Who are caring.
Come to the Winter Festival, sponsored by New York in 94, for the Gay Games, Saturday
December 12th at PS 41, 11th Street and 6th Avenue.
This is a free event with 40 vendors, including holiday gift items, toys, crafts, political
t-shirts, calendars, jewelry, a bake sale, and a raffle.
I hope to see you there, this Saturday, 10 until 5 p.m. at PS 41, 116 West 11th Street.
Support New York in 94 and enjoy a holiday march.
And it's 10 o'clock, you're listening to WBAI in New York.
If you're tuning in now for the Personal Computer Show, your timing is impeccable, you've just
missed it, because as of last week, the Personal Computer Show is on at 9 o'clock, you're just
going to have to put up with Off the Hook at 10 o'clock, because it's time for Off the
Hook.
The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a call.
It couldn't get much worse.
But if I could, they would.
Bum diddley bum, for the best, it's better, worse.
Bum diddley bum, for the best, it's better, worse.
And it's time once again for Off the Hook, the program that deals with all kinds of new
and scary innovations in technology, and how they affect you, and how they affect the people
around you, and what you can do to help or stop, if necessary.
We'll be talking about happenings in the hacker world that have national implications, as
well as whatever else you have on your minds.
Our number is 212-279-3400, and we'll be taking your phone calls a little bit later on.
We've got some good news, actually, and this good news has to do with privacy.
Privacy is something that we hold pretty close to us here, and something that a lot of people
don't see the importance of.
Well, I'm happy to say that at least one local university has seen the light.
And if you look in today's New York Times, you'll see that Rutgers University has agreed
to stop displaying students' names along with their social security numbers on materials
commonly circulated among students.
Now, most colleges, most colleges around here, your social security number is your name.
In fact, you go and look up a grade sheet, and you look at the social security number,
you find out what your grade is.
You don't see your name there.
That number is very easy to get.
It's something that you put on everything.
Bank statements, motor vehicle applications, cable TV bills, you name it, your social security
number is everywhere.
So it's something that should be protected.
Actually, you should probably get a new one, because the old one has been given to so many
people by now, but good luck trying that.
The out-of-court settlement, returning to the story, resolves a lawsuit filed in April
by members of the Rutgers University Legislative Affairs Council and the Rutgers chapter, excuse
me, chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union, which charged that the university was
violating federal laws on privacy.
Students had been concerned that others could gain access to their academic records or use
another person's social security numbers to get a birth certificate or any kind of other
identification or, God forbid, a credit card.
Yes.
It sounds like they've been listening.
In the settlement, which was announced on Monday, the university agreed to take these
steps.
And if you go to a university, maybe you should write this down and make sure your university
takes these steps as well.
Prohibit the public posting of student grade information by name and social security number.
End the practice of mailing letters with student names and social security numbers on the outside.
Remove social security numbers from student meal cards.
Hold public hearings on student privacy twice a year for at least two years.
Allow students to use a number other than their social security number for student identification.
Well, according to Joseph Lockhart, president of the Rutgers chapter of the ACLU, this is
an important victory for the notion that privacy concerns are real and that privacy must be
protected.
It's also a victory for Rutgers University in that they can confidently state that they
are moving to the forefront of protecting the privacy of students.
Judge H. Lee Sarekin of Federal District Court issued an injunction in August barring the
university from posting student names next to grades and ordered that class rosters not
be circulated with social security numbers on them.
He said the university could continue using social security numbers for registration and
billing.
It's a step.
It's not the final step because those numbers, I mean, you have that number and you can do
virtually anything to somebody.
You can change all kinds of bits of information.
You can affect their credit rating.
All it takes are those magic nine numbers.
So perhaps they should be protected just a little bit more.
Here's an exciting bit of news from the, also from the Times today.
Automatic telemachines that use voice identification.
Yes, according to the article, perhaps as soon as early 1994, account holders may be
talking back to their automated telemachine and won't be uttering profanity and various
other things you may currently say to your ATM.
AT&T and its computer unit.
Anybody know what this computer unit is called?
No?
Nobody?
We have a room filled with experts here and nobody knows what the computer outfit of AT&T
is called.
Well, I'll give you a hint.
It's been around for quite some time.
It's been around for quite some time.
That's the sound of people thinking.
You give up?
The Bell Corps?
No, no, no.
No, you're way off base there.
No.
NCR.
NCR?
National Cash Registers.
That's what it stood for.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's true.
At some point over the last few years, they bought them out and we were sleeping or something
and we missed it.
But yeah, AT&T's computer unit is NCR.
The world's largest maker of computerized bank tellers.
And they're developing a new machine that identifies clients by voice rather than by
passwords punched into a keyboard.
Rather.
It's not an addition to passwords.
It's instead of passwords.
I don't know about this.
It seems to me with a good tape recorder, you can master just about anything.
The new approach will do little to LA security concerns around teller machines.
Several well-publicized robberies and assaults have led to new laws around the country, including
New York City, where security guards or video cameras will eventually be a requirement.
But the voice identification system being tested by NCR and AT&T will make it more difficult
for thieves to use stolen ATM cards, most of which are now easily decipherable by machines
that read the card's magnetic strip and therefore the password.
Is that true?
That's not true.
That's wrong.
That's a crock.
Wait a minute.
I'm being beeped.
Hold on.
Hold on.
Uh-oh.
Uh-oh.
Okay.
Well, I can't deal with that right now.
There's plenty of police out there, so they don't need me.
Anyway.
Yes, that's not true, because the ATM card communicates with a computer somewhere, God
knows where.
Your password is not stored on the card.
This is the New York Times, page D3, and it's wrong.
How can it be in the Times if it's wrong?
Get a grip.
Get a grip.
It's not supposed to be like this, though.
If it's in the Times, it's supposed to be true.
But anyway, we'll overlook that.
The new NCR automated tellers, set to be widely tested by banks in mid-1993, use voice
identification technology and smart cards that have no magnetic strips, both developed
by AT&T Bell Laboratories.
The voice techniques are already being used to replace some of AT&T's long-distance operators,
especially in the use of calling cards.
Needless to say, they're not too popular with former long-distance operators, who probably
will be forced to use these cards as well.
Smart cards are credit card-like devices that resemble and function the floppy disks
for computers.
Current versions of the card hold 24,000 bits of information in its memory, the equivalent
of two typed pages.
NCR, which, for those of you that question this, was acquired by AT&T in 1991, last year,
has made more than 27,000 computerized tellers in the United States and more than 73,000
abroad.
Why?
They seem to be favoring ATMs abroad, I'll say that three times as many.
If tests prove successful, old ATM machines would simply be refitted with new equipment
rather than completely redesigned.
The voice identification technology will be available in the form of kits of speakers,
microphones, smart card readers, and related gear.
The kit's price has not been set yet.
Previously, voice identification technology had been hampered by laborious maturing the
template, teaching the computer to identify the unique characteristics of a particular
human voice so that it was not fooled by similar voices.
Sometimes this maturing could take 20 attempts with a person repeating phrases slowly and
monotonously.
Such machines were also sometimes fooled by legitimate customers with colds under high
stress or other conditions that affected their voice.
AT&T technology, said John Gray, assistant vice president of the NCR unit responsible
for ATM machines, takes fewer than eight attempts to mature the machine and can be
used by rattled, flu-stricken customers.
In addition, customers are encouraged to store up to seven random phrases which the new ATM
will prompt the customer to say.
My voice is my passport or what have you.
With more random phrases, there is a high degree of security than with a single password.
For example, a customer may have stored Alexander Graham Bell, Watson, and red, white, and blue
on his new ATM card and the machine would randomly prompt the customer to say, over
a telephone attached to the ATM, one of the three phrases.
I have this feeling that this kind of security is going to be prone to all types of mistakes
and we'll all be involved in testing it out as it gets introduced.
I'm looking forward to it.
I'm looking forward to speaking to ATM machines and seeing just how good a system it is and
if it's any better than what we have right now.
It certainly won't be very secure for people that are being robbed.
I mean, all they'll have to do is, you know, submit to a robber's request to say certain
words.
I don't think it's going to make that any more secure.
In fact, it might make it easier.
And if somebody, all you have to do really is plant a tape recorder or maybe a camcorder
in a little place where, a vestibule where ATM machines are, and watch and see who comes
in and what words they say.
And then you have it on tape.
You take issue with that?
Yeah, it wouldn't work too well.
Well, no, I'm not saying use those words.
I'm saying, you know, you would know.
I don't know.
It's just you're gathering bits of information.
You know what somebody's words are.
Well, the tape's not going to be high enough quality anyway.
Well, I don't know if you've seen camcorders these days.
They're moving up in the world, but that's something for the future.
I don't know.
It's interesting.
Technology keeps moving ahead and sometimes it's moving behind.
Okay, that's from today's New York Times.
Last week we mentioned something about Blockbuster Video.
And I feel I should mention something else because we've gotten a couple of calls on
this from people that say they've contacted Blockbuster and they deny the things that
we said.
Let me reiterate what went on last week.
Last week we reported that Blockbuster was not going to stock any new Woody Allen films
because of the controversy surrounding him.
Now I had said that based on what I had heard on the radio.
I heard this on WCBS AM on Tuesday morning, last Tuesday morning.
Other people have told me they've seen it on TV and heard it on other radio stations.
Try as I might, I cannot get anybody to admit having aired that story.
WCBS, for instance, says that if it's before yesterday, they have no record of it.
I swear to God, that's what they say.
But it is something that was reported.
I don't know where, who started the story.
We're simply relaying what is already out there.
Blockbuster is saying that they aren't going to do such a thing.
And that's good if it's true.
If it is true, it's because people have responded and called them and demanded to know what's
really going on.
But one thing that has not changed is our little demonstration last week where we were
able to find out what films people have taken out simply by asking.
They keep it stored in a computer and that's something to be really concerned about.
So if anyone out there has heard that story about the Woody Allen thing, please let us
know where you heard it and if you have a printed version of it, please forward that
to us as well as we'd like to be able to point to something.
But thanks to the people that are looking into this further because we do need to know
the facts.
Okay.
When we come back, we'll have some conversation about the hacker meeting in Washington, D.C.
that took place despite last month's upheaval by the Secret Service.
Stay tuned.
We're sorry that you no longer need us, no longer need us, no longer need us, no longer
need us, no longer need us, no longer need us, no longer need us, no longer need us,
no longer need us, no longer need us, no longer need us, no longer need us, no longer need
us, no longer need us, no longer need us, no longer need us, no longer need us, no longer
need us, no longer need us, no longer need us, no longer need us, no longer need us,
no longer need us, no longer need us, no longer need us, no longer need us, no longer need
us, no longer need us, no longer need us, no longer need us, no longer need us, no longer
need us, no longer need us, no longer need us, no longer need us, no longer need us,
no longer need us, no longer need us, no longer need us, no longer need us, no longer need
us.
yeah oh we got a little chord there that's um the dead kennedys who are now looked upon as
mainstream hardcore if you can believe that uh and the song is soup is good food if you
were able to make out lyrics then uh then you were able to get something out of it
and the uh significance to this program we're sorry but you're no longer needed or wanted or
or even cared about here.
Machines can do a better job than you.
This is what you get for asking questions.
The unions agree, sacrifices must be made,
computers never go on strike.
To save the working man,
you've got to put him out to pasture.
Looks like we'll have to let you go.
Doesn't it feel fulfilling to know
that you, the human being, are now obsolete,
and there's nothing in hell we'll let you do about it?
We're sorry, you'll just have to leave.
Unemployment runs out after just six weeks.
How does it feel to be a budget cut?
You're snipped, you no longer exist.
Your number's been purged from our central computer,
so we can rig the facts and sweep you under the rug.
See our chart?
Unemployment's going down.
If that ruins your life, that's your problem.
We're sorry, we hate to interrupt,
but it's against the law to jump off this bridge.
You'll just have to kill yourself somewhere else.
A tourist might see you, we wouldn't want that.
I'm just doing my job, you know.
So say uncle, and we'll take you to the mental health zoo.
Force feed you mind-melting chemicals
till even the outside world looks great.
In high-tech science research labs,
it costs too much to bury all the dead,
the mutilated disease-injected surplus rats
who can't be used anymore.
So they're dumped with no minister present
in a spiral ring corkscrew.
Dispose all unit, ground into stew and flushed away.
And it goes on.
Oh, it's kind of depressing,
but kind of right on the money
as far as what we talk about here.
Mindless computers replacing people.
Oh, another beep.
You know, the beeps just keep coming in like clockwork.
Oh, wow.
That's an interesting saga there that's going on.
There's a whole other-
Do you have a vibrator beeper there?
Yeah, actually, I do have a vibrator.
I do have a vibrator beeper.
There's a special mode here,
but well, if that were to go off,
it's the same number, the exact same number.
You see that number there?
That's the same number.
If I were to have that one go off,
I'd probably shout when it started vibrating
because it would be kind of frightening, you know,
to have something that's on you suddenly start moving.
It's like you have a wild animal or something.
Anyway, 212-279-3400 is our phone number.
We're here with Julian DeBell from The Village Voice.
Julian, let's see if your mic is working.
Testing one, two, three.
Okay, okay, that did come across.
So your mic is working.
Julian DeBell is, as I said, from The Village Voice,
and he went down to Washington, D.C.,
along with FiberOptic, myself, and a couple other people
to lend some support and see what was going on
at the Washington, D.C., 2600 meeting.
Last month, if you recall,
the meeting was broken up by mall security people
who forced people to submit to searches
and take everybody's name.
They took everyone's name and ID and that kind of thing.
That in itself is bad enough,
but what we were able to discover
through reporter Brock Meeks from Communications Daily
was that the Secret Service was behind the whole thing,
and they had told mall security to do this.
So we went back this time to see what would happen,
back to the exact same place,
the Pentagon City Mall in Arlington, Virginia.
Well, Julian, you had a bit of a run-in
with the security people there.
Maybe it's best describing it in your words.
Yeah, no hackers got kicked out this time,
as far as I know, but I did, and Brock Meeks did as well.
He was sort of the focal point of the encounter.
Brock was going around trying to talk to someone
that was in charge.
There were plenty of people
who obviously were working for the mall
and obviously were keeping an eye on things,
security guards walking around with walkie-talkies.
There was another gentleman on the second story
looking down with a duffel bag
out of which a video camera was poking pretty obviously.
I guess he was probably Secret Service or one of the...
Now, where'd you see him?
He was on the second, it was early in the evening.
There was a guy on the second floor,
and some of the kids looked up and said,
oh, look at that guy with the bag.
And, you know, well, hackers are kind of...
Some of the other comments were that Santa Claus was a fed.
I mean, there was a Santa Claus walking around.
Yeah, and there was that horrible children's chorus
that was hitting us with carol after carol
in a really loud, abrasive way.
It was very surreal, I thought.
Yeah, it was all pretty much out of Firesign Theater,
the whole setup.
So this guy was...
And I looked up and I thought, oh, yeah, yeah.
But there was this guy sort of standing there
with a large, oversized duffel bag
hanging over the edge of the railing
and peeking right out of it, plain as day.
It was a little video lens.
So anyway, there was one guy,
an older gentleman, gray-haired gentleman
who appeared to be sort of in charge of the security guards.
And so Brock was looking around to try and find him
because he thought maybe he was sort of in charge.
He was trying to find Al Johnson,
who we had talked to earlier,
the head of security, who had told him.
The director of mall security
who had actually said the Secret Service was involved.
Yeah, told him that the Secret Service was involved.
But Al wasn't around,
so failing that, we were gonna find this guy.
And I was just sort of tagging along,
Brock being a much more seasoned reporter than I,
and I just thought I'd go take some notes
and see how it works.
So he spots this guy,
and the guy's staying there next to a security guard,
and Brock walks up to him and introduces himself.
The guy refuses to identify himself,
refuses to say what his relationship to the mall is.
It's obviously that he's in some kind
of management position.
We saw him going into the manager's office
and overseeing security guards.
Brock tried to get him to make a statement
about what had happened last month,
and the guy claimed he knew nothing about it.
We pointed out to him that had been on the cover
of the front page of the Washington Post.
He said, well, that's a surprise to me.
That's sort of standard.
If anyone was abused or detained,
I certainly don't approve of that.
And then Brock tried to get him to say,
well, are you disapproving in what capacity?
And he wouldn't say, and he wouldn't say,
and he just said, all I want is for people to come here
and have a pleasant Christmas shopping experience.
I just want everybody to fill up their bags with goodies
and just have a really good time,
and I want the food court here to stay clean and neat,
and that's all I really care about.
We don't want to arrest anybody, blah, blah, blah.
He asked him his views on genocide,
why he were at it.
That didn't go into it.
But he wouldn't identify himself,
and Brock kept pushing him and saying,
why, why don't you want to tell me,
why won't you tell me?
And the guy was like, I don't know who you are.
And Brock said, I'm Brock Meeks from Communication Weekly.
He said, well, I'm Santa Claus, he said.
So that was the closest we got to identifying the guy.
And he said this while,
the real Santa Claus was in full view downstairs.
Clearly, clearly this was a lie.
We caught him red-handed in that.
And at a certain point, he just got fed up
and said, well, sir, you are harassing me.
I'd like you to leave.
At which point, the security officer moved in and said,
okay, you're gonna leave the mall,
you've been harassing a shopper.
That was the rule, harassing a shopper.
The guy was obviously not a shopper.
And Brock was like, I can't believe,
do you have the right to arrest me?
He turned to a cop,
an Arlington City police officer was standing next to him,
said, can he do this?
Can he kick me out?
And he says, he certainly can.
And if you don't leave, I'm going to arrest you.
The Arlington policeman said that.
The Arlington policeman said that.
So the police officer and security guard
escorted Brock out of the mall.
And I went with him to sort of see how he was doing.
And we sort of recouped and I headed back to go in
and they said, no, you're not going back in either,
the two security guards at this point.
And I started arguing and say, well, I didn't,
he didn't ask me to leave, what was I doing?
There was also, at the time,
there had been a whole crowd of people standing around.
A bunch of the kids from the meeting were gathered around,
including another reporter from the Washington Post.
And I said, look, I was just standing in the crowd,
what was I doing?
They said, you're just not,
we're not going to have a discussion about this.
We've asked you to leave, you're going to leave.
At which point, the police officer took out his billy club
and started advancing on me and I decided to.
The real cop or the wrong cop?
The real cop, yeah.
You wanted the gun.
Not the rent-a-cop.
So, you know, so what I got, came away from that
was just a real sense of,
that malls are, you know, they are America with a triple K.
I mean, it's like this,
they, when you go in there, you have no rights.
They have the right to kick you out.
You don't have any recourse.
You know, and these are,
these malls are like taking over public space
all over America.
And they look like public space
and they're conducive to things like meetings
of dissident organizations or anything.
So, you know, they should be used for that, I think.
But the thing is, is you don't have any rights
once you walk in there.
You give up your civil rights once you walk into a mall.
Incredible, because it's considered private property.
Yeah.
That is something.
I mean, we don't have, you know,
the equivalent of the town square, I suppose,
of past years.
So we go to the mall,
but the mall's just not the same thing.
Well, now, what you saw of the actual meeting itself,
the Hacker meeting, how did that seem to you?
It seemed, you know, very congenial.
It wasn't rowdy or anything.
It wasn't anybody disrupting.
It wasn't anybody, you know,
ruining anybody's Christmas shopping experience.
In fact, I'd have to say,
I think there were probably about 75 people there
throughout the course of the three hours.
We probably contributed a good thousand dollars
to the mall by buying various things,
you know, just in the food court alone.
And it really was a very well-behaved group.
I'm sure it always is a well-behaved group.
In fact, all the meetings we have throughout the country,
there are never any problems that I hear about anyway.
So it's inconceivable
that they would actually harass people like this
just because the Secret Service suspects
that they might, you know, know too much.
And when you think of it, Julian,
you were kicked out along with Brock
because you were asking too many questions.
You were asking inconvenient questions.
And that's two things that authority figures hate the most
is when people ask a lot of questions,
which is what hackers do all the time.
And the other thing is when you start looking at them
the way they look at you.
In other words, you mentioned that these people
were walking around with cameras.
Well, guess what?
These hackers were walking around with cameras too
because we've got nothing to hide.
So why shouldn't other people be open to surveillance
just the same way that we are?
When you take a picture of a security guard, however,
you see the reaction.
They get very upset by that.
They don't want people to know,
especially if they're undercover, obviously.
But I annoy them
because I took a picture of their security camera once.
I just flashed a bulb in it
and I could tell they didn't like that at all.
I don't know what they thought they were protecting
by not having people take pictures of it.
But we must have had a good half dozen camcorders ourselves.
So anything that went on over there, we probably captured.
And that's something, it's weird.
It's kind of a reaction to the harassment
that is taking place all over the country
in New York, San Francisco, Chicago, St. Louis.
I think our newest meeting was in Austin
and Pittsburgh as well.
But people are walking around
with all kinds of hidden microphones and camcorders.
We're playing the game, the same game.
If they're going to be surveying us,
we'll survey them right back
and we'll probably do a better job of it.
It's surprising.
I mean, to be honest, I thought they were incredibly stupid
the way they went about this last time.
I mean, here we are meeting in a public place
in front of everybody
and they're sneaking around trying to spy on us,
not knowing everybody can see them.
It's really pretty silly.
Well, for those that are interested,
we have monthly meetings here in New York City
at the Citicorp Center in, yeah, I said the P that time,
in New York City, 53rd Street,
between 3rd and Lexington Avenue,
the lower level by the pay phones.
And again, a well-behaved group.
And we patronize the place.
Well, usually, yeah, we're pretty well-behaved.
We're certainly better behaved
than a lot of the other people there.
We just trade information.
We meet people, trade information,
and talk freely and openly,
kind of like what we're supposed to be doing.
Well, that also raises an interesting point, too.
You talk about trading information at the malls.
I mean, a parallel I think of immediately
is to the public networks
where people post information
and conversation with each other.
And that, too, is a public space,
but it isn't really because a lot of the forums
are owned by big companies.
Prodigy is owned by IBM and Sears,
and you don't have First Amendment rights in those places.
And yet, they are the ones that are supplying this forum
for people to talk and communicate and perhaps dissent,
but that's not something they can really do.
Dissent, if it falls within their rules.
You cannot talk about competitors, for instance.
You can't talk about things
they consider to be obscene or immoral.
And it's a very good parallel.
The malls are kind of being personified
on the computer networks as well by these companies,
Prodigy, CompuServe, Genie, what have you.
So I think what we need is more individual control,
individual access to the networks
and to public areas as well.
It's interesting.
You wouldn't think that computer hackers
would be at the forefront of something like this.
You'd think we'd just be busy
breaking into computer systems.
Well, it's not like that.
It's a lot bigger than that.
At first glance, and while I say at first glance,
if you take a look at the Forbes magazine that just came out,
I haven't seen it yet,
but I've heard nothing but bad things about it.
Kind of a knee-jerk reaction to hackers
is that they are evil, that they're out to get you,
that they're out to rip you off.
And if anything, listen to what you've heard
in this particular program.
We are spreading information of things
that can only help if you're aware of them.
If you're aware of your rights,
if you're aware of what freedom of speech is all about,
if you're aware of how the phone company can rip you off
and how your name is stored in various places
and your privacy is not a very sacred thing anymore,
you have only to benefit from that.
Okay, we're gonna take some phone calls.
212-279-3400.
And I should also point out
that we have a little bit of extra time tonight
because the news ran a little short,
so we're gonna be on until 12 minutes after 11
and not a moment past that.
So give us a call, 212-279-3400.
If you have any questions
about anything you've heard on this show
or in past shows or anything else
that you want to bring up,
just ask a couple of favors.
That you turn down your radio
and that you keep it fairly short.
We don't want any long speeches
and various things of that nature.
All right, 212-279-3400.
Good evening.
Is this the unhooked show?
Well, it's off the hook
and I imagine that's the show you're trying to reach.
Yeah.
Okay, you got it then.
Okay.
Go ahead, you're on the air.
I am, okay.
Last week you were talking about touch tone service.
Yes.
And the phone company back in 1983
had proposed a rate proposal.
But they wanted to phase it out over five years.
So I wrote a letter to the Public Service Commission
about three years ago.
They answered me that if they considered a premium service
and it should pay for other people's service.
Now, Consumer Reports said on this subject
that it's costing them more to provide the rotary service
than it does to the tone service.
Absolutely.
And I use a switchable phone
to get around that charge from the phone company.
For the seven seconds a call,
it's not worth paying them the money for the tone service.
Yeah, absolutely.
And you're doing a smart thing by doing that.
But keep in mind, they're not providing you any service.
They're robbing you of service when they do that.
But they're using it.
I'd rather see if they wanna keep rates down,
let them take it out of the state income tax.
At least I can take that off of my federal income tax.
Well, I mean, there's all kinds of solutions
that we can offer.
But I think the basic fact is
that they're robbing us blind by charging us for this.
And it's not the only thing.
Charging you to not be in the phone book.
Charging you for call return.
You lose my number, my name, and a fake name,
so I get around that.
Okay, that's smart too.
If you use a fake name, you won't get charged,
and you'll also be, in effect, unlisted.
Yeah, the only thing an unlisted number gives you
is that in an emergency,
if somebody wants to reach you
and he forgets your number, the operator can get you.
Other than service, I don't need that service.
I don't have to pay for that.
Uh-huh.
Yeah, there's a lot of things,
a lot of ways you can save money with the phone company.
Because, you know, the wire maintenance charge,
touch tone fee, various services
that you can duplicate using your own equipment.
It's just not worth it.
I know.
Yeah.
All right, thanks for calling.
Thank you.
Okay, nothing like an educated consumer, right?
Good evening.
Good evening.
I agree 100% with that last caller.
Uh-huh.
Not having to pay someone a dollar.
I'd have to say, an educated consumer
is not the phone company's best,
how's that phrase going?
Oh, yeah.
Educated consumer is our best customer?
I was running the phone company once
and they ran me all around, telling me to go here.
And then when I went there,
they told me to go to another place.
The other place told me to go to the other place.
But you know where you can tell the phone company to go.
Yeah, I mean.
Okay, as long as you know that, that's all that matters.
I mean, as much as I like them,
they're a big running around.
I guess it's such a big company.
But you see, you like the people.
You like Mrs. Schwartz or Mrs. Goodfellow
that calls you and talks to you and is very nice to you.
But she represents the evil empire.
Right.
As long as you know that.
My question is,
is there gonna be a 2600 meeting January 1st?
Is that the first Friday of the month?
Yeah.
Oh, boy.
You know, I don't think that's ever happened before.
You know, I guess we're committed to doing it,
but that's gonna be a difficult day.
Well, you know, most of the festivities
take place on December 31st.
So January 1st, it depends on how much festivities
there were the night before.
I think, you know, I don't see any reason why not.
Okay.
And I have one more cold card discovery.
When I went into a Wallbounce
and said I lost money in the cold card phone,
they said, it's the city's pay phone.
I mean.
The city's pay phone?
I know that that was a lie.
That certainly is.
The city doesn't go around
sticking private pay phones in Wallbounce.
And also, I saw a New Jersey bell instruction card
on a phone in Manhattan, on a cold card phone in Manhattan.
I saw a bell of Pennsylvania one there.
Well, people just, you know,
they goof off and they stick the wrong cards.
How do they malfunction sometimes?
I mean, like one, I pick up the phone once,
I dial a number, it gives me an unrestricted dial tone.
I hang up for a second, pick it up again,
I do the same thing and it works fine,
but the way it's supposed to work.
Well, you know, they're not made all that well.
I find that with computers too.
And did you try that 818-9901 and 212?
I could comment on that one.
Yeah, FiberOptic tried it
and he has a few words to say about it.
Yeah, that was in 212?
818-9901.
Yeah, if you listen very, very carefully,
it dials back 212-818.
Right, what about the 914-769-9901?
Uh, what was that one again?
Oh, that didn't actually read it off.
That's the one that just read off your number.
Right, 914-769-9901.
Yeah, that just read off 914
and then the prefix, if I recall.
Yeah, you should try that.
Yeah, and I commented last week
that that was nothing abnormal.
Well, the only abnormal thing about that was
that I believe you said it was a digital exchange.
Or so he says.
Yeah, well, how do you know it's a digital exchange,
for one thing?
Because it doesn't click.
Well, that's not the only way to tell.
That's not the universal symbol.
Oh, a digital switch is that it does not click
on the first ring and it does not click
when it's picked up.
It could be a very clean analog switch.
Yeah.
Oh, there's no such thing as a clean,
the cleanest analog switch is one pop click.
Mm-hmm.
Well, it sounds like you've done your research.
We'll try it out.
We will try it out.
Why does some number five ESS switch,
when I make, like, if I was to call you
and you were on a number five ESS,
if I was to let it ring, it would click off.
If you were to let it ring.
After a certain amount of time.
After a certain amount of time, you're right,
it does click off.
Yeah, that's true of DMS-100s as well.
Yeah, so what's your question?
It's five ESS.
Why is that?
Because the phone company isn't making money
while you're ringing.
That's very true.
It's another example of how they're becoming
more and more greedy,
something that they would allow in the past
and not allowing now.
Now, yeah, because on this analog,
the number one ESS, like what you are on,
I mean, if you were on a number five ESS,
Well, you know, it's interesting.
I mean, nobody would get through.
It's interesting you should say that
because I'm sure sometime in 1993,
the WBAI exchange of 279 will be cut over
from a number one to a number five, probably,
and then people calling us right now
are going to be disconnected after ringing
for, say, 25 times,
and that's gonna be a major pain.
Really?
Yeah, that's gonna be a major pain.
I don't know what we're gonna do about that.
And, all right, try that 7699901 thing and the 914.
Okay, thanks for letting us know.
All right.
See you.
See you at 2600 or?
Okay, whatever.
January 1st.
January 1st.
Okay.
212-279-3400.
Julian, you look amazed.
Our call is what you expected?
I'm having the time of my life here, but what?
The hacker culture is, it defies words.
Indeed it does.
Just put it that way.
Anybody there?
Hold on.
Good evening.
Ryan, I have the article in my hand
that Emmanuel's talking about.
The Forbes article?
Yes.
Boy.
You're holding it in your bare hands.
Bare hands.
Wow.
You're more trusting than I am.
You see what it says about him?
Uh-huh, what does it say?
Well, let me see.
He looks as if he's in his mid-30s
and wear a 1960s-style long black hair.
60s-style long black hair.
So long black hair only is in the 60s.
No, he's got bob-length, curly, I mean, I know what.
It's blasphemy, isn't it?
This is disgusting.
You're talking about fiber optic,
who's very, you know, related to me anyway, so.
Wait, say that again?
Oh, fiber optic.
You know fiber optic?
Related to me.
Fiber optic is related to you.
Is that what you're saying?
Yes.
Okay, well, he doesn't seem to recognize you.
Oh.
Sorry to say, I've never seen him look so confused.
In fact, he's speechless.
I'm at a loss for words.
Tell him to take off that black bandana and give it back.
You know what I'm talking about.
Okay.
I certainly will.
Anything else?
No.
Okay.
Can I talk to fiber optic?
I'm right here.
Hi, Mark.
Hi.
How you doing?
I'm all right.
That's good, you gotta see this thing.
It's hysterical.
Yeah, I'm sure it is.
What's the gist of the article?
Is it pro?
I don't think it's very pro hacker, is that right?
It's really, it's disgusting.
Absolutely disgusting.
I mean, it's like, when they talk about fiber optic,
they say what you were indicted for, blah, blah, blah,
including members of MLT,
and at the end it says fiber optic claims
that he's innocent claiming.
I don't think it's very accusing.
Uh-huh.
Well, we'll just have to drop by a newsstand
and pick it up and...
And burn it.
Yeah, just have to be careful not to eat anything first.
All right, listen, thanks for sharing that with us.
Sure, no problem.
All right.
Bye.
Take care.
212-279-3400 is our phone number.
Good evening.
Hi.
How you doing?
Oh, I'm good.
How are you?
I'm good, how are you?
I'm good, how are you?
I'm good, how are you?
Hi.
How you doing?
Okay, I have a question.
Go ahead.
Okay, I actually got a question,
a little bit of data from last week.
You were talking about credit reporting.
Yes.
And said that TRW gives an annual free credit report.
The reason they do that, I believe it was a,
they came to an agreement with the Federal Trade Commission.
I know that there was a suit
because they were giving inaccurate information
to people, so they were forced
to give one annual free report.
Additionally, you would call that,
I don't know which credit reporting,
but one company, and they charge different amounts
depending on, for the credit reports.
And that's because if someone uses your credit report
to get information about you,
some company, you know, for like a credit card or whatever,
you have 60 days from their acting on that report
to get a copy of that report for yourself for free
so you can see what influenced their decision.
Correct.
For most people, that's a bit of a pain
because you've got to make the move.
You've got to contact them, you've got to send them a letter.
It doesn't sound like much, but, you know,
when's the last time you sent a letter to a corporation
typing out, you know, a request?
Yeah.
It should be easier for you to get it
and less easy for other people to get it.
That's true.
It seems simple enough.
I don't know why, you know,
they can't come up with this themselves.
Because they're a company.
Like, you know, my ideal world would have them sending you.
Automatically.
Automatically by some kind of thing
where you have to sign for it.
Basically a list of what they have on you
and asking you to sign it and return it if it's correct.
And if it's not correct, make the corrections.
That way you have people that only authorize their credit,
you know, to go through participating.
And if they don't authorize it,
then, you know, they recognize
they may not get credit in the future
because they're not, you know, giving you the data.
But to just have all this information on people
without asking them anything is wrong, I think.
I agree.
Okay, thanks for calling.
212-279-3400.
Julian, you ever seen your credit report?
Yes, as a matter of fact,
courtesy of a trio of teenage hackers
who just, they asked for my social security number,
which is easy enough to get,
whether I gave it to them or not.
And they returned the next day with my credit report.
And did you feel violated?
I felt used.
I felt cheap.
I felt very cheap because my credit report was pathetic.
But you always feel like that, right?
Yeah.
The thing is, you never got it before.
No, I had never seen it until these boys made it available.
Did you know it existed?
I had some inkling that it did exist, yeah.
Which credit report was it, TRW or TransUnion?
I assume it was, yeah, I think it was TRW.
Because one credit report does not the whole story tell.
Yeah, right.
There's lots of them,
and there's lots of other files that we all have.
And those are only the good ones among us.
The bad ones among us have even more files
than various other agencies.
And not only is it hard to find out what those files are,
it's almost impossible to find out the names
of the agencies.
It's a long and difficult web.
Good evening.
Hello?
Okay, let's try another one.
Good evening.
Oh, good evening.
Hello?
Yes, can you speak up, please?
Yeah, I kind of tuned in the middle of this,
but who meets at the Citicorp and when?
What time of day?
Okay, these are computer hackers.
2600 Club.
Well, it's not really a club,
it's just 2600 is the magazine.
And what we do at the magazine
is encourage people to get together,
spread ideas, talk, meet each other,
and not run around and hide,
but be open about what they're interested in.
Because the way it's been portrayed in the past,
people have been sort of pressured
into going underground.
And we don't think that's right
because they're not doing anything wrong.
Actually, it's not safe.
It's not safe, but if you treat people like criminals,
they will begin to act like criminals,
and these people are not criminals.
Yeah, listening to what you're talking about,
the more public you are, the safer you are, actually.
The more public you are, right.
Yeah.
But, so you gave the location, Citicorp,
and you, but I don't know when.
Oh, yeah, you know, I didn't say the time.
It's first Friday of the month from five to eight p.m.
in the lobby of the Citicorp Center.
And there's also meetings that take place
in Philadelphia, Cambridge,
oh, I didn't say the P, did I?
Citicorp.
And Cambridge, Massachusetts, Philadelphia,
Washington, D.C., Pittsburgh, Chicago,
St. Louis, Austin, Los Angeles, San Francisco,
and I think Boise, Idaho.
And Munich, Germany, too.
But what part of the lobby?
In New York, it's...
Of the Citicorp.
It's where?
In front of Alfredo's.
Yeah, in front of Alfredo's, the Mexican place.
Oh, okay.
Yeah, that part.
All right.
It's kind of hard to miss us.
Okay.
Thanks a lot.
Okay, take care.
And we don't really have any problem
with mall security people there.
Well, it's not a mall, really, but...
There's never been any hassle at Citicorp?
No, not really, not that I can think of.
Once they told us to stop smoking.
But that potentially, you know...
Maybe it was the way they said it.
Yeah, that potential crisis was resolved pretty quickly
when we stopped smoking.
Little things like that, you know,
you can resolve with a little diplomacy,
but I don't know, they're pretty pig-headed down in D.C.
I think right now they're content to stand back.
As long as nothing horrible happens,
and they saw that nothing horrible happens
this past meeting, they're not gonna bother us.
But the Secret Service is still gonna be out there,
and other agencies will be out there
watching in various ways.
It's frightening when you think of teenage kids
having to deal with this.
I have to wonder what kind of impression they're getting
of the way the government works,
the way our society functions,
when you have grown men in suits and ties
and little microphones running around, spying on them.
You know, trying to record their faces,
their names, their voices.
And all they're interested in is how a computer system works.
You know, it's rather weird.
Okay, let's take another phone call.
212-279-3400.
We do have an extra 10 minutes or so tonight
because the news ran a little short.
So keep that in mind.
Good evening.
Oh, hi.
Am I on the air?
You're on the air now.
I have a very interesting topic I wanted to talk about.
I am a owner of a private payphone,
and I don't know if you've heard lately
what's been going on on Long Island.
What's that?
Well, they've been using this access number,
and they've been able to call Pakistan,
and it gets charged to the private payphone owner's number.
So we've been getting like $1,000, $2,000 charges.
And if you'd like, I can give you the number
and you could play with it.
It's very interesting.
If I try to dial it myself, you have to do it a few times,
and then it gives this beep as if you have to put
like some kind of a black box or something into it.
Okay.
But what we did is we put a record,
not a tape recorder, but the thing
that prints out the numbers,
and we've been catching what these numbers are.
And the phone company doesn't seem
to want to do anything about it.
Well, you know, when you say you own a payphone,
are you leasing this phone from somebody?
No, this is a co-cut line.
Uh-huh.
So is it your physical phone?
You own the phone.
Okay.
Did you buy the phone from somebody?
Yeah.
Now, is this a problem within the phone itself?
No.
It's a phone number that they're able to call?
Yeah, it's an actual 800 number.
And if you call that 800 number, you get a beep.
Okay.
And someone is able to, with some kind of a black box,
because what I did is I put one of those machines
that when they dial, it prints out on a printer.
Right.
So all these calls, what they did was
they put in the 800 number,
then they accessed AT&T,
because it showed the AT&T access code,
then they called the country code,
and, you know, they went through it that way.
Now, how is it getting billed back to your number?
Because I don't know how it's getting billed back.
You see, we've been calling AT&T.
They don't know what's going on.
We've been calling New York Tell.
They don't know.
They don't want to admit to what's going on.
That's why we put that printer in the line
so we could find out how they're doing it.
So you're not seeing somebody dialing direct overseas.
You're seeing someone dial direct through this 800 number.
Exactly.
In other words, our pay phone,
if you try to dial direct, like using a country code,
they'll just say, this number cannot be dialed.
Let me ask you something.
Are you sure that they're not calling this 800 number,
waiting for it to hang up,
and then getting an unrestricted dial tone when it does?
No, no.
All it gives you is this tone.
I played with it, and sometimes it hangs up on you,
and I've noticed, like,
they'll try it over and over and over again.
Okay.
And even when we went and put lid on it
and gotten rid of any long-distance service,
they can still get through with the 800 number.
And it's the same number they use over and over again.
You know, I could give it to you.
You could play around with it.
Yeah, we can certainly do that.
Now, what does the phone company say?
Are they charging you, and you're not-
Well, see, now the phone company
is claiming right now that don't worry about it.
Then we talked to AT&T about it, and they said,
well, it's going on all over the entire island.
We're taking care of it.
But there seems to be a fear somehow
that, you know, we might get sued anyway.
And somehow, nobody seems to be able
to figure out how it's happening.
The phone company does not want to admit
that they know what's going on.
AT&T doesn't admit that they know what's going on.
The Payphone Association,
a friend of mine went to the Payphone Association.
They said they all know what the number is.
They presented it to the phone company,
and they act like, well, we don't know what's going on.
Okay, why don't you give us the number,
and we'll see what we can figure out.
Okay, the number is 1-800, or just 800, whatever, 997-7000.
Sounds like a pretty business-like number there, 997-7000.
Now, you could call it three times,
and it'll hang up on you,
and the fourth time, you'll hear a beep.
You can't do anything with the beep,
but obviously, when I looked at the numbers
that he was dialing,
somehow he was able to get it to work,
and we have a suspicion that he might've gotten
this number from the phone company
or may have worked for the phone company.
I don't know how else he could figure this out.
Okay, we'll have some of our experts look into it,
and I'm sure BAI listeners will look into it as well,
and hopefully in a week or so, we'll have some answers.
In the meantime, though, make sure that you don't get stuck
with any of these bills because of someone else's
incompetence, whether it be the payphone manufacturer,
the long-distance company, or your local phone company.
Oh, you see, we checked everything out, okay?
We tried everything.
The payphone itself does not allow.
We went through AT&T with this thoroughly.
We called them.
Every number that AT&T possibly has out there
cannot access anything through our payphones
because we have everything restricted, okay?
The only problem is, you see,
the payphones do not have the capability
of restricting 800 numbers
because the payphone assumes that an 800 number
is gonna be a free call.
Well, you know, most people assume that as well,
and we're gonna document this in upcoming shows.
There are an increasing number of cases
where 800 calls are routed to things that charge you money,
which I think is something we should not stand for.
I agree.
I don't see how you're gonna be able to weed out
800 numbers that charge
against 800 numbers that don't charge.
And even, let's assume even that they do have
an 800 number that they charge,
then they should at least publish the number
before it's gonna come out,
which means that we can go back to our supplier,
get a new rate chip, and cut that out.
But this number here was non-published.
Nobody knows about it.
The phone company doesn't know about it.
AT doesn't, AT&T, we only found it out
by putting the printer on
and then looking at the bill and matching the numbers.
Even on the bill, it doesn't show the access code.
It only shows the actual long-distance number
that was-
Your printer should show that.
Yeah, the printer does, but the bill doesn't.
Right.
We should note, though,
that since the number was given out on the air,
that all these listeners shouldn't be calling it from home
because they're unknowingly giving these strangers
their home telephone number just by dialing it.
That's true.
Right.
So you gotta be careful about that.
We'll look into this.
I know there are a couple of interesting things
floating around out there, and this might be one of them.
Let me ask something, though.
As somebody who operates a private pay phone,
what kind of things do you block?
Because I know that's a big bone of contention
among a lot of people, is the blocking things that go on.
Well, we basically, the only things that we block
is the stuff that the phone company gives us to block,
and that is the 900 numbers.
What is it, the 950, 976?
Okay, why do you block 950?
Well, because, well, I don't know what,
I don't know if we block 950.
It's just happening to be in the book,
or I forget about 950, but we block it.
Well, you mean the phone company gives you
that option to block, and you see,
the reason I don't like that is because 950
is a very useful service,
and it doesn't cost anything to call.
Oh, then we probably don't have it blocked,
because I think, you know, I'm not sure,
but I was just reading this over here,
but the ones I do know is 900, 976.
Right.
You know, some of the 700 calls.
Right, that makes sense.
You know, that's about it.
You know, basically the ones that charge,
because, you know, we have no control
over how much they charge for these 900 numbers.
You know, if we could, then I wouldn't mind.
I just would, you know, include it
in whatever the phone charges,
but everybody has such a range of, you know, you can't.
Right.
Let me ask you something.
When you connect a call,
do you block the touch tones from that point,
or do you allow people to still use them?
No, we allow people to still use them
so that they can access their, you know,
answering machine and stuff like that.
Well, it sounds like you're running a good system.
It really does.
I mean, I've met pay phones that do horrible things,
like they allow 950 access and they cut out the touch tones,
or they, you know, they charge an absorbent amount.
Yeah, well, see, I remember you mentioning that
during one of the times that I've listened to you,
and I wanted to mention that not all
of the private pay phone owners out there
are trying to, like, you know, screw the people, you know.
We have our rates as near as possible
to the phone companies,
and we have it try to work as much as it would,
you know, for New York telephone.
Yeah, and it's also something
that a lot of people don't realize
is that you've got to go through your main competitor
to get service in the first place,
which is New York telephone.
Exactly, yeah.
That's awfully difficult to do,
and of course, they don't give you the best deal.
Plus, we don't charge, like, for 411.
I've heard a lot of people are doing that, you know.
But don't you get charged for 411?
No, because they fought it in court,
and, you know, because New York telephone
doesn't charge for 411 on their pay phones,
they fought it in court to allow us not to charge for 411.
Great, okay, that's a good deal.
So, we were charging it, but then when we won the case,
then, you know, we all changed it back to it free now.
I know a lot of people haven't changed it.
And that should apply for the entire 132 ladder,
for Nassau-Suffolk and 914 as well.
Right.
All right, listen, good luck.
We'll let you know what happens.
We'll play around with this.
Okay, take care.
Yeah, bye.
And, yeah, I've said in the past
that not all private pay phones are bad.
And those good ones should be fighting all the more
to make sure the bad ones are weeded out.
Because private pay phones can be a good thing.
It can be good to have competition.
But the way things are now,
it's most people see a private pay phone
and they just sort of steer away from it.
Or if you want to call Pakistan,
sometimes they go right towards it.
I don't know, we'll find out what the deal with that is.
Good evening, Iran.
Hi, I have a question for Dr. Kako.
No, no, no, no, you're about two hours late.
All right.
That's okay.
That's something.
Some of these people are very, very dedicated.
Let's try another one.
Oh, that's even more dedicated.
Good evening.
Hello?
Yeah, go ahead.
Yeah, I'm on?
Yeah, you are.
Hello?
Not anymore, you know.
Our patience only lasts so long.
Good evening.
Hi, I have a question about how some of these
New York telephone custom calling features
work together with each other.
Let's say you call me and I have my phone calls
forwarded to my friend's house and he has caller ID.
What does he see in his?
That's a very good question,
and one that I'm dying to try myself.
And I'd like to know if other people out there
can try this and tell me what happens.
I mean.
Who's all call restrict will take precedence there,
you know?
That's a great question.
You call somebody, you harass somebody,
and then you forward your line to, say,
their biggest enemy, who isn't you,
and then they call return your harassing call.
Do they get their biggest enemy or do they get you?
Oh, right, that's another good question.
Yeah, so these are, you know,
questions of the new electronic phone systems
that we have to ask ourselves.
Also, I have a comment about something similar
to the Blockbuster account information thing
that you presented last week.
Yes.
I'm a customer of Quix Cable, BQ Quix Cable,
and I call their automated bill checking service.
You can find out how much you owe,
when your last payment was made, and all that.
And all they ask for is your telephone number.
And now, each subscriber already has,
like, a 15-digit unique ID number
that they could use for that purpose,
but they decide to use the phone number instead.
So you're saying all I have to do is call BQ Quix,
is that what it's called?
Right.
And give them a phone number,
and then they'll be able to do what?
They'll be able to find out, well,
it would be helpful if you knew the person's,
you could connect the phone number to the person already.
Like, if you-
Well, there's this great big book that's published
that has a whole list of numbers and names next to them.
Well, there you go.
You could find out the list of pay-per-view movies,
and what the bill status is, and how much you owe,
and what-
So you're saying I can call BQ Quix, or whatever.
I can simply give them a phone number and a name,
and they will tell me what movies that person has watched.
You won't even have to say.
You'll put it in the computer.
It'll read it back to you, ask you if that's right.
If it's right, you say, you press one for yes,
and it can tell you anything about your account.
Is that so?
Yeah.
And what's the phone number for that?
That's 358, it's 718-358-0900.
On the preview guide on the BQ cable,
the preview guide channel,
they run ads for that all the time.
But-
That's something.
Okay, we're gonna check into that as well.
I've got a lot of checking into to do, and-
I have spoken to the management there, though,
and I suggested, since they already have
the account number for each subscriber,
why don't they use that?
It's a much longer number.
And the guy said it's a good suggestion.
He'll get back to me on that.
That was just a week ago, let's say.
Uh-huh, well, we'll see what happens.
I can't believe they wouldn't think of that
on their own, though.
All right, well, thanks for bringing that to our attention.
Thanks a lot.
Keep your eyes open.
Thanks.
I should point out, it's three minutes after 11 o'clock.
You're listening to WBAI New York.
The WBAI Evening News rebroadcast will be on
at 12 minutes after 11 o'clock.
The reason for that is that it ran a little bit short,
and Robert Knight is coming on at 11.45,
so we just wanna make sure the schedule
runs nice and smoothly.
So we're using this extra time to hear
from some more of our listeners.
So let's see who's out there.
Good evening.
Yes, hello, I was wondering,
I'm trying to do some little radio
and telephone projects, electronic projects.
And you're on a cordless phone, right?
Yeah.
Okay.
Go ahead.
Yeah, I'm on a cordless phone right now.
I suppose you can tell.
You sound like you're soaring through the air.
I am.
Yeah, like an insect or something.
Um, you know, I know that there used to be a lot
of outlets where you can get electronic equipment
down around Canal Street, and they're not there anymore.
Is there any place around there where one might find
this kind of electronic surplus type stuff?
Wait, they've all gone?
Well, most of them, pretty much, yeah.
Well, why is that?
I don't know.
If we can figure out why that is,
we might be able to figure out where they went.
All right.
Did they all go to New Jersey or something, or?
I don't know.
This is news to me.
I didn't know they had all disappeared.
Walking through Canal Street was like being in Neuromancer.
You were able to, yeah.
To find all kinds of, you know,
robotic spare parts and things.
I do know what he means, though.
A lot of them, like, I think it was called Pan Am
or Trans Am or whatever it was called.
That was a big one that's gone now.
But your best bet, really, is just mail order.
Okay.
To, just a suggestion,
you can call 800-DIRECTORY-ASSISTANCE.
And two reasonable names to ask for
is Jameco, J-A-M-E-C-O.
Right.
And Digikey, D-I-G-I-K-E-Y.
Okay.
They're two of your larger electronics warehouses,
and you could order all kinds of stuff by mail.
Just ask for a catalog.
It just takes a little bit longer,
and it's not quite as, you know.
They can do it overnight if you find a good one.
Yeah, but it's not as discreet if you have to, you know.
Oh, that's true.
Yeah, that's true.
And also, you don't get to play around with it.
You have to know exactly what you want.
Yeah.
Well, the call is out for listeners.
If they have any suggestions,
we'll certainly pass it along.
Great show.
I'm listening up here in Hudson Valley,
which is kind of a ways away.
How's the reception?
Oh, it's pretty good.
That's good.
Good as can be expected.
Okay.
Well, thanks for listening.
Yep, bye.
Listening to Off the Hook,
the program about high technology
and new developments, threats, big brother,
hackers, you name it.
And we come your way every Wednesday night
from 10 to 11 o'clock on WBAI.
We've got an extra four more minutes tonight
to bring you more listener phone calls.
We have in the studio Julian DeBell
from The Village Voice, FiberOptic as usual.
Julian, any comments
since we're only down to our last four minutes on anything?
The hacker world or new technology or anything like that?
The Village Voice has a big section.
Put in a plug for our new,
the section is called Wired.
It used to be the Tube section,
but since television is very soon gonna be so full
of microchips and telephones and God knows what else
that it doesn't really make any sense anymore
to talk about the television separate
from all these other sort of technological trends.
So we have collapsed the Tube section
into the Wired section.
And there'll be lots of stuff
about all kinds of digital technology
and I'll have a monthly column called Strange Loops.
Look for it.
Okay, what kind of things are you gonna be covering?
Well, for instance, the secret service secret raid
on the DC 2600 meeting.
Give me some material.
All right, there's plenty of material
in the hacker world to keep you going.
That's for sure.
All right, let's take a couple more calls
and we'll be putting the news on in just a couple of minutes.
Good evening, you're on off the hook.
Hello?
Yeah, go ahead.
All right.
Where are you calling from?
Well, I'm calling from an area.
All right, I'm calling from a restaurant.
Yeah, it sounds like you're in a restaurant.
I know, I'm down from Maine and I had a few questions.
You're down from, oh, down from the state,
that sounded like a code of some sort, down from Maine.
I'm down from Maine, yes, I'm driving through New York.
Okay, it's a very good quality phone, I'll say that.
Say what?
You have a very good connection.
I can tell you're in a restaurant.
It's very clear.
All right, first of all,
I tried a red box on one of the New England,
not New England telephone, New York telephones.
Yeah, that's the kind we tend to have here.
Yeah, they don't work worth crap.
Second of all, I'm really curious
how you guys can publicly talk about this on the air.
Well, now, you see, you see,
now, we're not publicly telling people
to use red boxes on pay phones,
but we are telling you what technology does
and what technology works, what technology does not work.
The thing that you define as a red box
is simply several tones that are sent down the phone
and simulate quarters, dimes, and nickels.
And I can tell you that red boxes
do work all over New York.
Maybe the phone you're at now, it doesn't work at.
Some phones it does, some phones it does not.
It's a major security hole
for all the phone companies in the country
and something that I assume they're working to fix.
But again, we don't encourage people to do that
because it is stealing revenue.
Right.
No question about it.
I was just curious because, you know,
up in Maine, somebody says the word hacker or freaker,
everybody's, you know.
It's a good way to clear a bar, right?
Right, it's like voodoo.
Yeah.
Well, this is Sin City here, you know.
Yeah, this is Sin City, we can get away
with things like that.
But seriously, I mean, there's nothing wrong
with being a hacker.
Being a hacker is just somebody
that is interested in learning.
Well, yeah, that's what happens when you get bored.
Uh-huh.
You ask questions.
A previous caller, earlier caller,
who was talking about the COCOTS.
Yeah.
My feeling on that is they're probably just dialing up
the 800 number, waiting for it to hang up
and then getting an unrestricted dial tone.
That was my initial-
I believe there was a informatic issue.
Uh-huh.
I think it was issue number four.
Earlier they covered COCOTS.
Yeah, well, I mean, that was my initial impression, too,
that that's what was happening,
but I don't think that's the case
because this person did seem
to be pretty knowledgeable about the phones.
We'll check into it, though,
and see what is really going on.
Listen, we're out of time.
All right.
But good luck up in Maine.
Hopefully, you'll start some hacker meetings up there
and keep going on.
We've got them already.
Oh, really?
Okay.
We've already got our whole family of techno-narcs.
Okay, well, just be careful of skulking feds
and things like that.
Okay, take care.
All right, thanks.
And that was a hacker from a restaurant in New York
who's down from Maine.
And that's just about gonna do it from us here
at Off the Hook,
where we're just about ready for the news,
which is starting late
because it's much shorter than it usually is.
We'll be back again next week
with another edition of Off the Hook
and some telephone scandals of various sorts
and the results of some of the questions
posed to us by listeners tonight,
next week at 10 o'clock next Wednesday night.
Again, the Personal Computer Show
can now be heard at nine o'clock.
And usually, the news rebroadcast goes on at 11,
but tonight, it's going on at 12 minutes after.
This is Emanuel Goldstein.
Thanks to Julian DeBell and FiberOptic for coming in.
We'll see you again next week.
Good night.
♪ The telephone keeps ringing so I ripped it off the wall ♪
♪ I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a call ♪
♪ It couldn't get much worse, but if they could they would ♪
♪ Von Diddley Bonk for the best, expect the worst ♪
♪ I hope that's understood, Von Diddley Bonk! ♪
♪♪
Good evening.
In the news tonight,
women athletes are beginning to score points
in the courtroom.
Is the media opposing the bigger threat in Somalia?
The Intifada, has it hurt or helped the Palestinian cause?
And the Alvin Ailey American Dance Theater
opens tonight at City Center.
Stay tuned for our special tribute
to the man and his company.
With these and other stories,
I'm Laura Seidel with Verna Avery-Brann in Washington.
And this is the news for Wednesday, December 9th, 1992.
First, to Mark Bevis with these headline stories.
Former CIA official, Claire George,
has been convicted on two counts of lying to Congress
about his knowledge of the Iran-Contra affair.
Each count carries a maximum penalty
of five years in prison and a $250,000 fine.
George was cleared of five other charges
of lying to Congress and to a grand jury.
George told Congress in 1986,
he didn't know who was behind the Contra resupply effort.
Prosecutors charged George did know about the roles
of Oliver North, Richard Secord and Felix Rodriguez
in the Iran-Contra affair.
A Justice Department special counsel said today,
there's no need to appoint an independent prosecutor
to investigate the Bush administration's involvement
in illegal loans to Iraq.
Judge Frederick Lacy.
As to both aspects of my study,
I see no warrant at all for the appointment
of a statutory independent counsel.
Attorney General William Barr
is expected to go along with that recommendation.
The case involved loans channeled to Iraq
through the Atlanta branch of the Italian bank, BNL.
The CIA withheld evidence from the Justice Department
that the bank's headquarters in Rome knew about the loans.
A contingent of 1800 US Marines
is ending its first day in Mogadishu,
the capital of Somalia.
The Marines reportedly have met with almost no resistance
and no casualties are reported.
The Mogadishu airport received a plane load
of relief supplies for the first time in a month.
Elsewhere in Somalia, violence continues.
Aid workers had to be evacuated
from the southern port of Kishmayu
and fighting continues in the central city of Badoa.
Pentagon spokesperson Michael Kramer says
the military hopes to bring an end to the fighting
in areas outside Mogadishu.
There certainly has been some increased fighting
over the last 72 hours.
Having said that, we're beginning,
and matter of fact, it started about the time
the Marines hit the ground last night.
We're beginning to see this subside
and I'm confident that as we go into these forward airfields
as the plan is laid out,
that we're going to see, hopefully,
the same kind of situation that we witnessed in Mogadishu.
Russian President Boris Yeltsin
suffered a humiliating political defeat today.
The Congress of People's Deputies
rejected his candidate for Prime Minister, Yegor Gaidar.
Andrew Harding reports from Moscow.
After a tense, even frantic afternoon of voting,
hardliners are celebrating a major blow
against Boris Yeltsin and his government.
Several ministers have said they'd resign
if the Congress refused to approve
the nomination of Yegor Gaidar as Prime Minister.
Their bluff has now been called.
But although the vote...