back again next week for Off the Hook.
[59:00.420 --> 59:03.760]  [SPEAKER_09]: Stay tuned for the Personal Computer Show here on WBAI New York.