Off The Hook - 1992-03-25

[00:03.200 --> 00:05.320]  [SPEAKER_09]: I'm the boys as candidates for hanging.
[00:05.960 --> 00:10.000]  [SPEAKER_09]: The first time any one of you makes a wrong move, I'm going to kill a whole lot of you.
[00:10.280 --> 00:13.140]  [SPEAKER_09]: And to bring new vitality to every explosive chapter.
[00:13.480 --> 00:21.200]  [SPEAKER_09]: To capture for you the stark realism of people who love so deeply, hate so fiercely, live so recklessly.
[00:22.340 --> 00:24.400]  [SPEAKER_01]: All mixed up with Peter Beauchamp.
[00:24.640 --> 00:27.820]  [SPEAKER_01]: Monday mornings at 9.30, here on WBAI.
[00:36.900 --> 00:38.900]  [SPEAKER_04]: Hey, I can't find that one on the radio.
[00:39.020 --> 00:39.900]  [SPEAKER_04]: Radio Free Pittsburgh.
[00:42.080 --> 00:43.660]  [SPEAKER_08]: Turn on the trip.
[00:45.140 --> 00:47.340]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, I'm all mixed up, you know.
[00:47.700 --> 00:49.340]  [SPEAKER_16]: I can't see how everything is happening.
[00:50.560 --> 00:57.100]  [SPEAKER_10]: I want your soul to enter those microphones.
[01:00.510 --> 01:04.070]  [SPEAKER_10]: Like ghosts in the homes of our listeners.
[01:05.470 --> 01:08.030]  [SPEAKER_10]: There's an army of them out there.
[01:08.850 --> 01:10.110]  [SPEAKER_10]: Broken linemen.
[01:10.930 --> 01:12.290]  [SPEAKER_10]: Toiling in the darkness.
[01:13.130 --> 01:13.710]  [SPEAKER_10]: Waiting.
[01:14.650 --> 01:15.570]  [SPEAKER_10]: For what?
[01:16.210 --> 01:17.130]  [SPEAKER_10]: For you.
[01:18.720 --> 01:24.330]  [SPEAKER_10]: For your incandescent, brilliant, palpitating talent.
[01:26.450 --> 01:28.850]  [SPEAKER_01]: All mixed up with Peter Beauchamp.
[01:29.090 --> 01:32.230]  [SPEAKER_01]: Monday mornings at 9.30, here on WBAI.
[01:37.330 --> 01:38.530]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's 9 o'clock.
[01:39.070 --> 01:41.130]  [SPEAKER_14]: On WBAI New York.
[01:41.550 --> 01:42.930]  [SPEAKER_14]: Time for Off the Hook.
[01:49.560 --> 01:51.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: The telephone keeps ringing.
[01:52.020 --> 01:54.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: So I ripped it off the wall.
[01:55.000 --> 01:57.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: I cut myself while shaving.
[01:57.640 --> 01:59.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now I can't make a cough.
[02:00.500 --> 02:02.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: It couldn't get much worse.
[02:03.000 --> 02:04.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: But if they could, they would.
[02:05.220 --> 02:07.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: Bumbin' me, bum, for the best to expect the worst.
[02:08.460 --> 02:10.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: I hope that's understood.
[02:10.600 --> 02:11.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: Bumbin' me, bum!
[02:32.270 --> 02:34.850]  [SPEAKER_14]: And a good evening to everybody out there.
[02:35.130 --> 02:36.410]  [SPEAKER_14]: The program is off the hook.
[02:36.630 --> 02:37.950]  [SPEAKER_14]: This is Emmanuel Goldstein.
[02:40.590 --> 02:47.750]  [SPEAKER_14]: And it's a rather special edition of this program because there's a good chance that it's the last one.
[02:51.510 --> 03:02.430]  [SPEAKER_14]: We'll fill you in on what we know so far and invite your phone calls and talk about the things that we've been talking about here in this slot now for, I guess, over a year.
[03:03.570 --> 03:11.990]  [SPEAKER_14]: Technology, in the eyes of the individual, abuses of technology, at the hands of those in charge.
[03:14.790 --> 03:19.270]  [SPEAKER_14]: Perhaps there's a subtle irony here that's going way above my head.
[03:23.700 --> 03:25.480]  [SPEAKER_14]: We'll see if we can figure it out together.
[03:31.990 --> 03:34.690]  [SPEAKER_14]: To start with, what is going on here?
[03:34.970 --> 03:43.290]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, as of next week, according to some people around here, this show is not going to be on anymore.
[03:43.290 --> 03:45.530]  [SPEAKER_14]: And we don't have any more details other than that.
[03:45.650 --> 03:47.650]  [SPEAKER_14]: There's been no official notification of any sort.
[03:49.190 --> 03:57.550]  [SPEAKER_14]: And not to get into any kind of internal things here at the radio station because that's not a very good thing to do, I don't think.
[03:57.970 --> 04:02.890]  [SPEAKER_14]: Other than that, I'll just say that I'm not exactly ecstatic about this.
[04:03.970 --> 04:08.170]  [SPEAKER_14]: Welcome your phone calls, letters, whatever you want to do.
[04:08.590 --> 04:11.910]  [SPEAKER_14]: Our phone number here is 212-279-3400.
[04:11.910 --> 04:19.710]  [SPEAKER_14]: However, if you choose to call during the day to ask just what in the world is going on, the number is 212-279-0707.
[04:19.710 --> 04:22.750]  [SPEAKER_14]: I've called it many times in the past couple of weeks.
[04:23.090 --> 04:28.770]  [SPEAKER_14]: And our address is WBAI, 505 8th Avenue, New York, New York, 10018.
[04:30.590 --> 04:31.770]  [SPEAKER_14]: More on that later.
[04:32.710 --> 04:36.270]  [SPEAKER_14]: For the moment, though, let's take a look at what's been going on in the world.
[04:36.270 --> 04:55.110]  [SPEAKER_14]: From the Rocky Mountain News of March 17, 1992, a computer hacker who pleaded guilty to breaking into NASA computer systems as has been ordered to undergo mental health treatment and not use computers without permission from a probation officer.
[04:55.250 --> 05:07.270]  [SPEAKER_14]: Same old thing that we've been going over for months, years, in fact, where people who play with computers a little bit too much are looked upon as unhealthy and a threat to society.
[05:07.930 --> 05:12.670]  [SPEAKER_14]: Some of the worst things ever to be unleashed upon the average people of the world.
[05:13.170 --> 05:19.090]  [SPEAKER_14]: Richard Whitman, 24 years old, of Lakewood, Colorado, was sentenced to three years probation by Denver U.S.
[05:19.430 --> 05:25.010]  [SPEAKER_14]: District Judge Sherman Finesilver in a rare prosecution for breaking into a computer system.
[05:25.050 --> 05:26.410]  [SPEAKER_14]: Actually, I don't know what's so rare about it.
[05:26.470 --> 05:29.390]  [SPEAKER_14]: There have been quite a few over the past few years.
[05:30.270 --> 05:36.210]  [SPEAKER_14]: Whitman pleaded guilty last fall to one count of breaking into a National Aeronautics and Space Administration computer.
[05:37.090 --> 05:40.590]  [SPEAKER_14]: Prosecutors said Whitman had spent four years trying to get into computer systems.
[05:40.590 --> 05:42.450]  [SPEAKER_14]: He must not be a very good hacker.
[05:43.030 --> 05:46.110]  [SPEAKER_14]: It took him four years to get into a computer system.
[05:47.050 --> 05:54.110]  [SPEAKER_14]: I've spent, you know, this is not meant to be a confession or anything like that, but I've spent a fair amount of time inside some NASA systems myself.
[05:54.270 --> 05:59.270]  [SPEAKER_14]: Believe me, it doesn't take all that long to figure it all out.
[05:59.870 --> 06:03.150]  [SPEAKER_14]: The important thing is, what did this person do once he was inside?
[06:03.170 --> 06:04.370]  [SPEAKER_14]: Did he destroy things?
[06:04.490 --> 06:06.030]  [SPEAKER_14]: Did he sell things to...
[06:06.030 --> 06:07.270]  [SPEAKER_14]: Who's our enemy this week?
[06:07.350 --> 06:07.710]  [SPEAKER_14]: Libyans?
[06:08.370 --> 06:08.730]  [SPEAKER_14]: Iraqis?
[06:08.870 --> 06:09.190]  [SPEAKER_14]: I don't know.
[06:09.350 --> 06:11.910]  [SPEAKER_14]: Did he sell things to our enemies, wherever they may be?
[06:12.450 --> 06:13.970]  [SPEAKER_14]: Did he profit in any way?
[06:14.170 --> 06:21.910]  [SPEAKER_14]: Or did he just log in and say, Hey, I got in, and now I guess I'll go to jail or be on probation for three years and consider it a mental health risk?
[06:23.050 --> 06:29.030]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, he admitted gaining access to NASA's computer via a malfunction in a bulletin board service.
[06:29.770 --> 06:30.370]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay.
[06:32.710 --> 06:37.250]  [SPEAKER_14]: Actually, I had a little visit with NASA this past week down in Washington, D.C.
[06:37.350 --> 06:40.430]  [SPEAKER_14]: They have offices in a particular area of town.
[06:40.610 --> 06:43.590]  [SPEAKER_14]: And guess what they use as protection against physical entry?
[06:43.770 --> 06:44.670]  [SPEAKER_14]: Simplex locks.
[06:45.010 --> 06:47.870]  [SPEAKER_14]: And, of course, those are incredibly simple to get through.
[06:48.450 --> 06:52.050]  [SPEAKER_14]: I won't say how easy it was, but let's just say it's pretty easy.
[06:52.310 --> 06:59.550]  [SPEAKER_14]: And if computers aren't your thing, well, then locks might be the next best thing for people that are into exploration.
[07:00.710 --> 07:08.970]  [SPEAKER_14]: On page B3 of the March 17th Los Angeles Times, there's an article by Hugo Martins headlined Security Upgraded at Airport.
[07:09.610 --> 07:11.410]  [SPEAKER_14]: And it's along the same vein.
[07:11.570 --> 07:26.470]  [SPEAKER_14]: It reports that Burbank Airport, which is one of Los Angeles' smaller airports, They're going to install an $83,000 electronic locking system to meet FAA requirements for more stringent control of access to non-public areas.
[07:26.590 --> 07:28.690]  [SPEAKER_14]: Sounds kind of like a Simplex situation here.
[07:28.850 --> 07:32.530]  [SPEAKER_14]: The system will replace current key and combination locks.
[07:32.830 --> 07:35.730]  [SPEAKER_14]: Airport employees will get badges with mag stripes.
[07:35.910 --> 07:42.350]  [SPEAKER_14]: Doors will be unlocked by a computer when authorized personnel swipe their cards through readers adjacent to the doors.
[07:42.350 --> 07:51.870]  [SPEAKER_14]: The system will allow for giving or revoking authorization on short notice and for conditioning authorization on time of day or week.
[07:52.290 --> 07:53.330]  [SPEAKER_14]: All kinds of things like that.
[07:53.530 --> 08:02.670]  [SPEAKER_14]: The new system also records each employee's use of a door, allowing airport officials to determine which employees were present in a secured area at a given time.
[08:03.090 --> 08:05.010]  [SPEAKER_14]: Computer, locate Captain Picard.
[08:05.090 --> 08:05.970]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's all possible.
[08:06.430 --> 08:07.650]  [SPEAKER_14]: Everything is possible.
[08:07.770 --> 08:08.210]  [SPEAKER_14]: Risks.
[08:08.410 --> 08:09.210]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, what are the risks?
[08:09.210 --> 08:12.570]  [SPEAKER_14]: The usual, insufficiently thought-out system.
[08:12.630 --> 08:16.910]  [SPEAKER_14]: By the way, this comes from Mark Seacoff off the Risks Digest electronic newsletter.
[08:17.290 --> 08:30.110]  [SPEAKER_14]: The system will not, in fact, provide a good record of which people were in a secured area at a given time because the doors aren't being changed and people can pass through them without authorization when they're opened by other people.
[08:30.510 --> 08:34.130]  [SPEAKER_14]: Also, it's very easy to duplicate the mag stripes on the cards.
[08:34.130 --> 08:42.590]  [SPEAKER_14]: A photo with the story suggests that a combination passcode could be required along with the card, but the story doesn't mention if this is actually done.
[08:43.670 --> 08:45.350]  [SPEAKER_14]: Let's talk about bank robbery.
[08:45.630 --> 08:57.690]  [SPEAKER_14]: An electronics expert stole more than 17,000 pounds in a high-tech robbery spree, plundering dozens of accounts from automatic cash dispensers at banks, according to Paisley Scotland Sheriff Court.
[08:57.690 --> 09:01.690]  [SPEAKER_14]: But Clydesdale bank chiefs claimed their dispensing system was foolproof.
[09:02.130 --> 09:07.930]  [SPEAKER_14]: And I guess that means no fools could have done this, but somebody with half an intellect was able to.
[09:08.630 --> 09:14.890]  [SPEAKER_14]: They told angry customers that members of their own households must have been responsible for making withdrawals without their knowledge.
[09:15.130 --> 09:17.050]  [SPEAKER_14]: No way could it be our fault.
[09:17.610 --> 09:29.030]  [SPEAKER_14]: Anthony Pratt, 32 years old, a bank engineer, used a handheld computer inside bank premises to record transactions being made by customers at hole-in-the-wall machines outside.
[09:29.250 --> 09:35.250]  [SPEAKER_14]: He recorded the customer's secret number and later used it on plastic cards he made with magnetic strips.
[09:35.750 --> 09:42.010]  [SPEAKER_14]: Pratt of East Kilbride was finally arrested after he took cash from a machine in Glasgow.
[09:42.410 --> 09:46.230]  [SPEAKER_14]: He admitted conspiracy to rob and also robbery.
[09:46.230 --> 09:50.690]  [SPEAKER_14]: Sentence was deferred for reports until April 2nd.
[09:51.790 --> 09:56.610]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay, now how about some technical blunders of a spectacular sort.
[09:57.070 --> 10:06.650]  [SPEAKER_14]: One of the San Diego off-airport parking outfits gave Tsutomu Shimura a time-in ticket dated February 30th.
[10:06.890 --> 10:08.690]  [SPEAKER_14]: You can guess the real date.
[10:09.220 --> 10:17.410]  [SPEAKER_14]: He says, When I returned to retrieve my car on March 6th, I was presented with a demand for $3,771.
[10:18.110 --> 10:23.270]  [SPEAKER_14]: That's at $11 a day and $1 an hour.
[10:24.790 --> 10:29.510]  [SPEAKER_14]: That had to be paid before he was allowed to leave the lot.
[10:29.750 --> 10:33.990]  [SPEAKER_14]: The garage attendant decided that this wasn't quite right.
[10:34.270 --> 10:40.270]  [SPEAKER_14]: He re-entered the date into his computer and was again told that I had to pay $3,771.
[10:40.270 --> 10:43.430]  [SPEAKER_14]: At this point, the manager was called for help.
[10:43.850 --> 10:46.750]  [SPEAKER_14]: The exit line was getting extremely long.
[10:47.730 --> 10:52.550]  [SPEAKER_14]: I have a receipt here for $3,771 for parking.
[10:52.810 --> 10:56.010]  [SPEAKER_14]: The travel accounting people are going to have fun with this one.
[10:57.370 --> 10:58.290]  [SPEAKER_14]: Oh yes.
[10:58.490 --> 11:10.030]  [SPEAKER_14]: Meanwhile, according to San Jose Mercury News, Britain has just announced that makers of electrical appliances in that country must begin attaching plugs to the ends of electrical cords.
[11:11.810 --> 11:12.950]  [SPEAKER_14]: This is serious here.
[11:13.050 --> 11:20.970]  [SPEAKER_14]: Britons, for we don't know how long, have been required to buy plugs and attach them to their new toasters, irons, and electrical what-have-yous.
[11:21.090 --> 11:23.930]  [SPEAKER_14]: But now, the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents...
[11:25.310 --> 11:27.050]  [SPEAKER_14]: This is not dated April 1st, either.
[11:27.130 --> 11:27.550]  [SPEAKER_14]: This is real.
[11:28.050 --> 11:41.090]  [SPEAKER_14]: The Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents, only in England, citing its research into the matter, says, It was surprised to learn that it is common practice everywhere else in the world to sell electrical goods with a plug attached.
[11:41.650 --> 11:45.150]  [SPEAKER_14]: So, England once again enters the Renaissance era.
[11:45.870 --> 11:47.890]  [SPEAKER_14]: Now, this is an Internet story.
[11:48.090 --> 11:53.910]  [SPEAKER_14]: For those of you familiar with the Internet, it's that wonderful network that connects computers all over the world.
[11:54.310 --> 12:00.670]  [SPEAKER_14]: On our Internet gateways, according to Steve Belavin, we run a variety of security monitors.
[12:00.970 --> 12:07.130]  [SPEAKER_14]: Among other things, these detect attempts to connect to services that are generally of no legitimate interest to outsiders.
[12:07.510 --> 12:10.410]  [SPEAKER_14]: But the alarm that went off the other day was a bit different.
[12:10.690 --> 12:13.890]  [SPEAKER_14]: The services contacted weren't the usual targets.
[12:14.130 --> 12:16.110]  [SPEAKER_14]: The answer turned out to be fairly interesting.
[12:16.430 --> 12:22.870]  [SPEAKER_14]: It seems that a university five time zones away was installing a new network management system.
[12:23.470 --> 12:26.650]  [SPEAKER_14]: This program was, it seems, self-configuring.
[12:26.850 --> 12:30.850]  [SPEAKER_14]: It went out and tried to discover the topology of the network.
[12:31.490 --> 12:34.230]  [SPEAKER_14]: The whole network, as best I can tell.
[12:35.150 --> 12:36.830]  [SPEAKER_14]: Captain, we are being probed.
[12:37.210 --> 12:42.330]  [SPEAKER_14]: I wonder how many sites were probed and didn't notice before I alerted the administrators.
[12:42.650 --> 12:45.150]  [SPEAKER_14]: There are all sorts of other implications, of course.
[12:45.290 --> 12:50.030]  [SPEAKER_14]: For one thing, I don't know if I was being told the truth, though I have little reason to doubt it.
[12:50.030 --> 12:55.310]  [SPEAKER_14]: And such a comprehensive network map can be used to commit all sorts of mischief.
[12:55.310 --> 12:58.630]  [SPEAKER_14]: But as far as I know, that didn't happen this time.
[12:59.690 --> 13:10.950]  [SPEAKER_14]: And that's a summary of the news of this week around the world where phones and computers and other technological innovations are wreaking havoc.
[13:10.950 --> 13:14.490]  [SPEAKER_14]: And the people behind them, of course, are responsible as well.
[13:14.970 --> 13:19.590]  [SPEAKER_14]: Now, I'd like to draw people's attention to a couple of things.
[13:20.030 --> 13:22.670]  [SPEAKER_14]: So, this is part of a feature with...
[13:22.670 --> 13:26.730]  [SPEAKER_14]: If this show wasn't being canceled, I would call it Rip-Off of the Week.
[13:28.130 --> 13:33.330]  [SPEAKER_14]: But, you know, if we come back at some point, we can resume this series.
[13:33.470 --> 13:40.790]  [SPEAKER_14]: But what I'm going to do now is connect live to something that I would like to refer to as Rip-Off of the Week.
[13:40.850 --> 13:53.870]  [SPEAKER_14]: Now, if you listened last week, you heard a whole big expose Jose on Cocots, pay phones that call you collect and sometimes don't care what you say, whether you say yes or whether you say no.
[13:54.310 --> 13:58.290]  [SPEAKER_14]: If you don't hang up in five seconds, they'll start charging you anyway.
[13:58.710 --> 14:06.250]  [SPEAKER_14]: And it's something that we have written proof, thanks to some hackers that jumped into trash bins and actually got documentation of this.
[14:06.250 --> 14:09.310]  [SPEAKER_14]: That was the Rip-Off of last week.
[14:09.510 --> 14:14.610]  [SPEAKER_14]: However, this week, we've got something which I think is even better.
[14:14.850 --> 14:17.610]  [SPEAKER_14]: Now, I'm going to call up an 800 number right now.
[14:17.690 --> 14:18.910]  [SPEAKER_14]: Now, you remember 800 numbers.
[14:19.030 --> 14:22.970]  [SPEAKER_14]: They're supposed to be toll-free.
[14:22.970 --> 14:25.190]  [SPEAKER_14]: I think that's the equivalent word.
[14:25.590 --> 14:29.050]  [SPEAKER_14]: And this particular 800 number is far from that.
[14:30.310 --> 14:33.550]  [SPEAKER_14]: Hopefully our technology worked and we can listen to this.
[14:35.370 --> 14:37.090]  [SPEAKER_14]: What a nice, clear crystal line, huh?
[14:42.470 --> 14:44.870]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay, well, I guess we should be happy that it hung up on us.
[14:44.910 --> 14:47.590]  [SPEAKER_14]: Let's get another line and...
[14:49.230 --> 14:50.890]  [SPEAKER_14]: All right, let's try this one more time.
[14:51.250 --> 14:58.650]  [SPEAKER_14]: This is why you have to send us money, folks, because we hardly have a state-of-the-art system here.
[14:58.670 --> 14:59.010]  [SPEAKER_14]: I don't know.
[15:02.790 --> 15:04.610]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay, we're having all kinds of technical problems here.
[15:04.710 --> 15:06.890]  [SPEAKER_14]: This is very embarrassing, but that's the kind of thing that happens.
[15:06.890 --> 15:12.030]  [SPEAKER_14]: Let's just redial and come in again.
[15:14.390 --> 15:21.030]  [SPEAKER_14]: We're attempting to show an 800 number that doesn't quite do what it's supposed to do.
[15:21.710 --> 15:24.930]  [SPEAKER_14]: Now, let's see if we can get another...
[15:26.650 --> 15:27.610]  [SPEAKER_14]: another dial tone.
[15:27.830 --> 15:28.950]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay, we've got a dial tone.
[15:29.070 --> 15:32.990]  [SPEAKER_14]: Now, let's see if we can actually dial a number here.
[15:32.990 --> 15:39.770]  [SPEAKER_14]: Those of you that can translate these little beeps will be most gratified to find out what it is.
[15:40.310 --> 15:45.310]  [SPEAKER_14]: This is a way to really get even with somebody if you feel they've done you an injustice.
[15:47.470 --> 15:48.690]  [SPEAKER_14]: Let's listen to what happens.
[15:52.790 --> 16:02.170]  [SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to the best psychics line where you can speak to the best and most requested psychics of the Psychic Advisor Network.
[16:02.550 --> 16:12.170]  [SPEAKER_00]: The cost of this call is a flat rate of $120 for a private reading that will last 20 to 30 minutes.
[16:12.330 --> 16:12.830]  [SPEAKER_08]: What a bargain.
[16:12.930 --> 16:18.590]  [SPEAKER_00]: To use this service, you must have a touch-tone phone and you must be at least 18 years of age.
[16:18.590 --> 16:23.310]  [SPEAKER_00]: You may bill this to the phone you are calling from or to your credit card.
[16:23.830 --> 16:26.990]  [SPEAKER_00]: Please hold the line for the appointment menu.
[16:31.160 --> 16:32.500]  [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for holding.
[16:32.760 --> 16:33.180]  [SPEAKER_08]: No problem.
[16:33.380 --> 16:35.340]  [SPEAKER_00]: Here you will make one of three choices.
[16:35.960 --> 16:43.320]  [SPEAKER_00]: If you have already made an appointment and know your PIN or PIN number, press 1 now.
[16:44.080 --> 16:51.460]  [SPEAKER_00]: If you would like to speak to a live operator to make an appointment with the Psychic, please press 2.
[16:51.720 --> 16:54.020]  [SPEAKER_14]: We'll press 2, but we won't talk to a live operator.
[16:54.180 --> 16:55.280]  [SPEAKER_00]: I'll have called and made an appointment.
[16:57.120 --> 16:59.280]  [SPEAKER_00]: You have reached the billing menu.
[16:59.720 --> 17:02.000]  [SPEAKER_00]: You may make one of two choices.
[17:02.540 --> 17:08.780]  [SPEAKER_00]: To bill the $120 charge to your credit card, press 1 now.
[17:09.720 --> 17:15.600]  [SPEAKER_00]: To bill the $120 to the phone you are calling from, press 2.
[17:16.080 --> 17:17.020]  [SPEAKER_14]: Should I do that?
[17:17.340 --> 17:18.420]  [SPEAKER_14]: Sure, why not?
[17:18.600 --> 17:24.860]  [SPEAKER_00]: The phone number that the $120 charge will be billed to is...
[17:25.410 --> 17:32.920]  [SPEAKER_02]: 2-1-2-2-7-9-3-4-0-0.
[17:33.080 --> 17:34.280]  [SPEAKER_14]: That's our phone number.
[17:34.600 --> 17:42.280]  [SPEAKER_00]: If that was the correct number and to accept the $120 charge to your phone bill, press 1 now.
[17:42.620 --> 17:45.540]  [SPEAKER_00]: To bill to your credit card, press 2.
[17:45.920 --> 17:50.000]  [SPEAKER_00]: To not accumulate any charges, you may disconnect now.
[17:50.480 --> 17:50.880]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay.
[17:51.260 --> 17:52.480]  [SPEAKER_14]: All I have to do is hit 1.
[17:52.940 --> 18:04.940]  [SPEAKER_14]: I'm going to, uh, disconnect now because I'm such a nice person, but all I had to do was hit another touch-tone 1 and WBAI would have had $120 for a single phone call to an 800 number, too.
[18:05.400 --> 18:07.880]  [SPEAKER_14]: I mean, what a great way to get even with people, you know?
[18:09.020 --> 18:09.420]  [SPEAKER_14]: Anybody...
[18:09.420 --> 18:16.060]  [SPEAKER_14]: I'm told this works with payphones as well, especially those weird payphones that charge you for collect calls sometimes.
[18:17.360 --> 18:17.840]  [SPEAKER_14]: Unbelievable.
[18:18.460 --> 18:19.940]  [SPEAKER_14]: $120 just like that.
[18:20.060 --> 18:21.320]  [SPEAKER_14]: That's how easy it is.
[18:22.220 --> 18:29.460]  [SPEAKER_14]: And, uh, to encourage people to, uh, to save the program, I'll give out this phone number the next time we're on the air,
[18:39.420 --> 18:40.420]  [SPEAKER_14]: We've got to know these things.
[18:40.560 --> 18:59.060]  [SPEAKER_14]: We've got to, uh, keep abreast of, of the latest quote-unquote innovations and, uh, consumer, uh, taking advantage of things because there are some every week there is no shortage of, uh, of new gizmos that they're coming out with to try and hook you,
[18:59.220 --> 19:06.800]  [SPEAKER_14]: whether it's 540 numbers or 900 numbers or automated collect calls or $120 800 calls.
[19:07.560 --> 19:23.020]  [SPEAKER_14]: The consumer is being victimized and in most cases there's absolutely nothing they can do about it unless they become educated and that's what we're here for to educate people to let them know how to avoid this kind of thing and what the warning signs are.
[19:23.560 --> 19:24.540]  [SPEAKER_14]: I can't believe it.
[19:24.620 --> 19:27.040]  [SPEAKER_14]: I was one touchstone away from complete catastrophe there.
[19:28.060 --> 19:31.120]  [SPEAKER_14]: 212-279-3400 We're going to go to the phones in just a little bit.
[19:31.860 --> 19:51.100]  [SPEAKER_14]: First, I want to, uh, tell people I, uh, took a tour of the FBI this past week and that was, uh, I guess it was more fun for them probably than it was for me because I, I caused all kinds of, uh, of, of commotion down there asking, um, questions I really wasn't supposed to ask and looking at things I wasn't really supposed to look at.
[19:51.340 --> 20:02.220]  [SPEAKER_14]: For instance, they, they herd you into this room where you're supposed to wait for the tour to begin and, um, a little, uh, contest that I decided to start was, uh, count the cameras.
[20:02.520 --> 20:07.160]  [SPEAKER_14]: See how many cameras there are watching you at any particular moment and where they can be.
[20:07.460 --> 20:22.720]  [SPEAKER_14]: At one time, I counted, I believe, six different cameras that were watching the same area and, uh, a device that was very unusual was attached to an exit sign and it just had a green light on it that occasionally flashed red and nobody knew what that was but,
[20:22.900 --> 20:26.120]  [SPEAKER_14]: uh, I brought people's attention to it saying, hey, smile.
[20:26.580 --> 20:28.240]  [SPEAKER_14]: You're on a lot of cameras at once.
[20:28.940 --> 20:39.700]  [SPEAKER_14]: Uh, now, it's incredible because there is no time throughout the entire tour where you're not being watched by something somewhere and, uh, a friend of mine said, look, now there's no cameras anywhere.
[20:39.840 --> 20:49.680]  [SPEAKER_14]: See, I, I, I'm looking there are no cameras and I was able to find this little, uh, uh, bubble, this little black bubble coming out of the ceiling and I said, guess what's inside that?
[20:50.540 --> 20:52.520]  [SPEAKER_14]: The whole city pretty much is like that.
[20:52.640 --> 20:53.480]  [SPEAKER_14]: All of Washington, D.C.
[20:53.520 --> 20:55.220]  [SPEAKER_14]: has cameras everywhere you go.
[20:55.400 --> 20:59.800]  [SPEAKER_14]: Inside the, the metro, outside on the street, inside any office building.
[21:00.300 --> 21:02.340]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's, uh, it's frightening.
[21:02.820 --> 21:12.760]  [SPEAKER_14]: And what's most frightening is the fact that people don't know they're always on camera and they don't know who's watching and why and what they're looking for.
[21:13.480 --> 21:27.180]  [SPEAKER_14]: The way I, uh, deal with such situations is to give them something to look at and then you find out who's looking at you because when they come out to, to, uh, scold you or find out what you're doing, you find out, first of all, how quickly they, they're able to,
[21:27.260 --> 21:34.340]  [SPEAKER_14]: uh, to act upon something and who it is that's watching and maybe even why and maybe even what they do to people after they take them into custody.
[21:34.340 --> 21:36.440]  [SPEAKER_14]: you know, it's the kind of thing you have to find out.
[21:36.600 --> 21:38.780]  [SPEAKER_14]: You have to test the system.
[21:39.160 --> 21:40.700]  [SPEAKER_14]: That's what the system is there for.
[21:40.780 --> 21:46.240]  [SPEAKER_14]: The system is not there just to be listened to and, uh, and have all the rules being followed.
[21:46.380 --> 21:47.660]  [SPEAKER_14]: Oh yeah, it sounds like anarchy.
[21:47.800 --> 21:56.140]  [SPEAKER_14]: It sounds like, you know, we're telling you to break all the rules, but, uh, if you don't know what the rules are there for, if you don't know why the cameras are there, you have to find out.
[21:56.740 --> 22:03.860]  [SPEAKER_14]: You gotta find out who's doing this and why and how come you didn't know about it in the first So, D.C.
[22:03.880 --> 22:05.240]  [SPEAKER_14]: is pretty much like that throughout.
[22:05.580 --> 22:07.400]  [SPEAKER_14]: A lot of monitoring going on.
[22:07.560 --> 22:09.080]  [SPEAKER_14]: And that's just the cameras.
[22:09.180 --> 22:10.780]  [SPEAKER_14]: You don't know how many microphones there are.
[22:11.020 --> 22:12.980]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's Orwellian, to say the least.
[22:13.440 --> 22:20.180]  [SPEAKER_14]: But as far as the FBI goes, they were very proud of all their statistics.
[22:20.720 --> 22:27.940]  [SPEAKER_14]: At one point, they said they had a 100% success rate in tracking down criminals using, I believe, the soles of their shoes.
[22:27.940 --> 22:46.660]  [SPEAKER_14]: Now, a lot of people don't realize this, but every shoe manufacturer, voluntarily, and there's never been a case where they haven't done this voluntarily, according to the guy who was leading the tour, they voluntarily send a copy of their soles for every new shoe they come out with,
[22:46.780 --> 22:56.820]  [SPEAKER_14]: down to the FBI, so that they have it on file, so that if they ever find a shoe print, or a shoe, or anything like that, they can immediately identify what kind of shoe it is.
[22:56.820 --> 23:00.800]  [SPEAKER_14]: I mean, isn't that just great that every shoe company does this voluntarily?
[23:01.320 --> 23:04.500]  [SPEAKER_14]: And the FBI is able to immediately tell.
[23:04.720 --> 23:08.300]  [SPEAKER_14]: Now, what's not voluntary is what car manufacturers have to do.
[23:08.400 --> 23:26.520]  [SPEAKER_14]: They have to send a sample of their paint and metal to the FBI, so that whenever a car is involved in an accident of some sort, or pieces of a car are left lying around, they can send that down to the labs and instantly tell what make, what model, what year the car is.
[23:28.140 --> 23:29.100]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's most incredible.
[23:29.240 --> 23:43.640]  [SPEAKER_14]: And they were telling us things like, a single strand of hair, we can tell exactly how old somebody was, what drugs they were using, what their political habits are, all kinds of amazing things that you really wouldn't expect them to know, and, gosh, they're so proud of this.
[23:44.260 --> 23:52.600]  [SPEAKER_14]: One thing, though, that they're not as proud of anymore is the big map that they have in the lobby where they first start showing you the tour.
[23:52.600 --> 23:53.920]  [SPEAKER_14]: I happen to be with some Europeans.
[23:54.560 --> 24:07.480]  [SPEAKER_14]: And they were flabbergasted because, whereas I looked at the map and I saw that it was updated because it had a unified Germany, they looked at the map and they saw Germany with pre-World War II borders.
[24:07.480 --> 24:10.480]  [SPEAKER_14]: In other words, taking up half of Poland.
[24:11.000 --> 24:14.060]  [SPEAKER_14]: And this is the map that the FBI uses.
[24:14.460 --> 24:17.680]  [SPEAKER_14]: They're using a map with Germany taking over Poland.
[24:17.720 --> 24:24.740]  [SPEAKER_14]: Now, maybe they're thinking in the future or something, I don't know, but the guide certainly had no idea that this was the case.
[24:24.740 --> 24:28.900]  [SPEAKER_14]: And I certainly believe the people from Europe that tend to know geography better than we do here.
[24:30.040 --> 24:33.140]  [SPEAKER_14]: That's something to check out next time you go down to D.C.
[24:33.180 --> 24:33.940]  [SPEAKER_14]: and take that tour.
[24:34.200 --> 24:39.680]  [SPEAKER_14]: Another thing, they were very proud of the anti-terrorism task force in this country.
[24:39.680 --> 24:47.120]  [SPEAKER_14]: They were showing us all kinds of weapons that they use and detection methods and surveillance methods and things like that.
[24:47.120 --> 24:51.520]  [SPEAKER_14]: And at that point, I asked innocently.
[24:51.840 --> 24:54.180]  [SPEAKER_14]: That's the best way to ask questions is innocently.
[24:54.780 --> 24:59.480]  [SPEAKER_14]: So, how many terrorist acts have there been in the United States in the last few years?
[25:00.640 --> 25:09.320]  [SPEAKER_14]: I've never really seen anybody turn that particular shade of red before, but when he did that, he said, well, actually, I don't believe there have been any.
[25:09.820 --> 25:11.820]  [SPEAKER_14]: And I said, well, that's real impressive.
[25:12.380 --> 25:13.880]  [SPEAKER_14]: Not a single terrorist act.
[25:13.960 --> 25:20.920]  [SPEAKER_14]: People are really doing a great job and certainly are deserving of all the money that comes your way for that kind of thing.
[25:23.040 --> 25:26.220]  [SPEAKER_14]: So, the FBI is there to protect us.
[25:26.300 --> 25:27.800]  [SPEAKER_14]: The FBI is there to watch us.
[25:28.780 --> 25:31.260]  [SPEAKER_14]: And we can learn so much from them.
[25:31.740 --> 25:32.960]  [SPEAKER_14]: Take the tour when you go down there.
[25:33.060 --> 25:34.800]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's really worth it.
[25:34.840 --> 25:37.560]  [SPEAKER_14]: And keep an eye out for cameras everywhere you go in D.C.
[25:37.560 --> 25:42.240]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's an amazingly educational experience.
[25:42.240 --> 25:45.240]  [SPEAKER_14]: I was with somebody once when we first saw these cameras.
[25:45.300 --> 25:46.100]  [SPEAKER_14]: This was years ago.
[25:46.580 --> 25:48.780]  [SPEAKER_14]: And I said, look, there's a camera on the Metro.
[25:48.900 --> 25:50.240]  [SPEAKER_14]: Why is there a camera on the Metro?
[25:50.680 --> 25:54.920]  [SPEAKER_14]: And my friend said, I don't know, as he dropped a candy wrapper on the ground.
[25:54.920 --> 25:58.800]  [SPEAKER_14]: And then a voice comes out of the ceiling saying, pick that up.
[25:59.960 --> 26:01.360]  [SPEAKER_14]: Oh yeah, they're watching.
[26:01.360 --> 26:03.800]  [SPEAKER_14]: The FBI wants to keep watching too.
[26:03.940 --> 26:09.160]  [SPEAKER_14]: They want the American public to pay for wiretapping.
[26:09.420 --> 26:26.200]  [SPEAKER_14]: That's right, the FBI contending that rapidly developing telecommunications technology is hampering the vital tool of wiretapping has proposed legislation that would require the industry to ensure that improvements do not interfere with the ability to secretly record conversations.
[26:26.200 --> 26:42.240]  [SPEAKER_14]: Basically, they say if the problem is not solved, and this is a quote, terrorists, violent criminals, kidnappers, drug cartels, and other criminal organizations will be able to carry out their illegal activities using the telecommunications system without detection.
[26:43.300 --> 27:01.800]  [SPEAKER_14]: Now, what they want to do is have something built into all new digital phone systems so that monitoring will be easy, perhaps as easy as a couple of keystrokes on a computer, and no more having to crawl through basements and go into central offices and attach bulky equipment.
[27:01.960 --> 27:03.780]  [SPEAKER_14]: Now, that's all fine and good.
[27:03.860 --> 27:07.000]  [SPEAKER_14]: The FBI occasionally has reason to listen in on people.
[27:07.000 --> 27:14.720]  [SPEAKER_14]: But the danger here is that by integrating it into the technology itself, it becomes an option.
[27:15.040 --> 27:21.660]  [SPEAKER_14]: And like many internal phone systems in some organizations, that option can be abused.
[27:21.660 --> 27:29.780]  [SPEAKER_14]: And not just by computer hackers, by the FBI and by all kinds of other people that happen to gain knowledge of this.
[27:29.780 --> 27:32.420]  [SPEAKER_14]: Is this something we really want to do?
[27:32.780 --> 27:38.000]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's a good question to open up tonight and any future nights that we might happen to have.
[27:39.120 --> 27:40.900]  [SPEAKER_14]: Also, do you want to pay for that?
[27:41.000 --> 27:49.360]  [SPEAKER_14]: Do you think the American taxpayer should be the person that pays for their own surveillance?
[27:50.440 --> 27:51.740]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's rather absurd.
[27:51.740 --> 27:55.740]  [SPEAKER_14]: And I think if they had just not said that, a lot of people would have ignored this from the start.
[27:56.380 --> 28:00.320]  [SPEAKER_14]: But unfortunately, that is what will get people's attention, the fact that they have to pay for it.
[28:00.500 --> 28:06.480]  [SPEAKER_14]: I think it's much more important that people are being spied upon and watched and listened to.
[28:07.120 --> 28:09.760]  [SPEAKER_14]: I mean, all kinds of things are capable in the future.
[28:09.960 --> 28:17.580]  [SPEAKER_14]: We can monitor for particular words in every conversation that's ever said locally or long distance.
[28:17.580 --> 28:21.140]  [SPEAKER_14]: If we want to go that way, we'll develop the technology to do it.
[28:21.140 --> 28:29.460]  [SPEAKER_14]: And if we don't want to develop that way, then we need to hear from people who say that strongly and adamantly and will not take no for an answer.
[28:31.280 --> 28:36.440]  [SPEAKER_14]: That's the FBI speech as far as what's going on in our nation's capital.
[28:38.040 --> 28:45.600]  [SPEAKER_14]: Now, I'm going to do one more thing, since I did mention before that at least according to the unreleased program schedule...
[28:45.600 --> 28:50.780]  [SPEAKER_14]: And I haven't been told anything yet, but people have been coming up to me saying that the show has been bumped.
[28:52.000 --> 28:55.820]  [SPEAKER_14]: And if that is the case, we may not get another chance to do this.
[28:56.120 --> 28:57.480]  [SPEAKER_14]: And that's why I want to do it now.
[28:58.800 --> 29:01.980]  [SPEAKER_14]: We've been doing this show for over a year.
[29:02.200 --> 29:04.580]  [SPEAKER_14]: A lot of people have called in and sent letters.
[29:05.260 --> 29:06.380]  [SPEAKER_14]: Some angry letters, too.
[29:06.480 --> 29:08.220]  [SPEAKER_14]: Saying, you never say what the theme is.
[29:08.600 --> 29:10.840]  [SPEAKER_14]: You never say what that music is that you play.
[29:12.400 --> 29:18.480]  [SPEAKER_14]: And as sort of a present, a thank you, and maybe hope for the future...
[29:20.400 --> 29:22.720]  [SPEAKER_14]: We'll play the thing for you, the way it really sounds.
[29:23.100 --> 29:25.360]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's a couple of minutes long, and then we'll take phone calls.
[29:26.280 --> 29:31.860]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's from a band that really doesn't exist anymore in its rightful sense, Big Audio Dynamite.
[29:32.180 --> 29:35.300]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, there's a band called Big Audio Dynamite 2, but it's not the same thing.
[29:36.340 --> 29:39.880]  [SPEAKER_14]: This is a song written by Don Letts, who's no longer in the band.
[29:39.980 --> 29:41.480]  [SPEAKER_14]: He's now in a band called Screaming Target.
[29:42.000 --> 29:45.120]  [SPEAKER_14]: And the song is a flip side of a 12-inch single.
[29:45.380 --> 29:46.740]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, I dug around for this.
[29:47.260 --> 29:49.360]  [SPEAKER_14]: And the song is called Much Worse.
[29:49.360 --> 29:56.640]  [SPEAKER_14]: So we'll play that, we'll come back, take your phone calls at 212-279-3400.
[29:56.640 --> 29:58.900]  [SPEAKER_14]: The program is off the hook.
[30:01.020 --> 30:03.940]  [SPEAKER_12]: No matter what the people say, these songs lead the way.
[30:04.240 --> 30:06.420]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's out of your day from boss DJ, Don.
[30:13.510 --> 30:15.470]  [SPEAKER_06]: The telephone keeps ringing.
[30:15.930 --> 30:18.030]  [SPEAKER_06]: So I ripped it off the wall.
[30:19.050 --> 30:21.010]  [SPEAKER_06]: I cut myself while shaving.
[30:21.590 --> 30:23.550]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now I can't make a call.
[30:24.510 --> 30:26.690]  [SPEAKER_06]: And now I got a headache.
[30:27.030 --> 30:28.890]  [SPEAKER_06]: Or maybe it's a tooth.
[30:29.210 --> 30:29.910]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, no.
[30:30.370 --> 30:31.950]  [SPEAKER_06]: Things couldn't get much worse.
[30:32.490 --> 30:34.390]  [SPEAKER_06]: I've gots to tell the truth.
[30:35.170 --> 30:37.250]  [SPEAKER_06]: No, it couldn't get much worse.
[30:37.890 --> 30:39.850]  [SPEAKER_06]: But if they could, they would.
[30:40.190 --> 30:40.790]  [SPEAKER_06]: Bum Diddly Bomb.
[30:40.970 --> 30:42.750]  [SPEAKER_06]: But I best expect the worst.
[30:43.350 --> 30:45.230]  [SPEAKER_06]: I hope that's understood.
[30:45.570 --> 30:46.250]  [SPEAKER_06]: Bum Diddly Bomb.
[30:51.900 --> 30:53.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: I just ran out of milk.
[30:54.280 --> 30:56.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: There's no paper in the loo.
[30:56.440 --> 30:57.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: Bum Diddly Bomb.
[30:57.700 --> 30:59.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: And now it started raining.
[31:00.240 --> 31:01.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: Lightning, thunder, too.
[31:01.920 --> 31:02.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: Bum Diddly Bomb.
[31:03.200 --> 31:04.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I begin to wonder.
[31:05.460 --> 31:07.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: How bad can you get?
[31:08.380 --> 31:10.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: A burger comes in through my door.
[31:10.600 --> 31:12.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: Nix my TV set.
[31:13.760 --> 31:15.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: So why light up the cigarette?
[31:16.560 --> 31:18.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: Listen to some sounds.
[31:19.620 --> 31:21.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: Set my house on fire.
[31:22.240 --> 31:23.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: Burnt it to the ground.
[31:24.860 --> 31:26.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: Couldn't get much worse.
[31:27.140 --> 31:28.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: But if they could, they would.
[31:41.200 --> 31:43.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: And now I got a console.
[31:43.680 --> 31:45.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: My brother's on the run.
[31:46.780 --> 31:49.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: I might have a change of luck.
[31:49.260 --> 31:50.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: Before my day is done.
[31:51.820 --> 31:52.380]  Bum Diddly Bomb.
[31:52.380 --> 31:53.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: Couldn't get much worse.
[31:54.580 --> 31:56.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: But if they could, they would.
[31:56.700 --> 31:57.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: Bum Diddly Bomb.
[31:57.600 --> 31:58.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: For the best.
[31:58.320 --> 31:59.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: Expect the worst.
[32:00.280 --> 32:01.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: I hope the sun is stood.
[32:02.140 --> 32:02.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: Bum Diddly Bomb.
[32:08.040 --> 32:20.740]  [SPEAKER_07]: Bum Diddly Bomb.
[32:36.620 --> 32:40.340]  [SPEAKER_07]: The song is
[33:05.190 --> 33:08.430]  [SPEAKER_14]: called Much Worse from Don Letts and Big Audio Dynamite.
[33:08.550 --> 33:10.230]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's been our theme here on Off the Hook.
[33:10.930 --> 33:13.550]  [SPEAKER_14]: And, uh, yeah, I guess I'm talking over it now.
[33:13.590 --> 33:17.170]  [SPEAKER_14]: I don't really mean to, but, uh, we don't have all that much time left.
[33:17.690 --> 33:24.110]  [SPEAKER_14]: If we're to believe, uh, the schedule, we only have 28 minutes left in this program.
[33:24.250 --> 33:26.270]  [SPEAKER_14]: We do want to hear, uh, from listeners.
[33:26.710 --> 33:28.990]  [SPEAKER_14]: I want to thank the people that have, uh, called in.
[33:29.110 --> 33:36.750]  [SPEAKER_14]: Because word of this has gotten out that the show is, uh, is being, uh, I guess if you want to use network terminology, put on hiatus or whatever.
[33:36.950 --> 33:37.810]  [SPEAKER_14]: I hate that phrase.
[33:37.950 --> 33:40.130]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's like, you know, being in a coma or something.
[33:40.650 --> 33:44.850]  [SPEAKER_14]: But if, if that is to be believed, uh, we, we don't have that much time.
[33:44.950 --> 33:46.490]  [SPEAKER_14]: We do want to get in as many people as possible.
[33:46.490 --> 33:55.550]  [SPEAKER_14]: So, Dave Bursney from the, uh, Personal Computer Show, which follows this program, uh, and will continue to be on at, uh, at 10 o'clock, has, uh, dropped in to, to say hi.
[33:55.730 --> 33:56.810]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's kind of like a wake, I guess, eh?
[33:57.190 --> 33:58.530]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, I hope it's not a wake.
[33:58.650 --> 34:00.330]  [SPEAKER_11]: I don't really know quite what's going on.
[34:00.450 --> 34:01.710]  [SPEAKER_11]: I'm hearing all kinds of rumors.
[34:01.910 --> 34:04.390]  [SPEAKER_11]: And I will not discuss station business on the air.
[34:04.710 --> 34:06.450]  [SPEAKER_11]: Because I could be thrown off the air for that.
[34:06.550 --> 34:08.190]  [SPEAKER_11]: There's very strict rules here at BAI.
[34:08.770 --> 34:10.210]  [SPEAKER_11]: But I came on a little bit early.
[34:10.310 --> 34:12.050]  [SPEAKER_11]: I'll be back on the air at 10 with our stuff.
[34:12.730 --> 34:15.190]  [SPEAKER_11]: Because I really appreciate a lot of what Emmanuel is doing.
[34:15.730 --> 34:18.770]  [SPEAKER_11]: We have a pretty good show that talks about the how of computers.
[34:19.550 --> 34:27.570]  [SPEAKER_11]: We've always prided on being useful, what to buy, how to use it, how to get help when you needed it, how to communicate in the community.
[34:28.290 --> 34:29.750]  [SPEAKER_11]: I think we do a pretty good job.
[34:29.830 --> 34:31.150]  [SPEAKER_11]: And some other people agree with us.
[34:31.930 --> 34:37.010]  [SPEAKER_11]: About twice a year, we get around to talking about the what of what computers are.
[34:37.670 --> 34:42.090]  [SPEAKER_11]: And that's been real hard in our show, because we have real strong disagreements on it.
[34:42.150 --> 34:43.730]  [SPEAKER_11]: So we try not to air them over the radio.
[34:44.530 --> 34:55.190]  [SPEAKER_11]: But what computers are doing is involved in so many different parts of our lives, that it's not just a how to program to tell you what computers are about.
[34:55.670 --> 34:58.030]  [SPEAKER_11]: We get to the dark side of them every so often.
[34:59.070 --> 35:05.290]  [SPEAKER_11]: Emmanuel's been getting to the dark side of them again and again, in a way that's actually most remarkable radio.
[35:05.730 --> 35:09.590]  [SPEAKER_11]: I must admit, it's live radio, which means sometimes it doesn't work.
[35:10.130 --> 35:11.830]  [SPEAKER_11]: But every so often...
[35:11.830 --> 35:15.790]  [SPEAKER_14]: Oh, I guess that's one of the countenance that doesn't work.
[35:18.890 --> 35:21.510]  [SPEAKER_11]: I couldn't have timed that better if I was trying.
[35:22.010 --> 35:25.850]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, we sometimes crash our live radio, but we sometimes do things that are brilliant.
[35:26.190 --> 35:27.650]  [SPEAKER_14]: Sometimes it does work, yes.
[35:27.970 --> 35:30.250]  [SPEAKER_11]: And Emmanuel sometimes do things that are memorable.
[35:30.250 --> 35:35.370]  [SPEAKER_14]: You see, the most important thing about live radio is that the listeners are able to feed back.
[35:35.510 --> 35:41.250]  [SPEAKER_14]: Now, you can't really do that on tape, and you can't really do that at certain other times.
[35:41.270 --> 35:54.430]  [SPEAKER_14]: I happen to think that this is a time when a lot of people come home from work, a lot of people come home from school, or are, you know, just kind of settling down and want to talk about the world's events.
[35:54.470 --> 35:58.710]  [SPEAKER_14]: But, you know, you don't get to hear about the things that we talk about in very many places.
[35:58.710 --> 36:02.650]  [SPEAKER_14]: In fact, there's people in California that listen to this radio program.
[36:02.750 --> 36:11.290]  [SPEAKER_14]: You might ask how that's possible, but they get tapes of it, because even the stations out there, the Pacifica stations out there, don't really discuss this kind of thing.
[36:11.590 --> 36:12.630]  [SPEAKER_14]: And I wish they did.
[36:12.630 --> 36:14.270]  [SPEAKER_14]: I wish there were more programs like this.
[36:14.390 --> 36:15.590]  [SPEAKER_14]: I wish we were on the satellite.
[36:16.350 --> 36:18.990]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay, so we talk about how computers have power.
[36:19.470 --> 36:26.070]  [SPEAKER_11]: One of the most dramatic things that's happened at the FCC in the last few years is when they threatened to be censoring the bulletin boards.
[36:26.530 --> 36:30.690]  [SPEAKER_11]: And it looked like they were going to be imposing costs to run a computer bulletin board.
[36:31.470 --> 36:33.870]  [SPEAKER_11]: Ridiculous costs that would make them almost impractical.
[36:34.590 --> 36:36.890]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, the FCC is a fairness doctrine.
[36:37.190 --> 36:40.810]  [SPEAKER_11]: It gives out billions of dollars of licenses to channels.
[36:41.350 --> 36:49.070]  [SPEAKER_11]: It rules on 25 and 100 and million dollar, well, not million dollar fines, but certainly million dollar purchases and agreements all the time.
[36:49.610 --> 36:58.710]  [SPEAKER_11]: Powerful, important agency that was utterly overwhelmed in a way that had never happened before when they came up against the computer users.
[36:58.710 --> 37:04.310]  [SPEAKER_11]: That people getting on the board was talking about what was happening in the community and what to do about it.
[37:04.590 --> 37:15.750]  [SPEAKER_11]: And never before had the FCC gotten so many phone calls and so many letters on an issue that they just shelved the bloody thing for a couple of years, even though everybody in the FCC was probably in favor of the surcharge.
[37:16.010 --> 37:18.110]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's kind of like the ham radio people.
[37:18.270 --> 37:21.030]  [SPEAKER_14]: They have a lot of clout, too, those people.
[37:21.410 --> 37:22.470]  [SPEAKER_14]: And it's a community.
[37:22.470 --> 37:27.370]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's a new community that is kind of not understood by the rest of society.
[37:27.370 --> 37:29.650]  [SPEAKER_14]: And it's come to be respected.
[37:29.650 --> 37:32.690]  [SPEAKER_14]: And hopefully it will be coming to be respected in the future.
[37:32.930 --> 37:41.330]  [SPEAKER_14]: You know, I'll tell you something that bothers me the most, though, is that I worry about some of the things that we've discussed over the past year.
[37:41.990 --> 37:43.490]  [SPEAKER_14]: Freedom of speech.
[37:43.770 --> 38:07.770]  [SPEAKER_14]: We recently talked to a fellow out in San Diego that lost his computer bulletin board and lost a good part of his security to the police department out there that came and broke into his house and took his computer and really terrorized his family because he ran an adult-oriented bulletin board and they were saying that he was peddling obscenity,
[38:07.810 --> 38:08.810]  [SPEAKER_14]: which, of course, he wasn't.
[38:09.250 --> 38:13.730]  [SPEAKER_14]: But what happened was we gave him a voice here on the radio and he discussed this.
[38:13.870 --> 38:18.170]  [SPEAKER_14]: We were able to talk to him technically about what was going on and what was actually happening.
[38:18.170 --> 38:25.310]  [SPEAKER_14]: A lot of BAI listeners called up the police department out there, outraged, and that really did make a difference.
[38:25.310 --> 38:26.310]  [SPEAKER_14]: He got his stuff back.
[38:26.330 --> 38:29.990]  [SPEAKER_14]: I'm not saying it's because of that, but it sure must have helped.
[38:30.070 --> 38:30.970]  [SPEAKER_14]: It must have done something.
[38:31.110 --> 38:34.290]  [SPEAKER_14]: When people speak out, you know, things do happen.
[38:34.450 --> 38:35.630]  [SPEAKER_14]: Now, go ahead, Dave.
[38:35.850 --> 38:37.890]  [SPEAKER_11]: Something you never saw on the radio, right?
[38:37.990 --> 38:39.310]  [SPEAKER_11]: You don't see things on the radio.
[38:39.610 --> 38:47.830]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's like me and Joe and Hank would do the computer show and we hear some particularly egregious violation of privacy or Big Brother-type practice.
[38:48.230 --> 38:51.150]  [SPEAKER_11]: And we look at each other and we grimace and we groan.
[38:51.510 --> 38:53.290]  [SPEAKER_11]: And sometimes we even talk about it.
[38:53.490 --> 38:54.210]  [SPEAKER_11]: Am I coming through?
[38:54.390 --> 38:55.230]  [SPEAKER_11]: I lost my earphones?
[38:55.470 --> 38:55.970]  [SPEAKER_14]: Oh, I'm sorry.
[38:56.490 --> 38:57.090]  [SPEAKER_14]: No, you're fine.
[38:57.170 --> 38:57.810]  [SPEAKER_11]: I'm fine, okay.
[38:57.870 --> 38:58.870]  [SPEAKER_11]: I'm just not in my own ears.
[38:58.970 --> 39:00.710]  [SPEAKER_14]: I hit a switch, but no, everything's fine.
[39:00.790 --> 39:02.210]  [SPEAKER_11]: BAI is a wonderful place.
[39:02.210 --> 39:03.690]  [SPEAKER_11]: We do remarkable things.
[39:03.870 --> 39:07.590]  [SPEAKER_11]: And we do it with the most incredibly ineffective equipment.
[39:07.850 --> 39:10.190]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's amazing we manage to keep the signal going.
[39:10.350 --> 39:10.630]  [SPEAKER_11]: It is.
[39:10.630 --> 39:12.650]  [SPEAKER_11]: Not that we don't have a first-rate engineer and so...
[39:12.650 --> 39:14.150]  [SPEAKER_11]: We just don't have the money for the right equipment.
[39:14.350 --> 39:16.030]  [SPEAKER_11]: And we beg almost incessantly.
[39:16.850 --> 39:19.530]  [SPEAKER_11]: But we have that grimace and sometimes we'll have a report.
[39:20.150 --> 39:26.230]  [SPEAKER_11]: But I don't think very often we really communicate how powerful and how dangerous some of this stuff is.
[39:26.850 --> 39:29.190]  [SPEAKER_11]: And Emmanuel often does manage to communicate.
[39:30.510 --> 39:34.470]  [SPEAKER_11]: So there's a community out there that we're tapping into in lots of different ways.
[39:34.490 --> 39:36.570]  [SPEAKER_11]: I'm going to be back on the air in 20 minutes or so.
[39:36.830 --> 39:38.310]  [SPEAKER_11]: And it's actually going to be a good show tonight.
[39:38.310 --> 39:43.990]  [SPEAKER_11]: We've got somebody who's got the Women's Online Network, which is not particularly a how-to thing on the computer.
[39:44.190 --> 39:44.790]  [SPEAKER_11]: And it belongs.
[39:45.210 --> 39:48.570]  [SPEAKER_11]: But I thought I'd come by and appreciate what Emmanuel's been doing.
[39:48.730 --> 39:48.990]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay.
[39:48.990 --> 39:50.090]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, thanks for stopping in.
[39:50.330 --> 39:52.910]  [SPEAKER_14]: And Dave versed me from the Personal Computer Show.
[39:53.090 --> 39:54.250]  [SPEAKER_14]: And they will be on at 10 o'clock.
[39:54.670 --> 39:57.420]  [SPEAKER_14]: Now we're going to take some phone calls here at WBAI.
[39:58.030 --> 39:59.510]  [SPEAKER_14]: 212-279-3400.
[39:59.870 --> 40:00.410]  [SPEAKER_14]: Good evening.
[40:00.890 --> 40:02.110]  [SPEAKER_15]: Good evening, Emmanuel.
[40:02.490 --> 40:03.870]  [SPEAKER_15]: As always, a great show.
[40:03.990 --> 40:05.670]  [SPEAKER_15]: And as always, a few things to say.
[40:06.130 --> 40:10.490]  [SPEAKER_15]: First, since this may be the end of your show, will you reveal your true identity?
[40:10.490 --> 40:12.870]  [SPEAKER_15]: Or will there be a mystery for the future?
[40:13.410 --> 40:14.850]  [SPEAKER_14]: Oh, you know how life is.
[40:14.930 --> 40:16.310]  [SPEAKER_14]: You never really know who you're talking to.
[40:16.590 --> 40:16.830]  [SPEAKER_15]: Right.
[40:17.110 --> 40:19.670]  [SPEAKER_15]: I was tempted to call you Manny, but I won't.
[40:20.050 --> 40:20.330]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay.
[40:20.830 --> 40:21.610]  [SPEAKER_15]: Two things.
[40:21.790 --> 40:23.250]  [SPEAKER_15]: First of all, this is an observation.
[40:23.890 --> 40:37.270]  [SPEAKER_15]: The term wired, you know, W-I-R-E-D, when applied to a psychological protocol, has, what I just discovered, I wouldn't have guessed, is a negative connotation.
[40:44.910 --> 40:53.330]  [SPEAKER_15]: How they use the term, you know, within the context of technology and telecommunications to relate to human psychology.
[40:54.470 --> 40:57.250]  [SPEAKER_15]: Do you want to jump in, or should I go right to the next thing?
[40:57.250 --> 41:01.350]  [SPEAKER_14]: All right, go to the next thing and make it kind of fast, because this may be the last time we ever have together.
[41:01.690 --> 41:20.430]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay, tell me if I'm a sucker innocently or whether I did the right thing in signing up for a long-distance company whose ad I saw in New Age Journal called Working Assets, which seemed to me at the time from their magazine ad to be a socially responsible,
[41:20.790 --> 41:28.430]  [SPEAKER_15]: politically correct, you know, long-distance carrier in that contextual sense.
[41:28.550 --> 41:30.790]  [SPEAKER_15]: And I'll hang up and savor the rest of the show.
[41:31.010 --> 41:31.330]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay.
[41:31.490 --> 41:32.110]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'll miss you.
[41:32.250 --> 41:32.430]  [SPEAKER_15]: Bye.
[41:32.650 --> 41:32.950]  [SPEAKER_14]: Thanks.
[41:33.250 --> 41:36.150]  [SPEAKER_14]: And hopefully I won't really be going away, but who knows.
[41:37.050 --> 41:38.690]  [SPEAKER_14]: Working Assets is a good deal.
[41:38.830 --> 41:43.870]  [SPEAKER_14]: We interviewed the president of Working Assets on this program a number of months back.
[41:44.690 --> 41:54.690]  [SPEAKER_14]: It basically takes a percentage out of your phone bill, donates it to non-profit organizations, and they charge the same rate as, I believe, Sprint.
[41:54.750 --> 41:58.290]  [SPEAKER_14]: I think it's in conjunction with Sprint that they provide this service.
[41:58.530 --> 42:01.930]  [SPEAKER_14]: They also provide a Visa card, a Working Assets Visa card.
[42:02.290 --> 42:13.730]  [SPEAKER_14]: And that's something that, while we expose rip-offs on this program, we also expose good things, such as cable and wireless's $20 a month 800 number that can be programmed to go anywhere in the country.
[42:14.570 --> 42:17.790]  [SPEAKER_14]: Things like that, that we let people know about.
[42:17.970 --> 42:19.050]  [SPEAKER_14]: Working Assets is one of them.
[42:19.150 --> 42:21.710]  [SPEAKER_14]: So, no, I do not think you are a sucker for taking that.
[42:21.830 --> 42:26.870]  [SPEAKER_14]: I wish more people would think conscientiously when they choose a long-distance phone company.
[42:27.110 --> 42:27.610]  [SPEAKER_14]: Good evening.
[42:28.050 --> 42:28.450]  Hello.
[42:28.590 --> 42:29.190]  I'm on the show.
[42:29.310 --> 42:30.010]  [SPEAKER_14]: You're on the air.
[42:30.650 --> 42:31.430]  [SPEAKER_17]: Hello, Emmanuel.
[42:31.430 --> 42:34.410]  [SPEAKER_17]: I'm sorry to hear that you're leaving us.
[42:34.550 --> 42:35.430]  [SPEAKER_17]: I hope that's not true.
[42:35.730 --> 42:37.170]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, I agree with you.
[42:37.210 --> 42:38.190]  [SPEAKER_14]: I hope it's not true, too.
[42:38.470 --> 42:38.750]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay.
[42:38.750 --> 42:40.730]  [SPEAKER_14]: At the moment, it doesn't look too promising.
[42:41.010 --> 42:41.270]  [SPEAKER_17]: Okay.
[42:41.750 --> 42:47.590]  [SPEAKER_17]: What are some of the things, I'm curious, what are some of the things that you may have done differently as far as your show is concerned?
[42:48.610 --> 42:51.250]  [SPEAKER_14]: Things, you mean, if I had had it to do again?
[42:51.350 --> 42:52.430]  [SPEAKER_14]: Is that the kind of question this is?
[42:52.550 --> 42:53.250]  [SPEAKER_17]: That's the kind of question.
[42:53.810 --> 42:56.110]  [SPEAKER_14]: I don't really think I would have done anything differently.
[42:56.110 --> 42:59.650]  [SPEAKER_14]: I think we're exploring, you know, new things, new technologies.
[43:00.050 --> 43:15.730]  [SPEAKER_14]: And the best way to do that is to actually play with them on the air, as we do here, to ask people how they feel about them, to read stories about what is going on, and basically just get a general overview, speak with the people who are actually doing this kind of thing.
[43:15.810 --> 43:19.310]  [SPEAKER_17]: Earlier this week, I heard a young lady on WBAI.
[43:19.430 --> 43:25.950]  [SPEAKER_17]: She was a computer, I guess, wizard, if there is such a thing.
[43:26.130 --> 43:26.810]  [SPEAKER_17]: Oh, sure.
[43:26.810 --> 43:33.070]  [SPEAKER_17]: I had worked and did research at Bell Labs, and I found that program really, really interesting.
[43:33.270 --> 43:39.430]  [SPEAKER_17]: I found that the subject nature was pretty good.
[43:40.030 --> 43:40.470]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah.
[43:40.630 --> 43:42.730]  [SPEAKER_14]: Are you familiar with that person at all?
[43:42.850 --> 43:44.570]  [SPEAKER_14]: I didn't hear that particular program.
[43:44.710 --> 43:50.030]  [SPEAKER_14]: I'm sure, you know, there are programs on other times of the day that explore interesting issues, but I don't know that particular one.
[43:50.270 --> 43:54.070]  [SPEAKER_17]: It was more computer science, per se, than the hacker.
[43:54.190 --> 43:55.010]  [SPEAKER_14]: Was it the computer show?
[43:55.010 --> 43:56.130]  [SPEAKER_17]: Yeah, it was a computer show.
[43:56.210 --> 43:56.910]  [SPEAKER_17]: It was really good, too.
[43:57.170 --> 43:57.410]  [SPEAKER_14]: Uh-huh.
[43:57.570 --> 43:57.790]  [SPEAKER_17]: Okay.
[43:58.150 --> 44:01.850]  [SPEAKER_17]: You can probably find out about it by asking around there, I would imagine.
[44:02.070 --> 44:04.790]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, I'll have plenty of time to ask around, so I'll do that.
[44:04.930 --> 44:05.050]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay.
[44:05.610 --> 44:06.010]  [SPEAKER_14]: All right.
[44:06.330 --> 44:07.390]  [SPEAKER_14]: 279-3400.
[44:07.610 --> 44:07.930]  [SPEAKER_14]: Good evening.
[44:08.010 --> 44:08.490]  [SPEAKER_14]: You're on the air.
[44:08.950 --> 44:09.150]  [SPEAKER_05]: Right.
[44:09.850 --> 44:10.250]  [SPEAKER_05]: Hello?
[44:10.550 --> 44:11.070]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yes, go ahead.
[44:11.470 --> 44:11.830]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
[44:12.470 --> 44:13.290]  [SPEAKER_05]: A couple things.
[44:13.470 --> 44:18.150]  [SPEAKER_05]: One, about the working assets, I believe they just disassociated with Sprint.
[44:18.410 --> 44:30.670]  [SPEAKER_05]: My girlfriend has that, and something a little bit strange happened where it looked like Sprint was sort of pretending to continue with it, so if they are shifting it over on people's phones, they should be aware of that.
[44:30.750 --> 44:32.590]  [SPEAKER_05]: I don't think that it's connected with Sprint anymore.
[44:32.810 --> 44:33.070]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay.
[44:33.170 --> 44:33.930]  [SPEAKER_14]: Interesting observation.
[44:34.190 --> 44:34.610]  [SPEAKER_05]: One thing.
[44:34.770 --> 44:41.550]  [SPEAKER_05]: And the other, of course, is unfortunately I haven't heard your show too much, but the few times I've caught it, I think it's great.
[44:41.830 --> 44:43.010]  [SPEAKER_05]: Sorry you'll be off the air.
[44:43.010 --> 44:59.210]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I had a question about basically what you were talking about a little while ago, which is somebody I know is working on a technology for going from, I guess, analog voice to digital and back.
[44:59.370 --> 45:07.350]  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, he's using, I guess, very high-speed computers to translate back and forth.
[45:07.350 --> 45:23.090]  [SPEAKER_05]: And for me, the implication would be that they would be able to have everything, all calls, everything monitored, constantly going right into some kind of effectively hard drive and for sifting out whatever they want to sift out.
[45:23.290 --> 45:23.530]  [SPEAKER_05]: Sure.
[45:23.690 --> 45:28.270]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, I mean, you know, digital technology is just that, digital storage.
[45:28.570 --> 45:28.870]  [SPEAKER_14]: Right.
[45:28.970 --> 45:30.490]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's not done now.
[45:30.570 --> 45:39.290]  [SPEAKER_14]: We don't have the capability of doing it now, but it's conceivable that everything that we say on the phone could be stored and we could carry that around with us all our lives if that's what we want.
[45:39.290 --> 45:41.930]  [SPEAKER_14]: If that's the kind of technology we want, that is what we will develop.
[45:42.330 --> 45:43.790]  [SPEAKER_05]: What about the keyword thing?
[45:43.810 --> 45:46.990]  [SPEAKER_05]: I heard the NSA is using that already on keywords.
[45:46.990 --> 45:55.090]  [SPEAKER_05]: If you say certain words automatically, effectively, like a tape recorder clicks on and you say, okay, terrorist, kill Bush.
[45:55.270 --> 46:00.570]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, you know, I've said that enough times over transatlantic cables that I'm sure they're watching me 24 hours a day now.
[46:01.450 --> 46:05.890]  [SPEAKER_14]: I've heard that from many people, and I do believe that something along those lines is happening.
[46:05.890 --> 46:09.150]  [SPEAKER_14]: But if everybody says it, it makes it kind of pointless.
[46:09.350 --> 46:13.610]  [SPEAKER_14]: And a lot of people are saying that now because this particular story is being spread thick and thin.
[46:14.330 --> 46:14.530]  [SPEAKER_05]: Right.
[46:14.850 --> 46:20.110]  [SPEAKER_05]: The last thing is, you know, BAI is constantly monitored by the New York police force.
[46:20.170 --> 46:21.050]  [SPEAKER_05]: I guess you guys know that.
[46:21.050 --> 46:23.290]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, I mean, that kind of thing is probably true.
[46:23.530 --> 46:25.610]  [SPEAKER_14]: You know, why should we be upset that they're monitoring us?
[46:25.710 --> 46:26.790]  [SPEAKER_14]: We're a radio station, you know?
[46:27.130 --> 46:29.830]  [SPEAKER_14]: We're on public airways, so if they want to listen, that's fine with me.
[46:29.990 --> 46:30.190]  [SPEAKER_14]: Right.
[46:30.190 --> 46:36.750]  [SPEAKER_14]: But if they start acting upon things, if they hear somebody say something and they launch an investigation into them, that's quite different.
[46:36.990 --> 46:37.230]  [SPEAKER_14]: Right.
[46:37.310 --> 46:39.310]  [SPEAKER_14]: And that's something we do have to keep an eye out for.
[46:39.730 --> 46:40.010]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay.
[46:40.250 --> 46:41.030]  [SPEAKER_14]: All right, thanks for calling.
[46:41.170 --> 46:41.830]  [SPEAKER_14]: You stay on the air.
[46:41.990 --> 46:42.370]  [SPEAKER_14]: Thanks.
[46:42.990 --> 46:43.110]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay.
[46:43.590 --> 46:43.990]  [SPEAKER_14]: All right.
[46:45.250 --> 46:47.170]  [SPEAKER_14]: 212-279-3400.
[46:47.450 --> 46:48.030]  [SPEAKER_14]: Good evening.
[46:48.150 --> 46:48.670]  [SPEAKER_14]: You're on the air.
[46:49.090 --> 46:49.490]  [SPEAKER_04]: Hi.
[46:50.230 --> 46:50.630]  [SPEAKER_04]: Hello?
[46:50.970 --> 46:51.650]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yes, go ahead.
[46:51.650 --> 46:51.970]  [SPEAKER_14]: I'm sorry.
[46:52.110 --> 46:58.470]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, a few, I don't know how many weeks ago or months ago, I caught your program, I was utterly fascinated.
[46:58.930 --> 47:02.990]  [SPEAKER_04]: I just listened to every word, and I forgot what date.
[47:03.130 --> 47:05.150]  [SPEAKER_04]: I finally found out Wednesday, 9 o'clock.
[47:05.310 --> 47:10.430]  [SPEAKER_04]: I put it on my little bulletin board, a real one.
[47:10.430 --> 47:12.850]  [SPEAKER_04]: And I was not able to catch it here.
[47:13.050 --> 47:15.630]  [SPEAKER_04]: Finally, I said, tonight, tonight, I reminded myself.
[47:15.850 --> 47:20.170]  [SPEAKER_04]: The note is right in front of my eyes, you know, and I don't see it.
[47:20.250 --> 47:24.370]  [SPEAKER_04]: But tonight, I made up my mind, I'd listen, and then I hear you going off the air.
[47:24.470 --> 47:25.530]  [SPEAKER_04]: This is dreadful.
[47:26.010 --> 47:26.370]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh-huh.
[47:26.510 --> 47:26.990]  [SPEAKER_04]: I protest.
[47:29.030 --> 47:32.210]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm going to write in letters, and I'll pick it.
[47:33.150 --> 47:35.750]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, I do admire your conviction.
[47:36.010 --> 47:36.530]  [SPEAKER_04]: I do, man.
[47:36.670 --> 47:38.570]  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, you've got a beautiful program there.
[47:38.570 --> 47:42.290]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay, well, listen, I want to thank you for calling in, and thanks for your support.
[47:42.510 --> 47:45.290]  [SPEAKER_04]: Is this absolute, I mean, that you're going off the air?
[47:45.490 --> 47:47.810]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, it's interesting that you should mention that.
[47:47.990 --> 47:50.310]  [SPEAKER_14]: The program director has just walked in.
[47:50.430 --> 47:53.030]  [SPEAKER_14]: Andrew Phillips is here, so perhaps...
[47:53.030 --> 47:54.830]  [SPEAKER_04]: Hey, Phillips, no way!
[47:55.690 --> 47:58.990]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay, let's give him some time, and we'll take another phone call in a minute.
[47:59.630 --> 48:01.390]  [SPEAKER_14]: Andrew, you're on, I think.
[48:02.090 --> 48:02.770]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, go ahead.
[48:03.030 --> 48:04.610]  [SPEAKER_13]: Emmanuel, good evening.
[48:05.450 --> 48:09.790]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, I don't want to take up much of your time, very, very briefly.
[48:10.370 --> 48:18.990]  [SPEAKER_13]: There'll be no change in this slot before it's been discussed in an open way with the program council.
[48:19.450 --> 48:21.750]  [SPEAKER_13]: Let me very, very briefly say what went down here.
[48:21.950 --> 48:29.710]  [SPEAKER_13]: There has been a move to try and open up some evening programs for some other programs.
[48:29.710 --> 48:33.130]  [SPEAKER_13]: The environment program's been one program we've been trying to find a slot for.
[48:34.410 --> 48:45.390]  [SPEAKER_13]: We thought that Emmanuel, this program, or a program like it, might work where he was earlier in the, well, about a year or so ago, perhaps more than that.
[48:45.670 --> 48:52.350]  [SPEAKER_13]: That is, there's a late-night talk program, which would be a longer program and a different kind of program, but one that he used to do.
[48:52.430 --> 48:54.450]  [SPEAKER_13]: And Emmanuel and I discussed that over the telephone.
[48:54.450 --> 48:56.070]  [SPEAKER_13]: We didn't really get to do it in person.
[48:56.070 --> 49:01.490]  [SPEAKER_13]: I've been away at a conference, the NFCB, National Federation of Community Broadcasters, for two weeks.
[49:01.590 --> 49:02.630]  [SPEAKER_13]: So we really haven't had this.
[49:03.130 --> 49:08.950]  [SPEAKER_13]: In the folio, the copy went through a little bit too quickly, was a little bit too precipitous.
[49:09.730 --> 49:15.610]  [SPEAKER_13]: And it wasn't right, because the issue has not been discussed in the way that I certainly like to have it discussed through the program council.
[49:16.390 --> 49:18.390]  [SPEAKER_13]: And so there's no change until that happens.
[49:18.870 --> 49:30.210]  [SPEAKER_13]: And if the program council feels, and if it's agreeable, finally, and I have to make that decision, ultimately, as the program director, that the show should stay exactly where it is, then that's what will happen.
[49:30.330 --> 49:31.670]  [SPEAKER_13]: But there will be process.
[49:32.390 --> 49:35.550]  [SPEAKER_13]: And Emmanuel has a right to represent his ideas, as he has.
[49:35.770 --> 49:37.410]  [SPEAKER_13]: And that's where it stands.
[49:37.730 --> 49:40.010]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, thanks for stopping in.
[49:40.270 --> 49:45.270]  [SPEAKER_14]: I do want to say that BAI is an incredible place as far as being able to present these ideas.
[49:45.270 --> 49:57.230]  [SPEAKER_14]: And I think what we've built here in the last year is a very unique forum, a way of showing the people what is new, what is being developed, what can be used against them.
[49:57.550 --> 50:10.990]  [SPEAKER_14]: And the audience here is really taking to it, becoming educated about their telephones, about their computers, about the computers and cameras and things that are being developed to watch them.
[50:10.990 --> 50:16.670]  [SPEAKER_14]: And I think what we have is we have a listenership that is alert, alert to what is going on.
[50:16.770 --> 50:29.250]  [SPEAKER_14]: The worst thing we can do is stagnate, is just complain about how everybody is watching us and monitoring what we say and, you know, technology is just moving away from the people.
[50:29.390 --> 50:33.450]  [SPEAKER_14]: The only thing we can really do is move with the technology and understand it.
[50:33.590 --> 50:47.330]  [SPEAKER_14]: And I think that's what we have when we have a misuse program at 8 o'clock and the personal computer show, we have an evening of technology in a way that is presented no place else on any station in the country, as far as I can see.
[50:48.310 --> 50:52.710]  [SPEAKER_14]: And I just, I hope personally that's preserved for quite some time.
[50:52.810 --> 50:58.890]  [SPEAKER_13]: And you know that, you know, just to blow my own trumpet, just because I originally wanted it that way.
[50:59.010 --> 51:03.450]  [SPEAKER_13]: And I suppose it was, it could be seen as a retrograde step to step back from that.
[51:03.450 --> 51:09.510]  [SPEAKER_13]: And just to, Robert Knight also, by the way, on after the show is part of that line-up, if you think of it in an even bigger way.
[51:09.630 --> 51:10.290]  [SPEAKER_13]: At 11.45.
[51:10.590 --> 51:10.930]  [SPEAKER_13]: That's right.
[51:11.030 --> 51:11.470]  [SPEAKER_13]: Worthwatch, yeah.
[51:12.770 --> 51:21.830]  [SPEAKER_13]: What, quite frankly, I mean, we figure, I figure, let's say, let's me be subjective, I figured that the environment program was a great one to follow Michio's show too.
[51:21.930 --> 51:26.370]  [SPEAKER_13]: And we really have a very strong commitment to try and find the right place for that program with an audience.
[51:26.650 --> 51:30.070]  [SPEAKER_13]: That may not, it is the right place, just as yours is the right place.
[51:30.070 --> 51:34.690]  [SPEAKER_13]: And that'll kind of, that'll be the discussion, that'll be the discussion, because they're both right places.
[51:34.790 --> 51:45.470]  [SPEAKER_13]: You're perfectly right, your program does work here, but we've got to look at the very big picture, which must include and encompass a very high-profile slot for the environment.
[51:45.610 --> 51:52.610]  [SPEAKER_13]: But I do respect your work, and it'll definitely be fairly and judiciously worked out.
[51:52.850 --> 51:53.250]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay.
[51:53.270 --> 51:55.110]  [SPEAKER_13]: I hope to everyone's satisfaction, I'm sure it will be.
[51:55.110 --> 51:58.150]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, keep the listeners updated as far as that goes.
[51:58.150 --> 52:00.450]  [SPEAKER_14]: But let me just ask you a very point-blank question here.
[52:00.630 --> 52:01.690]  [SPEAKER_14]: Is there a show next week?
[52:01.870 --> 52:02.390]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yes, there is.
[52:02.490 --> 52:02.690]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay.
[52:02.930 --> 52:08.850]  [SPEAKER_13]: No changes until you get due course, it'll be at least four weeks' notice, either way.
[52:08.970 --> 52:10.690]  [SPEAKER_13]: But you'll be brought in the process, Emmanuel.
[52:10.930 --> 52:11.290]  [SPEAKER_13]: No problem.
[52:11.390 --> 52:18.630]  [SPEAKER_13]: If people do want to write to me, feel free, but you don't have to write Outrage, unless you want to write Outrage, but there will be due process here.
[52:19.070 --> 52:19.430]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay.
[52:19.630 --> 52:19.810]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay.
[52:20.030 --> 52:21.110]  [SPEAKER_14]: Thank you very much for stopping in.
[52:21.110 --> 52:28.450]  [SPEAKER_14]: And, of course, the address that people do want to write in is WBAI, 505 8th Avenue, New York, New York, 10018.
[52:28.870 --> 52:37.430]  [SPEAKER_14]: And we really should give Andrew credit for creating this night in the first place, because it wasn't like this before.
[52:37.610 --> 52:45.830]  [SPEAKER_14]: There was no real harmony, no flowing from one program to another, as we have with Explorations Off the Hook into the Personal Computer Show.
[52:45.830 --> 52:52.910]  [SPEAKER_14]: So, a lot of people out there, I know, listen to all three programs, and you've got to ask yourself, when has that ever happened in the past?
[52:52.910 --> 52:56.990]  [SPEAKER_14]: When have you ever actually been captivated by the radio for three hours?
[52:57.450 --> 52:59.730]  [SPEAKER_14]: You know, three different radio programs, one after the other.
[52:59.830 --> 53:02.410]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's reminiscent of the 1950s.
[53:02.590 --> 53:06.070]  [SPEAKER_14]: But the reason it works is because, hey, that's good programming.
[53:06.070 --> 53:06.670]  [SPEAKER_14]: It works.
[53:06.870 --> 53:07.990]  [SPEAKER_14]: It merges together.
[53:08.310 --> 53:17.850]  [SPEAKER_14]: And if you're going to write an angry letter or make an angry phone call and yell at Andrew, well, at least consider the fact that he made this in the first place.
[53:17.850 --> 53:19.250]  [SPEAKER_14]: He put this together.
[53:20.090 --> 53:21.710]  [SPEAKER_14]: And give him credit for that.
[53:21.830 --> 53:24.770]  [SPEAKER_14]: And tell him that that was the right decision, if that's how you feel.
[53:24.850 --> 53:26.510]  [SPEAKER_14]: And if that's not how you feel, say something else.
[53:26.870 --> 53:29.090]  [SPEAKER_14]: In any event, we don't have much more time here.
[53:29.210 --> 53:31.030]  [SPEAKER_14]: And I'm happy to say we'll be back next week.
[53:31.090 --> 53:34.070]  [SPEAKER_14]: That's really good news for everyone, I think.
[53:34.730 --> 53:38.150]  [SPEAKER_14]: Let's see how many phone calls we can fit in the next three or so minutes.
[53:38.350 --> 53:39.370]  [SPEAKER_14]: So, make it quick.
[53:40.110 --> 53:40.750]  [SPEAKER_14]: Good evening.
[53:41.270 --> 53:41.590]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[53:41.790 --> 53:42.530]  [SPEAKER_02]: Hello, Emmanuel.
[53:42.710 --> 53:43.090]  [SPEAKER_14]: How you doing?
[53:44.410 --> 53:45.130]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to say a couple things.
[53:45.410 --> 53:45.530]  [SPEAKER_14]: Sure.
[53:45.710 --> 53:47.990]  [SPEAKER_02]: First, you were talking about the FBI before.
[53:47.990 --> 53:54.530]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that most of the terrorist acts committed in the United States probably were committed by the FBI itself anyway.
[53:55.150 --> 54:02.250]  [SPEAKER_02]: But that aside, about the show, I think your program has been absolutely outstanding.
[54:02.250 --> 54:07.330]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm a long-time member and supporter of the station.
[54:07.830 --> 54:13.830]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, in fact, I didn't even know the program existed before you came on this time slot.
[54:14.190 --> 54:34.210]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, you always produce very well-prepared material, fascinating, unique material that is really not found anywhere else, that I know of at least, and, you know, the telecommunications and telephones and all that, that's, you know, captivating subject matter that's not really covered anywhere,
[54:34.370 --> 54:36.450]  [SPEAKER_02]: and particularly not in the way you cover it.
[54:36.450 --> 54:42.990]  [SPEAKER_02]: And so, you know, I have nothing but the highest praise for your work, and I do hope you continue on the air.
[54:43.110 --> 54:44.270]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's absolutely fantastic.
[54:45.190 --> 54:55.810]  [SPEAKER_02]: And if Andrew is still there, I hope he doesn't change the format, because, you know, Wednesday night, in fact, you were talking about people listening for hours.
[54:56.190 --> 54:59.630]  [SPEAKER_02]: Wednesday night is the night where I do nothing else but listen to BAI.
[54:59.630 --> 55:07.370]  [SPEAKER_02]: I have, you know, Michio and Explorations, and then your program, the computer program, then I listen to the news, and then Robert Knight.
[55:07.670 --> 55:13.070]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, that's amazing, because that's, like, my favorite day of the whole week.
[55:13.650 --> 55:18.450]  [SPEAKER_14]: Wow, that's something to hear, that, yeah, you live for Wednesday night on the radio.
[55:18.690 --> 55:19.850]  [SPEAKER_14]: That's really nice to hear.
[55:19.950 --> 55:21.870]  [SPEAKER_02]: I don't do anything else that night.
[55:22.290 --> 55:23.770]  [SPEAKER_02]: I don't even work late.
[55:23.910 --> 55:27.950]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, you can do two things at once, but I guess your attention should be focused on the radio.
[55:27.950 --> 55:33.690]  [SPEAKER_02]: Or whatever, but, you know, your program is definitely one of the most fascinating.
[55:33.910 --> 55:35.990]  [SPEAKER_02]: I hope you do stay on in a reasonable time slot.
[55:36.250 --> 55:37.470]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay, listen, thanks for the call.
[55:37.550 --> 55:38.630]  [SPEAKER_14]: We're going to try to get a couple more in.
[55:39.870 --> 55:40.390]  [SPEAKER_14]: Good evening.
[55:40.570 --> 55:41.730]  [SPEAKER_03]: We're going to try to get a couple more in.
[55:41.730 --> 55:42.070]  [SPEAKER_14]: Go ahead.
[55:43.270 --> 55:43.890]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, hi.
[55:44.550 --> 55:45.310]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, you're on.
[55:45.510 --> 55:45.930]  [SPEAKER_14]: Make it clear.
[55:45.970 --> 55:48.190]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I'd like to echo what that last gentleman said.
[55:48.730 --> 55:53.570]  [SPEAKER_03]: If I could make a suggestion, there are a lot of dead air time on Fridays, Saturdays, and Sundays.
[55:53.570 --> 55:56.950]  [SPEAKER_03]: I think she should put quality back and bring you back on one of those nights.
[55:57.830 --> 56:00.350]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, question about cable and wireless.
[56:00.570 --> 56:02.350]  [SPEAKER_03]: 20 bucks a month, that's not a flat rate.
[56:02.430 --> 56:03.750]  [SPEAKER_03]: You pay per phone call.
[56:03.810 --> 56:05.450]  [SPEAKER_14]: Oh, yeah, you pay per phone call on top of that.
[56:05.550 --> 56:11.290]  [SPEAKER_14]: But for 20 a month, you get a programmable 800 number, which no other company offers you.
[56:11.490 --> 56:12.950]  [SPEAKER_08]: What do you mean by a programmable 800 number?
[56:12.950 --> 56:21.450]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, I was using it this week, in fact, to have my 800 number go to my house, and then go to a place in Washington, D.C., and then go to a place in California.
[56:21.830 --> 56:25.030]  [SPEAKER_03]: No, you can transfer it as you pop around the country.
[56:25.030 --> 56:25.490]  [SPEAKER_14]: Exactly.
[56:25.770 --> 56:28.030]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's extremely simple and very convenient.
[56:28.850 --> 56:30.410]  [SPEAKER_14]: So, definitely check that out.
[56:30.590 --> 56:32.350]  [SPEAKER_14]: We're going to try to get one more phone call in.
[56:32.590 --> 56:33.590]  [SPEAKER_14]: Good evening, you're on.
[56:35.350 --> 56:36.270]  [SPEAKER_14]: Hello, you're on.
[56:36.530 --> 56:36.810]  [SPEAKER_18]: Hello?
[56:37.030 --> 56:37.530]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yes, go ahead.
[56:37.610 --> 56:37.990]  [SPEAKER_14]: Make it quick.
[56:38.190 --> 56:38.470]  [SPEAKER_18]: Hi.
[56:39.130 --> 56:48.130]  [SPEAKER_18]: I'd like to ask you, how can new sys-ops get shareware so they can download to their clients and stuff?
[56:48.190 --> 56:49.410]  [SPEAKER_18]: Because I want to start a BBS.
[56:49.710 --> 56:51.070]  [SPEAKER_14]: Ah, you want to start a BBS.
[56:51.070 --> 56:54.150]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay, well, that's quite a topic right there.
[56:54.790 --> 57:05.370]  [SPEAKER_14]: The best way for you to get shareware is simply to call around to other bulletin boards and get your name known, get what you want to do known, and the rest will follow.
[57:05.370 --> 57:09.090]  [SPEAKER_14]: I wish I could go into a little bit more detail than that, but unfortunately we are out of time.
[57:14.500 --> 57:16.360]  [SPEAKER_14]: The program has been off the hook.
[57:16.520 --> 57:17.640]  [SPEAKER_14]: This is Emanuel Goldstein.
[57:20.040 --> 57:23.780]  [SPEAKER_14]: Fortunately, we'll be back next week at this time, I'm happy to say.
[57:24.200 --> 57:27.560]  [SPEAKER_14]: Stay tuned for the Personal Computer Show coming up at 10 o'clock.
[57:27.780 --> 57:29.260]  [SPEAKER_14]: This is WBAI New York.
[57:29.620 --> 57:30.580]  [SPEAKER_14]: See you next week.
[57:30.580 --> 57:40.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: We'll see you next week at 10 o'clock.