Off The Hook - 1991-09-18

[00:00.920 --> 00:09.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: The programming that you've been hearing here tonight and the programming that will continue to come your way here on WBAI in New York.
[00:09.500 --> 00:11.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: Listener-supported radio.
[00:11.540 --> 00:14.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, we've got a lot to go over tonight.
[00:14.460 --> 00:27.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: Originally, we weren't going to be on this week, but because the hearings did not take place because of Yom Kippur, we have some programming for you tonight.
[00:27.700 --> 00:36.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: And also because of what happened yesterday throughout the New York metropolitan region, we're going to be talking about that in quite some detail.
[00:36.180 --> 00:40.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: In fact, we'll be getting some response from people out there to see how it affected them.
[00:40.360 --> 00:45.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: Of course, I'm referring to the telephone outage, the latest telephone outage.
[00:45.800 --> 00:53.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: And it's something that seems to be occurring with quite an increase in occurrence, let's just put it that way.
[00:54.320 --> 00:59.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: And is this something that we'll be seeing a lot of in the future?
[00:59.560 --> 01:03.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: And if so, just how can we plan our lives around that?
[01:03.520 --> 01:10.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: Let's take a look at how one particular newspaper covered the story.
[01:11.320 --> 01:13.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: A hang-up on air traffic.
[01:13.180 --> 01:22.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: Of course, the story really became a story when the airplanes stopped taking off and stopped landing in New York.
[01:22.140 --> 01:30.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: Three major airports closed down, LaGuardia, Kennedy, and Newark, because of a blown fuse, a power failure of some sort.
[01:30.600 --> 01:35.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: They still don't know what exactly went wrong in a building in downtown Manhattan.
[01:35.680 --> 01:42.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: How could one simple failure cause so much of an inconvenience to so many?
[01:43.280 --> 01:45.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: What kind of planning was there?
[01:45.320 --> 01:47.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: What kind of incompetence was there?
[01:48.080 --> 01:53.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: And how much faith are we putting control of our lives into?
[01:54.140 --> 01:56.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: What are we doing here?
[01:56.520 --> 01:59.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: What are we giving away?
[01:59.540 --> 02:03.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: What kind of freedoms are we giving away by saying, Okay, the computer will take care of everything.
[02:04.440 --> 02:13.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: Let's take a look at the story, and then we'll hear exactly what happened from a first-hand account.
[02:13.460 --> 02:15.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: And we'll also be speaking to somebody from the mayor's office.
[02:15.940 --> 02:21.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: In the meantime, though, keep those calls coming in, because information like this does not come cheap.
[02:21.840 --> 02:27.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: We need to be able to pay our bills to be able to keep you supplied with information like this.
[02:27.780 --> 02:33.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I'm sure that everybody will benefit from the information we're going to bring you in the next hour and throughout the night.
[02:34.420 --> 02:38.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: So please give a call to 212-279-3400.
[02:38.120 --> 02:46.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: I should point out at this juncture that for a pledge of $65, you can get a subscription to 2600 Magazine.
[02:46.760 --> 02:48.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's the Hacker Quarterly.
[02:48.220 --> 02:55.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: And by reading 2600, you can learn how to get around the phone company.
[02:55.200 --> 03:01.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: How to get around all these big inconveniences that seem to be touching us in many different ways.
[03:02.320 --> 03:06.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: You can become a part of an elite group, which really should not be an elite group.
[03:06.840 --> 03:09.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: It should be something that everybody knows.
[03:09.460 --> 03:18.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: Everybody should know how to bypass AT&T when their computers go down, or when they just don't feel like completing your call, or anything like that.
[03:19.120 --> 03:24.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: You should know when you are being ripped off, and when you're getting a good deal.
[03:24.920 --> 03:28.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: And by reading 2600, you'll get a taste of that anyway.
[03:28.940 --> 03:31.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: You'll certainly know more than the average person.
[03:32.120 --> 03:35.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: And that's kind of what we try to do on this program.
[03:35.100 --> 03:42.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, for a pledge of $65 to 279-3400, you will receive that.
[03:42.640 --> 03:47.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: You'll also receive the WBAI folio each and every month.
[03:47.680 --> 03:53.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: But most importantly, you'll be doing your part to keep this station going.
[03:53.840 --> 04:01.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: And by keeping this station going, you'll be privy to a lot of things that just are not heard anyplace else.
[04:01.220 --> 04:10.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: I was listening to Michio before, saying how there is not a WBAI in every city, or even in most cities.
[04:11.420 --> 04:18.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: Wherever I've been, there has not been a WBAI, except for some of the places that have Pacifica stations throughout this country.
[04:19.160 --> 04:22.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: Even in Europe, it's hard to find alternative views these days.
[04:23.460 --> 04:27.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, you've got to support something like this when it comes along.
[04:27.360 --> 04:35.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: And we've been here since the early 60s, and we'd like to stay here well beyond the 21st century.
[04:38.140 --> 04:41.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: 279-3400, we have no calls on the line right now.
[04:41.140 --> 04:50.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, we want to increase that just a little bit, get a few more people in on this station.
[04:51.240 --> 04:56.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: If you've never pledged before, this is a great time to pledge, because we're looking for new contributors.
[04:57.260 --> 05:02.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: If you've benefited from knowledge that you've received on this radio station, please give us a call.
[05:02.560 --> 05:04.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212-279-3400.
[05:04.400 --> 05:08.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: We do take Visa and MasterCard to make things a bit easier for you.
[05:09.600 --> 05:20.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: But, most importantly, besides taking your money, we give you something back, something immediate, something educational, beneficial to one and all.
[05:20.460 --> 05:23.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: And you don't have to agree with everything that you hear on WBAI.
[05:23.520 --> 05:27.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: God knows I don't, and I'm sure most people who do shows here don't agree with everything they hear.
[05:27.700 --> 05:29.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: And that's part of being human.
[05:29.640 --> 05:33.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's part of what democracy, I guess, is supposed to be all about.
[05:33.160 --> 05:35.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: But, you don't hear that in very many places.
[05:36.960 --> 05:39.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, we need to keep that going here on WBAI.
[05:40.020 --> 05:41.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: We do not have sponsors.
[05:41.360 --> 05:47.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: We cannot have sponsors, because the moment we get sponsors, we lose that special objectivity.
[05:47.380 --> 05:50.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I'm going to give you a good example of that with this AT&T story.
[05:50.820 --> 05:52.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, we've got one call on the line.
[05:52.940 --> 06:02.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: Let's make that three calls, and we can continue with the AT&T outage, the other side of the AT&T outage, and how it affected you.
[06:02.000 --> 06:08.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: We will be taking some phone calls a little bit later on to see how you all survived the crisis.
[06:10.140 --> 06:24.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: 279-3400, a pledge of $65, gets you $2,600 magazine for an entire year, as well as the WBAI folio, and the knowledge that you're helping out New York's alternative radio station.
[06:25.780 --> 06:31.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: Miss you, perhaps you could tell us what's coming up in the next couple of hours, for people that want to stay tuned to their radio.
[06:31.680 --> 06:32.540]  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, fine.
[06:32.660 --> 06:38.360]  [SPEAKER_00]: Once again, this is Michio Kaku, and 8 o'clock, I helped to...
[06:38.360 --> 06:44.980]  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, actually, from 7 o'clock, we kicked off this three-hour special that's going to go on until around 11 o'clock in the evening.
[06:45.560 --> 06:47.300]  [SPEAKER_00]: At 8 o'clock, we had exploration.
[06:47.580 --> 06:55.520]  [SPEAKER_00]: At 9 o'clock now, Emmanuel Goldstein will be talking about computer technology and the whole question of the AT&T breakdown that just took place.
[06:55.520 --> 07:02.380]  [SPEAKER_00]: And then at 10 o'clock, we'll be talking about PeaceNet, how you can get wired to the electronic revolution through BAI.
[07:02.380 --> 07:12.380]  [SPEAKER_00]: If you were to pledge, for example, $65 by calling 212-279-3400 will immediately get you set up with PeaceNet.
[07:12.600 --> 07:20.580]  [SPEAKER_00]: So once again, you're listening to a three-hour special concerning the question of science, technology, war, peace, and the environment.
[07:20.580 --> 07:30.860]  [SPEAKER_00]: And also, I'd like to say on the question of these gigantic computer glitches, how dependent we are on technology in general that can wreak enormous havoc.
[07:31.060 --> 07:32.340]  [SPEAKER_00]: Take a look at Three Mile Island.
[07:32.460 --> 07:35.020]  [SPEAKER_00]: Take a look at Chernobyl and the Soviet Union.
[07:35.440 --> 07:41.040]  [SPEAKER_00]: Both incidents are caused by extremely small human error or manufacturing defects.
[07:41.300 --> 07:47.160]  [SPEAKER_00]: And we are so dependent upon this technology that could, like a Frankenstein monster, turn against us very quickly.
[07:47.160 --> 07:49.100]  [SPEAKER_00]: And that's why we have to be empowered.
[07:49.100 --> 07:51.300]  [SPEAKER_00]: And that's what this radio station is all about.
[07:51.580 --> 07:52.060]  [SPEAKER_00]: Empowerment.
[07:52.300 --> 07:53.700]  [SPEAKER_00]: Knowledge is empowerment.
[07:54.040 --> 08:09.760]  [SPEAKER_00]: And if you listen to Emmanuel Goldstein talk about the computer glitch, you realize that we too can be empowered, not just by passively sitting back, but by actively participating in this radio station by calling 212-279-3400.
[08:09.920 --> 08:11.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: We just want two more calls on this.
[08:11.980 --> 08:16.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: We don't want as many calls as we can get, but for now, we'd be happy to see the phone light up.
[08:17.160 --> 08:19.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: Two more times, 212-279-3400.
[08:20.020 --> 08:31.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I know at this time every week, when we ask for phone calls, people that need advice for technological issues, people that want to know if the phone company is cheating them and things like that, the phones always light up instantly.
[08:31.400 --> 08:34.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: So please, think of us now that we're asking for your help.
[08:35.040 --> 08:36.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: Pledge what you can afford.
[08:36.700 --> 08:42.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: Pledge whatever you can to help us get by, because we cannot do it without your help.
[08:42.800 --> 08:44.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: And that is a fact.
[08:44.220 --> 08:52.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I don't want to say it's a sad fact, because if we did not get the help of our listeners, we'd be getting the help of some huge corporation like AT&T.
[08:52.680 --> 08:54.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: And look where that gets you.
[08:55.280 --> 08:57.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212-279-3400.
[08:57.640 --> 09:04.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: Show your support for WBAI for alternative knowledge that can really benefit you in situations like this.
[09:04.940 --> 09:10.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: Speaking of incompetence, AT&T tonight is blaming the whole thing on three employees.
[09:10.760 --> 09:15.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: They say that three employees ignored alarms for six hours.
[09:15.840 --> 09:20.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: So I don't quite know how they're running things down there, but that is the story tonight.
[09:20.520 --> 09:27.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: Three employees of AT&T are being blamed for the outage because they ignored alarms that were going off for six hours.
[09:27.580 --> 09:33.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: I don't know how you can ignore an alarm for six hours unless perhaps it doesn't make any noise or show any lights or anything like that.
[09:33.380 --> 09:33.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: I don't know.
[09:34.300 --> 09:36.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: We're going to try to find out more about that.
[09:36.920 --> 09:38.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212-279-3400.
[09:38.960 --> 09:40.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: Let's see those phones light up.
[09:40.060 --> 09:44.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: Here's a bit of information that appeared in today's Newsday.
[09:44.200 --> 09:49.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: And this, I think you'll find kind of humorous as well as a lot of other things.
[09:49.840 --> 09:54.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: AT&T power failure cuts air traffic control signals is the sub-headline.
[09:54.740 --> 10:07.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: A power supply problem at an AT&T switching center in lower Manhattan disrupted air traffic control communications yesterday, bringing the area's three major airports and Long Island MacArthur Airport to a virtual standstill.
[10:07.460 --> 10:12.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: The breakdown also crippled AT&T long-distance service in the city and on Long Island.
[10:13.120 --> 10:16.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: The chaos began at about 4.50 p.m.
[10:16.360 --> 10:23.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: when a major switch at AT&T's Thompson Street Center was affected by still an undetermined power supply problem.
[10:23.300 --> 10:25.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: They still don't really know what caused it in the first place.
[10:25.520 --> 10:34.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: Laura Abbott, an AT&T spokeswoman, said the switch also carries air control voice and data communications for the Federal Aviation Administration.
[10:35.140 --> 10:46.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: FAA spokeswoman Diane Spitaliri said the switch failure cut off communications between New York's air traffic control centers and the main centers in Boston and Washington.
[10:46.660 --> 10:48.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: And it wasn't until 9 p.m.
[10:48.220 --> 10:51.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: when flights began arriving again on a very limited basis.
[10:52.760 --> 11:02.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: According to a spokesperson for Long Island MacArthur Airport, they had six to eight airplanes grounded and 400 to 600 people milling around in the terminal.
[11:02.160 --> 11:03.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's not one of the major airports.
[11:03.520 --> 11:06.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's just a little tiny one, the way a bit.
[11:07.180 --> 11:16.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: And what's particularly interesting there is that at MacArthur Airport, the departure and arrival screens for U.S.
[11:16.600 --> 11:19.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: air showed most of the flights were on time.
[11:19.220 --> 11:21.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's right, most of the flights were on time.
[11:21.560 --> 11:23.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: Do you think that really means that they were on time?
[11:23.320 --> 11:24.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: No, it doesn't mean that.
[11:25.440 --> 11:28.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: Their computers were down and it wasn't possible to correct the screens.
[11:29.220 --> 11:34.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: So here you had an AT&T failure and you had a computer failure on top of that, which made it seem like everything was okay.
[11:35.380 --> 11:41.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: By 10.30 p.m., about 70 people waiting for flights were yawning, walking wearily around, or sitting and waiting.
[11:42.080 --> 11:43.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: And cussing and swearing, no doubt.
[11:44.940 --> 11:47.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: As of 11 p.m., there was still no service out of MacArthur.
[11:47.820 --> 11:51.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: Airlines were telling passengers that service would resume in the morning.
[11:51.920 --> 11:57.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: And people were put up in hotels and shuttled around to various cities they didn't want to be in.
[11:57.760 --> 12:00.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: And everybody had a miserable time.
[12:00.060 --> 12:05.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: And it was just because of a failure in a switch someplace downtown in Manhattan.
[12:06.420 --> 12:16.880]  [SPEAKER_00]: The fact that AT&T is blaming three workers now sounds a lot like the Exxon-Valdez crisis, where Exxon blames it all on one sea captain.
[12:16.880 --> 12:22.900]  [SPEAKER_00]: And the question is, well, why did Exxon load all this responsibility on the sea captain without checks and balances?
[12:23.160 --> 12:30.720]  [SPEAKER_00]: And the same thing, why did AT&T give these workers the capability of perhaps even intentionally sabotaging a system like that?
[12:30.900 --> 12:38.660]  [SPEAKER_00]: Systems have to be built with backups and preventive systems, whereby not just unintentionally, but an intentional saboteur can wreak havoc.
[12:38.820 --> 12:47.740]  [SPEAKER_00]: And here we have a situation where AT&T is blaming essentially its own managerial process by which it inspects and by which it backs up these systems.
[12:47.980 --> 12:50.160]  [SPEAKER_00]: And again, they do it because it's profit.
[12:50.460 --> 12:54.920]  [SPEAKER_00]: They've got to squeeze as much money as they can out of these cables and these programmings and whatever.
[12:55.200 --> 12:57.080]  [SPEAKER_00]: And they get the bottom dollar.
[12:57.280 --> 12:59.060]  [SPEAKER_00]: You essentially get bottom dollar electronics.
[12:59.300 --> 13:00.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's a very good point.
[13:00.180 --> 13:01.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: And that's exactly what they do.
[13:01.540 --> 13:09.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: In fact, the spokesperson for the FCC Common Carrier Bureau recently suggested to people that were concerned about the fact that there was no backup.
[13:09.400 --> 13:14.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: And this was in light of all the cable cuts and mysterious outages that were happening over the summer.
[13:15.580 --> 13:18.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: He said, if you want backups, go out and buy a backup system of your own.
[13:18.880 --> 13:22.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: If you really need that kind of dependability, you should get it yourself.
[13:22.880 --> 13:27.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: In other words, the phone company can no longer take responsibility for providing reliable service.
[13:27.540 --> 13:29.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: And this is somebody from the FCC saying this.
[13:29.660 --> 13:32.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: So you can imagine what they say over at AT&T.
[13:32.620 --> 13:51.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: I would hope that this kind of service, quote unquote, is rewarded heavily by various customers of AT&T as far as who they choose in the future and how they hook up their businesses and homes and things like that.
[13:53.300 --> 14:01.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, a very interesting point, something that I think we should not take lightly here at WBAI, is something that I think our listeners should pay strict attention to.
[14:02.340 --> 14:10.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: I was wandering around the television dial last night looking for stories about this because this is a very interesting story, something that strikes right at my heart.
[14:11.240 --> 14:12.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: And every station had something.
[14:12.680 --> 14:14.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: I went to NBC News.
[14:14.300 --> 14:14.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: They had a story.
[14:15.040 --> 14:17.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: CBS, ABC, Fox, Channel 11.
[14:18.200 --> 14:19.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: Everybody was doing something.
[14:19.720 --> 14:24.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: I turned to the McNeil-Lair Report, and they had a very full, in-depth news hour, as usual.
[14:25.160 --> 14:31.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: But for some reason, for some reason, they completely ignored the story of AT&T, causing all this havoc.
[14:31.960 --> 14:36.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I was wondering, how could they possibly miss a story this big?
[14:36.360 --> 14:38.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's not like McNeil-Lair to miss a story like this.
[14:39.440 --> 14:43.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I was thinking about this as the closing credits were rolling on the screen.
[14:43.900 --> 14:48.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: And then, at the very end, it said, this program was made possible by AT&T.
[14:50.080 --> 14:52.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, that sort of struck me the wrong way.
[14:52.440 --> 14:59.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: And it tells you what can happen when a corporation is running a program, which is, in effect, what is happening there.
[14:59.760 --> 15:08.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, of course, we can't say for sure that's why that story didn't air, but it could have been a very good reason why they didn't emphasize it.
[15:08.700 --> 15:21.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: You see, so when you have corporations and sponsors paying you money to put on your programs and to keep your station on the air, you may very well impose self-censorship on yourself.
[15:21.800 --> 15:23.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: And that's the worst kind of censorship of all.
[15:23.920 --> 15:26.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: We never want to have to resort to that here at BAI.
[15:26.600 --> 15:31.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: We want to be able to bring you stories, and we don't care who we get upset by bringing you those stories.
[15:31.400 --> 15:35.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: We want to bring it to you in our particular way, and we want to get your feedback on it.
[15:35.400 --> 15:37.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's why we need you to pick up your phone now.
[15:37.680 --> 15:38.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, don't wait.
[15:38.900 --> 15:40.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212-279-3400.
[15:41.080 --> 15:44.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: Show your support for non-commercial radio, for independent thought.
[15:44.560 --> 15:54.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: And we promise you we will keep these stories coming your way, and we will not be biased or influenced by anybody that's allegedly supporting us.
[15:54.380 --> 15:56.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212-279-3400.
[15:56.260 --> 15:57.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: Pledge what you can afford.
[15:57.420 --> 16:06.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: For $65, you'll get $2,600 for a year, and you'll learn all about the phone companies and computers and hackers and all kinds of neat things like that.
[16:06.740 --> 16:06.960]  [SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[16:07.080 --> 16:11.080]  [SPEAKER_00]: And speaking of self-interest, take a look at NBC television and the Gulf War.
[16:11.340 --> 16:18.900]  [SPEAKER_00]: NBC television, of course, is owned by General Electric, which is one of the largest manufacturers of smart bombs in the world.
[16:19.000 --> 16:28.120]  [SPEAKER_00]: And it's no accident that the national media was touting the efficiency of these smart bombs that we now know was basically a fake.
[16:28.340 --> 16:29.040]  [SPEAKER_00]: A fake.
[16:29.180 --> 16:32.020]  [SPEAKER_00]: 93% of the bombs dropped during the war.
[16:32.020 --> 16:34.200]  [SPEAKER_00]: We now know were dumb bombs.
[16:34.400 --> 16:38.980]  [SPEAKER_00]: Only 7% of the bombs dropped during the war were the so-called smart bombs.
[16:39.320 --> 16:48.840]  [SPEAKER_00]: And essentially, the whole media campaign was a lie from the start to the beginning that the bulk of the damage done on civilians was not done by super-accurate video smart...
[16:48.840 --> 16:50.180]  [SPEAKER_00]: Nintendo smart bombs.
[16:50.360 --> 16:53.000]  [SPEAKER_00]: Or for that matter, take a look at public television.
[16:53.000 --> 16:54.160]  [SPEAKER_00]: I like public television.
[16:54.280 --> 16:55.960]  [SPEAKER_00]: A lot of the science programming is quite good.
[16:55.960 --> 16:58.840]  [SPEAKER_00]: But take a look at NOVA.
[16:59.120 --> 17:04.660]  [SPEAKER_00]: You would expect NOVA to have had a major program on Three Mile Island right after the accident.
[17:04.820 --> 17:06.720]  [SPEAKER_00]: It was just the kind of story that NOVA would do.
[17:06.860 --> 17:11.860]  [SPEAKER_00]: But how come it took NOVA something like almost a decade before finally getting into Three Mile Island?
[17:12.060 --> 17:16.320]  [SPEAKER_00]: And it's no accident that people call public television petrochemical broadcasting.
[17:16.940 --> 17:22.360]  [SPEAKER_00]: Everything is brought to you by Exxon and Mobile and the petrochemical industry on public television.
[17:22.780 --> 17:28.360]  [SPEAKER_00]: Public television is a natural outlet by which you might get a little bit of criticism of the petrochemical industry.
[17:28.440 --> 17:31.260]  [SPEAKER_00]: But oh no, not with the kind of funding that you got.
[17:31.800 --> 17:46.620]  [SPEAKER_00]: Finally, after about eight years or so, NOVA did do a special on Three Mile Island and I asked the producer, I was on that program myself, I asked the producer, was there pressure on these producers not to do a story on nuclear power because, of course,
[17:46.720 --> 17:48.080]  [SPEAKER_00]: who owns nuclear power?
[17:48.280 --> 17:53.040]  [SPEAKER_00]: A lot of the uranium mines in this country are owned by the petrochemical industry.
[17:53.040 --> 17:55.340]  [SPEAKER_00]: Exxon Nuclear, Gulf Atomic.
[17:55.540 --> 17:57.600]  [SPEAKER_00]: And he said, yes, indeed it is true.
[17:57.800 --> 18:08.160]  [SPEAKER_00]: The petrochemical industry does, in fact, have this invisible hand over the programming at NOVA to make sure that NOVA does not stick its nose where it doesn't belong, i.e.
[18:08.400 --> 18:10.740]  [SPEAKER_00]: muckraking what happens with the petrochemical industry.
[18:10.940 --> 18:12.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212-279-3400.
[18:12.960 --> 18:14.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: We've got two calls on the line.
[18:14.680 --> 18:19.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: Let's make that four calls and we'll be in good shape for the programming ahead of us.
[18:20.740 --> 18:31.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: Whether it's AT&T, Mobile, Exxon, or any of those huge corporations that are running the show, so to say, we're not going to have that happen here.
[18:31.240 --> 18:33.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: We're not going to allow that to happen here.
[18:33.900 --> 18:40.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, we could solve a lot of our problems probably by doing this, but I think we'd be opening ourselves up to a lot more problems.
[18:40.280 --> 18:47.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: We'd be taking a lot of programs off the air because they would be offending too many people in powerful positions.
[18:47.920 --> 18:49.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: And that's not what we're all about here.
[18:50.400 --> 19:01.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: We want to be able to reach out and offend people in high places because they deserve to be offended because there are stories that need to be told and stories that are not being told anyplace else.
[19:02.080 --> 19:04.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212-279-3400.
[19:04.240 --> 19:13.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: Show your support for this kind of radio, the kind of radio that does not exist in many parts of the country and certainly does not exist in other parts of this dial in this city.
[19:13.820 --> 19:20.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, please make that phone ring and make it a success so we can continue to bring this to you 52 weeks a year.
[19:20.700 --> 19:23.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212-279-3400.
[19:23.560 --> 19:25.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: Let's keep those phones ringing.
[19:25.440 --> 19:45.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: We want to thank Gary from Brooklyn, Robert from New York, Eddie from Brooklyn, Ari, I believe is how you pronounce it, from Brooklyn, Christopher from Newark, New Jersey, Mark from Garfield, New Jersey, and Rita from Manhattan for their generous support in keeping WBAI going.
[19:45.900 --> 19:47.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: Please join these people.
[19:47.740 --> 19:48.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: Help us out.
[19:48.860 --> 19:51.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: Become part of the WBAI family.
[19:51.400 --> 20:01.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: No matter what you pledge, however big, however small, you will get the WBAI folio delivered to your door or post office box or wherever you want to have us deliver it.
[20:01.260 --> 20:02.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: You'll get that for a year.
[20:03.160 --> 20:09.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: And if you choose to pledge $65, you'll get the 2600 magazine for a year.
[20:09.640 --> 20:11.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: There's a lot of other things that you can get too.
[20:11.860 --> 20:13.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: You can ask our friendly tally people.
[20:14.020 --> 20:18.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: They'll be more than happy to help you out as far as that kind of thing goes.
[20:18.440 --> 20:20.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212-279-3400.
[20:20.620 --> 20:28.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: We want to move now to an actual presentation of what happened yesterday when the phones went out.
[20:29.340 --> 20:38.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: What I did was I put together a little piece where we were trying, trying and trying and trying to make a telephone call.
[20:38.960 --> 20:43.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: And this is the kind of thing that you would have heard had you been trying to do this.
[20:44.160 --> 20:50.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: And we're also going to show you how it's possible to not let this affect you if you so choose.
[20:51.480 --> 20:56.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: You'll hear us routing calls through other phone companies, MCI, Sprint, ITT.
[20:56.680 --> 21:05.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: But you also hear how hard it is to get an operator, how this affected New York telephone, and you'll also hear a fair bit of disinformation that was being spread around, too.
[21:06.460 --> 21:16.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: So this piece runs for about 10 minutes, and you'll hear just about everything that was going on yesterday in kind of a first-hand view.
[21:16.960 --> 21:25.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: Each piece is date-time stamped because it was recorded on an answering machine, so it provides kind of an historical reference there.
[21:26.620 --> 21:31.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: While this is playing, we really would like to see those phones ring 212-279-3400.
[21:31.760 --> 21:36.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: And when we come back, we'll be taking a couple of phone calls at 212-279-3407.
[21:36.860 --> 21:44.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: How did the AT&T outage affect you, and how can we not let it affect other people in the future?
[21:46.490 --> 21:50.210]  [SPEAKER_03]: We will attempt to call a number using AT&T.
[21:50.490 --> 21:52.570]  [SPEAKER_03]: This is a number in California from New York.
[21:55.110 --> 21:58.510]  [SPEAKER_03]: Dialing 10288 for the AT&T carrier access code.
[22:11.760 --> 22:12.760]  [SPEAKER_03]: What about now?
[22:12.800 --> 22:13.480]  [SPEAKER_03]: It should be ringing.
[22:18.050 --> 22:20.090]  [SPEAKER_03]: But it just appears to be sitting there.
[22:48.050 --> 22:51.430]  [SPEAKER_05]: Tuesday, 6.65 p.m.
[22:55.830 --> 22:57.910]  [SPEAKER_03]: Now we're going to try using a different company.
[22:59.330 --> 23:03.090]  [SPEAKER_03]: Using the carrier access code for MCI.
[23:04.110 --> 23:05.230]  [SPEAKER_03]: Same phone number.
[23:19.000 --> 23:21.680]  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, we also had some difficulty there.
[23:22.300 --> 23:23.260]  [SPEAKER_03]: Circuit's tied up.
[23:25.880 --> 23:29.320]  [SPEAKER_05]: Tuesday, 6.55 p.m.
[23:33.560 --> 23:35.840]  [SPEAKER_03]: Now we're going to try sprint.
[23:37.520 --> 23:39.780]  [SPEAKER_03]: That's the carrier access code for sprint.
[23:39.980 --> 23:41.500]  [SPEAKER_03]: And now we're going to call the same number.
[24:00.810 --> 24:01.690]  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, that got through.
[24:03.130 --> 24:06.490]  [SPEAKER_05]: Tuesday, 6.56 p.m.
[24:10.740 --> 24:12.460]  [SPEAKER_03]: Now we're going to try ITT.
[24:14.620 --> 24:16.760]  [SPEAKER_03]: That's the carrier access code for ITT.
[24:16.880 --> 24:18.500]  [SPEAKER_03]: Actually, it's called Metro Media now.
[24:22.620 --> 24:24.210]  [SPEAKER_03]: And now we're trying the same number.
[24:36.620 --> 24:37.760]  [SPEAKER_03]: That got right through.
[24:38.860 --> 24:42.220]  [SPEAKER_03]: Tuesday, 6.57 p.m.
[24:46.390 --> 24:47.450]  [SPEAKER_03]: Let's give AT&T one more try.
[24:47.450 --> 24:48.490]  [SPEAKER_03]: Let's give MCI one more try.
[24:49.730 --> 24:52.370]  [SPEAKER_03]: We're trying MCI again with their carrier access code.
[24:55.350 --> 24:57.470]  [SPEAKER_03]: And calling a number in California.
[25:10.230 --> 25:11.570]  [SPEAKER_03]: All right, that got through, too.
[25:12.670 --> 25:15.970]  [SPEAKER_03]: Tuesday, 6.57 p.m.
[25:19.950 --> 25:22.030]  [SPEAKER_03]: Let's give AT&T one more try.
[25:45.420 --> 25:47.280]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's a very quiet connection.
[26:11.780 --> 26:12.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: No good.
[26:15.340 --> 26:18.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: Tuesday, 6.58 p.m.
[26:21.980 --> 26:27.220]  [SPEAKER_03]: All right, now we're going to try dialing an AT&T operator direct by dialing 0-0.
[26:27.460 --> 26:33.400]  [SPEAKER_03]: Since this phone is preset to AT&T, dialing 0-0 will connect me to the AT&T operator and we'll see what happens.
[26:39.150 --> 26:43.050]  [SPEAKER_03]: All right, that's the local central office saying all circuits are busy.
[26:43.210 --> 26:43.790]  [SPEAKER_03]: Let's try again.
[26:46.170 --> 26:49.310]  [SPEAKER_03]: Tuesday, 7.09 p.m.
[26:53.660 --> 27:01.260]  [SPEAKER_03]: This time we'll try by putting the carrier access code putting the carrier access code first and having a 0 after that.
[27:01.680 --> 27:02.900]  [SPEAKER_03]: See if that works.
[27:09.110 --> 27:10.150]  [SPEAKER_03]: Same result.
[27:10.710 --> 27:13.390]  [SPEAKER_03]: Central office is overwhelmed.
[27:15.170 --> 27:18.010]  [SPEAKER_03]: Tuesday, 7.10 p.m.
[27:22.350 --> 27:24.590]  [SPEAKER_03]: What we're going to, uh...
[27:24.590 --> 27:28.270]  [SPEAKER_03]: We're going to try now is calling AT&T's 800 number.
[27:32.160 --> 27:34.500]  [SPEAKER_03]: If we can find out what's going on from them.
[27:47.240 --> 27:49.220]  [SPEAKER_03]: We don't appear to be getting a connection.
[27:53.050 --> 27:58.290]  [SPEAKER_03]: Usually by this time you're talking to a cheerful AT&T representative but, uh...
[27:58.290 --> 27:59.350]  [SPEAKER_03]: I hear only silence.
[28:13.920 --> 28:16.080]  [SPEAKER_03]: That, too, will not go through.
[28:18.940 --> 28:21.800]  [SPEAKER_03]: Tuesday, 7.11 p.m.
[28:26.740 --> 28:30.120]  [SPEAKER_03]: One last resort is to go through the local operator.
[28:30.220 --> 28:35.480]  [SPEAKER_03]: Now, the local operator can connect us to AT&T but no other phone company, only AT&T.
[28:35.960 --> 28:37.600]  [SPEAKER_03]: Let's see if we can get through.
[28:48.740 --> 28:49.620]  [SPEAKER_11]: We're sorry.
[28:49.960 --> 28:53.220]  [SPEAKER_11]: Due to heavy calling, the operator will be delayed in assisting you.
[28:53.500 --> 28:58.220]  [SPEAKER_11]: If your call is urgent, stay on the line and an operator will answer as soon as possible.
[29:00.000 --> 29:02.100]  [SPEAKER_03]: Even the local company is overwhelmed.
[29:22.280 --> 29:25.520]  [SPEAKER_03]: All of this because of one power failure you're in one building.
[29:44.230 --> 29:46.050]  [SPEAKER_09]: Are you going to tell someone if you have to help you?
[29:46.230 --> 29:46.570]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yes.
[29:46.690 --> 29:48.610]  [SPEAKER_03]: Hi, I was wondering if you could connect me to AT&T.
[29:48.850 --> 29:49.470]  [SPEAKER_09]: All right, let's go.
[29:51.390 --> 29:54.270]  [SPEAKER_11]: One moment for an operator who can assist you.
[29:54.750 --> 29:55.510]  [SPEAKER_11]: Thank you.
[30:00.070 --> 30:00.890]  [SPEAKER_18]: We're sorry.
[30:01.150 --> 30:02.590]  [SPEAKER_18]: All circuits are busy now.
[30:02.770 --> 30:04.710]  [SPEAKER_18]: Will you please try your call again later?
[30:08.420 --> 30:09.240]  [SPEAKER_18]: We're sorry.
[30:09.540 --> 30:10.960]  [SPEAKER_18]: All circuits are busy now.
[30:11.220 --> 30:13.060]  [SPEAKER_18]: Will you please try your call again later?
[30:14.420 --> 30:16.080]  [SPEAKER_18]: It doesn't look like we're going to get anywhere.
[30:16.960 --> 30:18.160]  [SPEAKER_03]: And it hung up on us.
[30:23.410 --> 30:26.470]  [SPEAKER_05]: Tuesday, 7.14 p.m.
[30:31.180 --> 30:39.640]  [SPEAKER_03]: Now, as a final try here, we're going to talk to another New York telephone operator to see if we can get an explanation from their point of view as to what's going on.
[30:39.820 --> 30:42.960]  [SPEAKER_03]: Of course, this could take some time since they're clogged as well.
[30:51.240 --> 30:52.040]  [SPEAKER_11]: We're sorry.
[30:52.400 --> 30:55.660]  [SPEAKER_11]: Due to heavy calling, the operator will be delayed in assisting you.
[30:56.140 --> 31:00.680]  [SPEAKER_11]: If your call is urgent, stay on the line and an operator will answer as soon as possible.
[31:01.440 --> 31:01.840]  [SPEAKER_11]: One.
[31:06.280 --> 31:08.380]  [SPEAKER_03]: Not sure what that other recording was going to say.
[31:38.000 --> 31:39.300]  [SPEAKER_03]: The answer for Mr. Lyme?
[31:39.540 --> 31:40.140]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, hi.
[31:40.340 --> 31:41.440]  [SPEAKER_03]: I was wondering if you could help me.
[31:41.660 --> 31:44.760]  [SPEAKER_03]: I just tried getting connected to AT&T and I got a recording.
[31:45.520 --> 31:45.920]  [SPEAKER_03]: All right.
[31:46.060 --> 31:51.680]  [SPEAKER_03]: So right now, AT&T and Sprint are experiencing technical difficulties.
[31:52.380 --> 31:54.460]  [SPEAKER_03]: They are aware of the problem and they are working on it.
[31:55.780 --> 31:56.420]  [SPEAKER_03]: Sprint 2.
[31:56.620 --> 31:56.940]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
[31:57.460 --> 31:57.760]  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[31:58.700 --> 32:02.560]  [SPEAKER_03]: Now, it's not possible to connect me to any other phone company but AT&T through New York California.
[32:02.760 --> 32:04.540]  [SPEAKER_03]: Can I connect you to MCI or Metro Media?
[32:05.000 --> 32:05.540]  [SPEAKER_03]: You can.
[32:05.980 --> 32:06.340]  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[32:06.480 --> 32:07.420]  [SPEAKER_03]: Can I have Metro Media then?
[32:08.220 --> 32:09.820]  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm not feeling so good tonight, I'll tell you that.
[32:11.540 --> 32:12.720]  [SPEAKER_03]: Can I have Metro Media then?
[32:13.100 --> 32:13.460]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[32:13.600 --> 32:14.740]  [SPEAKER_03]: You want me to connect you to Metro Media?
[32:14.900 --> 32:15.160]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[32:15.880 --> 32:16.200]  [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you.
[32:16.820 --> 32:17.320]  [SPEAKER_03]: Hold on.
[32:21.670 --> 32:22.610]  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm going to connect you now.
[32:22.730 --> 32:22.990]  [SPEAKER_03]: Hold on.
[32:23.150 --> 32:23.690]  [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you very much.
[32:25.370 --> 32:25.890]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh-huh.
[32:27.290 --> 32:28.870]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, that doesn't sound like a dial tone.
[32:30.750 --> 32:33.330]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I guess you're not there anymore but I want to thank you anyway.
[32:35.390 --> 32:37.770]  [SPEAKER_03]: I've never known an operator to connect me to another phone company.
[32:37.930 --> 32:39.230]  [SPEAKER_03]: We're going to see if I can do that again.
[32:40.990 --> 32:43.930]  [SPEAKER_03]: Tuesday, 7.60 p.m.
[32:48.400 --> 32:49.860]  [SPEAKER_03]: Let's give that another try.
[32:51.280 --> 32:54.680]  [SPEAKER_03]: I've never known an operator to connect me to any other phone company but AT&T.
[32:54.680 --> 32:59.240]  [SPEAKER_03]: and I've also this is the first I've heard that sprint is also effective.
[32:59.480 --> 33:01.460]  [SPEAKER_03]: We'll see if that is actually true.
[33:05.020 --> 33:05.800]  [SPEAKER_11]: We're sorry.
[33:06.140 --> 33:09.440]  [SPEAKER_11]: Due to heavy calling the operator will be delayed in assisting you.
[33:09.660 --> 33:14.400]  [SPEAKER_11]: If your call is urgent stay on the line and an operator will answer as soon as possible.
[33:19.590 --> 33:22.690]  [SPEAKER_03]: Actually, it's not heavy calling so much as it's heavy failure.
[33:47.600 --> 33:48.560]  [SPEAKER_03]: You're telephone, Greg?
[33:49.020 --> 33:49.400]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
[33:49.500 --> 33:50.840]  [SPEAKER_03]: Hi, I was hoping you could help me.
[33:50.960 --> 33:55.800]  [SPEAKER_03]: I just talked to an operator who said that they were able to connect me to phone companies other than AT&T.
[33:55.920 --> 33:56.340]  [SPEAKER_03]: Is that true?
[33:56.660 --> 33:56.820]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
[33:57.500 --> 33:58.700]  [SPEAKER_03]: To Metro Media.
[33:59.120 --> 34:01.740]  [SPEAKER_03]: Metro Media and can you connect to MCI?
[34:02.160 --> 34:05.600]  [SPEAKER_17]: From what I understand, they're down also.
[34:05.940 --> 34:06.920]  [SPEAKER_17]: Well, their circuits are out of order.
[34:07.000 --> 34:08.060]  [SPEAKER_17]: I can try them for you.
[34:08.460 --> 34:12.800]  [SPEAKER_03]: Are you able to tell me how to make other phone calls without using AT&T?
[34:14.280 --> 34:19.800]  [SPEAKER_17]: Well, if you want to use Metro Media, you can try MCI directly.
[34:20.440 --> 34:26.640]  [SPEAKER_17]: What you do is you dial 10222 plus the area code and number.
[34:27.240 --> 34:33.840]  [SPEAKER_17]: If you want to use Metro Media direct, you dial 10011 plus the area code and number.
[34:34.320 --> 34:36.580]  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, and what if I wanted to use Sprint?
[34:36.940 --> 34:37.840]  [SPEAKER_03]: Sprint is down.
[34:38.240 --> 34:39.140]  [SPEAKER_03]: Sprint is down completely.
[34:40.160 --> 34:43.500]  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, can you try hooking me up to which ones can you hook me up to?
[34:43.580 --> 34:43.920]  [SPEAKER_03]: Metro Media.
[34:44.120 --> 34:44.680]  [SPEAKER_03]: Metro Media?
[34:44.760 --> 34:46.120]  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, if you could try that, I'd appreciate it.
[34:46.180 --> 34:46.320]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, right.
[34:46.400 --> 34:46.600]  [SPEAKER_03]: Hold on.
[34:48.960 --> 34:51.800]  [SPEAKER_11]: One moment for an operator who can assist you.
[34:52.320 --> 34:53.020]  [SPEAKER_11]: Thank you.
[35:00.130 --> 35:02.030]  [SPEAKER_03]: If this works, this is Dina first.
[35:26.010 --> 35:27.190]  [SPEAKER_10]: Operative Amount, please.
[35:27.950 --> 35:28.390]  [SPEAKER_03]: Hello?
[35:28.710 --> 35:30.850]  [SPEAKER_10]: Metro Media Operative, this division may help you.
[35:31.410 --> 35:31.850]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
[35:32.010 --> 35:32.950]  [SPEAKER_03]: Is this Metro Media?
[35:33.210 --> 35:33.530]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yes.
[35:34.350 --> 35:37.970]  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm just curious how I would place a call with this particular company.
[35:37.970 --> 35:39.490]  [SPEAKER_03]: The operator hooked me up to you.
[35:40.410 --> 35:42.350]  [SPEAKER_03]: Do you accept calling cards?
[35:42.730 --> 35:44.590]  [SPEAKER_09]: We accept calling cards, yes.
[35:44.970 --> 35:47.930]  [SPEAKER_03]: So if I were to use my AT&T calling card here, it would work?
[35:48.230 --> 35:50.470]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, most of the cards go through, sir.
[35:50.970 --> 35:51.310]  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm sorry?
[35:51.590 --> 35:53.870]  [SPEAKER_09]: Most of AT&T cards go through.
[35:54.150 --> 35:54.510]  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[35:54.890 --> 35:58.670]  [SPEAKER_03]: Now, there's a problem with the long distance network, but that's not affecting this company at all?
[35:59.630 --> 36:00.110]  [SPEAKER_09]: No.
[36:00.630 --> 36:02.090]  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, so all your calls are going through?
[36:02.410 --> 36:02.570]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yes.
[36:02.890 --> 36:03.190]  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[36:03.750 --> 36:04.390]  [SPEAKER_03]: I was just checking.
[36:04.530 --> 36:05.210]  [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you for your help.
[36:05.430 --> 36:07.130]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay, thank you for calling my to me, dear.
[36:07.270 --> 36:07.830]  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, bye-bye.
[36:10.110 --> 36:13.130]  [SPEAKER_05]: Tuesday, 7, 19 p.m.
[36:29.340 --> 36:34.110]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, it was a bit of fun on a Tuesday, wasn't it, to attempt to make a phone call.
[36:35.050 --> 36:37.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: How many of you were able to do that successfully?
[36:38.340 --> 36:39.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'd like to know.
[36:39.420 --> 36:43.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'd like to know how many of you have learned from what we have been preaching here week after week?
[36:43.940 --> 36:50.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: How many of you have actually been able to route things around the problems as they occur?
[36:51.160 --> 36:52.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: No problem.
[36:52.200 --> 36:57.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, yeah, it sounded like I was having significant problems, but that was because I was trying to go through AT&T.
[36:59.220 --> 37:06.090]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's very simple to route things through other companies and avoid whatever is going on at the moment.
[37:07.180 --> 37:13.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: But, I don't know if you picked up on this, but there's a lot of misinformation there.
[37:14.280 --> 37:17.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: The guy, two operators, said that Sprint was down.
[37:17.980 --> 37:19.070]  [SPEAKER_06]: Sprint was never down.
[37:19.300 --> 37:20.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: Sprint never had any problem whatsoever.
[37:22.110 --> 37:25.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I heard it from at least three different operators.
[37:25.140 --> 37:29.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: There was another operator earlier on in the day that told me the same thing, that Sprint was completely down.
[37:29.570 --> 37:35.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: And one of those operators said MCI was down as well, both of which were fallacies.
[37:36.240 --> 37:45.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: MCI, we did have a circuit busy sound at one point, but they were never down because they weren't affected by an AT&T power failure.
[37:45.110 --> 37:47.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's common sense that that would be the case.
[37:47.900 --> 37:50.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: Why they were spreading that information, I do not know.
[37:51.200 --> 37:59.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: Another very interesting thing was the fact that they connected me to another long-distance company, something that they never did prior to that.
[37:59.340 --> 38:04.110]  [SPEAKER_06]: A New York telephone operator actually connecting me to a company other than AT&T.
[38:04.860 --> 38:06.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: Today, they will not do it.
[38:07.000 --> 38:11.110]  [SPEAKER_06]: I asked them today and they said, sorry, we can only connect you to AT&T.
[38:11.280 --> 38:17.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: So AT&T still has that unfair advantage and we have to ask ourselves why?
[38:17.960 --> 38:20.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: Why does AT&T still have an unfair advantage?
[38:20.700 --> 38:22.550]  [SPEAKER_06]: They've certainly proven they don't deserve it.
[38:23.880 --> 38:27.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: So that's something that we'll be continuing to ask questions about.
[38:28.180 --> 38:39.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: We'd like to hear from you both pledge wise at 212-279-3400 and also we want to hear from some of the listeners now to find out how you did during this latest crisis.
[38:40.180 --> 38:45.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: And the number to call to be on the air is 212-279-3407.
[38:46.180 --> 38:47.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yes, 3407.
[38:48.180 --> 38:53.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: Give us a call at that number and we'll compare stories and things like that.
[38:53.380 --> 38:58.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: But we really need to see the telephones start ringing as far as pledges.
[38:58.520 --> 39:02.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212-279-3400 for a $65 pledge.
[39:02.360 --> 39:23.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: You need never worry about being caught short in the long-distance department again because you'll get a free year of 2600 magazine, the Hacker Quarterly, the magazine that is not afraid to call a spade a spade and to talk about whatever is happening with the Bell operating companies and long-distance companies and things like that.
[39:24.020 --> 39:25.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, we've got them all mad at us.
[39:25.700 --> 39:32.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: Every phone company in the world is angry at 2600 because we always uncover things that they'd rather not talk about.
[39:32.900 --> 39:34.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: And we're going to continue doing that.
[39:35.280 --> 39:42.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's the kind of thing that freedom of the press is all about and sort of what BAI is all about too is freedom of speech.
[39:43.440 --> 39:47.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212-279-3400 show your support for WBAI.
[39:47.420 --> 39:50.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: Pledge $65 and receive that plus the program guide for a year.
[39:52.260 --> 39:56.590]  [SPEAKER_06]: Pledge whatever you can to get the program guide or any other amount.
[39:56.760 --> 40:03.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: We have all kinds of items that we'd like to send to you as part of our way of saying thanks.
[40:03.840 --> 40:19.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: And again, the number to call to trade some stories or tell us what happened to you during the great AT&T outage of Tuesday or whatever date it was yesterday, that number is 212-279-3407.
[40:19.820 --> 40:32.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: Also, if you have any questions concerning telephone dialing and the best ways to get around things like this, let me give you a couple of bits of information that you really should write down because they're important bits of information.
[40:33.560 --> 40:35.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: Carrier access codes.
[40:35.300 --> 40:35.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay?
[40:35.920 --> 40:40.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's important that you know how to route phone calls in case this happens again.
[40:40.820 --> 40:44.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's sad that the FAA does not have a way to do this.
[40:44.520 --> 40:46.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's something that I find shocking.
[40:47.680 --> 40:50.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: AT&T, of course, is 10288.
[40:50.220 --> 40:54.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's really the only one that seems to get advertised and it's really the one that you probably need the least.
[40:56.680 --> 40:58.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: 10222 is MCI.
[40:58.640 --> 41:04.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: And the way these work, you simply dial them in front of the area code and number that you're calling.
[41:04.220 --> 41:16.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: For instance, if you're calling a number in California and you want to use MCI, you would call 10222, add the area code, then add the number you call will go through MCI and not any other company.
[41:17.840 --> 41:25.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: 10333 is Sprint and there's two for Metro Media which used to be known as ITT.
[41:25.660 --> 41:30.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: They are 10488 and 10011.
[41:30.580 --> 41:37.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: There's others too and if you know of others, please tell us what they are because it's information that should be passed around freely.
[41:38.940 --> 41:52.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, we're going to take a couple of phone calls 722-279-3407 and we're also going to be speaking with the Assistant Commissioner for Telecommunications Policy.
[41:52.860 --> 41:59.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's in the New York City Department of Telecommunications and Energy, the mayor's office there.
[41:59.720 --> 42:01.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: So please give us a call.
[42:01.660 --> 42:03.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: We'll be going to that interview in just a moment.
[42:03.800 --> 42:04.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: Good evening.
[42:05.050 --> 42:08.080]  [SPEAKER_12]: Hi, is this 995?
[42:08.320 --> 42:09.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yes, you're on the air.
[42:09.660 --> 42:19.160]  [SPEAKER_12]: Hi, yeah, I was just calling to say that a couple years ago I tried to get some information from the different companies to try to find out which was the best price-wise and all that.
[42:19.670 --> 42:22.940]  [SPEAKER_12]: And interestingly enough, I had called Sprint and ITT and all the others.
[42:23.140 --> 42:29.000]  [SPEAKER_12]: When I got to AT&T, they said to me, AT&T, they said, oh, we see that you've called all the other places already.
[42:29.340 --> 42:32.480]  [SPEAKER_12]: So they had a listing of everybody that I had called.
[42:33.020 --> 42:33.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: Really?
[42:33.740 --> 42:35.540]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, I thought that was a little freaky.
[42:36.340 --> 42:37.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, who were they again?
[42:38.260 --> 42:39.080]  [SPEAKER_12]: AT&T.
[42:39.380 --> 42:41.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: They had a listing of...
[42:41.120 --> 42:46.780]  [SPEAKER_12]: They had known that I had just gotten off the phone with Sprint and IT&T and MCI.
[42:46.900 --> 42:47.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, how did you call them?
[42:47.860 --> 42:48.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: Did you use an 800 number?
[42:49.360 --> 42:49.700]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah.
[42:50.160 --> 42:52.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's awfully strange that they would know that.
[42:52.500 --> 42:53.280]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, I thought so.
[42:53.540 --> 42:56.260]  [SPEAKER_12]: That made me say absolutely no to them right away.
[42:56.780 --> 43:01.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, I can't imagine how they would think otherwise, but I'm very interested in how that could be done.
[43:02.860 --> 43:12.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's possible their 800 numbers were AT&T owned, but still I don't see how they would be able to watch your line and tell what it was you dialed.
[43:12.680 --> 43:19.100]  [SPEAKER_12]: Literally within minutes that I called them and they gave me the list of all the places that I had called.
[43:19.480 --> 43:20.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: And these were 800 numbers?
[43:20.940 --> 43:21.100]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah.
[43:21.840 --> 43:28.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: All right, well, I've never heard of such a thing like that, but I certainly don't discount it because anything is possible in today's technology.
[43:28.720 --> 43:28.960]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah.
[43:29.560 --> 43:30.980]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay, just wanted to fill you in.
[43:31.120 --> 43:31.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: Thanks for calling.
[43:31.960 --> 43:32.200]  [SPEAKER_12]: Bye-bye.
[43:33.140 --> 43:34.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: Andrew Phillips is here.
[43:34.780 --> 43:35.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: Hi, Emmanuel.
[43:35.520 --> 43:36.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: How are you doing?
[43:36.220 --> 43:36.440]  [SPEAKER_16]: All right.
[43:36.620 --> 43:37.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: How are we doing?
[43:37.660 --> 43:49.760]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, I want to just jump in here and encourage listeners to get on the hook here and otherwise we'll get the hook.
[43:51.000 --> 43:52.420]  [SPEAKER_16]: 279-3400 is the number.
[43:53.660 --> 44:16.420]  [SPEAKER_16]: This is a chance for you people who tune in regularly this time every week and Emmanuel Goldstein's been here for six months or so maybe more now but getting more regular it's great really interesting show important program about information it is information unusual program definitely don't get a show like this anywhere else this is a unique radio program and I know that you have a particularly
[44:17.060 --> 44:40.460]  [SPEAKER_16]: interesting and interested group of listeners and we're very proud at WBA I have this new Wednesday line-up with Michio and yourself We want you out there to show us that you think this is a good line-up too, that this is important information, and that you're going to give us some support because we need some help here.
[44:40.720 --> 44:57.360]  [SPEAKER_16]: We want to know that you, particularly new members, people that have never joined WBAI, that you support and understand that non-commercial free radio, the kind of thing that Emanuel talked about before, about AT&T and General Electric, that we don't have to worry about here.
[44:57.380 --> 45:06.140]  [SPEAKER_16]: We only have to worry three times a year about you who are listening right now going over to your telephones and dialing us at 279-3400 and becoming members.
[45:06.220 --> 45:14.200]  [SPEAKER_16]: Very briefly, $50 is the normal subscription rate, though tonight you can get $2,600 Emanuel's publication for a $65 pledge.
[45:14.520 --> 45:29.460]  [SPEAKER_16]: You can also get a subscription to PeaceNet, and we're going to talk much more about that in about 10 or 15 minutes with the man who works there, who certainly is Mr. PeaceNet, proud Howard Fredericks over there in California, and you can get a subscription to that also.
[45:29.600 --> 45:32.460]  [SPEAKER_16]: But the most important thing is that you join WBAI.
[45:32.560 --> 45:35.340]  [SPEAKER_16]: You become a member, a listener subscriber, a supporter.
[45:35.600 --> 45:37.400]  [SPEAKER_16]: You become part of this radio station.
[45:37.600 --> 45:38.300]  [SPEAKER_16]: Three calls on the line.
[45:38.460 --> 45:38.860]  [SPEAKER_16]: Interactive.
[45:39.480 --> 45:40.220]  [SPEAKER_16]: Three calls.
[45:40.400 --> 45:42.140]  [SPEAKER_16]: We've got enough room for another four, Emanuel.
[45:43.280 --> 45:44.080]  [SPEAKER_16]: 279-3400.
[45:44.240 --> 45:45.240]  [SPEAKER_16]: You're out there every Wednesday.
[45:45.500 --> 45:46.300]  [SPEAKER_16]: Come on, folks.
[45:46.440 --> 45:47.340]  [SPEAKER_16]: This is your chance.
[45:47.500 --> 45:48.560]  [SPEAKER_16]: This is your opportunity.
[45:48.840 --> 45:49.560]  [SPEAKER_16]: Give us a call.
[45:49.560 --> 45:51.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212-279-3400.
[45:52.120 --> 46:02.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: Never is it more important, when things start going wrong, that you realize the knowledge that we give you here at WBAI is useful.
[46:02.480 --> 46:14.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: What we've been talking about and trying to spread over the past few months now is something that you can actually use, because technology sometimes falls apart around us.
[46:14.200 --> 46:22.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: And when that happens, it's important that you not fall apart with it, like the airlines, like three major New York City airports closing down.
[46:22.360 --> 46:23.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: That kind of thing should not happen.
[46:23.640 --> 46:29.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: That kind of thing would not have happened had they known as much as you probably know by listening.
[46:29.560 --> 46:36.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: And that's why it's important to show your support, because by showing your support, you're enabling us to continue doing this into the future.
[46:36.840 --> 46:39.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212-279-3400.
[46:39.320 --> 46:41.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: Nor the radio station is going to do it.
[46:41.640 --> 46:50.940]  [SPEAKER_16]: One of the things that I like about this particular lineup on Wednesday nights, and I hope that BAI, that we're able to do more of this, quote-unquote, into-the-future radio.
[46:51.140 --> 46:51.900]  [SPEAKER_16]: You said it.
[46:52.020 --> 46:56.240]  [SPEAKER_16]: And I think on Wednesday nights, it's one chance that we do get to look into the future.
[46:56.460 --> 46:57.840]  [SPEAKER_16]: We're very good at WBAI.
[46:58.440 --> 47:02.180]  [SPEAKER_16]: And on the left, also, of looking into the past and analyzing and discussing.
[47:02.500 --> 47:04.960]  [SPEAKER_16]: But sometimes, we're not very good at looking into the future.
[47:05.160 --> 47:08.340]  [SPEAKER_16]: And I think this radio program is one real exception to that.
[47:08.560 --> 47:09.940]  [SPEAKER_16]: I think an exciting exception.
[47:09.940 --> 47:13.780]  [SPEAKER_16]: This is a unique radio program that actually is about information.
[47:13.780 --> 47:15.040]  [SPEAKER_16]: This is information.
[47:15.300 --> 47:16.380]  [SPEAKER_16]: This is telephones.
[47:16.520 --> 47:21.280]  [SPEAKER_16]: And you, actually, how interesting, become part of it when you dial us at 279-3400.
[47:21.360 --> 47:23.380]  [SPEAKER_16]: Andrew, for a second there, every phone line was lit.
[47:23.500 --> 47:23.780]  [SPEAKER_16]: Great.
[47:24.020 --> 47:25.700]  [SPEAKER_16]: We'll not be saying something that makes sense.
[47:25.700 --> 47:25.860]  [SPEAKER_16]: It should be.
[47:25.940 --> 47:27.280]  [SPEAKER_16]: This is an important program.
[47:27.280 --> 47:29.080]  [SPEAKER_16]: People know this is important.
[47:29.300 --> 47:31.520]  [SPEAKER_16]: And people know that information is important.
[47:31.820 --> 47:33.800]  [SPEAKER_16]: People understand that computers are important.
[47:33.800 --> 47:40.940]  [SPEAKER_16]: Exactly as you said last night when the system went down, boy, that tells us a lot about what's wrong with our culture and our society.
[47:41.100 --> 47:52.040]  [SPEAKER_16]: And this radio station, in its own low-tech way, with high-tech ideas, tries to come to terms with some of those perceptions and some of those social problems that we have.
[47:52.040 --> 47:57.560]  [SPEAKER_16]: And you help by supporting us by dialing 279-3400 and becoming a subscriber, a member.
[47:57.560 --> 48:01.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: We have two open lines, 212-279-3400.
[48:01.440 --> 48:03.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: Help keep BAI going strong.
[48:03.800 --> 48:05.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: We really need to hear from you.
[48:05.500 --> 48:06.220]  [SPEAKER_16]: And help.
[48:06.440 --> 48:08.200]  [SPEAKER_16]: See, it's not just us.
[48:08.280 --> 48:09.040]  [SPEAKER_16]: You help yourself.
[48:09.260 --> 48:11.540]  [SPEAKER_16]: This is a symbiotic relationship here.
[48:11.640 --> 48:12.480]  [SPEAKER_16]: We're in this together.
[48:12.480 --> 48:12.700]  [SPEAKER_16]: Absolutely.
[48:12.700 --> 48:16.600]  [SPEAKER_16]: And you people who listen to this show know more about symbiotics probably than most of us.
[48:16.680 --> 48:18.140]  [SPEAKER_16]: You understand how that works.
[48:19.080 --> 48:19.960]  [SPEAKER_16]: 279-3400.
[48:20.120 --> 48:21.120]  [SPEAKER_16]: We're in this together.
[48:21.300 --> 48:22.900]  [SPEAKER_16]: We can be nothing without you.
[48:22.900 --> 48:23.900]  [SPEAKER_16]: This is communication.
[48:24.160 --> 48:25.040]  [SPEAKER_16]: Shannon Weaver model.
[48:25.320 --> 48:26.960]  [SPEAKER_16]: Message, receive, all the rest of it.
[48:27.020 --> 48:28.700]  [SPEAKER_16]: I don't know the model too well, but it is about it.
[48:28.860 --> 48:30.500]  [SPEAKER_16]: We are receiving your message.
[48:30.660 --> 48:32.000]  [SPEAKER_16]: You're receiving our message.
[48:32.180 --> 48:33.900]  [SPEAKER_16]: We're creating something here.
[48:34.000 --> 48:35.520]  [SPEAKER_16]: It's an important institution.
[48:35.580 --> 48:37.460]  [SPEAKER_16]: And the link is the telephone number.
[48:38.260 --> 48:39.140]  [SPEAKER_16]: 279-3400.
[48:39.360 --> 48:40.680]  [SPEAKER_16]: That's you taking the action.
[48:40.920 --> 48:44.660]  [SPEAKER_16]: That's the lifeblood of the station.
[48:45.500 --> 48:46.380]  [SPEAKER_16]: 279-3400.
[48:46.540 --> 48:51.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: For you listeners in New Jersey and Connecticut that might be having trouble getting through, don't use AT&T.
[48:51.240 --> 48:52.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: Use MCI.
[48:52.380 --> 48:52.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: Use Sprint.
[48:53.300 --> 48:59.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: Preface your call with 10222 or 10333 or 10488 or whatever you need to preface it with.
[49:00.140 --> 49:04.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: If the carrier of your choice is not working at the moment, there's always a way to get through.
[49:04.780 --> 49:09.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, in the San Francisco earthquake, everybody was saying, oh, it was impossible to get through.
[49:09.500 --> 49:12.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: But we had no trouble because we used alternative phone companies.
[49:12.800 --> 49:16.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: And we spread knowledge about that on this program and through the magazine as well.
[49:16.680 --> 49:17.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's great.
[49:17.120 --> 49:19.640]  [SPEAKER_16]: So you never have to be out of touch.
[49:20.360 --> 49:21.860]  [SPEAKER_16]: See, this is very important.
[49:21.860 --> 49:23.160]  [SPEAKER_16]: There's a wonderful metaphor here.
[49:23.260 --> 49:26.320]  [SPEAKER_16]: And that's what WBAI is.
[49:26.440 --> 49:27.320]  [SPEAKER_16]: It is an alternative.
[49:27.520 --> 49:28.500]  [SPEAKER_16]: It is another way.
[49:28.640 --> 49:32.680]  [SPEAKER_16]: It's a very resilient system, this radio station.
[49:32.720 --> 49:34.080]  [SPEAKER_16]: It's a very resilient system.
[49:34.080 --> 49:35.660]  [SPEAKER_16]: It's very hard to stop.
[49:35.780 --> 49:38.200]  [SPEAKER_16]: And particularly because we're so decentralized.
[49:38.620 --> 49:39.840]  [SPEAKER_16]: $50 membership.
[49:39.840 --> 49:41.620]  [SPEAKER_16]: We have about 18,000 subscribers.
[49:41.820 --> 49:43.220]  [SPEAKER_16]: We'd like to have double that.
[49:43.420 --> 49:44.940]  [SPEAKER_16]: I think we can have double that.
[49:45.000 --> 49:47.500]  [SPEAKER_16]: But we've got more than we had like two years ago.
[49:47.660 --> 49:48.480]  [SPEAKER_16]: We are growing.
[49:48.640 --> 49:51.160]  [SPEAKER_16]: The way we grow is by new members coming on board.
[49:51.480 --> 50:05.000]  [SPEAKER_16]: We're a sustainable environment if we have the diversity of membership, if we have the outreach and if you can help us, if you listen to this program, if you listen to this station, then you can become a member.
[50:05.180 --> 50:09.320]  [SPEAKER_16]: If you can't afford $50, senior citizen, a student, $25 is fine.
[50:09.320 --> 50:11.520]  [SPEAKER_16]: You get the program guide for 12 months.
[50:11.520 --> 50:17.040]  [SPEAKER_16]: For $65, you get $2,600, which is a unique international publication.
[50:17.040 --> 50:17.960]  [SPEAKER_16]: It goes around the world.
[50:18.060 --> 50:19.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: And our summer issue has just come out.
[50:19.900 --> 50:20.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's kind of late, I know.
[50:20.880 --> 50:21.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: But it's just come out.
[50:21.900 --> 50:30.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: And if you subscribe for a $65 pledge, you will learn within the next few weeks exactly how credit card strips work.
[50:30.780 --> 50:39.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: You'll know exactly what those little bits of information on everyone's credit card are and how they are used and just exactly what they mean.
[50:39.680 --> 50:53.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: You'll also be finding out all kinds of things about the phone companies, certain internal documents that are passed along to us concerning class services, which is caller ID and things like that.
[50:53.020 --> 50:54.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: Everybody's interested in caller ID.
[50:54.600 --> 51:04.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now you can find out the phone company's angle, what it is they hope to get out of it because we've gotten the documents and we've written them up in an article and that's coming out in the next $2,600.
[51:05.020 --> 51:07.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: And that will be yours for a pledge of $65.
[51:07.500 --> 51:12.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: You'll get that for a year and you'll be opened up to a whole new world.
[51:12.280 --> 51:20.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, you think this show is something, once you really get into the culture, you find yourself completely transformed and you really become into it.
[51:20.680 --> 51:23.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: A lot of us are taught that technology is not for us.
[51:23.580 --> 51:25.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's something that we cannot understand.
[51:25.200 --> 51:26.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's nonsense.
[51:26.280 --> 51:30.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: Everybody is capable of understanding simple things about technology.
[51:30.340 --> 51:35.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: I don't care how old you are or where you're from, it's something that should not be kept from any of us.
[51:36.160 --> 51:38.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: And we want people to have hands-on access.
[51:38.380 --> 51:44.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: We want people to know what happens if you press this button and why and all kinds of things like that.
[51:44.060 --> 51:46.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's important for people to ask questions.
[51:46.600 --> 51:48.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's what we encourage you to do here at WBAI.
[51:48.560 --> 51:51.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: And that's what we encourage you to do in this particular program.
[51:51.900 --> 51:53.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: And hopefully we provide you with lots of answers.
[51:54.060 --> 52:00.720]  [SPEAKER_16]: If I'm not mistaken, Emmanuel, we've made this evening since we started, which must include me's show, about $1,380.
[52:01.140 --> 52:02.600]  [SPEAKER_16]: Now, that's not bad, but it's not great.
[52:02.740 --> 52:07.060]  [SPEAKER_16]: I think we should be able to hit $2,000 by the end of this show, which is pretty soon.
[52:07.160 --> 52:21.300]  [SPEAKER_16]: But that takes a couple of you, perhaps with a little bit more money, maybe $500 or $250 or $150 or $100, some of you that can afford a little bit more money, we know that some of you can, for you to do a little bit more, because there are so many people now,
[52:21.400 --> 52:23.860]  [SPEAKER_16]: so many of us now, that simply can't afford the $50.
[52:24.240 --> 52:25.120]  [SPEAKER_16]: I mean, these are rough times.
[52:25.140 --> 52:35.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: This is a time of crisis, not only financially, but as far as freedom of speech, a lot of things are happening, and they're happening kind of a little bit too quickly for a lot of us to deal with.
[52:35.440 --> 52:39.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: So it's hitting us very hard, and things could change.
[52:39.240 --> 52:40.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: Things really could change.
[52:40.160 --> 52:40.800]  [SPEAKER_16]: It's $1,590.
[52:41.000 --> 52:41.780]  [SPEAKER_16]: We're nearly $1,600.
[52:42.340 --> 52:45.460]  [SPEAKER_16]: We just need another $400 a manual, and we've hit $2,000.
[52:45.780 --> 52:47.800]  [SPEAKER_16]: We should be able to do that very, very quickly.
[52:47.880 --> 52:49.500]  [SPEAKER_16]: That's about eight... what is that?
[52:49.720 --> 52:50.980]  [SPEAKER_16]: Eight... no, it's more than that.
[52:51.440 --> 52:52.000]  [SPEAKER_16]: What is that?
[52:52.100 --> 52:55.760]  [SPEAKER_16]: Six... it's about eight subscribers at $50, right?
[52:55.760 --> 52:56.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: Don't ask me to do arithmetic.
[52:56.880 --> 52:57.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: I was never good at that.
[52:57.960 --> 52:58.080]  [SPEAKER_16]: Okay.
[52:58.780 --> 53:01.280]  [SPEAKER_16]: Ten subscribers, and I think we can hit $2,000.
[53:01.600 --> 53:12.160]  [SPEAKER_16]: There must be ten people out there listening right now, 279-3400, that can't afford to subscribe, do want to get hold of $2,600 or the PeaceNet subscription.
[53:12.740 --> 53:21.080]  [SPEAKER_16]: Can't afford the $50 or the $65 or the $200 amount that you are prepared to offer us at 10 o'clock on this Wednesday evening.
[53:21.420 --> 53:22.920]  [SPEAKER_16]: 279-3400, please.
[53:23.160 --> 53:23.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212 area code.
[53:23.620 --> 53:24.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: We have four calls on the line.
[53:25.080 --> 53:25.080]  That's right.
[53:25.080 --> 53:26.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: Can we make that three more?
[53:26.360 --> 53:27.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: And we... another three?
[53:27.940 --> 53:28.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: Is that how many you need?
[53:28.260 --> 53:29.200]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, to make it seven.
[53:29.320 --> 53:30.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: To make it seven, right.
[53:30.180 --> 53:30.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: And fill up the board.
[53:30.860 --> 53:32.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: I told you arithmetic's not my subject.
[53:32.200 --> 53:34.100]  [SPEAKER_16]: And to fill up the board, because we've got seven lines in.
[53:34.180 --> 53:35.760]  [SPEAKER_16]: We have some great volunteers back there.
[53:35.800 --> 53:40.020]  [SPEAKER_16]: We've even got some great cake and donuts from the Cupcake Cafe.
[53:40.240 --> 53:40.920]  [SPEAKER_16]: Thank you, Cupcake.
[53:41.080 --> 53:41.420]  [SPEAKER_16]: That's great.
[53:41.440 --> 53:42.120]  [SPEAKER_16]: Okay, I'll be out of here soon.
[53:42.200 --> 53:45.740]  [SPEAKER_16]: Look, we're at 1665-279-3400.
[53:45.860 --> 53:47.360]  [SPEAKER_16]: We can do this really quickly, folks.
[53:47.540 --> 53:51.760]  [SPEAKER_16]: Go to your phones, take the action, be part of the solution, be radioactive.
[53:53.290 --> 53:54.920]  [SPEAKER_16]: 279-3400, but don't glow in the dark.
[53:54.920 --> 53:58.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, I think everybody in this room has done it at some point, called in and made a pledge.
[53:59.020 --> 54:00.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: You don't feel drained afterwards.
[54:00.700 --> 54:02.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: You feel great afterwards.
[54:02.020 --> 54:04.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: You feel like you've really become a part of something.
[54:04.260 --> 54:06.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: And we all feel that way here at WBAI.
[54:06.660 --> 54:21.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: When we do our bit, whatever it is, when we talk about issues that we know something about, when we communicate with people, you'll feel that same rush, that same rush of energy that makes you feel like you really matter, and you do matter.
[54:21.460 --> 54:23.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: Every individual person out there counts.
[54:23.340 --> 54:27.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's not like, you know, Dr. Gene Scott or the PTL Club or something like that.
[54:27.700 --> 54:29.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: Not that I want to criticize those people.
[54:29.500 --> 54:30.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'm sure they're very nice.
[54:30.320 --> 54:33.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: But the point is, they work in massive scales.
[54:33.700 --> 54:37.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, every person, you know, doesn't really mean that much by themselves.
[54:37.340 --> 54:39.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: And they get billions and billions of dollars somehow.
[54:40.140 --> 54:43.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: But here at WBAI, we struggle for each and every pledge.
[54:43.800 --> 54:45.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: And each and every pledge does matter.
[54:45.500 --> 54:49.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's why we cherish seeing the phones ringing.
[54:49.240 --> 54:51.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: And right now I can tell you that there's two open lines.
[54:51.760 --> 54:57.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: Seeing those lines ring will mean a great deal to me, will mean a great deal to everybody else down in Italy as well.
[54:57.860 --> 55:01.480]  [SPEAKER_16]: I tell you, this is... this is a great man sitting opposite me, Emmanuel Gostin.
[55:01.480 --> 55:02.400]  [SPEAKER_16]: I love this guy.
[55:02.680 --> 55:02.940]  [SPEAKER_16]: He's good.
[55:03.000 --> 55:04.420]  [SPEAKER_16]: This guy does good work.
[55:04.520 --> 55:05.480]  [SPEAKER_16]: This is good radio.
[55:06.100 --> 55:08.360]  [SPEAKER_16]: This is a unique radio program.
[55:08.480 --> 55:10.560]  [SPEAKER_16]: I don't think... maybe, I don't know, maybe Negative Land.
[55:10.720 --> 55:16.240]  [SPEAKER_16]: Maybe out in San Francisco at our sister station, there's a show like this.
[55:16.320 --> 55:16.660]  [SPEAKER_16]: I don't know.
[55:16.740 --> 55:20.340]  [SPEAKER_16]: But the kind of work that this guy does that you do is important work.
[55:20.540 --> 55:21.660]  [SPEAKER_16]: I mean, this is great stuff.
[55:21.780 --> 55:23.020]  [SPEAKER_16]: And I think this...
[55:23.020 --> 55:25.140]  [SPEAKER_16]: those Negative Land guys, they're too bizarre for even me.
[55:25.700 --> 55:27.340]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah, but I know you like their work.
[55:27.500 --> 55:30.360]  [SPEAKER_16]: But I like what this show is about.
[55:30.500 --> 55:34.460]  [SPEAKER_16]: I think this is the way of the future for a lot of radio, as a matter of fact.
[55:34.560 --> 55:36.540]  [SPEAKER_16]: The kind of stuff that you use the technology.
[55:36.540 --> 55:37.680]  [SPEAKER_16]: We are the technology.
[55:37.680 --> 55:38.680]  [SPEAKER_16]: We are part of it.
[55:38.780 --> 55:42.140]  [SPEAKER_16]: And I think many of our listeners understand that, how important that is.
[55:42.200 --> 55:43.980]  [SPEAKER_16]: This is like... this is cutting edge.
[55:44.100 --> 55:51.760]  [SPEAKER_16]: I think in the year 2000, if we're going to really go somewhere in this radio business, we've got to stop looking backwards and start looking forwards.
[55:52.040 --> 55:54.340]  [SPEAKER_16]: And this radio program is a really good example of that.
[55:54.380 --> 55:58.780]  [SPEAKER_16]: And I think you who are subscribing now, I think we're getting a pretty good response to recognize that.
[55:58.920 --> 55:59.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: I just turned up the tally room now.
[55:59.640 --> 56:02.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's been making that noise all throughout, but I didn't think to turn it up until now.
[56:02.620 --> 56:03.640]  [SPEAKER_16]: It's just a tape loop, right?
[56:04.600 --> 56:07.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: This is actually live, live goings on down the hall.
[56:08.020 --> 56:10.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: Make those phones ring 212-279-3400.
[56:10.880 --> 56:11.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: Don't just make them ring.
[56:12.100 --> 56:12.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: Stay on the line.
[56:12.980 --> 56:16.560]  [SPEAKER_16]: When you did your piece before, how did you explain technically how you did that piece before?
[56:16.560 --> 56:17.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, that was extremely simple.
[56:17.560 --> 56:23.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: All I did was pick up my phone and hit the record button on my answering machine, and I just kept trying different things.
[56:23.260 --> 56:28.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: And the answering machine is nice enough to time-date stamp it between every recording.
[56:28.460 --> 56:30.460]  [SPEAKER_16]: And then you ran the music through it live behind you.
[56:30.500 --> 56:32.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, the music, I just played a record just now.
[56:32.260 --> 56:35.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: No, no great technical expertise needed for that kind of thing.
[56:36.120 --> 56:37.020]  [SPEAKER_16]: But it sounds good.
[56:37.020 --> 56:37.640]  [SPEAKER_16]: It's interesting.
[56:37.780 --> 56:38.240]  [SPEAKER_16]: It creates a mood.
[56:38.240 --> 56:39.120]  [SPEAKER_16]: It's what comes out in the end.
[56:39.220 --> 56:40.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, that's what matters.
[56:40.480 --> 56:40.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's right.
[56:46.560 --> 56:47.520]  [SPEAKER_16]: I should, shouldn't I?
[56:48.360 --> 56:50.040]  [SPEAKER_16]: Investigations in... what is it called?
[56:50.240 --> 56:50.420]  [SPEAKER_16]: Sound...
[56:50.420 --> 56:52.140]  [SPEAKER_16]: Explorations in radio, sound, and music.
[56:52.360 --> 56:52.880]  [SPEAKER_16]: I'd like to.
[56:53.100 --> 56:53.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[56:53.500 --> 56:55.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: But I can only do that if this radio station is here.
[56:55.900 --> 56:56.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's true.
[56:56.500 --> 57:00.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: And this radio station cannot stay here without support from our listeners.
[57:00.360 --> 57:11.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: And we only ask for your support every now and then because we want to be able to continue bringing you programs uninterrupted and without all this appealing for funds.
[57:11.340 --> 57:12.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: But it is necessary.
[57:12.420 --> 57:15.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's not something that we get great joy out of doing.
[57:15.520 --> 57:17.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: But it is necessary.
[57:17.000 --> 57:17.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: We have to do it.
[57:17.840 --> 57:19.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: If we do not do it, the station will not exist.
[57:20.320 --> 57:21.340]  [SPEAKER_16]: 279-3400.
[57:21.480 --> 57:23.580]  [SPEAKER_16]: Emanuel also works at another radio station, right?
[57:23.580 --> 57:26.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, in fact, the Pacifica affiliate out in Long Island, WUSB.
[57:26.660 --> 57:34.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's funny because last night or yesterday evening, we first realized that something was wrong as we were trying to dial into Pacifica.
[57:34.920 --> 57:35.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: To pick up the news.
[57:35.980 --> 57:36.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: To pick up the news.
[57:36.780 --> 57:45.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: And fortunately, I'm able to tell like right away that it was AT&T that had a problem and not the local phone, not the telephone, not the instrument itself.
[57:45.280 --> 57:49.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's good to have that knowledge to know where something is going wrong.
[57:49.500 --> 57:51.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, I could tell that the phone was switching.
[57:51.700 --> 57:54.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: It was getting out of the central office and it was getting to New York City.
[57:55.400 --> 57:56.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: And then it was hanging.
[57:56.600 --> 57:58.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: It just wasn't making it down to Washington, D.C.
[57:59.520 --> 58:00.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, that knowledge...
[58:00.420 --> 58:02.020]  [SPEAKER_16]: That's where the Pacifica news bureau is.
[58:02.020 --> 58:02.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: Right.
[58:02.440 --> 58:03.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's what we were trying to call.
[58:03.340 --> 58:09.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: That knowledge was able to... it was enough to tell me that we should reroute the call through another phone company, AMCI or something like that.
[58:10.020 --> 58:12.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: And we were able to do that and get through in about 30 seconds.
[58:12.420 --> 58:13.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: So you got the news on.
[58:13.360 --> 58:16.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: Instead of just trying over and over and over again like most people would do.
[58:17.640 --> 58:19.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: So there's always alternatives.
[58:19.300 --> 58:22.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: Technology has been set up in a way so that you can always get around something.
[58:22.960 --> 58:25.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: But you have to know how to do it or it's really no good.
[58:26.060 --> 58:28.140]  [SPEAKER_16]: Have you ever read Sol Uryk's book, Richard A.?
[58:28.140 --> 58:28.780]  [SPEAKER_16]: No, I haven't.
[58:28.860 --> 58:29.520]  [SPEAKER_16]: It's a great book.
[58:29.680 --> 58:31.700]  [SPEAKER_16]: I must give you a copy of it.
[58:31.700 --> 58:33.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: Radio people never have time to read things.
[58:33.600 --> 58:33.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's true.
[58:33.960 --> 58:34.680]  [SPEAKER_16]: Most of us can't.
[58:34.680 --> 58:42.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: I want to get to the very quick interview that we have with the mayor's department, mayor's office.
[58:42.740 --> 58:44.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: This is Tom Dunleavy.
[58:44.540 --> 58:46.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: We spoke to him earlier today.
[58:46.760 --> 58:54.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: He's the assistant commissioner for telecommunications policy in the New York City Department of Telecommunications and Energy.
[58:54.100 --> 58:55.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: You should see the sign in his door.
[58:57.300 --> 59:10.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: And basically what that huge organization is all about, they take care of policy and planning that impacts virtually anything having to do with the city of New York communications-wise.
[59:10.600 --> 59:14.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: And certainly what happened here yesterday has quite a bit to do with that.
[59:14.960 --> 59:16.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: So we're going to hear what he has to say.
[59:16.320 --> 59:25.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: Then we're going to go into various other things with PeaceNet, and we'll be back in just a couple of minutes.
[59:25.560 --> 59:31.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: With regards to what happened yesterday with AT&T, what is the city's position on that?
[59:31.300 --> 59:45.200]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, essentially, we think that the advances in technology make the entire telecommunications infrastructure in the city of New York more vulnerable.
[59:45.600 --> 59:55.520]  [SPEAKER_02]: The mayor anticipated this last year when he created the mayor's task force on telecommunications network reliability.
[59:55.520 --> 01:00:37.180]  [SPEAKER_02]: That task force has been working since last September, and a key component of it is the creation of a mutual aid and restoration agreement among service providers so that if something, a tragedy happened as happened last night, telecommunications users would be able to essentially reroute their traffic through other carriers in order to avoid the kind of service interruption that may have been
[01:00:37.180 --> 01:00:38.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: experienced last night.
[01:00:38.360 --> 01:00:41.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, that's something that we find so hard to understand here.
[01:00:41.620 --> 01:00:46.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: Why isn't it possible to simply make calls using another company?
[01:00:46.300 --> 01:00:47.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: Why is it so hard?
[01:00:47.400 --> 01:01:04.260]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, you can make calls using another company, but I don't think that the general public is necessarily as well-versed in the technology or the operation of telecommunications companies as you are.
[01:01:04.260 --> 01:01:29.820]  [SPEAKER_02]: Many of the customers last night who were impacted by the AT&T outage could have simply selected MCI or SPRINT or one of the other long-distance carriers by using dial-around procedures, which is dialing 10, 1-0, and three digits to designate MCI or SPRINT.
[01:01:29.820 --> 01:01:36.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, as far as the air traffic controllers, why weren't they able to reroute something as easily as that?
[01:01:36.700 --> 01:01:40.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I think that that's through the switch network.
[01:01:40.660 --> 01:01:52.380]  [SPEAKER_02]: I think that what happened here is that the air traffic controllers and the Federal Aviation Administration has as their primary carrier AT&T.
[01:01:52.380 --> 01:01:58.520]  [SPEAKER_02]: And when that segment of the network went down, there was a major impact.
[01:01:59.000 --> 01:02:08.120]  [SPEAKER_02]: The power failure that AT&T experienced at Thomas Street last night put out 703 carrier channels.
[01:02:08.680 --> 01:02:21.720]  [SPEAKER_02]: And indeed, it is my understanding, and I don't have firsthand knowledge of it, but it is my understanding that some of the air traffic controllers did indeed communicate with other traffic control centers.
[01:02:30.580 --> 01:02:35.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: As technology becomes more advanced, it becomes more vulnerable.
[01:02:35.480 --> 01:02:36.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: It seems like kind of an oxymoron.
[01:02:36.900 --> 01:02:48.060]  [SPEAKER_02]: It sounds like an oxymoron, except that vulnerability comes in the form of concentration of facilities.
[01:02:48.440 --> 01:02:56.240]  [SPEAKER_02]: Whereas in past years, telephone communications was carried on copper pairs.
[01:02:56.240 --> 01:03:20.060]  [SPEAKER_02]: Today, it is carried on fiber optics, and you get, in a cable, perhaps with the diameter of your thumb, you get 100,000 voice paths, where in the past, a cable with an 8 or 9 inch diameter would have 9,000 paths.
[01:03:20.060 --> 01:03:38.580]  [SPEAKER_02]: And similarly, when you have the breakup of the regional bell operating companies and AT&T that took place in 1984, you now had a higher concentration of switching centers for these inter-exchange carriers.
[01:03:39.260 --> 01:03:40.680]  [SPEAKER_02]: So there are fewer centers.
[01:03:41.640 --> 01:03:43.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: And is there less redundancy?
[01:03:43.640 --> 01:03:55.320]  [SPEAKER_02]: I think that there's an effort on the part of all carriers, to the degree that it is economically feasible, to build redundancy into their network.
[01:03:55.780 --> 01:03:58.500]  [SPEAKER_02]: That is a business decision.
[01:03:58.700 --> 01:04:03.880]  [SPEAKER_02]: It has to do with capital investment, return on investment, and the probability of failure.
[01:04:04.400 --> 01:04:15.560]  [SPEAKER_02]: AT&T is indeed developing redundancy in their network through a system called FASTAR, which is due to be...
[01:04:15.560 --> 01:04:19.420]  [SPEAKER_02]: They have been working on it for a while, and...
[01:04:19.940 --> 01:04:24.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: I believe they say that if this had happened after October 15th, this wouldn't have happened.
[01:04:24.480 --> 01:04:24.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: Pardon me?
[01:04:25.160 --> 01:04:31.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: I believe what they said was if this happened after October 15th, the results wouldn't have been anywhere near as bad.
[01:04:31.840 --> 01:04:32.760]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's disastrous.
[01:04:33.040 --> 01:04:34.320]  [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think they would have been.
[01:04:35.060 --> 01:04:38.180]  [SPEAKER_02]: Whether or not that date is October 15th, I don't know.
[01:04:38.180 --> 01:04:40.320]  [SPEAKER_02]: If they say that, I'll take their word for it.
[01:04:40.700 --> 01:04:41.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: Do you...
[01:04:41.560 --> 01:04:47.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: Is it the position of the mayor's office that AT&T has been doing enough to prevent this kind of a thing, or is there...
[01:04:47.000 --> 01:04:47.840]  [SPEAKER_02]: No, they are not.
[01:04:48.100 --> 01:04:58.180]  [SPEAKER_02]: We believe that as part of the mayor's task force on network reliability, we are trying to develop a compact for mutual aid and restoration.
[01:04:58.660 --> 01:05:04.220]  [SPEAKER_02]: There are 14 inter-exchange carriers serving this area, and the city in particular.
[01:05:05.460 --> 01:05:17.020]  [SPEAKER_02]: And we think that 13 of them have agreed to participation, and AT&T has not yet signed on.
[01:05:17.640 --> 01:05:21.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: Do you think this will be the final shove that will get them on?
[01:05:21.800 --> 01:05:32.180]  [SPEAKER_02]: I sincerely hope that it will be, because I think it's in their best interest, as well as the best interest of the city and all the telecommunications users, that they be part of this mutual aid and restoration program.
[01:05:32.180 --> 01:05:33.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: One final question.
[01:05:33.640 --> 01:05:38.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: We had a day where three major airports were closed, a lot of people were inconvenienced.
[01:05:38.780 --> 01:05:40.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: Who winds up paying for all this?
[01:05:43.960 --> 01:05:45.500]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not sure I understand.
[01:05:45.500 --> 01:05:50.400]  [SPEAKER_02]: I think that the people who...
[01:05:50.400 --> 01:06:00.120]  [SPEAKER_02]: the ones who pay are those who are inconvenienced, and the carriers, particularly AT&T, in making good their network.
[01:06:01.120 --> 01:06:05.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: But AT&T does not assume any kind of liability when this kind of thing happens.
[01:06:05.720 --> 01:06:07.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: Not to my knowledge, I think.
[01:06:07.520 --> 01:06:10.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think that they have a liability.
[01:06:10.140 --> 01:06:10.820]  [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.
[01:06:17.430 --> 01:06:29.090]  [SPEAKER_06]: And that was an interview with Tom Dunleavy, Assistant Commissioner for Telecommunications Policy, the Mayor's Office, here on Off the Hook, on WBAI in New York.
[01:06:29.270 --> 01:06:41.670]  [SPEAKER_06]: And that pretty much brings us to the close of our Off the Hook segment of the program, where we talk about technology, the failings thereof, and the advantages there, too, or what have you.
[01:06:42.210 --> 01:06:42.990]  [SPEAKER_06]: Stay tuned.
[01:06:43.110 --> 01:06:51.230]  [SPEAKER_06]: We're going to be continuing talking about PeaceNet tonight and all kinds of other technological and environmental issues.
[01:06:51.690 --> 01:06:53.250]  [SPEAKER_06]: This is WBAI in New York.
[01:06:53.250 --> 01:06:54.810]  [SPEAKER_06]: We're looking for your support.
[01:06:55.650 --> 01:06:59.870]  [SPEAKER_06]: And we would like you to give us a call at 212-279-3400.
[01:06:59.870 --> 01:07:09.870]  [SPEAKER_06]: Again, for a pledge of $65, you can receive 2600 Magazine, The Hacker Quarterly, and learn all the things that you're not supposed to know about.
[01:07:10.290 --> 01:07:12.750]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212-279-3400.
[01:07:12.930 --> 01:07:15.010]  [SPEAKER_06]: Show your support for non-commercial radio.
[01:07:15.270 --> 01:07:17.450]  [SPEAKER_06]: Show your support for WBAI.
[01:07:39.190 --> 01:08:06.330]  [SPEAKER_07]: Some days I wept with a hole in my head Suffer it from a shell shot Shrapnel in my bed There's terror on my face When you pull me so near you I wrap my arms around you Like a baby full of fear And a vision of the future With Sutherland, this kid You got a pin in me
[01:08:19.540 --> 01:08:45.660]  [SPEAKER_07]: That you've seen in me I'm high as a kite A soaring ee In the gesticul fight There's joy on my face And that ploy is so near you I wrap my arms around you I'm living without a care When I descend I'm flying up and flying up
[01:09:16.260 --> 01:09:22.200]  [SPEAKER_13]: And you're tuned to Listener-sponsored Radio WBAI 99.5 FM.
[01:09:22.200 --> 01:09:31.380]  [SPEAKER_13]: This is Evelyn Tully-Costa, and we'll be here till 11 o'clock tonight as part of WBAI's fundraising membership drive here on September 18, 1991.
[01:09:31.660 --> 01:09:33.300]  [SPEAKER_13]: We've got a full house tonight, folks.
[01:09:33.500 --> 01:09:39.270]  [SPEAKER_13]: If you've been listening since 7.30, you heard Michio Kaku do nuclear war, peace, and science issues.
[01:09:39.580 --> 01:09:52.970]  [SPEAKER_13]: And then at 9 o'clock, Emmanuel Goldstein, who just wrapped up, actually still in the studio right now, talking about the AT&T fiasco yesterday and, I guess, our interdependence on technology these days.
[01:09:53.230 --> 01:09:57.760]  [SPEAKER_13]: Now, we promised you that we were going to be talking to Howard Fredericks, who we're trying to reach on the phone.
[01:09:58.520 --> 01:10:05.300]  [SPEAKER_13]: I think that luckily we're in the capable hands of Emmanuel Goldstein, and if anyone can reach Howard, Emmanuel will.
[01:10:06.310 --> 01:10:08.140]  [SPEAKER_13]: We're going to be talking about PeaceNet tonight.
[01:10:08.140 --> 01:10:11.140]  [SPEAKER_13]: We have offered it all night as a subscription.
[01:10:11.140 --> 01:10:17.260]  [SPEAKER_13]: Some of you may not exactly understand what that means when we say we have subscriptions to PeaceNet.
[01:10:17.430 --> 01:10:24.660]  [SPEAKER_13]: And if you become a member of this radio station, you can also hook in, wire in, log on to PeaceNet as well.
[01:10:24.840 --> 01:10:44.080]  [SPEAKER_13]: And we're going to have Bill Bowles tonight explain to us what PeaceNet is, why people use computers, why people haven't been using computers, and how the wide world of personal computer intercommunication is now spreading, and I think for the better of all of us and understanding on this planet.
[01:10:44.390 --> 01:10:48.350]  [SPEAKER_13]: Also in the studio with us tonight is Dennis Law, who's an environmental activist.
[01:10:48.700 --> 01:11:00.760]  [SPEAKER_13]: And later on in the program, after some of you have parted with some of your money, Dennis is going to tell us how local grassroots environmentalists can get, or can use a free global environmental computer network.
[01:11:00.920 --> 01:11:02.560]  [SPEAKER_13]: And I think Bill also knows about that.
[01:11:02.560 --> 01:11:04.460]  [SPEAKER_13]: We're going to be talking about EarthNet as well.
[01:11:06.810 --> 01:11:09.580]  [SPEAKER_13]: So, let's see if we have Howard Fredericks on the line.
[01:11:09.660 --> 01:11:10.760]  [SPEAKER_13]: Do we have Howard Fredericks on the line?
[01:11:10.760 --> 01:11:11.390]  [SPEAKER_13]: No, we don't.
[01:11:11.500 --> 01:11:13.760]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay, so we're going to go to Bill Bowles first.
[01:11:14.020 --> 01:11:14.810]  [SPEAKER_13]: Bill, are you with us?
[01:11:14.920 --> 01:11:15.180]  [SPEAKER_13]: Hi, Bill.
[01:11:15.180 --> 01:11:15.770]  [SPEAKER_13]: I keep waking up.
[01:11:15.850 --> 01:11:20.310]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'm talking about the flagaries of the telephone network.
[01:11:21.840 --> 01:11:22.230]  [SPEAKER_13]: Hello?
[01:11:22.580 --> 01:11:24.020]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, hold on just a minute, Bill.
[01:11:26.810 --> 01:11:32.200]  [SPEAKER_13]: Right, okay, just to remind everybody that we're also in the place of the personal computer show tonight.
[01:11:32.200 --> 01:11:35.420]  [SPEAKER_13]: So, they will be back next week at their regular time.
[01:11:35.560 --> 01:11:36.180]  [SPEAKER_13]: Two-hour special?
[01:11:36.420 --> 01:11:37.040]  [SPEAKER_13]: Oh, okay.
[01:11:37.270 --> 01:11:39.600]  [SPEAKER_13]: And I've just been informed from 9 until 11.
[01:11:39.800 --> 01:11:47.500]  [SPEAKER_13]: So, for all of those of you who love the personal computer show, you will get two hours full of it next week.
[01:11:47.700 --> 01:11:51.040]  [SPEAKER_13]: All right, Bill, let's get back to the discussion about computers.
[01:11:51.040 --> 01:12:01.270]  [SPEAKER_13]: I thought maybe we'd back up a little bit and maybe not assume that everyone who's tuning into the show even understands why computers are essential.
[01:12:02.040 --> 01:12:08.180]  [SPEAKER_13]: So, let's just talk a little bit about the fact that affordable computers have been available for quite a while now.
[01:12:08.980 --> 01:12:10.640]  [SPEAKER_13]: Who has been using them?
[01:12:10.730 --> 01:12:16.680]  [SPEAKER_13]: And why haven't certain sectors of the progressive movement, if we want to call it that, why haven't they been using computers?
[01:12:18.540 --> 01:12:29.640]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, I suppose it's a complex problem, but to try and reduce it to its elements, computers started life in a very rarefied and very specialized kind of environment.
[01:12:29.880 --> 01:12:36.660]  [SPEAKER_15]: Basically, the military and academia, universities, you know, and big business and the government.
[01:12:37.000 --> 01:12:40.300]  [SPEAKER_15]: And that was the genesis of the computer and the computer network.
[01:12:41.270 --> 01:12:48.120]  [SPEAKER_15]: And it was like that probably for the first, you know, decade or so, or maybe a bit longer of its life.
[01:12:49.140 --> 01:13:05.930]  [SPEAKER_15]: The invention of the... the advent of the personal computer changed everything because it meant that what had previously been essentially restricted to institutions with lots and lots of money became available to people like you and me.
[01:13:05.930 --> 01:13:12.680]  [SPEAKER_15]: And by the time we'd reached the beginning of the 1980s, the cost of a computer had dropped to...
[01:13:13.230 --> 01:13:16.270]  [SPEAKER_15]: from $2,000 or $3,000 to $2,000 or $300.
[01:13:17.040 --> 01:13:19.840]  [SPEAKER_15]: So there'd been a kind of tenfold reduction in the price.
[01:13:20.580 --> 01:13:24.200]  [SPEAKER_15]: Coupled to this, of course, was the telephone network.
[01:13:25.120 --> 01:13:34.180]  [SPEAKER_15]: The thing about listening to a bit of a manual thing before it started, this thing that happened yesterday, it just shows you how fragile the whole thing is.
[01:13:34.180 --> 01:13:53.880]  [SPEAKER_15]: But anyway, the other crucial component that made what is now possible for all of us to access potentially is the telephone network itself, which, of course, eventually became an integral part of the computer network because computers are used to control the telephone network,
[01:13:53.880 --> 01:13:57.350]  [SPEAKER_15]: and we use computers to access other computers.
[01:13:57.350 --> 01:14:07.270]  [SPEAKER_15]: So they all got jumbled up into this what, I suppose, can be viewed as a nervous system of, you know, of a complex technical culture, which is the one that we've constructed.
[01:14:07.800 --> 01:14:08.260]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay?
[01:14:09.380 --> 01:14:11.430]  [SPEAKER_15]: So, all right, so what are the elements?
[01:14:11.430 --> 01:14:20.920]  [SPEAKER_15]: So we have the telephone network itself, which is, you know, cable and satellite and microwave and all that stuff, and then the PC, like the one I'm sitting in front of now.
[01:14:21.720 --> 01:14:45.560]  [SPEAKER_15]: Basically, what you do is you take a program which turns your PC from a word processor into an electronic communicator, and you send information via another device called a modem, which converts the data of the computer into signals that can be sent down the telephone line to another computer somewhere else.
[01:14:45.560 --> 01:14:51.340]  [SPEAKER_15]: It could be around the planet, it could be next door, whatever.
[01:14:53.600 --> 01:15:01.930]  [SPEAKER_15]: In other words, it could be an individual computer, just like mine, or it could be a computer which is connected to lots of other computers.
[01:15:02.640 --> 01:15:06.430]  [SPEAKER_15]: And so you share, as it were, a kind of an electronic space.
[01:15:06.890 --> 01:15:10.220]  [SPEAKER_15]: And one of these big networked systems is PeaceNet.
[01:15:10.220 --> 01:15:25.080]  [SPEAKER_15]: Basically, what PeaceNet is, is it's a computer, a kind of mini-computer out in California, which ties into one aspect of the telephone network, the global telephone network, and that's called a packet-switching network.
[01:15:25.220 --> 01:15:34.540]  [SPEAKER_15]: And essentially what that is, it's a telephone network that's dedicated not to sending voice signals down it, people talking to each other, but data, computer data.
[01:15:35.310 --> 01:15:40.210]  [SPEAKER_15]: And it's a bit like a railway network, if you think of each...
[01:15:40.870 --> 01:15:42.540]  [SPEAKER_15]: Am I being too technical, ever?
[01:15:42.670 --> 01:15:43.670]  [SPEAKER_13]: No, no, this is all right.
[01:15:43.800 --> 01:15:59.350]  [SPEAKER_15]: If you think of each packet as a truck on a train, which has a destination, a unique destination, and the packet-switching network controls where that packet of information goes.
[01:15:59.350 --> 01:16:10.000]  [SPEAKER_15]: So, for example, when I dial into PeaceNet from my machine, I dial into a local telephone number, which gives me access to a dedicated telephone network, in this case called SprintNet.
[01:16:10.850 --> 01:16:19.800]  [SPEAKER_15]: And SprintNet has a unique address for what is the PeaceNet computer in California.
[01:16:20.540 --> 01:16:21.770]  [SPEAKER_15]: It has a number, actually.
[01:16:21.880 --> 01:16:22.390]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's just a number.
[01:16:22.390 --> 01:16:38.390]  [SPEAKER_15]: And when you dial in and you type in that number, it routes the information, the data you're sending from your computer, across this network, all the way over to California, to the computer sitting somewhere in San Francisco, which receives the call and accepts me.
[01:16:38.540 --> 01:16:52.200]  [SPEAKER_15]: And then I then have access to various aspects of all the information that are stored on either a hard disk or a bunch, a load of storage devices, hard disks, attached to the computer in California.
[01:16:52.390 --> 01:16:53.090]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay, Bill?
[01:16:53.350 --> 01:16:53.470]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah.
[01:16:53.470 --> 01:16:54.730]  [SPEAKER_13]: We have Howard on the line.
[01:16:54.920 --> 01:16:55.540]  [SPEAKER_13]: Oh, great.
[01:16:56.020 --> 01:16:56.760]  [SPEAKER_13]: Hello, Howard.
[01:16:56.840 --> 01:16:57.350]  [SPEAKER_13]: Are you with us?
[01:16:57.860 --> 01:16:58.880]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, I sure am.
[01:16:58.930 --> 01:16:59.500]  [SPEAKER_07]: Hey, Howard.
[01:16:59.660 --> 01:17:00.160]  [SPEAKER_07]: I'm in San Francisco.
[01:17:00.430 --> 01:17:01.170]  [SPEAKER_13]: Welcome, Howard.
[01:17:01.340 --> 01:17:06.350]  [SPEAKER_13]: We're now speaking with Howard Fredericks, who is the director of PeaceNet in San Francisco at the moment.
[01:17:08.200 --> 01:17:13.470]  [SPEAKER_13]: Bill has sort of been outlining a little bit about basics, about computers, and actually how they interconnect with each other.
[01:17:13.660 --> 01:17:26.210]  [SPEAKER_13]: This is a computer audience, by the way, tonight, but for the benefit of those who may have tuned in for the first time and have never heard about these uses of computers, I asked Bill to explain some of that.
[01:17:26.350 --> 01:17:27.960]  [SPEAKER_13]: I'll throw out some questions.
[01:17:28.550 --> 01:17:49.050]  [SPEAKER_13]: Howard, perhaps you can explain to our listening audience, I asked Bill the same question, why has it been, why have people in the peace movement, the progressive movement, been so slow in certain areas, perhaps in this country, to respond to the use of this technology?
[01:17:49.960 --> 01:17:58.210]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, that's a question I'd like to have the answer to myself, because most of the non-governmental organizations in the world are now computerized.
[01:17:58.210 --> 01:18:03.930]  [SPEAKER_14]: There's a huge movement of NGOs that is organizing NGO net.
[01:18:03.930 --> 01:18:10.970]  [SPEAKER_14]: They're moving and pushing in the non-aligned movement, in the United Nations, in UNESCO.
[01:18:11.810 --> 01:18:16.920]  [SPEAKER_14]: The forces for peace and democracy around the world are really seizing the technology.
[01:18:17.420 --> 01:18:28.210]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's an interesting dilemma, because a lot of the peace movement in the United States really is, at this point, not involved or not computerized.
[01:18:28.380 --> 01:18:30.000]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's happening more and more, though.
[01:18:30.170 --> 01:18:35.730]  [SPEAKER_14]: I should say that we've had a tremendous spurt in growth in the last two months.
[01:18:35.930 --> 01:18:40.350]  [SPEAKER_14]: Of course, the Gulf War, we had so much activity, it leveled off.
[01:18:40.500 --> 01:18:49.210]  [SPEAKER_14]: But since July, we've been going through an incredible growth stage, people seizing the technology and making it their own.
[01:18:49.210 --> 01:18:56.090]  [SPEAKER_14]: So, I don't know, it's a question of introducing new technologies into the society, on one sense.
[01:18:56.620 --> 01:18:58.700]  [SPEAKER_14]: And certainly the right wing knew what to do.
[01:18:58.850 --> 01:19:07.080]  [SPEAKER_14]: When you look back at Richard Vigery's mass mailing techniques around 1978, really brought on the whole era of Reaganism.
[01:19:07.600 --> 01:19:12.500]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's high time that the forces for peace and democracy also seized that technology.
[01:19:12.710 --> 01:19:15.200]  [SPEAKER_13]: Do you have any ideas, either of you, as to why?
[01:19:15.300 --> 01:19:17.350]  [SPEAKER_13]: We can talk about this briefly before we move on.
[01:19:17.350 --> 01:19:23.500]  [SPEAKER_13]: Because I think, in a way, perhaps some of our listeners might be suspicious of this technology.
[01:19:23.500 --> 01:19:35.630]  [SPEAKER_13]: And I'd like to know, why is it that those of us on the thinking progressive side would be suspicious of this technology, while, meanwhile, the right has made incredible, efficient use of it?
[01:19:36.000 --> 01:19:45.350]  [SPEAKER_13]: And we can see, I guess, the Gulf War was an example of the ultimate and very deadly use of technology, not for peace and justice, but...
[01:19:45.350 --> 01:19:48.200]  [SPEAKER_13]: And then go on to say, why is it and how is that changing?
[01:19:48.860 --> 01:19:50.350]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, let me have a crack at it.
[01:19:50.380 --> 01:19:52.730]  [SPEAKER_14]: I'm sure Bill's got some interesting comment on it, too.
[01:19:52.890 --> 01:19:53.880]  [SPEAKER_14]: I'm sure he does.
[01:19:54.170 --> 01:20:12.550]  [SPEAKER_14]: I mean, the basic point is that only in the last two to four years has the peace movement, and also the movements for environmental preservation, have... they now have the same tools that the government, military, intelligence, and transnational corporations have had for more than 20 years,
[01:20:12.840 --> 01:20:18.080]  [SPEAKER_14]: namely, the ability to communicate instantly, reliably, across large stretches of the globe.
[01:20:18.430 --> 01:20:25.760]  [SPEAKER_14]: And the fact is also that these technologies have been developed by and for the Defense Department.
[01:20:26.270 --> 01:20:30.510]  [SPEAKER_14]: However, these technologies have a decentralizing influence.
[01:20:30.840 --> 01:20:33.350]  [SPEAKER_14]: I mean, they're not inherently centralized.
[01:20:33.770 --> 01:20:39.620]  [SPEAKER_14]: So they've been taken up by people all over the world to be used for their own purposes.
[01:20:40.380 --> 01:20:45.920]  [SPEAKER_14]: So, I mean, if you're suspicious of computer networks, you should also be suspicious of the phone system.
[01:20:46.210 --> 01:20:51.340]  [SPEAKER_14]: My goodness, if you make a phone call, computer networks are just as secure as that.
[01:20:52.060 --> 01:20:52.540]  [SPEAKER_13]: Right.
[01:20:52.540 --> 01:21:01.420]  [SPEAKER_13]: And we had just a show on the hour before about how insecure those systems can be sometimes with a minor breakdown affecting, I guess, thousands, if not millions of people.
[01:21:02.380 --> 01:21:05.800]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, Howard, let's talk a little bit more.
[01:21:05.800 --> 01:21:12.040]  [SPEAKER_13]: But now, I should just back up and say that you're listening to 99.5 FM listener-sponsored, WBAI.
[01:21:12.160 --> 01:21:17.120]  [SPEAKER_13]: And this is part of our membership drive tonight, and tonight's special programming about information.
[01:21:18.580 --> 01:21:20.380]  [SPEAKER_13]: We're offering a premium of PeaceNet.
[01:21:20.540 --> 01:21:23.760]  [SPEAKER_13]: Now, I'm not quite sure a lot of people still don't understand what it is.
[01:21:23.810 --> 01:21:29.580]  [SPEAKER_13]: So when I say I'm offering a subscription, or the station is offering a subscription to PeaceNet, Howard, what do they get?
[01:21:30.260 --> 01:21:34.580]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, they'll get four free hours during the first month of user time.
[01:21:35.890 --> 01:21:40.420]  [SPEAKER_14]: And that's, you know, basically a $25 value.
[01:21:40.670 --> 01:21:42.660]  [SPEAKER_14]: We are a very inexpensive network.
[01:21:42.660 --> 01:21:51.630]  [SPEAKER_14]: We range from $3 to $10 an hour, and we try to keep it way below the commercial outfits that charge up to $96 an hour.
[01:21:52.650 --> 01:22:06.170]  [SPEAKER_14]: But at this point, if you do make a pledge to WBAI, we're offering during this period free connect time during the first month, so you can really go hog wild and try out the system.
[01:22:06.310 --> 01:22:09.580]  [SPEAKER_14]: And if you don't like it, you know, you can unsubscribe.
[01:22:09.970 --> 01:22:10.460]  [SPEAKER_13]: Unsubscribe.
[01:22:10.700 --> 01:22:14.920]  [SPEAKER_13]: And the number, by the way, is 212-279-3400.
[01:22:14.920 --> 01:22:17.670]  [SPEAKER_13]: That's 212-279-3400.
[01:22:17.670 --> 01:22:32.800]  [SPEAKER_13]: For those of you who are interested in the subscription to PeaceNet, to get online, to find out who else is out there, talking to each other, as Howard put it, information systems that span the globe are now not just in the hands of the huge corporations,
[01:22:32.800 --> 01:22:34.130]  [SPEAKER_13]: the information systems.
[01:22:34.130 --> 01:22:40.700]  [SPEAKER_13]: They're now in the hands of the powers of peace and social justice, to put it, I guess, that way.
[01:22:40.840 --> 01:22:44.880]  [SPEAKER_13]: But, Howard, tell us a little bit about PeaceNet itself.
[01:22:45.050 --> 01:22:46.230]  [SPEAKER_13]: What's on PeaceNet?
[01:22:46.260 --> 01:22:47.210]  [SPEAKER_13]: Who uses it?
[01:22:47.380 --> 01:22:48.300]  [SPEAKER_13]: How is it growing?
[01:22:48.620 --> 01:22:51.170]  [SPEAKER_13]: And how people actually use it to empower themselves.
[01:22:51.170 --> 01:23:00.510]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, we're connected to a number of networks around the world, like GreenNet in London, Pegasus in Australia, Brazil.
[01:23:01.010 --> 01:23:03.460]  [SPEAKER_14]: We have Glaznet in the Soviet Union.
[01:23:03.590 --> 01:23:04.760]  [SPEAKER_14]: That's Glaznos Network.
[01:23:05.430 --> 01:23:12.810]  [SPEAKER_14]: And all of these groups are advocacy organizations, campaigners, activists, non-governmental organizations.
[01:23:13.210 --> 01:23:13.960]  [SPEAKER_14]: So currently...
[01:23:13.960 --> 01:23:16.700]  [SPEAKER_14]: And we're also connected to about 60 other networks.
[01:23:16.700 --> 01:23:21.350]  [SPEAKER_14]: So if you have a correspondent on another network, you can, of course, write to her.
[01:23:21.510 --> 01:23:37.960]  [SPEAKER_14]: But our network comprises around 12,000 subscribers in 90 countries who comprise an honor list of the fields of human rights, environmental preservation, peace and conflict studies, and alternative news media.
[01:23:38.160 --> 01:23:42.310]  [SPEAKER_14]: We are the source for alternative news and information aside from Pacifica.
[01:23:42.310 --> 01:23:52.120]  [SPEAKER_14]: But we carry interpress service, women's feature service, Pacific news service, and about 15 or 20 other alternative news and information sources.
[01:23:52.350 --> 01:23:57.260]  [SPEAKER_14]: And that's part of our growth mode, is really the alternative news and information source.
[01:23:57.710 --> 01:24:01.040]  [SPEAKER_14]: People in New York City, of course, are lucky to have WBAI.
[01:24:01.260 --> 01:24:06.660]  [SPEAKER_14]: But, you know, in many parts of the country where Pacifica Signal doesn't reach, you have access to PeaceNet.
[01:24:06.660 --> 01:24:15.130]  [SPEAKER_14]: But that's why Tony Abregon from Costa Rica, the investigative reporter, he says, you know, PeaceNet and Pacifica, those are the two sources.
[01:24:16.000 --> 01:24:18.230]  [SPEAKER_14]: If you can get both, you're better off.
[01:24:18.620 --> 01:24:29.550]  [SPEAKER_13]: And, Howard, I'd like to say or announce to our listeners, we're kind of excited about this, but you're actually coming to our station here on Friday to teach us how to use PeaceNet so that we can get fully online.
[01:24:29.550 --> 01:24:34.550]  [SPEAKER_13]: We have used, through Bill Balls, actually, information off your system on previous programming.
[01:24:34.550 --> 01:24:47.130]  [SPEAKER_13]: But what we'd like to do is, of course, make it much more of a larger part of the information that we put out so that we can hopefully say that PeaceNet and Pacifica are indeed going to be sharing resources.
[01:24:47.130 --> 01:24:49.930]  [SPEAKER_13]: And hopefully that will happen on Friday.
[01:24:50.500 --> 01:25:00.420]  [SPEAKER_13]: And the number, again, is 212-279-3400 to become part of this ever-expanding communications entity known as WBAI Radio.
[01:25:00.630 --> 01:25:10.430]  [SPEAKER_14]: I should say that people need to have a computer and a modem at the beginning, and we'll provide them with the password and a user's manual, which is very user-friendly.
[01:25:10.760 --> 01:25:14.760]  [SPEAKER_14]: Anybody who can do word processing on a computer can certainly run our system.
[01:25:14.850 --> 01:25:18.080]  [SPEAKER_14]: There's really only about 15 basic commands that you need to know.
[01:25:18.350 --> 01:25:22.040]  [SPEAKER_14]: But you do need to have a computer and a modem hooked up to a telephone line.
[01:25:22.430 --> 01:25:25.760]  [SPEAKER_14]: And from there, it's a local phone call in New York.
[01:25:25.760 --> 01:25:30.050]  [SPEAKER_14]: And, in fact, it's a local phone call in 390 communities in the country.
[01:25:30.580 --> 01:25:35.670]  [SPEAKER_14]: And if you're traveling with a laptop, of course, you can connect to us from just about any part of the world.
[01:25:35.880 --> 01:25:43.300]  [SPEAKER_14]: You find, for example, Pacifica National Correspondent Larry Bensky travels all over with his laptop.
[01:25:43.550 --> 01:25:47.510]  [SPEAKER_14]: He's hosting the Gates hearings, and he's on PeaceNet every night.
[01:25:48.680 --> 01:25:50.300]  [SPEAKER_16]: This is Andrew Phillips, Howard.
[01:25:50.460 --> 01:25:50.880]  [SPEAKER_16]: How are you?
[01:25:51.090 --> 01:25:51.810]  [SPEAKER_14]: I'm okay.
[01:25:52.050 --> 01:25:52.580]  [SPEAKER_14]: Thank you, Andrew.
[01:25:52.800 --> 01:25:52.930]  [SPEAKER_16]: Good.
[01:25:53.010 --> 01:25:54.930]  [SPEAKER_16]: Looking forward to seeing you later in the week.
[01:25:55.050 --> 01:25:56.580]  [SPEAKER_16]: And, Bill, good evening to you.
[01:25:56.630 --> 01:25:57.310]  [SPEAKER_16]: Hey there, Andrew.
[01:25:57.390 --> 01:25:57.670]  [SPEAKER_16]: How are you doing?
[01:25:57.810 --> 01:25:58.170]  [SPEAKER_16]: On the bridge?
[01:25:58.960 --> 01:25:59.130]  [SPEAKER_16]: Okay.
[01:25:59.390 --> 01:26:02.310]  [SPEAKER_16]: We've got three people calling 279-3400.
[01:26:02.500 --> 01:26:04.540]  [SPEAKER_16]: I'm the straight man here.
[01:26:04.550 --> 01:26:12.470]  [SPEAKER_16]: I'm going to just real quickly tell people how they can get access to this pretty exciting premium that we're offering tonight.
[01:26:12.620 --> 01:26:15.080]  [SPEAKER_16]: Now, we have four people calling 279-3400.
[01:26:15.080 --> 01:26:28.660]  [SPEAKER_16]: And I want to just, in about two minutes, light this board up, encourage as many people as possible to give us a call, take advantage of this premium offer of a free subscription to PeaceNet and learn for yourselves how it works.
[01:26:28.760 --> 01:26:34.310]  [SPEAKER_16]: I know many people listening now tune in every Wednesday at this time for the personal computer show.
[01:26:34.620 --> 01:26:42.050]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, Dave, Hank, and Joe will be back next week for a two-hour special from 9 o'clock through 11 o'clock, so we can look forward to that.
[01:26:42.050 --> 01:26:49.160]  [SPEAKER_16]: But I'm sure many of you out there probably in your businesses may not yourselves be aware of PeaceNet.
[01:26:49.340 --> 01:26:51.670]  [SPEAKER_16]: I don't know if that's true, but try it out.
[01:26:51.800 --> 01:26:52.300]  [SPEAKER_16]: Give it a shot.
[01:26:52.430 --> 01:26:54.880]  [SPEAKER_16]: Give us a call at 279-3400.
[01:26:54.880 --> 01:26:57.260]  [SPEAKER_16]: Now, pledge $65 to WBAI.
[01:26:57.350 --> 01:26:59.760]  [SPEAKER_16]: You become a member of a listener-supported radio.
[01:26:59.760 --> 01:27:07.080]  [SPEAKER_16]: You help us do our work, the symbiotic relationship, as we say, and you get access to PeaceNet.
[01:27:07.230 --> 01:27:13.420]  [SPEAKER_16]: And that's a very exciting opportunity, I think, for many people to take advantage of right now, tonight.
[01:27:13.710 --> 01:27:17.660]  [SPEAKER_16]: 279-3400, it's tax-deductible, MasterCard or Visa.
[01:27:17.880 --> 01:27:22.040]  [SPEAKER_16]: If you can afford more, $100 maybe, or $250, that's great.
[01:27:22.230 --> 01:27:28.240]  [SPEAKER_16]: We want to push this tally up to $3,000 before we hit the rebroadcast of the evening news.
[01:27:28.380 --> 01:27:30.780]  [SPEAKER_16]: It's currently just a little bit over $2,000.
[01:27:31.000 --> 01:27:36.170]  [SPEAKER_16]: I think we've encouraged about 17 or 18 new subscribers since 8 o'clock this evening.
[01:27:36.170 --> 01:27:37.400]  [SPEAKER_16]: We were hoping to get 30.
[01:27:37.550 --> 01:27:38.940]  [SPEAKER_16]: I wonder if we can do it.
[01:27:40.300 --> 01:27:41.170]  [SPEAKER_16]: 279-3400.
[01:27:41.320 --> 01:27:44.130]  [SPEAKER_16]: Can we see just a couple more people calling us right now?
[01:27:44.260 --> 01:27:44.630]  [SPEAKER_16]: Thank you.
[01:27:44.740 --> 01:27:45.360]  [SPEAKER_16]: There's another call.
[01:27:45.480 --> 01:27:46.320]  [SPEAKER_16]: There's another call.
[01:27:46.550 --> 01:27:48.740]  [SPEAKER_16]: One more call, and we've got seven people calling.
[01:27:49.680 --> 01:27:50.550]  [SPEAKER_16]: 279-3400.
[01:27:50.740 --> 01:27:56.780]  [SPEAKER_16]: You can get the Hacker magazine, telephone magazine of Emmanuel Goldstein's, 2600.
[01:27:57.080 --> 01:28:03.460]  [SPEAKER_16]: And or you can get the PeaceNet subscription by calling us right now at 279-3400, Evelyn.
[01:28:03.460 --> 01:28:11.840]  [SPEAKER_14]: I should also say, Andrew, that we should also point out that by subscribing to PeaceNet, you have full access to Econet.
[01:28:11.960 --> 01:28:13.580]  [SPEAKER_14]: Or you can subscribe to Econet.
[01:28:14.540 --> 01:28:16.240]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's also on the same network.
[01:28:16.240 --> 01:28:20.400]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's more or less under the same umbrella.
[01:28:20.630 --> 01:28:34.800]  [SPEAKER_14]: So people who are into environmental preservation and sustainability, the green movement, toxics, the climate, the United Nations Conference on Environment and Development, all of these issues will find a home here, too.
[01:28:35.400 --> 01:28:41.590]  [SPEAKER_13]: All right, Howard and Bill, Dennis Law is also in the studio with us tonight, and I think he has some questions for you.
[01:28:42.050 --> 01:28:59.380]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, one of the things I wanted to point out and have you comment on is how environmental groups can save money by collaborating on projects over the net without having to move to some expensive city like Washington, D.C.
[01:29:00.240 --> 01:29:19.760]  [SPEAKER_01]: The Whole Earth Review last spring mentioned how a small organization like EarthTrust is, you know, much more efficient because it can make use of the network to work on reports and projects without having to spend a lot of money on such things as moving people and rent and things like that.
[01:29:19.760 --> 01:29:37.000]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's not a substitute for face-to-face communication, and that's, you know, it's important to remember, but you get a lot of business transacted over the network, whether it's writing proposals, inter-office memos, coordination strategy, agreeing on slogans.
[01:29:37.260 --> 01:29:44.660]  [SPEAKER_14]: You can send desktop publishing files back and forth around the world so they can be printed out.
[01:29:44.880 --> 01:29:53.400]  [SPEAKER_14]: There are a lot of organizations online, and I could just mention a few, for example, Amnesty International has about 200 accounts on our system.
[01:29:53.660 --> 01:30:05.340]  [SPEAKER_14]: Oxfam, the Rainforest Action Movement, the whole United Nations Conference on Environment and Development, a lot of it is being planned on the networks.
[01:30:05.550 --> 01:30:10.160]  [SPEAKER_14]: All of the preparatory committee meetings were online from Geneva.
[01:30:10.460 --> 01:30:17.050]  [SPEAKER_14]: The climate conference in Nairobi right now, all of its reports are appearing online.
[01:30:17.460 --> 01:30:28.740]  [SPEAKER_14]: For non-governmental, international actions, it's, you know, it's without peer and ability to share information and to communicate with like-minded people around the world.
[01:30:29.050 --> 01:30:50.050]  [SPEAKER_13]: Howard and or Bill, how has this subversive information network actually, can you, is there any way to measure the impact that it's had on, well, accumulating a little bit of power that for so long the people that have actually had these tools have been able to foist on the rest of us?
[01:30:50.300 --> 01:30:54.300]  [SPEAKER_13]: How, is there any perceptive, you know, change, tangible change that you've been able to...
[01:30:54.300 --> 01:30:55.800]  [SPEAKER_15]: Can I say something here?
[01:30:56.020 --> 01:30:56.170]  [SPEAKER_13]: Go ahead, Bill.
[01:30:57.900 --> 01:31:02.630]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, that is, if anything, is the weak link of all technologies.
[01:31:04.100 --> 01:31:21.760]  [SPEAKER_15]: The, I think, PeaceNet and other networks work extremely well on the basis of coordinating and collaborating on projects of one kind or another where, where the information can remain essentially during that process of exchange in its electronic format.
[01:31:21.980 --> 01:31:37.170]  [SPEAKER_15]: For example, you remember the American Peace Test, Evelyn, the guy that we had on the show, talking about how he organized or helped facilitate a nationwide campaign around nuclear tests.
[01:31:37.320 --> 01:31:40.380]  [SPEAKER_15]: And in fact, the entire structure was totally distributed.
[01:31:40.760 --> 01:31:44.780]  [SPEAKER_15]: The person who looked after the money might be in one place.
[01:31:45.240 --> 01:31:48.700]  [SPEAKER_15]: The person developing propaganda might be in another place.
[01:31:48.700 --> 01:31:53.920]  [SPEAKER_15]: The person controlling or organizing, facilitating networking might be in another place.
[01:31:54.080 --> 01:32:09.050]  [SPEAKER_15]: Where, of course, ultimately, if we're talking about moving beyond organization, is how do you get that out to the average person on the street who may be concerned about these kinds of things and everything, but they want to get their information in a different format.
[01:32:09.200 --> 01:32:11.920]  [SPEAKER_15]: Now, normally, they'll get it from television or get it from the newspapers.
[01:32:12.960 --> 01:32:18.420]  [SPEAKER_15]: And I feel that at some point or other that information has got to grow out of that.
[01:32:18.580 --> 01:32:24.130]  [SPEAKER_15]: But in the meantime, what's got to be established is this network of information collection.
[01:32:24.630 --> 01:32:27.820]  [SPEAKER_15]: And that's what PeaceNet, along with all the other networks, is doing.
[01:32:28.020 --> 01:32:29.590]  [SPEAKER_15]: Is that we're...
[01:32:30.400 --> 01:32:42.740]  [SPEAKER_15]: I suppose, in a sense, you can describe it as a critical mass of information that I think at some point or other will burst out of the confines of the network into the broader community.
[01:32:43.210 --> 01:32:45.400]  [SPEAKER_15]: And I think this is where the real struggle is.
[01:32:45.480 --> 01:33:05.380]  [SPEAKER_15]: And this is why it's so crucial that people who care about social justice issues or care about where the world's headed for and who's controlling it and so on and so forth, this is where it's really crucial to get them involved because there's a struggle going on between the cooperations who want to control our culture,
[01:33:05.590 --> 01:33:13.800]  [SPEAKER_15]: privatize it, for example, and use this technology to co-operatize and privatize things like libraries and so on and so on and so forth.
[01:33:14.420 --> 01:33:26.590]  [SPEAKER_15]: And there's, yeah, a relatively small band of hardy folk, as it were, who are attempting to take the same technology and turn it round on itself, as it were.
[01:33:26.740 --> 01:33:30.880]  [SPEAKER_15]: I think Howard mentioned earlier has this capacity to be all of these different things.
[01:33:31.120 --> 01:33:34.240]  [SPEAKER_15]: It can work for reaction or it can work for progress.
[01:33:35.160 --> 01:33:48.630]  [SPEAKER_15]: So I think that the real thing here is getting all of these groups, all the people with the crucial information, like I mentioned Tony Avogand, there's a whole range of journalists and writers and researchers who are using this network to collect information,
[01:33:48.800 --> 01:34:01.620]  [SPEAKER_15]: to use the tools, for example, to discover new relationships between information that only computer tools could give you by, for example, doing searches and seeing, well, who's this guy and so-and-so.
[01:34:01.900 --> 01:34:27.170]  [SPEAKER_15]: I think, for example, a great project for networkers, as it were, to be getting involved in would be the BCCI scandal, which is global in scope and intricate, even when it's in one country, where amalgamating vast amounts of different kinds of information together from all these disparate sources and searching through it and so forth,
[01:34:27.170 --> 01:34:36.130]  [SPEAKER_15]: is the kind of project that PeaceNet and all the other members of the PeaceNet fraternity is ideally suited to do.
[01:34:36.300 --> 01:34:49.380]  [SPEAKER_15]: This is something that up until now I think has been the exclusive domain, as you say, as Howard mentioned, of people like Richard Vigery with millions of dollars at their disposal of a state or transnational corporations.
[01:34:49.710 --> 01:34:52.380]  [SPEAKER_15]: So I think that's the direction we're headed in.
[01:34:52.520 --> 01:34:53.940]  [SPEAKER_13]: This is Evelyn Telecosta.
[01:34:54.120 --> 01:35:00.940]  [SPEAKER_13]: Bill, do you, is there a conference for the BCCI scandal on PeaceNet?
[01:35:01.260 --> 01:35:03.820]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, no, I don't think there is, is there, Howard?
[01:35:04.590 --> 01:35:05.360]  [SPEAKER_15]: Not per se.
[01:35:05.940 --> 01:35:17.740]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, you find it in the Christic Institute's conference, you find it in the Nicaragua conference, you find it in the conferences on finance in Europe, you know...
[01:35:17.740 --> 01:35:19.090]  [SPEAKER_15]: It pops up all over the place.
[01:35:19.280 --> 01:35:19.460]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah.
[01:35:20.240 --> 01:35:20.630]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay.
[01:35:21.160 --> 01:35:37.620]  [SPEAKER_15]: You see, that's a perfect example is that you, and this is exactly what's been happening in fact, is that somebody will be reading, let's say, I started getting really good information out of a conference, a Guatemala conference on PeaceNet, where there's one news agency called Surigua,
[01:35:38.700 --> 01:35:55.580]  [SPEAKER_15]: which is a news agency which has basically been focusing on human rights and the military and social and political economic situation in Guatemala, suddenly found itself literally in the middle of the BCCI scandal because of the global nature of BCCI.
[01:35:55.820 --> 01:36:09.000]  [SPEAKER_15]: And so, what started out as one investigation into abuses and murder and torture and corruption by the Guatemalan military suddenly found itself globalized by the nature of the BCCI process.
[01:36:09.000 --> 01:36:33.020]  [SPEAKER_15]: and hence suddenly you find the Perez de Cuellar is involved, the French president is involved, the former Peruvian president, Garcia, is involved, the current Bolivian president, you know, cascading out and out and out as the ripples of this particular process unfold and are revealed by all these various investigators.
[01:36:33.210 --> 01:36:44.500]  [SPEAKER_13]: And speaking of rippling out, the interactions between PeaceNet, for instance, and Pacifica, for instance, which is something we've been, I guess, struggling to achieve with some of the stations.
[01:36:44.700 --> 01:36:47.000]  [SPEAKER_13]: Howard, what about other news outlets?
[01:36:47.660 --> 01:36:55.860]  [SPEAKER_13]: I know that we've been having some trouble with Pacifica, but I think we're finally getting to a point now where we will be an outlet for PeaceNet over the airwaves.
[01:36:55.920 --> 01:36:59.340]  [SPEAKER_13]: And that's one, I guess, example of interaction between the technologies.
[01:36:59.860 --> 01:37:15.900]  [SPEAKER_13]: Has there been any interest in mainstream media outlets in using PeaceNet as an information Well, I mean, we do have subscriber and the Christian Science Monitor and the CNN and the Los Angeles Times, crusading reporters.
[01:37:17.670 --> 01:37:21.000]  [SPEAKER_14]: But, you know, our forte is with the alternative press.
[01:37:21.280 --> 01:37:25.440]  [SPEAKER_14]: We have more than 100 alternative weekly newspapers online.
[01:37:26.300 --> 01:37:31.400]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's called the Association of Alternative News Weeklies and they have their own press service.
[01:37:31.980 --> 01:37:49.580]  [SPEAKER_14]: In northwestern California, in Humboldt and Mendocino County, for example, there's a little press service called Ecotopia News, which is composed of 13 media outlets, community papers, and radio stations that swap articles on the drug war, the federal drug troops up there,
[01:37:49.710 --> 01:37:54.090]  [SPEAKER_14]: as well as the forest struggles with Earth First, et cetera.
[01:37:54.090 --> 01:37:56.000]  [SPEAKER_14]: So these things are springing up.
[01:37:56.360 --> 01:38:11.080]  [SPEAKER_14]: I guess your previous question, what I wanted to say on that was that we're really, it's only been since really June of 1989 when these networks have had a far-reaching effect on international politics.
[01:38:11.090 --> 01:38:15.040]  [SPEAKER_14]: And I'm talking about the Tiananmen Square incident massacre in Beijing.
[01:38:15.340 --> 01:38:29.800]  [SPEAKER_14]: This is the first time where these decentralized computer and communications technologies, like fax machines and even the telephone and computer networks, were able to mobilize an entire opposition movement overnight.
[01:38:30.360 --> 01:38:37.960]  [SPEAKER_14]: And the Gulf War this year was really only the second or third incident where we've really had these tools in place.
[01:38:38.210 --> 01:38:41.260]  [SPEAKER_14]: The Soviet crisis, we were totally mobilized.
[01:38:41.460 --> 01:38:47.710]  [SPEAKER_14]: In fact, we were getting reports out of Moscow and Leningrad through BBSs in Estonia.
[01:38:47.980 --> 01:38:57.020]  [SPEAKER_14]: For example, Northwest News Service in Leningrad was sending us stuff through Estonia, Sweden, Britain, and it was saying the tanks are coming to the White House.
[01:38:57.020 --> 01:39:00.630]  [SPEAKER_14]: I'm standing in front of a White House window in Moscow and the tanks are approaching.
[01:39:00.880 --> 01:39:08.960]  [SPEAKER_14]: We had that kind of contact, that kind of live contact, that, you know, is so important when an event breaks.
[01:39:09.050 --> 01:39:20.360]  [SPEAKER_14]: So when the next event happens, God forbid it should be a pretext to encircle Cuba with a naval blockade to interdict drugs or whatever it might be.
[01:39:20.980 --> 01:39:29.590]  [SPEAKER_14]: Throughout, you know, Central America and the Caribbean, we have users, monitors, and journalists who can report to us.
[01:39:30.210 --> 01:39:33.940]  [SPEAKER_13]: Isn't there now a link with PeaceNet and Cuba for the first time?
[01:39:34.050 --> 01:39:36.800]  [SPEAKER_13]: You announced that at the computers for social teams.
[01:39:37.610 --> 01:39:46.240]  [SPEAKER_14]: until the money ran out from the United Nations, and we're now looking to raise money from a foundation in order to pay for that connection again.
[01:39:47.170 --> 01:39:49.960]  [SPEAKER_14]: Technologically, it's possible, and we demonstrated it.
[01:39:51.670 --> 01:39:54.200]  [SPEAKER_14]: Financially, we have to work on supporting it.
[01:39:54.360 --> 01:40:12.590]  [SPEAKER_13]: And speaking of finances and support, that's a perfect segue, this is part of a WBAI special information night on computers, PeaceNet, environmentalism, activism, how these technologies are finally coming around slowly and being used against, I suppose,
[01:40:12.800 --> 01:40:22.420]  [SPEAKER_13]: the very entities, the corporations that created them, and hopefully to make the world a little bit easier to deal with and some of the problems that we're facing.
[01:40:22.780 --> 01:40:37.630]  [SPEAKER_13]: We have on the line with us Howard Fredericks from San Francisco, who's the director of PeaceNet, Bill Bowles, who is, I guess, a computer activist who lives in Brooklyn, who also has his own computer network, and in the studio is Dennis Law, who's also an environmental computer activist.
[01:40:38.160 --> 01:40:51.860]  [SPEAKER_13]: But what we're going to ask you to do now is go over to the phone and dial 212-279-3400 and become a radio activist here at station 99.5 WBAI.
[01:40:52.020 --> 01:41:01.000]  [SPEAKER_13]: We depend on your support to keep this kind of conversation going, which I'm not sure really takes place over airwaves in too many other places other than Pacifica.
[01:41:01.000 --> 01:41:07.200]  [SPEAKER_16]: You know, we got a real good flurry of calls just a few minutes ago, and that's great.
[01:41:07.620 --> 01:41:11.130]  [SPEAKER_16]: Just very briefly, let me run down what this is about.
[01:41:12.090 --> 01:41:20.420]  [SPEAKER_16]: As Howard's been speaking and Bill has been speaking with Evelyn about these subjects, you called and obviously were interested.
[01:41:20.590 --> 01:41:35.320]  [SPEAKER_16]: And I think if you want to learn more about this and get access to PeaceNet yourselves, and I know many of you have computers who listen at this time, you can do that by taking out a $65 subscription to WBAI and calling us at 279-3400.
[01:41:35.320 --> 01:41:36.820]  [SPEAKER_16]: It is tax-deductible.
[01:41:37.380 --> 01:41:38.940]  [SPEAKER_16]: MasterCard or Visa is fine.
[01:41:38.940 --> 01:41:40.550]  [SPEAKER_16]: We have volunteers standing by.
[01:41:41.020 --> 01:41:42.400]  [SPEAKER_16]: We've done pretty well tonight.
[01:41:42.580 --> 01:41:44.210]  [SPEAKER_16]: We're at about 2,000...
[01:41:44.210 --> 01:41:46.540]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, I don't think it's been tallied since the last round.
[01:41:46.670 --> 01:41:57.840]  [SPEAKER_16]: But if we can get, ooh, about 10 people, I guess, in the remaining 12 minutes or so to call us here at 279-3400, I think that we can meet our goal tonight.
[01:41:57.860 --> 01:42:04.980]  [SPEAKER_16]: It will have been a successful night and tells us something about the need for our radio station to deal more in these kind of subjects.
[01:42:05.210 --> 01:42:07.480]  [SPEAKER_16]: And we'll be very happy to do that.
[01:42:07.550 --> 01:42:10.630]  [SPEAKER_16]: But we really need to see these lights light up here.
[01:42:10.840 --> 01:42:14.380]  [SPEAKER_16]: And you can do that by calling us at 279-3400.
[01:42:14.630 --> 01:42:16.280]  [SPEAKER_16]: 1212-279-3400.
[01:42:16.360 --> 01:42:17.050]  [SPEAKER_16]: There's nobody calling.
[01:42:17.260 --> 01:42:30.840]  [SPEAKER_16]: Can we see the first person call for the $65 subscription to PeaceNet, a free subscription, so you yourself can get to learn about the kinds of things that Howard Fredericks has been speaking about this evening.
[01:42:30.980 --> 01:42:33.300]  [SPEAKER_16]: There's nobody calling 279-3400.
[01:42:33.800 --> 01:42:36.080]  [SPEAKER_16]: 1212-279-3400.
[01:42:37.210 --> 01:42:38.260]  [SPEAKER_16]: 279-3400.
[01:42:38.550 --> 01:42:40.120]  [SPEAKER_16]: There's one person calling.
[01:42:40.280 --> 01:42:41.020]  [SPEAKER_16]: Can we see another?
[01:42:41.200 --> 01:42:42.420]  [SPEAKER_16]: There's two people calling.
[01:42:42.630 --> 01:42:43.980]  [SPEAKER_16]: 279-3400.
[01:42:44.210 --> 01:42:49.960]  [SPEAKER_16]: Let's just spend a couple of minutes before we go back to the real matter of this program.
[01:42:50.280 --> 01:42:51.060]  [SPEAKER_16]: 279-3400.
[01:42:51.050 --> 01:42:56.000]  [SPEAKER_16]: 279-3400, because I'm sure that Dennis has a couple of things he might like to ask.
[01:42:56.420 --> 01:42:57.620]  [SPEAKER_16]: 279-3400.
[01:42:57.780 --> 01:42:58.860]  [SPEAKER_16]: There are four people calling.
[01:42:59.040 --> 01:42:59.440]  [SPEAKER_16]: Thank you.
[01:42:59.520 --> 01:43:00.050]  [SPEAKER_16]: That's great.
[01:43:00.300 --> 01:43:02.380]  [SPEAKER_16]: We can take three more phone calls.