On October 7th, the Supreme Court of the United States will open its fall session in Washington, D.C.
If you agree that the court is packed with conservatives who keep handing down decisions that are seriously threatening the civil liberties of all Americans,
then you may want to join Refuse and Resist for the October Surprise,
a day of speaking out and protesting through a march, a rally, and street theater at the Supreme Court in Washington, D.C.
For more information about the October Surprise on October 7th, or for information about transportation to Washington, D.C., call 212-340-4173.
This has been a public service announcement of WBAI on behalf of Refuse and Resist, a non-for-profit organization.
And this is WBAI in New York.
Stay tuned now for Off the Hook.
The telephone keeps ringing
So I ripped it off the wall
I cut myself while shaving
Now I can't make a call
It couldn't get much worse
But if they could, they would
Bum diddly bum for the best, expect the worst
I hope that's understood
Bum diddly bum
I go home
To me
Oh my God
Please try to open racer
To me
And I do
tell
What is
To me
To me
To me
So
Let's
Delft
To me
Thank you.
And the program is off the hook tonight.
We're going to be talking about caller ID.
So if you have it, call us.
If you don't have it, call us.
We'll be answering some questions and raising a few of our own.
Stay tuned.
We'll be right back.
Now you might find it as an import someplace, I suppose.
Don Letts and Company here on WBAI.
The program is off the hook.
And that's about all the music we're going to be taking care of tonight because we have important details to attend to, something that will no doubt be affecting all of us.
In fact, I guess I say that every week when we do this show about technology and emerging things on your telephone and computer, they do affect us all somehow in some way.
But this particular thing is going to be affecting us, but this particular thing is going to change the rules, so to say, when you pick up the telephone and make a phone call.
We have certain assumptions, we have certain assumptions when we pick up the phone call somebody, the phone rings, they pick it up, say hello, and we identify ourselves.
But we no longer have to do that, but we no longer have to do that, at least we won't have to do that, at least we won't have to in the future if all the phone companies get their way.
When we call somebody, they'll know before they pick up the receiver who we are, or at least what number we're calling from.
Now, there have been quite a few developments on this in the past few weeks.
You may not have heard too much about it in the newspapers, but if you keep your eyes open, you'll hear a thing or two.
One rather disturbing development came from the Federal Communications Commission.
In fact, nothing but disturbing development seemed to come from the Federal Communications Commission lately.
But this one had to do with interstate telecommunications.
And in this particular case, the FCC sided once again with the phone companies, recommending that phone companies not provide a service known as all-call blocking.
Now, what all-call blocking is, is a service provided to customers who can get caller ID, and that service allows you to get your phone off that system.
In other words, every time you pick up the phone and call somebody, the default setting will be to not transmit your number.
That will be how you are seen in the network.
Now, what the phone companies want to do, they don't want to provide that service.
They only want to provide what is known as per-call blocking.
In other words, you'll have to dial a specific code before every call you make.
And you'll have to consciously say to yourself, I do not want my number to be transmitted every time you make a call.
And that's the only kind of call blocking they wish to offer.
The FCC, last week, agreed with that and said phone companies should not have to do that.
Now, Governor Mario Cuomo, on Friday, last Friday, vetoed a bill that would have set standards for a caller ID plan
and that will allow the State Public Service Commission to proceed with hearings on the controversial proposal.
Now, reading from an article in Newsday, dated this Saturday,
caller ID displays the phone number of the person calling on the receiver's telephone.
And much of the controversy, as we have said, involves how callers could prevent their numbers from being displayed.
Now, the bill, which has been introduced by Assemblyman Gerald Nadler, who is a Democrat right here in Manhattan,
and backed by New York Telephone, proposed free per-call blocking and per-line blocking at a one-time charge.
Per-call blocking means that if callers want to prevent their numbers from being displayed at the other end,
they would have to press star-6-7 each time they make a call.
That's the special command that you would have to issue every time you made a call, star-6-7.
State Consumer Protection Board Executive Director Richard Kessel, who asked Cuomo to veto the bill,
wants consumers to be able to block their phone line once and forever for free, known as per-line blocking,
or as we've been referring to it, all-call blocking, I believe, is one of the other terms.
Caller ID is now being offered in 11 states.
New Jersey is one of them.
I'd love to hear some people over there in New Jersey tell us how Caller ID is working out for you,
and how it's not working out, and various other things you might be able to fill us in on.
Because this is something that, being here in New York, it's a new technology.
We can't play with it yet.
We want to be able to play with it, but it's just not at that stage yet.
Now, don't get me wrong.
I like playing with new kinds of technology, and this might be kind of interesting to have around.
But when you force it down somebody's throat, oh, that's the difference.
That is the difference.
And if you look at these telephone company commercials,
we get the Bell Atlantic commercials here because we're next to New Jersey,
they make it seem as if you're going to be murdered in your sleep if you don't get Caller ID
because there won't be any way to identify all these crazy people out there that are always calling you.
Now, I ask you, how much of a problem has it really been?
Yeah, we all get annoying phone calls now and then.
We all get that occasional crank.
Sometimes we even get obscene phone calls.
But do we really live our lives in fear so that we want to know every time that phone rings who's on the other end?
Do we really want to lose that certain element of privacy?
And I say this because it's something we've grown accustomed to.
Now, yeah, we don't have anything to hide when we call our friend and say, you know, it's me on the phone.
We don't have anything to hide for the most part.
But there are those occasions where you don't want to be identified,
where you're calling another auto mechanic from your loyal order mechanic.
You don't want to be seen as the person calling somebody else.
You know, sometimes you want to do things on the telephone and they can't see you,
so why should they be able to know who you are?
It doesn't mean you're up to no good.
It just means you don't want to identify yourself.
There's nothing wrong with that.
However, after looking at these Bell TV commercials
and after seeing how caller ID is being thrown into our faces
and having been told that every time you want to remain private,
you're going to have to dial star 6-7,
then all of a sudden, each time we decide to do this,
it's kind of like we're committing a little crime, you know?
It's kind of like we're trying to hide something,
even though we're not hiding something.
We're being made to feel guilty for wanting to remain anonymous.
Now, there's nothing at all wrong with being anonymous.
Being anonymous is not synonymous with being guilty of something or being sneaky.
It just means you value your privacy.
Up until now, we've had plenty of privacy on the telephone.
We're able to, say, call a radio talk show, as we're asking people to do now,
279-3400, area code 212.
I don't know who you are.
I don't know where you're calling from.
And I don't want to know.
It's none of my business.
But with caller ID, I'll be able to find out your phone number
and your name on top of that,
because the two are pretty much synonymous these days.
And we can just keep going from that point on
and find out all kinds of neat little things.
Now, think twice about this.
Is this the kind of service you really want?
I think caller ID can be used for very beneficial purposes.
I think people, lots of times, will want to announce their presence
before the phone is picked up.
But to force it down people's throats and to say,
we have to have this for the good of society,
because if we don't have it, the telephone's going to erupt in anarchy.
You're going to get nothing but obscene phone callers
and people trying to sell you things you don't want
and rip off your money and all that kind of thing.
And to say that, you know, it's making everybody afraid.
It's putting that element of fear into it.
My opinion is that the only reason the phone company is so into this
is because it's a moneymaker.
And I can prove this, too.
Latest issue of 2600 just came out.
Okay, it's a summer issue and it's autumn.
We know that. It's late.
We're going to try to get the autumn issue out before winter.
There is an article in here.
We entitled it The Class Struggle,
because these caller ID things are part of class service in many places.
And class stands for something.
I don't know what the initials stand for,
but it's one of those neat little phone company things.
Okay, first paragraph here.
This is from some internal documents that were forwarded to us.
Internal Belcor documents.
Very simple here.
The definition of caller ID.
What is caller ID?
Here we go.
Belcor definition.
Caller ID is referred to here as calling number delivery,
which is another initial thing there, CND.
Okay?
Calling number delivery.
CND is a revenue-producing service
intended for residential and business telephone customers.
A revenue-producing service.
That is it in a nutshell.
Now, of course, they're going to make money on anything they do,
no matter what it is.
But it's primarily there to produce revenue.
Don't forget that.
That's what it's all about.
That's what the phone company is in this for, to make money.
That's why they still charge you for touch tones
when there is absolutely nothing to charge you for.
Revenue-producing service.
Now, look upon it in that light
and then see why the phone companies are so intense
in their arguments to get people to not use all-call blocking
but only per-line blocking.
If all-call blocking were available to everybody for free,
well, would you take it?
Would you opt to have your number be private?
Or would you opt to have your number displayed
every time you called someplace?
You'd probably go for the privacy function
because you value privacy.
If not, other people would.
The more people that do,
the less money New York Telephone will make
because, A, less people will be using the service
and, B, the people that look at the phone numbers
that come across their screen
will see more private numbers than anything.
They'll just see little Ps for private,
meaning the person doesn't want to say who they are.
And if people cannot block their numbers
unless they dial that special code, star 6-7,
well, some of them are going to forget.
Some of them just will not do it.
And some of them will say,
who cares, I'll let my number be transmitted.
And they'll accept the fact
that it's been rammed down their throat.
So more numbers will show up on the caller ID screen
and the person subscribing to caller ID will say,
hey, this service works.
I can see the phone numbers.
That's really what it's all about.
If less people get it,
the service is not valuable.
If more people are forced to participate,
then the service pays off.
$6.75 a month for every customer that subscribes to that,
I believe, is the cost.
Anyway, we should applaud Governor Cuomo
for vetoing that bill, I believe,
because it enables the public,
the general public out there,
to speak out a little bit more on this issue.
And I don't see how that can be a bad thing,
no matter where this all ends up.
Mario Cuomo said he vetoed the bill
to allow the public a fuller opportunity to be heard.
And the Public Service Commission
is holding hearings on the company's plan.
And Administrative Law Judge John Bernu
is expected to make a recommendation
by year's end
for a PSC vote early next year.
The Federal Communications Commission this week,
or actually last week,
recommended per-call blocking
and rejected per-line blocking.
I guess it's probably easier
if we use the same terminology here,
so we'll call it per-line blocking.
The FCC controls long-distance service.
States regulate usage within their boundaries.
So, at the moment,
that FCC action really
won't affect us within the state of New York,
but it will affect things
going from state to state.
And we're not quite sure how yet.
We're still looking into that.
212-279-3400.
The question we're asking is,
do you think Caller ID is a good idea?
Do you subscribe to Caller ID?
And if it's available in the future in your area,
will you subscribe to it?
Or will you elect to remain private?
212-279-3400.
Good evening.
Oh, yeah, hi.
How you doing?
Yeah, I don't, you know,
I don't particularly see
all that much wrong with Caller ID.
Personally, you know,
it's someone calling me.
I mean, as much as Caller ID
is an invasion of the privacy
of the person calling,
someone calling me
is an invasion of my privacy.
Well, I mean,
do you look on all your phone calls
as an invasion of your privacy
or just the phone ringing,
find out who it is?
I mean,
how many times do you pick up the phone
and you don't know who it is
after you've started talking?
Oh, not very often.
Uh-huh.
You see,
I would support a bill,
how about this,
a bill that says
all businesses
have to send their number
when they're calling.
That way,
all those marketing things
that you get,
those things will identify themselves.
I can't think of an application
for a business
calling somebody anonymously.
Yeah, you know,
those are the times,
you know,
when I usually feel
that my privacy is being violated.
I'm just sitting down
to have some dinner
and all those marketing nimrods,
they all know that,
you know,
that that's the perfect time to call.
But you want to hear something
kind of ironic, sir.
Yeah.
Caller ID won't help you there
because a lot of those,
a lot of those calls
come from outside your local area,
don't they?
I really,
I don't have caller ID,
so I wouldn't know.
Well,
these people are calling you
from other states lots of times.
Oh,
oh,
I didn't realize
that it doesn't work,
it doesn't work out of the,
out of your area code?
Yeah,
and you know,
that's something,
they don't go out of their way
to tell you that,
do they?
No,
they don't.
There are so many ways
for an obscene caller
or a harassing caller
to get through
without transmitting their numbers,
so their argument
is shot down
in that respect,
too.
Uh-huh.
How about,
I'm curious
if you plan
to do a show,
perhaps,
or if you have
any comments
on the bill
that just passed
Congress.
Oh,
heck,
what was the number,
the one
regarding the ECPA
and how they're going to,
how they want to stop
the manufacture
and sale
of any kind of radio
that can pick up
the 800 megahertz
cellular band?
Well,
that's already been passed,
has it not?
The Electronic Communications
Privacy Act of,
what was it,
1986?
Now is,
they want to take it
a step further.
The ECPA,
I guess,
didn't go far enough
because,
as you might know,
as you might not know,
most of the radios
on the market
these days
that have had
that area blocked out
are easily modifiable
to include,
to bring that range
of frequencies
back in.
Now,
It's a ridiculous law.
It's a ridiculous law
to prohibit somebody
from listening
to a public airwave
and it's totally
unenforceable,
too.
Absolutely.
Well,
I don't know about
how unenforceable it is.
What they want to do
at this point now
is they want to make
the FCC
reject certification
of these radios
that have that capability
and require the manufacturers
to go beyond
just locking out
that area.
In other words,
if the radio,
they want to take it
a step further
so if the radio
can be modified
to receive
that frequency range,
they want to make
that those radios
are not certifiable
or import
into this country.
Well,
I think that's atrocious.
It's a waste of time.
If they really
were interested
in privacy,
they would encrypt
the conversations
on the cellular phone calls.
Now,
tell me,
for instance,
why is it not illegal
to listen to a mobile phone call?
In other words,
a portable telephone,
one of those cheap things
you buy someplace,
it's perfectly legal
to listen in on that.
In fact,
law enforcement
can use things
that you say
on those phones
against you.
We're talking
regular cordless phones here.
But cellular phones
have to be protected
by a law.
It seems to me
that this has got
something to do
with income.
Rich people
use cellular phones.
Poor people
use cordless phones.
Poor people
have to settle
for the poor technology
they get.
And rich people
are protected
by some crazy law
that is completely
unenforceable
in the first place.
One case
that I heard of
was down in Alabama
where state police
in and around the,
what is it,
Montgomery
is the state capital
of Alabama?
Uh-huh.
The state police
in and around Montgomery
used scanners,
I guess,
to,
to,
to,
what's the word
I'm looking for,
to expand
their,
their,
the reception,
you know,
their radio,
their radio's coverage.
And,
and it turned out
that some of the
state police
down there
were actually
listening in
to various
state legislators
as they
made certain
phone calls
on their
cellular phones.
Uh-huh.
And as a matter
of fact,
there were some
state legislatures,
some state
legislators
were overheard
talking to,
say,
perhaps
a prostitute
or perhaps
making
not,
not quite
above-board
deals
on their
cellular phones.
And that really,
down in Alabama,
anyway,
you know,
that,
that really,
that really created
quite a stir
down there.
I believe some of,
one of the local
papers,
newspapers down there
picked up on,
on that story.
And,
uh,
I can imagine
that there's a lot
of,
a lot of these,
these kind of,
uh,
these deal makers
you know,
as far as like
lobbyists and,
and,
you know,
politicians and
lobbyists,
um,
that,
that they probably
use their cellular
phones quite a bit
to perform all kinds
of,
uh,
um,
you know,
make all kinds
of deals and stuff
that they probably
just as soon not
have anybody know
about.
So it's,
it's more,
they're,
they're more,
I can imagine
that,
as you say,
you know,
it's the,
the rich people
that are,
that are using
the cellular phones
as opposed to
the poor people
that are using
the cordless phones.
But I,
I would say,
you know,
in my experience
from,
from the people
that I know
that use cellular,
you know,
mostly it's,
it's like construction
guys that have to
travel from job
to job and yet
check in at a desk
and stuff.
And there's,
they,
they really couldn't
care less,
you know,
if somebody overhears
what they're talking
about on their
cellular phone,
because mostly it's
like,
well,
I'm at such and
such address,
and the secretary
says,
well,
now you have to
go to such and
such address.
Well,
you don't want
to be overheard
no matter where
you are.
Unless you're on
the radio,
you're not broadcasting
your conversation
to everybody.
A lot of people
using cellular phones
have no idea
how easy it is
to be overheard.
No idea.
All they need
is a little sticker
on the side
that says,
you know,
that says that
this telephone,
or,
you know,
that this telephone
is not a private,
you know,
that you should not
expect the privacy
out of this telephone
as you would a landline.
all the police departments
and law enforcement
agencies are well
aware of the non-private
capacity of a cellular
phone that basically
anybody can listen
in just as well
as most people do.
Anyone can listen
in to their conversations
on their police radios.
And that's,
a lot of amateur
radio operators
and scanner enthusiasts
like myself feel
that that's the next
step is where
they're going to go.
there has already been,
there has already been
recommendations brought up
to the FCC
to block out,
to have,
have public service
bans blocked out
from these scanners
which would basically
eliminate anyone's
real requirement
or any,
any entertainment value
from,
from owning a scanner
which is,
it's basically
what I listen to.
I personally,
I've,
I've,
being the anonymous.
Don't incriminate.
yourself.
But I am,
I can say that,
you know,
I've listened to
cellular phone calls
on my scanner
and they're really
pretty boring,
you know.
Well,
most of them
are boring,
but most conversations
in general are boring.
And you can hear
phone conversations
on the shortwave too
and you can hear them
on satellite receivers,
all kinds of things.
Ship to shore
and last week
I called Robert Knight's
program because
he was making
a big thing
about how this guy
in Saudi Arabia,
I'm sorry,
not Saudi Arabia,
the guy in Baghdad,
the,
Dave or something,
the head of that UN,
the UN inspection team
that the Iraqis
were claiming
he was a CIA agent.
And Robert Knight
was making a big deal
about,
well,
gee,
how come this guy
has this satellite telephone
that he can call up
all these news media services?
And I called him
and explained,
well,
that's not all that specialized,
a piece of hardware,
that all you need
is the money
to go out and buy one
and they're not
all that expensive.
More expensive
is the connect time
on the satellite,
is having the dedicated
satellite time.
And I'm sure
that was picked up
by the networks.
Listen, sir,
we're going to move on.
Okay.
Thanks for calling.
And we are talking
about caller ID tonight,
not radios.
But we're branching
into other things,
I guess.
Caller ID
and the advantages
and disadvantages.
Let me read you
a little bit
from one of these
internal documents
that are floating around
in the Bell system.
When calling number delivery,
CND,
as caller ID
is officially referred to,
when CND
is activated
on a line,
the DNs,
okay,
DNs are directory numbers,
in other words,
your phone number,
DNs of terminating calls
are transmitted
to the called
CPE.
Okay,
that's customer
premises equipment.
In other words,
your phone.
For an inter-office call,
which basically calls
between two different
central offices,
one area to another,
the caller's DN
is transmitted
from the originating
stored program
controlled system,
SPCS,
to which the calling
party is connected
to the terminating SPCS,
to which the call party
is connected
during call setup.
It is then transmitted
from the terminating
SPCS
to the customer
premises equipment.
I'll just say
to the telephone
to make it easier
to understand.
And it's transmitted
to that phone
during the first
long silent interval
of the ringing cycle
between the first
and second rings.
That is when
the information
is transmitted.
If you pick up
the phone
on the first ring,
you don't get it.
That's a rather
interesting feature there.
And they define
a long silent interval
as an interval
of silence
lasting three
or more seconds.
For an intra-office call,
which is calls
within the same
central office,
the caller's phone number
is retrieved
from SPCS memory
for transmission
to the receiving phone.
And then,
depending on the options
offered by the receiving phone
or other equipment
in the customer's premises,
the phone number
is displayed
and or printed out.
And the customer
might also arrange
to store the number
for later retrieval.
And these options
are transparent
and all kinds
of other technical things.
But what they basically
say here is that
this transmission
of data
should never take place
while the customer,
while the called customer
is in an off-hook state.
So you won't get this
on, say,
call waiting,
for instance.
It's not transmitted
in situations like that.
They seem to devote
a lot of time
to that particular scenario,
in fact.
Also,
C&D service
allows the called
CPE or telephone
to receive
a four-digit
or a longer
personal identification
number
instead of the
calling number.
This personal
identification number
would be dialed
by the calling party
as part of the
calling sequence.
So in other words,
you can leave
any number you want.
You can enter
any number you want
instead of your phone number.
That might be
a better system.
You know,
that way it's up
to you,
the caller,
to decide
what you want
to be known as.
You know?
And let's say
we had a bunch
of people
on the phone line here.
Well,
one person wants
to talk about this.
They tap in
a certain combination
of predetermined numbers
to tell me
that that's what
they want to talk about
and I go to
that caller next.
Another person
types in
one, two, three,
meaning something else.
I go to them.
Rather than have
the phone number
show up,
which is certainly
an invasion of privacy
if you're calling
a radio talk show.
This particular
personal identification
code would,
as I said,
be dialed by
the calling party
and receiving
that personal
identification code
would indicate
that the call
is from someone
that the call party
probably wants
to talk to,
even though the call
might be from a line
having a phone number
that would not
have been recognized,
like a pay phone.
I'd like to know
people who have
caller ID,
is that a problem?
Do you get a lot
of phone numbers
that you don't know
who they are
because people
are calling
from pay phones
or people are
calling from
other people's houses
so you get all
confused?
Give us a call.
279-3400.
Good evening.
Hello?
Yes.
What kind of phone
are you on?
I'm on one of
those caller's phones.
Yeah, I thought so.
Okay.
I'm being heard on.
Listen, I saw you on
Now It Can't Be Told
of Geraldo Rivera.
Oh, God.
Yeah, at least
somebody would bring
that up.
You're much different
from when I expected
you to look.
I'll say this.
Geraldo has sunk
to new lows.
I didn't think
it was possible,
but he distorted
that story beyond
all recognition,
and I'm sure
most of BAI's
listeners are
intelligent enough
to see through
the garbage
that was displayed.
Computer hackers
aren't out there
working with
Saddam Hussein
or Abu Nadal
or anybody like that
plotting the overthrow
of the world.
That videotape
was released
by Dutch hackers
so that the
Defense Department
of this country
would learn something.
Hopefully they have,
but if they believe
what Geraldo says,
I pray for all of us,
and I'm an agnostic.
It was interesting.
I thought it was
kind of misleading,
but I thought it was
interesting, though.
And I thought Geraldo
was a bit slanted.
I don't know why, though.
Well, because he's always
a bit slanted.
I don't know.
Maybe it's a requirement
for him or something.
No, he normally,
he's a very progressive,
liberal, you know.
Well, I don't think
he knew anything
about the subject.
People kind of a person,
but I know.
I don't think he really
understood what he was
talking about because
it was obvious he didn't
know anything about
what computer hackers were.
Oh, yeah.
I'd be amazed
if he even looked
at what we were doing.
Listen, I need 2600,
the magazine,
the address
of how to get it.
OK, well, you can
probably find it
in a bookstore
downtown someplace,
but if you want
our address,
I can give you
the address,
but I can't give
prices or anything
like that,
or I'll get shot.
It's 2600,
post office box 752,
Middle Island, New York,
and the zip code
is 11953.
You mentioned a bookstore
in Lower Manhattan?
Yeah, try Tower,
try Hudson News,
try St. Mark's.
St. Mark's Bookstore.
Yeah.
They'll probably have it,
right?
Yeah, in fact,
St. Mark's even plays
WBAI.
They might even be
listening to us now.
So, yeah,
try them first, I guess.
Tell them to hold
a copy for me.
Do you have any thoughts
on caller ID
so we don't stray too far?
It's a rip-off.
You know, it's a squeeze
by the phone company.
You know, they set a caller ID
for paranoid people,
and then they call
caller blocking
for paranoid people.
But listen,
they're going to make money.
This is America.
I love it,
but what can I say?
Well, I think you said
quite a bit there.
Where are you calling from?
I'm calling from Queens.
Queens.
So you don't have it yet.
New York doesn't have it.
Only New Jersey has it.
Right.
Do you know anybody
over there that has it?
In Queens?
In New Jersey.
No.
Well, do you think
you'll get it
when it comes to Queens?
No, I don't.
I won't get caller ID,
and I won't get caller
call blocking.
Because I'm a boring guy,
and who the hell
wants to know about me?
Well, don't degrade yourself,
but...
I mean, you know,
plus six bucks a month,
that's the price, right?
That's a bit too expensive
for me.
What Richard Kessel
is trying to accomplish
is to force New York Telephone
to offer what we have now,
basically,
which is a privacy feature
when you make a phone call,
to offer that
without charging anything.
So if that was available,
would you get that?
I can find the hide
when I call people, you know.
I call friends,
I call government
or businesses.
You know,
I don't harass people
with a phone.
I don't really need
a call blocking.
Uh-huh.
Well, I mean,
maybe you have to call
something anonymously.
I mean,
there must have been
a time in your life
when you had to
make a phone call,
and you didn't want
the person on the other end
to know exactly
where you were
or who you were.
Well, maybe for a phone sex line,
but other than that,
I see no other reason
to block my phone number.
Uh-huh.
You know?
Well, if you lead a,
you know,
a life out there
in the open
where everybody
can always identify
what you're doing,
I guess it's good for that,
but I don't know.
You know,
I don't want to always
be identified
as who I am
when I'm calling somebody
because, really,
if you call somebody
to find out something,
like you call the local store
to find out
how much eggs are this week,
do they really have
the right to know,
you know,
your phone number
because of that?
You know,
it seems kind of weird.
At the same time,
you know,
I'm not going to
make a big deal
if they do call me
and say eggs are this price.
You know,
I just say thank you
and hang up.
Because they could store
your number from then on.
That's another thing
that people are very concerned about.
They could attach a device
to their computer,
hook it into the phone line
and save all the phone numbers
that call them
and then zap them right back
with all kinds of
junk phone calls.
That's true.
Listen,
I never got my number
unlisted in the first place
and I...
Well,
there's no reason
to get...
For that service,
I don't bother taking it
because...
There's no reason
for anybody
to have an unlisted
phone number
and I'll tell you why
because it doesn't cost
anything to list
your phone number
under a fake name.
So listing it
under a fake name
is just the same
as having it unlisted
except you don't have
to pay something
every month
for absolutely nothing.
I mean,
think about it.
We get programmed
into the most ridiculous
things by the phone company.
We have to pay
not to have our name
in a book
every month.
I mean,
that's the craziest thing
I've ever heard.
What kind of maintenance
is there
in not having your name
in a book?
Somebody please
explain that to me.
I am the wrong person.
No, I didn't expect you to
but I'd like somebody
to try and explain
that twisted logic to me.
Hey, listen.
Emmanuel.
Yeah.
Why?
You have pretty long hair.
You know that?
I'm sorry?
You have pretty long hair.
Well, yeah.
You know,
it's useful for some things.
Listen,
there was a part
of the news story
in which
they had the guys
from the
who were at
the meat market area
and they were
breaking into
the government agencies.
Well, now,
look at the story.
Were they breaking
into government agencies
or were they simply
using a portable computer
at a payphone
in the meatpacking district?
You see,
that's one of the things
Geraldo sort of
made look like
it wasn't.
You see,
people use portable terminals
at payphones all the time
and they're not
committing crimes.
Yeah, I understand.
The point is that
you can use
portable terminals.
You can use
any kind of terminal
and the real,
you know,
the real crux
of the matter,
in my opinion,
is the fact that
Defense Department
computers are wide open.
That should have been
what the story
was all about.
Unfortunately,
that part of it
seemed to have
gotten lost.
You know,
oh,
I'm not going to say that.
There's another thing.
Hello?
Yeah, go ahead.
No, I don't really know
what he was referring to.
Yeah, the GAO
is always making reports.
I don't think
they do anything else.
Yeah, well,
you know,
some report about
the financial markets,
about how safe
they were to
computer crime
or computer privacy,
whatever it was.
And I want
to look up
that report myself
and see what
the government says.
Well,
I can give you
a phone number
of Now It Can Be Told
and you can call them.
And I'll give it
to everybody out there
that wants to
air their comments
about that program.
2-1-2-9-5-6-1-thousand.
Call that number
and let them know
what you think.
Now It Can Be Told.
I like Geraldo Rivera.
Okay, well,
that's your right
in this country,
I guess,
but, you know,
when certain things
are just distorted,
you have to
make some sort of a comment.
But, you know,
you've got to like the guy.
Well, you know,
he's a funny guy.
I support his right
to breathe air
around here.
That's about it, though.
That's about as far
as I'll go.
He's an okay guy.
He wrote that stupid book,
all right?
Yeah, I won't even get into that
because I won't stoop
to his level.
Thanks for calling, though.
279-3400.
We're talking about
caller ID,
at least we're trying to.
Good evening.
Hello.
How are you doing?
Okay.
When you said about
the telephone
that they want to...
Turn your radio down, please.
I'm sorry.
I have a...
To issue
the identification cards
or the numbers
or whatever.
Call her ID.
It will display
your phone number.
Is it just
when I call from Manhattan,
let's say,
to Queens
or from Manhattan
to Bronx
or from Manhattan
to Long Island
or something?
Well, it doesn't exist yet,
but when it...
This is what
they wanted to do?
When it does exist,
you're right,
it will only be for a limited...
I don't want to exist.
I hope not.
Okay, well,
that's a good opinion.
I'd like to hear
that opinion
a little bit more.
But, yes,
it will only exist
for a limited area.
In other words,
if you called,
say, Pennsylvania,
no, it would not
show up there,
but it would show up
for the local area,
certainly 212,
718,
possibly Long Island.
I'm not sure
exactly how far
it will go,
but for the moment
it's pretty limited.
Okay, and this is
Mr. Cuomo
already vetoed, right?
Well, he vetoed
what they were
trying to force through,
which was basically
a bill that would
allow them to charge
to block your line.
Now, Cuomo's view...
Actually, I don't know
if it's Cuomo's view,
but I know it's
Richard Kessel's view,
is that this should be free.
We should not have to pay
to keep our number private,
and we should be able
to do it all the time.
I pay, and I keep
my number private,
and many times
they wake me up
in the middle of the night.
Which is this?
Manhattan, right here,
29th Street.
You're on 35,
I'm on 29th.
Well, there's all kinds
of hassles that will
arise from this, I'm sure.
You know, people will
get your phone number
when you call them,
and then they'll
have your phone number.
No, I don't usually call.
I'm a person who,
unless it's absolutely necessary,
but I guess people
make combinations.
I don't know what they do.
I pay all my life.
I never had my telephone
in the book,
because I don't want
to...
Do you have any kind
of problem
with harassing phone calls?
I used to, yeah.
I used to, yeah.
That's why I put it
like this,
but I know
my telephone is tapped.
You know your telephone
is tapped?
Yes.
Well, let me just ask
how you know that.
I know it.
Okay.
Sometimes I might
just stop there
to tell you.
Well, then let me
say at this point
hello to everybody
that's listening
on your telephone line.
No, what?
They can listen.
I don't give a damn.
Yeah.
What I would like
to ask you,
is it going to be
done through interstate?
Right now,
they don't have
any public plans
that I'm aware
of to make it
interstate.
The capability
certainly will exist
to do this,
and yes,
they will eventually
move to have this
all over the country.
In other words,
you'll call somebody
in Los Angeles
and your phone number
will pop up
on their phone.
Like Washington
or Virginia
or what I call?
Everywhere.
Eventually,
that is what
they're aiming for.
It's very obvious
that that's what
they're going for
because every phone
company in every state
is saying the exact
same thing,
and eventually
they're all going
to link arms.
That's why I think
it's up to us
to make it as difficult
as possible
to just
bow into this.
Yeah, but I don't
call there.
I don't call through
New York company.
I call through MCI.
That's a very good point.
You could call
through another company.
You could use
a 950 dial-up.
You can use a pay phone.
You can go through
an operator.
There's so many ways
to get around calling.
They did a very
dirty thing to me
once, and that's it.
Well, a lot of people
have reasons for using
different long-distance
companies.
Thanks very much
for your opinions.
We're going to move
on to another phone call.
First, before we do,
I'd like to update
people on another
piece of one of
those internal
documents that we
received, and these
really should be
available to the
general public because
what are we talking
about here?
We're talking about
services that you
and I are either
going to be using
or that will be
using us.
So it's something
that we all should
be reading.
We all should be,
you know, having
some kind of an
opinion on.
So listen to this.
The data transmission
is going to be
provided, this is for
you technical people,
via a simplex
voice band digital
interface.
Simplex voice band
digital interface
known as VDI, and
if you want all
kinds of technical
information on that,
you can read
Belcor document
TRTSY000030, and
that's known as
SPCS, Customer
Premises Equipment
Data Interface.
And this is
interesting, folks.
This is very
interesting.
Take a listen to
this.
Although not offered
initially, it might
be desirable in the
future to provide an
interface to directory
assistance or another
database so that the
calling party name
instead of the
calling number can be
determined and
transmitted to the
display of the person
you're calling.
So they can, and it's
not hard to do, they
can tie this into their
databases and transmit
a name.
So if you think, oh,
my number doesn't mean
much, well, okay,
they'll transmit your
name then.
They'll figure out a
way to get all that
information.
So keep in mind, once
we take this step,
there's no going back.
You know, if it doesn't
work out, they're not
going to stop it.
It's already in place.
And another bit for you
technical people, the
allowable data transmission
rates for this service,
as I said, are given in
that Belcor document.
It's desirable that a rate
of 1,200 to 1,800 bits
per second, or 1,200 to
1,800 baud, be provided
for this service.
So that is how they are
transmitting it.
It's between the first and
second ring.
I'd love to hear reports
from people that have
recorded their telephones
after the first ring.
You subscribe to caller
ID, and you listen to
that burst of data that
comes between the first
and second ring.
Maybe we can decode it,
figure out exactly what
they're doing, what
they're transmitting, and
figure out ways to fool
it, ways to make it
transmit other numbers.
I mean, there's got to
be all kinds of things
you can do.
But we've got to have
hands-on access to this
technology, and we also
have to be educated about
it before we are expected
to submit to it.
279-3400.
Good evening.
Oh, wow.
You finally start talking.
Finally, yes.
Yeah, that's my first
comment, that you tell
people to call, and then
you spend, like, too long
with one person, and you
don't know how awful it
feels to be listening to a
ringing phone for a half
hour.
Yeah, I'm well acquainted
with that sound.
Yeah, my first and second
comments.
Okay, the guy who called
you first was a sleazeball.
He first starts out by
saying his invasion of his
privacy when people call
him, and then he tells us
that he listens to other
people's private
conversations, which is a
scummy thing to do.
Wait, wait, wait, wait,
wait.
He said other people's
private conversations.
Now, I don't think you can
use the word private there
if it's being broadcast
non-scrambled over public
airwaves.
I mean, he doesn't, people
don't have to listen to
other people's conversations.
Get a life, you know?
I mean, there are other
things to do.
Well, okay, that might be a
valid point, the fact that,
you know.
Listen to private, and he
says they're boring?
Wow, this guy is boring.
Okay, my third point.
I really wouldn't have
wanted caller identification,
but I have now got to have a
tap on my phone by the
telephone company, because
that's the only way to prove
that this person that I know
that is calling and harassing
me namelessly and being
obscene is doing it, and the
police won't act on it until
the phone company gives them
the evidence.
So the caller ID would have
saved me a lot of bad phone
calls and a lot of trouble
and a lot of time.
Well, you see, the technology
will exist for you to find
out.
There's also something called
Call Trace that anybody will
be able to get, where you
call a certain code after you
get a particularly harassing
call, and the number is
forwarded to the phone
company and they investigate
it.
And how do you get that?
Well, that's going to be
standard on all of the
these new features, these
class services.
So, like, you can have that
for once, or for one time
only, or you have to pay for
it?
I think you have to pay every
time you use it.
I think that's how that will
work.
That would be much more
intelligent than the caller
ID, doesn't it?
I agree.
I think that that is a much
more user-friendly way of
doing it.
If you get a harassing call,
you report it right there on
the spot that technology
exists.
You know that they could
have done this 30 years
ago, because I worked for
the phone company.
Oh, what did you do?
Oh, nothing important, but in
customer service in Brooklyn
and Willoughby Street.
Uh-huh.
And they had technology
then that they are still
not giving us.
Like what?
Oh, I'm not going to go
into it, but I mean like
the TV stuff where you
could see the caller.
Picture phones.
Yeah.
I mean, that stuff has been
held back.
They dribble it out, and
they charge us enormous
rates.
But this caller ID is a big
problem, because what the
first thing that you said
was that it flashes on for
before you, what if you're
not in the room, and you
don't have a retrieval thing
on?
Well, I think most of them
can store, I believe, up to
10 numbers.
So you can call it back?
Uh, you can, there's a
return call option, and that's
another thing that kind of
bothers me.
Uh, they're talking about
return call feature, and you
don't have to have caller ID
to have that.
I'm not sure, maybe somebody
in New Jersey could tell me
this, but if you call
somebody, and you don't, you
put your privacy feature on,
and then they hit the return
call function on their
telephone, well, then they're
connected to you, and they
can find out what your phone
number was, because they
called you, and they can ask
the phone company, well,
what's this number that shows
up on my itemization?
Right.
So it seems to me like, uh,
maybe the privacy feature
isn't really a privacy feature
after all.
Now, you see, I don't list
myself as, I do what you
said.
I've been doing it for years
under another name.
Uh-huh.
It doesn't cost anything.
It doesn't cost a thing.
And you can tell your
friends that's what you're
listed under in case they
forget your number.
You don't have to do that.
I mean, one should, uh, you
know, really, uh, be able to
say, I don't want to be
listed, and not have to pay
for it.
Like today, I got a call from
somebody who I knew was
calling me as a, as a, uh,
marketing thing, because he
used the name from the
phone book.
Uh-huh.
And I just said, you've got
the wrong number.
It saves me a lot of time.
But because of the
harassing phone calls, the
only protection that I have
under the, uh,
guidance of the phone
company and the police
department, is to leave my
answer phone on all the
time and screen my calls.
But they said something
that really confused me.
The phone company said
that if I keep the answer
phone on and I don't pick
up, there's no way they
can trace the call.
That doesn't make any
sense, because your
answer, right, uh,
answering machine is
picking up the phone just
like you would.
Right.
So, should I believe them
or do they know what
they're talking about?
That sounds like typical
phone, and I don't, don't
take offense at this, because
you used to work for the
phone company.
No, no, I'm not.
Typical phone company
lack of understanding.
I'm not personally
emotionally involved with
them.
I have no investment in
them except that I have to
pay them for this phone
service.
Uh-huh.
But I mean, to tell me
that they, that I must, I
said, well, what's the point
of keeping my phone on, my
answer phone on, to scream
these awful calls with my
bell turned off so that I
don't have to listen to
them?
I could just listen to
the person calling, you
know, I don't have to hear
the phone ring every time.
Right.
If I don't want to listen
to them calling, I just
turn down the volume, and
then I have on tape what
they said.
Right.
But they said, if you
don't pick up the phone,
we can't do anything about
it.
No, when your answering
machine is picking up the
phone, that's, that's
crazy what they're saying.
Unless, unless they're
telling you you have to
stay on for a certain
amount of time, but I
don't think that's
necessary anymore.
They also probably want
to hear me say hello.
Uh-huh.
To know that it's me who's
getting the harassing
phone call.
There may be something
to that.
If that's, if that's what
they want, they should
tell you that, but I
don't think that's what
they want somehow.
The other thing that
really upset me about
this is that the police
said that they, at first
said that since I know
who it is, and I have
her address and phone
number, they would go
and arrest her.
And then when I spoke
to the detective, the
detective said, we won't
do anything until the
phone company tells us
that this person is
calling you.
Well, I don't really
know what, what the
police, uh, what the
role of the police is
here, but, uh.
Apparently, they won't
take my word for it.
Well, I mean, if you
know who's calling you,
the phone company can
very easily determine if
they call that number
very easily, almost
instantly.
I've already sent in the
application, but what I
just wanted to say that
it's a very murky feel
for the customer, this
whole thing about
privacy.
Yes, and the phone
company is not making
it any easier to see.
I appreciate your
program.
Okay.
The, and, you know,
this guy is really
doing something that he
complains about other
people invading his
privacy by calling him,
but he's doing the same
thing.
He should get a big
keyhole and just walk
around with it, and he
could feel like a
flyer.
Okay.
Well, thanks for
calling.
Bye.
279-3400.
Good evening.
This is WBAI.
That's what it is.
You're on the air.
Uh, yeah.
I'm following, I'm
following him again on
the air.
You're on the air, so
make the most of it.
No.
Okay.
Uh, I'm calling from
New Jersey, and I have,
uh, caller ID.
Oh, jolly good.
Okay, what's it like?
Uh, it's, basically, it's
a little small, a little
small unit that attaches
to the phone.
When somebody calls, uh,
their number is
displayed, but it's only
displayed for the call
within the area.
In other words, only in
201 area code.
Is it the whole area
code?
Uh, yes.
Okay.
Now, if a call is made
from, say, uh, an
operator-assisted call.
Uh, from an operator-assisted
call?
Yeah.
I believe that does
not show up.
No, it wouldn't.
Okay, and if a call is
made from out of the
area, you get a message
saying it's out of the
area.
I would get a message
saying, uh, what, it
says, uh, I think it
shows a bunch of
question marks.
Uh-huh.
Now, you cannot, uh, do
you have per call blocking
yourself, or do you have
per line blocking?
No, we, we have a thing
where you can block it,
but, uh, where you can
block six calls, or six
lines, rather.
You can block six
lines?
Yep.
In other words, uh, John
Jones, John Smith, John
Brown, I can block their,
their numbers if I want
to.
Okay, that's not what I
mean.
I mean, when you're making
a telephone call, you
don't want your number
transmitted.
What are your options?
I don't think I have
any.
Ah, interesting.
So, well, you probably
have an option where you
can, uh, not have your
number transmitted, but I
suspect that you have to
use that every time you
make a call.
Well, we haven't heard
anything about it yet.
Uh-huh.
Yeah, they don't go out
of their way to tell you
these things.
I know that.
No, but I'll tell you
one thing.
Yeah.
The, uh, the caller ID
is probably the best
thing that has come up
because I've, uh, managed
to call back a few of
these, uh, annoying
companies that call with,
uh, home renovation and,
uh, you know, credit
cards and this, that,
and the other next.
I have managed to call
them back.
There are quite a few
of them are right here
in the same area code.
Uh-huh.
And, uh, I tell them,
look, uh, please remove,
uh, this number from
your computer because
these are all computer
generated, uh, calls.
Right.
And, uh, it seems like
it has worked.
Have you ever had to use
it on something other
than a company?
On a company?
Other than a company.
Uh, yeah, I've, uh,
quite a few people have
called here and they've
hung up.
And, uh, I called them
right back and said,
look, you know, the
least you could do is
have the common
decences to say,
well, I'm sorry, I've
reached the wrong
number.
Uh-huh.
And they were
shocked as hell.
So you think it'll,
it'll make people a bit
more courteous on the
telephone?
I think so.
I think so.
Uh-huh.
Well, do you ever have
the occasion where you
want to call somebody
and you don't want them
to know who you are?
No.
If I'm going to call you,
I want you to know
who I am.
Uh-huh.
So you wouldn't have
any objection to me
having your phone number
right here?
No, I wouldn't.
Okay, well, you know,
that's, uh, that's
something I guess, uh,
a lot of people feel.
But, uh, I don't know.
I just, I just have
problems with that.
I just have problems,
you know, giving out
that information that
we never gave out before.
Well, I'll say it this way.
If I'm going to, if I'm
going to make a call
and I don't want you to
know where I'm calling
from, then I'll go to
the local phone booth
and make that call.
Uh-huh.
So couldn't you be
harassed by somebody
from a pay phone or
somebody going to an
operator?
Which the, uh, pay phone
number would show up.
Uh-huh.
Uh, it would show up.
You know, if it's
within the area code.
Unless, unless they
went through an operator.
Or unless they went
through another long
distance company or
something.
Uh.
Or if they blocked
their line.
You know, there's,
there's all kinds of
ways of doing that.
Well, okay.
Very, very, very
basically, I think
that if someone were
to, um, to call me
and had a, had their,
their number blocked.
Say someone calling
within the 201 area code
and they had their line
blocked and I could not
identify, could identify
from my caller ID unit.
I, I doubt very much
without answer.
I'd probably put on the,
uh, you know, put on
my recording machine and
pick up, see what I
picked up from that.
Uh-huh.
Okay.
Thanks so much for
enlightening us on that.
Okay.
Have a good evening.
Okay.
Uh, we're on the air
for another, oh, three
minutes or so, so let's
try to get through these
calls.
Good evening.
Uh, hi.
Um, I think a lot of
people have a lot of
funny ideas about caller
ID.
Um, the only people who
are, this is really
going to catch are people
who don't understand it.
Um, companies are going
to take advantage of
people who call them,
uh, just asking for
information because big
companies can afford, uh,
reverse directories.
And once you call them,
they have your number,
they have your name,
they have your address,
they know how affluent
your neighborhood is,
and they can then try to
pursue your business and,
and torment you even
more.
And they'll learn how to
get around caller ID.
They can, they'll either
block their line or call
from a line that they
don't answer from.
Um, it really won't do,
it won't prevent
annoyance phone calls
because those people
will figure out how to
get around it.
Just people who don't
understand it will end
up giving away the keys
to their, to their
privacy to the people
they're calling without
even knowing it.
I'd like people to come
up with, uh, scenarios
for potential abuses of
caller ID that we're not
thinking of now.
Like, let's say, uh,
as you say, when you
call up, uh, the person
will, the company on the
other end say,
will know, uh, where
you're calling from,
your street address,
they'll be able to tie
it into a database.
Let's say you call a
pizza delivery place
and a pizza delivery
place happens not to
like your neighborhood.
Well, they can just,
you know, say, oh, we're
not going to pick up
that phone or we'll
just forward that to a
busy signal or something
like that.
And, uh, you know,
they'll, they'll know all
this information about you
before you, you know,
you even start talking.
A version of a telephone
redlining almost.
Yeah.
Very discriminatory.
I've got two quick
questions that are related.
I'd like you to talk a
little bit about how the
800 caller ID works and
whether there's ways to
block that and whether,
you know, that applies
to all 800 numbers.
And also, if you know
personally of any, uh,
reverse directories that
are available for public
use, I've heard libraries
sometimes have them, but
I've never seen them.
And I've, I saw one once
at a realtor's office.
Of course, they can afford
the several hundred dollar
lease on the books.
Right.
Um, but I've never seen
public access to them.
And I don't think the
public's really aware
that they exist.
Uh-huh.
Okay.
I'll try to, I'll try to
address those.
Uh, there is the, uh,
Coles directory, which, uh,
has reverse information
in it.
You look up the phone
number, it gives you the
address and name.
Uh, you look up an
address, it gives you the
phone number and name.
And those, uh, those are
available sometimes at
libraries.
You have to ask around, ask
if they have a Coles
directory.
800 numbers.
It's not called, uh,
caller ID.
It's called ANI,
automatic number
identification.
It's transmitted in a,
in a different way
through different, uh,
switching systems.
I really don't have time
to discuss right now,
unfortunately.
And yes, you can block
it by going through an
operator or by going
from an area that, uh,
doesn't transmit that
information.
One more call.
Good evening.
Hi, WBAI?
Yeah, go ahead.
Um, I just want, uh,
the correct spelling of
Dr. Michio Kaku's name
and your address.
I want to send him a
note.
Okay, I'll, I'll do
that on the air.
Thanks for, for
listening.
Uh, Michio Kaku,
if I recollect correctly,
it's M-I-C-H-I-O-K-A-K-U
is the, uh,
last name.
And the address is
505 8th Avenue,
New York, New York,
10018.
But that's not my name.
My name's Emmanuel
Goldstein.
So if you want to
comment on the program,
yes, uh,
send something to
that name.
Uh, real quickly now
as we round things out.
A couple of telephone
numbers for, uh,
people interested in
decoding caller ID
without getting
phone company
equipment.
Um, the
International
Micropower Corporation,
800-992-3511.
And, uh, a couple of
things that, uh,
are in this issue
of 2600.
Uh, let's see, uh,
a company called
Bug Busters
out in Long Island.
Uh, you can, uh,
write to them at
PO Box 978,
Shore of New York,
11786,
or fax them at
516-929-0772.
And, uh, there's a
company up in Buffalo.
You can reach them
at 716-691-3476.
And they're called
E-D-E.
That's the program
for this week.
Stay tuned for the
Personal Computer Show.
This is Emmanuel
Goldstein.
I'll be back again
next week for another
exciting edition of
Off the Hook.
Good night.
Now I can't make a call
It couldn't get much
worse
But if they could
they would
Bumbiddley Bum
For the best
Expect the worst
I hope that's
understood
Bumbiddley Bum
Oh, and this is
It couldfür
Bumbiddley Bum
Bum
Oh, and this is
The Penditations