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Over and most old Jurisistan.
and a very good evening to one and all the program is off the hook this is Emmanuel Goldstein with
you for the next hour talking about all kinds of technological and innovative type of things and
taking your phone calls at 279-3400 as always well what's new this week all kinds of things are
are happening as always and the secret is how to interpret the news that we hear and how to
translate it into whatever it holds in the future for instance you may have seen an article in today's
New York Times about how a file that was used to deport Jews was found by the French prominent
hunter of Nazis announced yesterday that after more than 40 years of looking researchers have
found a comprehensive file of the names of 150,000 Parisian Jews that the French police compiled during
World War two and used to round up tens of thousands of Jews the Nazi hunter Serge Klarsfeld said the files
which were missing since 1944 were discovered in the archives of the Ministry of Veterans Affairs the
fate of the files has been a mystery for decades and it's been suggested that some government officials
had hidden the files to avoid embarrassment about France's collaboration
The importance of these files comes from their having played such a sinister role Mr. Klarsfeld said in an interview
they were used to arrest tens of thousands of Jews and people have been searching for these files for 47 years
I think someone was hiding them he said
They were discovered when researchers working under Mr. Klarsfeld were looking through the Ministry's archives as part of a historical project on the deaths and deportation of the
French Jews in World War two
Now it's very interesting you might be saying to yourself that's a fascinating story Emmanuel but what does it have to do with technology?
Well we're talking more than 40 years ago the technology that existed then was simply a crude list of sorts
Were the same thing to happen today how much more efficient do you think it would be?
If you go to Germany today you'll find some rather sobering statistics and I'm not talking about all the neo-Nazis running around I'm talking about what is legal what is the law over there?
And one law that we've mentioned here before but it bears repeating it is a law that you have to carry an identity card at all times
No question about it you have to have it on you at all times
And on this identity card is your name first and last your address and if you move you have to register and tell the police tell the authorities that you have moved and your card must bear your current address
Also on this card is your date of birth where you were born and get this your nationality in other words where were you born where are you from are you German or are you a Turk or are you a Pole or Bulgarian or from some other place
Now it doesn't take much to realize that these are not just cards with this information that this information is also stored someplace
And as in the nature of any computer file it can be called up based upon any of the fields
So our little file that was used to deport the Jews that was found very recently
Had that file existed today
It would have been a lot more complete and a lot more easy to utilize and put into effect
For instance today in Germany if you wanted to and if you had the power you could get a thorough listing of everybody of a particular national descent
Or you could get a thorough listing of everybody whose last name was was Schmidt or something
You could get a listing of people who live in a certain town
You can get a listing of people who were born on a certain date
Whatever it is you want to get
Computers allow you to get that
So when you have information stored on you when you have identity cards and supercomputers
There's all kinds of things you can do
It's something that's definitely worth thinking about
And also, as a footnote to that
You might be interested to know that all of you that have passports
And I imagine quite a few of our listeners do have passports
Take a good look at them
These are American passports we're talking about
Look at the, I believe it's the last page
You'll see this very long number on the bottom of the form
And the number begins with a P
The P means passport, obviously
You might find it rather curious that the German system is exactly the same
Same numbering scheme and everything
The only difference is that their long number at the bottom begins with an I for ID
So it's the same system
I don't know if they're integrated
I don't know if they talk to each other
But it's the same system
And I've said about that
That's something that hopefully people will be keeping an eye on in the future
Also, some of us may have been listening to the news
Hearing some familiar names
And realizing that our own Amy Goodman was over in East Timor
During the revolution
I don't know if it's quite at a revolutionary stage yet
But it certainly will be soon
I'll read you the dispatcher came from the New York Times
An American journalist who witnessed the military attack on a procession of mourners in East Timor yesterday
Actually, it was on Monday
Said in an interview from a hospital in Guam that dozens and dozens of people had been killed
He said the troops had fired automatic weapons into the crowd
The journalist Alan Nairn, who was on assignment for the New Yorker magazine
Was beaten in the attack and had his passport confiscated
He flew to Guam by way of ballet
Shortly afterward by commercial airliner
And was admitted to Guam Memorial Hospital
Another American journalist, Amy Goodman
Producer at New York radio station WBAI
Was also in Timor during the attack
Was also beaten, but less severely
Thanks to Claude
We have an interview with Amy that was done over the BBC
We received it here at WBAI earlier
And we're going to play a bit of that
And also want to let people know that we've talked to Amy
She's okay, she's in Hawaii
She should be back in New York within a matter of days
So we're keeping an eye on that situation
But it just goes to show you that
We live in a very weird world
In the radio world especially
You never know what's going to happen next
So we've learned not to take anything for granted
Especially when we have crazy events in this world of ours
Alright, let's take a listen to the BBC
We'll be back with some phone calls
279-3400
Timor, when Indonesian troops opened fire on a crowd
Who had come to hear a memorial mask
Where a young man killed at a disturbance two weeks ago
Whereas a statement by the Indonesian military spoke of a riot involving anti-Indonesian groups
Eyewitnesses had a different story
And international condemnation has been unanimous
This included the UN General Secretary
The human rights group Asia Watch
And the Portuguese government
Which last month suspended the visit of a fact-finding mission to East Timor
Because Indonesia refused to accept one of the accompanying journalists
The incident in Dili was witnessed by two American journalists
Alan Nairn of New Yorker Magazine
And Amy Goodman, news editor for WBAI Radio in New York
Both were badly beaten up
And are being treated in a hospital on the island of Guam
There I contacted Amy Goodman
And she told me what happened
On Tuesday morning at 7 o'clock
There was a mass commemorating the funeral two weeks before
A young man who was killed by the Indonesian military
The mass ended
And then there was a repeat of the procession
A repeat of the processional route to the cemetery where he was buried
This time the difference was there were even more people
More than... there were several thousand people who marched
People joined all along the way
There were young people
Six and seven and eight years old
There were older people
Older women in their Timorese traditional costumes
There were students in there
Uniformed high school students
A real cross-section of society
When they got to the cemetery
It was basically over
And that was the end of it
That's how it had ended two weeks before
And everyone went home
But at that point the military moved in
From two different directions
When they converged
Just before they converged
We decided
If we were to stand in front
That Western journalists
Could possibly
Deter the violence
We could
Act as a shield
That the Indonesians would be less likely
To shoot
Where we were
Sadly
When they came up to us
They
Immediately
Started
Feeding me
Told my life
Came back
Came back
And pulled everything off
And then beat me
With rifle guns
And fists
And boots
And did the same with Alan
At the same time
There was a group of soldiers
Who were
Began firing
On a fleeing crowd
People screaming
Running in the other direction
Dozens of them
They were killed
Amy can we just
Restate this quite clearly
There was no provocation at all
From the crowd
Towards the military
Because this is obviously
The version we have
From the Indonesian military
Okay
At this point
There were the people
As they had been
Two weeks before
Who were in a demonstration
And a procession
And they were chanting
Viva Sebastiao
Viva East Timor
Just like they had
But this time
The difference was
The Indonesian military
Moved in
And fired on us
There was no Timorese weapons there
There was nobody
Throwing things at them
We were at the front
So we were in between
Both
We were there
Nothing was coming
From that side
There are some reports
That this incident
Happened because
The Indonesian military
Wanted to intimidate
The population
In advance of the
Planned Portuguese mission
Which was supposed
To come to East Timor
East Timor
Well I think
That the difference
Is not so much
How the Indonesian military
Stays
Because after all
Since 1975
Close to a third
Of the population
Has been killed
This is not so different
The difference is
With the fact
That the Portuguese
Delegation
Didn't come when
It said it would
The people
Were in despair
They were waiting
For this delegation
To report
Human rights
Despite the fact
That they had been
Terrorized
Everywhere we went
In the country
We heard stories
Of the military
Calling meetings
Saying that people
Would be killed
If they spoke to
The Portuguese delegation
People are at a point
Where they are willing
To talk
I mean clearly
They were willing
They were looking forward
They thought this
Was their only hope
And it was that
Frustration
To despair
That it didn't change
The military
I think
It changed the people
It made them willing
To do something
As dangerous
As have a demonstration
You would say
That it is very important
That as many foreign
Delegations as possible
Go there
It seems that the most
Important thing
Right now
Is that this
Is an extremely
Dangerous situation
We heard bullet shots
Well beyond
The time
Of that demonstration
8 o'clock in the morning
We don't know
What's happening
Right now
Right now
I think the most important
Thing is that
The United Nations
Move
The UN Security Council
Has to do something
There has to be
A peacekeeping for
It is a very
Very dangerous situation
American journalist
Amy Goodman speaking
From the hospital
In Guam
Cambodia
And as mentioned
That was Amy Goodman
Our own Amy Goodman
Over in East Timor
And as mentioned earlier
She is on her way
Back to New York
And hopefully
Will be here
Within a couple of days
Stay tuned for Pacifica News
At 11 o'clock
Rebroadcast
There will be
Another interview
With Amy
That is also quite good
That came from the BBC
Was monitored here
At WBAI
Just goes to show
The kind of things
That go on in this place
Get involved in just about
Everything that's happening
Out there
Okay
We're going to be taking
Phone calls in just a
Couple of moments here
At Off The Hook
Where we talk about
High-tech telephones
Computers
And yeah
Sometimes shortwave radio
As well
First a couple of
Of news items
From The Risks Digest
One of our favorite publications
That we quote from
This comes from
Neil Strauss
I recently used
A telephone at a customer
Of ours
Somebody that services
Various people I guess
To call my office voicemail
Voicemail
In case you don't know
Is sort of like
An answering machine
Except you can call it
From any place
And lots and lots of people
Share the same voicemail system
This phone had an LED display
Which echoed every button
I pressed from the time
The handset was raised
Until I hung up
Kind of like one of those
Alternate pay phones
Where you enter the numbers
And you see them on the screen
Well this resulted in my
Voicemail password
Being prominently displayed
To any passing individual
The risks of my voicemail
Being compromised
Are relatively small
But the same type of
Compromise
Would have occurred
If I had been using
A telephone credit card
I learned after completing
The call
That there is a button
On the phone
Which will prevent
Button presses from echoing
But this button
Was not clearly labeled
And could not be used
By an uneducated user
The most logical approach
To a status display
On the phone
Is to echo the phone number
To prevent wrong numbers
And then inhibit echoing
After the call
Has been connected
I also wonder
If a phone that displays
My keystrokes
May not also be recording
Them somewhere
For accounting purposes
And that's a very good
Point there
I've stayed in the hotels
Where they record
Every digit you dial
If you use your calling card
They record those numbers
That means if they're
Unscrupulous
They have your calling card
And they can use it
If they wanted to
They can also use
Any other touch tone
That you might happen
To pass through
Their switchboard
For voicemail
For banking by phone
You name it
It's all in there
So something to be aware of
Okay we were talking
Last week about
Homes getting too hot
You know those
Computerized thermostats
That just don't know
When to quit
Well someone else wrote in
With a problem
Involving ovens
This is from Jane Beckman
Also from the Risks Digest
Seeing the recent discussion
Of furnace thermostats
Going haywire
Reminded me of a recent problem
A friend had with her oven
That's right
Her stove is one of those
Modern models
With electronically regulated
Oven temperature control
Digital readouts
Well works
These things are great
Until something goes wrong
She was making some cookies
And when she took them out
She thought
It was weird
That they were black
And charred
Beyond recognition
The timing was right
But the oven temperature
Seemed to be
Way too high
She turned off the oven
And didn't think a thing about it
Until she put a casserole
Inside the oven
A couple of days later
The casserole seemed to be
Cooking too fast
The oven was like a blast furnace
And yet
The stove told her
Everything was fine
So
She decided
To turn off the oven
And the oven
And the oven spoke to her
And said
Why are you doing this?
I'm afraid, Jane
The oven
Would not
Okay, I'm elaborating a little bit here
The oven would not turn off
For the next couple of hours
She tried to turn off the oven
To no avail
The kitchen was getting pretty warm by then
In more ways than one
The final solution to this was to turn off the gas to the stove
She called the repairman
And when he came out and evaluated the problem
It turned out some vital piece of electronics had shorted out
And the cost of replacement was $200
Which was a sizable chunk of the price of the stove
For the price of the stove
She seriously
Discussed simply replacing the stove with a $400 non-electronic stove
For fear of this happening again
But finally broke down and had it fixed
She's had other problems since
With the temperature not being what the sensors think it is
But
No point getting into all that
And it's pretty much
The news that's circulating in the world of electronics and computers and phones and that kind of thing
Oh, one other thing
One thing that we do want to update you on
Since we talked about this, I believe, two weeks ago
Remember the 1-800-FRIENDS service
Well, if you weren't here for that
It was a service that MCI was offering
For people that subscribe to their friends and family circle service
And what the friends and family circle service basically is
Is a way that you can save money
If you call somebody, say a friend or a family member
That also has selected MCI as their long distance phone company
You can have them added to your list
And every time you call them, you'll save 20%
Good deal, huh?
Yeah, but the question came up
Well, how do I know who's on my list?
How can I check and make sure that, you know, cousin Gertrude is on my particular calling list?
Well, the geniuses at MCI had a solution for this
They had an 800 number that you could call up
And actually get this information
Now, to get this information, of course, you would have to enter your phone number
And for security purposes, to make sure it was really you
You entered your zip code
And we were able to literally guess some phone numbers and zip codes
And listen to a full listing of people's phone numbers that they were calling
You know, these could be unlisted phone numbers
They could be all kinds of things you don't want to get out
We were able to call up and access this simply because we knew the phone number and we guessed the zip code
When you have a phone number, it's not too hard to get the zip code
So, we were able to do that
And not only were we able to get the phone numbers
But we were also able to get the relationship of the person to the number that we had
For instance, it would say, your wife at this number
Your brother-in-law at this number, your business associate, et cetera, et cetera
Now, something has changed
And as our friend to dial tone, we're going to call up this particular number one more time
And show you what a little publicity on a New York City radio station can do
Take a listen to this
The new MCI Friends Service
Welcome to MCI's Friends and Family Circle update line
Please enter your telephone number beginning with your area code
Okay, we're going to do that, but of course, we're not going to let you hear the actual number that we're entering
Sorry
Thank you
One moment, please, while we access your account
Congratulations and thank you for being one of our valued friends and family customers
Your calling circle consists of
Four members and
Two nominees
If you would like to inquire about a specific member or nominee to your calling circle, press 1
To hear the status of all members and nominees in your calling circle, you will need your MCI account number
This number can be found on the MCI portion of your telephone bill
If you do not know your account number, please hold for an MCI representative
If you have your account number available, press 2
Well, since I have no idea who that phone number belongs to, I don't have the account number
I could make a guess, I suppose
But they said that if you don't have the account number, stay on the line
An MCI person will probably tell you what the account number is
So it's not entirely uncrackable, but it's a little bit better
A little bit better
And I guess that's about the best we can hope for
So that's the update on the MCI friend's situation
If you have a similar type of a number or some other scandal you'd like to share with us
Feel free to send it in to Off The Hook
Care of WBAI 505 8th Avenue, New York, New York
10018
And we'll be taking phone calls now
212-279-3400
Oh, we have fiber optic in the studio
Hacker extraordinaire
If I can figure out what microphone you're on
Try that one
Hello, listeners
That's the one
Let's try this one
Hello, listeners
No, no
I think I got it now
Go ahead
Hello, listeners
That's the one, that's the one
There we are, okay
Fiber optic is a, well you might have seen him on several TV shows recently
But we won't get into that because, you know, publicity is something that is a sore subject among hackers
Sometimes it's good, sometimes it's bad
And recently it hasn't been all that great
But if you have any questions for hackers in general, give us a call
And we'll be happy to help you out with various privacy issues and other things
You can ask personal questions about, you know, hackers, what they do when they're not hacking
Right? Yeah, you don't mind talking about that kind of thing, do you?
No, sure, we're people too
Yeah, that's a lot of people don't realize that is that hackers are people
I think you said it very well
Okay, let's take some phone calls here
Good evening, you're our first phone call
Yeah, that's still good
Hello?
Daniel?
Yeah, go ahead
Yeah, I want to ask you a couple of things from last week's show
2600 Magazine
What's their phone number and how can you get in touch with them?
Okay, I'll give you the phone number, it's area code 516-751-2600
Okay
And that should give you all the information you need if you call that number
The next one, you were talking with someone last week about a magazine called Security Dealer, which is my field, do you have an address for them?
No, you know, I don't have an address for that
For that I would suggest going downtown to either Hudson News or Tower Books, because they have just about every magazine under the sun
Yeah, that's on Broadway
Okay
Try them out, ask them if they've ever heard of it
And just keep asking around, if and when you find out
And if somebody out there perhaps knows the address or the number for the security dealer, right?
Okay
Yeah, give us a call and we'll be happy to pass that information along, because I'd sure like to see that myself
Thank you
Now they were talking also about this emergency 24
About which?
The emergency 24 number
The 800 number
Right
Right, we mentioned that last week
What is that service about?
You're talking about 800-282-0911, right?
That's correct
I'm not quite sure what the service is, because I just tried calling them a little while ago and there was no answer
So if it's an emergency service, I don't think I'd like to use them for emergencies
Long time, they do answer
Uh-huh
It rings a very long time
Well, okay, but if it has anything to do with emergencies, you don't want it to ring a very long time
That's right
Yeah
And the last question, what's the number for internet?
Oh, okay, well that's, maybe I'll give that one to FiberOptic here, you can probably explain it better than me
Okay
Okay, well internet isn't exactly directly accessible through the phone lines
But what it is, is a worldwide computer network consisting of government agencies, universities, etc. and so forth
And you might want to inquire at your local university or campus about being able to obtain an account if one is such available
Yeah, it's worth actually taking a course to get an internet account, such as at NYU or Columbia or something like that
And that way you'll have a link literally to the whole world
I mean, maybe we could give an example as to what people can do with an internet account
Sure
As opposed to say a CompuServe account
You can do a lot more with access to the internet
You would have access to a wide variety of corporations that deal in software development
And there's a lot of archive sites out there where you could transfer files to and from the site
And a lot of them are specifically geared towards a certain type or model of computer
And besides that, you can also engage in electronic mail
And you'd be able to be in contact with people throughout the entire planet
On an instantaneous basis
I've had chats with people in Holland
And it's live as they're speaking to you, you're speaking to them
And it's not costly either because the internet is part of the educational system
Pretty good
Okay
Thanks very much
This is my contribution tonight
Okay
Thanks for calling
Thank you
Okay
Good evening
Thank you
First turn on your radio
Hello
Oh boy
Here we go
Here's the situation
Last week
By the way, I enjoy the program very much
Oh, thank you
Last week
You talked about dumping or putting some information from a computer on a telephone line over a 24 hour period
Right, yeah
Last week for the listeners I was downloading something as I was on the air for over 24 hours
I'd copied files from Australia over the internet to a local system and was downloading them over the phone lines
And I had done it in such a way that it was all for the price of a local phone call which was untimed
Cost me about 10 cents for the whole deal
That's a residential line, right?
Yeah
You couldn't do it on a business line because those calls are timed
Yeah, they are timed
Every business call is timed
But a local call would not be as much obviously as a long distance one even for that
Now, I was troubled by that in this respect
Some years ago there was a whole movement in the PSC especially headed by Alfred Kahn who was the Public Service Commission Chairman
And his concept was usage sensitive rates
And what he wanted to do was replace the untimed message unit
Which by the way is very pertinent to New York City where you have no flat rate service of any merit, you know
And he wanted to time these calls and if you were on for five minutes you pay double, over five minutes you pay double and triple and so forth every five minutes
We had a whole statewide movement to set the commissioner or the chairman a little straight on this
And he did come around and say, okay, you can keep your runtime message unit but you have to pay extra
But if you have your calls timed we'll give you a lower rate and a lower cost per call
And one of the objections or one of the excuses for this was specifically that people with computers
Of course this was back in 1974, 75, could take advantage of the system cause, you know, by using and tying up a telephone line for days
It could put an unusual burden on the central office
Well, I can guarantee that even if there were a hundred people doing exactly what I was doing at that particular moment
It would not be causing a strain
We've advanced technology to the stage where we can handle that kind of capacity
And that's precisely why we shouldn't be paying huge amounts and paying every single minute for it
You know, there comes a time where it balances out, where the system has paid for itself
And where you should start reaping the benefits of the system
Yeah, well, I'm just concerned, I'm very active before the Public Service Commission
And I'm just concerned that they may reinstitute their drive to, you know, they're trying to drive people off flat rate service
And the rest of the New York telephone area by pricing the things sky high
An example is if you're in Buffalo, you pay about $25 for flat rate service
And if you're in California or in the biggest city like Los Angeles, you pay about $8,000
So they don't like people on flat rate service
Well, you know, I pay a fair amount for flat rate service, but I'm, you know, I'm going to use it
Oh yeah, you pay a fair amount, but compared to what's going on in the rest of the country
The New York rates are much higher
But the big point was that in New York City, where you're stuck with message rate calling and no alternative
There's no alternative except for small pockets in Queens and Staten Island
We've got to protect that unlimited call, mainly for the, you know, residential subscribers
Because the hue and cry was tremendous when they talked about raising the, when they talked about timing the message units
And senior citizens groups and volunteers who helped the, you know, who call up shut-ins and things like that
Felt that this would just price them out of existence
Well, let me just say one thing though
Yeah
You never get what you want out of something by being overly cautious about it
You've got to reach out and take what you believe you have the right to do
And I think that's what we're talking about here
A good example is bulletin boards
Right now there's, there's moves as there have always been, you know, rumblings of, of some kind of an idea by phone companies
To charge extra for, for lines that are used for bulletin boards
Had we gone about it, you know, asking the phone company
Well, what is, what is best here?
What, you know, what do you want to do?
What do we want to get out of it?
Obviously we will be, we would be paying more at this particular point in time
But instead what has happened is
We've reached out and we've done it anyway
We've used bulletin boards
We've, we've used phone lines for, for motor connections left and right over the past couple of decades
And now we're used to it and we're not going to give it up because we're used to it
We're used to having the same rights for a data call as we are for a voice call
Now had we gone about it in a, in a more cautious way
It's very likely that the phone companies could have had their way
What, what I'm saying is
If you have the capability to, to do something with technology, do it
And, you know, place the onus on the phone company or whatever other company to make you change
But don't make it the other way around
Where, you know, it's, the phone company is, is the status quo and you've got to change them
Because that rarely works
We, uh, recently, uh, in a New York rape case, uh, made the big point that the technological changes, uh, were, uh, made it, made it unnecessary really to, uh, spend the money of putting people on measured service, which is an extra cost and to, uh, when they're on message service, you have to go into things like, uh, pro, if they say, well, there was something wrong and I didn't make $350
You have to make $350, uh, message units this month, that kind of thing
Right
You, you, uh, have to have personnel of the phone company involved in arguing those things and so forth
And meanwhile, people who are active in their communities, uh, find themselves, it's very expensive to be active in your community, where you have to pay for each call, uh, whereas if you were in another state, uh, uh, where you had a different public service commission, you would have flat rate service at a reasonable rate
The rules are different just about every place you go, and it brings up another sore point with me
Yeah
Non-profit organizations, why don't they get non-profit phone rates? They pay the same business rates as everybody else. It doesn't make sense to me
Listen, sir, thanks very much for calling. I want to get to some more phone calls
Okay
279-3400 is our phone number. Good evening
Manuel?
Yeah, go ahead
Alright, how you doing?
Just fine, how are you?
Okay, I got a quick telephone question for you
Okay
I got a copy of Radio Shack's Understanding Telephone Electronics
It's the, um, 6th printing, came out in
Came out in 1987?
Yeah
That's pretty dated
A lot has changed since 1987
A lot has changed, huh?
Yeah, I suggest you pick up a new, uh, new edition of that
New edition?
I assume it comes out every year, does it not?
Yeah, I picked this up used for a buck
So I don't do that too
Well, now you know why things sell for a buck
Well, what I would suggest you do is get the new one
And compare all the bits of information
Because, I mean, you know, anything in there is probably wrong by now
You know, the names of phone companies, for instance
You know, they've changed
Okay, well basically
The way you make phone calls has changed
Not dramatically, but there are all kinds of different things to do now
And technology has advanced a lot in four years
Now this is a basic electronics
I mean, telephone system convention
Telephone set, electronic speech circuits, et cetera
Digital transmission techniques
Right, the basics aren't going to change
Right, now these are the basics
I think that's what this covers
If that's the entire thing the book covers
I thought it covered a little bit more than that
It goes from the telephone system all the way up to
Wireless telephones, modems, network transmissions
So it's, it's almost a textbook
It's written by a pair of engineering professors
So, I mean, knowing that, do you still think it's dated?
What do you think, Fiber?
Is this the red book?
This is the, this is the red book
Okay
It is the red book
Yeah, the book is slightly dated if you notice
Well, a lot of it is good and is still up to date in many respects
Right
But in the section about switching systems
They only go so far as to mention
The number one electronic switching system from AT&T
Which is incredibly dated
It doesn't even go really in
It goes into digital communications
But it doesn't specifically go into digital switches per se
Well, that's a lot more dated than 1987, isn't it?
Oh, yeah
Okay, it came out in 1987
But I guess I want to get into this more
I'm sort of ignorant of it
I guess I should get a more recent copy then
It would be a good idea
And also in the mobile telephone section that's incredibly old
They went into cellular
But if I remember at the point of the printing of that book
Cell sites were still only at 666 cells per site
And currently we're at 832
So you'll notice that the section on mobile telephone service
Is in many respects dated
Really?
Okay, I mean I'm not disappointed
Because as I said I really don't know much about it
So I've had it lying around for a little while
And I wasn't sure whether it was worth the buck
Well, I could always resell it
Yeah, it's probably worth a dollar
Yeah
Okay, at any rate I'll let you go
Thanks a lot
Thanks for your call
Good evening
Hi Emmanuel
How are you doing?
I wanted to comment on one of your stories
That you talked about
The ID cards in Germany
The German cards, yeah
Right
In general, in listening to your show
Which I usually do if I have the time
I usually agree with you
But on this one I don't agree with you
I personally support the idea of identity cards in the U.S.
And the main reason
Well, one argument I could make in favor of it
Is you mentioned the business of Germany
Obviously Germany's past
And using these lists to
Or using the information to produce lists of people
By whatever characteristic, ethnic background or whatever
First of all, I would say that the U.S. government
And various state governments have information that would be adequate
If you cross-referenced various files to produce very similar types of lists
So, you know, the facility, the capability is right here in the U.S. without identity cards
The plus to identity cards is, first of all, you have the identity card in your possession
It's not something that's going to be accessed by somebody without your knowledge
Like certain information can be
You hand it to, presumably, let's say a police officer or some official
Who can check on whether, let's say, you are, for instance
An escaped Nazi, if you want to talk about the use of it
Or some other criminal
In other words, it can be used in apprehending criminals
Well, of course
And I think that that's, you know, a big plus for it
You can find positive aspects for these kind of things
You can say, oh, it'll find missing children and all that
The particular point with the German cards, though
It's not so much the card itself
It's the fact that the data is obviously being stored someplace else
And can be accessed
And when you make it a law to carry a card
You're saying if you do not have a card, you're a criminal
You don't, you know, you are breaking a law if you do not have this card
And imagine if you were
And I'm not saying they're anywhere close to doing this
I'm just saying we're, you know, we're making technology now
That could be used in some future era in a bad way
And we've got to watch out for that
If somebody was on a list
Say that, you know, that Turks or Bulgarians
Were, you know, people that were being sought after
And hunted down like, you know, animals
They could not hide
They could not throw away their ID card
Because if they do that
Then they're criminals for not having ID cards
And if they have them
Then obviously they're who they say they are
You know, the only thing you can do is make a fake one
And that's extremely hard
They're very sophisticated systems
It's like making a fake passport
I would assume that they're linking into some computer system
Where they have, let's say, a magnetic tape in the back
And they could, you know
I mean, you can't just fake an identity card
I would assume
I mean, I don't know the details of the system
But...
The thing is, when you start categorizing and listing people
The potential for abuse is extraordinary
And you've got to be very careful about that
But don't you agree that in the U.S. right now
Let's say the census data
The census data that is kept
Which has name, address, and ethnic background
And that sort of thing
Which supposedly is to be used only for statistical analysis
Blah, blah, blah
But let's face it
If you have an unscrupulous person
Who has access to that kind of data
They can get the same kind of information
That's available through the identity card
Don't you think that's correct?
Except for the fact that it's not a law for you to have
A particular kind of I.D. on you at all times
Right
And that's a big difference
Well, I...
If, say, it was required that you carry your social security number
With you at all times
No
And that was your actual name
Your social security number
Which, in fact, it really is
Right
Then it would be a lot more dangerous
Because you would have to produce it upon demand
And, also, keep in mind these German I.D. cards
You have to have your current address on them
Now, you know, you don't get in trouble
If you don't tell the social security department that you moved
Over there you can
And, the thing is, you know
Even if it's not so bad over there now
Or over here now
It can get worse
And that's why we have to at least understand what's going on
Yeah, well, okay
I can see your point
But I still feel that they're useful
But, anyway, I had another question for you
On telephones
There used to be a way of getting your own phone to ring
And I was wondering if you knew how to do that
In other words, there was a sequence of numbers you could dial
And cause your own phone to ring
Well, there still is
But it depends where you are
It's different for every location
Where exactly
212
Just a 212 area code
We can probably give you a couple of ideas
Do you have any ideas you want to share, Father?
Yeah, sure
The most easiest thing to do is dial 660
In the last four digits of your phone number
And if that returns your dial tone back again
You can flash the switch hook a single time
That should give you a high-pitched tone
Hang up the phone and it should ring
To make it stop, pick it up and hang it up quickly
Does that really work still in New York City?
Yeah
So 660, last four digits
Then what are you doing?
You pick up
Right
660 and the last four digits of your telephone number
And then if it returns your dial tone
Dial tone
Flash the switch hook
In other words, just hang up and pick up again
Right
You should get a high-pitched tone
When you get that, hang the phone up and it should begin to ring
Okay, great
That's interesting
Okay, thanks a lot
Thanks for calling
I find a lot of times when you dial 660
You get a dial tone right there on the spot
Yeah, those are in older systems
That's an older system
Yeah
So 660 plus four is actually a newer system
Yeah, that's how it's been for quite some time
Actually, you know, a lot of 660s that I've been dialing
They wait for ten numbers afterwards
Are they waiting for the entire area code as well?
In some places in the city, most of the time
It might ask you or it might wait for seven additional digits
Which would be your entire telephone number
That's only in certain exchanges and not entirely standard
The standard method is 660 in the last four digits
Uh-huh
Oh, by the way, a new ANAC has been found on Long Island
ANAC being automatic number
Announcement
Announcement
AC is announcement, right?
Yeah
And that returns your phone number
958 works in New York City
And the surrounding areas
Not New Jersey, though, I don't believe
But in some places, 511 has been sent to work
So you might want to run out and try that
And see if it returns your phone number
Okay, 279-3400
Let's take a few more calls
Good evening
Hello, anybody there?
Nobody's there
Good evening
Yes, Emmanuel
I have four or five points
I'll try to get through them very quickly
Make it quick
If you've got four points
Go ahead
Well, as a preface, I should say that
In reference to that last caller
That fellow has an incredibly naive view of government
And I wondered what the founding fathers would think of his view
In the sense that government will use any information you would give them
And
It's important not to fall into the trap, you know
It breeds the need for more power
But in any sense, in any event
What I wanted to talk about was
I'm in New Jersey
And I have noticed at payphones
That when I try to use
And I have US Sprint and I have the phone card
When I try to use the phone card at non-New Jersey Bell payphones
After I dial the access code
I get a computer tone
But I'm not able to use the phone card
There are no tones that will be generated when I press the buttons
They cut off your touch tones
Do you know if they cut off your mouthpiece as well?
I don't know that
Well, you can usually tell by blowing into the mouthpiece
And if you're able to hear the sound of you blowing into the mouthpiece in your ear
You'll know that they haven't cut that off
Right, is that legal?
You know, it's hard to say
Because you're in Jersey
It might be different than in New York
Although on the phones it says that you have a right to the company of your choice
For long distance calls
Uh huh
It's interesting because
Again, this only applies to non-New Jersey
Some non-New Jersey Bell phones
You see the ads
You see the ads for AT&T and everything saying that
You know, from a non-Bell phone
You can always dial 102-88
I have yet to find a single co-cut
It's a customer-owned coin-operated telephone
That allows you to dial 102-88
You know, to get another phone company
I have yet to see that
Right, I'm moving right along
Another problem at
Well, let me answer
For the benefit of the listeners
Let me just answer the question here
Now, for people that want to complain
There's always a public service commission number on the phone
That's legal
That's supposed to be there
There's no question about that
How helpful they will be
That's open to debate
Because I've complained many times about various things
There's a phone out by me
That charges $9.95 to call 800 information
And that's just not right
Okay, let's resume our caller here
And in the space where they had a
He hasn't missed a beat
On the payphone card
Where they were offering emergency numbers
It was blank
Uh-huh
So I'm just wondering
That could be catastrophic
If you weren't able to reach the operator for an emergency
No, that's true
No, that's true
And that situation should be also complained about
Okay, moving along
Moving along, yes
Something that happened, by the way, while I was calling you
I was using a 10222
I think that's MCI access
That's right
And after it rang a certain number of times
It was an instant disconnect
Where that didn't happen
When I got your number again with my U.S. Sprint
So you're saying about how many rings?
Well, it was about
I'd say after about four minutes
After about four minutes
And then there was a tone
So MCI is now doing that, too
Yeah
I heard that AT&T was going to start doing that
I don't think they are, though
Yeah
But I'd like to hear from some more out-of-state callers
What phone companies are doing that
So now we have MCIs definitely
Yes
Cutting us off after four minutes of ringing
And again, now
Also, could you elaborate
Perhaps after I hang up
On that 950 service
You had mentioned that Metro Media
Carries that 950 service
Because I'm really sick and tired
And I didn't know I could do it any other way
But I've been using my phone card from
What is it?
U.S. Sprint
To make calls, you know, throughout the area
More or less local calls
That pay phones
That's a waste
It's a big waste
And I'm charged, of course, exorbitantly
Yeah, you get charged a surcharge
I said this last week
I don't know why they're charging you a surcharge
Because that phone card is only good for one thing
And they shouldn't charge you extra for doing that one thing
Which is making phone calls
Right, considering I don't even have U.S. Sprint for my home phone
Okay
It's just for the purposes of travel card
Okay, what you want is the
If you want this one in particular
Metro Media has a service called the Metro Media ITT preferred calling card
And what you do basically is you dial 950-0488
It's a toll free call from anywhere in the country
And then you enter your code and the phone number that you want to call
Actually, the number you want to call, then your code
Now, it's kind of hard to get these things
You have to sort of fill out a credit application
But if you ask them that you
You know, you say very stubbornly that you want the preferred calling card
Eventually, you will get it
And their number is 800-275-0200
And it's no surcharge
You basically use the service
And you make phone calls
And you pay for the phone calls
But you don't pay a surcharge
Thanks for the call
Let's try to get a couple more of the time that we have left
Good evening
Oh, hello?
Yes, go ahead
Manuel, hi
I have something very relevant for you
Okay
Follow up on something last week
And then I also have a question too
About telephones
All right
I called and spoke to you last week
About something the fellow just before me mentioned
On the MCI
Cutting off of the ringing of the phone if it's not answered
Were you the person
And I tried your experiment at you
Right
I dialed the number through my regular
I'm in New Jersey, by the way
Uh-huh
I'm in New Jersey and I'm calling you to New York
And I tried the number through my regular MCI
And it rang exactly four minutes
And it cut off
No message
No explanation
Okay, so let me just
For the benefit of the listeners
Verify this
MCI cuts you off after four minutes of ringing
No answer
So for anybody that has to use a long distance company to call us
Let me say right now for the record
Do not use MCI because they'll cut you off
Now I'm calling you right now through the AT&T access number
Which was ringing for more than 40 minutes so far
Really?
Picked up
I have been waiting ringing for almost your entire show
It's 40 minutes
Well that's interesting because some parts of the country AT&T is doing the exact same thing
But apparently not here yet and hopefully never
So you can use AT&T to call here
I dialed through to 10288
I'd like you to also try Sprint in the future
Try 10333, see what they do
And maybe Metromedia 2, 10488
Now also what I did was I called up MCI customer service
Yeah
I spoke to the supervisor of the customer service because the initial person didn't know
Of course not
And I had a very lengthy conversation with him about this
And he didn't really know that much about it either
Said no one had ever asked about it before
And I know that this is new because I've always had MCI for several years
And it's only the last few months that this has happened
With the cutting off after four minutes thing
Did you tell this person that it's very likely you'll have to switch long distance companies because of it?
I explained to him
Well he first couldn't offer any explanation
Because when he saw that I wasn't going to be satisfied with some glib remarks
They kept going back and forth
He didn't seem sure whether it was the local company or MCI who was doing this
And he kind of came down on the side of
I should contact my local phone company to see whether they're the ones
You see in some cases, in quite a few cases actually
The local company does cut off after say about 25 rings and turns the ring into a fast busy
But it would happen the same way on every long distance phone company you would use
So obviously that's not the case here
What reason would they be treating your call differently from if I called AT&T's
And he couldn't offer an explanation for why it would be different for the two
But again, nothing real definite from them
So I will be contacting the local company just to make sure it isn't them
And I think if it is not them and if it is MCI
I probably will have to switch because I'll never be able to call BAI again
Well, I'd like for all of our listeners to call MCI about that as well
It seems like we're really harassing MCI tonight
But, you know, they wanted to get into the phone business
So welcome to it
I once told you to ask me last week to call back and let you know what happened
Well, thanks for doing that
Okay, you're welcome
I have one other question for you
Yeah, go ahead
I recently got a solicitation from this company called Working Assets Long Distance
Uh-huh
What they do is they use Sprint
Why don't you tell me how that works
Because they say that they give you long distance service just like a regular
It sounds like it's just like a regular phone company
It's a good deal
Working Assets basically uses Sprint lines
And they take 1% of whatever they charge
And donate that to various non-profit organizations
You get the service of Sprint
And it's, you know, you can sort of ease your conscience
If you think that you might be not doing enough, you know, nice things in the world
So Working Assets also has a Visa card
In fact, we talked to the president of Working Assets maybe about a year ago in this program
So, yes, I do recommend that
We're just about out of time
But I want to ask FiberOptik if he has any concluding remarks about anything that we might have said tonight
Well, not really
All I can say is keep on hacking
Yeah, that's really what we're all doing here is hacking to a degree
You know, by asking questions and by making royal pains of ourselves
We are all hackers in a sense
And it's going to just about do it for us here on Off the Hook
And we'll be back again next week
For yet another edition
Stay tuned for The Personal Computer Show
This is Emmanuel Goldstein
Good night
So I ripped it off the wall
I cut myself while shaving
Now I can't make a cough
It couldn't get much worse
But if they could, they would
Bum diddly bum for the best expect for worst
I hope that's understood
Bum diddly bum!
You know how do I do it better?
Transcription by CastingWords