In fact, the massacres going on in Mozambique, for example,
are due to the fact that the rebel group is financed by South Africa.
The Angolan civil war was partially financed by South Africa.
The whole problem with Namibia, whether or not SWAPA would be given recognition
or whether or not it would simply be seized by South Africa,
was also initiated by South Africa.
South Africa has been involved with all sorts of different kinds of violations of international law.
And, in fact, the United Nations itself has been very weak on the question of enforcing its own mandate.
Well, unfortunately, that's all we have time left in exploration.
Once again, let me make that announcement that starting next week at 9 o'clock,
the computer show will be following exploration.
So for those people who normally tune in at 10 o'clock to find out the latest in computer hardware and software,
that program has now been moved up to 9 o'clock right after exploration.
Well, unfortunately, that's it for exploration.
This is Dr. Michio Kaku, Professor of Theoretical Physics,
inviting you to join us next Wednesday, in fact, every Wednesday from 8 o'clock to 9 o'clock,
when, on exploration, we discuss science, the question of war, peace, and the environment.
Good evening.
Stand by.
You're on the air.
Good evening, ladies and gentlemen.
Welcome.
The first question is...
Who is that macho?
Pineapple or night?
Well, let's see.
My guess is that pineapple is more macho than a night.
Yes, correct.
Pineapple is more macho than a night.
The second question is...
Who is that macho?
Lightbox or Scurva?
Ah, it's Lightbox.
No.
Sorry, Scurva is more macho than a night.
Carrier Wave, extremely emotional, inexpensive, and multicultural live radio with Sidney Smith.
Alternate Sunday nights, Monday mornings from 1 to 3 a.m.
I'll be seeing you, won't I?
And you'll be hearing him a lot better than that.
Sidney sounds much nicer when he's live.
Uh, yeah, so tune in for that.
Also, remember, next week at this time, you won't hear me saying,
It's 9 o'clock, now it's time for Off the Hook.
You'll hear the personal computer show.
But if you tune in one week and an hour from now,
you'll hear me saying,
It's 10 o'clock in time for Off the Hook.
But for now, for the very last time,
it's 9 o'clock.
Time once again for Off the Hook.
The telephone keeps ringing
So I ripped it off the wall
I cut myself while shaving
Now I can't make a call
It couldn't get much worse
But if they could, they would
Bum Diddley Bum
But I best expect the worst
I hope that's understood
Bum Diddley Bum
Bum Diddley Bum
And a very good evening to one and all.
The program is Off the Hook.
It's Emanuel Goldstein with you until 10 o'clock
where we talk about high technology,
low intelligence,
and the combinations that can result from
all kinds of wonderful things
that society, nature, exploration, curiosity bring us.
Your phone calls are welcome,
212-279-3400.
And your letters are also welcome.
WBAI 505 8th Avenue, New York, New York, 10018.
Well, things are progressing ever so slowly
and, in some cases, a little too fast
with regards to cases involving computer hacking,
with regards to things involving, well, just meeting in public places.
As we mentioned a few weeks ago, we had a lot of trouble in Washington, D.C.
because of some hacker's desire to meet in a public mall,
and apparently the Secret Service has taken exception to that.
Next week, next Friday, not this Friday, but a week from this Friday,
there will be another meeting at that very same mall in Washington, D.C.
It's going to bring people from a few other cities as well
to see what's going to happen.
Of course, we'll have the usual City Corps gathering here in New York,
and there's other cities that are joining in, too.
It'll be interesting to see how freedom of speech lends itself to this issue.
It's a battle we've been fighting for a couple of years now,
and it really seems to be hitting the front pages of a couple of newspapers
and making the talk show circuit as well.
So keep an eye on that.
By all means, if you want to drop by to one of the 2,600 meetings,
hacker meetings that take place in public areas,
and we do that so that you can escape if you need to,
it's easy.
You just come by.
You just come by, for instance, in New York City, City Corps Center,
right there on 53rd Street, between 5 and 8 p.m.,
first Friday of every month.
You come and you see if there's people there you want to talk to.
If not, you leave, or you stay and you mock them.
I don't know, whatever you feel like doing, it's a free country, still.
Anyway, we have a couple of interesting bits that are coming to us from the Internet,
from the Risks Digest, and a couple of other sources as well.
So we'll get into that.
We've got a special guest in the studio, and we'll be taking your phone calls.
Again, that number is 212-279-3400.
Well, this has to do with abuse of federal computer access.
Now, that's something that you might think a hacker would be responsible for.
You might think a hacker would have kind of a monopoly on that particular accusation.
But guess what?
Guess what, folks?
The vast majority of abuse of federal computers takes place by the people that have legitimate access.
That's right.
At the September 92 seminar of the America's Society for Industrial Security,
there is a lecture by the Office of the Inspector General of Health and Human Services.
They're normally tasked with tracking down people who cheat on Medicare and other assistance programs.
Last year, they cited $15 million in penalties in over 2,500 cases.
This lecture was about Operation Private Trust.
That's catching people who abuse their official computer access.
In mid-1990, HHS...
Ugh.
HHS...
I'd hate to have to work for that.
Good morning, HHS...
Yeah.
No, that's not good letters there.
Not good letters.
Well, anyway, those people noticed that a company in Florida was offering personal information
which could probably not be legally obtained as fast as they were providing it.
They called themselves Nationwide Electronic Tracking Service.
NET.
NET offered everything from credit checks in an hour for $10
to a 10-year employment history for $175.
They could do that in five days.
A scale of prices included $7.50 to get someone's home address,
based on their social security number, in under two hours.
They also offered info on a variety of topics, including your official criminal records,
employers, neighbors, post office box, driver's license, and car registration.
Along with all kinds of other things.
There are normally 200,000 legitimate external IRS queries every year,
but processing them normally takes two to four weeks.
Providing a niche for a criminal entrepreneur.
How do you identify the illegal queries?
Well, to make a long story short,
they laid a trap wherein a NET customer requested information based on a certain social security number.
HHS then asked the IRS to quietly monitor their system for a query.
It popped up two hours later in Phoenix.
The IRS had to modify their system to trace the identity of the person requesting the information.
Investigators then did other types of queries and soon discovered a large nationwide network of middlemen
with sources working at various government agencies.
Dozens of government employees were selling information to which they had online access.
Systems included IRS tax returns and the FBI's NCIC.
In some cases, the customers were drug dealers who were trying to check out backgrounds
in order to find undercover investigators.
Some of the middlemen also turned out to be former IG and other HHS agents
who are aware of the record's accessibility and lack of system security.
The middlemen made huge tax-free profits.
Where NET customers paid $100 for a report,
the clerk who did the access might receive only $5 for the effort.
That, my friends, is computer crime.
And unfortunately, you don't see these reports in the front page of newspapers all that often.
Rather, it's the computer hackers that wander in and find these things.
They're the ones that automatically are accused of doing what these people did.
What these people did was premeditated.
They made a profit.
They took advantage of things they knew about for their own slimy purposes.
That's something to keep in mind.
Here's something along the same lines.
This also comes from the Risk's Digest.
The Washington Post had an article on November 9th,
buried in Section D somewhere,
called The Credit Thieves.
They take your identity,
then
your good name.
In that article,
the author Stephen Shaw
asks if you have checked your credit rating lately.
Some thieves have been known to find people's personal information,
then
create new identities
and
new credit histories for some people.
Apparently,
name and address is enough to be able to
borrow someone else's credit information.
Some so-called
credit doctors charge $500
to find someone else with the same or similar name
and a clean record
and give the buyer that person's credit record.
Shard declares personal exposure to
credit fraud.
His own credit rating
showed almost $100,000 in credit,
services,
and merchandise.
Loans,
credit cards,
personal bank loans,
plane tickets,
home entertainment systems,
computers,
clothes,
furniture,
cellular telephones,
and a slew of other consumer goodies.
All those things granted to him,
even though he lives in Washington, D.C.,
and the credit granted to him
was to someone in Orlando, Florida,
and he's never heard of the things
claimed to be charged to him.
He only found out about it
when he applied for credit
with an organization
and they asked him
why he didn't declare
all the other credit cards
and such that he has.
Apparently,
almost anyone with access
to a computer terminal
that has access
to a regular credit reporting agency
can probably find out
your credit history.
His credit double was only caught
because he tried to buy a house
using Shaw's name.
The Secret Service is the agency
that handles trying to catch people
who do this kind of thing.
The credit mugger is in jail
awaiting trial
for four counts of bank and credit fraud.
You like that one, credit mugger?
You'd think the story would have
a happy ending, wouldn't you?
But no, it didn't.
Getting rid of the inaccurate
and fraudulent credit request
is a job in and of itself.
Equifax had deleted
five of the bogus accounts,
kept another four in my record
and added three new ones.
TRW told me that
most of the disputed accounts
had been deleted
because the creditor
had not replied
to TRW's inquiry,
but added that
the creditor may re-report them,
stating, in effect,
that the accounts
could reappear in future editions.
TransUnion did not have
the incorrect accounts,
but still had the Florida address.
TRW also has his address
listed as an incorrect place
in Florida.
A New York state agency
found six out of 17
credit reporting agencies
which advertised
would sell credit histories
without any attempt
to verify the purpose
of the request.
That's it right there
in a nutshell.
They'll sell it to anybody.
An executive at TRW
told a 1991 congressional hearing,
that if someone
is willing to lie
to get a consumer report
on another individual,
there is nothing
in the present law
to act as a deterrent.
We can give some addresses here.
Actually, this is something
I've been wanting to do
for a while.
You can even call
these people
and find out
how to get your credit report.
Equifax.
Box 740-241
Atlanta, Georgia
30374
And their toll-free number
is
1-800-685-1111
Oh, I can't resist.
Oh, yes.
See how easy it is
to get a copy
of our credit report here.
Oh, we did it again.
You know,
I just want to say,
if there's any phone company
people out there,
you've got to cut this place over.
We're on a number one ESS
and it keeps
hanging up on us
every time we make a call.
We're going to
accomplish this
and we're going to be
successful at it.
But we have to
time it just right.
Okay.
Thank you for calling Equifax.
If you have been
denied credit
or employment
based on an
Equifax credit report
and you wish to
obtain a copy
of your personal
credit report,
please press
1 now.
If you have not
been denied credit
and wish to obtain
a copy of your
credit report,
please press
2 now.
If you have already
received a copy
of your Equifax credit report
and have a question
or disagree
with its contents,
please press
3 now.
If you have
an urgent request,
please press
4 now.
To repeat this message,
press 0.
Let's press 2.
We haven't been
denied credit.
If you have not
been denied credit
and wish to obtain
a copy of your
credit report,
please send a check
or money order
with your request
to Equifax,
Post Office Box
740-241
in Atlanta, Georgia,
30374.
Please write your check
or money order
for the amount
of $8.
If you live in the
state of Maryland,
the charge is $5.
Or if you live in the
state of Montana
or Maine,
the charge
is $3.
To repeat this message,
please press 1.
To return to the
main menu,
please press 0.
Okay, let's explore
a little bit.
Thank you for calling
Equifax.
If you have been
denied credit
or employment
based on an
Equifax credit report...
Let's see if the rules
are any different
if you're denied credit.
...of your personal
credit report...
You know,
it sounded like
it hung up.
Ah.
You are calling
because you have
been denied credit
or other benefits.
That's right.
Review the same
information creditors
use in making
their lending decisions.
Send a written request
for your credit file
to Equifax,
Post Office Box
740-241,
Atlanta, Georgia
30374.
That address again
is Equifax,
Post Office Box
740-241,
Atlanta, Georgia
30374.
If information
on your credit file
has caused a delay
or denial
of an application
for a mortgage,
housing,
insurance,
employment,
utility service
or emergency loan,
please call
area code
404-612-3400
to rush
your request.
If you wish
to hear this message
again,
please press 1.
I don't wish
to hear it again,
do you?
Let's see what happens
if we hit nothing.
It hangs up.
It does hang up.
Okay.
Well,
that's what you have to do
to get credit
from Equifax,
get your credit report
from Equifax.
To get it from TransUnion,
you write to
Box 7000,
North Olmsted,
Ohio.
That's O-L-M-S-T-E-D.
Zip code 44070.
And they have a couple
of different phone numbers.
They have area code 215.
It's in Philadelphia
for some reason.
569-4582,
502-584-0121,
or 714-870-5191.
TRW can be reached
at 12606 Greenville Avenue,
Box 749-029,
Dallas, Texas.
That box number
is incredibly similar
to Equifax's,
except it's in a different city.
The zip code is 75374,
and the phone number
is 214-235-1200.
Now, TRW is actually
nice enough to allow
one free report a year
by mail,
but you have to write
to TRW, Box 2350,
Chatsworth, California,
91313-2350.
They won't send you anything
unless you ask them to,
but they'll gather
all kinds of information
on you,
and they'll sell it
to all kinds of people.
And they'll even
sell it to you.
Okay, finally,
this is a bit of
a whimsical thing.
You've heard about
the digital telephony
business with the FBI
wanting to be able
to wiretap more easily
in digital phone systems
and asking
or actually demanding
that particular
private phone systems
have a special apparatus
or just a back door
so that the FBI
can get in there
and listen to things.
and they want
to make that a law.
You can't have
a phone system
unless it's possible
for them to get in
and listen
if they have to.
Well, on a similar note,
the Russian government
is going to pass
a law requiring
furniture manufacturers
to build microphones
and radio transmitters
inside every sofa,
chair, and table
manufactured.
A high official
from the Russian government
was reported to say,
we just aren't able
to function anymore
without a law like this.
After the Soviet Union
ceased to exist,
the United States government
has hired over 50%
of the KGB staff
and we are losing
the ability
to watch criminals.
They have the need
and they have the money
and they value experience
you couldn't have gotten
anywhere else.
Thus,
our law enforcement
has suffered.
When this law passes,
we can catch all criminals
even before they have time
to commit the crimes.
It is planned
that at a later stage
when Russia has
the technology to do it,
a similar law
will be passed
for dentists
to install the same hardware
and tooth fillings.
For people who have doubts
that this would be
a return to the former
Soviet Union policies
of watching for
political dissidents,
the official says,
absolutely not.
We have learned
from our past mistakes.
It is only natural
that we want to maintain
our ability to catch criminals
in the changing times.
The changes in the job market
are taking all our KGB men
for a country
where there's money
and where there's
a flourishing job market
and it's only fair
we should keep
our law enforcement
at the high level
we have managed to get it.
Thus,
we are not even increasing
our resources,
we are just keeping them
the same.
The tapes will be used
only to catch criminals
and a court order
will be required
before we will listen
to the tapes.
Trust us,
we're the government
and we are here
to help our citizens.
And the law also requires
that if anyone sitting
on a sofa or a chair
or at a table
speaks any other language
than Russian,
she or he must be able
to provide an interpreter
who will translate
his talk to Russian
if the law enforcement
decides there's
a legitimate need
to listen to the tape
of the conversation.
To make this possible,
the name and address
of the interpreter
must be clearly said aloud
in Russian
near the table
slash sofa
slash chair
before each conversation
in any language
other than Russian.
That you can find
on the Risk Digest
came from Helsinki
from Ziriki Kupala.
It's one of the many
wonderful things
you can find
by wandering around.
Okay,
that's pretty much it
as far as
Strangities of the night.
We have a couple
of guests here tonight.
We have a number
we were going to
check out first.
A special exchange
which has popped up
in Manhattan.
It's called
the 8-1-1 Exchange.
Nobody knows
what it's for
except it seems
to ring sometimes.
Now,
we've just tried it
before the show
and it's doing
something different.
Let's call it live
and see what we
actually get.
Okay,
let's get our dial tone
there.
Alright,
dial tone is there.
We'll dial 8-1-1-1-2-3-4.
And hopefully
it won't hang up on us
and we'll hear
what we actually get.
It's exciting, isn't it?
I'm sorry.
Your call did not go through.
Will you please
try your call again?
1-3-2-A-1.
Okay,
now that might not
sound like much
but according to
Fiber Optic
who's here in our studios
that recording
means something.
What does it mean?
Well,
let me get rid of it first.
Okay,
goodbye recording.
Well,
it's actually pretty odd
because not long ago
some of the numbers
would ring indefinitely
and some would just say
that they're not in service
and now
it's
apparently
as far as I know
none of the numbers
go through it all
and, you know,
you might be saying
so what?
Big deal.
The odd thing
is that 8-1-1
for those who recall
has never been used before
because it's set aside
as being reserved
as are any
1-1 following
three-digit combinations.
For example,
0-1-1 is the call overseas,
2-1-1 is coin refund
and 4-1-1 is information
and so on
and
say for 9-1-1
for emergency
pretty much
nothing else
is really used.
What does that
recording mean?
Well,
it's
well,
the 1-3-2-A-1
at the end,
the A-1 is
a recording identifier
but 1-3-2
means that
1-3-2 is the number
of our ladder,
our local access
and transport area.
Now,
what the ladders are,
for those who don't know,
are what really
delineates
what's considered
local
and what's considered
long distance.
An inter-ladder call
is what's considered
long distance
and
the ladders
did not necessarily
fall on phone company
boundaries
nor did they fall
on geographic locations.
They're just a
system that was set up
according to
actually according
to government censuses
to try to group areas
according to
the same economic
and social background.
Our ladder
1-3-2
encompasses
all of New York City,
parts of Westchester
and Long Island,
all of Long Island
actually,
and northern New Jersey.
So we've all pretty much
grown up in 1-3-2.
Yeah,
we've always been 1-3-2
and we always will be.
It's good to have
something in common
with the people around you
and we're definitely
a 1-3-2 crowd
and I bet
the listeners out there
didn't know
they were part of
that crowd too
but hey,
we're a hip crowd.
Yeah,
well no doubt
in the time to come
I'm sure 8-1-1
will be used
for something special
although you never know
but it may just be
assigned as a normal prefix,
who knows?
It's a pretty strange
normal prefix,
8-1-1.
Yeah, it is.
We'll see what happens.
People out there
keep checking it out.
Maybe it does something
different from where you are.
All right,
the number to call now
is 212-279-3400.
We have in our studio
with us tonight
John Perry Barlow
who is co-founder
of the Electronic
Frontier Foundation
and so many other things
as well
and I've just
gone into delay here
and confused everybody.
Sorry about that.
Now,
John,
you're here in New York
visiting,
living
from Wyoming.
What's your status?
My status is that
my publisher decided
that I was more likely
to finish the books
I owe them
if they placed me
under adult supervision
so I moved to New York
with the idea
of being watched
and chained to the wall
down at Viking Penguin.
And how's that happened?
Well,
I haven't been writing
much faster
than I was in Wyoming
but I sure like
New York an awful lot.
That's something
we were talking about
that before.
You really seem
to like New York a lot.
I really do.
Almost too much.
Now,
what's going on here?
I don't know.
I mean,
I think New York
is pretty consistent
in giving you back
what you give it
and it's possible
to get yourself
into a positive
feedback loop
with New York
that can make
you like it
too much
almost.
I mean,
it'll come right
back at you
and it's a continuing
marvel as far
as I'm concerned.
It's a rich place.
This is here
in 123,
I mean.
132.
132.
Be careful there.
Be careful.
Those 123 people
aren't welcome here.
I can see why not.
You don't know
where 123 is,
do you, Fiber?
I don't recall.
We'd like to get
a list of all those places
but of course,
I guess if we had
a list like that
it would be considered
illegal.
And proprietary information
and things like that
but they tell us,
they say it to us,
they say 132
and they wonder
why we're curious
what it means.
But, John,
let me ask you,
you got involved
in this whole hacker thing.
How did that come about?
I mean,
you've done so much
else in your life.
Well, it was just,
I mean,
it was blind good luck
as far as I can tell.
I mean,
I had no idea
that this stuff
was going on.
I was a retired
cattle rancher
and if it hadn't
have been for a chance
visit from an FBI agent
based on completely
erroneous understanding
of how the world
was set up,
I'd attended something
called the Hackers Conference
which,
in the service
of a book
that I'm researching
about cyber culture
among other things.
and the Hackers Conference
just specializes
in people
that are,
you know,
major creators
of computer technology
and has nothing to do
with the term hacker
in your sense.
It's,
you know,
I mean,
there's some overlap.
Well, we share
some of the same feelings.
Yeah, I mean,
some of those guys
have done a little cracking
if not a lot
but,
you know,
they're mostly
at this point
sort of senior statesmen
and in any case
Apple had some
source code
that was purloined
and put around
on the net
and they got very upset
about it
because they claimed
and maybe even believed
on some level
that this was like
the recipe
to the Macintosh.
They got the FBI
to believe
that they were
porting around
Macintosh recipes
and surely
we would be awash
in Japanese Mac clones
in no time at all
and the future
of the republic
hung in the balance.
So the FBI,
not knowing anything
about any of this stuff
turns up
in Pinedale, Wyoming
asking a bunch
of questions
about new prosthesis
which was
Agent Baxter's
understanding
of the new
Prometheus League
which claimed
to be
the nefarious
techno-terrorist
behind this
dissemination
of source code.
I think actually
it was just one
irritated Apple
employee probably
but I realized
that Agent Baxter
didn't know anything
about any of this
stuff and that
he was there
packing a piece
and asking a lot
of really
mysterious questions
mysterious to both
of us
and I never am
very comfortable
when I see
somebody who's
a little bit
insecure
and well-armed
feeling like he's
in over his head.
So I started
to find out
about a lot
of the stuff
that was going
on.
I had met
Fiber here
online
previously
when Harper's
Magazine
did a conference
on hacking
and computers
and security
and I ended
up in that forum
for reasons
that are still
very mysterious
to me
because I didn't
know anything
about it
at the time.
I'd have to say
I do now.
Maybe that was
the reason
to see how
somebody would
I don't know.
In any case
there I was
and you know
I didn't
Fiber here
I assumed
was some kind
of a digital
Neilist
you know
nine feet tall
and tracking
ASCII
everywhere he went
and
But he's not?
No.
He's
I mean
he's about
like I was
when I was
his age
as far as
I can tell.
But
we got
into a set
too at one
point
and I
allowed us
how it seemed
like he was
more like a
skateboarder
than anything
else.
Which he
I think
was
it was
one of
those things
that would
cut close
enough to
the bone
that he
got very
defensive
about it.
You know
there's none
so swift
to their
own defenses
that justly
accused.
And he
downloaded
my TRW
file and
told me
that he
would change
it to my
permanent
disadvantage
if I
didn't back
off.
And
hell I didn't
know whether
he could do
that or not
but I started
to think what
life without
credit would be
like.
What was
your reaction
to that?
I was scared
I mean that
surprisingly
enough spooked
me as bad
as anything
ever has
in a way
because you
know life
in America
without credit
is a drag.
You know money
order cues and
crumpled bills
and so I told him
that I thought
that we'd exceeded
the bandwidth
of the medium
and I would dig
it if he would
give me a call
which he did
very shortly
thereafter.
I also told
him I wouldn't
insult his
intelligence by
giving him my
phone number
which I think
caused him to
call me quicker
but you know
as soon as I
got into that
relationship with
him I could see
that he was
as I say
not unlike
where I'd been
at.
He knew a
hell of a lot
more about
the phone
company or
the phone
network than
I ever
aspired to
but when the
government started
to come after
him and others
of his sort
with this
pathological
zeal I could
see that what
we had here
was a big
difference between
the reality and
the myth that
was going to
cause an awful
lot of people
suffering if
something can
get cleared up
pretty quickly.
So that's
and along
around that
time I got
together with
Mitch Kapoor
and the two
of us looked
at it and
decided to
start EFF.
And have
things changed
since then
in a positive
way?
I would say
things have
changed.
I mean you
know I get
a little close
to it but
you'd be a
better judge
of that than
I would in
a way but
I would say
things have
changed in
a very positive
way across
the face of
cyberspace.
Well I'd have
to say things
have changed
in a positive
way in that
more people
are aware
of things.
We have
more people
that are
listening to
us but
as far as
has it
actually changed
as far as
people being
raided and
having their
lives torn
apart by
federal agents
saying they're
going to send
them to jail
for the rest
of their lives
for logging
into a
computer system
that hasn't
changed.
It's still
happening and
it's still
disproportionate to
what has
actually occurred.
It's certainly
not happening
at anything like
the scale that
it was before.
I'd have to
say that they've
backed off pretty
significantly in
that sort of
thing.
I mean correct
me if I'm
wrong but I
don't think
there's been a
major sweep in
the last year
has there?
Do you share
that fiber?
I wouldn't
really know.
There's nothing
significant I've
heard about lately.
I think they're
laying low so
far.
I mean the last
major action that
we saw was when
they arrested
fiber here.
As far as I'm
familiar with
anyway.
Stuff happens
often in Dayton,
Ohio or something
that I might not
know about.
You know they're
still out there
and they're still
paranoid.
I mean look what
happened at the
2600 meeting in
D.C.
But you know what
happened at the
2600 meeting was
that they got
I mean these people
are not very bright.
We're talking about
the Secret Service
of the United
States and these
people are a joke.
No doubt that will
be noted in some
file.
Well but I mean
God.
They just have this
sort of they're
just differently
clued and permanently
so as far as I can
tell.
But you know in this
particular instance
they thought that what
they were busting up
was a gathering of
Arab terrorists.
They thought that it
was some kind of an
Arab conspiracy.
you know and they
missed on one
boogeyman and hit
another and then
they thought oh you
know what a good
boy am I.
But I think they've
they've messed
themselves up pretty
badly.
Well I've seen the
same criticism and
you kind of directed
the same criticism
towards the FBI as
well.
No I wouldn't.
So they didn't have a
clue as to what was
going on.
No but I mean they
are eager to figure it
out.
I mean culturally the
FBI wants to know.
Why does the Secret
Service not want to
know?
Well human cultures
develop.
I mean I don't know
I don't know why New
York is so different
from Philadelphia.
I know that you get
a large bunch of
people together and
they'll develop a
culture that over the
course of time has a
life of its own.
And the culture of the
FBI is very different
from the from the
Secret Service in my
experience and a lot
more susceptible to
learning.
I mean the FBI
actually as far as I
can tell tries to get
it right.
The ones I've
encountered.
Okay we're going to
take some phone calls
before we do.
Do you want to tell
us something about
EFF?
Where you're going
now?
How people can get
in touch with you?
That kind of thing.
Well we're
God you know we
find ourselves
thrust into this
weird position of
being something like
the territorial
government of
cyberspace.
And you know
we're not terribly
well equipped for
that.
But we're ramping
up as fast as we
can.
and you know I
think we've got a
lot of things going
in Washington.
I would say that
we've been the main
reason why digital
telephony has been
beaten back so far.
We just got a bill
passed that allows the
commercialization of
the internet which
means that it's not
just going to be some
big extension of the
military.
What does that mean
the commercialization?
It means it's possible
for non-governmental
and non-academic
packets to travel on
the internet now.
Which I think is
going to make a big
difference in the
quality of life
online.
Does that mean
there will be all
kinds of commercial
applications?
I don't think so.
I mean it's more
like companies are
going to start using
it to communicate
with one another
which they already
were.
You know.
I mean it simply
ratifies what was
already the case.
But the best way to
get a hold of us
you know I would
give you a real
world address but
I'm inclined to say
that the best way
to get a hold of
us is just to
write us at
EFF at EFF.org
just EFF or
EFF dash request.
Well for those of
us that don't have
access how about
a phone number?
EFF.org.
Okay the phone
number is 617-864-0665.
Okay and before we
go to the phones
any update on the
Steve Jackson case?
Well you know
legal time is
second only to
geological time and
the stateliness of
its pace and you
know we're suing
the United States
government on behalf
of Steve Jackson
and going at it
with all deliberate
speed but they have
continued and they
have delayed and
they have this is a
long process.
You know it's just
out there in that
legal time frame is
all I can say.
Okay we're here with
John Perry Barlow of
the Electronic
Frontier Foundation
who's also been a
cattle rancher and a
lyricist for the
Grateful Dead and
probably all kinds of
other things as well
and Fiber Optic
renowned hacker and
if you have any
questions for us here
at Off the Hook
212-279-3400.
Let's see who's out
there.
Good evening you're
on.
Hello.
Go ahead.
Oh yes I called my
local telephone
business and office
and they told me I
tried to get the
caller ID or call
restrict and they
said when you call
911 that function
was disable the call
ID so they wouldn't
know where you
lived.
Is that true?
Where are you?
In Queens?
I don't believe
911 is equipped to
tell.
911 does not have
call ID as far as I
can tell installed on
their lines.
So if I did all call
restrict that wouldn't
affect that in any way?
I don't believe so and
I can only say I don't
believe so because these
things are subject to
change.
And also what does
star 69 do?
Star 69 is call
return.
That's if somebody
calls you you can
even if you don't
pick up the phone you
can star 69 them or
1169 if you don't have
a star button and
they will their phone
will ring.
Yeah.
So if you do star
67 would that disable
that function?
Star 67 is which is
star 67?
That's the disable
caller ID.
That's the disable
caller.
No that does not
disable star 69 which
is a sticking point
with us.
How would you disable
that?
Right now there is no
way.
That's something the
phone company kind of
snuck in.
It's kind of odd
right?
Having caller ID
then you can use
star 69.
Star 8 9 does not
disable star 69.
Star 8 9 will simply
stop it from repeat
dialing.
Yeah.
Oh you mean the
block from someone
calling you back?
The block from
having you.
There's no way to do
that.
Not yet.
Unless you call
through an operator
or you call like
through a long
distance company.
Yeah that's great.
Okay thank you very
much.
Thanks for calling.
Now you had something
to say on the.
Yeah I just wanted to
note with 9-1-1.
I wanted to note
with 9-1-1.
So they're not going
to know the number
you're calling from
unless you tell them.
With enhanced 9-1-1
your number and your
location are provided
through what's known
as automatic number
identification, ANI,
and automatic location
identification, ALI.
And the technology
that provides you
with caller ID
and call return
and all those neat
things is a signaling
system 7 and that's
a completely separate
technology than the
way your number
would be provided
to say the way
your number is
provided to a 9-1-1
service is sort of
akin to the way it
would be provided
to an 800 service
through ANI.
Now what would
stop the 9-1-1
operators from
simply having caller
ID installed?
Oh no there's
nothing stopping them
from doing that at
all.
Okay.
So all we have is
the phone company
say so that it
doesn't exist
currently.
Yeah.
Okay.
Good evening you're
on the air.
Yes thank you.
That's a small
irritation but the
word core is in
marine core C-O-R-P-F
I can understand
you're pronouncing
that way but city
corp is short for
corporation and it
seems really strange
we keep saying city
corp and it drives
me up the wall.
Okay well we'll try
to control that in
the future but we
we should be saying
city corps right?
No city corp
there's no S on it.
Oh there's no S at
the end?
No it is it is
really technically
city corp yeah.
Why do I put an S
at the end?
I wonder why.
Peace corps.
Yeah I must be
thinking of that.
I must be thinking
wishfully of the
peace corps whenever
I think of city
corps.
Your criticism has
been taken in you
know very seriously
and I will endeavor
to pursue that.
Whatever.
All right thanks for
calling.
Bye bye.
He waited for about
40 minutes to tell me
that.
That's great.
He's right.
He is right.
Most of our
listeners are right.
Good evening you're
on the air.
Hello how are you?
I'm fine.
My name is Anthony
and I have a few
questions because you
talk a lot about you
know modems and data
communications and
things like that.
Can you please explain
the various error
correcting and
compression standards
that are out there
because when I go you
know out to look at
different modems it's
very confusing.
There's like a
million not a million
but there's things
called MNP.
What speed modem are
you looking for?
I'd like to get a
9600 baud modem but
I noticed they're
advertised as being
able to transfer at
even higher rates and
I was wondering does
that mean I have to
communicate with other
people with exactly the
same brand of modem or
does the other person
just have to have those
error correcting or
compression facilities
built into their modem.
What are all these
different standards out
there?
This is actually a deep
question this guy is
asking.
This is not an easy
thing to answer.
I'll try to answer this
as best as possible but
your modem is going to
try to match the
protocol of the modem
you're connecting to so
you're not going to be
all too concerned with
that but just to sum up
the error correction and
compression protocols the
most commonly used ones
out there are MNP
number five which is the
microcom networking
protocol number five
which is an error
correction and
compression protocol
usually associated more
with the lower speed
modems usually up to
2400 bits per second
when you get into the
9600 and the 14400
range 14400 being a
V32 modem or V32
BIS modem.
BIS.
Yeah V32 BIS.
The V42 and V42 BIS
are error correction and
compression protocols that
use the LAP-M
protocol which typically
can give you an average
throughput and compression
rate of at least 4 to 1
compression ratio which at
any given time you could
be transmitting data in a
file transfer at 38,400
bits per second while you're
using V32 BIS 14400 but of
course the person at the
other end would also have to
have a V32 BIS and V42 BIS
modem so if you're looking
for a decent modem that's
what you'd be looking for
V32, V42 BIS modems.
And then there are other
things like telebit modems
that have their own
they really do have their
own proprietary protocol
set.
Yeah that's associated with
transfers specifically
half duplex where you can
actually achieve up to
18,000 bits per second in
one direction only and
that's more associated with
file transfers on say a
Unix system.
But if you're looking just
to call a local BBS and
upload and download programs
at reasonable speeds you're
going to want a V32, V42
BIS modem.
And just as a note this is
the age old misusage of the
word baud.
Baud and bits per second are
not the same.
They do not mean the same
at higher bit rates.
300 baud is the only bit
rate that's the same.
300 baud and 300 bits per
second do mean the same
thing but that's where it
ends.
Baud is a unit that designates
the rate of modulation
whereas bits per second
designates the speed of the
serial line.
All right so in the future
we will not tolerate people
calling us about 1200 baud
modems and I will not say
CityCorps.
Yeah there you go.
It's BPS.
BPS.
Yeah.
All right.
I was wondering about that.
Learn something every day.
Now fiber I'll just have to
follow you around.
You might actually want to call
the personal computer show
which comes on right after
this show and ask more
questions about those such
things.
Let's take some more calls
here.
Good evening.
You're on the air.
Hello yes.
I would like to know about
this.
When you're using New York
telephone you dial the 958
and it gives you the phone
number?
That's right.
Okay.
How did that come about?
That is something known as
automatic number announcement.
the phone line is simply
identifying itself to you.
It will also work on 511 in
many places.
Okay.
My other question which is
related.
Yeah.
If I used a non-New York
telephone and I dialed 958 or
whatever.
What do you mean by a non-New
York telephone?
Well a pay phone.
Okay.
That's not a co-cut.
A phone that is owned by
somebody else.
Right.
Not New York telephone.
Okay.
What will happen there is
usually they will this is
interesting that usually they
will block 958 or charge you
for it and wait for four more
digits.
So if you put in four more
digits it'll say put in a
quarter.
If you put in a quarter
sometimes it goes through
sometimes it doesn't and you
actually get the number of the
pay phone.
Now with the case of 511 I
tried to see it a day and it
was interesting.
It took 511 as an area code
waited for seven more digits
and the surprising thing was it
took it took the the call and
placed it and said this is a
free call.
You can you can place this call
and then after a while it gave
me the phone number.
I had to put in seven extra
digits for nothing but it did
give me the phone number.
However the phone number for
for such a phone is really no
good to you because if you call
it usually a computer will
answer and you won't be able to
receive calls.
It's a sad thing a sad
phenomenon we're seeing.
You don't want you don't want
the phone number one of those
phones anyway.
Oh I don't know.
You know some of those phones
are useless no matter what you're
trying to do with them.
Yeah although there are a lot of
people in the hacker world that
are trying to figure out how it
works.
You know there's there are these
phones that pick up you hear a
digitized voice say thank you and
then it plays four tones.
That system has not been cracked
yet and I'm waiting to see how it
works.
I'd like to know myself just what
it is that that little voice can
tell you.
There are other kinds that answer
with with actual data modems and
you can transfer information that
way.
But again we don't know what the
the capabilities are.
There's something we want to
learn.
All right 212-279-3400 good
evening you're on the air.
Yeah hi um I'd like to tell you
that some of the call card
phones that I've seen one of them
had a New York telephone
instruction cards on them.
Did they say New York telephone?
You know they had you know what the
instruction cards look like for
New York telephone?
I know what they look like but
did it actually say New York
telephone?
It said New York telephone.
Really?
Phone but the instruction cards.
Uh-huh.
And I knew it was a call card
phone obviously because of the
voice.
Uh-huh.
That's that's pretty interesting
of course they'll say that
somebody else put it there but
Right I mean they're trying to
make it think it's a New York
telephone pay phone.
Uh-huh.
Well a lot of people are fooled
anyway.
In most cases the coin slide is on
the opposite side from a New York
telephone.
In most cases those are the ones
that look exactly the same.
I don't know if they just
reverse the uh the blueprint or
something.
What is a toggle switch?
A toggle switch.
It's a switch that toggles.
Simply a switch that you could
flip back and forth.
Yeah.
I mean in regards to what?
No I have found in the 2600
uh a diagram in 2600 and it's a
toggle switch.
Is that your receiver on your
phone or something?
No.
Well there's various different
types of toggle switches.
There's your single pull single
throw SPST toggle switch which
is the most common which is
simply either on or off and it
simply uh closes a connection
and all it is is just a switch
that uh rocks back and forth that
you toggle with your finger.
Is it in a phone or?
No it's it's something that
you'd use in the say the
construction of something.
It could be a switch on a
control panel.
It could it could be used
it's a general purpose switch
used very commonly.
Well I just want to also say
that 811 is uh if you go down
to the World Trade Center
they'll be signed saying on
these are regular New York
telephone payphones now.
They'll say dial 811 for
emergency only.
I've seen those.
And you'll be connected to
the Port Authority Police.
I've seen those and I
couldn't figure them out.
It seems like you're in a
special phone system down
there.
Oh no it's a regular New York
telephone phone system.
It's a regular New York
telephone payphone and it's
on a 1ESS or whatever it is.
So uh perhaps only that
exchange 811 works.
Yeah I might want to note
that in the World Trade
Center they have their own
central office.
Let me ask you this.
Inside the building.
Can you program your phone
number to do certain things
with certain numbers?
Uh not specifically your
phone number no.
Typically it would be for
the entire exchange.
Well I mean.
No well I.
You can program a speed
dial for instance.
So if you dial 2 it'll go
to this particular person
when you're programming.
What I'm trying to note
though is that at the
World Trade Center they
can do whatever they like
with the local phones
because they have their
own switching system in
the South Tower.
There's a central office
known as South Tower.
And it just serves the
World Trade Center.
It serves the World Trade
Center.
Oh really?
So they could virtually
do whatever they like.
They could program
whatever they like into it
and it's still part of
New York Telephone.
Alright and now I heard
a recording saying
7182T after error recording.
718 obviously you know
what that means.
2T is just a recorded
announcement identification.
It's nothing significant.
And some of them will say
315-684.
You know they'll say the
area code plus the first
three digits.
Yeah.
Well the most common
ones that I've heard
like interlatter
like for instance
AT&T recordings.
Like 132A1.
Yeah there's those
that state the latter.
But the local ones
you might get
that's how you can tell
by the way
if you're getting
an intercept
from an interlatter carrier
or whether you're getting
an intercept
from the local phone company.
Yeah during earthquakes
if you say call California
you'll get a recording
from Las Vegas.
You'll know your call
made it that far.
Yeah.
different parts
of the country
and also different
long distance companies
have different recordings
as well.
You can tell
where your call
is being routed
who is routing
the call
MCI,
Sprint.
Is there a way
of telling a number
one ESS
from a number
one AESS
question?
Specifically not really.
There aren't really
you mean by
discerning it by ear?
There really isn't
any effective way
to tell by ear.
Right.
There really aren't
too many noticeable
differences either.
not from the person's end
the person using the phone.
By the way
the 212-407 exchange
has been cut over
to a number
a DMS switch
and most of it
is vacant.
Is that so?
Where's 407?
Actually I think
what happened was this.
407 was on
East 90 something street
but I think what happened
was they took
that crossbar out
and just sort of
consolidated the exchange
with another exchange
on 50th Street.
That's interesting.
I think that's 97th
up there.
Yeah.
I don't recall.
Okay we're going to move on.
I'm going to say
happy Thanksgiving
to everyone.
Okay you too.
Happy Thanksgiving.
Take care.
Yes we follow
just about every phone
number there is
in Manhattan I guess.
But that 811
is interesting.
If it is just reserved
for the World Trade Center
for Port Authority Police
there perhaps that's why
it's not working
for anybody else
or maybe
something new.
Maybe they're going
to have to change
that particular feature
because of something else.
Can you guys explain
something to me?
What is the reason
behind this proliferation
of these bozo phones
in New York?
Where did they all
come from?
That's something new
to you isn't it?
Yeah.
I've never run across
these things before.
They're diabolical.
Well they've deregulated
payphone industries
so that you can compete.
Well I know that
but I mean
why would anybody
it's really
why would a business
establishment
want a device
in their business
that was going to
actively irritate customers?
Well you see
that's obviously
not the selling point
that it's going
to actively
irritate customers.
What it is
is something that
they'll get more
of a percentage.
With New York Telephone
you don't get
a very big percentage.
They take most
of it themselves
for having the phone
there.
With a co-cut
and to a lesser degree
with an alternate
long distance company
for O plus calls
on a regular
New York Telephone
payphone
you get more
of a share
of the profit
and the thought
being that
you have this phone
this phone belongs
to you
and you can pretty much
keep the money
that shows up
in it.
You'll see a lot
of them
in low income
neighborhoods
particularly
because that's
where people
traditionally
are taken
advantage of
the most.
I'd also like
to note
that you'll find
co-cuts
in every major
city
everywhere.
The only difference
is that
the reason why
not in Connecticut
they're illegal there.
Ah okay
Connecticut
but the reason
why they've
proliferated so badly
and the reason
why they're so
diabolical in New York
and they get away
with it
is that to my
knowledge
New York Telephone's
fraud investigation
for pay phones
there are only
to my knowledge
two people
assigned to
take complaints
and actually
investigate reports
so I think
that's the bigger
problem.
Yeah
that's the bigger
problem
there's a hell of a lot
more pay phones
out there
fraudulent
co-cuts
that are breaking
the FCC regulations
and New York Telephone
taking this as seriously
as to only put two people
to handle the problem
is going to lead to
a lot more problems
as it has.
It's a good point
that the phone companies
often don't recognize
the real problems
and they don't devote
enough time to that
but if you're very
unhappy with a co-cut
you should contact
the Public Service Commission
they're here in New York City
and if it's something
involving crossing
state lines
such as a long distance
company
the FCC
is at least on paper
more than happy to help.
Good evening
you're on the air.
Good evening
several points
the co-cuts
at least
most of them now
will let you call
free to local information
411
or 555-1212
within the city limits
as they were required
to start doing
July 1st
of last year
actually
they're supposed
to do it
throughout the latter
which would also mean
1516
and 1914
plus 555-1212
I've never found
one that will do that
some of them
want you to deposit
50 cents
for an 800 call
950
plus 4 digits call
some of them
will let those
go through
free
and some of them
will mute the touch tones
after they go through
technically placing the call
but still
you know
screwing you at the end
how do you mean?
if you hit the touch tones
you don't get any tones
a 950 number
is not much use
without touch tones
afterwards
I see what you mean
what's another thing
about them
oh
one good reason
you know
they don't want you
to simply be able
to dial the 958
from those
I think is probably
very reasonable
is because
the average dummy
if he could find out
the number
would then call
New York
Tells Repair Service
on 611
and their repair service
people would spend
all their time
telling people
I'm sorry
that's not one
of our public phones
well there's an easy
way around that
you simply program
611 to forward
to the right
repair place
hey
okay
anyway
possibly useful
clue for your listeners
their point is this
early this year
AT&T
started charging
three bucks
to connect you
to any
overseas
information operator
in other words
outside of USA
Canada
and area code
809
later
MCI
followed them
though with their
usual little
tacky thing
of being one penny
less
so they're $2.99
however
and if you call
Metromedia
10ITT
plus 0
104880
they will simply
verbally
their operator
will refer you
to
10ATT
plus 0
and ask you
to call
via AT&T
so you're stuck
Sprint
Sprint
therefore
is the one
that still
will connect you
overseas
for free
if you're on
a Sprint line
which you can
determine
by dialing
1-700-555-4141
which in New Jersey
even works
from New Jersey
Bell's public phones
you simply dial
00
if you're
uncertain
or not on
a Sprint line
you just dial
10SPR0
in other words
10770
or 103330
and accomplish
the same thing
a very minor
correction point
of course
not all
of area code
516
is in
ladder number
132
the 516788
exchange only
you've done
your homework
I have to say
Fisher's Island
the old
step office
well maybe
you can tell me
then
there's no longer
a step office
out there
what have they
cut over to
that's been
electronic for years
not too many
I was out there
last year
it was still
a step
oh sir
it must be
10 years
that their
little tiny
phone book
has had the
instructions
for how to
dial your
overseas
phone calls
and things
well you might
be able to
do that
but if you
called it
you still
got that
you know
rather
annoying
sound
that great
people's ears
that was
either a busy
signal or a ring
to them
I see
at least
you know
you have to
dial four digits
to reach people
on the local
exchange now
instead of it
it was always
just the last
three digits
so I guess
they're adding
some lines
of course
if you want
to call
anywhere else
even within
your own area
code
you dial one
plus the seven
digits
instead of
that you know
you see how
that works
but they are
it's a very
it's probably
a unique situation
they are squeezed
in there
between
the Rhode Island
ladder
the Connecticut
except for the town
of Granite
which belongs
to New York
Tell
and the
New York
metro ladder
of New York
Tell
which covers
all the rest
of 516
so they had
to give them
their own
tiny little
ladder
serving just
that one
exchange
with its
several hundred
phone lines
yeah and
it doesn't
stop there
they have
a Connecticut
zip code
but they're
part of
Suffolk County
New York
that makes
sense
because the
only way
to reach
them
the only
way for
their mail
to reach
them
by
surface
public
transit
is the
ferry
steamer
from New
London
Connecticut
right
so I don't
want to cut
you off
but we are
out of time
but you've
raised some
very interesting
points and
hopefully we can
continue these
in weeks
ahead
star 6-7
and answer
that earlier
caller's
question about
when he is
revealing or
concealing his
number on
the next
call
what days
and hours
is this
program on
Wednesday
from now
on we'll
be on
Wednesdays
at 10
o'clock
so if you
tune in
next week
at this
time you'll
hear the
beginning of
the show
10 to
11
thanks very
much
thanks for
calling
and that's
going to
just about
do it for
us here
today
sit down
the program
is off the
hook
this is
Emmanuel
Goldstein
I want to
thank John
Barlow for
stopping in
Fiber Optic
for coming
by
and hopefully
we'll have
you both
on future
programs
stay tuned
for the
personal
computer
show
remember
next week
we're moving
next week
we are moving
to this
particular time
which is
around 10
o'clock
the personal
computer
show will be
on at
9 o'clock
just remember
if you listen
to the two
shows
you'll have
to do it
in reverse
see you
next week
and next
week
we'll have
the theme
queued up
too
so you'll
hear
you'll actually
hear the music
instead of
silence
like you do
now
I guess
it's kind
of
ah
thank you
studio
engineers
are so helpful
I can't
make a
call
we couldn't
get much
worse
but if they
could they
would
bomb
dilly bump
but the flesh
expect the worst
I hope that's
understood
bomb
dilly bump
as the gift
giving season
season comes
season comes
around
the WBAI
holiday
crafts
fair
returns
to celebrate
its
21st
birthday
beginning
December 4th
for three
weekends
prior to
Christmas
you can
share the
excitement
with the
contemporary
crafts
artists
at the
WBAI
holiday
crafts
fair
as they
exhibit
and sell
Fridays
from 5
to 9
p.m.
Saturdays
and Sundays
from 11
a.m.
to 6
p.m.
over 350
of America's
finest
artisans
from 25
states
will offer
thousands
of distinctive
and affordable
handmade items
including
jewelry
ceramics
wood
clothing
leather
and glass
each weekend
of the fair
features new
exhibitors
the fair
is held
on three
floors
of Columbia
University
grocery
Benimagem
because
I
know
is
the
first
permett
people
and
people
can
flash
large
widely
Cuz
I
afford
to
come
in
to
be
can
go
Esta
can