Off The Hook - 1992-03-04

[00:02.880 --> 00:07.820]  [SPEAKER_00]: ...Center, 647 Columbus Avenue at 91st Street.
[00:07.900 --> 00:13.180]  [SPEAKER_00]: For more information, call 246-3811, extension 589.
[00:13.640 --> 00:17.540]  [SPEAKER_00]: That's 246-3811, extension 589.
[00:17.960 --> 00:23.300]  [SPEAKER_00]: This has been a public service on behalf of the International Working Women's Day Committee, 92.
[00:23.300 --> 00:28.320]  [SPEAKER_00]: Often sung in church and on happy occasions, these words...
[00:28.320 --> 00:32.160]  [SPEAKER_01]: And you're listening to WBAI in New York.
[00:32.540 --> 00:36.880]  [SPEAKER_01]: Time for a special edition of Off the Hook.
[00:43.720 --> 00:48.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
[00:49.140 --> 00:51.240]  [SPEAKER_05]: I cut myself while shaving.
[00:51.820 --> 00:53.800]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now I can't make a call.
[00:54.560 --> 00:56.580]  [SPEAKER_05]: It couldn't get much worse.
[00:56.580 --> 00:59.140]  [SPEAKER_05]: But if they could, they would.
[00:59.440 --> 01:00.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: Bon, diddly-bom.
[01:00.220 --> 01:02.020]  [SPEAKER_05]: For the best, expect the worst.
[01:02.540 --> 01:04.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: I hope that's understood.
[01:04.860 --> 01:05.600]  [SPEAKER_05]: Bon, diddly-bom.
[02:35.480 --> 02:36.700]  [SPEAKER_01]: Grateful asleep.
[02:37.620 --> 02:39.780]  [SPEAKER_01]: More grateful still to be.
[02:41.380 --> 02:42.480]  [SPEAKER_01]: Of marble.
[02:43.680 --> 02:50.080]  [SPEAKER_01]: For while shameless wrong and woe prevail, tis best to neither hear nor see.
[02:50.800 --> 02:54.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: Then, wake me not, I pray you.
[02:55.140 --> 02:55.980]  [SPEAKER_01]: Hush.
[02:56.780 --> 02:58.140]  [SPEAKER_01]: Speak low.
[03:09.640 --> 03:11.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: Words written by Michelangelo.
[03:24.460 --> 03:38.840]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's written that artists are nevertheless under great obligations to Michelangelo, seeing that he has thus broken the barriers and chains whereby they were perpetually compelled to walk in a beaten path.
[03:40.000 --> 03:48.300]  [SPEAKER_01]: While he still more effectually completed the liberation and made known his own views in the library of San Lorenzo.
[03:54.020 --> 04:03.160]  [SPEAKER_01]: The admirable distribution of the windows, the construction of the ceiling, and the fine entrance of the vestibule can never be sufficiently extolled.
[04:05.680 --> 04:14.000]  [SPEAKER_01]: Boldness and grace are equally conspicuous in the work as a whole and in every part in all the building.
[04:14.000 --> 04:24.400]  [SPEAKER_01]: At a word, which is so unlike the common fashion of treatment, that everyone stands amazed at the sight thereof.
[04:28.530 --> 04:30.330]  [SPEAKER_01]: And it is an amazing sight.
[04:32.550 --> 04:34.910]  [SPEAKER_01]: And Michelangelo has not left us.
[04:38.690 --> 04:41.230]  [SPEAKER_01]: In fact, it's just around the corner.
[06:16.750 --> 06:21.070]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, someone's certainly broken the law in the last couple of months.
[06:21.430 --> 06:26.630]  [SPEAKER_01]: The Michelangelo virus is spreading wildly all over the place.
[06:26.630 --> 06:36.450]  [SPEAKER_01]: And on March 6th, which more people know now than ever before, March 6th is Michelangelo's birthday.
[06:36.450 --> 06:37.970]  [SPEAKER_01]: And wouldn't he be proud?
[06:44.640 --> 06:48.480]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'd like to quote something from the Little Black Book of Computer Viruses.
[06:48.960 --> 06:53.560]  [SPEAKER_01]: A wonderful guide to the many different viruses that are out there.
[06:53.640 --> 06:57.160]  [SPEAKER_01]: And then we'll get into what Michelangelo is.
[06:57.600 --> 07:04.040]  [SPEAKER_01]: We'll have special guests, your phone calls, and we'll also be talking about this at 10 o'clock on the Personal Computer Show.
[07:04.920 --> 07:07.780]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's one of those special things.
[07:24.970 --> 07:29.730]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, most problems people have with computers are simply their own fault.
[07:30.550 --> 07:38.650]  [SPEAKER_01]: For example, they accidentally delete all the files in their current directory rather than in another directory, as they intended.
[07:38.850 --> 07:41.470]  [SPEAKER_01]: Or perhaps they format the wrong disk.
[07:44.010 --> 07:47.710]  [SPEAKER_01]: Perhaps someone routinely does something wrong out of ignorance.
[07:48.810 --> 07:53.590]  [SPEAKER_01]: Like turning the computer off in the middle of a program, causing files to get scrambled.
[07:55.890 --> 08:04.390]  [SPEAKER_01]: Following close on the heels of these kinds of problems are hardware problems, like a misaligned floppy drive or a hard disk failure.
[08:07.270 --> 08:15.590]  [SPEAKER_01]: These kind of routine problems are made worse than necessary when users do not plan for them and fail to back up their work on a regular basis.
[08:16.770 --> 08:30.050]  [SPEAKER_01]: And this stupidity can easily turn a problem that might have cost $300 for a new hard disk into a nightmare which will ultimately cost tens of thousands of dollars.
[08:30.850 --> 08:42.530]  [SPEAKER_01]: And when such a disaster happens, it's human nature to want to find someone or something else to blame rather than admitting it is your own fault.
[08:45.030 --> 08:49.390]  [SPEAKER_01]: Viruses have proven to be an excellent scapegoat for all kinds of problems.
[08:55.320 --> 09:00.780]  [SPEAKER_01]: And now, a quote from Genesis 1, 21 and 22.
[09:01.700 --> 09:06.540]  [SPEAKER_01]: And God saw that it was good, and God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful...
[09:07.400 --> 09:08.480]  [SPEAKER_01]: I messed that one up.
[09:08.520 --> 09:10.720]  [SPEAKER_01]: Be fruitful and multiply.
[09:12.160 --> 09:13.520]  [SPEAKER_01]: I wouldn't make a good God.
[09:13.520 --> 09:17.520]  [SPEAKER_01]: But Little Black Book of Computer Viruses is available on...
[09:18.980 --> 09:20.300]  [SPEAKER_01]: What is it available on?
[09:20.340 --> 09:22.000]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's written by Mark Ludwig.
[09:22.260 --> 09:24.020]  [SPEAKER_01]: American Eagle Publications.
[09:24.760 --> 09:26.280]  [SPEAKER_01]: And you can write to them.
[09:26.380 --> 09:29.500]  [SPEAKER_01]: Post Office Box 41401.
[09:29.700 --> 09:30.700]  [SPEAKER_01]: Tucson, Arizona.
[09:32.500 --> 09:33.100]  [SPEAKER_01]: 85717.
[09:34.560 --> 09:39.100]  [SPEAKER_01]: And their phone number is 602-888-4957.
[09:39.920 --> 09:46.080]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, speaking of stupidity, all kinds of stupid things are going on.
[09:46.180 --> 09:57.060]  [SPEAKER_01]: There was a company up in Montreal, I believe, that was destroyed by their own incompetence when it came to computers.
[09:58.080 --> 10:00.380]  [SPEAKER_01]: This is an article from the Montreal Gazette.
[10:00.380 --> 10:12.280]  [SPEAKER_01]: When Montreal Life Insurance Company, a growing, profitable insurer, decided to upgrade its main computer program 10 years ago, it jumped in with both feet.
[10:14.820 --> 10:23.880]  [SPEAKER_01]: The new program, a kind called an integrated one, would tie together every aspect of the company's operations.
[10:27.570 --> 10:29.550]  [SPEAKER_01]: There was a small problem, though.
[10:29.550 --> 10:35.930]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, the enormous program had been customized and installed in haste.
[10:36.830 --> 10:43.150]  [SPEAKER_01]: Scattered through its one million lines of computer instructions, there were a few undetected bugs.
[10:43.730 --> 10:56.530]  [SPEAKER_01]: And since the system was integrated, every time a bug caused an error in one department's files, the error was immediately reflected in several other departments' files.
[10:58.210 --> 11:01.870]  [SPEAKER_01]: And within a year, Montreal Life was losing money.
[11:02.310 --> 11:04.970]  [SPEAKER_01]: After three years, the company was near collapse.
[11:05.630 --> 11:09.750]  [SPEAKER_01]: Errors in commission checks, for example, drove away most of the company's agents.
[11:10.390 --> 11:12.730]  [SPEAKER_01]: The agents took their clients with them.
[11:14.150 --> 11:17.710]  [SPEAKER_01]: And when agents weren't underpaid, they were overpaid.
[11:19.130 --> 11:23.430]  [SPEAKER_01]: Which accounted for another one million dollars in losses.
[11:31.220 --> 11:33.060]  [SPEAKER_01]: And it doesn't stop there, of course.
[11:36.640 --> 11:48.160]  [SPEAKER_01]: About 1,000 Colorado ATM users had their visas and MasterCards abruptly terminated in February by an out-of-control computer system.
[11:49.220 --> 11:51.000]  [SPEAKER_01]: This from the Denver Post.
[11:51.320 --> 12:03.920]  [SPEAKER_01]: For 90 minutes during the President's Day weekend, the Rocky Mountain Bank Card System software told ATMs around the state to eat the cards instead of dishing out cash or taking deposits.
[12:05.100 --> 12:16.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: The once-in-a-decade glitch went unnoticed because it occurred as programmers were patching in a correction to a different problem.
[12:19.060 --> 12:28.700]  [SPEAKER_01]: The company is rushing new plastic and letters of apology to customers who got terminated.
[12:42.920 --> 12:45.660]  [SPEAKER_01]: And now, we have Michelangelo.
[12:45.940 --> 12:47.560]  [SPEAKER_01]: A man-made virus.
[12:47.920 --> 12:51.940]  [SPEAKER_01]: Something that was intentionally released.
[12:52.740 --> 12:57.780]  [SPEAKER_01]: Something that as of March 6th will destroy data in various places.
[12:59.020 --> 13:01.160]  [SPEAKER_01]: Will it destroy data in your computer?
[13:01.860 --> 13:04.940]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's something we'll take a stab at tonight.
[13:08.140 --> 13:11.440]  [SPEAKER_01]: From the New York Times, March 3rd, 1992.
[13:12.740 --> 13:22.640]  [SPEAKER_01]: Intel Corporation said on Monday it had stopped shipping a computer network software program because some units were found to be infected with the Michelangelo virus.
[13:23.000 --> 13:31.140]  [SPEAKER_01]: A program that infects IBM and compatible personal computers and can potentially destroy data.
[13:32.780 --> 13:47.420]  [SPEAKER_01]: a division of Intel in Hillsborough, Oregon said it had shipped more than 800 copies of the program called Landspool 3.01 which inadvertently contained the virus.
[13:50.140 --> 13:58.500]  [SPEAKER_01]: The company said it had checked its software with a virus scanning program before shipping it but that it had failed to detect the virus.
[14:01.410 --> 14:13.270]  [SPEAKER_01]: A number of computer makers and software publishers have issued similar alerts about the Michelangelo program and a variety of companies are now offering free software to check for the virus.
[14:15.270 --> 14:27.070]  [SPEAKER_01]: There are more than 1,000 known software viruses that can copy themselves from computer to computer by attaching to programs and files.
[15:25.040 --> 15:26.500]  [SPEAKER_01]: and we have a warning
[15:29.930 --> 15:47.010]  [SPEAKER_01]: from Prentice Hall International We have found that the disks distributed with our copy of the book Neural Networks and Fuzzy Systems by Bart Cosco are infected with the Michelangelo virus
[15:58.260 --> 16:13.440]  [SPEAKER_01]: and we also have obtained a copy of a message The message from Intel, who we just mentioned, was also inadvertently spreading the virus... all over the place.
[16:14.720 --> 16:22.200]  [SPEAKER_01]: Dear Landspool user, like a number of commercial hardware and software vendors, we have been struck by the Michelangelo virus.
[16:22.860 --> 16:34.700]  [SPEAKER_01]: We have discovered the Michelangelo virus on the five-and-a-quarter-inch diskettes, shipped with Landspool 286 version 3.01 and Landspool 386 version 3.01.
[16:34.900 --> 16:40.880]  [SPEAKER_01]: They included a disk with a custom-written utility to check for the virus and a fact sheet about it.
[16:41.700 --> 16:49.400]  [SPEAKER_01]: They also set up a toll-free hotline, 800-228-4561, to provide assistance with fighting it.
[16:50.000 --> 16:55.020]  [SPEAKER_01]: And they're also offering affected Landspool customers a free copy of Land Protect.
[16:57.040 --> 17:02.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: They're server-based network virus protection, which ordinarily lists for $999.
[17:04.660 --> 17:17.640]  [SPEAKER_01]: And you know, while there are a lot of companies that are making programs available for free to combat this virus, there's an awful lot that are selling virus protection programs now.
[17:17.640 --> 17:20.360]  [SPEAKER_01]: And you have to wonder, how do they feel?
[17:21.510 --> 17:28.180]  [SPEAKER_01]: Do they feel sad that they have to distribute all these programs all of a sudden?
[17:30.060 --> 17:38.510]  [SPEAKER_01]: Are they sad that they have to work double shifts and have to deal with all that incoming cash?
[17:41.600 --> 17:43.560]  [SPEAKER_01]: A strange kind of sadness, no doubt.
[17:50.370 --> 17:57.170]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, we're going to be talking about what Michelangelo means to the man in the street.
[17:57.370 --> 17:59.310]  [SPEAKER_01]: And we're going to have some guests up.
[18:00.170 --> 18:03.350]  [SPEAKER_01]: We'll be taking phone calls, 212-279-3400.
[18:03.350 --> 18:11.050]  [SPEAKER_01]: Before we get started, a little story that appeared in the Seattle Times.
[18:12.050 --> 18:14.570]  [SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't have anything to do with viruses.
[18:17.230 --> 18:19.970]  [SPEAKER_01]: But it does have to do with hackers to a degree.
[18:25.100 --> 18:27.640]  [SPEAKER_01]: This was about, uh, Peter the Great.
[18:27.920 --> 18:30.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, we're talking about Michelangelo and Peter the Great tonight.
[18:31.140 --> 18:45.360]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, they arrested Peter the Great in, uh, Bellevue, Washington, a month ago, for investigation of attempted theft and using an unauthorized credit card number to try to purchase a $4,000 computer from a store in Bellevue.
[18:47.920 --> 18:55.880]  [SPEAKER_01]: And in the youth's car, they found another $4,000 computer obtained earlier that day from a Seattle computer store.
[18:56.480 --> 19:01.260]  [SPEAKER_01]: They also claimed to have found documents suggesting that the youth had used credit information illegally.
[19:03.240 --> 19:12.420]  [SPEAKER_01]: After the youth was arrested, he admitted to being a hacker and using his parents' home computer and telephone to call bulletin boards.
[19:14.740 --> 19:17.260]  [SPEAKER_01]: An elaborate type of e-mail...
[19:17.260 --> 19:21.290]  [SPEAKER_01]: The bulletin boards offer the user electronic messaging.
[19:22.100 --> 19:37.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: An elaborate type of e-mail system allowed him to gain access to pirate bulletin directories of how-to articles on ways of cracking computer systems containing everything from credit records and phone accounts to files in the University of Washington's chemistry department.
[19:39.540 --> 19:45.720]  [SPEAKER_01]: And, once the youth decided which articles he wanted most, he would copy them onto his own disk.
[19:46.620 --> 19:52.680]  [SPEAKER_01]: And now police are pouring over hundreds of disks confiscated from his parents' house to see just how much information he had.
[19:53.980 --> 19:56.820]  [SPEAKER_01]: The parents knew nothing of what was going on, police say.
[19:57.900 --> 20:05.380]  [SPEAKER_01]: Police also seized a copy of a New York-based magazine called 2600, aimed at hackers.
[20:06.160 --> 20:14.040]  [SPEAKER_01]: And, like the bulletin boards, the magazine provides readers with a variety of how-to articles.
[20:15.440 --> 20:26.320]  [SPEAKER_01]: The teenager, who was released to his parents' custody, told police the magazine taught him how to use a device that can imitate the sound of coins dropping into a payphone.
[20:27.510 --> 20:30.480]  [SPEAKER_01]: With that, he could dial outside computers for free.
[20:33.900 --> 20:42.380]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, it's kind of startling to see a magazine you're affiliated with refer to as a criminal weapon.
[20:44.540 --> 20:56.660]  [SPEAKER_01]: But a lot of people do have that impression of 2600, the how-to journal that tells people how to do things that many other people would rather they not be told how to do.
[20:58.480 --> 21:00.980]  [SPEAKER_01]: And our viewpoint is pretty simple on that.
[21:01.140 --> 21:11.000]  [SPEAKER_01]: If something is easy to figure out, if people have the desire to learn something, is that wrong in itself?
[21:13.970 --> 21:16.470]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, naturally, information can be abused.
[21:16.870 --> 21:18.770]  [SPEAKER_01]: People can cheat other people.
[21:18.890 --> 21:19.630]  [SPEAKER_01]: People can steal.
[21:21.050 --> 21:23.010]  [SPEAKER_01]: And this happens all the time.
[21:23.550 --> 21:26.390]  [SPEAKER_01]: Is that ever an excuse for withholding information?
[21:31.880 --> 21:34.240]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I have an idea what the answer is.
[21:34.920 --> 21:40.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: But I'd certainly like to hear from more people as far as their impressions of this.
[21:41.080 --> 21:42.240]  [SPEAKER_01]: Alright, enough about that.
[21:43.920 --> 21:49.000]  [SPEAKER_01]: Michelangelo, set to strike on the 6th of March, which is only two days away.
[21:50.360 --> 21:53.820]  [SPEAKER_01]: If you have an MS-DOS computer, you may be at risk.
[21:55.020 --> 22:01.140]  [SPEAKER_01]: If you don't have an MS-DOS computer, you're not at risk for this particular virus, but you could be at risk for other viruses.
[22:02.820 --> 22:09.120]  [SPEAKER_01]: We have with us, this evening, FiberOptic, who has done his share of work with computers.
[22:09.800 --> 22:11.640]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not so sure about computer viruses.
[22:11.840 --> 22:24.040]  [SPEAKER_01]: He has a, I guess, a couple of non-broadcastable words as far as the people that take this kind of thing seriously.
[22:24.760 --> 22:33.220]  [SPEAKER_01]: If you could maybe, uh, water it down a little bit and tell us what you think of people who take things like this so seriously.
[22:34.220 --> 22:34.620]  [SPEAKER_09]: Surely.
[22:35.000 --> 22:37.460]  [SPEAKER_09]: And, uh, hello all you listeners out there, by the way.
[22:38.240 --> 22:43.080]  [SPEAKER_09]: Uh, what I'd like to say pretty much is that, uh, I'm ashamed that, uh...
[22:43.080 --> 22:47.980]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, first of all, I'd just like to cover the antivirus software authors before I get into the viruses.
[22:49.760 --> 23:12.100]  [SPEAKER_09]: Individuals who, uh, offer supposed relief for your grief concerning computer viruses, and they try to aim their, their software for the corporate world, especially people who are probably going to be more ignorant of the internals of a computer, and think that viruses are these evil programs that fly through the air and infect everything in sight,
[23:12.540 --> 23:15.460]  [SPEAKER_09]: wreaking havoc on everyone's files and so on and so forth.
[23:16.260 --> 23:25.320]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, viruses are a lot less of a threat to someone who's informed about, uh, what's going on inside the computer they use and computers in general.
[23:26.160 --> 23:37.660]  [SPEAKER_09]: Um, it's my impression that, uh, people in the corporate world, for the most part, are just interested in, in, uh, just enough information about the computer they use to do their job.
[23:37.780 --> 23:42.620]  [SPEAKER_09]: They come in in the morning, they punch in, and they work until 5 o'clock and then they leave.
[23:42.620 --> 23:50.900]  [SPEAKER_09]: They're not really caring all too much about how their computer works, aside from, uh, possibly using their word processor or their, uh, database application.
[23:51.840 --> 23:56.360]  [SPEAKER_01]: They look upon it as just, uh, just a, a tool, nothing to really get excited about.
[23:56.360 --> 23:56.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[23:56.920 --> 23:58.280]  [SPEAKER_09]: The thing they get excited about...
[23:58.280 --> 23:59.000]  [SPEAKER_01]: Like a pencil sharpener or something.
[23:59.120 --> 23:59.340]  [SPEAKER_09]: Right.
[23:59.820 --> 24:01.560]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, then, then there's another thing.
[24:01.660 --> 24:08.520]  [SPEAKER_09]: The thing they get excited about is when they have some, something they don't understand, and this goes for anything in general, not only computers.
[24:09.260 --> 24:16.100]  [SPEAKER_09]: Anything someone doesn't understand that can pose a threat to them obviously makes them very frightened, which, uh, should be understandable.
[24:16.800 --> 24:24.480]  [SPEAKER_09]: But it's when these people trust someone else to give them all the answers, they, they can be rest assured that someone is gonna try to screw them over.
[24:24.940 --> 24:25.200]  [SPEAKER_09]: Uh-huh.
[24:25.260 --> 24:28.540]  [SPEAKER_09]: Or is gonna try to take advantage of them because they feel that they're in a spot.
[24:29.280 --> 24:31.660]  [SPEAKER_09]: And, of course, we have the media playing on the whole thing.
[24:31.840 --> 24:34.340]  [SPEAKER_09]: The media has been offering various kinds of coverage.
[24:34.560 --> 24:37.960]  [SPEAKER_09]: And by media, I specifically mean newspapers and the news on TV.
[24:38.760 --> 24:44.880]  [SPEAKER_09]: Has been offering, uh, various sorts of explanation and just spreading mass hysteria, I think.
[24:45.260 --> 24:51.760]  [SPEAKER_09]: When they, they find just the right guy to show on TV who says he feels like he was raped and physically assaulted.
[24:52.020 --> 24:53.040]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, you saw that one too, huh?
[24:53.200 --> 24:53.300]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[24:53.300 --> 24:54.700]  [SPEAKER_01]: There was, what, NBC, I think?
[24:54.820 --> 24:56.220]  [SPEAKER_09]: That was, uh, yeah, NBC.
[24:56.480 --> 24:56.740]  [SPEAKER_09]: Exactly.
[24:58.540 --> 25:03.220]  [SPEAKER_01]: The methodology of, uh, hackers or viruses to rape is one that I, I can never quite, uh, fathom.
[25:03.360 --> 25:09.740]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I, I think if you ask a rape victim, uh, you'll find that it's not really a, a, a bona fide comparison.
[25:09.900 --> 25:10.060]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[25:10.220 --> 25:24.000]  [SPEAKER_09]: And, and you have, you have, uh, anti-virus software authors and people in general who are supposedly researching viruses saying that people who write viruses are mentally disturbed and need to be locked away or something to that, to that effect.
[25:25.020 --> 25:35.660]  [SPEAKER_09]: Uh, well, I don't know where they make that claim from since, uh, anyone with the fundamental knowledge of how to program is going to be able to, to write their own virus.
[25:36.260 --> 25:47.660]  [SPEAKER_09]: As, as anyone is going to know, anyone who, anyone who's a programmer that's worth his salt, who's looked at many of the viruses in existence, is going to know that most of them weren't made by any programming geniuses.
[25:47.660 --> 25:48.760]  [SPEAKER_01]: No, it's, it's quite simple.
[25:48.840 --> 26:00.060]  [SPEAKER_01]: In fact, when I was, when I was younger, uh, I remember, I don't know if this qualifies as a virus, but I just, I, I wrote a basic program to randomize and just keep making up new basic programs and titling them.
[26:00.500 --> 26:05.040]  [SPEAKER_01]: And it wasn't very long before the entire disk of the system that I was using was filled up with these nonsense files.
[26:05.200 --> 26:08.940]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, is that technically a virus or is that just messing up the system?
[26:08.940 --> 26:10.940]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, there, there's various types of viruses.
[26:11.160 --> 26:27.000]  [SPEAKER_09]: Usually when you consider a virus, you're labeling those programs, which repli-, replicate themselves out of control, that, uh, come into contact with other machines, usually through someone else, by inserting a disk into that machine, so on and so forth.
[26:27.320 --> 26:34.640]  [SPEAKER_09]: There are, of course, viruses which are lesser known, because, uh, most of the, most of the time when you hear about viruses, they're focused on IBM PCs.
[26:35.240 --> 26:47.500]  [SPEAKER_09]: There are viruses, or any program in general can be written, to self-replicate itself through a computer network, for instance, infecting, infecting host machines on a backbone, or things of that nature.
[26:48.080 --> 26:48.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh-huh.
[26:48.480 --> 26:57.600]  [SPEAKER_09]: When people talk about viruses on the PC, there, there's, uh, various different types, but there are some, uh, broad classifications that can be drawn.
[26:58.280 --> 27:01.420]  [SPEAKER_09]: There's, uh, the well-known boot sector virus.
[27:01.600 --> 27:02.460]  [SPEAKER_09]: Which is what, Michelangelo is.
[27:02.460 --> 27:21.600]  [SPEAKER_09]: Of which Michelangelo is one, which is a type of virus that lodges itself on the boot sector, or the first sector on the entire disk, and is a, either gonna, usually it's gonna tack on some assembly language code to the normal code involved in booting up the machine.
[27:21.800 --> 27:39.100]  [SPEAKER_09]: So that when the computer is booted up off of a disk that is infected, the virus, the virus will usually replicate, replicate itself onto the boot sector of the hard drive, if there is one, or onto any other floppy disks that may be in other drives on that particular machine.
[27:40.340 --> 27:44.200]  [SPEAKER_09]: Now, to non-bootable floppy disks as well as bootable floppy disks?
[27:44.580 --> 27:46.060]  [SPEAKER_09]: Uh, um, um, I don't know.
[27:46.240 --> 27:48.460]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, the intelligence of the virus is another thing.
[27:48.600 --> 27:54.560]  [SPEAKER_09]: By intelligence, I mean whoever programs the virus, and what they intended on doing, they can make it do whatever they wish.
[27:55.280 --> 28:02.020]  [SPEAKER_09]: Obviously, if you, uh, if you have a virus attach itself to a boot sector of a disk that is not bootable, it wouldn't do anything.
[28:02.180 --> 28:02.400]  [SPEAKER_09]: Mm-hmm.
[28:02.440 --> 28:03.300]  [SPEAKER_09]: So it wouldn't matter.
[28:03.300 --> 28:08.200]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, now, the only way somebody could have gotten the Michelangelo virus, as I understand it, is...
[28:08.200 --> 28:08.940]  [SPEAKER_01]: Just by booting a disk.
[28:09.080 --> 28:10.880]  [SPEAKER_01]: If they booted off a floppy disk.
[28:11.020 --> 28:11.080]  [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[28:11.080 --> 28:15.480]  [SPEAKER_01]: So if you haven't booted off any other disk other than your hard drive, there's really no way you could have gotten this virus?
[28:15.940 --> 28:16.400]  [SPEAKER_09]: This is true.
[28:16.500 --> 28:20.980]  [SPEAKER_09]: This particular virus is one of those sorts where it only becomes active when the computer is booted.
[28:21.980 --> 28:32.240]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, if somebody were to say, copy software, and copy that to their hard drive, is there any way that person could have gotten the virus in that way if they didn't boot off that floppy drive?
[28:32.240 --> 28:39.400]  [SPEAKER_09]: Again, it depends on the intelligence of the person or the intelligence of the virus by what they intended on the virus doing.
[28:39.840 --> 28:45.860]  [SPEAKER_09]: There's other types of viruses which connect themselves to files that are found on a particular computer.
[28:46.120 --> 29:05.020]  [SPEAKER_09]: They might attach themselves to COM files or EXE files on an MS-DOS machine, so that when those particular files are run by the user, the virus would replicate itself, possibly conditionally affecting the boot sector as well as infecting and attaching itself to other programs of an executable nature.
[29:06.120 --> 29:06.960]  [SPEAKER_01]: I see.
[29:07.240 --> 29:09.760]  [SPEAKER_09]: How many viruses have you come across?
[29:10.540 --> 29:12.760]  [SPEAKER_09]: Personally, I've never been infected with the virus at all.
[29:12.960 --> 29:17.200]  [SPEAKER_09]: And I think that viruses are a lot of hype and nonsense.
[29:17.200 --> 29:32.540]  [SPEAKER_09]: Of course, the people that don't understand technical things, or at least had a program in a DOS environment on the low level, as far as programming and assembly language on the IBM PC machine, and programming in a DOS environment.
[29:33.400 --> 29:37.580]  [SPEAKER_09]: People that don't understand these things are probably going to fear viruses.
[29:37.580 --> 29:39.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: Or they're going to fear lots of things, really.
[29:39.960 --> 29:42.000]  [SPEAKER_01]: Because computers are always...
[29:42.000 --> 29:45.480]  [SPEAKER_01]: Just today, I had a problem with the computer, where it was doing something that it shouldn't be doing.
[29:46.400 --> 29:49.380]  [SPEAKER_01]: Namely, crashing every time it tried to send something to a printer.
[29:49.980 --> 29:52.460]  [SPEAKER_01]: And there was absolutely no reason for it to be doing this.
[29:52.520 --> 29:54.780]  [SPEAKER_01]: And it was only doing it for one particular file.
[29:54.860 --> 29:58.040]  [SPEAKER_01]: And the fix was to simply rename the file.
[29:58.200 --> 29:59.760]  [SPEAKER_01]: To update it somehow.
[30:00.000 --> 30:01.180]  [SPEAKER_01]: And it worked fine after that.
[30:01.280 --> 30:02.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, what caused that?
[30:02.360 --> 30:03.100]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'll never know.
[30:03.280 --> 30:05.460]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'll go to my grave never knowing what caused that.
[30:05.460 --> 30:07.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: But I don't think it was a virus.
[30:07.820 --> 30:10.700]  [SPEAKER_01]: I just think it was some kind of weird thing that goes on inside computers.
[30:10.900 --> 30:13.280]  [SPEAKER_01]: And there's all kinds of weird things that go on inside computers.
[30:13.640 --> 30:22.100]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I see, you know, a danger here, when everything is blamed on viruses and hackers and things like that.
[30:22.280 --> 30:23.120]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, this is true.
[30:24.180 --> 30:35.980]  [SPEAKER_09]: There's the problem where things might arise at, say, a certain company or something like that, where data is lost, files are lost, information is lost, stored on a computer.
[30:36.580 --> 30:46.940]  [SPEAKER_09]: If there just happens to be a virus craze going around, there's nothing stopping a particular employee to say that, oh, it was the virus that got it, we're infected.
[30:47.400 --> 30:51.460]  [SPEAKER_09]: To avoid having the blame put on himself, who may or may not have been at fault.
[30:51.780 --> 31:02.800]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, if we've been watching the media, I think we all saw the story of this, I think it's an orphan home or something like that, that had all its data wiped because the Michelangelo virus hit them prematurely.
[31:02.800 --> 31:08.540]  [SPEAKER_01]: I can't help but think, as this lady is explaining how, yes, just said, please wait on the screen.
[31:08.540 --> 31:11.000]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I saw the hard disk light churning away.
[31:11.160 --> 31:13.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: And before I knew it, everything was gone.
[31:13.360 --> 31:14.360]  [SPEAKER_01]: It was all just gone.
[31:14.500 --> 31:21.880]  [SPEAKER_01]: I can't help but think, you know, maybe she unplugged the thing or something or accidentally typed DEL star dot star.
[31:21.880 --> 31:23.240]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I confirmed that.
[31:23.700 --> 31:27.360]  [SPEAKER_01]: I just have that feeling, you know, that maybe something else happened.
[31:27.620 --> 31:30.060]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's always too easy to blame it on a virus.
[31:30.060 --> 31:44.260]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, something that I think is worth commenting is that everyone knows that the Michelangelo virus, once it lodges itself on someone's boot sector or boot sectors, is set to go off on Michelangelo's birthday, March 6th.
[31:44.880 --> 31:45.700]  [SPEAKER_09]: That's great, isn't it?
[31:45.780 --> 31:47.840]  [SPEAKER_09]: Everybody knows Michelangelo's birthday is now.
[31:47.920 --> 31:48.720]  [SPEAKER_09]: I think it's incredible.
[31:49.380 --> 31:54.560]  [SPEAKER_09]: Maybe someday someone will write a virus for me and it'll go off on my birthday when I'm long dead.
[31:54.840 --> 31:58.480]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, that's... there's no better way of making a tribute to someone.
[31:58.640 --> 31:58.980]  [SPEAKER_09]: Surely.
[31:59.560 --> 32:11.080]  [SPEAKER_09]: But the thing I found at fault with that woman in the orphanage home is that the mere fact that the Michelangelo virus is set to go off at a specific date, which hasn't occurred yet.
[32:11.200 --> 32:11.360]  [SPEAKER_09]: Right.
[32:12.200 --> 32:18.160]  [SPEAKER_09]: I mean, the only way I can picture she would have set the virus off is if she would have set the date to March 6th.
[32:18.240 --> 32:19.700]  [SPEAKER_09]: Why she would have done that, I'll never know.
[32:19.880 --> 32:24.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: And if she's capable of doing that, she's capable of typing anything and completely fouling up the system, so...
[32:24.580 --> 32:25.280]  [SPEAKER_01]: This is true.
[32:25.340 --> 32:25.800]  [SPEAKER_01]: Who knows?
[32:25.800 --> 32:33.060]  [SPEAKER_09]: I'm sure it was another reason that screwed up her machine and that she's just attributing it to the fact that there's this virus scare going around.
[32:33.380 --> 32:33.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh-huh.
[32:33.800 --> 32:35.420]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, okay, what should people do?
[32:35.540 --> 32:36.700]  [SPEAKER_01]: There is a virus scare going around.
[32:36.700 --> 32:38.020]  [SPEAKER_01]: The virus has been reported.
[32:38.240 --> 32:40.680]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's been popping up in machines all over the place.
[32:41.680 --> 32:47.020]  [SPEAKER_01]: Should people be taking these reports seriously or just assuming it hasn't hit them?
[32:47.020 --> 32:51.360]  [SPEAKER_09]: People should consider them, but don't fly off the handle about them.
[32:51.500 --> 32:55.540]  [SPEAKER_09]: People seem to be getting all excited over just yet another virus.
[32:55.720 --> 32:59.160]  [SPEAKER_09]: Michelangelo is no cleverly coded programmer's masterpiece.
[32:59.720 --> 33:06.200]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's yet another boot sector virus of which there are many, many, many viruses which are like that.
[33:06.200 --> 33:09.400]  [SPEAKER_09]: To date, there are most antivirus...
[33:10.260 --> 33:11.660]  [SPEAKER_09]: See, this is the funny thing.
[33:11.820 --> 33:17.420]  [SPEAKER_09]: Most antivirus software reports that it can detect up to 800 viruses.
[33:17.900 --> 33:20.520]  [SPEAKER_09]: Now, that's a play on people's imagination.
[33:21.540 --> 33:37.040]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, whether it's questionable whether there even are 800 computer viruses on the PC in existence, there's only going to be maybe under 100 that anyone can even say may or may not be floating around out there somewhere.
[33:37.700 --> 33:53.640]  [SPEAKER_09]: Then there's also the thing to be considered that there's nothing stopping the one person who's making a profit out of the whole thing, the antivirus software authors, from simply hiring someone to manufacture fake viruses to which they can add to their list,
[33:53.880 --> 34:08.000]  [SPEAKER_09]: to their entourage of detectable viruses, and play on this fact and tell people, yes, we can detect 800 viruses, very possibly 500 of those not even existing in the first place.
[34:08.040 --> 34:09.760]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, you know, I take it a step further than that.
[34:09.760 --> 34:17.700]  [SPEAKER_01]: I think that you've got to throw some blame on not only the antiviral software companies, but the software companies themselves.
[34:17.910 --> 34:19.200]  [SPEAKER_01]: Because look what's happening here.
[34:19.260 --> 34:32.300]  [SPEAKER_01]: Everybody is afraid to copy software, to share software, and what better way to get people to go out and buy each individual copy of everything that they ever use to make sure they don't get a virus.
[34:32.720 --> 34:33.450]  [SPEAKER_01]: Another good point.
[34:33.450 --> 34:34.300]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's terrific for them.
[34:34.300 --> 34:40.060]  [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, overpriced software is there for the taking if anybody wants to pay that kind of money.
[34:40.300 --> 34:40.480]  [SPEAKER_09]: Right.
[34:40.760 --> 34:46.370]  [SPEAKER_01]: So it's, you know, it definitely helps the software companies sell overpriced software.
[34:46.460 --> 34:47.240]  [SPEAKER_01]: No question about that.
[34:47.260 --> 34:54.330]  [SPEAKER_09]: Then there's the other thing is that some of these people, some of these software companies anyway, are claiming that the software that they shipped was infected.
[34:54.780 --> 34:57.060]  [SPEAKER_09]: Now, I have two problems with that.
[34:57.950 --> 35:00.540]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, actually one problem worth mentioning anyway.
[35:01.140 --> 35:08.950]  [SPEAKER_09]: On the one hand, it's very possible that this is true, that in their software development lab someone could have introduced this virus into existence on their machines.
[35:09.180 --> 35:33.740]  [SPEAKER_09]: The one problem I have with that is that it would be all too very convenient for a software company to claim that their software was infected with the virus when in fact they were behind schedule in releasing their software, to claim that it was infected as an excuse that they shipped half-assed software or that they weren't able to ship on time in order to keep up with their competitors.
[35:34.240 --> 35:39.740]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's very easy to say that their software was infected as an excuse that they couldn't ship their software.
[35:39.870 --> 35:41.040]  [SPEAKER_09]: That's the one problem I have.
[35:41.040 --> 35:41.350]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[35:41.750 --> 35:52.460]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure there's a lot of people out there saying, oh, that's, you know, unfair to, you know, to blame the companies for this, but consider it's just as unfair to automatically assume that a hacker is behind this.
[35:52.560 --> 35:57.120]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I've heard that in just about every media report about this virus, that a hacker was behind it.
[35:57.280 --> 35:58.560]  [SPEAKER_01]: We don't know who wrote the thing.
[35:58.660 --> 36:03.960]  [SPEAKER_01]: We don't know where it came from, who wrote it, where it started, whose idea it was, who's benefiting from it in any kind of way.
[36:03.960 --> 36:04.240]  [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[36:04.560 --> 36:08.960]  [SPEAKER_01]: And if a hacker did write it, it's not a very hacker-ish thing to do.
[36:09.040 --> 36:09.680]  [SPEAKER_01]: I can tell you that.
[36:09.910 --> 36:12.430]  [SPEAKER_09]: I've heard varying stories about what its origin was.
[36:12.430 --> 36:14.740]  [SPEAKER_09]: I've heard everything from the Netherlands to Australia.
[36:15.180 --> 36:15.430]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh-huh.
[36:15.800 --> 36:18.480]  [SPEAKER_09]: But it really doesn't matter where it originated in my opinion.
[36:18.480 --> 36:19.040]  [SPEAKER_09]: I heard Brooklyn.
[36:19.500 --> 36:20.700]  [SPEAKER_09]: Brooklyn, yeah.
[36:20.890 --> 36:21.830]  [SPEAKER_09]: But that's something else.
[36:21.930 --> 36:22.850]  [SPEAKER_09]: That's a different story.
[36:23.370 --> 36:27.780]  [SPEAKER_09]: But, I mean, there have been hacker reports from Australia.
[36:27.780 --> 36:30.260]  [SPEAKER_09]: There have been hacker reports from the Netherlands.
[36:30.450 --> 36:31.160]  [SPEAKER_09]: Everyone knows that.
[36:31.160 --> 36:35.080]  [SPEAKER_09]: Next, we'll be hearing that the Michelangelo virus originated in Russia.
[36:35.390 --> 36:35.910]  [SPEAKER_09]: Bulgaria.
[36:36.080 --> 36:36.520]  [SPEAKER_09]: Or Bulgaria.
[36:36.520 --> 36:37.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's where the hackers are.
[36:37.720 --> 36:44.350]  [SPEAKER_09]: That's where the antivirus software authors love filling people's heads with all this nonsense.
[36:45.180 --> 36:57.680]  [SPEAKER_09]: People like, dare I say his name, John McAfee, a well-known antivirus software writer, who was featured in that little NBC snippet on TV two days ago.
[36:59.140 --> 37:07.950]  [SPEAKER_09]: And his general take on the whole thing was that let's build up a picture in people's heads who are too ignorant to understand what's going on.
[37:08.120 --> 37:25.020]  [SPEAKER_09]: Let's make them think that the cause of all their problems are these unseen evil hackers that are lurking around out there, which are out there to cause the detriment of society, and that just want to destroy everyone's computer and files for no apparent reason.
[37:25.370 --> 37:33.330]  [SPEAKER_09]: And in the process, make people like him rich, because he'll tell them that the only way to safeguard against such things is to go out and buy his software.
[37:33.480 --> 37:34.460]  [SPEAKER_09]: Isn't that convenient for him?
[37:36.680 --> 37:38.720]  [SPEAKER_09]: I don't particularly like that very much.
[37:39.000 --> 37:44.800]  [SPEAKER_09]: People like him singling out hackers as being the cause for all these virus problems.
[37:45.060 --> 37:54.350]  [SPEAKER_09]: For all we know, he could be writing viruses, he could have someone writing viruses, just so he could add them to his list of viruses that his software can recognize and get rich off it in the process.
[37:54.350 --> 37:55.520]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, it could be anybody.
[37:55.780 --> 38:03.060]  [SPEAKER_01]: It could be anybody, your neighbor down the street, your own family perhaps.
[38:03.060 --> 38:04.640]  [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe the virus came from them.
[38:04.930 --> 38:05.760]  [SPEAKER_01]: There's no way to tell.
[38:06.000 --> 38:08.240]  [SPEAKER_01]: The important thing is how do you deal with it now that it's here.
[38:10.100 --> 38:16.950]  [SPEAKER_01]: Interesting thing that's happening, this is next week, is the 5th International Computer Virus and Security Conference.
[38:16.950 --> 38:25.180]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's in association with ACM, SIGSAC, CMA, COS, and IEEE-CS.
[38:26.140 --> 38:31.280]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's going to be happening March 11th through the 13th at the New York Marriott Marquis and Summit.
[38:31.780 --> 38:33.220]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's Thursday and...
[38:33.780 --> 38:34.680]  [SPEAKER_01]: Thursday and Friday.
[38:34.780 --> 38:36.060]  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know how they got three dates out of that.
[38:36.160 --> 38:38.350]  [SPEAKER_01]: Thursday and Friday, March 11th, 12th, and 13th.
[38:39.780 --> 38:42.520]  [SPEAKER_01]: Let's just say the 12th and the 13th and be done with it.
[38:42.890 --> 38:47.720]  [SPEAKER_01]: People who want information on that can call 800-835-2246, extension 190.
[38:48.620 --> 38:51.910]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm told I'm going to be on a panel there, and I think fiber optic is too.
[38:52.040 --> 38:53.580]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, I was told I was supposed to be on one too.
[38:53.700 --> 38:54.240]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, okay.
[38:54.350 --> 38:57.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, we'll find out what panels we'll be on, and maybe we'll even be on them.
[38:58.100 --> 38:58.720]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's happening.
[38:58.830 --> 39:04.760]  [SPEAKER_01]: And also, this Friday, 2600 meeting at the CityCorp Center in case you want to come down and see what hackers look like.
[39:04.910 --> 39:05.680]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, that's...
[39:05.680 --> 39:10.560]  [SPEAKER_01]: Every other law enforcement agency in town comes down to watch that, so you might as well join us.
[39:10.760 --> 39:15.480]  [SPEAKER_01]: 53rd Street, Lexington Avenue, CityCorp Center, the lobby area between 5pm and 8pm.
[39:15.800 --> 39:17.660]  [SPEAKER_01]: Monthly occurrence, first Friday of every month.
[39:17.800 --> 39:22.140]  [SPEAKER_01]: And also, we have a brand new copy of 2600 that has just come out.
[39:22.200 --> 39:23.260]  [SPEAKER_01]: You want to pitch one over here?
[39:23.330 --> 39:27.200]  [SPEAKER_01]: We'll run down what's in this exciting issue.
[39:27.260 --> 39:29.160]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's the winter issue which has just come out.
[39:29.910 --> 39:33.850]  [SPEAKER_01]: And since technically it is still winter, it's really not technically late.
[39:34.060 --> 39:34.740]  [SPEAKER_01]: Not yet, anyway.
[39:35.330 --> 39:40.660]  [SPEAKER_01]: There's all kinds of interesting things, including a piece on prison security.
[39:40.910 --> 39:43.520]  [SPEAKER_01]: The Federal Bureau of Prisons has a computer system.
[39:43.640 --> 39:44.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's known as Sentry.
[39:45.320 --> 39:47.560]  [SPEAKER_01]: And they've had some problems with security.
[39:47.560 --> 39:49.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: There's a piece on it as far as that goes.
[39:49.580 --> 39:54.480]  [SPEAKER_01]: People expressed an interest in the crypt source on Unix systems.
[39:54.770 --> 39:59.480]  [SPEAKER_01]: And inside 2600, you'll see a whole printout of the crypt source.
[40:00.250 --> 40:04.560]  [SPEAKER_01]: Also, some interesting frequencies, an update on the simplex lock situation.
[40:05.060 --> 40:09.180]  [SPEAKER_01]: And some treasures that were gotten from trashing.
[40:09.310 --> 40:13.680]  [SPEAKER_01]: Trashing is when people jump into dumpsters and get pieces of information.
[40:14.180 --> 40:21.680]  [SPEAKER_01]: Some people did that at a phone company that manufactures customer-owned coin-operated telephones, known as Cocots, those weird payphones you see on the street.
[40:22.100 --> 40:26.660]  [SPEAKER_01]: And got quite a bit of interesting information, including solid proof.
[40:26.790 --> 40:31.100]  [SPEAKER_01]: Solid proof that one of those long-distance companies is cheating people.
[40:31.480 --> 40:36.540]  [SPEAKER_01]: They're cheating people because when they call them, they call them collect.
[40:36.980 --> 40:39.180]  [SPEAKER_01]: They don't give the person the chance to say no.
[40:39.180 --> 40:43.870]  [SPEAKER_01]: They wait five seconds and if you don't hang up, you get charged.
[40:44.370 --> 40:45.080]  [SPEAKER_01]: Imagine that.
[40:45.270 --> 40:52.020]  [SPEAKER_01]: Imagine getting a call that says, Hang up within five seconds or we're going to start charging you for a collect call.
[40:52.290 --> 40:54.310]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now how would your answering machine handle that?
[40:54.430 --> 40:58.540]  [SPEAKER_01]: My answering machine doesn't handle that very well at all because it doesn't know when someone's telling it that.
[40:58.790 --> 41:03.890]  [SPEAKER_01]: So consequently, virtually every month, we get these weird charges.
[41:04.210 --> 41:06.020]  [SPEAKER_01]: And the company is called Integritel.
[41:06.020 --> 41:06.140]  [SPEAKER_01]: Integritel.
[41:06.770 --> 41:11.020]  [SPEAKER_01]: So if you see Integritel showing up on your phone bill, now you know why.
[41:11.270 --> 41:13.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's all in this latest issue, too.
[41:13.790 --> 41:20.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: So we'll be going over that in future weeks because there's a lot of weird things going on out there.
[41:21.450 --> 41:23.120]  [SPEAKER_01]: So enough of a plug for that.
[41:23.770 --> 41:26.960]  [SPEAKER_01]: In any event, our phone number is 212-279-3400.
[41:27.540 --> 41:31.500]  [SPEAKER_01]: Let's take some phone calls in the time we have left before the personal computer show starts.
[41:31.750 --> 41:36.950]  [SPEAKER_01]: People have questions about Michelangelo virus and how it affects them, what they should do.
[41:37.250 --> 41:37.910]  [SPEAKER_01]: Give us a call.
[41:38.120 --> 41:38.730]  [SPEAKER_01]: Good evening.
[41:38.870 --> 41:39.290]  [SPEAKER_01]: You're on the air.
[41:39.660 --> 41:40.040]  [SPEAKER_03]: Hi.
[41:40.290 --> 41:42.560]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I wanted to comment on the Michelangelo virus.
[41:43.140 --> 41:56.710]  [SPEAKER_03]: At the end of your discussion with Mr. Fiberoptic, you guys got to the point that I wanted to get to, which was, and I want to concur with you, there is no proof as to who initiated this virus, who started it.
[41:56.830 --> 42:11.370]  [SPEAKER_03]: And it certainly has earmarks that seem to me to raise certain suspicions as to its origin, namely the fact that advance notice of the virus essentially has been given.
[42:11.370 --> 42:20.830]  [SPEAKER_03]: In other words, you're told you have time to purchase the necessary software to protect yourself against this horrible virus.
[42:21.020 --> 42:26.890]  [SPEAKER_03]: And it has a catchy name and a date that is linked to the name.
[42:27.000 --> 42:32.430]  [SPEAKER_03]: So in other words, as a commercial enterprise, this seems to have...
[42:32.430 --> 42:37.580]  [SPEAKER_03]: If you want to take that or assume that that is the case, it would...
[42:37.580 --> 42:41.410]  [SPEAKER_03]: It seems like it's a well-planned type of venture, so to speak.
[42:41.520 --> 42:42.600]  [SPEAKER_01]: You raise a very good point.
[42:42.770 --> 42:46.960]  [SPEAKER_01]: And something else that I've been meaning to ask is, where did it get its name?
[42:46.980 --> 42:50.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, March 6 is when it's supposed to go crazy and destroy things.
[42:50.730 --> 42:54.460]  [SPEAKER_01]: But when was it ever actually called the Michelangelo virus?
[42:54.460 --> 42:55.560]  [SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't have a title.
[42:55.560 --> 42:57.730]  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think it's named within the source code.
[42:57.870 --> 42:59.310]  [SPEAKER_01]: Someone had to start calling it that.
[42:59.370 --> 43:00.600]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'd like to know where that started.
[43:00.600 --> 43:06.810]  [SPEAKER_03]: You know, it would be very interesting to backtrace exactly where and how it was discovered.
[43:06.960 --> 43:12.710]  [SPEAKER_03]: Because how are you going to find this virus if it isn't set off until March 6, anyway?
[43:12.830 --> 43:15.810]  [SPEAKER_03]: Even if it was on a disk of yours, how would you find out?
[43:15.910 --> 43:18.980]  [SPEAKER_03]: What would tip somebody off to its existence?
[43:19.700 --> 43:21.310]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, there's several ways.
[43:21.390 --> 43:23.540]  [SPEAKER_01]: One way is to run the program called CheckDisk.
[43:23.830 --> 43:26.560]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, that doesn't always work depending on your system.
[43:26.560 --> 43:35.180]  [SPEAKER_01]: But in most cases, if you have a standard PC kind of a system with 640K of RAM, you should get a number...
[43:35.180 --> 43:37.950]  [SPEAKER_01]: I believe the number is 655,360.
[43:38.730 --> 43:39.680]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's a bit much.
[43:40.080 --> 43:40.890]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's a bit much?
[43:41.020 --> 43:41.290]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.
[43:41.560 --> 43:42.040]  [SPEAKER_09]: There's...
[43:42.570 --> 43:47.620]  [SPEAKER_09]: That's the amount of memory you have, which is going to vary depending on the amount of memory you have total on your system.
[43:48.040 --> 43:48.900]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's always going to vary.
[43:48.900 --> 43:52.900]  [SPEAKER_01]: Most 640K systems come up with that number, 655,360.
[43:53.540 --> 43:57.480]  [SPEAKER_09]: Once DOS is loaded into your memory on your computer, it's going to be considerably less than that.
[43:57.560 --> 43:58.460]  [SPEAKER_09]: Oh, not the available memory.
[43:58.520 --> 43:59.210]  [SPEAKER_09]: The total memory.
[43:59.300 --> 44:00.040]  [SPEAKER_09]: Oh, the total memory.
[44:00.060 --> 44:00.360]  [SPEAKER_09]: Okay.
[44:00.660 --> 44:00.820]  [SPEAKER_09]: Right.
[44:01.020 --> 44:04.620]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, well, that's only going to be true with certain viruses that reserve memory.
[44:04.800 --> 44:07.960]  [SPEAKER_09]: For instance, the Pakistani brain virus does that.
[44:08.460 --> 44:11.270]  [SPEAKER_09]: Reserves some memory, a top memory, and installs itself there.
[44:12.060 --> 44:15.210]  [SPEAKER_09]: Michelangelo virus sits on the boot sector, so it's taking up no memory.
[44:15.210 --> 44:20.380]  [SPEAKER_09]: I'm at a slight disadvantage because I haven't myself been able to analyze the virus because I don't currently have a computer.
[44:20.680 --> 44:24.000]  [SPEAKER_09]: It seems every time I get one, the feds break into my house and steal it.
[44:24.780 --> 44:30.290]  [SPEAKER_09]: So I'm sure I'll be able to... I'll have all the time in the world to sit down and debug through it myself and have more answers then.
[44:30.400 --> 44:31.710]  [SPEAKER_01]: And we will be printing it.
[44:31.860 --> 44:34.140]  [SPEAKER_01]: We will be printing the source code in 2600.
[44:34.340 --> 44:39.100]  [SPEAKER_01]: So those people that want to see how it works exactly, just look forward to that.
[44:39.210 --> 44:40.600]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's going to be kind of interesting.
[44:40.600 --> 44:48.290]  [SPEAKER_03]: I just also wanted to mention that if you use debug, there must be a signature to this virus since it's on the boot sector.
[44:48.440 --> 44:53.660]  [SPEAKER_03]: You can actually, as FiberOptic knows, you can use debug to look at various sectors.
[44:54.000 --> 44:59.000]  [SPEAKER_03]: So you can actually read in the boot sector and look at it and dump it onto the screen.
[44:59.620 --> 45:06.270]  [SPEAKER_03]: And there must be some signature, in other words, some set of bytes or whatever, that you can tell whether or not you've got the virus.
[45:06.320 --> 45:12.230]  [SPEAKER_03]: And you don't need any programs if you know what to look for and how to use debug, which is really not too complicated.
[45:12.340 --> 45:22.080]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm told that if you do look at the boot sector, you don't see messages that say things like no operating system, which are standard MS-DOS error messages.
[45:22.080 --> 45:22.270]  [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[45:22.270 --> 45:23.480]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's where they reside.
[45:23.620 --> 45:25.420]  [SPEAKER_01]: If they're not there, that means they've been written over.
[45:25.600 --> 45:30.710]  [SPEAKER_01]: And that's one fairly easy way to find out if you have it, if you know how to use debug.
[45:30.940 --> 45:31.060]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yep.
[45:31.820 --> 45:32.820]  [SPEAKER_01]: Any other ways?
[45:33.540 --> 45:34.750]  [SPEAKER_09]: No, that's typically it.
[45:34.800 --> 45:45.270]  [SPEAKER_09]: I mean, with debug, you're on free will to load in any specific sector on the disk, sector being a 512-byte block, which is one logical sector on an MS-DOS disk.
[45:45.270 --> 45:48.750]  [SPEAKER_09]: You simply load in the first one on whatever drive you're looking at.
[45:49.210 --> 45:50.480]  [SPEAKER_09]: And if you have a copy,
[45:55.950 --> 46:04.130]  [SPEAKER_09]: provided that it's on from another disk, for instance, or from the same operating system, you could do a simple binary comparison.
[46:05.010 --> 46:07.550]  [SPEAKER_09]: Compare it with how it should look to what it looks like now.
[46:08.210 --> 46:13.910]  [SPEAKER_09]: And if you know what program code should be in your boot sector, and you see what's there and they don't match, you know that something's up.
[46:14.730 --> 46:15.670]  [SPEAKER_09]: Thanks very much for calling.
[46:15.670 --> 46:16.110]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, thanks.
[46:16.830 --> 46:22.470]  [SPEAKER_01]: And a good program, a good public domain program that's making the rounds is Scan86B.
[46:24.330 --> 46:30.290]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I believe Scan86B.zip is a zip file, and it turns into an assortment of scan programs.
[46:30.390 --> 46:36.010]  [SPEAKER_01]: And also Clean86B is the other one that will clean it up if you do have the virus on your system.
[46:36.410 --> 46:39.850]  [SPEAKER_01]: Those are available on various bulletin boards, including the well.
[46:40.390 --> 46:42.790]  [SPEAKER_01]: And be careful where you get it, though, because who knows?
[46:42.790 --> 46:45.490]  [SPEAKER_01]: Somebody could give you a copy that is actually a virus itself.
[46:45.670 --> 46:47.870]  [SPEAKER_01]: So the panic can spread even further.
[46:48.210 --> 46:49.470]  [SPEAKER_01]: I was thinking that, you know.
[46:49.570 --> 46:53.070]  [SPEAKER_01]: I haven't downloaded any software from a bulletin board in years.
[46:53.090 --> 46:59.050]  [SPEAKER_01]: And here, the one software that I might download is something to prevent the virus from hitting my system.
[46:59.170 --> 47:04.510]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, what a great trick that would be if you hit a virus inside that program that everybody wants to download now.
[47:05.050 --> 47:06.010]  [SPEAKER_01]: Something to think about.
[47:06.270 --> 47:06.910]  [SPEAKER_01]: Good evening.
[47:08.270 --> 47:09.830]  [SPEAKER_07]: Hey, hello, is this BAI?
[47:09.910 --> 47:10.490]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's what it is.
[47:10.550 --> 47:10.930]  [SPEAKER_01]: You're on the air.
[47:11.670 --> 47:13.550]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, this Fiboraptic guy.
[47:13.750 --> 47:14.770]  [SPEAKER_07]: What is with the virus?
[47:16.090 --> 47:16.670]  Fiboraptic guy.
[47:16.850 --> 47:20.590]  [SPEAKER_07]: No, listen, these hackers, okay, I think they should lock them up and throw the key.
[47:21.910 --> 47:22.850]  [SPEAKER_07]: Not a bastard!
[47:23.270 --> 47:24.250]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, okay, alright.
[47:24.670 --> 47:28.130]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, he has no seven seconds to hear his voice, but that's time for that.
[47:28.270 --> 47:28.670]  [SPEAKER_01]: Good morning.
[47:28.870 --> 47:29.450]  [SPEAKER_01]: Good evening, rather.
[47:30.650 --> 47:31.350]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, hi.
[47:31.470 --> 47:34.710]  [SPEAKER_08]: I, along with many of your other listeners, am concerned about the Michelangelo virus.
[47:35.350 --> 47:38.350]  [SPEAKER_08]: Now, how exactly does it determine, like, to strike on the 6th?
[47:38.510 --> 47:41.350]  [SPEAKER_08]: Does it do constant checks of the system time clock?
[47:41.570 --> 47:43.130]  [SPEAKER_08]: Or how exactly does it determine that?
[47:43.130 --> 47:48.270]  [SPEAKER_01]: I, the way I understand it, and Fiboraptic will correct me if I'm wrong, uh, when you boot up.
[47:48.510 --> 47:48.610]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[47:48.710 --> 47:55.570]  [SPEAKER_01]: If you boot up, and the date happens to be March 6th, it will go into action and destroy the data on the hard drive.
[47:55.730 --> 47:57.630]  [SPEAKER_01]: And, obviously, you don't have to do that more than once.
[47:57.630 --> 47:59.130]  [SPEAKER_08]: So, would it be possible to do on?
[47:59.310 --> 47:59.870]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, it would.
[47:59.950 --> 48:00.670]  [SPEAKER_01]: I know what you're going to ask.
[48:00.730 --> 48:05.750]  [SPEAKER_01]: You're going to ask if it's possible to leave your computer on, and not boot up, or not turn it on and off, and bypass it that way.
[48:05.810 --> 48:09.430]  [SPEAKER_01]: That is possible, although, you'll have to worry about it next year, too, on March 6th.
[48:09.630 --> 48:14.350]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, and, I mean, I guess there is always the potential that it might, uh, check for any date after the 6th.
[48:14.410 --> 48:15.410]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, I was...
[48:15.410 --> 48:17.190]  [SPEAKER_08]: The initial date, and then it'll just check in.
[48:17.290 --> 48:23.230]  [SPEAKER_01]: I was theorizing that, uh, how hard would it be to simply change the date in the code, and make it any date you want?
[48:23.230 --> 48:27.390]  [SPEAKER_01]: Or, even worse, randomize, and make a, you know, a different date for every computer.
[48:27.390 --> 48:29.690]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, you have this virus, but you don't know when it's going to go off.
[48:29.910 --> 48:30.370]  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, there's really...
[48:30.370 --> 48:32.510]  [SPEAKER_08]: That would make it a little bit more difficult to eliminate now.
[48:32.670 --> 48:36.570]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, like the first caller said, it's remarkably well-publicized, remarkably simple.
[48:37.150 --> 48:37.390]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh-huh.
[48:37.410 --> 48:38.430]  [SPEAKER_01]: Almost as if it was planned.
[48:39.010 --> 48:39.170]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yep.
[48:40.090 --> 48:50.530]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, uh, if, if, uh, you're familiar with, uh, the way Michelangelo is, and how it works, uh, you'll notice that the theme is pretty much exactly the same as the, uh, original Friday the 13th virus.
[48:50.830 --> 48:50.990]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh-huh.
[48:50.990 --> 49:01.550]  [SPEAKER_09]: A simple boot sector virus infects a machine in the boot sector, and it's set to go off at a specific date, and all it really does is destroy data on the machine, which is all the Michelangelo virus does.
[49:01.670 --> 49:02.450]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's nothing new.
[49:02.630 --> 49:04.370]  [SPEAKER_09]: I don't know why people are getting all excited.
[49:04.370 --> 49:07.390]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's just, uh, it's just an old virus with a new name.
[49:07.530 --> 49:11.910]  [SPEAKER_01]: The best way to protect yourself is to do what you should have been doing all along, and keeping backups.
[49:12.230 --> 49:12.350]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh-huh.
[49:12.350 --> 49:15.930]  [SPEAKER_01]: Both, uh, both printed backups and, uh, floppy backups as well.
[49:16.470 --> 49:18.730]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, it's, it's the most basic thing you can do.
[49:18.730 --> 49:21.730]  [SPEAKER_01]: And, uh, a good friend of mine said this once, and it's true.
[49:21.870 --> 49:23.610]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's one of the truest things you can ever say.
[49:24.030 --> 49:26.430]  [SPEAKER_01]: Every disk will crash at some point.
[49:26.590 --> 49:28.230]  [SPEAKER_01]: Every hard disk is going to crash.
[49:28.710 --> 49:29.810]  [SPEAKER_01]: Nothing lasts forever.
[49:29.810 --> 49:33.070]  [SPEAKER_01]: So you better be prepared for that fateful day when something bad does happen.
[49:33.130 --> 49:33.970]  [SPEAKER_01]: It might be a virus.
[49:34.150 --> 49:35.190]  [SPEAKER_01]: It might be something else.
[49:35.330 --> 49:36.570]  [SPEAKER_01]: It might be a spike in electricity.
[49:36.870 --> 49:39.170]  [SPEAKER_01]: It, it might just be, you know, your number is up.
[49:39.170 --> 49:39.710]  [SPEAKER_01]: Who knows?
[49:39.970 --> 49:43.870]  [SPEAKER_01]: But, if you want to be prepared for that, make a, make a backup, make several backups.
[49:44.350 --> 49:45.010]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay, thanks a lot.
[49:45.150 --> 49:45.590]  [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for calling.
[49:45.810 --> 49:45.910]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yep.
[49:47.110 --> 49:48.470]  [SPEAKER_01]: 212-279-3400.
[49:48.590 --> 49:49.630]  [SPEAKER_01]: The program is off the hook.
[49:49.770 --> 49:57.250]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm Emmanuel Goldstein here with FiberOptic talking about the Michelangelo virus, and the discussion will be continuing throughout the personal computer show at 10 o'clock.
[49:57.830 --> 49:58.310]  [SPEAKER_01]: Good evening.
[49:58.310 --> 49:59.190]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, hi.
[49:59.610 --> 50:09.150]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's actually a little easier to get a boot sector virus than you guys suggested before because, think of all the times you've unintentionally booted from a floppy.
[50:09.430 --> 50:19.210]  [SPEAKER_04]: You know, you, you leave it in there, you forget it's there, you, your computer crashes, or you turn it off and turn it on again, and, or you reboot, and you've booted from a floppy.
[50:20.070 --> 50:23.630]  [SPEAKER_01]: I think most, most times you, you, you wind up not booting from the floppy.
[50:23.750 --> 50:25.210]  [SPEAKER_01]: It just says no system or something like that.
[50:25.210 --> 50:25.590]  [SPEAKER_04]: Right, no, no.
[50:25.590 --> 50:29.130]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, you see, I'm saying you accidentally, you've, you've copied a couple of files from the floppy.
[50:29.590 --> 50:31.950]  [SPEAKER_04]: You, you just leave it there, you forget it's there, right?
[50:32.150 --> 50:34.650]  [SPEAKER_04]: And, and then your computer crashes for any reason.
[50:35.190 --> 50:38.150]  [SPEAKER_04]: You reboot, and you've just booted from a floppy.
[50:38.150 --> 50:39.170]  [SPEAKER_01]: If the floppy is bootable.
[50:39.550 --> 50:40.310]  [SPEAKER_04]: No, no, no.
[50:40.530 --> 50:42.590]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's a, it's gonna look on your boot sec.
[50:42.730 --> 50:45.530]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's gonna look on your floppy drive first.
[50:45.970 --> 50:46.370]  [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[50:46.570 --> 50:48.470]  [SPEAKER_01]: But it's not going to boot unless the floppy is bootable.
[50:48.490 --> 50:49.710]  [SPEAKER_04]: No, but it's already gotten the virus.
[50:49.930 --> 50:50.530]  [SPEAKER_09]: No, no, no.
[50:50.630 --> 50:51.730]  [SPEAKER_09]: I think you're misunderstanding.
[50:52.330 --> 50:56.490]  [SPEAKER_09]: If a floppy disk is not bootable, there's a dummy boot sector written there.
[50:56.670 --> 50:56.910]  [SPEAKER_09]: Right.
[50:56.990 --> 50:57.770]  [SPEAKER_04]: And that's where it goes.
[50:57.990 --> 50:58.710]  [SPEAKER_04]: So you've gotten it.
[50:58.750 --> 51:01.130]  [SPEAKER_09]: It doesn't do anything unless it boots the disk.
[51:01.450 --> 51:03.870]  [SPEAKER_04]: No, no, you've gotten it because it's looking at that place.
[51:03.870 --> 51:05.250]  [SPEAKER_04]: You're talking about the dummy boot sector.
[51:05.350 --> 51:05.910]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's where it is.
[51:06.350 --> 51:06.510]  [SPEAKER_09]: Right.
[51:06.710 --> 51:13.610]  [SPEAKER_04]: So once you've rebooted, you know, with that floppy in there that you forgot about, you've got the, uh, virus.
[51:14.090 --> 51:19.270]  [SPEAKER_09]: Viruses usually attach themselves to the boot sector, not rewrite it completely.
[51:19.550 --> 51:19.990]  [SPEAKER_04]: Right.
[51:19.990 --> 51:22.170]  [SPEAKER_04]: And that's, that's what, that's where it goes.
[51:22.310 --> 51:22.910]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's what it does.
[51:23.450 --> 51:30.830]  [SPEAKER_04]: When, when you turn, when you turn it on the computer, the first thing it does is look in your floppy drive for a bootable disk.
[51:31.090 --> 51:31.510]  [SPEAKER_09]: I understand that.
[51:31.730 --> 51:32.990]  [SPEAKER_09]: You're missing the point.
[51:33.190 --> 51:40.270]  [SPEAKER_09]: The Michelangelo virus attaches itself after a valid boot sector on the end of the code that normally boots up a disk.
[51:40.490 --> 51:42.550]  [SPEAKER_09]: If there's none there already, i.e.
[51:42.550 --> 51:53.510]  [SPEAKER_09]: if the disk is not bootable, because it has a dummy boot sector, Michelangelo will attach itself to a dummy boot sector, which will be run when you put the disk in, which will say no system.
[51:53.730 --> 51:55.070]  [SPEAKER_09]: And the disk won't boot anyway.
[51:55.890 --> 51:59.250]  [SPEAKER_04]: But I'm pretty sure that it actually has that.
[51:59.350 --> 52:00.270]  [SPEAKER_04]: It makes that.
[52:00.770 --> 52:02.370]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's booting from that.
[52:02.490 --> 52:03.750]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's making a boot sector.
[52:04.110 --> 52:07.050]  [SPEAKER_01]: Are we talking about, are we talking about just this virus or...
[52:07.050 --> 52:09.650]  [SPEAKER_04]: As a matter of fact, I don't even know about Michelangelo.
[52:09.710 --> 52:11.210]  [SPEAKER_04]: I've had experience with a different one.
[52:11.410 --> 52:13.950]  [SPEAKER_04]: But my guess is it's probably the same way.
[52:14.390 --> 52:14.870]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh huh.
[52:15.330 --> 52:25.870]  [SPEAKER_04]: That, you know, once you've, once you've just booted accidentally from that floppy, with or without, uh, command come or anything like that, uh, you've gotten it.
[52:26.510 --> 52:28.670]  [SPEAKER_04]: So, you know, you do have to check for it.
[52:29.550 --> 52:30.010]  [SPEAKER_09]: Okay.
[52:30.010 --> 52:37.350]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, uh, I don't know if you know assembly language on the, uh, PC, but I suggest you go into debug and read in a boot sector and disassemble it.
[52:37.850 --> 52:39.530]  [SPEAKER_09]: And you'll probably see what I'm talking about.
[52:39.850 --> 52:44.970]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, I know what you mean, but what I'm saying is I suspect that it probably fakes it out.
[52:45.130 --> 52:46.170]  [SPEAKER_04]: It thinks it's booting.
[52:46.370 --> 52:48.150]  [SPEAKER_09]: It can do whatever it wants to do.
[52:48.230 --> 52:48.390]  [SPEAKER_09]: Right.
[52:48.590 --> 52:54.830]  [SPEAKER_09]: What I'm simply stating is that, to my knowledge, it attaches itself to a valid boot sector instead of replacing it in its entirety.
[52:54.830 --> 52:59.450]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, before we, before we lead the rest of our audience, uh, into, uh, slumberland here.
[52:59.970 --> 53:07.110]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, well, uh, we're going to get back to the basics of, of viruses and, uh, and how it affects people who just have PCs and aren't master programmers.
[53:07.390 --> 53:13.030]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, but in any case, it does pay to, uh, to, uh, scan your disk anyway, even if you don't think you've booted from a floppy.
[53:13.290 --> 53:13.430]  [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[53:13.670 --> 53:14.410]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, it can happen.
[53:14.570 --> 53:16.430]  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, it can be an educational experience, no question.
[53:16.530 --> 53:17.050]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's right.
[53:17.370 --> 53:17.910]  [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for calling.
[53:18.210 --> 53:18.270]  Okay.
[53:19.090 --> 53:19.810]  [SPEAKER_01]: 279-3400.
[53:20.290 --> 53:20.830]  [SPEAKER_01]: Good evening.
[53:21.890 --> 53:22.250]  279-3400.
[53:22.250 --> 53:22.590]  [SPEAKER_01]: Good evening.
[53:22.770 --> 53:22.930]  [SPEAKER_01]: Go ahead.
[53:24.830 --> 53:25.270]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[53:25.570 --> 53:35.090]  [SPEAKER_02]: The, the, uh, just a couple more questions about, I agree with most of what you're saying about the actual impetus as to why the, you know, viruses exist.
[53:35.090 --> 53:42.370]  [SPEAKER_02]: I, I really do feel that they do much more good for commercial, uh, software producers than they do for hackers.
[53:42.990 --> 53:48.190]  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, the only reason a hacker would do it is if he just feels vindictive or egotistical or whatever it is.
[53:48.190 --> 53:56.830]  [SPEAKER_02]: Most hackers are spending time breaking code, uh, trying to, you know, like get copy-protected programs to work and so on that I know of.
[53:57.410 --> 54:11.190]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, but in any case, uh, on the Michelangelo, uh, do you know, in terms of the symptoms, would it be that, uh, the virus would not only destroy, let's say, the sea, or does it, it doesn't only affect the fat table, I take it.
[54:11.190 --> 54:17.350]  [SPEAKER_02]: It will, let's say, format a disk, or what is it in actually doing in the destruction of the data?
[54:17.610 --> 54:20.170]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, how it operates essentially, what is it, you know?
[54:20.870 --> 54:21.270]  [SPEAKER_02]: Hello?
[54:21.570 --> 54:33.470]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, as, as far as I know, it's just gonna go and try to format the entire drive, which, uh, will result in the systematic destruction of the fat table and so on and so forth, sequentially through the entire disk drive.
[54:33.470 --> 54:33.730]  [SPEAKER_09]: I understand.
[54:34.170 --> 54:46.830]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, understood, but, uh, okay, now, let's say, uh, in terms of backup, let's say I have, uh, I don't even use IBMs for my main machines, but, you know, like it's, it worries almost everyone, you know, even though if we, let's say we are hackers, we know this stuff,
[54:46.930 --> 54:53.950]  [SPEAKER_02]: you know, and all of a sudden, you know, somewhere along the line, there is a disk that you may have gotten or whatever it is that might have been infected.
[54:54.290 --> 54:54.450]  [SPEAKER_06]: Right.
[54:54.810 --> 55:01.250]  [SPEAKER_02]: In whatever period of time you've been dealing with, or if you've downloaded, et cetera, et cetera, as we go through this paranoia shtick.
[55:01.610 --> 55:01.710]  [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[55:01.710 --> 55:11.810]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, but, uh, question is like this, do you know if it also will go, let's say, D drive, E drive, F drive, et cetera, et cetera, all the way through your system, or will it only go on your boot disk?
[55:12.250 --> 55:13.430]  [SPEAKER_09]: Uh, specifically, I don't know.
[55:13.550 --> 55:17.430]  [SPEAKER_09]: I would assume that it's only gonna install itself on a disk that is, in fact, bootable.
[55:17.910 --> 55:18.190]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh-huh.
[55:18.310 --> 55:19.170]  [SPEAKER_02]: The thing that I think...
[55:19.170 --> 55:21.390]  [SPEAKER_02]: Will it start to, you know, like, look for drives?
[55:21.530 --> 55:23.930]  [SPEAKER_02]: In other words, you know, it's not that sophisticated.
[55:24.390 --> 55:26.190]  [SPEAKER_09]: Specifically with Michelangelo, I don't know.
[55:26.330 --> 55:29.030]  [SPEAKER_09]: With other, uh, boot sector viruses, this is the case.
[55:29.030 --> 55:31.990]  [SPEAKER_09]: It tries to install itself on any disk it can find.
[55:32.190 --> 55:36.930]  [SPEAKER_01]: And while you say that's not too sophisticated, that's, that's, you know, while that, you say it's not that sophisticated...
[55:36.930 --> 55:48.690]  [SPEAKER_02]: I would say a sophisticated time bomb or so, or any, any, uh, any viruses like this would, would, would basically go and look and see what you've got in the system and then go wipe out if it was that, you know, sophisticated.
[55:48.990 --> 55:49.650]  [SPEAKER_02]: If it only got...
[55:49.650 --> 55:54.570]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's a fairly simple thing to, you know, modify a virus to look for a couple of extra drives.
[55:54.950 --> 56:03.270]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I'm just asking, you know, like if you really do know what it's, you know, what it's, you know, protocol, you know, what it's...
[56:05.050 --> 56:07.730]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I haven't actually had this on a system of mine.
[56:07.730 --> 56:15.590]  [SPEAKER_01]: I hope it stays that way, but I have seen lots of disagreement in the computer world as to just what it is capable of doing.
[56:15.710 --> 56:18.590]  [SPEAKER_01]: Some people can't even get it straight as far as what kind of computers it affects.
[56:18.590 --> 56:24.210]  [SPEAKER_01]: Some people were saying it affects Xenix computers, which is not true at all, unless you boot off an MS-DOS machine to start with.
[56:24.290 --> 56:26.710]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, you know, tell me if you don't disagree.
[56:26.790 --> 56:34.590]  [SPEAKER_02]: The most troublesome of the boot block viruses, and let's say on the Amiga, which I use, or in Macs, I use Amigas more exclusively.
[56:34.890 --> 56:36.150]  [SPEAKER_02]: We have boot and ROM.
[56:38.290 --> 56:40.350]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm afraid we're out of time, unfortunately.
[56:40.350 --> 56:41.990]  [SPEAKER_01]: We're going to have to get back to this question a little later.
[56:43.230 --> 56:44.350]  [SPEAKER_01]: Personal Computer Show is next.
[56:44.370 --> 56:47.390]  [SPEAKER_01]: We're going to be continuing this discussion throughout the Personal Computer Show.
[56:47.390 --> 56:56.410]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, I'm Emmanuel Gullstein, Fiber Optic, and myself will be remaining in the background, and be answering some more questions, and bringing up some more topics.
[56:56.730 --> 56:57.690]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, keep listening.
[56:58.170 --> 57:00.870]  [SPEAKER_01]: And we'll be back again next week for another edition of Off the Hook.