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on a Wednesday night
That means it's time for Off the Hook
The telephone keeps ringing
So I ripped it off the wall
I cut myself while shaving
Now I can't make a call
It couldn't get much worse
But if they could, they would
Bum Diddly Bum
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Bum Diddly Bum
And a very good evening to one and all
The program is Off the Hook
We look at technology
We look at telephones, computers
And Big Brother
And see if he's looking at us
And we take phone calls
Among other things
Tonight, we have a rather interesting program
Something we don't usually do
Is talk to what might be referred to
As the other side of law enforcement
We have Don Delaney from New York State Police here
Along with Fiber Optic
Who is a well-known computer hacker
And sometimes the two of them
Some are unopposing sides
Sometimes not
And tonight, we'll have a forum
For both sides
Law enforcement and hackers
We'll see if there's common ground to stand upon
And we'll take calls from listeners
At 212-279-3400
Don Delaney is in the studio with us
From New York State Police
Is that correct?
That's correct
And you head the computer fraud department
Or is it just technology in general?
No, I supervise the Major K-Squad
And we have a separate unit up in Albany
Which has two men assigned
And they do the investigation strictly on computer crimes
And it's a service provided to all the law enforcement
In New York State
I see
And how long have you been involved
With that particular aspect?
Well, for two years
And you must have learned quite a deal
With this kind of thing
When you first started
What did you imagine
High-tech criminals to be like?
Well, I didn't really have any idea
What they were like
I hadn't done any of those types of investigations
Until we got a complaint
And we worked on the case
And eventually made an arrest
And from there
We began to get more and more calls
From corporate America
That were suffering losses
And we continued to investigate
And we haven't stopped
You mentioned the calls come from corporate America
It only comes from that kind of complainant
Not individuals
The great majority of them
Come from the big companies
Such as the telephone companies
That are losing a lot of money
And small companies also
They lose money
Also when their PCs
Or their small systems are attacked
Do you see many cases
Where personal computers are attacked?
No
We have had
Up in Albany
We had a case
Where there were five different
PCs that were attacked
By what I call
A malicious hacker
And he actually
Was able to do
Hardware damage
To the systems
Now the first case
That you were involved in
What was that?
It was American SOAR
Up in Massachusetts
An individual
On Long Island
Was dialing into
Their Unix mainframe
On an 800 number
Trying to put
A bulletin board system
Up in their computer system
He had erased some files
Done some damage
And we traced it back
Did some surveillances
Determined who it was
Executed a search warrant
At his house
And arrested him eventually
And what became of that?
He pled guilty
To a Class A misdemeanor
Which
And then got probation
And community service
Now
Of course
Lots of people
In the hacker world
Look upon law enforcement
As misguided
As
Devoting too much
Firepower
Towards executing
These warrants
And tracking people down
How do you respond to that?
Well I don't think
We
Have spent too much
Time
Or used too many people
For it
Or too much firepower
We generally go in
On our search warrants
By knocking on the door
And having the people
And the residents
Open the door to us
We've done that
In almost every single case
And we've done
More than 30 search warrants
In the past two years
There's been a couple
Of exceptions
Now
Being involved
In this kind of field
Computer hackers
Are not really the people
That you're after
Most of the time
It would seem
It's people
Selling phone codes
And making
Modifications to cellular phones
And drug deals
And that kind of thing
Those are the people
You're after more often
Is that right?
Much more often now
From a few of the cases
That we started
There was not
The tremendous
PBX fraud
Or cellular phone fraud
Two years ago
When I first started
Doing these types of cases
But what happened was
When people on the east coast
He had learned how to rechip
Cellular phones
Specific phones
That industry took off
Wildly in a call selling
Type of industry
On the streets
And out of apartments
And we had also
The people that are using
The PBXs of the companies
That they dial into
And then out dial
Long distance
And the companies
Receive the bills
Also those that
Have call diverters
Some of the individuals
Such as plumbers
That have call diverters
They have also been complainants
And
But most of it right now
Is telephone fraud
More so than computer crime
And how much of this
Would you say
Is preventable
I mean diverters
Are things that have
Been around now
For years
Yet they still have
The same flaws
Where they drop
To a dial tone
And allow you to call
Anywhere in the world
Why don't they just fix it
Well it's
You know
The manufacturers
Will say they're
Spread out all over the place
We don't know who have them
Certainly with the problems
That the PBXs
Are experiencing
The companies that have these
I think that the corporations
That make these things
And the vendors
That sell them
Have a moral
Ethical responsibility
To go back to these
Corporations
That they sold them to
And give them the fixes
For the holes in the system
And tell them how to
Properly secure their system
Clearly they're not doing it
Because the average
Complainant that's calling
Into me
In a one month period
Is suffering somewhere
Between $35,000
And $100,000 in loss
Interesting
Let me ask you
Something
I'm going to ask
The same question
To fiber optic
What's your definition
Of a hacker
Well it means
A lot of different things
To many people
I use it
Generally
Referring to
The computer criminal
Who's
Into somebody else's system
Where he doesn't belong
And he's trying
One of many different
Methods
Of trying something new
In that system
It can be
A telephone company
Computer that he's hacking
Some of those
Will call the person
Doing that a freak
A telephone freak
Or a cracker
But it has a number
Of different meanings
To different people
Do you see the meaning
As overall negative
Or just
Well the news media
Has given it a terribly
Negative connotation
In the past few years
Originally it had to do
With the
Those
In MIT and Stanford
Who were hacking
Which were
To advance their
Abilities in computer systems
And are really
Thought of pretty
As a noble group
Of people
And consider themselves
That way too
Not malicious
But today the word
Has a connotation
Of maliciousness
Alright with that
I'd like to introduce
Fiber optic
Who's been in the studio
Before
And
Let's start with
Your definition
Of a hacker
Is it anything
Similar to what
Don Delaney's is
My definition
Of a hacker
Well before I go
Into that
I just want to
Mention about
A lot of people
Aren't aware of the fact
That back at MIT
And Berkeley
And Stanford
In the 60s
A lot of the
Individuals who
Became known as
The classic hackers
Or the noble hackers
Were you know
While being very
Moralized people
Let's remember
How they gained access
To the machines
That they were accessing
They actually
Gained access
To the machines
Through physical
Means
Whether it was
Picking a lock
To a computer lab
Whether it was
Borrowing pieces
Of equipment
In which to hack
Whether it was
Hardware hacking
If they were designing
Some electronic
Gizmo
Or doodad
The fact remains
That they were
Doing something
They shouldn't
Have been doing
You know
For whatever
Purpose
Of their own
Which is similar
To the modern meaning
And it's
It's not
Without its
Pseudo-illegal
Overtones
And that should be
Kept in mind
That these weren't
The perfect
Citizens
Or the perfect
Individuals
Although you know
People could argue
They were geniuses
And extremely
Intelligent people
Which many of them
Were
The fact remains
That the means
At which they
Gained access
To things
Did involve
In you know
Using loose terms
Getting into
Or breaking into
In order to access
The things that they did
The reason this came about
At the time period
In the 60s
Was that computers
Were a lot different
They didn't fit
On someone's table
They filled entire rooms
And was necessary
To run these machines
They needed large
Staffs of people
And large amounts
Of electricity
And air conditioning units
Well the
The people
Who maintained
These machines
Were often
Very bureaucratic
In their way of thinking
And were often
Decrepit of all
Creativity
And or intelligence
And their only
Task was
The one they were
Entrusted with
Was to keep people
In an orderly fashion
On lines
Long lines
You'd have to wait on
After filling in
A piece of graph paper
With your program
You'd wait on
A long line of students
To hand your program
To someone that was
Known as one of
The high priesthood
And then
Then they'd
Feed it through
A card punching machine
To print out
To punch out
A holo-ereth card
Then you'd wait
On another line
To which they'd
Take your card
And feed it into
The huge mammoth
Of a machine
And then you'd have
The results of your
Program sent to you
Well the original
Hackers in the 60s
Thought this was
Ridiculous
There was no
Creativity involved
It was batch
Processed
Bureaucratic nonsense
So what they did
Was that they
Broke into the
Computer labs
Late at night
To play with
These machines
And they did
Some pretty
Amazing things
With them
So what you're
Basically saying
Is that sometimes
It's necessary
Not to follow
The rules
In order to
Further progress
Yeah and I
Think that's
True throughout
History
Where do you
Draw the line
Though
Who makes
The rules
Who says
This is going
Too far
Where do you
Draw the line
Oh I draw the
Line if there
Was some
Physical
Reasonable
Noticeable
Damage
And I'm not
Talking about
Where some
Foolish company
Claims well the
Damage was the
Fact that they
Were on there
At all
That's nonsense
Damage is done
Where there's
Some huge
Monetary loss
Whether there's
Some sort of
Downtime
Because someone
Destroyed a system
Or did something
Malicious
Whether they
Intended to or
Not
The fact remains
It still
Happened
It caused
The company
To lose
Money
Whether they
Actually physically
Damage something
Like say for
Instance these
Guys broke into
The computer lab
And I'm not
Saying they were
Bumbling idiots
It's very unlikely
That these people
Would have said
Whoops and broke
Something
But because it
Simply didn't
Happen
But say for
Instance they
Did these were
Huge expensive
Machines that
Were given to
The university
That which
Which were
Funded by the
Government for
Government research
Projects and
It would require
Large sums of
Money to repair
The machines in
The event that
A piece of
Equipment was
Broken
I've heard stories
Where they would
Play tricks on
The people that
They called the
High priests
Who were the
People that
Maintained these
Machines with an
Iron grip and
What they would do
Is that when they
Would sneak in there
And someone with
Authority would
Walk into the
Lab they'd
Take a component
That looks like
It belonged in
The machine and
They'd open one of
The panels and
They'd throw the
Component on the
Floor and
They'd say
Whoops I think
I broke something
And it would
Make one of
These authoritative
Individuals go
Crazy but it
Was a good joke
Though
Now Don Delaney
Let me ask you
Do you think the
Reason that
Computer crime or
People trespassing
Into computers is
Looked upon with
Such horror is
Because the
Victims don't
Really know what
It is that's
Been done
Unlike walking
Into a room
Where you can
See what's
Been broken
With a computer
System you
Don't know
What they've
Planted what
They've seen
Things like that
Most of the
Times the
Systems administrator
Can tell exactly
What happened
He knows who's
Been in there
And I think
That the
Corporations of
The systems
Administrator of
Any system
That's been
Hit is annoyed
Because someone's
In a system
And they don't
Belong in there
And they have
The potential for
Doing damage
Wiping out that
Or whether or
Not the system
Is backed up
If the person
Doesn't belong there
They don't belong
There and it
Goes back to the
Same argument
That's been used
Over and over
Again somebody
Shouldn't be in
Your house
They shouldn't
Be there
Admittedly at
Stanford or
Any of the
Universities where
Hacking occurred
If the person
Picked a lock
And he went
Into the computer
Room and was
Spending time in
An area where
He didn't belong
The university
Could have had
The person
Arrested for
Trespass
The laws
The laws were
In a place
For that
But not
Specifically
For computer
Hacking
Today we have
All sorts of
Computer crime
Laws
Both federally
And on the
State level
Which involve
Computer trespass
And computer
Tampering
And illegal
Access on the
Federal law
Side
So now there
Are specific
Laws
And Fyra can
Say what he
Believes would
Be the right
Thing but it's
Not in accordance
With the law
And asking me
The same question
I would have
To answer
When it is
Against the law
It is illegal
And if there
Is a complaint
We take action
Now you brought
Up the analogy
Of being in
Somebody's home
Which is a very
Popular one
But the penalties
Are not quite the
Same when
Somebody breaks
Into a house
And when they
Break into a
Computer system
A good example
Is the hackers
In Atlanta
Georgia who
Went to jail
For a couple
Of them over
A year
For accessing
A system
That didn't
Have a password
Other people
That have
Downloaded
Information
And been
Sentenced as
If they had
Stolen things
Worth millions
Of dollars
Do you think
We're approaching
The point where
They'll be dealt
With the same
In other words
If you trespass
Onto a computer
System you'll be
Dealt with the
Same way as
If you trespass
Onto somebody's
Property
No I don't
Think so at all
I think that the
Laws are going
To be pretty much
In New York
State stay the
Same as they
Are
Burglary in
New York
State is a
More significant
And with much
Higher degree
Penalties than
Computer trespass
With Riggs and
Darden they
Went they
Were arrested
For certain
Crimes they
Went to trial
They were found
Guilty there
Were federal
Sentencing guidelines
That were followed
And they were put
In jail for a
Certain period of
Time on the
Federal level
Those were laws
That were broken
And that's what
Was followed I
Don't think that
The judicial system
In the United
States can do
Otherwise
Even though at
The same time
That they were
Pleading guilty
Their co-defendant
So to say
Was being found
Not to have a
Case against him
Because the
Document that
They said was
Worth $80,000
Was only worth
$14,000
Well a Craig
Neidwoff case
Is a separate
Issue
Totally
And the case
Was dropped
By the prosecutor
In that case
Because of the
Dollar value
Difference that
They discovered
Were they not
Sentenced in
Atlanta as if
That document
Had been worth
$80,000
I'm not sure
Seems to me
That if it
Had been $14
They wouldn't
Have gotten
Over a year
I don't think
So
Okay
Now as far
As future
Laws
Do you think
There will be
Any future
Laws in
New York
State
And what
Laws are
Being
Modified
There's several
Proposals
On the board
That I've
Seen
Which specifically
Target
Certain types
Of telecommunications
Fraud
Such as going
Into
Using a
Rechipped
Cellular
Phone
Such as
Going into
A corporation's
System and
Then out
Dialing
Obtaining dial
Tones that
Don't belong
To you
And then
Having someone
Else charged
Back because
These very
Quickly add up
To tremendous
Bills
The long
Distance
Carriers are
Making the
Small company
Responsible to
Pay those
Bills
There's many
Lawsuits
Going back
And forth
Now between
The long
Distance
Carriers and
Other corporations
Which refuse
To pay
This
The large
Bills such
As the
Mitsubishi
And AT&T
Suit along
With others
I think
That the
FCC is
Going to
Rewrite
Some legislation
There's going
To beat
Some decisions
In some
Of these
Federal suits
And we
Will have
New law
As a result
Now a
Few days ago
In the
New York
Times
There was
An article
About the
Cellular
Problems
Where people
Are able
To simply
Use a
Device
And read
Identity codes
Of cars
Passing by
And people
Using cellular
Phones
Nearby
And that
Knowledge
Alone
Is enough
For them
To build
Their own
Clone
If you
Use one
Of several
Different types
Of equipment
That's available
When the
Phone call
Is being
Made
You can
Capture the
ESN
And the
MIN
Which are
The two
Numbers
Which identify
To the
Billing company
Who's to
Get the
Bill for
The phone
Call
If you
Take your
Computer
Or laptop
Or any
PC
And a
Prom
Burner
With a
Fresh
EPROM
You can
Duplicate
That ESN
MIN
On to
That
Any calls
Then you
Have
Going out
Will be
Billed
To the
Customer
At the
End of
30 day
Period
If we
Have
40 of
These phones
Out
On a
Call
Selling
Operation
Working
All day
Long
On the
Streets
The bills
Get very
High
And you'll
Have bills
Coming in
$50,000
$60,000
To a
Customer
And they
Are shocked
Now what
What kind
Of equipment
Do you need
To be able
To read
This information
In the first
Place
Well there's
A number
Of different
Types of
People
A number
Of pieces
Of equipment
But I
Wouldn't
On the air
Tell people
What they
Are
Because I
Fear that
People would
Be running
Around
Tomorrow
Looking to
Buy them
But it
Is fairly
Simple
Yes
How much
Blame would
You put
On the
People in
Charge of
The cellular
Industry
For making
It so easy
In the first
Place
Well obviously
They jumped
Into the
Industry
Too fast
Looking to
Make money
They have
Been trying
Desperately
For the
Past year
Year and a
Half
To do
Something about
The fraud
That they're
Incurring
The cellular
Companies have
To pay
To the
Long distance
Carriers
For the
Money
The money
The long
Distance
Carriers
Charge them
For the calls
That are laid
Off from the
Cellular
Industry
To the
Calls
Going out
Of the
Country
Or long
Distance
So the
Cellular
People have
Been getting
Hurt
So what
They've
Done is
They've
Come up
With several
Different
Systems
To prevent
The fraud
They will
Block out
Whole countries
In an area
That have
A lot
Of fraud
Such as
In Elmhurst
Or Jackson
Heights
Where you
Have a
Large
Colombian
Population
Which is
Engaged in
A large
Amount of
Fraud
Out of
That area
On that
Cell site
To the
Degree
That in
A 24
Hour period
Not a
Single
Legitimate
Call
Went out
Through that
Cell site
In a
Given
Weekend
That they
Block all
Access
If you
Want to
Have access
And you're
A legitimate
Customer using
A cellular
Phone in
That area
You can
Tell your
Cellular
Carrier
I would
Like to
Have it
This is
How much
I want
My maximum
To be
On a
Monthly
Basis
And these
Are the
Numbers
That I'm
Going to
Be calling
In
Columbia
And they'll
Set it
Up on
The computer
For you
Most interesting
We're going to
Be opening up
The telephone
Lines
212-279-3400
We're speaking
With Don Delaney
New York State
Police Department
And Fiber
Optic
Computer
Hacker
Fiber
I'd like to
Ask you
If you have
Any
Comments
Or maybe
Corrections
On this
Cellular
Problem
Is it really
As easy
As we're
Making it
Out to be
Here
It surely
Is
I'm just
Glad that
Mr. Delaney
Is making
The distinction
That it is
Not hackers
Who are
Perpetrating
These crimes
But that
They're
Outright
Criminals
Who are
Selling
These phone
Calls
For monetary
Gain
Whether it's
For the
Purpose
Of illegal
Drugs
Or whether
It's some
Sort of
Crime ring
Or mafia
Or organized
Crime
Who's
Benefiting
From the
Selling
Of these
Phone
Calls
And they
They have
A pretty
Competitive
Market
On the
Street
And they're
Killing
Each other
Over territory
What's
Interesting
Is in
New York
City
In several
Different
Areas
You have
Different
Types
Of telecommunications
Fraud
In the
PBX
Fraud
Area
Being that
Fiber
Mentions
Hackers
There are
People who
Just use
A telephone
Which goes
Into the
Computers
Of the
Telephone
Companies
Or the
Corporations
That they
Dial into
On their
800 numbers
And they
Use the
Keypad
To hack
The system
Or crack
The system
They are
Not computer
Knowledgeable
They are
Not computer
Hackers
But they
Know enough
About the
Different type
Of PBX
Systems
That are
Out there
That they
Know that
They need
To put
A certain
Number of
Digits
In a
Code
In a
Certain
Place
After
A pound
Sign
Or whatever
And they
Will hack
Away at
These things
Until they
Get a
Code
Which they
Can use
Now what
We've seen
Is codes
That have
Been hacked
Out
And as
It was
Hacked out
After a
Two week
Try
At
710
In the
Evening
Excuse me
At
510
In the
Evening
At
7.05
An hour
And 55
Minutes
Later
Telephone
Booths
In the
Neighborhood
Started
Using that
Code
And from
There
The code
Spread to
The other
Phone booths
Of Manhattan
Like a
Virus
Until
Hundreds
Literally
Were using
This
And
Thousands
Of
Calls
Were going
Through
The PBX
In the
Period
Of a
Month
That were
All
Fraudulent
And
In the
Particular
Case
Of
Data
Products
That
That
Happened
To
That
Was
On
NBC
News
They
Lost
$35,000
Quickly
That's
Amazing
And
You
Were
Able
To
Track
It
As
It
Happens
Or
The
Bill
Came
In
When
The
Call
Detailing
Comes
In
It
Shows
Each
Hack
Into
An
800
Number
Because
Every
Attempt
Is
Registered
So
They
Know
Where
All
The
Calls
Are
Coming
From
And
It
Was
Apparent
That
They
Were
Using
Initially
9600
Board
Modem
Because
They
Were
Coming
In
At
3
Second
Intervals
After
That
You
Could
See
When
They
Stopped
Using
The
Computer
And
They
Were
Using
Only
The
Keyboard
And
They
Don't
Have
The
Computer
Now
And
They
Don't
Know
Where
It
Is
Now
Would
You
Say
That
Just
Figuring
Out
The
System
Is
That
A
Crime
In
It
No
Figuring
Out
How
What
Codes
Work
If
You
Hack
A
Code
Out
For
Instance
Right
Now
Is
That
A
Crime
Well
First
Of
All
Dialing
Into
Trying
To
Get
Out
Through
The
Remote
Access
Unit
On
The
PBX
You
May
Be
Committing
A
Crime
Robert
Yeah
Just
Like
To
Point
Out
That
We
Should
Use
A
Better
Choice
Of
Words
And
That
Would
Be
Scanning
And
Not
Hacking
Since
A
Hack
Is
A
Quite
Clever
Action
That
Is
Usually
Achieved
Through
Some
Sort
Of
Intelligence
Like
Committing
Some
Sort
Of
Clever
Feat
Or
Something
That
Amusing
Using
Some
Sort
Of
Knowledge
That
Was
Put
To
Some
Sort
Of
Creative
Use
Mindlessly
Dialing
Numbers
In
Sequence
On
A
Telephone
I
Wouldn't
Consider
Hacking
Because
If
We
Start
Calling
That
Hacking
Codes
Then
It
Must
Be
A
Hacker
Who
Hacking
These
Codes
Since
Hackers
Hack
Well
To
A
Lot
Of
People
The
Simple
Act
Of
Picking
Up
A
Phone
And
Dialing
And
Knowing
What
You're
Doing
Is
Hacking
Because
So
Many
People
Don't
Understand
What's
There
And
If
You
Can
Call
Up
A
Particular
800
Number
And
Mindlessly
Dial
For
10
Minutes
And
Figure
Out
A
Code
There
Are
People
That
Will
Think
You're
The
Greatest
Hacker
Of
All
Time
It's
All
Relative
Use
Those
Words
Well
The
Turn
Scanning
Is
Been
Widely
Used
Also
For
The
Sequential
Number
Dial
Out
Programs
That
Are
Used
For
Doing
Exactly
What
We
Talk
About
Every
Every
Telephone
Call
Just
Goes
To
The
Next
Digit
In
The
Code
And
That
Is
Referred
To
Quite
Often
As
Scanning
So
It
May
Be
More
Appropriate
To
Call
Scanning
Than
Hacking
But
I
Think
By
Saying
You're
Hacking
The
System
By
Trying
Different
Code
I
Think
More
People
Understand
That
Because
It's
More
Widely
When
Does
It
Turn
Into
Harassment
Of
Sorts
Once
You
Attempt
To
Go
Out
Through
Their
PBX
You're
Attempting
To
Commit
A
Crime
Attempt
To
Commit
A
Crime
Is
A
Crime
And
We
Could
We
Have
Not
Charged
Anybody
Yet
Specifically
With
Attempting
It
Because
We're
Only
Getting
The
People
That
Are
Getting
Through
The
Systems
And
Out
Dialing
Generating
Thousands
Of
Dollars
Worth
Of
Bills
And
We
Have
To
Follow
Up
On
Those
People
That
Complained
To
Us
If
Somebody
Called
Me
And
Said
Somebody
Was
Dialing
Into
Their
800
Number
But
Never
Successfully
Got
Out
And
I
Got
A
Bill
For
Each
Of
Those
800
Number
Calls
For
A
Total
Of
$20,000
And
It
All
Came
From
One
Place
Well
We
May
Start
Doing
An
Investigation
On
Also
These
Days
It
Is
Very
Easy
To
Figure
Out
Where
The
Call
Is
Coming
From
If
Not
Instantaneously
Can
A
Company
Say
You're
Not
Allowed
To
Call
This
800
Number
Is
There
Anything
On
Their
Particular
Side
That
Would
Allow
Them
To
Charge
You
With
Some
Kind
Of
A
Crime
Just
For
Calling
Just
To
See
What's
There
Not
The
Initial
Call
But
Once
You
Arrived
Once
The
Machine
Or
The
Person
Answered
The
Other
End
If
There
Was
A
Banner
Or
Warning
Which
Said
If
You're
Not
Authorized
To
Use
A
Remote
Access
Unit
Or
Go
Any
Further
In
The
System
Hang
Up
Now
Otherwise
You're
Subject
To
Arrest
Well
Certainly
That
Would
Meet
The
Legal
Requirement
That
If
The
Person
Did
Anything
After
That
If
They
Weren't
Authorized
To
To
Be
In
The
System
They
Could
Be
Arrested
Okay
I'm
Not
Trying
To
Trap
You
Here
No
That's
Not
A
Trap
But
That's
The
Law
But
My
Next
Question
Might
Be
Inferred
As
A
Trap
Are
You
Saying
That
It's
It's
Not
Illegal
To
Do
A
Scan
Of
800
Numbers
It
Is
Because
It's
A
Scan
On
Each
One
Of
Them
Going
From
One
To
The
To
See
What's
Out
Looking
For
Code
If
You're
Using
A
Program
Which
Is
Attempting
To
Hack
Out
A
Code
Just
To
Obtain
The
Code
But
Never
Use
It
It
May
Be
Construed
As
An
Attempted
Crime
Or
It
May
Not
Be
I
Don't
Know
Well
I'm
Not
Even
Going
That
Far
I'm
Saying
Just
To
To
Call
The
To
See
What
Answers
See
If
If
A
Computer
Answers
Here
For
Fax
Oh
Scanning
Sequentially
Well
800
Numbers
Absolutely
Not
That's
Quite
Legal
That's
Some
Good
News
Under
New York
State
Law
Under
Federal
Law
I'm
Not
Really
Sure
And
Local
Municipalities
As
Well
Might
Have
Something
To
Say
About
That
Our
Phone
Number
Is
212-279-3400
We're
Going to
Go to
A
Phone
Call
In
One
Minute
I
Just
Want to
Ask
One
More
Question
Of
Don
Delaney
Here
A
Couple
Of
Weeks
Ago
We
Made
Reference
To
And
Say
Press
One
If
You
Want
To
Be
Billed
$120
To
Have
Your
Fortune
Read
We
Called
It
On
The
Air
Came
Within
One
Touchstone
Of
Causing
Complete
Mayhem
That
Number
Has
Since
By
The
Way
Been
Disconnected
It
No
Longer
Exists
However
I'd
Like
To
Know
Is
That
Kind
Of
A
Thing
From
From
The
Consumer
Point
Of
View
Something
That
Could
Be
Looked
Upon
As
Illegal
As
Because
Everybody
Believes
When
You
Dial
An
800
Number
It's
Going
To
Be
For
Free
You
Have
A
Legal
Requirement
That
If
You're
Going
To
Charge
The
Person
Back
For
The
Call
Into
The
System
Just
As
On
A
900
Number
Or
540
Number
That
Within
10
Seconds
You
Tell
Them
The
Call
And
Give
Them
The
Opportunity
To
Hang
Up
And
Right
Now
The
Big
Scam
Is
The
540
Num
That
Although
They
Are
Staying
On
The
Legal
Side
Of
The
Law
It
Is
What
I
Would
Refer
To
As
A
Scam
And
These
Are
Recordings
That
Call
You
And
Say
You've
Won
Something
Called
This
Number
And
They
Don't
Tell
You
How
Much
It
Cost
To
Call
Well
If
They
Don't
They'll
Be
Arrested
As
We
Did
Last
Year
In
The
$55
Beeper
Scam
He
Would
Dial
Out
To
Blocks
Of
Beeper
Numbers
And
When
The
People
Would
Dial
Back
To
His
Telephone
Number
The
Computer
Would
Answer
Give
Them
A
Lot
Of
Jibberish
About
Real
Estate
Deals
Etc
Now
Is
The
Only
Reason
He
Got
In
Trouble
Because
He
Didn't
Say
What
The
Price
Was
That's
Correct
If
He
Had
Said
What
The
Price
Was
If
He
Said
It's
$55
If
You
Stay
On
Pass
The
Ten
Second
Limit
You're
Going
To
Be
Charged
$55
On
Your
Telephone
Bill
He
Would
Not
Have
Gotten
Into
Trouble
I
Have
An
Interesting
Question
Supposing
The
Person
That
Called
Him
Back
Only
Spoke
Spanish
And
Didn't
Understand
That
Or
Supposing
He
Said
It
In
Spanish
What's
The
Law
As
As far
As
That
Goes
Not
Not
A
Law
Specifically
But
I'm
Sure
That
If
You
Made
That
Case
To
The
Telephone
Company
You'd
Probably
Find
Someone
Who
Listened
To
You
They
Have
To
Write
Off
An
Awful
Lot
Of
Fraud
Of
People
Being
People
Companies
PBX
Or
Any
Other
Way
That
A
Person
Got
Billed
For
Calls
That
They
Didn't
Make
And
The
Telephone
Company
Eats
An
Awful
Lot
Of
That
But
Do
You
Think
The
Phone
Company
Shares
Some
Capability
Here
Because
They
Make
It
Hard
For
People
To
Understand
What
What
Gets
Charged
And
What
Doesn't
I
Don't
Know
That
The
Telephone
Company
Does
I
Know
That
They
Sign
Agreements
They
Have
Agreements
With
People
That
Buy
These
540
Lines
It's
The
Customers
Who
Then
Change
These
Things
After
They
Set
Them
Up
Initially
With
The
Agreements
And
Engage
In
The
Fraud
What
I'm
Saying
Is
Just
The
Idea
Of
A
540
Line
In
Baltimore
For
Instance
540
Is
A
Valid
Exchange
So
I
Might
Know
Somebody
That
Has
540
As
Their
Phone
Conversation
New York
State
Legally
It's
Illegal
To
Do
Any
Overhearing
Of
A
Voice
Communication
Without
Having
One
Party
Consent
And
If
They
Do
And
It's
Brought
To
The
Attention
Of
Law
Enforcement
Yes
We
Would
Absolutely
Make
An
Arrest
But
How
Can
You
Possibly
Enforce
Something
Like
That
Somebody
Very
Simple
Just
Tune
On
The
Scanner
And
Overhear
Them
And
Hear
All
Kinds
Of
Personal
Information
I've
Heard
This
On
Occasion
Myself
Where
People
Discuss
The
Most
Intimate
Details
And
I
Really
Don't
Think
They
Know
That
They're
Broadcasting
All
Over
The
Place
I
Think
Some
Of
Them
Don't
Care
But
Yes
It's
Easy
To
Do
You
Can
Get
A
Scanner
And
Tune
In
Certain
Frequencies
The
Scanner
Will
Find
A
Frequency
For
You
That's
Active
But
That
Is
Illegal
In
New
York
State
Totally
Even
Worse
Than
That
Aren't
There
Devices
Which
Allow
People
To
Hook
Into
Regular
Wired
Landlines
Oh
Obviously
That
Would
Be
Illegal
If
That
Were
To
Occur
I
Don't
Know
Anybody
Is
Doing
It
If
I
Did
I
Lock
Them
Up
Thank
You
Very
Much
Thanks
For
Calling
Good
Evening
Good
Evening
Emmanuel
I
Have
A
Brief
Observation
And
Then
A
Question
For
Fibro
Optic
If
I
Might
Okay
The
Observation
Is
Sort
Of
In
The
Humorous
Vane
This
The
Whole
Concept
Of
This
Debate
In
A
Left
Handed
Way
Reminds
Me
Of
The
Old
Dragnet
Episode
In
Which
Marijuana
Legalization
Was
Debated
Which
Ended
In
A
Bust
But
That
Is
Neither
Hand
Or
There
Was
Just
An
Do
You
Feel
That
If
The
Penalty
Of
Quote
Unquote
Landing
In
Jail
Didn't
Exist
Some
Of
The
Challenge
In
Terms
Of
Adrenaline
Fuel
Genius
Or
Insight
Or
Fun
Would
Be
Removed
From
The
Hacker
Game
And
Hence
It
Wouldn't
Have
The
Challenge
That
Would
Motivate
People
Who
Have
In
The
Past
And
Present
Gone
Beyond
Themselves
And
I
Like
The
Officer
To
Rebu
Also
And
Now
I'm
Hacking
Gov
I'm
Going
To
Put
Back
On
The
Radio
Good
Evening
Okay
Thanks
Well
I
Think
It
Might
Be
True
For
Some
Some
Individuals
However
Immature
But
That's
That's
Kind of
Silly
To
Think
That
The
Only
Thrill
Of
Learning
Something
New
Is
The
Fact
That
You're
Challenging
Authority
I
Think
That's
A
Ridiculous
Notion
And
That
I
Think
That
The
Human
Race
Wouldn't
Achieve
What
We'd
Only
Discover
New
Things
Or
Be
Motivated
To
Use
Technology
In
New
And
Different
Ways
If
Only
We
Were
Challenging
Authority
That
That's
Ridiculous
I
Don't
See
That
It
Holds
Water
At
All
I
Don't
See
Anybody
That
We've
Been
Involved
With
Or
Discussed
These
Things
With
That
Were
Motivated
Just
Because
It's
Against
The
Law
Or
Because
Of
The
Hype
Associated
With
It
I
Think
That
There's
A
Lot
Of
People
That
Are
Out
There
And
I'm
Separating
Now
The
Traditional
Hacker
Which
Is
Out
There
Trying
To
Advance
His
Base
Of
Knowledge
But
The
Great
Majority
Of
The
People
That
We're
Dealing
With
Are
Actually
Out
There
Doing
Malicious
Things
Either
With
Computers
Or
Or
Which
Actually
The
Great
Majority
Of
Computer
Crimes
Are
Committed
By
Employees
Against
Their
Employer
Both
On
Federal
Level
And
In
Corporations
And
None
Of
This
Is
Done
For
The
Hype
Or
Because
It's
Against
The
Law
A
Lot
Of
It's
Greed
As
Far
As
As
As
The
Hacker
Do
You
See
Very
Many
Malicious
Hackers
We
Have
Had
Some
Right
Here
From
New
York
City
That
We've
Spoken
About
In
The
Past
Who
Would
Do
Things
When
They
Would
Have
An
Argument
With
A
Friend
Of
Theirs
Or
An
Ex-Friend
Of
Theirs
They
Would
Go
In
And
Call
Forward
Their
Parents
Telephone
Number
To
A
900
Line
Things
Like
That
Which
Is
Malicious
Behavior
More
Than
Anything
Else
Where
Do
You
Separate
Maliciousness
From
Mischievousness
As
Far
As
I
Know
It's
A lot
Easier
These
Days
To
Make
The
Dollars
Rack
Up
But
Is
That
The
Fault
Of
The
Person
Doing
It
Or
Is
That
The
Fault
Of
The
Technology
Well
If
I
Would
Make
A
Distinction
Between
A
Person
That
Dials
Into
A
System
To
Look
Around
And
See
If
He
Can
Explore
Holes
In
A
Unix
System
Without
Doing
Any
Damage
Or
Doing
Anything
Once
He
Became
Super
User
And
Got
Out
Of
Competitors
Computer
As
We've
We've
Investigated
A
Case
Of
That
Naturally
Any
Type
Of
Sabotage
Of
Another
System
Or
Corporate
Espionage
Is
Definitely
Malicious
And
That's
More
Of
What
We
See
Than
The
Traditional
Hacker
Type
That
Just
Goes
Into
A
System
And
Doesn't
Do
Anything
Wrong
Because
Then
You
Don't
Have
Anybody
That's
Really
Complaining
Okay
Let's
Take
Another
Call
Good
Evening
Yes
Good
Evening
Hello
Yes
Go
A
Yeah
I
Saw
An
Advertisement
On
A
Pornographic
Magazine
It
Said
Free
Samples
And
I
Called
It
Was
A
319
Number
And
319
Within
A
Particular
Area
Code
Yeah
212
Okay
And
She
Started
Talking
Whatever
And
Then
She
Said
This
Call
We'll
Charge
You
$120
For
This
Call
And
I
Hung
Up
Right
And
I
Wondering
If
I
Going
To
Charge
That
That
Amount
Of
Money
That
Ridiculous
Were
You
On
More
Than
10
Seconds
I
Don't
Think
So
I
Hung
Up
Real
Fast
Well
How
Can
Something
In
The
319
Exchange
Charge
More
Than
Whatever
It
Cost
To
Call
The
319
Exchange
I
Don't
Believe
It
A
Special
Exchange
We
May
Have
A
New
One
We
May
Have
A
One
I
Know
There
Are
There
Are
Some
Cases
Some
800
Numbers
You
Can
Call
That
Will
Charge
You
Quote
Unquote
Discreetly
As
A
Collect
Call
And
What
That
Does
Is
It
Shows
Up
On
Your
Phone
Bill
About
A
Month
Or
So
Later
As
If
They
Had
Called
You
Collect
And
I
Question
The
Legality
Of
That
As
Well
However
To
Do
This
With
With
A
Local
Number
Is
Something
Kind
Of
Different
I
Not
Really
Sure
If
That
It
Really
Took
Me
Because
212
319
It
Seems
Like
Not
Only
Local
But
I
Mean
It
Didn't
Sound
Like
540
Or
976
Or
Anything
Like
That
Right
Well
Did
You
Attempt
To
Call
New
York
Telephone
Security
No
I
Didn't
They
Have
A
Special
Person
That
Takes
Care
Complaints
At
The
New
York
Telephone
Company
With
Regards
To
These
Pay
Lines
If
You
Call
Him
He'll
Be
Able
To
Assist
You
You
Don't
Have
To
Have
The
Number
Do
You
No
I
Don't
I
Know
It's
A
395
Exchange
But
They
Can
Get
It
From
Either
The
Operator
Or
The
Phone
Book
What's
The
Name
Of
The
Office
It's
Telephone
Security
Telephone
Security
I
Think
A
Lot
Of
People
Might
Feel
Some
Abashed
Calling
After
They've
Called
One
Of
These
Lines
Saying
I
Called
The
Dominance
Line
And
They
Wanted
To
Charge
Me
$120
For
That
I
Just
Didn't
Think
It
Was
Worth
It
I
Don't
Know
If
A
Lot
Of
People
Would
Well
Some
People
May
Think
That
It's
Worth
It
What
We
Need
Is
Some
Kind
Of
A
Standardized
Way
Of
Reporting
These
Things
For
Instance
With
Customer
Own
Coin
Operated
Telephones
Known
Do
You
Get
Many
Kinds
Of
Complaints
Is
That
In
Your
Field
We
Would
Handle
One
Of
Those
Complaints
If
It
Were
To
Come
To
Us
But
We
Have
Not
Had
A
Single
Complaint
From
Anybody
Against
Any
Of
The
Co-Card
Companies
For
Anything
That
Was
Criminal
In
Nature
If
It's
Something
To
Do
With
Negligence
And
There's
A
Bill
Involved
It's
A
Civil
Matter
If
It's
An
Intentional
Crime
By
The
Company
What
Would
A
Good
Example
Of
Intentional
Crime
Be
That
They
Put
Something
Out
There
That's
Going
To
Cause
The
Customer
To
Dial
A
Number
When
The
Customer
Dial
A
Number
He's
Going
To
Get
A
Bill
Grossly
In
Excess
Of
What
The
Posted
Standard
Would
Be
On
The
Face
Of
The
Tariffs
That
Are
Imposed
For
This
Day
Of
Agreements
How
About
Deception
Making
It
Difficult
For
You
To
Get
For
For
instance
Not
Allowing
Access
To
An
Operator
Or
Billing
You
An
Incredible
Amount
And
Saying
You're
Going
To
Bill
An
Incredible
Well
These
Things
Are
Controlled
By
The
FCC
They
Have
Rules
And
Regulations
Which
Govern
These
Things
If
They're
Beyond
The
Rules
And
Regulations
Of
The
FCC
Then
The
F
Complaint
Can
Be
Brought
And
We
Would
Assist
A
Customer
That
Had
That
Complaint
With
Speaking
With
Someone
At
The
FCC
Who
Would
Take
Action
If
Appropriate
Or
The
Public
Service
Commission
Yes
Okay
Good
Evening
You're
On
The
Air
Oh
Hi
I
Want
To
Know
How
To
Order
2600
Okay
I'll
Give
You
A
Phone
Number
All
Right
All
The
Information
Is
There
Okay
It's
Area
Code
516
516
751
2600
And
You
1-1-9-5-3
Thanks a lot
Sure
Good
Evening
Yeah
I
Am
Very
Interested
In
Oral
History
You
Know
With
A
Tape
Recorder
And
I
Had
My
Machine
On
For
Record
And
I
Had
It
On
Pause
And
I
Released
The
Pause
I
Was
Talking
To
This
Wonderful
Elderly
Gentleman
About
80
Years
Old
Or
85
Hello
Oh
I
Hear a
Dial tone
Is
That
Your
Dial tone
Oh
Dear
Wow
He
Hung
Up
He
Hung
Up
Everybody
Hear
This
Once
And
For
All
I
Finally
Figured
I
Had
To
Get
Monroe
To
Hang
Up
It
Never
Happened
Before
Wow
I'm
Gonna
Play
That
One
Back
Sounded
Like
He
Was
Off
The
Hook
Yeah
Good
Evening
You
Are
In
The
Air
Go
Ahead
Hi
I
Have
A
Double
H
Question
Here
Okay
We
Like
Those
Kind
Technical
And
Legal
Alright
Go
Ahead
I
Know
That
800
Numbers
Are
Basically
Just
Local
Numbers
Correct
Say
That
Again
If
There's
An
800
Number
Say
800
555
5555
Interesting
You should
Pick that
Number
But
They're
Not
Local
Numbers
At
All
Usually
When
You
Dial
Into
Them
They're
In
Some
Other
State
I
Think
Maybe
What
You
Mean
Is
They
Translate
To
Local
Numbers
In
The
End
That's
Correct
No
They
Don't
Okay
Anywhere
In
The
Country
It
Could
Be
Anywhere
In
The
World
Actually
You
Could
Have
AT&T
International
800
Service
I
Think
What
He's
Trying
To
Say
Is
That
In
The
End
They
Wind
Up
Ringing
A
Regular
Telephone
That's
That's
Correct
What
Do
You
Mean
By
Regular
A
Regular
Phone
That's
On
The
Desk
They
An
800
Number
Goes
To
Another
Phone
Number
Is
What
He's
Trying
To
Say
Right
You
Could
Have
An
800
Number
That
Actually
Rings
On
279
2300
Absolutely
3400
Right
My
Question
Is
Do
900
Numbers
Work
The
Same
Way
They
Can
And
They
Cannot
Same
As
An
800
Number
An
800
Number
Can
Connect
To
A
Telephone
Connect
To
Connect
To
Anything
There
Are
Cases
Where
Both
800
And
900
Numbers
Connect
To
Numbers
That
You
Cannot
Dial
Any
Other
Way
I
Think
What
The
Caller
I
Seem
To
Have
Some
Sort
Of
Mind
Melt
With
This
Caller
Here
But
I
Think
What
He's
Trying
To
Say
Is
That
It
Might
Be
Possible
To
Find
Back
Doors
Into
900
Numbers
Where
You
Call
A
Particular
Phone
Number
And
You're
Connected
And
They
Say
It
Cost
A
Dollar
A
Minute
But
In
Actuality
Since
You
Didn't
Call
Over
The
900
Line
You're
Not
Being
Charged
Anything
More
Than
A
Local
Call
That's
Right
Yes
That's
Correct
What
Is
The
Legality
Involved
In
That
Would
That
Be
Considered
A
Crime
No
No
Because
I
Would
Be
Paying
For
The
Regular
If
The
Number
Is
Out
There
And
You
Know
What
That
Backdoor
Number
Is
And
You
Did
Not
Obtain
It
Illegally
And
You
Dial
It
And
There's
Nothing
That
Tells
You
You
Can't
Dial
It
Then
You
Can
And
If
You
Get
The
Service
Then
You
Get
The
Service
What
If
You
Circulate
That
Information
That
This
Particular
Telephone
Number
Goes
To
This
Particular
Service
Because
You're
Not
Paying
The
Exact
Amount
That
They
Want
You
To
Pay
Is
That
A
Crime
Well
If
You
Circulate
It
You
Mean
Publish
Publishing
In
Emmanuel
I
Don't
Know
Why
You
Treat
Me
The
Way
You
Do
But
I
Just
Would
Like
To
End
How
Many
Phones
Do
You
Have
With
An
Oral
History
Where
You
Have
Your
Tape
Recorder
And
You
Have
It
On
Pause
And
You
You
Release
It
And
You're
Taping
A
Person
What
Are
The
Rights
Of
Of
An
Individual
Supposing
This
Person
Called
The
Police
On
Me
And
Said
He
Tap
Our
Conversation
Now
Could
You
Just
Go
Into
It
For
A
Sec
Okay
You
Want
To
Tackle
That
One
I
Think
I
Think
What
He's
Asking
Is
How
I
Don't
Know
What
He's
Asking
How
How
Much
Warning
Do
You
Have
To
Give
Somebody
If
You're
If
You're
Taping
Someone
I
Don't
Know
Books
Have
Been
Written
About
This
I'm
Sure
Good
Evening
You're
On
Yes
Emmanuel
Yeah
Yes
I
Keep
Getting
Cut
Off
By
My
Phone
Company
Every
Time
It
Rings
You
Must
Be
In
New
Jersey
Yes
I
Am
But
I
Figured
Out
If
You
Dial
10
NJB
It
Just
Rings
You
Can
Beat
The
AT&T
Okay
To
Explain
That
To
Callers
People
Calling
Us
Going
From
New
Jersey
Dial
10
NJB
Then
1212
279
3400
Right
And
It
Won't
Cut
Off
After
How
Many
Minutes
Is
Usually
Cut
Off
I
Don't
Know
I
Think
It
Was
Like
25
Or
40
Rings
It
Ends
It
Says
Your
Caller
Is
Not
There
Is
Not
Answering
And
Then
It
Disconnects
You
I
Have
AT&T
So
I
Guess
It's
AT&T
Okay
We've
Heard
MCI
Does
The
Same
Thing
And
What's
The
Other
One
I
Have
Is
I
Have
Three
Phones
The
Other
One
Is
Metromedia
Metromedia
Does
It
Too
Well
You
Found
One
Way
Around
It
Let's
Hope
It
Last
Let's
Hope
The
Other
Companies
Go
Back
To
The
Way
They
Used
To
Do
Things
And
Make
It
A
More
Fair
Now
You
800
Number
When
The
Either
Integratel
Or
One
Of
These
Fly
By
Night
Phone
Companies
Started
Asking
Me
For
A
Quarter
A
Minute
To
Stay
On
There
And
I
Just
You
Know
These
Are
The
Sort
Of
Things
That
The
Police
Should
Be
I
Don't
Know
If
It
They
Should
Focus
On
But
It
Is
One
Of
The
Things
That
As
They
Should
Do
Something
About
I
Mean
These
Phones
Are
Blocked
8
8
To
Access
AT&T
Because
I
Have
An
AT&T
Credit
Card
And
I
Can
Never
Get
It
No
It
Never
Works
I
Don't
Know
Why
They
Bother
Advertising
That
In
Commercials
It
Never
Works
From
Well
They're
Especially
Tough
When
You're
Talking
About
In
New
York
City
Because
There's
So
Much
Fraud
The
Telephone
Companies
Have
Done
A lot
To
Try
To
Block
The
Fraud
I've
Tried
To
How
Is
That
Fraud
I'm
Trying
To
Access
No
You're
Not
Engaged
In
Fraud
I'm
Talking
About
Some
Of
The
Ways
That
They've
Engaged
Into
Block
Fraud
Your
Problem
Is
That
The
AT&T
Was
Broken
Up
And
The
Fine
Working
Phone
System
That
We
Used
To
Have
Now
Is
Divided
Up
Among
A
Lot
Of
Different
Companies
That
Aren't
All
Policing
Itself
The
Way
It
Should
And
You
Have
To
Dial
From
One
Telephone
Into
An
800
Number
But
You
May
End
Up
Going
Through
A
Couple
Of
Other
Telephone
Companies
Before
You
Get
Out
Of
The
System
And
Some
One
Of
The
Line
Is
Going
To
Bill
You
Or
To
Put
A
Quarter
In
Well
That's
Terrible
You
Shouldn't
Have
That
Problem
I
Guess
What
I'm
Asking
Is
Is
Is
That
Under
Your
Juris
Well
I
Don't
See
For
Instance
I
Use
Credit
Cards
8
12
Times
A
Day
Well
You
Should
First
Of
All
Be
Watching
Over
Your
Shoulder
For
The
Shoulder
Surface
Because
If
You're
Using
Pin
Numbers
In
A lot
Of
Are
Of
New
York
There
Are
People
Stealing
Them
By
Looking
Over
Your
Shoulder
From
Afar
Either
Using
Binoculars
Telescopes
They
Record
These
Numbers
Into
Tape
Recorders
As
Fast
As
You
There
Is
One
Case
Where
A
Payphone
Owner
Actually
Had
Rigged
Up
His
Payphone
To
Capture
The
Numbers
Of
Now
That
Is
Illegal
Yeah
That
Strikes
Me
As
Being
A
Bit
Illegal
That
Is
Illegal
But
What
You're
Referring
To
Is
Not
Illegal
What
I'm
Trying
To
Find
Out
Is
You
Had
Mentioned
That
If
They
Are
Exorbitant
Rates
For
I
See
Calls
On
My
Credit
Card
Bills
That
I
Have
To
Use
Their
Zero
Number
And
I
Can't
Access
AT&T
Which
For
AT&T
Might
Have
Cost
Me
Two
Dollars
And
Their
Call
Was
Seven
Dollars
And
I
Don't
Even
Know
Who
To
Go
To
Those
Costs
Are
Determined
By
The
FCC
Tariffs
That
They
Enable
These
People
To
Charge
That's
Controlled
The
Police
Department
Doesn't
Have
Anything
To
Do
With
The
Actual
Price
That
You
The
Option
Of
If
You
Cannot
Get
10288
To
Work
They
Can
Route
Your
Call
Through
That
800
Number
It
Is
Very
Rare
That
A
Co-Cut
Will
Block
Access
To
An
800
Number
Although
With
These
New
800
Numbers
That
Start
Charging
Back
It's
A
Matter
Of
Time
Before
They
Start
Blocking
800
Numbers
Now
To
Manual
And
That
Is
Is
There
And
What
I've
Done
Is
I've
Started
Recording
Them
Because
As
I
Get
A
Vomit
A
Phone
And
It's
Blocked
For
AT&T
I
Don't
Know
Who
To
Tell
About
It
Well
You
Can
Tell
Us
The
Magazine
Because
We're
Good
At
Spreading
Word
Like
That
Around
And
Eventually
It
Gets
To
The
Right
Person
Okay
Because
I
Just
Got
The
Address
From
The
In
Other
Well
The
Public
Service
Commission
Is
The
Agency
For
New
York
Getting
Somebody
Who
Understands
What
We're
Talking
About
We
Get
Lots
Of
Busy
Signals
And
Lots
Of
Puzzled
People
On
The
Other
End
Of
The
Phone
So
Not
Supposed
To
Be
Blocked
Is
That
Correct
What's
Not
Supposed
To
Be
Locked
These
Independent
Long
Distance
Companies
Are
Not
Really
Allowed
To
Block
A
Phone
From
AT&T
Or
Any
Other
Caller
They're
Not
Supposed
To
However
I
Don't
Believe
There's
A
Law
That
Says
They
Have
To
I
Know
There's
A
Law
That
Says
They
Have
To
Get
To
911
And
I'm
Not
Sure
If
It
Goes
Much
Further
Beyond
That
Okay
I
Was
On
The
Impression
That
Because
I
Think
I
Got
Something
In
The
Mail
From
AT&T
Telling
Me
That
But
When
I
Called
AT&T
They
Had
No
Office
Or
To
Report
To
And
I'm
Looking
For
A
Number
Or
Some
Service
To
Report
To
And
I'll
Send
Them
In
The
2600
I'll
Be
Honest
Sir
I've
Never
Yet
Found
A
Co-Cut
That
Allows
You
10XXX
Access
950
Access
I
Consider
To
Be
An
Accomplishment
If
I
Can
Get
An
Access
Number
Through
That
Without
Any
Hassle
There
Are
Some
That
Do
But
Quite
A
Few
Don't
It's
You
I'd
Say
40
60
40
Do
And
60
Don't
But
I
Do
Find
Them
To
Do
Anyway
Thanks
A lot
Thanks
For
Calling
I
Think
We
Have
Time
For
One
More
Call
Good
Evening
Hello
Regarding
The
540
Number
There
Was
One
Company
Mentioned
The
Number
Many
Times
And
They
Say
0100
To
Make
It
Sound
Like
The
Radio
Station
Of
Z100
They
Say
0100
And
The
Call
Is
Bill
At
540
Well
I
Figured
Out
They
Billing
Those
Calls
At
$5
And
40
Cents
And
There
Is
A
New
One
That
Is
Pretty
Clever
It
From
Huntington
Long
Island
That
Is
Many
540
Numbers
Running
Out
Of
Huntington
It
Is
Out
Of
A
Mail
Drop
I
Think
It
Is
E
Enterprises
They
Just
Started
A
New
One
About
A
Week
Ago
So
New
That
When
I
Called
The
Telephone
Business
Office
To
Find
Who
Something
Then
I
Realized
I
Had
Taped
The
Call
I
Played
It
Back
It
The
Same
Address
As
The
Zero
100
They
Called
My
Office
Phone
In
The
Police
Station
Today
That
That's
That's
A
Big
Mistake
Did
You
Dial
Up
To
See
If
You
Won
The
Binoculars
No
No
Well
I
Have
Three
Lines
At
Home
And
They
Get
Two
Or
Three
Sometimes
Wow
Listen
Sir
We're
Out
Of
Time
But
Thanks
For
Thanks
For
Calling
In
One
Final
Question
The
540
Numbers
Have
You
Seen
The
540
Signs
For
Apartment
For
Rent
That
Are
Plastered
On
Telephone
Polls
It's
Big
Enough
So
You
Can
See
The
Phone
Number
But
Not
Big
Enough
So
You
Can
See
The
Charge
We
Printed
One
In
The
Last
Issue
2600
I
Didn't
See
It
But
Certainly
If
Well
Known
Computer
Hacker
I
Think
We've
Got
Some
Common
Ground
To
Stand
On
Here
As
Far
As
Tracking
Down
The
Real
Ripoffs
Out
There
And
I
Think
A lot
Of
Hackers
Out
There
Are
The
Ones
That
Are
Going
To
Find
These
Rippoffs
Before
Anybody
else
Want to
Give
Any
Kind
Of
Number
Way
People
Can
Get
Ahold
And
Report
Things
If
They
See
Something
That
Should
Not
Be
Right
Well
State
Troop
L
Headquarters
In
Farmingdale
The
Telephone
Number
There
Is
Area
Code
516
756
3390
Or
If
It's
Outside
Of
The
New
York
City
Area
Anywhere
Else
In
The
State
Of
New
York
You
Call
Our
Number
In
Albany
Which
Is
518
457
5712
And
They
Will
Help
You
Okay
Thanks
Very
Much
For
Being
On
The
Show
And
That's
Going
To
Just
About
Do
It
For
Us
Here
Tonight
On
Off
The
Hook
Next
Week
We
Are
Not
On
Next
Week
Is
Earth
Day
But
We
Will
Be
Back
In
Two
Weeks
So
We'll
See
You
Then
Stay
Tuned
For
The
Personal
Computer
Show
This is
Emmanuel
Goldstein
Good
Night
Good
From
Dilly
Bom
For
The
Best
Expect
For
Worst
I
Hope
That's
Understood
From
Dilly
Bo