and the boys as candidates for hanging the first time any one of you makes a wrong move i'm gonna
kill a whole lot of you and to bring new vitality to every explosive chapter to capture for you the
stark realism of people who love so deeply hate so fiercely live so recklessly all mixed up with
peter boshan monday mornings at 9 30 here on wba i
hey i can't find that on the radio radio free pittsburgh
turn on the truth
i'm all mixed up you know i mean i can't keep away everything's happening
i want your soul
to enter those microphones
and emerge
like ghosts
in the homes of our listeners
there's an army of the mountains
broken blindly
toiling in the darkness
waiting
for what
for you
for your incandescent
brilliant
palpitating talent
all mixed up with peter boshan monday mornings at 9 30 here on wba i
it's nine o'clock
on wba i new york time for off the hook
the telephone keeps ringing
so i ripped it off the wall
i cut myself while shaving
now i can't make a call
it couldn't get much worse
but if they could they would
bumbley bum for the best expect for worse
i hope that's understood
bumbley bum
and a good evening
to everybody out there
the program is off the hook
this is emmanuel goldstein
and
it's a rather special edition of this program because
there's a good chance that it's the last one
we'll fill you in on what we know so far
and invite your phone calls
and talk about the things that we've been talking about
here in this slot now for
i guess over a year
technology
in the eyes of the individual
abuses of technology
at the hands of those in charge
perhaps there's a subtle irony here that's uh that's going way above my head
we'll see if we can figure it out together
to start with uh what is going on here
well as of uh next week
according to uh to some people around here
this show is uh not going to be on anymore
and we don't have any more details
other than that there's been no official notification of any sort
um and
not to not to get into any kind of internal uh internal things here at the radio station
because that's
not a very good thing to do i don't think
other than that
i'll just say that
i'm not exactly ecstatic about this
welcome uh your phone calls
letters whatever you want to uh
you want to do
our phone number here is
212-279-3400
however if you
choose to call during the day
to ask just what in the world is going on
the number is
212-279-0707
i've called it many times in the past
couple of weeks
and our address is
wbai
505 8th avenue
new york new york
10018
uh more on that later
for the moment though
let's take a look at what's been going on in the world
from the rocky mountain news
of march 17th 1992
a computer hacker who pleaded guilty
to breaking into nasa computer systems as
has been ordered to undergo mental health treatment
and not use computers without permission from a probation officer
same old thing that we've been uh we've been going over for uh for months
years in fact
where people
who uh play with computers a little bit too much are looked upon as unhealthy
and a threat to society
some of the worst things ever to be unleashed upon
the average people of the world
richard whitman 24 years old of lakewood colorado
was sentenced to three years probation
by denver u.s district judge
sherman finesilver
in a rare prosecution for breaking into
a computer system
actually i don't know what's so rare about it
there have been quite a few over the past uh
past few years
whitman pleaded guilty last fall
to one count of breaking into a
national aeronautics and space administration computer
prosecutors said whitman had spent four years
trying to get into computer systems
he must not be a very good hacker
it took him four years
to get into a computer system
um i've spent you know
this is not meant to be a confession or anything like that
but i spent a fair amount of time
inside some nasa systems myself
and believe me
it doesn't take all that long to uh
to figure it all out
uh the important thing is
what did this person do once he was inside
did he destroy things
did he sell things to uh
who's our enemy this week
libyans iraqis i don't know
did he sell things to our enemies
wherever they may be
uh did he profit in any way
or did he just log in and say
hey i got in
and now i guess i'll go to jail
or be on probation for three years
and consider it a mental health risk
well uh he admitted gaining access
to nasa's computer via a malfunction
in a bulletin board service
okay
uh actually
i had a little visit with nasa
this past week
down in washington dc
they have offices
in a particular
area of town
and guess what they use
as protection against physical entry
simplex locks
and of course
those are incredibly simple
to get through
uh i won't say
how easy it was
but let's just say
it's it's pretty easy
and
if uh
if computers aren't your thing
well then uh
locks might be the next
best thing
for people that are into
exploration
on page b3
of the march 17th
los angeles times
there's an article
by hugo martin's
headline
security upgraded
at airport
and uh
it's along the same vein
reports that burbank airport
which is one of los angeles's
smaller airports
they're going to install
an eighty three thousand dollar
electronic locking system
to meet
faa requirements
for more stringent control
of access
to non-public areas
sounds kind of like
a simplex situation here
the system will replace
current key
and combination locks
airport employees
will get badges
with mag stripes
doors will be unlocked
by a computer
when authorized personnel
swipe their cards
through readers
adjacent to the doors
the system will allow
for giving
or revoking authorization
on short notice
and
for conditioning authorization
on time of day
or week
all kinds of things
like that
the new system
also records
each employee's
use of a door
allowing airport officials
to determine
which employees
were present
in a secured area
at a given time
computer
locate captain picard
it's all possible
everything is possible
risks
well what are the risks
the usual
insufficiently
thought out system
by the way
this comes from
mark seacoff
off the risks digest
electronic newsletter
the system will not
in fact provide
a good record
of which people
were in a secured area
at a given time
because the doors
aren't being changed
and people can pass
through them
without authorization
when they're opened
by other people
also it's very easy
to duplicate
the mag stripes
on the cards
a photo with the story
suggests that
a combination passcode
could be required
along with the card
but the story
doesn't mention
if this is actually done
let's talk about
bank robbery
an electronics expert
stole more than
17,000 pounds
in a high-tech
robbery spree
plundering dozens
of accounts
from automatic cash
dispensers at banks
according to Paisley
Scotland Sheriff Court
Clydesdale bank chiefs
claimed their dispensing
system was foolproof
and I guess that means
no fools could have
done this
but somebody with
half an intellect
was able to
they told angry customers
that members
of their own households
must have been
responsible for making
withdrawals
without their knowledge
no way could it be
our fault
Anthony Pratt
32 years old
a bank engineer
used a handheld computer
inside bank premises
to record transactions
being made by customers
at hole-in-the-wall
machines outside
he recorded the customer's
secret number
and later used it
on plastic cards
he made with magnetic strips
Pratt of East Kilbride
was finally arrested
after he took cash
from a machine
in Glasgow
he admitted conspiracy
to rob
and also robbery
sentence was deferred
for reports
until April 2nd
okay
now how about
some technical blunders
of a spectacular sort
one of the San Diego
off-airport parking outfits
gave Sutomo Shimura
a time-in ticket
dated February 30th
you can guess
the real date
he says
when I returned
to retrieve my car
on March 6th
I was presented
with a demand
for $3,771
that's at $11 a day
and $1 an hour
that had to be paid
before he was
allowed to leave the lot
the garage attendant
decided that this
wasn't quite right
he re-entered the date
into his computer
and was again told
that I had to pay
$3,771
at this point
the manager was called
for help
the exit line
was getting
extremely long
I have a receipt
here
for $3,771
for parking
the travel accounting
people are going
to have fun
with this one
oh yes
meanwhile
according to
San Jose Mercury News
Britain has just
announced that
makers of electrical
appliances
in that country
must begin
attaching plugs
to the ends
of electrical cords
this is serious
here
Britons for
we don't know
how long
have been required
to buy plugs
and attach them
to their new
toasters
irons and
electrical
what have you
but now
the Royal Society
for the Prevention
of Accidents
this is not dated
April 1st either
this is real
the Royal Society
for the Prevention
of Accidents
only in England
citing its research
into the matter
says
it was surprised
to learn
that it is
common practice
everywhere else
in the world
to sell
electrical goods
with a plug
attached
so England
once again
enters
the Renaissance
era
now
this is an
internet story
for those of you
familiar with the internet
it's that
wonderful network
that connects
computers all over
the world
on our internet
gateways
according to
Steve Belavin
we run a variety
of security monitors
among other things
these detect
attempts to
connect to
services that are
generally of no
legitimate interest
to outsiders
but the alarm
that went off
the other day
was a bit different
the services
contacted
weren't the usual
targets
the answer
turned out
to be fairly
interesting
it seems
that a university
five time zones
away
was installing
a new
network management
system
this program
was
it seems
self-configuring
it went out
and tried
to discover
the topology
of the network
the whole
network
as best I can tell
Captain
we are being
probed
I wonder
how many
sites
were probed
and didn't
notice
before I
alerted
the administrators
there are
all sorts
of other
implications
of course
for one
thing
I don't
know
if I was
being told
the truth
though I
have little
reason to
doubt it
and such
a comprehensive
network map
can be used
to commit
all sorts
of mischief
but as far
as I know
that didn't
happen
this time
and that's
a summary
of the news
of this week
around the world
where phones
and computers
and other
technological
innovations
are wreaking
havoc
and the people
behind them
of course
are responsible
as well
now I'd
like to
draw people's
attention
to a couple
of things
this is
part of a
feature
if this show
wasn't being
cancelled
I would
call it
rip off
of the week
but
if we come
back at some
point
we can
resume this
series
but what
I'm going
to do
now
is
connect
live
to something
that I
would like
to refer
to as
rip off
of the week
now
if you
listened
last week
you heard
a whole
big
expose
on
cocots
pay phones
that call
you collect
and sometimes
don't care
what you
say
whether you
say yes
or whether
you say no
if you
don't hang
up in five
seconds
they'll start
charging you
anyway
and it's
something that
we have
written proof
thanks to
some hackers
that jumped
into trash
bins
and actually
got documentation
of this
that was
the rip off
of last week
however
this week
we've got
something
which I think
is
even better
now
I'm going
to call
up an
800 number
right now
you remember
800 numbers
they're
supposed to
be
toll free
I think
that's
the equivalent
word
and this
particular
800 number
is far
from that
hopefully
our
technology
worked
and we
can listen
to this
what a nice
clear crystal
line
okay
well I
guess we
should be
happy
that it
hung up
on us
let's
get another
line
let's
try this
one more
time
this is
why you
have to
send us
money
folks
because
we
hardly
have
a
state
of the
art
system
here
I don't
know
okay we're
having all
kinds of
technical
problems
here
this is
very
embarrassing
but
that's
the kind
of thing
that happens
let's
just
redial
and
come in
again
we're
attempting
to show
an 800
number
that
doesn't
quite do
what it's
supposed
to do
now let's
see if
we can
get
another
another
dial tone
okay we've
got a dial
tone now
let's see if
we can
actually
dial a
number
here
those of
you that
can
translate
these
little
beeps
will be
most
gratified
to find
out what
it is
this is a
way to
really get
even with
somebody
if you
feel they've
done you
an injustice
let's
listen to
what happens
welcome to
the best
psychics
line where
you can
speak to
the best
and most
requested
psychics
of the
psychic
advisor
network
the cost
of this
call
is a
flat
rate
of
120
dollars
for a
private
reading
that will
last
20 to
30 minutes
what a bargain
to use this
service you must
have a touch
tone phone
and you must
be at least
18 years
of age
you may
bill this
to the
phone you
are calling
from
or to
your credit
card
please hold
the line
for the
appointment
menu
thank you
for holding
no problem
here you will
make one of
three choices
if you have
already made an
appointment and
know your
PIN or PIN
number
press 1
now
if you would
like to speak
to a live
operator
to make an
appointment with
a psychic
please press
2
we'll press
2 but we
won't talk
to a live
operator
you have
reached the
billing menu
you may
make one
of two
choices
to bill
the $120
charge to
your credit
card
press 1
now
to bill
the $120
to the phone
you are calling
from
press 2
should I do
that
sure why
not
the phone
number that
the $120
charge will
be billed
to is
2
1
2
2
7
9
3
4
0
0
that's our
phone number
if that was
the correct
number and
to accept
the $120
charge to
your phone
bill
press 1
now
to bill
to your
credit card
press 2
to not
accumulate
any charges
you may
disconnect
now
ok
all I have
to do
is hit
1
I'm going
to
disconnect
now
because I'm
such a nice
person
but
all I had
to do
was hit
another
touch
tone
1
and WBAI
would have
had $120
for a single
phone call
to an
800 number
too
I mean
what a
great way
to get
even
with people
you know
anybody
I'm told
this works
with pay
phones
as well
especially
those weird
pay phones
that charge
you for
collect calls
sometimes
unbelievable
$120
just like
that
that's
how easy
it is
and
to encourage
people
to save
the program
I'll give
out this
phone number
the next
time we're
on the air
which is
anybody's
guess
our phone
number
here is
212
279
3400
I'll tell
you folks
we've got
to know
these things
we've got
to keep
abreast
of the
latest
quote unquote
innovations
and consumer
taking advantage
of things
because
every week
there is no
shortage
of new
gizmos
that they're
coming out
with to try
and hook
you
whether it's
540
numbers
or 900
numbers
or automated
collect calls
or $120
800 calls
the consumer
is being
victimized
and
in most cases
there's absolutely
nothing they can do
about it
unless they become
educated
and that's what
we're here for
to educate people
to let them know
how to avoid
this kind of thing
and what the
warning signs are
I can't believe it
I was one touchstone
away from
complete catastrophe
there
212-279-3400
we're going to
go to the phones
in just a little bit
first I want to
tell people
I took a tour
of the FBI
this past week
and that was
I guess it was
more fun for them
probably than it was
for me
because I caused
all kinds of
commotion down there
asking questions
I really wasn't
supposed to ask
and looking at
things I wasn't
really supposed
to look at
for instance
they heard you
into this room
where you're
supposed to wait
for the tour
to begin
and a little
contest that I
decided to start
was count the
cameras
see how many
cameras there are
watching you
at any particular
moment
and where they
can be
at one time
I counted
I believe
six different
cameras that
were watching
the same
area
and a device
that was very
unusual
was attached
to an exit
sign
and it just
had a green
light on it
that occasionally
flashed red
and nobody
knew what that
was
but I
brought people's
attention to it
saying hey
smile
you're on a lot
of cameras
at once
now it's
incredible
because there
is no time
throughout the
entire tour
where you're
not being
watched by
something
somewhere
and a friend
of mine
said look
now there's
no cameras
anywhere
see I'm
looking there
are no
cameras
and I was
able to find
this little
bubble
this little
black bubble
coming out
of the ceiling
and I said
guess what's
inside that
the whole
city pretty
much is like
that
all of
Washington
D.C.
has cameras
everywhere you
go
inside the
metro
outside on
the street
inside any
office building
it's
frightening
and what's
most frightening
is the fact
that people
don't know
they're always
on camera
and they
don't know
who's watching
and why
and what
they're looking
for
the way I
deal with
situations
is to
give them
something to
look at
and then you
find out
who's looking
at you
because when
they come out
to
scold you
or find
out what
you're doing
you find
out first
of all
how quickly
they're able
to act
upon something
and who
it is that's
watching
and maybe
even why
and maybe
even what
they do
to people
after they
take them
into custody
you know
it's the
kind of
thing you
have to
find out
you have
to test
the system
that's what
the system
is there
for
the system
is not
there just
to be
listened
to
and have
all the
rules
being followed
oh yeah
it sounds
like anarchy
it sounds
like you know
we're telling
you to break
all the rules
if you don't
know what
the rules
are there
for
if you don't
know why
the cameras
are there
you have
to find
out
you gotta
find out
who's doing
this
and why
and how
come you
didn't know
about it
in the first
place
so DC
is pretty
much like
that throughout
a lot
of monitoring
going on
and that's
just the
the cameras
you don't
know how
many microphones
there are
it's Orwellian
to say the
least
but as far
as the FBI
goes
they were
very proud
of all
their
statistics
at one
point
they said
they had
a 100%
success rate
in tracking
down criminals
using I believe
the soles of
their shoes
now a lot
of people
don't realize
this but
every shoe
manufacturer
voluntarily
and there's
never been a
case where
they haven't
done this
voluntarily
according to
the guy
who was
leading the
tour
they voluntarily
send
a copy
of their
soles
for every
new shoe
they come
out with
down to
the FBI
so that
they have
it on
file
so that
if they
ever find
a shoe
print
or a
shoe
or anything
like that
they can
immediately
identify
what kind
of shoe
it is
I mean
isn't that
just great
that every
shoe company
does this
voluntarily
and the
FBI is
able to
immediately
tell
now what's
not voluntary
is what
car manufacturers
have to do
they have to
send a sample
of their
paint and
metal
to the
FBI
so that
whenever a
car is
involved in
an accident
of some
sort
or pieces
of a car
are left
lying around
they can
send that
down to
the labs
and instantly
tell what
make, what
model, what
year the
car is
it's most
incredible
and they were
telling us
things like
a single
strand of
hair
we can tell
exactly how
old somebody
was
what drugs
they were
using
what their
political
habits
are
all kinds
of amazing
things that
you really
wouldn't expect
them to know
and gosh
they're so
proud of this
one thing
though that
they're not as
proud of
anymore
is the
big map
that they
have in
the lobby
where they
first start
showing you
the tour
I happen to
be with
some Europeans
and they
were flabbergasted
because
whereas I
looked at the
map and I
saw that it
was updated
because it
had a unified
Germany
they looked at
the map and
they saw
Germany with
pre-World War
II borders
in other words
taking up
half of
Poland
and this
is the
map that
the FBI
uses
they're using
a map
with Germany
taking over
Poland
maybe they're
thinking in the
future or something
I don't know
but the guide
certainly had no
idea that this
was the case
and I certainly
believe the people
from Europe
that tend to know
geography better
than we do
here
that's something
to check out
next time you go
down to DC
and take that
tour
another thing
they were
very proud
of the
anti-terrorism
task force
in this country
they were
showing us
all kinds
of weapons
that they
use
and detection
methods
and surveillance
methods
and things
like that
and at that
point I
asked
innocently
that's the
best way
to ask
questions
is innocently
so how
many terrorist
acts have
there been
in the
United States
in the last
few years
I've never
really seen
anybody turn
that particular
shade of red
before
but when
he did
that
he said
well
actually
I don't
believe
there have
been
any
and I
said
well
that's
real
impressive
not a
single terrorist
act
people are
really
doing a
great job
and certainly
are deserving
of all the
money that
comes your
way for
that kind
of thing
so
the FBI
is there
to protect
us
the FBI
is there
to watch
us
and we
can learn
so much
from them
take the
tour
when you
go down
there
it's
it's
really
worth it
and keep
an eye
out for
cameras
everywhere
you go
in DC
it's
it's
an amazingly
educational
experience
I was with
somebody once
when we
first saw
these cameras
this was
years ago
and I
said look
there's a
camera on the
metro
why is there
a camera
on the
metro
and my
friend said
I don't
know
as he
dropped a
candy wrapper
on the
ground
and then a
voice comes
out of
the ceiling
saying pick
that up
oh yeah
they're
watching
the FBI
wants to
keep
watching
too
they want
the American
public
to pay
for wiretapping
that's right
the FBI
contending that
rapidly developing
telecommunications
technology
is hampering
the vital
tool of
wiretapping
has proposed
legislation
that would
require the
industry to
ensure that
improvements
do not
interfere with
the ability
to secretly
record
conversations
basically
they say
if the
problem
is not
solved
and this
is a
quote
terrorists
violent
criminals
kidnappers
drug cartels
and other
criminal
organizations
will be able
to carry
out their
illegal
activities
using the
telecommunications
system
without
detection
now
what they
want to
do is
have
something
built
into
all new
digital
phone
systems
so that
monitoring
will be
easy
perhaps as
easy
as a
couple of
keystrokes
on a
computer
and no
more having
to crawl
through
basements
and go
into central
offices
and attach
bulky
equipment
now
that's all
fine and
good
the FBI
occasionally
has reason
to listen
in on
people
but
the danger
here
is that
by
integrating
it into
the technology
itself
it becomes
an option
and like
many internal
phone systems
and some
organizations
that option
can be
abused
and not
just by
computer hackers
by the FBI
and by all
kinds of
other people
that happen
to gain
knowledge
of this
is this
something we
really want
to do
it's a good
question to
open up
tonight
and any
future nights
that we
might happen
to have
also
do you want
to pay
for that
do you think
the American
taxpayer should
be the
person that
pays for
their own
surveillance
it's
rather absurd
and I think
if they
had just
not said
that
a lot
of people
would have
ignored
this
from the
start
but
unfortunately
that is
what will
get people's
attention
the fact
that they
have to
pay for
it
I think
it's much
more important
that people
are being
spied upon
and watched
and listened
to
I mean
all kinds
of things
are capable
in the future
we can
monitor
for particular
words
in every
conversation
that's ever
said
locally
or long
distance
if we want
to go
that way
we'll develop
the technology
to do it
if we don't
want to develop
that way
then we need
to hear
from people
who say
that
strongly
and adamantly
and will not
take no
for an answer
that's
the FBI
speech
as far as
what's going
on in our
nation's
capital
now
I'm going
to do
one more
thing
since I did
mention
before
that at
least
according
to
the
unreleased
program
schedule
and I
haven't been
told anything
yet
but people
have been
coming up
to me
saying
that
the show
has been
bumped
and if
that is
the case
we may
not get
another chance
to do
this
and that's
why I
want to
do it
now
we've
been doing
this show
for over
a year
a lot of
people have
called in
and sent
letters
some angry
letters
too
saying
you never
say what
the theme
is
you never
say what
that music
is that
you play
and
as sort
of a
present
a thank
you
and
maybe hope
for the
future
we'll
play the
thing for
you
the way
it really
sounds
a couple
of minutes
long
and then
we'll
take
phone
calls
it's
from a
band that
really doesn't
exist anymore
in its
rightful sense
Big Audio Dynamite
yeah there's a
band called
Big Audio Dynamite
2 but it's
not the
same thing
this is a
song written
by Don
Letts who's
no longer
in the band
he's now in
a band called
Screaming Target
and the song
is a flip side
of a 12 inch
single
yeah I dug
around for this
and the song
is called
Much Worse
so we'll play
that
we'll come
back
take your
phone calls
at
212-279-3400
the program
is
Off The Hook
No matter
what the people
say
these songs
lead the way
it's out of
your day
from boss
DJ
Don
The telephone
keeps ringing
so I ripped
it off the wall
I cut myself
while shaving
now I can't
make a cough
and now I got
a headache
or maybe
it's a tooth
I mean no
things couldn't
get much worse
I've gots
to tell the truth
no it couldn't
get much worse
but if they could
they would
Bum Diddly Bomb
but I best
expect the worst
I hope
that's understood
Bum Diddly Bomb
I just run out
of milk
there's no paper
in the loot
Bum Diddly Bomb
and now it started
raining
lightning
thunder
to
the middle
and now
begin to wonder
how bad
can it get
a burger
comes in
through my door
next my TV set
so I light up
so I light up
the cigarette
listen to
some sounds
set my house
on fire
burnt it
to the ground
couldn't get
much worse
but if they could
they would
Bum Diddly Bomb
for the best
expect the worst
Bum Diddly Bomb
I hope
that's understood
Bum Diddly Bomb
Bum Diddly Bomb
Bum Diddly Bomb
Bum Diddly Bomb
Bum Diddly Bomb
Now I've got a console
my brother's on the run
I might have a change of luck
before my day is done
couldn't get much worse
but if they could
they would
Bum Diddly Bomb
for the best
expect the worst
I hope
this understood
Bum Diddly Bomb
Bum Diddly Bomb
C Sunset
The song is called
Much Worse
from Don Letts
and Big Audio Dynamite
it's been our theme here
on Off the Hook
and
yeah I guess I'm talking
over it now
I don't really mean to
but
we don't have
all that much time left
if we're to believe
the schedule
we only have
28 minutes left
in this program
we do want to hear
from listeners
I want to thank
the people that have
called in
because word of this
has gotten out
that the show is
is being
I guess
if you want to use
network terminology
put on hiatus
or whatever
I hate that phrase
it's like you know
being in a coma
or something
but if
that is to be believed
we don't have
that much time
we do want to get in
as many people
as possible
Dave Bursny
from the
Personal Computer Show
which follows this program
and will continue
to be on it
at 10 o'clock
has dropped in
to say hi
it's kind of like
awake I guess
well I hope
it's not awake
I don't really know
quite what's going on
I'm hearing all kinds
of rumors
and I will not
discuss station business
on the air
because I could be
thrown off the air
for that
there's very strict
rules here at BAI
but I came on
a little bit early
I'll be back
on the air at 10
with our stuff
because I really
appreciate a lot
of what Emmanuel
is doing
we have a pretty good
show that talks
about the how
of computers
we've always
prided on being
useful
what to buy
how to use it
how to get help
when you needed it
how to communicate
in the community
I think we do
a pretty good job
and some other
people agree with us
about twice a year
we get around
to talking
about the what
of what computers are
and that's been
real hard on our show
because we have
real strong
disagreements on it
so we try not
to air them
over the radio
but what computers
are doing
is involved
in so many
different parts
of our lives
that it's not
just a how to program
to tell you
what computers
are about
we get to the
dark side of them
every so often
Emmanuel's been
getting to the
dark side of them
again and again
in a way that's
actually most
remarkable radio
I must admit
it's live radio
which means
sometimes it
doesn't work
but every so often
oh I should
I guess that's
one of the
times it doesn't
work
I couldn't have
timed that
better if I was
trying
yeah we sometimes
crash our live radio
but we sometimes
do things
that are brilliant
sometimes it does
work yes
and Emmanuel
sometimes do
things that are
memorable
you see the most
important thing
about live radio
is that the
listeners are able
to feed back
now you can't
really do that
on tape and you
can't really do
that at certain
other times
I happen to think
that this is a
time when a lot
of people come
home from work
a lot of people
come home from
school or are
you know just
kind of settling
down and want
to talk about
the world's
events but you
know you don't
get to hear about
the things that we
talk about in
very many places
in fact there's
people in
California that
listen to this
radio program
you might ask
how that's
possible but they
get tapes of
it because even
the stations out
there the Pacifica
stations out there
don't really discuss
this kind of thing
and I wish they
did I wish there
were more programs
like this I wish
we were on the
satellite
okay so we
talk about how
computers have
power one of the
most dramatic
things that's
happened at the
FCC in the last
few years is when
they threatened to
be censoring the
bulletin boards
and it looked like
they were going to
be imposing cost
to run a computer
bulletin board
ridiculous cost
that would make
them almost
impractical
well the FCC
is a fairness
doctrine it gives
out billions of
dollars of licenses
to channels
it rules on
twenty five and
hundred and
million dollar
well not million
dollar fines
but certainly
million dollar
purchases and
agreements all
the time
powerful important
agency that was
utterly overwhelmed
in a way that
had never happened
before when they
came up against
the computer users
that people getting
on the board was
talking about what
were happening in
the community and
what to do about
it and never
before had the
FCC gotten so
many phone calls
and so many letters
on an issue that
they shelved the
bloody thing for a
couple of years
even though everybody
the FCC was probably
in favor of the
third church
it's kind of like
the ham radio
people they have
a lot of clout
too those people
and it's a
community it's a
new community
that is kind of
not understood
by the rest of
society and
it's come to be
respected and
hopefully it will
be coming to be
respected in the
future you know
I'll tell you
something that
bothers me the
most though is
that I worry
about some of
the things that
we've discussed
over the past
year freedom of
speech we
recently talked
to a fellow
out in San
Diego that
lost his
computer bulletin
board and
lost a good
part of his
security to the
police department
out there that
came and broke
into his house and
took his computer
and really terrorized
his family because
he ran an adult
oriented bulletin
board and they
were saying that
he was peddling
obscenity which of
course he wasn't
but what happened
was we gave him a
voice here on the
radio and he
discussed this we
were able to talk
to him technically
about what was
going on what was
actually happening
a lot of BAI
listeners called up
the police department
out there outraged
and that really did
make a difference he
got his stuff back
I'm not saying it's
because of that but
it sure must have
helped it must have
done something when
people speak out you
know things things do
happen now go ahead
Dave something you
never saw on the
radio yeah right you
don't see things on
the radio it's like
me and Joe and Hank
could do the computer
show and we hear
some particularly
egregious violation
of privacy or big
brother type practice
and we look at each
other and we grimace
and we groan and
sometimes we even
talk about it am I
coming through I lost
my earphones oh I'm
sorry no you're fine
I'm fine okay I'm
just not in my own
ears I don't have
switch but I know
everything's fine
BAI is a wonderful
place we do remarkable
things and we do it
with the most incredibly
ineffective equipment
it's amazing we
manage to keep the
signal going it is
not that we don't
have a first rate
engineer and so we
just don't have the
money for the right
equipment and we beg
almost incessantly but
we have that grimace and
sometimes we'll have a
report but I don't think
very often we really
communicate how powerful
and how dangerous some
of this stuff is and
Emmanuel often does
manage to communicate so
there's a community out
there that we're tapping
into in lots of
different ways I'm going
to be back on the air in
20 minutes or so and
it's actually going to
be a good show tonight
we've got somebody who's
got the women's online
network which is not
particularly a how-to
thing on the computer
and it belongs but I
thought I'd come by and
appreciate what Emmanuel's
been doing
okay well thanks for
stopping in and
diversity from the
personal computer show
and they will be on at
10 o'clock now we're
going to take some
phone calls here at
WBAI 212-279-3400
good evening
good evening Emmanuel
as always a great show
and as always a few
things to say first
since this may be the
end of your show will
you reveal your true
identity or will there
be a mystery for the
future
oh you know how life is
you never really know
who you're talking to
right I was tempted to
call you Manny but I
won't
okay two things first of
all this is an
observation
the term wired you know
W-I-R-E-D when
applied to a psychological
protocol has what I
just discovered I
wouldn't have guessed
is a negative connotation
how they use the term
you know within the
context of technology
and telecommunications
to relate to human
psychology do you want
to jump in or should I
go right to the next
thing
go to the next thing
and make it kind of
fast because this may
be the last time we
ever have together
tell me if I'm a sucker
innocently or whether I
did the right thing
and signing up for a
long distance company
whose ad I saw in a
new age journal called
working assets which
seemed to me at the
time from their magazine
ad to be a socially
responsible politically
correct you know long
distance carrier in that
contextual sense and I'll
hang up and save the rest
of the show okay I'll
miss you bye thanks and
hopefully I won't really
be going away but who
knows working assets is a
good deal we interviewed
the the president of
working assets on this
program a number of months
back it basically takes a
percentage out of your
phone bill donates it to
to nonprofit organizations
organizations and they they
charge the same rate as I
believe Sprint I think it's
in conjunction with Sprint
that they that they provide
this service they also
provide a visa card a
working assets visa card and
that's something that while
we expose ripoffs on this
program we also expose good
things such as cable and
wireless is $20 a month
800 number that can be
programmed to go anywhere in
the country things like that
that we that we let people
know about working assets is
one of them so no I do not
think you were a sucker for
for taking that and wish
more people would think
conscientiously when they
when they choose a long
distance phone company
good evening
hello I'm on the show
you're on the air
hello Emmanuel I'm sorry to
hear that you're leaving
leaving us I hope that's
not true
well I agree with you I
hope it's not true too
okay at the moment it
doesn't look too too
promising
okay
what are some of the
things I'm curious what
are some of the things that
you may have done
differently as far as your
show is concerned
things you mean if I had
had it to do again is that
the kind of question this
is
I don't really think I
would have done anything
differently I think we're
we're exploring you know
new things new technologies
and the best way to do that
is to actually play with
them on the air as we do
here
to ask people how they feel
about them to read stories
about what is going on and
and basically just get a
general overview speak with
the people who are actually
doing this kind of thing
earlier this week I heard a
young lady on WBAI she was
a computer I guess wizard
if there is such a thing
but she had worked and did
research at Bell Labs and I
found that program really
really interesting I found
that the subject nature was
pretty good and are you
familiar with that person at
all?
I didn't I didn't hear that
particular program I'm sure
you know there are programs
on other times of the day
that that explore interesting
issues but I don't know
that particular one
it was more for us it was
more computer science per se
than the hacker
was it the computer show?
yeah it was a computer show
it was really good too
uh-huh
okay and you can probably find
out about it by asking around
there I would imagine
well I'll have plenty of time
to ask around so I'll do that
okay
all right 279-3400 good
evening you're on the air
right
hello
yes go ahead
yes um a couple things
one about the working
assets I believe they just
uh disassociated with Sprint
um my girlfriend has that
and and something a little
bit strange happened where
it looked like Sprint was
sort of pretending to
continue with it so if if
they are shifting it over on
people's phones they should
be aware that I don't think
that it's connected with
Sprint anymore
okay interesting observation
one thing and the other
of course is uh unfortunately
I haven't heard your show
too much but uh the few
times I've caught it I
think it's great sorry
you'll be off the air and
I had a um a question
about basically what you
were talking about a little
while ago which is um
somebody I know is working
on a technology for going
from I guess analog voice to
digital and back I mean he's
he's uh using I guess very
high speed computers to um
to translate back and forth
and for me the implication
would be that they would be
able to have everything all
calls everything monitored
constantly um going right
into some kind of effectively
hard drive and for for sifting
out whatever they want to
sift out and I sure well I
mean you know digital technology
is just that digital uh uh
storage right it's not it's
not done now we don't have
the capability of doing it
now but it's it's conceivable
that everything that we say on
the phone could be stored and
we could carry that around
with us all our lives if if
if that's what we want if
that's the kind of technology
we want that is what we will
develop what about the
keyword thing I heard the
NSA is is is using that
already on keywords if you
say certain words
automatically uh effectively
like a tape recorder clicks
on and and you're you know
you say okay uh terrorist
kill bush well you know I've
said that enough times over
transatlantic cables that I'm
sure they're watching me 24
hours a day now uh I've I've
heard that from many people
and I do believe that
something along those lines
is happening but if
everybody says it uh it
makes it kind of pointless
and a lot of people are
saying that now because
this uh this particular
story is being spread thick
and thin right the other
the last thing is you know
BAI is is constantly
monitored by the by the
New York police force I
guess you guys know well I
mean that kind of thing is
probably true but you know
why should we be upset that
they're monitoring us we're
a radio station you know we're
on public airway so if they
want to listen that's fine
with me right uh but if
they if they start acting
upon things if they hear
somebody say something and
they launch an investigation
into them that's quite
different right and that's
something we we do have to
keep an eye out for okay all
right thanks for calling
stay on the air thanks all
right uh 212-279-3400 good
evening you're on the air
hi hello yes go ahead I'm
sorry yeah a few I don't know
how many weeks ago a month
ago I caught your program I
was utterly fascinated I I just
listened to every word and I
forgot what day I finally
found out Wednesday nine
o'clock I put it on my little
um bulletin board a real one
and I was not able to catch it
here finally I said tonight
tonight I reminded myself the
note is right in front of my
eyes you know and I don't see
it but tonight I made up my
mind I'd listen and then I hear
you going off the air this is
dreadful
I need you I protest I'm going
to write in letters and I'll
pick it
well I I do admire your
conviction
I need you man I mean you've
got a beautiful program there
okay well listen I want to
thank you for calling in and
uh thanks for your support
is this absolute I mean that
you're going off the air
well it's uh it's interesting
that you should mention that
the uh the program director has
just walked in Andrew Phillips is
here so uh perhaps uh hey
Phillips no way okay let's
let's give him some time and
uh we'll take another phone
call in a minute uh Andrew
you're on I think yeah go ahead
Emmanuel good evening um yeah
I I uh I've I don't want to
take up much of your time very
very briefly uh there'll be no
change in this slot before it's
been discussed in a in an open
uh way with the program council
uh let me very very briefly say
what went down here uh there has
been a move to um try and open
up some evening programs uh for
for some other programs the
environment programs being one
program we've been trying to find
a slot for um we we thought that
Emmanuel this program um or a
program like it might work where
he was uh earlier um in the uh
well about a year or so ago and
perhaps more than that that is as
a late night talk program which
would be a longer program and a
different kind of program but one
one that he used to do and
Emmanuel and I discussed that
over the telephone we didn't
really get to do it in person I've
been away at a conference the
NFCB National Federation of
Community uh broadcasters for two
weeks so we really haven't had
this uh in the folio the copy went
through a little bit too quickly
was a little bit too uh precipitous
uh and it wasn't right because the
issue has not been discussed in the
way that I certainly like to have it
discussed through the program
council uh and so there's no change
until that happens uh and and if and
if the program council feels and if
it's agreeable finally and I have to
make that decision ultimately as the
program director uh that the show
should stay exactly where it is and
that's what will happen but there will
be process uh and Emmanuel has a right
to represent his ideas as he has and
uh that's that's where it stands
well thanks for uh for stopping in I
do want to say that BAI is an
incredible place as far as being able
to present these ideas I think what
we've built here in the last year is
uh is a very unique forum a way of
uh of showing the people what is new
what is being developed what can be
used against them and uh the audience
here is um is is really taking to it
uh becoming educated about their
telephones about uh their computers
about the computers and cameras and
things that are that are being
developed to watch them and I think
what we have is we have a
listenership that is uh alert alert to
what is going on the worst thing we
can do is stagnate is just uh complain
about uh how everybody is is watching
us and monitoring what we say and uh
and you know technology is just moving
away from the people the only thing we
can really do is move with the
technology and understand it and I
think that's what we have when we have
misuse program uh at eight o'clock and
the personal computer show we have an
evening of uh of technology in a way
that is presented no place else on any
station in the country as far as I can
see and um I just I I hope personally
that's uh that's preserved for quite
some time and you know that you know
just to blow my own trumpet just
because I originally oh yeah wanted it
that way and and I suppose it was it
could be seen as a retrograde step to
step back from that and just to Robert
Knight also by the way on after the show
is part of that lineup if you think of
it in an even bigger way 1145 that's
worth watch yeah um what quite quite
frankly I mean we we figure I figure
let's say let's me be subjective um I
figured that the environment program
was a great one to follow michio show
too and we we really have a very strong
commitment to try and find the right
place for that program with an audience
that may not it is the right place just
as yours is the right place and that'll
that'll kind of that'll be the
discussion that'll be the discussion
because they're both right places
you're perfectly right your program does
work here but we got to look at the
the very the very big picture which
must include and encompass a very
uh high profile slot for the
environment but I do respect your work
and uh it'll definitely be fairly and
uh judiciously uh worked out okay to
everyone's satisfaction I'm sure it will
keep the listeners uh updated as far as
that goes but uh let me just ask you a
very point-blank question here is there
a show next week yes there is okay no
changes until you get uh due due course
it'll be at least four weeks notice
either way but you'll be brought in the
processor manual no problems if people
do want to write to me feel free but
you don't have to write outrage unless
you want to write outrage but there will
be due process here okay okay thank you
very much for stopping in and of course
the address of people do want to write
in is wbai 505 8th avenue new york new york
10018 and uh we really should uh give
andrew credit for creating this night in
the first place because uh it wasn't like
this before there was no real harmony no
flowing from one program to another as
we have uh with explorations into off the
hook into the personal computer show a
lot of people out there I know listen to
all three programs and you gotta ask
yourself when has that ever happened in
the past when have you ever actually been
captivated by the radio for three hours
you know three different radio programs
one after the other it's uh reminiscent of
the 1950s but the reason it works is
because hey that's good programming it
works it merges together and if you're
going to uh if you're going to write an
angry letter or make an angry phone call
and and and yell at andrew well at least
consider the fact that he made this in
the first place he he put this together
and uh give him credit for that and tell
him that that was the right decision if
that's how you feel and if that's not
how you feel say something else in any
event we don't have much more time here
and I'm happy to say we'll be back next
week that's uh that's that's really good
news uh for for everyone I think uh let's
see how many phone calls we can fit in the
next uh three or so minutes so make it
quick good evening yes hello Emmanuel how
you doing oh hi I'd like to say a couple
things sure first you're talking about the
FBI before and I think that most of the
terrorist acts committed in the United
States probably were committed by the FBI
itself anyway but uh that aside um about
the show I think your your program has been
absolutely outstanding I would I'm a uh you
know a longtime member and and supporter of the
station and uh I think and and I and in fact I
didn't even know the program existed before you
came on this time slot and you know you always
produce um very well prepared material
fascinating unique material that is really
not found anywhere else that I know of at
least and you know the telecommunications
and telephones and all that that's you know
captivating um uh subject matter that's not
really covered anywhere and particularly not in
the way you cover it so I've you know I have
nothing but the highest praise for your work and
I do hope you uh continue on the air it's
absolutely fantastic and um if Andrew is still
there um I hope he doesn't change the format
because it uh you know Wednesday night in fact
uh you're talking about people listening for
hours Wednesday night is the night where I do
nothing else but listen to BAI I have you know um
uh Michio and um explorations went in your
program the computer program then I listened to
the news and then Robert Knight and you know
that's that's amazing because um that's like
my favorite day of the whole week
wow that's that's that's something to hear
that uh yeah you live for Wednesday night on
the radio that's that's really nice to hear
don't do anything else that that night I
don't even work late well you can do two
things at once but uh I guess your attention
should be focused on the radio or whatever
but uh you know your program is is definitely
um one of the most fascinating I hope you do
stay on a reasonable time slot okay listen
thanks for the call we're gonna try to get a
couple more in good evening go ahead uh yeah
hi yeah you're on make it I'd like to echo
what uh that last gentleman said and if I can
make a suggestion uh there are a lot of dead
air time on Fridays Saturdays and Sundays I
think she should put quality back and bring you
back on one of those nights uh question about
cable and wireless 20 bucks a month that's not
a flat rate is you pay per phone call oh yeah
you pay per phone call on top of that but
the for 20 a month you get uh a programmable
800 number uh which no other company offers
you what do you mean by a programmable
well uh I I was using it this week in fact
uh to have my 800 number go to my house and
then go to a place in Washington DC and then
go to a place in California it's no you can
transfer it as you as you as you pop around
the country exactly it's extremely simple and
and very convenient so uh definitely check that
out we're going to try to get one more phone call
in good evening you're on hello you're on
hello yes go ahead make it quick hi um I'd like
to ask you how can new uh sysops uh get uh shareware
so they could download to to their uh you know
clients and stuff because I want to start a bbs
ah you want to start a bbs okay well that's uh that's
quite a topic right there uh the best way for you to get
shareware is simply to call around to other bulletin boards
and uh get your name known get what you want to do known
and uh the rest uh will follow I wish I'd go into a little bit
more detail than that but unfortunately we are out of time
the program has been off the hook this is emmanuel goldstein
fortunately we'll be back next week at this time I'm happy to say
stay tuned for the personal computer show coming up at 10 o'clock
this is wbai new york see you next week
you