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The program is Off the Hook, where we talk about high tech and low intelligence
and the dramatic combinations that the two of them can make.
We've got a very interesting story emanating out of Washington, D.C. tonight.
You might even call it a scandal.
Yeah.
Stay with us, because you'll find out things that might wake you up a little bit,
might frighten you, might annoy you.
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Thank you.
The suspicion, based on some very good evidence, that the Secret Service planned the whole thing.
Now, first what we're going to do is talk to somebody who was there, a hacker known as Inhuman, down in Washington, D.C.
We're also going to be talking to Mike Godwin of the Electronic Frontier Foundation,
and Brock Meeks, a reporter for Communications Daily, which is an industry publication for the communications world.
And first, we have Inhuman from Washington, D.C. Can you hear me?
Yes.
Okay, you were there when all of the nasty business started happening.
First of all, the meeting happens every Friday at the Pentagon City Mall, is that correct?
That's right.
And it's just a regular shopping mall, nothing really to do with the Pentagon.
Can you describe basically what happened?
Well, I wasn't there from the very beginning of the meeting.
I sort of came in in the middle of it, but I've talked to a lot of people,
and I think I've compiled a fairly well-corroborated story at this point of everything that happened.
So, the meeting started as usual around 5 o'clock.
It takes place roughly on the food court area, which is just sort of a wide-open eating space.
And by about 6 o'clock, there were maybe 30 people there, not really in one big group,
just sort of broken up into smaller groups in roughly the same area, eating, talking,
sort of showing each other little electronic gizmos and other interesting things.
At around 6 o'clock, I was exactly at 6 o'clock, a group of mall security people started moving towards the group.
At this point, some eagle-eyed people sort of split, and others remained, having not done anything wrong.
Mall security surrounded the entire area and started asking questions.
Their initial line of questioning seemed to involve a stun gun, which they claimed to have seen.
No one on the meeting had a stun gun, to my knowledge, to anyone's knowledge.
So, they proceeded to question various people as to the whereabouts of the stun gun,
started searching bags, using a fair amount of intimidation in achieving.
What intimidation did you hear about?
Well, there were, I'm not sure if in the searches there were threats of arrest,
but there were certainly threats of, you know, if you don't let us search our bags,
we're just going to have the Arlington County cops search them for you.
So, you may as well just cooperate with us now, it'll be easier.
That type of thing.
Later on, there were threats made of arrests in other instances, but I'll get to that.
So, they started searching bags.
Soon, they found a device, the Whisper 2000, which is a small listening device.
It looks sort of like a speaker, a small speaker, which they apparently thought was a stun gun.
They asked whose it was.
Someone claimed it, explained what it was, which one would think would end the search.
But they sort of continued without reason to search, started taking names and phone numbers, asking for IDs at this point.
And they would write down this information?
Yeah, they were compiling a list.
About how many security guards were there?
There were roughly about seven, I would guess.
It's sort of hard to make an exact count, since they're all dressed differently.
Some of them, I think, were undercover sort of mall security people who were intended to mingle in stores and catch shop lookers and so on.
But roughly seven, six, around there.
So, they started searching bags.
At one point, they found a magnetic stripe reader in someone's bag, just a device that reads magnetic strips, like on a credit card or a fare card for DC Metro.
In fact, I believe we published plans on how to build one of those a few issues ago.
That's right.
At this point, they seemed to sort of freak out on the signing of the card reader.
And they apparently called the Arlington County cops at this point.
And the call was made in on the radio.
And they confiscated the entire bag that had the mag stripe reader in it.
They also seemed to become more liberal in confiscating things at that point.
They confiscated someone else's bag that had just school books in it.
It had some manuals for operating systems, actually, MS.
Now, I had heard that people were prevented from leaving, and they had to stay and submit to a search, even though they weren't being arrested or charged with anything.
That's right.
I guess about the point they found the mag stripe reader, they detained the entire meeting, wouldn't let anyone come or go.
At one point, I recently talked with someone who said that at one point they asked if they had done anything wrong, why they were being held.
And one of the security guards responded, I think it's called guilt by association.
And that was his statement, whose association, it's not clear, but that's what he said.
So they continued to search people, take IDs.
One person started writing down the names of the officers involved, I mean, the security people involved, just for a reference point afterwards.
And the head of security, Al Johnson, came over, took the list, and his pen out of his hands tore up the list and kept it.
Another person was taking pictures of the whole proceedings, and the security guard came up to him, took the camera out of his hand without asking, and took the film out.
Incidentally, the security guards denied to have done both of those things.
They also denied to have confiscated anything, per se.
They claimed that everything that was in their possession now was taken into possession because people refused to claim it, and they just took it as lost and put it in the lost and found.
They're actually saying that, that all the things that they seized, they found.
According to the news bites by John McMullen, that's what they said.
That's a quote from the head of security, Al Johnson.
So how did it all end?
Well, after about 45 minutes of detainment, they told everyone they had to leave the mall.
A lot of people protested since they hadn't done anything wrong to begin with.
People asked when they could get their stuff back.
They just pretty much avoided all questions and said, if you don't leave the mall now, you'll be arrested for trespassing.
This is private property.
So everyone just sort of left the mall to this little access tunnel to the subway.
Outside, we all regrouped there, sort of tried to get our bearings to figure out what was happening.
At that point, we went upstairs, called the New York 2600 meeting.
While I was on the phone with you in New York, the security guards came.
We were outside at this point, outside the mall.
The security guards came outside, and there was another person with the camera there who started taking pictures.
At that point, the security guards came up to him and demanded his film.
But he's still in possession of the film, and I don't think the pictures have been developed.
And they were very belligerent throughout the entire thing, very unprofessional, often using profanity and just general sort of unprofessionalness.
The Arlington County cops are proud to say showed up, I guess, about 6.30 at the meeting.
And people who refused to submit to searches or to give up their IDs were referred to the Arlington County police,
who came over and demanded their IDs, which I think is legitimate in Virginia.
You have to produce an ID for a police officer.
Now, at what point was there mention of the Secret Service?
There was apparently one person who refused, his name is Lithium Bandit, who refused to give his ID to the mall security.
When the Arlington County police showed up, they asked for his ID, and he grudgingly turned it over.
And then he asked them, you know, why all this information was being compiled, whether they were starting a file on it or what.
And they said they were working on behalf of the Secret Service, which was certainly the most interesting comment of the whole night.
Now, Brock Meeks is a reporter for Communications Daily, and he had occasion to talk to Al Johnson, the head of security, down there at the Pentagon City Mall.
And what he found out from Al Johnson has resulted in a scandal in the computer world that is going on at this very moment.
And, Brock, you're on the line with us.
Why don't you tell us what transpired?
Well, it was very interesting when I got word of the whole incident on Sunday night
and messages started being uploaded to the well, a computer conversing system out in California.
And I was trolling that, looking for interesting stuff, and found this.
And somebody had put Al Johnson's name into the conference with a phone number.
And so the first thing Monday morning when I got to work, I went ahead and called Al Johnson.
It was about, I guess, 945.
And Johnson got on the phone, and I started asking him questions about some of the actions of his security guards
that were under his control and about breaking up a meeting of some hackers.
And he at first said that he didn't know what I was talking about
and that he didn't know about breaking up any meeting and so forth.
And so I just continued to press him with details that had already been corroborated by several people.
And then, sounding kind of irritated, he told me that his security guards and their involvement was only minimal
and that the whole thing was, you know, quote, a Secret Service FBI, they ramrodded this whole thing.
And so several times during the conversation he kept telling me,
Listen, I can't talk to you on the phone.
Listen, I can't talk to you on the phone.
This is all Secret Service.
Call them.
And so he said that the Secret Service working undercover and so forth.
I asked him if his men were working directly under the guidance of the Secret Service.
And at that time he said, Look, I really can't talk to you.
Just call the Secret Service.
They can tell you about it.
It's their operation and so forth.
And at times he sounded confused.
At one point when he asked me point blank, he said, Well, listen, he goes,
How did you hear about this anyway?
Often he would cut himself off in the middle of a conversation to kind of verbally backspace
and then go forward again.
And so when he did this, he pulled this verbal backspace maneuver and pulled up short
and asked me where I'd gotten the information.
I told him off of a computer bulletin board.
I didn't think that I should launch into, it was at the well in computer conferencing.
I didn't think he would understand.
And so then when I told him it was a computer bulletin board and stuff,
he just was silent for a couple of seconds and then he actually just kind of laughed.
Like, I don't believe this is happening.
And then he told me to call the Secret Service.
And at one point, early in the interview, he said, Look, I won't talk to you on the phone.
You have to come down here.
So halfway through the interview when he was visibly shaken, or I mean audibly shaken,
I said, Listen, Al, if I come down there, will you talk to me?
And then he just said, No, I don't talk to the press.
And the smart-ass answer that was going through my head was, Well, I wonder how many times
the director of mall security has an occasion to talk to the press.
It's not like something happens every day and you've got people from the Washington Post
calling the director of mall security.
So, I mean, his whole demeanor and his whole attitude towards me in the whole incident
was very shaky.
It was obvious that he was uncomfortable with what was happening and he had never expected
a phone call.
Now, what happened when you talked to the Secret Service?
Well, the Secret Service, the first thing that I asked the Secret Service was, I told him
that I had talked to the director of mall security and he told me that the Secret Service was
involved, there was a long silence and they said, Well, listen, we'll have to get back
to you, which they always have to do once they figure out what the spin is going to be when
they talk to a reporter.
So, they called me back, I guess, two hours later.
So, we're now creeping into the early afternoon.
They called me back two hours later and they said, Well, the story is that we can't comment
on any ongoing investigations.
At that point, I said, Okay, so we're talking about a formal investigation.
And they came back and said, Well, we can't comment on any current or pending investigations.
And I said, Okay, I understand.
Then can you comment on what Mr. Johnson said about Secret Service involvement?
And they didn't answer my question.
They just said, Well, how did you hear about this?
Once again, I told them.
And as I began to describe to them what the well was, Agent Dave Adams, who was kind of
a spokesman, asked me to interrupt myself.
He said, Can you hold it for a minute?
And I said, Sure.
At which point, he put me on a speakerphone.
And it was quite obvious.
You can always tell that kind of echoey reverb speakerphone.
And he said, Okay, go ahead.
And before I went ahead, I said, Well, before I begin talking to you, please tell me who
else in the room that I'm talking to.
And so two other, he said there were two other agents there.
And one of the agents, Mr. identified himself as Bill Clancy, agent in charge of, quote,
that area, of this area.
Did he mean that geographical area or that particular area of crime?
Well, I think he meant that particular area, that particular geographic area or that area
of crime, I'm not sure, because I was calling the field office.
Anyway, they said, Well, listen, since you know so much about this, why don't you give
us some information?
Or would you be willing to share with us any information?
And I said, I can't tell you anything about what I've learned.
I said, I just started, you know, I've talked to some of the kids.
And they said, Well, what are their names?
Can you give us their names?
And I said, Well, everybody spoke to me in confidence.
Of course, I can't give you any names.
They said, Well, what else do you know about this whole hacker thing?
And I said, Look, if you want to bring me down to your offices and open your case files,
I'm sure I could, you know, we could chat a little bit.
I said, I can't divulge anything that's been told to me in confidence.
But if you want to speak to me in general, at that point, they just cut me off again.
And they said, Well, look, okay, it's been very nice talking to you.
If anything else, this is the crucial part.
They said, If anything else on this investigation develops, we'll give you a call.
Which right then told me that, yes, indeed, there was an official investigation.
So they actually tried to pump you for information when you tried to ask questions of them.
Oh, yes.
Yeah, they tried to.
This is not uncommon for the Secret Service to do or the FBI.
Even with the press.
Right, even with the press.
Unfortunately, there's a lot of, no, sometimes guys in the press are so eager to think they're going to get a scoop.
They go ahead and they cooperate with the FBI or the Secret Service.
And they don't know that what they're doing is ultimately being compromised themselves.
Now, as a postscript to your story, it should be noted that Al Johnson, the head of security at Pentagon City Mall, is now denying that he said any of what he said to you.
Well, this is very interesting because Al Johnson didn't know that he was being taped, which is, of course, what was well within my legal rights to do this.
But I taped Al Johnson, and I have him all on tape, and I believe I've played the tape for you and several other people, and you've heard Mr. Johnson hang himself on the tape.
And now I just read in another news account that he has threatened to arrest me, and I think I'll go down and talk to Mr. Johnson tomorrow in person just to confront him on this.
I mean, I don't know if that's going to do any good, but, you know, at least I have the tape.
I've let other people hear it, so now we go from here.
All right, Mike Godwin is a lawyer for the Electronic Frontier Foundation.
Mike, what are the implications of what you're hearing here?
Well, I think it's important to find out to what extent the mall police were acting under the direction of the Secret Service,
because if they were acting under the direction of the Secret Service as part of an investigation,
that raises serious constitutional issues and issues about due process and the protection of individual rights.
You see, even though a mall may qualify as a private space, and even though under normal circumstances
is the agents of the owner of the mall, which is to say the mall police would have a perfect right to break up a group
or to send somebody out of the mall or to do anything like that, and it wouldn't raise any constitutional issue at all.
When any individual, whether they're mall police or even just a private individual,
or is acting as an agent, acting on the behalf of the government,
they become, for that purpose, an agent of the government.
And in fact, they cannot violate your constitutional rights.
They're not allowed to do it.
So it looks to me, I mean, from the description, from the many descriptions that I've read,
and also from the tape, which I've heard, and which I hope Brock plays for you,
that there's a real possibility that the Secret Service hoped to disguise their presence
by having these mall police act on their behalf.
I think there's a real possibility that they hoped that whatever abuses of constitutional protections
against unreasonable search and seizure and whatever protections there are against false arrest
or false imprisonment were things that would not apply to the Secret Service
because they had these mall police do their detentions for them.
I think there's a real possibility that there's a serious connection here.
I mean, I called up Brock when he posted on the well that he had taped the conversation
and would let people hear it because I wanted to hear it myself.
And what I heard convinced me that the Secret Service was involved for a couple of reasons.
First of all, not many people who aren't interested in this particular field
even know that the Secret Service has anything to do with your crime.
Even mall security is not...
You can't count on mall security chiefs to be particularly knowledgeable
about this computer crime jurisdiction of the Secret Service.
So how did he know?
And you add that to the fact that people heard mention of the Secret Service
while this was going on as well.
That's right.
And I think that taken together with what Brock heard from the Secret Service office itself
strongly suggests that they're up to something.
I mean, I don't think we can say with any assurance what they're up to.
But I think they're involved in this incident.
I'm convinced.
Well, does it surprise you to see these methods actually being used by them?
Well, no.
I have to say...
Unfortunately, it doesn't surprise me.
The problem is that there are constitutional protections
against unreasonable search and seizure and so on.
But the remedies for abuses are fairly limited.
You can't sue people, but that's usually a fairly expensive proposition.
If you're a defendant, you may be able to exclude illegally seized evidence.
But none of these people are defendants yet.
And they've had some property seized, but I think that whoever's holding the property now
can act with a certain amount of impunity because it's small enough
that not too many people are going to call their lawyer
and begin formal proceedings to get a return.
Well, there is a definite sense of outrage coming from Washington, D.C., from the hackers there.
Perhaps Inhuman can fill us in on...
Actually, I should point out that we are using handles here
because people are comfortable using their computer handles.
It might sound kind of crazy to say names like Night Lightning and Inhuman and things like that.
But you have to understand, in the computer world, we're completely used to it.
It's our given names.
And so I'd like to ask Inhuman what the general mood has been since this happened on Friday.
Well, the general mood has definitely been outrage, simply.
I mean, most of the D.C. hacker community, you might say, was at the meetings.
So, I mean, it's sort of a shared sense of violation.
The ones who weren't there and the ones, you know, the news has spread across the nation pretty quickly
and certainly share our outrage is also a sense of violation.
And there's definitely a lot of talk of legal pursuit of this from our standpoint.
But, you know, since most of the people who are involved are high school or college students,
where the money would come from for that legal counsel is a definite consideration at this point.
But everyone is pretty outraged and seems to be unified against the mall security, at least.
I mean, the Secret Service adds a very interesting twist to it.
I'm not really sure whether our rights are more violated by their involvement
or simply by the mall security's harassment.
I mean, up to this point, we're still a little bit unclear about the specific legality of some of their charges,
such as the legality of taking someone's picture without their permission.
We're not clear on that.
In addition to...
It's perfectly legal.
Perfectly legal.
Sure.
There's a simple cause of action for taking somebody's picture and using it commercially.
But, you know, if somebody's on the street, you can take their picture.
You can do it.
It's legal.
And if somebody's working as an officer of the law, in whatever regards,
is there anything illegal there?
Not to my knowledge.
Not to my knowledge.
I mean, I can't speak with authority about what the relevant law in D.C. is on this,
but it seems unlikely.
I mean, news organizations have for decades routinely taken pictures of police officers
and other law enforcement agents in the exercise of their duties.
And it's always been understood that that activity was legal.
I suppose writing down someone's name is also legal.
However, in that particular case, the paper was taken away and ripped to pieces.
That's entirely...
Yeah, there certainly was nothing even remotely illegal about writing down someone's name.
In fact, you should just assume, I mean, you know, whenever an activity smacks of freedom of expression
or freedom of inquiry, you should just assume, you know,
the default setting is that it's protected by the First Amendment.
And there's only some very narrow exceptions in which that activity is not protected by the First Amendment.
And this isn't one of those exceptions.
Well, now, one thing that I know is confusing people is this conception of a mall as private property.
Now, what exactly does that mean?
Does that mean they can just say, no, you can't come into this mall for no particular reason?
We don't have to tell you why.
What can they not do with that definition?
Well, it's a fairly complicated area of the law that varies to some extent from state to state.
It turns out that there is no general, you know, national freedom of speech right with regard to shopping malls.
But some states have regarded, have said that their particular state constitutions classify shopping malls as public forums for some purposes.
But I think it's fair to say that in this case, you know, they probably have some justice in saying that it qualifies as private property.
I mean, just as a store owner has the right to eject someone from his or her commercial premises, you know, the mall owner can do that, too.
But, you know, the mall owner certainly doesn't have the right to detain you.
Doesn't there have to be some reason for ejection as well, some violation of the mall rules or something like that?
I mean, he can't just arbitrarily eject certain people that he doesn't like the looks of, can he?
No, I actually think he can, but I can't speak with authority on that particular nuance.
I mean, these are people that are, in fact, customers of the mall.
They buy things, they buy food in the food court, yet just because, you know, of who they are.
And it sounds like a clear-cut First Amendment issue here, even though it is on private property.
Right, well, the thing is, if it's private property and private agents, there's no First Amendment issue at all.
Because the First Amendment is a restriction against government action.
So that's why the question of whether this was really initiated by the Secret Service or by some other federal agency or by any government agency is so critical.
Because that is, you know, once you resolve that issue and if you discover that this really is the product of government action and government initiative,
the First Amendment does play a role.
You know, one of the things that nobody has done yet, and I was kind of being tongue-in-cheek when I said I was going to go down and confront Al Johnson
because, you know, I've called him several times now, and every time he hears my name, he's not taking my phone calls.
But I fully plan on going to the owners of the mall or whoever it is that is the mall administrator,
the guy that hires Al Johnson and signs his check, and take the tape with me and ask the mall manager, whoever that might be,
if they were aware that the Secret Service was hanging around in their mall, you know, in a surveillance-type activity,
and just find out, you know, where from the owner's standpoint what kind of stuff is going on.
Because I don't think that has been addressed yet.
That's a very good suggestion, actually.
Go right to the owner, the people that, you know, that get the money that the customers spend,
the people that feel the brunt of bad publicity.
I'd certainly like to hear their previous story with you also.
Well, see, this is going to be, you know, that whole money angle is good because, like you say,
I mean, these, the meeting that was broken up, the kids were just customers.
And if the mall, Pentagon City Mall is huge, and it's very upscale.
It's got, you know, upscale stores in it.
People drop a lot of coin in that place.
And if the regular citizens find out all of a sudden that there are Secret Service agents hanging around,
surveilling people, you know, they might think twice about going there.
And I think that the mall, the owners or the administrator, whatever you call them, manager,
is going to be a lot more forthcoming.
I mean, he's going to have to go on the record with something,
especially if, when he listens to his own mall security director say that, you know,
he was just acting because the Secret Service was ramrodding the whole thing.
Now, let me ask Inhumans something, speaking of regular, normal people,
was there much response from regular people in the mall?
Were they watching this going on?
Well, I mean, it's sort of hard not to notice a group of security people
surrounding a certain section of the food court.
I mean, there are certainly people sort of stopping and staring.
Apparently, some waves of those are surely a very embarrassing thing to be seen being detained like that.
I mean, I'm sure many people probably assumed a large group of teenagers being detained by security
must involve shoplifting or something like that,
since that's probably the most common offense involving security in teenagers in a mall.
So, yeah, I mean, there are definitely people watching, staring, and so on there.
Apparently, anyone who came too close was questioned by the security as being part of the group.
And some, you know, sort of innocent bystanders were drawn in temporarily
until they explained that they weren't part of the group.
Well, actually, you were all innocent bystanders.
Yeah, that's true.
But let me ask, Brock, a variation of the same question in regards to your story.
When the story came out yesterday,
has there been much reaction from people outside of this particular community,
and what is that reaction?
No, the reaction, I mean, I haven't gotten very much reaction
except for people inside the computer industry.
I really expected some people from the daily newspaper press to get a hold of me
to try and find out what the story was because we have, I mean, this is tailor-made for the newspapers
because now once I broke the story and got Johnson on the record,
now that he recants everything,
there are several other statements that have come out that make this, you know,
very interesting for not only the papers but the local television people
that can roll in there with video cameras and stuff.
It's the fact that, you know, Johnson also mentioned that the FBI was involved
and to my knowledge nobody has gotten the FBI to go on record with anything
other than the fact that they weren't there.
You know, I called the FBI, and the FBI said categorically,
no, we never had any kind of operation there.
And that's, when I was talking to the FBI guy, agent,
I said that, you know, I know that these guys are not paragons of truth and so forth,
but what's important is that the FBI just came out and gave a flat denial.
No, we weren't there.
Instead of doing the non-denial denial thing,
which was made so popular during the Watergate era where they say,
well, we can't comment on that one way or the other.
We can't confirm nor deny, which is what the Secret Service told somebody else.
So I think that's very important.
They just came right out and said, no, we didn't have it there.
And I believe them.
I don't think that the FBI was there.
However, I have Johnson on the record saying that the Secret Service and the FBI was there.
So, you know, all of a sudden you've got, you know,
just one more piece of the puzzle that's a mystery.
Well, I'm not sure that, as I recall the conversation,
I'm not sure that he says that the FBI was there.
I think he said, you know, shh, go ask the FBI.
Or he said that they were ramrodding it along with the Secret Service.
But, of course, you've heard it many times, and I've only heard the tape.
He said the Secret Service, the FBI, everybody was here.
Oh, that's right, that's right.
I do recall that line now that you mentioned it.
And as far as everybody being there,
those meetings have only been going on in Washington, D.C. now for a few months.
But in the course of that period, correct me if I'm wrong and human,
there have been many different spooks showing up at these things.
In fact, someone told me that somebody wearing a Secret Service shirt was there
only a couple of months ago.
Is that true?
Yeah, about two, maybe three months ago,
there were actually a group of people all wearing Secret Service shirts.
I mean, it's the most bizarre thing I've ever seen
because you wouldn't really expect Secret Service people
to be displaying that to the world.
But there were two groups of parent Secret Service people,
one wearing blue shirts at the Secret Service,
one wearing red shirts at the Secret Service in the corner.
And one of the meeting goers went up and talked to him.
I forget exactly what he asked him,
but as soon as he asked him what he was doing here,
the Secret Service member sort of ignored his question
and turned around and started asking him about telephone fraud devices,
which didn't seem like standard operating procedure for the Secret Service
to be that blatant about their presence.
As for other people present,
I mean, it's always sort of a game to spot the Fed at 2,600 meetings.
I mean, you always look for people in suits and sunglasses,
and anyone taking a picture is immediately assumed to be one.
But I'm sure 90% of the people there, if not more,
are not Fed than the ones that we think are.
And there are plenty of people in suits there.
It's right next to a huge NCI office building, rather ironically.
I think it's fair to say that those people whose names and IDs were taken
are probably at greater risk of being searched as part of this
or any other investigation.
The game of finding the feds is something that's pretty common
throughout 2,600 meetings throughout the country.
At CityCorps in New York City, it's gotten boring.
In fact, there's so many suspicious people wandering around.
And, you know, the mood is very jovial at these meetings
because the people aren't really trying to hide.
They're out there in the open,
and usually it's the agents of various law enforcement groups
that are trying to blend into the woodwork.
The difference that I can see in New York is that the security people here
treat us with a great deal of respect, and it's a mutual thing.
You know, people don't try and throw us out because there's no reason to
and we're not causing any harm.
And that's why it's shocking to see this happen in Washington, D.C.
I want to give people the opportunity to give out information so that if there are other people listening
that can get this story to other media sources or perhaps other media sources are listening,
they'll have a way of getting a hold of either you or other organizations that can spread information.
I'll start with those of you out there that want the hacker perspective.
You can, through the Internet, contact us at 2600-2600 at well.sf.ca.us.
Those of you on the Internet will know what all those letters and dots mean.
And I should say at this point that the well has been a fantastic service as far as getting this story out.
I don't think we could have ever gotten the story out were it not for that public access Unix system
out there in Sausalito, California.
And I encourage people to check that system out, to check out the Internet in general.
I believe you can reach the well modem line at area code 415-332-6106.
I don't have a voice number for them, but I'm sure they're listed in information.
But it's definitely worthwhile to get in touch with the Internet community with what's going on.
And this story was broken in a matter of hours because of the speed of the Internet.
And, Brock, is there a way for people to get a hold of you, to get more information from you?
Sure. You can reach me at the well as well.
And just my ID there is Brock, B-R-O-C-K, at well.
And this is the same one that you just gave, that whole string of things.
You can reach me on MCIMail, as Bmeeks.
I'm on CompuServe.
My number there, my ID there is 70366,1355.
If you just want to use the telephone, that's great.
My work number is area code 202-872-9202, extension 271.
Okay. And I should also give out a phone number, too, for people wanting to just get us information in any way.
And that's 516-751-2600.
And, of course, you can also write to this radio program, Off the Hook, care of WBAI, 505 8th Avenue, New York, New York, 10018.
Now, Mike Godwin from Electronic Frontier Foundation, what kind of information can you give us as far as people getting a hold of you?
Well, I hate to just keep echoing this, but I can also be reached on the WELL.
My user ID there is mnemonic, M-N-E-M-O-N-I-C.
And so the address is mnemonic at well.sf.ca.us.
It can also be reached at godwin at EFF.org, which is the EFF's home machine.
And, of course, people can call me at area code 617-864-0665.
And I spend a lot of time during the day answering letters and phone calls from people who need legal information in this area or need some kind of help or advice.
I can't imagine how this would transpire were it not for organizations like Electronic Frontier Foundation, computers like the WELL.
I shudder to think of where we would be now if it were not for such entities.
But at this point, I want to give out the phone number for us here at the radio station, 212-279-3400.
We have a few minutes left, and we'd just like to take a couple of listener phone calls.
We have Mike Godwin from the Electronic Frontier Foundation, Brock Meeks from Communications Daily, and a hacker named Inhuman from Washington, D.C.,
talking about an alleged Secret Service raid on a 2600 meeting this past Friday.
They supposedly used security people at a mall, and based on what the security people have told us and now have denied telling us,
the Secret Service was behind the whole thing.
What do you think of that? 212-279-3400. Let's take our first listener phone call.
Good evening.
Hi. Yeah, about that thing. I don't know where you are in Arlington, off the subway system, off the metro,
how close the MCI building is also to the Pentagon.
But from what I've understood from magazines like Penthouse about the Pentagon, and this stuff is like real whack stuff,
anybody with the top clearances, like the, you know, the 23 agencies that are involved with CIA,
which doesn't, you know, frame the Pentagon, but they go in the parking lot.
And the Pentagon was built in 40-something, 44, and finished off in 46 in a hurry.
43, I think it was finished. It was finished in 43, started in 41.
Two years it took to build it. Well, they added on these stainless steel boxes.
So they're real crazy about this stuff, and nobody knows nothing about it.
Reporters have really tried to get close to neither of the boxes that they go in, and there's nothing to them.
They're just a bunch of cubes underground. They have nothing in them so they can talk.
And apparently they're supposed to be immune to psychic penetration, any kind of infrared or anything else.
So it's really hot about Washington, about that old building over there. Yeah, the five-side, yeah.
Okay, well, thanks for alerting us to that.
Let's take another phone call. Good evening.
Hello.
How you doing?
Good. I have a question about the song, In the Beginning.
Well, make it quick, because we really don't have time for this.
Was it Skinny Puppy?
No, it's Big Audio Dynamite. Is that your only question?
No, no, no, no, not the theme song, the song that you played.
Oh, oh, oh, that song was by a band called Screw.
Oh, all right. Thanks a lot.
Okay.
I'm going to send our greets to Katie.
Hi, Katie.
All right, all right.
Good evening. You're on the air.
Yeah, let me tell you something.
Call up Bill Gullen at the Associated Press at 621-1500 and tell them that you've got a story on computers.
And let me tell you something.
You computer hackers, the press can use you to find out what's happening in the intelligence and the military and so forth off the record, you know what I mean?
If you work with the press, man, you'll get coverage, you understand?
And you'll have protection.
So work with the press, boys, okay?
Okay. Thanks for calling.
Some good words of advice we're getting here tonight.
Good evening. You're on the air.
All right, yeah. I want to know how... Hold on for a minute.
He has to turn on the tape machine.
Every week he does this.
Yeah, yeah.
I wonder how to get onto the Internet.
Well, we can talk about the psychic... The psychic cruise box.
Hello?
Yeah, I don't know about that box.
Now, you want to know how to what?
Get onto the Internet.
Well, the easiest way to get onto the Internet that we tell people here at this radio program is to simply take a course somewhere at a local college and get an Internet account that way because it's free and it's easy to use at that point.
Take a course at NYU, Columbia...
Right.
...or any number of colleges.
Well, I just graduated college, and there's no way to do this, like, as a graduate or...
Well, there's all kinds of public Unix systems available, too, throughout the city.
There's one in New York City called Panics that's probably worth exploring.
Do you have a phone number for them?
I don't have one off the...
I could look it up.
...off the top of my head, but somebody may have one.
If you call the personal computer show, which comes on right after this program, and ask them that same question, they can probably give you a whole range of numbers.
Hello?
Yeah.
Emanuel, can I play you something quick?
Not this week.
We really are running out of time right now.
We have to go on to another phone call.
It's just that we have three guests on the line, and we have to move on here.
Good evening.
Hi, Emanuel.
I want to make a comment to the hacker community.
About every week, people have called up objecting to what hackers do, saying that it threatens the rights of private property.
And I think what you have to do, and what these raids and this harassment has to show, is that you cannot underestimate what effect this is having on the government, on major corporations, especially the telecommunications monopolies of various types.
And you have to see that this is very, very threatening to them.
I don't generally oppose it.
I'm raising it from the other standpoint, and I support a lot of the activity that goes on, because it works to democratize the society.
But what's happening is that the hackers are tempted to be isolated, and you've gone from the realm of just hacking into politics.
And once you've raised the issue of democratic rights, the rights to meet the mall and so forth, the hacking community has to find itself allies, has to study politics, has to realize that they're in a situation where they could very well be isolated without gaining some support in the population.
And I think those are some questions in capsules that really have to be addressed in terms of politicizing the hacking of the community.
Okay, good comments. Thank you. Any response to that?
Well, I think that, this is Brock, I think that's what EFF has done.
I mean, it's given people in the industry a forum and a place to go when they have questions about our rights being abused and stuff.
You know, we just came off of 12 years of a Republican administration that was incredibly hostile to privacy rights.
We saw a Freedom of Information Act, you know, almost cut off at the knees, access to government information locked up.
And so, you know, we're coming out of that 12-year mindset, and the federal agencies, such as the FBI and the Secret Service,
have been given a mandate under laws passed by those administrations.
And it's just been within the past year or so that organizations like EFF have popped up,
giving people at least a place to go and a place to start.
I think one of the things that really inspired the formation of EFF was the fact that the founders,
as well as many other people, were seeing how the law enforcement community was really attempting to demonize people
who were doing computer intrusion and were interested, but who were mainly interested in hacking computers
and exploring them and exploring the phone system.
But they were treated and described in press releases from the government
as if they were, you know, essentially no different from John Gotti
or people who were sort of seeking the power to extort information or money from others,
which I think is just not true for the most part.
All right, let's take another phone call.
Good evening, you're on the air.
Yes, I'm not a lawyer, but I think there are two things which you might be taking consideration.
There is a public accommodation law that prohibits discrimination that came out of the 60s.
I think it's more than just a freedom of speech.
For instance, could any private mall, bar, or publican, or belonging in any organization,
what you were doing, you weren't engaging in freedom of speech or in speech.
You were people who have a certain advocation who were meeting.
I don't think you were exercising more than just trying to use the restaurant.
Another thing, I think you should try to contact the American Civil Liberties Union.
Okay, thanks for calling.
Mike, any comments on that?
Well, I have to confess I'm not familiar enough with the public accommodations laws in Arlington
to be able to respond to that.
In general, laws that prohibit discrimination are aimed at minority or ethnic or religious groups.
They're aimed at the protection of those groups.
But this is more of a gray area where the issue is whether they're being discriminated against
because of what they believe.
I could imagine a case of a mall owner saying,
well, it's not that I'm worried about what they believe, but what they might do in my mall.
And it could get muddy pretty quickly.
But it's always worth looking up a new law.
Yeah, that's true.
All right, we are out of time, unfortunately.
We could talk about this for hours.
But unfortunately, we just used this one up real quick.
I do want to say, though, that the group in D.C.
is going to continue to meet at the exact same location.
In fact, this next meeting coming up on December 4th, Friday, December 4th,
is going to be joined by people from all over the country who are going to go down there as well.
And I imagine quite a few media people will also be in attendance at the Pentagon City Mall.
So it should be interesting to see what transpires from this.
I want to thank our guests tonight.
I want to thank Inhuman and the rest of the hackers down in D.C.
for the courage they showed and for sticking at this.
Mike Godwin, I want to thank you for your diligence.
in pursuing the matter and Brock Meeks for some excellent reporting that helped get this story out.
Okay.
Thanks.
Thanks for being with us tonight.
Goodbye.
And it's going to just about do it for us here on Off the Hook.
We'll be back again next week with another fun-filled program.
We'll see what transpires between now and then.
Don't forget, starting in December, our program will be moved up an hour to 10 o'clock or back an hour.
I'm not really sure what the phrase is, but we'll be on at 10 o'clock and the personal computer show will be on at 9 o'clock.
That's starting Wednesday, December 2nd.
So for those of you that must hear Off the Hook at 9 o'clock, you're going to have to set your clocks back.
We'll talk more about this in the weeks ahead.
Good night.