Off The Hook - 1991-10-02

[00:03.280 --> 00:04.080]  [SPEAKER_02]: Washington, D.C.
[00:33.840 --> 00:39.680]  [SPEAKER_00]: On October 7th, the Supreme Court of the United States will open its fall session in Washington, D.C.
[00:39.940 --> 00:55.020]  [SPEAKER_00]: If you agree that the court is packed with conservatives who keep handing down decisions that are seriously threatening the civil liberties of all Americans, then you may want to join Refuse and Resist for the October Surprise, a day of speaking out and protesting through a march,
[00:55.200 --> 00:58.560]  [SPEAKER_00]: a rally, and street theater at the Supreme Court in Washington, D.C.
[00:58.560 --> 01:10.260]  [SPEAKER_00]: For more information about the October Surprise on October 7th, or for information about transportation to Washington, D.C., call 212-340-4173.
[01:10.540 --> 01:17.600]  [SPEAKER_00]: This has been a public service announcement of WBAI on behalf of Refuse and Resist, a non-for-profit organization.
[01:22.910 --> 01:25.930]  [SPEAKER_01]: And this is WBAI in New York.
[01:26.350 --> 01:28.930]  [SPEAKER_01]: Stay tuned now for Off the Hook.
[02:53.820 --> 02:55.460]  [SPEAKER_01]: And the program is Off the Hook tonight.
[02:55.460 --> 02:57.600]  [SPEAKER_01]: Tonight we're going to be talking about Caller ID.
[02:58.560 --> 03:00.640]  [SPEAKER_01]: So if you have it, call us.
[03:00.760 --> 03:02.180]  [SPEAKER_01]: If you don't have it, call us.
[03:02.340 --> 03:05.780]  [SPEAKER_01]: We'll be answering some questions and raising a few of our own.
[03:06.180 --> 03:06.740]  [SPEAKER_01]: Stay tuned.
[03:06.880 --> 03:34.560]  [SPEAKER_02]: A cost of thousands and a few of one Two million tickets, the West was won They rode by moonlight, ropes white they wore With guns and Bible, and a castle store Black and white and silent, nation went to war Black and white and violent, a lot to answer for
[03:43.930 --> 04:05.690]  [SPEAKER_02]: Ain't like a courthouse and a hanging tree There's bands of theater, where it used to be We're making a movie, we're making a movie We're making a movie, we're hanging up on guns In between the eyes, the West was won Black and white and silent, nation
[04:39.670 --> 05:02.090]  [SPEAKER_02]: A cost of thousands and a few of some Millions of tickets, the West is won The legend of tinsel town, paper, blood, and stars Wood from the hanging tree, built cinemas Black and white and silent, nation,
[05:14.750 --> 05:34.090]  [SPEAKER_10]: violent, a lot to answer for In a movie era, then I look like me Pure pure face, kill off everybody African, Indian, with the Apache Even for the alien, like beauty In a cartoon, Tom, kill off Jerry Her pure black legs, it's all your country She look like the male,
[05:34.110 --> 05:45.550]  [SPEAKER_02]: I take your outdoor artery Her fire, toe, shot, but the man's finally Nation went to war A lot to answer for
[05:56.300 --> 06:20.020]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we've got a lot to answer for That's music from Screaming Target Music that has, in effect, been banned from this country But if you go to England, you can pick up their record Screaming Target, former members of Big Audio Dynamite Except for Mick Jones And The record is called Hometown Hi-Fi This track is Blood and Stars
[06:23.570 --> 06:45.510]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now you might find it as an import someplace, I suppose Don Letts and Company Here On WBAI The program is Off The Hook And that's about all the music we're going to be taking care of tonight Because we have important details to attend to Something that will no doubt be affecting all of us In fact,
[06:45.710 --> 07:02.310]  [SPEAKER_01]: I guess I say that every week when we do this show about technology And emerging things on your telephone and computer They do affect us all Somehow, in some way But this particular thing is going to be affecting us dramatically It's going to change the rules,
[07:02.390 --> 07:24.770]  [SPEAKER_01]: so to say When you pick up the telephone and make a phone call Right now, we have certain assumptions when we do that When we pick up the phone and call somebody The phone rings, they pick it up, say hello, and we identify ourselves But we no longer have to do that At least we won't have to in the future If all the phone companies get their way When we call somebody,
[07:25.010 --> 07:40.950]  [SPEAKER_01]: they'll know before they pick up the receiver Who we are Or at least what number we're calling from Now, there have been quite a few developments on this In the past few weeks You may not have heard too much about it in the newspapers But if you keep your eyes open,
[07:41.050 --> 08:00.230]  [SPEAKER_01]: you'll hear a thing or two One rather disturbing development came from the Federal Communications Commission In fact, nothing but disturbing developments seem to come from the Federal Communications Commission lately But this one had to do with interstate telecommunications And in this particular case,
[08:00.350 --> 08:22.650]  [SPEAKER_01]: the FCC sided once again with the phone companies Recommending that phone companies not provide a service known as all-call blocking Now, what all-call blocking is It's a service provided to customers who can get caller ID And that service allows you to get your phone off that system In other words,
[08:22.750 --> 08:41.670]  [SPEAKER_01]: every time you pick up the phone and call somebody The default setting will be to not transmit your number That will be how you are seen in the network Now, what the phone companies want to do They don't want to provide that service They only want to provide what is known as per-call blocking In other words,
[08:41.750 --> 09:06.070]  [SPEAKER_01]: you'll have to dial a specific code Before every call you make And you'll have to consciously say to yourself I do not want my number to be transmitted Every time you make a call And that's the only kind of call blocking they wish to offer The FCC last week agreed with that And said phone companies should not have to do that Now,
[09:06.290 --> 09:33.610]  [SPEAKER_01]: Governor Mario Cuomo on Friday, last Friday Vetoed a bill that would have set standards for a caller ID plan And that will allow the State Public Service Commission To proceed with hearings on the controversial proposal Now, reading from an article in Newsday dated this Saturday Caller ID displays the phone number of the person calling on the receiver's telephone And much of the controversy,
[09:33.790 --> 09:57.190]  [SPEAKER_01]: as we have said, involves how callers could prevent their numbers from being displayed Now, the bill which has been introduced by Assemblyman Gerald Nadler Who is a Democrat right here in Manhattan And backed by New York Telephone Proposed free per-call blocking and per-line blocking at a one-time charge Per-call blocking means that if callers want to prevent their numbers from being displayed at
[09:57.190 --> 10:18.110]  [SPEAKER_01]: the other end They would have to press star six seven each time they make a call That's the special command that you would have to issue every time you made a call, star six seven State Consumer Protection Board Executive Director Richard Kessel Who asked Cuomo to veto the bill Wants consumers to be able to block their phone line once and forever For free,
[10:18.270 --> 10:38.770]  [SPEAKER_01]: known as per-line blocking Or as we've been referring to it All-call blocking, I believe is one of the other terms Caller ID is now being offered in eleven states New Jersey is one of them I'd love to hear some people over there in New Jersey Tell us how Caller ID is working out for you And how it's not working out And various other things you might be able to fill us in on Because this is
[10:38.770 --> 10:39.630]  [SPEAKER_01]: something that...
[10:40.130 --> 10:57.910]  [SPEAKER_01]: Being here in New York It's a new technology We can't play with it yet We want to be able to play with it But it's just not at that stage yet Now, don't get me wrong I like playing with new kinds of technology And this might be kind of interesting to have around But when you force it down somebody's throat Oh,
[10:57.950 --> 11:17.870]  [SPEAKER_01]: that's the difference That is the difference And if you look at these telephone company commercials We get the Bell Atlantic commercials here Because we're next to New Jersey They make it seem as if you're going to be murdered in your sleep If you don't get Caller ID Because there won't be any way to identify all these crazy people out there That are always calling you Now,
[11:17.950 --> 11:18.890]  [SPEAKER_01]: I ask you...
[11:18.890 --> 11:21.470]  [SPEAKER_01]: How much of a problem has it really been?
[11:21.670 --> 11:33.690]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we all get annoying phone calls now and then We all get that occasional crank Sometimes we even get obscene phone calls But do we really live our lives in fear So that we want to know every time that phone rings Who's on the other end?
[11:33.950 --> 11:39.590]  [SPEAKER_01]: Do we really want to lose that certain element of privacy?
[11:39.750 --> 12:05.150]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I say this because it's something we've grown accustomed to Now, yeah, we don't have anything to hide when we call our friend and say You know, it's me on the phone We don't have anything to hide for the most part But there are those occasions where you don't want to be identified Where you're calling another auto mechanic from your loyal auto mechanic You don't want to be seen as the person
[12:05.150 --> 12:12.770]  [SPEAKER_01]: calling somebody else You know, sometimes you want to do things on the telephone And they can't see you So why should they be able to know who you are?
[12:12.970 --> 12:40.190]  [SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't mean you're up to no good It just means you don't want to identify yourself There's nothing wrong with that However, after looking at these Bell TV commercials And after seeing how caller ID is being thrown into our faces And having been told that every time you want to remain private You're going to have to dial star six seven Then all of a sudden Each time we decide to do this It's
[12:40.190 --> 13:03.990]  [SPEAKER_01]: kind of like we're committing a little crime You know, it's kind of like we're We're trying to hide something Even though we're not hiding something We're being made to feel guilty For wanting to remain anonymous Now there's nothing at all wrong with being anonymous Being anonymous is not synonymous with Being guilty of something Or being sneaky It just means you value your privacy Up until now,
[13:04.130 --> 13:28.830]  [SPEAKER_01]: we've had plenty of privacy on the telephone We're able to, say, call a radio talk show As we're asking people to do now 279-3400, area code 212 I don't know who you are I don't know where you're calling from And I don't want to know It's none of my business But with caller ID I'll be able to find out your phone number And your name on top of that Because the two are pretty much synonymous these
[13:28.830 --> 13:39.930]  [SPEAKER_01]: days And we can just keep going from that point on And find out all kinds of neat little things Now, think twice about this Is this the kind of service you really want?
[13:40.110 --> 14:00.910]  [SPEAKER_01]: I think caller ID can be used for very beneficial purposes I think people, lots of times, will want to announce their presence Before the phone is picked up But to force it down people's throats And to say, we have to have this for the good of society Because if we don't have it The telephone is going to erupt in anarchy You're going to get nothing but obscene phone callers And people trying to
[14:00.910 --> 14:26.710]  [SPEAKER_01]: sell you things you don't want And rip off your money and all that kind of thing To say that, you know, it's making everybody afraid It's putting that element of fear into it My opinion Is that the only reason the phone company is so into this Is because It's a money maker And I can prove this too Latest issue of 2600 Just came out Okay,
[14:26.870 --> 14:50.490]  [SPEAKER_01]: it's a summer issue And it's autumn We know that It's late We're going to try to get the autumn issue out before winter There is an article in here We entitled it The CLASS Struggle Because these caller ID things are part of CLASS service in many places And CLASS stands for something I don't know what the initials stand for But it's one of those neat little phone company things Okay,
[14:50.630 --> 15:07.150]  [SPEAKER_01]: first paragraph here This is from some internal documents That were forwarded to us Internal Bellcore documents Very simple here The definition of caller ID What is caller ID?
[15:07.510 --> 15:18.070]  [SPEAKER_01]: Here we go Bellcore definition Caller ID Is referred to here as calling number delivery Which is another initial thing there CND Okay?
[15:18.570 --> 15:47.970]  [SPEAKER_01]: Calling number delivery CND is a revenue producing service Intended for residential and business telephone customers A revenue producing service That is it in a nutshell Now of course They are going to make money on anything they do No matter what it is But It's primarily there To produce revenue Don't forget that That's what it's all about That's what the phone company is in this for To make
[15:47.970 --> 16:12.450]  [SPEAKER_01]: money That's why they still charge you for Touch-Tones When there is absolutely nothing to charge you for Revenue producing service Now, look upon it in that light, and then see why the phone companies are so intense in their arguments to get people to not use all-call blocking,
[16:12.570 --> 16:14.430]  [SPEAKER_01]: but only per-line blocking.
[16:15.090 --> 16:21.330]  [SPEAKER_01]: If all-call blocking were available to everybody for free, well, would you take it?
[16:21.730 --> 16:24.530]  [SPEAKER_01]: Would you opt to have your number be private?
[16:24.790 --> 16:28.550]  [SPEAKER_01]: Or would you opt to have your number displayed every time you call someplace?
[16:28.550 --> 16:32.390]  [SPEAKER_01]: You'd probably go for the privacy function, because you value privacy.
[16:33.150 --> 16:35.390]  [SPEAKER_01]: If not, other people would.
[16:35.830 --> 16:41.290]  [SPEAKER_01]: The more people that do, the less money New York Telephone will make.
[16:42.350 --> 16:53.170]  [SPEAKER_01]: Because, A, less people will be using the service, and B, the people that look at the phone numbers, that come across their screen, will see more private numbers than anything.
[16:53.290 --> 16:57.150]  [SPEAKER_01]: They'll just see little Ps for private, meaning the person doesn't want to say who they are.
[16:58.450 --> 17:12.590]  [SPEAKER_01]: And if people cannot block their numbers unless they dial that special code, star 6-7, well, some of them are going to forget, some of them just will not do it, and some of them will say, who cares, I'll let my number be transmitted.
[17:12.970 --> 17:15.390]  [SPEAKER_01]: And they'll accept the fact that it's been rammed down their throat.
[17:15.890 --> 17:24.510]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, more numbers will show up on the caller ID screen, and the person subscribing to caller ID will say, hey, this service works, I can see the phone numbers.
[17:26.170 --> 17:27.550]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's really what it's all about.
[17:28.370 --> 17:31.790]  [SPEAKER_01]: If less people get it, the service is not valuable.
[17:31.790 --> 17:38.150]  [SPEAKER_01]: If more people are forced to participate, then the service pays off.
[17:40.370 --> 17:47.670]  [SPEAKER_01]: $6.75 a month for every customer that subscribes to that, I believe, is the cost.
[17:48.990 --> 18:00.650]  [SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, we should applaud Governor Cuomo for vetoing that bill, I believe, because it enables the public, the general public out there, to speak out a little bit more on this issue.
[18:00.650 --> 18:05.010]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't see how that can be a bad thing, no matter where this all ends up.
[18:06.430 --> 18:27.190]  [SPEAKER_01]: Mario Cuomo said he vetoed the bill to allow the public a fuller opportunity to be heard, and the Public Service Commission is holding hearings on the company's plan, and Administrative Law Judge John Bernieu is expected to make a recommendation by year's end for a PSC vote early next year.
[18:27.990 --> 18:35.870]  [SPEAKER_01]: The Federal Communications Commission this week, or actually last week, recommended per-call blocking and rejected per-line blocking.
[18:35.910 --> 18:39.990]  [SPEAKER_01]: I guess it's probably easier if we use the same terminology here, so we'll call it per-line blocking.
[18:40.670 --> 18:43.550]  [SPEAKER_01]: The FCC controls long-distance service.
[18:43.930 --> 18:45.790]  [SPEAKER_01]: States regulate usage within their boundaries.
[18:45.790 --> 18:58.050]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, at the moment, that FCC action really won't affect us within the state of New York, but it will affect things going from state to state.
[18:58.690 --> 19:00.470]  [SPEAKER_01]: And we're not quite sure how yet.
[19:00.670 --> 19:01.870]  [SPEAKER_01]: We're still looking into that.
[19:03.010 --> 19:04.730]  [SPEAKER_01]: 212-279-3400.
[19:04.850 --> 19:08.870]  [SPEAKER_01]: The question we're asking is, do you think Caller ID is a good idea?
[19:09.110 --> 19:10.670]  [SPEAKER_01]: Do you subscribe to Caller ID?
[19:10.670 --> 19:14.870]  [SPEAKER_01]: And if it's available in the future in your area, will you subscribe to it?
[19:15.010 --> 19:17.690]  [SPEAKER_01]: Or will you elect to remain private?
[19:18.050 --> 19:19.770]  [SPEAKER_01]: 212-279-3400.
[19:19.970 --> 19:20.650]  [SPEAKER_01]: Good evening.
[19:21.030 --> 19:21.830]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, yeah, hi.
[19:21.990 --> 19:22.370]  [SPEAKER_06]: How are you doing?
[19:23.030 --> 19:30.170]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, I don't, you know, I don't particularly see all that much wrong with Caller ID.
[19:32.070 --> 19:35.790]  [SPEAKER_06]: Personally, you know, it's someone calling me.
[19:36.130 --> 19:47.070]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, as much as Caller ID is an invasion of the privacy of the person calling, someone calling me is an invasion of my privacy.
[19:47.630 --> 19:53.470]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I mean, do you look on all your phone calls as an invasion of your privacy, or just the phone ringing, find out who it is?
[19:55.150 --> 19:55.550]  Um...
[19:55.550 --> 19:59.870]  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, how many times do you pick up the phone and you don't know who it is after you've started talking?
[20:00.690 --> 20:02.250]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, not very often.
[20:02.810 --> 20:03.070]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh-huh.
[20:03.450 --> 20:05.850]  [SPEAKER_01]: You see, I would support a bill...
[20:05.850 --> 20:06.650]  [SPEAKER_01]: How about this?
[20:06.810 --> 20:11.910]  [SPEAKER_01]: A bill that says all businesses have to send their number when they're calling.
[20:12.010 --> 20:16.970]  [SPEAKER_01]: That way, all those marketing things that you get, those things will identify themselves.
[20:17.210 --> 20:21.190]  [SPEAKER_01]: I can't think of an application for a business calling somebody anonymously.
[20:21.390 --> 20:26.350]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, you know, those are the times, you know, when I usually feel that my privacy is being violated.
[20:26.350 --> 20:35.110]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'm just sitting down to have some dinner, and all those marketing nimrods, they all know that, you know, that that's the perfect time to call.
[20:35.450 --> 20:39.030]  [SPEAKER_01]: But you want to hear something kind of ironic, sir?
[20:39.350 --> 20:39.530]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[20:40.410 --> 20:46.210]  [SPEAKER_01]: Caller ID won't help you there, because a lot of those calls come from outside your local area, don't they?
[20:47.170 --> 20:48.050]  [SPEAKER_06]: I really...
[20:48.050 --> 20:49.890]  [SPEAKER_06]: I don't have caller ID, so I wouldn't know.
[20:50.010 --> 20:52.690]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, these people are calling you from other states lots of times.
[20:52.690 --> 20:57.330]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, I didn't realize that it doesn't work out of your area code.
[20:57.570 --> 20:58.430]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and you know, that's something.
[20:58.490 --> 21:00.430]  [SPEAKER_01]: They don't go out of their way to tell you that, do they?
[21:00.610 --> 21:01.110]  [SPEAKER_06]: No, they don't.
[21:01.250 --> 21:06.990]  [SPEAKER_01]: There are so many ways for an obscene caller or a harassing caller to get through without transmitting their numbers.
[21:07.170 --> 21:09.690]  [SPEAKER_01]: So their argument is shot down in that respect, too.
[21:10.050 --> 21:10.270]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh-huh.
[21:10.350 --> 21:11.070]  [SPEAKER_06]: How about...
[21:12.090 --> 21:22.290]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'm curious if you plan to do a show, perhaps, or if you have any comments on the bill that just passed Congress.
[21:24.810 --> 21:26.970]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, heck, what was the number?
[21:27.130 --> 21:32.250]  [SPEAKER_06]: The one regarding the ECPA and how they're going to...
[21:32.250 --> 21:43.930]  [SPEAKER_06]: how they want to stop the manufacture and sale of any kind of radio that can pick up the 800 megahertz cellular band.
[21:44.030 --> 21:45.410]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, that's already been passed, has it not?
[21:45.530 --> 21:48.990]  [SPEAKER_01]: The Electronic Communications Privacy Act of, what was it, 1986?
[21:49.470 --> 21:50.450]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now is...
[21:50.450 --> 21:52.090]  [SPEAKER_06]: They want to take it a step further.
[21:52.250 --> 22:07.010]  [SPEAKER_06]: The ECPA, I guess, didn't go far enough because, as you might know, as you might not know, most of the radios on the market these days that have had that area blocked out are easily modifiable to include...
[22:07.010 --> 22:10.110]  [SPEAKER_06]: to bring that range of frequencies back in.
[22:10.650 --> 22:11.790]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, what they want...
[22:11.790 --> 22:12.690]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's a ridiculous law.
[22:12.750 --> 22:15.890]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's a ridiculous law to prohibit somebody from listening to a public airwave.
[22:16.030 --> 22:17.750]  [SPEAKER_01]: And it's totally unenforceable, too.
[22:18.090 --> 22:18.490]  [SPEAKER_06]: Absolutely.
[22:18.710 --> 22:20.430]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, I don't know about how unenforceable it is.
[22:20.490 --> 22:38.750]  [SPEAKER_06]: What they want to do at this point now is they want to make the FCC reject certification of these radios that have that capability and require the manufacturers to go beyond just blocking out that area.
[22:38.950 --> 22:40.390]  [SPEAKER_06]: In other words, if the radio...
[22:40.390 --> 22:53.130]  [SPEAKER_06]: They want to take it a step further so if the radio can be modified to receive that frequency range, they want to make that those radios are not certifiable for import into this country.
[22:53.310 --> 22:54.730]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I think that's atrocious.
[22:54.730 --> 22:55.930]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's a waste of time.
[22:55.930 --> 23:03.150]  [SPEAKER_01]: And if they really were interested in privacy, they would encrypt the conversations on the cellular phone calls.
[23:03.710 --> 23:07.610]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, tell me, for instance, why is it not illegal to listen to a mobile phone call?
[23:07.650 --> 23:11.090]  [SPEAKER_01]: In other words, a portable telephone, one of those cheap things you buy someplace.
[23:11.330 --> 23:13.010]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's perfectly legal to listen in on that.
[23:13.070 --> 23:17.090]  [SPEAKER_01]: In fact, law enforcement can use things that you say on those phones against you.
[23:17.170 --> 23:18.690]  [SPEAKER_01]: We're talking regular cordless phones here.
[23:18.830 --> 23:22.410]  [SPEAKER_01]: But cellular phones have to be protected by a law.
[23:22.410 --> 23:25.490]  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, it seems to me that this has got something to do with income.
[23:25.730 --> 23:27.090]  [SPEAKER_01]: Rich people use cellular phones.
[23:27.210 --> 23:28.790]  [SPEAKER_01]: Poor people use cordless phones.
[23:29.190 --> 23:32.850]  [SPEAKER_01]: Poor people have to settle for the poor technology they get.
[23:33.030 --> 23:38.410]  [SPEAKER_01]: And rich people are protected by some crazy law that is completely unenforceable in the first place.
[23:38.550 --> 23:45.170]  [SPEAKER_06]: One case that I heard of was down in Alabama where state police in and around the...
[23:45.730 --> 23:46.190]  [SPEAKER_06]: What is it?
[23:46.250 --> 23:48.270]  [SPEAKER_06]: Montgomery is the state capital of Alabama.
[23:49.110 --> 24:03.810]  [SPEAKER_06]: The state police in and around Montgomery used scanners, I guess, to, what's the word I'm looking for, to expand their radio's coverage.
[24:04.110 --> 24:20.850]  [SPEAKER_06]: And it turned out that some of the state police down there were actually listening in to various state legislators as they made certain phone calls on their cellular phones.
[24:21.200 --> 24:44.790]  [SPEAKER_06]: And as a matter of fact, there were some state legislatures, some state legislators were overheard talking to, say, perhaps a prostitute or perhaps making not quite above-board deals on their cellular phones.
[24:45.410 --> 24:46.690]  [SPEAKER_06]: And that really...
[24:46.690 --> 24:50.550]  [SPEAKER_06]: down in Alabama, anyway, you know, that really...
[24:50.550 --> 24:53.270]  [SPEAKER_06]: that really created quite a stir down there.
[24:53.410 --> 24:54.230]  [SPEAKER_06]: I believe some of...
[24:54.230 --> 24:58.470]  [SPEAKER_06]: one of the local papers, newspapers down there, picked up on that story.
[24:58.770 --> 25:02.250]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I can imagine that there's a lot of...
[25:02.250 --> 25:04.550]  [SPEAKER_06]: a lot of these kind of...
[25:04.550 --> 25:16.790]  [SPEAKER_06]: these deal-makers, you know, as far as, like, lobbyists and, you know, politicians and lobbyists, that they probably use their cellular phones quite a bit to perform all kinds of...
[25:17.570 --> 25:22.590]  [SPEAKER_06]: you know, make all kinds of deals and stuff that they'd probably just as soon not have anybody know about.
[25:22.830 --> 25:24.070]  [SPEAKER_06]: So it's more...
[25:24.070 --> 25:24.910]  [SPEAKER_06]: they're more...
[25:24.910 --> 25:33.790]  [SPEAKER_06]: I can imagine that, as you say, you know, it's the rich people that are using the cellular phones as opposed to the poor people that are using the cordless phones.
[25:33.790 --> 25:46.870]  [SPEAKER_06]: But I would say, you know, in my experience from the people that I know that use cellular, you know, mostly it's like construction guys that have to travel from job to job and yet check in at a desk and stuff.
[25:47.010 --> 25:59.530]  [SPEAKER_06]: And they really couldn't care less, you know, if somebody overhears what they're talking about on their cellular phone, because mostly it's like, well, I'm at such and such address, and the secretary says, well, now you have to go to such and such address.
[25:59.530 --> 26:01.610]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, you don't want to be overheard no matter where you are.
[26:01.650 --> 26:05.550]  [SPEAKER_01]: Unless you're on the radio, you're not broadcasting your conversation to everybody.
[26:05.710 --> 26:09.550]  [SPEAKER_01]: A lot of people using cellular phones have no idea how easy it is to be overheard.
[26:09.670 --> 26:10.250]  [SPEAKER_01]: No idea.
[26:10.470 --> 26:23.410]  [SPEAKER_06]: All they need is a little sticker on the side that says, you know, that says that this telephone, or, you know, that this telephone is not a private, you know, that you should not expect the privacy out of this telephone as you would a landline.
[26:23.410 --> 26:38.390]  [SPEAKER_06]: All the police departments and law enforcement agencies are well aware of the non-private capacity of a cellular phone that basically anybody can listen in.
[26:38.530 --> 26:44.790]  [SPEAKER_06]: Just as well as most people do, anyone can listen in to their conversations on their police radios.
[26:44.790 --> 26:53.170]  [SPEAKER_06]: And that's a lot of amateur radio operators and scanner enthusiasts, like myself, feel that that's the next step is where they're going to go.
[26:55.190 --> 27:16.850]  [SPEAKER_06]: There has already been recommendations brought up to the FCC to block out, to have public service bans blocked out from these scanners, which would basically eliminate anyone's real requirement or any entertainment value from owning a scanner, which is basically what I listen to.
[27:17.390 --> 27:21.850]  [SPEAKER_06]: Personally, I've, being the anonymous...
[27:21.850 --> 27:23.490]  [SPEAKER_01]: Don't incriminate yourself.
[27:23.670 --> 27:31.050]  [SPEAKER_06]: ...that I am, I can say that, you know, I've listened to cellular phone calls on my scanner, and they're really pretty boring, you know?
[27:31.670 --> 27:35.050]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, most of them are boring, but most conversations in general are boring.
[27:35.050 --> 27:40.550]  [SPEAKER_01]: And you can hear phone conversations on the shortwave, too, and you can hear them on satellite receivers, all kinds of things.
[27:40.710 --> 27:49.390]  [SPEAKER_06]: Shipped ashore, and last week I called Robert Knight's program because he was making a big thing about how this guy in Saudi Arabia...
[27:49.390 --> 27:57.210]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'm sorry, not Saudi Arabia, the guy in Baghdad, the... Dave or something, the head of that UN...
[27:57.790 --> 28:02.950]  [SPEAKER_06]: the UN inspection team that the Iraqis were claiming he was a CIA agent.
[28:02.950 --> 28:06.870]  [SPEAKER_06]: And Robert Knight was making a big deal about, well, gee, how can this guy...
[28:06.870 --> 28:12.290]  [SPEAKER_06]: How come this guy has this satellite telephone that he can call up all these news media services?
[28:12.550 --> 28:21.490]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I called him and explained, well, that's not all that specialized, a piece of hardware, that all you need is the money to go out and buy one, and they're not all that expensive.
[28:21.490 --> 28:27.810]  [SPEAKER_06]: More expensive is the connect time on the satellite, is having the dedicated satellite time.
[28:27.970 --> 28:29.550]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm sure that was picked up by the networks.
[28:29.790 --> 28:31.010]  [SPEAKER_01]: Listen, sir, we're going to move on.
[28:31.150 --> 28:31.350]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[28:31.610 --> 28:32.150]  [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for calling.
[28:32.470 --> 28:37.410]  [SPEAKER_01]: And we are talking about caller ID tonight, not radios, but we're branching into other things, I guess.
[28:38.130 --> 28:41.050]  [SPEAKER_01]: Caller ID and the advantages and disadvantages.
[28:41.710 --> 28:47.790]  [SPEAKER_01]: Let me read you a little bit from one of these internal documents that are floating around in the Bell system.
[28:47.790 --> 29:07.850]  [SPEAKER_01]: When calling number delivery, CND, as caller ID is officially referred to, when CND is activated on a line, the DNs, okay, DNs are directory numbers, in other words, your phone number, DNs of terminating calls are transmitted to the called CPE, okay?
[29:07.850 --> 29:11.330]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's customer premises equipment, in other words, your phone.
[29:11.330 --> 29:29.190]  [SPEAKER_01]: For an inter-office call, which basically calls between two different central offices, one area to another, the caller's DN is transmitted from the originating stored program controlled system, SPCS, to which the calling party is connected, to the terminating SPCS,
[29:29.330 --> 29:32.290]  [SPEAKER_01]: to which the called party is connected during call setup.
[29:32.290 --> 29:38.650]  [SPEAKER_01]: It is then transmitted from the terminating SPCS to the customer premises equipment.
[29:38.650 --> 29:41.390]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'll just say to the telephone to make it easier to understand.
[29:41.990 --> 29:51.090]  [SPEAKER_01]: And it's transmitted to that phone during the first long silent interval of the ringing cycle between the first and second rings.
[29:52.170 --> 29:53.910]  [SPEAKER_01]: That is when the information is transmitted.
[29:54.090 --> 29:56.030]  [SPEAKER_01]: If you pick up the phone on the first ring, you don't get it.
[29:56.390 --> 29:58.310]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's a rather interesting feature there.
[29:58.310 --> 30:05.530]  [SPEAKER_01]: And they define a long silent interval as an interval of silence lasting three or more seconds.
[30:06.310 --> 30:17.330]  [SPEAKER_01]: For an intra-office call, which is calls within the same central office, the caller's phone number is retrieved from SPCS memory for transmission to the receiving phone.
[30:17.470 --> 30:27.590]  [SPEAKER_01]: And then, depending on the options offered by the receiving phone or other equipment in the customer's premises, the phone number is displayed and or printed out.
[30:28.530 --> 30:33.470]  [SPEAKER_01]: And the customer might also arrange to store the number for later retrieval.
[30:34.350 --> 30:38.810]  [SPEAKER_01]: And these options are transparent and all kinds of other technical things.
[30:38.910 --> 30:49.330]  [SPEAKER_01]: But what they basically say here is that this transmission of data should never take place while the customer, while the called customer, is in an off-hook state.
[30:49.330 --> 30:52.010]  [SPEAKER_01]: So you won't get this on, say, call waiting, for instance.
[30:52.010 --> 30:54.650]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's not transmitted in situations like that.
[30:56.250 --> 31:00.530]  [SPEAKER_01]: But they seem to devote a lot of time to that particular scenario, in fact.
[31:00.530 --> 31:11.870]  [SPEAKER_01]: Also, C&D service allows the called CPE or telephone to receive a four-digit or a longer personal identification number instead of the calling number.
[31:12.670 --> 31:17.630]  [SPEAKER_01]: This personal identification number would be dialed by the calling party as part of the calling sequence.
[31:17.790 --> 31:21.330]  [SPEAKER_01]: So in other words, you can leave any number you want.
[31:21.490 --> 31:24.230]  [SPEAKER_01]: You can enter any number you want instead of your phone number.
[31:24.230 --> 31:25.510]  [SPEAKER_01]: That might be a better system.
[31:25.710 --> 31:31.110]  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, that way it's up to you, the caller, to decide what you want to be known as, you know.
[31:32.150 --> 31:35.050]  [SPEAKER_01]: And let's say we had a bunch of people on the phone line here.
[31:35.170 --> 31:37.230]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, one person wants to talk about this.
[31:37.370 --> 31:43.750]  [SPEAKER_01]: They tap in a certain combination of predetermined numbers to tell me that that's what they want to talk about.
[31:43.830 --> 31:44.910]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I go to that caller next.
[31:45.530 --> 31:48.290]  [SPEAKER_01]: Another person types in 123, meaning something else.
[31:48.290 --> 31:56.350]  [SPEAKER_01]: I go to them, rather than have the phone number show up, which is certainly an invasion of privacy if you're calling a radio talk show.
[31:58.790 --> 32:04.310]  [SPEAKER_01]: This particular personal identification code would, as I said, be dialed by the calling party.
[32:05.390 --> 32:18.370]  [SPEAKER_01]: And receiving that personal identification code would indicate that the call is from someone that the call party probably wants to talk to, even though the call might be from a line having a phone number that would not have been recognized, like a payphone.
[32:19.230 --> 32:22.990]  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I like to know, people who have caller ID, is that a problem?
[32:23.330 --> 32:27.910]  [SPEAKER_01]: Do you get a lot of phone numbers that you don't know who they are because people are calling from payphones?
[32:28.110 --> 32:30.910]  [SPEAKER_01]: Or people are calling from other people's houses, so you get all confused?
[32:31.730 --> 32:32.570]  [SPEAKER_01]: Give us a call.
[32:33.250 --> 32:34.250]  [SPEAKER_01]: 279-3400.
[32:34.990 --> 32:35.570]  [SPEAKER_01]: Good evening.
[32:37.250 --> 32:37.650]  [SPEAKER_01]: Hello?
[32:38.170 --> 32:38.570]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yes.
[32:39.390 --> 32:40.690]  [SPEAKER_01]: What kind of phone are you on?
[32:40.690 --> 32:44.390]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, I'm on, uh, uh, one of those, uh, call this phone.
[32:44.490 --> 32:45.070]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I thought so.
[32:45.130 --> 32:45.770]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, uh...
[32:45.770 --> 32:46.590]  [SPEAKER_08]: I'm being heard on.
[32:46.650 --> 32:51.010]  [SPEAKER_08]: Listen, I saw you on, uh, uh, Now It Can't Be Told of, uh, Geraldo Rivera.
[32:51.210 --> 32:51.850]  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, God.
[32:52.010 --> 32:53.350]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I knew somebody would bring that up.
[32:54.530 --> 32:55.350]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I'll just...
[32:55.350 --> 32:56.870]  [SPEAKER_08]: It was different from when I expected you to look.
[32:56.950 --> 32:57.850]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, I'll say this.
[32:57.930 --> 32:59.490]  [SPEAKER_01]: Geraldo has sunk to new lows.
[32:59.850 --> 33:10.870]  [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't think it was possible, but, uh, he distorted that story beyond all recognition, and, um, I'm sure most of WBAI's listeners are intelligent enough to see through the garbage that was, uh, displayed.
[33:11.070 --> 33:18.430]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, computer hackers aren't out there, uh, working with Saddam Hussein or Abu Nadal or anybody like that plotting the overthrow of the world.
[33:18.890 --> 33:25.950]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, that videotape was released by Dutch hackers so that, uh, the Defense Department of this country would learn something.
[33:26.230 --> 33:31.330]  [SPEAKER_01]: Hopefully they have, but if they believe what Geraldo says, I pray for all of us, and I'm an agnostic.
[33:31.330 --> 33:32.530]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, it was interesting.
[33:32.830 --> 33:35.890]  [SPEAKER_08]: I, I, I thought it was kind of misleading, but I thought it was interesting, though.
[33:36.210 --> 33:38.650]  [SPEAKER_08]: And I thought Geraldo, uh, was a bit slanted.
[33:38.810 --> 33:39.430]  [SPEAKER_08]: I don't know why, though.
[33:39.990 --> 33:42.630]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, because he's always a bit slanted.
[33:42.770 --> 33:43.030]  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
[33:43.110 --> 33:44.490]  [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe it's a requirement for him or something.
[33:44.550 --> 33:48.970]  [SPEAKER_08]: No, he, he normally, he's, uh, he's a very, uh, progressive, liberal, you know, uh...
[33:48.970 --> 33:50.530]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I don't think he knew anything about the subject.
[33:51.430 --> 33:57.630]  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think he really understood what he was talking about because, uh, it was obvious he didn't know anything about what computer hackers were.
[33:57.630 --> 33:58.230]  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah.
[33:58.370 --> 34:00.730]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'd be amazed if he even looked at what we were doing.
[34:02.730 --> 34:08.230]  [SPEAKER_08]: Listen, I need 2600, the magazine, the address of how to get it.
[34:08.530 --> 34:19.030]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, well, you can probably find it in a bookstore downtown someplace, but if you want our address, I can give you the address, but I can't give prices or anything like that, or I'll get shot.
[34:19.030 --> 34:28.510]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, it's, uh, 2600 Post Office Box 752, Middle Island, New York, and, uh, the zip code is 11953.
[34:28.830 --> 34:28.990]  Hmm.
[34:29.310 --> 34:31.730]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, you mentioned a bookstore in Lower Manhattan?
[34:32.030 --> 34:37.150]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, yeah, try Tower, try Hudson News, uh, try, uh, St. Mark's.
[34:37.250 --> 34:38.530]  [SPEAKER_08]: St. Mark's, uh, bookstore, eh?
[34:38.770 --> 34:38.990]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[34:39.350 --> 34:40.430]  [SPEAKER_08]: They'll probably have it, right?
[34:40.550 --> 34:42.610]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, in fact, St. Mark's even plays WBAI.
[34:42.710 --> 34:43.750]  [SPEAKER_01]: They might even be listening to us now.
[34:44.650 --> 34:46.590]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, uh, yeah, try them first, I guess.
[34:46.710 --> 34:47.850]  [SPEAKER_08]: Tell them to hold a copy for me.
[34:47.850 --> 34:50.050]  [SPEAKER_01]: Do you have any, any thoughts on Caller ID, so we don't stray too far?
[34:50.050 --> 34:53.330]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, it's a rip-off, you know, it's a squeeze by the, uh, by the phone company, you know?
[34:53.490 --> 34:58.050]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, they set a Caller ID for paranoid people, and then they call Caller Blocking for paranoid people.
[34:58.110 --> 35:01.170]  [SPEAKER_08]: But listen, they're going to make money, this is America, I love it, but, you know, what can I say?
[35:02.070 --> 35:03.550]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I think you said quite a bit there.
[35:03.630 --> 35:04.730]  [SPEAKER_01]: Where, where are you calling from?
[35:04.970 --> 35:05.530]  [SPEAKER_08]: I'm from Queens.
[35:05.750 --> 35:07.730]  [SPEAKER_01]: Queens, so you don't have it yet, uh...
[35:07.730 --> 35:09.890]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, New York doesn't have it, only New Jersey has it.
[35:09.990 --> 35:10.310]  [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[35:10.430 --> 35:11.710]  [SPEAKER_01]: Do you know anybody over there that has it?
[35:11.910 --> 35:12.610]  [SPEAKER_08]: In Queens?
[35:12.850 --> 35:13.450]  [SPEAKER_01]: In New Jersey.
[35:14.330 --> 35:14.970]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, no.
[35:15.450 --> 35:17.710]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, do you think you'll get it when it, when it comes to Queens?
[35:19.430 --> 35:20.230]  [SPEAKER_08]: No, I don't.
[35:20.370 --> 35:23.330]  [SPEAKER_08]: I won't get Caller ID, and I won't get Caller Blocking.
[35:23.670 --> 35:27.330]  [SPEAKER_08]: Because my, you know, uh, I'm a boring guy, you know, who the hell wants to know about me?
[35:27.850 --> 35:30.190]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, uh, don't degrade yourself, but, uh...
[35:30.190 --> 35:33.850]  [SPEAKER_08]: I mean, you know, uh, plus six bucks a month, that's the price, right?
[35:34.170 --> 35:35.490]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's a bit too expensive for me.
[35:35.530 --> 35:47.630]  [SPEAKER_01]: What, uh, what Richard Kessel is trying to accomplish is to force New York Telephone to offer what we have now, basically, which is a privacy feature when you make a phone call, uh, to offer that without charging anything.
[35:48.330 --> 35:48.690]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh...
[35:48.690 --> 35:50.450]  [SPEAKER_01]: So if that was available, would you get that?
[35:52.770 --> 36:03.130]  [SPEAKER_08]: I can learn to hide when I call people, you know, uh, I call friends, I call, uh, government or businesses, uh, you know, I don't harass people with a phone, I don't really need a call blocking.
[36:03.570 --> 36:03.790]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh-huh.
[36:03.870 --> 36:07.450]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I mean, maybe, maybe you have to call something anonymously.
[36:07.450 --> 36:14.710]  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, there must have been a time in your life when you had to, uh, make a phone call, and you didn't want the person on the other end to know exactly where you were or who you were.
[36:15.450 --> 36:19.950]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, maybe for a phone sex line, but other than that, I see no other reason to block my phone number.
[36:20.230 --> 36:20.710]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh-huh.
[36:21.030 --> 36:21.430]  [SPEAKER_08]: You know?
[36:21.630 --> 36:30.270]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, if you, if you lead a, you know, a life out there in the, in the open where everybody, uh, can always identify what you're doing, I guess it's good for that.
[36:30.270 --> 36:35.670]  [SPEAKER_01]: But, uh, I don't know, you know, I don't want to always be identified as, as who I am when I'm calling somebody.
[36:35.870 --> 36:45.950]  [SPEAKER_01]: Because, really, if you call somebody to find out something, like you call the local store to find out how much eggs are this week, do they really have the right to know, you know, your phone number because of that?
[36:46.330 --> 36:47.690]  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, it seems kind of, kind of weird.
[36:48.010 --> 36:51.050]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, at the same time, you know, I'm not going to make a big deal.
[36:51.210 --> 36:53.930]  [SPEAKER_08]: If they do call me, I would say eggs are this price.
[36:54.090 --> 36:55.390]  [SPEAKER_08]: You know, I just say thank you and hang up.
[36:55.670 --> 36:55.950]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh-huh.
[36:56.010 --> 36:58.350]  [SPEAKER_01]: Because they, they could store your number from then on.
[36:58.350 --> 37:00.390]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's another thing that people are very concerned about.
[37:00.590 --> 37:09.590]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, they could attach a device to their computer, hook it into the phone line, and save all the phone numbers that call them, and then zap them right back with all kinds of, of junk phone calls.
[37:09.690 --> 37:10.250]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's true.
[37:10.590 --> 37:16.290]  [SPEAKER_08]: Listen, I never got my, uh, my number unlisted in the first place, and, uh...
[37:16.290 --> 37:17.370]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, there's no reason to get...
[37:17.370 --> 37:19.750]  [SPEAKER_08]: For that service, I don't, I don't bother taking it because, you know...
[37:19.750 --> 37:22.430]  [SPEAKER_01]: There's no reason for anybody to have an unlisted phone number, and I'll tell you why.
[37:22.450 --> 37:26.490]  [SPEAKER_01]: Because it doesn't cost anything to list your phone number under a fake name.
[37:26.490 --> 37:33.630]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, listing it under a fake name is just the same as having it unlisted, except you don't have to pay something every month for absolutely nothing.
[37:33.870 --> 37:34.590]  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, think about it.
[37:34.710 --> 37:37.630]  [SPEAKER_01]: We, we get programmed into the most ridiculous things by the phone company.
[37:37.790 --> 37:41.790]  [SPEAKER_01]: We have to pay not to have our name in a book every month.
[37:42.130 --> 37:43.870]  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that's the craziest thing I've ever heard.
[37:43.990 --> 37:47.350]  [SPEAKER_01]: What kind of maintenance is there in not having your name in a book?
[37:47.590 --> 37:49.110]  [SPEAKER_01]: Somebody please explain that to me.
[37:49.110 --> 37:51.490]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, uh...
[37:52.290 --> 37:53.490]  [SPEAKER_08]: I am the wrong person.
[37:53.790 --> 37:54.610]  [SPEAKER_08]: But, uh...
[37:54.610 --> 37:59.110]  [SPEAKER_01]: No, I didn't expect you to, but I'd like somebody to try and explain that twisted logic to me.
[37:59.310 --> 37:59.810]  [SPEAKER_08]: Hey, listen.
[38:00.130 --> 38:01.110]  [SPEAKER_08]: Emmanuel, uh...
[38:01.110 --> 38:01.230]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[38:01.710 --> 38:01.970]  [SPEAKER_08]: Wow.
[38:02.210 --> 38:03.670]  [SPEAKER_08]: You have pretty long hair, you know that?
[38:03.870 --> 38:04.310]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sorry?
[38:04.490 --> 38:05.470]  [SPEAKER_08]: You have pretty long hair.
[38:05.750 --> 38:07.550]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, yeah, you know, it's useful for some things.
[38:07.710 --> 38:11.970]  [SPEAKER_08]: Listen, there was, there was a part of the, of the news story in which, uh...
[38:11.970 --> 38:15.330]  [SPEAKER_08]: They had the, uh, the guys from the, uh, uh...
[38:15.330 --> 38:18.010]  [SPEAKER_08]: Who were at the, uh, the meat market area.
[38:18.410 --> 38:21.230]  [SPEAKER_08]: And they were breaking into the, uh, the government agencies.
[38:21.430 --> 38:23.330]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, now, now, look at the story.
[38:23.470 --> 38:29.190]  [SPEAKER_01]: Were they breaking into government agencies or were they simply using a portable computer at a payphone in the meatpacking district?
[38:29.450 --> 38:33.950]  [SPEAKER_01]: You see, that's one of the things Geraldo sort of, uh, uh, made look like it wasn't.
[38:34.070 --> 38:34.390]  [SPEAKER_01]: You see?
[38:34.950 --> 38:38.650]  [SPEAKER_01]: People use portable terminals at payphones all the time and they're not committing crimes.
[38:38.910 --> 38:39.850]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, yeah, I understand.
[38:39.850 --> 38:43.070]  [SPEAKER_01]: The point is that you can use portable terminals.
[38:43.070 --> 38:44.330]  [SPEAKER_01]: You can use any kind of terminal.
[38:44.570 --> 38:53.810]  [SPEAKER_01]: And the real, you know, the real crux of the matter, in my opinion, is the fact that Defense Department computers are wide open.
[38:54.010 --> 38:55.750]  [SPEAKER_01]: That should have been what the story was all about.
[38:55.950 --> 38:58.190]  [SPEAKER_01]: Unfortunately, that part of it seemed to have gotten lost.
[38:58.190 --> 39:00.550]  [SPEAKER_08]: You know, uh, oh, I'm not going to say that.
[39:00.870 --> 39:01.950]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, there's another thing.
[39:02.190 --> 39:02.450]  [SPEAKER_08]: Hello?
[39:02.990 --> 39:03.450]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, go ahead.
[39:03.690 --> 39:12.530]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, the G, uh, Gerardo may mention of the, uh, General Accounting Office, a report they did on, uh, computer security at the financial markets.
[39:12.990 --> 39:15.190]  [SPEAKER_08]: Do you have any more information on that report?
[39:15.390 --> 39:17.230]  [SPEAKER_01]: No, I don't really know what he was referring to.
[39:17.390 --> 39:20.410]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, he was referring to some kind of report that the GAO made.
[39:20.610 --> 39:22.150]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but the GAO is always making reports.
[39:22.270 --> 39:23.390]  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think they do anything else.
[39:23.390 --> 39:32.270]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, but, you know, some report about the financial markets, about how safe they were to, uh, computer crime or computer privacy, whatever it was.
[39:32.470 --> 39:36.330]  [SPEAKER_08]: And, uh, I want to, you know, look up that report myself, see what the government says.
[39:36.810 --> 39:40.070]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I can give you a phone number of Now It Can Be Told, and you can call them.
[39:40.470 --> 39:44.550]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I'll give it to everybody out there that wants to, uh, air their comments about that program.
[39:44.750 --> 39:46.690]  [SPEAKER_01]: 212-956-1000.
[39:47.150 --> 39:49.790]  [SPEAKER_01]: Call that number and, uh, let them know what you think.
[39:49.890 --> 39:50.710]  [SPEAKER_08]: Listen, I like Now It Can Be Told.
[39:50.810 --> 39:52.030]  [SPEAKER_08]: I like Gerardo Rivera.
[39:52.030 --> 39:54.810]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, well, that's, that's your right in this country, I guess.
[39:54.950 --> 39:58.470]  [SPEAKER_01]: But, uh, you know, when certain things are just distorted, you have to, uh...
[39:58.470 --> 40:01.530]  [SPEAKER_08]: I know, but, you know, you gotta like the guy.
[40:02.130 --> 40:03.110]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, you know...
[40:03.110 --> 40:04.510]  [SPEAKER_08]: He's a, he's a funny guy.
[40:04.930 --> 40:07.330]  [SPEAKER_01]: I support his right to breathe air around here.
[40:07.510 --> 40:08.670]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, that's about it, though.
[40:08.870 --> 40:09.910]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's about as far as I'll go.
[40:10.050 --> 40:10.810]  [SPEAKER_08]: Enough on Gerardo.
[40:10.970 --> 40:12.230]  [SPEAKER_08]: He's, uh, he's an okay guy.
[40:12.530 --> 40:14.310]  [SPEAKER_08]: He wrote that stupid book, all right?
[40:15.850 --> 40:19.490]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I won't even get into that, because I won't stoop to his level.
[40:20.550 --> 40:21.590]  [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for calling, though.
[40:21.930 --> 40:23.330]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, 279-3400.
[40:23.510 --> 40:25.910]  [SPEAKER_01]: We're talking about caller ID, at least we're trying to.
[40:26.390 --> 40:26.990]  [SPEAKER_01]: Good evening.
[40:27.270 --> 40:27.510]  [SPEAKER_04]: Hello.
[40:27.770 --> 40:28.150]  [SPEAKER_04]: How you doing?
[40:28.670 --> 40:29.030]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, okay.
[40:29.530 --> 40:35.490]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, when you, uh, when you said about the telephone that they want to...
[40:36.890 --> 40:37.950]  [SPEAKER_01]: Turn your radio down, please.
[40:38.050 --> 40:39.570]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I have a...
[40:46.660 --> 40:51.120]  [SPEAKER_04]: ...to issue the identification card or the numbers or whatever.
[40:51.540 --> 40:52.240]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, caller ID.
[40:52.460 --> 40:53.720]  [SPEAKER_01]: It will display your phone number on...
[40:53.720 --> 41:00.820]  [SPEAKER_04]: Is it, uh, just, uh, when I call from Manhattan, let's say, to Queens, or from Manhattan to Bronx, or from Manhattan to Long Island or something?
[41:00.980 --> 41:03.120]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, it doesn't exist yet, but...
[41:03.120 --> 41:05.100]  [SPEAKER_04]: No, I know, but this is what they wanted to do?
[41:05.240 --> 41:07.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: When it does exist, you're right, it will only be for a limited...
[41:07.620 --> 41:09.600]  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't want to exist, but I hope not.
[41:09.760 --> 41:11.840]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, well, that's, that's, uh, a good opinion.
[41:12.020 --> 41:13.560]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'd like to hear that opinion a little bit more.
[41:14.060 --> 41:16.920]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, but, yes, it will only exist for a limited area.
[41:16.920 --> 41:26.100]  [SPEAKER_01]: In other words, if you called, say, Pennsylvania, no, it would not show up there, but it would show up for a local area, certainly, 212, 718, uh, possibly Long Island.
[41:26.200 --> 41:29.200]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not sure exactly how far it will go, but for the moment it's pretty limited.
[41:29.760 --> 41:34.080]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, and this is, uh, Mr. Cuomo already vetoed, right?
[41:34.240 --> 41:37.520]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, he vetoed, uh, what, uh, they were trying to force through.
[41:37.620 --> 41:43.640]  [SPEAKER_01]: Which was basically, uh, a bill that would allow them to charge, uh, to block your line.
[41:44.300 --> 41:50.360]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, Cuomo's view, I, actually, I don't know if it's Cuomo's view, but I know it's Richard Kessel's view, is that this should be free.
[41:50.580 --> 41:53.400]  [SPEAKER_01]: We, we should not have to pay to keep our number private.
[41:53.760 --> 41:55.900]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, and we should be able to do it all the time.
[41:56.000 --> 42:01.960]  [SPEAKER_04]: I pay, and I keep my number private, and many times, uh, they wake me up in the middle of the night.
[42:02.360 --> 42:03.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, which, which is this?
[42:04.500 --> 42:07.020]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, Manhattan, right here, uh, 29th Street.
[42:07.020 --> 42:07.640]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh-huh.
[42:07.880 --> 42:09.360]  [SPEAKER_04]: You're on 35th, I'm on 29th.
[42:09.800 --> 42:10.100]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh-huh.
[42:10.440 --> 42:14.060]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, there's all kinds of, uh, of hassles that will arise from this, I'm sure.
[42:14.180 --> 42:17.600]  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, people will get your phone number when you call them, and then they'll have your phone number.
[42:17.680 --> 42:18.660]  [SPEAKER_04]: No, I don't usually call.
[42:18.840 --> 42:25.580]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm a person who, unless it's absolutely necessary, but, uh, I guess people make, uh, combinations.
[42:25.820 --> 42:26.660]  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know what they do.
[42:26.660 --> 42:28.000]  [SPEAKER_04]: So, I pay all my life.
[42:28.200 --> 42:33.860]  [SPEAKER_04]: I never had, uh, my telephone in the book, uh, because I don't want, uh, I don't want to, uh, you know.
[42:34.000 --> 42:37.220]  [SPEAKER_01]: Do you have a, do you have any kind of problem with, uh, harassing phone calls?
[42:37.600 --> 42:39.400]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, I used to, yeah.
[42:39.720 --> 42:40.000]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh-huh.
[42:40.080 --> 42:40.660]  [SPEAKER_04]: Used to, yeah.
[42:40.720 --> 42:42.380]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's why I put, uh, like this.
[42:42.480 --> 42:44.000]  [SPEAKER_04]: But I know my telephone is tapped.
[42:44.440 --> 42:45.640]  [SPEAKER_01]: You know your telephone is tapped?
[42:45.780 --> 42:45.940]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
[42:45.940 --> 42:48.560]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, uh, let me just ask how you know that.
[42:48.980 --> 42:49.960]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, I know it.
[42:50.440 --> 42:50.800]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[42:51.440 --> 42:54.700]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, sometime I might just, uh, stop there to tell you.
[42:54.840 --> 42:58.420]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, then, let me say at this point hello to everybody that's listening on your telephone line.
[42:58.580 --> 43:00.260]  [SPEAKER_04]: No, what, uh, they can listen.
[43:00.500 --> 43:01.380]  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't, uh, give a damn.
[43:01.720 --> 43:01.880]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[43:02.020 --> 43:06.660]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, what I would like to ask you is, uh, is it going to be done, uh, through interstate?
[43:07.120 --> 43:12.480]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, right now they don't, uh, they don't have any public plans that I'm aware of to make it interstate.
[43:13.140 --> 43:15.560]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, the capability certainly will exist to do this.
[43:15.560 --> 43:19.740]  [SPEAKER_01]: And yes, they will eventually move to, uh, have this all over the country.
[43:19.840 --> 43:22.800]  [SPEAKER_01]: In other words, you'll call somebody in Los Angeles and your phone number will pop up on their phone.
[43:22.920 --> 43:25.240]  [SPEAKER_04]: Like Washington or Virginia or, uh, where I call?
[43:25.400 --> 43:25.760]  [SPEAKER_01]: Everywhere.
[43:26.240 --> 43:26.600]  [SPEAKER_01]: Eventually.
[43:26.620 --> 43:27.680]  [SPEAKER_01]: That is what they're aiming for.
[43:27.760 --> 43:34.460]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's very obvious that that's what they're going for because every phone company in every state is saying the exact same thing and eventually they're all going to link arms.
[43:34.920 --> 43:41.440]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's why I think it's up to us to, to make it as difficult as possible to, uh, to just, uh, bow into this.
[43:41.640 --> 43:41.940]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, but I don't call, uh, there.
[43:42.060 --> 43:44.380]  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't call through New York company.
[43:44.380 --> 43:45.780]  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't call through MCI.
[43:46.660 --> 43:47.920]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's, uh, that's a very good point.
[43:48.020 --> 43:49.220]  [SPEAKER_01]: You could call through another company.
[43:49.360 --> 43:50.960]  [SPEAKER_01]: You could use a 950 dial-up.
[43:51.140 --> 43:52.560]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, you can use a payphone.
[43:52.700 --> 43:53.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: You can go through an operator.
[43:53.780 --> 43:55.280]  [SPEAKER_01]: There's so many ways to get around calling.
[43:55.280 --> 43:55.800]  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't have MCI.
[43:55.900 --> 43:56.440]  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't have anything.
[43:56.740 --> 43:59.320]  [SPEAKER_04]: They did a very, uh, very dirty thing to me once.
[43:59.380 --> 44:00.200]  [SPEAKER_04]: And that's it.
[44:00.420 --> 44:00.740]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh-huh.
[44:00.980 --> 44:03.860]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, a lot of people have reasons for using different long-distance companies.
[44:04.080 --> 44:05.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks very much for your opinions.
[44:05.440 --> 44:07.080]  [SPEAKER_01]: We're going to move on to another phone call.
[44:15.100 --> 44:21.440]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, and these, uh, these really should be available to the general public because what are we talking about here?
[44:21.500 --> 44:27.180]  [SPEAKER_01]: We're talking about services that you and I are either going to be using or that will be using us.
[44:27.440 --> 44:29.980]  [SPEAKER_01]: So it's something that, uh, we all should be reading.
[44:30.120 --> 44:33.880]  [SPEAKER_01]: We all should be, you know, having some kind of an opinion on.
[44:33.880 --> 44:36.480]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, uh, listen to this.
[44:37.380 --> 44:46.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, the, uh, data transmission is, uh, going to be provided, and this is for you technical people, via a Simplex Voiceband Digital Interface.
[44:46.360 --> 44:49.200]  [SPEAKER_01]: Simplex Voiceband Digital Interface known as VDI.
[44:50.020 --> 45:00.420]  [SPEAKER_01]: And, uh, if you want all kinds of technical information on that, you can read, uh, Belcor document TRTSY-000030.
[45:00.420 --> 45:05.260]  [SPEAKER_01]: And that's known as SPCS, Customer Premises Equipment Data Interface.
[45:06.000 --> 45:08.560]  [SPEAKER_01]: And, uh, this is interesting, folks.
[45:08.760 --> 45:09.840]  [SPEAKER_01]: This is very interesting.
[45:10.660 --> 45:12.080]  [SPEAKER_01]: Take a listen to this.
[45:12.520 --> 45:30.400]  [SPEAKER_01]: Although not offered initially, it might be desirable in the future to provide an interface to directory assistants or another database so that the calling party name, instead of the calling number, can be determined and transmitted to the display of the person.
[45:30.420 --> 45:33.960]  [SPEAKER_01]: You're calling, so they can, and it's, it's not hard to do.
[45:34.080 --> 45:39.000]  [SPEAKER_01]: They can tie this into their databases and transmit a name.
[45:39.520 --> 45:43.320]  [SPEAKER_01]: So if you think, oh, my number doesn't mean much, well, okay, they'll transmit your name then.
[45:43.680 --> 45:45.800]  [SPEAKER_01]: They'll figure out a way to, to get all that information.
[45:46.520 --> 45:50.720]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, uh, keep in mind, once we take this step, there's no going back.
[45:51.160 --> 45:53.400]  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, if it doesn't work out, they're not going to stop it.
[45:54.260 --> 45:56.020]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's, uh, it's already in place.
[45:57.000 --> 45:59.840]  [SPEAKER_01]: And another, uh, another bit for you technical people.
[46:00.680 --> 46:07.260]  [SPEAKER_01]: The allowable data transmission rates for this service, uh, as I said, are given in that Belcor document.
[46:07.780 --> 46:16.800]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, it's desirable that a rate of 1,200 to 1,800 bits per second, or 1,200 to 1,800 baud, uh, be provided for this service.
[46:16.800 --> 46:19.160]  [SPEAKER_01]: So that is how they are transmitting it.
[46:19.260 --> 46:20.720]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's between the first and second ring.
[46:20.860 --> 46:27.980]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'd love to, uh, hear reports from people that have, uh, recorded their telephones after the first ring.
[46:28.160 --> 46:34.240]  [SPEAKER_01]: You subscribe to caller ID, and you listen to that burst of data that comes between the first and second ring.
[46:34.320 --> 46:42.840]  [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe we can decode it, figure out exactly what they're doing, what they're transmitting, and, uh, figure out ways to fool it, ways to make it transmit other numbers.
[46:42.840 --> 46:44.720]  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, there's got to be all kinds of things you can do.
[46:45.220 --> 46:48.720]  [SPEAKER_01]: But, uh, we've got to have hands-on access to this technology.
[46:49.440 --> 46:54.820]  [SPEAKER_01]: And we also have to, uh, be educated about it before we, uh, are expected to submit to it.
[46:55.180 --> 46:57.240]  [SPEAKER_01]: 2-7-9-3-4-100.
[46:58.240 --> 46:58.820]  [SPEAKER_01]: Good evening.
[46:59.280 --> 47:01.660]  [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, wow, you finally stopped talking.
[47:02.000 --> 47:02.160]  [SPEAKER_03]: Um...
[47:02.160 --> 47:02.700]  [SPEAKER_01]: Finally, yes.
[47:02.940 --> 47:14.200]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, uh, that's my first comment, that, uh, you tell people to call and then you spend, like, too long with one person, and, uh, you don't know how awful it feels to be listening to a ringing phone for a half hour.
[47:14.320 --> 47:16.060]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'm well acquainted with that sound.
[47:16.220 --> 47:19.060]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, um, my first and second comments.
[47:19.260 --> 47:22.280]  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, the guy who called you first was a sleazeball.
[47:22.520 --> 47:29.100]  [SPEAKER_03]: He first starts out by saying his invasion of his, is an invasion of his privacy when people call him.
[47:29.200 --> 47:35.980]  [SPEAKER_03]: And then he tells us that he listens to other people's private conversations, which is a scummy thing to do.
[47:35.980 --> 47:36.960]  [SPEAKER_01]: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
[47:37.120 --> 47:39.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: He said other people's private conversations.
[47:39.800 --> 47:44.940]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, I don't think you can use the word private there if it's being broadcast non-scrambled over public airwaves.
[47:45.040 --> 47:48.220]  [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, he doesn't, people don't have to listen to other people's conversations.
[47:48.400 --> 47:49.520]  [SPEAKER_03]: Get a life, you know what I mean?
[47:49.520 --> 47:50.700]  [SPEAKER_03]: There are other things to do.
[47:50.760 --> 47:52.680]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, okay, that's, that might be a valid point.
[47:52.820 --> 47:54.040]  [SPEAKER_01]: The fact that, uh, you know...
[47:54.040 --> 47:56.100]  [SPEAKER_03]: You don't listen to private, and he says they're boring?
[47:56.660 --> 47:58.100]  [SPEAKER_03]: Wow, this guy is boring.
[47:58.100 --> 47:59.620]  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, my third point.
[47:59.800 --> 48:21.480]  [SPEAKER_03]: I really wouldn't have wanted caller identification, but I have now got to have a tap on my phone by the telephone company, because that's the only way to prove that this person that I know that is calling and harassing me namelessly and being obscene is doing it,
[48:21.500 --> 48:25.200]  [SPEAKER_03]: and the police won't act on it until the phone company gives them the evidence.
[48:25.200 --> 48:32.880]  [SPEAKER_03]: And so, the caller ID would have saved me a lot of bad phone calls, and a lot of trouble, and a lot of time.
[48:33.140 --> 48:36.900]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, you see, the technology will exist for you to find out.
[48:37.060 --> 48:48.140]  [SPEAKER_01]: There's also something called Call Trace that anybody will be able to get, where you call a certain code after you get a particularly harassing call, and the number is forwarded to the phone company, and they investigate it.
[48:48.220 --> 48:49.260]  [SPEAKER_08]: And how do you get that?
[48:49.500 --> 48:55.660]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, that's going to be standard on all of, uh, all of these new features, these class services.
[48:56.180 --> 49:00.540]  [SPEAKER_03]: So, like, you can have that for once, or for one time only, or you have to pay for it?
[49:00.580 --> 49:02.500]  [SPEAKER_01]: I think you have to pay every time you use it.
[49:02.560 --> 49:03.660]  [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's how that will work.
[49:03.700 --> 49:05.900]  [SPEAKER_03]: That would be much more intelligent than the caller ID.
[49:06.120 --> 49:06.440]  [SPEAKER_01]: I agree.
[49:06.600 --> 49:09.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: I think that that is a much more user-friendly way of doing it.
[49:09.620 --> 49:13.460]  [SPEAKER_01]: If you get a harassing call, you report it right there on the spot that technology exists.
[49:13.620 --> 49:17.460]  [SPEAKER_03]: You know that they could have done this 30 years ago, because I worked for the phone company.
[49:24.860 --> 49:26.780]  [SPEAKER_03]: that they are still not giving us.
[49:27.120 --> 49:27.740]  [SPEAKER_01]: Like what?
[49:28.000 --> 49:32.580]  [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, I'm not going to go into it, but I mean like the TV stuff where you could see the caller.
[49:32.800 --> 49:33.440]  [SPEAKER_01]: Picture phones.
[49:33.660 --> 49:33.860]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[49:34.060 --> 49:36.240]  [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, that stuff has been held back.
[49:36.380 --> 49:40.080]  [SPEAKER_03]: They dribble it out, and they charge us enormous rates.
[49:40.460 --> 49:53.400]  [SPEAKER_03]: But this caller ID is a big problem, because what the first thing that you said was that it flashes on for the, before you, what if you're not in the room, and you don't have a retrieval thing on?
[49:53.560 --> 49:56.460]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I think most of them can store, I believe, up to 10 numbers.
[49:57.040 --> 49:58.560]  [SPEAKER_03]: But you can call it back.
[49:59.140 --> 50:03.400]  [SPEAKER_01]: There's a return call option, and that's another thing that kind of bothers me.
[50:04.020 --> 50:09.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: They're talking about return call feature, and you don't have to have caller ID to have that.
[50:09.840 --> 50:25.600]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not sure, maybe somebody in New Jersey could tell me this, but if you call somebody, and you put your privacy feature on, and then they hit the return call function on their telephone, well, then they're connected to you, and they can find out what your phone number was because they called you,
[50:25.700 --> 50:29.460]  [SPEAKER_01]: and they can ask the phone company, well, what's this number that shows up on my itemization?
[50:29.820 --> 50:30.120]  [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[50:30.240 --> 50:35.240]  [SPEAKER_01]: So it seems to me like maybe the privacy feature isn't really a privacy feature after all.
[50:35.560 --> 50:38.900]  [SPEAKER_03]: Now, you see, I don't list myself as I do what you said.
[50:39.180 --> 50:41.600]  [SPEAKER_03]: I've been doing it for years under another name.
[50:41.820 --> 50:42.020]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh-huh.
[50:42.140 --> 50:42.900]  [SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't cost anything.
[50:43.040 --> 50:43.820]  [SPEAKER_03]: It doesn't cost a thing.
[50:43.820 --> 50:47.160]  [SPEAKER_01]: And you can tell your friends that's what you're listed under in case they forget your number.
[50:47.340 --> 50:48.100]  [SPEAKER_03]: You don't have to do that.
[50:48.380 --> 50:54.300]  [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, one should, you know, really be able to say, I don't want to be listed, and not have to pay for it.
[50:54.600 --> 51:02.280]  [SPEAKER_03]: Like today, I got a call from somebody who I knew was calling me as a marketing thing because he used the name from the phone book.
[51:02.360 --> 51:02.680]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh-huh.
[51:02.860 --> 51:04.680]  [SPEAKER_03]: And I just said, you've got the wrong number.
[51:04.820 --> 51:05.900]  [SPEAKER_03]: It saves me a lot of time.
[51:06.060 --> 51:18.000]  [SPEAKER_03]: But because of the harassing phone calls, the only protection that I have under the guidance of the phone company and the police department is to leave my answer phone on all the time and screen my calls.
[51:18.700 --> 51:21.340]  [SPEAKER_03]: But they said something that really confused me.
[51:21.560 --> 51:27.840]  [SPEAKER_03]: The phone company said that if I keep the answer phone on and I don't pick up, there's no way they can trace the call.
[51:27.840 --> 51:32.880]  [SPEAKER_01]: That doesn't make any sense because your answering machine is picking up the phone just like you would.
[51:33.080 --> 51:33.340]  [SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[51:33.800 --> 51:36.340]  [SPEAKER_03]: So should I believe them or do they know what they're talking about?
[51:36.480 --> 51:40.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: That sounds like typical phone... and I don't take offense to this because you used to work for the phone company.
[51:40.540 --> 51:41.280]  [SPEAKER_03]: No, no, I'm not...
[51:41.280 --> 51:43.180]  [SPEAKER_01]: Typical phone company lack of understanding.
[51:43.520 --> 51:45.180]  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm not personally emotionally involved with them.
[51:45.260 --> 51:48.300]  [SPEAKER_03]: I have no investment in them except that I have to pay them for this phone service.
[51:48.440 --> 51:48.660]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh-huh.
[51:48.760 --> 51:59.820]  [SPEAKER_03]: But I mean, to tell me that I must... I said, well, what's the point of keeping my phone on, my answer phone on to screen these awful calls with my bell turned off so that I don't have to listen to them.
[51:59.980 --> 52:01.940]  [SPEAKER_03]: I can just listen to the person calling.
[52:02.280 --> 52:04.480]  [SPEAKER_03]: You know, I don't have to hear the phone ring every time.
[52:04.720 --> 52:04.940]  [SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[52:05.100 --> 52:08.100]  [SPEAKER_03]: If I don't want to listen to them calling, I just turn down the volume.
[52:08.280 --> 52:11.240]  [SPEAKER_03]: And then I have on tape what they said.
[52:11.380 --> 52:11.660]  [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[52:11.940 --> 52:15.940]  [SPEAKER_03]: But they said, if you don't pick up the phone, we can't do anything about it.
[52:16.020 --> 52:20.380]  [SPEAKER_01]: No, when your answering machine is picking up the phone, that's crazy what they're saying.
[52:20.380 --> 52:24.640]  [SPEAKER_01]: Unless they're telling you you have to stay on for a certain amount of time, but I don't think that's necessary anymore.
[52:24.740 --> 52:26.900]  [SPEAKER_03]: They also probably want to hear me say hello.
[52:27.280 --> 52:27.780]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh-huh.
[52:28.120 --> 52:31.100]  [SPEAKER_03]: To know that it's me who's getting the harassing phone call.
[52:31.220 --> 52:32.320]  [SPEAKER_03]: There may be something to that.
[52:32.480 --> 52:35.900]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, if that's what they want, they should tell you that, but I don't think that's what they want somehow.
[52:36.140 --> 52:46.160]  [SPEAKER_03]: The other thing that really upset me about this is that the police said that they, at first said that since I know who it is and I have her address and phone number, they would go and arrest her.
[52:46.400 --> 52:53.200]  [SPEAKER_03]: And then when I spoke to the detective, the detective said, we won't do anything until the phone company tells us that this person is calling you.
[52:53.360 --> 52:57.280]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I don't really know what the police, what the role of the police is here, but...
[52:57.280 --> 52:59.900]  [SPEAKER_03]: Apparently, they won't take my word for it.
[52:59.960 --> 53:05.860]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I mean, if you know who's calling you, the phone company can very easily determine if they call that number very easily, almost instantly.
[53:06.040 --> 53:14.540]  [SPEAKER_03]: I've already sent in the application, but what I just wanted to say is that it's a very murky field for the customer, this whole thing about privacy.
[53:14.840 --> 53:17.680]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, and the phone company is not making it any easier to see.
[53:17.680 --> 53:19.220]  [SPEAKER_03]: I appreciate your program.
[53:19.460 --> 53:19.680]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[53:20.220 --> 53:28.200]  [SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, this guy is really doing something that he complains about other people invading his privacy by calling him, but he's doing the same thing.
[53:28.280 --> 53:32.840]  [SPEAKER_03]: He should get a big keyhole and just walk around with it and he could feel like a foyer.
[53:33.840 --> 53:34.280]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[53:34.280 --> 53:35.400]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, thanks for calling.
[53:35.480 --> 53:35.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: Bye.
[53:36.560 --> 53:37.440]  [SPEAKER_01]: 279-3400.
[53:37.940 --> 53:38.600]  [SPEAKER_01]: Good evening.
[53:39.260 --> 53:39.820]  [SPEAKER_07]: This is WBAL.
[53:40.340 --> 53:40.920]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's what it is.
[53:40.960 --> 53:41.400]  [SPEAKER_01]: You're on the air.
[53:42.300 --> 53:42.940]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, yeah.
[53:43.920 --> 53:45.500]  [SPEAKER_07]: I'm following when he didn't get on the air.
[53:45.680 --> 53:47.520]  [SPEAKER_01]: You're on the air, so make the most of it.
[53:47.680 --> 53:47.940]  [SPEAKER_07]: No.
[53:48.160 --> 53:48.580]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.
[53:48.700 --> 53:52.040]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, I'm calling from New Jersey and I have a caller ID.
[53:52.320 --> 53:53.020]  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, jolly good.
[53:53.120 --> 53:53.300]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[53:53.380 --> 53:54.040]  [SPEAKER_01]: What's it like?
[53:54.280 --> 53:57.360]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, it's... Basically, it's a little small...
[53:58.100 --> 54:00.280]  [SPEAKER_07]: a little small unit that attaches to the phone.
[54:00.860 --> 54:03.400]  [SPEAKER_07]: When somebody calls, uh, their number is displayed.
[54:03.600 --> 54:06.440]  [SPEAKER_07]: But it's only displayed for the call within the area.
[54:06.680 --> 54:09.080]  [SPEAKER_07]: In other words, only in 201 area code.
[54:09.320 --> 54:10.720]  [SPEAKER_01]: Is it the whole area code?
[54:10.920 --> 54:11.700]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, yes.
[54:11.700 --> 54:12.420]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[54:13.000 --> 54:17.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, if a call is made from, say, uh, an operator-assisted call...
[54:17.580 --> 54:19.220]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, from an operator-assisted call?
[54:19.420 --> 54:19.640]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[54:19.780 --> 54:21.200]  [SPEAKER_01]: I believe that does not show up.
[54:21.820 --> 54:22.600]  [SPEAKER_07]: No, it wouldn't.
[54:22.880 --> 54:23.280]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[54:23.280 --> 54:26.480]  [SPEAKER_01]: And if a call is made from out of the area, you get a message saying it's out of the area?
[54:26.580 --> 54:30.060]  [SPEAKER_07]: I would get a message saying, uh, what...
[54:30.060 --> 54:33.840]  [SPEAKER_07]: It says, uh, I think it shows a bunch of question marks.
[54:34.340 --> 54:34.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh-huh.
[54:35.340 --> 54:40.860]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, you cannot, uh, do you have per call blocking yourself, or do you have per line blocking?
[54:40.860 --> 54:45.440]  [SPEAKER_07]: No, we have a thing where you can block it, but, uh, where you can block six calls.
[54:45.960 --> 54:47.180]  [SPEAKER_07]: Or six lines, rather.
[54:48.340 --> 54:49.940]  [SPEAKER_01]: You can block six lines?
[54:50.360 --> 54:50.720]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yep.
[54:50.900 --> 54:56.100]  [SPEAKER_07]: In other words, uh, John Jones, John Smith, John Brown, I can block their numbers if I want to.
[54:56.220 --> 54:57.140]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, that's not what I mean.
[54:57.200 --> 55:01.260]  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, when you're making a telephone call, and you don't want your number transmitted, what are your options?
[55:04.520 --> 55:05.540]  [SPEAKER_07]: I don't think I have any.
[55:05.940 --> 55:06.680]  [SPEAKER_01]: Ah, interesting.
[55:06.980 --> 55:14.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, well, you probably have an option where you can, uh, not have your number transmitted, but I suspect that you have to use that every time you make a call.
[55:14.920 --> 55:16.780]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, we haven't heard anything about it yet.
[55:17.140 --> 55:17.420]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh-huh.
[55:17.620 --> 55:19.240]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, they don't go out of their way to tell you these things.
[55:19.260 --> 55:19.820]  [SPEAKER_01]: I know that.
[55:20.260 --> 55:21.520]  [SPEAKER_07]: No, but I'll tell you one thing.
[55:21.640 --> 55:21.780]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[55:22.000 --> 55:34.820]  [SPEAKER_07]: The, uh, the caller ID is probably the best thing that has come up, because I've, uh, managed to call back a few of these, uh, annoying companies that call with, uh, uh, home renovation and, uh, you know, credit cards and this, that, and the other next.
[55:35.020 --> 55:36.420]  [SPEAKER_07]: I had managed to call them back.
[55:36.580 --> 55:39.180]  [SPEAKER_07]: Quite a few of them are right here in the same area code.
[55:39.340 --> 55:39.620]  [SPEAKER_09]: Uh-huh.
[55:40.100 --> 55:46.880]  [SPEAKER_07]: And, uh, I told them, look, uh, please remove, uh, this number from your computer, because these are all computer-generated, uh, calls.
[55:47.180 --> 55:47.480]  [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[55:48.040 --> 55:50.440]  [SPEAKER_07]: And, uh, it seems like it has worked.
[55:50.680 --> 55:53.640]  [SPEAKER_01]: Have you ever had to use it on something other than a company?
[55:54.140 --> 55:54.960]  [SPEAKER_07]: On a company?
[55:55.240 --> 55:56.140]  [SPEAKER_01]: Other than a company.
[55:57.120 --> 56:01.120]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, yeah, I've, uh, quite a few people have called here, and they've hung up.
[56:01.680 --> 56:07.460]  [SPEAKER_07]: And, uh, I called them right back and said, look, you know, the least you could do is have the common thesis to say, well, I'm sorry, I've reached the wrong number.
[56:07.940 --> 56:08.360]  [SPEAKER_09]: Uh-huh.
[56:08.460 --> 56:09.400]  [SPEAKER_07]: And they were shocked as hell.
[56:10.660 --> 56:13.880]  [SPEAKER_01]: So you think it'll, it'll make people a bit more courteous on the telephone?
[56:13.920 --> 56:14.480]  [SPEAKER_07]: I think so.
[56:14.660 --> 56:15.400]  [SPEAKER_07]: I think so.
[56:15.680 --> 56:15.940]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh-huh.
[56:16.140 --> 56:20.720]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, do you ever have the occasion where you want to call somebody and you don't want them to know who you are?
[56:21.100 --> 56:21.420]  [SPEAKER_07]: No.
[56:22.060 --> 56:24.020]  [SPEAKER_07]: You know, if I'm going to call you, I want you to know who I am.
[56:24.020 --> 56:24.440]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh-huh.
[56:24.460 --> 56:27.080]  [SPEAKER_01]: So you wouldn't have any objection to me having your phone number right here, even if...
[56:27.080 --> 56:27.620]  [SPEAKER_07]: No, I wouldn't.
[56:28.340 --> 56:32.200]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, well, you know, that's, uh, that's something I guess, uh, a lot of people feel.
[56:33.100 --> 56:35.940]  [SPEAKER_01]: But, uh, I don't know, I just, I just have problems with that.
[56:36.020 --> 56:39.960]  [SPEAKER_01]: I just have problems, you know, giving out that information that we never gave out before.
[56:40.280 --> 56:46.700]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, I'll say it this way, if I'm going to, if I'm going to make a call and I don't want you to know where I'm calling from, then I'll go to the local phone booth and make that call.
[56:54.020 --> 56:54.460]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh-huh.
[56:54.820 --> 56:57.780]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, it would show up, you know, if it's within the area code.
[56:57.920 --> 56:59.040]  [SPEAKER_01]: Unless they went through an operator.
[56:59.260 --> 57:01.860]  [SPEAKER_01]: Or unless they went through another long distance company or something.
[57:03.000 --> 57:03.400]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh...
[57:03.400 --> 57:05.200]  [SPEAKER_01]: Or if they blocked their line.
[57:05.360 --> 57:07.000]  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, there's all kinds of ways of doing that.
[57:07.320 --> 57:07.900]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, okay.
[57:08.140 --> 57:15.140]  [SPEAKER_07]: Very, very basically, I think that if someone were to, um, to call me and had their number blocked.
[57:15.400 --> 57:26.460]  [SPEAKER_07]: Say someone calling within the 201 area code, and they had their line blocked, and I could not identify, could identify from my caller ID unit, I doubt very much without answer.
[57:26.540 --> 57:31.120]  [SPEAKER_07]: I'd probably put on the, uh, you know, put on my recording machine and pick up, see what I picked up from that.
[57:31.560 --> 57:31.880]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh-huh.
[57:33.040 --> 57:34.940]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, thanks so much for enlightening us on that.
[57:35.020 --> 57:35.920]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, have a good evening.
[57:36.060 --> 57:36.320]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[57:37.080 --> 57:41.860]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, we're on the air for another, oh, three minutes or so, so let's try to get through these calls.
[57:42.140 --> 57:42.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: Good evening.
[57:43.460 --> 57:44.020]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, hi.
[57:44.240 --> 57:47.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, I think a lot of people have a lot of funny ideas about caller ID.
[57:48.400 --> 57:53.200]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, the only people who are, this is really going to catch, are people who don't understand it.
[57:53.980 --> 58:01.320]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, companies are going to take advantage of people who call them, uh, just asking for information, because big companies can afford, uh, reverse directories.
[58:01.640 --> 58:11.560]  [SPEAKER_05]: And once you call them, they have your number, they have your name, they have your address, they know how affluent your neighborhood is, and they can then try to pursue your business and, and torment you even more.
[58:12.200 --> 58:14.460]  [SPEAKER_05]: And they'll learn how to get around caller ID.
[58:14.680 --> 58:17.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: They can, they'll either block their line or call from a line that they don't answer from.
[58:18.200 --> 58:23.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: It really won't do... it won't prevent annoyance phone calls because those people figure out how to get around it.
[58:23.960 --> 58:31.040]  [SPEAKER_05]: Just people who don't understand it will end up giving away the keys to their privacy to the people they're calling without even knowing it.
[58:31.360 --> 58:36.520]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'd like people to come up with scenarios for potential abuses of caller ID that we're not thinking of now.
[58:36.640 --> 58:47.180]  [SPEAKER_01]: Like, let's say, as you say, when you call up, the person will... the company on the other end, say, we'll know where you're calling from, your street address, they'll be able to tie it into a database.
[58:47.520 --> 58:52.080]  [SPEAKER_01]: Let's say you call a pizza delivery place, and a pizza delivery place happens not to like your neighborhood.
[58:52.240 --> 58:58.100]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, they can just, you know, say, oh, we're not going to pick up that phone, or we'll just forward that to a busy signal or something like that.
[58:58.460 --> 59:03.660]  [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, they'll know all this information about you before you, you know, you even start talking.
[59:04.040 --> 59:06.240]  [SPEAKER_05]: A version of a telephone redlining almost.
[59:06.500 --> 59:06.700]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[59:06.980 --> 59:08.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: Very discriminatory.
[59:08.340 --> 59:10.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: I've got two quick questions that are related.
[59:10.440 --> 59:18.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'd like you to talk a little bit about how the 800 caller ID works, and whether there's ways to block that, and whether, you know, that applies to all 800 numbers.
[59:18.680 --> 59:25.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: And also, if you know personally of any reverse directories that are available for public use, I've heard libraries sometimes have them, but I've never seen them.
[59:26.120 --> 59:31.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I saw one once at a realtor's office, of course, they can afford the several hundred dollar lease on the books.
[59:31.780 --> 59:32.060]  [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[59:32.400 --> 59:36.720]  [SPEAKER_05]: But I've never seen public access to them, and I don't think the public's really aware that they exist.
[59:37.000 --> 59:37.220]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh-huh.
[59:37.360 --> 59:39.060]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, I'll try to address those.
[59:39.060 --> 59:44.280]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, there is the, uh, Kohl's directory, which, uh, has reverse information in it.
[59:44.300 --> 59:46.560]  [SPEAKER_01]: You look up the phone number, gives you the address and name.
[59:46.780 --> 59:49.320]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, you look up an address, it gives you the phone number and name.
[59:49.780 --> 59:53.140]  [SPEAKER_01]: And those, uh, those are available sometimes at libraries.
[59:53.280 --> 59:55.500]  [SPEAKER_01]: You have to ask around, ask if they have a Kohl's directory.
[59:55.960 --> 59:56.820]  [SPEAKER_01]: 800 numbers.
[59:57.020 --> 59:58.780]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's not called, uh, caller ID.
[59:58.960 --> 01:00:00.960]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's called ANI, Automatic Number Identification.
[01:00:00.960 --> 01:00:05.440]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's transmitted in a, in a different way through different, uh, switching systems.
[01:00:05.440 --> 01:00:07.480]  [SPEAKER_01]: I really don't have time to discuss right now, unfortunately.
[01:00:07.720 --> 01:00:13.080]  [SPEAKER_01]: And yes, you can block it by going through an operator or by going from an area that, uh, doesn't transmit that information.
[01:00:13.220 --> 01:00:13.760]  [SPEAKER_01]: One more call.
[01:00:14.240 --> 01:00:14.660]  [SPEAKER_01]: Good evening.
[01:00:15.080 --> 01:00:16.260]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, WBAI?
[01:00:16.280 --> 01:00:16.800]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, go ahead.
[01:00:17.280 --> 01:00:17.940]  Uh, team,
[01:00:22.800 --> 01:00:23.460]  [SPEAKER_07]: and your address.
[01:00:23.600 --> 01:00:24.960]  [SPEAKER_07]: I want to send him a note.
[01:00:25.160 --> 01:00:26.740]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, I'll, I'll do that on the air.
[01:00:26.900 --> 01:00:27.900]  [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for, for listening.
[01:00:28.160 --> 01:00:34.260]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, Ms. Shukaku, if I recollect correctly, is M-I-C-H-I-O-K-A-K-U is the, uh, last name.
[01:00:34.420 --> 01:00:38.760]  [SPEAKER_01]: And the address is 505 8th Avenue, New York, New York, 10018.
[01:00:39.220 --> 01:00:40.180]  [SPEAKER_01]: But that's not my name.
[01:00:40.260 --> 01:00:41.320]  [SPEAKER_01]: My name's Emmanuel Goldstein.
[01:00:41.500 --> 01:00:46.360]  [SPEAKER_01]: So if you want to comment on the program, yes, uh, send something to that name.
[01:00:46.560 --> 01:00:49.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, real quickly now, as we round things out,
[01:00:52.660 --> 01:01:01.160]  [SPEAKER_01]: a couple of telephone numbers for, uh, people interested in decoding caller ID without getting phone company equipment.
[01:01:01.460 --> 01:01:07.380]  [SPEAKER_01]: Um, the International Micro Power Corporation, 800-992-3511.
[01:01:08.600 --> 01:01:17.080]  [SPEAKER_01]: And, uh, a couple of things that, uh, are in this issue of 2600, uh, let's see, uh, a company called Bug Busters out in Long Island.
[01:01:17.440 --> 01:01:19.540]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, you can, uh, write to them at P.O.
[01:01:19.580 --> 01:01:26.740]  [SPEAKER_01]: Box 978, Shore of New York, 11786, or fax them at 516-929-0772.
[01:01:27.620 --> 01:01:30.220]  [SPEAKER_01]: And, uh, uh, there's a company up in Buffalo.
[01:01:30.680 --> 01:01:35.040]  [SPEAKER_01]: You can reach them at 716-691-3476.
[01:01:37.420 --> 01:01:38.980]  [SPEAKER_01]: And they're called E-D-E.
[01:01:39.060 --> 01:01:40.160]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's the program for this week.
[01:01:40.520 --> 01:01:43.120]  [SPEAKER_01]: Stay tuned for the personal computer show.
[01:01:43.220 --> 01:01:44.100]  [SPEAKER_01]: This is Emmanuel Goldstein.
[01:01:44.180 --> 01:01:47.500]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'll be back again next week for another exciting edition of Off The Hook.
[01:01:47.720 --> 01:01:47.920]  [SPEAKER_01]: Good night.
[01:01:48.760 --> 01:01:50.920]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now I can't make a call.
[01:01:51.600 --> 01:01:53.720]  [SPEAKER_02]: It couldn't get much worse.
[01:01:54.480 --> 01:01:56.340]  [SPEAKER_02]: But if they could, they would.
[01:01:56.620 --> 01:01:59.320]  [SPEAKER_02]: Bum diddly bom for the best, expect the worst.
[01:02:00.000 --> 01:02:01.880]  [SPEAKER_02]: I hope that's understood.
[01:02:02.200 --> 01:02:02.900]  [SPEAKER_02]: Bum diddly bom!