Off The Hook - 1992-12-09

[00:02.660 --> 00:04.540]  [SPEAKER_04]: ...who are caring.
[00:10.550 --> 00:14.710]  [SPEAKER_16]: Imagine my surprise...
[00:18.060 --> 00:23.280]  [SPEAKER_01]: Come to the Winter Festival, sponsored by New York in 94, for the Gay Games.
[00:23.500 --> 00:28.220]  [SPEAKER_01]: Saturday, December 12th at PS41, 11th Street and 6th Avenue.
[00:28.500 --> 00:39.800]  [SPEAKER_01]: This is a free event with 40 vendors, including holiday gift items, toys, crafts, political t-shirts, calendars, jewelry, a bake sale, and a raffle.
[00:40.040 --> 00:44.220]  [SPEAKER_01]: I hope to see you there, this Saturday, 10 until 5 p.m.
[00:44.580 --> 00:48.460]  [SPEAKER_01]: at PS41, 116th West 11th Street.
[00:48.780 --> 00:52.680]  [SPEAKER_01]: Support New York in 94, and enjoy a holiday march.
[00:54.420 --> 01:01.160]  [SPEAKER_09]: Don't need foolish to worry, though you're living in the 18th century.
[01:02.000 --> 01:06.800]  [SPEAKER_09]: You make love to each other on your place out on the sea.
[01:09.750 --> 01:11.110]  [SPEAKER_13]: And it's 10 o'clock.
[01:11.290 --> 01:13.230]  [SPEAKER_13]: You're listening to WBAI in New York.
[01:13.730 --> 01:19.250]  [SPEAKER_13]: If you're tuning in now for the Personal Computer Show, your timing is impeccable.
[01:19.250 --> 01:23.850]  [SPEAKER_13]: You've just missed it, because as of last week, the Personal Computer Show is on at 9 o'clock.
[01:24.750 --> 01:29.630]  [SPEAKER_13]: You're just going to have to put up with Off the Hook at 10 o'clock, because it's time for Off the Hook.
[01:36.030 --> 01:40.510]  [SPEAKER_07]: The Telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
[01:41.450 --> 01:46.050]  [SPEAKER_07]: I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a cost.
[01:46.630 --> 01:51.290]  [SPEAKER_07]: It couldn't get much worse, but if I could, they would.
[01:51.510 --> 01:54.170]  [SPEAKER_08]: But did they bump for the best, it's back for us?
[02:22.720 --> 02:41.920]  [SPEAKER_13]: And it's time once again for Off the Hook, the program that deals with all kinds of new and scary innovations in technology, and how they affect you, and how they affect the people around you, and what you can do to help or stop, if necessary.
[02:43.880 --> 02:55.100]  [SPEAKER_13]: We'll be talking about happenings in the hacker world that have national implications, as well as whatever else you have on your minds.
[02:55.180 --> 03:04.760]  [SPEAKER_13]: Our number is 212-279-3400, and we'll be taking your phone calls a little bit later on.
[03:07.520 --> 03:12.080]  [SPEAKER_13]: We've got some good news, actually, and this good news has to do with privacy.
[03:12.080 --> 03:21.600]  [SPEAKER_13]: Privacy is something that we hold pretty close to us here, and something that a lot of people don't see the importance of.
[03:21.940 --> 03:28.660]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, happy to say that at least one local university has seen the light.
[03:29.800 --> 03:43.400]  [SPEAKER_13]: And if you look in today's New York Times, you'll see that Rutgers University has agreed to stop displaying students' names, along with their social security numbers, on materials commonly circulated among students.
[03:44.540 --> 03:49.020]  [SPEAKER_13]: Now, most colleges, most colleges around here, your social security number is your name.
[03:49.020 --> 03:54.740]  [SPEAKER_13]: In fact, you go and look up a grade sheet, and you look at the social security number, you find out what your grade is.
[03:54.780 --> 03:55.680]  [SPEAKER_13]: You don't see your name there.
[03:55.680 --> 03:57.920]  [SPEAKER_13]: That number is very easy to get.
[03:58.140 --> 04:05.200]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's something that you put on everything, bank statements, motor vehicle applications, cable TV bills, you name it.
[04:05.500 --> 04:10.000]  [SPEAKER_13]: Your social security number is everywhere, so it's something that should be protected.
[04:10.660 --> 04:16.600]  [SPEAKER_13]: Actually, you should probably get a new one, because all of one has been given to so many people by now, but good luck trying that.
[04:16.600 --> 04:35.600]  [SPEAKER_13]: The out-of-court settlement, returning to the story, resolves a lawsuit filed in April by members of the Rutgers University Legislative Affairs Council and the Rutgers Chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union, which charged that the university was violating federal laws on privacy.
[04:36.240 --> 04:48.300]  [SPEAKER_13]: Students had been concerned that others could gain access to their academic records, or use another person's social security numbers to get a birth certificate, or any kind of other identification, or, God forbid, a credit card.
[04:49.420 --> 04:49.940]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yes.
[04:50.540 --> 04:51.720]  [SPEAKER_13]: Sounds like they've been listening.
[04:52.320 --> 04:56.600]  [SPEAKER_13]: In the settlement which was announced on Monday, the university agreed to take these steps.
[04:57.120 --> 05:02.980]  [SPEAKER_13]: And if you go to a university, maybe you should write this down and make sure your university takes these steps as well.
[05:04.020 --> 05:08.820]  [SPEAKER_13]: Prohibit the public posting of student grade information by name and social security number.
[05:09.720 --> 05:14.480]  [SPEAKER_13]: End the practice of mailing letters with student names and social security numbers on the outside.
[05:15.000 --> 05:18.040]  [SPEAKER_13]: Remove social security numbers from student meal cards.
[05:18.680 --> 05:23.020]  [SPEAKER_13]: Hold public hearings on student privacy twice a year for at least two years.
[05:23.340 --> 05:28.440]  [SPEAKER_13]: Allow students to use a number other than their social security number for student identification.
[05:29.520 --> 05:40.800]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, according to Joseph Lockhart, president of the Rutgers Chapter of the ACLU, this is an important victory for the notion that privacy concerns are real and that privacy must be protected.
[05:40.960 --> 05:49.720]  [SPEAKER_13]: This is also a victory for Rutgers University in that they can confidently state that they are moving to the forefront of protecting the privacy of students.
[05:50.660 --> 05:51.560]  [SPEAKER_13]: Judge H.
[05:51.760 --> 06:03.420]  [SPEAKER_13]: Lee Sarakin of Federal District Court issued an injunction in August barring the university from posting student names next to grades and ordered that class rosters not be circulated with social security numbers on them.
[06:04.080 --> 06:08.360]  [SPEAKER_13]: He said the university could continue using social security numbers for registration and billing.
[06:09.380 --> 06:10.240]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's a step.
[06:10.380 --> 06:18.120]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's not, uh, it's not the final step because those numbers, I mean, you have that number and you can do virtually anything to somebody.
[06:18.120 --> 06:21.020]  [SPEAKER_13]: You can change all kinds of bits of information.
[06:21.020 --> 06:22.400]  [SPEAKER_13]: You can affect their credit rating.
[06:23.100 --> 06:26.740]  [SPEAKER_13]: All takes are those magic nine numbers.
[06:28.260 --> 06:31.680]  [SPEAKER_13]: So, uh, perhaps they should be protected just a little bit more.
[06:32.440 --> 06:38.120]  [SPEAKER_13]: Here's an exciting bit of news from the, uh, also from the Times today.
[06:39.020 --> 06:43.120]  [SPEAKER_13]: Automatic tele-machines that use voice identification.
[06:44.540 --> 06:58.140]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yes, according to the article, perhaps as soon as early 1994, account holders may be talking back to their automated tele-machine and won't be, uh, uttering profanity and various other things you may currently say to your ATM.
[06:59.160 --> 07:00.980]  [SPEAKER_13]: AT&T and its computer unit.
[07:02.320 --> 07:04.020]  [SPEAKER_13]: Anybody know what this computer unit is called?
[07:05.680 --> 07:06.120]  [SPEAKER_13]: No?
[07:06.940 --> 07:07.380]  [SPEAKER_13]: Nobody?
[07:08.060 --> 07:14.960]  [SPEAKER_13]: We have a room filled with, with, with experts here and nobody knows what, what the, what the computer outfit of, of AT&T is called.
[07:15.200 --> 07:16.320]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, I'll, I'll give you a hint.
[07:16.480 --> 07:17.640]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's been around for quite some time.
[07:18.500 --> 07:19.900]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's been around for quite some time.
[07:20.000 --> 07:21.560]  [SPEAKER_13]: That's the sound of, of people thinking.
[07:22.340 --> 07:23.840]  [SPEAKER_13]: Um, you give up?
[07:23.960 --> 07:25.200]  Uh, Bell Corp?
[07:25.420 --> 07:27.240]  [SPEAKER_13]: Oh, no, no, no, no.
[07:27.240 --> 07:28.640]  [SPEAKER_13]: No, you're way off base there, no.
[07:29.120 --> 07:30.560]  [SPEAKER_13]: Um, NCR.
[07:32.060 --> 07:34.860]  [SPEAKER_13]: National Cass Registers, that's what it stood for, yeah?
[07:35.080 --> 07:35.660]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, it's true.
[07:35.700 --> 07:39.660]  [SPEAKER_13]: At some point over the last few years, they, they bought them out, and we were sleeping or something, and we missed it.
[07:39.740 --> 07:42.400]  [SPEAKER_13]: But, uh, yeah, AT&T's computer unit is NCR.
[07:42.780 --> 07:52.900]  [SPEAKER_13]: Uh, the world's largest maker of computerized bank tellers, and, uh, they're developing a new machine that identifies clients by voice rather than by passwords punched into a keyboard.
[07:53.080 --> 07:56.380]  [SPEAKER_13]: Rather, it's not an addition to passwords, it's instead of passwords.
[07:56.500 --> 07:57.380]  [SPEAKER_13]: I don't know about this.
[07:57.660 --> 08:01.420]  [SPEAKER_13]: Seems to me, with a good tape recorder, you can, you can master just about anything.
[08:01.860 --> 08:07.360]  [SPEAKER_13]: Uh, the new approach will do little to, uh, to LA security concerns around teller machines.
[08:07.860 --> 08:16.420]  [SPEAKER_13]: Uh, several well-publicized robberies and assaults have led to new laws around the country, including New York City, where security guards or video cameras will eventually be a requirement.
[08:16.840 --> 08:30.880]  [SPEAKER_13]: But the voice identification system being tested by NCR and AT&T will make it more difficult for thieves to use stolen ATM cards, most of which are now easily decipherable by machines that read the card's magnetic strip and therefore the password.
[08:32.400 --> 08:33.420]  [SPEAKER_13]: Is that true?
[08:33.600 --> 08:34.700]  [SPEAKER_13]: That's not true!
[08:34.900 --> 08:35.600]  [SPEAKER_13]: That's wrong!
[08:35.600 --> 08:36.900]  [SPEAKER_13]: That's, that's a crock!
[08:37.080 --> 08:37.900]  [SPEAKER_13]: Wait a minute, I'm being beeped.
[08:37.920 --> 08:38.520]  [SPEAKER_13]: Hold on, hold on.
[08:40.300 --> 08:41.000]  [SPEAKER_13]: Uh-oh.
[08:42.280 --> 08:43.020]  [SPEAKER_13]: Uh-oh.
[08:43.280 --> 08:44.960]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay, well, I can't deal with that right now.
[08:45.560 --> 08:48.040]  [SPEAKER_13]: There's plenty of police out there, so they don't need me.
[08:48.780 --> 08:49.540]  [SPEAKER_13]: Um, anyway.
[08:50.440 --> 08:57.780]  [SPEAKER_13]: Um, yes, that's not true because the, the ATM, the ATM card communicates with a computer somewhere in God knows where.
[08:58.340 --> 09:00.220]  [SPEAKER_13]: Uh, your password is not stored on the card.
[09:00.840 --> 09:03.720]  [SPEAKER_13]: This is the New York Times, page D3, and it's, it's wrong.
[09:04.120 --> 09:05.920]  [SPEAKER_13]: How could it be in the Times if it's wrong?
[09:07.360 --> 09:09.100]  [SPEAKER_13]: Ah, hi, get a grip, get a grip, hi.
[09:10.160 --> 09:11.660]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's not supposed to be like this though.
[09:11.820 --> 09:13.380]  [SPEAKER_13]: If it's in the Times, it's supposed to be true.
[09:13.580 --> 09:15.620]  [SPEAKER_13]: But anyway, uh, we'll, we'll overlook that.
[09:16.300 --> 09:29.020]  [SPEAKER_13]: Uh, the new NCR automated tellers, set to be widely tested by banks in mid-1993, use voice identification technology and smart cards that have no magnetic strips, both developed by AT&T Bell Laboratories.
[09:29.340 --> 09:36.360]  [SPEAKER_13]: Uh, the voice techniques are already being used to replace some of AT&T's long distance operators, especially in the use of calling cards.
[09:36.860 --> 09:43.200]  [SPEAKER_13]: Needless to say, they're not too popular with, uh, former long distance operators who probably will be forced to use these cards as well.
[09:43.880 --> 09:48.780]  [SPEAKER_13]: Uh, smart cards are credit card-like devices that resemble and function the floppy disks for computers.
[09:49.240 --> 09:55.500]  [SPEAKER_13]: Current versions of the card hold 24,000 bits of information in its memory, the equivalent of two typed pages.
[09:56.380 --> 10:09.740]  [SPEAKER_13]: NCR, which, uh, for those of you that question this, was acquired by AT&T in 1991, last year, has made more than 27,000 computerized tellers in the United States and more than 73,000 abroad.
[10:10.820 --> 10:11.360]  [SPEAKER_13]: Why?
[10:11.520 --> 10:14.380]  [SPEAKER_13]: They seem to be favoring, uh, ATMs abroad, I'll say that.
[10:14.520 --> 10:15.180]  [SPEAKER_13]: Three times as many.
[10:15.340 --> 10:23.580]  [SPEAKER_13]: If tests prove successful, old ATM machines would simply be refitted with new equipment rather than completely redesigned.
[10:23.760 --> 10:31.480]  [SPEAKER_13]: The voice identification technology will be available in the form of kits of speakers, microphones, smart card readers, and related gear.
[10:32.100 --> 10:34.280]  [SPEAKER_13]: The kit's price has not been set yet.
[10:34.580 --> 10:46.960]  [SPEAKER_13]: Previously, voice identification technology had been hampered by laborious maturing the template, uh, teaching the computer to identify the unique characteristics of a particular human voice so that it was not fooled by similar voices.
[10:47.500 --> 10:52.960]  [SPEAKER_13]: Sometimes this maturing could take 20 attempts with a person repeating phrases slowly and monotonously.
[10:53.200 --> 11:01.620]  [SPEAKER_13]: Such machines were also sometimes fooled by legitimate customers with colds under high stress or other conditions that affected their voice.
[11:02.340 --> 11:14.420]  [SPEAKER_13]: AT&T technology, said, uh, John Gray, assistant vice president of the NCR unit responsible for ATM machines, takes fewer than eight attempts to mature the machine and can be used by rattled, flu-stricken customers.
[11:14.860 --> 11:22.380]  [SPEAKER_13]: In addition, customers are encouraged to store up to seven random phrases which the new ATM will prompt the customer to say.
[11:24.140 --> 11:27.340]  [SPEAKER_13]: My voice is my passport or what have you.
[11:28.000 --> 11:32.620]  [SPEAKER_13]: With more random phrases, there is a high degree of security than with a single password.
[11:32.820 --> 11:45.920]  [SPEAKER_13]: For example, a customer may have stored Alexander Graham Bell, Watson, and red, white, and blue on his new ATM card, and the machine would randomly prompt the customer to say over a telephone attached to the ATM, one of the three phrases.
[11:46.720 --> 11:52.780]  [SPEAKER_13]: But I have this feeling that, uh, this kind of security is going to be, uh, prone to all, all types of mistakes.
[11:53.020 --> 11:57.400]  [SPEAKER_13]: And, uh, uh, uh, well, we'll all be involved in testing it out as it gets introduced.
[11:57.560 --> 11:58.380]  [SPEAKER_13]: I'm looking forward to it.
[11:58.460 --> 12:06.360]  [SPEAKER_13]: I'm looking forward to, uh, speaking to ATM machines and seeing just how, uh, how good a system it is and if it's any better than what we have right now.
[12:06.580 --> 12:09.660]  [SPEAKER_13]: It certainly won't be very secure for people that are being robbed.
[12:09.800 --> 12:15.480]  [SPEAKER_13]: I mean, all they'll have to do, uh, is, is, you know, submit to a robber's request to say certain words.
[12:15.980 --> 12:18.080]  [SPEAKER_13]: I don't think it's going to make that any more secure.
[12:18.220 --> 12:19.500]  [SPEAKER_13]: In fact, it might make it easier.
[12:19.740 --> 12:33.100]  [SPEAKER_13]: And if somebody, uh, all you have to do really is plant a tape recorder or maybe a camcorder in a, uh, in a little place where a vestibule where, uh, ATM machines are and, and watch and see who comes in and what words they say.
[12:33.560 --> 12:34.780]  [SPEAKER_13]: And then you have it on tape.
[12:35.480 --> 12:36.360]  [SPEAKER_13]: Do you take issue with that?
[12:36.360 --> 12:38.000]  [SPEAKER_20]: Yeah, it wouldn't- wouldn't work too well.
[12:38.440 --> 12:38.760]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, no.
[12:38.860 --> 12:40.740]  [SPEAKER_13]: I'm not saying... I'm not saying use those words.
[12:40.900 --> 12:42.160]  [SPEAKER_13]: I'm saying, you know, you would know.
[12:42.540 --> 12:43.060]  [SPEAKER_13]: I don't know.
[12:43.140 --> 12:44.420]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's just, you're gathering bits of information.
[12:44.560 --> 12:45.480]  [SPEAKER_13]: You know what somebody's words are...
[12:45.480 --> 12:47.220]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, the tape's not going to be high enough quality anyway.
[12:47.360 --> 12:48.580]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, I don't know if you've seen...
[12:48.580 --> 12:49.920]  [SPEAKER_13]: if you've seen camcorders these days.
[12:50.080 --> 12:51.120]  [SPEAKER_13]: They're moving up in the world.
[12:51.260 --> 12:54.540]  [SPEAKER_13]: But, uh, that, uh, that's something for the future.
[12:55.460 --> 12:55.860]  [SPEAKER_13]: I don't know.
[12:55.940 --> 12:56.340]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's interesting.
[12:56.580 --> 13:00.440]  [SPEAKER_13]: Technology keeps, uh, keeps moving ahead and sometimes it's moving behind.
[13:02.260 --> 13:02.580]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay.
[13:03.180 --> 13:04.920]  [SPEAKER_13]: That's, uh, from today's New York Times.
[13:06.360 --> 13:18.940]  [SPEAKER_13]: Last week we mentioned something about Blockbuster Video, and I feel I should mention something else, because we've gotten a couple of calls on this from people that say they've contacted Blockbuster and they deny the things that we said.
[13:19.140 --> 13:21.360]  [SPEAKER_13]: And let me reiterate what went on last week.
[13:21.460 --> 13:29.080]  [SPEAKER_13]: Last week we reported that Blockbuster was not going to stock any new Woody Allen films because of the controversy surrounding him.
[13:30.620 --> 13:33.780]  [SPEAKER_13]: Now, I had said that based on what I had heard on the radio.
[13:33.780 --> 13:37.840]  [SPEAKER_13]: I heard this on WCBS AM on Tuesday morning, last Tuesday morning.
[13:38.980 --> 13:42.640]  [SPEAKER_13]: Other people have told me they've seen it on TV and heard it on other radio stations.
[13:43.120 --> 13:46.300]  [SPEAKER_13]: Try as I might, I cannot get anybody to admit having aired that story.
[13:46.740 --> 13:51.520]  [SPEAKER_13]: CBS, for instance, says that if it's before yesterday, they have no record of it.
[13:51.600 --> 13:53.060]  [SPEAKER_13]: I swear to God that's what they say.
[13:54.020 --> 13:56.600]  [SPEAKER_13]: But it is something that was reported.
[13:56.600 --> 13:59.360]  [SPEAKER_13]: I don't know where, who started the story.
[13:59.760 --> 14:01.960]  [SPEAKER_13]: We're simply relaying what is already out there.
[14:02.780 --> 14:06.860]  [SPEAKER_13]: Blockbuster is saying that they aren't going to do such a thing, and that's good if it's true.
[14:07.340 --> 14:13.460]  [SPEAKER_13]: And if it is true, it's because people have responded and called them and demanded to know what's really going on.
[14:13.540 --> 14:22.500]  [SPEAKER_13]: But one thing that has not changed is our little demonstration last week where we were able to find out what films people have taken out simply by asking.
[14:23.100 --> 14:26.220]  [SPEAKER_13]: They keep it stored on their computer, and that's something to be really concerned about.
[14:27.020 --> 14:32.360]  [SPEAKER_13]: So if anyone out there, though, has heard that story about the Woody Allen thing, please let us know where you heard it.
[14:32.440 --> 14:37.880]  [SPEAKER_13]: And if you have a printed version of it, please forward that to us as well, as we'd like to be able to point to something.
[14:38.020 --> 14:43.800]  [SPEAKER_13]: But thanks to the people that are looking into this further, because we do need to know the facts.
[14:43.800 --> 14:50.780]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay, when we come back, we'll have some conversation about the hacker meeting in Washington, D.C.
[14:51.120 --> 14:55.880]  [SPEAKER_13]: that took place despite last month's upheaval by the Secret Service.
[14:57.000 --> 14:57.940]  [SPEAKER_13]: Stay tuned.
[15:25.100 --> 15:30.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: We're sorry, but you're no longer meaning or wanting or even caring about here.
[15:31.180 --> 15:35.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: Machines can do a better job than you, and this is what you get for asking questions.
[15:36.560 --> 15:39.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: The unions agree, sacrifices must be made.
[15:39.480 --> 15:41.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: Computers never go on strike.
[15:42.140 --> 15:45.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: To save the working man, you gotta put him out the pasture.
[15:47.320 --> 15:55.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's like you have to let you know, doesn't it feel fulfilled to know, that we the human being are now absent.
[15:55.700 --> 15:59.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: And there's nothing in hell we'll let you do about a super good deal.
[16:00.660 --> 16:02.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: Make a good deal.
[16:03.360 --> 16:09.140]  [SPEAKER_09]: How does it fail to get shit out of ass, and go in the cold like a piece of trash?
[16:36.870 --> 16:39.710]  [SPEAKER_06]: We're sorry, they just have to leave.
[16:39.710 --> 16:42.590]  [SPEAKER_06]: Unemployment runs out after just six weeks.
[16:42.810 --> 16:45.070]  [SPEAKER_06]: How does it feel to be a budget cut?
[16:45.290 --> 16:47.930]  [SPEAKER_06]: You're sniffing, you no longer exist.
[16:48.310 --> 16:50.630]  [SPEAKER_06]: Your numbers can merge from our central computer.
[16:50.910 --> 16:53.470]  [SPEAKER_06]: So we can read the facts, and see if you want me to run.
[16:53.850 --> 16:54.970]  [SPEAKER_06]: See our chart?
[16:55.190 --> 16:56.310]  [SPEAKER_06]: Unemployment's going down.
[16:56.510 --> 16:58.510]  [SPEAKER_06]: If that ruins your life, that's your problem.
[16:58.710 --> 16:59.850]  [SPEAKER_06]: Soup is good food.
[17:05.220 --> 17:07.540]  [SPEAKER_09]: We're all giving shit out of ass.
[17:07.840 --> 17:08.980]  [SPEAKER_09]: I'm done in the cold!
[17:32.420 --> 17:33.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: You're sorry.
[17:34.040 --> 17:38.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: We hate to interrupt, but it's against the law to jump off this bridge.
[17:38.260 --> 17:40.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: You'll just have to kill yourself somewhere else.
[17:41.020 --> 17:43.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: A tourist might see you, and we wouldn't want that.
[17:43.900 --> 17:46.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'm just doing my job, you know.
[17:46.380 --> 17:49.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: So say, Uncle, and we'll take you to the mental health zoo.
[17:49.480 --> 17:51.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: Force me, do you mind, now they can't go.
[17:51.820 --> 17:54.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: To leave in the outside world, looks great.
[17:55.060 --> 18:00.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: High-tech science research logs, it costs too much to bury all the dead.
[18:00.600 --> 18:06.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: The ventilated, diseased jock, surplus rats who can't be used anymore for the adult.
[18:07.020 --> 18:11.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: With no minister present, an aspiring corkscrew disposal unit.
[18:11.600 --> 18:15.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: Grounded in the stew, it flashed away, oh, chain!
[18:17.000 --> 18:17.880]  [SPEAKER_09]: We hope to have zoom!
[18:17.880 --> 18:22.020]  [SPEAKER_09]: We don't need you anymore, we don't need you anymore.
[18:22.100 --> 18:26.040]  [SPEAKER_09]: We make a good deal.
[18:27.420 --> 18:32.040]  [SPEAKER_09]: The hotздох мире'sorts do you shit out of ass, and turn in a hole.
[18:32.240 --> 18:33.460]  [SPEAKER_09]: Happy Lord, come and piece of trash.
[18:33.820 --> 18:36.100]  [SPEAKER_09]: Here we go, it's good enough to talk.
[18:36.520 --> 18:37.780]  [SPEAKER_09]: We throw you up on the model.
[18:55.070 --> 18:58.030]  [SPEAKER_06]: For us, we hear that the road needs to shut off.
[19:00.570 --> 19:03.350]  [SPEAKER_06]: At least we get a dignified climation.
[19:06.630 --> 19:08.670]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yet, it's 6 o'clock tomorrow morning.
[19:08.830 --> 19:09.810]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's time to get up.
[19:10.250 --> 19:14.030]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, oh, we got a little chord there.
[19:14.570 --> 19:19.770]  [SPEAKER_13]: That's the Dead Kennedys, who are now looked upon as mainstream hardcore, if you can believe that.
[19:19.770 --> 19:23.250]  [SPEAKER_13]: But, uh, and the song is Soup is Good Food.
[19:23.670 --> 19:27.990]  [SPEAKER_13]: If you were able to make out the lyrics, then, uh, then you were able to get something out of it.
[19:28.850 --> 19:31.170]  [SPEAKER_13]: And the, uh, significance to this program.
[19:31.570 --> 19:35.470]  [SPEAKER_13]: We're sorry, but you're no longer needed or wanted or even cared about here.
[19:35.970 --> 19:37.590]  [SPEAKER_13]: Machines can do a better job than you.
[19:37.970 --> 19:40.310]  [SPEAKER_13]: This is what you get for asking questions.
[19:40.750 --> 19:44.490]  [SPEAKER_13]: The unions agree, sacrifices must be made, computers never go on strike.
[19:44.970 --> 19:47.830]  [SPEAKER_13]: To save the working man, you've got to put him out to pasture.
[19:47.830 --> 19:49.730]  [SPEAKER_13]: Looks like we'll have to let you go.
[19:50.290 --> 19:57.350]  [SPEAKER_13]: Doesn't it feel fulfilling to know that you, the human being, are now obsolete, and there's nothing in hell we'll let you do about it?
[19:58.050 --> 19:59.990]  [SPEAKER_13]: We're sorry, you'll just have to leave.
[20:00.090 --> 20:02.750]  [SPEAKER_13]: Unemployment runs out after just six weeks.
[20:03.070 --> 20:04.690]  [SPEAKER_13]: How does it feel to be a budget cut?
[20:04.850 --> 20:05.490]  [SPEAKER_13]: You're snipped.
[20:05.850 --> 20:07.250]  [SPEAKER_13]: You no longer exist.
[20:07.870 --> 20:13.810]  [SPEAKER_13]: Your number's been purged from our central computer, so we can rig the facts and sweep you under the rug.
[20:13.990 --> 20:14.790]  [SPEAKER_13]: See our chart?
[20:15.210 --> 20:16.370]  [SPEAKER_13]: Unemployment's going down.
[20:16.370 --> 20:19.610]  [SPEAKER_13]: If that ruins your life, that's your problem.
[20:20.490 --> 20:24.150]  [SPEAKER_13]: We're sorry, we hate to interrupt, but it's against the law to jump off this bridge.
[20:24.330 --> 20:26.290]  [SPEAKER_13]: You'll just have to kill yourself somewhere else.
[20:26.410 --> 20:28.390]  [SPEAKER_13]: A tourist might see you, we wouldn't want that.
[20:29.390 --> 20:30.890]  [SPEAKER_13]: I'm just doing my job, you know.
[20:31.410 --> 20:34.290]  [SPEAKER_13]: So say uncle, and we'll take you to the mental health zoo.
[20:34.750 --> 20:36.810]  [SPEAKER_13]: Force feed you mind-melting chemicals.
[20:37.090 --> 20:39.190]  [SPEAKER_13]: Till even the outside world looks great.
[20:39.690 --> 20:43.490]  [SPEAKER_13]: In high-tech science research labs, it costs too much to bury all the dead.
[20:43.490 --> 20:47.790]  [SPEAKER_13]: Instead, the mutilated disease-injected surplus rats who can't be used anymore.
[20:48.330 --> 20:52.830]  [SPEAKER_13]: So, they're dumped with no minister present in a spiraling corkscrew.
[20:53.190 --> 20:56.350]  [SPEAKER_13]: Dispose all unit, grounded to stew and flushed away.
[20:58.550 --> 20:59.450]  [SPEAKER_13]: And, uh...
[20:59.990 --> 21:00.670]  [SPEAKER_13]: It goes on.
[21:01.790 --> 21:04.550]  [SPEAKER_13]: Oh, it's kind of depressing, but kind of, uh...
[21:05.170 --> 21:07.970]  [SPEAKER_13]: Right on the money as far as what we talk about here.
[21:10.030 --> 21:11.970]  [SPEAKER_13]: Mindless computers replacing people.
[21:12.810 --> 21:13.570]  [SPEAKER_13]: Oh, another beep.
[21:13.730 --> 21:15.470]  [SPEAKER_13]: You know, the beeps just keep coming in like clockwork.
[21:15.470 --> 21:15.950]  [SPEAKER_13]: Clockwork.
[21:18.230 --> 21:18.870]  [SPEAKER_13]: Oh, wow.
[21:19.630 --> 21:20.870]  [SPEAKER_13]: That's an interesting saga there.
[21:21.050 --> 21:22.490]  [SPEAKER_13]: That's going on as a whole other...
[21:22.490 --> 21:23.630]  [SPEAKER_13]: Do you have a vibrator beeper yet?
[21:23.630 --> 21:25.230]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, actually, I do have a vibrator.
[21:25.330 --> 21:27.110]  [SPEAKER_13]: I do have a vibrator beeper.
[21:27.330 --> 21:29.450]  [SPEAKER_13]: There's a special mode here, but, uh...
[21:29.450 --> 21:31.090]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, if that were to go off, uh...
[21:31.090 --> 21:31.870]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's the same number.
[21:32.110 --> 21:33.250]  [SPEAKER_13]: The exact same number.
[21:33.450 --> 21:34.230]  [SPEAKER_13]: You see that number there?
[21:34.670 --> 21:35.750]  [SPEAKER_13]: That's the same number.
[21:36.410 --> 21:42.930]  [SPEAKER_13]: If I were to have that one go off, I'd probably shout when it started vibrating because it would be kind of frightening, you know?
[21:43.150 --> 21:45.470]  [SPEAKER_13]: To have something that's on you suddenly start moving.
[21:45.850 --> 21:48.590]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's like you have a wild animal or something.
[21:49.570 --> 21:50.450]  [SPEAKER_13]: Anyway, um...
[21:50.450 --> 21:52.630]  [SPEAKER_13]: 212-279-3400 is our phone number.
[21:53.110 --> 21:55.370]  [SPEAKER_13]: We're here with Julian DeBell from The Village Voice.
[21:55.830 --> 21:57.350]  [SPEAKER_13]: Julian, let's see if your mic is working.
[21:57.850 --> 21:59.310]  [SPEAKER_14]: Testing 1, 2, 3.
[21:59.830 --> 22:00.170]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay.
[22:00.490 --> 22:01.550]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay, that did come across.
[22:01.730 --> 22:02.610]  [SPEAKER_13]: So your mic is working.
[22:03.290 --> 22:05.730]  [SPEAKER_13]: Julian DeBell is, as I said, from The Village Voice.
[22:05.750 --> 22:17.610]  [SPEAKER_13]: And, um, he went down to Washington, D.C., along with, uh, Phiber Optik, myself, and a couple other people, uh, to lend some support and show, uh, see what was going on at the Washington, D.C., 2600 meeting.
[22:17.970 --> 22:28.290]  [SPEAKER_13]: Uh, last month, if you recall, uh, the meeting was, uh, broken up by mall security people, uh, who forced people to submit the searches and, uh, take everybody's name.
[22:28.550 --> 22:31.130]  [SPEAKER_13]: They took everyone's name and, uh, ID and that kind of thing.
[22:31.310 --> 22:42.930]  [SPEAKER_13]: That in itself is bad enough, but, um, what we were able to, uh, discover, uh, through reporter Brock Meeks from, uh, Communications Daily was that the Secret Service was behind the whole thing.
[22:43.070 --> 22:45.870]  [SPEAKER_13]: And they had told mall security to do this.
[22:46.390 --> 22:50.450]  [SPEAKER_13]: So, uh, we went back this time to see what would happen.
[22:50.450 --> 22:56.010]  [SPEAKER_13]: And, uh, back to the exact same place, the Pentagon City Mall in, uh, Arlington, Virginia.
[22:56.590 --> 23:01.690]  [SPEAKER_13]: And, uh, well, Julian, you had a bit of a, uh, a bit of a run-in with the security people there.
[23:01.710 --> 23:03.570]  [SPEAKER_13]: Maybe, maybe it's best describing it in your words.
[23:04.110 --> 23:11.670]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, uh, no hackers got kicked out this time, as far as I know, but, uh, I did, and, and Brock Meeks, uh, did as well.
[23:11.790 --> 23:14.190]  [SPEAKER_14]: He was sort of the, uh, focal point of the encounter.
[23:14.370 --> 23:19.930]  [SPEAKER_14]: He was, uh, Brock was going around trying to, trying to talk to someone that was in charge.
[23:20.170 --> 23:26.730]  [SPEAKER_14]: Uh, there were plenty of people who obviously were working for the mall and obviously were keeping an eye on, on things.
[23:26.870 --> 23:30.190]  [SPEAKER_14]: You know, uh, security guards walking around with walkie-talkies.
[23:30.430 --> 23:41.430]  [SPEAKER_14]: Uh, uh, there was another gentleman, uh, on the second story looking down with a, a duffel bag, uh, and, and, out of which a video camera was poking pretty obviously.
[23:41.710 --> 23:45.530]  [SPEAKER_14]: I, I guess he was probably Secret Service or, or one of the, uh...
[23:45.530 --> 23:46.270]  [SPEAKER_14]: Now, wait till you see him.
[23:46.930 --> 23:47.810]  [SPEAKER_14]: He was on the second...
[23:47.810 --> 23:48.710]  [SPEAKER_14]: It was early in the evening.
[23:48.850 --> 23:48.890]  [SPEAKER_14]: Uh-huh.
[23:48.890 --> 23:55.410]  [SPEAKER_14]: There was a guy on the second floor and, uh, and, uh, some of the kids looked up and said, oh, look at that guy with the bag.
[23:55.550 --> 23:58.010]  [SPEAKER_14]: And, you know, well, hackers, you know, are kind of...
[23:58.450 --> 24:01.230]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, some of the other comments were that Santa Claus was a fed.
[24:01.370 --> 24:02.990]  [SPEAKER_14]: I mean, there was a Santa Claus walking around.
[24:03.390 --> 24:12.070]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, and there was that, there was that, that horrible children's chorus that was hitting us with carol after carol, right, in a really loud, abrasive way.
[24:12.130 --> 24:13.310]  [SPEAKER_13]: It was very surreal, I thought.
[24:13.430 --> 24:18.090]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, it was all, it was all pretty much out of Fireside Theater, the whole, the whole setup.
[24:18.410 --> 24:22.550]  [SPEAKER_14]: Um, so this guy was, but, and I looked up and I thought, oh, yeah, yeah.
[24:22.730 --> 24:30.890]  [SPEAKER_14]: But there was this guy sort of standing there with a large, oversized duffel bag hanging over the edge of the railing and peeking right out of it, plain as day.
[24:31.010 --> 24:32.430]  [SPEAKER_14]: It was a little, you know, video lens.
[24:32.630 --> 24:40.730]  [SPEAKER_14]: So, anyway, there was one guy, uh, an older gentleman, gray-haired gentleman, who appeared to be sort of in charge of the security guards.
[24:40.730 --> 24:47.350]  [SPEAKER_14]: And so Brock was, Brock was looking around to try and find him because he thought maybe he, you know, was sort of in charge.
[24:47.450 --> 24:51.390]  [SPEAKER_14]: He was trying to find Al Johnson, who he had talked to earlier, the head of security, who had told him.
[24:51.810 --> 24:55.830]  [SPEAKER_13]: The director of mall security who had actually said the Secret Service was involved.
[24:56.290 --> 24:57.850]  [SPEAKER_14]: So, but Al wasn't around.
[24:58.030 --> 24:59.610]  [SPEAKER_14]: So, failing that, we were going to find this guy.
[25:00.330 --> 25:08.310]  [SPEAKER_14]: Um, and I was just sort of tagging along, Brock being a much more seasoned reporter than I, and I'm, I just thought I'd go, you know, take some notes and see how it works.
[25:08.750 --> 25:15.710]  [SPEAKER_14]: So, uh, he spots this guy and the guy's staying there next to a security guard and, and Brock walks up to him and introduces himself.
[25:17.230 --> 25:24.270]  [SPEAKER_14]: Uh, the guy refuses to identify himself, refuses to, uh, uh, say what his relationship to the mall is.
[25:24.270 --> 25:28.490]  [SPEAKER_14]: Um, it's obviously that he's in some kind of management position.
[25:28.490 --> 25:33.570]  [SPEAKER_14]: We saw him going into the manager's office, uh, and overseeing security guards.
[25:34.130 --> 25:40.230]  [SPEAKER_14]: Uh, Brock tried to get him to make a statement about, uh, what had happened last month.
[25:40.230 --> 25:43.010]  [SPEAKER_14]: And the guy claimed he, he knew nothing about it.
[25:43.130 --> 25:46.490]  [SPEAKER_14]: We pointed out to him that it had been on the cover of the, the front page of the Washington Post.
[25:46.650 --> 25:48.130]  [SPEAKER_14]: He said, well, that's a surprise to me.
[25:48.290 --> 25:48.930]  [SPEAKER_14]: That's sort of standard.
[25:49.750 --> 25:58.210]  [SPEAKER_14]: Uh, so if, you know, if anyone was abused or detained, I certainly don't approve of that, and then Brock tried to get him to say, well, are you disapproving in what capacity?
[25:58.430 --> 26:06.310]  [SPEAKER_14]: And he wouldn't say, and he wouldn't say, and he just said, all I want is for people to come here and have a pleasant Christmas shopping experience.
[26:06.310 --> 26:15.890]  [SPEAKER_14]: I just want everybody to fill up their bags with goodies and, and just have a really good time, and I want the food court here to stay clean and neat, and that's all I, I really care about.
[26:15.990 --> 26:17.930]  [SPEAKER_14]: We don't want I want to arrest anybody, blah, blah, blah.
[26:19.230 --> 26:22.170]  [SPEAKER_13]: You ask him his views on genocide and why he were at it.
[26:22.210 --> 26:23.350]  [SPEAKER_14]: That, that didn't go into it.
[26:24.170 --> 26:32.650]  [SPEAKER_14]: Um, but he wouldn't identify himself, and, and, and, and Brock, you know, kept pushing him and saying, why, why don't you want to tell me, you know, why won't you tell me?
[26:32.710 --> 26:37.550]  [SPEAKER_14]: And the guy was like, I don't know who you are, and, and Brock said, I'm Brock Meeks from Communication Weekly.
[26:37.710 --> 26:40.330]  [SPEAKER_14]: He said, well, I'm Santa Claus, he said.
[26:40.650 --> 26:43.330]  [SPEAKER_14]: Um, so that was the closest we got to identifying the guy.
[26:43.490 --> 26:47.110]  [SPEAKER_13]: And he said this, well, the real Santa Claus was in full view downstairs, right?
[26:47.170 --> 26:48.830]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yes, clearly, clearly this was a lie.
[26:49.430 --> 26:51.550]  [SPEAKER_14]: Uh, we, we caught him red-handed in that.
[26:52.070 --> 26:57.890]  [SPEAKER_14]: Um, and, and at a certain point he just got fed up and, and said, well, sir, you, you were harassing me.
[26:58.230 --> 27:00.190]  [SPEAKER_14]: Um, I, I'd like you to leave.
[27:00.210 --> 27:04.450]  [SPEAKER_14]: At which point the security officer moved in and said, okay, you're going to leave the mall.
[27:04.610 --> 27:05.950]  [SPEAKER_14]: You've been harassing a shopper.
[27:06.850 --> 27:08.990]  [SPEAKER_14]: That was the rule, you know, harassing a shopper.
[27:09.070 --> 27:16.090]  [SPEAKER_14]: The guy was obviously not a shopper, but, um, and Brock was, I can't believe, you know, you're going to, you, do you have the right to arrest me?
[27:16.130 --> 27:20.850]  [SPEAKER_14]: He turned to a cop who was, an Arlington City police officer who was standing next to him and said, can he do this?
[27:20.930 --> 27:21.650]  [SPEAKER_14]: Can he kick me out?
[27:21.650 --> 27:25.810]  [SPEAKER_14]: He says, uh, he certainly can and if you don't leave I'm going to arrest you.
[27:26.290 --> 27:27.610]  [SPEAKER_13]: The Arlington policeman said that.
[27:27.610 --> 27:28.890]  [SPEAKER_14]: The Arlington policeman said that.
[27:35.350 --> 27:51.130]  [SPEAKER_14]: He got out of the mall and I went with him to sort of, you know, see, see how he was doing and, uh, um, at that, and, you know, we sort of recouped and, uh, and I headed back to go in and they said, no, you're not going back in either.
[27:51.350 --> 27:57.890]  [SPEAKER_14]: Two security guards at this point and I started arguing and say, well, I didn't, you know, I didn't, uh, I wasn't, he didn't ask me to leave.
[27:57.950 --> 27:58.490]  [SPEAKER_14]: What was I doing?
[27:58.630 --> 28:01.570]  [SPEAKER_14]: There was also, at the time there had been a whole crowd of people standing around.
[28:01.750 --> 28:06.870]  [SPEAKER_14]: A bunch of the, the kids from the meeting were, were gathered around and including another reporter from the Washington Post.
[28:08.170 --> 28:10.750]  [SPEAKER_14]: Um, and I said, look, you know, I was just standing in the crowd.
[28:11.250 --> 28:12.010]  [SPEAKER_14]: What was I doing?
[28:12.130 --> 28:14.470]  [SPEAKER_14]: They said, you, you're just not, we're not going to have a discussion about this.
[28:15.450 --> 28:16.270]  [SPEAKER_14]: We've asked you to leave.
[28:16.330 --> 28:16.890]  [SPEAKER_14]: You're going to leave.
[28:17.070 --> 28:23.670]  [SPEAKER_14]: At which point the police officer took out his billy club and started advancing on me and I decided to...
[28:23.670 --> 28:24.910]  [SPEAKER_13]: The, the real cop or the mall cop?
[28:24.930 --> 28:25.710]  [SPEAKER_13]: the real cop, yeah.
[28:25.710 --> 28:26.270]  [SPEAKER_13]: The one with a gun.
[28:26.310 --> 28:27.190]  [SPEAKER_14]: Not, not the rent-a-cop.
[28:27.630 --> 28:28.150]  [SPEAKER_14]: Uh-huh.
[28:28.410 --> 28:42.790]  [SPEAKER_14]: So, uh, you know, so, so what I got, came away from that was, was just a real sense of malls are, are, you know, they're, they are America with a, with a triple K.
[28:42.990 --> 28:48.290]  [SPEAKER_14]: I mean, they were, it's like this, they, when you go in there you have no rights.
[28:48.410 --> 28:49.890]  [SPEAKER_14]: They have the right to kick you out.
[28:49.990 --> 28:51.170]  [SPEAKER_14]: You don't have any recourse.
[28:51.590 --> 28:59.230]  [SPEAKER_14]: Um, you know, it, and, and, and these are, these, these malls are like taking over public space all over America.
[28:59.710 --> 29:07.410]  [SPEAKER_14]: And, they look like public space and they're conducive to things like meetings of, of dissident organizations or anything.
[29:07.690 --> 29:11.070]  [SPEAKER_14]: So, you know, they should be used for that, I think.
[29:11.250 --> 29:14.890]  [SPEAKER_14]: But, but the thing is, is you don't have any rights once you walk in there.
[29:15.030 --> 29:17.730]  [SPEAKER_14]: You give up your civil rights once you walk into a mall.
[29:18.530 --> 29:21.090]  [SPEAKER_13]: incredible, because it's considered private property.
[29:21.350 --> 29:21.530]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah.
[29:22.790 --> 29:23.410]  [SPEAKER_13]: That is something.
[29:23.770 --> 29:30.850]  [SPEAKER_13]: I mean, we don't have, you know, the equivalent of, of the, uh, town square, I suppose.
[29:31.150 --> 29:32.210]  [SPEAKER_13]: of past years.
[29:33.270 --> 29:34.510]  [SPEAKER_13]: So, we go to the mall.
[29:34.730 --> 29:34.910]  [SPEAKER_13]: Right.
[29:35.030 --> 29:36.770]  [SPEAKER_13]: But the mall's just not the same thing.
[29:37.850 --> 29:43.630]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, now, what you saw of the actual meeting itself, the hacker meeting, um, how did that seem to you?
[29:44.230 --> 29:46.730]  [SPEAKER_14]: Uh, it seemed, you know, very congenial.
[29:47.050 --> 29:48.830]  [SPEAKER_14]: Uh, it wasn't rowdy or anything.
[29:48.970 --> 29:51.410]  [SPEAKER_14]: It wasn't anybody, uh, disrupting.
[29:51.510 --> 29:56.010]  [SPEAKER_14]: It wasn't anybody, you know, ruining anybody's Christmas shopping experience.
[29:56.590 --> 30:03.530]  [SPEAKER_13]: Um, in fact, I'd have to say, I think there were probably about 75 people there throughout the course of, of the, uh, three hours.
[30:03.990 --> 30:10.110]  [SPEAKER_13]: Uh, we probably contributed a good thousand dollars to the mall by buying various things, you know, just in the food court alone.
[30:10.330 --> 30:10.470]  [SPEAKER_09]: Mm-hmm.
[30:11.070 --> 30:14.250]  [SPEAKER_13]: Uh, and, it really was a very well-behaved group.
[30:14.430 --> 30:16.270]  [SPEAKER_13]: I'm sure it always is a well-behaved group.
[30:16.390 --> 30:23.070]  [SPEAKER_13]: In fact, all the meetings we have throughout the country, uh, there are never any, any problems that I can, that I hear about anyway.
[30:23.730 --> 30:32.850]  [SPEAKER_13]: Uh, so it's, it's inconceivable that they would, uh, actually harass people like this just because, uh, the Secret Service suspects that they might, you know, know too much.
[30:32.850 --> 30:37.970]  [SPEAKER_13]: Or, and, and when you think of it, Julian, you were kicked out along with Brock because you were asking too many questions.
[30:38.690 --> 30:40.290]  [SPEAKER_13]: You were asking inconvenient questions.
[30:40.850 --> 30:47.130]  [SPEAKER_13]: And that's, uh, two things that authority figures hate the most is when people ask a lot of questions, which is what hackers do all the time.
[30:47.530 --> 30:52.390]  [SPEAKER_13]: And the other thing is, is when you start looking at them the way they look at you.
[30:52.770 --> 30:56.230]  [SPEAKER_13]: In other words, you mentioned that, that these people were walking around with cameras.
[30:56.630 --> 30:57.330]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, guess what?
[30:57.390 --> 31:00.850]  [SPEAKER_13]: The hackers were walking around with cameras too because we've got nothing to hide.
[31:01.210 --> 31:05.530]  [SPEAKER_13]: So why shouldn't other people be open to surveillance just the same way that we are?
[31:05.790 --> 31:09.950]  [SPEAKER_13]: When you take a picture of a security guard, however, you see the reaction.
[31:10.270 --> 31:12.070]  [SPEAKER_13]: They get very upset by that.
[31:12.250 --> 31:15.130]  [SPEAKER_13]: They don't want people to know, especially if they're undercover, obviously.
[31:17.030 --> 31:20.170]  [SPEAKER_13]: But I annoy them because I took a picture of their security camera once.
[31:20.370 --> 31:24.530]  [SPEAKER_13]: I just flashed a bulb in it and I could tell they didn't like that at all.
[31:24.590 --> 31:27.730]  [SPEAKER_13]: I don't know what they thought they were protecting by not having people take pictures of it.
[31:28.570 --> 31:31.290]  [SPEAKER_13]: But we must have had a good half dozen camcorders ourselves.
[31:31.490 --> 31:34.330]  [SPEAKER_13]: So anything that went on over there we probably captured.
[31:35.630 --> 31:37.250]  [SPEAKER_13]: And, you know, that's something, it's weird.
[31:37.370 --> 31:43.790]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's kind of a reaction to the harassment that is taking place all over the country in New York, San Francisco, Chicago, St. Louis.
[31:44.410 --> 31:48.790]  [SPEAKER_13]: I think our newest meeting was in Austin and Pittsburgh as well.
[31:48.930 --> 31:53.290]  [SPEAKER_13]: But people are walking around with all kinds of hidden microphones and camcorders.
[31:53.470 --> 31:55.070]  [SPEAKER_13]: We're playing the game, the same game.
[31:55.290 --> 31:59.930]  [SPEAKER_13]: You know, if they're going to be surveying us, we'll survey them right back.
[32:00.070 --> 32:01.570]  [SPEAKER_13]: And we'll probably do a better job of it.
[32:02.770 --> 32:06.290]  [SPEAKER_13]: You know, it's surprising.
[32:07.250 --> 32:13.190]  [SPEAKER_13]: I mean, to be honest, I thought they were incredibly stupid the way they went about this last time.
[32:13.430 --> 32:23.670]  [SPEAKER_13]: I mean, here we are meeting in a public place, you know, in front of everybody, and they're sneaking around, you know, trying to spy on us, not knowing everybody can see them.
[32:23.970 --> 32:24.210]  [SPEAKER_13]: Right.
[32:24.350 --> 32:25.870]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's really pretty silly.
[32:26.850 --> 32:44.770]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, for those that are interested, we have monthly meetings here in New York City at the Citicorp Center in, I said the P that time, in New York City, 53rd Street, between 3rd and Lexington Avenue, the lower level by the payphones, and again, a well-behaved group,
[32:44.970 --> 32:46.810]  [SPEAKER_13]: and we patronize the place.
[32:47.130 --> 32:48.810]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, usually, yeah, we're pretty well-behaved.
[32:48.930 --> 32:51.110]  [SPEAKER_13]: We're certainly better behaved than a lot of the other people there.
[32:52.150 --> 32:55.110]  [SPEAKER_13]: And we just trade information.
[32:55.310 --> 33:01.910]  [SPEAKER_13]: You know, we meet people, trade information, and talk freely and openly, kind of like what we're supposed to be doing.
[33:01.910 --> 33:05.750]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, that also raises an interesting point, too.
[33:06.390 --> 33:09.130]  [SPEAKER_14]: You talk about trading information at the malls.
[33:09.250 --> 33:20.390]  [SPEAKER_14]: I mean, a parallel I think of immediately is to the public networks where people post information and conversation with each other.
[33:22.070 --> 33:29.150]  [SPEAKER_14]: and that, too, is a public space, but it isn't really because a lot of the forums are owned by big companies.
[33:29.430 --> 33:37.070]  [SPEAKER_14]: Prodigy is owned by IBM and Sears, and you don't have First Amendment rights in those places.
[33:38.110 --> 33:48.150]  [SPEAKER_14]: And yet, they are the ones that are supplying this forum for people to talk and communicate and perhaps dissent, but that's not something they can really do.
[33:48.270 --> 33:52.130]  [SPEAKER_13]: Dissent, if it falls within their rules, you cannot talk about competitors, for instance.
[33:52.410 --> 33:55.470]  [SPEAKER_13]: You can't talk about things they consider to be obscene or immoral.
[33:56.210 --> 33:58.530]  [SPEAKER_13]: And it's a very good parallel.
[33:58.850 --> 34:08.290]  [SPEAKER_13]: You know, the malls are kind of being personified on the computer networks as well by these companies, Prodigy, CompuServe, Genie, what have you.
[34:09.290 --> 34:17.970]  [SPEAKER_13]: So, I think what we need is more individual control, individual access to the networks and, you know, to public areas as well.
[34:18.790 --> 34:22.550]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's interesting you know, you wouldn't think that computer hackers would be at the forefront of something like this.
[34:22.630 --> 34:25.430]  [SPEAKER_13]: You'd think we'd just be busy, you know, breaking into computer systems.
[34:25.510 --> 34:26.390]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, it's not like that.
[34:26.510 --> 34:27.910]  [SPEAKER_13]: You know, it's a lot bigger than that.
[34:28.050 --> 34:37.650]  [SPEAKER_13]: At first glance, and while I say at first glance, if you take a look at the Forbes magazine just came out, I haven't seen it yet, but I've heard nothing but bad things about it.
[34:38.210 --> 34:43.950]  [SPEAKER_13]: Kind of a knee-jerk reaction to hackers is that they are evil, that they're out to get you, that they're out to rip you off.
[34:44.450 --> 34:47.530]  [SPEAKER_13]: And if anything, listen to what you've heard in this particular program.
[34:47.770 --> 34:52.910]  [SPEAKER_13]: You know, we are spreading information of things that can only help if you're aware of them.
[34:53.050 --> 35:04.670]  [SPEAKER_13]: If you're aware of your rights, if you're aware of what freedom of speech is all about, if you're aware of how the phone company can rip you off, And how your name is stored in various places and your privacy is not a very sacred thing anymore.
[35:05.370 --> 35:07.510]  [SPEAKER_13]: You have only to benefit from that.
[35:07.870 --> 35:09.030]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay, we're going to take some phone calls.
[35:09.110 --> 35:11.010]  [SPEAKER_13]: 212-279-3400.
[35:11.450 --> 35:15.670]  [SPEAKER_13]: And I should also point out that we have a little bit of extra time tonight.
[35:15.870 --> 35:19.670]  [SPEAKER_13]: Because the news ran a little short, so we're going to be on until 12 minutes after 11.
[35:20.490 --> 35:22.190]  [SPEAKER_13]: And not a moment past that.
[35:22.570 --> 35:24.130]  [SPEAKER_13]: So give us a call.
[35:24.230 --> 35:26.250]  [SPEAKER_13]: 212-279-3400.
[35:26.250 --> 35:34.410]  [SPEAKER_13]: If you have any questions about anything you've heard on this show or in past shows or anything else that you want to bring up, just ask a couple of favors.
[35:34.990 --> 35:39.310]  [SPEAKER_13]: That you turn down your radio and that you keep it fairly short.
[35:39.310 --> 35:43.650]  [SPEAKER_13]: We don't want any long speeches and various things of that nature.
[35:44.010 --> 35:44.250]  [SPEAKER_13]: All right.
[35:44.450 --> 35:46.710]  [SPEAKER_13]: 212-279-3400.
[35:47.210 --> 35:47.910]  [SPEAKER_13]: Good evening.
[35:48.470 --> 35:49.750]  [SPEAKER_21]: Is this the on-hook of the show?
[35:50.130 --> 35:51.270]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, it's off the hook.
[35:51.390 --> 35:52.990]  [SPEAKER_13]: And I imagine that's the show you're trying to reach.
[35:53.130 --> 35:53.250]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah.
[35:53.550 --> 35:54.330]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay, you got it then.
[35:54.590 --> 35:54.870]  [SPEAKER_21]: Okay.
[35:56.250 --> 35:56.910]  [SPEAKER_13]: Go ahead.
[35:56.990 --> 35:57.830]  [SPEAKER_13]: You're on the air.
[35:58.070 --> 35:58.510]  [SPEAKER_21]: I am.
[35:58.650 --> 35:58.870]  [SPEAKER_21]: Okay.
[35:59.670 --> 36:02.090]  [SPEAKER_21]: Last week you were talking about Touch-Tone service.
[36:03.670 --> 36:04.150]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yes.
[36:04.430 --> 36:11.150]  [SPEAKER_21]: And the phone company back in 1983 had proposed a rate proposal.
[36:11.150 --> 36:13.230]  [SPEAKER_21]: They wanted to phase it out over five years.
[36:13.730 --> 36:16.950]  [SPEAKER_21]: So I wrote a letter to the Public Service Commission about three years ago.
[36:17.210 --> 36:23.270]  [SPEAKER_21]: They answered me that they considered it a premium service and it should pay for other people's service.
[36:24.090 --> 36:31.430]  [SPEAKER_21]: Now, Consumer Reports said on this subject that it's costing them more to provide the rotary service than it does the tone service.
[36:31.670 --> 36:32.230]  [SPEAKER_13]: Absolutely.
[36:32.770 --> 36:38.230]  [SPEAKER_21]: And I use a switchable phone to get around that charge from the phone company.
[36:38.490 --> 36:43.690]  [SPEAKER_21]: For the seven seconds of call, it's not worth paying them the money for the tone service.
[36:43.690 --> 36:44.650]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, absolutely.
[36:44.670 --> 36:46.330]  [SPEAKER_13]: And you're doing a smart thing by doing that.
[36:46.630 --> 36:48.830]  [SPEAKER_13]: But keep in mind, they're not providing you any service.
[36:48.990 --> 36:50.550]  [SPEAKER_13]: They're robbing you of service when they do that.
[36:51.230 --> 36:52.350]  [SPEAKER_21]: But they're using it...
[36:52.350 --> 36:57.550]  [SPEAKER_21]: I'd rather see if they want to keep rates down, let them take it out of the state income tax.
[36:57.630 --> 36:59.690]  [SPEAKER_21]: At least I can take that off of my federal income tax.
[36:59.690 --> 37:03.010]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, I mean, there's all kinds of solutions that we can offer.
[37:03.090 --> 37:07.270]  [SPEAKER_13]: But I think the basic fact is that they're robbing us blind by charging us for this.
[37:07.410 --> 37:08.470]  [SPEAKER_13]: And it's not the only thing.
[37:08.950 --> 37:10.610]  [SPEAKER_13]: Charging you to not be in the phone book.
[37:11.410 --> 37:12.770]  [SPEAKER_13]: Charging you for a call return.
[37:13.050 --> 37:14.590]  [SPEAKER_21]: My name and a fake name, so I get around that.
[37:14.670 --> 37:15.630]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay, that's smart, too.
[37:15.710 --> 37:17.410]  [SPEAKER_13]: If you use a fake name, you won't get charged.
[37:17.530 --> 37:19.270]  [SPEAKER_13]: And you'll also be, in effect, unlisted.
[37:20.310 --> 37:27.530]  [SPEAKER_21]: The only thing an unlisted number gives you is that in an emergency, if somebody wants to reach you and he forgets your number, the operator can get you.
[37:27.530 --> 37:29.690]  [SPEAKER_21]: Other than service, I don't need that service.
[37:29.830 --> 37:31.250]  [SPEAKER_21]: I don't need... we'll have to pay for that.
[37:31.510 --> 37:31.690]  [SPEAKER_13]: Uh-huh.
[37:32.910 --> 37:36.530]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, there's a lot of things, a lot of ways you can save money with the phone company.
[37:37.850 --> 37:46.790]  [SPEAKER_13]: Because, you know, the wire maintenance charge, Touch-Tone fee, various services that you can duplicate using your own equipment, it's just not worth it.
[37:46.970 --> 37:47.350]  [SPEAKER_13]: I know.
[37:47.650 --> 37:47.810]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah.
[37:48.170 --> 37:48.890]  [SPEAKER_13]: All right, thanks for calling.
[37:49.050 --> 37:49.510]  [SPEAKER_13]: Thank you.
[37:49.670 --> 37:49.950]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay.
[37:50.650 --> 37:52.450]  [SPEAKER_13]: Nothing like an educated consumer, right?
[37:54.390 --> 37:54.950]  [SPEAKER_13]: Good evening.
[37:55.110 --> 37:55.550]  [SPEAKER_11]: Good evening.
[37:55.550 --> 37:58.530]  [SPEAKER_11]: I agree 100% with that last caller.
[37:58.770 --> 37:59.090]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh-huh.
[37:59.190 --> 38:02.610]  [SPEAKER_11]: Not be paying... having to pay someone on the dollar.
[38:02.730 --> 38:07.950]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, I'd have to say, an educated consumer is not the phone company's best...
[38:07.950 --> 38:08.790]  [SPEAKER_13]: How's that phrase going?
[38:08.950 --> 38:09.230]  [SPEAKER_13]: Oh, yeah.
[38:09.450 --> 38:10.830]  [SPEAKER_13]: Educated consumer is our best...
[38:10.830 --> 38:13.910]  [SPEAKER_11]: I was wearing the phone company once, and they ran me all around, telling me to go here.
[38:14.030 --> 38:16.450]  [SPEAKER_11]: And then when I went there, they told me to go to another place.
[38:16.750 --> 38:18.790]  [SPEAKER_11]: The other place told me to go to the other place.
[38:18.910 --> 38:21.450]  [SPEAKER_13]: But you know where you can tell the phone company to go.
[38:21.590 --> 38:22.070]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, I mean...
[38:22.070 --> 38:23.910]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay, as long as you know that, that's all that matters.
[38:23.910 --> 38:26.250]  [SPEAKER_11]: I mean, as much as I like them, they're a big run-and-run.
[38:26.310 --> 38:27.490]  [SPEAKER_11]: I guess they're such a big company.
[38:27.670 --> 38:28.670]  [SPEAKER_13]: But you see, you like the people.
[38:28.810 --> 38:35.150]  [SPEAKER_13]: You like, like, Mrs. Schwartz or, you know, Mrs. Goodfellow that calls you and talks to you and is very nice to you.
[38:35.750 --> 38:38.050]  [SPEAKER_13]: But she represents the evil empire.
[38:38.270 --> 38:38.470]  [SPEAKER_13]: Right.
[38:38.590 --> 38:39.470]  [SPEAKER_13]: As long as you know that.
[38:39.830 --> 38:42.890]  [SPEAKER_11]: My question is, is there going to be a 2600 meeting January 1st?
[38:43.530 --> 38:45.590]  [SPEAKER_13]: Is that the first Friday of the month?
[38:45.830 --> 38:46.010]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah.
[38:46.190 --> 38:46.710]  [SPEAKER_13]: Oh, boy.
[38:46.950 --> 38:48.210]  [SPEAKER_13]: You know, I don't think that's ever happened before.
[38:48.210 --> 38:51.650]  [SPEAKER_13]: Or, you know, I guess we're committed to doing it.
[38:51.730 --> 38:53.410]  [SPEAKER_13]: But that's going to be a difficult day.
[38:54.450 --> 38:57.510]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, you know, most of the festivities take place on December 31st.
[38:58.590 --> 39:02.470]  [SPEAKER_13]: So, January 1st, it depends on how much festivities there were the night before.
[39:03.290 --> 39:05.370]  [SPEAKER_13]: I think, you know, I don't see any reason why not.
[39:05.590 --> 39:05.770]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay.
[39:05.910 --> 39:07.510]  [SPEAKER_11]: And I have one more cold cut discovery.
[39:07.830 --> 39:07.930]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay.
[39:07.930 --> 39:10.810]  [SPEAKER_11]: And I went into a wall balms and said I lost money in the cold cut phone.
[39:10.870 --> 39:12.810]  [SPEAKER_11]: They said, it's the city's payphone.
[39:13.050 --> 39:13.770]  [SPEAKER_11]: I mean...
[39:13.770 --> 39:14.950]  [SPEAKER_13]: The city's payphone?
[39:15.070 --> 39:16.210]  [SPEAKER_11]: I know that that was a lie.
[39:16.550 --> 39:17.310]  [SPEAKER_13]: That certainly is.
[39:17.310 --> 39:19.750]  [SPEAKER_13]: The city doesn't go around sticking private payphones in wall balms.
[39:20.230 --> 39:26.330]  [SPEAKER_11]: And also, I saw a New Jersey bell instruction card on a phone in Manhattan, on a cold cut phone in Manhattan.
[39:26.490 --> 39:28.010]  [SPEAKER_13]: I saw a bell of Pennsylvania one there.
[39:28.070 --> 39:31.330]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, people just, you know, they goof off and they stick the wrong cards.
[39:31.450 --> 39:32.730]  [SPEAKER_11]: Why do they malfunction sometimes?
[39:32.870 --> 39:43.130]  [SPEAKER_11]: I mean, like, I pick up the phone once, I dial a number, it gives me an unrestricted dial so when I hang up for a second, pick it up again, I do the same thing and it works fine the way it's supposed to work.
[39:43.830 --> 39:46.290]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, you know, they're not made all that well.
[39:46.810 --> 39:48.350]  [SPEAKER_11]: I find that with computers, too.
[39:48.790 --> 39:52.950]  [SPEAKER_11]: And did you try that 818-9901 and the 212?
[39:53.010 --> 39:53.950]  [SPEAKER_11]: I could comment on that one.
[39:53.990 --> 39:56.410]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, Phiber Optik tried it and he has a few words to say about it.
[39:56.530 --> 39:59.170]  [SPEAKER_20]: Yeah, that was in 212?
[39:59.450 --> 40:00.450]  [SPEAKER_20]: 818-9901.
[40:00.550 --> 40:05.370]  [SPEAKER_20]: Yeah, if you listen very, very carefully, it dials back 212-818.
[40:05.710 --> 40:06.090]  [SPEAKER_11]: Right.
[40:06.090 --> 40:08.510]  [SPEAKER_11]: What about the 914-769-9901?
[40:09.670 --> 40:09.990]  [SPEAKER_20]: Uh...
[40:09.990 --> 40:10.670]  [SPEAKER_20]: What was that one again?
[40:10.850 --> 40:11.910]  [SPEAKER_20]: Oh, didn't that just read it off?
[40:11.910 --> 40:13.430]  [SPEAKER_13]: That's the one that just read off your number.
[40:13.610 --> 40:16.550]  [SPEAKER_11]: Right, 914-769-9901.
[40:16.630 --> 40:19.630]  [SPEAKER_20]: Yeah, that just read off 914 and then the prefix, if I recall.
[40:20.010 --> 40:20.910]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, you should try that.
[40:20.990 --> 40:24.170]  [SPEAKER_20]: Yeah, and I commented last week that that was nothing abnormal.
[40:24.330 --> 40:27.330]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, the only abnormal thing about that was that I believe you said it was a digital exchange.
[40:27.330 --> 40:29.130]  [SPEAKER_20]: Right, or so he says.
[40:29.330 --> 40:31.430]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, well, how do you know it's a digital exchange, for one thing?
[40:31.850 --> 40:32.750]  [SPEAKER_20]: Because it doesn't click.
[40:33.810 --> 40:34.130]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well...
[40:34.130 --> 40:35.370]  [SPEAKER_13]: That's not the only way to tell.
[40:35.550 --> 40:36.870]  [SPEAKER_20]: That's not the universal symbol.
[40:37.230 --> 40:42.470]  [SPEAKER_11]: Oh, a digital switch is, it does not click on the first ring, and it does not click when it's picked up.
[40:42.590 --> 40:44.130]  [SPEAKER_13]: It could be a very clean analog switch.
[40:44.450 --> 40:44.590]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah.
[40:44.790 --> 40:46.410]  [SPEAKER_11]: Oh, there's no such thing as a clean...
[40:46.410 --> 40:49.650]  [SPEAKER_11]: The cleanest analog switch is one pop click.
[40:50.010 --> 40:50.250]  [SPEAKER_13]: Mm-hmm.
[40:50.650 --> 40:52.230]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, it sounds like you've done your research.
[40:52.390 --> 40:52.930]  [SPEAKER_13]: Right, now we'll...
[40:52.930 --> 40:53.810]  [SPEAKER_13]: We'll try it out.
[40:54.030 --> 40:54.830]  [SPEAKER_13]: We will try it out.
[40:54.970 --> 40:57.030]  [SPEAKER_11]: I did some number 5 ESS switch.
[40:57.690 --> 40:58.410]  [SPEAKER_11]: When I made...
[40:58.410 --> 41:03.050]  [SPEAKER_11]: Like, if I was to call you and you were on a number 5 ESS, if I was to let it ring, it would click off.
[41:04.670 --> 41:06.390]  [SPEAKER_13]: If you were to let it ring...
[41:06.390 --> 41:07.330]  [SPEAKER_11]: After a certain amount of...
[41:07.330 --> 41:08.110]  [SPEAKER_13]: After a certain amount of time.
[41:08.250 --> 41:09.510]  [SPEAKER_13]: You're right, it does click off.
[41:09.510 --> 41:11.510]  [SPEAKER_20]: Yeah, that's true of DMS 100 as well.
[41:11.670 --> 41:12.550]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, so what's your question?
[41:12.710 --> 41:13.410]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's 5 ESS.
[41:13.510 --> 41:14.070]  [SPEAKER_11]: Why is that?
[41:14.510 --> 41:15.010]  [SPEAKER_11]: Why is that?
[41:15.010 --> 41:17.610]  [SPEAKER_13]: Because the phone company isn't making money while you're ringing.
[41:17.970 --> 41:23.390]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's another example of how they're becoming more and more greedy, something that they would allow in the past, they're not allowing now.
[41:23.710 --> 41:28.450]  [SPEAKER_11]: Now, yeah, because on this panel, the number 1 ESS, like what you were on, you could call in.
[41:28.590 --> 41:30.730]  [SPEAKER_11]: I mean, if you were on a number 5 ESS...
[41:30.730 --> 41:31.790]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, you know, it's interesting...
[41:31.790 --> 41:33.010]  [SPEAKER_11]: I mean, nobody would get through.
[41:33.150 --> 41:42.630]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's interesting you should say that, because I'm sure sometime in 1993, the WBAI exchange of 279 will be cut over from a number 1 to a number 5, probably.
[41:42.630 --> 41:48.630]  [SPEAKER_13]: And then people calling us right now are going to be disconnected after ringing for, say, 25 times.
[41:48.770 --> 41:49.970]  [SPEAKER_13]: And that's going to be a major pain.
[41:50.370 --> 41:50.670]  [SPEAKER_11]: Really?
[41:50.950 --> 41:51.250]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah.
[41:51.570 --> 41:52.670]  [SPEAKER_13]: That's going to be a major pain.
[41:52.730 --> 41:53.950]  [SPEAKER_13]: I don't know what we're going to do about that.
[41:55.210 --> 41:58.030]  [SPEAKER_11]: And, um, all right, try that 769-99-01 thing.
[41:58.170 --> 41:58.790]  [SPEAKER_11]: And the 914.
[41:59.010 --> 42:00.270]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay, thanks for letting us know.
[42:00.350 --> 42:00.490]  [SPEAKER_13]: All right.
[42:00.730 --> 42:01.070]  [SPEAKER_13]: See ya.
[42:01.190 --> 42:02.590]  [SPEAKER_11]: See ya, 2600 or...
[42:02.590 --> 42:03.270]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay, whatever.
[42:03.550 --> 42:04.290]  [SPEAKER_13]: January 1st.
[42:04.370 --> 42:05.090]  [SPEAKER_13]: January 1st.
[42:05.510 --> 42:05.830]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay.
[42:07.210 --> 42:09.050]  [SPEAKER_13]: 212-279-3400.
[42:09.270 --> 42:10.250]  [SPEAKER_13]: Julian, you look amazed.
[42:11.330 --> 42:12.770]  [SPEAKER_13]: Our call is what you expected?
[42:12.950 --> 42:14.210]  [SPEAKER_13]: I'm having the time of my life here.
[42:14.590 --> 42:14.950]  [SPEAKER_13]: What?
[42:15.230 --> 42:17.130]  [SPEAKER_13]: The hacker culture is...
[42:17.730 --> 42:18.930]  [SPEAKER_13]: It defies words.
[42:19.790 --> 42:20.890]  [SPEAKER_13]: Just put it that way.
[42:22.150 --> 42:22.650]  [SPEAKER_13]: Anybody there?
[42:22.850 --> 42:23.070]  [SPEAKER_13]: Hold on.
[42:23.210 --> 42:23.530]  [SPEAKER_13]: Good evening.
[42:23.890 --> 42:24.170]  [SPEAKER_13]: Hi.
[42:24.450 --> 42:24.810]  [SPEAKER_13]: How you doing?
[42:25.150 --> 42:25.430]  [SPEAKER_05]: Fine.
[42:25.650 --> 42:29.890]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, I have the article in my hand that Emmanuel's talking about.
[42:30.150 --> 42:30.890]  [SPEAKER_13]: The Forbes article?
[42:31.090 --> 42:31.350]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yes.
[42:31.890 --> 42:32.190]  [SPEAKER_13]: Boy.
[42:33.430 --> 42:33.950]  [SPEAKER_13]: Uh...
[42:33.950 --> 42:35.610]  [SPEAKER_13]: You're holding it in your bare hands.
[42:36.130 --> 42:36.810]  [SPEAKER_13]: Bare hands.
[42:36.810 --> 42:37.130]  [SPEAKER_13]: Wow.
[42:37.370 --> 42:38.590]  [SPEAKER_13]: You're more trusting than I am.
[42:40.170 --> 42:41.790]  [SPEAKER_05]: You see what it says about him.
[42:42.010 --> 42:42.230]  [SPEAKER_13]: Uh-huh.
[42:42.290 --> 42:43.030]  [SPEAKER_13]: What does it say?
[42:43.490 --> 42:44.390]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, let me see.
[42:44.390 --> 42:48.930]  [SPEAKER_05]: He looks as if he's in his mid-30s and wear 1960s-style long black hair.
[42:50.170 --> 42:51.770]  [SPEAKER_13]: 60s-style long black hair.
[42:51.850 --> 42:53.970]  [SPEAKER_13]: So long black hair only is in the 60s.
[42:54.290 --> 42:55.410]  [SPEAKER_05]: No, he's got...
[42:55.410 --> 42:55.770]  [SPEAKER_13]: Ugh.
[42:56.310 --> 42:57.810]  [SPEAKER_05]: Bob-length, curly...
[42:58.730 --> 43:00.050]  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, I know what...
[43:00.050 --> 43:01.270]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's blasphemy, isn't it?
[43:01.270 --> 43:02.570]  [SPEAKER_05]: This is disgusting.
[43:02.730 --> 43:07.950]  [SPEAKER_05]: You're talking about fiber optic, who's very, well, related to me anyway, so...
[43:07.950 --> 43:09.030]  [SPEAKER_13]: Wait, say that again?
[43:09.250 --> 43:10.070]  [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, fiber optic.
[43:10.570 --> 43:11.850]  [SPEAKER_13]: You know fiber optic?
[43:12.130 --> 43:12.870]  [SPEAKER_05]: Related to me.
[43:13.330 --> 43:14.630]  [SPEAKER_13]: Fiber optic is related to you.
[43:15.390 --> 43:16.170]  [SPEAKER_13]: Is that what you're saying?
[43:16.350 --> 43:16.570]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yes.
[43:16.870 --> 43:18.690]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay, well, he doesn't seem to recognize you.
[43:19.230 --> 43:19.410]  Oh.
[43:21.310 --> 43:21.620]  Oh.
[43:22.620 --> 43:25.190]  [SPEAKER_13]: Sorry to say, I've never seen him look so confused.
[43:25.290 --> 43:25.950]  [SPEAKER_13]: In fact, he's speechless.
[43:26.190 --> 43:27.290]  [SPEAKER_20]: I'm at a loss for words.
[43:27.690 --> 43:30.730]  [SPEAKER_05]: Tell him to take off that black bandana and get it back.
[43:32.000 --> 43:33.600]  [SPEAKER_05]: Mark, I don't know what I'm talking about.
[43:34.250 --> 43:34.500]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay.
[43:35.810 --> 43:37.080]  [SPEAKER_13]: I certainly will.
[43:37.190 --> 43:37.890]  [SPEAKER_13]: Anything else?
[43:38.480 --> 43:38.790]  [SPEAKER_05]: No.
[43:39.580 --> 43:39.870]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay.
[43:40.370 --> 43:41.310]  [SPEAKER_05]: Can I talk to fiber optic?
[43:41.690 --> 43:42.560]  [SPEAKER_20]: I'm right here.
[43:42.900 --> 43:43.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: Hi, Mark.
[43:43.750 --> 43:44.020]  [SPEAKER_20]: Hi.
[43:45.290 --> 43:46.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: How are you doing?
[43:46.340 --> 43:46.820]  [SPEAKER_20]: I'm all right.
[43:47.820 --> 43:48.210]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's good.
[43:48.300 --> 43:49.230]  [SPEAKER_05]: You've got to see this thing.
[43:49.290 --> 43:49.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's hysterical.
[43:50.250 --> 43:51.400]  [SPEAKER_20]: Yeah, I'm sure it is.
[43:51.560 --> 43:52.190]  [SPEAKER_05]: Go ahead.
[43:52.380 --> 43:54.000]  [SPEAKER_14]: What's the gist of the article?
[43:54.170 --> 43:55.060]  [SPEAKER_14]: Is it pro...
[43:55.060 --> 43:57.580]  [SPEAKER_13]: I don't think it's very pro-hacker.
[43:57.730 --> 43:58.250]  [SPEAKER_13]: Is that right?
[43:58.250 --> 43:59.230]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's really...
[43:59.860 --> 44:00.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's disgusting.
[44:01.190 --> 44:02.230]  [SPEAKER_05]: Absolutely disgusting.
[44:02.500 --> 44:03.060]  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, it's like...
[44:03.640 --> 44:11.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: When they talk about fiber optic, they say what you were indicted for, blah, blah, blah, including members of MOT.
[44:12.860 --> 44:16.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: And at the end, it says fiber optic claims that he's innocent.
[44:16.250 --> 44:16.560]  [SPEAKER_05]: Claiming.
[44:26.830 --> 44:27.730]  [SPEAKER_20]: Very accusing.
[44:28.170 --> 44:28.450]  [SPEAKER_13]: Uh-huh.
[44:29.090 --> 44:32.270]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, we'll just have to drop by a newsstand and pick it up and...
[44:32.270 --> 44:33.210]  [SPEAKER_20]: And burn it.
[44:33.470 --> 44:33.710]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah.
[44:33.910 --> 44:35.530]  [SPEAKER_13]: Just have to be careful not to eat anything first.
[44:36.890 --> 44:39.250]  [SPEAKER_13]: All right, listen, thanks for sharing that with us.
[44:39.330 --> 44:40.070]  [SPEAKER_13]: Sure, no problem.
[44:40.310 --> 44:40.650]  [SPEAKER_13]: All right.
[44:40.910 --> 44:41.150]  [SPEAKER_13]: Bye.
[44:41.330 --> 44:41.630]  [SPEAKER_13]: Take care.
[44:43.110 --> 44:45.890]  [SPEAKER_13]: 212-279-3400 is our phone number.
[44:46.430 --> 44:47.090]  [SPEAKER_13]: Good evening.
[44:47.850 --> 44:48.230]  [SPEAKER_18]: Hi.
[44:48.530 --> 44:48.990]  [SPEAKER_13]: How are you doing?
[44:49.230 --> 44:49.570]  [SPEAKER_18]: Okay.
[44:50.010 --> 44:50.890]  [SPEAKER_18]: I have a question.
[44:51.070 --> 44:51.390]  [SPEAKER_13]: Go ahead.
[44:51.730 --> 44:51.950]  [SPEAKER_18]: Okay.
[44:52.010 --> 44:52.770]  [SPEAKER_18]: I'm actually not a question.
[44:52.810 --> 44:54.110]  [SPEAKER_18]: A little bit of data from last week.
[44:54.230 --> 44:57.110]  [SPEAKER_18]: You were talking about credit reporting.
[44:57.630 --> 44:58.030]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yes.
[44:58.170 --> 45:00.950]  [SPEAKER_18]: And said that TRW gives an annual free credit report.
[45:01.430 --> 45:03.990]  [SPEAKER_18]: The reason they do that, I believe it was a...
[45:03.990 --> 45:05.890]  [SPEAKER_18]: They came to an agreement with the Federal Trade Commission.
[45:05.890 --> 45:10.470]  [SPEAKER_18]: I know that there was a suit because they were giving inaccurate information to credit, to people.
[45:10.890 --> 45:14.070]  [SPEAKER_18]: So they were forced to give one annual free report.
[45:14.250 --> 45:17.090]  [SPEAKER_18]: Additionally, you would call that...
[45:17.090 --> 45:19.410]  [SPEAKER_18]: I don't know which credit reporting, but one company.
[45:19.530 --> 45:22.270]  [SPEAKER_18]: And they charge different amounts depending on...
[45:22.270 --> 45:23.170]  [SPEAKER_18]: for the credit report.
[45:23.330 --> 45:42.050]  [SPEAKER_18]: And that's because if someone uses your credit report to get information about you, some company, you know, for like a credit card or whatever, you have 60 days from their acting on that report to get a copy of that report for yourself for free so you can see what influenced their decision.
[45:42.050 --> 45:42.570]  [SPEAKER_13]: Correct.
[45:43.370 --> 45:47.610]  [SPEAKER_13]: For most people, that's a bit of a pain because you've got to make the move.
[45:47.690 --> 45:48.650]  [SPEAKER_13]: You've got to contact them.
[45:48.750 --> 45:49.550]  [SPEAKER_13]: You've got to send them a letter.
[45:49.930 --> 45:56.430]  [SPEAKER_13]: It doesn't sound like much, but, you know, when's the last time you sent a letter to a corporation typing out, you know, a request?
[45:56.810 --> 45:57.030]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah.
[45:57.190 --> 46:00.890]  [SPEAKER_13]: It should be easier for you to get it and less easy for other people to get it.
[46:01.010 --> 46:01.390]  [SPEAKER_13]: That's true.
[46:02.030 --> 46:03.190]  [SPEAKER_13]: It seems simple enough.
[46:03.190 --> 46:05.730]  [SPEAKER_13]: I don't know why, you know, they can't come up with this themselves.
[46:06.650 --> 46:07.530]  [SPEAKER_09]: Because they're companies.
[46:08.010 --> 46:20.830]  [SPEAKER_13]: Like, you know, my ideal world would have them sending you automatically by some kind of thing where you have to sign for it, basically a list of what they have on you and asking you to sign it and return it if it's correct.
[46:20.830 --> 46:22.590]  [SPEAKER_13]: And if it's not correct, make the corrections.
[46:23.150 --> 46:28.410]  [SPEAKER_13]: That way you have people that only authorize their credit, you know, to go through participating.
[46:28.410 --> 46:34.990]  [SPEAKER_13]: And if they don't authorize it, then, you know, they recognize they may not get credit in the future because they're not, you know, giving you the data.
[46:36.030 --> 46:40.930]  [SPEAKER_13]: But to just have all this information on people without asking them anything is wrong, I think.
[46:41.450 --> 46:41.710]  [SPEAKER_13]: I agree.
[46:42.250 --> 46:43.050]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay, thanks for calling.
[46:45.250 --> 46:46.890]  [SPEAKER_13]: 212-279-3400.
[46:46.990 --> 46:48.170]  [SPEAKER_13]: Julian, you ever seen your credit report?
[46:49.110 --> 46:56.470]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yes, as a matter of fact, courtesy of a trio of teenage hackers who just...
[46:57.450 --> 47:01.990]  [SPEAKER_14]: They asked for my social security number, which is easy enough to get whether I gave it to them or not.
[47:01.990 --> 47:07.150]  [SPEAKER_14]: And they returned the next day with my credit report.
[47:07.410 --> 47:09.110]  [SPEAKER_14]: And did you feel violated?
[47:09.350 --> 47:12.150]  [SPEAKER_14]: I felt used.
[47:12.150 --> 47:13.270]  [SPEAKER_14]: I felt cheap.
[47:13.270 --> 47:14.070]  [SPEAKER_14]: I felt tawdry.
[47:14.250 --> 47:16.350]  [SPEAKER_14]: I felt very cheap because my credit report was pathetic.
[47:16.350 --> 47:17.230]  [SPEAKER_14]: But you always feel like that, right?
[47:17.310 --> 47:17.470]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah.
[47:17.990 --> 47:21.050]  [SPEAKER_13]: The thing is, you never got it before.
[47:21.410 --> 47:25.470]  [SPEAKER_14]: No, I had never seen it until these boys made it available.
[47:25.530 --> 47:26.210]  [SPEAKER_14]: Did you know it existed?
[47:27.110 --> 47:29.350]  [SPEAKER_14]: I had some inkling that it did exist.
[47:30.150 --> 47:32.990]  [SPEAKER_13]: Which credit report was it, TRW or TransUnion?
[47:33.110 --> 47:35.350]  [SPEAKER_14]: I assume it was... yeah, I think it was TRW.
[47:36.190 --> 47:39.130]  [SPEAKER_13]: Because one credit report does not the whole story tell.
[47:39.290 --> 47:39.870]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, right.
[47:39.930 --> 47:42.730]  [SPEAKER_13]: There's lots of them and there's lots of other files that we all have.
[47:42.930 --> 47:44.850]  [SPEAKER_13]: And those are only the good ones among us.
[47:45.330 --> 47:48.530]  [SPEAKER_13]: The bad ones among us have even more files than various other agencies.
[47:49.910 --> 47:55.410]  [SPEAKER_13]: And not only is it hard to find out what those files are, it's almost impossible to find out the names of the agencies.
[47:56.230 --> 47:58.050]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's a long and difficult web.
[47:58.050 --> 47:58.930]  [SPEAKER_13]: Good evening.
[48:01.170 --> 48:01.570]  [SPEAKER_13]: Hello?
[48:02.470 --> 48:03.870]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay, let's try another one.
[48:04.970 --> 48:05.610]  [SPEAKER_13]: Good evening.
[48:05.970 --> 48:07.370]  Oh, good evening.
[48:07.750 --> 48:08.150]  [SPEAKER_10]: Hello?
[48:08.350 --> 48:09.150]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yes, can you speak up, please?
[48:09.630 --> 48:10.150]  [SPEAKER_10]: Um, yeah.
[48:10.510 --> 48:12.710]  [SPEAKER_10]: I kind of tuned in the middle of this.
[48:12.870 --> 48:16.570]  [SPEAKER_10]: But, uh, who meets at City Corp and when?
[48:16.730 --> 48:17.370]  [SPEAKER_10]: What time of day?
[48:17.610 --> 48:19.710]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay, these are, uh, computer hackers.
[48:20.190 --> 48:20.850]  [SPEAKER_10]: 2600 Club.
[48:21.010 --> 48:22.170]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, it's not really a club.
[48:22.290 --> 48:23.650]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's just 2600 is the magazine.
[48:24.130 --> 48:35.350]  [SPEAKER_13]: And what we do at the magazine is encourage people to get together, spread ideas, talk, meet each other, and not run around and hide, uh, but be open about, you know, what they're interested in.
[48:35.510 --> 48:42.130]  [SPEAKER_13]: Because, um, the way it's been portrayed in the past, people have, have been sort of pressured into, into going underground.
[48:42.130 --> 48:45.330]  [SPEAKER_13]: And, and we don't think that's right, because they're not doing anything wrong.
[48:45.530 --> 48:46.510]  [SPEAKER_09]: Actually, it's not safe.
[48:46.910 --> 48:52.350]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's not safe, but if people, if you treat people like criminals, they will begin to act like criminals, and these people are not criminals.
[48:52.670 --> 48:56.810]  [SPEAKER_10]: You know, listening to what you're talking about, the more public you are, the safer you are, actually.
[48:57.210 --> 48:58.370]  [SPEAKER_13]: The more public you are, right.
[48:58.550 --> 48:58.690]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
[48:59.110 --> 49:04.590]  [SPEAKER_10]: But, uh, so you gave the location to City, City Corp, and you, and, uh, but I don't know when.
[49:04.790 --> 49:06.110]  [SPEAKER_13]: Oh, yeah, you know, I didn't say the time.
[49:06.230 --> 49:09.130]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's, um, first Friday of the month from 5 to 8 p.m.
[49:09.350 --> 49:10.610]  [SPEAKER_13]: in the lobby of the City Corp Center.
[49:11.330 --> 49:15.530]  [SPEAKER_13]: And there's also meetings that take place in Philadelphia, Cambridge, oh, I didn't say the P, did I?
[49:15.650 --> 49:16.050]  [SPEAKER_13]: City Corp.
[49:16.470 --> 49:26.950]  [SPEAKER_13]: Uh, and, uh, Cambridge, Massachusetts, Philadelphia, Washington, D.C., uh, Pittsburgh, Chicago, St. Louis, Austin, uh, Los Angeles, San Francisco, and I think Boise, Idaho.
[49:27.250 --> 49:28.450]  [SPEAKER_13]: And Munich, Germany, too.
[49:28.610 --> 49:29.530]  [SPEAKER_10]: What part of the lobby?
[49:30.070 --> 49:32.230]  [SPEAKER_13]: Uh, in New York, it's, um...
[49:32.230 --> 49:32.950]  [SPEAKER_10]: Of the City Corp.
[49:33.110 --> 49:33.710]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's, it's where?
[49:33.830 --> 49:34.830]  [SPEAKER_13]: In front of Alfredo's.
[49:34.890 --> 49:36.190]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, in front of Alfredo's, the Mexican place.
[49:36.190 --> 49:36.590]  [SPEAKER_13]: Oh, okay.
[49:36.890 --> 49:37.610]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, that part.
[49:37.770 --> 49:37.950]  [SPEAKER_13]: All right.
[49:38.150 --> 49:39.490]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's, it's kind of hard to miss us.
[49:40.430 --> 49:40.750]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.
[49:40.990 --> 49:41.470]  [SPEAKER_09]: Thanks a lot.
[49:41.590 --> 49:41.830]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay.
[49:42.250 --> 49:42.590]  [SPEAKER_13]: Take care.
[49:43.090 --> 49:46.410]  [SPEAKER_13]: And we don't, we don't really have any problem with, uh, mall security people there.
[49:46.550 --> 49:48.230]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, it's not a mall, really, but, uh...
[49:48.230 --> 49:50.290]  [SPEAKER_14]: There's, there's never been any hassles at City Corp?
[49:50.650 --> 49:51.370]  [SPEAKER_13]: No, not really.
[49:51.430 --> 49:52.130]  [SPEAKER_13]: Not that I can think of.
[49:52.230 --> 49:53.390]  [SPEAKER_13]: Once they told us to stop smoking.
[49:54.350 --> 49:57.270]  [SPEAKER_13]: But, uh, that, that potentially, uh, you know...
[49:57.270 --> 49:58.230]  [SPEAKER_13]: It was the way they said it.
[49:58.330 --> 50:02.030]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, that, that potential crisis was resolved pretty quickly when we stopped smoking.
[50:02.790 --> 50:08.390]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, things like that, you know, you can resolve with a little diplomacy, but, um, I don't know, they're pretty pig-headed down in D.C.
[50:08.630 --> 50:08.950]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah.
[50:08.950 --> 50:12.730]  [SPEAKER_13]: I think right now they're, they're content to, to stand back.
[50:13.130 --> 50:18.850]  [SPEAKER_13]: As long as nothing horrible happens, and they saw that nothing horrible happens this past, uh, this past meeting, they're not going to bother us.
[50:19.310 --> 50:23.930]  [SPEAKER_13]: But the Secret Service is still going to be out there, and other agencies will be out there watching in various ways.
[50:24.410 --> 50:25.070]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's frightening.
[50:25.210 --> 50:29.950]  [SPEAKER_13]: When you think of, uh, teenage kids having to deal with this, it's, um...
[50:29.950 --> 50:35.170]  [SPEAKER_13]: I have to wonder what kind of impression they're getting of the way the government works, the way our society functions.
[50:35.170 --> 50:48.110]  [SPEAKER_13]: Uh, when you have grown men in suits and ties and little microphones running around spying on them, you know, trying to record their faces, their names, their voices, and all they're interested in is, is how a computer system works.
[50:48.490 --> 50:51.130]  [SPEAKER_13]: You know, it's, it's rather, rather weird.
[50:52.470 --> 50:56.110]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay, let's take another phone call, 212-279-3400.
[50:56.230 --> 50:59.630]  [SPEAKER_13]: We do have an extra 10 minutes or so tonight, because the news ran a little short.
[51:00.230 --> 51:02.390]  [SPEAKER_13]: So, um, keep that in mind.
[51:03.370 --> 51:04.090]  [SPEAKER_13]: Good evening.
[51:04.850 --> 51:05.370]  [SPEAKER_19]: Oh, hi.
[51:06.050 --> 51:06.990]  [SPEAKER_13]: Am I on the air?
[51:07.090 --> 51:07.790]  [SPEAKER_13]: You're on the air now.
[51:08.110 --> 51:12.070]  [SPEAKER_19]: Okay, I have, I have a very interesting, um, topic I wanted to talk about.
[51:12.690 --> 51:19.130]  [SPEAKER_19]: I am a, uh, owner of a private payphone, and I don't know if you've heard lately what's been going on on Long Island.
[51:19.430 --> 51:20.030]  [SPEAKER_13]: What's that?
[51:20.030 --> 51:31.470]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, they've been using this access number, and they've been able to call Pakistan, and it gets charged to the private payphone owner's number.
[51:31.670 --> 51:36.570]  [SPEAKER_19]: So we've been getting, like, $1,000, $2,000 charges.
[51:36.950 --> 51:37.410]  [SPEAKER_09]: Uh-huh.
[51:38.370 --> 51:41.730]  [SPEAKER_19]: And if you'd like, I can give you the number, and you can play with it.
[51:41.970 --> 51:43.070]  [SPEAKER_19]: It's very interesting.
[51:43.070 --> 51:55.510]  [SPEAKER_19]: If I try to dial it myself, you, it, it, you have to do it a few times, and then it gives this beep, as if you have to put, like, um, some kind of a black box or something into it.
[51:56.270 --> 51:56.710]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[51:56.850 --> 52:08.190]  [SPEAKER_19]: But what we did is we put a record, not a tape recorder, but a thing that prints out the numbers, and we've been catching what these numbers are, and the phone company doesn't seem to want to do anything about it.
[52:08.190 --> 52:10.050]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, you know, what you're running...
[52:10.050 --> 52:14.250]  [SPEAKER_13]: Now, when you say you own a payphone, are you, uh, leasing this phone from somebody?
[52:14.490 --> 52:16.430]  [SPEAKER_19]: No, this is a co-cut line.
[52:16.710 --> 52:16.970]  [SPEAKER_13]: Uh-huh.
[52:17.230 --> 52:18.710]  [SPEAKER_13]: So is it your physical phone?
[52:18.830 --> 52:19.410]  [SPEAKER_13]: You own the phone.
[52:19.770 --> 52:20.030]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay.
[52:20.290 --> 52:22.030]  [SPEAKER_13]: Did, did you buy the phone from somebody?
[52:22.370 --> 52:22.690]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.
[52:23.270 --> 52:25.610]  [SPEAKER_13]: Now, is this a problem within the phone itself?
[52:25.930 --> 52:26.290]  [SPEAKER_19]: No.
[52:26.670 --> 52:29.050]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's not, it's a, it's a, it's a phone number that they're able to call?
[52:29.150 --> 52:35.410]  [SPEAKER_19]: Yeah, it's an actual 800 number, and if you call that 800 number, you get a beep.
[52:35.410 --> 52:36.190]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay.
[52:37.190 --> 52:46.230]  [SPEAKER_19]: And someone is able to, with some kind of a black box, because what I did is I put one of those machines that, when they dial, it, it prints out on a printer.
[52:46.630 --> 52:46.790]  [SPEAKER_19]: Right.
[52:46.910 --> 53:02.390]  [SPEAKER_19]: So, all these calls, what they did was they put in the 800 number, then they accessed AT&T, because it showed the AT&T access code, then it called a country code, and, you know, they went through it that way.
[53:02.550 --> 53:04.450]  [SPEAKER_13]: Now, how is it getting billed back to your number?
[53:04.450 --> 53:07.670]  [SPEAKER_19]: Because I don't know how it's getting billed back.
[53:07.830 --> 53:11.610]  [SPEAKER_19]: You see, we've been calling AT&T, they don't know what's going on.
[53:11.670 --> 53:15.990]  [SPEAKER_19]: We've been calling New York Tell, they don't know, they don't want to admit to what's going on.
[53:16.190 --> 53:22.530]  [SPEAKER_19]: That's why we put that printer in, in, in the line, so we could find out what, how they're doing it.
[53:22.690 --> 53:28.730]  [SPEAKER_13]: So, what, you're, you're not seeing somebody dialing direct overseas, you're seeing someone dial direct through this 800 number.
[53:28.730 --> 53:29.290]  [SPEAKER_19]: Exactly.
[53:29.550 --> 53:37.730]  [SPEAKER_19]: In other words, our payphone, if you try to dial direct, like using a country code, they'll just say, this number cannot be dialed.
[53:37.810 --> 53:38.510]  [SPEAKER_13]: Let me ask you something.
[53:38.690 --> 53:45.530]  [SPEAKER_13]: Are you sure that they're not calling this 800 number, waiting for it to hang out, hang up, and then getting an unrestricted dial tone when it does?
[53:45.950 --> 53:46.790]  [SPEAKER_19]: No, no.
[53:47.150 --> 53:49.430]  [SPEAKER_19]: It, all it gives you is this tone.
[53:49.970 --> 53:55.690]  [SPEAKER_19]: I've played with it, and sometimes it hangs up on you, and I've noticed like they'll try it over and over and over again.
[53:56.070 --> 53:56.470]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay.
[53:56.710 --> 54:04.830]  [SPEAKER_19]: And even when we went and put lid on it, and gotten rid of any long distance service, they can still get through with the 800 number.
[54:05.030 --> 54:07.570]  [SPEAKER_19]: And it's the same number they use over and over again.
[54:08.110 --> 54:10.230]  [SPEAKER_19]: You know, I could give it to you, you could play around with it.
[54:10.230 --> 54:11.950]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, we can, we can certainly do that.
[54:12.050 --> 54:13.830]  [SPEAKER_13]: Now, what does the phone company say?
[54:13.910 --> 54:15.530]  [SPEAKER_13]: Are they charging you, and you're not...
[54:15.530 --> 54:19.950]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, see, now the phone company is claiming right now that don't worry about it.
[54:20.050 --> 54:26.950]  [SPEAKER_19]: Then we talked to AT&T about it, and they said, well, it's going on all over the entire island, we're taking care of it.
[54:27.090 --> 54:32.470]  [SPEAKER_19]: But there seems to be a fear somehow that, you know, we might get sued anyway.
[54:33.130 --> 54:38.230]  [SPEAKER_19]: And somehow they, nobody seems to be able to figure out how it's happening.
[54:38.390 --> 54:42.630]  [SPEAKER_19]: The phone company does not want to admit that they know what's going on.
[54:43.490 --> 54:46.710]  [SPEAKER_19]: AT&T doesn't admit they know what's going on.
[54:47.190 --> 54:54.210]  [SPEAKER_19]: We've, the payphone association, a friend of mine went to the payphone association, they said they all know what the number is.
[54:54.390 --> 54:59.450]  [SPEAKER_19]: They presented it to the phone company, and they, they act like, well, we don't know what's going on.
[54:59.650 --> 55:02.090]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay, why don't you give us a number, and we'll, we'll see what we can figure out.
[55:02.270 --> 55:10.310]  [SPEAKER_19]: Okay, the number is 1-800, or just 800, whatever, 9-9-7-7-000.
[55:10.970 --> 55:13.690]  [SPEAKER_13]: Sounds like a pretty, uh, business-like number there.
[55:13.950 --> 55:15.210]  [SPEAKER_13]: 9-9-7-7-000.
[55:15.550 --> 55:19.950]  [SPEAKER_19]: Now, you could call it three times, and it'll hang up on you, and the fourth time you'll hear a beep.
[55:20.510 --> 55:29.810]  [SPEAKER_19]: You can't do anything with the beep, but obviously, uh, when I looked at the, um, the numbers that he was dialing, somehow he was able to get, get it to work.
[55:30.650 --> 55:36.870]  [SPEAKER_19]: And we have a suspicion that he might have gotten this number from the phone company, or may have worked for the phone company.
[55:36.990 --> 55:39.250]  [SPEAKER_19]: I don't know how else he could, uh, figure this out.
[55:39.450 --> 55:46.870]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay, well, we'll have, uh, some of our experts look into it, and I'm sure WBAI listeners will look into it as well, and hopefully in a week or so, we'll, uh, we'll have some answers.
[55:46.970 --> 55:56.470]  [SPEAKER_13]: In the meantime, though, make sure that, uh, you don't get stuck with any of these bills because of someone else's, uh, incompetence, whether it be the payphone manufacturer, the long-distance company, or your local phone company.
[55:56.510 --> 55:58.470]  [SPEAKER_19]: Oh, you see, we checked everything out, okay?
[55:58.710 --> 55:59.550]  [SPEAKER_19]: We tried everything.
[55:59.690 --> 56:04.050]  [SPEAKER_19]: The payphone itself does not allow... We went through AT&T with this thoroughly.
[56:04.270 --> 56:05.030]  [SPEAKER_19]: You know, we called them.
[56:13.350 --> 56:14.150]  [SPEAKER_19]: Uh-huh.
[56:14.450 --> 56:25.330]  [SPEAKER_19]: Okay, the only problem is, you see, the payphones do not have the capability of restricting 800 numbers because the payphone assumes that an 800 number is gonna be a free call.
[56:25.410 --> 56:36.890]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, you know, most people assume that as well, and there are, and we're gonna document this in upcoming shows, uh, there are an increasing number of cases where 800 calls are routed to things that charge you money, which, uh, I think is something we should not stand for.
[56:37.110 --> 56:37.550]  [SPEAKER_13]: I agree.
[56:37.910 --> 56:42.490]  [SPEAKER_13]: I don't see how you're gonna be able to weed out 800 numbers that charge against 800 numbers that don't charge.
[56:42.990 --> 56:58.770]  [SPEAKER_19]: And even, let's, let's assume even that they do have an 800 number that they charge, then they should at least publish the number before it's gonna come out, which means that we can go back to our supplier, get a new rate chip, and, and, and cut that out.
[56:58.930 --> 57:06.090]  [SPEAKER_19]: But this number here was non-published, nobody knows about it, the phone company doesn't know about it, AT doesn't, AT&T.
[57:06.290 --> 57:13.670]  [SPEAKER_19]: We only found it out by, you know, putting the printer on and then looking at the bill and, and, and matching the numbers, you know.
[57:13.890 --> 57:18.950]  [SPEAKER_19]: Even on the bill, it doesn't show the access code, it only shows the actual long-distance number that was...
[57:18.950 --> 57:20.210]  [SPEAKER_13]: What, your printer should show that?
[57:20.390 --> 57:22.510]  [SPEAKER_19]: Yeah, the printer does, but the bill doesn't.
[57:22.650 --> 57:22.870]  [SPEAKER_13]: Right.
[57:24.050 --> 57:24.450]  [SPEAKER_13]: Um...
[57:24.450 --> 57:35.230]  [SPEAKER_20]: We should note, though, that since the number was given out on the air, that, uh, all these listeners shouldn't be calling it from home because they're unknowingly giving these strangers their, uh, home telephone number just by dialing it.
[57:35.270 --> 57:35.630]  [SPEAKER_13]: That's true.
[57:36.070 --> 57:36.330]  [SPEAKER_13]: Right.
[57:36.550 --> 57:37.850]  [SPEAKER_13]: So, you gotta be careful about that.
[57:38.130 --> 57:40.190]  [SPEAKER_13]: Um, we'll look into this.
[57:40.290 --> 57:45.170]  [SPEAKER_13]: I know there are a couple of, uh, interesting things floating around out there, and this might be one of them.
[57:45.330 --> 57:45.990]  [SPEAKER_13]: Let me ask you something, though.
[57:45.990 --> 57:51.290]  [SPEAKER_13]: As somebody who operates a, um, a private payphone, um, what kind of things do you block?
[57:51.390 --> 57:54.950]  [SPEAKER_13]: Because I know that's a big bone of contention among a lot of people is blocking things that go on.
[57:54.950 --> 57:54.950]  Yeah.
[57:55.430 --> 58:06.530]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, we, we basically, the only things that we block is the stuff that the phone company gives us to block, and that is the 900 numbers, the, what is it, the 950-976?
[58:06.570 --> 58:06.810]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay.
[58:06.910 --> 58:07.990]  [SPEAKER_13]: Why do you block 950?
[58:08.230 --> 58:11.990]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, because, well, I don't know what, I don't know if we block 950.
[58:12.210 --> 58:14.670]  [SPEAKER_19]: It's just happening to me in the book, or I forget about 950.
[58:15.910 --> 58:22.910]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, you mean the phone company gives you that option to block, and you see, the reason I don't like that is because 950 is a very useful service, and it doesn't cost anything to call.
[58:22.910 --> 58:32.310]  [SPEAKER_19]: Oh, then we probably don't have it blocked, because I think, I, you know, I'm not sure, but I was just reading this over here, but I, the ones I do know is 900, 976.
[58:32.850 --> 58:33.210]  [SPEAKER_13]: Right.
[58:33.850 --> 58:34.750]  [SPEAKER_19]: You know, 770.
[58:34.910 --> 58:35.590]  [SPEAKER_19]: You know, 770 calls.
[58:35.850 --> 58:35.990]  [SPEAKER_13]: Right.
[58:36.110 --> 58:36.890]  [SPEAKER_13]: That, that makes sense.
[58:37.150 --> 58:38.310]  [SPEAKER_19]: You know, that's about it.
[58:38.450 --> 58:46.790]  [SPEAKER_19]: You know, basically the ones that charge, because, you know, we have no control over how much they charge for these, for these 900 numbers.
[58:46.930 --> 58:49.050]  [SPEAKER_19]: You know, if we could, then I wouldn't mind.
[58:49.230 --> 58:52.970]  [SPEAKER_19]: I just would, you know, include it in whatever the phone charges.
[58:53.130 --> 58:57.010]  [SPEAKER_19]: But everybody has such a range of, you know, you can't.
[58:57.210 --> 58:57.510]  [SPEAKER_13]: Right.
[58:58.090 --> 58:58.830]  [SPEAKER_13]: Let me ask you something.
[58:58.970 --> 59:03.310]  [SPEAKER_13]: When you, when you connect the call, do you block the touchstones from that point?
[59:03.390 --> 59:04.550]  [SPEAKER_13]: Do you allow people to still use them?
[59:05.090 --> 59:11.330]  [SPEAKER_19]: No, we allow people to, you still use them so that they can access their, you know, answering machine and stuff like that.
[59:11.410 --> 59:12.770]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, it sounds like you're running a good system.
[59:12.910 --> 59:13.570]  [SPEAKER_13]: It really does.
[59:13.730 --> 59:22.730]  [SPEAKER_13]: I mean, I've met payphones that do horrible things, like they allow 950 access and they cut out the touchstones, or they, you know, they charge and absorb it in the mount.
[59:22.970 --> 59:37.290]  [SPEAKER_19]: Yeah, well, see, I remember you mentioning that during one of the times that I've listened to you, and I wanted to mention that not all of the private payphone owners out there are trying to, like, you know, screw the people, you know.
[59:37.490 --> 59:47.370]  [SPEAKER_19]: We, we have our rates as, as near as possible to the phone companies, and we have it try to work as much as it would, you know, for New York Telephone.
[59:47.770 --> 59:55.090]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, and it's also something that a lot of people don't realize is that you've got to go through your main competitor to get service in the first place, which is New York Telephone.
[59:55.150 --> 59:55.870]  [SPEAKER_13]: Exactly, yeah.
[59:56.010 --> 59:58.910]  [SPEAKER_13]: That's, uh, it's awfully difficult to do, and of course they don't give you the best deal.
[59:59.130 --> 01:00:02.610]  [SPEAKER_19]: Plus, we don't charge, like, for, for, um, 411.
[01:00:02.610 --> 01:00:04.750]  [SPEAKER_19]: I've heard a lot of people are doing that, you know.
[01:00:05.210 --> 01:00:05.330]  Uh-huh.
[01:00:05.490 --> 01:00:07.090]  [SPEAKER_13]: But don't you get charged for 411?
[01:00:07.310 --> 01:00:18.750]  [SPEAKER_19]: No, because they, they fought it in court, and, you know, because New York Telephone doesn't charge for 411 on their payphones, they fought it in court to allow us not to charge for 411.
[01:00:19.070 --> 01:00:19.290]  [SPEAKER_13]: Great.
[01:00:19.630 --> 01:00:20.470]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay, that's a good deal.
[01:00:20.490 --> 01:00:28.010]  [SPEAKER_19]: So, we were charging it, but then when we won, when we won the, the case, then, you know, we all changed it back to it free now.
[01:00:28.170 --> 01:00:29.590]  [SPEAKER_19]: I know a lot of people haven't changed it.
[01:00:29.590 --> 01:00:35.550]  [SPEAKER_13]: And that should apply for the entire 132 ladder for Nassau-Suffolk, um, and, uh, 914 as well.
[01:00:35.890 --> 01:00:36.110]  [SPEAKER_09]: Right.
[01:00:36.550 --> 01:00:37.350]  [SPEAKER_13]: All right, listen, good luck.
[01:00:37.470 --> 01:00:38.410]  [SPEAKER_13]: We'll let you know what happens.
[01:00:38.610 --> 01:00:39.410]  [SPEAKER_13]: Uh, we'll play around with this.
[01:00:39.470 --> 01:00:39.550]  [SPEAKER_13]: Thanks a lot.
[01:00:39.730 --> 01:00:40.410]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay, take care.
[01:00:40.570 --> 01:00:40.930]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, bye.
[01:00:41.610 --> 01:00:46.630]  [SPEAKER_13]: And, uh, yeah, I've, I've, I've said in the past that not all private payphones are bad.
[01:00:47.650 --> 01:00:53.930]  [SPEAKER_13]: And those good ones should be fighting all the more to make sure the bad ones are weeded out, because private payphones can be a good thing.
[01:00:53.930 --> 01:01:00.890]  [SPEAKER_13]: It can be good to have competition, but, uh, the way things are now, it's, uh, most people see a private payphone and they just sort of steer away from it.
[01:01:01.730 --> 01:01:04.530]  [SPEAKER_13]: Or, if you want to call Pakistan, sometimes they go right towards it.
[01:01:05.010 --> 01:01:05.470]  [SPEAKER_13]: I don't know.
[01:01:05.510 --> 01:01:07.370]  [SPEAKER_13]: We'll, we'll find out what, uh, what the deal with that is.
[01:01:08.570 --> 01:01:09.470]  [SPEAKER_13]: Good evening, you're on.
[01:01:09.910 --> 01:01:11.570]  [SPEAKER_04]: Hi, I have a question for Dr. Kako.
[01:01:12.650 --> 01:01:13.650]  [SPEAKER_13]: No, no, no, no.
[01:01:13.650 --> 01:01:14.890]  [SPEAKER_13]: You're about, uh, two hours late.
[01:01:15.210 --> 01:01:15.390]  [SPEAKER_13]: Sorry.
[01:01:24.810 --> 01:01:25.210]  [SPEAKER_13]: Hello?
[01:01:25.430 --> 01:01:25.950]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, go ahead.
[01:01:27.030 --> 01:01:27.430]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[01:01:27.890 --> 01:01:28.270]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm on?
[01:01:28.430 --> 01:01:28.930]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, you are.
[01:01:29.710 --> 01:01:30.070]  [SPEAKER_02]: Hello?
[01:01:30.390 --> 01:01:31.210]  [SPEAKER_13]: Uh, not anymore, you know.
[01:01:31.350 --> 01:01:33.450]  [SPEAKER_13]: We, we, we only, our patience only lasts so long.
[01:01:33.530 --> 01:01:33.790]  [SPEAKER_13]: Good evening.
[01:01:34.270 --> 01:01:40.210]  [SPEAKER_02]: Hi, uh, I have a question about how some of these New York telephone custom calling features, uh, work together with each other.
[01:01:40.570 --> 01:01:47.070]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, let's say you call me, and I have my phone calls forwarded to my friend's house, and he has caller ID.
[01:01:47.730 --> 01:01:49.110]  [SPEAKER_02]: What, what does he see in his...
[01:01:49.110 --> 01:01:50.170]  [SPEAKER_13]: That's a very good question.
[01:01:50.270 --> 01:01:51.690]  [SPEAKER_13]: And one that I'm dying to try myself.
[01:01:51.690 --> 01:01:55.750]  [SPEAKER_13]: And I'd like to know if other people out there can try this, and tell me what, what happens.
[01:01:56.350 --> 01:01:57.110]  [SPEAKER_13]: Uh, I mean...
[01:01:57.110 --> 01:01:59.850]  [SPEAKER_02]: Because who's all call restrict will take precedence there, you know?
[01:02:00.030 --> 01:02:00.770]  [SPEAKER_13]: That's a great question.
[01:02:00.890 --> 01:02:10.870]  [SPEAKER_13]: You call, you call somebody, you harass somebody, and then you forward your line to, uh, to say their biggest enemy, who isn't you, and then they call return your harassing call.
[01:02:10.990 --> 01:02:12.830]  [SPEAKER_13]: Do they get their biggest enemy, or do they get you?
[01:02:12.950 --> 01:02:13.310]  [SPEAKER_09]: Oh, right.
[01:02:13.410 --> 01:02:14.190]  [SPEAKER_09]: That's another good question.
[01:02:14.290 --> 01:02:21.050]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, so, uh, these are, you know, questions of, uh, of the new electronic phone systems that we have to, uh, we have to ask ourselves.
[01:02:21.050 --> 01:02:27.130]  [SPEAKER_02]: Also, I have a comment about something similar to the, uh, Blockbuster account information, uh, thing that you, you presented last week.
[01:02:27.270 --> 01:02:27.490]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yes.
[01:02:27.810 --> 01:02:30.490]  [SPEAKER_02]: Um, I'm a customer of Quix Cable, BQ Quix Cable.
[01:02:30.970 --> 01:02:34.450]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, uh, I called their automated, uh, bill checking service.
[01:02:34.550 --> 01:02:37.650]  [SPEAKER_02]: You can find out how much you owe when your last payment was made and all that.
[01:02:37.810 --> 01:02:37.970]  [SPEAKER_02]: Mm-hmm.
[01:02:37.970 --> 01:02:40.330]  [SPEAKER_02]: And all they ask for is your telephone number.
[01:02:40.930 --> 01:02:52.610]  [SPEAKER_02]: And now, each, uh, each, uh, subscriber already has, like, a 15-digit unique ID number that they could use for that purpose, but they, they decide to use the phone number instead.
[01:02:53.090 --> 01:02:56.510]  [SPEAKER_13]: So you're saying, all I have to do is call BQ Quix, is that what it's called?
[01:02:56.670 --> 01:02:56.810]  [SPEAKER_13]: Right.
[01:02:57.090 --> 01:02:59.610]  [SPEAKER_13]: And give them a phone number, and then I'll be able to do what?
[01:02:59.850 --> 01:03:07.090]  [SPEAKER_02]: You'll be able to find out, well, it would be helpful if you knew the person's, you could connect the, the, the phone number to the person already, like, if you...
[01:03:07.090 --> 01:03:11.830]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, there's this great big book that's published that has a whole list of numbers and names next to them.
[01:03:12.050 --> 01:03:12.470]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, there you go.
[01:03:12.530 --> 01:03:17.290]  [SPEAKER_02]: You could find out the list of pay-per-view movies and what, what the bill status is and how much you owe and what...
[01:03:17.290 --> 01:03:19.710]  [SPEAKER_13]: So you're saying, I can call BQ Quix or whatever.
[01:03:19.970 --> 01:03:20.010]  [SPEAKER_13]: Right.
[01:03:20.010 --> 01:03:25.490]  [SPEAKER_13]: I can simply give them a phone number and a name, and they will tell me what movies that person has watched.
[01:03:25.630 --> 01:03:26.570]  [SPEAKER_02]: You won't even have to say it.
[01:03:26.590 --> 01:03:28.970]  [SPEAKER_02]: You'll put it in the, in the, uh, the computer.
[01:03:29.110 --> 01:03:30.750]  [SPEAKER_02]: It'll read it back to you, ask you if that's right.
[01:03:30.990 --> 01:03:35.670]  [SPEAKER_02]: If it's right, you say, you press one for yes, and it can tell you anything about your account.
[01:03:36.450 --> 01:03:37.210]  [SPEAKER_13]: Is that so?
[01:03:37.430 --> 01:03:37.550]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah.
[01:03:37.690 --> 01:03:38.710]  [SPEAKER_13]: And what's the phone number for that?
[01:03:39.150 --> 01:03:44.230]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, that's 358, that's 718-358-0900.
[01:03:44.590 --> 01:03:52.370]  [SPEAKER_02]: On the preview guide on, um, the BQ, you know, uh, cable, uh, you know, the preview guide, uh, channel, they, they run ads for that all the time.
[01:03:52.750 --> 01:03:53.090]  [SPEAKER_13]: Mm-hmm.
[01:03:54.070 --> 01:03:54.510]  [SPEAKER_02]: But, um...
[01:03:54.510 --> 01:03:55.350]  [SPEAKER_13]: That's, uh, that's something.
[01:03:55.450 --> 01:03:56.610]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay, we're going to check into that as well.
[01:03:56.610 --> 01:03:58.510]  [SPEAKER_13]: I've got a lot of checking into, to do, and, uh...
[01:03:58.510 --> 01:04:05.010]  [SPEAKER_02]: I have spoken to the management there, though, and I, and I suggest that since they already have the account number for each subscriber, why don't they use that?
[01:04:05.150 --> 01:04:05.910]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's a much longer number.
[01:04:06.050 --> 01:04:08.970]  [SPEAKER_02]: And the guy said, it's a good suggestion, he'll, he'll get back to me on that.
[01:04:09.070 --> 01:04:10.410]  [SPEAKER_02]: That was just a week ago, let's see.
[01:04:10.590 --> 01:04:10.830]  [SPEAKER_13]: Uh-huh.
[01:04:10.970 --> 01:04:11.770]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, we'll see what happens.
[01:04:11.870 --> 01:04:13.590]  [SPEAKER_13]: I can't believe they wouldn't think of that on their own, though.
[01:04:14.430 --> 01:04:16.610]  [SPEAKER_13]: All right, well, thanks for, uh, bringing that to our attention.
[01:04:16.770 --> 01:04:17.070]  [SPEAKER_13]: Thanks a lot.
[01:04:17.110 --> 01:04:17.770]  [SPEAKER_13]: Keep your eyes open.
[01:04:17.950 --> 01:04:18.090]  Thanks.
[01:04:18.750 --> 01:04:21.070]  [SPEAKER_13]: Uh, I should point out, it's three minutes after 11 o'clock.
[01:04:21.070 --> 01:04:22.710]  [SPEAKER_13]: You're listening to WBAI New York.
[01:04:22.950 --> 01:04:28.550]  [SPEAKER_13]: Uh, the WBAI Evening News rebroadcast will be on at 12 minutes after 11 o'clock.
[01:04:28.730 --> 01:04:39.470]  [SPEAKER_13]: The reason for that is that it ran a little bit short, and Robert Knight is coming on at 11.45, so, uh, we just want to make sure the schedule runs nice and smoothly, so we're using this extra time to hear from some more of our listeners.
[01:04:40.190 --> 01:04:42.070]  [SPEAKER_13]: So, uh, let's see who's out there.
[01:04:43.430 --> 01:04:44.130]  [SPEAKER_13]: Good evening.
[01:04:44.890 --> 01:04:51.470]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, hello, I was wondering, um, I'm, I'm trying to do some little, uh, radio and telephone projects, electronic projects.
[01:04:51.630 --> 01:04:52.870]  [SPEAKER_13]: And you're on a cordless phone, right?
[01:04:53.050 --> 01:04:53.310]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah.
[01:04:53.530 --> 01:04:53.770]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay.
[01:04:54.630 --> 01:04:55.210]  [SPEAKER_13]: Go ahead.
[01:04:55.590 --> 01:04:57.370]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I'm on a cordless phone right now.
[01:04:57.770 --> 01:04:58.910]  [SPEAKER_04]: I suppose you can tell.
[01:04:59.050 --> 01:05:00.870]  [SPEAKER_13]: You sound like you're, you're soaring through the air.
[01:05:01.310 --> 01:05:01.910]  [SPEAKER_13]: I am.
[01:05:02.110 --> 01:05:02.910]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, um...
[01:05:02.910 --> 01:05:04.170]  [SPEAKER_13]: Like, like an insect or something.
[01:05:06.090 --> 01:05:14.810]  [SPEAKER_04]: Um, you know, I, I know that there used to be a lot of outlets where you can get electronic equipment down around Canal Street, and they're not there anymore.
[01:05:14.810 --> 01:05:21.610]  [SPEAKER_04]: Is there any place around there where, um, one might find this kind of, uh, electronic surplus type stuff?
[01:05:21.650 --> 01:05:22.710]  [SPEAKER_13]: Wait, they've all gone?
[01:05:22.930 --> 01:05:24.350]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, most of them, I...
[01:05:24.350 --> 01:05:25.030]  [SPEAKER_04]: Pretty much, yeah.
[01:05:25.230 --> 01:05:25.970]  [SPEAKER_04]: The good ones are gone.
[01:05:26.050 --> 01:05:26.810]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, why is that?
[01:05:27.090 --> 01:05:27.690]  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know.
[01:05:27.750 --> 01:05:30.390]  [SPEAKER_13]: If we can figure out why that is, we might be able to figure out where they went.
[01:05:30.770 --> 01:05:30.990]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, right.
[01:05:30.990 --> 01:05:33.930]  [SPEAKER_13]: Did they all go to New Jersey or something, or, uh...
[01:05:33.930 --> 01:05:34.610]  [SPEAKER_13]: I don't know.
[01:05:34.890 --> 01:05:35.730]  [SPEAKER_13]: This is news to me.
[01:05:35.790 --> 01:05:36.950]  [SPEAKER_13]: I didn't know they, they had all disappeared.
[01:05:37.430 --> 01:05:40.370]  [SPEAKER_13]: Walking through Canal Street was like, uh, being a neuromancer.
[01:05:40.510 --> 01:05:41.250]  [SPEAKER_13]: You were able to, yeah.
[01:05:41.630 --> 01:05:44.530]  [SPEAKER_13]: To find all kinds of, you know, robotic spare parts and things.
[01:05:44.710 --> 01:05:45.910]  [SPEAKER_20]: I do know what he means, though.
[01:05:45.970 --> 01:05:47.050]  [SPEAKER_20]: A lot of them like, uh...
[01:05:47.050 --> 01:05:49.950]  [SPEAKER_20]: I think it was called Pan Am or Trans Am or whatever it was called.
[01:05:50.090 --> 01:05:51.790]  [SPEAKER_20]: That was a, that was a big one that's gone now.
[01:05:52.070 --> 01:05:55.210]  [SPEAKER_20]: But, uh, your best bet, really, is, uh, just mail order.
[01:05:55.410 --> 01:05:55.750]  Okay.
[01:05:56.230 --> 01:05:57.750]  [SPEAKER_20]: To, uh, just a suggestion.
[01:05:58.010 --> 01:05:59.770]  [SPEAKER_20]: You can call 800-DIRECTORY-ASSISTANCE.
[01:06:00.310 --> 01:06:06.230]  [SPEAKER_20]: And, uh, two, uh, reasonable names to ask for is Jameco, J-A-M-E-C-O.
[01:06:06.370 --> 01:06:06.510]  [SPEAKER_20]: Right.
[01:06:06.710 --> 01:06:07.370]  [SPEAKER_20]: And DigiKey.
[01:06:07.670 --> 01:06:09.170]  [SPEAKER_20]: D-I-G-I-K-E-Y.
[01:06:09.490 --> 01:06:09.750]  Okay.
[01:06:09.910 --> 01:06:14.590]  [SPEAKER_20]: They're two of your larger electronics, uh, warehouses, and you could order all kinds of stuff by mail.
[01:06:14.590 --> 01:06:15.430]  [SPEAKER_20]: Just ask for a catalog.
[01:06:15.730 --> 01:06:19.130]  [SPEAKER_04]: It just takes a little bit longer, and it's not quite as, um, you know...
[01:06:19.130 --> 01:06:21.170]  [SPEAKER_13]: They can do it overnight if you find a good one.
[01:06:21.390 --> 01:06:23.670]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, but it's not as discreet if you have to, you know...
[01:06:23.670 --> 01:06:24.210]  [SPEAKER_13]: Oh, that's true.
[01:06:24.290 --> 01:06:24.870]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, that's true.
[01:06:25.110 --> 01:06:27.310]  [SPEAKER_13]: And, uh, and also, you don't get to play around with it.
[01:06:27.330 --> 01:06:28.570]  [SPEAKER_13]: You have to know exactly what you want.
[01:06:28.710 --> 01:06:28.870]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah.
[01:06:29.510 --> 01:06:32.850]  [SPEAKER_13]: Um, uh, well, the call is out for listeners if they have any suggestions.
[01:06:32.950 --> 01:06:34.270]  [SPEAKER_13]: Uh, we'll certainly pass it along.
[01:06:34.610 --> 01:06:35.190]  [SPEAKER_04]: Great show.
[01:06:35.570 --> 01:06:39.310]  [SPEAKER_04]: Um, I'm listening up here in the Hudson Valley, which is kind of a ways away.
[01:06:39.490 --> 01:06:40.110]  [SPEAKER_04]: How's the reception?
[01:06:40.310 --> 01:06:41.410]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, it's pretty good.
[01:06:41.630 --> 01:06:42.090]  [SPEAKER_13]: That's good.
[01:06:44.610 --> 01:06:45.610]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, thanks for listening.
[01:06:45.790 --> 01:06:46.210]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yep, bye.
[01:06:46.810 --> 01:06:55.390]  [SPEAKER_13]: Listening to Off the Hook, the, uh, program about high technology and, uh, new developments, threats, Big Brother, hackers, you name it.
[01:06:56.710 --> 01:07:00.830]  [SPEAKER_13]: And, uh, we come your way every, uh, Wednesday night from 10 to 11 o'clock on WBAI.
[01:07:00.970 --> 01:07:06.190]  [SPEAKER_13]: We've got an extra four more minutes tonight to, uh, bring you more listener phone calls.
[01:07:06.190 --> 01:07:10.730]  [SPEAKER_13]: Uh, we have in the studio Julian DeBell from the Village Voice, Phiber Optik, uh, as usual.
[01:07:11.470 --> 01:07:16.070]  [SPEAKER_13]: Uh, Julian, any comments since we're only down to our last four minutes on anything?
[01:07:16.210 --> 01:07:19.630]  [SPEAKER_13]: The hacker world or, uh, new technology or anything like that?
[01:07:20.050 --> 01:07:20.790]  [SPEAKER_13]: Uh, well...
[01:07:20.790 --> 01:07:22.510]  [SPEAKER_13]: The Village Voice has, uh, has a big section.
[01:07:22.670 --> 01:07:26.910]  [SPEAKER_14]: Put a, put in a plug for our new, uh, uh, uh, the section is called Wired.
[01:07:26.910 --> 01:07:45.950]  [SPEAKER_14]: It used to be the tube section, but since, uh, television is very soon gonna be so full of microchips and telephones and, uh, God knows what else that it doesn't really make any sense anymore to talk about the television, uh, separate from all these other sort of technological trends.
[01:07:46.190 --> 01:07:56.650]  [SPEAKER_14]: So we have, uh, collapsed the tube section into the wired section, um, and there'll be lots of stuff about all kinds of digital technology, and I'll have a monthly column called Strange Loops.
[01:07:56.970 --> 01:07:57.530]  [SPEAKER_14]: Look for it.
[01:07:57.950 --> 01:07:59.950]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay, what kind of things are you gonna be covering in Strange Loops?
[01:07:59.950 --> 01:08:08.170]  [SPEAKER_14]: Uh, well, for instance, uh, the, uh, the Secret Service secret raid on the, uh, DC 2600 meeting.
[01:08:08.970 --> 01:08:10.730]  [SPEAKER_14]: Uh, uh, give me some material.
[01:08:11.030 --> 01:08:15.210]  [SPEAKER_13]: Alright, that's, uh, well, there's plenty of material in the hacker world to, uh, to keep you going.
[01:08:15.370 --> 01:08:16.230]  [SPEAKER_13]: That's, that's for sure.
[01:08:16.710 --> 01:08:20.690]  [SPEAKER_13]: Alright, let's take a couple more calls and, uh, we'll be putting the news on in just a couple of minutes.
[01:08:20.910 --> 01:08:22.650]  [SPEAKER_13]: Good evening, you're on Off the Hook.
[01:08:24.050 --> 01:08:24.410]  [SPEAKER_03]: Hello?
[01:08:24.730 --> 01:08:25.170]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, go ahead.
[01:08:27.110 --> 01:08:27.870]  [SPEAKER_03]: Alright, uh...
[01:08:27.870 --> 01:08:28.910]  [SPEAKER_13]: Where, where are you calling from?
[01:08:29.150 --> 01:08:31.410]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I'm calling from, uh, an area.
[01:08:31.750 --> 01:08:32.190]  [SPEAKER_03]: I just...
[01:08:32.190 --> 01:08:32.510]  [SPEAKER_03]: Alright.
[01:08:32.950 --> 01:08:34.770]  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm calling from, like, a restaurant.
[01:08:35.190 --> 01:08:36.410]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, it sounds like you're in a restaurant.
[01:08:36.530 --> 01:08:38.170]  [SPEAKER_03]: I know, I'm, I'm down from Maine.
[01:08:38.650 --> 01:08:39.930]  [SPEAKER_03]: And I had a few questions.
[01:08:40.190 --> 01:08:40.930]  [SPEAKER_13]: You're down from...
[01:08:40.930 --> 01:08:43.610]  [SPEAKER_13]: Oh, oh, down from the state, that sounded like a code of some sort.
[01:08:43.730 --> 01:08:44.370]  [SPEAKER_13]: Down from Maine.
[01:08:44.570 --> 01:08:44.910]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay.
[01:08:45.050 --> 01:08:45.750]  [SPEAKER_03]: Down from Maine, yes.
[01:08:45.870 --> 01:08:46.990]  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm driving through New York.
[01:08:47.130 --> 01:08:47.430]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay.
[01:08:47.970 --> 01:08:50.070]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's a very good quality phone, I'll say that.
[01:08:50.490 --> 01:08:50.970]  [SPEAKER_03]: Say what?
[01:08:50.970 --> 01:08:51.030]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[01:08:51.130 --> 01:08:52.310]  [SPEAKER_13]: You have a very good connection.
[01:08:52.310 --> 01:08:53.610]  [SPEAKER_13]: I can tell you're in a restaurant.
[01:08:53.790 --> 01:08:53.870]  [SPEAKER_13]: Right.
[01:08:53.870 --> 01:08:54.470]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's very clear.
[01:08:54.470 --> 01:09:01.190]  [SPEAKER_03]: Alright, uh, first of all, I tried a red box on one of the, uh, New England, uh, not New England telephones, New York telephones.
[01:09:01.530 --> 01:09:03.570]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, that's the kind we tend to have here.
[01:09:03.850 --> 01:09:06.190]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, they don't work worth crap.
[01:09:06.910 --> 01:09:12.070]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, second of all, I'm really curious how you guys can publicly talk about this on the air.
[01:09:12.310 --> 01:09:25.670]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, now, you see, you see, now, we're not publicly telling people to use red boxes on payphones, but we are telling you what, uh, what technology does and what technology works, what technology does not work.
[01:09:25.910 --> 01:09:34.250]  [SPEAKER_13]: The thing that you define as a red box is simply, uh, uh, several tones that are sent down the phone and simulate quarters, dimes, and nickels.
[01:09:34.310 --> 01:09:37.430]  [SPEAKER_13]: And I can tell you that red boxes do work all over New York.
[01:09:37.650 --> 01:09:39.470]  [SPEAKER_13]: Maybe the phone you're at now, it doesn't work at.
[01:09:39.550 --> 01:09:41.610]  [SPEAKER_13]: Some phones it does, some phones it does not.
[01:09:41.610 --> 01:09:44.910]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's a, it's a major security hole for all the phone companies in the country.
[01:09:45.310 --> 01:09:48.150]  [SPEAKER_13]: And something that I, I assume they're working to fix.
[01:09:48.790 --> 01:09:53.250]  [SPEAKER_13]: Um, but again, we don't encourage people to do that because, uh, it is stealing revenue.
[01:09:53.550 --> 01:09:53.930]  Right.
[01:09:54.230 --> 01:09:55.070]  [SPEAKER_13]: No question about it.
[01:09:55.290 --> 01:10:02.230]  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm, I was just curious because, you know, up in Maine, somebody says the word hacker or freaker, everybody's, you know...
[01:10:02.870 --> 01:10:04.430]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's a good way to clear a bar, right?
[01:10:04.610 --> 01:10:05.670]  [SPEAKER_13]: Right, it's like voodoo.
[01:10:06.070 --> 01:10:06.250]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah.
[01:10:06.550 --> 01:10:07.310]  [SPEAKER_13]: I mean...
[01:10:07.310 --> 01:10:08.110]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, this is Sin City here, you know.
[01:10:08.170 --> 01:10:10.690]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, this is Sin City, we, we can get away with things like that.
[01:10:11.610 --> 01:10:13.610]  [SPEAKER_13]: Seriously, I mean, there's nothing wrong with being a hacker.
[01:10:13.790 --> 01:10:16.210]  [SPEAKER_13]: Being a hacker is just somebody that, uh, is interested in learning.
[01:10:16.890 --> 01:10:17.250]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well...
[01:10:17.250 --> 01:10:18.810]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's what happens when you get bored.
[01:10:19.270 --> 01:10:19.370]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh-huh.
[01:10:19.490 --> 01:10:20.010]  [SPEAKER_03]: And, uh...
[01:10:20.010 --> 01:10:20.910]  [SPEAKER_13]: You ask questions, aren't you?
[01:10:20.970 --> 01:10:24.910]  [SPEAKER_03]: A previous caller, earlier caller, who was, uh, talking about the cocots.
[01:10:25.190 --> 01:10:25.430]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah.
[01:10:26.770 --> 01:10:33.630]  [SPEAKER_03]: Um, my feeling on that is they're probably just, uh, dialing up the 800 number, waiting for it to hang up, and then getting an unrestricted dial tone.
[01:10:33.830 --> 01:10:34.610]  [SPEAKER_13]: That was my initial...
[01:10:34.610 --> 01:10:36.970]  [SPEAKER_03]: I believe there was an informatic issue.
[01:10:37.210 --> 01:10:37.450]  [SPEAKER_13]: Uh-huh.
[01:10:37.570 --> 01:10:39.150]  [SPEAKER_03]: I think it was, uh, issue number four.
[01:10:40.230 --> 01:10:42.330]  [SPEAKER_03]: Earlier, they covered cocots.
[01:10:42.750 --> 01:10:42.850]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah.
[01:10:44.490 --> 01:10:47.850]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, well, I mean, that was my initial impression, too, that, uh, that's what was happening.
[01:10:48.030 --> 01:10:51.490]  [SPEAKER_13]: But I don't think that's the case, because this person did seem to be pretty knowledgeable about the phones.
[01:10:52.150 --> 01:10:55.130]  [SPEAKER_13]: Uh, we'll, we'll check into it, though, and see what, what is really going on.
[01:10:55.350 --> 01:10:55.630]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay.
[01:10:55.630 --> 01:10:56.310]  [SPEAKER_13]: Listen, we're out of time.
[01:10:56.590 --> 01:10:56.790]  [SPEAKER_13]: All right.
[01:10:56.850 --> 01:10:58.090]  [SPEAKER_13]: But, uh, good luck up in Maine.
[01:10:58.230 --> 01:11:01.650]  [SPEAKER_13]: Hopefully you'll start some, uh, some hacker meetings up there and keep playing around.
[01:11:01.650 --> 01:11:01.850]  [SPEAKER_13]: We've got them already.
[01:11:01.850 --> 01:11:02.650]  [SPEAKER_13]: Oh, really?
[01:11:03.170 --> 01:11:03.650]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay.
[01:11:03.650 --> 01:11:07.750]  [SPEAKER_03]: And we've already got our whole, uh, family of techno-narcs.
[01:11:08.290 --> 01:11:08.630]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay.
[01:11:08.810 --> 01:11:11.990]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, just, just be careful of, uh, skulking feds and things like that.
[01:11:12.150 --> 01:11:12.430]  [SPEAKER_13]: Right.
[01:11:12.810 --> 01:11:13.050]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay.
[01:11:13.310 --> 01:11:13.890]  [SPEAKER_13]: Take care.
[01:11:14.150 --> 01:11:14.370]  [SPEAKER_13]: All right.
[01:11:14.530 --> 01:11:14.770]  [SPEAKER_03]: Thanks.
[01:11:15.410 --> 01:11:20.730]  [SPEAKER_13]: And, uh, that was, uh, a hacker from a restaurant in New York who's down from Maine.
[01:11:25.890 --> 01:11:37.050]  [SPEAKER_13]: And that's, uh, that's just about going to do it from us here at Off the Hook, where, uh, we're just about ready for the news, which is starting late because it's, uh, much shorter than it usually is.
[01:11:37.690 --> 01:11:50.690]  [SPEAKER_13]: Uh, we'll be back again next week with another edition of Off the Hook and, uh, some telephone scandals of various sorts and the results of some of the, uh, questions posed to us by listeners tonight, uh, next week at, uh, 10 o'clock next Wednesday night.
[01:11:50.690 --> 01:11:58.610]  [SPEAKER_13]: Again, the personal computer show can now be heard at nine o'clock, and usually the news rebroadcast goes on at 11, but, uh, tonight it's going on at 12 minutes after.
[01:11:59.410 --> 01:12:00.810]  [SPEAKER_13]: This is Emmanuel Goldstein.
[01:12:01.050 --> 01:12:03.230]  [SPEAKER_13]: Thanks to Julian DeBell and Phiber Optik for coming in.
[01:12:03.770 --> 01:12:05.670]  [SPEAKER_13]: We'll see you again next week.
[01:12:06.030 --> 01:12:06.390]  [SPEAKER_13]: Good night.
[01:12:12.920 --> 01:12:17.320]  [SPEAKER_07]: The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
[01:12:18.300 --> 01:12:22.780]  [SPEAKER_07]: I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a cough.
[01:12:22.780 --> 01:12:25.520]  [SPEAKER_07]: It couldn't get much worse.
[01:12:26.160 --> 01:12:28.060]  [SPEAKER_08]: But if they could, they would.
[01:12:28.340 --> 01:12:30.940]  [SPEAKER_08]: Bon dilly bon for the best, expect the worst.
[01:12:31.560 --> 01:12:33.440]  [SPEAKER_08]: I hope that's understood.
[01:12:33.640 --> 01:12:34.460]  [SPEAKER_08]: Bon dilly bon!
[01:12:44.270 --> 01:12:45.170]  [SPEAKER_12]: Good evening.
[01:12:45.410 --> 01:12:49.370]  [SPEAKER_12]: In the news tonight, women athletes are beginning to score points in the courtroom.
[01:12:49.690 --> 01:12:52.590]  [SPEAKER_12]: Is the media opposing the bigger threat in Somalia?
[01:12:52.850 --> 01:12:56.590]  [SPEAKER_12]: The Intifada, has it hurt or helped the Palestinian cause?
[01:12:56.590 --> 01:13:01.230]  [SPEAKER_12]: And the Alvin Elly American Dance Theater opens tonight at City Center.
[01:13:01.570 --> 01:13:04.790]  [SPEAKER_12]: Stay tuned for our special tribute to the man and his company.
[01:13:05.030 --> 01:13:08.770]  [SPEAKER_12]: With these and other stories, I'm Laura Seidel with Verna Avery-Brand in Washington.
[01:13:08.790 --> 01:13:12.230]  [SPEAKER_12]: And this is the news for Wednesday, December 9th, 1992.
[01:13:14.750 --> 01:13:17.490]  [SPEAKER_12]: First, to Mark Beavis with these headline stories.
[01:13:17.490 --> 01:13:24.770]  [SPEAKER_17]: Former CIA official Claire George has been convicted on two counts of lying to Congress about his knowledge of the Iran-Contra affair.
[01:13:25.070 --> 01:13:30.190]  [SPEAKER_17]: Each count carries a maximum penalty of five years in prison and a $250,000 fine.
[01:13:30.510 --> 01:13:34.410]  [SPEAKER_17]: George was cleared of five other charges of lying to Congress and to a grand jury.
[01:13:34.690 --> 01:13:39.230]  [SPEAKER_17]: George told Congress in 1986 he didn't know who was behind the Contra resupply effort.
[01:13:39.230 --> 01:13:46.830]  [SPEAKER_17]: Prosecutors charged George did know about the roles of Oliver North, Richard Secord, and Felix Rodriguez in the Iran-Contra affair.
[01:13:47.550 --> 01:13:56.530]  [SPEAKER_17]: A Justice Department special counsel said today there is no need to appoint an independent prosecutor to investigate the Bush administration's involvement in illegal loans to Iraq.
[01:13:56.710 --> 01:13:57.750]  [SPEAKER_17]: Judge Frederick Lacey.
[01:13:58.110 --> 01:14:06.270]  [SPEAKER_00]: As to both aspects of my study, I see no warrant at all for the appointment of a statutory independent counsel.
[01:14:06.270 --> 01:14:10.370]  [SPEAKER_17]: Attorney General William Barr is expected to go along with that recommendation.
[01:14:10.670 --> 01:14:15.750]  [SPEAKER_17]: The case involved loans channeled to Iraq through the Atlanta branch of the Italian bank, BNL.
[01:14:15.990 --> 01:14:21.170]  [SPEAKER_17]: The CIA withheld evidence from the Justice Department that the bank's headquarters in Rome knew about the loans.
[01:14:21.930 --> 01:14:24.110]  [SPEAKER_17]: A contingent of 1,800 U.S.
[01:14:24.210 --> 01:14:27.610]  [SPEAKER_17]: Marines is ending its first day in Mogadishu, the capital of Somalia.
[01:14:27.870 --> 01:14:32.350]  [SPEAKER_17]: The Marines reportedly have met with almost no resistance, and no casualties are reported.
[01:14:32.350 --> 01:14:36.850]  [SPEAKER_17]: The Mogadishu airport received a plane load of relief supplies for the first time in a month.
[01:14:37.210 --> 01:14:39.210]  [SPEAKER_17]: Elsewhere in Somalia, violence continues.
[01:14:39.610 --> 01:14:45.790]  [SPEAKER_17]: Aid workers had to be evacuated from the southern port of Kishmayu, and fighting continues in the central city of Badoa.
[01:14:46.330 --> 01:14:52.350]  [SPEAKER_17]: Pentagon spokesperson Michael Kramer says the military hopes to bring an end to the fighting in areas outside Mogadishu.
[01:14:52.350 --> 01:14:56.590]  [SPEAKER_15]: There certainly has been some increased fighting over the last 72 hours.
[01:14:56.750 --> 01:15:02.310]  [SPEAKER_15]: Having said that, we're beginning, and matter of fact, it started about the time the Marines hit the ground last night.
[01:15:02.450 --> 01:15:16.010]  [SPEAKER_15]: We're beginning to see this subside, and I'm confident that as we go into these forward airfields, as the plan is laid out, that we're going to see, hopefully, the same kind of situation that we witnessed in Mogadishu.
[01:15:16.390 --> 01:15:20.270]  [SPEAKER_17]: Russian President Boris Yeltsin suffered a humiliating political defeat today.
[01:15:20.270 --> 01:15:25.150]  [SPEAKER_17]: The Congress of People's Deputies rejected his candidate for Prime Minister, Yegor Gaidar.
[01:15:25.590 --> 01:15:27.110]  [SPEAKER_17]: Andrew Harding reports from Moscow.
[01:15:27.330 --> 01:15:34.470]  [SPEAKER_16]: After a tense, even frantic afternoon of voting, hardliners are celebrating a major blow against Boris Yeltsin and his government.
[01:15:34.790 --> 01:15:41.550]  [SPEAKER_16]: Several ministers have said they'd resign if the Congress refused to approve the nomination of Yegor Gaidar as Prime Minister.
[01:15:41.870 --> 01:15:45.050]  [SPEAKER_16]: Their bluff has now been called, but although the vote...