...Brooklyn Navy Yard incinerator, and of course contributes to the greenhouse effect.
So in other words, incineration per se may be safe if you only look at the ash.
The problem is that enormous quantities of junk are released into the air, most of which
are toxic and will have long-term effects on the ozone layer, on the greenhouse effect,
and of course on the health and safety of our children, because lead, of course, attacks
children in a very ferocious way.
Well, unfortunately, that's all we have left on exploration.
This is Dr. Michio Kaku, professor of nuclear physics at the Graduate Center of the City
University of New York.
Join us every Wednesday evening from 8 o'clock to 9 o'clock as we explore the world of science,
the questions of war and peace, and the environment.
Good evening.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Susan Sontag on The Way We Live Now in the Age of AIDS.
Carlos Fuentes on Revolution and Crisis in Latin America.
Alice Walker on Worshiping Nature.
Kurt Vonnegut on the Persian Gulf War.
You'll find the best minds of our generation on a movable feast.
Hi, this is Tom Vitale inviting you to join me for the ideas and words of our finest American
poets and fiction writers on a movable feast, Friday evenings at 8.30, here on WBAI 99.5 FM in New York.
Sunday mornings are special on WBAI.
Tune in at 7 a.m. for Through the Opera Glass, two and a half hours of the most adventurous
opera show on radio.
Tune in at 9.30 here of a Sunday morning, early music with literate, loving commentary
from Chris Wendt.
So start the week right with Through the Opera Glass from 7 to 9.30 a.m. and Chris Wendt's
Here of a Sunday Morning from 9.30 to 11.30.
Some of the best music in New York on listener-sponsored WBAI New York 99.5 FM.
And it's 9 o'clock.
You're listening to WBAI New York.
Time now for Off the Hook.
I hope that's understood.
One, two, three, go!
And a very good evening to one and all.
Welcome to Off the Hook, the program about technology from what you might call a human
perspective, something that a lot of us tend to forget about these days.
Well, not those of us who listen to this program, not those of us who listen to this radio station
because we all have humanity in mind in almost everything we do, including every time we
use the telephone, every time we use a computer, or every time a computer uses us.
Well, we're going to be talking about quite a bit of that and, of course, as usual, inviting
listener feedback.
And some of that listener feedback came in the form of a letter, rather a nice letter,
some good news.
We invite you to send in your good news or your bad news.
We'll give the address a little bit later on.
This good news comes from Connecticut in the form of a newsletter for Southern New England
Telephone, SNET News they call it, a telecommunications newsletter for Connecticut residents.
And there is one sentence in this newsletter which you might not think is significant unless
you listen to this program.
That sentence is, in addition, touch-tone service will be provided with your basic exchange
service at no additional charge.
It doesn't sound like much, but it represents the culmination of a fight we've been engaged
in for years and years and years where phone companies charge extra to use touch-tones,
most bizarre thing ever if you understand anything about the way the phone company works.
It doesn't cost them anything extra to use touch-tones because, well, first of all, you're
the one making the touch-tones, they don't create them, they just simply process them
and it actually saves them money.
Yet they've been able for years to get away with charging extra for them.
One by one, though, starting out in California, Washington State, it's been gradually disappearing
that extra charge for something that doesn't really exist.
Our thanks to the listener in New Canaan, Connecticut who sent that in.
Couple of weird charges, though, that did show up in this newsletter.
For instance, a non-listed number costs $1, which is an increase from 57 cents.
A non-listed number costs $1.
A non-published number costs $3.05.
Now, you might ask yourself, what is the difference between a non-listed number and a non-published
number?
A little secret here, a non-published number is not listed in the directory or in information,
whereas a non-listed number is printed in the directory but not listed with information.
Kind of a weird distinction there.
But the main point of this is, where else do you know where you have to pay money not
to be listed someplace?
Again, it's something that we've grown used to, and so we allow it.
But to pay the phone company money for not listing you is one of the most absurd charges
I've ever heard.
What we suggest for people to do to get around that is simply list your name as somebody
else.
Come up with a fake name, you're allowed to do that.
If you do that, you'll get a listing, and you won't be charged, and nobody will be able
to find you.
And whenever you get one of those calls where they ask for Bozo the Clown or whatever it
is that you decided to list your name as, you'll know that this is somebody that's calling
you because they saw your name in the phone book and for no other reason.
So you can tell them to drop dead and various other variations on that particular theme.
Okay, enough said about that.
We have some serious business to get to.
Some other good news, too.
This is, for those of you that were listening two weeks ago, we spoke with Robert Thomas
who operated a computer bulletin board out in California called Amateur Action.
It was an adult-oriented bulletin board, had some pictures, and he was raided by the police.
His entire family was subjected to the raid for several hours, weren't allowed to make
phone calls or move or little things like that.
He had all of his computer systems confiscated.
He was basically put out of business for the other businesses that he ran from his
home.
His children had their computer taken, all because somebody suspected him of doing something
with one of these alleged pornographic pictures.
It seemed like a very clear incursion in free speech.
And one particular thing that was brought out in the program a couple of weeks ago,
which I understood led to a lot of outraged listener phone calls to the San Jose Police
Department.
They had requested that he actually buy them a 300 meg hard drive so that they could go
through his data quicker, and thus get his material back quicker.
But nothing short of blackmail, if you ask me.
Anyway, I do understand as of yesterday, I've heard this.
I've not heard it firsthand, but I have heard it from someone who is fairly reliable that
he has gotten his equipment back.
And I'm sure in no small part due to outraged voices of BAI listeners who called out there,
as well as other people that stood up for him and stood up for the First Amendment.
So congratulations to everybody that played a part in that.
Now, something else that's happening in the computer world that's not so good is something
called the Michelangelo virus.
It's a rather scary bit of work and a very ominous bit of code that has implanted itself
in computers all across the globe and is scheduled to detonate on March 6th, 1992.
If you have a computer, it may be sitting there right now, just waiting for March 6th
to arrive.
You never know.
But it's not necessary to fret or even panic, at least not more so than usual.
What follows is an alert posted on the internet.
For anybody who might be concerned with Michelangelo, this is what you need to know.
First of all, this only affects people with MS-DOS computers.
Those of you with Macintoshes, Amigas, you're spared this time.
From all reports, this destructive virus is spreading worldwide very rapidly.
Unlike the Data Crime Fizzle in 1989, in fact, that was scheduled to go off on October 13th,
1989, and was widely heralded in the media, but nothing ever came of it.
This one will be wildly and widely heralded in the media, and it's likely that a lot more
will happen, because this has been popping up already.
But unlike the Data Crime Fizzle in 1989, which contained similar destructive capability
but never spread, the Michelangelo appears to have become common in just 10 months following
detection.
I have encountered three cases locally in just the last few weeks.
Three factors make this virus particularly dangerous.
The virus uses similar techniques as the stoned virus, which, first identified in early 1988,
still remains the most common virus currently reported.
And since the virus infects only the master boot record on hard disks and the boot record
on floppy disks, viral detection techniques that rely on alteration of DOS executable
files will not detect the virus.
Michelangelo was first discovered in Europe.
This is the virus, not the person.
First discovered in Europe in, although he was probably first discovered in Europe too,
mid-1991.
Consequently, many virus scanners in use today will not pick up the virus unless more recent
updates have been obtained.
Unlike the stoned and Jerusalem viruses, which are more annoying than dangerous, the Michelangelo
virus will, on its trigger date of March 6, attempt to overwrite vital areas of the hard
disk, rendering it unreadable by DOS disk operating system.
Since the FATs, which are the file allocation tables, may be damaged, unless you keep backups,
recovery is going to be very difficult and will probably require somebody who is able
to rebuild a corrupt file allocation table, which is a very time-consuming process.
We're also told that, fortunately, or maybe to confuse people even further, the Michelangelo
virus is also very easy to detect.
When resident in a PC, the CHKDSK program will return a total bytes memory value 2,048
bytes lower than normal.
What that means, basically, is if you type CHKDSK on your computer, CHKDSK, it'll give
you all this data as far as how much disk space you have, how much memory you have.
Now, if, say, it said something like, ordinarily, a PC that has 648K will return a number of
655,360 total bytes memory, well, instead of giving you the 655,360, it will give you
653,312, which is 2,048 bytes lower.
Simple, huh?
No problem.
Okay, housewives all over America are checking this to make sure that their memory is what
it should be.
Now, while a low value will not necessarily mean that Michelangelo or any other virus
is present, the PC should be examined by someone familiar with viral activity to determine
the reason.
Basically, what we have here, folks, is massive panic.
People all over the place are scared, as well they should be, because this kind of a thing
can certainly cause a lot of mess.
Now, you won't be affected if you've done what you should have done all along, keeping
backups, both floppy backups and also printout backups, because they're both important.
I know it's a real pain, but when something like this happens, and this is only one that
we know about, imagine one coming along that we don't know anything about that hits by
surprise.
Well, at least when you keep backups, you can always go to them, whereas if you don't
keep backups come March 6th, you may have nothing on your computer, nothing worth salvageable.
Anyway, we have some phone numbers that you can call to get a free program, and I know
what people think about this, because I have the same feelings myself.
What better way to get people to download programs under the guise of protecting your
system against a virus?
You could very well download a virus.
It is possible, but the number of people calling up this number and getting this particular
program is such that I don't think that's a worry here.
The CVIA antiviral BBS has a free virus scan and eradication program.
You can reach them, they're in San Jose, California, area code 408-988-4004, 408-988-4004, and just
download whatever program is apparently meant for this kind of a thing.
Here's something rather scary.
Between December 10th and December 27th, Leading Edge shipped about 6,000 DOS clones to dealers.
For those of you who don't have computers, it's basically a PC compatible, IBM PC compatible.
It shipped about 6,000 of those to dealers, and they already had the Michelangelo virus
on their drives.
A former employee of mine, now working for himself, reports that about half the sites
he's visited recently to work on hardware problems have had one or more PCs contaminated
with the virus.
It is lethal to data.
Backups which contain the virus can also trigger data loss after March 6th, when the backups
are restored or reopened.
And this person who posted this on The Well in California made the comment, I'm sure glad
I use a Macintosh.
And he got a response, being glad you own a Macintosh because of a PC virus is like
living in hurricane country and being glad you don't live in California with all of its
earthquakes.
Apart from all that, there's a program called Clean version 84 and all the versions on up.
I believe they're up to 86 now, Clean version 86.
The program is referred to as a nasty little bugger.
It infects the boot sector of floppy boot sector and partition table of hard drive and
loads itself into RAM to infect any diskette accessed in a bootable floppy drive.
And anybody that has had that happen to them knows that that's, that's, you know, a world
full of hurt there, to coin a phrase.
And turning on your computer one day and because, because you didn't take a precaution,
you lose everything.
And we're not talking about something that is easy to get back.
We're not talking about something that Norton Utilities can just immediately restore.
We're talking about serious damage here.
This person deliberately reinfected one of, one of his test systems with the Michelangelo
virus.
He says it only seems to react to March 6, 1992, not to dates after that.
When you boot and the date is March 6, 1992, the hard drive access light goes on and stays
on but the screen stays blank.
I reset the system and booted from a floppy.
The partition table was gone.
Norton Utilities was unable to recover the volume.
Nasty bit of work.
Again, here's two phone numbers for people that want to download anti-Michelangelo virus
programs.
One for 2400 baud, one for 9600 baud.
The 2400 baud number, and I imagine it will support 1200 as well, is 408-973-9598.
Another number for 9600 baud is 408-973-9834.
We're going to be doing a special program on this next week, I believe, so stay tuned
to BAI for all the information that comes your way concerning the latest in viruses
and other nasty business.
Now, I just want to correct one thing, and you'll see this in all kinds of news items
in weeks ahead.
I've already heard it on the radio a couple of times on WCBS, I believe, where they say
that computer viruses are things that are planted by computer hackers, and it makes
you want to shout out a very nasty word because that is not true at all.
Computer hackers do not do destructive things like this.
A computer hacker will certainly be interested in how it works, and will be interested in
experimenting with it, but no computer hacker in their right mind would unleash something
like this onto the public, or anybody else for that matter.
So I think computer hackers will probably be the salvation here, the people that can
figure it out and figure out how to get around it quickly and decisively.
Well, speaking of computer hackers, one of the most notorious hacker trials of all time
was, of course, U.S. v. Craig Neidorf back in 1990.
Craig Neidorf was accused of printing a document that contained proprietary Bellcore information
on the emergency 911 system.
Basically I'll tell you what it was that was determined to have happened, and then I'll
tell you how it was distorted by the media.
He printed a document that turned out to be worth something like $14.
In other words, you could get a copy of your very own copy of this document for $14 by
ordering it from Bellcore.
However, Bellcore said that it was worth $81,000 because they figured in the cost of the computer
system they used to type it on, they figured in the cost of all the people that they hired
to type it, and everything else, including labor costs for giving birth to the people
that eventually developed this particular bit of nonsense.
What that wound up, besides being a nice hearty laugh for all of us as far as how ridiculous
things really are, Craig Neidorf actually had to stand up for that and go on trial and
go into quite a bit of debt as a result of that.
We talked to him about a year and a half ago, and he is still around.
He's busy doing all kinds of things, preparing for law school, but one thing that has not
gone away is the amazing debt that he still has to pay for proving that he was innocent.
Craig are you with us?
Yeah, I'm here.
Okay, Craig is down there in D.C. where you now work for the Electronic Frontier Foundation.
Craig, how much of your debt is still remaining, and how come it's still there?
Describe how this all developed.
Well, Manuel, a lot of people, when I tell them it's only about $50,000 left now, think
that, wow, you must be doing a great job getting it paid off quickly because it started well
over $100,000.
What they don't know is that most of what's been paid off was a very large sort of deposit.
Like when you buy a car, you need to put money down first, and then you sort of pay off the
rest.
And that was made up essentially of everything that we'd saved up in our life savings kind
of thing for college and personal savings.
So the rest of it, sort of a monthly plan kind of thing, little by little.
Now, at this rate, how long is it going to take?
Well, I figure maybe by the year 2000, we might be sitting okay.
That's really unbelievable.
Something that surprised me and really, it got me kind of upset, you didn't get a very
strong response.
We had pleas to help Craig pay these legal costs here on BAI as well as in The Village
Voice, 2600, on the intranet.
How much did that eventually yield you?
I don't have the exact numbers in front of me, but I believe that if you put it all together,
it still was somewhere around maybe 800 or possibly $900.
Well, I mean, that's pretty pathetic because we have a situation here where somebody, I
mean, you could have accepted a plea bargain from the beginning and paid some kind of a
fine, perhaps served a bit of time in jail or something for something you didn't do,
but instead you chose to stand up and say, this is not right, not only for your own sake,
but for everybody involved in the computer world.
Had you, tell me something, Craig, what do you think would have happened had you been
found guilty?
What would the effect have been on the rest of us?
I mean, had I taken a deal or something?
Yeah, or eventually been found guilty in a trial or anything like that, just being found
guilty of something.
What would that have done?
I think it would have been a serious clamp down on all sorts of publications of any kind
of questionable nature, you know, that the government may not agree with, different political
views, something that's not, you know, generally seen at every newsstand would probably begin
to disappear if it has any kind of controversial content, starting with other electronic magazines
that were circulating and possibly moving into even publications like 2600.
Now, you basically had an electronic publication, you published a bit of information about the
911 system, and Belcourt did not like that being published.
But, you know, it's a large chain of events actually led to my getting indicted, and a
lot of people aren't really aware.
It was sort of a combination of things.
There was some different computer intrusions going on in Georgia with Bell South Computers
by some totally unrelated to anything that I was doing, but it caused them to start really
looking at their security down there and taking a closer look at that, which is why they called
in some of the people from Belcourt, which is like their research division.
Most people know Belcourt is actually jointly owned by the seven regional Bell operating
companies.
So it was these people at Belcourt that came in and, you know, were the expert witnesses
at my trial who tried to say, talk about all the bad things that these guys were doing
down in Georgia, and somehow attempted to try and link me to it at my case.
But at the same time you had the Morris trial going on, you had the Morris conviction, you
had the Joel Nett, you know, seizure, the guy at Joel Nett who found the file and sent
it over to someone at AT&T security.
It's just a whole massive different combination of events that led to, you know, you had this
prosecutor who had successfully convicted Shadowhawk back in 1989 for getting into an
AT&T computer.
And sent him to jail, too.
That's right.
He was a...
A lot of people don't know this, that Robert Morris is given the distinction of being the
first person to be convicted under the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act, but that's actually incorrect.
He was the first person to be convicted in a jury trial.
Shadowhawk the year before was convicted in a judge trial because he was a minor.
So because he was a minor, the case is not something you can really cite to and you can't
look it up.
Uh-huh.
But he...
Minor or not, he still served time in prison for basically reading a file on a computer
system.
About 10 months.
And that was for one count of the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act.
But the thing is, you published a newsletter.
You didn't even access anything.
What you did was you printed information and they tried to send you away for printing information,
much like, say, the Pentagon Papers or something like that.
Right.
It's, you know, it's your standard...
I mean, part...
You have to wonder if, say, Bell South, for example, knowing full well that this document
didn't have any real value to it, maybe for insurance purposes, to try and get money or
something from an insurance company to reimburse them, was trying to boost the price to this...
It was actually like they were claiming $79,449.
You know, that's one possibility of why they did it.
A key document that never surfaced in my trial, despite all the emotions for discovery, listed
the itemized breakdown of the value of the 9-1-1 document.
They actually included the price of a mainframe computer system, like some $50,000 computer
that the document was sitting on, as part of the value of the document.
They included $6,000 as the price of a laser printer that this document could have been
printed on.
They included the price, $500, for the word processing software that they used to write
the document, as well as all the type of costs you discussed earlier.
I mean, how can they justify that this piece of software, this word processor, now has
no value, that they've written one document with it?
How can they say that this mainframe computer, where they stored this document, and thousands
of others, because one document has been taken from it, the full value of a mainframe computer
is now attributed to one document.
And you say, document taken from it, it wasn't even taken from it, it was simply read.
The information was read.
Yes.
Now, I'm curious, you say, how can they justify it, I'm curious, how can they get away with
it?
Aren't they breaking some kind of law when they blatantly lie like that?
In my opinion, the government violated the law, in this case, several times, by not disclosing
such a document, which they obviously had, knowing full well that there's a rule in federal
law that says that the government has to turn over any evidence to a defendant that could
be used to their defense, some kind of favorable evidence rule.
But the prosecution never made this available to us.
In fact, the document only came out as part of a discovery motion later filed by the Electronic
Frontier Foundation in the Steve Jackson games lawsuit on the Secret Service.
Now what they're trying to do, the government is trying to say, in that case, is trying
to blame it all on Bell South, saying, oh, well, we just, you know, this is what they
told us something was worth, so, you know, we took them at their word.
Now, I still hold them responsible.
They have an obligation to verify that, you know, when they're told something, that it's
correct.
And the person or the organization telling them is the supposed victim.
Most amazing story there.
Now, where do you stand right now after all of this, more than a year after it ended?
What is your situation?
Are you getting ready to go to law school, I understand?
Right.
Well, I have several applications out to different schools around the country, several public
state schools and a few private schools.
And I'm still waiting.
I don't expect to hear from anyone until, say, April.
It's kind of a pipe dream that I even bothered to apply to some of the private schools because
given my current situation, even with some of the maximum loan amounts, I'm not sure
that I have a chance of really affording it.
And because of my other debts, I'm not sure what kind of a candidate I am to even receive
loans because, you know, people worry about default and things like that.
Seeing the way the legal system works, wouldn't you be kind of turned off by it?
Well, it's the only way to, you know, to get to fight back really is to sort of, you know,
get involved with that system and then try to work from the inside to make some changes
that are necessary.
Uh-huh.
Well, OK, I'd like to appeal to people.
First of all, anybody that needs to call up and ask Craig some questions can do so now.
Our phone number is 212-279-3400.
We've got a couple of open lines if people have questions or comments.
But most importantly, for the sake of freedom of speech, for the sake of computer freedom
in the future, we need to help Craig out as far as paying off this massive debt.
I mean, imagine what would have happened had he been found guilty.
Instead, he was not found guilty, yet he still has tens of thousands of dollars worth of debt.
Every little bit helps.
If every BAI listener, for instance, sent only $10 or something, it would amount to
a massive amount that would practically eradicate the debt itself.
Now, we have two options for people that want to contribute.
One is to send a check to Craig's lawyer, and the other is to send a check through 2600,
which we'll forward directly to Craig.
Craig, supposing you give out your information first, and we'll give out the other information.
Right.
Well, if people would rather just send it directly to my attorney, it should be sent
to Sheldon Zenner, Z-E-N-N-E-R, at the law firm of Katten, Muchen, and Zavis, and that's
spelled K-A-T-T-E-N-M-U-C-H-I-N, and Zavis, Z-A-V-I-S.
They're at 525 West Monroe Street, Suite 1600, in Chicago, Illinois, 60606.
But for people who are interested in sending a check or something like that, it should
be made out to the law firm with something in the memo section about my name or something
like that, or an enclosed letter, just because otherwise it sort of gets thrown in with the
general assortment of checks that they receive, and it'll never get credited to the right
place.
Okay.
People that want to just send it through the magazine, they can send anything, actually,
including letters, checks, whatever, to Craig, and we'll forward it directly to him unopened,
and that will be to the Neidorf Defense Fund, and that's spelled N-E-I-D-O-R-F, and that's
Care of 2600 Magazine, PO Box 99, Middle Island, New York, 11953.
And if you want to pass along a message, you can leave that message at the office, 516-751-2600,
and if you're on the Internet, you can reach, well, you can send messages through 2600 at
well.sf, as in San Francisco, .ca, as in California, .us, as in United States.
And Craig, I'm not sure, do you have any Internet addresses you want to give out?
Right.
Well, I can be reached also at that same site as knight, at well.sf.ca.us.
And that's knight, spelled K-N-I-G-H-T.
Okay.
Now we're opening up our phone lines, 212-279-3400.
The program is off the hook.
This is Emmanuel Goldstein.
We're here until 10 o'clock, talking to Craig Neidorf, who went through quite an ordeal
almost two years ago, but the effects are still with him.
212-279-3400.
Good evening.
You're on the air.
Hello.
Go ahead.
Yeah.
Actually, it was...
I had called earlier.
Can I ask you a question about AT&T and the likes, and not a question directly directed
at Craig?
All right.
We'll make it quick.
I was told by experts I saw on TV that other competitors of AT&T have access to my phone
records.
Well, I mean, there's a database, and people...
Your phone number basically links to your name, address, and things like that.
I don't know if phone bills are shared between the phone company.
I doubt that very much, because I know even AT&T cannot look at your local calling records,
and your local company cannot look at your AT&T calling records, but there is a lot of
information that is shared, namely where you live, your Social Security number, bank records,
things like that.
Not my calling patterns or where I call.
Well, it's possible your calling patterns might be shared, although I can't imagine
why competing companies would share such information, but not the phone numbers themselves.
Okay.
Thank you.
Okay.
212-279-3400.
I ask that people try to talk about the subject at hand tonight, because this is a very important
subject and something that we want to make some progress on.
Good evening.
Yes.
Emmanuel?
Yes.
Go ahead.
All right.
Two simple questions.
One would be, where did you get the name Michelangelo?
And two, how about changing the date on the computer?
If you changed it to, let's say, 1990 and let it go on, I guess that would be simple,
but if you changed it back to 1992 after March 6th, would that work?
Well, it's rumored that the virus will always react on March 6th, whether it's 1992, 93,
et cetera.
So if you're willing to do that every single year without forgetting, it might be worth
it, but it'd probably be a lot easier to just get a program that will search for it and
get rid of it.
All right.
And how about the name?
The name is because Michelangelo's birthday is March 6th, and that's the day it's going
to blow up.
Oh.
All right.
Thank you.
Thanks for calling.
212-279-3400 is our telephone number, and we've got Craig Neidorf on the phone in Washington,
D.C.
Good evening.
You're on the air.
Hi.
I wanted to just ask, Craig, from what I understand, from what I heard on the show, you were in
debt quite a sum, $50,000 or so.
Is that right?
Well, after all was said and done with just the legal fees alone, it came to around $108,000.
I see.
Well, my question is, and this is probably not something that the attorney that you owe
the money to is going to recommend, but have you considered filing for bankruptcy?
Well, you know, people have mentioned that option before, but like I said, I'm trying
to get loans for things like law school and so forth, and that would kind of rule me out
of potential.
And, I don't know, it's just something that, at this age, I'm not sure would be necessarily
a great idea.
Well, what's the total that you owe now, $50,000?
I don't know the exact figure.
It's, you know, like $48,000 or $51,000 or something like that.
Well, that sounds like an awful big sum of money, and that's why they have bankruptcy
laws, you know, to give people a chance to clean the slate, so to speak, and start over.
Bankruptcy law, as I understand it, essentially means that they put you on a budget, and then
you have to pay a certain amount out of your salary or so forth to your creditors, which
is essentially what we're doing anyway.
Well, Craig, I'm sure what a lot of people probably are curious about, since the government
brought you up on charges, those charges were proven to be unfounded, shouldn't they
be held accountable?
Is there some kind of a law that would apply to this?
Well, the law that applies, unfortunately, applies in the other direction.
It's called sovereign immunity, which essentially protects the government from being sued unless
they allow themselves to be sued.
There are some acts that Congress has passed that let you get around that, such as, like,
some of the acts that the Electronic Frontier Foundation is using right now in the Steve
Jackson case in Texas.
But that's what's going on down there, where they filed almost a year ago, and it's still,
you know, immediately the government responded by a motion to dismiss, the foundation responded
with a motion countering that, why they should not dismiss, and, you know, you can just wait
for four or five years to see one of these cases get to trial.
Could I just ask you one question?
I just had a curiosity, and maybe you don't want to answer it.
How much per hour was your lawyer billing?
What was his hourly rate?
The law firm that he works for bills his time at roughly $210 an hour.
That's pretty steep, and that is probably a lot less than what you'd even pay in New York City.
I just don't have a lot of sympathy for paying those kind of legal fees.
I mean, if there's an alternative, and I think bankruptcy might be, but anyway, it's up to you.
Take care.
Okay, thanks for calling.
You know, I feel the same way towards health care and things like that.
I think a lot of this should be either a lot lower cost or taken care of in some way by the
government since we pay so much in taxes in the first place.
But to look upon an option like bankruptcy at, how old are you, Craig?
Twenty-two.
Twenty-two.
It's just, as you say, could be something that scars you for the rest of your life.
And what I just hope is that this whole ordeal can get behind you in some way or another.
And since Craig was not fighting this battle for himself, he was fighting it really for all of us,
both in the computer world and in the freedom of speech world.
I think BAI listeners can appreciate that.
Had he simply acquiesced and allowed himself to be prosecuted and convicted of something like publishing a document,
that would be a victory, a victory for the people that want to chip away at the First Amendment.
And when you win a victory like that, you simply go for another chip off the First Amendment.
It would have gotten worse.
And because we were able to win this particular fight, we were able to push those people back a little bit further,
stave them off for a little longer.
I think Craig deserves some credit for sticking with it.
I know a lot of people would not have stuck with it.
They would have gone for a plea bargain.
And yeah, he's got to pay the economic price for that.
And that's why I hope that we can help him out here.
212-279-3400 is our telephone number.
Anybody wants to make a comment or ask Craig any questions, we're on until 10 o'clock.
And we do have some open phone lines, so give us a call now.
Good evening. You're on the air.
I have actually a question, one about the case and the other about the virus that you're talking about.
But my first suggestion about this man's case is I'm just wondering if it might be possible for a not-for-profit organization involved in communication to assume the debt and then have the law firm forgive the debt and take it as a tax deduction.
That's something that you might think about, you know, maybe because clearly 210-an-hour is pretty exorbitant.
They might be willing to accept having gotten what they've gotten and getting a tax write-off on the rest.
That's an idea.
You know, a creative idea like that might actually be something that's workable.
But I don't really know the realistics of that.
Craig, perhaps you have an idea?
Well, I wish there was a public interest organization, not-for-profit, that would come forward and do that.
But I haven't seen any interest from any of the organizations that people might be expecting to.
The other question I have is about this virus.
You were saying that if you know the amount of bytes in your disk and you do a check disk and if the number's 2,048 bytes less, then you know that Michelangelo is in there, right?
Well, you can suspect it's in there.
You can't know for sure.
If you know the exact amount, other than looking at the information that came with the system, is there any formula you can use to know the exact amount?
Well, it depends.
Do you have a PC with 640k in RAM?
I think I have 1,000 in RAM.
1,000, okay.
Then the number is going to be a little bit above 1,000.
I'm not exactly sure what the exact number would be.
And it's kind of hard to tell because if you have it, it's going to be awfully close.
Yeah, I've got one meg of RAM.
I think on my laptop.
What scared me was when you said that some systems could actually come with the virus because I haven't used a...
I've practiced safe computing.
I've never used a modem.
But to suggest that you could actually get the system with it on there already is pretty...
Well, it's pretty scary the ways you can get it because you are running software of some kind.
And it's possible that...
In fact, somebody has told me that commercial software is being shipped with this virus in it.
And if that's the case, then it could be spread in all different ways.
For instance, if you have a particular word processor and it's got the virus in it,
and you write something to a disk and then copy that disk to another computer system,
you've just infected everybody along the way.
Right.
And you don't even know it.
So if I've got one meg of RAM, then...
Because I look at this check disk and it tells me how many bytes in the total disk space
and how many bytes available on the disk and how many bytes in each allocation table.
I don't see anything about RAM.
What does it say about total memory?
Total...
It should be the last two.
655360.
655360.
Right.
Okay, that tells me that you have 640K in your PC, not 1000.
Okay.
And that's the correct number that you should have, 655360.
Okay.
If it was 653312, then you would have a problem.
I thought I had one meg. I guess I don't.
Not in that form.
You might have a meg of addressable RAM that could be used as like a RAM drive or something like that,
but it's not the same kind of RAM that you have in the computer itself.
Right.
Well, then this tells me that I don't have the virus in here.
Thanks a lot.
At least not at the moment.
Okay, thank you.
All right, take care.
2793400.
Good evening.
I also have one of each question.
The virus is a RAM resident virus that stays in the RAM even when you shut your computer off?
Well, the RAM gets, unless you have a laptop that has a battery-powered backup of sorts,
when you turn off your computer, the RAM should disappear.
So you don't have to worry about that.
But if it's on a floppy drive, the floppy will infect the hard drive
and infect all floppies, too, that come in contact after that.
So, yeah, it's a pretty nasty virus.
On a second, Mr. Nidor certainly will have my support coming in through 2600, which I subscribe to.
But I work on a 911 ambulance where we have the KDTs, the computer terminals and signal devices on all the ambulances.
And if he's able to discuss the actual nature of the system without jeopardizing himself again,
I'd be very interested to know exactly what the sort of thing that he did was and what they got so upset about.
Well, Craig didn't really do anything.
I mean, he printed what somebody else was able to get.
But, Craig, perhaps you want to go into detail as to...
Right.
This is not a computer document.
This is not.
There's no phone numbers.
There's no passwords.
It doesn't describe how to gain access to a computer system.
It was really more of a generic describing the administrative aspect of 911.
Which division of a phone company is responsible for marketing the product to, say, municipalities?
Who's in charge of maintenance?
Who's in charge of troubleshooting and design work?
I mean, I can read you some phrases out of here if you want.
So it has nothing to do with getting into the system.
That's right.
Yeah, and that's something that was not made clear at all in the spring of 1990.
The media was reporting it as having 911 code, making it seem as if they actually had the program and could control things.
And actually, all they have is a very boring document.
Craig, perhaps you do want to read a couple of lines of that if it won't put our listeners to sleep.
That would be great.
I'll just start.
I mean, it's like six or so pages, so I'm not going to go through the whole thing here.
But just I'll just start at the beginning.
Description of service.
The control office for emergency 911 service is assigned in accordance with the existing standard guidelines to one of the following centers.
Special services center, major account center, serving test center, toll control center.
The SSE-MAC designation is used in this document interchangeably for any of these four centers.
The special services centers or major account centers have been designated as the trouble reporting contact for all E911 customer PSAP reported troubles.
Subscribers who have trouble on an E911 call will continue to conduct local repair service.
We will refer the trouble to the SSE-MAC when appropriate.
All right, Craig, let me just step in here.
If that document is worth $79,000, you probably just read out about $1,000 worth of it right now.
And it's pretty boring stuff, I must say.
Right. I mean, essentially, the individual sent it over.
I think his interest and originally our interest in even seeing a document about 911 is just to learn about how call tracing was done.
But it really doesn't go into it here.
Whatever it was, though, by printing it, you certainly stepped on somebody's toes.
They didn't want that information to get out, boring as it may be.
And they sought to crucify you and damn near succeeded.
I'm sorry. Is there any indication of what in the document they were afraid of being made public?
Well, you see, the truth is that they really – the government and Bell, I'm not sure, really cared anything about this document.
It was just that they wanted to make an example out of someone that was, you know, involved with the computer underground, so to speak.
And this was the most convenient way to do it.
I mean, I've been publishing this magazine when they came after me for over five years.
You know, in all that time, if they couldn't find something better than this to use, you know, then this is what they were left with.
And they said, well, now's the time.
They had a very ambitious prosecutor who, you know, was on a big high because he'd gotten this minor put away for ten months.
And I guess what they weren't counting on was for somebody to fight back.
That's the impression I got.
The impression I got, the prosecutor, you know, took a lot of glee at calling my attorney almost on a daily basis every time he had gone through some more of my electronic mail that they had, you know, taken without my knowledge.
And something that might have been said in the email that, you know, at first glance may look slightly suspicious,
and then turns out to be very reasonable when you understand what was going on.
But he would call up all the time and just – he could not understand why I was trying to fight this case.
He was expecting me to beg him for a plea bargain.
And I wasn't going to do that.
Okay. I, for one, am certainly glad that you did.
And I want to thank the person for calling in.
Thank you.
All right. We're going to move to another phone call here.
And I hope people out there are taking down the addresses.
And we'll show some support for Craig and for the First Amendment because this kind of thing cannot be allowed to happen.
If it does happen, we're all going to be on a sinking ship real soon.
And as a publisher, I can recognize the value of freedom of press.
I'm sure people as BAI listeners and people who generally appreciate freedom of speech can understand how fragile it is, how easy it is to tarnish it.
So keep that in mind.
Spread the word, too, because it's important people understand what's going on.
Just because it involves computers doesn't mean that it's beyond our comprehension.
A lot of people seem to feel that way.
This is something very real.
This is something that will affect everybody, not just those of us that have computer systems.
This will affect people that read newspapers, that put out books, magazines.
We talked two weeks ago with somebody that was affected because he ran a bulletin board that some people objected to and had his entire family terrorized as a result.
So it's gradually affecting everybody in some way.
And by fighting back and not crippling people for fighting back, we're making a statement.
Imagine if what happens here is if Craig does go into bankruptcy, never makes it to law school.
Well, people are going to see that.
They're going to see that somebody who stood up for their rights, somebody who stood up for freedom of speech, had to pay a penalty for the rest of their lives.
And if they are asked themselves, are you willing to stand up for your freedom, they're going to say, hell no.
Because, you know, I'll get by somehow, but I don't want to destroy my future because I've got these ideals I want to stand up for.
So every time you allow something like this to happen, you're going to hurt things for everybody.
Because, you know, you take away a little bit of freedom and it doesn't get replaced.
It never gets replaced unless we stand up and fight for it.
Okay, we'll give out the addresses and phone numbers one more time before the end of the show.
Let's see if we can fit in some more phone calls here.
Good evening, you're on the air.
Yes, hello?
Go ahead.
Yes, you just said you were going to give out the phone number again.
Because, Emmanuel, you said it so fast, the phone number and the address.
I couldn't even write anything down except for 516.
Okay.
All right, well, that's why we're warning you again that we're going to do it one more time before the end of the hour.
So that should give everybody plenty of time to get working pens together.
Emmanuel, when you say the 516 number, could you please say it slow, please?
Okay, no problem.
All right, thank you.
All right.
All right, good luck.
Thanks.
I guess that's the only reason they called, was to ask me to slow down a little bit.
Okay, point taken.
Good evening.
Hello, my support to Craig, and he's standing up for freedom of speech and his rights.
And my accolades to Craig, as well as to you, Emmanuel, for bringing this information on and in full, and for your program altogether.
I find this to be a most, with all the BI programs that I find so important, I would say this is about the, by far, the most important one.
It concerns our very basic rights and infringements on them.
And many of them coming from directions where, if we're not computer users and so forth, or tied up with other things in our daily lives and livelihoods, we're bound to miss.
And what you cover involves such a thing as the telephone, which all of us use.
And I find both the, what's the word, mercenariness of the phone companies, as well as their infringements on our rights to be horrifying ones, and horrible things ahead of us unless we stop them.
Okay, well put.
Thank you again, and carry on.
All right, thanks for calling.
Nothing like hearing from somebody that believes in what they say, and that's what I believe BI listeners are all about.
Okay, let's see how many we can fit in in the next minute or so.
Good evening.
Hi, let me just turn you down here.
Okay.
Okay, one thing.
Yeah, as far as bankruptcy goes, it is viable.
I know what you're going through.
I kind of went through it myself, and I know other people who have gone through this themselves as well.
And I just recently found out the lowdown as far as bankruptcy.
I'm not encouraging you to do it because a lot of these applications ask if you've ever had any financial difficulty and if you've ever been bankrupt.
I know it's got to make a black eye somewhere in the application, and I'm not recommending that you do, but it is a way out.
It's not a way of necessarily restructuring and having to pay back your debt.
It literally absolves you of everything.
So that's one thing to consider unless the NPO, nonprofit organization thing, works.
The other thing is I have another idea that may possibly work.
And what I'd like to know, is there some way I can perhaps call you after airtime to discuss it with you?
Do you have a computer, sir?
No.
You don't.
Okay.
Basically, probably the best thing for you to do would be to call the 2600 office, leave your phone number there, have Craig get a hold of you that way.
Because I'm sure Craig doesn't want to give out his home number to millions of people.
Actually, I was thinking of more of approaching you with that because as far as Craig is concerned,
Craig and others like him could tap into it from essential sorts, which would be you.
So I was wondering if I could contact you perhaps after.
Sure.
You can call the office.
We'll give out the phone number at the end of the program.
Okay.
Again, great show.
All right.
Thanks for calling.
I think we have time for one more phone call.
Good evening.
Oh.
Yeah, yeah.
How are you doing?
Okay.
I wanted to know a couple of weeks ago they gave out a number where if you call that number, you can get what long-distance service that you have.
Yes, that would be toll-free area code 700-555-4141.
Is it only for what service you have or can you call like someone else's number and see what service they're using?
No, you have to call from a particular phone line.
I see.
Okay.
Does 2600 have a BBS?
No, we do not.
Okay.
How do I go about subscribing to the magazine then?
We'll give out the address to send any kind of checks for Craig,
and you can also write to that address and inquire about a subscription or call the phone number and get information that way.
Okay.
All right.
Thanks for calling.
Awesome.
That's going to just about do it for us.
Let's give out the addresses one more time.
First of all, I know that people are concerned about the Michelangelo virus, so let me just give out two of those phone numbers first for the bulletin boards.
If you want to download a particular virus wiper outer program, call area code 408-973-9598 or 408-973-9834.
Now, to support Craig in his fight for freedom of speech and help wipe out the massive debt he's incurred, two ways you can do that.
One is through the magazine.
You can write to 2600 NIDORF DEFENSE FUND.
That's P.O.
Box 99, and that's in Middle Island.
Two words, Middle Island, New York, zip code 11953.
You can also reach Craig through 2600 by calling 516-751-2600.
And Craig also has another way that you can show support directly through the legal office.
Right.
If they're interested, you know, I mean, they can just go through 2600.
That's fine.
But if they want to do it directly, they can send a check made out to the law firm Kattenmuchin and Zavis, K-A-T-T-E-N-M-U-C-H-I-N-Z-A-V-I-S,
to the attention of Sheldon Zenner.
That's who they should mail it to.
And their address is 525 West Monroe Street, Suite 1600 in Chicago, Illinois, 60606.
Okay.
And we hope that BIR listeners show a strong response to that because we are always at the forefront of battles for freedom of speech.
Craig, I want to thank you very much for taking time out this evening.
Good luck to you, and we'll update people as to how things go for you.
Great. Thank you.
All right.
Take care.
That's going to just about do it for us here tonight.
The program is off the hook.
We'll be back again next week with more exciting tales of the unknown from the world of technology.
Stay tuned for the Personal Computer Show here on WBAI-New York.