And this is WBAI, New York, time for Off the Hook.
And this is WBAI.
Very good evening to one and all.
The program is Off the Hook, and this is Emanuel Goldstein.
We're with you every Wednesday night from 9 to 10 o'clock here on listener-supported radio.
And if you're tuning in for the Zeitgeist Hour, well, if you're tuning in the wrong week, first of all,
and second of all, they won't be on over the summer.
So that is the news from that front.
Speaking of news from all kinds of other different fronts,
we've been monitoring computer-related items and telephone-related items
and consumer-related items that have been happening throughout the last week or so.
As always, we'll be bringing you that information.
We'll be taking some phone calls.
And we've got a special guest who has been in the news in the last week.
So stay tuned.
Off the Hook is here.
Off the Hook is here.
Off the Hook is here.
And here's a couple of items from the Risk's Digest,
as we like to take a look at that each week,
find out what's happening in the crazy world of technology.
And, folks, it is a crazy world.
This person is named Anastasios Virgius,
and he had a run-in with the computer.
I had my first encounter
when trying to give my forwarding address
to Paragon Cable in Minneapolis, Minnesota.
No matter how much it was squeezed or stretched,
their computer would accept it.
You see, it was not a U.S. address.
Being physically present there,
after all, I was returning to the decoder box,
I could observe exactly what was happening.
The address was in Athens, Greece,
and their postal code was 15235.
But every time the man pressed return,
it would automatically erase Athens, Greece,
and put Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania there.
Most certainly, the zip code was soft-wired
with the city and state information.
In other words, it was intelligent.
It was disturbing that the program
would not simply issue a warning.
I offered to pay the outstanding balance
about two weeks' service on the spot,
but they could not accept it,
as a bill had to be mailed by the computer,
and this would take 10 days or so.
As I was moving in a week,
most definitely the operator
had a problem in his hands.
It's interesting how the operator
resolved the problem.
He simply backdated the disconnection date
to coincide with the last day of the last bill,
so there was no need anymore
for a forwarding address.
I can't complain,
as I got two weeks' free service.
Surely a good deal for Paragon Cable as well.
Think of the cost to upgrade the software.
I can't help wondering
how often they encountered this problem.
The phone company, however,
had no trouble at all
accepting this overseas address.
But that's the kind of thing
that does happen quite often.
I don't know how many times
you've been to places like Radio Shack,
where they just ask you for your zip code,
and you give them their zip code,
and they know who you are immediately.
It's life in the 90s.
Another, a bit more ugly example
of life in the 90s
has to do with privacy.
This was posted by somebody
who wishes to remain anonymous
concerning privacy and network monitoring.
He says,
by some, or she says,
by some odd coincidence,
the recent privacy thread
in the Risk's Digest
comes along right on the heels
of an ugly incident
at the company I work for.
We have a very large internal network,
along with a system of news groups
on a wide variety of topics.
One of these is called Grumps,
which is designed essentially
for the venting of curmudgeonly humor.
It is generally considered
to be the electronic equivalent
of the occasional water cooler gripe session.
Although humorous and intent,
sometimes issues important
to the running of the company
surface there.
I posted a satirical message last month
taking the company to task
with some bit of silly official pomposity
and thought nothing more of it.
Well, imagine my surprise
when two weeks later,
my manager's boss
called me into his office
with a copy of that message
on his desk.
He informed me
that I should think carefully
about sending out this sort of thing
and that it reflected poorly on me
and could jeopardize
my professional advancement.
Upon investigation,
I discovered that
our personnel department
has very quietly taken on the job
of surreptitiously monitoring traffic
on certain internal
recreational distribution lists.
And when something offensive
is detected,
it gets back via the personnel system
to the offender's management.
I had a long talk
with our vice president of personnel
who explained that they weren't spying,
they were just trying to keep
offensive mail off the network.
Of course,
they decide what is offensive
and what is not.
And there is most certainly a risk here,
one which I don't recall
having seen mentioned before,
and it is
that personnel
slash management people
operate under a very different
set of values
than the people
in the technical community
with whom I normally share
such postings.
For example,
this vice president
pointed with pride
to the fact that
she doesn't have a computer
in her office.
The manager I talked to
insisted that posting
to a distribution list
is a public act,
whereas I view it as private
in the same way
as a conversation
around the lunch table
in a group of friends.
These people have now
set themselves up
as social arbiters
of a system
which they themselves
never use.
After thinking about
this incident,
I implemented
an anonymous mail
forwarding system
which would allow people
to express their opinions
openly
without fear
of retribution
on specified charges.
Not surprisingly,
word of this
got around too.
This system proved
to be intolerable
to personnel.
They could not stand
the idea
that someone could say
what they liked
and couldn't be traced,
despite the fact
that the company itself
operates a comment system
which is designed
to allow people
to send anonymous comments
to management.
I was politely asked
to stop my forwarding service.
After thinking it over,
I agreed,
and I now regret
that decision.
The net result
has been greatly
decreased traffic
on the Grumps
distribution list
and a major loss
of faith on my part
in the goodwill
of the management
of our company
toward the people
who work there.
If you have such a story,
please send it in to us
here at Off the Hook
because we're interested
in monitoring
monitoring in the workplace
because there's
an awful lot of that
going around,
especially in the
electronic workplace
where your every keystroke
can be watched
and analyzed
and your speed
can be monitored
completely.
And this is something
you might have seen
in the newspapers
recently
in the last week or so.
In classic
life imitates
art tradition,
a case has been filed
that resembles
my Mr. M hypothetical,
the person who
for numerological reasons
publishes things
like pins,
private phone numbers
and so on.
By the way,
this is a posting
from Jerry Leichter
of the Risks Digest.
The following
is summarized
from the Wall Street Journal
May 29th.
American Airlines
has sued
Travel Confidential
Newsletter
and its publisher
Paul Edwards
to stop it
from publishing
lists of discount codes.
The codes
which travelers
are supposed
to mention
when making
reservations
entitle them
to discounts
of 5%
to 40%
on airfare,
car rentals
and hotel rooms.
They are intended
for people
attending conventions.
AMR charges
Travel Confidential
and Edwards
with fraud
and racketeering
for publicizing
its codes
and asks for
a court order
banning such publication
$750,000
in punitive damages
and unspecified losses.
Travel Confidential
is published
with the sole purpose
of facilitating,
aiding,
and inducing
the commission
of fraud
on American
and other airlines,
hotels,
and car rental agencies,
AMR claims.
But Mr. Edwards
says he is doing
nothing illegal
by pulling together
information
that is publicly
announced
by convention sponsors.
Every word
comes from
publicly available sources.
There is not
one iota
of confidential
or private information
in this newsletter.
He also denies
that he is encouraging
his readers
to commit fraud.
Edwards claims
that airlines
rarely even ask
whether a traveler
is attending the event
that matches the code.
If they don't want
people to abuse it,
they should police it,
he says.
The similarities
to computer hacking
are interesting here.
And in fact,
we have Paul Edwards
right here
in the studio
with us.
And we're going
to be speaking with him
and talking about
his newsletter
and talking about
the airlines
and how they work.
So we'll be
getting to that
right after we hear
a new piece
that just came out
on vinyl this week.
It was imported
from England.
We'll be taking
your phone calls
afterwards
at 279-3400.
This is
a new bit of music
from a band
called Screaming Target.
I was a new ones
because
and
it
was
going
to be
a new one.
It's
a new one.
It's
a new one.
There's
A cost of thousands and a view of one
Two million tickets, the West was won
They rode by moonlight, rode what they wore
With guns and Bible and a kestrel store
Black, white and silent, nation went to war
Black, white and violent, locked to one to four
Ain't like a courthouse and a hanging tree
There's kinds of theater where it used to be
We're making a smoothie, we're hanging up our guns
In between the eyes, the West was won
Black, white and silent, nation went to war
Black, white and silent, locked to one to four
Black, white and silent, lavami� game
A cost of thousands and a without
Black, white and silent, land to one to five
And the delight of the day
Black, white and silent, centenaway
Black, white and silent, fantastical, Rendezvous game
A cast of thousands and a view of some
Millions of tickets, the West is one
The legend of tinsel town paid blood and stars
Wood from the hanging tree built a cinema
Black and white and silent, nations went to fall
Black and white and silent, nations went to fall
Black and white and violent, nations went to fall
In a movie era that I look like me
Pure pure face kill off everybody
African, Indian, weather Apache
Even bring the alien like 80
In a cartoon, Tom, kill off Jerry
A pure black leg is all your country
She look like the male I take you out to agree
A fire to a shark, a little man's fight
The nation went to war
A lot to answer for
The nation went to war
Black and white and silent
A lot to answer for
A lot to answer for
And those are the remnants of a band called Big Audio Dynamite
And they're now known as Screaming Target
Minus Mick Jones
They've just released a record in London
Well, they're about to release a record
Actually, it hasn't even come out there yet
The record is called Hometown Hi-Fi
That song is Blood and Stars
It's all about nations going to war
And things like that
But you know, the most disturbing thing about it
Is the fact that Island Records has said
They're not going to release that record here in this country
At least not this year
So I thought it would be a right fine gesture
For all of us to give Island Records a call
And urge them to do otherwise
And as a public service
I've gotten Island Records' phone number
It's 212-477-8000
So if you would like to hear
Interesting music that has lyrics that mean something
Please give them a call
212-477-8000
And tell them that
They love hearing from people
The program is Off the Hook
This is Emmanuel Goldstein
And we have in the studio with us now
Paul Edwards
Who publishes a magazine
That deals with getting information out
Now, a rather large company has objected
To getting this information out
And I can't help but feel a kind of affinity here
Because I'm involved in sort of the same thing
Regarding computer hackers and telephone enthusiasts
And people like that
We're always trying to point out the bugs in the system
And try to explain things in ways
That the average person can understand
And I think that's what is done here
With the magazine
Which is called Travel Confidential
It's about 24 pages in length
8.5 by 11 format
And basically it's news and information
About various ways to save money traveling
As we mentioned a few minutes ago
One of the airlines
I believe it's American Airlines
Has filed a lawsuit to prevent this from happening
And Paul, let's first of all
Make sure your microphone is working
Good evening
Ah, it is, great
Could you explain what the idea of the magazine is?
You've only been publishing for four issues now
Already you've managed to get sued
It's just totally staggering to us
We're baffled
We're mystified
It's just utterly inconceivable
That this could have caused the uproar
That it's caused in such a short period of time
We never expected to have this kind of impact
When you take on a major corporation
Head to head like that
Well, that's the way they see it
We never really thought we were taking anybody on
Quite frankly, we thought that there was
A tremendous amount of travel discount information
Available in the marketplace
That most people were unaware of
Many of whom were, in fact, legitimately entitled
To take advantage of these discounts
And we're now in the middle of a recession
People are very concerned with saving money
Even companies and business people
Who travel quite frequently
And we thought it was an excellent time
Taking into account the economy
To start this publication
The idea behind the publication
Is really very simple
It is nothing more than a comprehensive list
Of meetings, conventions, trade shows
Association meetings
In some cases seminars
That are taking place all over the country
And in addition to giving you the dates
And locations and names of these events
We also tell you all about
The discount travel arrangements
That have been negotiated
For people who are attending those events
These discounts can be quite substantial
In some cases
Airfare discounts will range anywhere
From 30 to 50 percent
Off the normal full coach fare
Most of them come in at about 45 percent
Hotel discounts that are provided
To these people typically are 30 to 40 percent
Off what the hotel calls the rack rate
And the car rental discounts
Could be anywhere from about 10 to 20 percent
Off the normal full rate
Many people will say
Gee, some of this sounds good
Some of it doesn't even sound that great
Most corporations can get a 15 or 20 percent
Discount off of rental cars
Without doing anything
Most individuals can take advantage of that too
That's true
Very few people wind up
Walking in off the street
Cold to a hotel
And paying the full price
So although they'd be saving some money
If they took advantage of this
It's not as if
They were
You know
Saving a huge sum of money
Although in some cases
This can be very helpful
Now the way your newsletter is set up
You open it up
And there's all different cities
And underneath each city
There's a range of dates
And then all kinds of information
After that
Right
So how would somebody
Use this information?
There are two different ways
To use this information
The legitimate way
And the American Airlines
Illegitimate way
Okay
Or what they claim is illegitimate
I'll take the legitimate way first
You're in business
You're going to a trade show
Okay
And you call up your travel agent
And tell them
I'm going to Chicago next week
I'm going out there on the 14th
I'm returning the 16th
And the travel agent says
That's fine
She or he
Very diligently says
Are you attending a show
When you go out there?
Now this has happened to me many times
This is a standard question
That a travel agent should ask
When they're booking a flight
For a corporate client
And I reply
Yes as a matter of fact
I'm going out to the plastic show
In Chicago
And she says
Well did they arrange
Any discount information?
And I said
Gee I really don't know
My boss just told me
To make sure I got out there
And I really don't know
About this stuff
And she says
Well don't worry
That's fine
We'll take care of it
She gets off the phone with me
She turns to my newsletter
She looks it up
She finds that the plastic show
Does indeed have
An airfare discount
For let's say
American Airlines
It's got one for
Maybe the Chicago Hilton
And if I need a car rental
Maybe that's there too
Now she can call the airline
And book the reservation for me
And get the discount that applies
Probably 45% off the full fare coach
Okay now this is all legitimate
The only hitch in this is that
Up until four months ago
When I started publishing
The travel agent did not have access
To this code information
Well how were people supposed to
Be able to get the information
The only way that the information
Was distributed to a conference attendee
Was through a single conference brochure
That was distributed probably
In one mailing
To people that they thought
Ought to attend the show
Now maybe my company got that mailing
And maybe it didn't
Maybe even I got it
And threw it away
Or misplaced it
Or lost it
And now I no longer have the information
The discount reference material
Has never been distributed
To travel agents
So they've never had access
To this material
And what this means is that
There are a large number of people
Who are attending
Really attending
Trade shows and conventions
All around the country
Who are unable
To take advantage of these discounts
Because they never knew
About the discount
Or they lost the information
We got in the mail today
Just as an example
A catalog from a seminar company
This is a seminar company
That puts on training sessions
For people in the computer field
There were networking seminars
OS2 seminars
You know some of the things
That I'm sure our listeners tonight
Are familiar with
And this company puts on
Dozens
Dozens of seminars
All around the country
There was not one word
About discount travel information
Available if you were attending
One of these things
Now if there was a conference
That I really wanted to attend
At Los Angeles
And I'm here in New York
It's going to cost me
As much as $1400
To pay the full fare coach
To go out there
If I learn about this
On short notice
That's what the current
Full fare coach is
Maybe that's something
You could explain to me
Because there are
Different rates
For different people
Now there's a business rate
And then there's
A regular person rate
Now why would anybody
In their right mind
Pay a business rate
It's so expensive
Well the airlines
Don't really call it
A business rate
But you're right
Because that is
Effectively what it becomes
If we ignore
First class for the moment
Which is an animal
Unto itself
There is something
Called the full fare coach
And if you buy
A full fare coach ticket
You're buying this
For one of several reasons
One is the airlines
Will sell it to you
Without restriction
And what that means
Is that you can travel
When you want
Where you want
You can change your mind
As often as you want
The ticket is good
For up to a year
And at which point
You can return it
For a full cash refund
Okay
Or even extend it
I suppose
Another reason to buy
The full fare coach ticket
Is that you've got
To go tomorrow
And that's the only ticket
They'll sell you
Okay
And then
You start to get into
What they call
Discounted tickets
Right now
They have a special promotion
For a three day
Advanced ticket
Many of the airlines
Will give you
20% off the full fare coach
If you buy
And if you book
And pay for your ticket
Three days in advance
Of your travel
The next step
I believe
That exists right now
Is a 21 day
Advanced purchase ticket
And the fare comes down
To about 65%
Off the full fare coach
If you book
And pay for your ticket
21 days in advance
There's a catch however
If you change your mind
You lose all your money
You can't
You cannot change
Your reservation
If you get
If a
The only way
That we're funded
Is if you are sick
And submit a note
From your doctor
Oh really
Yeah
Oh you can do that
Oh yeah
It's just like school
I never knew that
I mean this is just like school
That is exactly the way
They treat their customers
You know
As if you were five years old
And you need a note
From your doctor
To get out of this
And you know
Many people are attracted
By the relatively low fare
And they will buy these tickets
But the airlines
Are determined
To make it very difficult
For you
In the event that
You have a change of plans
Or you can't make it
And it even
And it's really bad
I mean the fact of the matter
Is you can point to other
Kinds of situations
Where there may be
Something similar
If you go up to Broadway
And you buy a theater ticket
All right
They tell you to look
At the ticket before you go
Because they're not
Going to exchange this
And they won't give you
Your money back
And that's a very similar
Kind of situation
You've paid you know
Forty fifty dollars
For this ticket
And if you get sick
Or you change your mind
That's too bad
There is one way out
However
If I bought a theater ticket
I can sell it to you
Okay
And the theater doesn't care
You know
I could give it to you
I could sell it to you
I could possibly even
Make a little money on it
They don't care
Okay
Once I've bought the ticket
Basically I own that ticket
And I'm free to do with it
As I please
I can go to the show
Or whatever
It doesn't say on the back
You can't do that
But everybody does it anyway
Believe me
They don't really care
They don't care
Okay
What they don't want
Is for you to sell it
For a hundred dollars
And make a huge profit on it
In fact
I don't really know
Why that is either
But that's what
They really want to avoid
If I turned around
And sold it to you
For the same price
They wouldn't care
But when a concert is announced
You see the ads in the paper
For huge, huge profits
A hundred dollars
For Billy Joel tickets
Oh yeah
And people walk up
To the front of the line
And buy a hundred tickets
And you know
They're not taking a hundred friends
Absolutely
Okay
It's very clear
And nobody
Let's say
Who's getting hurt here
The fact of the matter
Is that
A number of states
And I think even
The federal government now
Are looking at
Going to the airlines
And saying
Look, it's one thing
To sell a non-refundable ticket
It is another thing
To prevent that passenger
From selling that ticket
To somebody else
Or transferring it
To somebody else
It is currently
Against the airline's tariff
To transfer that ticket
To somebody else
According to the airlines
If you can't use the ticket
That's too bad
You lost your money
Period
The states think
That that's very unfair
The federal government
Is beginning to look at it too
And I think that
Fairly soon
Hopefully
If they don't stop
The sale of
Non-refundable tickets
Altogether
They will at least
Allow the transfer
Of these things
But what
What is it that
Physically prevents you
From transferring
A ticket to somebody else
Nothing
It's just against
The airline's
Condition of carriage
But what does that mean
Contract of carriage
What does that mean
To somebody who does it
Legally
It's not clear
It is
It is a very gray area
The airlines
Will do all
But come right out
And say that
Their contract of carriage
Carries the weight of law
But as a
You know I think
As reasonable human beings
We realize that
You know that contract
Which you've never even seen
But is only alluded to
On the back of the ticket
Probably carries something less
Than the weight of law
The airlines maintain
That they have a real problem
If you transfer the ticket
Then they don't have
An accurate passenger manifest
I say that
If they allowed
The free transfer of tickets
People would be more willing
To acknowledge that they did it
And if the airlines
Went on a campaign
And encouraged people
To register
The name
Then I think
They would do that
There is a legitimate reason
For having an accurate
Passenger manifest
If anything should happen
To that aircraft
You know
An accident of some kind
It does help to know
Who was on it
There's no question of that
That's a legitimate
That's a legitimate need
Well I think
What it really boils down to
Is the fact that
We're dealing with an industry
That is so incredibly complicated
The average person
Has no idea
How to get through
You know
All the mumbo jumbo
That's out there
How to comparison shop
So
Oh well
There's no question
One of the things
That's really amazing to me
Is if you call up
The reservation clerk
And you know
Anybody can do this tomorrow
If they want
As a matter
We could even do it here
We could call
You know
Just to book a
To get a fair quote
For a trip out to California
One of the things you'll find
Is that we could spend
Half an hour on the phone
Just trying to get a quote
From the airline
It is amazing
Because
Every single little permutation
Of what we do
Gee maybe I want to go out
On the 8 o'clock flight
Instead of the 9 o'clock flight
That's a different price
If I change the day
It's a different price
I've noticed
If I ask for something
From different airlines
I tend to get
The exact same number
With the exact same conditions
Lots of times
Lots of times
But if people aren't
Always careful
About what they ask
Sometimes they'll say
I specifically want
To go out at 9 o'clock
And I want to come back
You know
Two days later
At 10 o'clock
In the evening
Okay
Now if you do that
And you're real specific
Most of the time
You'll get the same price
On the other hand
If you say
I want to go out
In the morning
And I want to come back
Sometime late in the afternoon
Or early evening
Two days later
And I want the lowest price
You've now given them
A different set of parameters
It may sound the same
But it's very different
Is it better for you
Or worse?
Who knows?
You have to try it
But the most amazing thing
Is that you can actually
Tie up a reservations clerk
Either at a travel agent
Or at the airlines directly
For 30, 40, 50
Even an hour
On the phone
Trying to get a price quote
It is an amazingly
Complicated process
For them as well as for us
Oh yeah
And
A 21 day advance purchase ticket
At $250
But it's non-refundable
And it's got these other restrictions
And then you could get
A full fare ticket
That is refundable
But if you make any changes
In the reservation
It'll cost you $30
And that's another price
And then if you want
A fully refundable ticket
Where there are no penalties
That's an even higher price
It's interesting
A friend of mine
Just came out from Amsterdam
And he said he was able
To get a price of
I think $300 round trip
From Amsterdam to
I believe it was Minneapolis
He had to go there
And I called the same airline
And asked them
What's the fare from
Minneapolis to Amsterdam
Round trip
And they gave me a price
Of something like $875
And I asked them
Was there any discount anywhere
And they said
No, we have no discount
So I was wondering
Is it possible for me
To somehow buy a ticket
From Amsterdam
And go back before I leave
Is it possible
To do things like that
As a matter of fact
It is possible
To do things like that
I've been told
And I don't fully understand
It myself
However
There is one way
To do this
That is reasonably easy
To understand
And the airlines
Will never tell you
About this
The airlines
Are currently flying around
With 40%
Of their seats
Empty
Okay
I mean
Times are tough
For the airlines
There's no question
One of the things
That a lot of the airlines
Do is to sell
Blocks of tickets
Huge numbers of tickets
To an outfit called
A consolidator
And they sell
These tickets wholesale
You might consider it
To be their
Their bottom level price
And
The consolidator now
Is free to resell
These tickets
To anyone
At any time
At any price
They want
Okay
But the airlines
Will never tell you this
And it is possible
To call up a consolidator
Tomorrow
And say
I need to catch
A flight
From New York
To Los Angeles
In the evening
Do you have any tickets
And the consolidator
Will say yes
And you may very well
Wind up buying a ticket
At the 21 day
Advanced purchase price
Even though you're
Going the same day
I see
Wouldn't they
Want to charge you
More though
Not necessarily
Because that ticket
May die
By the end of the day
I mean if he's got
50 of these tickets
Left he wants to
Sell one in a hurry
Oh so he loses money
If he doesn't sell them
Oh sure
I see
Okay
Interesting set up there
Yeah very interesting set up
Is that legal
That kind of set up
Oh yeah it's perfect
I mean the airlines
Sold it to him
You know to do with
As they please
But he's transferring
The ticket which goes
Against their terror
Interesting yes
Yeah it is very interesting
The airlines can of course
Do whatever they want
The airlines also do
Something which is
To set up what they call
Preferred travel agencies
And what are those
Preferred travel agencies
Get a better deal
From the airlines
They will actually be
Paying a lower price
For the tickets
Than a unpreferred
Travel agent
And of course
Paying a lower price
Means you can resell
The ticket even cheaper
Than someone else
And if you know
That you're dealing
With a preferred agency
Then you may be able
To negotiate a better deal
I see
We're speaking with
Paul Edwards
Who is the publisher
Of Travel Confidential
Used to be called
Travel Smarter
And has been publishing
Since when?
Since March
Since March of this year
He's currently being sued
By American Airlines
For providing information
Now how do you feel
You mentioned that
This information
Is designed for travel agents
But how do you feel
If it gets in the hands
Of the average person
Do they have a right
To this information?
Absolutely
The fact of the matter
Is that as we said
When American Airlines
Filed the suit
All of the information
In our newsletter
Comes strictly
From publicly available sources
Back in the office
We have an ad
From the New York Times
Sunday Magazine
That was published
In April of this year
That contains
All the information
That you need
To book a discount
Fair to New York
For a show
That took place
I think was either
In April or May
So this is information
That's already published
In other magazines
Yeah this was published
In the New York Times
Sunday Magazine
What you're doing
Is compiling the information
Right
And American Airlines
Is telling me
That information
I got from the New York
Times Sunday Magazine
Is somehow private
And confidential
Now let's say that
I'm looking at your magazine
Now I want to go to
Say
I'm looking for
I don't see Los Angeles
Why don't I see Los Angeles?
It's in there
Okay
Oh there it is
Okay
Los Angeles
I would expect to pay
Something like
What $159 each way now
Or something like that
That's a regular
You've been reading
Their ads
Yeah I've just
Happened to see it
Let me tell you
About their ads
Okay
Yeah
The ads say $159
Okay
To Los Angeles
And small type
Underneath that
It will say
One way based on
A round trip purchase
Which means I have to
Okay so now we're up
To $318
Okay
All right
In an even smaller type
It tells you about
The tax they didn't
Tell you about
The departure fee
The arrival fee
And I'm making
Some of this up
But there's all these
Other fees in there
That I can't even read
My vision isn't good
Enough to read the type
So what does it
Wind up being
So it winds up being
Around $330
$340
Something like that
All right
Up from
So we're now up to
You know
Mid $340
You know
Mid $300
Up from $159
Furthermore
When you call up
To book this thing
And you tell them
You want this price
You learn that
Gee we're all sold
Out of those seats
But we can get you
Something at around
$380 or $400
Now isn't there
Some kind of a law
That says they can't
Sell out of something
That they've advertised
Like when you go
To the grocery store
And they're advertising
A certain kind of apple
For a certain kind of price
They don't have it
They give you a rain check
I mean the fact of the matter
Is that
A number of state
Attorney generals
Have for years
Been trying
To put an end
To this type of advertising
On the part of the airlines
But they are
A national business
And they do not fall
Under the jurisdiction
Of the individual states
Much less the cities
There is no question
That if the airlines
Were operating retail businesses
In New York City
That they would have
Been shut down
For deceptive advertising
And marketing practices
Years ago
There's no question of that
I mean this is
In New York City
You call this bait and switch
But
So continue with your example
They say now we have another
Yeah so we don't have
Any of those cheap seats left
Because we only set aside
So many and those sold out
And nobody ever knows
How many they actually
Set aside
And I suspect
It could be as little
As two or three
On any given flight
Sometimes they say
Well we have one
Left so you have to
Make up your mind
Right now
Because if you hang up
And call back
Certainly it will be sold
Oh it could be
While you're making up
Your mind it could be sold
Right
I mean you know
The wonder of computers here
Computers have their
Upside and their downside
But so anyway
They've got more expensive seats
And what happens is
That you know
You saw the ad
The night before
You decided you were
Going to take your
Summer vacation
And you get all
Psyched up for this thing
And you wind up
Taking it anyway
But at a higher price
The other thing
That's very interesting
About that
Is that
Let's say
That you really only
Need to go from
New York to Los Angeles
So you figure
Well at least I can
Get there for
$159 plus the tax
And everything else
Uh-uh
No way
The fact of the matter
Is that
The one way ticket price
Is more like
$700 or $800
Okay
Actually it's more
Probably $800 or $900
Because a one way ticket
Is more expensive
Excuse me
Is often more expensive
Than a round trip
Yeah I've noticed that too
And I can't figure that out
Now the airlines have
A very interesting
Philosophy about that
Um
The smart consumer
Looks at it
And says
Hmm
The one way ticket
Is more expensive
Than the round trip
Why don't I buy
The round trip
And I just won't
Use half of it
The airlines say
That's not allowed
Uh-huh
And if they catch you
Doing that
They will charge you
The difference
How can they catch you
Not taking a plane
Uh
Well they know
They sold you two tickets
And if after
A certain period of time
They're going to come
After you or something
Yeah right
If after a certain
Period of time
They see that the
Coupon wasn't used
Then they know
What you did
And they'll come back
And demand
You know
That you make up
The difference
That actually happens
Yes it does
And um
I like in this sort of
Um
And we've got a
Four year old
Little boy named
Brian
Who likes to go
To Pizza Hut
And uh
Every once in a while
You go into a pizza hut
And they got a
Two for one deal
Alright
So or or you know
Or buy one
And get another one
For a dollar
So uh
Okay
You know
We all go out there
And we get the two pizzas
And uh
Brian being the typical
Four year old
Uh
You know
Takes a bite and a half
And says
I'm finished
So we got this extra pizza
Sitting there untouched
Right
Uh huh
Now the waitress
Comes around and says
Uh uh
You didn't eat your ex
You didn't eat the second pizza
We're going to charge you more
You're kidding
I am kidding
About Pizza Hut
Oh okay
But if American Airlines
Was writing Pizza Hut
That's exactly what they do
I would have done an expose I'm mad
If that was true
I mean that's
That's American Airlines philosophy
Alright so
Let me
Let me go back to the magazine here
Now okay
I could
I could really get
Ripped off
As your point
With uh
If I buy a ticket
The usual way
But if I looked in this
And I saw
The event
And I saw
The various
Um
Where's a particular
Code word
Give me an example
What a code word would be
I hesitate to
You'll forgive me
I hesitate to use them codes
They don't even call them codes
I don't even see any
To be honest
Yeah they're called
Reference numbers
And uh
If we
Um
You were at Los Angeles
We'll go back
There
Um
And uh
If you look at Los Angeles
Uh you got the
June issue there
I have the uh
May issue
Oh May
Um
I'll pick one of those up
And uh
Turn to
Page 10
Page 10
Okay let's
We'll take a look at
The first listing
For Los Angeles
This is a May issue
And the first listing
Under Los Angeles
Is May 3rd
To May 5th
And uh
Contact lens
Symposium
Right
Okay
Okay
Um
That's one of the reasons
We sell this newsletter too
There are people
Who like to go to
All different kinds of meetings
Really
Uh
You'll notice that
The airline listed here
Is US Air
Uh
We give you their
800 phone number
For making reservations
Along with the
Gold file number
Which in this case
Is number
673518
Now if I'm going
To the contact
Or if I was going
To the contact
Blend Symposium
What I would have done
Would be to call
US Air
At that 800 number
And I would have said
I'm going out
To Los Angeles
Uh
Possibly on
May 2nd
The day before the show
Uh
And I'll be returning
Um
Even May 8th
Well
Several days
Beyond the show
I want to spend
Some time
At Disneyland
And uh
Uh
I wish to
You know
I want to book this
Using your gold
File number
673518
And uh
They'll uh
Look it up
In the computer
They'll type
You know
They'll type in
The file number
And they'll say
That's the contact
Lens Symposium
And I'll say
Right
And then we'll
Proceed to book
The flight
Just as I ask
Okay
And having given
Them that file number
Uh
They will
They will
Uh
Give me the discount
That I'm entitled to
I see
It's
It is that simple
One of the things
That we've
Pointed out here
And the airlines
Don't deny this
And this is why
We don't feel
That we've done
Anything wrong
The airlines
Will never ask you
Are you going
To the contact
Lens Symposium
They will never ask
If you're a member
Of the group
Do you think
They might start
Asking that
I
I don't see
Why they wouldn't
I mean
I
This is
This is absurd
Why
I mean
The fact of the matter
Is that
There is a valid
Use for this
Information
We saw it
As a valuable
Resource
For many people
In the business
We did not
Start this
To defraud
American
Or any other
Airline
And what we're
Saying to them
Is that
If you are
Concerned about
People misusing
These discounts
Then you should
Police your own
System
You are the ones
Who have been
Disseminating this
Information through
Public channels
All we've done
Is to compile it
In one place
We happen to be
Very good researchers
We know where to look
But we haven't
Been out to Dallas
And gone through
Their headquarters
Or their computer
Or gone through
Their garbage
My wife and I
Spent a couple
Hours in Tower
Books downtown
Over the weekend
And we bought
Fifty dollars worth
Of magazines
And walked out
Of there
With over
Four hundred
Events and
Reference numbers
That's how
Difficult this
Information is
To find
That's how
Private this
Information is
I mean
In three hours
In Tower
Books we found
Enough material
To fill up
An entire issue
Of my newsletter
What did I do
Wrong
And it's
Public information
That's public
Information
It's interesting
Because you
Mentioned computers
And I can't help
But notice the
The article in
The New York
Times last
Thursday
Says Mr.
Edwards said
He had compiled
The code numbers
By getting on
Mailing list
Tapping into
Computer databases
Now that sounds
So nefarious
Well as a matter
Of fact
Not only
That actually
Bothered me
Because actually
That's the one
Thing where I
Was misquoted
In the article
What I said to
The reporter
For the Associated
Press
Whose story
That is
Was that I
Did not get
It from computers
And he just
Left out the
Nut
Right
I see
Okay
We do
We use computers
Back in the office
We I mean
The entire
Newsletter is
Desktop published
And we maintain
All the information
In a database
And we put a lot
Of work into that
But the fact
Of the matter
Is that although
I am sure
I could find
Some of this
Information on
Prodigy
Or CompuServe
Or some of the
Other publicly
Accessible databases
And that would be
Perfectly legitimate
If I did
By the way
Frankly I don't
Do it
I'm not a
Skilled searcher
On computer
Databases
And we have
Found that
Going through
Magazines and
Newspapers
Is easier for us
And very productive
So that's the
That's the one
Thing where I
Was misquoted
And it bothers
Me a little bit
Because as you
Say yes it
Does even
Though that
Could that
Could be
Perfectly legitimate
It does have
A nefarious ring
To it
And actually
That's pretty
Interesting
I mean why
Is it that
If you say
You went through
A computer database
It has that
Nefarious tone
To it
I mean there
There's no
Reason for that
Well that's part
Of the whole
Misunderstanding
Of the hacker
Culture
And technology
In general
Kind of a fear
Of technology
I would say
We're going to
Be taking
Phone calls
At 212-279-3400
We're speaking
With Paul Edwards
Who is the
Editor of
And publisher
Of Travel
Confidential
And I guess
If it's alright
I can give out
Your address
And phone number
Oh absolutely
Okay
It's published
At 88 Bleecker
Street
New York
New York
10012
Telephone number
212-254-1069
And all kinds
Of information
It doesn't look
Like you do
International information
No we really
Don't have any
International material
At this time
We're looking
At it
We're working
On it
This type
Of information
Is available
But it is
Very difficult
To find
And
I find it
Incredible
How many people
Will pay
A huge amount
Or think
They won't go
Somewhere
Because they
Think they
Have to pay
A huge amount
To get there
And that includes
Overseas as well
As here
And as you say
If you just
Look around
A little bit
And I never
Actually use
The system
Where you
Say you're going
To a show
Or whatever
Or you know
Where you go
To a trade fair
Or any kind
Of discount
Like that
I just look
Around and find
Little tiny ads
Really tiny ones
You need a microscope
For
And you can find
Things occasionally
That just aren't
Advertised anyplace else
Oh yeah
And the thing
Is that
Americans
Says that
They know
That people
Have taken
Advantage of
These types
Of fares
Before
Now I've
Created a
Manual
For cheating
The airline
I think you
Can see
Just looking
Through it
There isn't
One word
In the
Newsletter
That tells you
How to cheat
The airline
I mean
We've just
Provided
The information
There are plenty
Of ways to cheat
The airline
I would imagine
Oh there are
And there are
Other books
That do that
Which is also
One of the reasons
We're wondering
How come
We're getting sued
Here
Consumer Reports
Travel Letter
Which is a
Well respected
Newsletter in the
Field
Periodically
Does print
Articles
On how to
Beat the
System
And they
Will talk
About things
Like using
Meeting and
Convention
Fairs
And how to
Use them
To beat
The system
They will
Talk about
Using hidden
Cities
To beat
The airlines
Or back
To back
Ticket splitting
And these
Are all other
Things in the
Airline
Fair structure
That I'll
Tell you
And we'll
Give an
Example that's
Kind of
You know
A local
Nature
Suppose
We want to
Go out to
Chicago
All right
And we got
To go
Tomorrow
All right
We call
Up and they
Tell us
The fare
Is $850
It's a lot
Of money
Turns out
That the
Same airplane
That's going
To take us
To Chicago
Continues on
To Kansas
City
I've heard
Of this
Okay
And it
Also turns
Out that
The fare
To Kansas
City
Is only
$400 or
$500
I'm making
That number
Up
I'm really
Not sure
What it
Is
But it's
Lower
I can never
Understand why
That is
In the first
It'd be
Interesting
To get
Somebody
From one
Of the
Airlines
On here
To explain
It to us
But
And I won't
Attempt it
It's beyond me
It's like the fee
For touchstones
Makes no sense
Whatsoever
Oh sure
Or electronic
Banking for that
Matter
Why should I pay
Money to get
A service
In my house
That actually
Helps the bank
Save money
Exactly
And so I
Refused to do
That
So now
The airlines
Say it's
Illegal
For you
To go
To one
Yes
And you
Know why
This is
Another case
Of you
Didn't use
Everything
You bought
So we're
Going to
Charge you
Extra
You bought
Two coupons
One from
New York
To Chicago
The second
From Chicago
To Kansas
City
You didn't
Use the
Second one
So you've
Cheated us
And you owe
Us more
Money
Can you
Imagine if
You bought
An automobile
And GM
Came after you
Two weeks
Later
And said
You know
You haven't
Been driving
This you'll
Have to
Pay more
It is
I mean
It's an
Amazing
Mentality
And
But they
Will catch
You occasionally
Doing hidden
Cities
And they
Will make
You pay
The difference
We're taking
Phone calls
At 279-3400
Speaking with
Paul Edwards
The editor
And publisher
Of travel
Confidential
Let's see
Who's out
There
Good evening
Hi
It's a great
Program
Now the
First question
Is also
Cross references
Some computer
Hackers
Now
One of the
Major
Computer
Makers
Has a
Travel service
On their
Free
Or
It's not
Really a
Free thing
When you
Come online
With their
Sort of
CompuServe
Should I say
The name of
The computer
Well I think
You just did
No actually
It's not
CompuServe
I think you're
Affering to
Prodigy
Are you referring
To Prodigy
No
America Online
Well no
It's part of
The Apple
Group
So I guess
I've just
Said it
Part of the
Apple
I don't know
That one
Apple has
When you
Sign on to
Apple
Apple Link
Has a
System where
You can book
Your own
Airline tickets
And if
You're a bit
Diligent
Once you
Get into
The link
And you
Keep
Hacking away
Or looking
And searching
You can
Find the
Lowest
Fair
And I
Found
Fairs
That like
You were
Saying
Like to
Let's say
Cleveland
Normal
Cleveland
Fair
$319
I've found
Fairs
To Cleveland
That I
Booked
Through the
Apple
Link
That I
Booked
Myself
For $99
Each way
Now my
Question is
That still
Seems incredibly
Expensive
Considering you
Wind up in
Cleveland
Well that's
True
I mean
I was just
Using it
As an
Example
Saying that
I didn't
Go to
Cleveland
I went
Someplace
Else
Now wait
I'm just
Curious
How
Were you
Able to
Find this
Information
Just by
Listing
Everything
Okay well
First of all
On the
Apple link
There's a
Travel
Section
And then
You call
Up the
Travel
Menu
From the
Apple link
And it
Tells you
The airlines
That are
Flying
Then it
Calls up
All the
Airlines
That fly
From New
York
Chicago
Etc
Etc
Etc
And let's
Suppose
You wanted
To go
To
Mexico
So you
Call up
The airlines
That go
Into
Mexico
Then you
Find out
Which airline
You want to
Go in
Mexico
So then
You call
Hi
You do
Go to
Mexicana
Airlines
American
Etc
Pan Am
Yeah we
Have a
Fair
That's
Such
And so
The time
That we
Went to
The fair
For I
Think it
Was four
Of us
Was something
Like
For the
Adults
It was over
$800
For the
Children
It was
A lot
Less
So what
I
Searched
Around
With
The
Appalink
And I
Found
That I
Could get
The kids
Going
For something
Like
It was
$200
Round trip
And these
Are approximations
Just in terms of
Rounding off the
Numbers
And for
Myself
And
The other
Adult
It was
$400
Round trip
So the
Whole trip
That would
Have been
Booked
Through a
Travel agency
Would cost
$2,200
Through the
Airlines
It was
A little
Bit less
We
Through
Appalink
Found
Just by
Searching
And keep
Looking in
Once you
Pull up
The travel
Screen
We found
Fairs
That were
$400
Round trip
For both
Of us
And $200
For the
Kids
So that's
What was
That
$1,000
So we
Saved
$1,900
Without going
To the
Travel agency
So my
Question is
This
Is that
Service
The
Preferred
Travel
Or the
Travel agency
The Preferred
Travel agency
Or the
Consolidator
Is some way
Linked with that
Or is this
Something new
That I brought
To the attention
Of the audience
And you also
Okay I'll let him
Answer your question
On the radio
Thanks for calling
Bye
No there
Really isn't
Anything new
Here as a
Matter of fact
You can get
Into other
Similar kinds
Of services
American Airlines
Easy Sabre
Is available
Through Prodigy
I think it's
Also available
On CompuServe
If I'm not
Mistaken
You can go
Through these
Things and you
Can pull up
All kinds of
Very low
Fairs
The problem
Usually with
The very low
Fairs that
You'll see
And for
Example
This is
Real
If you look
At Chicago
You'll see
Fairs listed
In these
Systems
Anywhere
From $850
Round trip
Down to
About $179
The trouble
Is when you
Try to book
The $179
Fair
It can be
Very difficult
To actually
Obtain it
Because there
Are so many
Weird restrictions
That are involved
And it could be
That there's
Just one flight
Going out
On a Tuesday
Morning
At 3 o'clock
In the morning
And just one
Flight coming back
A week after
The following
Thursday
Coming back
That will
Actually get
You that
Fair
And this
Can drive
You absolutely
Bananas
One of the
Things that
I think
Most people
Find objectionable
To doing
This themselves
Is that
It truly
Drives you
Crazy
You can
Spend an
Hour online
Trying to
Book one
Flight
It's incredible
Because I
Never do
That kind of
Thing
I always
Figure out
Ways to
Just
You know
As you
Say
I mean
Most
I mean
Certainly
The business
Traveler
Who is
Interested
You know
In saving
Time
And maintaining
Flexibility
Is more
Interested
In picking up
The phone
Calling the
Travel agents
I'm going
To Chicago
Next week
Book the
Flight
Call me
Back
When you
Got it
They want
To take
Care of
That in
One minute
Even the
Consumer
Rarely has
The time
To spend
More than
You know
A half
Hour or so
On taking
Care of
These kinds
Of arrangements
And that's
The trouble
With this
Stuff
Not that
It's not
Available
It's just
Not
Yes it's
Accessible
But it's
So difficult
And time
Consuming
That
That
Kind of
Plays off
Against
Its
Accessibility
One thing
I always
Enjoy
Doing
Is
Strolling
Up and
Down
The
Isles
Asking
People
What
They
Paid
For
Their
Tickets
And
You get
Such
Incredibly
Incredible
Variations
Some people
Pay $850
Some people
Pay $99
Some people
Are on for
Free
For some
Promotional
Thing
I don't
I don't
I don't know
I don't know
That there's
Necessarily
Any truth
To this
But one
Of my
Subscribers
Told me
A story
And he
Said
Do you
Know why
The airlines
Created
Business
Class
And I
Said no
And I
Really
Don't
And he
Said well
He says
I'm
Firmly
Convinced
That the
Reason the
Airlines
Created
Business
Class
Was to
Prevent
The sucker
Who paid
The full
Fair
From sitting
Next to
Somebody
Who paid
20%
Of it
212
279
3400
Good
Evening
Yes I
Have a
Question
Go ahead
Okay
Can we
Just turn
The radio
Just a
Second
Yes turn
Down your
Radio
Always a
Good rule
Of thumb
Sorry about
That
I didn't
Know why
We get
So quickly
On
Okay
What's
Your
Question
Why can't
People like
Let's say
Real estate
Agents
Become certified
Travel agents
And just go
That direction
And you
Know
Get low
Fares
Because I
Saw in
Learning
Annex
Or
I shouldn't
Say the
Name
But
There's a
Way to
Get
Certification
Like
Notary
Republic
That you
Can
Just get
Certification
Somehow
For very
Little
Money
Like
A few
Dollars
And then
Use that
Discount
To just
Book your
Fares
So your
Question is
Why can
You not
Become a
Travel agent
Yourself
To get
Those
Good
Fares
Right
Okay
Well answer
It on
The radio
Thanks for
Calling
The fact
Of the
Matter is
That many
People in
The travel
Agency
Business
Have gone
Into
It
Just for
That
Reason
They
Hardly
Make any
Money at
All
As an
Agent
But
They're
Getting
A lot
Of freebies
Back from
Hotels
And the
Airlines
And they
Use that
To do a
Lot of
Their own
Personal
Travel
So yes
Lots of
People really
Do do
That
Good evening
Yeah
Hi
Last week
You mentioned
Something about
A hackers
Meeting
On Fridays
I'll mention
That again
At the end
Of this
Show
Do you
Have a
Question
Regarding
This
Yeah
I was
Also
Wondering
If you
Mentioned
The
Address
And
What's
The
Cost
For
The
Newsletter
We
Publish
Every
Month
And a
One
Year
12
Issue
Subscription
Is
$95
Sounds
Like
An
Interesting
Thing
Okay
Thanks
A lot
Thanks
For
Calling
Good
Evening
Hello
Is
Anybody
There
Yeah
Go
Ahead
Yes
I
Hear
You
Just
Fine
The
Gentleman
Mentioned
Something
I
Hear
You
Fine
Too
You
Have
30
Seconds
The
People
Who
Buy
The
Tickets
Wholesale
Something
Like
That
Yes
How
Does
One
Get
In
Touch
With
Them
The
Names
Of
Several
Consolidators
Are
Frequently
Published
In
The
Consumer
Reports
Travel
Letter
Also
A
Major
Travel
Agency
Would
Be
Familiar
With
Who
They
Are
And
Very
Often
A
Major
Travel
Agency
Will
Actually
Obtain
The
Tickets
For
You
From
A
Consolidator
That
Might
Involve
A
Slight
Additional
Charge
But
According
To
Consumer
Reports
Anyway
Which
I
Trust
On
This
That
Is
Sometimes
Worth
It
To
Have
An
Intermediary
Involved
That
You
Trust
Okay
We've
Been
Speaking
With
Paul
Edwards
Who
Is
The
Editor
And
Publisher
Of
Travel
Confidential
And
The
Program
Has
Been
Off
The
Hook
I
Guess
I
Should
Give
The
Address
One
More
Time
For
The
Magazine
Travel
Confidential
Can
Words
Or
What
Are
Going
To
Be
Doing
Next
In
Regards
To
This
Lawsuit
The
Lawsuit
Is
Really
Quite
Serious
We
Do
Regard
It
Seriously
We're
Going
To
Fight
This
As
Best
We
Can
We
See
It
Strictly
As
A
First
Amendment
Issue
American
Airlines
Sees
It
Otherwise
But
The
Fact
Is
That
We
Really
Do
Feel
Confident
We're
Going
To
Prevail
And
We
Do
Intend
To
Publishing
This
Okay
Well
We'll
Keep
The
Folks
Updated
As
To
The
Progress
Of
It
I'm
Sure
We'll
Be
Reading
About
It
In
Newspapers
Thanks
So
Much
For
Stopping
By
Tonight
Thank
You
Emmanuel
I've
Enjoyed
It
Good
Luck
In
The
Publishing
Business
Thanks
And
Speaking
Of
The
Publishing
Business
The
New
Issue
2600
Has
Just
Been
Released
In
Fact
Copies
Will
Be
Available
At
The
2600
Meeting
Which
Will
Be
This
Friday
Afternoon
At
Citicore
Center
Starting
At
5pm
Running
Until
About
8pm
And
That's
In
The
Lobby
Center
By
The
Pay
Phones
Where
Else
Included
In
This
Issue
Are
Things
Like
A
Virus
For
The
Atari
And
How
That
Works
A
Password
Finder
In
Unix
And
IBM
And
A
Program
Written
By
Kevin
Midnick
Who
Many
Of
You
Know
As
The
Dark
Side
Hacker
So
That
Will
All
Be
Available
There
I'll
Be
Back
Again
Next
Week
For
Off
The
Hook
Stay
Tuned
For
The
Personal
Computer
Show
Here
On
WBAI
New
York
Could
They
Would
Bum
Diddly
Bum
For
The
Best
Expect
For
Worst
I
Hope
That's
Understood
Bum
Diddly
Bum
Bum
Bum
Bum
Bum
Bum
Bum
Bum
Bum
Bum
Bum
Bum
Bum
Bum
Bum
For news and analysis of events in this hemisphere,
tune in on alternate Thursdays at 10 o'clock p.m.
for the Caribbean and Latin America report.
That's alternate Thursdays at 10 o'clock p.m.
on WBAI 99.5 FM.