...issues. Broadcast live, nationwide, on both public radio and public access cable television.
Join Pacifica Radio's National Affairs Correspondent Larry Bensky, along with WBAI's Shelton Walden and Jenny Bourne,
as they examine the issues of air quality, lead poisoning, solid waste, and environmental racism.
Be part of our live audience as we grill representatives from the New York City Department of Environmental Protection, the EPA, and the General Motors Corporation.
Get answers to the questions that affect all of us.
The meeting will be held at the Borough of Manhattan Community College's Triplex Theater, 199 Chambers Street.
Doors open at 8 p.m. Admission is free.
So don't forget, that's Slow Death in the Cities, a Pacifica Radio town hall meeting, Thursday, October 31st, from 9 to 11 p.m., live on WBAI and Deep Dish TV.
For more information, call Deep Dish TV at 212-473-8933, or call WBAI weekdays from 9 to 5 at 212-279-0707.
And this is WBAI in New York.
The time is 9 o'clock, and that means it's time for Off the Hook.
The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a call.
It couldn't get much worse.
But if they could, they would.
Bomb Dillipon, for the best, expect the worst.
I hope that's understood.
Bomb Dillipon!
And a very good evening to one and all.
The program is off the hook.
This is Emanuel Goldstein with you on this Wednesday night.
We talk about technology.
We talk about the phone company.
We talk about invasion of privacy.
And we talk about hackers.
All kinds of things like that are in the cards for tonight.
And, of course, we also talk to you, our listeners, at 279-3400.
We'll be getting to that in just a little while.
But first, some bits of information, some news, some happenings of the day that just can't go unmentioned.
Stay with us.
We'll be right back.
We're also going to have a rather thrilling demonstration of something.
Something that I just discovered.
And I think it's amazing.
But we'll get to that in just a little bit.
First, some news.
Some reassuring news.
Fears are growing that computer software designed to protect the Sizewell B nuclear reactor from serious accidents.
Fears are that that software is too complex to check.
The Sizewell B will be the first nuclear power station in the United Kingdom to rely so heavily on computers in its primary protection system.
A computer-controlled safety system was seen as superior to one operated by people because of the risk of human error and people like Homer Simpson.
A number of software engineers close to the project are known to have suggested that the software is now so unmanageable that it should be scrapped and the whole system built again.
The main worry is that the software being produced by Westinghouse, which is an American company, is so large and complex that it is impossible to verify that it would react as it should if the reactor behaved dangerously.
Now, a simpler system would be easier to verify and to maintain, but it would be difficult, well, not impossible, to find a politically acceptable route whereby the existing system could be scrapped and development started again from scratch.
From the London Independent of Sunday, October 13th.
A complex problem of tests.
Software engineers agree that it is not safe to assume that software will always operate correctly, especially in systems such as nuclear power stations, where people's lives are at risk if the software fails.
But computer programs are notoriously difficult to verify.
The chief anxiety over the protection system for Sizewell B is that it is very large and complex.
This bucks the trend in safety-critical software, which is to build small, simple systems.
It's usually impossible to test software for all combinations of the inputs it may receive, say, from the reactor in a nuclear power station, or, say, from AT&T on January 15th, for instance.
It would take thousands of years to test the most simple system.
Now, an alternative approach is to rely on statistical analysis of the system to give probabilities of its reliability,
and this would involve running the system for long enough to get an idea of the chances of it failing,
but even this could take many years for a large system.
So, basically, it's not something very pleasant here.
Nuclear Electric, which is the company over there, has designed its system so that it should fail no more than once in every 10,000 demands.
And a demand is defined as being when the reactor is in a state where the software should shut it down.
So, if that happens 10,000 times, there's a good chance that one of those times it won't really work out all that well.
Or it could happen sooner.
Computers are such wonderful things.
How about this?
A computerized thermostat.
Sound like a good idea for your homes and offices,
rather than having to deal with that bulky, inconvenient circle thing that you turn with your hands.
Everybody hates that.
Let's hear from Lidjeviks Bukis of Rochester.
He says,
I have a typical electronic setback thermostat installed.
A couple of nights ago, it failed in the on position,
causing my furnace to run and run,
until my three-year-old woke up and came over to tell me that she was hot.
The temperature had reached 92 degrees.
The thermostat itself had decided that it was still 68 degrees.
Rebooting the thermostat by removing and reinserting the batteries made it get back in touch with reality.
I replaced the batteries too, but considering it had enough power to run the LCDs, that's probably not it.
There are electronic setback thermostats that mount over existing mechanical mercury switch thermostats.
I always thought it was silly to have a little motor move the arm up and down to cycle the furnace.
But now I have to wonder about what temperature my electronically controlled furnace would be driven my house to,
before either reaching thermal equilibrium,
or igniting,
or melting something,
especially if left to itself over a vacation.
At least with a mercury switch in there,
the most extreme setting is probably still below
where my good old all-electronic device would have taken my home.
And, of course, the other main danger that we face when we run blindly into the computer age
is not keeping backups.
And I'm sure we're all guilty of that to a degree.
But probably not as guilty as this poor school in London.
That's right.
Earlier this month,
the London Evening Standard carried a very small paragraph
reporting a fire at Hitchin College of Further Education.
And according to the writer of this piece,
Peter Mellor,
it drew his attention
since it's a few miles away from my home
and my ex-wife works there as a secretary.
The fire started at 2 a.m.
and was not discovered for an hour.
By then, the building complex
housing the total computing facilities of the college,
both educational and administrative,
had been gutted.
The backup tapes, needless to say,
were stored on site,
close to the computers,
in a non-fireproof cupboard.
Need I say more?
Total damage to computer equipment
was quoted in the paper as 10 million pounds.
But the total amount of loss
is incalculable
given that the college's financial
and student records
have all been wiped out.
And it's on the cards
that Hitchin College
will cease to exist
as a separate institution.
Sober warning there, folks.
Keep backups.
Practice safe computing.
How about this?
Some good news from
from credit people.
Or is it good news?
You tell me.
According to the, uh,
to, uh,
all kinds of media sources, actually,
TRW is now going to be
giving out
free
credit reports.
Isn't that a joy?
All those
bits of information
about you
now will be accessible
by you
without having to pay
a huge amount of money.
It's, uh,
life in America, huh?
Uh,
it's not as good
as it seems,
however,
because, uh,
they're not giving you
the same information
that they give to, say,
banks
or
other, uh,
department stores
that want to see
what kind of a risk you are.
And they're only going to do this
for you once a year.
They won't tell you
when other people
have access to your credit reading,
your credit files.
Uh,
it's a step,
but it's, uh,
a piddling step.
According to the
Wall Street Journal
on Monday,
October 15th,
TRW has decided
to purge
local tax delinquency
info
from the files
of consumers
residing in
four New England states.
A while back,
there was, uh,
a bunch of
tax information errors
in Norwich, Connecticut,
and it seems
that similar errors
have been made
in the files
of consumers
living in several
other communities.
TRW blames the problem
on a lax subcontractor.
Many other people
blame the problem
more broadly
on TRW's
apparent unwillingness
to verify input
or accept corrections.
Consumers say
it's difficult
to reach anyone
at TRW
who even appears
capable
of influencing
the data in a file.
And further report
that TRW's personnel
refuse to rectify errors
even when the
TRW folks' attention
is drawn to them.
A little comedy
from Blockbuster Video
now.
As some of you
may know,
the Blockbuster chain
of video stores
uses a very spiffy
computer system
to, among other things,
keep track of what videos
you've watched,
what they have in stock,
and who has checked in
and out
what videos.
And all videos
have a barcode
which they simply
scan into their computer system.
will be found.
Now, when you bring the video in,
you put it in the return box
and eventually someone
scans it into the computer
as a return video.
According to this submission
to the Risks Digest
on the internet,
this contributor,
Mowgli Assor,
checked out a video
Friday,
he's going to call
that video A,
and returned it
on Monday
when he picked up
another one,
video B.
He says,
Today, Tuesday,
I got a call
that I had not yet
returned video A
and should do so soon.
On Monday,
it was already
one day late.
I went in
and returned video B
and then mentioned
that their computer
was a little behind
and had missed my return.
The lady there remarked
that that was odd
and went to find
her manager.
The manager did all sorts
of neat computer things
and wasn't able to find
that someone else
had checked out the video
and, of course,
didn't find a record
of me checking it in.
She then mentioned
that she didn't know
how this could happen.
I pointed out to her
that I had at least
twice seen employees
get distracted
when they put the video
on the counter,
but before they check it in
and have seen
another overzealous employee
come along
and clean the counter off,
moving the tapes
to the to-be-shelves section.
She then sent
the first lady
to check the shelves
for it.
Well,
the video couldn't be found
and I then asked
the manager
if she could check
if the video
had been checked out
by someone else.
She replied
that it had not,
so if I didn't have it,
it must still be
in the store.
I was getting
a little bit annoyed
at this point.
And then the manager said,
I was training
a new girl
on Monday
and this morning
we found
about 25 videos
hadn't been checked in properly.
Note that
previously
she didn't know
how this could happen.
So,
the upshot of this is
I have to hope
that they find the video
around the store
somewhere.
She also mentioned
that miss-shelving videos
was common
among new employees.
because if they
don't find the video
I will have to buy it
and of course
I'm not allowed
to rent any more videos
until the entire matter
is resolved.
At this time
Blockbuster thinks
I stole the tape
and since I gave them
the proof I didn't
on Monday
and they lost it
I of course
have no proof anymore.
It's the risk
of relying on employees
to know their jobs.
Now in our
Big Brothers section
of the program
another piece
from England
comes from
David Barshard.
England's banks
plan to spend
more than
500 million pounds
in the next
three years
on an initiative
to combat
plastic card fraud
but they have
persuaded
Mr. Kenneth Baker
the Home Secretary
to drop
controversial proposals
to put photographs
of holders
on all credit
and debit cards.
Under the new
fraud prevention measure
shoppers may soon
have to punch in
their personal identity
number into a
computer terminal
each time they pay
by card.
Other possibilities
being discussed
by the banks
and the Home Office
include checking
a customer's identity
by shining a laser beam
on his or her retina
and verifying
the signature
on the card
by computer.
These proposals
were discussed
at a meeting
in London
between Mr. Baker
and banking industry
representatives
on how to combat
the rapid increase
in plastic card fraud.
Banks fought
against the introduction
of photographs
on cards
because they feared
the government
was asking them
to introduce
an identity card scheme
through the back door.
of course
having retina scans
is a
more sophisticated
identity card system.
It's all kinds of ways
we give away
our privacy
you know
and the worst ways
are
when we do it
voluntarily.
Sanford Sherazen writes
even though
TRW may have changed
some of its tactics
the credit industry
continues to grab
bits and pieces
of private information
in any way possible.
the privacy battle
is far from over
particularly since
TRW is going to provide
credit histories
while not having to reveal
all of the personal information
it has gathered
and continues to sell.
what follows
is a perfect example
of what information
is being sought
and the often
manipulative ways
by which it is being
gathered.
This is from a letter
that
Buyer's Market
sent to me.
If you enjoy
shopping by mail
we are ready
to give you
$150 in savings
just for telling us
what's on your
personal shopping list.
This invitation
is mailed to consumers
with unique interests
people just like you
who are sought after
by the nation's
leading mail order companies.
As part of this
sought after group
you qualify
for a six month
free charter membership
in Buyer's Market
the new
nationwide organization
that not only
arranges generous discounts
for preferred
mail order customers
but also brings you
Mail Selector.
That helps you get
catalogs and special offers
on products you want
while helping to reduce
unwanted mail.
There's only one requirement.
To receive
a minimum of
$150 in savings
certificates
and free
charter membership
in Buyer's Market
you must
complete
and return
our consumer survey
by October 30th
1991.
Well that's today folks
so I think we're out of luck.
At the bottom of the
questionnaire
is a box
marked
confidential
and in small print
it's revealed
that the organization
is part of Equifax
which
some of you
may realize
is a biggie
in the credit history
industry.
And
the confidential
statement
is as follows.
Buyer's Market
is a nationwide
organization
of consumers
sponsored by
Equifax
Consumer Direct.
Consumer information
provided to Buyer's Market
is used solely
to facilitate
consumer purchasing choices
and is not supplied
for any consumer
evaluative activities
and will not be added
to any other
Equifax database.
The information
you provide
to Buyer's Market
by completing
this member profile
will be kept
completely confidential.
Your answers
will be used
by the staff
of Buyer's Market
solely to guide
cooperating merchants
in directing
to you offers
you may be interested
in and or
to help eliminate
your name
from mailings
or offers
you indicate
you don't want.
Doesn't this
confidential statement
make you feel
protected?
I wonder
how many people
are going to
fill out
the Consumer Survey
which contains
sections on
personal interests
use of coupons
leisure
and hobbies
new product
preferences
and purchasing
plans
and about
you
including
questions on
age,
income,
home ownership,
length of residence,
size of household,
marital status,
children by age
and personal computer.
Maybe
Mr. Justice Thomas
or the Honorable
Senator Orrin Hatch
new converts
to the cause
of privacy
will become
advocates
for limiting
this invasion.
I wonder
if their
records on
video rentals
are available
through Equifax.
That comes from
Sanford Sherazan
of Natick,
Massachusetts.
You're listening to
Off the Hook.
I'm Emanuel Goldstein.
We're here until
10 o'clock
and
coming up
in just a moment
a rather shocking
demonstration
of something
that
I'll bet
not many people
know about yet.
Oh, but you will.
You will.
We'll be taking
phone calls
at 212-279-3400
in probably about
five minutes or so,
so
get yourself
ready for that.
Here's a humorous
bit from Holland
from Ralph Moonen.
I'm a frequent
user of
ATMs.
As banks
in the Netherlands
are closed
after 5 p.m.
and on the
weekends,
the only way
you're going to
get cash
after that time
is through
an ATM.
Unfortunately,
not all of them
are the same
and some display
a most
peculiar
behavior.
ATM says
insert card.
I insert my card.
ATM says
key in your
PIN code.
I key in my
PIN code.
ATM says
there are no
receipts available
currently.
Choose the amount
of cash you wish
to withdraw.
I choose
100 guilders.
ATM says
there are no
receipts available
currently.
Do you want
a receipt?
I press the
no key.
ATM says
we're sorry
there are no
receipts available
currently.
Please wait.
ATM says
retrieve cash
from ATM
please.
There are no
receipts available
currently.
I say
I know
there are no
receipts.
Please quit
whining and
give me my
money.
ATM says
please take
your card
out.
I take
my card
out.
ATM says
please wait
for your
receipt.
There are no
receipts
available
currently.
And
something else
that this
particular
contributor
noticed
is that
the banks
apparently
edit the
on-screen
messages
on the
fly.
He says
once I
was making
a withdrawal
and the
screen was
flashing a
bank advertisement
on the bottom
two lines.
Something like
open a new
account now
and receive
this great
CD with the
greatest hits
of 1991
plus a
whopping
5.4%
interest.
When suddenly
the cursor
moved to that
line and
lo and behold
they edited
the interest
rate.
the ATM
continued my
transaction
perfectly but
it was pretty
weird to see
the line
edited on
screen.
And finally
I once
arrived at an
ATM that
looked in
pretty bad
shape.
Someone had
apparently
drank too
much and
decided to
unload his
lunch over
the keyboard.
I took
one look and
decided to
not make the
planned
transaction.
At that
point a
van stopped
and some
service guy
got out.
So I
waited to
see what
would happen.
The guy
goes through
a door next
to the
ATM,
does something
to the
inside,
comes out
and lifts
the entire
front off.
Puts it
into his
van and
replaces it
with a new
one.
I asked
why and
he said
well would
you like
to have
to poke
in someone
else's
puke?
I said
but you
don't need
to replace
the whole
front for
that you
could just
clean it.
The answer
was a vague
story about
disinfecting the
thing and
AIDS and
that he
didn't fancy
having to
clean it.
all of
those
previous
submissions
came to
us through
the
risks
digest
which is
an electronic
publication
that is
spread
throughout
the
internet
and we
read bits
of it
here on
Off the
Hook
to bring
all of
those
that
aren't
on the
internet
into
the world
of
technological
risks.
things.
Now,
on to our
demonstration.
Pay attention
especially those
of you who
have selected
MCI as
your long
distance
carrier.
for there is
an incredible
risk here.
you may recall
over the past
couple of
months there's
been this
deal that
MCI has
been pushing
left and
right where
if you get
your friends
to sign up
for MCI
and then
you have
MCI and
you call
your friends
or your
friends call
you,
everybody
saves money.
If the
destination
number is
an MCI
number and
your number
is an MCI
number you
can save
something like
20% off
the regular
rate.
Now,
when this
first happened
I was a bit
leery of that
because it's
one thing to
select a long
distance company
for yourself
but when you
go around
acting as an
agent for
the company
and getting
other people
to select it
so that you
can save
money,
it seems
like you're
kind of doing
their work
for them.
But that
was a minor
point compared
to what
somebody pointed
out to me
very recently.
Now,
those people
that have
gone for this
and have
joined the
calling circle
are told
that all
they have to
do to
check on the
status of
their calling
circle is
to dial
an 800
number from
any touch
home phone
and a
recording
will tell
you who
has been
added,
who is
not eligible
and who
is in the
process of
being contacted.
Now,
this is what
I want to
demonstrate here.
What we're
going to do
is connect
to this
particular
800 number
using our
trusty friend
the dial tone
here.
And
listen
and learn.
Welcome to
MCI Friends
and Family
Circle
update line.
Please enter
your telephone
number beginning
with your area
code.
Now,
I happen to
know somebody
that has
this particular
service,
that has MCI
as their
long-distance
carrier.
So,
I'm going to
enter their
phone number
now.
Thank you.
One moment,
please,
while we
access your
account.
No problem.
To verify
your MCI
account,
please enter
your five-digit
zip code.
Well,
there's no way
I could get
into this.
Is there
I have to
know the
person's
zip code?
Well,
let me
take a
wild random
guess.
Since I
happen to
know the
person and
I know
the phone
number,
getting the
zip code
should not
really be
that hard,
should it?
Congratulations
and thank
you for being
one of our
valued friends
and family
customers.
Your
calling circle
consists of
four members
and two
nominees.
If you
would like
to inquire
about a
specific
member or
nominee to
your calling
circle,
press one.
To hear the
status of each
person in your
calling circle,
press two.
Let's hear
status on
everybody.
We will
first list
your friends
and family
circle nominees
who are not
currently active
members of
your calling
circle.
If at any
time you
wish to
interrupt this
list,
press nine.
To speak
with an MCI
customer service
representative,
press zero.
Your wife
at two,
one,
two,
three,
two,
four,
one,
was an
active member
of your
calling circle
but recently
changed from
MCI.
Have they
moved?
If so,
please press
zero for an
MCI representative
to update
their status.
By the way,
we're censoring
some of the
phone numbers
so you won't
hear the
entire phone
number.
Business
associate
at
two,
one,
two,
three,
two,
four,
zero,
was an
active member
of your
calling circle
but recently
changed from
MCI.
Have they
moved?
If so,
please press
zero for
an MCI
representative
to update
their status.
That concludes
the list
of your
circle nominees.
To hear
a description
of your
active members,
press one.
For other
options,
press two.
Let's hear
the active
members.
The following
people are
active members
of your
calling circle.
You will
receive a
20% discount
every time
you make
a long
distance call
to them.
The person
at
914-3901.
516-5606.
Your wife
at
718-638.
718-5606.
The person
at 718-638.
718-638-638.
718-638.
718-638.
518-638.
518-638-638.
918-638.
918-638.
918-638.
918-638.
Your home
number is
active on your
circle so that
you will save
20% when
traveling and
using your
MCI card
to call
home or
another active
member of
your circle.
And for the active members in your circle that are in your local calling area,
you will save 20% when you call them long distance with your MCI card.
To inquire about a specific circle member, press 1.
To speak to an MCI customer service representative, press 0.
Well, I think we've pressed enough buttons to demonstrate this.
It's the incredible, incredible blatant invasion of privacy here.
I can call up, literally pick a number at random, and find out phone numbers that people call.
Of course, I have to prove that I'm really who I say I am by entering my zip code.
Talk about infallible security.
How this one got by in this day and age, I don't have the slightest idea,
but I'd like to know what people out there think of that.
Any of you have MCI?
Any of you subscribe to this service?
You know, I could just go out there now and pick a number, you know?
And actually, you know, I know somebody else.
And I haven't yet checked this one, but I'm going to check it now.
So, I'm going to see if, because I know their zip code, and I think they have MCI.
Let me give that a try.
Again, our phone number is 212-279-3400, and we don't use MCI.
Welcome to MCI Friends and Family Circle Update Line.
Please enter your telephone number, beginning with your area code.
Phone number has been entered.
Please, while we access your account.
No problem.
To verify your MCI account, please enter your five-digit zip code.
Okay, I'll give a wild guess.
Congratulations.
Oh, thank you.
Thank you for being one of our valued friends and family customers.
Your calling circle consists of two members and one nominee.
If you would like to inquire about a specific member or nominee to your calling circle, press 1.
To hear the status of each person in your calling circle, press 2.
We will first list your friends and family circle nominees who are not currently active members of your calling circle.
If at any time you wish to interrupt this list, press 9.
To speak with an MCI customer service representative, press 0.
We will be inviting your brother-in-law at 908-9-1 to join MCI and your calling circle.
As soon as we speak with him, we will update the status on your calling circle.
That concludes the list of your circle nominees.
To hear a description of your active members, press 1.
For other options, press 2.
Okay, we'll check out the active members.
The following people are active members of your calling circle.
You will receive a 20% discount every time you make a long-distance call to them.
The person at 516...
3...
Your brother at 914...
7...
Your home number is active on your circle.
Okay, we've heard all that before.
So that's basically how it works.
I've only had a couple hours to play with this system.
And already the information that I've gotten out of it is information I really should not be able to get.
Does anybody think I should be able to call up an 800 number and just find out what other people have selected as numbers they're going to call?
It's pretty frightening.
It's pretty disturbing.
And it gets me kind of sick.
Yes, it does.
Because how anybody could think that that is adequate security for that kind of information is well beyond me.
And those of you who have MCIs should take a good long look at how they protect your information.
Not only do I know the phone numbers, I know what they are.
I know about brothers-in-law and brothers and wives and business associates.
Things I don't need to know.
Things I should not know.
Okay, we have an open switchboard.
We're at 279-3400, area code 212.
We'd like to hear what you have to say about this.
And we'd like to hear what you have to say about other technological issues that we have brought up tonight and various other places as well.
By the way, an addendum to that previous demonstration here from Brian Krause.
This is also on the Risk Digest.
I called MCI about this.
Yeah, word is getting out about this thing.
And the first representative I spoke with tried to convince me that nobody would try to get my numbers that way.
And that, really, if someone was malicious, they could call him and cancel or change my service anyway.
That made me feel good.
I then spoke to the supervisor.
She had never used the FRIENDS number, which, by the way, is 1-800-FRIENDS, F-R-I-E-N-D-S.
And she had never used that number since she worked at MCI and didn't need to use that number.
She seemed surprised that you only needed a zip code and has promised to get back to me.
In the meantime, I'm not adding any more people to my list,
and I'm considering switching to a company that doesn't make my monthly bill public information.
Enough said.
279-3400.
Good evening.
You there?
Oh, yeah.
Hello.
Go ahead.
Oh, sorry.
Are you aware that in order to, like, if you're at a pay phone and you're calling a number and it's...
...to check it, you've got to insert a dollar.
That's true.
That's called verification.
It used to be free, you know.
It used to not cost anything.
But you have to...
I don't know how much it is exactly, and it's different if it's long distance, but...
It happened to me.
I'm from Manhattan.
I'm trying to call a friend in Brooklyn.
His phone was busy all day.
They said I had to insert a dollar.
If there was a problem with the phone, I'd get it back.
So I said, well, make it an emergency call.
They wanted a dollar fifty.
Interesting.
Interesting.
I know if you do a break-in, an emergency break-in, they will charge you more for that.
Unless, and this is a little known fact, unless it's really an emergency, like a real emergency, and then they can get the police to do it somehow.
But I understand that if you don't have any money, and you have no way of doing this, and it's really, really a life-or-death emergency, you can do it.
But you really shouldn't, unless it's, you know, that kind of emergency.
Okay, that's it.
Okay, thanks for calling.
But don't do that, folks, unless it's really an emergency.
Otherwise, they'll start charging for 911.
Good evening.
Hi.
I've had some experiences with MCI that I really don't like at all.
I do have AT&T.
I personally don't think one is any better than any other.
But I had some members of my family.
It started with my sister, who thought it was such a great thing to switch to MCI.
And the thing that really got me was that all of a sudden I started getting harassed by family, you know, to switch.
And I thought, oh, God, what is this, you know, coming to, you know, now that...
You see, they're doing MCI's job for them, aren't they?
Yeah, I really, and I've told a lot of people about it.
I've told people to steer clear of it.
I can imagine...
I just don't like that.
One of those commercials that you see on TV where the person is relaying this sob story about how they keep getting harassed by other long-distance companies.
Well, then I picked up the phone, and it was my cousin Ernie saying, hey, have you tried MCI yet?
You know, it's getting to the point where this whole thing is madness.
It got really insulting to me one day and said, well, are you going to make...
You know, because my mother and father usually call me rather than...
You know, they said, well, we don't mind.
You know, we'll call you.
You know, it's long-distance.
But, you know, and they said, and she said, well, are you going to make them pay...
I mean, she was trying, like, laying this guilt trip on me about, you know, making them pay a higher rate because I wouldn't switch.
And I said, well, that just clinched it.
I said, well, I'm never going to switch now.
You're not one to bow into that kind of peer pressure, right?
Oh, God, no way.
Absolutely.
That's good.
Listen, do you know their...
I assume you know their phone number, right?
Uh, no.
You don't know...
No, the phone number of your relatives.
You know those numbers, right?
Oh, of course, yeah.
Okay.
You know their zip codes, too, right?
Yes.
Well, you can just call that 800 Friends number and find out all the numbers they call.
Isn't that amazing?
I think it's horrible.
Well, give it a try, and then call them...
I just, you know, I mean, I don't...
This is what you do, sir.
You record it onto a tape recorder.
Then you call all your relatives, and you play back the tape recorder and say,
anybody can get this because you're a part of this program.
What do you think of that?
What happens when...
I just kind of caught the middle of when you were in that.
When you call Friends...
You call 1-800-FRIENDS, you enter the phone number of somebody who has MCI,
and you enter their zip code, and it will give you a list of everybody and their phone number
that is part of that particular deal.
Oh, my God.
That's horrible.
It's incredibly stupid as well.
Yeah, I don't know.
I mean, I even called AT&T.
I mean, not that, you know, like I said at the beginning, I'm not enamored of AT&T,
but I do have, you know, I'm satisfied with my monthly bills,
and I know how to use Reach Out America so that, you know,
so that I can have a reasonable long-distance rate each month.
But the thing is, I mean, they don't do that kind of stuff so far.
I mean, that's all I can say.
So, you know, I'll just leave it at that.
I think they probably know a bit more about it.
I did call them one day to complain about it.
They said, yeah, we know about it, but, you know, there's very little we can do.
Uh-huh.
You know, I, oh, God, it just makes me sick.
Well, spread the word, make more people sick.
That's what we're here for.
Definitely.
All right, thanks for calling.
Okay.
279-3400.
Good evening.
Yeah, I have a couple of questions about the caller ID.
Okay.
I received it about two months ago.
You're in New Jersey?
Uh, yeah.
I'm down by Toms River area.
Okay.
And, uh, well, my sister-in-law, she calls me up from upstate New York.
The phone number that shows up on the dial is a 201 phone number.
So it's the same number every single time.
Really?
It shows up as a 201 number.
And what happens when you call that number?
Oh, I don't know.
I didn't try it.
You didn't try it?
Oh.
Man, you've got to be more curious than that.
It's a, well, I mean, it could be your, it could be she's playing some kind of game,
you know?
No, no.
It could be she doesn't live in New York at all.
No, it's all the way up in Lake Sockendaga, I think.
It's up there.
Well, somehow she's coming in on that line.
Maybe she's using some kind of weird long-distance company that makes, uh, you know, out dials
and trunk lines or something.
I know she's in, like, one of those little rural areas where the population's like 1,000
or 800 people.
Uh-huh.
Very small.
Yeah, one of those remote villages.
I've heard of them.
Right, right.
Uh, my next question is, if someone calls me up from, let's say, northern New Jersey,
and it'll show up out of area on my caller ID,
and yet the telephone book that I have, it says on a certain page, to record it,
I would just have to hit a star and then 67 or something,
and the telephone company automatically records the number.
Even if it's out of area?
Well, that's what I'm curious.
I don't know.
I would doubt that, because if it's out of area,
that means they don't have the capability of recording it.
But, I mean, try it.
Next time you get one, try recording it and see what happens.
But see, they won't give me the number, though,
except unless if you use it for, like, a lawsuit or something like that.
Oh, this is for, uh, to report a harassing call or something like that.
Right, exactly.
That's the basic reason why I got it.
Well, I mean, you could always hit those buttons by mistake.
See if, see if you get the, you know, little verification tone.
Is that what you're supposed to get, some sort of verification tone?
Uh, right.
Okay, maybe if you, if it doesn't do it, it won't give you the verification tone.
Uh, what, what I suggest you do, and this is off the record,
and everybody listening, remember this is off the record.
If you, uh, get one of those calls and you want to try it out,
just accidentally hit star six, seven, or whatever you have to hit,
and just see what happens.
See if you get a call from somebody saying,
hey, do you wish to press charges against this person, or whatever.
Yeah.
Okay.
There's, there's one other thing I'd like you to try, though,
since you have caller ID.
Uh, now, when you get one of those private calls, right,
you get a, a P for private.
Mm-hmm.
It means the person doesn't want their number to be revealed.
Try.
A block, you mean?
Uh, yeah, try, uh, putting that in,
do you have the capability of putting, uh,
storing numbers into a list where you won't be,
you won't have to answer them at all, you can just ignore them?
Right, yeah, it just permanently stays in memory.
I can memorize it.
Okay.
It'll.
Try to do that to a private number and see if it works.
Mm-hmm.
Okay, and, uh, in fact, you might even want to try this yourself.
Try from a different number, uh, and, and make it private yourself,
and then put that into the, uh, whatever they call that,
that bin where you forget about numbers.
Mm-hmm.
Then call your business office and say,
hey, I forgot which numbers I put in that bin.
Can you tell me what they are?
Uh-huh.
And see if you can get a private number that way.
If you can, and I suspect you can,
that means that this call blocking is really, uh,
a word that I can't say on the air.
Yeah, right, of course.
Yeah, well, I can say that on the air, I guess.
But, uh, give that a try and get back to us.
Okay.
Thanks for calling.
279-3400.
The program is off the hook.
Good evening.
Hi.
On last week's show, uh, you dialed an 800 number,
which, uh, then, uh, accessed a menu of different fantasy lines
that could be connected to.
Do you remember that?
Right, and it would call you back collect.
Right, it would call you back collect,
and they gave a price of, like, a dollar a minute.
Right.
Those lines are accessible,
at least within the New York area,
for 30 cents the first minute
and 11 cents each additional minute.
Is the difference then going simply to that company
that provides that service,
which is more than twice the amount
that it costs to call them?
Uh, I'm not quite sure,
because I still have yet to find a phone
that will accept to collect calls,
so I can see if it's going through a phone company
or if they're just simply calling you directly
and, uh, calling it a collect call.
I don't know.
Um, but that's a, that's a good question.
You sure it's the exact same service?
Because a lot of them are very similar.
From the names of it and everything,
yes, it is the exact same service.
They call themselves the same things.
Uh-huh.
What's particularly scary, though,
with, with the one we called last week
is that they knew your phone number
and you didn't have to tell them your phone number.
Right.
That, that was what got me.
Not the price so much,
but what, uh, what they learned
from you dialing their number.
All right, thanks for calling.
Together, thank you.
Good evening.
You're on the air.
Oh, thank you very much
for a very informative show.
Um, your illustration there
of, of, uh, how deregulation
has really, uh,
you flip that right over on its head, you see.
It's not deregulized.
You know, you can take anything and invert it,
and it's amazing just, uh, how our, um,
privacy has been, um, you know,
infringed upon, or can be,
with these, these gimmicks.
You know, the phone has turned
into this incredible gimmick, uh,
because everyone in this country
is so hard up to, you know,
for money or to sell things, whatever.
My question to you is,
terms such as calling circles,
uh, can you recommend any books
or anything or, or places to go
where I can find out more
of these phone terms?
Uh, phone terminology, huh?
Uh, like, reach out America,
call her ID?
You know, I don't know of a book
that, that will tell you
such current things,
because they're, they're,
they're evolving and changing so fast.
Um, I, if you just, uh, you know,
keep your ear out to these, um,
you know, to, to these
technological terms as they, I mean...
30 journals?
...next month, uh, well,
you could subscribe to 2600,
of course, you know,
the Hacker Quarterly.
Come to a hacker meeting
this, uh, this Friday
at CityCore Center.
Where?
Uh, that's, uh,
good thing you reminded me.
It's, it's at CityCore Center
this Friday from 5 to 8 p.m.
Uh, right in the lobby area,
and you just hang out there
and talk to a bunch of, uh,
computer hackers and phone freaks,
and they know all the lingo,
all the jargon.
And these are the guys
that know how to work the machines.
Right.
And they, uh,
they also know what the risks are.
The whole sales,
you, you've illustrated
about this whole, uh,
mentation of, uh,
how we sell things,
and the phone is now
the biggest, uh,
aside from junk mail
and the fax machine,
which is a phone,
development of a phone,
just how the phone is,
um, it's amazing.
Well, it's amazing.
It's also very scary,
and all, all forms of technology
can be very scary
if they're misused,
and I think we're,
we're looking at misuse
either through, uh,
um, through malevolence
or through simply ignorance.
And we gotta,
we gotta be on the lookout
for both of those.
Well, because we want,
we want to be manipulated.
I think some of us do.
A lot of us do.
I, I do think that.
Thank you, Manuel.
Thank you.
Good evening.
Hello?
Yes, go ahead.
Uh, with the zip code
being your, uh, security,
Uh-huh.
Uh, I know I can do
the same thing
on my credit cards,
that that's all security
you need,
is call up your credit card
and punch a new zip code.
Well, yeah,
but you have to know
your credit card number
to start with,
which I know is easy to get,
but still,
it's not as easy
to get as a phone number.
Steals your wallet.
And you're gonna have
a zip code in there
on a driver's license
or something.
That's true.
So anybody who steals
your wallet
can find out all kinds
of things about
your credit rating.
But as far as the security
on the telephone lines,
I, I, I think that's really
a matter of future shock
because, I mean,
I think we're all forgetting
about the good old days
when you could call up
an operator
and say you'd like
your phone call,
say you're at a pay phone
out of state
and you don't have
five dollars and change
and you say,
I'd like this phone call
billed to my home number
of, and just give them
any number.
Right.
And they would take it.
Well, almost always
from a pay phone
they would call to verify,
but I don't think
they even do that anymore.
That's the thing,
they don't do it anymore
because of the abuse.
Right.
But, I mean,
it seems as if
they haven't learned a thing
if they're,
if they're gonna do it
this way.
I mean,
what I called before,
all those numbers
that I got as a result,
I can now call
those numbers
and enter them
because I know
they're part of this MCI plan
and I could just
find out all the phone numbers
that all these people call
and it's,
a lot of them are going
to be unlisted phone numbers.
You know,
it's a really scary thing.
Well, I mean,
if you just get a hold
of the guy's MCI card too,
the same thing could happen.
Not really.
I mean,
you need to know
the phone number.
I mean,
you need to find
the phone number.
I mean,
just by getting
somebody's MCI card,
I can't see what numbers,
I don't get the phone bill,
you see.
Well, I would think
but the important thing
you're looking for
is seeing if you can go
and cheat on his phone bill.
I mean,
as far as who he's calling,
even with the numbers
that you called up,
okay, fine,
you have numbers,
but you still don't have
any names or addresses
on these people.
That's not too hard to get.
That really isn't.
Not in this day and age.
But yeah,
I mean,
you know,
making free phone calls,
that's easy enough.
It's extremely easy
to do that,
but this is something
that goes beyond that.
This is actually
probing into your life
and seeing what numbers
you call
and having a computer
spit them out to you
and tell you how you're
related to these people
as well.
Something that
I'm not too comfortable with.
Thanks for calling.
Let's go on to another
phone call here.
Good evening.
Yeah,
there's a
New York Telephone 800 number
which does the same thing.
You enter
a number
which is anything
in New York
because it's
New York Telephone
and the zip code
and it'll give you
instead of information,
it'll give you
the billing information
for that person
for that month.
How much they've paid,
how much is due
and it does a host
of other things.
Okay,
okay,
wait a minute.
You're going to tell me
this number,
are you not?
Should I see it
on the air?
Say it,
everybody has a right
to know this.
Sure,
okay.
It's in the front
of the phone book also
but it's
1-800-698-1311.
And it's a touchtone service?
Well,
there seems to be
a problem with that.
It works during the day
but they don't want
to connect you
during the evening
because occasionally
they want to put
an operator on to it
but I haven't encountered
one yet
but I haven't encountered
some trouble
with calling
in the evening.
So,
what you're saying
is when you do call
and you get a machine
it asks you
for your phone number,
it asks you
for your zip code?
And then you dial
what specific information
you want.
You can arrange
how you want
to be billed
and as I said
it tells you
for that month
how much you owe,
etc.
Well,
I certainly will
check into that.
Thanks for bringing
it to my attention.
Anybody else
that has something
like that,
please do bring
it to my attention.
Thanks for calling.
And there's several ways
you can bring it
to my attention.
You can mail something
here to WBAI.
The program is
Off the Hook.
This is Emanuel Goldstein.
Our address is
505 8th Avenue,
New York,
New York,
10018.
If you want to leave
a message on an
answering machine
you can call up
the 2600 office
at 516-751-2600.
Let's try and take
a couple more phone calls
in the time we have left.
Good evening.
Yes,
there was somebody
earlier who
complained about
busy signal verification.
Yeah.
Now,
there's a way
you can verify
the busy signal
for free.
Okay,
how's that?
Okay,
what you do,
you have to know
the phone number
which you will know
of course
and you have to know
the address
of that phone number.
Okay.
Call up 611.
Call up 611.
Hey,
that's not a,
and 611 tests it
as you're on the line.
And they,
and you tell them,
you want,
you want,
they don't even care
if it's your phone number
or not.
All they ask for
is the address.
Uh-huh.
They'll tell you
if there's any problem
with the,
if there's apparently
any problem
with the line.
Well,
they'll tell you
if the line
is checking okay.
Will they tell you
if there is a voice
on the line?
They won't tell you
if there's a voice
on the line
but they'll tell you
if the line
is in use
or apparently in use.
I see.
That's a very good
suggestion, sir.
Very good.
My hat's off to you
on that one.
Yeah.
And one other thing
which isn't,
which is somewhat different
from what you've been
talking about
but I got a piece
of junk mail
from my Discover card
and now you can use
the Discover card
sort of similar
to the,
uh,
AT&T Universal card
except you put in
your Discover card
phone number
and this will get
you a sprint.
So you're saying
you can use
your Discover card
as a sprint
calling card?
Yeah.
And the first,
uh,
invoice you get
from,
from Sprint
which presumably
is payable in full
like the AT&T
they give you
a credit
of 10 minutes
uh,
of,
of,
of Sprint
service
a 3,000 mile call
at the night
weekend rate
and I called up
uh,
Discover card
and they revealed
that the amount
of credit
is
three,
let's see,
is it,
uh,
no,
two dollars
and five cents
which apparently
is ten minutes
worth of phone calls
plus the 70 cent,
75 cent surcharge
for interstate calls.
Interesting.
And,
so, uh,
you know,
uh,
uh,
they have a,
they have a number,
they have a thing that,
they don't call it a pin
because you already have a pin
to get,
uh,
for your Discover card
to get money out of cash machines,
ATMs,
but you have,
they have another four digit number
which they call something else
and that's what you stick
at the end of your,
what do they call it?
I forget what they call it.
But it's,
uh,
does these four numbers
have any meaning?
Uh,
no,
it's like,
it's like,
it's the same thing as a pin
except it's for,
it's for making phone calls
instead of taking money
out of an ATM.
So they give you two pins?
Essentially,
they wind up with two pins,
yeah.
Well,
that's nice and confusing.
to verify that.
Okay.
That's brilliant of them,
right?
Uh-huh.
Sounds,
sounds great to me.
Thanks for calling.
Let's take,
uh,
one more phone call.
Good evening.
Yeah,
hi.
How you doing?
Uh,
I want to ask you a question.
I have an 800 number
that I use at home
because I work at home,
uh,
for business purposes.
For,
uh,
about three months,
I've been getting
about four different,
uh,
uh,
like,
calls for other companies,
right?
Uh-huh.
And no matter what I do
or how I check it out,
everybody that I ask
to repeat,
like,
the number,
they all say my number.
And I try calling the number
and,
uh,
getting information,
uh,
try it everywhere
to find out.
Uh,
none of these companies
are listed as having
800 numbers.
It's,
it's for different companies?
Right.
So I,
my bill is like an extra
$100,
$150 a month
because I get so many calls,
um,
you know,
from people looking for,
you know,
for these companies.
Well,
now,
four different ones.
The,
uh,
is your,
what company does your
800 number go through?
Uh,
AT&T.
It is AT&T.
Uh,
they really should,
uh,
should tell you
if someone else
had the number
before you
and obviously
if that person
or company
got a lot of phone calls
at that number,
then,
uh,
you're still going to get
a residual amount.
I would suggest
changing the number.
Is that going to be
a real pain
for you to do?
Well,
yeah,
I've sent out a catalog,
but,
but the problem
is this,
that when I call up
information,
nasty information,
like,
let's say,
uh,
the company,
John Deere is one
of the companies,
right?
Let's say John Deere.
Right.
I want to call
John Deere 800 number.
They don't,
they don't have any listing
for an 800 number.
Well,
probably because
either they went
out of business
or they took
that 800 number down,
which is why
you got it,
you see.
They're always
changing 800 numbers.
That's...
And I have no rights
in the thing at all.
Well,
yeah,
you do.
I mean,
you can,
you can complain
a lot to AT&T
and if that doesn't work,
call the FCC
because they,
uh,
they are in charge
of,
uh,
of AT&T's pricing structure.
This is not fair.
You should not have
to pay for that
and any rational person
can see that.
Good question.
I'm afraid we're out of time.
Anybody else do 800 numbers?
I'm sorry?
Any other companies
do 800 numbers
besides AT&T?
Yes,
uh,
in fact,
I can suggest
cable and wireless
is a very good alternative.
Giving out the same numbers
as AT&T?
Uh,
they don't give out
the same numbers
but they give out numbers
and it only costs
$10 a month
so you really can't lose,
you know?
What's the name of it?
Uh,
cable and wireless,
um,
they're,
they should be listed
in the,
uh,
800 directory.
Okay,
cable and wireless.
Thanks very much.
All right,
thanks for calling.
And,
uh,
yes,
uh,
that's,
uh,
a fairly good deal
compared to a rather
raw deal.
And it looks like
we're out of time
once again.
But,
we'll be back again
next week.
Same time,
same place.
Stay tuned for the
Personal Computer Show.
This is Emmanuel Goldstein.
Good night
Stay Awake.
Stay Awake.
I cut myself
while shaving
Now I can't make a call
It couldn't get much worse
But if they could,
they would
Bum,
diddley,
bum
For the best
to stay
For worse
I hope that's understood
Bum, diddley,
boom!
Stay Awake
Don't rest your head
Stay Awake
Don't rest your head