Probably on the Wednesday after that, when we talk once again about science, the question
of war, peace, and the environment.
Good evening.
The Gay Show, here on WBAI, is heard every other Sunday night.
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Join me, along with Marl Becker, Alan Ross, Bob Storm, and Thomas Glaive, plus the commentaries
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And this is WBAI New York.
It's nine o'clock, time for Off the Hook.
And a very good evening to everybody.
This is Emanuel Goldstein.
The program is Off the Hook.
And tonight, once again, we're going to be talking about freedom of speech and how that
relates to the electronic world, the world of bulletin boards and things like that, and
whether or not it possibly conflicts with the world of bulletin boards and all that.
Stay tuned.
The Gay Show.
The Gay Show.
Well, we've heard it happen many times before in the past with the case of computer hackers
and various other people that have done some rather, well, I don't want to say objectionable
things, but just things that the government might not understand.
And computer hacking is certainly one thing that the government does not understand, but
it's not the only thing.
And I want to stress that the weeks that we are here together talking about the various
woes of computer hackers, well, it doesn't just affect the people who play with computers.
It affects everybody in the long term.
And I think tonight we're going to prove that in a rather scary way.
This is the story of Robert Thomas, who is a system operator of a bulletin board out
in the Bay Area in California.
And let me read to you, before we start speaking with Mr. Thomas himself, something that was
posted on The Well, which is a public UNIX system out in the Bay Area.
Robert Thomas is the system operator of a bulletin board known as Amateur Action.
In addition, Thomas runs several businesses out of his home where he lives with his wife
and children.
One is some sort of satellite deal, one is electronics repair, and one is the bulletin board.
And because of the physical set-up, either he or his wife are always watching the system
in real-time.
Now, this is the story.
On the morning of January 20th, at 7.30 a.m.
That was, incidentally, Martin Luther King Day, he and his family were rousted from bed
by five to seven officers of the San Jose Police Department.
He doesn't remember whether they had guns drawn or not.
He does remember them shining flashlights into his kid's room.
Eventually, they got permission to shut the front door and put some clothes on.
The warrant allowed the seizure of any computer equipment on the premises.
It was signed by Judge Charles W. Hyden, and the warrant was for grand theft, bringing
of obscene matter into state, and distributing slash possession of controlled matter of
sexual content of persons under 14.
Needless to say, the guy was flabbergasted, and the affidavit on which the warrant is
based is sealed by the court due to, quote, an ongoing investigation.
They took the approximately $20,000 to $30,000 worth of computer equipment, including the
souped-up 486 the board ran on, three 386s, including one that was shown at the time to
contain nothing but his kid's games and schoolwork, nine U.S. robotics modems, a scanner, a video
camera, a 35mm camera, and 30 to 50 videotapes.
They also took all business records relating to all three of his businesses, and according
to this posting, which was by Mary Eisenhardt of the magazine Microtimes, they more or less
turned the house upside down.
Well, that's quite a story, and we have Robert Thomas on the phone with us.
Robert, are you there?
Yes, I am.
Perhaps you can tell us something about, first of all, this bulletin board of yours.
It was called Amateur Action.
What was it all about?
Amateur Action BBS was basically started, oh, to basically, indifferent of the Playboy
and Penthouse and the copyrighted violations, scanned material.
I elected not to use that material, it's in violation of copyright, so I started Amateur
Action to, you know, to protect myself from those people and their material.
So basically, the board contained pictures of an adult nature.
Yes, adult-oriented pictures.
How did you obtain these pictures?
The pictures majority were obtained through a collection of photos and films that were
by a guy by the name of Peter DeCinci, and he was a very good friend of Russ Meyer in
the adult film world, and Peter collected these films and photos and releases from back
in the 50s, 60s, and 70s, and a good friend of mine got those when Peter died.
He gave those, he willed those to him, and we used many of the photos and the nostalgia
behind them to start my BBS.
I see, now how many users were there on your bulletin board?
Approximately 950 members.
I see, now, for somebody to call up and obtain one of these pictures, just for sort of the
technically minded, how would they go about doing this?
How would they transpose them into pictures?
If somebody were to call to get a picture?
Right.
You couldn't just call to get a picture.
Most of the time, callers would not get a picture of anything.
I did not offer anything on my bulletin board until the users were verified that they were
of age.
There was nothing available.
Okay, now when they passed the check, I guess, and we'll talk about that a little bit later,
how would they gain access to that material?
There was a database of picture files that I scanned personally myself of over 4600 files
that their security was raised, and they would have access to any file they wanted.
And these are known as GIF files, I believe, right?
Yes, they're GIF files, yes.
Okay, and it's a rather common thing, is it not, to, how many boards are there like your
board?
I would estimate there's thousands of boards like my board, adult material, across the
United States and, you know, worldwide, thousands and thousands of them.
I see.
Now, what kind of precautions did you take to make sure that underage kids didn't get
in to see these pictures and things like that?
Basically, 99% of all my members were Visa and MasterCard sign-ups, which means to have
a Visa or MasterCard, you must be the age of 18.
And I did call them.
I did have some underage kids log on, and they do not get pictures if they're underage.
And, you know, right away with the Wildcat BVS program, the name and the phone number,
as well as the age, comes on screen.
And right away, if they're underage, I just knock them off right there.
And how often does that happen?
There was, you know, quite a few underage try to get on there, but they would not get
very far.
My wife and I both were very, very good policemen, and if they got on, they would not get a picture
anyway.
They would have to join the BVS and be verified before they would get any adult material.
I see.
Now, how long have you been running this bulletin board for?
The bulletin board launched February 10, 1991.
So just under a year.
Now, you took, you're running this adult bulletin board, does it have just pictures, does it
have more than pictures?
All we offer is pictures.
We don't offer any shareware.
There is a message base, of course, for users to correspond, but that's all that we offer.
I see.
So you are running this adult-oriented bulletin board.
You are taking precautions to keep underage people and unauthorized users out.
And yet, on January 20th, your home was raided by law enforcement officials who, well, what
exactly did they say to you?
Maybe you want to describe the entire situation to us.
What the law enforcement said to me?
Well, let's just take it from you, sleeping peacefully, and all of a sudden, well, how
did they wake you up?
Yes, there was a knock at the door at approximately 7.30 a.m., and I looked out the little peephole,
and there was police officers, and they identified themselves, and I ran back in the bedroom.
I said, I told my wife that there was, the police were here, and she got her robe on
and ran to the door, and they started banging on the door.
Police officers let us in, and they were, to the point, they were just about ready to
break the door down.
She let them in, and they met me in the hallway, and I was in my pajamas, and they patted me
down, and then went to the rear of the house, flashlights, possibly guns drawn to.
I remember that vaguely, but I was about half asleep, and stormed into my kids' rooms, woke
them up, and, you know, that's basically how they entered our household.
Well, that must have been a tremendous thrill for your kids to be woken up by armed police
officers.
How old are your kids?
They're 11 and 14.
So what happened after everybody was awake?
Was there some sort of interrogation or anything like that?
Basically, they put the kids in my younger son's room, and they were playing a Nintendo
game on the TV in there.
We were at the dining room table, sitting there.
The officers were asking us questions.
They were going through our bedroom, and we could not see from where we were what they
were doing.
We had to ask permission to make a pot of coffee, to use the bathroom.
The front door was wide open.
It was very cold, and so on.
So how long were they in your house for?
They were in the house for approximately five hours.
And they took every bit of computer equipment that you had.
Did they take other things as well?
Yes.
They took every bit of computer equipment, including my children's computer.
They mentioned to the officers.
They were with the officers in the room, and they said, there's nothing here except for
our games and our schoolwork.
They turned the computer on and showed the officers that there was just games and schoolwork.
The officers turned the machine off and disconnected it and took it.
Did you ask what this was all about?
Did they say any kind of information?
Yes.
They gave us the copy of the warrant coming in, and I read the first page of the warrant
that listed grand theft and underage pictures and so forth.
Immediately, I said, you made a big mistake coming in here.
Very big mistake, and you'll find out.
What do you think grand theft is referring to?
I was not clear on that.
I was thinking maybe that they had that in there just in case any of my equipment was
stolen, which was purchased legally here in the Bay Area.
I have receipts to all that.
I just recently got wind that they were possibly referring to that I was advertising child
pornography but not delivering it, which is absurd.
That would certainly be a twist of unknown proportions that they would get somebody for
something like that.
They said that you had pictures of people underage.
Is that what they were accusing you of?
Yes.
They were accusing me of that, which there is not anybody near underage.
Everything on there is legal 100%.
They went through the bedroom, which is where the BBS was, confiscated magazines and photos
and whatnot.
You can kind of tell by their expressions by the time they came out into the living
room area and dining room where we were that they just had to look in their eyes like we
made a big mistake here.
They had access to everything within the room and there was nothing there.
There's nothing on the BBS, nothing in my household.
That's all I can say.
That's most incredible.
You must have been completely surprised by all this.
I was very surprised by all this.
It's a nice way to wake up on a holiday, especially the kids.
I really felt for them, although I wasn't even allowed to be with them during this.
Although I was not under arrest, they advised us of that.
You weren't allowed to move in your own house?
No.
Did they ask you any kinds of questions?
They asked me questions for about 30 minutes when they entered.
An officer sat down on the sofa and he asked me some questions and these were technical
questions as far as my machines go.
What does this machine have in it, the specs?
Just real technical questions is what they asked me, which I thought was kind of funny.
I don't know why they were asking that, at least he was.
The same officer did make a comment, too, that he would take good care of my equipment
because he knew the value and how much it meant to me.
He also made the comment that it would be safe because it would be in his office.
Wonderful.
Now, this bulletin board you were running, it was not your livelihood, in other words?
No, it was not.
Can you describe for us what else they took from you?
They took my satellite TV and electronic repair and they took records, brochures, items that
I need to pursue those businesses as well.
They were confiscated, too.
Customer records for my satellite business and you name it.
So in effect, they put you out of business?
Basically yes, they have put me out of business.
We were just trying to do our taxes and get everything together for the year.
We can't even do that now.
We have nothing, no records.
That's a frightening scenario here.
Were you at all familiar either before this or after this occurred with the incidents
two years ago involving Steve Jackson Games in Texas?
I was not aware of that.
I had no idea what happened to Steve Jackson at all until what happened to me.
I talked to some people, my godwin, and I was informed of that.
But the Steve Jackson case, I was not aware of.
For the benefit of our listeners, Steve Jackson still is actually a games manufacturer out
of Austin, Texas and his livelihood was seized and his company very nearly put out of business
because it was suspected that a hacker worked for him.
It took quite a bit of time to straighten that out.
In fact, Steve Jackson is currently suing the Secret Service for that particular incident.
This sounds like a very similar, maybe even more of a scary kind of a situation where
we have a guy here who is running a bulletin board system of an adult nature as well as
other things from his home, all of which were completely legal.
It is, I assume, legal in the state of California to do what you were doing.
Yes, it was legal, yes.
Everything that I had on my bulletin board and had within my household could be obtained
within the state of California within just a few miles.
Basically the same content, liquor store, adult bookstore type of material, or in New
York, the same thing applies.
You could obtain it legally any place anybody could.
So because the authorities take a dim view of the kind of material that you had in your
bulletin board, you are in effect being punished right now.
You have your businesses taken away from you, your kids have their computers taken
away from them, and hundreds of users cannot access a computer bulletin board that was
simply engaging in free speech.
What has happened since the seizure of January 20th?
Have they been in touch with you at all?
Yes, they have been.
There have been no charges filed, and I was not arrested at the time of the seizure.
The affidavit has been sealed by the court, so we don't have access to the reason why
they even came in to do what they did.
They're trying now to make some deals with us and so forth, but it's kind of a funny
thing.
It's kind of a bribery game, maybe.
When you first started this board a year ago, did you have any idea that something like
this could happen?
No, I didn't.
I'm good friends with a security man at Playboy magazine, his name is Neil Spots, and I talk
to Neil lots of times.
Neil has even been in my house, and he's looked at the material that I have and some of the
nostalgia behind Peter Desensi's material, and he's even taken some of that back to Playboy
magazine, because Peter provided Playboy with some of their stories, material, pictures,
and so forth.
We had some original Playboy material that was Peter's property here, and he was just
amazed, and he called the Playboy mansion from here, and so that's basically what we
had here.
Now, I'd like to ask you something.
First of all, let me remind our listeners that the program is off the hook.
We're on until 10 o'clock.
We're speaking with Robert Thomas, system operator of a computer system out in California
that was recently seized by the authorities for containing adult material on its hard
disks and modems and things like that.
You're welcome to give us a call and ask Robert any questions or make any comments that you
feel are pertinent to this.
The number is 212-279-3400.
We'll be going to the phones in just about five minutes, and we do have open lines.
Now, Robert, let me ask you, if you were somebody who was not running a bulletin board and you
heard about what happened in this particular case, do you think that might have...
Well, let me rephrase that.
If a year ago you had heard of somebody that this had happened to, would you have wanted
to start your bulletin board?
Do you think this is going to have a chilling effect on people?
I don't think it would have stopped me, no.
I mean, everybody knows the rights from wrong, and if you're right, go ahead and do it.
And if somebody says something, you must stand up for your rights as an American.
You have your constitutional rights, and everybody must stand up for them, and I would
do it.
Well, you have quite a bit of conviction then, and that's all fine and good, but do you think
most people would actually put themselves on the line, put their businesses on the line
simply to make a point about free speech?
I don't think most people would, no.
I think most people would be scared by it and not want to do it if it happened, if they
heard about a situation like that, but I've heard stories in the past, but I still did
it in the state of California, is the reason why that I did it.
I felt that I was safe doing something like this, being that we have adult bookstores
and XXX material that you can buy at liquor stores in California, so I felt I was safe.
Well, there was a report a couple of days ago, first of all, there hasn't been any kind
of press on this, I assume, no front page headlines out there?
No, there has not been any press out here about this at all.
Now, I had heard a couple of days ago it seemed as if you were going to get your equipment
back and then that fell through?
We were trying to get it back, demanding it back, that did not work.
They just haven't responded, or have they made promises that they haven't kept?
Well, it seems like everything changes day by day as far as the equipment goes.
We wanted to get the kids' computer back and they had to have time to go through it to
make sure there was no contraband on it.
The district attorney that was handling the case contacted my attorney and they asked
me to buy them a 400MB hard disk because the budget would not allow them to buy it.
There's budget problems in the city, the county.
Wait, they asked you to buy who a 400MB hard drive?
The district attorney in San Jose, it's a Ms. Cynthia Sevely, talked to my attorney
and suggested that I buy them a 400MB hard drive because governmental budget problems.
They could not buy that hard drive and it would take them weeks if not months to get
authorization to buy the hard drive to analyze my equipment.
In addition to coming into your home at 7 in the morning and taking over your computer
equipment, now they're asking that you buy them additional equipment so they can go through
all your stuff?
Is that the understanding here?
That's exactly what happened.
They asked for that hard drive and I lost in excess of $20,000, $25,000, $30,000 plus
of equipment.
They asked for the hard drive to analyze the equipment, which is absurd as far as I'm concerned.
We just keep seeming to move on to new ground with these cases.
Tell me, how is your family taking this?
They're doing very well.
I have a very strong family and they're very supportive of this.
Without them, I don't know what I would do.
How about the users of your computer system?
Have they been told what has happened?
Yes.
I've put an answering machine on my bulletin board line asking them to call another number.
The users have called and even potential users have called and they have nothing but support.
There's been phone calls from members that have been on the bulletin board for a matter
of hours before it went down.
They called and I offered to give their money back, send them a money order, whatever, a
check.
Keep it for your defense.
We support you 100%.
That's the type of response I'm getting from these people.
That's great.
Now, this might be a good time for you to give out any kind of information as far as
phone numbers, addresses that you'd like people to contact you.
And then we'll go to the phones.
Our phone number is 212-279-3400.
I think we have one or two lines open, so if people want to call in and speak with Robert
Thomas and ask him any questions about what happened or make any kind of comments, perhaps
offer some advice.
Now, do you have some numbers or addresses?
Yes.
If they want to contact myself or my wife, Carlene, any time, you can call 408-263-2441
and we'll be glad to support advice to any computer users out there that want to protect
their First Amendment rights.
And the address is 142 North Milpitas Boulevard, Milpitas, California, 95035.
And for us New Yorkers, how do you spell your town?
It's M as in Mary, I-L, P as in Paul, I-T-A-S.
Okay, we'll be giving out that number and address at the end of the program as well.
Program is off the hook.
This is Emanuel Goldstein speaking with Robert Thomas, a SISOP of yet another bulletin board
that has been seized.
This one, not a hacker bulletin board, this one a board that contained adult information.
You're welcome to give us a call, 212-279-3400.
We're going to go to the phones and see who's out there.
Good evening, you're on the air.
Hi.
I had a couple of questions I wanted to ask Mr. Thomas.
Are you there, Mr. Thomas?
Yes, I am.
Okay.
I guess one of the questions I had would be, did you allow uploading of files by users?
No, I didn't, no.
Okay.
Did you have on your board anything, any type of pornography such as, let's say, sadistic,
sadomasochism, whatever you want to call it, anything like that?
No, I did not.
Because here's what I was thinking about, possibly what was happening.
Now, with the credit cards, you said that what you did to check on the ages of the users,
you, I guess, give them a prompt to enter their age, and then you check to see whether
the age is below whatever your cutoff is, and then if they are, you disconnect.
What's to stop a kid from, you know, kids are pretty smart, and from entering, you know,
an age of 21, and if they know their parent's credit card information, which is usually
just the number and the expiration date, how would your check stop a child from getting
on?
How would it stop it?
Yeah.
In other words, let's put the case of a child who knew his parent's credit card, got into
the father's wallet or whatever, got the card number and the expiration date, and also,
when you prompted him for an age, put in an age like 22 or whatever, how would you be
able to determine that that was actually an adult and not a child?
I would determine that when I phone verified him.
Oh, you phone verified, you phoned him back?
Yeah.
Oh, I see.
Okay.
Well, that makes a lot of sense.
And that, I might also add, is a lot more than a magazine like Playboy would do.
A kid could do the exact same thing that you just mentioned.
I know.
Get somebody's credit card number, order a subscription for himself.
They don't shut down Playboy for that, nor should they.
Yeah, well, here's the other thing I wanted to mention about them coming in and grabbing
the equipment.
It sounds like they made a mistake on you, and, you know, they screwed up, but let's
assume that there was another case or that they didn't make a mistake.
The reason they have to grab the equipment is, first of all, you could theoretically
delete the files, you know, anything that was, you know, questionable, or reformat the
disk and then the evidence is gone.
And I think the reason they probably needed the hard disk or what they requested was they
wanted to dump, to give you back your machine, I think what they probably would want to do
would do make an image dump of the disk onto another disk so that they would have a copy
of the evidence.
And that's my guess as to why they requested a disk.
And you might be able to recommend to them that if you make a copy of the disk onto tape
and maybe they can give you copies, paper copies or Xerox of the records you need, you
might be able to get all your equipment back.
It's just a thought.
You know, you see, one of the major problems with the computer age is that there's so much
more information contained about us and by us in a much more constricted space so that
if somebody is investigating you and they want to look at your computer, well, they
see a whole lot more than what it is they were investigating in the first place.
And that's why we have to be really careful as far as how much freedom we give law
enforcement to come in and just copy our hard drives because I don't know what it is
that they might be looking for in a particular instance, but they're going to get so much
more.
That's a very good point.
Definitely.
It's never happened like that before.
You know, it has not happened before the age of computers.
Somebody has grabbed the machine, totally grabbed the machine, you mean?
Well, where they've grabbed your entire life.
I mean, I'm sure Mr. Thomas has all kinds of things on his various computer systems
and so does the rest of his family.
And now all of that is in the hands of the authorities, every single bit of it.
Yeah, well, that's because he's running a bulletin board and they're probably thinking
that they have to look in all places for evidence and they don't want to give him a chance
to, you know, delete the evidence.
I mean, that's how the police would think about it, I would guess.
Right, but their search and seizure with computers is so much more broad-based.
It covers everything and it's a very scary thing to think about.
Yeah.
Okay, thanks a lot.
Thanks for calling.
Our number is 212-279-3400.
Good evening, you're on the air.
Hi, um, great show.
I'd like to ask you a question about our different bulletin boards, okay?
Go ahead.
Okay, now, a lot of companies like, you know, AT&T
advertise that they have, you know, digital fiber optic networks.
But if that's the case, why do I still have to use a modem if I'm using U.S. print?
Long distance to, you know, to use a bulletin board?
Uh, because you still have to communicate with the computer.
It's not, uh, when they say they use digital connections, that's the type of, uh,
of circuitry they're using, but it's still going to, uh,
going to translate to, uh, you know, to voice.
It's not going to know that you're a computer.
You need a modem to, uh, to translate from the computer to the phone line.
Oh, well, what is ISDN, then?
Will ISDN eliminate modems?
Uh, well, I guess, uh, I guess it's going to eliminate a lot of things that we're used to.
Oh, I see.
But that's, that's something in the far future for us.
Okay, thank you.
All right.
212-279-3400, good evening.
Go ahead, you're on the air.
Hey, fine.
Um, I want to share something.
I received a book, and the book is called Terminal Compromises,
Computer Terrorism, when Privacy and Freedom are the Victims.
The novel, it's a novel, and it's by a fellow named Winn,
W-I-N-N, Schwartau.
Right, he was a guest on this show a number of weeks ago, actually.
Oh, just incredible book that he's written.
And I suggest that at least half of, uh,
this guy's problems can be, uh, dealt with in this book.
The book that he did, and I missed that show, I'm sorry.
It's, uh, published by the Interpac Press,
and the ISBN number is
0-962-870005.
And I suggest, it's copyrighted in 1991.
Well, could you, could you tell Mr. Thomas and myself
how, uh, how he can be helped through this book?
Um, I suspect, uh, the rationale
behind their coming in and taking, and how they do it and why they do it.
And more and more important, how they do it.
How they're able to, uh, find out about his activities other than reading about it,
and, uh, and in the newspaper or
looking at another bulletin board.
They probably have access to his, uh, his files in any case, before it even came in there.
And, uh, so.
I'm almost positive that's the case.
That they wanted the equipment.
They're going back to the primary, the primary reason, and that's that they want the equipment.
Well, either way, they're gonna get the equipment.
They've got his equipment now.
And they'll, they'll hold on till hell freezes over.
Uh, I believe, I believe that, uh, actually, because I did have a bulletin, uh,
in my bulletins, I list the, uh, system specifications.
Sure.
And, uh, one of the officers, uh, uh, Steve Swartzendruber,
that was sitting on my sofa, uh,
he was asking me the specs of my, of my system.
What's this and what's that? It was almost like he was reading, uh,
you know, from a copy of my bulletin that he captured of my stuff.
And I think, you know, I, I think that's right.
I think they wanted something. Um, none of the police,
I believe, were, were members. I don't believe they had
any files or, or any evidence of any criminal activity.
Sure. Obviously. Yeah. Uh, in any case,
that, this book by Bryce Wynn is just incredible.
And I, it's Terminal Compromise, Computer Terrorism, When Privacy and Freedom Are the Victims.
Okay. Well, thanks for, uh, thanks for letting us all know about that.
Okay. Our number is 212-279-3400.
We're speaking with Robert Thomas,
uh, system operator of a bulletin board out in California
that has been seized by the authorities, uh, along with a number of other
computer systems that, uh, were in his home.
Uh, they take anything else besides computers? They take your phone,
for instance? Uh, no, they did not take the phone.
Um, there's some, you know, lots of computer-related items they did not
take. I had two LaserJet printers, or I had one
in, uh, in the room, not connected to the board, but to one of the other,
the two 386s in the room. Uh,
did not take that. They did not take the, um, my backup
power supplies. Um, and they
did not take the, uh, my, uh, my boy's LaserJet
either, but they did take, you know, my wife's purses,
a couple of them up in the closet, um,
you know, the old empty purses when, you know, they have the old receipts and the
money-you-fish-out type purses they had up there.
Um, they took some, they listed, you know,
baby bottle nipples. They took those? Yes.
They took, um, some underwear.
Why do you think they would take, uh, someone's underwear? I have no idea.
This is, uh, turning into a very, uh, strange case here.
Uh, while it's nice that they left, uh, the LaserJet, I don't suppose it's doing you much good
without a computer attached to it. It's not doing much good at all,
and, you know, you know, like I, like I said before, by the time they get out
in the living room, we had videotapes in the, uh, in the end tables
for, uh, for the kids, you know, some Disney things and various other
tapes. They didn't, did not even look, you know, in the end tables.
Um, and they were told to seize all
videotapes. There's some, you know, some adult
oriented videotapes in a closet that they did not take.
Um, and in the garage
they took, you know, some of, some of Peter DeCense's, uh,
uh, photos and, uh, and film
in boxes, and I had a film chain set up
out there, 16mm to video, uh, video camera
Super VHS set up on that. They did not take
that film chain or the video camera, but they did pull
the tape out of the camera. Um,
and, you know, they
didn't take that, but they seized my 8mm camera that I bought for my, uh,
for my wife for Christmas, so, you know, lots, you know,
lots of things do not make sense to me. Why they did this
and they did not do that, I don't know.
Alright, let's, uh, go back to some listener phone calls again. Our number is 212-279-3400.
Whoops, my mistake. Good evening.
Hi. Yes, you're on the air, go ahead. Hi, yeah, you know,
what I'm wondering is, let's, what really is scary
to me is that he's in his house and the police come in
and they do all these things, and then they, um, they
prevent him from being with his family, with his
children, and my question is, what happens
if you just stand up and you go towards the room that your children
are in? What are they going to do? Good question. I tried
that. Okay. I did. I, I stood up and I
tried to move and... What happened? There's an officer right there and said, where are you going?
And I sat back down. Um, and I, I asked him
many times, how, how are my kids? Oh, they're fine, they're playing a game back there.
And that's... Right. I tried, I tried to
go back there. Yeah, you know, it just, it
scares the hell out of me. Yeah, it should, it should scare the hell out of all of us and it should
enrage all of us to see this kind of thing going on in 20th century North America, you know?
I mean, this is the kind of thing you, you read about in, uh, you know,
Eastern Europe, but, uh, you don't expect it to happen here. Well, folks, it's happening here.
Now what are we going to do about it? Really, it's, uh, I don't know, you know?
I don't know. I'm a musician and a
composer and, uh, you know, I've, uh, felt this
as an artist, but now to see just, uh, just normal
everyday working people, you know,
it's really scary. Uh-huh. Well, I mean, they'll get artists, you know, with
cutting off funding if they don't like the kind of music or the kind of art you produce.
Right. That's something you can, you can survive, but, uh, when they come into
your home and start seizing things because they don't like what it is you're saying or
the kind of people that you talk to, that's going to go a lot further and it's going to, uh,
really scare people that, uh, that otherwise
would be communicating in a very free and open manner, which is
I thought what this country was supposed to be all about. Oh, you know, and if, uh,
being in California, it might be wise to, to get hold of some artists and
musicians and have a concert about this. Okay.
Well, that's an idea. Okay, thanks. Thanks for calling. I don't know if, uh, having
concerts is always the answer, but, uh, you know, we can do some good, I suppose.
Tell me, uh, Robert, did they, did they talk to your kids or your wife at all?
Uh, a little bit. They, they did. Did they ask them any kinds
of, uh, questions? Uh,
no, not really. They didn't ask them too much. Just, you know, in their,
in their room, regarding the computer, you know,
when they turned it on, their computer, and showed
them there's just games in there and, you know, that was about it.
Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's about all the conversation that, uh,
that they had with them. Okay, let's go back to the
phones. Good evening. You're on the air. Hello, go ahead.
Yes, it's you. Go ahead. Oh, hi. Okay,
I shut my radio down. Okay. I, I may have missed a tiny little bit of this,
and I'd like to get some information. If I want to, um,
stir up, um, infective or trouble
with these people who did this atrocity, uh, can I
have a name or names and addresses to write to?
Uh, well, we're giving out Mr. Thomas's address
and, uh, and phone number. Um, it sounds like you want something
more like an elected official kind of a thing. Is that right? No, the cops, the people who
did this. Okay, which, uh, Robert, which police department was this? Where are they located?
Uh, it was the San Jose Police Department. Can you spell that?
San Jose, S-A-N-J-O-S-E. San Jose.
Yeah, and people? You want to give us some, uh, some names?
Um,
uh, yeah, the, the chief of police, okay, the, the San Jose Police Department,
uh, here's the address for the police department. Okay.
Is 201. 201.
West Mission Street. West Mission.
San Jose, California.
9-5-1-1-0.
1-1-0. 9-5-1-1-0. And the chief of police's name, uh,
his first name is Louis, L-O-U-I-S. Yeah.
And I'll spell the last name. I cannot pronounce it. It's, uh,
C-O-B as in boy. C-O-B.
A-R-R. A-R-R. U-V
as in Victor. I-A-Z.
Quite a name. Yep.
But he wasn't in, actually. He didn't come to your house, right?
No, no, he is, no, he is, uh,
he was issued a letter, uh, from my attorney
as well as some other, uh, you know, some other officials.
As the chief of police, he's answerable for whatever it is that they do.
And, and can you tell me the date on which this happened? Uh, Freedom Day.
It's January 20th, correct? Yes.
Dr. Freedom, or Dr. Martin Luther King. This year?
Yes, 1992. Wow. Okay.
Some freedom, huh? Yeah, and, uh, this has not really been, uh, publicized
all that much out there. This is really the first, uh, uh, press, I believe,
this is getting. Wow. So hopefully, uh, BAI listeners can, uh, can make
a difference here. Well, I will. I, I'm, uh, as the previous caller
was, is, I'm also a composer and a musician
and I've had my share of, uh, police
uh, brutality and it was brutal.
Uh-huh. And, uh, uh, I have, I've been known to make
waves. Well, good for you. And let's hope, uh, we all
create a giant wave and wave back at the authorities. Yeah.
I, I'm sorry that, that, uh, it's Robert Thomas, right? Right.
Yeah, that, that he had to experience this in his family and I hope that the kids
you know, aren't shot to pieces by it, blown
away by, by what's going on.
Okay, well, I'm sure your support will, uh, will make a big difference. Thanks for calling.
212-279-3400. Let's see how many calls we can get in the next, uh,
five or six minutes. Good evening.
Yes, hi, Emanuel? Yes, go ahead. Yeah, I just, even though it's
probably not solicited, I really think the reason
Soiled Underwear were seized is these people
are gonna allege he threw his bulletin board
was some cockamamie
adult erotica pitch was selling
them through the mail using the bulletin board as the, uh, sales base.
Well, what do you think of that, Robert? And I just, it infuriates
me that, you know, right now, he is totally
I mean, you mentioned everything is sealed off. I mean, like
any kind of a case can be cooked up because
it's all electronic. I mean, the same way you can electronically change
you know, a picture. I mean, they can say
things are in a bulletin board that aren't in a bulletin board. I mean, it boggles your mind.
I mean, right now, there's no rules of evidence anymore.
I mean, it's electronic. I mean, but it just seems
that would be the only reason for taking those items. I mean, physical evidence.
This, your honor, is what he's been pitching he sells through the mail.
And we have these samples that so-and-so did get by using his bulletin board.
But anyway, I just want to throw that out. The other thing is
BAI does now have a cutoff when the phone rings and rings.
It's happened to me several times on Sunday. Where are you calling from? Uh, New Jersey.
Well, you know, it's not BAI. It's probably AT&T. Is that the company
you're using? I have no idea. It's Ridgewood, New Jersey. Well,
do you know what your long-distance company is? I guess. Well, I thought that would be
an internal deal. No. What you should do is call. It's a toll-free number.
Call 700-555-4141 and
your long-distance company will identify itself. If it's AT&T,
try using MCI or Sprint next time and see if they cut you off if they don't
use them from now on. All right. Thank you very much. But again, just getting back to that.
Again, I don't want to turn it into a perverted call, but in an electronic
age, it seems to me, how can this gentleman
defend himself when what we're talking about is
cyberspace or whatever? And what happens if they do that? If they allege
that, you see, your honor, in these plastic bags, these soiled underwear,
undergarments, this gentleman was selling them? Oh, you can change anything
on a computer. You can change the dates. You can do all kinds of things. I just hope you're not giving
them ideas. It turns into a matter of trust. Well, good luck
anyway. Bye-bye. Thanks for calling. Any comments on that,
Robert? The underwear that were
seized were not soiled. They were basically new
that were taken. They were not used
material. And
I agree with them that they could probably do something, or
once they have your equipment, they could probably
put whatever they want into that equipment
with the date changes and so forth. And
what could you say?
You know, it might be a good idea for people to
keep backup hard drives locked up in another location
because in your particular case, if you had
everything, every bit of data that was seized stored away in a vault
someplace, at least you would have access to it. At least if they did
try tampering with data, you could say, well, look, here's clear
evidence that this data has been tampered with. My copy doesn't say this. And also
if you were able to round up the equipment, you might actually be able to get back into business.
It's sad to think that we have to take those extremes
not against failure of a computer, but against our own government.
But apparently the day has arrived where we have to do that.
I think we do, yeah. I did have backup tapes.
99% of everything was backed up, although
they took the backup tapes, too. Yeah, that's the disadvantage of keeping the backups
in the same location as the... Right. But, you know, I was thinking, too,
if I went out and had to purchase more equipment after them taking
$100,000 worth of it, you know, restoring
all the data, and then have them come back in, what's...
You know. Uh-huh. You think they'd come right back and just take that again?
What do you do? Yeah. I mean, you don't know, you know,
you don't know what they're up to. Okay, let's take another
phone call. Good evening. Yes, hi, good
evening. This is an incredible show. I have a couple
questions and a comment also. I'd like to hear something
about whether he has an attorney and how his attorney has responded
and also what efforts he has made to get this
into the mainstream media, the
underground media, and international media. My comment is
that as an African-American, I don't wish to sound
cynical, but we are so used to seeing government
abridgment of our rights, such as in COINTELPRO. We have
a political prisoner case coming up in
Darula Ben-Mohad. We see how the COINTELPRO
well, I mentioned COINTELPRO. We see how the court system
deals with a second or a double standard of justice. I wish
the brother a lot of luck, but this is something that
we are used to daily in our community in terms of abridgment
of First Amendment and constitutional rights. And I'll listen to his
answers regarding the questions. Thank you for the show. Thanks for calling.
Very good point, because lots of people do live with this kind of thing all
the time. If there's any good to come out of this, it's that a wider range of
people are now seeing how abuses occur.
Any comments on that? I agree
with that.
In my opinion, the U.S. does not
take it seriously enough.
The racial issues,
the First Amendment,
you name it. The people do not stand up
enough, I think, for their rights nowadays.
We are all protected.
Whether you're yellow, you're white,
or black or whatever, we're all the same.
We're all in one. We should all
stand up for each other. And we have these rights. We have the
constitutional rights. And we should all
protect one another and stand up for all these rights.
I think you've expressed that very well, and it's the point that I try to drive
home here when I bring up cases of computer hackers being
abused by the authorities or not being understood by the authorities,
because we do have this thread. And whether it's somebody running an adult
bulletin board, somebody who is exploring computer systems,
or somebody who is being abused by the authorities in their
daily life simply because of the color of their skin,
we all have this common thread. We all have to stick together, stand up for each
other, and realize where the true threats are coming from.
Now, Robert, we are out of time, so I want to give you an opportunity
to give out those numbers and addresses one more time.
Again, this is Robert Thomas, system operator of a computer bulletin board
system out in California that was
containing adult information, and apparently the authorities
took exception to that, used that as an excuse to raid his home
with all computer equipment, shut down his other businesses,
take his kid's computer that was used for school work.
So if people want to contact him or help out in any way, Robert will now give you the number and address.
Okay, the phone number you can contact
me now. I'll be glad to talk to anybody.
Area code 408-263-2441.
If you want to write me,
I can gladly send you information.
The address is 142 North Milpitas
Boulevard. It's MIL-P-I-T-A-S
Boulevard, Milpitas, California
95035.
Okay, Robert, we wish you the best of luck. We'll certainly be
keeping track of your case and updating listeners
as things change. Good luck to you. Thank you very much.
Okay, and that's going to just about do it for Off the Hook tonight.
We won't be back again next week, but we will
be back the week after that. So until then,
have yourselves a technically aware existence.
Stay tuned for the Personal Computer Show.
It couldn't get much worse. But if they could, they would.
Bum diddly bum for the best, expect the worst.
I hope that's understood. Bum diddly bum!