Off The Hook - 1992-04-29

[00:02.070 --> 00:07.240]  [SPEAKER_00]: WBAI will present a special edition of Hour of the Wolf with Jim Freund.
[00:07.600 --> 00:11.510]  [SPEAKER_00]: Our special guests will include science fiction writer Terry Bisson.
[00:12.040 --> 00:15.770]  [SPEAKER_00]: This will be the finale of the entire day, which began at 5 a.m.
[00:15.900 --> 00:18.500]  [SPEAKER_00]: and goes all the way till 1 a.m.
[00:18.660 --> 00:23.280]  [SPEAKER_00]: So join us May 2nd, this Saturday, for Science Fiction Day.
[00:27.200 --> 00:31.240]  [SPEAKER_01]: And today is Science Fact Day, so tune in.
[00:31.240 --> 00:34.080]  [SPEAKER_01]: And Off the Hook is next on WBAI New York.
[01:34.400 --> 01:36.480]  [SPEAKER_01]: And a good evening to one and all.
[01:36.540 --> 01:37.880]  [SPEAKER_01]: The program is Off the Hook.
[01:37.880 --> 01:39.520]  [SPEAKER_01]: This is Emmanuel Goldstein.
[01:39.720 --> 01:41.920]  [SPEAKER_01]: We're with you for the next hour.
[01:42.800 --> 01:59.900]  [SPEAKER_01]: Talking about various new forms of technology and old forms of media distortion and general fantasy regarding what's going on out there.
[02:00.780 --> 02:01.860]  [SPEAKER_01]: Stay tuned.
[03:06.490 --> 03:15.370]  [SPEAKER_01]: We begin by admonishing the media once again for distorting the word hacker.
[03:16.070 --> 03:20.830]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's been a couple of weeks since we've been on the air, so time for an update.
[03:20.830 --> 03:44.910]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure everybody picked up the newspapers and watched the television, heard the radio, WBAI accepted, and heard this story of the thousand hacker gang that's out there waiting to disrupt your life, to steal your credit rating, to terrorize you.
[03:45.630 --> 03:47.890]  [SPEAKER_01]: It was the most amazing story I'd ever seen.
[03:47.890 --> 03:51.970]  [SPEAKER_01]: I've been deluged with all kinds of calls from people wanting to know more.
[03:52.970 --> 03:57.570]  [SPEAKER_01]: Most of them, people who are writing those stories that claim to know all the facts.
[03:58.790 --> 04:00.050]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, here are the facts.
[04:00.210 --> 04:08.650]  [SPEAKER_01]: The facts are that some people based mostly in San Diego at this point had stolen something.
[04:10.590 --> 04:13.910]  [SPEAKER_01]: Lots of things with credit cards, credit card numbers.
[04:15.410 --> 04:17.310]  [SPEAKER_01]: Take a good look at your credit card.
[04:18.210 --> 04:23.070]  [SPEAKER_01]: You might think that because you hold it in your hand, you possess it.
[04:23.890 --> 04:25.630]  [SPEAKER_01]: But that's not the case.
[04:27.010 --> 04:36.090]  [SPEAKER_01]: Anybody that is able to guess those 16 digits or less if you're not as privileged as some, anyone who can guess those numbers
[04:39.610 --> 04:41.210]  [SPEAKER_01]: can use those numbers.
[04:44.430 --> 04:47.430]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's an absurdly simple system to abuse.
[04:48.450 --> 04:55.210]  [SPEAKER_01]: You can jump into a garbage can and pull out little carbons that have people's credit card numbers on them.
[04:55.310 --> 04:57.130]  [SPEAKER_01]: You can figure out credit card numbers yourself.
[04:57.910 --> 05:00.710]  [SPEAKER_01]: You can overhear them on a cellular phone call.
[05:01.870 --> 05:04.810]  [SPEAKER_01]: There's all kinds of ways to get credit card numbers.
[05:06.030 --> 05:17.310]  [SPEAKER_01]: And that's what some people in San Diego and in other parts of the country as well did and have been doing and will continue to do in the future.
[05:20.200 --> 05:28.040]  [SPEAKER_01]: And it might make for an interesting sentence occasionally.
[05:29.800 --> 05:34.100]  [SPEAKER_01]: Not really an interesting story, but an interesting sentence, maybe a few other words.
[05:37.270 --> 05:41.990]  [SPEAKER_01]: And most of it based upon the fact that it's so absurdly simple to do this.
[05:44.410 --> 05:53.970]  [SPEAKER_01]: However, in mass media, we somehow make a connection to computer hackers.
[05:53.970 --> 05:54.570]  [SPEAKER_01]: Why?
[05:55.250 --> 06:00.450]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I guess because somewhere along the lines, a computer was used.
[06:04.150 --> 06:15.230]  [SPEAKER_01]: By tapping into Equifax or TRW or any other agency that has all this information on us, we can see people's credit card numbers.
[06:15.230 --> 06:17.630]  [SPEAKER_01]: And once we see those numbers, we have them.
[06:18.050 --> 06:19.370]  [SPEAKER_01]: And we can use them.
[06:20.710 --> 06:37.150]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, the act of tapping into a credit agency and seeing numbers and then using those numbers to steal something.
[06:37.520 --> 06:43.770]  [SPEAKER_01]: And that's pretty much what it is when you order something and somebody else pays for it and you get it for nothing.
[06:44.270 --> 06:50.350]  [SPEAKER_01]: It might be the completely kosher definition of the word steal, but it's it's close enough for me.
[06:53.290 --> 07:00.030]  [SPEAKER_01]: That act or those series of acts has absolutely nothing to do with hacking.
[07:00.890 --> 07:02.690]  [SPEAKER_01]: Hacking is the quest for knowledge.
[07:02.910 --> 07:11.310]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's the unending spirit of quite a few people to just learn and not take no for an answer.
[07:13.550 --> 07:18.310]  [SPEAKER_01]: Lots of times hackers get a bad rap because they go places they're not supposed to go.
[07:20.190 --> 07:27.710]  [SPEAKER_01]: But that's what adventurers have been doing explorers for all time and will continue to do.
[07:27.870 --> 07:28.810]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's a healthy thing.
[07:30.290 --> 07:31.850]  [SPEAKER_01]: Something we should be encouraging.
[07:32.310 --> 07:56.830]  [SPEAKER_01]: But when we lump it together into something that is no more than stealing when we say that because on a hacker bulletin board people may have been able to share this information that because of that there's a gang of a thousand hackers that are getting ready to steal merchandise and abuse your credit rating.
[07:59.210 --> 08:04.930]  [SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't bear very much resemblance to even a little bit of the truth.
[08:10.700 --> 08:26.360]  [SPEAKER_01]: It was interesting how all of those news stories were talking about these thousand hackers and I talked to a few reporters and I said, hey, do you know the names of even one of these hackers?
[08:33.690 --> 08:34.930]  [SPEAKER_01]: And of course they didn't.
[08:37.110 --> 08:44.870]  [SPEAKER_01]: They were hoping that I would know that information and that I'd be able to share it with them and find all these hackers that are out there.
[08:45.910 --> 08:54.050]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well folks, the majority of hackers have very, very little interest and a lot of impatience with this kind of garbage because that's exactly what it is.
[08:54.810 --> 08:57.630]  [SPEAKER_01]: People that go around stealing things with credit card numbers
[09:00.880 --> 09:03.240]  [SPEAKER_01]: could not interest us in the least.
[09:06.980 --> 09:25.180]  [SPEAKER_01]: And if you're someone like that that goes around and thinks they're hacking by playing with that information and using it solely for their own benefit, you're making a big mistake.
[09:29.040 --> 09:30.220]  [SPEAKER_01]: This is nothing new.
[09:30.360 --> 09:32.940]  [SPEAKER_01]: This is not any kind of new hacker ethic.
[09:33.120 --> 09:33.960]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's always existed.
[09:37.650 --> 09:40.090]  [SPEAKER_01]: Sure, hackers break the law all the time.
[09:40.330 --> 09:41.050]  [SPEAKER_01]: We all do.
[09:41.930 --> 09:45.750]  [SPEAKER_01]: Probably broken the law about 14 times today in some form.
[09:48.490 --> 09:51.690]  [SPEAKER_01]: Hackers have a very distinct distaste for authority.
[09:53.450 --> 09:55.930]  [SPEAKER_01]: And today is not a bad day to say that, is it?
[10:03.270 --> 10:08.910]  [SPEAKER_01]: But one thing most hackers do have is a a sense of fair play.
[10:12.920 --> 10:15.980]  [SPEAKER_01]: Hackers are probably among the most honest people
[10:19.730 --> 10:24.850]  [SPEAKER_01]: because they don't hide behind any walls of delusions.
[10:25.870 --> 10:28.950]  [SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, that's pretty much all I want to say on that particular subject.
[10:28.950 --> 10:31.430]  [SPEAKER_01]: It was pretty annoying.
[10:31.630 --> 10:34.550]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure everybody out there saw at least one story about this.
[10:36.630 --> 10:41.870]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I can't say any of those stories really reported what happened.
[10:43.570 --> 10:46.410]  [SPEAKER_01]: Or, in this case, what didn't happen.
[10:50.660 --> 10:54.680]  [SPEAKER_01]: We're taking phone calls at 212-279-3400.
[10:55.360 --> 11:09.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'd like to devote most of the program tonight to listener phone calls as we so rarely get a chance to answer questions and really get to know who's out there.
[11:09.520 --> 11:14.980]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, give us a call and we'll try to get everybody on that gets through to our line.
[11:15.080 --> 11:16.920]  [SPEAKER_01]: 212-279-3400.
[11:17.620 --> 11:28.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: There's one thing I'd also like to focus attention on, something new that we kind of saw coming, something we've been talking about on this program for for some time.
[11:29.040 --> 11:45.080]  [SPEAKER_01]: And that's the notion of telephone numbers that no longer change whenever you move around, but a telephone number that goes with you from the cradle to the grave.
[11:46.920 --> 11:51.600]  [SPEAKER_01]: A telephone number that by penalty of law is assigned to every citizen.
[11:52.460 --> 11:58.420]  [SPEAKER_01]: Citizens are required to answer to their number when their number calls out to them.
[12:00.280 --> 12:04.360]  [SPEAKER_01]: This is for a happier life.
[12:08.370 --> 12:12.210]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, we may be a couple of years away from that, but we're closer.
[12:12.550 --> 12:13.170]  [SPEAKER_01]: We're getting there.
[12:13.590 --> 12:24.410]  [SPEAKER_01]: And today in the New York Times and various other places, it was announced that AT&T is devising just such a service.
[12:24.410 --> 12:31.270]  [SPEAKER_01]: and it's really not anything all that amazing.
[12:31.530 --> 12:32.390]  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's interesting.
[12:33.430 --> 12:40.230]  [SPEAKER_01]: But I'll get into why I don't think it's all that amazing and we'll also experiment a little bit.
[12:42.730 --> 12:47.210]  [SPEAKER_01]: The article is entitled Lifetime Telephone Numbers That Ring Anywhere You Go.
[12:47.310 --> 12:49.690]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, that in itself is kind of deceptive.
[12:49.690 --> 12:53.270]  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it could be in fact just that.
[12:53.330 --> 12:57.870]  [SPEAKER_01]: A lifetime telephone number that can follow you anyplace.
[12:57.990 --> 13:04.430]  [SPEAKER_01]: But it doesn't follow you anyplace and it's not a lifetime thing unless you want it to be.
[13:08.290 --> 13:10.990]  [SPEAKER_01]: We'll take a look at this article and we'll take some phone calls.
[13:11.070 --> 13:13.050]  [SPEAKER_01]: 212-279-3400
[13:16.120 --> 13:19.720]  [SPEAKER_01]: The article by Anthony Ramirez Tired of Telephone Tag?
[13:20.520 --> 13:36.940]  [SPEAKER_01]: People who want to be reached anywhere they go at home the office a friend's residence or at a vacation house can sign up for a single telephone number under a service to begin in June that AT&T announced yesterday.
[13:38.140 --> 14:08.360]  [SPEAKER_01]: The service the first of its kind which is not true but we'll get to that later the first of its kind is part of the emerging technology for personal communications networks that could someday revolutionize how people use telephones the service is somewhat cumbersome and is aimed mainly at consumers who tend to phone less often than business customers and make their calls during off-peak hours
[14:08.360 --> 14:28.040]  [SPEAKER_01]: like the early morning and evening But it's an important first step toward communications networks in which single phone numbers, like social security numbers, would be assigned to customers everywhere, allowing phone calls someday to follow them to any location,
[14:28.320 --> 14:29.720]  [SPEAKER_01]: if they wish.
[14:31.700 --> 14:35.540]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's the operative phrase there, if they wish.
[14:35.540 --> 14:46.940]  [SPEAKER_01]: Under the plan, subscribers to the nationwide service called EasyReach 700 would be assigned a permanent long-distance number that begins with 700.
[14:49.900 --> 14:55.380]  [SPEAKER_01]: Unlike most traditional area codes, the 700 area code does not identify a location.
[14:56.120 --> 15:03.860]  [SPEAKER_01]: And the individual numbers would remain with the subscribers as long as they live or until they grow dissatisfied with the service.
[15:03.860 --> 15:06.240]  [SPEAKER_01]: Or until they don't pay their bill, or whatever.
[15:06.960 --> 15:09.140]  [SPEAKER_01]: The average American... and this is interesting.
[15:09.240 --> 15:13.260]  [SPEAKER_01]: The average American changes his telephone number 11 times.
[15:14.240 --> 15:19.420]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's because the average American moves 11 times during a lifetime.
[15:19.840 --> 15:21.420]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's according to AT&T.
[15:21.700 --> 15:22.720]  [SPEAKER_01]: God knows where they got that.
[15:22.840 --> 15:28.080]  [SPEAKER_01]: But the 700 code allows for 6 million possible phone numbers.
[15:30.160 --> 15:51.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, you might say 7-digit number, that means, uh, there should be 9,999,999 possibilities, but, uh, they say some numbers are reserved for other uses, such as numbers beginning with 0, numbers beginning with 1, and you know, I don't know what the other ones,
[15:51.780 --> 15:57.120]  [SPEAKER_01]: uh, why the other ones wouldn't work, unless AT&T has them reserved for something else that we don't know about.
[15:57.800 --> 16:00.720]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, uh, so, uh, 6 million possible phone numbers.
[16:06.340 --> 16:11.360]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, obviously, everybody in the country can't subscribe to this service, or, uh, there'll be...
[16:12.480 --> 16:14.100]  [SPEAKER_01]: fights in the street and that kind of thing.
[16:14.980 --> 16:16.860]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, the cost of this is not...
[16:16.860 --> 16:18.240]  [SPEAKER_01]: all that unreasonable.
[16:21.600 --> 16:24.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: If the service actually proves to be a service.
[16:24.340 --> 16:28.760]  [SPEAKER_01]: The EasyReach program will cost $7 a month, and...
[16:29.340 --> 16:33.460]  [SPEAKER_01]: there's a one-time charge of $25 for the personal phone number...
[16:34.300 --> 16:39.500]  [SPEAKER_01]: which can be adapted, like vanity automobile license plates, to contain messages, like...
[16:39.500 --> 16:41.080]  [SPEAKER_01]: 700 Call Mom.
[16:42.660 --> 16:46.520]  [SPEAKER_01]: Of course, only one mom in the country will be able to be called on that number, but...
[16:46.880 --> 16:47.900]  [SPEAKER_01]: you get the idea.
[16:48.860 --> 16:51.200]  [SPEAKER_01]: It does not require a separate line...
[16:52.260 --> 16:52.740]  [SPEAKER_01]: or...
[16:52.740 --> 16:57.800]  [SPEAKER_01]: any kind of extra phone, but subscribers to MCI and Sprint and all those other companies...
[16:57.800 --> 17:00.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: have to dial into the AT&T network...
[17:00.340 --> 17:01.280]  [SPEAKER_01]: to use the service.
[17:01.380 --> 17:02.900]  [SPEAKER_01]: In other words, they'd have to dial 10288...
[17:03.720 --> 17:05.820]  [SPEAKER_01]: the AT&T carrier access code.
[17:07.220 --> 17:11.240]  [SPEAKER_01]: And callers will be billed at fixed rates rather than proportional to distance.
[17:11.520 --> 17:15.720]  [SPEAKER_01]: State-to-state rates will be $0.25 a minute from 8 a.m.
[17:15.740 --> 17:16.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: to 5 p.m.
[17:16.340 --> 17:17.000]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's expensive.
[17:17.200 --> 17:18.960]  [SPEAKER_01]: That is rather expensive...
[17:19.960 --> 17:22.160]  [SPEAKER_01]: for any phone call during the day.
[17:23.160 --> 17:25.380]  [SPEAKER_01]: $0.15 a minute all other times.
[17:25.780 --> 17:29.420]  [SPEAKER_01]: Roughly comparable or slightly more expensive than regular toll calls.
[17:30.460 --> 17:34.820]  [SPEAKER_01]: And prices for in-state calls will vary according to the local telephone company.
[17:34.820 --> 17:40.300]  [SPEAKER_01]: So the local phone company will still handle the local calls to the 700 number.
[17:40.440 --> 17:45.440]  [SPEAKER_01]: AT&T will handle it state-to-state and outside the local area.
[17:45.780 --> 17:51.320]  [SPEAKER_01]: The vast majority of customers for the nation's 140 million telephone lines...
[17:51.320 --> 17:57.460]  [SPEAKER_01]: will want to keep their familiar local telephone numbers for their homes, facsimile machines, computer modems, and pagers.
[17:58.480 --> 18:02.740]  [SPEAKER_01]: But if that number does not answer, a caller might then dial the 700 number.
[18:04.840 --> 18:07.980]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now the new service is going to be available on June 15th.
[18:08.080 --> 18:11.140]  [SPEAKER_01]: It allows subscribers to reprogram...
[18:11.750 --> 18:13.840]  [SPEAKER_01]: or program any nearby phone...
[18:14.490 --> 18:18.000]  [SPEAKER_01]: to receive a redirected call from a residence or business phone.
[18:18.240 --> 18:20.820]  [SPEAKER_01]: The EasyReach subscriber dials 0700...
[18:21.980 --> 18:24.320]  [SPEAKER_01]: then the personal number...
[18:24.320 --> 18:25.320]  [SPEAKER_01]: 7-digit phone number...
[18:25.320 --> 18:25.980]  [SPEAKER_01]: then...
[18:25.980 --> 18:29.600]  [SPEAKER_01]: they would enter a 4-digit personal identification number.
[18:29.960 --> 18:32.640]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's the maximum in security is 4 digits.
[18:34.080 --> 18:36.320]  [SPEAKER_01]: Then after that they would dial 1...
[18:37.180 --> 18:38.530]  [SPEAKER_01]: then the pound sign...
[18:39.220 --> 18:42.120]  [SPEAKER_01]: and finally the number to which calls are to go.
[18:42.220 --> 18:44.450]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, I respect the times for actually printing...
[18:45.000 --> 18:49.880]  [SPEAKER_01]: that you have to dial 1 then the pound sign after you enter your 4-digit personal identification number...
[18:49.880 --> 18:52.280]  [SPEAKER_01]: because a lot of people are interested in that kind of thing.
[18:53.080 --> 18:54.740]  [SPEAKER_01]: And that's how it works.
[18:54.840 --> 18:55.960]  [SPEAKER_01]: Unlike call forwarding...
[18:55.960 --> 18:57.660]  [SPEAKER_01]: it sounds a lot like call forwarding, doesn't it?
[18:57.940 --> 19:01.280]  [SPEAKER_01]: And that's available from all kinds of local telephone companies.
[19:01.620 --> 19:05.110]  [SPEAKER_01]: This new service allows call forwarding at the subscribers' discretion...
[19:05.840 --> 19:07.960]  [SPEAKER_01]: as many times as they wish.
[19:09.800 --> 19:11.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: Another difference is that the...
[19:11.620 --> 19:15.400]  [SPEAKER_01]: new service can be programmed from any Touch-Tone phone...
[19:15.400 --> 19:17.520]  [SPEAKER_01]: which is far more convenient for people on the go...
[19:17.520 --> 19:18.900]  [SPEAKER_01]: than today's services...
[19:18.900 --> 19:21.600]  [SPEAKER_01]: which require the subscriber to go back to the original phone...
[19:21.600 --> 19:22.780]  [SPEAKER_01]: to enter each new destination.
[19:24.260 --> 19:27.440]  [SPEAKER_01]: Moreover, the subscriber can assign passwords...
[19:27.440 --> 19:30.900]  [SPEAKER_01]: actually special 4-digit numbers to friends and relatives...
[19:30.900 --> 19:33.140]  [SPEAKER_01]: to allow only the calls that are wanted...
[19:33.140 --> 19:37.540]  [SPEAKER_01]: so you can selectively receive calls to the 700 number...
[19:37.540 --> 19:39.400]  [SPEAKER_01]: or reject calls to the 700 number.
[19:39.840 --> 19:43.180]  [SPEAKER_01]: The subscriber can hand out as many as 19 passwords.
[19:46.340 --> 19:50.140]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, EasyReach could have some of the same drawbacks of call forwarding...
[19:51.220 --> 19:55.740]  [SPEAKER_01]: as says Elena Worrell, Director of Voice Services at Belcor.
[19:55.760 --> 19:57.500]  [SPEAKER_01]: If you forget to undo the call forwarding...
[19:57.500 --> 20:00.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: all your calls will go to the place you already were.
[20:02.820 --> 20:04.280]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, here's where it gets kind of weird.
[20:04.420 --> 20:07.060]  [SPEAKER_01]: The service is made possible by new computer programs...
[20:07.060 --> 20:10.680]  [SPEAKER_01]: and changes in AT&T's huge 5 ESS switches...
[20:10.680 --> 20:11.700]  [SPEAKER_01]: giant computers...
[20:11.700 --> 20:13.760]  [SPEAKER_01]: that can cover half a floor...
[20:13.760 --> 20:15.880]  [SPEAKER_01]: in a telephone central office.
[20:16.520 --> 20:18.500]  [SPEAKER_01]: These 5 ESS switches...
[20:18.500 --> 20:20.880]  [SPEAKER_01]: less than 100 around the country...
[20:20.880 --> 20:22.100]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not quite sure what that means...
[20:22.100 --> 20:25.960]  [SPEAKER_01]: because there's certainly more than 100 5 ESS switches in the country...
[20:25.960 --> 20:28.160]  [SPEAKER_01]: so we'll have to clarify that a little bit.
[20:28.160 --> 20:30.400]  [SPEAKER_01]: They handle operator-assisted calls...
[20:30.700 --> 20:31.980]  [SPEAKER_01]: and calling card calls.
[20:32.240 --> 20:35.460]  [SPEAKER_01]: The new programs involving millions of lines of computer code...
[20:35.460 --> 20:37.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: one of which is bound to be faulty somewhere...
[20:37.580 --> 20:39.500]  [SPEAKER_01]: we'll find out about that in future years.
[20:40.060 --> 20:42.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: They build personal profiles of subscribers...
[20:43.400 --> 20:45.960]  [SPEAKER_01]: that allow the computers to route calls...
[20:45.960 --> 20:47.880]  [SPEAKER_01]: quickly to any telephone line in the country...
[20:47.880 --> 20:49.400]  [SPEAKER_01]: except, of course...
[20:49.400 --> 20:51.420]  [SPEAKER_01]: Hawaii and Alaska.
[20:51.420 --> 20:51.840]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[20:53.160 --> 20:55.680]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, Robert Aquilina...
[20:56.740 --> 20:59.200]  [SPEAKER_01]: Network Services Vice President for AT&T...
[20:59.200 --> 20:59.960]  [SPEAKER_01]: says...
[20:59.960 --> 21:01.740]  [SPEAKER_01]: without a 700 number...
[21:01.740 --> 21:03.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: this service just wouldn't be possible...
[21:03.580 --> 21:06.220]  [SPEAKER_01]: because the problem of updating the computer's databases...
[21:06.220 --> 21:07.720]  [SPEAKER_01]: would be vastly more complex.
[21:08.200 --> 21:09.800]  [SPEAKER_01]: The EasyReach program...
[21:10.440 --> 21:11.840]  [SPEAKER_01]: could provide valuable lessons...
[21:11.840 --> 21:14.280]  [SPEAKER_01]: for establishing the vastly more complicated...
[21:14.280 --> 21:16.160]  [SPEAKER_01]: personal communications networks...
[21:16.160 --> 21:17.260]  [SPEAKER_01]: that would tie together...
[21:17.260 --> 21:19.360]  [SPEAKER_01]: residential and business customers...
[21:19.360 --> 21:20.800]  [SPEAKER_01]: traditional telephones...
[21:20.800 --> 21:21.920]  [SPEAKER_01]: along with cellular telephones...
[21:21.920 --> 21:22.280]  [SPEAKER_01]: pagers...
[21:22.280 --> 21:23.380]  [SPEAKER_01]: and other handheld devices.
[21:25.240 --> 21:27.040]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, the first thing we'll learn...
[21:27.040 --> 21:29.000]  [SPEAKER_01]: is whether people want this service...
[21:29.000 --> 21:30.100]  [SPEAKER_01]: says Mr. Aquilina.
[21:30.540 --> 21:33.440]  [SPEAKER_01]: For instance, call forwarding has been around...
[21:33.440 --> 21:34.300]  [SPEAKER_01]: for quite some time...
[21:34.300 --> 21:37.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: yet, not all that many people use it.
[21:38.000 --> 21:40.000]  [SPEAKER_01]: And it's thought that the reason for that...
[21:40.000 --> 21:42.040]  [SPEAKER_01]: is because it's a little too complicated.
[21:42.040 --> 21:44.460]  [SPEAKER_01]: People have to remember to un-forward their calls...
[21:44.460 --> 21:47.240]  [SPEAKER_01]: and they have to be at the particular phone...
[21:47.240 --> 21:48.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: to program it in the first place...
[21:49.760 --> 21:50.240]  [SPEAKER_01]: so...
[21:51.040 --> 21:52.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: things can get kind of...
[21:54.200 --> 21:55.800]  [SPEAKER_01]: kind of full of hassles.
[21:56.600 --> 21:57.080]  [SPEAKER_01]: So...
[21:57.080 --> 21:58.880]  [SPEAKER_01]: call waiting is the number one...
[21:59.460 --> 22:01.000]  [SPEAKER_01]: feature that people subscribe to.
[22:01.080 --> 22:02.220]  [SPEAKER_01]: Call forwarding is number two...
[22:02.220 --> 22:04.460]  [SPEAKER_01]: but it's dramatically...
[22:05.060 --> 22:06.640]  [SPEAKER_01]: less than the number of people...
[22:06.640 --> 22:07.760]  [SPEAKER_01]: that subscribe to call waiting.
[22:08.780 --> 22:10.440]  [SPEAKER_01]: Again, that article from...
[22:10.440 --> 22:11.680]  [SPEAKER_01]: today's New York Times...
[22:11.680 --> 22:12.980]  [SPEAKER_01]: by Anthony Ramirez...
[22:12.980 --> 22:14.100]  [SPEAKER_01]: front page article too.
[22:14.200 --> 22:15.320]  [SPEAKER_01]: It is an important story.
[22:15.540 --> 22:16.900]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's an important new service.
[22:17.380 --> 22:17.820]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now...
[22:17.820 --> 22:19.360]  [SPEAKER_01]: a couple of things here.
[22:19.480 --> 22:20.700]  [SPEAKER_01]: First of all, it's not...
[22:20.700 --> 22:22.840]  [SPEAKER_01]: the first time such a service has been offered.
[22:23.000 --> 22:24.980]  [SPEAKER_01]: As we've mentioned many, many times before...
[22:25.820 --> 22:28.000]  [SPEAKER_01]: Cable and Wireless has a service...
[22:28.000 --> 22:30.080]  [SPEAKER_01]: for 800 numbers that...
[22:30.080 --> 22:31.940]  [SPEAKER_01]: allows you to program...
[22:31.940 --> 22:33.560]  [SPEAKER_01]: wherever it is you want them to go.
[22:33.640 --> 22:36.020]  [SPEAKER_01]: In other words, you give somebody your 800 number...
[22:36.020 --> 22:38.220]  [SPEAKER_01]: and your 800 number can...
[22:38.220 --> 22:39.720]  [SPEAKER_01]: ring you at your home.
[22:39.780 --> 22:40.840]  [SPEAKER_01]: It can ring you at your office.
[22:40.840 --> 22:42.600]  [SPEAKER_01]: It can ring you on your pager...
[22:42.600 --> 22:43.600]  [SPEAKER_01]: or even your fax machine.
[22:43.740 --> 22:45.200]  [SPEAKER_01]: It can go any place you wanted to...
[22:45.200 --> 22:45.800]  [SPEAKER_01]: in the country.
[22:46.960 --> 22:47.800]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's that simple.
[22:48.380 --> 22:48.780]  So...
[22:48.780 --> 22:50.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: this service has been around...
[22:50.580 --> 22:53.000]  [SPEAKER_01]: and actually the rate is about the same...
[22:53.000 --> 22:54.320]  [SPEAKER_01]: to call the 800 number.
[22:54.400 --> 22:56.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: Of course, you pay the bill then...
[22:56.340 --> 22:58.480]  [SPEAKER_01]: but the rate is pretty much the same...
[22:58.480 --> 23:00.840]  [SPEAKER_01]: 25 cents a minute, I believe, in the daytime...
[23:01.620 --> 23:03.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: and less than the evening and night, of course.
[23:04.560 --> 23:05.020]  [SPEAKER_01]: So...
[23:05.520 --> 23:06.400]  [SPEAKER_01]: let's just...
[23:06.400 --> 23:07.640]  [SPEAKER_01]: clear that up right away.
[23:08.020 --> 23:09.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, I talked to somebody at AT&T...
[23:10.120 --> 23:10.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: today.
[23:11.020 --> 23:12.840]  [SPEAKER_01]: In fact, I told them about the service.
[23:13.000 --> 23:14.040]  [SPEAKER_01]: They weren't aware of it...
[23:14.040 --> 23:14.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: yet.
[23:14.580 --> 23:15.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: I guess it's a...
[23:15.620 --> 23:16.800]  [SPEAKER_01]: a brand new thing...
[23:16.800 --> 23:17.520]  [SPEAKER_01]: they haven't quite...
[23:17.520 --> 23:18.260]  [SPEAKER_01]: gotten around to...
[23:18.260 --> 23:19.260]  [SPEAKER_01]: telling everybody about.
[23:19.440 --> 23:20.720]  [SPEAKER_01]: But they found the...
[23:21.370 --> 23:22.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: the documentation on it.
[23:23.160 --> 23:24.540]  [SPEAKER_01]: And they went and looked it up...
[23:24.540 --> 23:26.100]  [SPEAKER_01]: and were giving me all this information.
[23:26.100 --> 23:27.840]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, it seems that...
[23:27.840 --> 23:29.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: with this particular...
[23:29.340 --> 23:31.060]  [SPEAKER_01]: 700 number service...
[23:31.060 --> 23:32.460]  [SPEAKER_01]: you have the option...
[23:32.460 --> 23:34.180]  [SPEAKER_01]: of paying for the call...
[23:34.180 --> 23:34.920]  [SPEAKER_01]: yourself...
[23:34.920 --> 23:36.740]  [SPEAKER_01]: or having the person calling you...
[23:36.740 --> 23:37.420]  [SPEAKER_01]: pay for the call.
[23:37.800 --> 23:38.780]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm wondering...
[23:38.780 --> 23:40.460]  [SPEAKER_01]: how are they going to convey...
[23:40.460 --> 23:41.240]  [SPEAKER_01]: that information...
[23:41.240 --> 23:42.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: when the person makes the call?
[23:43.040 --> 23:44.240]  [SPEAKER_01]: Or is it just going to be...
[23:44.240 --> 23:45.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: a big surprise on the phone bill?
[23:46.980 --> 23:47.900]  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, think of it...
[23:47.900 --> 23:49.100]  [SPEAKER_01]: a number that you call...
[23:49.100 --> 23:50.820]  [SPEAKER_01]: which maybe you'll get charged for...
[23:50.820 --> 23:52.260]  [SPEAKER_01]: or maybe the person you're calling...
[23:52.260 --> 23:53.020]  [SPEAKER_01]: will get charged for.
[23:53.120 --> 23:53.460]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's...
[23:54.100 --> 23:54.840]  [SPEAKER_01]: it's bizarre...
[23:54.840 --> 23:56.100]  [SPEAKER_01]: something that really has not...
[23:56.100 --> 23:57.520]  [SPEAKER_01]: ever happened before.
[23:57.940 --> 24:00.160]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, the 700 area code...
[24:00.160 --> 24:00.860]  [SPEAKER_01]: is an interesting one.
[24:00.960 --> 24:01.400]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's...
[24:01.400 --> 24:02.940]  [SPEAKER_01]: it's got...
[24:02.940 --> 24:04.920]  [SPEAKER_01]: a couple of things in it now.
[24:05.220 --> 24:07.060]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's got Alliance Teleconferencing...
[24:07.060 --> 24:09.840]  [SPEAKER_01]: 0700-456-1000...
[24:10.420 --> 24:13.220]  [SPEAKER_01]: that allows you to tie people together...
[24:13.220 --> 24:14.980]  [SPEAKER_01]: all over the world...
[24:14.980 --> 24:16.220]  [SPEAKER_01]: into huge teleconferences.
[24:16.320 --> 24:17.120]  [SPEAKER_01]: But be careful...
[24:17.120 --> 24:18.140]  [SPEAKER_01]: if you call that...
[24:18.140 --> 24:18.560]  [SPEAKER_01]: you could...
[24:18.560 --> 24:20.180]  [SPEAKER_01]: you could easily...
[24:20.180 --> 24:21.560]  [SPEAKER_01]: dwarf the charges...
[24:21.560 --> 24:22.520]  [SPEAKER_01]: of any 900 number...
[24:22.520 --> 24:23.160]  [SPEAKER_01]: by calling that...
[24:23.160 --> 24:23.600]  [SPEAKER_01]: because...
[24:23.600 --> 24:24.700]  [SPEAKER_01]: not only do you have to pay...
[24:24.840 --> 24:26.380]  [SPEAKER_01]: use the teleconferencing service...
[24:26.380 --> 24:27.280]  [SPEAKER_01]: you have to pay for each...
[24:27.280 --> 24:27.960]  [SPEAKER_01]: and every...
[24:27.960 --> 24:29.220]  [SPEAKER_01]: long distance call...
[24:29.220 --> 24:29.600]  [SPEAKER_01]: that you make.
[24:29.720 --> 24:30.740]  [SPEAKER_01]: And seeing as how you can...
[24:30.740 --> 24:31.820]  [SPEAKER_01]: tie together something like...
[24:31.820 --> 24:33.640]  [SPEAKER_01]: 40 different phone calls...
[24:33.640 --> 24:34.800]  [SPEAKER_01]: if you...
[24:34.800 --> 24:36.160]  [SPEAKER_01]: simply got on the...
[24:36.160 --> 24:37.220]  [SPEAKER_01]: Alliance Teleconferencing...
[24:37.220 --> 24:38.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: and patched together...
[24:38.340 --> 24:40.920]  [SPEAKER_01]: a bunch of international calls...
[24:40.920 --> 24:42.140]  [SPEAKER_01]: you could...
[24:42.140 --> 24:43.200]  [SPEAKER_01]: very...
[24:43.200 --> 24:44.120]  [SPEAKER_01]: very quickly...
[24:44.120 --> 24:44.760]  [SPEAKER_01]: wipe out any...
[24:44.760 --> 24:45.840]  [SPEAKER_01]: any small company...
[24:45.840 --> 24:46.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: or...
[24:46.340 --> 24:47.000]  [SPEAKER_01]: any...
[24:47.000 --> 24:47.900]  [SPEAKER_01]: any homeowner...
[24:47.900 --> 24:48.300]  [SPEAKER_01]: that...
[24:48.300 --> 24:49.520]  [SPEAKER_01]: might be unfortunate enough...
[24:49.520 --> 24:49.840]  [SPEAKER_01]: to...
[24:49.840 --> 24:51.440]  [SPEAKER_01]: to dial that number...
[24:51.440 --> 24:52.740]  [SPEAKER_01]: and play around with it...
[24:52.740 --> 24:53.200]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now...
[24:53.200 --> 24:55.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: that's significant because...
[24:55.340 --> 24:58.140]  [SPEAKER_01]: 700 numbers can be dangerous...
[24:58.140 --> 24:59.320]  [SPEAKER_01]: they can be...
[24:59.320 --> 25:00.300]  [SPEAKER_01]: as dangerous as...
[25:00.300 --> 25:01.260]  [SPEAKER_01]: 900 numbers...
[25:01.260 --> 25:01.840]  [SPEAKER_01]: and...
[25:01.840 --> 25:02.760]  [SPEAKER_01]: that means...
[25:02.760 --> 25:03.840]  [SPEAKER_01]: a lot of people will be...
[25:03.840 --> 25:04.840]  [SPEAKER_01]: opting to block...
[25:05.420 --> 25:07.320]  [SPEAKER_01]: 700 calls...
[25:07.320 --> 25:08.900]  [SPEAKER_01]: and this will make it difficult...
[25:09.560 --> 25:10.860]  [SPEAKER_01]: this will make it rather...
[25:10.860 --> 25:11.900]  [SPEAKER_01]: difficult to...
[25:13.200 --> 25:13.920]  [SPEAKER_01]: to...
[25:13.920 --> 25:15.260]  [SPEAKER_01]: make calls...
[25:15.260 --> 25:17.440]  [SPEAKER_01]: You're not allowed to make calls.
[25:18.640 --> 25:26.260]  [SPEAKER_01]: The other thing that's going to be kind of confusing is the fact that 700 numbers are carrier-specific.
[25:26.260 --> 25:33.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: In other words, you can't call this particular 700 number on MCI or on Sprint.
[25:33.620 --> 25:37.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: You can only call it on the carrier that it's assigned to.
[25:37.740 --> 25:41.120]  [SPEAKER_01]: So AT&T can have a whole line of 700 numbers.
[25:41.120 --> 25:43.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: MCI can have a whole line of other 700 numbers.
[25:43.640 --> 25:52.360]  [SPEAKER_01]: In fact, theoretically, I suppose it's even possible for two companies to have the same phone number but have it going to two different things.
[25:52.940 --> 25:56.520]  [SPEAKER_01]: Not certain about that, but it does seem like it would be possible.
[25:56.580 --> 25:58.920]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, let's do a little experiment here.
[25:58.980 --> 26:03.400]  [SPEAKER_01]: Let's see what happens when we try calling a 700 number from here.
[26:03.560 --> 26:06.900]  [SPEAKER_01]: Typical radio station in the middle of a typical city.
[26:09.040 --> 26:14.300]  [SPEAKER_01]: And we want to call a 700 number located someplace.
[26:14.560 --> 26:16.120]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, they don't have these personal ones yet.
[26:16.500 --> 26:19.300]  [SPEAKER_01]: They will, but presumably the same thing will happen.
[26:19.300 --> 26:23.360]  [SPEAKER_01]: First, what we do is we request a dial tone from our local phone company.
[26:23.820 --> 26:25.200]  [SPEAKER_01]: And our request is granted.
[26:25.760 --> 26:29.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: With kind of a staticky line, though, I'm going to try for another line.
[26:30.660 --> 26:31.200]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's better.
[26:32.080 --> 26:34.680]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, let's dial away.
[26:36.280 --> 26:39.960]  [SPEAKER_01]: We're going to try, uh, the alliance number.
[27:08.880 --> 27:12.860]  [SPEAKER_01]: This has got to be the worst quality recording I've ever heard in my life.
[27:13.080 --> 27:18.180]  [SPEAKER_01]: This has got to be the worst quality recording I've ever heard in my life.
[27:23.530 --> 27:40.010]  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know how they managed to, uh, to make a recording sound like that, but, uh, basically, I guess what we can learn from this is for some reason or another, calls to 700 area code numbers are, are not permitted from this location.
[27:42.470 --> 27:46.730]  [SPEAKER_01]: Which means that the service AT&T is offering would be completely useless from here.
[27:48.410 --> 27:50.710]  [SPEAKER_01]: And presumably from a lot of other places as well.
[27:53.650 --> 27:54.890]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, it's a good idea.
[27:58.130 --> 28:11.150]  [SPEAKER_01]: But, I question how much of a difference it's really going to make, especially since there are services like this available in the form of 800 numbers, and certainly more services like that could be made available.
[28:11.150 --> 28:18.910]  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if, uh, we need to have such a massive, uh, publicity blitz, but we'll see what happens.
[28:19.110 --> 28:24.170]  [SPEAKER_01]: We'll be playing with this on the air and off the air, and we'll report our findings.
[28:24.450 --> 28:40.350]  [SPEAKER_01]: And if anybody out there has anything interesting they'd like to share, please, uh, either call it in, 212-279-3400, or mail it in to, off the hook, care of WBAI, 505 8th Avenue, New York, New York, 10018.
[28:42.390 --> 28:47.850]  [SPEAKER_01]: And we're going to take some phone calls, 212-279-3400.
[28:48.070 --> 29:05.890]  [SPEAKER_01]: If anybody has questions about, uh, computer hacking, how the media portrays it, new technology, new threats to individual liberties via technology, or questions about your phone, any of those things we'll, uh, be happy to talk about, because that's what we're here for.
[29:07.050 --> 29:07.790]  [SPEAKER_01]: Good evening.
[29:08.150 --> 29:09.130]  Good evening, Emmanuel.
[29:09.490 --> 29:11.210]  [SPEAKER_01]: Having a little bit of trouble hearing you.
[29:11.830 --> 29:15.230]  [SPEAKER_07]: I'm, uh, so happy to have your program maintained.
[29:15.570 --> 29:18.050]  [SPEAKER_07]: You know, I had fear that you would be off.
[29:18.290 --> 29:21.370]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I had that same fear, but I'm trying to figure out why you're so low.
[29:21.870 --> 29:22.570]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, I want to...
[29:22.570 --> 29:23.470]  [SPEAKER_01]: Turn the volume up.
[29:23.930 --> 29:26.390]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I'm wondering if it's your line, or if it's...
[29:26.390 --> 29:28.510]  [SPEAKER_01]: Come on now, let's play it straight.
[29:28.510 --> 29:29.210]  [SPEAKER_01]: No, wait...
[29:29.210 --> 29:33.530]  [SPEAKER_01]: No, look, usually I do mess around with this person, but today I swear I'm not doing it.
[29:33.630 --> 29:35.970]  [SPEAKER_01]: You're coming in very low for some reason, and I don't know why.
[29:36.390 --> 29:37.370]  [SPEAKER_07]: You can't hear me?
[29:37.470 --> 29:39.690]  [SPEAKER_01]: I can hear you, but you sound very, very far away.
[29:41.130 --> 29:41.990]  [SPEAKER_01]: Keep talking, though.
[29:42.250 --> 29:43.190]  All right, now...
[29:43.190 --> 29:44.530]  [SPEAKER_01]: I can't believe I just said that.
[29:44.630 --> 29:45.110]  [SPEAKER_01]: But keep talking.
[29:45.330 --> 29:46.290]  Ha, ha, ha, ha!
[29:46.430 --> 29:46.850]  It's a...
[29:46.850 --> 29:47.890]  It's a first.
[29:48.190 --> 29:48.610]  [SPEAKER_07]: Ha, ha, ha.
[29:49.110 --> 29:50.910]  [SPEAKER_07]: All right, are you getting any better?
[29:51.250 --> 29:55.430]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, actually, it's not, but, uh, say what you want to say, and then, you know...
[29:55.430 --> 29:57.150]  [SPEAKER_01]: We'll call you on another line, then.
[29:57.150 --> 29:58.250]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, you want to do that?
[29:58.310 --> 29:58.830]  [SPEAKER_01]: Sure, thank you.
[29:58.970 --> 29:59.110]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[30:00.050 --> 30:02.370]  [SPEAKER_01]: And knowing him, he'll get another line very quickly.
[30:02.470 --> 30:06.330]  [SPEAKER_01]: Even though this line is already taken up by another caller, somehow he'll get through.
[30:06.430 --> 30:07.250]  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know how he does it.
[30:07.610 --> 30:08.130]  [SPEAKER_01]: Good evening.
[30:08.750 --> 30:09.010]  Hello.
[30:10.030 --> 30:14.110]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, I think maybe it's our phone lines, because everybody seems kind of low now.
[30:14.310 --> 30:15.790]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay, I'll try to speak up.
[30:16.010 --> 30:16.250]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[30:16.250 --> 30:20.660]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, uh, introduction.
[30:21.840 --> 30:24.860]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, uh, I would...
[30:24.860 --> 30:27.160]  [SPEAKER_08]: I think I would like to become a hacker.
[30:27.440 --> 30:31.320]  [SPEAKER_01]: I think I found out that the problem is somebody was messing around with the controls on the phone.
[30:31.460 --> 30:32.400]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, I figured it out.
[30:32.660 --> 30:33.080]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now I can...
[30:33.080 --> 30:34.080]  [SPEAKER_08]: I'd like to become a hacker.
[30:34.300 --> 30:35.280]  [SPEAKER_01]: You want to become a hacker.
[30:35.420 --> 30:36.200]  [SPEAKER_08]: And when I...
[30:36.200 --> 30:40.200]  [SPEAKER_08]: And when I get my computer, I will certainly use it.
[30:40.360 --> 30:40.920]  [SPEAKER_08]: Thank you.
[30:41.420 --> 30:43.020]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, that sounds kind of ominous.
[30:43.100 --> 30:45.220]  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know exactly what we have in store from that person.
[30:45.340 --> 30:48.600]  [SPEAKER_01]: But, uh, I wipe my hands of any responsibility.
[30:49.560 --> 30:51.220]  [SPEAKER_01]: Computers are little tools.
[30:51.400 --> 30:53.820]  [SPEAKER_01]: And how people use their tools is none of my concern.
[30:54.000 --> 30:54.360]  [SPEAKER_01]: Good evening.
[30:55.060 --> 30:55.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, hi.
[30:55.600 --> 30:56.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: Can you hear me?
[30:56.260 --> 30:57.180]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I hear you fine.
[30:57.720 --> 31:00.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, I wanted to just mention a couple of points.
[31:00.320 --> 31:09.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: Um, first of all, on the business of, uh, the media and the use of the word hacker, I think that maybe it's time for the, uh, the computer community to come up with a new word.
[31:09.600 --> 31:10.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: Because I think that...
[31:19.100 --> 31:25.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: I always wondered how they protected you when you made a mail order, uh, uh, purchase using your credit card over the phone.
[31:25.980 --> 31:27.300]  [SPEAKER_01]: They don't protect you very well at all.
[31:27.380 --> 31:31.560]  [SPEAKER_01]: In fact, many times the mail order companies share your credit card information with other people.
[31:31.740 --> 31:33.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, let me tell you what they did in my case.
[31:33.400 --> 31:33.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[31:33.500 --> 31:36.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: It had so happened that I had, uh, had a change of address.
[31:37.860 --> 31:39.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: Um, and I had notified...
[31:39.680 --> 31:42.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: I had a new mailing address from my credit card.
[31:42.300 --> 31:45.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, so, the credit card company had one mailing address.
[31:45.740 --> 31:49.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I wanted the merchandise shipped to a different address than my mailing address.
[31:50.060 --> 31:50.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[31:50.620 --> 31:53.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: Than the, than the address that they had on their records.
[31:53.560 --> 31:53.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[31:54.360 --> 31:56.760]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's a very common form of credit card fraud.
[31:56.880 --> 31:57.660]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, anyway...
[31:57.660 --> 32:07.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: But what I did when I, when it, what happened was, when I did that, um, and I gave them the, the order, um, the credit card company called me up.
[32:07.900 --> 32:18.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, in other words, they didn't accept the, the order because there was a mismatch in the billing address, uh, and, um, where I wanted the merchandise delivered.
[32:18.880 --> 32:22.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: So they did trap that, which I was kind of impressed with.
[32:22.940 --> 32:30.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, and, and I had to go through giving them certain information to prove, you know, that I was the, the, the person, uh, who had the card.
[32:30.820 --> 32:33.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: And then they, they approved the, uh, the purchase.
[32:34.180 --> 32:39.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: But they did do some kind of a security check, which I thought was, was more than I thought they had been doing.
[32:40.480 --> 32:42.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: So anyway, that's one positive note.
[32:43.040 --> 32:48.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: Um, I just thought I'd mention also to your listeners, this is kind of a minor thing, but it was sort of a little pain.
[32:48.560 --> 32:54.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: I, I, I called up the phone company to try to get a, uh, a directory for an area outside of New York City.
[32:55.160 --> 32:56.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: And it used to be you could get those for free.
[32:56.820 --> 32:58.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: How far outside New York City?
[32:58.840 --> 33:00.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: Um, Dutchess County.
[33:00.660 --> 33:00.740]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[33:00.740 --> 33:01.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: Which is not that far.
[33:01.680 --> 33:01.940]  [SPEAKER_01]: All right.
[33:02.060 --> 33:02.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: A little far out.
[33:02.880 --> 33:04.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: But anyway, it's not free anymore.
[33:04.820 --> 33:05.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: It was 20 bucks.
[33:06.080 --> 33:09.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, um, you know, I was a little bit, uh, pissed off about that.
[33:09.220 --> 33:11.840]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well, you know, this is something that's, that's been happening slowly.
[33:12.060 --> 33:12.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: No.
[33:12.520 --> 33:13.420]  [SPEAKER_01]: I can't believe there's...
[33:13.420 --> 33:16.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: A few years ago, I, I had a, I have an older copy of the thing.
[33:16.500 --> 33:17.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: And a few years ago, it was free.
[33:17.740 --> 33:17.900]  [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[33:18.000 --> 33:20.040]  [SPEAKER_01]: And also directory assistance was free, too.
[33:20.200 --> 33:20.780]  [SPEAKER_01]: They were both free.
[33:20.780 --> 33:21.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, that was even further back.
[33:21.900 --> 33:26.180]  [SPEAKER_01]: And, and the, the consolation to charging for directory assistance was that you could always get directories.
[33:26.180 --> 33:27.940]  [SPEAKER_01]: But now, you know, increasingly...
[33:27.940 --> 33:28.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: That either.
[33:28.580 --> 33:28.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: Right.
[33:28.640 --> 33:30.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: So they keep nipping away at you.
[33:30.640 --> 33:32.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: I also wanted to mention about cable and wireless.
[33:32.820 --> 33:33.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: I had called them up.
[33:34.020 --> 33:38.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: And supposedly, they really only deal with business accounts, not with personal accounts.
[33:38.420 --> 33:40.280]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, they are, they do lean towards businesses.
[33:40.280 --> 33:40.780]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's true.
[33:40.920 --> 33:43.980]  [SPEAKER_01]: But, uh, we're all small business, small businesses in some sense.
[33:44.140 --> 33:45.500]  [SPEAKER_01]: So we can get around that.
[33:45.680 --> 33:49.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, I also want to ask you, are you going to have a monthly meeting this Friday, or...
[33:49.280 --> 33:49.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, yes.
[33:50.040 --> 33:51.120]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm glad you reminded me.
[33:51.200 --> 33:52.660]  [SPEAKER_01]: I might not have gone if you hadn't.
[33:52.660 --> 33:59.220]  [SPEAKER_01]: But, uh, yes, the monthly 2600 meeting takes place every, um, first Friday of the month, from 5 p.m.
[33:59.280 --> 33:59.360]  [SPEAKER_01]: to 6...
[33:59.360 --> 34:04.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, I went up there to the City Court building last, uh, I guess the first, uh, Friday of the last month, and I couldn't find it.
[34:04.800 --> 34:06.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: I didn't know where, where it was.
[34:06.340 --> 34:08.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: Where, where specifically in the building is it?
[34:08.480 --> 34:11.680]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, you see, we, we take pride in blending into the scenery.
[34:12.120 --> 34:12.980]  [SPEAKER_01]: But, uh, basically...
[34:12.980 --> 34:16.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, how would somebody know where the meeting, that, that there's a meeting there?
[34:16.700 --> 34:17.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: There's a bunch of tables there.
[34:17.960 --> 34:19.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's sort of an atrium area.
[34:19.360 --> 34:19.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: Right.
[34:19.700 --> 34:21.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we, we don't really hang out by the tables.
[34:21.760 --> 34:25.040]  [SPEAKER_01]: We hang out by the payphones, uh, near the elevators.
[34:25.820 --> 34:28.800]  [SPEAKER_01]: And, uh, you know, we, we, we don't really stand out very much.
[34:28.800 --> 34:31.940]  [SPEAKER_01]: We just sort of hang out and talk to other people and, and see who comes.
[34:32.080 --> 34:33.360]  [SPEAKER_01]: There's no real set agenda.
[34:33.580 --> 34:36.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: The thing is that there's a whole bunch of other tables, and how do you know who the meeting is?
[34:36.980 --> 34:40.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, uh, I might have passed by the meeting and not even really known it.
[34:40.300 --> 34:43.020]  [SPEAKER_01]: It does take a little bit of investigation on your part.
[34:43.020 --> 34:44.320]  [SPEAKER_01]: I, I, I grant you that.
[34:44.600 --> 34:46.200]  [SPEAKER_01]: But that's, that's part of the whole game.
[34:46.220 --> 34:48.480]  [SPEAKER_01]: You see, it's, it's not really a meeting kind of a thing.
[34:48.480 --> 34:51.320]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's just a gathering where you meet people that, uh...
[34:51.320 --> 34:52.500]  [SPEAKER_01]: I wasn't in the right area.
[34:52.600 --> 34:54.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: I just didn't, uh, wasn't intrusive enough.
[34:54.520 --> 34:54.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[34:54.760 --> 34:55.900]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you gotta be a little more intrusive.
[34:55.980 --> 34:56.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: You got it exactly.
[34:56.900 --> 34:57.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, thanks a lot.
[34:57.740 --> 34:57.980]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[34:58.600 --> 35:03.540]  [SPEAKER_01]: And again, for people that are interested, that meeting takes place on the first Friday of the month, uh, at the CityCore Center.
[35:04.040 --> 35:06.020]  [SPEAKER_01]: Right smack in the middle of Midtown Manhattan.
[35:06.220 --> 35:07.680]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's right, hackers have got nothing to hide.
[35:08.300 --> 35:10.720]  [SPEAKER_01]: And, uh, from 5 to 8 p.m.
[35:11.120 --> 35:15.700]  [SPEAKER_01]: Also, uh, interesting thing, uh, we now have meetings taking place in Washington, D.C.
[35:15.800 --> 35:17.860]  [SPEAKER_01]: as well, in Pentagon City of all places.
[35:18.640 --> 35:21.440]  [SPEAKER_01]: And, uh, other cities in addition to that.
[35:21.880 --> 35:23.160]  [SPEAKER_01]: Most, uh, most intriguing.
[35:23.340 --> 35:24.960]  [SPEAKER_01]: The interest level just continues to rise.
[35:26.840 --> 35:29.080]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's, uh, there's something wrong with that line, too.
[35:29.580 --> 35:30.480]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, let's try this one.
[35:30.940 --> 35:31.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: Good evening.
[35:31.900 --> 35:32.520]  [SPEAKER_10]: Good evening.
[35:32.760 --> 35:34.560]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yes, I'd like to ask you a question.
[35:34.740 --> 35:35.080]  [SPEAKER_01]: Go ahead.
[35:35.080 --> 35:37.880]  [SPEAKER_10]: A bit of, uh, I guess, telephone company trivia.
[35:38.180 --> 35:41.620]  [SPEAKER_10]: I don't know if it's allowed to be, um, disseminated or not.
[35:41.760 --> 35:43.580]  [SPEAKER_10]: But I used to know how to...
[35:43.580 --> 35:45.360]  [SPEAKER_10]: I used to know the number that you could...
[35:45.360 --> 35:51.080]  [SPEAKER_10]: If you're at a payphone and there's a number that you dial, you can get the number of the payphone.
[35:51.700 --> 35:55.380]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, and I don't know if they've changed it or what, but it doesn't work anymore.
[35:55.540 --> 35:56.200]  [SPEAKER_01]: Are you talking about 958?
[35:57.100 --> 35:58.080]  [SPEAKER_10]: 958 used to work.
[35:58.180 --> 35:58.620]  [SPEAKER_10]: It doesn't work.
[35:58.620 --> 35:59.660]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, you know, it's interesting.
[35:59.940 --> 36:01.520]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, where have you been trying it from?
[36:01.980 --> 36:05.320]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, I tried it from just the same payphones I used to.
[36:05.620 --> 36:05.840]  [SPEAKER_10]: New York...
[36:06.360 --> 36:08.140]  [SPEAKER_01]: New York City, Queens, Brooklyn?
[36:08.700 --> 36:09.100]  [SPEAKER_10]: Manhattan.
[36:09.420 --> 36:09.800]  [SPEAKER_01]: In Manhattan.
[36:10.440 --> 36:18.020]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, what you might try, what they, what they do is, they don't like people, uh, knowing these trade secrets of actually being able to read off your phone number.
[36:18.460 --> 36:22.160]  [SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes they'll make it so you'll get a, a fast busy, which I assume is what you're getting.
[36:22.520 --> 36:24.780]  [SPEAKER_10]: I don't think I got anything the last time I tried it.
[36:24.920 --> 36:25.100]  [SPEAKER_01]: Really?
[36:25.220 --> 36:30.180]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, uh, I know some phones give you a fast busy, however, if you try it a few times in a row, it does work.
[36:30.420 --> 36:30.680]  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh.
[36:31.020 --> 36:36.920]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's, because the repairmen know this, but the average person will give up after one try, or maybe two tries.
[36:37.380 --> 36:42.940]  [SPEAKER_01]: But, uh, you know, it's kind of a pain to have to do it five times in a row, but I'm told that it does work, uh, most of the time.
[36:43.080 --> 36:49.200]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, well that's helpful information to, uh, to have sometimes, because sometimes you may have someone at a payphone that you have to call.
[36:49.420 --> 36:51.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but you should also always do this.
[36:51.580 --> 36:52.940]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I stress this to everybody.
[36:53.260 --> 37:01.260]  [SPEAKER_01]: When you have somebody call you back at a payphone, call it yourself first to make sure that, A, it takes incoming phone calls, and B, that it rings audibly.
[37:01.480 --> 37:03.560]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, a lot of phones these days don't.
[37:03.680 --> 37:11.180]  [SPEAKER_01]: But for some reason, they think that they're going to cut down on, uh, on drug trafficking by not allowing payphones to accept phone calls, and it's really kind of silly.
[37:11.400 --> 37:11.820]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh-huh.
[37:12.020 --> 37:13.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: And it's very inconvenient for us.
[37:13.740 --> 37:14.420]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay, great.
[37:14.560 --> 37:15.140]  [SPEAKER_10]: Thanks for that.
[37:15.280 --> 37:15.540]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[37:15.780 --> 37:16.320]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay, goodnight.
[37:16.660 --> 37:18.540]  [SPEAKER_01]: 212-279-3400.
[37:18.700 --> 37:19.880]  [SPEAKER_01]: The program is off the hook.
[37:19.880 --> 37:21.980]  [SPEAKER_01]: We're on the air until 10 o'clock tonight.
[37:22.620 --> 37:23.260]  [SPEAKER_01]: Good evening.
[37:23.720 --> 37:24.160]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, hi.
[37:24.600 --> 37:25.120]  [SPEAKER_01]: How you doing?
[37:25.400 --> 37:25.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, yeah.
[37:26.140 --> 37:26.720]  [SPEAKER_05]: Are we on?
[37:26.940 --> 37:27.740]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, we're on.
[37:27.980 --> 37:28.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[37:28.960 --> 37:30.040]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, my name is Steve Cole.
[37:30.620 --> 37:31.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: First time caller.
[37:31.800 --> 37:32.680]  [SPEAKER_05]: Tuned in a little late tonight.
[37:32.880 --> 37:33.160]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh-huh.
[37:33.160 --> 37:33.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh-huh.
[37:34.080 --> 37:44.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: Are you aware of a notice that went out on computer bulletin boards from 48 Hours looking for scanner enthusiasts to pick up cellular and cordless phone calls?
[37:44.240 --> 37:44.680]  [SPEAKER_01]: They did that.
[37:44.800 --> 37:46.220]  [SPEAKER_01]: They called me as well.
[37:46.740 --> 37:47.180]  [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, they did.
[37:47.420 --> 37:47.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's interesting.
[37:48.120 --> 37:50.280]  [SPEAKER_05]: I just tuned in late, so I don't know if you got the mention.
[37:50.280 --> 37:56.840]  [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't realize they were blanketing the area so much, but I guess it's no secret 48 Hours will be doing something on scanning soon.
[37:57.100 --> 37:59.140]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, actually, they're doing something on privacy.
[37:59.140 --> 38:04.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: I spoke to myself a few weeks ago, and I think maybe the audience should know.
[38:04.540 --> 38:06.320]  [SPEAKER_05]: I do my own program on shortwave.
[38:06.440 --> 38:07.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: Matter of fact, I left a message for you.
[38:07.720 --> 38:10.460]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'd like to have you be a guest on our program.
[38:10.460 --> 38:12.420]  [SPEAKER_01]: You do a program on shortwave?
[38:12.700 --> 38:13.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: What station?
[38:13.620 --> 38:14.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, we're on shortwave.
[38:15.100 --> 38:15.400]  [SPEAKER_05]: Is that?
[38:15.480 --> 38:16.740]  [SPEAKER_05]: We're out of Radio New York International.
[38:16.760 --> 38:18.140]  [SPEAKER_05]: We're on shortwave on Sunday night.
[38:18.200 --> 38:18.980]  [SPEAKER_01]: Radio New York International.
[38:19.020 --> 38:20.480]  [SPEAKER_01]: You're the guys that used to be on the boat, right?
[38:20.720 --> 38:21.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: You got it.
[38:21.460 --> 38:21.820]  [SPEAKER_01]: Wow.
[38:22.060 --> 38:23.220]  [SPEAKER_05]: I wasn't with them back then.
[38:23.460 --> 38:23.700]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh-huh.
[38:23.820 --> 38:25.700]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, tell me how the station is doing now.
[38:25.820 --> 38:29.920]  [SPEAKER_01]: Actually, I thought you were broadcasting out of a station somewhere else in the country, like Kentucky or something.
[38:30.140 --> 38:32.020]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, we're on a transmitter out of Tennessee.
[38:32.220 --> 38:33.040]  [SPEAKER_01]: Tennessee, that's it.
[38:33.160 --> 38:33.440]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's right.
[38:33.540 --> 38:36.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: The station's out of Tennessee, and we send the signal down by phone line, and we're also on satellite.
[38:37.160 --> 38:39.360]  [SPEAKER_01]: And you share time with Gene Scott and people like that, right?
[38:39.360 --> 38:44.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, Gene Scott's on one transmitter all by himself, and we're on the other one for four hours every Sunday.
[38:45.180 --> 38:45.460]  [SPEAKER_01]: Really?
[38:45.600 --> 38:47.840]  [SPEAKER_01]: And you want to give us frequencies and time and all that?
[38:47.880 --> 38:50.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: We're on Sunday nights from 9 p.m.
[38:50.440 --> 38:54.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: until 1 local time here in the East, and it's called Radio New York International.
[38:55.420 --> 38:59.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: If you have a shortwave radio, we're at 7435, 7435.
[39:00.060 --> 39:01.140]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's WWCR.
[39:01.180 --> 39:04.640]  [SPEAKER_05]: Normally a religious station, and there are secular programs on it.
[39:05.040 --> 39:06.600]  [SPEAKER_05]: We're happy to be there on Sunday nights.
[39:06.720 --> 39:08.300]  [SPEAKER_01]: And you do a non-religious show, I imagine.
[39:08.300 --> 39:09.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: We do a secular show.
[39:09.600 --> 39:11.740]  [SPEAKER_05]: We do a program on communications called Crossband.
[39:11.740 --> 39:13.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm there every week for the first half hour.
[39:13.540 --> 39:17.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: And then it's mostly political and freedom of expression.
[39:17.780 --> 39:18.840]  [SPEAKER_01]: How far does your signal get?
[39:19.480 --> 39:24.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, we've gotten Bulgaria, I think Japan came in.
[39:25.240 --> 39:28.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: The stations had a lot of problems with signals in Australia.
[39:28.520 --> 39:30.240]  [SPEAKER_05]: They had to change frequency a couple of times.
[39:30.440 --> 39:30.700]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh-huh.
[39:31.920 --> 39:32.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: But we get around.
[39:33.080 --> 39:35.880]  [SPEAKER_05]: It gets around, and we have a lot of listeners across the country.
[39:36.340 --> 39:36.920]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, that's great.
[39:37.140 --> 39:47.960]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'd definitely be interested in talking to you further about that, because shortwave radio is something that a lot of people took an interest in during the war and kind of forgot about afterwards.
[39:48.500 --> 39:49.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: We're also on satellite.
[39:49.880 --> 40:00.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: There's a new satellite service, which is intending to feed and has already signed a couple of low-power TV stations and cable stations called the Becker Satellite Network.
[40:00.620 --> 40:01.640]  [SPEAKER_05]: We're relayed through there.
[40:02.020 --> 40:03.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: And they'll be going full-time in the fall.
[40:03.840 --> 40:08.240]  [SPEAKER_05]: Also, you can hear us in many areas across the country now on cable systems.
[40:08.440 --> 40:09.900]  [SPEAKER_01]: Does this cost you a lot of money to do this?
[40:10.380 --> 40:11.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, yeah.
[40:12.040 --> 40:13.680]  [SPEAKER_05]: It costs a bit of money.
[40:13.860 --> 40:16.160]  [SPEAKER_05]: We actually are listeners sponsored in part.
[40:17.140 --> 40:17.600]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh-huh.
[40:17.880 --> 40:18.060]  Yeah.
[40:18.520 --> 40:20.680]  [SPEAKER_05]: But we do take commercial advertising as well.
[40:20.800 --> 40:22.240]  [SPEAKER_01]: And where are most of your listeners based?
[40:23.100 --> 40:24.200]  [SPEAKER_05]: All across the country.
[40:24.400 --> 40:25.740]  [SPEAKER_05]: We get calls from Florida.
[40:26.020 --> 40:31.140]  [SPEAKER_05]: I get them from Ohio, Illinois, and I get them from New England, Long Island.
[40:31.140 --> 40:35.440]  [SPEAKER_05]: And we get them from California now, which is really pretty hard at this time of the year.
[40:35.820 --> 40:36.480]  [SPEAKER_01]: I see.
[40:36.780 --> 40:37.780]  [SPEAKER_05]: And Canada as well.
[40:38.520 --> 40:45.640]  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I heard something you might be interested in, actually, that Radio Havana is broadcasting on the AM dial.
[40:46.080 --> 40:51.140]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's interfering with stations, I believe, from about 1,200 to about 1,400 on the AM dial.
[40:51.300 --> 40:53.760]  [SPEAKER_05]: There are four frequencies right now in use.
[40:53.780 --> 40:55.720]  [SPEAKER_05]: I don't have them off the top of my head.
[40:55.860 --> 40:56.140]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh-huh.
[40:56.420 --> 41:05.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: But basically, they're retaliating, again, to TV Marti, which is another retaliation since TV Marti has expanded their hours.
[41:05.480 --> 41:10.440]  [SPEAKER_01]: But it's possible for people in the New York area to actually tune in and hear Radio Havana on their AM radios now.
[41:10.520 --> 41:11.560]  [SPEAKER_05]: Not a news-sensitive radio.
[41:11.680 --> 41:13.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: You used to pick up...
[41:13.120 --> 41:23.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: I used to pick it up at night anyway in Spanish, but now they're doing some particular programs designed in English for the American audience, not just relaying what's on in Cuba.
[41:24.520 --> 41:24.940]  [SPEAKER_01]: Fascinating.
[41:25.480 --> 41:27.160]  [SPEAKER_01]: All right, so did you have a particular question or anything?
[41:27.260 --> 41:29.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, well, we were discussing the 48-hours story.
[41:29.440 --> 41:29.720]  [SPEAKER_05]: Right.
[41:29.760 --> 41:37.460]  [SPEAKER_05]: We discussed that, and it looks like she's finally learned that the ECPA is out there and makes scanning of cellular calls illegal.
[41:38.060 --> 41:44.460]  [SPEAKER_05]: However, it looks like they're going to give a demonstration of how to pick up a cordless phone call at this point.
[41:44.460 --> 41:54.840]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I mean, I think that's kind of silly because cellular phone calls are very easy to listen to, and there's no reason why they can't show that people can easily listen to those as well as mobile phones.
[41:54.920 --> 41:59.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: It gives you a false sense of security if you think the ECPA is going to protect cellular phone calls.
[41:59.580 --> 42:09.800]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, I think they'll probably discuss it and say it, but to do an actual demonstration would cause a problem, legally, for the person who did it.
[42:09.900 --> 42:21.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: Even if they didn't appear on camera, if someone at the FCC or someone in the Justice Department decided to be, you know, that kind of person, what could happen is that CBS could, of course, get subpoenaed and everything else.
[42:21.660 --> 42:23.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: So they decided not to actually show a demonstration.
[42:23.860 --> 42:26.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: This is from what, as far as last week was concerned.
[42:26.820 --> 42:27.160]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh-huh.
[42:28.640 --> 42:39.320]  [SPEAKER_05]: But they will explain that it is possible, and it even was shown to by one of the engineers, that it could be picked up on one of the old-style 82-channel UHF VHF TV sets.
[42:39.400 --> 42:40.240]  [SPEAKER_01]: Right, very simply.
[42:40.420 --> 42:45.700]  [SPEAKER_01]: You simply take an old-style TV set and tune between the old UHF channels up there.
[42:45.820 --> 42:48.440]  [SPEAKER_05]: It gets 79-81 or something like that.
[42:48.520 --> 42:49.640]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's fairly simple to get.
[42:49.820 --> 42:50.580]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, very simple.
[42:50.580 --> 42:54.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: But they will demonstrate cordless phones, because there is a false sense of security.
[42:54.900 --> 43:03.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: People pick up a wireless phone of one nature or another and think they're talking on a wire, and the person next door could be listening to whatever you're doing.
[43:03.160 --> 43:03.640]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh-huh.
[43:03.840 --> 43:06.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: Something that I think they're going to bring to national attention.
[43:07.400 --> 43:17.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: There was a program, I think, last year, Exposé on NBC, which featured two of the editors of the very shortwave magazines actually talking about it, giving demonstrations of it.
[43:18.320 --> 43:18.760]  [SPEAKER_01]: Fascinating.
[43:18.760 --> 43:20.720]  [SPEAKER_01]: Listen, we want to move on to some more calls.
[43:20.980 --> 43:21.900]  [SPEAKER_01]: We'll call you after the show.
[43:22.140 --> 43:23.160]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, definitely do that.
[43:23.320 --> 43:23.660]  [SPEAKER_01]: Bye-bye.
[43:23.820 --> 43:24.080]  [SPEAKER_01]: All right.
[43:25.740 --> 43:31.300]  [SPEAKER_01]: And to add on to that point about cellular phone calls, yes, it's very simple.
[43:31.640 --> 43:39.820]  [SPEAKER_01]: People have demonstrated it for me many times, where you can just simply turn on a scanner and go through however many phone calls you want.
[43:39.820 --> 43:43.420]  [SPEAKER_01]: And it's amazing, the cross-section of America that you hear on a cellular phone call.
[43:43.960 --> 43:45.540]  [SPEAKER_01]: You do hear drug transactions.
[43:45.700 --> 43:46.500]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you hear lots of them.
[43:46.500 --> 43:53.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: And you have to wonder, what are these people thinking doing a drug transaction, basically on a PA system where everybody can hear you?
[43:53.620 --> 43:55.740]  [SPEAKER_01]: You hear credit card transactions.
[43:55.740 --> 43:59.060]  [SPEAKER_01]: You hear personal conversations of all sorts.
[43:59.420 --> 44:06.020]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I'd like to say, if CBS is not willing to demonstrate this, we'll demonstrate it here.
[44:06.200 --> 44:09.700]  [SPEAKER_01]: But we need help from people that have access to the equipment.
[44:09.700 --> 44:17.660]  [SPEAKER_01]: If you have cellular phone calls that you're able to listen to, and you want to send them to us anonymously, we won't ignore them.
[44:17.700 --> 44:18.400]  [SPEAKER_01]: Let's put it that way.
[44:19.020 --> 44:23.720]  [SPEAKER_01]: The address, WBAI 505 8th Avenue, New York, New York, 10018.
[44:24.500 --> 44:29.560]  [SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes you've got to do something loud and abrasive to wake people up.
[44:29.640 --> 44:34.200]  [SPEAKER_01]: And this is a good example of how that is necessary.
[44:34.360 --> 44:36.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: Cellular phone calls are not private.
[44:36.340 --> 44:37.780]  [SPEAKER_01]: They should be, but they're not.
[44:37.780 --> 44:42.200]  [SPEAKER_01]: And simply making it illegal to listen to them is really not solving the problem at all.
[44:42.280 --> 44:54.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: So if anybody wants to send in tapes to prove this, we'll be more than happy to point them in the proper direction to show people how unsafe it is.
[44:55.100 --> 45:00.920]  [SPEAKER_01]: But again, for your protection, because we probably will get subpoenaed for the information, keep it anonymous.
[45:02.180 --> 45:03.980]  [SPEAKER_01]: No harm with that.
[45:05.020 --> 45:07.920]  [SPEAKER_01]: All right, 212-279-3400.
[45:08.040 --> 45:11.080]  [SPEAKER_01]: You can also send it over to the magazine, 2600 P.O.
[45:11.100 --> 45:15.980]  [SPEAKER_01]: Box 752, Middle Island, New York, 11953.
[45:16.700 --> 45:17.040]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's right.
[45:17.780 --> 45:22.040]  [SPEAKER_01]: And either one of those addresses, just address it to my attention, Emmanuel Goldstein.
[45:22.300 --> 45:25.080]  [SPEAKER_01]: The program here is off the hook, and we're on for another 15 minutes.
[45:25.080 --> 45:26.080]  [SPEAKER_01]: Let's see who's out there.
[45:26.380 --> 45:27.040]  [SPEAKER_01]: Good evening.
[45:27.040 --> 45:28.760]  [SPEAKER_09]: Hello, this is B-A-I?
[45:28.920 --> 45:29.600]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, it is.
[45:29.660 --> 45:30.140]  [SPEAKER_01]: You're on the air.
[45:31.480 --> 45:31.900]  [SPEAKER_09]: Okay.
[45:32.080 --> 45:33.740]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, let me turn this radio off then.
[45:34.020 --> 45:34.280]  [SPEAKER_01]: All right.
[45:34.580 --> 45:34.900]  [SPEAKER_09]: Okay.
[45:35.680 --> 45:41.020]  [SPEAKER_09]: By the way, I am in Brooklyn and just tried two different 700 numbers.
[45:41.840 --> 45:44.460]  [SPEAKER_09]: I tried the one that gives you the carrier.
[45:44.460 --> 45:47.460]  [SPEAKER_09]: No, the 1-700-555-4141.
[45:48.300 --> 45:50.380]  [SPEAKER_01]: That tells you what your long-distance phone call is.
[45:50.400 --> 45:50.740]  [SPEAKER_01]: Area is, right.
[45:50.780 --> 45:50.900]  [SPEAKER_01]: All right.
[45:51.140 --> 45:52.060]  [SPEAKER_09]: That worked fine.
[45:52.340 --> 45:52.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[45:52.900 --> 46:02.020]  [SPEAKER_09]: However, when I tried the 700-456-1000 for Alliance, I got an equivalent recording to what you got, only with 718 substituted for 212.
[46:02.620 --> 46:03.040]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[46:03.080 --> 46:04.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: Did you try 0-700?
[46:05.480 --> 46:07.000]  [SPEAKER_09]: No, I tried 1-700.
[46:07.080 --> 46:08.980]  [SPEAKER_01]: No, you have to try 0-700 on that one.
[46:09.360 --> 46:13.560]  [SPEAKER_09]: I just want to let you know that we had similar situations occurring here than what you had happen up there.
[46:13.560 --> 46:13.860]  [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[46:13.980 --> 46:16.740]  [SPEAKER_01]: You see, the thing is, I did dial 0-700 and I got a recording.
[46:16.780 --> 46:17.040]  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, was 0?
[46:17.280 --> 46:17.560]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[46:17.760 --> 46:21.320]  [SPEAKER_01]: But I think you'll be able to get through, unless you have some sort of blocking.
[46:21.440 --> 46:22.780]  [SPEAKER_01]: I think VAI has blocking on that.
[46:22.900 --> 46:23.220]  [SPEAKER_09]: I don't.
[46:23.320 --> 46:25.140]  [SPEAKER_09]: And I don't really want to use Alliance.
[46:25.340 --> 46:26.700]  [SPEAKER_09]: I just wanted to see if it would go through.
[46:26.980 --> 46:27.260]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh-huh.
[46:27.480 --> 46:29.260]  [SPEAKER_09]: And with a 1, it certainly did not.
[46:29.380 --> 46:30.560]  [SPEAKER_09]: Perhaps with a 0, it would.
[46:30.860 --> 46:31.180]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[46:31.320 --> 46:33.340]  [SPEAKER_09]: Why does Alliance need a 0?
[46:34.120 --> 46:36.800]  [SPEAKER_09]: And the other number I just mentioned uses a 1?
[46:37.500 --> 46:39.920]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's got something to do with routing the carrier.
[46:39.920 --> 46:45.020]  [SPEAKER_01]: Because when you dial 0 plus a long distance number, it always goes to the long distance carrier.
[46:45.620 --> 46:49.640]  [SPEAKER_01]: So by dialing 0 in front of the 700, it goes to AT&T.
[46:49.780 --> 46:55.280]  [SPEAKER_01]: And if it sees that there's any other carrier there, like MCI or Sprint, it won't process the call.
[46:55.280 --> 46:58.860]  [SPEAKER_01]: So AT&T is the only carrier you can get through to that 700 number on.
[47:01.040 --> 47:02.060]  [SPEAKER_01]: 0 has to do with it.
[47:02.700 --> 47:05.420]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's one of the reasons I believe is the case.
[47:05.780 --> 47:06.180]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[47:06.180 --> 47:09.700]  [SPEAKER_01]: And these new numbers will be 0700 numbers too, not 1700 numbers.
[47:09.840 --> 47:10.460]  [SPEAKER_09]: I see.
[47:10.840 --> 47:14.380]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's interesting because when I was a teenager, I messed around with phones a bit.
[47:14.600 --> 47:18.900]  [SPEAKER_09]: And I remember all the interesting stuff that you could do with just phone numbers.
[47:19.060 --> 47:20.860]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's amazing how dead things are now.
[47:21.120 --> 47:21.420]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh-huh.
[47:21.540 --> 47:23.180]  [SPEAKER_01]: What do you mean the interesting things you could do with phone numbers?
[47:23.180 --> 47:33.640]  [SPEAKER_09]: For example, in the days when only AT&T basically gave 800 numbers, there was a number, a fortunate number you could append to the exchange of the 800 number.
[47:33.800 --> 47:34.240]  [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[47:34.340 --> 47:36.040]  [SPEAKER_09]: That would tell you what city it was from.
[47:36.260 --> 47:37.260]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I remember that too.
[47:37.400 --> 47:38.220]  [SPEAKER_01]: I do remember that.
[47:38.580 --> 47:46.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, these days I think you can dial an 800 exchange followed by, uh, I think four zeros, maybe four nines, and you'll get the company that it belongs to.
[47:46.720 --> 47:52.480]  [SPEAKER_01]: But that's going to change too because soon all, all 800 exchanges will be integrated so they can be many different companies.
[47:52.480 --> 47:53.040]  [SPEAKER_09]: Right.
[47:53.240 --> 47:53.820]  [SPEAKER_09]: That makes sense.
[47:54.180 --> 47:57.160]  [SPEAKER_09]: I mean, it used to be the old deal was 0059, as I recall.
[47:58.420 --> 48:00.160]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that does, that does ring a bell.
[48:00.280 --> 48:00.640]  [SPEAKER_09]: Old days.
[48:00.840 --> 48:05.720]  [SPEAKER_09]: They were all little things, but that one, and then you also had other kinds of specialty numbers to give you other kinds of odd things.
[48:05.820 --> 48:09.700]  [SPEAKER_09]: It used to be, you could find out a hell of a lot with just the telephone at one time.
[48:10.140 --> 48:10.840]  [SPEAKER_01]: You still can.
[48:11.180 --> 48:12.200]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, but a lot less.
[48:12.280 --> 48:13.140]  [SPEAKER_09]: At least I'm out of date.
[48:13.300 --> 48:17.120]  [SPEAKER_09]: I'm like, you figure, I'm like, what, 10 or 15, 10 to 12 years out of date.
[48:17.280 --> 48:18.060]  [SPEAKER_09]: That's what it is.
[48:18.300 --> 48:19.940]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, what, you just wake up or something?
[48:20.140 --> 48:20.660]  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean...
[48:20.660 --> 48:21.940]  [SPEAKER_09]: No, I sort of got out of it.
[48:22.140 --> 48:22.320]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[48:22.700 --> 48:26.420]  [SPEAKER_09]: That kind of stuff tends to be interesting when you're a teenager and then you sort of get, you know, you're interested.
[48:26.660 --> 48:33.080]  [SPEAKER_09]: But let's be honest, you have more to lose by messing around and you have money so you don't care about making phone calls so much, you know.
[48:33.260 --> 48:37.300]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's kind of sad because there's always something going on out there and you got to keep up with it.
[48:37.540 --> 48:39.440]  [SPEAKER_01]: But there's no, you know, it's not too late.
[48:39.560 --> 48:41.400]  [SPEAKER_01]: You can just hop right back into it and learn everything.
[48:41.400 --> 48:42.400]  [SPEAKER_09]: This is true.
[48:42.740 --> 48:47.460]  [SPEAKER_09]: Although, I must admit, I never felt comfortable at 20 summer meetings.
[48:47.600 --> 48:50.840]  [SPEAKER_09]: I always felt they were being surveilled rather too heavily for my taste.
[48:51.060 --> 48:54.040]  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, they are being surveyed or whatever all the time, but...
[48:54.040 --> 48:54.500]  [SPEAKER_01]: Rather heavily.
[48:54.620 --> 48:59.800]  [SPEAKER_09]: Not to mention the fact that, of course, some of the people who go to them don't necessarily seem to be the kind of people I'd want to be friends with.
[48:59.980 --> 49:02.120]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, of course, when you have a group of 50 people, that's...
[49:02.120 --> 49:03.020]  [SPEAKER_01]: Gonna get a few, right.
[49:03.020 --> 49:03.480]  [SPEAKER_01]: ...that's gonna happen.
[49:03.640 --> 49:05.740]  [SPEAKER_01]: But let me tell you something about people that are watching you.
[49:05.780 --> 49:07.000]  [SPEAKER_01]: You know what they hate more than anything?
[49:07.160 --> 49:09.180]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's when you watch them and you take their pictures.
[49:09.180 --> 49:10.420]  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, they hate that.
[49:10.620 --> 49:12.300]  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I've done some human rights work.
[49:12.440 --> 49:13.160]  [SPEAKER_01]: I know all about it.
[49:13.240 --> 49:13.500]  [SPEAKER_01]: You're right.
[49:13.500 --> 49:17.860]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's very easy to find the people that are watching you by simply taking a picture of everybody and seeing who objects.
[49:18.740 --> 49:19.040]  Right.
[49:19.500 --> 49:21.220]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's usually, in most cases...
[49:21.220 --> 49:27.320]  [SPEAKER_01]: Of course, you might get some paranoid people like us, but in most cases, it's the people that are watching you that are trying to stay hidden and don't want their picture taken.
[49:27.540 --> 49:31.640]  [SPEAKER_09]: By the way, is that kind of surveillance going on in every city or just New York meetings?
[49:32.140 --> 49:33.040]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, I'll tell ya.
[49:33.540 --> 49:33.960]  [SPEAKER_01]: D.C.
[49:34.020 --> 49:36.520]  [SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot of surveillance going on, but I guess that has to be expected.
[49:37.160 --> 49:38.400]  [SPEAKER_09]: I understand they're meeting there, too.
[49:38.400 --> 49:41.040]  [SPEAKER_01]: There are some spooks that show up at the San Francisco meetings.
[49:41.360 --> 49:48.620]  [SPEAKER_09]: I was kind of curious, because I know it was in an old publication of the magazine that they have meetings out there, and I would bet they'd have less surveillance there than here.
[49:49.460 --> 49:49.860]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well...
[49:49.860 --> 49:50.320]  [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe not.
[49:50.520 --> 49:51.520]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's hard to say.
[49:51.660 --> 49:52.900]  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, surveillance is a tricky thing.
[49:52.920 --> 49:56.000]  [SPEAKER_01]: You never know who's really watching and how good they are.
[49:56.200 --> 49:56.840]  [SPEAKER_09]: This is true.
[49:56.960 --> 50:00.740]  [SPEAKER_09]: Shifting topic to things legal but maybe questionable, you know, circumstances.
[50:01.320 --> 50:07.020]  [SPEAKER_09]: Any advice on where to get good info on VanEck systems, or VanEck plans?
[50:07.580 --> 50:09.080]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, good question.
[50:09.580 --> 50:11.900]  [SPEAKER_09]: I know two places that advertise plans.
[50:12.160 --> 50:12.700]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh-huh.
[50:13.040 --> 50:17.660]  [SPEAKER_09]: They're in the magazines, but I'm wondering if there are any other sources besides the obvious ones that are always in the magazines.
[50:19.760 --> 50:21.900]  [SPEAKER_01]: I couldn't direct you at the moment.
[50:22.120 --> 50:22.920]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'd have to ask around.
[50:23.140 --> 50:24.840]  [SPEAKER_09]: At least you know what I'm talking about.
[50:25.120 --> 50:26.960]  [SPEAKER_09]: Which, a hell of a lot if they say, Van what?
[50:29.000 --> 50:30.800]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, do you want to explain it for our listeners?
[50:31.220 --> 50:31.660]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.
[50:31.900 --> 50:41.760]  [SPEAKER_09]: Basically, VanEck technology would be a method of monitoring the signals from a computer, usually from the monitor, from a distance away from the machine.
[50:41.960 --> 50:45.420]  [SPEAKER_01]: Basically turning on a TV set and seeing what's being typed on the screen.
[50:45.420 --> 50:48.240]  [SPEAKER_09]: Let's say, down the street, so to speak, or what have you.
[50:48.780 --> 50:50.500]  [SPEAKER_09]: Can be useful with different purposes.
[50:50.700 --> 50:52.740]  [SPEAKER_09]: Of course, some of the purposes probably aren't legal.
[50:52.960 --> 50:56.400]  [SPEAKER_09]: So, you know, obviously, if you want to keep it legal, seek legal counsel.
[50:56.980 --> 50:57.680]  [SPEAKER_01]: Really, no.
[50:57.800 --> 50:59.240]  [SPEAKER_09]: But, you know how it goes.
[50:59.380 --> 51:00.900]  [SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't go for very long, either.
[51:01.000 --> 51:02.400]  [SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't go for very long distance.
[51:02.440 --> 51:05.040]  [SPEAKER_01]: I think 1.5 miles is the longest it can possibly go.
[51:05.320 --> 51:06.420]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, of course, a lot of the problems.
[51:06.640 --> 51:06.940]  [SPEAKER_09]: People forget.
[51:07.120 --> 51:08.960]  [SPEAKER_09]: People look into this and they figure, oh, great.
[51:09.200 --> 51:10.900]  [SPEAKER_09]: I can look into an office building or something.
[51:11.060 --> 51:14.980]  [SPEAKER_09]: They forget that it's like 50 people with computers in the 20-foot radius.
[51:14.980 --> 51:15.600]  [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[51:15.760 --> 51:16.880]  [SPEAKER_01]: That makes it kind of difficult.
[51:17.040 --> 51:17.340]  [SPEAKER_09]: Not difficult.
[51:17.480 --> 51:22.860]  [SPEAKER_09]: The only thing that might help you is if one guy, maybe the big guy, has a much higher resolution monitor than the rest.
[51:22.980 --> 51:25.780]  [SPEAKER_09]: It will be at a higher frequency and it may separate it from all the others.
[51:26.200 --> 51:26.440]  [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe.
[51:26.680 --> 51:27.680]  [SPEAKER_09]: That's the only way.
[51:28.080 --> 51:34.460]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's not exactly as practical as all that, but I'm trying to look into setting up something for it just for experimental purposes.
[51:34.660 --> 51:38.820]  [SPEAKER_09]: Although, be aware, very limited can be done with a normal television set with no modifications.
[51:39.260 --> 51:39.700]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh-huh.
[51:40.020 --> 51:43.820]  [SPEAKER_09]: What you do is you put extensions on the controls in the back that are usually recessed.
[51:45.100 --> 51:45.660]  [SPEAKER_09]: And a lot of the...
[51:45.660 --> 51:46.540]  [SPEAKER_09]: These are the old...
[51:46.540 --> 51:49.240]  [SPEAKER_09]: The cheap 12-inch black and white portables are great for that.
[51:49.340 --> 51:50.580]  [SPEAKER_09]: Or even the smaller ones sometimes.
[51:50.940 --> 51:54.560]  [SPEAKER_09]: What you can usually do is you play around with all the sync controls and so on.
[51:54.820 --> 51:55.020]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[51:55.220 --> 51:58.440]  [SPEAKER_01]: There are times you can get an image to synchronize just from a plain television set.
[51:58.560 --> 51:58.760]  [SPEAKER_01]: Really?
[51:58.860 --> 51:59.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: Without any modifications?
[51:59.800 --> 52:00.920]  [SPEAKER_01]: Not any mods at all, basically.
[52:01.060 --> 52:03.620]  [SPEAKER_09]: You just gotta extend the little controls that you usually got just for the screwdriver.
[52:03.840 --> 52:06.060]  [SPEAKER_09]: You put little pieces of tubing on them so you can turn them easily.
[52:06.060 --> 52:07.980]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, it sounds like you've spent a lot of time on this.
[52:08.100 --> 52:09.480]  [SPEAKER_09]: No, I haven't, but I know about it.
[52:09.580 --> 52:09.840]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh-huh.
[52:09.980 --> 52:10.480]  [SPEAKER_01]: I know what...
[52:10.480 --> 52:13.540]  [SPEAKER_09]: If you handed me a set, I could show you how to do it to that level, at least.
[52:13.700 --> 52:15.380]  [SPEAKER_09]: But that's as far as I've gone so far.
[52:16.160 --> 52:19.960]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, it's kind of, you know, a clumsy technology, but it's something that's interesting anyway.
[52:20.080 --> 52:20.480]  [SPEAKER_01]: It is.
[52:20.620 --> 52:21.980]  [SPEAKER_09]: And although it's getting to be...
[52:21.980 --> 52:24.460]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's gonna be less and less valuable, though, in time.
[52:24.700 --> 52:25.900]  [SPEAKER_01]: Right, with laptops and all.
[52:26.020 --> 52:35.670]  [SPEAKER_09]: Not just that monitor that way, but also, everybody is so scared of monitor radiation now that all these new monitors are ultra-shielded.
[52:36.170 --> 52:36.490]  [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[52:36.490 --> 52:37.970]  [SPEAKER_09]: You're not gonna get much out of them.
[52:38.230 --> 52:41.410]  [SPEAKER_09]: I mean, those monitors are almost as good as the Tempest-centered stuff.
[52:41.610 --> 52:42.470]  Uh-huh.
[52:42.550 --> 52:45.030]  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, with the term Tempest and what it means, I would guess you are.
[52:45.330 --> 52:48.850]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, yeah, I think there will always be a way of monitoring somehow, though.
[52:48.990 --> 52:51.010]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure they'll always build something in.
[52:51.010 --> 52:51.630]  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I kind of like...
[52:51.630 --> 52:57.720]  [SPEAKER_09]: As far as the cellular call business goes, handheld scanner for years, that could pick up 800s.
[52:58.360 --> 52:58.600]  [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[52:58.960 --> 52:59.920]  [SPEAKER_01]: To be honest with you...
[52:59.920 --> 53:01.820]  [SPEAKER_01]: 800s meaning the frequency for cellular calls.
[53:01.880 --> 53:04.220]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, the 800 megahertz frequencies for cellular calls.
[53:04.340 --> 53:06.260]  [SPEAKER_09]: It will cover, you know, 800 to 999.
[53:06.700 --> 53:07.000]  [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[53:07.000 --> 53:11.360]  [SPEAKER_09]: And the only bad thing is that it scans in 25kc increment with a drop switch.
[53:11.540 --> 53:14.140]  [SPEAKER_09]: So if you scan in a group, you're gonna miss some in the middle.
[53:14.280 --> 53:14.860]  [SPEAKER_09]: But big deal.
[53:15.620 --> 53:18.980]  [SPEAKER_09]: At the time it was a good value and there weren't too many units out there that could do it.
[53:19.640 --> 53:19.920]  [SPEAKER_09]: Right.
[53:19.920 --> 53:21.860]  [SPEAKER_09]: So, I've had this thing for years.
[53:21.980 --> 53:22.700]  [SPEAKER_09]: And you know what?
[53:22.960 --> 53:27.460]  [SPEAKER_09]: To be honest with you, I don't find the cellular calls worth listening to.
[53:27.820 --> 53:29.020]  [SPEAKER_01]: They are kind of...
[53:29.020 --> 53:31.520]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, anybody's personal lives are kind of boring.
[53:31.700 --> 53:32.680]  [SPEAKER_09]: I mean, it's kind of boring.
[53:32.900 --> 53:33.500]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yes, it's true.
[53:33.580 --> 53:37.160]  [SPEAKER_09]: I've had, like, people around that I've done it just to prove, oh, yeah, look at this.
[53:37.160 --> 53:38.740]  [SPEAKER_09]: I can get phone-called on this thing.
[53:38.740 --> 53:44.180]  [SPEAKER_09]: And I've hit some frequencies and up a search from, you know, a proper range and all.
[53:44.880 --> 53:46.680]  [SPEAKER_09]: And one of them came up one time.
[53:46.680 --> 53:50.040]  [SPEAKER_09]: It was a lawyer talking to a client and it was kind of interesting.
[53:50.320 --> 53:50.620]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh-huh.
[53:50.780 --> 53:51.700]  [SPEAKER_09]: And these things happen.
[53:51.920 --> 53:53.600]  [SPEAKER_09]: But to be honest, I never bother with it.
[53:53.640 --> 53:59.640]  [SPEAKER_09]: That scanner gets used for other perfectly legitimate purposes because I really never found the call that exciting.
[53:59.640 --> 54:02.960]  [SPEAKER_01]: And by the way, I should point out to people that it's not illegal to own one of those.
[54:03.120 --> 54:04.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's not illegal to buy one of those.
[54:04.760 --> 54:07.200]  [SPEAKER_09]: Is it illegal to modify your scanner to cover those frequencies?
[54:07.320 --> 54:08.180]  [SPEAKER_09]: There are people who think it is.
[54:08.280 --> 54:08.840]  [SPEAKER_01]: No, it's not illegal.
[54:08.940 --> 54:11.280]  [SPEAKER_01]: The only thing that's illegal and it's ridiculous is to listen.
[54:11.480 --> 54:13.220]  [SPEAKER_01]: And it's really ridiculous to even think of that.
[54:13.220 --> 54:24.950]  [SPEAKER_09]: And what goes further, in some cases, it's not even because in some cases, the modifications to open that up also opens frequencies right next to it which are used for other services.
[54:25.350 --> 54:25.670]  [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[54:25.850 --> 54:28.270]  [SPEAKER_01]: The radio world is a crazy one.
[54:28.270 --> 54:31.150]  [SPEAKER_01]: Listen, sir, we want to get on to another call, but thanks for all the input.
[54:31.710 --> 54:32.390]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, definitely.
[54:32.430 --> 54:34.190]  [SPEAKER_09]: I would guess that would be it.
[54:34.270 --> 54:35.030]  [SPEAKER_09]: Hi, have a good evening.
[54:35.210 --> 54:35.710]  [SPEAKER_01]: All right, you too.
[54:37.150 --> 54:38.430]  [SPEAKER_01]: 212-279-3400.
[54:38.530 --> 54:39.550]  [SPEAKER_01]: Let's see how many we can get through.
[54:39.930 --> 54:40.530]  [SPEAKER_01]: Good evening.
[54:42.330 --> 54:42.690]  [SPEAKER_11]: Hi.
[54:42.930 --> 54:47.370]  [SPEAKER_11]: This is not necessarily about telephones, but what's happening to WBAI?
[54:47.570 --> 54:48.670]  [SPEAKER_01]: What's happening to WBAI?
[54:48.750 --> 55:00.790]  [SPEAKER_11]: There's an article in today's Newsday concerning the purchase of WNYE because it says somebody is entitled to use 99.5 FM.
[55:01.150 --> 55:10.390]  [SPEAKER_11]: Under federal regulations, due to take effect August 1st, a current FM licensee would be allowed to add 99.5 FM.
[55:10.910 --> 55:16.430]  [SPEAKER_11]: And as a consequence, WBAI is eyeing WNYE, which is for sale.
[55:16.790 --> 55:18.650]  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, this is the first I've heard about this.
[55:18.670 --> 55:20.730]  [SPEAKER_01]: It shows you how in tune with the station I am.
[55:20.730 --> 55:24.270]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's in the current... it's in today's Newsday page.
[55:24.990 --> 55:26.770]  [SPEAKER_01]: Undoubtedly a Paul Culford article, right?
[55:26.910 --> 55:27.650]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's 57.
[55:28.310 --> 55:29.550]  [SPEAKER_11]: Who's... yeah, Paul D.
[55:29.650 --> 55:30.070]  [SPEAKER_11]: Culford.
[55:30.610 --> 55:32.290]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I'll have to check into that.
[55:32.410 --> 55:35.710]  [SPEAKER_01]: Basically, it says that we're thinking of moving to 91.5.
[55:35.790 --> 55:36.130]  [SPEAKER_01]: Is that it?
[55:36.250 --> 55:40.830]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, because somebody is entitled to use, you know, 99.5.
[55:41.510 --> 55:43.970]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I don't know how somebody would be entitled to use our frequency.
[55:43.970 --> 55:50.550]  [SPEAKER_11]: Something was decided, you know, some FCC decision.
[55:52.630 --> 55:54.150]  [SPEAKER_11]: I could read the whole thing.
[55:54.430 --> 56:07.450]  [SPEAKER_11]: A game of musical cheers may ensue because one of the dozen or so parties that have expressed interest in buying NYE is Pacifica Radio, the nonprofit operator of WBAI-FM.
[56:07.570 --> 56:23.470]  [SPEAKER_11]: Because WBAI's present 99.5 FM dial position may be used by a commercial broadcaster, the station's relocation to 91.5 would allow WBAI to sell its present home at a windfall price.
[56:23.470 --> 56:24.530]  [SPEAKER_11]: I don't know what they mean.
[56:24.630 --> 56:26.350]  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, okay, I can explain that to you.
[56:26.450 --> 56:28.730]  [SPEAKER_01]: You see, we're in the middle of the commercial dial.
[56:29.310 --> 56:33.150]  [SPEAKER_01]: The non-commercial dial is from 88 to 92 on the FM.
[56:33.430 --> 56:41.830]  [SPEAKER_01]: So if we were to sell this station, we could sell it to a commercial broadcaster, whereas WNYE cannot do that because they're below 92.
[56:42.330 --> 56:46.310]  [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, we could make a lot of money selling the station to somebody else.
[56:46.470 --> 56:57.550]  [SPEAKER_01]: But in all honesty, and this is only my opinion, I think that would be a bad move because here we are in the middle of a commercial dial where people are wandering around from station to station, and lots of times they stumble upon us.
[56:57.690 --> 57:00.090]  [SPEAKER_11]: Is it something that they can do or must do?
[57:00.710 --> 57:08.390]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, of course, you know, we always are looking for funds here, and I just hope we don't get desperate enough where we make a move like that.
[57:09.010 --> 57:12.350]  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I hate to say it, but it really depends on listeners.
[57:12.370 --> 57:16.110]  [SPEAKER_01]: If listeners support the station enough, I don't think we'd have to do that.
[57:16.210 --> 57:19.730]  [SPEAKER_11]: About raising money, I think it's a horrible prospect.
[57:19.730 --> 57:24.150]  [SPEAKER_01]: Right, we're at 50,000 watts, I believe, now, and I don't think NYE is anything near that.
[57:25.050 --> 57:26.110]  [SPEAKER_11]: I don't know if it's...
[57:26.110 --> 57:30.910]  [SPEAKER_01]: But undoubtedly, you'll be hearing more about this on the air on various other programs.
[57:31.270 --> 57:36.210]  [SPEAKER_11]: I think listeners better start girding their lawns or whatever it takes to get money.
[57:36.690 --> 57:40.770]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well, Marathon begins, I think, in two weeks, and hopefully we'll get a strong response.
[57:41.010 --> 57:44.170]  [SPEAKER_11]: I'm one of the volunteers, so we'll do the best we can.
[57:44.330 --> 57:45.770]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, thanks for bringing that to my attention.
[57:47.230 --> 57:49.550]  [SPEAKER_01]: And let's see if we have time for one more phone call.
[57:49.550 --> 57:50.350]  [SPEAKER_01]: Good evening.
[57:50.970 --> 57:52.510]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, testing, one, two, three, four.
[57:52.730 --> 57:56.030]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I guess it's appropriate that you end the show, so what is it you have to say?
[57:56.250 --> 57:57.350]  [SPEAKER_07]: I'm very concerned.
[57:57.470 --> 58:03.430]  [SPEAKER_07]: You know, you're talking about new invasions to our personal lives, individual lives, and new technologies.
[58:03.650 --> 58:10.370]  [SPEAKER_07]: And if I was the head of the CIA, or government think tank, I would certainly send operatives into WBAI.
[58:11.210 --> 58:21.630]  [SPEAKER_07]: Now, I've protested, I've said I would withhold my funds, not that there's so much, but I like to contribute, because I do talk on the station a lot.
[58:21.810 --> 58:27.070]  [SPEAKER_07]: And I said, the WBAI must be in the radio highlights every day.
[58:27.070 --> 58:30.330]  [SPEAKER_07]: There certainly are wonderful programs on WBAI.
[58:30.430 --> 58:31.110]  [SPEAKER_07]: So what?
[58:31.250 --> 58:42.230]  [SPEAKER_07]: What is the problem with the management of WBAI, that they can't have a senior citizen, if they don't have someone else, go and see the news day, for instance?
[58:42.230 --> 58:45.890]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I don't want to break in, but we are talking about technology, and you're bringing up...
[58:45.890 --> 58:47.730]  [SPEAKER_07]: The radio is modern technology.
[58:47.870 --> 58:51.850]  [SPEAKER_07]: Let me introduce you to one of the most potent forces in our world.
[58:52.030 --> 58:53.170]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, yes, so is the telephone.
[58:53.350 --> 58:56.090]  [SPEAKER_01]: But that doesn't mean that anything you say over the telephone has to do with the subject.
[58:56.190 --> 58:58.550]  [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, this is one to 15 million.
[58:59.110 --> 59:02.970]  [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, Emmanuel, I'm talking George Orwell to you.
[59:03.150 --> 59:04.550]  [SPEAKER_07]: This is a terrible thing.
[59:04.550 --> 59:12.310]  [SPEAKER_07]: I feel that the people in leadership of WBAI are suspect in my mind, and I want something to change.
[59:12.690 --> 59:21.170]  [SPEAKER_07]: They allow Lynn Samuels, who buddy-buddies now with Bob Grant and Rush Limbaugh, rather than saying, I disagree with them.
[59:21.270 --> 59:22.470]  [SPEAKER_07]: This is why I disagree.
[59:22.790 --> 59:23.050]  [SPEAKER_07]: No.
[59:23.210 --> 59:25.250]  [SPEAKER_07]: She's on ABC as well as WBAI.
[59:25.430 --> 59:26.190]  [SPEAKER_07]: I don't know why.
[59:26.190 --> 59:28.210]  [SPEAKER_07]: She has plenty of a voice on ABC.
[59:28.550 --> 59:29.970]  [SPEAKER_07]: So let it be on ABC.
[59:30.990 --> 59:39.550]  [SPEAKER_01]: And while he's fading out, let's just say that we will be back again next week, talking to more Outrage listeners.
[59:39.550 --> 59:41.150]  [SPEAKER_01]: The program is off the hook.
[59:41.330 --> 59:41.690]  [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
[59:42.390 --> 59:43.930]  [SPEAKER_01]: This is Emmanuel Goldstein.
[59:44.730 --> 59:48.970]  [SPEAKER_01]: Again, we'll be back next week and talking about more interesting things.
[59:50.390 --> 59:52.730]  [SPEAKER_01]: Stay tuned for The Personal Computer Show.