Why go to parties?
I'm going to rock and roll for you!
I'm your star!
What kind of parties?
Real good parties.
What kind of people go to these parties?
Oh, you know, sexy, extroverted, intelligent, sexy, political, sexy, socially aware, sexy.
Oh, sounds like my kind of party. When is it?
November 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th at 4 to 4.30.
November 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th at 4 to 4.30. Where?
At Don's.
Don's?
Yeah, Don Henderson's place.
Oh, Don's place!
Yeah, on Shelf Lord. It's a party and you're invited.
Thanks!
You be there!
Fight and fight! Fight and fight!
Building Bridges, a community labor report.
Thursdays, 7.30 to 8.30 p.m.
People in Motion, where they live, where they work, how they organize.
An exploration of people and issues that shape these important movements for social change.
Building Bridges, a community labor report.
Thursdays, 7.30 to 8.30 p.m.
Over WBAI 99.5 FM.
We can get it if we organize it.
We can get it if we organize it.
It's 9 o'clock. This is WBAI New York. It's time for Off The Hook.
The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
I cut myself while shaving.
Now I can't make a cough.
It couldn't get much worse.
But if they could, they would.
For Billy Bone, for the best, expect the worst.
I hope that's understood.
For Billy Bone!
For Billy Bone!
Thursdays, 7.30 to 8.30 p.m.
It's time to wake up.
It's been 12 years of a bad dream.
And now...
The sun's rising.
Well, it may not be rising here, but it's rising somewhere.
In any event, there's a slim possibility that it's rising here.
There's a slim possibility that dawn will arrive at some point.
What a strange feeling this is.
But we're not here to talk politics or anything like that.
We're here to talk technology.
This is Off The Hook.
I'm Emanuel Goldstein. We'll be together for about an hour.
In that time, we hope to spread the word of one sort or another.
Stay with us.
We've been talking about new telephone company features
and changes in the way that we'll be making phone calls in the very near future.
In fact, for some of you, that day has already come.
And tonight we'll be giving you some graphic examples, I guess,
in the words of the phone company itself.
That is, New York Telephone.
It's kind of hard to understand why you're calling in already
when you don't know what the issues are.
It's the kind of listeners we have.
They have extrasensory things all over them.
But we're not here to talk politics or anything like that.
We're here to spread the word of one sort or another.
In that time, we hope to spread the word of one sort or another.
But we're not here to talk about that.
We're here to make a demonstration of what technology is all about.
And here to begin that demonstration is a very special guest, our dial tone.
I believe with this dial tone, we're going to be calling up a new 800...
well, not a new 800 number, but an 800 number that does some new things.
Basically, an 800 number that explains how it all works.
Well, our dial tone just walked away, but we'll get another one.
These are some of the new features that are being introduced all around,
have been introduced in some places,
and will eventually be introduced everywhere.
And when we're done, we'll give out the phone number
so you can call and have the time of your life.
Welcome to New York Telephone's 24-hour toll-free instruction center.
This system provides step-by-step instructions for using our products and services.
If you have a touch-tone phone, please enter your area code
and the first three digits of your telephone number now.
If you have a rotary phone, please stay on the line.
Hello? I guess he didn't hear me. Let's try that again.
All of the features you will hear about are easy to use.
Please have a pencil and paper handy to jot down the instructions.
Let's begin.
The button on top of the phone where the receiver usually rests is called the switch hook.
The button on the lower right hand of your phone is called the number sign.
Write that down.
The button on the lower left hand of your phone is called the star sign or asterisk.
For information on custom calling services, dial 1-1.
IntelliDial, dial 1-2.
RingMate, dial 1-4.
PhoneSmart, dial 1-5.
Voice Messaging Service, dial 1-6.
To order these services, dial 6-6.
Please make your selection now.
Okay, here we go. The first selection, custom calling.
You've activated the instructions for New York Telephone's custom calling services.
Uh-oh.
For instructions on call forwarding, dial 1-1.
Freeway calling, dial 1-2.
Call waiting, dial 1-3.
Speed calling 8, dial 1-4.
And speed calling 30, dial 1-5.
To return to the main directory, dial 5-5.
You've activated the instructions for call forwarding.
To forward your call, just follow these three easy steps.
Step 1, lift your receiver.
Press 7-2 and then the number sign on your phone.
In a few seconds, you will hear a dial tone.
Step 2, dial the number where you want your calls to be transferred.
Be sure to include 1 plus the area code where required.
Step 3, when the party answers, your call forwarding is in effect.
If the number you dialed is busy or does not answer,
briefly press the switch hook and then repeat these steps.
Press 7-2 and the number sign.
When you hear the dial tone, dial the number where you want your calls to be transferred.
Listen for the two beeps and your transfer is in effect.
To discontinue your call forwarding, follow these two easy steps.
Step 1, lift your receiver.
Press 7-3 and then the number sign on your phone.
Step 2, listen for the two beeps which will tell you that your transfer is discontinued.
For instructions on call forwarding, dial 1-1.
Three-way calling, dial 1-2.
You've activated the instruction for three-way calling.
To add a third person to your telephone conversation, just follow these three easy steps.
Step 1, press the switch hook on your phone.
This puts your first call on hold.
Now listen for three quick beeps followed by a dial tone.
Step 2, dial the number of the person you want to include.
Step 3, once your third party has answered, press the switch hook again and all three of you can talk.
If the number you dialed in Step 2 is busy or does not answer,
press the switch hook twice and you will be speaking again to your original party.
If you wish to disconnect the third person, simply press the switch hook once.
If either party hangs up, you can continue to talk with whoever stays on the line.
The entire connection will be broken only when you hang up.
For instructions on call forwarding, dial 1-1.
For three-way calling, dial 1-2.
For call waiting, dial 1-3.
For instructions on call forwarding, dial 1-1.
For three-way calling, dial 1-2.
For call waiting, dial 1-3.
For instructions on call forwarding, dial 1-1.
Well, I guess there's no instructions on call waiting.
Dial 1-2.
Call waiting, dial 1-3.
Speed calling 8, dial 1-4.
Let's do that one.
You've activated the instructions for speed calling 8.
To program codes for telephone numbers that you dial frequently,
just follow these three easy steps.
Step 1, pick up your receiver.
Dial 7-4 and listen for a dial tone.
Step 2, dial the speed code,
a number between 2 and 9 that you choose to identify the telephone number.
Step 3, dial the number that you wish to assign to this code.
Be sure to include 1 plus the area code where required.
You'll hear two beeps followed by a dial tone.
That tells you the telephone number is now assigned to the code you have chosen.
This is a setup step only.
You are not making the call.
Just repeat these three steps for each additional telephone number.
For each additional telephone number you wish to code,
you can program up to 8 calls to create a speed calling 8 list.
To use your speed calling 8 codes,
simply dial the speed calling code assigned to the number you wish to call
and then press the number sign.
For instructions on call forwarding, dial 1-1.
Freeway calling, dial 1-2.
Call waiting, dial 1-3.
Speed calling 8, dial 1-4.
And speed calling 30, dial 1-5.
You've activated the instructions for speed calling 30.
To program speed call codes for numbers you dial frequently,
just follow these three easy steps.
Step 1. Pick up your receiver, dial 7-5, and listen for a dial tone.
Step 2. Dial the code any number between 20 and 49
that you wish to use to identify the telephone number.
Step 3. Dial the number that you wish to assign to this code.
Be sure to include 1 plus the area code where required.
You'll hear two beeps followed by a dial tone,
which tells you the telephone number is now assigned to the code you have chosen.
This is a setup step only. You are not making the call.
Repeat these three steps for each additional telephone number you wish to code.
You can program up to 30 telephone numbers to create a speed calling 30 list.
To use your speed calling 30 codes,
simply dial the two-digit speed calling code assigned to the number you wish to call,
and then press the number sign.
For instructions on call forwarding, dial 1-1.
Three-way calling, dial 1-2.
Call waiting, dial 1-3.
Speed calling 8, dial 1-4.
And speed calling 30, dial 1-5.
To return to the main directory, dial 5-5.
For information on custom calling services, dial 1-1.
IntelliDial, dial 1-2.
RingMate, dial 1-4.
PhoneSmart, dial 1-5.
VoiceMessagingService, dial 1-6.
To order these services, dial 6-6.
Please make your selection now.
You've activated the instructions for New York Telephone's IntelliDial calling services.
This service is for residence customers who have 2-6 telephone lines,
and business customers who have 2-9 lines.
For instructions on call transfer, dial 2-1.
Three-way calling, dial 2-2.
Call hold, dial 2-3.
Call pickup, dial 2-4.
Call waiting, dial 2-5.
Call forwarding, dial 2-6.
Speed calling, dial 2-7.
Dial intercom, dial 2-8.
To return to the main directory, dial 5-5.
You've activated the instructions for call transfer.
To transfer a call, just follow these three easy steps.
Step 1. Tell the party you're talking to that you're going to transfer the call, and press the switch hook.
You'll next hear a dial tone.
Step 2. After the tone, dial the intercom or telephone number where you want to send the call.
This number will ring.
Step 3. After the party you're calling answers, announce the call that you are transferring, and then hang up.
If the number you dialed in Step 2 does not answer or is busy, simply press the switch hook twice to return to your original call.
For instructions on call transfer, dial 2-1.
Three-way calling, dial 2-2.
Call hold, dial 2-3.
You've activated the instructions for call hold.
To place a call on hold, just follow these three easy steps.
Step 1. Tell your party that you are putting them on hold.
Step 2. Press the switch hook. You'll hear a quick tone, followed by a dial tone.
Step 3. Now dial the star sign on your phone, and then 9, and your call is now on hold.
To retrieve a call on hold, just follow these two easy steps.
Step 1. Press the switch hook. You'll hear a special tone.
Step 2. Now dial the star sign on your phone, and 9, and you are returned to your original conversation.
If you wish to switch back and forth between conversations, just press the switch hook and dial the star and 9.
For instructions on call transfer, dial 2-1.
Three-way calling, dial 2-2.
Call hold, dial 2-3.
Call pick up, dial 2-4.
You've activated the instructions for call pick up.
To answer a ringing phone in your group, just follow these two easy steps.
Step 1. Pick up your receiver and dial the star sign, and then 8.
We've been disconnected.
I guess that system can only handle so many requests before it gets upset and dumps you.
But that's a New York telephone service that has been around for a while.
However, it's just been expanded to include all of these new features, and the telephone number is 1.
Actually, 1 is not part of the telephone number, but that's what most people have to dial.
800-EZNYT.
And that's, let's see, 327-9698.
Yeah, that's the number there.
And call that, and you can enter your particular exchange.
It will tell you if you have any features that you can activate or order.
Some of them are pretty interesting.
The call transfer is certainly something that can come in handy for people that want to transfer a call someplace else.
Or put a call on hold.
They do all these amazing, marvelous things that the 90s are promising us.
Again, that number is 1-800-EZNYT, and it's really just for New York telephone customers.
And that will tell you if you have things like call return.
It will tell you if you have caller ID, but so far nobody has that yet.
I think the earliest that that's going to be around is November 16th.
And that's just one of the many things that we provide here as a service on Off the Hook.
And we'll be here until 10 o'clock talking about various other things as well.
So stay with us.
Now what I wanted to talk about tonight was the nature of hacking.
What is computer hacking?
What is good?
What is bad?
What is right?
What is wrong?
A lot of it depends on our definitions of what hacking is.
And that's something I'd like to ask people out there.
How they consider the term computer hacking to be defined these days.
Some people think of hackers as people who just do programming.
Some people think of hackers as people who explore other computer systems.
Some people think of hackers as common criminals.
A lot of it depends on how you define that particular word.
My definition of the word hacker is someone who simply likes to explore
and asks a whole lot of questions that others might not want to answer.
Someone who goes out and finds the answers on his own or her own when necessary.
I think hacking is analogous to exploring.
And that's something that I've done a lot of in my time.
I've explored outside in the real world.
Walked around on property I'm not supposed to walk around on.
You know, through forests, up mountains, beaches, down roads that say they're private.
Why? Because I want to overthrow the world?
Because I'm an anarchist?
Well, no, not really.
Just because I want to explore.
I want to see what's there.
And the idea of somebody telling you,
you can't walk in that forest, you can't walk down that road,
you can't be here,
kind of rubs you the wrong way sometimes, you know?
So a lot of us spend our time thinking of ways to get around things like that.
Thinking of ways to see what's down the road.
To see what that field is like.
To find out what that office building is.
That strange one that just popped up.
Oh, I've explored mental hospitals.
Tunnel systems.
Airports.
You name it.
And what's especially interesting about that is
when people find you exploring these places,
well, what do you think they do to you?
Do they shoot you? Do they arrest you?
Do they accuse you of the worst crime they can imagine?
Not really.
What they usually do
is simply ask you to leave.
Go away. Get out of here.
Things like that.
And in most cases, being caught trespassing
or being someplace you're technically not supposed to be
is enough.
So,
I'm having a lot of difficulty understanding
something I've always had a lot of difficulty understanding.
Maybe I'm a bit slow.
Or just not compatible with the way things seem to be going.
But why is it
that when you have people doing basically the same thing on computer systems,
and it is basically the same thing,
people exploring, people who are curious,
people who do not cause any harm,
why is it when they suddenly are found
in a place they're not supposed to be,
they're charged with all kinds of federal and state and local crimes
as if they had done the worst imaginable thing
anybody could have ever expected of them in their lifetimes?
I can't tell you how many times I've been caught in places I wasn't supposed to be,
and without fail in the real world,
I might have been spoken to a little nastily,
but I was never detained,
except for that time I tried to get back into this country,
but that's something else.
In places where you're not supposed to be,
they usually just tell you not to do it again,
or maybe take down your name or something like that,
but it's never anything more than that.
And yet the one time I was caught on a computer system I was not supposed to be on,
I was told that I could face 55 years in jail.
Five years for every time they saw me on the computer system.
And it gets worse,
because that was some time ago,
that was about eight years ago that that happened,
but to this day the same thing is going on,
and now there are all kinds of nonsensical laws
to back them up.
Laws like possession of burglary tools,
or things known as access devices.
And we've gone over this before, what access devices are.
A password to a computer system.
An AT&T calling card number.
Even a random string of digits that could be used in some way on a computer system.
They're all considered to be access devices,
and possession of 15 or more is a serious crime.
Now, there are many, many of you out there,
and many of us in here,
that possess quite a few passwords,
but not all of which we're supposed to have technically.
They're very easy to get.
Some phone companies, it's extremely easy to figure out
what their calling card patterns are,
and a lot of people do it simply to figure it out,
and see if they can crack the system.
But when you set the rules up in a way,
so that mere possession of something that is,
or ever was a password or access code,
when you set it up so that that's a crime,
you're somehow bypassing a major part
of the definition of what a crime is.
Mainly, a crime has to take place.
But that's not so anymore.
Not in the computer world.
You can be found with these numbers,
with these words on your person.
And it doesn't matter if you never accessed a machine,
it doesn't matter if you did access a machine
and didn't do any harm whatsoever,
or cost any money,
or do anything other than just look around.
It's a crime.
And hackers have gone to jail,
and the intent these days is to send more of them to jail.
And it's something that I think we really have to be careful with,
because if we give them that,
then it will be forever the assumption that
a hacker, when he or she hacks, must pay a penalty.
And that is going to be a scary world when
exploration is punished rather than encouraged.
You tell me.
Am I right or am I wrong?
Is computer hacking the same as
exploring a forest, or an office building,
or anything else of that nature?
And something very important,
because a lot of people draw the house analogy.
In all the places that I've ever trespassed or explored,
never even considered going into somebody's house.
That is different.
That is just so incredibly different
when you actually break into a home
or break into something private.
But we're talking about public areas here
or areas that simply are confined to certain people.
Have you ever snuck onto a golf course
where rich and famous people are?
How would you like to go to jail for five years for doing that?
Or for even considering doing that?
If you had the ability,
if you wrote down the address,
the directions on how to get to a golf course
and what to say to the doorman to get by him,
well, that's the equivalent of having an access device, is it not?
It's a bit of madness.
One of the people that is usually on this program, FiberOptic,
is in fact facing a good deal of this nonsense right now.
He's under federal indictment
and could be sent to jail for a long, long time.
And it's interesting because
in all the paperwork that's been filed,
not one line of it says that he ever caused any harm
or did any damage to any computer system.
He's here tonight, but we must ask
that people not ask specific questions.
Not that he has anything to hide,
but people do try to put words in your mouth sometimes
when you're in a situation like that,
and you do have to be careful.
So he's here tonight to lend expertise
into the law as it applies
to you and me and to everybody else.
Now, that thing with possession of passwords,
it's 15 or more, is that correct?
Yeah, it's 15 or more.
Yeah, that's what I've been told.
And what happens after 15?
As far as I know, they need at least 15.
And I'm no expert on the law,
but as far as I know, it's a felony.
That would be your possession of access devices
that would include anything from something
written down on a piece of paper with pen and ink,
or whether it's typed up or printed out,
or what have you.
And just by having that.
Not using it, just by having it.
As far as I know, just simple possession,
not necessarily if they can prove you ever used it,
but simple possession is punishable.
Let me ask you, do you think there's ever a situation
where a computer hacker should go to jail
or be imprisoned in any way?
Well, I'd have to say if there's really a truthful reason
that this person, possibly by some amazing chance,
is able to be judged by other hackers as being a menace,
then I think that person has more or less
given up his right to consider himself a hacker.
Do you think there's ever a case where somebody
could commit a crime or cause damage
without violating a law that already exists?
For instance, if a hacker were to take down
an entire computer system
and cause lots and lots of damage,
if he went in with a sledgehammer and did the same thing,
wouldn't the crime that covered that cover his...
I mean, why should the term hacking
be considered a crime in itself?
Well, they consider any crime that's been committed
with a computer to be perpetrated by a hacker.
It's this twisted age we live in,
thanks to the media and thanks to the government.
But that's just the nature of things.
Do I think that someone could commit some heinous crime
with a computer and not be charged with something?
If they are caught for doing something,
then obviously they're going to be charged with something.
I just don't understand why that's not enough,
why if somebody causes damage,
they can't be charged with causing damage,
and why we have to have this special thing
where if they use a computer, it's all the worse.
And that way you don't have to cause any damage
because you've already got that charge of using a computer,
so you have all these people that don't do any harm
that are being charged with crimes.
According to the stuff that me and my colleagues
are having to put up with in this case,
and I'm sure no doubt most any other case in the past,
is that the prosecution and the complainants,
whether they be phone companies
or anyone that claims to be the owner
of the so-called systems in question,
they claim that just by merely being there, it's damage.
And they claim that passwords cost money to change.
Now, I'm no stranger to Unix.
In fact, I've been a system administrator many a time,
so I could consider myself quite an expert at Unix,
and I do know that typing the password command
to change someone's password does not require any money,
much less use up any computer resources.
So I don't understand their mentality sometimes.
I think sometimes they just know that nothing was damaged,
so they have to think up a reason.
A lot of it is just come up with dollar figures.
Pure exaggeration, as was proven with the NIDORF 911 case,
how they were able to inflate figures
and make things worth money that are really not worth anything.
More importantly, how they're able to see things that aren't there.
The document in question was alleged to be a computer program,
whereas anyone with a set of eyes can read it
and see that it's in English,
although it's written in very poor bureaucratese.
Unfortunately, they took the media and law enforcement
for quite a ride there,
and we have little indication that much has changed.
And that wouldn't bother me so much,
but innocent people are being sent to prison,
people that are probably the worst people you could ever send to prison.
Their lives would be destroyed by having that happen to them,
and there's so much they can accomplish out here
of a constructive nature despite the misunderstandings
that people insist on embarking upon.
But let's hear from our listeners.
Our phone number is 212-279-3400.
The question we're asking is,
do you think hacking is a crime?
Do you think hacking is analogous to exploring?
And if so, why? If not, why not?
Good evening. You're on the air.
Hello. Last night they had a fellow on.
It wasn't a dated program. It was actual.
They were talking about the election machine at 34th Street,
and it kind of got my hackles up.
I don't know if it was an IBM machine,
but it was a gigantic computer, mainframe,
hard-language Cobalt or Fortran.
And this guy, really, he had everybody on the edge of his seat
because he had talked about conspiracy things
and about his time as a journalist in Florida
and as a pollster and as a person that got drawn into electioneering.
And then he started to say that elections could be fixed
and that his main thing was that he really had it in for the media.
He really had it in for NBC, ABC, CBS, The New York Times,
API, and Reuters, the whole gang.
But what I'm interested in is I'm wondering
if the human brain is going to be so unmatched
because something is such a sacrosanct symbol of society
and nobody questions it.
I'm glad people do wander around on people's golf courses
and get abstract and talk to people
that you don't have to do the nuts and bolts of everyday thing
and say, yeah, I'm along with your purpose.
You have a valid purpose to make this machine,
to collect votes and do your daily trudging
through this American dream that we're trying to get handles on.
Basically, I think what you're saying is
that it's wrong to blindly accept anything without questioning.
Right, exactly.
The big question always gets raised,
and these people always get thrown to the edge.
One way or another, it's a prison, isolation, alienation,
get them out of the country or monitor them.
Some people just seem to always have hard times
getting back in through customs.
And they're a person non grata.
Okay.
Well, I can certainly identify with that.
Thanks very much for your opinion.
212-279-3400.
Good evening. You're on the air.
Yes, I have a question.
Go ahead.
Yeah, hi. Let me turn off my radio.
I've been listening to your program for a while.
I don't really understand this business with these hackers.
I'm sort of new at this.
I don't understand why you feel these people
have a right to go into someone else's computer
and look around, whether they do damage or not.
Well, okay, let me first ask you,
do you think it's similar to exploring in real life?
Exploring, fine, but if you go on someone's private property,
you're subject to trespassing.
All right, would you send somebody to jail for five years
for walking across your front lawn?
No, no one goes to jail for five years.
I mean, the maximum penalties have no relation
to what someone would go to jail upon being convicted,
and that's really mean.
Well, I mean, we've had computer hackers
that have been fined $250,000
simply because they accessed a system
that didn't even have a password.
So I think there's a bit of hysteria going on.
Well, I think the hysteria is on your part.
What business do these people go in exploring?
I don't understand that.
Why do they feel they have a right to explore
just because they own a computer
and they can go in and look around
and see things that are none of their business
just for the sake of exploring?
If that's the case, they take the risk,
they know the penalties, and then they take their chances.
So you're saying exploring is wrong?
Exploring in private property is wrong, yes.
All right, would you, all I'm asking is,
would you translate that to the real world
as well as the computer world?
I don't understand.
Exploring what?
Exploring public property?
Fine.
Exploring a museum?
If somebody walks into an office building
that says this is private property
or this belongs to IBM,
do not come in here, and they do it anyway,
would you send them to jail?
Would you fine them a huge amount of money
the same way you would do that with computer people?
Again, the punishment is not up to someone.
It's up to a judge to decide.
I would say that they are breaking the law.
Whether they should go to jail for five years, no.
I think that would be excessive
if they didn't do any damage.
But I don't understand,
why do these people think they're above the law?
Well, I don't know if it's above the law so much
as people just have a natural tendency
to want to find things out,
to want to explore,
and if you've ever experienced it yourself,
you'd understand how curiosity can really motivate you.
And someone simply telling you,
don't do this is not...
What right do they have to go in there
where they're not supposed to go?
If they want to go in, why don't they write a letter?
I think part of the intrigue of this thing
is the risk of being caught
and the challenge of getting in
where they're not supposed to be.
If they were allowed to come in,
they probably would have no interest in it.
I just don't understand.
I think you know as well as I do,
they would never be given permission
to just go in and wander around.
A lot of what we learn about the phone company,
we learn through hackers
that tell us things about how the system works,
what is really going on.
The phone company does not really level with you
and tell you how things work.
For instance, if you were interested
in what kind of a phone switch you had in your neighborhood,
the phone company would never tell you that,
but we would be able to tell you
that it's a 5ESS or a Northern Telecom DMS-100
or something like that
because we've explored, we've looked around,
we've done research,
things that they do not want us to know
because they consider them trade secrets.
We consider it public information.
Why do you consider that public information?
I don't understand why that would be public information.
Well, I don't think it's up to me
to prove why it is public information.
I think it's up to the phone company
to prove why it has to be kept secret.
It's their property.
They purchased it,
and I don't see their information.
I don't consider my phone line to be their property.
I do not.
It sure is.
I mean, up until it enters your house,
it's their property.
I don't consider them owning everything.
I just don't think that's right.
Why do you not?
I mean, I don't have a problem with that.
I consider myself...
Well, I wouldn't have a problem with it so much
if I had any choice in the matter,
but the fact is,
you either have their property
or you have no property,
and I don't think that's...
I think the consumer, at the end,
has to have some say in it.
Telephone.
If you're not happy with that,
you don't have a telephone.
Right, you don't have a telephone.
Try existing without a telephone.
It sounds to me like they've really got you
in a good situation for them.
I just don't understand this.
It seems to me that you folks that do this stuff
are doing it for an adventure,
and if you don't...
And if you get caught, it's...
Well, now, how much more of a fine and penalty
would you give to somebody
that intentionally caused damage?
Well, again, then you're dealing with something
obviously more serious, and...
All right, my point is that
there's very little distinction these days.
The people that go in and simply look around
because they're curious
are treated the same way as somebody
that would go in and cause
millions of dollars' worth of damage.
And that's where I see a problem.
But I don't agree with you
that the penalties would be the same
for someone who just goes in and looks around
and someone who does massive destruction.
Well, I don't know...
At least for you, they are.
I don't know how many people you know
that are facing this.
I'm saying in actual reality.
Well, that's what we're dealing in.
I don't know what you're dealing in.
Have you gone to jail yet?
No, but I'm facing real charges
in reality, in the real world.
Okay, assuming you get convicted,
I would be willing to bet,
assuming you have no prior criminal record
and all that,
that you'll be given six months probation
and told not to do it again.
Perhaps you could tell that
to three teenagers in Georgia
who went to prison for ten months
and have to pay a quarter of a million dollars
for the rest of their life.
They did not cause damage?
No.
No, they simply went in.
There wasn't even a password on the system.
As far as I know,
there still isn't a password on that system.
Well, again, I don't know the facts of that case,
but I would bet that you're leaving out
something rather significant,
that maybe it's the 20th time
they were caught and convicted
and they refused to stop or they violated something.
Perhaps not, no.
No, okay.
I just feel that you guys are just doing something.
I mean, I don't believe that you have a right to explore
just because you think you have a right to explore
private property that belongs to other people.
I mean, I just see them.
No business in there.
And if you get caught, you know the rules.
You knew it was against the law
before you did it, I would imagine.
And you're taking your chance
and I don't see that you should cry about it
once you get caught.
Okay.
Listen, thanks for your opinion.
You're welcome.
Bye.
All right.
I think really what we're coming down to here
is a difference in what we consider exploring,
what we consider to be private property.
Again, look at the real world.
If you are on someone's private property,
and I'm talking about the vast majority of times
corporate private property,
not in somebody's house or anything like that.
I'm talking about walking inside a hospital or something
when visiting hours are over.
I'm talking about exploring a tunnel system
that looks kind of interesting
or going up onto a rooftop to see what's up there
or going into a boiler room
to see what all those strange sounds are.
It's, yeah, technically you're breaking a law of some sort,
but nobody in their right mind
would ever send you to prison for it.
So why does that logic suddenly disappear
when we deal with computers?
Why is it that if you log into a system,
all of a sudden everyone gets all poker-faced and serious
and says, oh, you've got to pay the penalty.
You've got to go to prison now
because you logged into something
and it's someone else's property.
I say if you cause damage,
then that is what you get charged with,
with causing damage, with doing something bad,
but simply going around and exploring
what is the difference?
What is the difference in cyberspace or in the real world?
That's what we're trying to deal with tonight.
Good evening. You're on the air.
Yeah, hi, Manuel.
First of all, you should have cut that guy off
halfway in the middle.
No, I don't believe in cutting people off
just because I don't agree with them.
Well, you should have politely asked him to leave.
Yeah, I work in the court system.
I'll go that far,
and I'll also say I live within 30 miles of New York,
but I'm also an explorer,
although I basically only use my computer
for word processing.
I explore lands all around New York State,
and you'd be interested in knowing
that a lot of the watershed for New York City,
you're not allowed to trespass on it,
but this is what they say,
no trespassing without permit.
That's an interesting phrase.
If you're a fisherman,
if you have a fishing license,
you are hereby licensed by the state of New York
for $16 a year
to go onto this beautiful reservoir land,
throw beer cans all over,
kill fish,
and leave your wrappings from all your hooks and stuff.
However, if you walk onto the property,
technically, let me put it to you this way.
I've been going on this property every summer
for at least 12 weeks,
from the beginning of May until the middle of October.
In 10 years, I've been stopped twice, told to leave.
Once, I don't know why they didn't do anything.
The second time, I had my 3-year-old with me,
and we were skinny dipping.
So I guess I just said,
why don't you make those handcuffs?
But I will say that you guys are really playing with fire
because, see, I'm familiar with the court system,
and the problem is that judges are very isolated,
and they really don't know
what the hell they're enforcing most of the time.
I mean, they know what it is to get your car stolen,
and they know what it is to...
They're people,
but they're basically people who are buried in the books,
and a lot of them don't know how to operate computers yet,
and they really have no concept of what's going on,
and unfortunately,
these are the people who rule on a lot of these cases.
Well, that's a very good point,
and that's precisely my point,
is that these judges are so far removed from everything.
Now, do we simply change everything about our society
to suit people that know nothing about it,
or do we try to reach them somehow
and get them to see what's really going on?
I really don't know what you can do
because I'm not a hacker,
but I will say that if you look at how people who love firearms
have learned to cope with their urge to shoot at things,
and I'm one of them,
although I'm a vegetarian hunter.
I mean, I love to shoot stuff,
so I go 200 miles upstate,
and I put some cans on some property
that someone in my family owns,
and I shoot the cans, you know?
However, if I were to do that...
Now, granted, it's completely different than hacking,
but there are coping mechanisms,
and I don't know why you guys haven't purchased
some obsolete mainframe
and, you know, why don't you all get together
and chip in a thousand bucks each,
maybe a hundred of you,
purchase something and really have a challenge
because it's a hell of a lot cheaper
than it is to pay lawyers, believe me,
and bail.
Well, then we can stop all those mountain climbers
from going on all those unauthorized mountains
and keep them all on one mountain in one place, right?
Understand, judges know what mountains are,
and judges know what trees are,
and they know that you really can't see
a no trespassing sign in the dark.
Well, I'm impressed with their knowledge, then,
but that doesn't make them capable.
They have really, most of them, no idea.
And I'm someone who uses a computer.
I really have no idea
how to break into someone else's system.
I mean, I'm not even hooked up to a network.
So you're really kind of like...
Remember, they just absolved Galileo.
I think it was last...
Well, that was the Vatican.
Yeah, that kind of stuff.
What I'm saying is you're really not dealing
with a very different kind of hierarchy.
I mean, these people are working out of ignorance
in a lot of cases.
Well, the difference is only a select few
can infiltrate the Vatican.
Anybody can infiltrate the court system
and start changing things from the bottom up.
I work in the court system.
Yeah, and I think you're a prime person
to actually start educating people.
Everybody has to feed their family,
and I will say that, you know,
I've seen a lot of injustice done,
but you're really not going to help yourselves
by getting arrested and prosecuted
because it's very arcane to the average person,
and they just think this person is an intellectual freak,
and I really...
It really doesn't pique their curiosity
the same way as violence does,
and they're not going to do diddly about it.
Well, you see, I don't think it's anybody's intention
to go out and get arrested.
I do think people, when they have the urge
to explore and learn things,
it's very hard to just turn that off
or channel that into a quote-unquote
acceptable manner.
Agree, but you've got to protect yourself
just as you would an interpersonal contact
the way I protect myself.
If I were to...
Now that I know from listening to your show
that I know about call identification,
I used to always call up, you know,
people in the government, politicians,
and give them very...
You know, I'd give them my point of view
or I'd call up a company.
Now that I know about that,
I'm just going to go to the phone booth
across the street.
I mean, you've got to...
You know, I'm not putting you guys down,
but I think there's a lot of geniuses out there
because I know some programmers,
but the problem is, like in any business
or in any kind of profession,
you may be very good at the profession,
but you may not be very good at business
or at keeping yourself out of trouble,
and I think that you really have to get together
and cope with this
because you're not going to beat the system, I mean.
Now you know what it feels like
to be a poor black person
who got caught drinking a beer, basically.
Yeah, it's an interesting analogy.
Okay, thanks for calling.
Yeah, well, I've felt like a poor black person
drinking a beer on a number of occasions,
but I don't know.
I just think we have to start looking
at the real problem.
I mean, if AT&T can constantly be broken into
by computer hackers
over and over and over again,
obviously they've got a problem.
Obviously there's something wrong with them.
They don't know what they are doing,
and we should be asking a question
as to what precisely is their problem,
and how can we get it fixed?
How can we maybe replace them
with some people that know what they're doing?
Maybe the people that keep getting in.
They know what they're doing more,
and I would bet that a system
that was designed by a hacker
would be rather impenetrable,
since they tend to know many of the tricks.
Good evening.
Yeah, all your rationalizations for doing this
really don't hold water at all, man.
They're really insulting to the intelligence.
The reason...
Your latest rationalization,
they make it too easy to get in
because they want to have maximum facility
with their computer system.
Of course, they could make it more difficult.
It's your business to stay out.
Where you're not supposed to be,
and where you know you're not supposed to be.
And as for exploring, that's, again, ridiculous.
You're not supposed to be there.
You can't say, let's explore,
justify going where you're not supposed to be
as exploring.
What if I went into your personal life?
What if I went into your home
and started exploring?
Again, we never include homes
in this particular thing.
This has nothing to do with individuals.
This has to do with places
where lots and lots of people are
and where they simply say,
you cannot be one of these people.
Things like golf courses, shopping malls,
industrial parks, that kind of thing.
A trespass on a private golf course,
which could be a criminal trespass,
punishable by a year in prison.
You'd send somebody to jail for a year
for walking on a golf course.
Well, it's a criminal trespass in the third degree.
But, okay, as long as you say you would do that,
I will accept that.
You have to say that.
There are criminal penalties for trespass.
Uh-huh, there certainly are.
And either we apply them across the board,
or we don't.
There's a much more serious nature.
Because you could be interrupting
or inadvertently damage...
Could be.
The operative words are could be.
You could be planting landmines
on a golf course.
You could be doing anything.
You see?
Your comparison to a golf course
is ridiculous and designed to oppress
someone who knows nothing about computers.
Why is it ridiculous?
How is it different?
Because...
You know it's different,
and I know it's different,
and I'll explain why it's different
because you insist.
Because simply walking...
All you'd be doing on a golf course
is the nature of a criminal trespass on land
or...
and the traditions behind that.
Breaking into a computer system
could cause millions of dollars worth of damage.
You could even be...
You could even be getting into a hospital.
Sir, if I wanted to,
I could go many places tonight
and cause millions of dollars worth of damage
to golf courses all over this fine state of ours.
It's quite possible to do.
But not by...
I mean...
But you're not...
You're not a...
I don't think you could do millions of dollars
worth of damage to a golf course.
Oh, I hope that's not a challenge
because I could.
There's many things you can do.
How would you do millions of dollars worth of damage?
Well, you'd start with a clubhouse, okay?
There's plenty of items of value in the clubhouse
that you could just simply destroy.
A good fire on a golf course
that would put it out of commission for a year
would be enough.
Where's the fire?
Adding a few extra holes here and there.
But then you're dealing with...
Now you're dealing with a crime of a different sort,
with a crime of arson.
There's certain things you can spread
that kills grass, too,
or plant weeds all over the place.
The mere presence of the computer system
is itself a threat.
Or you drop, you know, some poison in the water
and all the fish die,
and anybody that goes in after their balls.
You know, I mean,
it depends on what you want to do.
Arson is absurd.
Well, you know, a lot of this is absurd, sir.
That's my point.
You're absurd.
No.
This...
You're meaning AT&T?
No, AT&T is not absurd.
AT&T is correct.
You're absurd.
Okay, well, thanks very much for that conclusion.
I do appreciate it.
Let's take one more phone call.
Good evening.
Yeah, hi.
How you doing?
Fine.
You've got to make it quick.
We have less than a minute.
Okay.
And don't listen to my voice in delay, so go ahead.
Not for my radio. Hang on.
Okay.
Yeah, I was just thinking
sort of philosophically about the issues
that you've raised in the past
about not wanting personal...
one's personal privacy to be invaded,
like the caller ID type thing.
Mm-hmm.
And at the same time,
you're saying that you want
maximum amount of access
to other people's
or other institutions' computers.
No, that's not what we're saying.
We're not saying that we want people
to open their doors and let everybody in.
We're saying on those chance occasions
when you happen to wander into something
you don't belong in,
that it not be treated like some major crime.
But isn't part of what you're saying
that you want people to be able
to freely have access?
For example, you're talking about you didn't...
I think that you're disagreeing
that having access to computers
shouldn't be a crime, right?
Mm-hmm.
And so what you're saying is
that you want there to be more access
for people who are quote-unquote hackers.
And yet at the same time,
you're saying that it's potentially
an invasion of one's own privacy
to have, let's say, AT&T control
when somebody's going to know
what my phone number is or something.
I mean, I'm just looking at it like...
I think just the nature of computers
and information in that realm
is that it's out there
and it sort of invades everybody's privacy.
And that's why the guy who was calling before
was saying things about, you know,
private property is very sacred
and people shouldn't feel free to just...
Yes, I see what you're saying,
but I think it's wrong to just assume
that because you say something is private
that it's going to remain private.
It would be wrong for us to assume
that our phone numbers will remain private
because we want them to be unlisted.
It would be wrong for a company
to assume that because they say
don't trespass or have a password
that their systems are safe.
Yeah, but I mean, I feel troubled
as a private citizen, for example,
that every time I make a phone call,
whoever's going to know my call
or that by virtue of having a bank card,
some credit company is going to know
everything about my personal financial history.
I mean, I think that there's a lot
of really negative implications
about how widespread
and accessible information is through computers.
I think that it is a negative invasion
of personal privacy,
and I'm just sort of paralleling that
with the fact that at the same time
Well, okay, I'm afraid we're out of time,
but I just want to close by saying
that the difference is that
with computer hackers,
they're doing it for the reason
of learning, exploring.
Companies do it for the reason of profit
and to make money off whatever invasions there are.
It's a fascinating topic.
I do want to get into it more,
but unfortunately, we are out of time.
This has been Off the Hook.
We're back again next week,
and we'll probably be talking about the same thing.
In the meantime, we'd like to get cards
and letters from people on this subject
because it is a controversial one.
Our address is Off the Hook,
care of WBAI 505 8th Avenue, New York, New York, 10018.
This is Emanuel Goldstein.
Thanks to FiberOptic for coming in
and enduring all this.
We'll see you next week.
Stay tuned for The Computer Show.
Good night.
The Computer Show
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This is Bill Canaday,
inviting you to listen to that old-time religion.