Off The Hook - 1992-07-08

[00:02.720 --> 00:09.600]  [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you, Terry, giving you hopefully up-to-the-minute news concerning major events affecting international politics.
[00:09.860 --> 00:14.000]  [SPEAKER_00]: This is Dr. Michio Kaku, professor of physics, and this has been Exploration.
[00:14.240 --> 00:14.600]  [SPEAKER_00]: Good evening.
[00:29.310 --> 00:37.550]  [SPEAKER_02]: In 1975, on the Pine Ridge Reservation in South Dakota, random murders, beatings, and unexplained, often fatal accidents were the norm.
[00:38.030 --> 00:49.030]  [SPEAKER_02]: It was this government-induced environment which led to the shootout on June 26th of that year, where two FBI agents and one Native American were killed, resulting in one of the biggest manhunts in FBI history.
[00:49.450 --> 00:53.070]  [SPEAKER_02]: It led to the arrest and imprisonment of Indian leader Leonard Peltier.
[00:53.670 --> 01:11.530]  [SPEAKER_02]: On Sunday, July 26th, beginning at 7 p.m., WBAI and the New Community Cinema of Huntington, Long Island, will present a special screening of the documentary film dealing with this history, Incident at Oglala, immediately followed by a panel discussion about the FBI's attacks on the American Indian movement.
[01:11.530 --> 01:25.250]  [SPEAKER_02]: Speakers include civil rights attorney William Kuntzler, Michelle Vignola of the Leonard Peltier Defense Committee, Shinnecock attorney Roberta Hunter of the Suffolk Human Rights Commission, and Ingrid Wershinna Watuk of the American Indian Community House.
[01:25.610 --> 01:31.250]  [SPEAKER_02]: The panel will be moderated by WBAI's Gustavo Silva, host of Circle of Red Nations.
[01:31.250 --> 01:42.090]  [SPEAKER_02]: So come to the special screening of Incident at Oglala at the New Community Cinema, 423 Park Avenue in Huntington, Long Island, Sunday, July 26th at 7 p.m.
[01:42.470 --> 01:51.430]  [SPEAKER_02]: For more information, call 212-279-0707 or 516-423-7653.
[02:00.950 --> 02:05.370]  [SPEAKER_01]: And you are listening to Radio Station WBAI, New York.
[02:05.630 --> 02:08.150]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's 9 o'clock, time for Off the Hook.
[02:15.000 --> 02:19.460]  [SPEAKER_04]: The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
[02:20.400 --> 02:24.940]  [SPEAKER_04]: I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a cough.
[02:25.540 --> 02:27.700]  [SPEAKER_04]: It couldn't get much worse.
[02:30.420 --> 02:33.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: Bomb-dilly-bomb for the best, expect the worst.
[02:33.680 --> 02:35.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: I hope that's understood.
[02:35.780 --> 02:36.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: Bomb-dilly-bomb!
[03:12.040 --> 03:13.840]  [SPEAKER_01]: And a very good evening to one and all.
[03:13.900 --> 03:14.840]  [SPEAKER_01]: The program is Off the Hook.
[03:14.840 --> 03:17.880]  [SPEAKER_01]: This is Emmanuel Goldstein, here with you for another hour.
[03:18.580 --> 03:24.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: Up until 10 o'clock, talking about high-tech, low-intelligence, and the combinations thereof.
[03:27.740 --> 03:29.380]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's been an interesting week.
[04:02.080 --> 04:05.140]  [SPEAKER_01]: And you know, it's only going to get weirder.
[04:07.780 --> 04:15.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: Those of you listening last week know that we aired some rather risqué material in the form of cellular phone calls.
[04:16.980 --> 04:26.240]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I just found out that the end of that show was never aired, so what we'll have to do is repeat the whole thing in a couple of weeks and allow people to hear the unedited version.
[04:31.620 --> 04:36.880]  [SPEAKER_01]: A lot of people express dismay at hearing cellular phone calls going out over the airwaves.
[04:36.880 --> 04:40.840]  [SPEAKER_01]: A lot of people express dismay when they learn that their calls are being monitored.
[04:41.860 --> 04:45.940]  [SPEAKER_01]: And really, the question is, who do you express this dismay to?
[04:46.080 --> 04:49.200]  [SPEAKER_01]: Who is the problem, and where do the solutions lie?
[04:49.700 --> 04:54.360]  [SPEAKER_01]: Is the problem the people that listen in, or is the problem the fact that you can listen in?
[04:54.620 --> 05:01.060]  [SPEAKER_01]: Is the problem the fact that there isn't a law to prevent people really from listening in?
[05:01.060 --> 05:11.020]  [SPEAKER_01]: Or is the problem that there is no technological ability to scramble conversations and keep people from doing this, whether it's legal or not?
[05:11.180 --> 05:13.270]  [SPEAKER_01]: Those are the questions that should be debated.
[05:13.460 --> 05:18.410]  [SPEAKER_01]: And, of course, we welcome any kind of feedback, input, that kind of thing.
[05:19.180 --> 05:22.080]  [SPEAKER_01]: We've got several letters on the subject.
[05:22.340 --> 05:24.790]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'd like to read one to you.
[05:25.680 --> 05:28.040]  [SPEAKER_01]: I won't say where it's from, except that that's from New Jersey.
[05:29.020 --> 05:34.420]  [SPEAKER_01]: My compliments to you and your staff to the great show that aired on July 1st on the cellular phone recordings.
[05:34.780 --> 05:40.700]  [SPEAKER_01]: I had recorded part of the program and found it humorous, the phone conversations and your music selection.
[05:40.940 --> 05:49.760]  [SPEAKER_01]: Perhaps a candid camera, a television show that aired once with Alan Funt, would be best to describe what can happen with this so-called modern technology with our phone systems.
[05:50.600 --> 05:56.240]  [SPEAKER_01]: I would be interested in expansion of this show into the Pentagon conversations and perhaps some senators.
[05:58.040 --> 06:01.680]  [SPEAKER_01]: Hey, in their communications, can we tap into their conversations?
[06:02.960 --> 06:05.680]  [SPEAKER_01]: You never know what you'll be airing on your show.
[06:05.780 --> 06:07.560]  [SPEAKER_01]: That makes it very interesting listening.
[06:07.660 --> 06:10.020]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's certainly the case with a lot of programs here at WBAI.
[06:10.180 --> 06:11.980]  [SPEAKER_01]: You never really know what you'll hear next.
[06:13.060 --> 06:19.500]  [SPEAKER_01]: And the reason we did that, the reason we did that was to show people what was possible.
[06:19.820 --> 06:21.480]  [SPEAKER_01]: Nobody's privacy was compromised.
[06:21.480 --> 06:26.320]  [SPEAKER_01]: We were careful not to let any identities go out or anything like that.
[06:26.900 --> 06:35.280]  [SPEAKER_01]: But it was a glaring example of how the most intimate of our conversations could be listened to by anybody.
[06:36.360 --> 06:38.000]  [SPEAKER_01]: Something that should upset you.
[06:39.100 --> 06:42.940]  [SPEAKER_01]: And again, apologies for the airing of that being cut short last week.
[06:43.060 --> 06:45.260]  [SPEAKER_01]: We'll be airing the whole thing at some point over the summer.
[06:45.260 --> 06:52.420]  [SPEAKER_01]: So if you just make a habit of listening in every week to this program, well, then eventually you'll hear the whole thing.
[06:53.320 --> 06:57.160]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, we have been up to some interesting things.
[06:57.600 --> 07:02.540]  [SPEAKER_01]: Actually, last week, for those of you that can read into radio waves, I wasn't really here.
[07:02.540 --> 07:04.760]  [SPEAKER_01]: You heard my voice, but I was actually on tape.
[07:04.760 --> 07:13.800]  [SPEAKER_01]: And the reason for that was that I was attending a hacker convention in another part of the country, a city I'd never been to before, St. Louis, Missouri.
[07:14.460 --> 07:16.320]  [SPEAKER_01]: And what an interesting place that turned out to be.
[07:16.360 --> 07:17.200]  [SPEAKER_01]: But I'll get to that in a minute.
[07:18.980 --> 07:23.880]  [SPEAKER_01]: The most important thing was the actual get-together of hackers from all over the country.
[07:24.000 --> 07:25.300]  [SPEAKER_01]: In fact, all over the globe, really.
[07:25.460 --> 07:30.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well over a hundred of them all gathered together to trade stories, trade information.
[07:30.760 --> 07:31.380]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, that's right.
[07:31.540 --> 07:33.560]  [SPEAKER_01]: Information was passed back and forth.
[07:33.560 --> 07:38.760]  [SPEAKER_01]: And all kinds of other stories, techniques, escapades.
[07:39.400 --> 07:43.280]  [SPEAKER_01]: And there were quite a few adventures that occurred.
[07:43.900 --> 07:52.920]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's always a healthy thing to get together with people that share your interests, that find your interests to be acceptable.
[07:52.920 --> 08:01.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: We don't have to go over this debate over and over again about what is moral and what is not moral and whether hacking is like stealing.
[08:01.620 --> 08:04.240]  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I don't mind having that debate.
[08:04.440 --> 08:05.120]  [SPEAKER_01]: I really don't.
[08:05.200 --> 08:06.140]  [SPEAKER_01]: I welcome the debate.
[08:06.280 --> 08:09.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: But you have to get past that at some time.
[08:09.620 --> 08:18.780]  [SPEAKER_01]: You have to start actually talking about hacking, about what is being found out, about what is out there, and how it all works, how it all fits together.
[08:18.780 --> 08:22.200]  [SPEAKER_01]: That was the common denominator at this convention, known as SummerCon.
[08:22.620 --> 08:26.180]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's something that's actually been going on for quite some time in the Midwest.
[08:26.180 --> 08:30.280]  [SPEAKER_01]: And it's heartening to see lots of people that still have the spirit.
[08:30.560 --> 08:31.700]  [SPEAKER_01]: They've been through hell.
[08:31.960 --> 08:34.560]  [SPEAKER_01]: A lot of them have been indicted, put in jail even.
[08:34.880 --> 08:38.670]  [SPEAKER_01]: I met quite a few people that have actually served time for various things.
[08:38.930 --> 08:43.160]  [SPEAKER_01]: And some of them have done things that I really don't think are too advisable.
[08:43.430 --> 08:47.360]  [SPEAKER_01]: However, I think the penalties were perhaps a bit much.
[08:47.660 --> 08:52.300]  [SPEAKER_01]: Sending somebody to jail for making a free phone call.
[08:52.400 --> 08:52.900]  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
[08:53.000 --> 08:55.280]  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if that's quite the right way to deal with it.
[08:56.020 --> 08:58.280]  [SPEAKER_01]: But that's another program right there.
[08:58.950 --> 09:12.670]  [SPEAKER_01]: A lot of diversity, a lot of different lifestyles, but that same common denominator of curiosity and the spirit of adventure, and somehow a sense of humor that is never lost, despite all the crap that happens.
[09:12.950 --> 09:17.660]  [SPEAKER_01]: And there's a whole new saga of that that has just been opened up today, which we'll get to a little later in the program.
[09:17.690 --> 09:28.280]  [SPEAKER_01]: No doubt those of you watching television, watching the TV news, listening to the radio and reading tabloids will find out about this if you have not already.
[09:28.540 --> 09:32.260]  [SPEAKER_01]: Hopefully tonight we can set the record straight for whatever it's worth.
[09:33.140 --> 09:36.540]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, these conventions will occur again.
[09:36.670 --> 09:38.020]  [SPEAKER_01]: Hopefully there'll be some in New York.
[09:38.240 --> 09:51.920]  [SPEAKER_01]: In any event, we have monthly hacker meetings now in four cities, which certainly is proof positive of the hacker spirit that will not die despite attempts of authority figures.
[09:52.160 --> 09:53.980]  [SPEAKER_01]: And boy, let me tell you something.
[09:54.780 --> 10:00.790]  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't go out looking for trouble with authority, but for some reason, for some reason, it always seems to follow me.
[10:00.930 --> 10:02.540]  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know why this is.
[10:02.740 --> 10:08.640]  [SPEAKER_01]: But wherever I go, there's something about authority figures that troubles me.
[10:08.760 --> 10:15.320]  [SPEAKER_01]: And apparently there's something about me that troubles authority figures because we just keep coming into conflict.
[10:15.320 --> 10:24.670]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, the first instance of this occurred in St. Louis where a lot of us were getting together and trading stories, things like that.
[10:24.780 --> 10:26.430]  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, well, we even went trashing, you know.
[10:26.720 --> 10:33.100]  [SPEAKER_01]: Trashing is jumping into dumpsters and finding bits of information from various large companies that have thrown out the information.
[10:33.400 --> 10:34.120]  [SPEAKER_01]: They don't need it anymore.
[10:34.120 --> 10:36.460]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, we would like to learn from that.
[10:36.550 --> 10:38.480]  [SPEAKER_01]: And we learn quite a bit from that.
[10:38.620 --> 10:40.670]  [SPEAKER_01]: And there's nothing wrong with learning, right?
[10:40.860 --> 10:41.920]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's what I've been taught.
[10:42.920 --> 10:54.900]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, there was quite a bit of that going on except for the first time in my life after going trashing, I realized that there were so many hackers in the neighborhood that we had competition and that we had to hit certain buildings before other hackers would hit certain buildings.
[10:55.000 --> 10:59.560]  [SPEAKER_01]: And the whole thing became kind of a game where you had to get all the good information before other people did.
[10:59.720 --> 11:03.980]  [SPEAKER_01]: And it was a real jovial experience, a lot of camaraderie, a lot of sharing.
[11:04.120 --> 11:05.740]  [SPEAKER_01]: Nobody really kept anything to themselves.
[11:07.040 --> 11:10.780]  [SPEAKER_01]: And made quite a bit of interesting friends out there, I'd say.
[11:11.420 --> 11:16.900]  [SPEAKER_01]: It'd be nice to see that kind of thing happen more often on a global scale, but I'm just going to have to try a little harder to do that.
[11:17.760 --> 11:23.520]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, our first problem with authority figures took place in a mall in St. Louis.
[11:23.680 --> 11:26.900]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, you know, we don't go out looking for trouble, do we?
[11:27.080 --> 11:27.740]  [SPEAKER_01]: No, of course not.
[11:27.820 --> 11:30.060]  [SPEAKER_01]: We, you know, do our own thing.
[11:30.220 --> 11:30.800]  [SPEAKER_01]: We hang out.
[11:30.900 --> 11:31.300]  [SPEAKER_01]: We talk.
[11:31.540 --> 11:34.980]  [SPEAKER_01]: We go to food courts in shopping malls.
[11:35.240 --> 11:36.500]  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, people do that.
[11:37.100 --> 11:37.900]  [SPEAKER_01]: And it's...
[11:37.900 --> 11:41.560]  [SPEAKER_01]: There's nothing really bad about that, is there?
[11:42.300 --> 11:49.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: But what I'm learning in this country, what I'm learning in our society, is that looks mean an awful lot.
[11:49.360 --> 12:04.400]  [SPEAKER_01]: And if you look the wrong way, and if you happen to be the wrong color, or the wrong ethnic group, or the wrong religion, or the wrong age, or whatever, if you carry something like a skateboard, or if you wear your hair spiked, or if you wear a tie-dye t-shirt,
[12:04.640 --> 12:11.020]  [SPEAKER_01]: you're going to get all kinds of garbage from all kinds of people that just don't understand and don't care to understand.
[12:11.700 --> 12:19.920]  [SPEAKER_01]: In this particular case, a bunch of us were sitting around, not making any noise, not doing anything bad, just sitting around.
[12:20.360 --> 12:31.000]  [SPEAKER_01]: And a security guard decided that he didn't like the way we looked and came up to one of us and said, you're going to have to turn your hat around or you're going to have to leave.
[12:31.740 --> 12:34.600]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, this was the most amazing thing I had ever heard.
[12:34.760 --> 12:39.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: This security guard actually ordering somebody to not wear their hat backwards.
[12:40.680 --> 12:49.800]  [SPEAKER_01]: And the way that I deal with situations like that, and I hope more people out there deal with situations in the same way, you don't just challenge authority.
[12:49.800 --> 12:58.260]  [SPEAKER_01]: You do whatever you can to completely upset authority and put it on its ear because there are certain things that you do not have to take.
[12:58.890 --> 13:02.920]  [SPEAKER_01]: And being told how to look is one of those things.
[13:03.140 --> 13:08.720]  [SPEAKER_01]: Being told that you look wrong and must change your appearance is something that I find completely offensive.
[13:08.920 --> 13:13.740]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, we got a bunch of our hackers together and decided to take a trip to Sears.
[13:14.560 --> 13:16.520]  [SPEAKER_01]: And Sears was having a sale on hats.
[13:17.040 --> 13:18.740]  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, those baseball cap type of things.
[13:18.820 --> 13:19.780]  [SPEAKER_01]: And we thought we'd be friendly.
[13:19.920 --> 13:23.020]  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, we thought we wouldn't try and cause any trouble with the natives.
[13:23.060 --> 13:24.800]  [SPEAKER_01]: We bought St. Louis Cardinals hats.
[13:25.040 --> 13:25.660]  [SPEAKER_01]: A lot of them.
[13:25.660 --> 13:27.920]  [SPEAKER_01]: And we all wore our hats backwards.
[13:28.880 --> 13:31.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, it feels better sometimes to wear your hat backwards.
[13:31.500 --> 13:33.660]  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if people out there are as daring as I am.
[13:33.980 --> 13:38.260]  [SPEAKER_01]: But, yeah, you wear your hat backwards and a lot more air gets into your forehead.
[13:39.000 --> 13:42.820]  [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, the cap doesn't really hurt in the back unless you really stick your head up high.
[13:43.620 --> 13:45.840]  [SPEAKER_01]: We had a high old time walking around in the mall.
[13:45.920 --> 13:53.980]  [SPEAKER_01]: We got about two minutes away from Sears before we found ourselves surrounded by security guards who said that we were violating a rule of the mall.
[13:53.980 --> 13:59.540]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I asked, what rule is there that dictates how you must wear your hat?
[14:00.120 --> 14:01.900]  [SPEAKER_01]: And they found a sign.
[14:02.080 --> 14:06.420]  [SPEAKER_01]: They actually pointed to this sign and said that there was a rule there.
[14:06.500 --> 14:12.460]  [SPEAKER_01]: The rule said clothing must be worn in the way in which it was intended.
[14:13.200 --> 14:16.000]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, I don't know where they came up with a rule like this.
[14:16.160 --> 14:20.240]  [SPEAKER_01]: But apparently what that means is you cannot wear things inside out.
[14:20.240 --> 14:22.020]  [SPEAKER_01]: You cannot wear hats backwards.
[14:22.700 --> 14:24.640]  [SPEAKER_01]: You cannot wear your shoes on the wrong feet.
[14:24.800 --> 14:27.700]  [SPEAKER_01]: All kinds of possible interpretations of this law.
[14:28.200 --> 14:30.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: And that's when the big debate started.
[14:30.840 --> 14:37.160]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I believe it was the supervisor of the security force that I got into the debate with.
[14:37.300 --> 14:44.520]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I said, what in God's name is the purpose of a law that tells you you cannot wear your hat backwards?
[14:44.520 --> 14:52.700]  [SPEAKER_01]: Where I come from, which is a civilized city of New York, lots of people wear their hats backwards, sideways, upside down, whatever they want to do.
[14:52.700 --> 14:54.380]  [SPEAKER_01]: It is not a big deal.
[14:55.280 --> 15:01.880]  [SPEAKER_01]: And a security guard looked at me and said, if you wear your hat backwards, you're going to get shot by gang members.
[15:02.820 --> 15:04.820]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I said, say what?
[15:05.080 --> 15:09.700]  [SPEAKER_01]: If I wear my hat backwards, I'm going to get shot just for wearing my hat backwards.
[15:10.320 --> 15:11.860]  [SPEAKER_01]: They said, that's the way it works.
[15:11.880 --> 15:15.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: If you wear your hat backwards, you see, you're indicating that you're part of a gang.
[15:15.620 --> 15:19.320]  [SPEAKER_01]: And this is the most dangerous mall in the world.
[15:19.540 --> 15:22.560]  [SPEAKER_01]: He wasn't doing much for the shoppers by confessing all this to us.
[15:22.640 --> 15:25.440]  [SPEAKER_01]: But he said, you'll be shot in no time if you continue to walk around the mall.
[15:25.520 --> 15:27.060]  [SPEAKER_01]: And we're doing this for your own protection.
[15:27.300 --> 15:32.900]  [SPEAKER_01]: The same rule that any infringement of liberty always falls back upon.
[15:33.080 --> 15:35.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's for your own good, for your own protection.
[15:36.380 --> 15:39.740]  [SPEAKER_01]: Conform, or else you'll be shot by some non-conformist.
[15:40.580 --> 15:44.420]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I said, look, if... hypothetical situation here.
[15:44.420 --> 15:47.320]  [SPEAKER_01]: Just bear with me for a second and follow my logic.
[15:47.880 --> 16:01.900]  [SPEAKER_01]: If a lot of black people were being shot by a lot of white people, would your reaction then be to ban all of the black people from entering the mall and say that they were going to be shot if they walked into this mall?
[16:02.700 --> 16:05.020]  [SPEAKER_01]: And he didn't choose to follow that logic.
[16:05.020 --> 16:12.100]  [SPEAKER_01]: He just repeated in that security guard way of his that you have to turn your hat around or leave the mall.
[16:13.140 --> 16:23.300]  [SPEAKER_01]: So then my next point was, well, here we are all wearing our hats backwards and you say that we're about to be shot by all these gang members.
[16:23.440 --> 16:30.480]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, don't you think, the security force that you are, that maybe you should be looking for the people with guns, not the people with hats?
[16:31.460 --> 16:35.160]  [SPEAKER_01]: And he said, well, you know, we can't always find them.
[16:35.160 --> 16:38.320]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, we go for the obvious solutions.
[16:39.040 --> 16:51.420]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's just like everything else, where they take away Touch-Tone phones and replace them with rotary phones because that way you won't have drug dealers beeping people with Touch-Tones.
[16:51.820 --> 16:55.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, sure, you inconvenience everyone else, but it's for your own good.
[16:56.400 --> 16:57.000]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[16:57.220 --> 17:09.100]  [SPEAKER_01]: And, of course, if you outlaw beepers for anybody under 18, then you won't have any 18-year-old or younger drug dealers because they won't be allowed to have beepers.
[17:09.680 --> 17:13.120]  [SPEAKER_01]: Never mind that drug dealing is just slightly illegal in itself.
[17:15.380 --> 17:18.940]  [SPEAKER_01]: Making beepers illegal will really put the nail in the coffin.
[17:20.470 --> 17:34.550]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's hard to counter logic like that, but the group of us, I won't say gang because obviously it has negative connotations, but the group of us refused to turn our hats around.
[17:35.200 --> 17:37.360]  [SPEAKER_01]: It just was not the right thing to do.
[17:38.240 --> 17:41.920]  [SPEAKER_01]: And we decided we didn't want to spend a few days in jail.
[17:43.660 --> 17:46.260]  [SPEAKER_01]: We decided to leave, but we left with our hats on backwards.
[17:46.420 --> 17:51.490]  [SPEAKER_01]: And not only did we leave with our hats on backwards, we walked around the entire mall outside.
[17:52.490 --> 17:56.860]  [SPEAKER_01]: Not to prove a point so much as the fact that we were lost, but the point was proven anyway.
[17:57.940 --> 17:59.400]  [SPEAKER_01]: We weren't harassed by anybody.
[17:59.470 --> 18:01.440]  [SPEAKER_01]: We wore our hats the way we wanted to wear them.
[18:01.530 --> 18:10.700]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I hope people out there, no matter how your individuality is contested, challenged, that you stand up to it.
[18:10.920 --> 18:13.300]  [SPEAKER_01]: That you don't let yourself be pushed around.
[18:13.420 --> 18:16.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: And that you let other people know when something like this happens.
[18:16.640 --> 18:19.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I believe the name of this mall is the Northwest Mall.
[18:19.470 --> 18:20.800]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's right by the airport in St. Louis.
[18:20.900 --> 18:23.240]  [SPEAKER_01]: If anyone wants to go out there with their hat backwards, please do so.
[18:24.180 --> 18:26.640]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's necessary to not allow these things to happen.
[18:26.820 --> 18:29.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: They say, of course, that it's private property and they can do whatever they want.
[18:29.740 --> 18:30.740]  [SPEAKER_01]: That might be the case.
[18:30.960 --> 18:33.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not really up on mall law.
[18:34.460 --> 18:37.040]  [SPEAKER_01]: But it's something that people should know about.
[18:37.520 --> 18:39.470]  [SPEAKER_01]: And people should get upset about.
[18:39.760 --> 18:41.140]  [SPEAKER_01]: Seems like a minor thing.
[18:41.470 --> 18:53.730]  [SPEAKER_01]: But when you saw everybody walking around like dutiful sheep, wearing their hats the right way, just plodding along like they're in Dawn of the Dead, it's kind of a sad thing.
[18:54.440 --> 18:55.780]  [SPEAKER_01]: We need to be individuals.
[18:55.780 --> 19:04.260]  [SPEAKER_01]: We need to wear our shirts backwards and spike our hair and talk whatever lingo we want to talk and hang out with the people we want to hang out with.
[19:05.400 --> 19:08.280]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's called America in my eyes.
[19:08.900 --> 19:15.040]  [SPEAKER_01]: And it's been quite an independence day for me because I learned a lot about freedom.
[19:15.420 --> 19:18.560]  [SPEAKER_01]: I learned a lot about liberty, about challenging authority.
[19:20.250 --> 19:21.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: I went to Canada.
[19:23.760 --> 19:25.640]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, Canada is a cool country.
[19:26.200 --> 19:31.900]  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I like to say it's got all the advantages of America and none of the disadvantages.
[19:32.120 --> 19:33.960]  [SPEAKER_01]: And that's sort of true and sort of not true.
[19:35.460 --> 19:41.460]  [SPEAKER_01]: They have liberty, freedom, and they don't really have troops all over the place, which is always nice.
[19:41.470 --> 19:42.490]  [SPEAKER_01]: They don't invade people.
[19:43.260 --> 19:44.470]  [SPEAKER_01]: They have their problems.
[19:44.920 --> 19:46.680]  [SPEAKER_01]: They have language problems.
[19:46.680 --> 19:50.260]  [SPEAKER_01]: They have provinces that want to break away and things like that.
[19:50.380 --> 19:54.260]  [SPEAKER_01]: But for the most part, people there and authority there is a lot more laid back.
[19:56.380 --> 20:13.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, to underline this, when we entered Canada, and this is a couple of hackers entering Canada, you know, no big deal, just curious people exploring a foreign land, we were asked, how come we're coming to Canada?
[20:13.940 --> 20:14.960]  [SPEAKER_01]: Why are we going there?
[20:15.710 --> 20:19.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: just to explore, hang out, be there for a couple of days.
[20:19.860 --> 20:21.520]  [SPEAKER_01]: How much money you bring with you?
[20:22.300 --> 20:23.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: Are you visiting anybody?
[20:24.080 --> 20:25.040]  [SPEAKER_01]: A couple more questions.
[20:25.400 --> 20:25.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[20:25.960 --> 20:26.780]  [SPEAKER_01]: Welcome to Canada.
[20:27.080 --> 20:27.470]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's it.
[20:30.400 --> 20:35.540]  [SPEAKER_01]: A couple of days later, we decide to come back home.
[20:36.660 --> 20:42.100]  [SPEAKER_01]: And you know, friends, it wasn't the first time that I thought that move was a mistake.
[20:44.100 --> 20:46.140]  [SPEAKER_01]: See, I've been harassed at borders before.
[20:46.320 --> 20:50.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: I've been harassed at the United States borders more times than any.
[20:51.270 --> 20:53.400]  [SPEAKER_01]: And it's a troubling thing.
[20:53.640 --> 20:55.840]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you know that they have to take precautions.
[20:55.840 --> 20:59.660]  [SPEAKER_01]: You know that they have to be careful about who they let into the country.
[21:00.720 --> 21:04.680]  [SPEAKER_01]: But I've never seen anything quite like this.
[21:04.960 --> 21:12.250]  [SPEAKER_01]: And what happened to me yesterday, to me and a friend of mine yesterday was, oh, I hate to use a New York Post word, but it was shocking.
[21:12.250 --> 21:18.840]  [SPEAKER_01]: It was a very shocking, dismaying, disturbing incident.
[21:19.250 --> 21:30.600]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, we first had problems when we pulled up to the, I guess they're immigration officers or customs officials or whatever.
[21:30.790 --> 21:33.540]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's kind of like a toll booth type of thing, except you don't give them money.
[21:34.530 --> 21:38.640]  [SPEAKER_01]: You simply answer the same questions that you answered going into Canada.
[21:38.640 --> 21:40.200]  [SPEAKER_01]: How long were you here?
[21:40.580 --> 21:42.380]  [SPEAKER_01]: Did you buy anything expensive?
[21:42.880 --> 21:43.920]  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, that kind of thing.
[21:44.420 --> 21:45.640]  [SPEAKER_01]: And where do you live?
[21:46.180 --> 21:48.030]  [SPEAKER_01]: All right, it started off nice and pleasant.
[21:48.420 --> 21:52.220]  [SPEAKER_01]: We pulled up and started answering a couple of questions.
[21:52.360 --> 21:52.800]  [SPEAKER_01]: Where do you live?
[21:52.860 --> 21:53.400]  [SPEAKER_01]: That kind of thing.
[21:54.100 --> 21:58.040]  [SPEAKER_01]: But after a while, the questions started becoming more and more hostile.
[21:58.380 --> 22:05.140]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, we had a rented car and for whatever reason, the rental agreement had been lost.
[22:05.860 --> 22:09.020]  [SPEAKER_01]: And this does happen occasionally.
[22:09.240 --> 22:11.200]  [SPEAKER_01]: But it's very easy to check these things out.
[22:11.220 --> 22:17.680]  [SPEAKER_01]: I know because I've asked law officials how easy it is to check out.
[22:17.760 --> 22:19.100]  [SPEAKER_01]: I know people that check these things out.
[22:19.180 --> 22:28.920]  [SPEAKER_01]: All you have to do is if you really have a problem with something, you call it in and see if in fact a car has been stolen or if this person is dangerous or whatever.
[22:28.920 --> 22:30.360]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's very easy to check that out.
[22:30.460 --> 22:33.380]  [SPEAKER_01]: But it became clear that that was not what was going to happen.
[22:33.620 --> 22:44.140]  [SPEAKER_01]: It became clear that we were going to be given the once over, twice over, however many times just because they didn't like the way we looked.
[22:44.740 --> 22:50.880]  [SPEAKER_01]: And after it became clear they didn't like the way we looked, we made it clear that we didn't like the way they acted.
[22:51.460 --> 22:53.980]  [SPEAKER_01]: And we became more and more terse with them.
[22:54.600 --> 23:00.500]  [SPEAKER_01]: And when they asked questions like how come I get the feeling that you're not being honest with us.
[23:01.320 --> 23:04.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: Weird answer were things like, maybe because you're just too suspicious.
[23:05.260 --> 23:07.300]  [SPEAKER_01]: Why don't you just check it out?
[23:07.560 --> 23:11.660]  [SPEAKER_01]: Why don't you just run the license plate and see that there is nothing wrong?
[23:11.800 --> 23:13.280]  [SPEAKER_01]: But, of course, they could not do that.
[23:13.560 --> 23:23.160]  [SPEAKER_01]: They had to send these suspicious-looking people into the customs building where we were held for the next three hours for no reason at all.
[23:23.480 --> 23:27.680]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I'll tell you what was really interesting about this was watching how U.S.
[23:27.760 --> 23:28.560]  [SPEAKER_01]: Customs operates.
[23:29.000 --> 23:30.740]  [SPEAKER_01]: It was fascinating, folks.
[23:30.860 --> 23:32.460]  [SPEAKER_01]: It was absolutely fascinating.
[23:33.240 --> 23:37.940]  [SPEAKER_01]: I saw how everybody... and I'm not exaggerating here.
[23:38.260 --> 23:41.000]  [SPEAKER_01]: I might sound like I'm exaggerating, but I am not.
[23:42.740 --> 23:49.880]  [SPEAKER_01]: Every white person going through the border was asked about one or two questions and waved on.
[23:50.820 --> 24:01.420]  [SPEAKER_01]: Every black, Hispanic, or otherwise minority person was interrogated and, in most instances, sent inside to be searched, to have their baggage open, to have their cars ripped apart.
[24:02.620 --> 24:06.560]  [SPEAKER_01]: It was one of the most dismaying things I think I've ever seen.
[24:08.820 --> 24:15.640]  [SPEAKER_01]: And after watching this for quite some time, I realized that I didn't have to smile.
[24:15.640 --> 24:20.760]  [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't have to sit there and nod, yes sir, no sir.
[24:21.080 --> 24:27.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: Dammit, I was an American citizen and I was being mistreated by my own government yet again for no reason.
[24:28.180 --> 24:29.940]  [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, folks, we don't have to take this.
[24:30.100 --> 24:36.940]  [SPEAKER_01]: We don't have to sit back and just smile and realize, hey, these people have guns and they can do whatever they want and run roughshod over us.
[24:37.060 --> 24:38.820]  [SPEAKER_01]: No, you don't have to take that.
[24:39.670 --> 24:43.160]  [SPEAKER_01]: And you let them know that you're not happy with it.
[24:44.760 --> 24:46.460]  [SPEAKER_01]: And at one point, I did let them know.
[24:46.580 --> 24:51.800]  [SPEAKER_01]: I said, you know, this is really an abomination here.
[24:52.240 --> 24:54.300]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I said, well, you know, it's just a routine thing.
[24:54.420 --> 24:55.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: Everybody has to go through it.
[24:56.320 --> 24:57.140]  [SPEAKER_01]: I said, routine?
[24:57.300 --> 25:02.380]  [SPEAKER_01]: The only people you have in here are people that are the wrong color and people that are wearing the wrong kinds of clothing.
[25:03.120 --> 25:04.940]  [SPEAKER_01]: I said, referring to tie-dye shirts.
[25:05.060 --> 25:09.600]  [SPEAKER_01]: I said, the only people you have in here are people with tie-dye shirts and black people.
[25:10.420 --> 25:19.420]  [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, one of the customs officers said, kind of as a half a side, I've got one myself, actually.
[25:20.580 --> 25:23.440]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, I think he was referring to a tie-dye shirt, but who knows?
[25:23.520 --> 25:24.980]  [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe he was referring to a black person.
[25:24.980 --> 25:25.880]  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
[25:26.500 --> 25:28.020]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I sure didn't want to find out.
[25:31.850 --> 25:42.970]  [SPEAKER_01]: But when you're in a situation where you know that they've got absolutely nothing on you, and believe me, folks, you want to make sure that they can't get things on you.
[25:43.870 --> 25:46.890]  [SPEAKER_01]: They didn't get anything on me because there was nothing to get on me.
[25:49.330 --> 25:53.850]  [SPEAKER_01]: But when you're in a situation like that, you can be as righteous as you want to be.
[25:54.430 --> 25:58.450]  [SPEAKER_01]: You can say, look, there's nothing illegal here.
[25:58.870 --> 25:59.930]  [SPEAKER_01]: Go check it out.
[26:02.010 --> 26:03.790]  [SPEAKER_01]: Do you want me to explain it to you?
[26:04.050 --> 26:08.550]  [SPEAKER_01]: Do you want me to tell you what this particular thing is?
[26:08.810 --> 26:21.170]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, one thing that they really hate, and I suggest everybody do this, when you go over the border and when you get harassed, because I imagine a lot of WBAI listeners will get harassed, especially if you say you listen to WBAI.
[26:21.450 --> 26:23.050]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's probably a no-no up there.
[26:23.050 --> 26:40.110]  [SPEAKER_01]: However, if you are asked questions, you simply answer them to the best of your ability, but if they ask you what it is that you do, say that you're a freelance writer.
[26:40.410 --> 26:41.930]  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, they hate that.
[26:42.310 --> 26:43.990]  [SPEAKER_01]: They do not like writers.
[26:45.250 --> 26:58.490]  [SPEAKER_01]: And almost every time I was asked that question, because we were asked the same questions about four or five different times by these people, we said we were freelance writers, and they said, so what do you write?
[26:59.370 --> 27:23.470]  [SPEAKER_01]: I said all kinds of things, including accounts of my experiences while traveling that appear in various major newspapers and magazines, as well as articles about computer hackers and telephone technology and, yes, abridging of certain fundamental rights.
[27:25.870 --> 27:27.350]  [SPEAKER_01]: They don't like that kind of thing.
[27:27.570 --> 27:31.370]  [SPEAKER_01]: And they also don't like it when they find things they don't understand.
[27:31.530 --> 27:36.970]  [SPEAKER_01]: And believe me, when you have a couple of computer hackers traveling around, there's plenty of things that the authorities will not understand.
[27:38.610 --> 27:42.830]  [SPEAKER_01]: Such as magazine articles that might have been written.
[27:43.370 --> 27:46.030]  [SPEAKER_01]: At one point, they were questioning our integrity.
[27:46.230 --> 27:59.450]  [SPEAKER_01]: They were saying, you folks are writers for 2600 Magazine, and aren't you telling people how to break into computer systems, and how to defeat technology, and do illegal things?
[28:01.390 --> 28:07.050]  [SPEAKER_01]: And we said, we don't have to answer that question because we've got certain rights.
[28:07.430 --> 28:08.270]  [SPEAKER_01]: Freedom of the press.
[28:10.250 --> 28:11.750]  [SPEAKER_01]: You ever hear of freedom of the press?
[28:12.350 --> 28:13.770]  [SPEAKER_01]: You can't stop us.
[28:14.150 --> 28:15.110]  [SPEAKER_01]: And you won't.
[28:18.260 --> 28:19.140]  [SPEAKER_01]: They moved on.
[28:19.220 --> 28:26.720]  [SPEAKER_01]: They moved on to various bits of technology that we carried with us, including FM wireless transmitters, the schematics of which we printed a couple of issues ago.
[28:27.240 --> 28:28.540]  [SPEAKER_01]: They said, what are these things?
[28:28.620 --> 28:29.220]  [SPEAKER_01]: They look evil.
[28:31.420 --> 28:32.440]  [SPEAKER_01]: And we explained.
[28:32.760 --> 28:35.060]  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, you can get these kind of things in Radio Shack.
[28:35.700 --> 28:36.660]  [SPEAKER_01]: They're transmitters.
[28:36.780 --> 28:45.980]  [SPEAKER_01]: They transmit little things at very low frequencies over low power, rather.
[28:45.980 --> 28:46.600]  [SPEAKER_01]: Not low frequencies.
[28:46.680 --> 28:47.720]  [SPEAKER_01]: Over FM frequencies.
[28:49.720 --> 28:50.760]  [SPEAKER_01]: They opened them up.
[28:51.080 --> 28:52.280]  [SPEAKER_01]: They broke them, actually.
[28:52.580 --> 28:53.540]  [SPEAKER_01]: They broke both of them.
[28:56.340 --> 28:58.180]  [SPEAKER_01]: And they didn't understand it at all.
[28:59.780 --> 29:02.280]  [SPEAKER_01]: And then they were asking all about our credit cards.
[29:02.440 --> 29:04.580]  [SPEAKER_01]: Because, you know something, folks?
[29:04.780 --> 29:05.760]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to tell you this here.
[29:06.800 --> 29:11.380]  [SPEAKER_01]: When you have a credit card, every single credit card company allows you to do this.
[29:11.460 --> 29:14.740]  [SPEAKER_01]: They allow you to get credit cards under different names.
[29:14.760 --> 29:18.960]  [SPEAKER_01]: As long as you pay the bill, you can have a credit card under any name you want.
[29:20.240 --> 29:26.020]  [SPEAKER_01]: And it's kind of neat to have credit cards under all different names because you can flash them and impress people.
[29:27.080 --> 29:29.180]  [SPEAKER_01]: Fun thing to do at hacker conventions, you know?
[29:30.520 --> 29:42.920]  [SPEAKER_01]: But, of course, when you're obsessed with illegal things, when you're suspicious of everybody, you think that all of these other names mean something significant.
[29:46.410 --> 29:53.770]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, when they found all these additional cards and additional identities, as they put them, they thought for sure we were up to something.
[29:53.970 --> 29:59.370]  [SPEAKER_01]: Even though, uh, we said, look, the card numbers are exactly the same as the real names here.
[29:59.770 --> 30:02.210]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, they're simply additions.
[30:02.570 --> 30:06.290]  [SPEAKER_01]: They're simply additional names that the credit card companies allow.
[30:06.410 --> 30:07.430]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's perfectly legal.
[30:07.810 --> 30:09.130]  [SPEAKER_01]: Go check it out.
[30:10.710 --> 30:15.970]  [SPEAKER_01]: So, uh, after the first couple of hours, we decided we weren't going to not have fun.
[30:16.110 --> 30:20.830]  [SPEAKER_01]: We decided to call our friends all over the country on their payphones and have them call us back.
[30:21.010 --> 30:23.470]  [SPEAKER_01]: And we were having a grand old time speaking to everybody.
[30:24.130 --> 30:25.610]  [SPEAKER_01]: And that's when they said we could leave.
[30:25.730 --> 30:34.090]  [SPEAKER_01]: After they tore apart the car and made quite a mess of it, they, uh, allowed us back into this wonderful country.
[30:34.230 --> 30:35.950]  [SPEAKER_01]: And you know what they said on the way out?
[30:37.270 --> 30:40.010]  [SPEAKER_01]: They said, you know, you're probably upset.
[30:40.710 --> 30:43.010]  [SPEAKER_01]: You probably think that you've been hassled.
[30:43.010 --> 30:48.330]  [SPEAKER_01]: You probably think that, uh, us holding you here for three hours was, uh, a bad thing.
[30:48.470 --> 30:50.170]  [SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, sometimes it's necessary.
[30:51.410 --> 30:56.510]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, of course, first of all, they wanted so badly to find something on us because they didn't like our looks to start with.
[30:56.670 --> 31:10.050]  [SPEAKER_01]: And then once they realized we were into technology and we understood things and were capable of manipulating things to our advantage, they wanted something on us so badly that three times, three separate times, they tore apart the car looking for something.
[31:10.050 --> 31:15.230]  [SPEAKER_01]: and they searched us, made us empty our pockets, asked to see our money several times.
[31:15.250 --> 31:29.110]  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if they were asking for a bribe or what, but they kept asking over and over again how much money we had, what we did, what we bought, where we went, who we were, why we were there, what we wrote, what kind of things did we write.
[31:31.690 --> 31:37.230]  [SPEAKER_01]: And so after all of this, they said, you know, you probably feel like it's a bad thing.
[31:38.690 --> 31:40.950]  [SPEAKER_01]: But it's important that we do this.
[31:41.310 --> 31:44.410]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's important that we check people out sometimes.
[31:45.350 --> 31:58.850]  [SPEAKER_01]: And the reason they gave was the main reason they gave for checking us out so much were these little FM wireless transmitters, which was very easy to demonstrate and explain to them.
[31:58.850 --> 32:13.170]  [SPEAKER_01]: They said, we thought, and we had to confer with all the customs agents all over the country, our technological experts, we thought that these things could be used to rip off automatic teller machines.
[32:13.950 --> 32:16.010]  [SPEAKER_01]: Because there have been all kinds of bank robberies.
[32:17.070 --> 32:24.290]  [SPEAKER_01]: And these devices look like they might be able to tap into banks and give out money from ATMs.
[32:24.390 --> 32:34.590]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, first of all, five-year-old kids know that banks don't use wireless communication to spit money out of ATMs.
[32:35.970 --> 32:39.250]  [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's a little bit of common sense right there.
[32:40.030 --> 32:40.850]  [SPEAKER_01]: They didn't know this.
[32:40.910 --> 32:41.790]  [SPEAKER_01]: They had to check this out.
[32:41.830 --> 32:42.470]  [SPEAKER_01]: Or so they said.
[32:42.490 --> 32:43.830]  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't really believe that story.
[32:44.330 --> 32:45.970]  [SPEAKER_01]: But that's the excuse they gave.
[32:46.870 --> 32:49.570]  [SPEAKER_01]: They said, we had to check it out.
[32:51.590 --> 32:55.210]  [SPEAKER_01]: And you know, we got their badge numbers.
[32:55.210 --> 32:56.050]  [SPEAKER_01]: We got their names.
[32:56.390 --> 32:57.130]  [SPEAKER_01]: We got their address.
[32:57.450 --> 32:58.450]  [SPEAKER_01]: We got their phone numbers.
[32:58.570 --> 32:59.270]  [SPEAKER_01]: We got everything.
[33:01.050 --> 33:02.650]  [SPEAKER_01]: And we're not going to let this rest.
[33:03.050 --> 33:05.270]  [SPEAKER_01]: We're going to keep challenging things like this.
[33:05.350 --> 33:14.390]  [SPEAKER_01]: Whether it's a hat, whether it's being harassed entering a country because of the way you look, because of your racial makeup, because of what you say, how you act, or what your name is.
[33:15.190 --> 33:18.510]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's the kind of thing that you've got to stand up for.
[33:18.670 --> 33:20.610]  [SPEAKER_01]: And when it happens to you, you tell other people.
[33:22.890 --> 33:24.150]  [SPEAKER_01]: Enough said about that.
[33:25.790 --> 33:37.430]  [SPEAKER_01]: We're going to get into what happened today, more or less along the same lines against computer hackers, right after we play a song in tribute to bank robbers that never were.
[34:09.780 --> 34:11.180]  [SPEAKER_03]: Let's go.
[34:12.180 --> 34:17.020]  [SPEAKER_03]: Let's go.
[34:23.340 --> 34:26.140]  [SPEAKER_03]: Let's go.
[34:26.140 --> 34:29.420]  [SPEAKER_03]: We are back.
[37:19.260 --> 37:25.660]  [SPEAKER_01]: The song is called Bank Robber, dedicated to all those dangerous ones of us out there that you never know what they're going to do next.
[37:25.820 --> 37:32.920]  [SPEAKER_01]: Originally done by The Clash, that was versioned by, all right, I'll try this, Ann Riffin and One Style MDB.
[37:32.920 --> 37:42.700]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not really sure what language that was in, but it comes off a compilation called The Clash Tribute, where every song is done by a different group, and quite a lot of interesting versions on there.
[37:44.140 --> 37:45.760]  [SPEAKER_01]: And the program is off the hook.
[37:45.840 --> 37:46.760]  [SPEAKER_01]: This is Emmanuel Goldstein.
[37:46.880 --> 37:56.400]  [SPEAKER_01]: We're together until 10 o'clock, talking about all kinds of abridgements of freedom in the electronic world, and in the real world as well, because they're never too far apart.
[37:56.860 --> 38:09.320]  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, first they tell us what we can say, what we can do on computer systems, and next thing you know they're telling us what to do on newspapers, on the radio, things like that.
[38:10.320 --> 38:20.140]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, we may one day be known as the Freedom Network, but right now we're still WBAI, and we tell you all kinds of things, as they happen probably before other people do.
[38:21.120 --> 38:23.040]  [SPEAKER_01]: Today was a rather interesting day.
[38:23.160 --> 38:36.900]  [SPEAKER_01]: There was an indictment at press conference here in New York City, announcing the indictment of five computer hackers, at least one of which has appeared fairly regularly on this program as none other than Phiber Optik.
[38:37.580 --> 38:42.960]  [SPEAKER_01]: The others were known as Outlaw, Corrupt, Acid Freak, Scorpion, names like that.
[38:43.020 --> 38:48.200]  [SPEAKER_01]: And of course, you look at those names and you say, wow, what evil people, what horrible things they must have been doing.
[38:49.160 --> 39:03.140]  [SPEAKER_01]: But let me tell you, when people are young, adventuresome, and into different, sometimes mischievous things, you never know what kind of names they're going to come up with.
[39:03.640 --> 39:07.020]  [SPEAKER_01]: You can't really judge somebody by a name now, can you?
[39:07.240 --> 39:08.380]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, yeah, of course you can.
[39:08.520 --> 39:11.600]  [SPEAKER_01]: We do it all the time, but it doesn't make it all right.
[39:12.180 --> 39:16.660]  [SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, I'd like to read a couple of things here, and then tell you a couple of things.
[39:17.000 --> 39:21.700]  [SPEAKER_01]: And if we have time, take a couple of phone calls, but I can't guarantee anything at this particular point.
[39:23.300 --> 39:28.980]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, a lot of this centered around a so-called hacker group known as MOD.
[39:28.980 --> 39:32.680]  [SPEAKER_01]: And in the indictment, they have a definition of this.
[39:32.780 --> 39:36.640]  [SPEAKER_01]: They say, MOD was a closely-knit group of computer hackers.
[39:36.800 --> 39:45.380]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, it's interesting they should say this, because that's the exact same phrase they used when they were describing the Legion of Doom a couple of years ago, and they were indicting them left and right, closely-knit group.
[39:45.460 --> 39:46.960]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, this is rather funny here.
[39:47.080 --> 39:51.940]  [SPEAKER_01]: They say, MOD was a closely-knit group of computer hackers located primarily in the New York City area.
[39:52.600 --> 40:03.240]  [SPEAKER_01]: And, of course, they define the term computer hacker as someone who uses a computer or telephone to obtain unauthorized access to other computers, which, of course, is not an accurate definition, but we won't even get into that.
[40:04.040 --> 40:15.260]  [SPEAKER_01]: What's funny here is when they say MOD was a closely-knit group of computer hackers, they go on to say the letters MOD had various meanings, among them masters of disaster and masters of deception.
[40:15.260 --> 40:19.140]  [SPEAKER_01]: In other words, nobody really knew what MOD stood for.
[40:19.140 --> 40:21.560]  [SPEAKER_01]: Nobody really knew what the initials meant.
[40:21.580 --> 40:25.380]  [SPEAKER_01]: This is a closely-knit group of people that didn't even know what their name was.
[40:26.060 --> 40:36.680]  [SPEAKER_01]: In fact, there are people that are members of MOD that didn't even know they were members of MOD because there really isn't such a tightly-organized group of people.
[40:36.880 --> 40:44.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm speaking from personal experience here because knowing computer hackers, you know that they're not exactly a tightly-organized group.
[40:45.660 --> 40:48.440]  [SPEAKER_01]: If there were a bit more organization, maybe these things wouldn't happen.
[40:48.440 --> 40:51.500]  [SPEAKER_01]: But there is very little organization.
[40:51.780 --> 40:57.080]  [SPEAKER_01]: So right away, we're starting off in the very first part of this indictment with something that is not true.
[40:59.140 --> 41:08.020]  [SPEAKER_01]: And they go on to talk all about people using their various handles and various companies that they quote-unquote victimized.
[41:08.340 --> 41:13.420]  [SPEAKER_01]: Southwestern Bell, British Telecom of North America, New York Telephone, Pacific Bell, U.S.
[41:13.520 --> 41:21.420]  [SPEAKER_01]: West, Martin Marietta, ITT, Information America, and various other places as well.
[41:22.700 --> 41:25.780]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, they say there is a conspiracy.
[41:26.760 --> 41:27.930]  [SPEAKER_01]: And of course, a conspiracy...
[41:28.500 --> 41:33.180]  [SPEAKER_01]: To prove a conspiracy, you have to prove organization, which is why that first part is so important.
[41:33.180 --> 41:36.460]  [SPEAKER_01]: Why it's so important to say that this was a tightly-knit group of people.
[41:37.580 --> 41:45.940]  [SPEAKER_01]: They say from in or about 1989 through the date of the filing of this indictment in the Southern District of New York and elsewhere, these hackers...
[41:45.940 --> 41:50.100]  [SPEAKER_01]: I will give their handles because I'm sure you can read the post to get other names.
[41:50.240 --> 41:51.260]  [SPEAKER_01]: We don't have to give them out here.
[41:52.100 --> 42:00.240]  [SPEAKER_01]: Outlaw, John Farrington, corrupt, fiber optic, acid freak, scorpion, and others known and unknown to the grand jury.
[42:00.880 --> 42:13.560]  [SPEAKER_01]: Collectively, the co-conspirators unlawfully, willfully, and knowingly did combine, conspire, confederate, and agree together and with each other to commit offenses against the United States of America.
[42:13.720 --> 42:18.500]  [SPEAKER_01]: To wit, to possess unauthorized access devices with the intent to defraud.
[42:19.620 --> 42:22.300]  [SPEAKER_01]: Folks, do you know what an unauthorized access device is?
[42:23.500 --> 42:24.640]  [SPEAKER_01]: A password.
[42:25.000 --> 42:27.040]  [SPEAKER_01]: A password to a computer system.
[42:27.180 --> 42:34.040]  [SPEAKER_01]: You write down a password which you get somehow or maybe an authorization code that might allow you to make a free phone call.
[42:34.120 --> 42:35.800]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm not saying that they had this themselves.
[42:36.540 --> 42:38.680]  [SPEAKER_01]: But I'm looking at their definition of this.
[42:40.560 --> 42:45.920]  [SPEAKER_01]: Something like that is known as an unauthorized access device.
[42:46.540 --> 42:48.320]  [SPEAKER_01]: A bunch of numbers written on a piece of paper.
[42:48.420 --> 42:48.760]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's it.
[42:49.580 --> 42:50.020]  [SPEAKER_01]: All right.
[42:50.100 --> 42:50.480]  [SPEAKER_01]: There you go.
[42:50.540 --> 42:51.880]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's your conspiracy right there.
[42:52.260 --> 42:56.720]  [SPEAKER_01]: Did this with the intent of defraud and violation of Title 18 United States Code blah, blah, blah.
[42:57.360 --> 43:09.880]  [SPEAKER_01]: To use and traffic in unauthorized access devices with the intent to defraud to access federal interest computers without authorization to intercept electronic communications to commit wire fraud.
[43:11.280 --> 43:21.380]  [SPEAKER_01]: It was a part and object of the conspiracy that the co-conspirators unlawfully, willfully, knowingly, and with the intent to defraud would and did possess 15 and more unauthorized access devices.
[43:21.380 --> 43:34.240]  [SPEAKER_01]: To wit, the co-conspirators would and did possess 15 and more unauthorized passwords, user identifications, personal identification numbers, and other access devices that permitted access to computer systems, databases, and telephone services.
[43:37.310 --> 43:43.630]  [SPEAKER_01]: Not exactly John Gotti material, but it's getting the same amount of attention.
[43:44.330 --> 43:47.130]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's getting the same amount of press.
[43:47.670 --> 43:48.910]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, actually, no, that's not true.
[43:48.970 --> 43:52.470]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's not getting the same amount of press, but it's getting the same amount of hysteria attached to it.
[43:52.590 --> 43:56.970]  [SPEAKER_01]: Same amount of tabloid nonsense that goes with these stories.
[43:58.450 --> 44:03.210]  [SPEAKER_01]: And what we're talking about are people simply exploring computer systems.
[44:03.410 --> 44:04.630]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, you may not think that's right.
[44:04.730 --> 44:16.510]  [SPEAKER_01]: You may think that what they're doing is illegal, wrong, but is it so wrong that you would charge them with these felony counts that can carry many years in prison?
[44:16.510 --> 44:27.110]  [SPEAKER_01]: Would you send some of our brightest people that we have that simply believe in exploring certain caves, certain haunted houses, if you will?
[44:27.550 --> 44:31.210]  [SPEAKER_01]: An analogy that many people like, but it is an analogy.
[44:32.130 --> 44:33.810]  [SPEAKER_01]: Will you send those people to prison?
[44:33.810 --> 44:35.490]  [SPEAKER_01]: What will become of that?
[44:35.610 --> 44:37.990]  [SPEAKER_01]: What will we gain in mainstream society?
[44:38.870 --> 44:40.170]  [SPEAKER_01]: And how will they come out?
[44:42.070 --> 44:45.870]  [SPEAKER_01]: All right, let's get into some specifics here.
[44:46.070 --> 44:47.350]  [SPEAKER_01]: Goal of the conspiracy.
[44:48.410 --> 45:06.190]  [SPEAKER_01]: Again, I have to point out, I really, really doubt that these hackers or any other hackers in the country that I've ever heard of or seen sat around and said, Let's have this massive conspiracy to defraud all these people, to do this, do that.
[45:07.710 --> 45:15.770]  [SPEAKER_01]: Like I said, hacking is a very unorganized sport where people simply wander around and see how various systems work.
[45:16.590 --> 45:18.430]  [SPEAKER_01]: We get hackers on our voicemail system.
[45:18.490 --> 45:19.750]  [SPEAKER_01]: We get hackers on our answering machine.
[45:19.910 --> 45:21.250]  [SPEAKER_01]: We get hackers all over the place.
[45:23.190 --> 45:29.010]  [SPEAKER_01]: And while you may not always be happy with what they do, in the long run, what they are doing is healthy.
[45:30.330 --> 45:31.470]  [SPEAKER_01]: Goal of the conspiracy.
[45:31.790 --> 45:47.650]  [SPEAKER_01]: It was the goal of the conspiracy that the members of MOD, whatever it stood for, would gain access to and control of computer systems in order to enhance their image and prestige among other computer hackers, to harass and intimidate rival hackers and other people they did not like,
[45:47.930 --> 46:00.530]  [SPEAKER_01]: to obtain telephone credit information and other services without paying for them, and to obtain passwords, account numbers, and other things of value that they could sell to others.
[46:01.230 --> 46:05.430]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, that last one, if that is true, of course, I condemn that kind of a thing.
[46:05.510 --> 46:07.650]  [SPEAKER_01]: But then I have to also ask the same question.
[46:08.310 --> 46:10.410]  [SPEAKER_01]: Does the punishment fit the crime?
[46:10.610 --> 46:15.610]  [SPEAKER_01]: And again, that's something that has to be proven, and I know of no case where somebody would actually sell information.
[46:15.750 --> 46:21.150]  [SPEAKER_01]: And if it is proven that something like that happened, that is a very rare thing in the hacker world.
[46:21.270 --> 46:22.990]  [SPEAKER_01]: Believe me, it would be a first.
[46:28.850 --> 46:33.850]  [SPEAKER_01]: And to compete with other computer hackers in their quest for access to and control of computer systems.
[46:34.110 --> 46:42.010]  [SPEAKER_01]: The members of MLD exchanged computer-related information among themselves, including passwords, user identifications, and personal identification numbers.
[46:42.370 --> 46:48.190]  [SPEAKER_01]: The members of MLD also assisted each other in breaking into computer systems by sharing technical information.
[46:48.770 --> 46:50.310]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's really what they don't like.
[46:50.510 --> 46:56.970]  [SPEAKER_01]: They shared technical information regarding the configuration and security systems of target computers.
[46:56.970 --> 47:04.290]  [SPEAKER_01]: The members of MLD agreed to share important computer information only among themselves and not with other computer hackers.
[47:04.490 --> 47:08.530]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, that, my friends, is a damnable lie.
[47:08.870 --> 47:14.710]  [SPEAKER_01]: Because I know of many instances where these people helped out other inexperienced people and answered questions.
[47:15.870 --> 47:20.150]  [SPEAKER_01]: And no, they didn't lead them into a life of crime.
[47:20.790 --> 47:31.590]  [SPEAKER_01]: They answered questions about their telephones, about how to defeat call waiting, about how to do various things that people are not always taught.
[47:35.560 --> 47:38.160]  [SPEAKER_01]: I suppose that makes them part of the conspiracy as well.
[47:39.540 --> 48:00.460]  [SPEAKER_01]: The co-conspirators obtained password user identifications and other unauthorized access devices through a variety of means, including data interceptions, social engineering, which they define as making telephone calls to telephone company employees and other persons pretending to be computer technicians or others who are authorized to obtain access devices and related information.
[48:00.460 --> 48:06.600]  [SPEAKER_01]: One of the oldest tricks in the book where you fake somebody out on the telephone and they tell you something they're not supposed to.
[48:08.780 --> 48:17.900]  [SPEAKER_01]: And it's never really been considered a crime before, but I suppose now, with caller ID and all that kind of thing, we're going to be accountable for 100% of all of our actions at all times.
[48:18.580 --> 48:19.380]  [SPEAKER_01]: Here's another one.
[48:19.540 --> 48:22.280]  [SPEAKER_01]: Password grabbing and password cracking programs.
[48:23.340 --> 48:26.300]  [SPEAKER_01]: We've devoted quite a bit of space to this in 2600.
[48:27.120 --> 48:33.780]  [SPEAKER_01]: Co-conspirators wrote and used various computer programs that were designed to steal passwords from computers in which the programs were inserted.
[48:34.000 --> 48:46.940]  [SPEAKER_01]: The co-conspirators maintained other programs that were designed to crack encrypted passwords, that is, to take passwords that had been scrambled into a code for security purposes and to break the code so that the passwords could be used to obtain unauthorized access to computer systems.
[48:47.900 --> 48:54.360]  [SPEAKER_01]: This kind of thing is sort of like a hobby that many people engage in to see if they can crack a code.
[48:56.560 --> 49:02.540]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's now going to be illegal even to try, in the comfort of your own home, to crack a code.
[49:08.210 --> 49:09.490]  [SPEAKER_01]: Over at Axe.
[49:10.430 --> 49:24.370]  [SPEAKER_01]: On or about November 28th, 1989, members of MLD caused virtually all the information contained within the Learning Link computer operated by the Educational Broadcasting Corporation to be destroyed and caused a message to be left on the computer that said,
[49:24.510 --> 49:27.250]  [SPEAKER_01]: in part, Happy Thanksgiving, you turkeys, from all of us at MOD.
[49:28.710 --> 49:38.110]  [SPEAKER_01]: And, of course, that kind of destruction is something that does not happen very often in the hacker world and something like that, of course, is not a good thing.
[49:38.250 --> 49:41.830]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's frowned upon by almost everybody that I know.
[49:43.130 --> 49:48.010]  [SPEAKER_01]: And something like that, if you're going to accuse somebody of something like that, you better prove it.
[49:48.610 --> 49:53.970]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I hope they're able to prove an allegation like that because that's blasphemy if they don't.
[49:55.610 --> 50:02.430]  [SPEAKER_01]: And even if they do manage to prove something on that, again, you have to ask the question, does the punishment fit the crime?
[50:04.930 --> 50:05.630]  [SPEAKER_01]: All right.
[50:05.850 --> 50:11.970]  [SPEAKER_01]: But that is something that is so rare that is really the exception here as far as all the accusations.
[50:13.730 --> 50:23.410]  [SPEAKER_01]: The crimes that these people are being accused of, this person here, for instance, January 8, 1990, accessed a New York telephone switching computer without authorization.
[50:25.590 --> 50:32.730]  [SPEAKER_01]: They issued a command to call forward all calls received by one telephone number to another telephone number.
[50:33.850 --> 50:36.110]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's several years in prison doing that.
[50:37.170 --> 50:37.490]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[50:37.910 --> 50:39.550]  [SPEAKER_01]: Or several hundred thousand dollars, fine.
[50:39.710 --> 50:41.210]  [SPEAKER_01]: You take your choice.
[50:42.150 --> 50:42.690]  [SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
[50:42.950 --> 50:44.350]  [SPEAKER_01]: You access something without authorization.
[50:44.650 --> 50:46.010]  [SPEAKER_01]: You issue a command without authorization.
[50:46.070 --> 50:47.050]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's not right.
[50:47.430 --> 50:49.270]  [SPEAKER_01]: You're doing something you're not supposed to do.
[50:50.930 --> 50:57.750]  [SPEAKER_01]: Just like when you enter a building that's locked to explore.
[50:58.290 --> 51:00.010]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's something you're not supposed to do either.
[51:00.130 --> 51:03.910]  [SPEAKER_01]: But you react in a completely different way.
[51:04.370 --> 51:05.750]  [SPEAKER_01]: You have better security.
[51:05.890 --> 51:08.530]  [SPEAKER_01]: You don't make it so damn easy for people to do things like this.
[51:08.750 --> 51:10.950]  [SPEAKER_01]: Why is this still able to be done?
[51:11.150 --> 51:12.510]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's been happening now for years.
[51:13.250 --> 51:23.450]  [SPEAKER_01]: Do you think by intimidating people, by sending people away and finding them and putting them through hell that you're going to stop everybody from exploring, from playing with systems?
[51:23.450 --> 51:23.930]  [SPEAKER_01]: You're not.
[51:25.130 --> 51:26.530]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's a big waste of time.
[51:27.310 --> 51:36.910]  [SPEAKER_01]: This other person possessed numerous password files containing hundreds of encrypted and unencrypted user identifications and passwords to telephone company computers and other computers.
[51:37.910 --> 51:39.510]  [SPEAKER_01]: Possession of passwords.
[51:39.770 --> 51:40.770]  [SPEAKER_01]: Major crime there.
[51:41.990 --> 51:45.610]  [SPEAKER_01]: The question is, how can somebody get things like this?
[51:45.990 --> 51:51.070]  [SPEAKER_01]: Why are the phone companies so inept that they allow their passwords to get out?
[51:52.850 --> 51:57.370]  [SPEAKER_01]: This other person possessed a backdoor computer program and a password grabbing program.
[51:59.590 --> 52:06.570]  [SPEAKER_01]: This other person on May 31st, 1991 obtained unauthorized access to a Southwestern Bell computer in St. Louis, Missouri.
[52:08.830 --> 52:18.790]  [SPEAKER_01]: Someone else obtained unauthorized access to a Southwestern Bell telephone switching computer in Houston, Texas and issued commands so that calls received by one telephone number would be automatically forwarded to another number.
[52:21.310 --> 52:25.990]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's basically a lot of the same bits of information.
[52:26.170 --> 52:38.530]  [SPEAKER_01]: But what's very interesting here and what's very disturbing here is what is said in a couple of other examples, other items.
[52:38.850 --> 52:48.730]  [SPEAKER_01]: On or about November 5th, 1991, from his residence in Brooklyn, New York, the hacker known as Corrupt obtained a user identification and password.
[52:51.070 --> 52:59.870]  [SPEAKER_01]: And later, on November 5th, 1991, this person called the hacker known as Outlaw and provided them with the intercepted user identification and password.
[53:00.190 --> 53:07.630]  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, the question on a lot of people's minds would be, how did they know that?
[53:07.770 --> 53:11.490]  [SPEAKER_01]: How did they know that hacker A gave this information to hacker B?
[53:13.050 --> 53:21.910]  [SPEAKER_01]: And friends, for the first time ever, we now know that telephone lines of computer hackers are being tapped.
[53:22.690 --> 53:27.530]  [SPEAKER_01]: Not just pen registers, not just keeping track of the digits that you dial.
[53:27.870 --> 53:29.350]  [SPEAKER_01]: We've known that for a long time.
[53:30.310 --> 53:33.570]  [SPEAKER_01]: The phone conversations are being listened to.
[53:35.570 --> 53:44.630]  [SPEAKER_01]: And this affects quite a few people because a lot of the people that are involved here are people that I speak to on a regular basis, which means my phones are probably tapped as well.
[53:46.450 --> 53:50.990]  [SPEAKER_01]: You realize that they're really scared.
[53:51.490 --> 53:56.290]  [SPEAKER_01]: They're really scared of these kids that know how to use technology.
[53:56.570 --> 53:59.030]  [SPEAKER_01]: And they're scared of anybody that knows that kind of thing.
[53:59.790 --> 54:05.190]  [SPEAKER_01]: They're scared of people sharing information and they want to stop it at all costs.
[54:06.530 --> 54:15.950]  [SPEAKER_01]: And they can point to the undesirable things, they can point to a moron that might crash a computer system and blame everybody else for that and say this is what computer hackers do.
[54:16.050 --> 54:21.410]  [SPEAKER_01]: They can define computer hackers as people that break into computer systems and destroy things.
[54:22.890 --> 54:35.210]  [SPEAKER_01]: But those of us that know these people, those of us that are part of this world know that it's a lie, that it's something that is simply said to get public opinion on their side.
[54:35.390 --> 54:49.370]  [SPEAKER_01]: I hope when you read the tabloids tomorrow and watch the 11 o'clock news and see all the propaganda that's going out there, that you think about this and you realize that there's an agenda here, there's a reason for this to be happening.
[54:51.390 --> 55:12.250]  [SPEAKER_01]: And that while they may succeed here, while they may manage to either put people away or shut them up for the rest of their lives or just make them into quivering masses of jello that won't cause any more problems, wars, the threat does not stop there.
[55:12.510 --> 55:20.470]  [SPEAKER_01]: The threat does not stop with a bunch of mischievous kids because after that is over, there will be more threats.
[55:21.650 --> 55:22.970]  [SPEAKER_01]: We got rid of the Soviets.
[55:24.650 --> 55:27.650]  [SPEAKER_01]: We didn't get rid of the CIA, of the military.
[55:28.910 --> 55:29.990]  [SPEAKER_01]: We didn't get rid of it.
[55:31.050 --> 55:32.630]  [SPEAKER_01]: We'll just find new threats.
[55:34.790 --> 55:36.530]  [SPEAKER_01]: And that is what's going to happen.
[55:37.370 --> 55:59.470]  [SPEAKER_01]: If they successfully manage to put down all these people with curiosity that go into the wrong places sometimes, then they'll find the next group of people that are out of line, that look the wrong way, that act the wrong way, that are uppity, that wear the wrong clothes,
[55:59.610 --> 56:00.830]  [SPEAKER_01]: that wear their hats backwards.
[56:02.670 --> 56:03.890]  [SPEAKER_01]: And they'll control you.
[56:05.170 --> 56:09.210]  [SPEAKER_01]: They'll make you do what they want you to do.
[56:10.050 --> 56:16.930]  [SPEAKER_01]: So that's why I feel people have to understand what is at issue here, what the case is all about.
[56:17.970 --> 56:26.130]  [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe you have people that have been breaking into computer systems and manipulating telephones and putting call forwarding on a phone line someplace.
[56:28.650 --> 56:30.870]  [SPEAKER_01]: Or maybe it's just a little bit bigger than that.
[56:32.290 --> 56:46.070]  [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe these are kids playing like kids have always played, but because there's more at stake here, because technology is something that the people in power want to be able to control.
[56:46.770 --> 56:48.990]  [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe a few sacrificial lambs are in order.
[56:50.950 --> 56:52.390]  [SPEAKER_01]: You've got to be careful of this kind of thing.
[56:53.310 --> 57:00.230]  [SPEAKER_01]: And you know, something else you've got to be careful of, and this is especially troubling in this particular instance, hackers are turning against hackers.
[57:01.250 --> 57:10.250]  [SPEAKER_01]: And this is something that was mentioned a little earlier in the indictment, that this group allegedly harassed hackers they did not like.
[57:11.150 --> 57:19.450]  [SPEAKER_01]: And while I was down in St. Louis at this hacker convention, I met some of these hackers that claimed to have been harassed by New York City hackers.
[57:19.630 --> 57:34.350]  [SPEAKER_01]: And they said, yeah, you know, they put call forwarding on my phone line, and as soon as they did that, I called the FBI and turned them in because it's one thing to do it to somebody else, but when they do it to me, that's something that I can't tolerate.
[57:36.990 --> 57:52.090]  [SPEAKER_01]: And you know, that's such a stupid thing to do because you're turning away from everything that you've ever learned, and you're bowing in to the pressure and saying, okay, this is legitimate.
[57:52.890 --> 58:05.790]  [SPEAKER_01]: it's okay then to go after these people and take everything that they own out of their homes and take their computers and take their notebooks and take all the books that they read and take all their personal effects.
[58:05.790 --> 58:09.130]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's okay if it's for my benefit.
[58:09.770 --> 58:21.910]  [SPEAKER_01]: And the thing that we have to learn as hackers and as people that are into freedom and liberty, freedom of speech, and I think all of our listeners can appreciate that, we have to learn that that's not okay.
[58:23.050 --> 58:28.590]  [SPEAKER_01]: That we don't allow people to do that kind of thing to us and get away with it.
[58:31.030 --> 58:35.010]  [SPEAKER_01]: So it's a sad thing to see hackers actually falling for that line.
[58:35.030 --> 58:38.750]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I hope that's an isolated instance and I hope it's something that is soon corrected.
[58:39.470 --> 58:40.310]  [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm sorry.
[58:40.630 --> 58:42.610]  [SPEAKER_01]: We didn't have any time for phone calls.
[58:44.070 --> 58:47.650]  [SPEAKER_01]: And we won't be back next week either because the Democratic Convention is in town.
[58:47.650 --> 58:53.050]  [SPEAKER_01]: And, of course, we have to cover that in our unique WBAI style.
[58:53.050 --> 58:56.930]  [SPEAKER_01]: But I'd like people to think about the troubling things that they've heard about tonight.
[58:58.090 --> 59:04.130]  [SPEAKER_01]: And if you want to help out in whatever way, please call us at the office at 2600 Magazine.
[59:04.950 --> 59:06.090]  [SPEAKER_01]: Tell us what you can do.
[59:07.770 --> 59:09.670]  [SPEAKER_01]: Because a lot of things are at stake here.
[59:09.750 --> 59:12.630]  [SPEAKER_01]: The number is 516-751-2600.
[59:13.410 --> 59:15.250]  [SPEAKER_01]: And you can leave a message on the machine.
[59:17.410 --> 59:23.430]  [SPEAKER_01]: And hopefully become a part of the ever-present fight for freedom.
[59:26.150 --> 59:27.850]  [SPEAKER_01]: This has been Off The Hook.
[59:28.450 --> 59:29.850]  [SPEAKER_01]: My name is Emmanuel Goldstein.
[59:29.970 --> 59:32.550]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'll be back in two weeks from 9 to 10 o'clock.
[59:34.010 --> 59:35.830]  [SPEAKER_01]: Talking about whatever else has come up then.
[59:35.950 --> 59:38.050]  [SPEAKER_01]: And hopefully having time for some phone calls.
[59:39.390 --> 59:41.430]  [SPEAKER_01]: Stay tuned for The Personal Computer Show.
[59:41.670 --> 59:41.970]  [SPEAKER_01]: Good night.
[59:41.970 --> 59:45.790]  [SPEAKER_05]: Good night.
[59:45.950 --> 59:51.810]  [SPEAKER_05]: Good night.