Off The Hook - 1991-09-11
[00:02.340 --> 00:07.780] [SPEAKER_00]: Rex Radio, and poet Gary Wagner, and maybe some surprises.
[00:08.240 --> 00:17.220] [SPEAKER_00]: That's 3 to 5 a.m., Friday night, September the 13th, or Saturday morning, September the 14th, depending on whether you're staying up or getting up.
[00:17.420 --> 00:18.980] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm Frederick Geobald.
[00:19.160 --> 00:20.840] [SPEAKER_00]: This is Light Show.
[00:35.450 --> 00:40.250] [SPEAKER_05]: The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
[00:41.090 --> 00:43.210] [SPEAKER_05]: I cut myself while shaving.
[00:43.770 --> 00:45.110] [SPEAKER_05]: Now I cut me.
[00:45.170 --> 00:45.610] [SPEAKER_05]: I cut.
[00:46.570 --> 00:48.770] [SPEAKER_05]: It couldn't get much worse.
[00:49.490 --> 00:51.430] [SPEAKER_05]: But if they could, they would.
[00:51.730 --> 00:54.450] [SPEAKER_05]: But I best expect the worst.
[00:55.110 --> 00:57.070] [SPEAKER_05]: I hope that's understood.
[00:57.450 --> 01:03.030] [SPEAKER_08]: But I can assure you we're in better shape here than our tape players are.
[01:03.270 --> 01:09.150] [SPEAKER_08]: The program is Off the Hook, the show about technology and individual spirit and all that kind of thing.
[01:09.150 --> 01:11.050] [SPEAKER_08]: This is Emmanuel Goldstein.
[01:11.210 --> 01:16.850] [SPEAKER_08]: Tonight we've got a rather frightening show, so stay right where you are and don't turn out the lights.
[02:32.080 --> 02:33.420] [SPEAKER_04]: The white right hand.
[02:33.900 --> 02:36.760] [SPEAKER_04]: The Nazi ghettoology is an urban Vietnam.
[02:37.520 --> 02:40.080] [SPEAKER_04]: Giving deadly exhibitions of murder.
[02:40.420 --> 02:41.040] [SPEAKER_04]: They make fun.
[02:56.670 --> 03:00.600] [SPEAKER_04]: This is Rachel Cash, tearing up the seven bales.
[03:01.020 --> 03:04.280] [SPEAKER_04]: This is Rachel Cash, please save us, not the whales.
[03:04.280 --> 03:05.240] This
[03:58.800 --> 04:17.320] [SPEAKER_04]: is Rachel
[04:47.850 --> 04:52.250] [SPEAKER_04]: Cash, please save yourself, not the
[04:55.260 --> 04:55.920] [SPEAKER_04]: whales.
[05:41.550 --> 05:54.150] [SPEAKER_08]: Everybody, hold on tight because things are changing and things are getting scarier every day as technology does strange and wonderful things to the human imagination.
[05:54.570 --> 05:58.350] [SPEAKER_08]: The latest product of which comes out of the state of New York.
[05:58.850 --> 06:01.750] [SPEAKER_08]: And I'm going to read you a paragraph of a new law.
[06:02.530 --> 06:05.330] [SPEAKER_08]: And then we'll speak to some incensed people.
[06:05.730 --> 06:09.730] [SPEAKER_08]: And we'll be taking phone calls too from folks just like you.
[06:10.130 --> 06:11.550] [SPEAKER_08]: The program is off the hook.
[06:11.790 --> 06:12.810] [SPEAKER_08]: This is Emmanuel Goldstein.
[06:12.810 --> 06:14.850] [SPEAKER_08]: We'll be with you until 10 o'clock tonight.
[06:15.830 --> 06:20.290] [SPEAKER_08]: Okay, the paragraph comes from this particular law.
[06:20.410 --> 06:23.650] [SPEAKER_08]: We'll get into the exact specifics as to the name of it and all that.
[06:24.170 --> 06:27.070] [SPEAKER_08]: Sale, selling, or purchase.
[06:27.850 --> 06:50.390] [SPEAKER_08]: Any transfer of title or possession or both, exchange or barter, rental, lease, or license to use or consume, including, with respect to computer software, merely the right to reproduce, conditional or otherwise, in any manner or by any means whatsoever for a consideration or any agreement,
[06:50.530 --> 06:59.070] [SPEAKER_08]: therefore, including the rendering of any service, taxable under this article for consideration or any agreement, therefore.
[07:00.150 --> 07:19.970] [SPEAKER_08]: Okay, if you're still awake after that, basically what this is an introduction to is a whole lot of words like that, that are saying that from here on in, New York State is going to be taxing software transfers on such places as bulletin boards.
[07:20.430 --> 07:31.810] [SPEAKER_08]: And actually, this kind of a thing has outraged system operators of computer bulletin boards everywhere because they are now supposedly going to be held liable.
[07:32.130 --> 07:37.070] [SPEAKER_08]: Every time somebody downloads a piece of software on their computer system.
[07:37.590 --> 07:38.990] [SPEAKER_08]: People are going nuts over this.
[07:39.730 --> 07:55.950] [SPEAKER_08]: Now, don't fret if you don't understand what computer bulletin boards are or how the whole thing works because we're going to attempt in the next hour to drive the point home as to how this will affect you, whether you run a computer bulletin board system or use one or don't even use computers at all in your life.
[07:55.950 --> 08:09.050] [SPEAKER_08]: We have with us Charles Rowles and Jack Brooks of the Dorsi Diplomatic Mission, which is a computer bulletin board system here in New York City.
[08:09.570 --> 08:11.670] [SPEAKER_08]: And good evening to you both.
[08:11.910 --> 08:12.390] [SPEAKER_08]: Good evening.
[08:12.550 --> 08:12.870] [SPEAKER_08]: Good evening.
[08:13.130 --> 08:14.650] [SPEAKER_08]: And your microphones do work.
[08:14.730 --> 08:15.350] [SPEAKER_08]: That's nice to know.
[08:16.230 --> 08:18.950] [SPEAKER_08]: When did you first become aware of this law?
[08:19.050 --> 08:22.070] [SPEAKER_08]: First of all, what name does this law officially go by?
[08:22.210 --> 08:22.730] [SPEAKER_08]: Name, number?
[08:22.730 --> 08:32.110] [SPEAKER_12]: The name of the law is Senate Bill number 6079 or Assembly number 8491.
[08:33.270 --> 08:39.250] [SPEAKER_12]: It is an addendum to a bill for other purposes.
[08:39.250 --> 08:44.270] [SPEAKER_12]: It may be to clean up the environment, but this is a rider to that bill.
[08:44.490 --> 08:45.770] [SPEAKER_08]: It's tacked on to that bill.
[08:45.770 --> 08:46.830] [SPEAKER_12]: It's tacked on to that bill.
[08:47.010 --> 08:51.910] [SPEAKER_12]: If you're going to pass the good part of the law, you have to accept the bad part of the law.
[08:51.910 --> 08:52.450] [SPEAKER_08]: Who wrote it?
[08:52.950 --> 08:53.850] [SPEAKER_12]: We don't know.
[08:53.990 --> 09:09.110] [SPEAKER_12]: We are trying to ascertain that because I personally, as a private citizen, intend to publicize this man, what he has done to the personal computer hobbyist industry, and how he is killing it.
[09:09.190 --> 09:11.430] [SPEAKER_12]: And hopefully we can kill his political career.
[09:11.830 --> 09:14.550] [SPEAKER_08]: Well, that certainly would make people feel better.
[09:15.350 --> 09:18.710] [SPEAKER_08]: What are the chances of repealing a law like this quickly?
[09:19.470 --> 09:25.630] [SPEAKER_12]: Once the law is in effect, there is virtually no chance of repealing it.
[09:26.410 --> 09:26.870] [SPEAKER_12]: Period.
[09:27.230 --> 09:32.070] [SPEAKER_12]: The only thing we can hope for is to get a law passed to amend the law.
[09:32.850 --> 09:34.390] [SPEAKER_08]: To, in effect, nullify it.
[09:34.450 --> 09:35.770] [SPEAKER_12]: To, in effect, nullify it.
[09:36.070 --> 09:36.330] [SPEAKER_08]: Okay.
[09:36.450 --> 09:39.190] [SPEAKER_08]: Now, you folks run a computer bulletin board system.
[09:39.310 --> 09:42.030] [SPEAKER_08]: Why don't you tell us something about that first, then we'll get into the specifics.
[09:42.410 --> 09:42.750] [SPEAKER_12]: Okay.
[09:42.890 --> 09:47.370] [SPEAKER_12]: What we run is a public information service.
[09:49.030 --> 09:57.450] [SPEAKER_12]: The corporation that runs the bulletin board, the Dorsi Embassy Incorporate, is a not-for-profit corporation under the state of New York.
[09:57.770 --> 09:59.790] [SPEAKER_12]: We are a community service group.
[09:59.970 --> 10:04.410] [SPEAKER_12]: Running the bulletin board is just one of half a dozen things we do.
[10:06.370 --> 10:10.350] [SPEAKER_12]: It's just that the bulletin board is the most visible thing that we do.
[10:12.250 --> 10:15.890] [SPEAKER_12]: Our system is basically a free access system.
[10:15.890 --> 10:17.190] [SPEAKER_12]: You can call in.
[10:17.190 --> 10:19.530] [SPEAKER_12]: We will call you back and verify you.
[10:19.790 --> 10:25.970] [SPEAKER_12]: At that point, you can post messages, read FidoNet News, which is another news network.
[10:25.970 --> 10:34.430] [SPEAKER_12]: You can gain access to USENET, the Internet, which is a collection of corporate and educational computer systems.
[10:35.670 --> 10:41.710] [SPEAKER_12]: FidoNet has many, many thousands of nodes, many, many hundreds of thousands of users.
[10:42.510 --> 10:46.150] [SPEAKER_12]: USENET is the Sagan network.
[10:46.150 --> 10:49.270] [SPEAKER_12]: Billions upon billions upon billions of users.
[10:49.950 --> 10:54.170] [SPEAKER_12]: Thousands upon thousands upon thousands of sites.
[10:55.970 --> 11:03.610] [SPEAKER_12]: Sites, sites like The Well, sites like IBM Rochester, Minnesota, sites like Columbia.
[11:04.530 --> 11:13.590] [SPEAKER_12]: It is the grandfather of all Internet, of all the news networks, mail networks that are commonly in use.
[11:13.770 --> 11:16.230] [SPEAKER_08]: It's like a huge college campus, I like to think of.
[11:16.250 --> 11:16.690] [SPEAKER_12]: Basically.
[11:16.970 --> 11:18.130] [SPEAKER_12]: Basically, it's...
[11:19.290 --> 11:34.930] [SPEAKER_12]: For those people who are familiar with UNIX and familiar with the term X-Windows, USENET was where the entire X-Project was first conceptualized, where a lot of the development work happened, and it was finalized at MIT.
[11:36.090 --> 11:47.530] [SPEAKER_08]: Now, something like this, a law like this, ill-conceived law that does not understand the computer community, as you've described it, could completely destroy that community, could it not?
[11:47.750 --> 11:47.970] [SPEAKER_11]: Yes.
[11:48.310 --> 11:48.450] [SPEAKER_11]: Absolutely.
[11:49.170 --> 11:51.770] [SPEAKER_08]: Now, what are you folks doing about it?
[11:51.850 --> 11:55.690] [SPEAKER_08]: I understand you want to be a kind of a test case.
[11:55.990 --> 11:56.850] [SPEAKER_08]: Is that a fair term?
[11:56.850 --> 12:00.070] [SPEAKER_12]: Well, if we wind up a test case, we wind up a test case.
[12:00.730 --> 12:04.710] [SPEAKER_12]: A lot of local bulletin boards are taking their download sections down.
[12:05.370 --> 12:08.330] [SPEAKER_12]: What they don't realize is that's not going to save them.
[12:10.050 --> 12:10.730] [SPEAKER_12]: Why not?
[12:11.110 --> 12:27.430] [SPEAKER_12]: Very simply, if they have a text file, if they have a message on their system that can be construed to have real value, the mere fact of somebody dialing in and reading that message is the transfer of that information.
[12:28.410 --> 12:33.330] [SPEAKER_12]: The definition given here of software does not define software.
[12:34.630 --> 12:40.930] [SPEAKER_12]: And it could be assumed that that is information.
[12:41.850 --> 12:45.130] [SPEAKER_12]: Information has value, therefore it has a taxable value.
[12:45.130 --> 13:06.090] [SPEAKER_08]: So, to just get this completely straight, what they are saying is that every time somebody calls up your system and downloads a piece of software or perhaps even a text file, despite the fact that they're not paying anything for this, they're responsible for paying tax on a value that is determined by who?
[13:06.330 --> 13:07.690] [SPEAKER_12]: The state finance department.
[13:07.870 --> 13:09.830] [SPEAKER_12]: And they're not responsible for paying it.
[13:09.930 --> 13:11.730] [SPEAKER_12]: We are responsible for collecting it.
[13:11.730 --> 13:21.230] [SPEAKER_08]: So, you're supposed to collect sales tax on something that is downloaded over the computer telephones.
[13:21.290 --> 13:32.570] [SPEAKER_12]: We're supposed to collect a specified amount of sales tax on an unspecified value from an unspecified person.
[13:33.970 --> 13:35.390] [SPEAKER_12]: Our system is free.
[13:36.130 --> 13:37.590] [SPEAKER_12]: It's going to be free.
[13:37.590 --> 13:41.790] [SPEAKER_12]: It's going to be free up until the point they carry us and our systems away.
[13:42.310 --> 13:45.030] [SPEAKER_08]: Now, how would that work with an anonymous user?
[13:45.170 --> 13:47.990] [SPEAKER_08]: That's one of the beauties of computer communication.
[13:47.990 --> 13:50.150] [SPEAKER_08]: You can still be anonymous if you want to be.
[13:50.370 --> 14:03.450] [SPEAKER_12]: If the man downloads $100,000 in software, we are responsible for $8,250 worth of taxes.
[14:03.450 --> 14:09.450] [SPEAKER_08]: Well, isn't this just as crazy as, say, somebody saying you have to pay a tax if you Xerox something?
[14:09.930 --> 14:10.290] [SPEAKER_12]: Yes.
[14:10.690 --> 14:14.810] [SPEAKER_08]: And does anybody ever try to tax Xerox copies of documents?
[14:15.230 --> 14:17.810] [SPEAKER_12]: Well, this law might apply there, too.
[14:18.170 --> 14:18.330] [SPEAKER_11]: Uh-huh.
[14:18.570 --> 14:25.390] [SPEAKER_11]: Exactly, because it does say any transfer, any means.
[14:26.290 --> 14:31.330] [SPEAKER_11]: So, it could be any form, not just electronic.
[14:31.710 --> 14:37.770] [SPEAKER_11]: You could Xerox a computer program, and the Xerox could be taxable.
[14:37.950 --> 14:41.910] [SPEAKER_11]: Then, of course, the question is, is who are we talking about collecting the tax?
[14:42.550 --> 14:44.150] [SPEAKER_08]: The Xerox system operator.
[14:44.150 --> 14:44.870] [SPEAKER_11]: Exactly.
[14:45.370 --> 14:55.590] [SPEAKER_11]: Here, we're talking about the BBS operator being responsible for collecting the tax, the fair market value of that tax.
[14:56.270 --> 15:11.790] [SPEAKER_11]: A shareware program where the author has said, hey, I'm putting this in, and what I want is $20, and he's made a clone of 123, Lotus 123, for example, which sells for about $300.
[15:12.790 --> 15:33.730] [SPEAKER_11]: What we're really talking about, if he says, I'm going to sell this for $75, send the money to me, the bulletin board operator who is passing this shareware around is responsible for collecting the fair market value, not the value that the author has said on the software.
[15:34.470 --> 15:44.390] [SPEAKER_11]: Public domain software also is included in this, and it is the fair market value of the public domain software, which is free.
[15:44.750 --> 15:53.450] [SPEAKER_11]: But yet, we have to determine the fair market value of it, and then collect the fair market value on that value.
[15:54.250 --> 15:56.030] [SPEAKER_08]: You'll be swamped.
[15:56.030 --> 15:58.310] [SPEAKER_08]: It's just trying to figure all this out in itself.
[15:58.530 --> 15:59.170] [SPEAKER_11]: Absolutely.
[15:59.430 --> 16:01.950] [SPEAKER_08]: Let alone paying for something like this.
[16:01.950 --> 16:10.130] [SPEAKER_12]: The bottom line is, we have somewhat of a public policy statement in relationship to our operations.
[16:11.690 --> 16:26.390] [SPEAKER_12]: It states very simply, this is an official statement of policy in relationship to the Dorsi Embassy, Inc., a New York State not-for-profit community service group, and its operation of the Dorsi Diplomatic Mission Bulletin Board System.
[16:26.390 --> 16:30.930] [SPEAKER_12]: All costs of operation are borne by the Dorsi Embassy, Inc.
[16:31.250 --> 16:32.150] [SPEAKER_12]: in total.
[16:33.330 --> 16:38.210] [SPEAKER_12]: The Dorsi Diplomatic Mission Bulletin Board is a totally free public access hobby system.
[16:38.570 --> 16:43.510] [SPEAKER_12]: There are no upload-download ratios, connect-time charges, or post-per-call requirements.
[16:43.870 --> 16:50.030] [SPEAKER_12]: There are no exchange requirements or remuneration requirements for public access whatsoever.
[16:50.350 --> 16:55.010] [SPEAKER_08]: So it's pretty much the epitome of freedom of speech, what your board does.
[16:55.010 --> 16:56.450] [SPEAKER_12]: Let us step into this.
[16:57.130 --> 17:03.190] [SPEAKER_12]: We say, very specifically, there are no upload-download ratios, connect-time charges, or post-per-call requirements.
[17:03.370 --> 17:11.430] [SPEAKER_12]: These are forms of remuneration that a sysop may receive for the ability to download.
[17:14.190 --> 17:29.010] [SPEAKER_12]: If a sysop's board has any of these policies in effect, he is in effect being paid for the software that is being downloaded, and he is then liable for the taxes.
[17:30.590 --> 17:36.830] [SPEAKER_12]: This is under a determination given by the New York State Finance Department.
[17:37.150 --> 17:39.670] [SPEAKER_12]: It is a compromise they are offering.
[17:41.630 --> 17:50.390] [SPEAKER_12]: Quite frankly, I think we all ought to get up and take their compromise, and next time we go to the bathroom, use it well, and mail it back to them.
[17:51.670 --> 17:54.290] [SPEAKER_12]: Because this is a compromise.
[17:54.330 --> 17:55.670] [SPEAKER_12]: This is not a law.
[17:56.110 --> 18:00.910] [SPEAKER_12]: We have their good word that they're not going to enforce this law.
[18:01.590 --> 18:02.770] [SPEAKER_12]: Not this year.
[18:03.870 --> 18:06.010] [SPEAKER_12]: Next year, the year after.
[18:06.390 --> 18:09.950] [SPEAKER_08]: Do you think there's a real desire to get a law like this passed?
[18:10.130 --> 18:12.810] [SPEAKER_12]: The real desire is for dollars.
[18:13.870 --> 18:16.410] [SPEAKER_12]: New York State is hurting financially.
[18:16.790 --> 18:18.250] [SPEAKER_12]: And they will take a...
[18:18.790 --> 18:24.970] [SPEAKER_12]: If they could get an extra dollar by taking the milk out of a baby's mouth, they will do it.
[18:26.390 --> 18:52.990] [SPEAKER_12]: In destroying a system like Dorsai, some of our projects that we have going on, where we're taking corporations are giving us computers to take and refurbish and give to not-for-profit groups, to refurbish and give to physically handicapped, where we are taking young people who are borderline.
[18:52.990 --> 18:55.550] [SPEAKER_12]: They may succeed in life.
[18:55.730 --> 18:57.110] [SPEAKER_12]: They may fail in life.
[18:57.350 --> 19:02.050] [SPEAKER_12]: And saying, you will come with me if you wish, and you will learn computers.
[19:02.510 --> 19:13.150] [SPEAKER_12]: I had a young gentleman who, last week, last two weeks, he's bombed out twice in two very, very major areas of his life.
[19:13.610 --> 19:15.650] [SPEAKER_12]: He's been working with us for two years.
[19:16.390 --> 19:22.510] [SPEAKER_12]: He marched out and secured a job for $35,000 a year as a senior technician.
[19:24.290 --> 19:25.630] [SPEAKER_12]: I'm very, very proud of him.
[19:25.830 --> 19:27.830] [SPEAKER_12]: That's a product of what we do.
[19:30.930 --> 19:36.170] [SPEAKER_12]: You know, the type of law they're talking about, we would no longer be able to reach these people.
[19:36.970 --> 19:38.890] [SPEAKER_12]: They would no longer be able to reach us.
[19:40.490 --> 19:46.770] [SPEAKER_12]: And any of the information we pass to them, we would have to pay the tax on.
[19:46.770 --> 19:50.410] [SPEAKER_12]: It's not something that we can physically do.
[19:51.450 --> 20:12.370] [SPEAKER_12]: While it is our legal attache's opinion, and it is our opinion that because we are a not-for-profit organization, and because we do not receive remuneration for the operation of the board, we are not in any way affected by this law, this law could destroy the community,
[20:12.510 --> 20:13.910] [SPEAKER_12]: the BBS community.
[20:14.110 --> 20:23.770] [SPEAKER_12]: And anything that hurts the computer, the hobby's community, anything that diminishes that, diminishes me, diminishes Jack, diminishes us all.
[20:25.070 --> 20:25.510] [SPEAKER_08]: Absolutely.
[20:26.050 --> 20:30.870] [SPEAKER_08]: You said that the reason this is happening is because New York State is hurting financially.
[20:31.010 --> 20:32.750] [SPEAKER_08]: Do you think there might be more to it than that?
[20:32.830 --> 20:37.890] [SPEAKER_08]: Because destroying computer bulletin boards is it's high on the list of some people.
[20:38.010 --> 20:38.490] [SPEAKER_08]: I know that.
[20:39.010 --> 20:46.050] [SPEAKER_08]: Bulletin boards can be a real pain for those people that are annoyed by too much freedom of speech.
[20:46.270 --> 20:51.850] [SPEAKER_12]: Okay, if one reads the Constitution, the United States of America, we have the right to keep and bear arms.
[20:51.850 --> 21:04.330] [SPEAKER_12]: We have the right as the people of the United States of America that should the government become what we do not wish to pick up those arms and overthrow the government.
[21:05.210 --> 21:09.950] [SPEAKER_12]: The state of New York has already taken the right to keep and bear arms away from us.
[21:10.950 --> 21:21.150] [SPEAKER_12]: Now what they're doing is they're taking the rights to free speech, freedom of the press, and freedom of assembly in the method of our choice.
[21:21.850 --> 21:22.810] [SPEAKER_12]: away from us.
[21:22.950 --> 21:41.970] [SPEAKER_12]: They are taking away the ability of two not-so-literate people to reach out and touch 15,000 people in the course of a month and say, Dear Dorsai User, did you know?
[21:43.570 --> 21:48.210] [SPEAKER_12]: They are taking away the capability the ability for us to communicate.
[21:49.210 --> 21:51.590] [SPEAKER_12]: United we stand, divided we fall.
[21:52.810 --> 21:53.310] [SPEAKER_12]: Period.
[21:53.650 --> 21:54.070] [SPEAKER_12]: Simple.
[21:54.290 --> 22:01.270] [SPEAKER_08]: Do you think there's some kind of an agenda at work, though, specifically to do this kind of a thing, either here or in other parts of the country?
[22:01.270 --> 22:14.770] [SPEAKER_12]: While I have been known as an ultimately paranoid and ultimately very individualistic person, I don't believe that there is a grand plan.
[22:16.010 --> 22:27.070] [SPEAKER_12]: I do feel like that while bulletin boards have been known to be a pain in the side of, let us say, the big N-word, New York Telephone.
[22:27.370 --> 22:28.830] [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, NYNEX, you can say.
[22:29.090 --> 22:29.690] [SPEAKER_12]: NYNEX.
[22:29.930 --> 22:31.070] [SPEAKER_12]: Nice and simple that way.
[22:31.230 --> 22:31.530] [SPEAKER_12]: Yes.
[22:33.790 --> 22:35.370] [SPEAKER_12]: And AT&T.
[22:35.870 --> 22:37.150] [SPEAKER_08]: All the baby bells.
[22:37.470 --> 22:37.850] [SPEAKER_12]: Yes.
[22:38.610 --> 22:40.010] [SPEAKER_12]: Baby and mama bell.
[22:40.350 --> 22:46.370] [SPEAKER_12]: The bottom line is, we've been a thorn in their side, but do they have the lobbying capability?
[22:46.370 --> 22:53.530] [SPEAKER_12]: Do they have enough money to spread around and inflict something like this?
[22:55.210 --> 22:57.070] [SPEAKER_12]: Is it that important to them?
[22:59.630 --> 23:00.830] [SPEAKER_12]: They're businessmen.
[23:01.410 --> 23:20.010] [SPEAKER_12]: If the BBS community was costing them millions upon millions of dollars a month instead of putting millions upon millions of dollars a month into their pockets, I could see that AT&T, NYNEX, all the bells together would cause us a problem.
[23:21.830 --> 23:44.650] [SPEAKER_12]: No, I think this is a poorly written law because this same law, if impressed in all of its many facets, would shut down such businesses as Chemical Bank, Manihani, anybody that uses any type of electronic transfer, anybody who transfers documents, papers,
[23:45.110 --> 23:47.130] [SPEAKER_12]: backwards and forth, because those are information.
[23:48.130 --> 23:50.350] [SPEAKER_08]: Are you saying they could put a tax on...
[23:50.350 --> 23:53.790] [SPEAKER_08]: every time you take money out of the bank, the bank would have to pay a tax on that?
[23:53.890 --> 24:09.070] [SPEAKER_12]: What the bottom line is, you bank at Citibank, and you move from 115th Street at Branch 101 and you go down to 14th Street at Branch 3002.
[24:10.210 --> 24:22.590] [SPEAKER_12]: Citibank has a central data processing site that will take the value of your account, debit Branch 101, and credit Branch XYZ, wherever you move to.
[24:23.750 --> 24:33.950] [SPEAKER_12]: This is an information transaction for which the data processing site is paid money to process.
[24:35.890 --> 24:44.330] [SPEAKER_12]: Under the implications of this law, the real value of that transfer, i.e.
[24:44.350 --> 24:57.170] [SPEAKER_12]: your available balance, becomes a taxable transaction and Citibank should pay the taxes on the value of your transfer.
[24:57.850 --> 25:03.690] [SPEAKER_12]: You know, if you have $1,000 in your bank, they owe the state of New York $82.50.
[25:04.930 --> 25:11.270] [SPEAKER_12]: And quite frankly, if they want to tax the door side, fine, taxes.
[25:12.330 --> 25:14.450] [SPEAKER_12]: Make us responsible for collecting that taxes.
[25:14.670 --> 25:15.430] [SPEAKER_12]: We'll deal with it.
[25:16.290 --> 25:19.930] [SPEAKER_12]: I want Citibank, Manny Hanny, the city of New York.
[25:20.930 --> 25:30.370] [SPEAKER_12]: Anybody who transfers information in any medium, and any medium, gee, we're talking.
[25:30.530 --> 25:31.390] [SPEAKER_12]: Does this have a value?
[25:31.950 --> 25:33.630] [SPEAKER_12]: And who's responsible for the taxes?
[25:33.970 --> 25:35.190] [SPEAKER_12]: And who's going to collect them?
[25:35.430 --> 25:36.670] [SPEAKER_12]: And who do we pay them to?
[25:36.810 --> 25:38.430] [SPEAKER_12]: And what's the value of this discussion?
[25:38.510 --> 25:43.270] [SPEAKER_08]: Well, I hope they're not expecting me to collect taxes for this radio show, but we'll see what happens.
[25:43.630 --> 25:45.570] [SPEAKER_08]: Let me give out the phone number at this point.
[25:45.670 --> 25:49.670] [SPEAKER_08]: We'll be taking phone calls in about five minutes at 212-279-3400.
[25:49.670 --> 25:56.930] [SPEAKER_08]: We're talking to Charles Rawls and Jack Brooks of the Dorsi Diplomatic Mission, a bulletin board system here in New York.
[25:57.070 --> 26:08.470] [SPEAKER_08]: We're talking about a brand new New York state law that's taken effect that mandates that a tax be paid on software downloads and potentially all kinds of things.
[26:09.270 --> 26:11.490] [SPEAKER_08]: Has there been a very strong reaction against this?
[26:12.270 --> 26:13.010] [SPEAKER_12]: From home?
[26:13.510 --> 26:15.590] [SPEAKER_08]: Outside of your particular system.
[26:15.610 --> 26:15.890] [SPEAKER_12]: Yes.
[26:16.410 --> 26:20.430] [SPEAKER_12]: It's very well much through the New York City bulletin board community.
[26:20.690 --> 26:24.070] [SPEAKER_12]: It's very much through the New York State bulletin board community.
[26:24.410 --> 26:28.270] [SPEAKER_12]: It is completely across the Internet.
[26:28.750 --> 26:31.890] [SPEAKER_12]: New York BBS is the group that first picked this up.
[26:33.110 --> 26:37.190] [SPEAKER_12]: This, from what I understand, came into effect midnight Friday night.
[26:37.530 --> 26:44.570] [SPEAKER_12]: By 9 o'clock Saturday morning, we had the text files available for download on our board.
[26:45.050 --> 26:47.830] [SPEAKER_12]: And we had the determination available on our board.
[26:47.850 --> 26:48.890] [SPEAKER_12]: And we had bulletins up.
[26:50.010 --> 26:52.290] [SPEAKER_12]: So it's a very, very quick-moving situation.
[26:52.310 --> 26:54.010] [SPEAKER_12]: The problem is this is already law.
[26:54.750 --> 27:06.370] [SPEAKER_12]: The only reason a lot of bulletin boards are still in operation and the New York State Tax Department is not hauling people off to debtors' prison is the fact there is a federal restraining order on the law.
[27:07.550 --> 27:10.130] [SPEAKER_12]: How long that will last, no one knows.
[27:10.950 --> 27:15.250] [SPEAKER_12]: So there's been a very, very strong reaction.
[27:15.750 --> 27:24.530] [SPEAKER_12]: There have also been people who've said, well, I called the Department of Finance in Albany and they told me that this doesn't apply.
[27:25.250 --> 27:32.090] [SPEAKER_12]: Well, if it doesn't apply, write it on paper, make it a law, and then it applies.
[27:32.750 --> 27:34.170] [SPEAKER_12]: Anything else is a lie.
[27:34.990 --> 27:37.990] [SPEAKER_08]: You can't count on the word of a clerk over a telephone.
[27:38.250 --> 27:39.830] [SPEAKER_12]: You know, everything else is a lie.
[27:40.070 --> 27:40.470] [SPEAKER_12]: I'm sorry.
[27:40.850 --> 27:44.810] [SPEAKER_12]: Until it's law, you know, well, we'll make this compromise.
[27:45.190 --> 27:46.390] [SPEAKER_12]: You want to make a compromise?
[27:46.690 --> 27:50.550] [SPEAKER_12]: Great guys, write it down, make it a law, and we'll talk.
[27:50.690 --> 27:53.150] [SPEAKER_08]: Is there any other kind of a law like this anywhere else in the country?
[27:53.150 --> 27:57.370] [SPEAKER_12]: No, this is pretty much a landmark piece of legislation.
[27:58.070 --> 28:02.830] [SPEAKER_12]: And for it to be written as a landmark, it's very poorly written.
[28:02.890 --> 28:04.730] [SPEAKER_08]: Is there a law like this anywhere else in the world?
[28:04.950 --> 28:05.290] [SPEAKER_12]: No.
[28:05.650 --> 28:10.650] [SPEAKER_12]: Well, maybe there used to be in what used to be Russia, but...
[28:10.650 --> 28:15.030] [SPEAKER_08]: I don't think they downloaded much software over there, but that's something...
[28:15.030 --> 28:17.410] [SPEAKER_12]: They got it all off of our system, but anyway.
[28:19.330 --> 28:38.970] [SPEAKER_08]: We're taking phone calls at 212-279-3400 talking about this wonderful new law that's gone into effect, and we'll see if anybody out there has differing opinions on it, if anyone has filed their taxes already with whatever software or messages they've downloaded from various bulletin board systems.
[28:39.730 --> 28:41.290] [SPEAKER_08]: Let's take our first call.
[28:42.170 --> 28:42.970] [SPEAKER_08]: Good evening.
[28:43.470 --> 28:43.910] [SPEAKER_06]: Hi.
[28:44.110 --> 28:50.250] [SPEAKER_06]: I heard your discussion here about this new law, and I just wanted to give my comment on it.
[28:50.370 --> 28:51.550] [SPEAKER_06]: I think one...
[28:51.550 --> 28:54.210] [SPEAKER_06]: I think what's going to happen with this is that it won't...
[28:54.210 --> 28:58.630] [SPEAKER_06]: it won't kill the bulletin boards, but what it'll kill will be the downloading of software.
[28:59.010 --> 29:04.210] [SPEAKER_06]: And I think that the real villains behind this may be the...
[29:04.210 --> 29:11.510] [SPEAKER_06]: the big software houses that want to squash some of the shareware programming that's going on out there.
[29:12.170 --> 29:13.830] [SPEAKER_06]: And I think that's what the...
[29:13.830 --> 29:25.090] [SPEAKER_06]: what the effect of this will be, because I think that a lot of information like messages and those types of things don't have a fair market value, and so that they won't be taxed.
[29:25.210 --> 29:32.890] [SPEAKER_06]: And places like Citibank and whatever, you know that their lawyers will get right on the case and they'll be exempted somehow.
[29:32.930 --> 29:38.670] [SPEAKER_06]: But it's the little guys and the small shareware publishers that are going to get squashed by this.
[29:38.670 --> 29:43.010] [SPEAKER_08]: Well, you know, you say the little guys will get squashed, but look at the power of ham radio.
[29:43.250 --> 29:45.190] [SPEAKER_08]: You know, those are people that know how to lobby.
[29:45.870 --> 29:53.150] [SPEAKER_08]: And if you have the same kind of lobbying technique and computer bulletin board operators, don't you think it could mean something there?
[29:53.290 --> 29:53.770] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, sure.
[29:54.250 --> 29:56.790] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm not saying that, you know, the ballgame is over.
[29:56.850 --> 30:09.630] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm just saying that in terms of who is behind this legislation and what the real intent of it is, I think that possibly the telephone company might be one of the culprits they're being against the bulletin boards.
[30:09.750 --> 30:19.190] [SPEAKER_06]: But I somehow suspect that it's it might be the big software houses that want to, you know, in one fell swoop eliminate the whole shareware industry.
[30:19.610 --> 30:21.610] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, well, they tried computer viruses, didn't they?
[30:21.730 --> 30:22.370] [SPEAKER_08]: It didn't quite work.
[30:22.590 --> 30:27.650] [SPEAKER_06]: Well, that was bandied about that maybe they were behind some of that stuff, yeah.
[30:28.750 --> 30:29.370] [SPEAKER_06]: So, anyway.
[30:29.690 --> 30:32.670] [SPEAKER_08]: Okay, do you have any specific questions to our guests?
[30:32.890 --> 30:34.570] [SPEAKER_06]: Well, no, I guess not.
[30:34.690 --> 30:35.190] [SPEAKER_06]: Just the comment.
[30:35.650 --> 30:36.070] [SPEAKER_06]: Thanks a lot.
[30:36.270 --> 30:36.850] [SPEAKER_06]: Thanks for calling.
[30:37.290 --> 30:40.210] [SPEAKER_11]: I think your points were very well taken there.
[30:41.030 --> 30:47.950] [SPEAKER_11]: And the shareware demise is something that I think is a very good point.
[30:48.650 --> 30:52.730] [SPEAKER_11]: You did say something that sparked something else.
[30:52.890 --> 31:02.670] [SPEAKER_11]: If you comply as a sysop and pay this tax, you automatically become a business.
[31:02.670 --> 31:07.510] [SPEAKER_11]: business, you no longer can say that you are doing your hobby.
[31:07.710 --> 31:11.210] [SPEAKER_11]: You no longer can use your personal telephone.
[31:11.210 --> 31:18.690] [SPEAKER_11]: You have to have a business telephone in order to conduct your business, which you are paying tax on.
[31:19.810 --> 31:22.990] [SPEAKER_08]: So, it's kind of a trap, in other words.
[31:23.130 --> 31:23.610] [SPEAKER_12]: Absolutely.
[31:23.610 --> 31:38.790] [SPEAKER_12]: You can obey the law and watch your cost of operations quintuple, plus the fact that the way the law is written, we have no definition on software.
[31:40.970 --> 31:47.250] [SPEAKER_12]: You know, that's software in a very, very broad interpretation is information.
[31:48.010 --> 31:50.770] [SPEAKER_12]: The text files, the binary files.
[31:50.970 --> 32:11.290] [SPEAKER_12]: If they're going to tell me that, gee, if they'll define software as binary files, I'll take every file I have on the door side, use a system called UU encode, convert it all to text files, and say, hey guys, it's a message, read it, and tax me.
[32:12.250 --> 32:13.850] [SPEAKER_11]: No, and not tax you.
[32:14.710 --> 32:17.970] [SPEAKER_12]: Tax me and we'll apply your definition.
[32:18.390 --> 32:22.450] [SPEAKER_12]: But there is no definition of what is software.
[32:23.690 --> 32:27.530] [SPEAKER_08]: You think that's because there's so little understanding of how it all works?
[32:27.870 --> 32:34.970] [SPEAKER_12]: There is no evidence of any understanding at all into the hobbyist community.
[32:36.050 --> 32:38.050] [SPEAKER_11]: I think it goes much further than that.
[32:38.170 --> 32:44.470] [SPEAKER_11]: I don't believe there's any understanding of what they're talking about in this law.
[32:44.690 --> 32:52.530] [SPEAKER_11]: Here we have people who are supposed to be educated people writing laws about things which they know absolutely nothing.
[32:53.090 --> 32:57.530] [SPEAKER_11]: Namely, the vocabulary of the field that they are writing laws about.
[32:57.850 --> 32:59.610] [SPEAKER_11]: Namely, software.
[32:59.990 --> 33:01.430] [SPEAKER_11]: What is software?
[33:01.710 --> 33:09.310] [SPEAKER_11]: Software is such a very large category that they didn't even bother to define it.
[33:09.310 --> 33:11.810] [SPEAKER_11]: I mean, come on fellows.
[33:12.830 --> 33:14.670] [SPEAKER_11]: That's one of the basic things here.
[33:14.810 --> 33:17.790] [SPEAKER_11]: You must define what you're talking about.
[33:18.110 --> 33:25.850] [SPEAKER_08]: Now, I think one thing we can all agree upon is that the people writing the laws aren't experts on computers, software, that kind of thing.
[33:25.990 --> 33:27.910] [SPEAKER_08]: How can we educate these people?
[33:29.550 --> 33:44.690] [SPEAKER_12]: Look, Mario Como, Alphonse D'Amato, when I walk into our space, I will dedicate an entire week and I make a good bit of money in a week to sit down and teach them about software.
[33:44.910 --> 33:50.170] [SPEAKER_12]: I'll teach them about the community, where it came from, where it's going.
[33:50.470 --> 33:57.390] [SPEAKER_12]: The entire micro computer industry was not a creation of IBM.
[33:57.910 --> 34:00.290] [SPEAKER_12]: It was not a creation of Apple.
[34:00.810 --> 34:03.710] [SPEAKER_12]: It existed before any of these people.
[34:04.350 --> 34:20.230] [SPEAKER_12]: When I started in micros, and I'm not going to say how long ago, because I'm not going to tell my age, I knew there was one person in the entire state of Texas had exactly my setup.
[34:20.590 --> 34:28.210] [SPEAKER_12]: I knew his home phone number, I knew his work phone number, and he and I talked almost every other night, exchanging information.
[34:31.570 --> 34:43.430] [SPEAKER_12]: You know, this little wonderful thing they call the IBM PC grew out of a lot of people like me, which became Apple, which became IBM.
[34:44.670 --> 34:46.230] [SPEAKER_12]: That's where it came from.
[34:46.230 --> 34:47.430] [SPEAKER_12]: It's being killed now.
[34:47.650 --> 34:55.450] [SPEAKER_08]: The way a lot of us in the hacker world look at all this is there's two different kinds of rules of playing any game.
[34:55.570 --> 34:58.370] [SPEAKER_08]: There's the corporate rules and there's the individual rules.
[34:58.730 --> 35:04.930] [SPEAKER_08]: In corporations, you pay huge inflated prices for things that individuals just pass around freely.
[35:05.590 --> 35:11.770] [SPEAKER_08]: Do you see this as perhaps an attempt to inflict those corporate rules onto the general populace?
[35:12.270 --> 35:13.710] [SPEAKER_12]: It has that effect.
[35:13.970 --> 35:15.070] [SPEAKER_12]: It has that effect.
[35:15.850 --> 35:21.090] [SPEAKER_08]: It hasn't worked out too much in the past, so you can be a bit optimistic perhaps.
[35:22.010 --> 35:24.070] [SPEAKER_08]: Okay, our number is 279-3400.
[35:24.210 --> 35:25.130] [SPEAKER_08]: Let's see who else is out there.
[35:25.390 --> 35:25.750] [SPEAKER_08]: Good evening.
[35:26.190 --> 35:26.810] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah, hi.
[35:27.730 --> 35:30.510] [SPEAKER_01]: I was wondering, well, two points.
[35:30.770 --> 35:37.730] [SPEAKER_01]: One, the point you brought up about ham radio operators and lobbying, that's not necessarily so.
[35:37.790 --> 35:41.890] [SPEAKER_01]: They just lost a large chunk of their spectrum in the 220 megahertz range.
[35:42.570 --> 35:45.090] [SPEAKER_08]: Are you telling me they didn't get anything in return for it?
[35:45.250 --> 35:46.070] [SPEAKER_01]: No, no.
[35:46.610 --> 35:54.090] [SPEAKER_01]: The FCC gave it to, I believe, UPS, and like FedEx and companies like that.
[35:56.370 --> 35:57.510] [SPEAKER_01]: That's pretty embarrassing.
[35:57.510 --> 36:03.150] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and so, you know, as far as their lobbying powers, they're actually pretty weak.
[36:03.670 --> 36:18.470] [SPEAKER_01]: But I'm curious, I'm going to have to just ask this question and hang up, but I'm curious if the guys from Delphi feel that like CompuServe and Genie and companies like that are going to give them any assistance.
[36:18.810 --> 36:22.930] [SPEAKER_01]: It would seem to me that they would be even more than Delphi.
[36:23.050 --> 36:27.830] [SPEAKER_01]: They would have a much larger tax load for something like this.
[36:29.250 --> 36:29.850] [SPEAKER_01]: I've got to go.
[36:30.030 --> 36:30.230] [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks.
[36:30.370 --> 36:31.170] [SPEAKER_08]: Thanks for calling.
[36:31.310 --> 36:32.190] [SPEAKER_08]: I'm sure you have a correction.
[36:32.310 --> 36:36.470] [SPEAKER_12]: Okay, for the caller, first of all, this is the Dorsai diplomatic mission.
[36:36.590 --> 36:38.230] [SPEAKER_12]: This is not Delphi online.
[36:40.370 --> 36:41.970] [SPEAKER_08]: You get that kind of confusion a lot?
[36:42.570 --> 36:43.450] [SPEAKER_12]: Not really.
[36:43.830 --> 36:47.270] [SPEAKER_12]: We're amazingly much more professional than Delphi.
[36:48.170 --> 36:51.450] [SPEAKER_08]: I'm sure that will generate a lot of controversy, but just continue.
[36:54.270 --> 37:06.390] [SPEAKER_12]: It's a very, very mixed bag as to whether CompuServe, Delphi, Genie, et cetera, et cetera, will handle this.
[37:06.950 --> 37:17.870] [SPEAKER_12]: I have a feeling what they're going to do is they're just going to pass on the amount of the tax in your monthly bill and say, hey, guys, you downloaded software that we think is valued at $1,500.
[37:18.630 --> 37:26.810] [SPEAKER_12]: Well, you owe us $120-some-odd in taxes and pass it on to the state.
[37:26.910 --> 37:27.990] [SPEAKER_12]: I don't think they're going to fight it.
[37:28.890 --> 37:35.790] [SPEAKER_11]: Charles, as a software person, do you think they have the software in place at this time?
[37:35.970 --> 37:43.050] [SPEAKER_11]: To make that kind of a determination of the value of the software and charge it to the individual subscribers?
[37:44.590 --> 37:46.690] [SPEAKER_12]: No, but it wouldn't be hard to do that.
[37:47.110 --> 37:59.110] [SPEAKER_12]: It would not be very hard at all because all I have to do is go through the basic caller log and say you downloaded file A, file B, and file C and our best guess on the taxable...
[37:59.110 --> 38:00.450] [SPEAKER_08]: That's assuming that there is a file log.
[38:00.610 --> 38:03.050] [SPEAKER_08]: Is there going to be a law saying you have to keep a file log?
[38:03.050 --> 38:03.810] [SPEAKER_12]: Probably.
[38:05.290 --> 38:10.350] [SPEAKER_12]: What you'll have to do is you will have to produce records of transactions.
[38:10.770 --> 38:33.130] [SPEAKER_12]: You'll have to open your BBS caller log to some guy from the state who's going to go through and say, well, I have this little program here on my PC and I'm going to type in the name of all the programs which we have in your file listing that you've downloaded and that's going to give us a dollar value of worth that we say the programs are worth.
[38:33.830 --> 38:36.970] [SPEAKER_12]: Oh, you downloaded as easy as six times.
[38:36.970 --> 38:38.590] [SPEAKER_12]: Well, that's $1,800.
[38:39.100 --> 38:44.190] [SPEAKER_12]: You downloaded ProCom Plus Test Drive 10 times.
[38:44.190 --> 38:46.750] [SPEAKER_12]: That's $750 worth of taxable value.
[38:47.730 --> 38:53.950] [SPEAKER_12]: Okay, grand total is you owe us $18,000 or such in...
[38:54.610 --> 39:01.050] [SPEAKER_08]: For a 12-year-old that downloads software, that's going to be quite a crippling bill there.
[39:01.330 --> 39:08.970] [SPEAKER_08]: Now, let's address the person that doesn't really use computers, that doesn't download software, doesn't even have a computer.
[39:09.770 --> 39:11.690] [SPEAKER_08]: Should they be concerned about something like this?
[39:11.750 --> 39:11.930] [SPEAKER_08]: Yes.
[39:12.230 --> 39:12.450] [SPEAKER_08]: Why?
[39:13.230 --> 39:37.810] [SPEAKER_12]: Okay, very simply, if this flies, if this law goes through in this format, anything which involves an information transfer, and that's not just computers, that's photocopying, that's a book, you name it, will become taxable.
[39:38.370 --> 39:44.550] [SPEAKER_12]: At some point, information will stop flowing because it's simply too expensive to flow.
[39:44.730 --> 39:48.730] [SPEAKER_08]: So, theoretically, you lend the book to a friend and that becomes And you'll become taxable.
[39:49.750 --> 39:54.130] [SPEAKER_12]: That transaction, you would owe the taxable value of the book.
[39:55.690 --> 39:58.750] [SPEAKER_12]: Now, of course, that is not the cover price of the book.
[39:59.170 --> 40:03.390] [SPEAKER_12]: That is what the New York State Finance Department says the value of the book is.
[40:04.290 --> 40:20.550] [SPEAKER_08]: Now, people will say, of course, it's impossible to legislate lending books out, but if you add to that the fact that more and more of what we do in our daily lives is being done electronically, you'll see that we're moving towards electronic publications,
[40:20.930 --> 40:24.350] [SPEAKER_08]: we're moving towards electronic transfer of various bits of data.
[40:24.750 --> 40:31.530] [SPEAKER_08]: So, if it only applies to that, then slowly, but surely, it's going to become the norm for all of us.
[40:31.750 --> 40:31.970] [SPEAKER_11]: Yes.
[40:32.310 --> 40:34.810] [SPEAKER_11]: That's exactly why we're so outraged.
[40:35.370 --> 40:37.290] [SPEAKER_11]: This will become the norm.
[40:37.630 --> 40:40.610] [SPEAKER_11]: Right now, it's on the breaking edge.
[40:40.850 --> 40:51.790] [SPEAKER_11]: And if we, collectively, everyone out there takes and writes the governor of the state of New York and says, what the heck are you guys doing in Albany?
[40:52.410 --> 40:54.750] [SPEAKER_11]: That is how this law will get changed.
[40:55.070 --> 40:58.910] [SPEAKER_11]: And it will affect generations to come.
[40:59.130 --> 41:03.410] [SPEAKER_11]: If we do nothing and sit back, it will affect generations to come.
[41:03.650 --> 41:07.030] [SPEAKER_11]: And they will be slaves to the system.
[41:07.870 --> 41:17.850] [SPEAKER_08]: We'll give a number out at the end of the show, but I wanted to ask you now if there's a particular number of people can call to either get you or a central organizing committee or anything like this.
[41:18.530 --> 41:25.610] [SPEAKER_12]: The closest that we have right now is you can call the Dorsai diplomatic mission at 431-1944.
[41:25.970 --> 41:27.310] [SPEAKER_12]: That's a data line.
[41:28.330 --> 41:29.470] [SPEAKER_08]: What about voice lines?
[41:29.570 --> 41:30.070] [SPEAKER_08]: Do you have any of those?
[41:30.170 --> 41:32.190] [SPEAKER_12]: We have no voice lines as of yet.
[41:33.930 --> 41:37.150] [SPEAKER_12]: This has struck at a most unique time for us.
[41:37.290 --> 41:43.410] [SPEAKER_12]: We have just purchased a building that we were going to follow in the steps of the Boston Computer Society with.
[41:44.550 --> 41:55.130] [SPEAKER_12]: We've purchased a building and it was going to be the housing for the Dorsai diplomatic mission and the Dorsai embassy and its support staff.
[41:56.010 --> 42:02.110] [SPEAKER_12]: There's going to be public access meeting areas, public access computing areas.
[42:10.880 --> 42:20.900] [SPEAKER_12]: One of the things that could very easily have been done, since we would have a large number of phone lines anyway, is just throw out some phones and have some people man the phones and pass out the information.
[42:22.160 --> 42:34.000] [SPEAKER_12]: We're right now, we just, as I said, just bought the building and we're now trying to scrape up the money to do things like put in a roof, put in electricity, water, gas, flooring.
[42:34.000 --> 42:36.100] [SPEAKER_08]: Is there an address people can write to them?
[42:36.200 --> 42:37.820] [SPEAKER_08]: I'm just thinking of those people that don't have computers.
[42:38.500 --> 42:47.080] [SPEAKER_12]: The Dorsai diplomatic mission, 428 Broom Street, loft 5R, New York, New York, 10013.
[42:48.040 --> 42:56.280] [SPEAKER_08]: Okay, and if you missed those numbers or that address, we'll repeat them at the end of the show, be more prepared when we do that, and you won't miss them a second time.
[42:57.320 --> 42:59.400] [SPEAKER_08]: 279-3400, area code 212.
[42:59.940 --> 43:01.180] [SPEAKER_08]: Let's take another call.
[43:01.680 --> 43:02.260] [SPEAKER_08]: Good evening.
[43:03.100 --> 43:04.800] [SPEAKER_10]: Hello, am I on the air?
[43:04.960 --> 43:05.560] [SPEAKER_08]: Yes, you are.
[43:06.160 --> 43:06.420] [SPEAKER_10]: All right.
[43:06.760 --> 43:11.120] [SPEAKER_10]: Well, God, I was just driving home and I heard this message.
[43:11.460 --> 43:13.800] [SPEAKER_10]: I mean, I heard what you said about this law.
[43:13.940 --> 43:15.020] [SPEAKER_10]: Who came up with this law?
[43:15.680 --> 43:16.900] [SPEAKER_12]: We haven't figured that out yet.
[43:16.900 --> 43:18.340] [SPEAKER_12]: Our elected officials.
[43:18.820 --> 43:20.160] [SPEAKER_10]: ...or someone like that?
[43:21.060 --> 43:24.400] [SPEAKER_10]: How much is it going to cost to enforce such a law?
[43:24.520 --> 43:26.180] [SPEAKER_10]: Think of all the software they'd have to write.
[43:26.580 --> 43:28.920] [SPEAKER_10]: Everything they'd have to do, it just seems crazy.
[43:28.920 --> 43:42.440] [SPEAKER_10]: It seems like the costs would outweigh the benefits, especially when it comes to something like trying to track down all these people using computers, downloading software.
[43:42.440 --> 43:47.300] [SPEAKER_10]: I just downloaded probably, I don't know, 60 or 70 messages today off of Internet.
[43:47.620 --> 43:49.220] [SPEAKER_10]: That's like every single day.
[43:49.480 --> 43:51.160] [SPEAKER_10]: I can't even imagine.
[43:52.180 --> 43:54.200] [SPEAKER_10]: God, it just seems crazy.
[43:54.420 --> 44:07.260] [SPEAKER_12]: No, the bottom line is what's going to happen is Mr. Sissop's going to be sitting at home chatting very blithely away with a user on the phone line and going to come and knock at his door.
[44:07.480 --> 44:16.300] [SPEAKER_12]: And at the door is going to be a federal marshal with a shotgun that's loaded and he's going to say, I'm from the New York State Finance and Taxation Department.
[44:16.480 --> 44:22.160] [SPEAKER_12]: We have come to take your computer because you haven't paid your taxes.
[44:23.020 --> 44:24.980] [SPEAKER_10]: Well, this is state, not federal, right?
[44:25.040 --> 44:25.720] [SPEAKER_12]: This is state.
[44:26.060 --> 44:35.100] [SPEAKER_10]: So, if I, for example, wanted to have people download stuff in New York, I could just go ahead and set up a BBS in New Jersey and get away with it, right?
[44:35.260 --> 44:39.080] [SPEAKER_11]: Absolutely, but you walk into the state of New York and you could be arrested.
[44:39.840 --> 44:40.160] [SPEAKER_12]: Uh-huh.
[44:40.580 --> 44:46.880] [SPEAKER_12]: And also, understand there are reciprocal agreements for extradition and prosecution between New York and New Jersey.
[44:47.480 --> 44:48.260] [SPEAKER_10]: Oh, I mean...
[44:48.260 --> 44:50.080] [SPEAKER_12]: Particularly pertaining to taxes.
[44:50.640 --> 44:52.480] [SPEAKER_10]: I bought a car in New Jersey.
[44:52.720 --> 44:53.160] [SPEAKER_12]: Yes.
[44:53.480 --> 44:55.740] [SPEAKER_10]: I have to pay New York State sales tax on it.
[44:56.400 --> 44:56.740] [SPEAKER_11]: Uh-huh.
[44:56.900 --> 44:58.940] [SPEAKER_11]: Now you know exactly what we're talking about.
[44:59.160 --> 45:01.220] [SPEAKER_10]: Oh, I mean, it just seems crazy.
[45:01.360 --> 45:02.360] [SPEAKER_10]: It just really...
[45:02.360 --> 45:04.480] [SPEAKER_11]: We agree with you completely about that.
[45:04.680 --> 45:05.840] [SPEAKER_10]: Is there any way to stop it?
[45:05.920 --> 45:06.640] [SPEAKER_10]: Is it too late?
[45:06.800 --> 45:07.140] [SPEAKER_10]: Is there any...
[45:07.140 --> 45:08.060] [SPEAKER_11]: It is too late.
[45:08.220 --> 45:09.260] [SPEAKER_10]: It is the law.
[45:09.480 --> 45:10.740] [SPEAKER_10]: How did they go ahead and do this?
[45:10.960 --> 45:19.220] [SPEAKER_12]: It was written into another bill which had, I believe, was to do with attempting to save the environment.
[45:19.220 --> 45:21.760] [SPEAKER_12]: I'm very much for saving the environment.
[45:21.980 --> 45:25.420] [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, that really seems to go right along with this a lot.
[45:25.980 --> 45:27.900] [SPEAKER_12]: Well, no, it's called log rolling.
[45:28.120 --> 45:30.620] [SPEAKER_08]: It's called how we write laws here in this country.
[45:30.900 --> 45:32.200] [SPEAKER_12]: It's called log rolling.
[45:32.820 --> 45:37.120] [SPEAKER_12]: I want to go on record as doing something great and fantastic.
[45:37.580 --> 45:47.240] [SPEAKER_12]: And Joe Blowover over there that owes me a favor, or I owe him a favor, he wants to be named the Grand Hypooba of the state of Borneo.
[45:47.680 --> 45:55.300] [SPEAKER_12]: Well, we attach a writer to this law that says we're going to name Joe Blow the Grand Hypooba of the state of Borneo.
[45:55.780 --> 46:02.880] [SPEAKER_12]: And when the ecology bill is signed, it's now law that he is the Grand Hypooba of the state of Borneo.
[46:03.940 --> 46:05.200] [SPEAKER_12]: That's how it's done.
[46:05.480 --> 46:06.580] [SPEAKER_10]: This law doesn't stand up.
[46:06.640 --> 46:14.120] [SPEAKER_10]: I'm sure it wouldn't stand up in the test in court unless, of course, we get more justices and judges like the ones we've been.
[46:14.300 --> 46:28.460] [SPEAKER_12]: Well, what the bottom line is, I'm sure since we've appeared on the air, and by the way, for those members of the New York State Tax Department, my name is Charles Rawls, R-A-W-L-S.
[46:29.860 --> 46:33.080] [SPEAKER_12]: Spell it right on the warrant for my arrest, please.
[46:37.320 --> 46:38.860] [SPEAKER_12]: You know, they are listening.
[46:39.080 --> 46:41.360] [SPEAKER_12]: We are a not-for-profit organization.
[46:41.360 --> 46:43.780] [SPEAKER_12]: We've applied for 501c3.
[46:45.180 --> 46:48.360] [SPEAKER_12]: We have been constrained by our...
[46:49.980 --> 47:01.340] [SPEAKER_12]: by the sensitivity of the fact that we're asking the state to extend to us an exemption so we've not been wanting to run around and raise a lot of stink.
[47:02.100 --> 47:07.040] [SPEAKER_12]: But this is something that, you know, very easily could be the death of our industry.
[47:07.540 --> 47:09.700] [SPEAKER_12]: It could be the death of our hobbies.
[47:10.000 --> 47:11.400] [SPEAKER_10]: It went federal, it would.
[47:12.280 --> 47:13.540] [SPEAKER_12]: Well, think about it.
[47:13.580 --> 47:14.340] [SPEAKER_08]: The death of many people's social lives.
[47:14.720 --> 47:15.460] [SPEAKER_12]: Think about it.
[47:16.180 --> 47:27.800] [SPEAKER_12]: They say, I saw, and I'm not going to quote the source because I don't remember the source, that 40% of the computers, microcomputers sold in the U.S.
[47:28.580 --> 47:30.820] [SPEAKER_12]: were sold for hobbyist purposes.
[47:31.700 --> 47:31.960] [SPEAKER_12]: Okay?
[47:32.880 --> 47:34.500] [SPEAKER_12]: Can everyone buy that?
[47:34.640 --> 47:35.360] [SPEAKER_12]: I hope so.
[47:35.880 --> 47:39.800] [SPEAKER_12]: Now, that means that 40% of the computers sold in New York City.
[47:39.960 --> 47:43.280] [SPEAKER_12]: Let's just take New York City are sold for hobbyist purposes.
[47:44.600 --> 47:48.060] [SPEAKER_12]: Now, this law could shut down the hobbyist industry.
[47:48.960 --> 47:51.360] [SPEAKER_12]: You know, I'm sorry, you're not going to call a bulletin board?
[47:52.300 --> 48:08.120] [SPEAKER_12]: Gee, you know, one guy out of ten who would be considering buying a computer might consider, okay, gee, I'm going to buy a computer to run Lotus 1-2-3 to figure my taxes, do my checkbook, and maybe play a video game.
[48:09.260 --> 48:13.040] [SPEAKER_10]: If you buy Lotus 1-2-3, you already pay the sales tax on it if you can.
[48:13.260 --> 48:19.900] [SPEAKER_11]: Oh, yeah, but what about the templates that you might want to download from your local BBS?
[48:20.500 --> 48:23.760] [SPEAKER_10]: You make the software yourself and you transfer it to your brother.
[48:23.900 --> 48:24.740] [SPEAKER_10]: I guess you got to...
[48:24.740 --> 48:25.380] [SPEAKER_11]: No, no, no.
[48:25.380 --> 48:28.660] [SPEAKER_11]: If it's transferred to your brother, you have to pay taxes on it.
[48:28.840 --> 48:29.820] [SPEAKER_10]: Oh, yeah, of course.
[48:30.180 --> 48:32.280] [SPEAKER_11]: Because it's not written to his specification.
[48:32.780 --> 48:33.320] [SPEAKER_12]: That's right.
[48:34.000 --> 48:34.300] [SPEAKER_12]: Okay.
[48:35.360 --> 48:36.200] [SPEAKER_10]: What was their motive?
[48:36.560 --> 48:37.480] [SPEAKER_10]: I just want to understand.
[48:37.660 --> 48:38.100] [SPEAKER_12]: Money.
[48:38.520 --> 48:40.900] [SPEAKER_12]: M-O-N-E-Y.
[48:41.340 --> 48:45.100] [SPEAKER_10]: Really think this is going to ultimately make more money for everybody?
[48:45.480 --> 49:02.720] [SPEAKER_12]: Ultimately, what I think it will be, as I was talking about, is pretty soon we'll have 40% of the computer salesmen out of work, 40% of the computer technicians out of work, 40% of the computer manufacturers out of work, 40% of the chip manufacturers out of work.
[49:03.000 --> 49:04.480] [SPEAKER_12]: Where are they all going to draw their unemployment?
[49:04.860 --> 49:08.440] [SPEAKER_12]: From all the taxes the state of New York is collecting from the sysops.
[49:09.100 --> 49:13.480] [SPEAKER_10]: Well, yeah, it's like taking the train apart to feed the engine so you can go further.
[49:13.740 --> 49:13.900] [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah.
[49:13.900 --> 49:15.360] [SPEAKER_11]: Right, exactly.
[49:15.680 --> 49:16.400] [SPEAKER_08]: Thanks for your call.
[49:16.540 --> 49:17.220] [SPEAKER_08]: We're going to move on.
[49:17.660 --> 49:31.860] [SPEAKER_08]: Now, if possibly you could tell us the title of the law again, the number of the law, the section, so people can do some research out there, find out who's responsible for this, and hopefully next time we're on the air we'll have some names to name.
[49:32.160 --> 49:42.500] [SPEAKER_12]: Okay, it is Senate Bill number 6079, and Assembly number 8491.
[49:44.060 --> 50:00.400] [SPEAKER_12]: It states, purports to be paragraphs 5 and 6 of subdivision B of section 1101 of the tax law, as added by chapter 93 of the laws of 1965, are amended to read as follows, etc., etc.
[50:01.500 --> 50:07.900] [SPEAKER_12]: Those numbers again are Senate number 6079, and Assembly number 8491.
[50:09.360 --> 50:09.800] [SPEAKER_12]: Okay.
[50:09.960 --> 50:11.900] [SPEAKER_12]: And that's all we have on it.
[50:12.080 --> 50:15.380] [SPEAKER_08]: All right, let's try to race through some more phone calls in the time that we have left.
[50:15.500 --> 50:16.400] [SPEAKER_08]: The program is off the hook.
[50:16.680 --> 50:17.960] [SPEAKER_08]: This is Emmanuel Goldstein.
[50:18.140 --> 50:28.920] [SPEAKER_08]: We're here until 10 o'clock speaking about a disturbing new law that's gone into effect that pretty much tells people they have to pay a tax every time they download software.
[50:30.020 --> 50:34.520] [SPEAKER_08]: It's possible this next line is not working because it's been acting funny, so be prepared.
[50:34.800 --> 50:36.100] [SPEAKER_08]: Is this line working?
[50:36.940 --> 50:37.860] [SPEAKER_08]: No, it is not.
[50:37.980 --> 50:38.200] [SPEAKER_08]: Okay.
[50:38.900 --> 50:40.000] [SPEAKER_08]: Let's go to another call.
[50:40.260 --> 50:40.740] [SPEAKER_08]: Good evening.
[50:42.340 --> 50:42.820] [SPEAKER_08]: Hello?
[50:44.680 --> 50:45.840] [SPEAKER_07]: Okay, there's nobody there.
[50:46.080 --> 50:46.780] [SPEAKER_08]: Good evening.
[50:47.160 --> 50:47.360] [SPEAKER_07]: Hello.
[50:47.620 --> 50:47.920] [SPEAKER_07]: Go ahead.
[50:48.160 --> 50:50.280] [SPEAKER_07]: Boy, this really raises a menagerie of thoughts.
[50:50.620 --> 50:58.560] [SPEAKER_07]: This is kind of similar to the SNL bailout that people are being asked to make up for overspending, misappropriation, etc.
[50:59.240 --> 51:01.820] [SPEAKER_07]: And you were talking about the Bill of Rights before.
[51:02.120 --> 51:04.760] [SPEAKER_07]: The Bill of Rights is now on a tour.
[51:04.960 --> 51:06.280] [SPEAKER_07]: It's going around the country.
[51:06.560 --> 51:12.340] [SPEAKER_07]: I happened to be speaking with a guy from the Blue Press, which happens to actually be a very conservative magazine.
[51:12.940 --> 51:20.500] [SPEAKER_07]: And the editor of the Blue Press was telling me that he calls this tour of the Bill of Rights the Goodbye, Farewell Tour.
[51:21.220 --> 51:26.600] [SPEAKER_07]: He said because a lot of the amendments are being knocked away, chiseled away little by little.
[51:27.020 --> 51:29.280] [SPEAKER_07]: And this is another sort of example of it.
[51:29.580 --> 51:35.080] [SPEAKER_07]: And in my own personal life, I'm sort of going through an equivalent of what you've been discussing.
[51:35.080 --> 51:38.520] [SPEAKER_07]: So this really strikes home very, very carefully.
[51:38.900 --> 51:52.960] [SPEAKER_07]: And I have to tell you that you must, there's no question, I know that you've discussed this quite a bit, you have to make sure that you create a tidal wave of reaction against this thing because it's just going to lead to one and another and another in an effort to get money.
[51:53.100 --> 51:56.420] [SPEAKER_07]: And you're right, they would take money away from a baby.
[51:56.420 --> 51:57.060] [SPEAKER_07]: They would.
[51:57.160 --> 52:03.100] [SPEAKER_07]: They would take the milk away from a baby just to be able to get the monetary equivalent of it.
[52:04.060 --> 52:13.300] [SPEAKER_07]: And if this thing does go through, I'm afraid that the prosecutions that result from it are going to be highlighted along the likes of which have already been in 2600.
[52:13.600 --> 52:16.000] [SPEAKER_07]: This whole thing is just, it's terrible.
[52:17.620 --> 52:26.100] [SPEAKER_08]: Okay, well, if the, if the Bill of Rights and the Constitution is indeed on a farewell tour, maybe someday there'll be a reunion tour.
[52:26.960 --> 52:28.760] [SPEAKER_07]: Maybe, but it's not going to be in New York.
[52:29.080 --> 52:39.600] [SPEAKER_07]: I'll tell you something, it's kind of unusual, or unfortunate, I should say, being that this is New York that is being an intellectual seat and a business seat, et cetera.
[52:39.820 --> 52:49.340] [SPEAKER_07]: But the way things are shaping up over here, it seems like it's not going to be that amiable for these sorts of pursuits anymore.
[52:49.520 --> 52:57.240] [SPEAKER_07]: And I guess you have to look for a greener pasture, perhaps west coast, Midwest, perhaps as you mentioned, the fellow in Texas, maybe Texas is a better place.
[52:57.320 --> 53:01.520] [SPEAKER_08]: I never, I never liked the idea of going someplace else because things are not working out here.
[53:01.640 --> 53:03.580] [SPEAKER_08]: You know, it's kind of like running away from the problem because...
[53:03.580 --> 53:04.480] [SPEAKER_07]: I'm not saying no.
[53:04.640 --> 53:08.320] [SPEAKER_07]: What I'm saying is trying to at least right this ship as it's sinking.
[53:09.380 --> 53:12.820] [SPEAKER_07]: And one thing after the other is just being hurled at the public over here.
[53:13.480 --> 53:17.780] [SPEAKER_07]: And it's just, I'm afraid it's a matter of time until they make it very inhospitable to be living here.
[53:17.860 --> 53:25.340] [SPEAKER_07]: Now, if you want to stay here and catch bullets in your teeth, I think it's admirable and well, and I'm all for it, but it's just becoming a little bit too much.
[53:26.000 --> 53:26.400] [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.
[53:26.640 --> 53:27.260] [SPEAKER_07]: Thanks for your call.
[53:27.440 --> 53:27.560] [SPEAKER_07]: Sure.
[53:28.340 --> 53:43.260] [SPEAKER_11]: Well, as you're on your train leaving for California or for greener pastures, why don't you drop the mayor of the state of New York a letter and explain to him why you think does not make a good president?
[53:45.620 --> 53:46.420] [SPEAKER_08]: Good point.
[53:46.640 --> 53:47.120] [SPEAKER_08]: Good idea.
[53:47.760 --> 53:57.560] [SPEAKER_08]: And folks, you have to do things like that or else listening to the radio is one thing, being outraged is one thing, but if you don't transmit that to somebody else, it's really not going to mean a whole lot.
[53:57.760 --> 54:06.720] [SPEAKER_12]: Well, what I've been thinking about while we've been sitting here talking is the state of New York wants to set the value of shareware software.
[54:07.600 --> 54:10.200] [SPEAKER_12]: What I think is we need to give them a chance to do it.
[54:10.500 --> 54:14.320] [SPEAKER_12]: Now, we have about two gigabytes of files on the mission.
[54:14.760 --> 54:30.040] [SPEAKER_12]: I think we ought to dump them all out in hexadecimal source code, attach each file with a form letter requesting that they make a determination on the value of the software for taxation purposes, and ship it to them by several tractor trailers.
[54:31.240 --> 54:35.740] [SPEAKER_12]: And, you know, the bottom line is, gentlemen, you have 30 days!
[54:36.220 --> 54:40.040] [SPEAKER_12]: If you don't, give me an evaluation on every piece of software in 30 days.
[54:40.620 --> 54:42.500] [SPEAKER_12]: It's going to be assumed to have no value.
[54:45.220 --> 54:48.280] [SPEAKER_08]: Well, let's see if we can get some tractor trailers on short notice.
[54:48.960 --> 54:49.460] [SPEAKER_08]: Good evening.
[54:50.360 --> 54:50.840] [SPEAKER_08]: Hello?
[54:51.260 --> 54:51.920] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, go ahead.
[54:52.500 --> 54:56.860] [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, I'm calling the...
[54:56.860 --> 54:58.280] [SPEAKER_13]: Is this...
[54:58.280 --> 54:59.780] [SPEAKER_08]: You're on the air, yes.
[54:59.780 --> 55:01.380] [SPEAKER_13]: Oh, oh, oh, yeah.
[55:02.140 --> 55:05.960] [SPEAKER_13]: Okay, I have about four things, so I'll do it real fast.
[55:06.080 --> 55:06.520] [SPEAKER_08]: Real fast.
[55:07.940 --> 55:11.160] [SPEAKER_13]: One thing is, what's the dorsai...
[55:12.140 --> 55:13.860] [SPEAKER_13]: How do you spell dorsai?
[55:14.000 --> 55:15.860] [SPEAKER_12]: D-O-R-S-A-I.
[55:16.060 --> 55:18.380] [SPEAKER_13]: D-O-R-S-A-I.
[55:18.600 --> 55:18.940] [SPEAKER_12]: Right.
[55:19.240 --> 55:19.700] [SPEAKER_13]: Okay, thank you.
[55:20.300 --> 55:26.840] [SPEAKER_13]: Another thing is, your guest said that he doesn't believe it's a grand conspiracy.
[55:28.160 --> 55:42.120] [SPEAKER_13]: And I've been paying very close attention to a lot of situations that have been going on around the country, and I do believe there is a type of conspiracy.
[55:43.380 --> 55:55.580] [SPEAKER_13]: It seems like a lot of progressive people either get, what is it, embarrassed by something they did or are killed.
[55:56.940 --> 56:04.240] [SPEAKER_13]: The communications is something that's extremely important to a free society.
[56:04.580 --> 56:07.000] [SPEAKER_13]: And the libraries are being cut.
[56:08.060 --> 56:23.620] [SPEAKER_13]: The telephone company, somehow, and I'm not too sure about all the facts of them, but in the beginning, the telephone was just 10 cents all around because they were able to progress.
[56:24.060 --> 56:37.440] [SPEAKER_13]: And their experiments offset whatever raises in pay and stuff they had for their people.
[56:37.440 --> 56:39.320] [SPEAKER_13]: So it was a progressive company.
[56:39.940 --> 56:48.940] [SPEAKER_13]: And what has since been cut up, everybody is talking about sales because the other guy is raising their prices, you know?
[56:49.300 --> 56:58.660] [SPEAKER_13]: And the telephone on the outside is two and a half times what it was for, I don't know, maybe 20 years.
[56:58.980 --> 57:03.260] [SPEAKER_13]: And when I'm home, it comes out to be four times what it was.
[57:03.420 --> 57:06.300] [SPEAKER_08]: Sir, I'm going to have to ask you to wrap it up in about 15 seconds.
[57:06.480 --> 57:06.980] [SPEAKER_08]: Can you do that?
[57:07.320 --> 57:08.040] [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, okay.
[57:10.100 --> 57:10.900] [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, boy.
[57:11.440 --> 57:13.220] [SPEAKER_08]: Five of them are gone now, so...
[57:13.220 --> 57:13.560] [SPEAKER_08]: Okay.
[57:14.880 --> 57:15.600] [SPEAKER_13]: Thank you, Doug.
[57:15.940 --> 57:16.320] [SPEAKER_08]: Okay.
[57:17.100 --> 57:23.840] [SPEAKER_08]: Declined my offer, I guess, but I don't want to fit in one more phone call before we give out the phone numbers again and end the program.
[57:24.940 --> 57:25.660] [SPEAKER_08]: Good evening.
[57:26.260 --> 57:27.060] [SPEAKER_02]: Good evening.
[57:27.180 --> 57:28.260] [SPEAKER_02]: Let me just hit the radio.
[57:30.400 --> 57:30.880] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[57:31.160 --> 57:31.500] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[57:31.700 --> 57:33.120] [SPEAKER_02]: Very interesting topic.
[57:33.440 --> 57:36.580] [SPEAKER_02]: I'd like to tell you what happened to me a couple of days ago.
[57:36.740 --> 57:37.320] [SPEAKER_08]: Make it quick.
[57:37.580 --> 57:38.060] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[57:38.340 --> 57:42.560] [SPEAKER_02]: I tried to call a number of a friend of mine who was busy for a long time.
[57:42.560 --> 57:43.700] [SPEAKER_02]: Off a payphone.
[57:43.860 --> 57:46.620] [SPEAKER_02]: So I called the operator to ask to find out if there's trouble.
[57:47.020 --> 57:48.820] [SPEAKER_02]: I have to deposit $1.
[57:49.640 --> 57:52.440] [SPEAKER_08]: Sir, does this have anything to do with what we're talking about tonight?
[57:52.780 --> 57:53.000] [SPEAKER_08]: No.
[57:53.380 --> 57:53.600] [SPEAKER_08]: Okay.
[57:53.660 --> 57:59.320] [SPEAKER_08]: I'm afraid you're going to have to save that for another show, only because we do want to devote the show to this particular topic.
[57:59.340 --> 58:02.060] [SPEAKER_08]: But we are interested in what you have to say.
[58:02.180 --> 58:04.640] [SPEAKER_08]: Just call back on another show when the topic is a bit more open.
[58:04.800 --> 58:04.940] [SPEAKER_08]: Okay.
[58:04.980 --> 58:06.080] [SPEAKER_08]: Let's take one more phone call.
[58:06.320 --> 58:06.920] [SPEAKER_09]: Good evening.
[58:07.820 --> 58:08.600] [SPEAKER_09]: Uh, yes.
[58:08.880 --> 58:17.780] [SPEAKER_09]: Um, I actually think that, uh, people should be very concerned that this thing is starting up in New York because this is how they check things out to play it around the country.
[58:18.400 --> 58:19.060] [SPEAKER_08]: Good point.
[58:19.260 --> 58:19.840] [SPEAKER_08]: Very good point.
[58:20.040 --> 58:20.400] [SPEAKER_08]: The other...
[58:20.400 --> 58:21.200] [SPEAKER_08]: And the other thing is...
[58:21.200 --> 58:21.980] [SPEAKER_08]: It's a test case in many ways.
[58:22.600 --> 58:31.780] [SPEAKER_09]: The, uh, one other point I'll make very quickly is that I believe that it is going to be one of these laws that's selectively enforced depending on if they need to get a hold of somebody to screw them around.
[58:31.780 --> 58:33.720] [SPEAKER_09]: Those are the guys they'll go after.
[58:33.940 --> 58:35.680] [SPEAKER_09]: Otherwise, they're going to ignore everybody else.
[58:36.460 --> 58:39.440] [SPEAKER_12]: Well, that's why I spelled my name for the arrest warrant.
[58:40.220 --> 58:40.620] [SPEAKER_09]: All right.
[58:40.700 --> 58:41.460] [SPEAKER_09]: Well, I wish you luck.
[58:41.560 --> 58:41.840] [SPEAKER_09]: And I've...
[58:41.840 --> 58:43.300] [SPEAKER_09]: Please repeat all this information.
[58:43.300 --> 58:45.320] [SPEAKER_09]: I've got my tape running now so I can get it all down.
[58:45.540 --> 58:45.700] [SPEAKER_08]: Okay.
[58:46.040 --> 58:46.540] [SPEAKER_08]: All righty.
[58:46.680 --> 58:47.360] [SPEAKER_08]: Thanks for calling.
[58:47.500 --> 58:47.720] [SPEAKER_08]: All right.
[58:48.100 --> 58:48.580] [SPEAKER_08]: All right.
[58:48.640 --> 58:50.400] [SPEAKER_08]: Let's, uh, let's get that information out.
[58:50.520 --> 58:52.180] [SPEAKER_08]: Phone numbers, addresses, that kind of thing.
[58:52.360 --> 58:52.660] [SPEAKER_12]: Okay.
[58:52.880 --> 58:59.340] [SPEAKER_12]: The Doorside Diplomatic Mission, uh, data phone line is 431-1944.
[58:59.760 --> 59:01.020] [SPEAKER_12]: That's area code 212.
[59:02.260 --> 59:15.440] [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, the Doorside Diplomatic Mission's address is 428 Broom Street, Loft 5R, New York, New York, 10013.
[59:16.180 --> 59:20.980] [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, just address it to Jack Brooks, Charles Rawls, or sys-op.
[59:21.500 --> 59:24.240] [SPEAKER_12]: And we'll get back to you as soon as possible.
[59:24.800 --> 59:26.020] [SPEAKER_12]: All the info...
[59:26.020 --> 59:28.380] [SPEAKER_12]: All the relevant information is posted on the...
[59:28.380 --> 59:29.800] [SPEAKER_12]: on the bulletin board.
[59:30.980 --> 59:33.800] [SPEAKER_12]: Um, which is free, by the way.
[59:34.100 --> 59:34.800] [SPEAKER_12]: It is free.
[59:35.700 --> 59:36.480] [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, the bottom...
[59:36.480 --> 59:37.080] [SPEAKER_08]: Did you give the number for that?
[59:37.480 --> 59:38.240] [SPEAKER_12]: Yes, we did.
[59:38.520 --> 59:44.040] [SPEAKER_12]: The, the, the data phone line, again, is 431-1944, area code 212.
[59:45.120 --> 59:50.060] [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, the only address you really need is not our address.
[59:50.320 --> 01:00:01.280] [SPEAKER_12]: It's the address of Mario Cuomo, uh, your local representative, your state legislator, and the American Civil Liberties Union.
[01:00:01.280 --> 01:00:03.340] [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, let's get them involved in this.
[01:00:03.540 --> 01:00:07.540] [SPEAKER_12]: They are, these people are going after your first, second, and fifth amendments.
[01:00:07.900 --> 01:00:14.980] [SPEAKER_12]: Through freedom of speech, the freedom of the press, and your freedom to assemble in a manner of your choice.
[01:00:15.960 --> 01:00:16.340] [SPEAKER_08]: Okay.
[01:00:17.060 --> 01:00:20.860] [SPEAKER_08]: Well, Charles Rawls and Jack Brooks, uh, uh, the Doorside Diplomatic Mission.
[01:00:21.040 --> 01:00:23.320] [SPEAKER_08]: I want to thank you very much for, uh, coming down here tonight.
[01:00:23.620 --> 01:00:30.860] [SPEAKER_08]: But more importantly, I want to thank you for, uh, taking a stand on what could be a really important issue for us and, uh, many future generations.
[01:00:31.040 --> 01:00:31.660] [SPEAKER_08]: Good luck to you.
[01:00:32.060 --> 01:00:48.580] [SPEAKER_08]: And anybody that needs to, uh, get a hold of, uh, people at 2600, if you want to pass along information to us, you can call us at 516-751-2600, or write to me, Emmanuel Goldstein, care of WBAI, 505 8th Avenue, New York, New York.
[01:00:48.960 --> 01:00:55.080] [SPEAKER_08]: And, uh, we won't be back next week because of the CIA Robert Gates hearings.
[01:00:55.140 --> 01:01:00.780] [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, and we won't be back the week after that because of Marathon, but it's my understanding that we'll be back in three weeks.
[01:01:00.840 --> 01:01:02.920] [SPEAKER_08]: So, uh, we'll see you then on Off the Hook.
[01:01:12.530 --> 01:01:27.030] [SPEAKER_05]: The telephone keeps ringing So I ripped it off the wall I cut myself while shaving Now I can't make a cough It couldn't get much worse But it
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