Off The Hook - 1993-01-27

[00:07.680 --> 00:11.840]  [SPEAKER_11]: And you're listening to WBAI New York, where Off the Hook is just around the corner.
[00:38.400 --> 00:48.940]  [SPEAKER_00]: That's this Saturday, 10 till midnight, at the Neorecan Poets Cafe, located at 236 East 3rd Street, between Avenues B and C.
[00:49.480 --> 01:03.800]  [SPEAKER_00]: Be there, and if you can't, tune it in right here, you know where, on Hey, we work hard for the money, send in your pledges, because we need them now more than ever before radio, 99.5 FM, WBAI.
[01:19.840 --> 01:23.680]  [SPEAKER_11]: And you're listening to WBAI New York.
[01:23.900 --> 01:29.000]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's 10.09, we're nine minutes late, but better late than never.
[01:29.740 --> 01:30.940]  [SPEAKER_11]: Off the Hook is On The Air.
[02:27.210 --> 02:29.690]  [SPEAKER_11]: And a good evening to one and all.
[02:29.930 --> 02:30.950]  [SPEAKER_11]: This is Off the Hook.
[02:31.170 --> 02:36.790]  [SPEAKER_11]: Emmanuel Goldstein with you for two hours tonight, as we wind down our marathon fundraising.
[02:36.790 --> 02:38.430]  [SPEAKER_11]: Hopefully, we'll do quite well tonight.
[02:38.730 --> 02:45.650]  [SPEAKER_11]: However, we're going to break with tradition a little bit, and go right into something that we never go right into.
[02:45.830 --> 02:46.490]  [SPEAKER_11]: Phone calls.
[02:46.630 --> 02:48.470]  [SPEAKER_11]: Give us a call right now, on the air.
[02:48.590 --> 02:52.610]  [SPEAKER_11]: 212-279-3407 is the special number to call.
[02:52.670 --> 02:54.130]  [SPEAKER_11]: No, no, not the fundraiser line.
[02:54.130 --> 02:59.750]  [SPEAKER_11]: Although, if you want to pledge money to us, of course, you want to call 212-279-3400.
[02:59.750 --> 03:02.390]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's kind of weird to watch the phones lighting up here.
[03:02.470 --> 03:05.450]  [SPEAKER_11]: You say something, and all of a sudden, you see a burst of activity.
[03:05.650 --> 03:09.190]  [SPEAKER_11]: And, of course, they all called the number that you expected them to call.
[03:09.290 --> 03:13.070]  [SPEAKER_11]: But that's not the number we're giving out today, because it's fundraising time.
[03:13.730 --> 03:17.610]  [SPEAKER_11]: So, to repeat, and since all the lines are busy now anyway, it's kind of a moot point.
[03:18.110 --> 03:27.830]  [SPEAKER_11]: If you want to call up and be on the air right now, at the beginning of the show, which is something we absolutely never do, then give a call to 212-279-3407.
[03:28.050 --> 03:30.790]  [SPEAKER_11]: But you'll hear a busy signal if you try that now, because you just weren't quick enough.
[03:31.090 --> 03:40.770]  [SPEAKER_11]: So, to console, you know, yourself and everybody else involved, give a call to the line that's wide open, which is 212-279-3400, and pledge something.
[03:41.230 --> 03:47.390]  [SPEAKER_11]: Because by pledging something, you allow us to continue to do wild and crazy things in the future.
[03:47.450 --> 03:51.050]  [SPEAKER_11]: And we've got some pretty interesting things lined up tonight.
[03:51.050 --> 03:57.270]  [SPEAKER_11]: Pretty interesting things, including something very progressive that's so controversial that we probably won't ever be allowed near the station again.
[03:58.170 --> 03:59.750]  [SPEAKER_11]: But that's just the way we are.
[03:59.970 --> 04:03.830]  [SPEAKER_11]: Let's see who's out there, take a couple of quick calls, and then we'll get right into this.
[04:04.610 --> 04:05.930]  [SPEAKER_11]: Good evening, you're on Off the Hook.
[04:07.130 --> 04:07.830]  [SPEAKER_13]: Hi there.
[04:08.370 --> 04:16.690]  [SPEAKER_13]: I've listened to your show for a while, and I was wondering if you can tell me about PBX systems, because my company has one, and I'm worried about hackers.
[04:17.050 --> 04:29.710]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, you should be worried if you have a PBX system, for sure, because PBX systems, private branch exchanges is what it stands for, those are sort of like independent phone companies run by your company.
[04:30.130 --> 04:33.870]  [SPEAKER_11]: And lots of times, companies are not meant to run their own phone systems.
[04:33.970 --> 04:36.770]  [SPEAKER_11]: Phone systems usually should be run by the phone company, i.e.
[04:36.910 --> 04:39.630]  [SPEAKER_11]: Centrex run by local phone companies.
[04:40.370 --> 04:52.670]  [SPEAKER_11]: When you have a PBX, though, you're opening yourself up to all kinds of problems, including overcharging or having people come in and get access to your system, get outside dial tones, and just go completely crazy.
[04:52.870 --> 04:55.630]  [SPEAKER_11]: So you've got to watch yourself.
[04:55.830 --> 04:57.130]  [SPEAKER_11]: You've got to be careful.
[04:58.750 --> 05:00.690]  [SPEAKER_11]: So PBXs are something that...
[05:00.690 --> 05:06.790]  [SPEAKER_11]: There's so many different kinds, so it's hard to sort of lay out the exact rules that apply for all of them.
[05:06.790 --> 05:13.270]  [SPEAKER_11]: But basically, PBXs are something to be wary of, and also something interesting to explore.
[05:13.370 --> 05:16.530]  [SPEAKER_11]: Dave Burstein is here, and he's got either a point or a question or a criticism or...
[05:16.530 --> 05:16.610]  [SPEAKER_12]: Question, question, question.
[05:16.670 --> 05:18.350]  [SPEAKER_12]: This fellow asked about PBXs.
[05:18.450 --> 05:18.610]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[05:18.930 --> 05:22.810]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, you can't say individual details, but let's ask it this way.
[05:22.890 --> 05:27.030]  [SPEAKER_12]: Is there any PBX that isn't interruptible or crackable?
[05:27.410 --> 05:29.230]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, in theory, I suppose there is.
[05:29.370 --> 05:33.350]  [SPEAKER_11]: But then again, you never really know until you try it for a couple of years.
[05:34.690 --> 05:36.030]  [SPEAKER_11]: But, Phiber, what do you think?
[05:36.030 --> 05:40.930]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, I think that if it's set up properly, then you shouldn't experience any problems with it.
[05:41.010 --> 05:54.430]  [SPEAKER_10]: But it seems that the companies that sell the PBXs to the corporations are not equipping them with the proper technical information that they need in order to understand the system, to program it properly, and to keep out intruders from misusing their facilities.
[05:54.630 --> 05:59.330]  [SPEAKER_11]: And then they turn around and they blame the end user, the customer, for anything that goes wrong.
[05:59.330 --> 06:02.250]  [SPEAKER_11]: If there's a $10,000 phone bill one month, well, it's not our fault.
[06:02.390 --> 06:03.470]  [SPEAKER_11]: You know, you did something wrong.
[06:03.590 --> 06:05.270]  [SPEAKER_11]: You didn't change the passwords.
[06:05.270 --> 06:09.810]  [SPEAKER_11]: Or, you know, sometimes it is their fault, but sometimes it's something inherently wrong with the system.
[06:10.710 --> 06:21.670]  [SPEAKER_11]: And, you know, we've been experiencing this to a sort of small degree at 2600, but our problem has been the phone company, not any independent entity, no independent PBXs.
[06:21.670 --> 06:27.490]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's simply false flaws within the phone company that allow certain things to go through, and they shouldn't allow them to go through.
[06:27.610 --> 06:29.590]  [SPEAKER_11]: And we keep telling them that, and they just won't listen.
[06:30.210 --> 06:30.990]  [SPEAKER_11]: But we're used to that.
[06:30.990 --> 06:32.210]  [SPEAKER_12]: Oh, but they do listen to you.
[06:32.370 --> 06:33.170]  [SPEAKER_11]: Oh, they listen, all right.
[06:33.290 --> 06:35.150]  [SPEAKER_11]: In fact, I think this is them right now.
[06:36.370 --> 06:38.250]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yes, that's a warning, all right.
[06:39.230 --> 06:41.650]  [SPEAKER_11]: Let's take another phone call and move on.
[06:41.810 --> 06:42.210]  [SPEAKER_11]: Good evening.
[06:42.730 --> 06:43.290]  [SPEAKER_05]: Good evening.
[06:43.990 --> 06:46.850]  [SPEAKER_05]: I've been dying to ask you a question for a long time.
[06:47.010 --> 06:48.190]  [SPEAKER_05]: Are you getting feedback from my radio?
[06:48.890 --> 06:49.810]  [SPEAKER_11]: Is that the question?
[06:50.070 --> 06:50.190]  [SPEAKER_11]: No.
[06:50.390 --> 06:50.710]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay.
[06:51.070 --> 06:52.130]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, no, I'm not.
[06:52.150 --> 06:53.430]  [SPEAKER_11]: And I hope you're not disappointed by that.
[06:53.550 --> 06:54.070]  [SPEAKER_05]: No, I'm not.
[06:54.450 --> 06:57.010]  [SPEAKER_05]: The question is, I need some advice.
[06:57.010 --> 07:03.330]  [SPEAKER_05]: I need to get an 800 service, and I wanted to inquire about which...
[07:03.910 --> 07:06.950]  [SPEAKER_05]: I don't know if you could recommend, or if you think I should write in, but...
[07:06.950 --> 07:08.270]  [SPEAKER_11]: You mean you just want an 800 number?
[07:08.530 --> 07:09.650]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, I want to get a...
[07:09.650 --> 07:15.230]  [SPEAKER_05]: For a small business that I'm operating from my home, I don't know which is the most reasonable in price.
[07:15.350 --> 07:17.130]  [SPEAKER_05]: I know there's Sprint, MCI, AT&T.
[07:17.290 --> 07:18.950]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, what would you think would be reasonable?
[07:19.110 --> 07:20.130]  [SPEAKER_11]: How much would you be willing to spend?
[07:20.790 --> 07:21.930]  [SPEAKER_05]: As little as possible.
[07:22.210 --> 07:22.850]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, but I mean...
[07:22.850 --> 07:35.390]  [SPEAKER_05]: I know that I think AT&T offers something that is like 40 cents per call, and it's a relatively small connection charge, like, I think they said $15 or something like that.
[07:35.390 --> 07:37.250]  [SPEAKER_11]: And do they have a monthly fee attached to that?
[07:38.650 --> 07:41.370]  [SPEAKER_05]: No, it's just a per call charge.
[07:41.570 --> 07:49.350]  [SPEAKER_11]: If it's just a per call charge and nothing else, and a small installation fee, that does sound like a pretty good deal, but did you say 40 cents per call?
[07:50.110 --> 07:51.630]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's what I believe they quoted me as.
[07:51.630 --> 07:53.250]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, that's very high, actually.
[07:54.250 --> 08:00.570]  [SPEAKER_11]: The one that I'm familiar with is cable and wireless, and that's the one I tend to recommend to people because it's versatile.
[08:00.570 --> 08:04.070]  [SPEAKER_11]: You can take an 800 number and you can program it.
[08:04.490 --> 08:04.850]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[08:05.030 --> 08:05.870]  [SPEAKER_11]: You got a call waiting coming in?
[08:05.930 --> 08:06.770]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I'm sorry.
[08:06.850 --> 08:07.650]  [SPEAKER_05]: I don't want to get...
[08:07.650 --> 08:10.570]  [SPEAKER_11]: That's the sound of call waiting on a number one ESS, by the way.
[08:10.670 --> 08:11.230]  [SPEAKER_11]: Or a 1A.
[08:11.350 --> 08:13.970]  [SPEAKER_11]: Or a 1A, but the loud clicking noise as opposed to the tone.
[08:14.550 --> 08:16.710]  [SPEAKER_11]: You can buy that box to imitate that, I bet.
[08:17.550 --> 08:22.910]  [SPEAKER_11]: But in any event, what you want is something that allows you to be versatile.
[08:23.170 --> 08:26.310]  [SPEAKER_11]: You can take your 800 number and you can make it ring someplace else.
[08:26.390 --> 08:35.910]  [SPEAKER_11]: Let's say you have to go to another location, your 800 number can follow you, and it costs $5 a month to have that service tacked on to the normal $15 a month they charge.
[08:35.910 --> 08:41.030]  [SPEAKER_05]: So in other words, could I connect it to my answering service?
[08:41.050 --> 08:45.690]  [SPEAKER_05]: Because I'd prefer not to have it ring in my home all the time.
[08:45.790 --> 08:45.910]  [SPEAKER_11]: Right.
[08:45.990 --> 08:46.490]  [SPEAKER_11]: You can have it.
[08:46.550 --> 08:52.150]  [SPEAKER_11]: All you'd have to do is call up and reprogram it any time you want, and you can send it to another location anywhere in the country.
[08:53.350 --> 09:06.550]  [SPEAKER_11]: Now, as far as cost, I don't know exactly what the cost is, but I have one set up to a beeper, and I know that I've seen on the bill when people call the beeper and just beep a number, which takes about, you know, 10 seconds, the cost is about $0.08.
[09:08.190 --> 09:08.870]  [SPEAKER_11]: So, um...
[09:08.870 --> 09:09.330]  [SPEAKER_11]: Oh, okay.
[09:09.490 --> 09:11.770]  [SPEAKER_11]: It seems to be a lot lower than that $0.40.
[09:12.010 --> 09:15.750]  [SPEAKER_11]: Unless that's a $0.40 flat rate, you can stay on for as long as you want, but I really doubt that.
[09:15.850 --> 09:16.710]  [SPEAKER_11]: I doubt that, too.
[09:16.830 --> 09:21.850]  [SPEAKER_11]: So what I would do if I were you, would call Cable and Wireless and ask them more about that.
[09:21.930 --> 09:22.330]  [SPEAKER_11]: Are you...
[09:22.330 --> 09:22.870]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[09:23.030 --> 09:24.710]  [SPEAKER_05]: Are you familiar with this company, Connect?
[09:25.410 --> 09:25.750]  [SPEAKER_11]: No.
[09:26.370 --> 09:27.550]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, because they're a new company.
[09:27.550 --> 09:35.350]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, and, um, the same question with regard to, um, long-distance services, because, um, um, actually...
[09:35.350 --> 09:45.790]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, long-distance services are far too complex to say that one company is better than another because, depending on your needs, it's possible AT&T might be better for you, it's possible some other company might be better for you.
[09:46.250 --> 09:47.790]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's just something I'd have to study.
[09:48.050 --> 09:52.110]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, shop around and find out, you know, what your needs are and take it from there.
[09:52.330 --> 09:52.610]  [SPEAKER_05]: Right.
[09:52.890 --> 09:53.810]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, thanks so much.
[09:53.930 --> 09:54.590]  [SPEAKER_11]: I really appreciate it.
[09:54.630 --> 09:55.190]  [SPEAKER_11]: Thanks for calling.
[09:56.750 --> 10:00.230]  [SPEAKER_11]: We'll take, uh, one more call right now and then we'll take some more calls a little later.
[10:00.510 --> 10:01.090]  [SPEAKER_11]: Good evening.
[10:01.250 --> 10:01.850]  [SPEAKER_11]: You're on Off the Hook.
[10:02.190 --> 10:03.250]  [SPEAKER_02]: Hi, uh, good evening.
[10:03.690 --> 10:12.790]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, can you tell me, uh, what's a good way to, you know, break into the telephone business, you know, you know, and, like, what kind of training you need and stuff like that?
[10:12.950 --> 10:13.670]  [SPEAKER_11]: All right, you want to...
[10:13.670 --> 10:16.470]  [SPEAKER_11]: Wait, do you want to break into the telephone business or the telephone computer?
[10:16.830 --> 10:17.930]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, telephone computer.
[10:18.070 --> 10:18.830]  [SPEAKER_02]: Like, I'm already...
[10:18.830 --> 10:19.930]  [SPEAKER_11]: You gotta make up your mind here.
[10:19.930 --> 10:28.150]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm already, like, a computer hacker, you know, and, like, I'm trying to find a job and stuff and it's like, I'm, I'm, I'm searching, searching, searching, searching.
[10:28.410 --> 10:34.650]  [SPEAKER_02]: Is there, is there any training that you need to, to get a job at AT&T or, you know?
[10:34.830 --> 10:37.170]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, you probably won't get a job by breaking into their computer.
[10:37.350 --> 10:42.150]  [SPEAKER_11]: You'll certainly get their attention and you might even get their respect, but you probably also get an indictment.
[10:42.150 --> 10:48.370]  [SPEAKER_11]: And, um, Phiber, do you know anything about, uh, the training for people that, that want to, uh, actually work for the phone company?
[10:48.530 --> 11:04.410]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, uh, you could, uh, sort of, uh, be, you could be a conformist and you can go to college and take telecommunications courses or, uh, you can learn it from the school of, uh, hard knocks and, uh, do, uh, you know, you can learn on your own.
[11:04.550 --> 11:14.150]  [SPEAKER_10]: There's plenty of books that you can read, uh, that you can pick up in any bookstore at all about telecommunications engineering and, uh, you could certainly do, do well just doing that.
[11:14.410 --> 11:15.450]  [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, can I ask you another question?
[11:15.570 --> 11:19.170]  [SPEAKER_02]: Like, how, how would somebody go about breaking into a PBX?
[11:19.290 --> 11:21.090]  [SPEAKER_02]: Cause that, I mean, how do you do that?
[11:21.090 --> 11:24.950]  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, when I call a PBX, it's just, I'm calling with my voice.
[11:25.050 --> 11:26.130]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not calling with a computer.
[11:26.250 --> 11:28.390]  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, what do you mean break into a PBX?
[11:28.470 --> 11:29.690]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, you have touchstones, do you not?
[11:29.890 --> 11:30.450]  [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, okay.
[11:30.550 --> 11:39.390]  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I have touchstones, but like, I mean, usually when you get the receptionist at a big company, uh, you don't want to hear touchstones, you just want to hear your voice.
[11:39.570 --> 11:42.790]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, that's true, but the receptionist is not there 24 hours a day, is she?
[11:43.430 --> 11:44.270]  [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I see.
[11:44.470 --> 11:51.850]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, so if you call these companies late at night, oftentimes something automated will pick up and every touchstone does something different and that's all I'm going to say.
[11:52.310 --> 11:52.670]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay?
[11:52.670 --> 11:52.770]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay.
[11:53.110 --> 11:53.790]  [SPEAKER_11]: Thanks for calling.
[11:54.550 --> 11:59.810]  [SPEAKER_11]: That's, uh, a small sampling of, uh, of the many phone calls that we get here at WBAI.
[11:59.890 --> 12:04.410]  [SPEAKER_11]: And we'll be taking a little bit more, a few more phone calls a little later on from, uh, people very much like you.
[12:04.410 --> 12:18.310]  [SPEAKER_11]: But now we need people very much like you to call us on the other line and pledge some support to the radio station, to WBAI, to Off the Hook, so that we can continue, um, bringing you programs where we answer questions, bring you bits of information.
[12:18.890 --> 12:20.410]  [SPEAKER_11]: And, uh, we want to reciprocate.
[12:20.470 --> 12:22.370]  [SPEAKER_11]: We want to, uh, give you something in return.
[12:22.370 --> 12:25.030]  [SPEAKER_11]: This is the last night we're going to be, uh, raising funds.
[12:25.190 --> 12:27.370]  [SPEAKER_11]: Last night that our particular program will be raising funds.
[12:27.910 --> 12:28.630]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, Claude is here.
[12:28.870 --> 12:30.550]  [SPEAKER_11]: Claude, you know more about this than I do.
[12:30.610 --> 12:32.770]  [SPEAKER_11]: How many more nights of fundraising do we have at the station?
[12:33.490 --> 12:34.270]  [SPEAKER_09]: Uh, till Friday.
[12:34.490 --> 12:40.310]  [SPEAKER_09]: There's a, there are a couple of, um, uh, send-ups of the wonderful Bush administration coming up.
[12:40.550 --> 12:40.810]  [SPEAKER_09]: Uh-huh.
[12:40.930 --> 12:41.710]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, that's always fun.
[12:42.050 --> 12:42.350]  [SPEAKER_11]: Mm-hmm.
[12:42.470 --> 12:43.050]  [SPEAKER_11]: So, uh...
[12:43.050 --> 12:43.910]  [SPEAKER_11]: Take a man when he's down.
[12:43.970 --> 12:48.490]  [SPEAKER_11]: We have tomorrow and Friday, and I'm sure we'll have some, some more quality programs as well.
[12:48.870 --> 12:56.190]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, but as far as, um, as far as tonight, tonight, this is the last, uh, off the hook that we'll be, uh, trying to raise funds.
[12:56.330 --> 13:01.390]  [SPEAKER_11]: So we do want to come off looking good so that, uh, we don't have to, uh, hang our heads at the next staff meeting.
[13:02.110 --> 13:06.710]  [SPEAKER_11]: Give us a call, 212-279-3400 for a $70 pledge.
[13:06.990 --> 13:07.870]  [SPEAKER_11]: Now, listen carefully.
[13:07.950 --> 13:17.210]  [SPEAKER_11]: For a $70 pledge, you can get both a subscription to 2600 Magazine, The Hacker Quarterly, and a 2600 T-shirt.
[13:18.350 --> 13:22.570]  [SPEAKER_11]: And I was just down in Austin, Texas, um, for the Steve Jackson trial.
[13:22.690 --> 13:24.890]  [SPEAKER_11]: Now, a little bit of, uh, poetic irony here.
[13:25.010 --> 13:34.370]  [SPEAKER_11]: I went down there for the Steve Jackson trial last week, and, uh, well, it turned out to be postponed for a week, so the trial began just as my plane was lifting off to come back home.
[13:35.110 --> 13:36.710]  [SPEAKER_11]: Regardless, though, I don't feel cheated.
[13:36.830 --> 13:47.270]  [SPEAKER_11]: I feel like I learned quite a bit about, uh, about, uh, another part of the country, and I also found out that Austin is a really cool city with lots of interesting people and a spirit that just cannot be crushed.
[13:47.430 --> 13:49.890]  [SPEAKER_11]: Very much like, uh, like the hacker spirit, in a way.
[13:49.930 --> 13:52.250]  [SPEAKER_11]: And there's a lot of hackers in, in Austin, Texas.
[13:52.530 --> 13:53.550]  [SPEAKER_11]: You don't expect it.
[13:53.630 --> 14:04.790]  [SPEAKER_11]: You know, you're driving along in the desert, you know, cactus and lizards and things like that, and small towns with, uh, you know, one traffic light and a, and a, a diner maybe, and, and, and a gas station or two.
[14:05.310 --> 14:07.290]  [SPEAKER_11]: And, and, you know, not very many people either.
[14:07.470 --> 14:09.730]  [SPEAKER_11]: You go through these towns, like there's a town called Ozona.
[14:10.210 --> 14:11.270]  [SPEAKER_11]: Now, I'm not kidding about this.
[14:11.290 --> 14:13.490]  [SPEAKER_11]: There's a town called Ozona in Texas.
[14:13.490 --> 14:19.630]  [SPEAKER_11]: I don't know why they named it that, if that's where all the ozone is, but there, there are buildings, but there are no people.
[14:19.850 --> 14:24.770]  [SPEAKER_11]: You drive down the street and you see things, you know, pizza places that don't have any people in them and, and they're not open.
[14:25.310 --> 14:26.610]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, it's ghost town.
[14:26.770 --> 14:28.190]  [SPEAKER_11]: And there's ghost towns all over the place.
[14:28.270 --> 14:33.850]  [SPEAKER_11]: But then you keep driving down that desert road and you get into Austin and it's a college town.
[14:34.010 --> 14:41.750]  [SPEAKER_11]: You have a lot of people in bookstores, record stores, uh, alternative ways of life and long hair and all that kind of neat stuff.
[14:42.810 --> 14:45.090]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's just, uh, very inspiring.
[14:45.290 --> 14:47.050]  [SPEAKER_11]: You know, being here in New York, we get accustomed to things.
[14:47.130 --> 14:48.090]  [SPEAKER_11]: We get hardened to things.
[14:48.270 --> 14:54.330]  [SPEAKER_11]: We, uh, tend to, to sort of become cynical and think that the rest of the world isn't listening.
[14:54.450 --> 14:57.430]  [SPEAKER_11]: But in a place like Austin, you can just express yourself.
[14:57.570 --> 15:00.910]  [SPEAKER_11]: You can feel a lot more at ease with the world.
[15:00.910 --> 15:04.190]  [SPEAKER_11]: So I think we all deserve to, uh, go to a place like that.
[15:04.690 --> 15:05.870]  [SPEAKER_11]: But there's a lot they don't have.
[15:05.950 --> 15:07.870]  [SPEAKER_11]: They don't have a radio station like WBAI.
[15:08.130 --> 15:10.490]  [SPEAKER_11]: You know, they have a public radio station.
[15:10.610 --> 15:11.890]  [SPEAKER_11]: And of course, it sounds like all the others.
[15:12.370 --> 15:16.910]  [SPEAKER_11]: You know, they play, I don't know if it's classical music or jazz 24 hours a day, but it's one of them.
[15:16.910 --> 15:21.710]  [SPEAKER_11]: And they have all the politically correct programs on at the politically correct times.
[15:22.270 --> 15:27.310]  [SPEAKER_11]: But they don't have alternative thoughts being spewed out 24 hours a day.
[15:27.470 --> 15:32.550]  [SPEAKER_11]: They don't have programs like Off the Hook and programs like all the other programs you hear in WBAI.
[15:32.650 --> 15:34.430]  [SPEAKER_11]: And we're the exception.
[15:34.950 --> 15:36.070]  [SPEAKER_11]: New York is the exception.
[15:36.790 --> 15:39.770]  [SPEAKER_11]: Most of the country does not have this kind of material.
[15:39.770 --> 15:43.170]  [SPEAKER_11]: And the reason for that is that somebody got there first.
[15:43.590 --> 15:52.310]  [SPEAKER_11]: Somebody took up the available radio dials, radio frequencies, before troublemakers like the Pacifica people came into town.
[15:53.610 --> 15:57.050]  [SPEAKER_11]: Or maybe there just aren't enough people to support a radio station like this.
[15:57.210 --> 15:58.630]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, this is New York City.
[15:59.130 --> 16:00.270]  [SPEAKER_11]: We reach New Jersey.
[16:00.490 --> 16:01.290]  [SPEAKER_11]: We reach Connecticut.
[16:01.310 --> 16:02.430]  [SPEAKER_11]: We reach Long Island.
[16:03.030 --> 16:06.010]  [SPEAKER_11]: And we know there are people out there listening to us right now.
[16:06.430 --> 16:08.530]  [SPEAKER_11]: 212-279-3400.
[16:08.710 --> 16:09.330]  [SPEAKER_11]: Give us a call.
[16:09.850 --> 16:10.930]  [SPEAKER_11]: Pledge your support.
[16:11.290 --> 16:13.330]  [SPEAKER_11]: And remember, we do take Visa.
[16:13.530 --> 16:14.690]  [SPEAKER_11]: We do take MasterCard.
[16:15.450 --> 16:19.610]  [SPEAKER_11]: And that will make your life a lot easier if you choose to pay in that particular way.
[16:19.670 --> 16:21.510]  [SPEAKER_11]: And we do take any pledge.
[16:22.210 --> 16:24.370]  [SPEAKER_11]: Any pledge of what you can afford.
[16:25.010 --> 16:27.790]  [SPEAKER_11]: For $70, though, you will get that special offer.
[16:27.870 --> 16:29.690]  [SPEAKER_11]: And this is the last night this is being offered.
[16:30.530 --> 16:36.410]  [SPEAKER_11]: And you will get a subscription to the primary hacker magazine of the world, really.
[16:36.550 --> 16:39.490]  [SPEAKER_11]: And I'll tell you, it's kind of shocking to go into a town.
[16:39.770 --> 16:42.550]  [SPEAKER_11]: Like Austin, where they read more books.
[16:42.670 --> 16:43.610]  [SPEAKER_11]: You know, this is a fact.
[16:43.750 --> 16:46.890]  [SPEAKER_11]: They read more books per person than in New York City.
[16:47.830 --> 16:48.510]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's true.
[16:48.830 --> 16:51.590]  [SPEAKER_11]: More people read there and buy books.
[16:51.750 --> 16:54.090]  [SPEAKER_11]: And they have bookstores everywhere you can possibly look.
[16:54.090 --> 16:55.090]  [SPEAKER_11]: Look, it's a university town.
[16:55.150 --> 16:56.290]  [SPEAKER_11]: I suppose it has something to do with it.
[16:56.490 --> 16:58.970]  [SPEAKER_11]: But it's just incredibly literary.
[16:59.370 --> 17:00.770]  [SPEAKER_11]: And you go into these bookstores.
[17:00.910 --> 17:04.130]  [SPEAKER_11]: And just about all these bookstores have 2,600 in them.
[17:04.230 --> 17:05.930]  [SPEAKER_11]: They have the hacker magazine.
[17:06.130 --> 17:08.830]  [SPEAKER_11]: And people are going crazy trying to read this.
[17:08.830 --> 17:11.890]  [SPEAKER_11]: And now they're even selling t-shirts down there.
[17:12.070 --> 17:13.190]  [SPEAKER_11]: You know, hacker t-shirts.
[17:13.370 --> 17:15.070]  [SPEAKER_11]: So it's becoming a very big thing.
[17:15.090 --> 17:16.730]  [SPEAKER_11]: A very popular thing.
[17:16.890 --> 17:19.450]  [SPEAKER_11]: And something that a lot of people are interested in.
[17:19.770 --> 17:24.410]  [SPEAKER_11]: So it's not like we're offering you something that, you know, is not going anyplace.
[17:24.410 --> 17:25.690]  [SPEAKER_11]: And nobody has heard of it.
[17:25.730 --> 17:26.770]  [SPEAKER_11]: And it's just a big waste of time.
[17:26.770 --> 17:32.610]  [SPEAKER_11]: This is something that a lot of people are, you know, jacking into, so to say.
[17:32.750 --> 17:35.670]  [SPEAKER_11]: They're getting involved.
[17:35.710 --> 17:37.330]  [SPEAKER_11]: And you can get involved in many ways.
[17:37.510 --> 17:38.870]  [SPEAKER_11]: You can help the radio station.
[17:38.890 --> 17:40.550]  [SPEAKER_11]: You can invest in non-commercial radio.
[17:40.550 --> 17:43.190]  [SPEAKER_11]: And you can also learn quite a bit.
[17:43.430 --> 17:48.050]  [SPEAKER_11]: Now, maybe in these last three phone calls we took, you might have learned a little bit of information.
[17:48.190 --> 17:51.030]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, multiply that by a hundred, maybe even a thousand.
[17:51.150 --> 17:54.370]  [SPEAKER_11]: And that's what you'll get just by reading the back of the t-shirt alone.
[17:55.350 --> 17:56.030]  [SPEAKER_16]: It's true.
[17:56.770 --> 18:00.070]  [SPEAKER_11]: In fact, in California, I hear it's illegal to wear our t-shirt.
[18:00.170 --> 18:04.470]  [SPEAKER_11]: So don't go to California because there's bits of information on the t-shirt that might get you into trouble.
[18:04.670 --> 18:05.730]  [SPEAKER_11]: Like, there's a schematic.
[18:06.350 --> 18:08.590]  [SPEAKER_11]: And you're not supposed to have schematics like that.
[18:08.770 --> 18:12.790]  [SPEAKER_11]: But, regardless, the magazine will get you all kinds of interesting bits of information.
[18:13.010 --> 18:15.890]  [SPEAKER_11]: And something that you just won't get anyplace else.
[18:16.010 --> 18:19.990]  [SPEAKER_11]: Just like you don't get things here, you do get things here that you don't get in other places.
[18:20.090 --> 18:21.510]  [SPEAKER_11]: All right, we have two callers on the line.
[18:21.690 --> 18:24.730]  [SPEAKER_11]: I'd like to make that for 212-279-3400, Claude.
[18:24.730 --> 18:28.150]  [SPEAKER_08]: And you don't get things here that you do get everywhere else.
[18:28.770 --> 18:29.710]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's something of value.
[18:29.710 --> 18:30.410]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, like commercials.
[18:30.710 --> 18:31.310]  [SPEAKER_11]: Like commercials.
[18:31.390 --> 18:32.390]  [SPEAKER_11]: You don't get commercials here.
[18:32.510 --> 18:33.250]  [SPEAKER_11]: You notice that.
[18:33.430 --> 18:33.970]  [SPEAKER_11]: Oh, yeah.
[18:34.090 --> 18:36.750]  [SPEAKER_11]: I hear the chorus out there.
[18:36.770 --> 18:39.010]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, but you get these dumb pledge drives all the time.
[18:39.250 --> 18:39.630]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[18:39.810 --> 18:40.030]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay.
[18:40.030 --> 18:41.370]  [SPEAKER_11]: I used to be part of that chorus, too.
[18:41.410 --> 18:42.990]  [SPEAKER_11]: Whenever I saw Channel 13 doing this.
[18:42.990 --> 18:45.690]  [SPEAKER_11]: But it's necessary.
[18:45.830 --> 18:48.530]  [SPEAKER_11]: Because if we don't have the pledge drives, we have to have commercials.
[18:48.830 --> 18:53.810]  [SPEAKER_11]: And imagine what WBAI would sound like if we had an Exxon spot coming up in the next minute.
[18:53.870 --> 18:55.750]  [SPEAKER_11]: Or something from New York Telephone, you know?
[18:55.910 --> 19:02.350]  [SPEAKER_09]: I think even PBS now has these, what they call enhanced endorsements or enhanced subscribers.
[19:02.790 --> 19:05.050]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, they're trying to get the best of both worlds.
[19:05.290 --> 19:07.710]  [SPEAKER_11]: And that's something that we will never do here at WBAI.
[19:07.710 --> 19:13.750]  [SPEAKER_11]: We won't go for that kind of, you know, half sincerity, is what I call it.
[19:13.830 --> 19:18.310]  [SPEAKER_11]: Where you say you're non-commercial, but you try to get as much from the corporations as possible.
[19:18.390 --> 19:19.950]  [SPEAKER_11]: We don't want anything from the corporations.
[19:20.250 --> 19:21.270]  [SPEAKER_11]: They do their thing.
[19:21.390 --> 19:22.570]  [SPEAKER_11]: We do our thing, you know?
[19:22.710 --> 19:23.510]  [SPEAKER_11]: Stay in your world.
[19:23.690 --> 19:25.170]  [SPEAKER_11]: Don't cross the line, okay?
[19:25.770 --> 19:27.430]  [SPEAKER_11]: That's the way we work here.
[19:27.490 --> 19:28.950]  [SPEAKER_11]: And that's why we need your help.
[19:28.950 --> 19:31.550]  [SPEAKER_11]: Because you're our only form of support.
[19:31.970 --> 19:33.190]  [SPEAKER_09]: And I would say this.
[19:33.190 --> 19:44.930]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's that you have a listenership, and Emmanuel has a listenership, and you who are listening to the radio are probably tuned in because you're a regular listener, most likely.
[19:45.010 --> 19:46.590]  [SPEAKER_09]: Or maybe you just discovered this by accident.
[19:46.890 --> 19:53.670]  [SPEAKER_09]: But I would ask you this, that if you know what the prisoner's dilemma is, act on that knowledge.
[19:53.910 --> 19:54.470]  [SPEAKER_09]: Call up.
[19:58.310 --> 20:01.990]  [SPEAKER_09]: Don't play the treasonous role in the prisoner's dilemma.
[20:01.990 --> 20:04.390]  [SPEAKER_11]: Oh, that's very poetic there.
[20:04.910 --> 20:05.490]  [SPEAKER_11]: Thank you.
[20:06.590 --> 20:07.890]  [SPEAKER_11]: 212-279-3400.
[20:08.050 --> 20:09.290]  [SPEAKER_11]: We have two calls on the line.
[20:09.830 --> 20:12.410]  [SPEAKER_11]: And I'd like to make that go up to...
[20:12.410 --> 20:18.410]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, you know, I heard both Miss You and the computer people getting all seven lines lit.
[20:18.970 --> 20:22.150]  [SPEAKER_11]: And, you know, I think here at Off the Hook, we're capable of doing that.
[20:22.730 --> 20:25.070]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's been a while since we did that.
[20:25.170 --> 20:28.110]  [SPEAKER_11]: I think two weeks ago, we almost did it, but we didn't quite do it.
[20:28.110 --> 20:30.850]  [SPEAKER_11]: So, if you're out there, you're one person.
[20:31.050 --> 20:32.170]  [SPEAKER_11]: You're one person of many.
[20:33.190 --> 20:35.270]  [SPEAKER_11]: And it's kind of like this year.
[20:35.950 --> 20:38.090]  [SPEAKER_11]: This year is going to be the year of the individual.
[20:38.250 --> 20:41.290]  [SPEAKER_11]: The individual finally standing up and fighting back.
[20:41.290 --> 20:43.430]  [SPEAKER_11]: Saying, I've had enough of what's been going on.
[20:43.550 --> 20:47.110]  [SPEAKER_11]: And now it's time that the rest of the world listen to me.
[20:47.650 --> 20:51.770]  [SPEAKER_11]: And, you know, enough individuals get together and say similar things.
[20:52.110 --> 20:53.510]  [SPEAKER_11]: Things do start to change.
[20:53.650 --> 20:55.010]  [SPEAKER_11]: I mean, look at what's going on in the world.
[20:55.330 --> 20:56.770]  [SPEAKER_11]: You'll see that things are happening.
[20:57.410 --> 20:59.150]  [SPEAKER_11]: There's been a change in leadership.
[20:59.210 --> 21:04.810]  [SPEAKER_11]: And it was really kind of inspiring being in Austin, Texas, while the Clinton coronation was going on.
[21:06.230 --> 21:07.190]  [SPEAKER_11]: I don't mean that disrespectfully.
[21:07.810 --> 21:08.970]  [SPEAKER_11]: I mean, it was a coronation of sorts.
[21:08.970 --> 21:13.230]  [SPEAKER_11]: But it's indications of change.
[21:13.550 --> 21:14.990]  [SPEAKER_11]: You know, something different on the horizon.
[21:15.830 --> 21:19.450]  [SPEAKER_11]: Things, Bush-Reagan policies being dismantled.
[21:19.830 --> 21:21.650]  [SPEAKER_11]: You know, organizations being disbanded.
[21:21.770 --> 21:23.630]  [SPEAKER_11]: It just felt so good to see this happening.
[21:23.870 --> 21:28.690]  [SPEAKER_11]: And, you know, you just felt like, yeah, this is justice at last.
[21:28.690 --> 21:30.490]  [SPEAKER_11]: Now, how long is it going to last?
[21:31.090 --> 21:36.990]  [SPEAKER_11]: Will Clinton continue to turn around on some issues and maybe break some promises?
[21:37.190 --> 21:38.090]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's possible.
[21:38.090 --> 21:41.230]  [SPEAKER_11]: But, if it happens, it's our fault.
[21:41.270 --> 21:42.650]  [SPEAKER_11]: Because we let it happen.
[21:43.110 --> 21:44.170]  [SPEAKER_11]: And that's what happens.
[21:44.290 --> 21:48.590]  [SPEAKER_11]: All it takes for evil things to happen is for good people like us to remain silent.
[21:49.750 --> 21:54.130]  [SPEAKER_11]: Now, calling up and pledging money to WBAI doesn't solve all the problems of the world.
[21:54.270 --> 21:55.290]  [SPEAKER_11]: But it does help.
[21:55.870 --> 21:58.430]  [SPEAKER_11]: It helps to keep a voice speaking.
[21:58.710 --> 22:00.570]  [SPEAKER_11]: And that voice is partially your voice.
[22:01.030 --> 22:03.130]  [SPEAKER_11]: 212-279-3400.
[22:05.750 --> 22:13.130]  [SPEAKER_11]: We spend the money on very important things here like fixing pieces of equipment that break for whatever reason.
[22:13.450 --> 22:14.750]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, that's one over there, in fact.
[22:15.390 --> 22:17.990]  [SPEAKER_11]: All kinds of things constantly go wrong at a radio station.
[22:17.990 --> 22:20.870]  [SPEAKER_11]: And you need to be able to fix them when they do.
[22:21.810 --> 22:23.470]  [SPEAKER_11]: 212-279-3400.
[22:23.590 --> 22:31.510]  [SPEAKER_11]: One thing we do not spend money on is, you know, rich, plush carpeting and air conditioning and secretaries and...
[22:31.510 --> 22:32.310]  [SPEAKER_11]: Too bad, too.
[22:32.750 --> 22:34.690]  [SPEAKER_11]: And personalities on the air, either.
[22:34.990 --> 22:36.530]  [SPEAKER_11]: You know, with their million-dollar salaries.
[22:36.650 --> 22:37.470]  [SPEAKER_11]: We don't have that here.
[22:37.650 --> 22:44.010]  [SPEAKER_11]: What we do have is an outrageous phone bill because we're constantly talking to people on other parts of the world, letting you know what's going on.
[22:44.010 --> 22:46.370]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's a primary source of information for a lot of people.
[22:47.470 --> 22:49.210]  [SPEAKER_11]: 212-279-3400.
[22:49.370 --> 22:50.450]  [SPEAKER_11]: Every penny counts.
[22:51.170 --> 22:53.350]  [SPEAKER_11]: This is our last night doing this here at Off The Hook.
[22:53.670 --> 22:54.610]  [SPEAKER_11]: Please give us a call.
[22:54.730 --> 22:57.010]  [SPEAKER_11]: 212-279-3400.
[22:57.270 --> 23:00.170]  [SPEAKER_11]: I sure hope that number up there is not the accurate number, but...
[23:00.790 --> 23:03.790]  [SPEAKER_11]: If it is, it means that absolutely nobody has pledged.
[23:03.930 --> 23:05.110]  [SPEAKER_11]: And you can change that.
[23:06.150 --> 23:07.730]  [SPEAKER_11]: 212-279-3400.
[23:07.870 --> 23:09.170]  [SPEAKER_11]: Please give us a call.
[23:09.290 --> 23:13.610]  [SPEAKER_11]: Show your support for this radio program so that we can remain doing what we do.
[23:14.010 --> 23:17.350]  [SPEAKER_11]: And a strong showing tells us that you care.
[23:17.570 --> 23:20.370]  [SPEAKER_11]: A weak showing tells us that you don't.
[23:20.710 --> 23:22.090]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's as simple as that.
[23:22.790 --> 23:32.990]  [SPEAKER_11]: And while I'd like to think that programs are not scheduled as a result of the finances they bring in, it must go through people's minds, you know?
[23:33.110 --> 23:34.390]  [SPEAKER_09]: You must have dark suspicions.
[23:34.570 --> 23:34.790]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[23:34.970 --> 23:43.490]  [SPEAKER_11]: Because if a radio program is on at a certain time and fails to bring in any support whatsoever, it must mean something, right?
[23:44.230 --> 23:45.150]  [SPEAKER_11]: Think about it.
[23:45.470 --> 23:50.370]  [SPEAKER_11]: And let's not bring it to the point where people have to actually question our existence.
[23:50.490 --> 23:53.110]  [SPEAKER_11]: Because that always gets you into trouble when you start questioning existence.
[23:53.950 --> 23:55.790]  [SPEAKER_11]: 212-279-3400.
[23:56.630 --> 23:57.970]  [SPEAKER_11]: Let's get some calls in.
[23:58.690 --> 23:59.250]  [SPEAKER_11]: All right.
[23:59.270 --> 24:03.390]  [SPEAKER_11]: We have something coming up now which may shock you.
[24:03.730 --> 24:04.810]  [SPEAKER_11]: It may shock you.
[24:04.890 --> 24:05.950]  [SPEAKER_11]: It may disgust you.
[24:06.290 --> 24:07.570]  [SPEAKER_11]: It may frighten you.
[24:07.970 --> 24:09.190]  [SPEAKER_11]: You just don't know.
[24:09.810 --> 24:11.290]  [SPEAKER_11]: You just don't know.
[24:12.970 --> 24:13.770]  [SPEAKER_11]: So, stay tuned.
[24:13.890 --> 24:16.890]  [SPEAKER_11]: This is going to be a radio first here on Off the Hook.
[24:16.970 --> 24:17.770]  [SPEAKER_11]: Remember that phone number.
[24:17.950 --> 24:20.630]  [SPEAKER_11]: 212-279-3400.
[24:20.870 --> 24:22.230]  [SPEAKER_11]: Let's get some calls coming in.
[26:45.470 --> 26:58.870]  [SPEAKER_11]: You're listening to Off the Hook, the program about the advancements in high technology, the phone company, computer issues, privacy, your credit report, computer hackers, and whatnot.
[27:00.150 --> 27:05.810]  [SPEAKER_11]: And now what we have for you is a reenactment, if you will.
[27:06.030 --> 27:14.450]  [SPEAKER_11]: A reenactment of a press conference which took place in Lubbock, Texas by the Secret Service.
[27:14.570 --> 27:16.870]  [SPEAKER_11]: Secret Service currently being sued by Steve Jackson.
[27:17.010 --> 27:18.190]  [SPEAKER_11]: We'll get into that in a little while.
[27:18.190 --> 27:22.290]  [SPEAKER_11]: We'll tell you what's happening with that ongoing trial which I flew down to miss.
[27:22.750 --> 27:25.230]  [SPEAKER_11]: And came back here to witness.
[27:25.830 --> 27:27.050]  [SPEAKER_11]: That's going on in Austin.
[27:27.050 --> 27:28.550]  [SPEAKER_11]: But this is something that happened in Lubbock.
[27:28.690 --> 27:29.570]  [SPEAKER_11]: A lot going on in Texas.
[27:29.730 --> 27:30.290]  [SPEAKER_11]: You'd be surprised.
[27:31.110 --> 27:34.170]  [SPEAKER_11]: Now, Tom Adams is a Lubbock sys-op.
[27:34.730 --> 27:36.070]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's got kind of a ring to it, doesn't it?
[27:36.490 --> 27:38.050]  [SPEAKER_11]: Hey, everybody, I'm a Lubbock sys-op.
[27:38.210 --> 27:39.610]  [SPEAKER_11]: But that's what he is.
[27:39.690 --> 27:41.130]  [SPEAKER_11]: He publishes a BBS newsletter.
[27:41.750 --> 27:43.430]  [SPEAKER_11]: And he made up a transcription.
[27:43.710 --> 27:44.410]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, he didn't make it up.
[27:44.490 --> 27:47.350]  [SPEAKER_11]: He composed it out of something that really happened.
[27:47.350 --> 27:56.790]  [SPEAKER_11]: And it came after attending a news conference held by the Secret Service in Lubbock shortly after a raid on alleged software pirates.
[27:57.730 --> 28:12.250]  [SPEAKER_11]: Now, the comment of this person who sent this over to me said, But it's scary when you realize what kind of hazy knowledge the people who are investigating and prosecuting these things actually have of networking.
[28:13.870 --> 28:14.490]  [SPEAKER_11]: All right.
[28:14.590 --> 28:21.030]  [SPEAKER_11]: This is a transcript of a press conference held on December 15th at Secret Service offices in Lubbock, Texas.
[28:21.030 --> 28:33.630]  [SPEAKER_11]: It was held by Agent David Frerichs and is regarding the actions of the Secret Service at Texas Tech University on December 14th, 1992.
[28:34.570 --> 28:39.950]  [SPEAKER_11]: The press conference was transcribed and attended by Tom Adams, who is a sys-op of Captain's Corner.
[28:40.150 --> 28:44.910]  [SPEAKER_11]: You can reach that at area code 806-762-5536.
[28:46.790 --> 28:50.430]  [SPEAKER_11]: The part of Agent Frerichs will be played by Phiber Optic.
[28:50.650 --> 28:54.550]  [SPEAKER_11]: The part of the reporter will be played by yours truly, Emmanuel Goldstein.
[28:54.770 --> 28:58.570]  [SPEAKER_11]: The part of the second reporter will be played by Dave Burstein.
[28:59.670 --> 29:03.090]  [SPEAKER_11]: And Claude, you'll be playing...
[29:03.090 --> 29:04.190]  [SPEAKER_11]: Who will you be playing?
[29:05.130 --> 29:07.430]  [SPEAKER_09]: Simon, a Secret Service agent.
[29:07.550 --> 29:08.850]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, a second Secret Service agent.
[29:09.050 --> 29:09.230]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yes.
[29:11.430 --> 29:12.690]  [SPEAKER_08]: No, no, no, no, no.
[29:12.690 --> 29:13.250]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay, all right.
[29:13.330 --> 29:14.090]  [SPEAKER_11]: Is everybody ready here?
[29:14.090 --> 29:15.290]  [SPEAKER_11]: This is important.
[29:16.030 --> 29:16.890]  [SPEAKER_11]: Radio drama first.
[29:17.730 --> 29:19.450]  [SPEAKER_11]: Let me make sure your microphone is working.
[29:19.790 --> 29:20.350]  [SPEAKER_11]: Phiber Optik.
[29:20.510 --> 29:21.710]  [SPEAKER_10]: Testing, one, two, three.
[29:21.830 --> 29:22.050]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay.
[29:22.090 --> 29:22.330]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's working.
[29:22.870 --> 29:24.590]  [SPEAKER_11]: Begin speaking your part.
[29:24.870 --> 29:25.090]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay.
[29:25.550 --> 29:42.870]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay, yesterday, December 14th, 1992, in cooperation with and working with the Texas Tech University Police Department and Academic Computing Services, the Secret Service and the University Police executed two search warrants for computer fraud and pirated bulletin board computers.
[29:42.870 --> 29:45.290]  [SPEAKER_10]: One was on campus and one was off.
[29:45.530 --> 29:51.890]  [SPEAKER_10]: This person off campus was a former student who had been in the past interviewed and disciplinary...
[29:53.350 --> 29:53.890]  [SPEAKER_10]: Handled?
[29:54.010 --> 29:55.150]  [SPEAKER_10]: Just read it the way it is.
[29:55.290 --> 29:55.370]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay.
[29:55.770 --> 30:00.730]  [SPEAKER_10]: Interviewed and disciplinary handled by the university for doing the same thing.
[30:01.230 --> 30:03.150]  [SPEAKER_10]: No charges have been filed.
[30:03.470 --> 30:06.110]  [SPEAKER_10]: There will be a federal grand jury in January.
[30:06.110 --> 30:09.990]  [SPEAKER_10]: We are anticipating this case will be presented to them at that time.
[30:10.210 --> 30:14.790]  [SPEAKER_10]: The former student was expelled from the university for misusing the VAX system on campus.
[30:15.390 --> 30:21.130]  [SPEAKER_10]: The case essentially was misuse of those VAX accounts or the Academic Computing Services accounts.
[30:21.490 --> 30:32.070]  [SPEAKER_10]: The students are advised when they open these accounts what the rules and regulations are, and Margaret Simon, Director of Texas Tech's News and Publications Department.
[30:32.830 --> 30:34.490]  [SPEAKER_10]: We'll cite those here in a minute.
[30:34.810 --> 30:40.370]  [SPEAKER_10]: We will go ahead and show you the stuff, at least one of them, and they are all three essentially the same.
[30:41.230 --> 30:41.870]  [SPEAKER_10]: All right?
[30:41.870 --> 30:44.610]  [SPEAKER_10]: We have not set all three of them up.
[30:44.830 --> 30:49.190]  [SPEAKER_10]: We've got one up and running so you guys can get an idea of what we're looking at.
[30:49.510 --> 30:56.490]  [SPEAKER_10]: The one on campus was what we consider a pirate bulletin board and a fairly sophisticated one.
[30:57.070 --> 31:05.490]  [SPEAKER_10]: The one off campus was primarily, as were all of them, dealing in proprietary and copyrighted software, games, and programs.
[31:06.090 --> 31:19.830]  [SPEAKER_10]: Prior to this case, this time, the former student admitted to at least $6,000 worth of stuff that he got himself, and that's probably not even close to the dollar amount that we are looking at now.
[31:20.570 --> 31:23.270]  [SPEAKER_10]: We're just now beginning to amass the dollar amount.
[31:23.610 --> 31:26.730]  [SPEAKER_10]: We're anticipating a substantial loss to the manufacturer.
[31:27.010 --> 31:27.550]  [SPEAKER_10]: Questions?
[31:27.850 --> 31:28.650]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, I got a question.
[31:29.630 --> 31:31.190]  [SPEAKER_11]: I'm a reporter here.
[31:31.910 --> 31:33.350]  [SPEAKER_11]: Damn good one if you ask me.
[31:34.450 --> 31:37.250]  [SPEAKER_11]: Exactly what does it mean, a pirate bulletin board?
[31:37.990 --> 31:39.470]  [SPEAKER_11]: I'm not familiar with that.
[31:39.710 --> 31:40.310]  [SPEAKER_11]: All right.
[31:40.530 --> 31:54.510]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, a pirate bulletin board is an electronic bulletin board that passes software, electronic games, computer games, and programs, and pass them back and forth without consent of the manufacturer.
[31:54.990 --> 31:57.510]  [SPEAKER_10]: And sometimes they charge, sometimes they don't.
[31:57.810 --> 31:59.190]  [SPEAKER_10]: Normally there is no charge.
[31:59.210 --> 32:06.130]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's just you give me something and I'll give you something, back and forth, and the people end up with some tremendous computer programs out there without paying for them.
[32:06.730 --> 32:09.230]  [SPEAKER_11]: So they're getting copies of these copyrighted discs.
[32:09.430 --> 32:09.590]  [SPEAKER_11]: Right.
[32:10.590 --> 32:15.030]  [SPEAKER_11]: For a substantially smaller price for the normally pay?
[32:15.190 --> 32:20.990]  [SPEAKER_10]: Or no price at all, just to swap for another equally as good program that someone else may have bought.
[32:20.990 --> 32:23.910]  [SPEAKER_10]: But the problems is they put...
[32:26.310 --> 32:27.670]  [SPEAKER_10]: Is this a secret service?
[32:27.810 --> 32:28.350]  [SPEAKER_10]: Let's not forget it.
[32:28.530 --> 32:37.050]  [SPEAKER_10]: The problems is they put them up on these electronic bulletin boards and anybody that can get into the bulletin board can get them back.
[32:37.050 --> 32:42.370]  [SPEAKER_10]: So you may have, you know, a thousand people getting this particular type program without paying for it.
[32:42.370 --> 32:45.590]  [SPEAKER_11]: Can you explain to us how the investigation got started?
[32:45.870 --> 32:46.330]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah.
[32:46.550 --> 32:47.970]  [SPEAKER_12]: How did you guys get involved?
[32:48.450 --> 32:49.110]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay.
[32:49.330 --> 32:55.430]  [SPEAKER_10]: The initial investigation began back in May when the, what they call CERT, C-E-R-T.
[32:55.690 --> 33:00.630]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's the Computer Emergency Response Team from Carnegie Mellon Institute in Pittsburgh.
[33:00.630 --> 33:10.090]  [SPEAKER_10]: This is an industry-sponsored group of computer experts that monitor numerous computer systems, Internet, and other things throughout the country.
[33:10.350 --> 33:17.650]  [SPEAKER_10]: They notice some very highly unusual activity on Internet, which is one of the computer systems you can access through VAX.
[33:18.150 --> 33:23.290]  [SPEAKER_10]: Internet, they called the university, among others, several universities.
[33:24.090 --> 33:32.130]  [SPEAKER_10]: They called tech, the academic computing services, started checking, and find out this guy was filling up disks.
[33:32.490 --> 33:36.610]  [SPEAKER_10]: Just this one operator was filling up a disk, which is...
[33:37.450 --> 33:41.330]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh-oh, how big would one of those disks be?
[33:41.390 --> 33:42.050]  [SPEAKER_10]: About a million?
[33:42.350 --> 33:43.190]  [SPEAKER_10]: I don't know.
[33:43.390 --> 33:43.890]  [SPEAKER_09]: They're gigabytes.
[33:44.930 --> 33:46.430]  [SPEAKER_10]: Gigabyte disks were full.
[33:46.670 --> 33:52.910]  [SPEAKER_10]: And the other students on campus couldn't do their own research that the VAX, the system, was intended to be used for.
[33:53.290 --> 33:59.270]  [SPEAKER_10]: And so they started checking into who was doing it and whose account code was being used, and it just worked down from there.
[33:59.390 --> 34:02.030]  [SPEAKER_10]: And this former student was using one of the...
[34:02.650 --> 34:07.970]  [SPEAKER_10]: What kind of association did you say it was, or organization, campus organization?
[34:08.310 --> 34:09.170]  [SPEAKER_09]: Campus organization.
[34:09.690 --> 34:14.210]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, they were using one of the campus organizations, and I won't tell you which one.
[34:14.350 --> 34:17.810]  [SPEAKER_10]: One of their subaccounts off one of their VAX account.
[34:18.910 --> 34:23.090]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, Margaret, I have a question.
[34:23.230 --> 34:24.650]  [SPEAKER_11]: Oh, beautiful dress, by the way, Margaret.
[34:25.670 --> 34:27.170]  [SPEAKER_11]: Margaret, I have a question.
[34:27.490 --> 34:28.610]  [SPEAKER_11]: What do you guys...
[34:28.610 --> 34:31.290]  [SPEAKER_11]: Do you have any disciplinary action for these students?
[34:31.570 --> 34:33.790]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, let me step in.
[34:34.050 --> 34:42.490]  [SPEAKER_09]: The Texas Tech University has a policy that all of our computers are periodically and unannounced audited for security.
[34:42.490 --> 35:01.870]  [SPEAKER_09]: And any time there's a violation of the security of Texas Tech's computers, then if a student is involved, he's subject to university disciplinary action, but also he's subject to our turning over and referring any evidence for the case to an enforcement or an investigative agency outside the university,
[35:02.410 --> 35:13.550]  [SPEAKER_09]: such as we have done in this case, and we will proceed with disciplinary action in line with any law enforcement action outside the university that may be...
[35:14.870 --> 35:16.910]  [SPEAKER_11]: I believe you said something unintelligible.
[35:18.550 --> 35:19.950]  [SPEAKER_11]: But I'll ask another question.
[35:20.550 --> 35:22.110]  [SPEAKER_11]: What's it look like for them?
[35:23.870 --> 35:25.130]  [SPEAKER_09]: What's it look like for them?
[35:25.310 --> 35:28.370]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, any students involved could face...
[35:28.370 --> 35:29.290]  [SPEAKER_11]: You went ahead.
[35:29.470 --> 35:30.050]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, you skipped one.
[35:30.170 --> 35:30.650]  [SPEAKER_09]: I skipped one.
[35:30.850 --> 35:31.670]  [SPEAKER_11]: I'll ask again.
[35:31.750 --> 35:32.090]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, I did hear something.
[35:32.290 --> 35:33.350]  [SPEAKER_09]: What's it look like for them?
[35:33.350 --> 35:34.830]  [SPEAKER_09]: What's it look like for them?
[35:34.950 --> 35:35.430]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's a good question.
[35:35.570 --> 35:36.710]  [SPEAKER_09]: I can't say it this time.
[35:36.850 --> 35:39.770]  [SPEAKER_11]: But they could face up to expulsion from the university?
[35:40.030 --> 35:43.250]  [SPEAKER_09]: Any students involved could face expulsion from the university.
[35:44.710 --> 35:45.650]  [SPEAKER_09]: And what else?
[35:45.710 --> 35:46.030]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yes.
[35:46.310 --> 35:48.930]  [SPEAKER_11]: That is, I guess, the worst scenario then, expulsion.
[35:49.150 --> 35:51.370]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, the last kid we took out and shot.
[35:53.130 --> 36:02.390]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, permanent expulsion, expulsion for a certain period of years, and that would be determined by the university disciplinary committee.
[36:03.470 --> 36:04.330]  [SPEAKER_11]: This is a manual.
[36:04.510 --> 36:05.770]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's just stepping me out of character for a moment.
[36:05.990 --> 36:09.530]  [SPEAKER_11]: They actually said that, you know, they actually said the last kid we took out and shot and laughed.
[36:09.710 --> 36:11.930]  [SPEAKER_11]: I would have loved to have had an actual soundbite of that.
[36:13.170 --> 36:14.230]  [SPEAKER_11]: But enough of this.
[36:14.690 --> 36:16.130]  [SPEAKER_11]: This is all a joke, obviously.
[36:16.310 --> 36:18.550]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, yeah, some people might want to say that.
[36:18.570 --> 36:19.270]  [SPEAKER_11]: But it really happened.
[36:19.390 --> 36:20.290]  [SPEAKER_11]: It really did happen.
[36:20.450 --> 36:25.310]  [SPEAKER_11]: Just as we're saying word for word, and sometimes we even skip the words they skip.
[36:25.430 --> 36:28.930]  [SPEAKER_11]: Anyway, back to our little dramatization here.
[36:28.930 --> 36:30.670]  [SPEAKER_11]: Can we have a repeat of the last line?
[36:30.890 --> 36:31.630]  [SPEAKER_09]: Oh, what...
[36:32.350 --> 36:33.290]  [SPEAKER_09]: Any student...
[36:33.290 --> 36:40.370]  [SPEAKER_09]: We're permanent expulsion, expulsion for a certain period of years, and that would be determined by the university disciplinary committee.
[36:40.590 --> 36:42.610]  [SPEAKER_11]: And when will they be deciding on this?
[36:42.710 --> 36:44.990]  [SPEAKER_11]: Will they wait until after the federal indictment?
[36:45.010 --> 36:49.150]  [SPEAKER_09]: It is my understanding, since students are...
[36:49.770 --> 36:54.350]  [SPEAKER_09]: Since the university goes on holiday next week, and students are finishing...
[36:54.350 --> 37:03.950]  [SPEAKER_09]: are finished, as a matter of fact, with this semester, this week, the disciplinary committee would not meet again until the middle of January for the spring semester.
[37:04.130 --> 37:05.650]  [SPEAKER_10]: Why don't you cite the pamphlet?
[37:06.530 --> 37:08.330]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, I wanted to know...
[37:08.330 --> 37:11.370]  [SPEAKER_10]: Because each one of these kids had this pamphlet with them yesterday.
[37:12.390 --> 37:25.350]  [SPEAKER_09]: Every student who takes a computer course at Texas Tech or uses the computers in the library or in any way has access to university computing facilities or property is given this policy statement.
[37:28.170 --> 37:30.730]  [SPEAKER_09]: Laws, policies, and computer use.
[37:31.230 --> 37:45.990]  [SPEAKER_09]: Every instructor of computer science at Texas Tech discusses this booklet with his students so that the students of Texas Tech know that it is a violation of university policy of state and federal law to pirate copyrighted software.
[37:46.430 --> 37:53.710]  [SPEAKER_09]: And they also know that they are responsible for anything that goes in their individual computer account.
[37:54.110 --> 38:02.910]  [SPEAKER_09]: And they read this booklet and in most classes they sign a document saying that they have read this book and understand it.
[38:03.050 --> 38:15.930]  [SPEAKER_09]: So we are attempting to educate students to what federal and state law is and certainly to educate students as to what university policy is.
[38:17.970 --> 38:20.770]  [SPEAKER_09]: as concerns computer fraud which is what we are talking about.
[38:22.410 --> 38:23.670]  [SPEAKER_11]: Sorry, I just stepped out for a moment.
[38:23.970 --> 38:25.710]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, I think a reporter is going to say something.
[38:25.970 --> 38:27.630]  [SPEAKER_11]: Do you like entering freshmen?
[38:27.830 --> 38:31.190]  [SPEAKER_11]: I mean, do you have to take a computer course in order to get one of these pamphlets?
[38:31.370 --> 38:36.530]  [SPEAKER_11]: Or let's say I am an entering freshman and I have a computer I bring into my dorm room.
[38:36.650 --> 38:38.630]  [SPEAKER_11]: Am I not going to get this pamphlet?
[38:38.630 --> 38:40.230]  [SPEAKER_10]: You will if you want a VAX account.
[38:40.330 --> 38:40.810]  [SPEAKER_10]: Oh, I see.
[38:41.290 --> 38:53.910]  [SPEAKER_09]: In the VAX accounts, which are assigned through the APLC, the learning center in the library, if you went in and signed up for an account, you would be given this booklet.
[38:54.090 --> 38:56.270]  [SPEAKER_11]: Now, what is the benefit for this VAX account?
[38:56.410 --> 38:57.610]  [SPEAKER_11]: I am not familiar with that.
[38:57.790 --> 39:16.230]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, if you wanted access to the university's mainframe computer, if you only use your computer in your room to do term papers and to print them out, then you wouldn't be on the VAX system and using university computing property in order to pirate software or to get on to a network.
[39:16.470 --> 39:20.250]  [SPEAKER_11]: So, legally, they can patch into the university system through VAX?
[39:20.770 --> 39:22.290]  [SPEAKER_09]: Through opening an account.
[39:22.530 --> 39:23.930]  [SPEAKER_11]: Oh, okay.
[39:24.430 --> 39:29.490]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, and each of you can get a copy of this, by the way.
[39:30.190 --> 39:35.610]  [SPEAKER_09]: And if you don't have time to stop by the office, I'll fax you a copy.
[39:35.610 --> 39:42.690]  [SPEAKER_11]: So, basically, these kids had an account where using the mainframe to pirate all this software through an electronic bulletin board?
[39:42.910 --> 39:43.190]  [SPEAKER_08]: Mm-hmm.
[39:43.330 --> 39:43.530]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[39:43.830 --> 39:44.230]  [SPEAKER_10]: Mm-hmm.
[39:44.330 --> 39:52.650]  [SPEAKER_10]: This is a major nationwide, worldwide problem from an industry point of view with tremendous losses in funds, tremendous losses of money.
[39:52.950 --> 39:59.110]  [SPEAKER_10]: The VAX account at the university is a way to get into numerous other research accounts or Internet, which is the...
[39:59.110 --> 40:06.470]  [SPEAKER_10]: You get onto Internet, you can talk to anybody else who is on Internet anywhere in the world, which these kids were talking to Belgium and Israel and Australia.
[40:06.770 --> 40:11.710]  [SPEAKER_10]: And they can do that just by this, thus avoiding long-distance phone calls.
[40:11.890 --> 40:17.910]  [SPEAKER_10]: But most of the people on Internet, I mean on the VAX, are there legitimately for research purposes.
[40:18.230 --> 40:22.070]  [SPEAKER_10]: They can go to Mayo and get a file if they're a med student.
[40:22.070 --> 40:25.810]  [SPEAKER_10]: And they also get one of these pamphlets if they get...
[40:25.810 --> 40:30.450]  [SPEAKER_10]: Like the Department of Engineering gives out an account number just for that semester.
[40:30.730 --> 40:33.710]  [SPEAKER_10]: The professor would give it out so you can use the VAX.
[40:33.910 --> 40:43.630]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, they also get one of those pamphlets that explains what the rules are and the instructor spends a good bit of time the first couple of classes going over computer etiquette, computer rules.
[40:43.810 --> 40:47.490]  [SPEAKER_11]: Is this trail gonna lead to any other schools out here in the state of Texas?
[40:47.490 --> 40:52.670]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, there's several others that they were talking to, but we don't have any comment nationwide.
[40:52.770 --> 40:55.330]  [SPEAKER_10]: We don't have any comment on, say, A&M.
[40:55.970 --> 40:58.870]  [SPEAKER_11]: Would this be where the headquarters would have been of the operation?
[40:58.870 --> 40:59.710]  [SPEAKER_10]: No, no, no.
[41:00.030 --> 41:01.750]  [SPEAKER_11]: Just merely one of the outlying areas?
[41:01.830 --> 41:03.150]  [SPEAKER_11]: This is just one of the fingers.
[41:03.470 --> 41:05.110]  [SPEAKER_10]: The ends are one of the fingers out here.
[41:05.610 --> 41:09.650]  [SPEAKER_11]: How long had your investigation been going on until this occurred yesterday?
[41:09.950 --> 41:16.570]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, as we started in May, for us it essentially ended in July when the kid, when we interviewed him the first time.
[41:16.790 --> 41:17.070]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh-huh.
[41:17.070 --> 41:19.470]  [SPEAKER_10]: University police processed him.
[41:19.670 --> 41:22.650]  [SPEAKER_10]: He was expelled from school and we thought that, you know, give the kid a break.
[41:23.010 --> 41:25.890]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, can you comment where the main operation is?
[41:25.970 --> 41:26.430]  [SPEAKER_10]: No, no.
[41:26.610 --> 41:27.710]  [SPEAKER_10]: There's so many of them.
[41:27.890 --> 41:31.610]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's not like there's one computer in the country that's masterminding this thing.
[41:32.330 --> 41:33.730]  [SPEAKER_10]: He could be a mastermind.
[41:33.890 --> 41:35.090]  [SPEAKER_10]: You could be a mastermind.
[41:35.270 --> 41:35.930]  [SPEAKER_10]: He could be.
[41:36.390 --> 41:37.830]  [SPEAKER_10]: He probably is a mastermind.
[41:38.150 --> 41:40.870]  [SPEAKER_10]: I'm sure he's got his own electronic bulletin board.
[41:40.990 --> 41:43.170]  [SPEAKER_10]: You're with the electronic bulletin boards here in town.
[41:43.850 --> 41:44.270]  [SPEAKER_12]: Me?
[41:44.490 --> 41:45.850]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'm with Connect Lubbock.
[41:45.850 --> 41:47.030]  [SPEAKER_12]: I write a monthly newsletter.
[41:47.270 --> 41:48.670]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'm just here to get information.
[41:49.150 --> 41:54.390]  [SPEAKER_10]: If you really have any details on what a bulletin board is, he'd be the guy who really could explain it to you.
[41:54.550 --> 41:55.710]  [SPEAKER_10]: How many people were arrested?
[41:55.810 --> 41:56.790]  [SPEAKER_10]: Nobody was arrested.
[41:56.930 --> 41:57.150]  [SPEAKER_10]: Nobody.
[41:57.730 --> 42:01.770]  [SPEAKER_10]: There were three individuals interviewed, but we did not file any charges.
[42:02.030 --> 42:02.890]  [SPEAKER_10]: Do you expect to?
[42:03.070 --> 42:05.130]  [SPEAKER_10]: There will be a grand jury in January.
[42:05.350 --> 42:06.170]  [SPEAKER_10]: Federal grand jury.
[42:06.450 --> 42:09.490]  [SPEAKER_11]: What type of punishment do they face on the federal level?
[42:09.690 --> 42:13.390]  [SPEAKER_10]: I believe it's a 10-year felony for the computer fraud.
[42:13.610 --> 42:16.090]  [SPEAKER_10]: There's a copyright violation, infringements.
[42:16.310 --> 42:20.790]  [SPEAKER_10]: There's several numerous violations involved here, but essentially a 10-year felony.
[42:21.010 --> 42:22.010]  [SPEAKER_11]: Is that per offense?
[42:22.190 --> 42:22.850]  [SPEAKER_10]: Per offense.
[42:23.230 --> 42:25.490]  [SPEAKER_10]: Would each piece of software be considered an offense?
[42:25.490 --> 42:27.890]  [SPEAKER_10]: Probably not, but that's a U.S.
[42:27.990 --> 42:28.790]  [SPEAKER_10]: attorney decision.
[42:29.270 --> 42:35.510]  [SPEAKER_10]: When we go into the next room, you'll see a hell of a lot of stuff, and it's kind of small, so why don't we just go in one at a time?
[42:36.290 --> 42:40.210]  [SPEAKER_11]: And that is how it went about in mid-December.
[42:40.830 --> 42:43.050]  [SPEAKER_11]: An actual press conference with the Secret Service.
[42:43.050 --> 42:47.330]  [SPEAKER_11]: Of course, it wasn't nearly as dramatic as the way we presented it here.
[42:48.470 --> 42:49.990]  [SPEAKER_11]: They probably got a lot more words wrong.
[42:51.750 --> 42:54.090]  [SPEAKER_11]: But we want to thank everybody for reading those parts.
[42:55.190 --> 43:00.130]  [SPEAKER_11]: Phiber, what kind of comments do you have on what you have witnessed here on this?
[43:00.270 --> 43:02.270]  [SPEAKER_11]: How many things do you think they got wrong?
[43:02.570 --> 43:03.310]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, uh...
[43:03.310 --> 43:05.010]  [SPEAKER_11]: Maybe I should ask how many things they got right.
[43:05.630 --> 43:08.610]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, if I had a highlighter pen, I'd make every page yellow.
[43:09.890 --> 43:13.790]  [SPEAKER_11]: I'd make every page black, actually, but I really couldn't do that.
[43:13.910 --> 43:15.230]  [SPEAKER_12]: I thought we had black on our side.
[43:15.730 --> 43:16.730]  [SPEAKER_11]: Black flag was ours.
[43:16.930 --> 43:17.590]  [SPEAKER_11]: It would be nice.
[43:17.590 --> 43:23.150]  [SPEAKER_11]: But the thing is, you have these Secret Service agents coming into college campuses now, right?
[43:23.630 --> 43:26.170]  [SPEAKER_11]: And what is it that they're actually talking about?
[43:26.370 --> 43:28.210]  [SPEAKER_11]: They're talking about people copying programs?
[43:28.450 --> 43:30.630]  [SPEAKER_11]: And talking about 10 years in jail?
[43:30.650 --> 43:50.170]  [SPEAKER_10]: The way I view this case is that not long ago, the Software Publishers Association, SPA, was able to pass a law that says that someone in possession of, I believe it was 10 or more copyrighted pieces of software was subjected to be charged with a felony.
[43:50.630 --> 43:59.290]  [SPEAKER_10]: And I believe that this case in particular, in Lubbock, might just be a proving grounds to try out this new law.
[44:00.270 --> 44:01.010]  [SPEAKER_11]: I see.
[44:02.190 --> 44:07.590]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, it's the kind of thing that could happen in any part of the country at any particular time.
[44:08.870 --> 44:16.670]  [SPEAKER_11]: And, I don't know, do you think it's any justification whatsoever for Secret Service agents to be bursting into college dormitories?
[44:17.230 --> 44:22.110]  [SPEAKER_11]: I mean, does this really seem like the kind of quote-unquote crime that...
[44:22.110 --> 44:23.830]  [SPEAKER_12]: The Cold War is over.
[44:23.950 --> 44:27.010]  [SPEAKER_12]: They've got to find something to do with all the military and police.
[44:27.130 --> 44:30.410]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, but the Secret Service, this isn't in the NSA or the CIA or something like that.
[44:30.510 --> 44:35.550]  [SPEAKER_11]: This is, you know, the people are supposed to be protecting the President and the Treasury Department and all that kind of thing.
[44:36.290 --> 44:37.090]  [SPEAKER_11]: College campuses?
[44:37.610 --> 44:42.450]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, well, he did say $6,000 worth of software, so I guess that's...
[44:42.450 --> 44:44.510]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, but that's a very subjective term.
[44:44.610 --> 44:45.330]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, obviously.
[44:45.510 --> 44:47.550]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's about what I usually carry in my pocket.
[44:47.790 --> 44:47.990]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[44:48.890 --> 44:51.830]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's hard to really get that.
[44:51.970 --> 44:55.950]  [SPEAKER_11]: We have somebody on the phone with a special message for us.
[44:56.310 --> 45:01.710]  [SPEAKER_11]: And also, I should point out we've got Mr. French from Texas.
[45:01.710 --> 45:02.590]  [SPEAKER_11]: Are you there, Mr. French?
[45:02.830 --> 45:03.890]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, I am.
[45:04.010 --> 45:10.590]  [SPEAKER_11]: Now, he's been on the program a few times, and each time he's on the program, I mention that this is somebody that I've met on the...
[45:10.590 --> 45:13.770]  [SPEAKER_11]: by hacking a voicemail system many, many years ago.
[45:13.910 --> 45:15.050]  [SPEAKER_11]: We just kind of collided.
[45:15.210 --> 45:16.750]  [SPEAKER_11]: Two hackers sort of collided together.
[45:17.230 --> 45:20.390]  [SPEAKER_11]: And this is someone I've known for a long time, but I've never actually met.
[45:20.450 --> 45:21.970]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, that, my friends, has changed.
[45:22.050 --> 45:30.410]  [SPEAKER_11]: I actually went down to Texas and met you face-to-face for the first time ever, and it certainly was an exciting experience and something that...
[45:30.410 --> 45:35.810]  [SPEAKER_11]: I guess it happens a lot in the radio world because, you know, you hear people's voices before you actually see their faces sometimes.
[45:36.930 --> 45:41.670]  [SPEAKER_11]: But I think this is probably the longest time I've gone without meeting somebody that I've known for so long.
[45:41.850 --> 45:44.090]  [SPEAKER_11]: It was good to actually see you.
[45:44.310 --> 45:45.310]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yes, I won't miss it.
[45:46.550 --> 45:53.910]  [SPEAKER_11]: Now, you've been on the program a couple of times and, you know, we're trying to raise money here tonight for the radio station.
[45:54.050 --> 45:56.210]  [SPEAKER_11]: So far, it looks like we've raised $295.
[45:56.610 --> 45:57.410]  [SPEAKER_11]: You know, that's good.
[45:57.610 --> 46:05.710]  [SPEAKER_11]: And it came from people, you know, putting pledges together and adding things up and things like that, but it could be a lot more.
[46:05.890 --> 46:07.050]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's supposed to be a lot more.
[46:07.170 --> 46:08.410]  [SPEAKER_11]: We're kind of behind schedule here.
[46:08.650 --> 46:11.890]  [SPEAKER_11]: Our number is 212-279-3400.
[46:13.390 --> 46:19.690]  [SPEAKER_11]: Mr. French, do you have any stations like WBAI down in your part of Texas?
[46:19.950 --> 46:23.710]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, we have KERAFM 90.1.
[46:23.950 --> 46:26.050]  [SPEAKER_03]: And they're running a pledge drive also.
[46:26.370 --> 46:27.370]  [SPEAKER_11]: At the same time, huh?
[46:27.530 --> 46:27.770]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yes.
[46:27.930 --> 46:34.410]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, I doubt very many people will be torn between the two stations, but what kind of things do they do on that station?
[46:35.350 --> 46:37.030]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, it's very similar to what you're doing.
[46:37.130 --> 46:37.930]  [SPEAKER_03]: They play on an awful lot.
[46:44.750 --> 46:45.550]  [SPEAKER_11]: More tips.
[46:45.770 --> 46:46.930]  [SPEAKER_11]: We'll be taking phone calls later.
[46:47.710 --> 46:50.550]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's just the kind of thing that we do here at Off the Hook week after week.
[46:50.670 --> 46:52.570]  [SPEAKER_11]: And we've come a long way since we started.
[46:52.810 --> 47:05.490]  [SPEAKER_11]: Before there was a radio show like this in New York City, a lot of people didn't know a lot of things about how their phones worked, about how their privacy was basically on a billboard in various places and anybody could get access to it.
[47:05.670 --> 47:07.570]  [SPEAKER_11]: People are learning how to protect themselves.
[47:07.770 --> 47:09.810]  [SPEAKER_11]: People are learning how not to get ripped off.
[47:09.930 --> 47:14.150]  [SPEAKER_11]: And people are learning that hackers are people just like them, people who are very curious.
[47:14.150 --> 47:15.950]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, there can be evil hackers.
[47:16.230 --> 47:22.090]  [SPEAKER_11]: But to be honest, I really haven't seen very many of them because I think most people are just caught up in the learning experience.
[47:22.250 --> 47:26.750]  [SPEAKER_11]: And when you're constantly learning things, you don't really have time for ulterior motives.
[47:26.990 --> 47:31.330]  [SPEAKER_11]: I mean, maybe later you'll have time for that if you learn evil things, perhaps.
[47:31.490 --> 47:33.990]  [SPEAKER_11]: But I really don't think it's going to turn out that way.
[47:33.990 --> 47:36.370]  [SPEAKER_11]: 212-279-3400.
[47:36.490 --> 47:37.470]  [SPEAKER_11]: $70 pledge.
[47:37.670 --> 47:44.810]  [SPEAKER_11]: You'll get the T-shirt, 2600 T-shirt, and you'll get the magazine, a full year of 2600 magazine.
[47:45.030 --> 47:47.270]  [SPEAKER_11]: Mr. French, maybe you might want to say a word or two about the magazine.
[47:47.610 --> 47:51.490]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, it's just full of all kinds of nice little tidbits of information.
[47:52.070 --> 48:00.550]  [SPEAKER_03]: Things, everything from a simple combination lock, shall we say, to an extreme toll switch type thing.
[48:00.550 --> 48:01.630]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's just full of...
[48:01.630 --> 48:07.990]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's packed full of facts about the way systems work, shall we say, and security systems and how they work.
[48:08.750 --> 48:10.950]  [SPEAKER_11]: And it's not something to be...
[48:10.950 --> 48:14.510]  [SPEAKER_11]: Some people have brought this up, and I just want to make sure that they understand this.
[48:14.530 --> 48:18.290]  [SPEAKER_11]: Some people are concerned that if they get the magazine, they'll be on some kind of a list.
[48:19.130 --> 48:29.530]  [SPEAKER_11]: Let me tell you, so many people, so many organizations, corporations, phone companies, everybody wants to know what people are learning, what people are thinking, what people are talking about.
[48:30.830 --> 48:37.110]  [SPEAKER_11]: So, it's not an elite list by any means of computer criminals or anything like that.
[48:37.750 --> 48:44.570]  [SPEAKER_11]: Plus, add to the fact that the list is never, ever, ever, never seen by anybody outside of the 2600 office.
[48:45.150 --> 48:46.470]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's just not given to anybody.
[48:46.590 --> 48:50.850]  [SPEAKER_11]: The only people it's given to, of course, is the mailman when we mail things out, but that's it.
[48:51.670 --> 48:53.490]  [SPEAKER_11]: And nobody else has access to it.
[48:53.570 --> 49:00.510]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's kept in password-protected, scrambled form, and people would give their lives before giving over the list.
[49:00.630 --> 49:03.130]  [SPEAKER_11]: That's just the way it works, and hackers will like that.
[49:03.710 --> 49:06.830]  [SPEAKER_11]: But, the magazine itself has been coming out since 1984.
[49:07.570 --> 49:16.770]  [SPEAKER_11]: It started out as, I guess, kind of an underground thing, but rapidly evolved into something a lot more important, something that's, that has to do with the First Amendment.
[49:17.190 --> 49:22.390]  [SPEAKER_11]: You know, speaking out, saying things that some people don't want you to say, but you've got every right to say it nonetheless.
[49:23.090 --> 49:24.910]  [SPEAKER_11]: We don't print things that are illegal.
[49:25.270 --> 49:30.970]  [SPEAKER_11]: We don't, you know, print credit card numbers or passwords or things that will get people into trouble.
[49:31.130 --> 49:35.190]  [SPEAKER_11]: What we do print are ideas, methods, things that will allow you to learn.
[49:35.430 --> 49:37.330]  [SPEAKER_11]: 212-279-3400.
[49:37.530 --> 49:40.750]  [SPEAKER_11]: Join the learning experience because you'll be doing it in so many different ways.
[49:40.830 --> 49:45.050]  [SPEAKER_11]: You'll be getting the magazine, you'll be getting a shirt, which is, you know, if you don't want the shirt, you can give it to somebody.
[49:45.050 --> 49:46.310]  [SPEAKER_11]: You can give the magazine to somebody.
[49:46.490 --> 49:49.470]  [SPEAKER_11]: I'm sure everybody out there knows someone who's into this.
[49:49.630 --> 49:52.390]  [SPEAKER_11]: And obviously, you're into this so you wouldn't be listening right now.
[49:52.490 --> 49:54.270]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, actually, not entirely true.
[49:54.350 --> 50:08.370]  [SPEAKER_11]: You might be tuning in right now to hear the news, which is not on tonight because we have a two-hour show that goes on until midnight because we really need to raise the funds for WBAR so we can continue doing this kind of thing, so we can continue bringing you the news among many other programs.
[50:08.850 --> 50:13.950]  [SPEAKER_11]: And this learning experience stretches over so many different spectrums.
[50:14.430 --> 50:23.570]  [SPEAKER_11]: You'll be reading the magazine, you'll be learning about what is going on, the new advances in technology, the new systems that people are discovering.
[50:23.870 --> 50:26.770]  [SPEAKER_11]: And you'll be asking a lot more interesting questions yourself.
[50:26.770 --> 50:29.810]  [SPEAKER_11]: You'll find yourself evolving with the times.
[50:30.490 --> 50:39.850]  [SPEAKER_11]: And at the same time, you'll be sharing in the learning experience of WBAI, which is a medium that allows something like Off the Hook to exist.
[50:40.110 --> 50:42.390]  [SPEAKER_03]: Where else are you going to find this type of programming?
[50:42.750 --> 50:45.550]  [SPEAKER_11]: Not very many places in New York City, that's for sure.
[50:45.550 --> 50:57.970]  [SPEAKER_11]: And, you know, it's a good point because New York City has a fair share of alternative stations of various kinds, but I have to say WBAI is probably the most alternative of them.
[50:58.150 --> 51:04.150]  [SPEAKER_11]: I really can't think of any other station that has as much time devoted to alternative ideas as WBAI.
[51:04.190 --> 51:08.350]  [SPEAKER_11]: And that goes not just for this city, but for most of the country, if not all of the country.
[51:08.830 --> 51:11.610]  [SPEAKER_11]: And there just simply aren't stations like this in other places.
[51:12.310 --> 51:24.150]  [SPEAKER_11]: Now, WBAI is the only station like it in New York City, the only station that a program like this could possibly air on because if we were to be on a commercial station, we'd be kicked off within a week because of the nasty things we say about various companies.
[51:24.830 --> 51:31.590]  [SPEAKER_11]: And if you know anything about commercial radio, you know those various companies that wind up pledging, if you will.
[51:31.670 --> 51:42.470]  [SPEAKER_11]: They pledge their money in return for your slavery where you play their particular commercial spots and you listen to them and they say, you know, I don't think that Emmanuel Goldstein is quite kosher.
[51:42.470 --> 51:47.950]  [SPEAKER_11]: I don't think he's, you know, he's saying things that are in the interest of corporate America.
[51:48.270 --> 51:56.110]  [SPEAKER_11]: You know, I mean, telling people how to build a blue box, telling people how to defeat a PBX system, how to make a free phone call.
[51:56.290 --> 52:02.510]  [SPEAKER_11]: We don't tell people these bits of information just so they can, you know, get free phone calls or anything like that.
[52:02.590 --> 52:04.370]  [SPEAKER_11]: We tell people how the system works.
[52:04.650 --> 52:09.410]  [SPEAKER_11]: And this is something that is public information, yet it's being kept from you.
[52:09.610 --> 52:11.770]  [SPEAKER_11]: They are not explaining how their system works.
[52:11.830 --> 52:13.870]  [SPEAKER_11]: If you ask them questions, they refuse to tell you.
[52:14.270 --> 52:16.030]  [SPEAKER_11]: We have the right to know these things.
[52:16.270 --> 52:20.550]  [SPEAKER_11]: And there are people out there in the hacker world that know these things and they want to share the information.
[52:20.750 --> 52:27.950]  [SPEAKER_11]: And that's what we're all about is sharing information, letting you decide whether or not it's something that is worthwhile to be interested in.
[52:28.190 --> 52:29.970]  [SPEAKER_11]: 212-279-3400.
[52:30.230 --> 52:32.610]  [SPEAKER_11]: You know, we got five phone calls on the line.
[52:32.770 --> 52:33.890]  [SPEAKER_11]: We might even have a bingo.
[52:34.010 --> 52:34.550]  [SPEAKER_11]: We might even...
[52:34.550 --> 52:40.430]  [SPEAKER_11]: I see a light out, but that might be the light that we never fixed around here because there's one phone light that doesn't work.
[52:41.210 --> 52:46.430]  [SPEAKER_11]: But if you are getting a busy signal, please call in again because every person counts.
[52:46.550 --> 52:47.430]  [SPEAKER_11]: And we really mean that.
[52:47.470 --> 52:52.270]  [SPEAKER_11]: It sounds like, you know, a catchphrase we keep going back upon and saying, oh yeah, every person counts.
[52:52.390 --> 52:57.270]  [SPEAKER_11]: But really, it does because every pledge adds up and that's how we got as far as we got now.
[52:57.410 --> 53:02.630]  [SPEAKER_11]: And not just this pledge drive, but the entire history of WBAI from the early 60s.
[53:03.030 --> 53:04.850]  [SPEAKER_11]: Mr. French, do you know how WBAI started?
[53:05.210 --> 53:06.070]  No, I sure don't.
[53:06.230 --> 53:09.810]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, WBAI used to be, I believe it was a Muzak station.
[53:10.130 --> 53:14.070]  [SPEAKER_11]: And WBAI stood for World Broadcasters of America Incorporated.
[53:14.250 --> 53:15.290]  [SPEAKER_11]: That's really what it stood for.
[53:15.370 --> 53:18.970]  [SPEAKER_11]: A lot of people think it stands for We Beg at Intervals, but no, that's not what it really stands for.
[53:19.230 --> 53:21.590]  [SPEAKER_11]: It stands for World Broadcasters of America Incorporated.
[53:21.630 --> 53:22.890]  [SPEAKER_11]: And I believe I have this story right.
[53:22.890 --> 53:24.770]  [SPEAKER_11]: I'm sure somebody will run in and tell me if I'm wrong.
[53:25.830 --> 53:34.210]  [SPEAKER_11]: One day, the person who owned the radio station, the Muzak station, happened to listen to a Pacifica station out on, I believe, the West Coast.
[53:34.350 --> 53:36.290]  [SPEAKER_11]: Maybe it was KPFA or KPFK.
[53:36.870 --> 53:38.750]  [SPEAKER_11]: And he loved it so much.
[53:38.750 --> 53:40.510]  [SPEAKER_11]: He heard alternative ideas.
[53:41.030 --> 53:50.910]  [SPEAKER_11]: He was so turned on by this that he called up Pacifica and he said, Listen, guys, I've got a 50,000 watt radio station smack in the middle of the FM dial in New York City.
[53:51.110 --> 53:51.850]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's yours.
[53:52.070 --> 53:55.310]  [SPEAKER_11]: All you have to do is promise me you'll never play a commercial.
[53:56.070 --> 54:00.150]  [SPEAKER_11]: And, you know, they must have hung up on him about three or four times before they realized that he was serious.
[54:00.570 --> 54:03.650]  [SPEAKER_11]: That he wasn't some kind of some kind of crank that was calling them.
[54:04.330 --> 54:09.430]  [SPEAKER_03]: No, I don't think you'll ever hear this program is brought to you by a grant from AT&T.
[54:09.810 --> 54:11.870]  [SPEAKER_11]: No, you will never, never hear that.
[54:12.050 --> 54:19.910]  [SPEAKER_11]: A lot of public radio stations, I think most of them now, have underwriting, have corporate sponsorships.
[54:20.170 --> 54:26.150]  [SPEAKER_11]: And I understand why they're doing it because it's very hard to get by just on listener support.
[54:26.310 --> 54:29.030]  [SPEAKER_11]: But here at WBAI, that's what we're trying to do.
[54:29.030 --> 54:31.970]  [SPEAKER_11]: We want to remain independent because look at what's happening.
[54:32.130 --> 54:34.450]  [SPEAKER_11]: And, you know, I respect National Public Radio.
[54:34.650 --> 54:36.090]  [SPEAKER_11]: I respect the things that they're trying to do.
[54:36.230 --> 54:37.830]  [SPEAKER_11]: But take a good look.
[54:38.110 --> 54:45.490]  [SPEAKER_11]: You don't hear much in the way of alternative music or alternative thoughts other than the national programs that are broadcast.
[54:45.950 --> 54:47.730]  [SPEAKER_11]: You don't hear very much.
[54:47.730 --> 54:53.810]  [SPEAKER_11]: You do hear some, but not as much as you usually do on true alternative radio stations.
[54:54.030 --> 54:57.730]  [SPEAKER_11]: What you hear instead are music blocks, things that come over the satellite.
[54:58.410 --> 55:06.030]  [SPEAKER_11]: You know, classical music 24 hours a day or jazz 24 hours a day, which is all fine and good, but it's not alternative radio in my view.
[55:06.210 --> 55:11.070]  [SPEAKER_11]: This is alternative radio and the only way you can keep alternative radio is to keep it in the hands of the people.
[55:12.370 --> 55:14.270]  [SPEAKER_11]: 212-279-3400.
[55:14.430 --> 55:19.850]  [SPEAKER_11]: Keep us in your hands because if you let go of us, where do we go?
[55:20.010 --> 55:27.250]  [SPEAKER_11]: We either get commercials from the corporations or we get sponsorships and underwriting grants and things like that.
[55:27.310 --> 55:30.750]  [SPEAKER_11]: Another little ways of controlling what we put on the air.
[55:31.090 --> 55:35.570]  [SPEAKER_11]: We can put on whatever you want us to put on as long as we stay in your hands.
[55:35.570 --> 55:39.350]  [SPEAKER_03]: This may frighten you people a little bit, but this has happened on more than one occasion.
[55:39.790 --> 55:48.370]  [SPEAKER_03]: If you people don't get high behind it and fork over some cash, you may turn this station on someday and you'll hear something like Dr. Gene Scott in its place.
[55:48.590 --> 55:50.590]  [SPEAKER_11]: Now, you brought up an interesting point.
[55:50.710 --> 55:51.470]  [SPEAKER_11]: Now, you've got...
[55:51.470 --> 55:59.310]  [SPEAKER_11]: Mr. French has an incredible amount of receiving equipment, both satellite and shortwave and all kinds of neat things.
[55:59.430 --> 56:05.050]  [SPEAKER_11]: You told me something that shocked me and my friends, listen carefully, we're not kidding here.
[56:05.050 --> 56:08.610]  [SPEAKER_11]: And if what we're about to tell you can happen, anything can happen.
[56:09.610 --> 56:10.570]  [SPEAKER_11]: Radio Moscow.
[56:10.990 --> 56:12.150]  [SPEAKER_11]: Radio Moscow.
[56:12.450 --> 56:12.910]  [SPEAKER_11]: Remember them?
[56:13.070 --> 56:15.310]  [SPEAKER_11]: The people in the Soviet Union, the evil empire?
[56:15.630 --> 56:19.610]  [SPEAKER_11]: Those people, right now, on Radio Moscow, do you know what they're playing?
[56:19.790 --> 56:23.350]  [SPEAKER_11]: They're playing a preacher from America.
[56:23.350 --> 56:26.030]  [SPEAKER_11]: Dr. Gene Scott has how many hours of radio time?
[56:26.530 --> 56:31.250]  [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, he's on 24 hours a day on one frequency and he's on 10 hours a day on another frequency.
[56:31.510 --> 56:32.530]  [SPEAKER_03]: So, um...
[56:32.530 --> 56:33.310]  [SPEAKER_11]: Radio Moscow.
[56:33.670 --> 56:35.710]  [SPEAKER_11]: Dr. Gene Scott is on Radio Moscow.
[56:35.910 --> 56:42.110]  [SPEAKER_11]: I just can't believe this still, that he's actually broadcasting on a former Soviet propaganda station.
[56:42.390 --> 56:47.350]  [SPEAKER_03]: A couple years ago, they would have said, American imperialist dogs, lay down your weaponry.
[56:47.630 --> 56:51.190]  [SPEAKER_03]: And now it's, Radio Moscow presents Dr. Gene Scott.
[56:51.390 --> 56:53.630]  [SPEAKER_03]: Send him money to help support this ministry.
[56:53.630 --> 56:58.510]  [SPEAKER_11]: So, basically, it's whoever has the money, has the power, has the satellites.
[56:58.990 --> 57:02.290]  [SPEAKER_11]: Those people wind up controlling the entire industry.
[57:02.430 --> 57:03.210]  [SPEAKER_11]: Look at Ted Turner.
[57:03.310 --> 57:04.330]  [SPEAKER_11]: He controls everything.
[57:04.770 --> 57:06.030]  [SPEAKER_11]: He controls everything.
[57:06.030 --> 57:08.230]  [SPEAKER_11]: I found that he owns my town just the other day.
[57:08.370 --> 57:12.530]  [SPEAKER_11]: He owns films, he owns TV stations, he owns TV networks, radios.
[57:13.090 --> 57:14.110]  [SPEAKER_11]: Who knows what else?
[57:14.110 --> 57:15.230]  [SPEAKER_11]: He probably owns the moon.
[57:15.590 --> 57:17.750]  [SPEAKER_11]: And I just don't know where it's going to end.
[57:17.890 --> 57:20.130]  [SPEAKER_11]: The thing is, power is a very scary thing.
[57:20.250 --> 57:21.810]  [SPEAKER_11]: And you've got to balance the power.
[57:21.810 --> 57:22.950]  [SPEAKER_11]: You've got to spread it around.
[57:23.110 --> 57:25.970]  [SPEAKER_11]: You've got to put it in the hands of individual people like us.
[57:26.230 --> 57:35.890]  [SPEAKER_11]: But once you give up that responsibility and say, oh, somebody else will do it, you're giving up more than just, you know, writing a check or paying a Visa or a MasterCard bill.
[57:36.310 --> 57:38.650]  [SPEAKER_11]: You're giving up something a lot more precious than that.
[57:38.710 --> 57:43.030]  [SPEAKER_11]: You're giving up a bit of freedom and you're letting somebody else do something for you.
[57:43.110 --> 57:44.750]  [SPEAKER_11]: Imagine if you gave up your vote as easily.
[57:44.930 --> 57:47.670]  [SPEAKER_11]: Imagine if you said to someone, you know, I'm not going to vote.
[57:47.790 --> 57:50.190]  [SPEAKER_11]: I'll just give my vote to Exxon, okay?
[57:50.190 --> 57:51.490]  [SPEAKER_11]: I'll let them vote for me.
[57:51.490 --> 57:52.170]  [SPEAKER_11]: Would you do that?
[57:52.530 --> 57:56.870]  [SPEAKER_11]: You wouldn't do that because a vote is something that comes from your mind.
[57:57.070 --> 57:58.370]  [SPEAKER_11]: It comes from within.
[57:59.350 --> 58:00.470]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's the same thing here.
[58:00.570 --> 58:01.110]  [SPEAKER_11]: This is a vote.
[58:01.210 --> 58:03.150]  [SPEAKER_11]: Your call is a vote for us.
[58:03.370 --> 58:04.750]  [SPEAKER_11]: And every vote counts.
[58:04.890 --> 58:06.630]  [SPEAKER_11]: 212-279-3400.
[58:06.710 --> 58:10.710]  [SPEAKER_11]: Remember a little while ago and it was only about a half hour ago I said we had $295.
[58:11.030 --> 58:13.090]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, now we have $765.
[58:13.670 --> 58:14.410]  [SPEAKER_11]: All right.
[58:14.610 --> 58:14.910]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[58:15.190 --> 58:19.710]  [SPEAKER_11]: So that happened from the people calling in from individual people like you.
[58:19.810 --> 58:21.070]  [SPEAKER_11]: Our goal is to make $1,000.
[58:22.050 --> 58:22.370]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay?
[58:22.450 --> 58:23.430]  [SPEAKER_11]: We're not that far away.
[58:23.690 --> 58:25.810]  [SPEAKER_11]: 212-279-3400.
[58:25.890 --> 58:26.770]  [SPEAKER_11]: Help us make the goal.
[58:27.050 --> 58:27.890]  [SPEAKER_11]: We take Visa.
[58:28.010 --> 58:28.910]  [SPEAKER_11]: We take American...
[58:28.910 --> 58:29.990]  [SPEAKER_11]: No, we don't take American Express.
[58:30.170 --> 58:30.450]  [SPEAKER_11]: I'm sorry.
[58:30.810 --> 58:31.090]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's all right.
[58:31.550 --> 58:32.310]  [SPEAKER_11]: Write that from the record.
[58:32.550 --> 58:33.330]  [SPEAKER_11]: We take Visa.
[58:33.430 --> 58:34.170]  [SPEAKER_11]: We take MasterCard.
[58:34.210 --> 58:36.690]  [SPEAKER_11]: I don't know why we don't take the others but that's just the way it is.
[58:36.770 --> 58:38.650]  [SPEAKER_11]: I think it's because they charged a lot of money or something.
[58:38.650 --> 58:41.130]  [SPEAKER_11]: But 212-279-3400.
[58:41.270 --> 58:49.710]  [SPEAKER_11]: Visa, MasterCard, and however else you want to pay whether it's by check or you want to run into the studio and hand it to us in person.
[58:49.790 --> 58:50.350]  [SPEAKER_11]: That's fine too.
[58:51.130 --> 58:52.550]  [SPEAKER_11]: 212-279-3400.
[58:52.630 --> 58:53.890]  [SPEAKER_11]: There's two callers on the line.
[58:54.170 --> 58:55.330]  [SPEAKER_11]: Let's bring that up.
[58:55.430 --> 58:56.570]  [SPEAKER_11]: Let's make another bingo.
[58:56.770 --> 59:00.570]  [SPEAKER_11]: So there's a lot of people in frenetic activity down there in the tally room.
[59:01.530 --> 59:03.010]  [SPEAKER_11]: I don't know if we can bring them up.
[59:04.130 --> 59:05.570]  [SPEAKER_11]: We were wired in before.
[59:05.710 --> 59:09.690]  [SPEAKER_11]: We could hear all the chaotic sounds down there but I don't think that's plugged in right now.
[59:10.050 --> 59:12.010]  [SPEAKER_11]: 212-279-3400.
[59:12.270 --> 59:23.830]  [SPEAKER_11]: Let's bring us over the top so that this particular radio station, this particular radio program can thrive and continue because there's no reason why we can't continue forever doing this kind of thing.
[59:24.010 --> 59:25.310]  [SPEAKER_11]: We see a lot of changes.
[59:25.470 --> 59:29.250]  [SPEAKER_11]: We see a Democrat in the White House now for the first time in 12 years.
[59:29.870 --> 59:33.250]  [SPEAKER_11]: we see a new mood coming out over the country.
[59:33.370 --> 59:35.830]  [SPEAKER_11]: And I felt like I was in a really good place for that to be happening.
[59:35.990 --> 59:39.930]  [SPEAKER_11]: I was in Austin, Texas which was a very invigorating town.
[59:39.930 --> 59:44.290]  [SPEAKER_11]: It filled me with all kinds of new ideas and a lot of spirit, a lot of young spirit.
[59:44.570 --> 59:45.850]  [SPEAKER_11]: Not just from young people though.
[59:46.090 --> 59:47.810]  [SPEAKER_11]: You know, it's got that kind of spirit to it.
[59:48.290 --> 59:49.850]  [SPEAKER_11]: Mr. French, you're familiar with Austin, right?
[59:50.170 --> 59:50.970]  [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, certainly.
[59:51.250 --> 59:54.910]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, now, it's an unusual place right there in the middle of Texas.
[59:55.490 --> 59:57.010]  [SPEAKER_11]: I don't really know how it happened.
[59:57.070 --> 59:58.830]  [SPEAKER_11]: I guess it's mostly because of the university there.
[59:59.250 --> 01:00:01.030]  [SPEAKER_11]: But it's kind of like a beacon of light.
[01:00:01.130 --> 01:00:04.810]  [SPEAKER_11]: And I like to think that this radio station is also a beacon of light in another way.
[01:00:05.630 --> 01:00:08.070]  [SPEAKER_11]: But, you know, you've got to keep the beacons going.
[01:00:08.210 --> 01:00:10.750]  [SPEAKER_11]: You've got to keep adding to them and keeping them strong.
[01:00:10.950 --> 01:00:12.450]  [SPEAKER_11]: And that's all we're asking you to do here.
[01:00:12.470 --> 01:00:14.730]  [SPEAKER_11]: We're not getting anything personally out of this.
[01:00:14.730 --> 01:00:17.330]  [SPEAKER_11]: We don't get a commission for bringing in the most money.
[01:00:17.670 --> 01:00:20.890]  [SPEAKER_11]: We just get the satisfaction of knowing that we've done the best we can do.
[01:00:21.410 --> 01:00:36.030]  [SPEAKER_11]: Now, most times, most weeks of the year, we get that satisfaction by bringing you the best programming we can, by telling you things that nobody else can find out, by getting interesting guests and providing you with fascinating tidbits of information.
[01:00:36.470 --> 01:00:39.350]  [SPEAKER_11]: On this particular week, though, we have to do it in a slightly different way.
[01:00:39.350 --> 01:00:44.670]  [SPEAKER_11]: We have to ask for your help, for your support, so that we can maintain the strength and keep going.
[01:00:44.670 --> 01:00:46.550]  [SPEAKER_11]: 212-279-3400.
[01:00:46.690 --> 01:00:54.570]  [SPEAKER_11]: Let's take a quick look at that newspaper article from yesterday's New York Times so we can show you some things that the media is up to.
[01:00:54.790 --> 01:00:59.770]  [SPEAKER_11]: And, Mr. French, you probably haven't heard this because I don't think you get the New York Times out there, do you?
[01:01:00.470 --> 01:01:02.630]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's available here, but I don't personally get it.
[01:01:02.750 --> 01:01:05.850]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, actually, even if you had gotten it, I don't think this made the national edition.
[01:01:06.670 --> 01:01:09.670]  [SPEAKER_11]: This is an article called Going Undercover in the Computer Underworld.
[01:01:09.790 --> 01:01:18.330]  [SPEAKER_11]: Law Enforcement Officers Quietly Tap into the Illegal Activities of Cyberspace, which is the cool way of talking about computer activities.
[01:01:19.390 --> 01:01:23.750]  [SPEAKER_11]: He patrols the back alleys of cyberspace at the edge of the electronic frontier.
[01:01:23.990 --> 01:01:29.530]  [SPEAKER_11]: Traveling on beams of electrons, he is invisible, formless, the ultimate undercover agent.
[01:01:29.890 --> 01:01:33.390]  [SPEAKER_11]: He's Phracker Tracker of the high-tech crime network.
[01:01:33.490 --> 01:01:35.750]  [SPEAKER_11]: But don't look for him in comic books or the video store.
[01:01:35.750 --> 01:01:36.490]  [SPEAKER_11]: He's real.
[01:01:36.750 --> 01:01:46.850]  [SPEAKER_11]: His beat takes in the thousands of computer bulletin boards where anyone with a computer, a modem, and a phone can dial up and exchange information or even start a new bulletin board.
[01:01:47.050 --> 01:01:51.930]  [SPEAKER_11]: Usually, the subject is as innocuous as a computer game program, a recipe, or pet grooming.
[01:01:52.130 --> 01:02:03.110]  [SPEAKER_11]: But increasingly, the authorities say, the bulletin boards have become underground marketplaces for stolen telephone access codes and credit card numbers along with child pornography and other contraband.
[01:02:03.350 --> 01:02:08.770]  [SPEAKER_11]: Now, law enforcement agencies have stepped up counterattacks, including computer-based stings.
[01:02:09.030 --> 01:02:23.850]  [SPEAKER_11]: That's the passion of Phracker Tracker, an organized crime investigator, founder of a network of police computer buffs that now spans 28 states and self-proclaims scourge of hackers who break into computer networks, pheakers who steal telephone services, and phrackers who are a combination of both.
[01:02:27.170 --> 01:02:28.370]  [SPEAKER_11]: They made up all these words.
[01:02:28.550 --> 01:02:30.230]  [SPEAKER_11]: I mean, no one else has ever heard these words before.
[01:02:30.570 --> 01:02:42.230]  [SPEAKER_11]: In his newsletter called FBI, which stands for Find Them, Bust Them, Incarcerate Them, he warned, every move you make, every breath you take, we'll be watching you.
[01:02:43.650 --> 01:02:45.310]  [SPEAKER_11]: That's a slight bit there.
[01:02:45.310 --> 01:02:45.790]  [SPEAKER_11]: Copyright infringement.
[01:02:45.850 --> 01:02:53.590]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, that's copyright infringement, and I understand the police, the real police, the rock band, the police, are going to file some sort of suit there.
[01:02:53.710 --> 01:02:59.930]  [SPEAKER_11]: But regardless, I don't know, Phiber, what do you think of the journalism integrity of the way this article is reading?
[01:03:00.150 --> 01:03:15.550]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, I think it demonstrates the cluelessness that we see all too often in media journalists that just seem to pop out of nowhere, literally fall from the sky, and write these articles about nonsense, pretty much.
[01:03:15.670 --> 01:03:22.970]  [SPEAKER_11]: You're right about that, because the vast majority of reporters I've talked to about this kind of thing always start off by saying, you know, I don't know anything about this subject.
[01:03:23.470 --> 01:03:27.610]  [SPEAKER_11]: Can you teach me everything there is to know so I can write an article that millions of people are going to read?
[01:03:28.190 --> 01:03:37.310]  [SPEAKER_11]: And I usually whimper in the corner at that point, because how in God's name are you going to educate somebody on something so complex in such a short period of time?
[01:03:37.430 --> 01:03:42.110]  [SPEAKER_11]: And usually I have until five o'clock to tell them everything there is to know to write a decent article.
[01:03:42.290 --> 01:03:48.970]  [SPEAKER_11]: And of course, even if they do learn everything, they're going to have to get it by their editor, who, by the way, doesn't know anything about computers.
[01:03:49.710 --> 01:03:51.870]  [SPEAKER_11]: You know, it's a sad cycle there.
[01:03:52.030 --> 01:04:02.870]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, it's funny that they don't seem to have any trouble latching on to the simple-minded illegalities of using calling cards and things of that nature and focusing their story in on that.
[01:04:02.970 --> 01:04:05.050]  [SPEAKER_10]: And that's pretty much the entire slant of the story.
[01:04:05.250 --> 01:04:23.410]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, and if you would read this article, you'd get the impression that computer hackers do nothing but steal credit cards and buy things illegally and just make free phone calls and nothing else, you know, no learning experience, no eagerness to figure out new ways of doing things,
[01:04:23.650 --> 01:04:26.690]  [SPEAKER_11]: no real curiosity, no redeeming qualities whatsoever.
[01:04:27.070 --> 01:04:29.050]  [SPEAKER_11]: I don't know why these articles keep coming out.
[01:04:29.050 --> 01:04:30.030]  [SPEAKER_11]: I really don't.
[01:04:30.150 --> 01:04:33.570]  [SPEAKER_11]: It seems like there would be an end to them at some point, you know.
[01:04:33.710 --> 01:04:37.150]  [SPEAKER_11]: Somebody would say, okay, let's see what's really going on here.
[01:04:37.250 --> 01:04:39.070]  [SPEAKER_11]: But apparently they sell newspapers.
[01:04:39.250 --> 01:04:45.310]  [SPEAKER_11]: Apparently there's a kind of a, I don't know, some sort of a cycle that they just fall into and they can't get out of.
[01:04:45.450 --> 01:04:52.030]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, as long as you have these made-up comic book style characters like our friend Mr. Phracker Tracker, was it?
[01:04:52.150 --> 01:04:52.770]  [SPEAKER_11]: Phracker Tracker, yeah.
[01:04:53.230 --> 01:04:57.150]  [SPEAKER_10]: I guess there'll always be some sort of demand for these type of stories.
[01:04:57.150 --> 01:05:01.490]  [SPEAKER_10]: It sort of fills a niche in society's cynicism.
[01:05:01.930 --> 01:05:15.310]  [SPEAKER_11]: Now, in a very prominent part of the article, I don't know if the picture, it just says, the bulletin boards, the computer bulletin boards, have become underground marketplaces for stolen telephone access codes and credit card numbers as well as child pornography.
[01:05:15.310 --> 01:05:18.610]  [SPEAKER_11]: Now, that particular phrase right there, I'm going to read it again.
[01:05:18.750 --> 01:05:19.310]  [SPEAKER_11]: Listen carefully.
[01:05:19.490 --> 01:05:21.710]  [SPEAKER_11]: And pretend you know nothing about computer bulletin boards.
[01:05:21.950 --> 01:05:29.190]  [SPEAKER_11]: The bulletin boards have become underground marketplaces for stolen telephone access codes and credit card numbers as well as child pornography.
[01:05:29.370 --> 01:05:32.470]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, what is any person going to do upon hearing something like that?
[01:05:32.530 --> 01:05:35.310]  [SPEAKER_11]: They're going to say, well, get rid of the bulletin boards then.
[01:05:35.330 --> 01:05:36.430]  [SPEAKER_11]: They're obviously evil.
[01:05:36.650 --> 01:05:37.670]  [SPEAKER_11]: They're all evil.
[01:05:37.850 --> 01:05:38.830]  [SPEAKER_11]: They must be destroyed.
[01:05:39.410 --> 01:05:42.210]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, that's not what bulletin boards are all about at all.
[01:05:42.210 --> 01:05:46.470]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yes, there might be bulletin boards that have illegal things on them.
[01:05:46.530 --> 01:05:51.690]  [SPEAKER_11]: There might be bulletin boards run by child pornographers or Nazis or Klansmen or anything like that.
[01:05:51.770 --> 01:05:54.530]  [SPEAKER_11]: But that's not what bulletin boards are.
[01:05:54.730 --> 01:05:57.130]  [SPEAKER_11]: Bulletin boards are simply a tool that people use.
[01:05:57.310 --> 01:06:03.370]  [SPEAKER_11]: I mean, you're not going to outlaw computers because bulletin boards use computers or evil people use computers.
[01:06:03.550 --> 01:06:04.890]  [SPEAKER_11]: You're not going to outlaw cars.
[01:06:05.070 --> 01:06:05.770]  [SPEAKER_11]: But guess what?
[01:06:05.950 --> 01:06:07.670]  [SPEAKER_11]: Child pornographers drive cars.
[01:06:07.950 --> 01:06:10.870]  [SPEAKER_11]: People who steal telephone access codes drive cars too.
[01:06:10.870 --> 01:06:15.530]  [SPEAKER_11]: These cars are becoming passenger-carrying posts for these people.
[01:06:15.730 --> 01:06:17.610]  [SPEAKER_10]: I hear many of them wear shoes, too.
[01:06:19.270 --> 01:06:21.570]  [SPEAKER_11]: Shoes, cars, what's going to happen here?
[01:06:21.650 --> 01:06:23.710]  [SPEAKER_11]: I mean, we have to make some sacrifices and get rid of these things.
[01:06:24.610 --> 01:06:29.270]  [SPEAKER_11]: That's what we're... you have to look at this in logic, logically.
[01:06:29.630 --> 01:06:37.210]  [SPEAKER_11]: And a lot of people are not doing that, and the reason they're not doing that is because they haven't taken that first step and found out what the thing is that they're talking about in the first place.
[01:06:37.210 --> 01:06:41.170]  [SPEAKER_11]: They're depending on the newspapers to educate them, and that's always a big mistake.
[01:06:42.870 --> 01:06:45.330]  [SPEAKER_11]: Mr. French, do you have articles like that out in Texas often?
[01:06:45.590 --> 01:06:47.410]  [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, yes, they come out ever so often.
[01:06:47.890 --> 01:06:50.470]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's just extreme paranoia.
[01:06:50.890 --> 01:06:53.030]  [SPEAKER_03]: The media likes to whip it up, too, I'm sure.
[01:06:53.950 --> 01:06:57.870]  [SPEAKER_11]: And, of course, if you ever watch local TV news, that is the worst.
[01:06:59.510 --> 01:07:09.610]  [SPEAKER_11]: You always get 100% slant against individual hacker types because they're the ones that are different, they're the ones that are evil.
[01:07:09.890 --> 01:07:12.610]  [SPEAKER_11]: Now, okay, you don't have to be a hacker to appreciate this.
[01:07:13.250 --> 01:07:20.090]  [SPEAKER_11]: Imagine people of other walks of life, you know, ethnic groups or alternative lifestyles of various sorts.
[01:07:20.470 --> 01:07:22.150]  [SPEAKER_11]: You know what it's like to be oppressed.
[01:07:22.170 --> 01:07:29.810]  [SPEAKER_11]: You know what it's like to have people come down on you and think that you're something that you're not and think you're an evil influence and all that.
[01:07:30.110 --> 01:07:33.350]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's the same ignorance, the same ignorance with a different name.
[01:07:33.850 --> 01:07:38.750]  [SPEAKER_11]: So, if you believe in fighting one, you have to believe in fighting them all.
[01:07:39.310 --> 01:07:41.170]  [SPEAKER_11]: That's as simple as it can possibly get.
[01:07:41.590 --> 01:07:46.470]  [SPEAKER_11]: That's why this radio station is a hotbed of activity for those kind of subjects.
[01:07:46.770 --> 01:07:51.210]  [SPEAKER_11]: That's why we all flock to a place like this, because this is where we can speak freely.
[01:07:51.210 --> 01:07:52.790]  [SPEAKER_11]: This is where we can educate people.
[01:07:52.890 --> 01:07:57.650]  [SPEAKER_11]: This is where we can have feedback, take phone calls, and hear what other people have to say.
[01:07:57.850 --> 01:08:00.710]  [SPEAKER_11]: And that's why it's important to support a place like this.
[01:08:00.710 --> 01:08:12.930]  [SPEAKER_11]: No matter what your background, all you need is the desire to keep the dialogue open, to keep freedom ringing its liberty bells throughout this country, or throughout the world.
[01:08:12.970 --> 01:08:15.850]  [SPEAKER_11]: I don't necessarily think the country is the most important thing.
[01:08:15.850 --> 01:08:22.150]  [SPEAKER_11]: I think the world is something that we need to pay increasing attention to, because we're all global citizens.
[01:08:22.150 --> 01:08:24.330]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's 212-279-3400.
[01:08:24.610 --> 01:08:28.230]  [SPEAKER_11]: We're up to... gosh, you know, I can't tell if that's an 8 or a 9.
[01:08:29.010 --> 01:08:30.630]  [SPEAKER_11]: We're either up to $800 or $900.
[01:08:31.210 --> 01:08:31.530]  [SPEAKER_10]: $950.
[01:08:31.670 --> 01:08:32.470]  [SPEAKER_11]: Oh, I just went up to $50.
[01:08:32.830 --> 01:08:34.110]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's either a 9 or an 8.
[01:08:34.210 --> 01:08:34.590]  [SPEAKER_11]: I'm not sure.
[01:08:34.890 --> 01:08:40.090]  [SPEAKER_11]: If we had more money here, we'd be able to get a digital display where you could tell if it was an 8 or a 9.
[01:08:40.170 --> 01:08:41.070]  [SPEAKER_11]: But that's not important.
[01:08:41.250 --> 01:08:53.010]  [SPEAKER_11]: The important thing is that we get some more phone calls at 212-279-3400, so that this particular radio station can keep going and keep spreading the word of various things.
[01:08:53.790 --> 01:08:55.090]  [SPEAKER_11]: Mr. French, do you have to go?
[01:08:56.330 --> 01:08:58.630]  [SPEAKER_03]: I'll need to go at approximately 11.30.
[01:08:58.910 --> 01:08:59.290]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay.
[01:08:59.510 --> 01:09:02.710]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, just speak up at that point, and we'll take some phone calls at that point, too.
[01:09:03.850 --> 01:09:06.470]  [SPEAKER_11]: Unfortunately, I can't give out the number because the line is full.
[01:09:06.630 --> 01:09:10.650]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's 212-279-34007, but it's ringing.
[01:09:10.710 --> 01:09:13.070]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's been ringing now for the last hour, and you won't be able to get through.
[01:09:13.650 --> 01:09:19.750]  [SPEAKER_11]: But you can console yourself by calling up our pledge line, and we'll be more grateful to you if you do that.
[01:09:19.870 --> 01:09:30.330]  [SPEAKER_11]: In fact, the most amazing sacrifice would be if somebody was calling these bottom three lines here for the last hour, and they hung up to call the pledge line and pledge money instead.
[01:09:31.170 --> 01:09:32.890]  [SPEAKER_11]: You know, that would be the most amazing thing.
[01:09:33.790 --> 01:09:34.750]  [SPEAKER_11]: But it's just a thought.
[01:09:35.130 --> 01:09:36.970]  [SPEAKER_11]: 212-279-3400.
[01:09:37.130 --> 01:09:41.530]  [SPEAKER_11]: Now, Fiverr, you have some updates for us on the Steve Jackson trial.
[01:09:42.690 --> 01:09:46.670]  [SPEAKER_11]: I guess this really should have been done a long time ago, because it's probably the most important news item.
[01:09:47.230 --> 01:09:50.690]  [SPEAKER_11]: But it's something that we need to...
[01:09:51.150 --> 01:09:51.830]  [SPEAKER_11]: Oh, we have names?
[01:09:52.030 --> 01:09:52.290]  [SPEAKER_11]: Great.
[01:09:52.650 --> 01:09:53.110]  [SPEAKER_11]: Thank you.
[01:09:53.770 --> 01:09:55.010]  [SPEAKER_11]: Let's do this first.
[01:09:55.110 --> 01:09:58.230]  [SPEAKER_11]: These are thank yous to people that have called in.
[01:09:58.890 --> 01:10:04.190]  [SPEAKER_11]: I want to thank Matthias from the Bronx for his generous pledge.
[01:10:04.930 --> 01:10:08.710]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, Michael from Shrewsbury, New Jersey?
[01:10:08.990 --> 01:10:09.830]  [SPEAKER_11]: Shrewsbury, New Jersey.
[01:10:10.170 --> 01:10:11.910]  [SPEAKER_11]: Oh, that's a great place.
[01:10:11.950 --> 01:10:13.030]  [SPEAKER_11]: And the 908 area code.
[01:10:13.090 --> 01:10:14.770]  [SPEAKER_11]: Do you remember when there wasn't the 908 area code?
[01:10:15.030 --> 01:10:15.390]  [SPEAKER_11]: Sure do.
[01:10:15.390 --> 01:10:16.770]  [SPEAKER_11]: That's a brand new one.
[01:10:17.510 --> 01:10:18.290]  [SPEAKER_11]: Um, okay.
[01:10:18.830 --> 01:10:20.590]  [SPEAKER_11]: We have, uh...
[01:10:20.590 --> 01:10:22.010]  [SPEAKER_11]: I don't want to read, uh...
[01:10:22.010 --> 01:10:25.890]  [SPEAKER_11]: I don't want to read last names here, because sometimes people don't like their last names, um...
[01:10:25.890 --> 01:10:26.550]  [SPEAKER_11]: read over the air.
[01:10:26.610 --> 01:10:27.690]  [SPEAKER_11]: And this person just gave an initial.
[01:10:27.690 --> 01:10:29.470]  [SPEAKER_11]: So, uh, I want to thank A.
[01:10:30.290 --> 01:10:36.390]  [SPEAKER_11]: A from Queens, uh, for, uh, for his generous, or her generous donation, uh, to the radio station.
[01:10:36.870 --> 01:10:41.210]  [SPEAKER_11]: And, uh, many people like A, uh, keep this radio station going.
[01:10:41.390 --> 01:10:41.990]  [SPEAKER_11]: Thank you very much.
[01:10:42.650 --> 01:10:44.070]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, Chris from Brooklyn.
[01:10:44.510 --> 01:10:45.410]  [SPEAKER_11]: Thank you also.
[01:10:46.290 --> 01:10:48.590]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, Michael from Harrison, New York.
[01:10:49.290 --> 01:10:51.170]  [SPEAKER_11]: Again, thanks for your generous donation.
[01:10:51.690 --> 01:10:52.830]  [SPEAKER_11]: And, uh, Kevin.
[01:10:53.330 --> 01:10:54.410]  [SPEAKER_11]: Kevin, how are you?
[01:10:54.570 --> 01:10:55.830]  [SPEAKER_11]: From, uh, Balford, New Jersey.
[01:10:56.770 --> 01:10:58.110]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's been a while since I heard from you.
[01:10:58.430 --> 01:10:59.630]  [SPEAKER_11]: Kevin, thanks for calling in.
[01:10:59.790 --> 01:11:01.950]  [SPEAKER_11]: And, uh, thanks for your very generous, uh, donation.
[01:11:02.710 --> 01:11:03.830]  [SPEAKER_11]: Please join these people.
[01:11:04.050 --> 01:11:04.570]  [SPEAKER_11]: Help us out.
[01:11:04.690 --> 01:11:06.130]  [SPEAKER_11]: These people have, uh...
[01:11:06.130 --> 01:11:06.990]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's a nine.
[01:11:07.210 --> 01:11:08.270]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay, thank you very much.
[01:11:08.350 --> 01:11:11.410]  [SPEAKER_11]: I'm told that that thing that could have been an eight or a nine is actually a nine.
[01:11:11.510 --> 01:11:14.270]  [SPEAKER_11]: So we've got $950 to our credit.
[01:11:14.430 --> 01:11:16.210]  [SPEAKER_11]: We're only $50 away from breaking a thousand.
[01:11:16.430 --> 01:11:18.950]  [SPEAKER_11]: So, uh, help us get over that goal.
[01:11:20.090 --> 01:11:21.510]  [SPEAKER_11]: 212-279-3400.
[01:11:21.850 --> 01:11:26.450]  [SPEAKER_11]: Join the people that, uh, we just thanked now, because, uh, they're the ones that got us to where we are.
[01:11:26.770 --> 01:11:29.610]  [SPEAKER_11]: And they join the other people that got us to where we are today.
[01:11:30.050 --> 01:11:30.990]  [SPEAKER_11]: And over the years.
[01:11:31.130 --> 01:11:31.710]  [SPEAKER_11]: And all that kind of thing.
[01:11:31.790 --> 01:11:32.870]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's really pretty amazing.
[01:11:33.030 --> 01:11:34.390]  [SPEAKER_11]: Now, to get to Steve Jackson.
[01:11:35.090 --> 01:11:39.590]  [SPEAKER_11]: Steve Jackson, uh, is, uh, a guy I spent some time with in Austin, uh, when I went down there.
[01:11:39.650 --> 01:11:41.470]  [SPEAKER_11]: In fact, I went down there to see his trial.
[01:11:41.590 --> 01:11:42.710]  [SPEAKER_11]: He was suing the Secret Service.
[01:11:43.070 --> 01:11:47.190]  [SPEAKER_11]: A couple of years ago, the Secret Service raided Steve Jackson games.
[01:11:47.450 --> 01:11:49.210]  [SPEAKER_11]: And, uh, it wasn't in the media.
[01:11:49.210 --> 01:11:52.010]  [SPEAKER_11]: It wasn't reported on TV stations or radio programs.
[01:11:52.010 --> 01:11:53.090]  [SPEAKER_11]: It was reported here, though.
[01:11:53.590 --> 01:11:55.190]  [SPEAKER_11]: Definitely was reported on WBAI.
[01:11:55.270 --> 01:11:57.070]  [SPEAKER_11]: A lot of people heard about it through WBAI.
[01:11:57.310 --> 01:11:59.270]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, the Village Voice did something on it.
[01:11:59.630 --> 01:12:02.970]  [SPEAKER_11]: And people found out about it through these particular media outlets.
[01:12:03.110 --> 01:12:06.730]  [SPEAKER_11]: And these media outlets kind of helped each other along, uh, with the story.
[01:12:07.330 --> 01:12:12.550]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, well, it turned out that, uh, what the Secret Service was looking for was never found.
[01:12:12.830 --> 01:12:18.770]  [SPEAKER_11]: And Steve Jackson was nearly put out of business, uh, because of their raid in the spring of 1990.
[01:12:19.330 --> 01:12:24.030]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, he publishes various games, uh, and other things.
[01:12:24.190 --> 01:12:28.790]  [SPEAKER_11]: He's since put out, uh, a couple of games, including one that has to do with the actual raid called Hacker.
[01:12:29.250 --> 01:12:33.290]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, but the serious side of the story was that he was very nearly put out of business.
[01:12:33.290 --> 01:12:45.230]  [SPEAKER_11]: He had, uh, um, one game that was about to be, uh, released, uh, or actually a book, uh, that was, uh, seized, and referred to as a, uh, manual for computer crime.
[01:12:45.230 --> 01:12:47.830]  [SPEAKER_11]: Of course, that was never to be the case.
[01:12:47.870 --> 01:12:48.910]  [SPEAKER_11]: It was all returned.
[01:12:48.910 --> 01:12:50.150]  [SPEAKER_11]: Actually, most of it was returned.
[01:12:50.290 --> 01:12:52.530]  [SPEAKER_11]: Not all of his equipment ever made it back to him.
[01:12:52.690 --> 01:12:55.090]  [SPEAKER_11]: And, uh, a lot of it was damaged in some way.
[01:12:55.230 --> 01:12:58.430]  [SPEAKER_11]: So Steve Jackson has taken the Secret Service to court.
[01:12:58.750 --> 01:13:00.090]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, he is suing them.
[01:13:00.310 --> 01:13:02.310]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's the first time someone has ever done this.
[01:13:02.570 --> 01:13:05.990]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's another example of individuals fighting back for their rights.
[01:13:07.110 --> 01:13:08.690]  [SPEAKER_11]: Hopefully, it's the first of many.
[01:13:09.570 --> 01:13:11.170]  [SPEAKER_11]: The trial started this week.
[01:13:11.310 --> 01:13:12.370]  [SPEAKER_11]: Unfortunately, I missed the trial.
[01:13:12.510 --> 01:13:14.810]  [SPEAKER_11]: I went down there last week because it was supposed to start last week.
[01:13:14.930 --> 01:13:15.950]  [SPEAKER_11]: Then they postponed it a week.
[01:13:16.090 --> 01:13:17.970]  [SPEAKER_11]: And, uh, well, it got started yesterday.
[01:13:18.230 --> 01:13:20.290]  [SPEAKER_11]: Now, Phiber, you've got some, uh, updates on it.
[01:13:20.310 --> 01:13:21.150]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, this just in.
[01:13:21.450 --> 01:13:23.410]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, no, actually, this has been here for about an hour and a half.
[01:13:23.410 --> 01:13:24.490]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, just to make it sound exciting.
[01:13:24.730 --> 01:13:25.890]  [SPEAKER_11]: But this just in...
[01:13:25.890 --> 01:13:27.430]  [SPEAKER_11]: I bet it wasn't on the news tonight.
[01:13:27.770 --> 01:13:29.950]  [SPEAKER_11]: So it's just in for everybody in New York.
[01:13:30.110 --> 01:13:37.970]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, I think it's worth noting, uh, beforehand that, uh, while Steve Jackson is, uh, is a game publisher, I, uh, find that a lot of people that I talk to are confused.
[01:13:37.970 --> 01:13:41.450]  [SPEAKER_10]: He's not a computer game or computer software publisher.
[01:13:41.730 --> 01:13:43.470]  [SPEAKER_10]: He's a role-playing game publisher.
[01:13:43.690 --> 01:13:49.250]  [SPEAKER_11]: I gotta tell you, when I was down there, this is a Steve Jackson quote, he said, and I heard him very clearly, he said, I hate computers.
[01:13:49.470 --> 01:13:56.790]  [SPEAKER_11]: And he meant it, too, because computers are, are, you know, running his office, he has to do desktop publishing and all that, and computers are very temperamental.
[01:13:57.170 --> 01:13:58.970]  [SPEAKER_11]: And he's not really a computer person.
[01:13:58.970 --> 01:14:00.130]  [SPEAKER_11]: He's into games.
[01:14:00.310 --> 01:14:00.930]  [SPEAKER_11]: He's into publishing.
[01:14:01.570 --> 01:14:03.450]  [SPEAKER_11]: And I just thought people should know that.
[01:14:03.610 --> 01:14:07.390]  [SPEAKER_11]: You know, it's, uh, he's not even a hacker, really, in the true sense of the word.
[01:14:07.390 --> 01:14:11.290]  [SPEAKER_11]: I don't consider him to be that kind of a hacker, but he's a hacker in another sense of the word.
[01:14:11.790 --> 01:14:13.450]  [SPEAKER_11]: But, um, yeah, he hates computers.
[01:14:14.410 --> 01:14:16.870]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay, uh, this is the, uh, the latest update.
[01:14:17.530 --> 01:14:26.670]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, uh, it was, uh, posted on the well, the whole earth electronic link, by, uh, an attorney for the Electronic Frontier Foundation by the name of, uh, Sherry Steele.
[01:14:27.570 --> 01:14:30.470]  [SPEAKER_10]: And EFF has been, uh, monitoring this case very closely.
[01:14:31.170 --> 01:14:40.710]  [SPEAKER_10]: Anyways, uh, they said that the, uh, Steve Jackson's, uh, Steve Jackson Games case finally got underway a little after, uh, one in the afternoon.
[01:14:41.350 --> 01:14:51.810]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, uh, there were some, uh, settlement efforts originally, but it turned out that the attorneys for the government couldn't get approval from, uh, from Washington for the terms necessary.
[01:14:52.530 --> 01:15:03.730]  [SPEAKER_10]: And they commend, uh, attorneys Jim George and Pete Kennedy who were working on, uh, Steve Jackson Games' behalf saying that they did a terrific job in, uh, representing the plaintiffs.
[01:15:04.570 --> 01:15:13.750]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, uh, they said that, uh, as far as their methods go, they, uh, they sequestered all witnesses so they couldn't hear each other's stories in attempts to make them match.
[01:15:14.510 --> 01:15:20.790]  [SPEAKER_10]: They, uh, they first called, uh, Tim Foley, Agent Tim Foley of the Secret Service as the first witness.
[01:15:21.730 --> 01:15:25.810]  [SPEAKER_10]: And it says they asked him, uh, lots of questions about his knowledge at the time of the raid.
[01:15:25.950 --> 01:15:35.790]  [SPEAKER_10]: And he testified that he didn't know whether Phrack with the, quote-unquote, evil E911 document had been sent to Steve Jackson Games.
[01:15:36.190 --> 01:15:44.430]  [SPEAKER_10]: He also said that he knew that email was on the menu of the BBS implying that there was email on the system at the time of the seizure.
[01:15:44.790 --> 01:15:49.090]  [SPEAKER_10]: Although he denied actually knowing if there was email on the system.
[01:15:49.370 --> 01:15:56.790]  [SPEAKER_10]: And he denied ever making the statement that GURPS Cyberpunk, the name of the role-playing game, was in fact a handbook for a computer crime.
[01:15:57.630 --> 01:16:02.110]  [SPEAKER_10]: So I guess that's, uh, that's outright, uh, just perjury.
[01:16:02.210 --> 01:16:04.950]  [SPEAKER_11]: Sounds like a lot of confusion on their part there.
[01:16:05.030 --> 01:16:07.290]  [SPEAKER_10]: I think that's a good deal of perjury right there.
[01:16:07.410 --> 01:16:08.310]  [SPEAKER_11]: This is the Secret Service.
[01:16:08.310 --> 01:16:09.970]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, this is Agent Tim Foley.
[01:16:10.130 --> 01:16:10.510]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay.
[01:16:11.170 --> 01:16:18.090]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, uh, he wouldn't, he claims he wouldn't give, uh, Steve Jackson copies of anything from, uh, from his computer that ran the BBS.
[01:16:18.590 --> 01:16:33.030]  [SPEAKER_10]: That just, uh, for those who don't know, Steve Jackson had a BBS for, uh, for people who played as role-playing games to discuss, uh, just, uh, uh, uh, different, different, uh, things about the games themselves and, uh, special interest groups that were to focus around certain games.
[01:16:33.690 --> 01:16:39.550]  [SPEAKER_10]: Anyway, he claims that he wouldn't give him anything from the machine that ran the BBS because he was afraid it might have been booby-trapped.
[01:16:40.750 --> 01:16:46.850]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, uh, he also didn't know that Congress had passed any laws giving special protection during searches to publishers.
[01:16:48.350 --> 01:16:56.270]  [SPEAKER_10]: Then, uh, it says that, uh, they, the next person they called was Larry Kutori, police officer at the University of Texas.
[01:16:57.250 --> 01:17:09.650]  [SPEAKER_10]: And it says that the original affidavit filed by, uh, Agent Tim Foley of the Secret Service to support the search warrant stated that Kutori provided the Secret Service with Lloyd Blankenship's address and place of business.
[01:17:10.010 --> 01:17:16.890]  [SPEAKER_10]: Now, Lloyd, uh, who's an employee of Steve Jackson Games is, uh, the, uh, the main author of the GURP cyberpunk book.
[01:17:18.390 --> 01:17:30.790]  [SPEAKER_10]: Kutori insisted that he didn't remember doing that and agreed with Pete Kennedy, one of, uh, Steve Jackson Games' attorney, as he proved that he couldn't have known anything about Blankenship to pass on.
[01:17:31.050 --> 01:17:33.770]  [SPEAKER_10]: And they say that was a good moment in the, uh, in the questioning.
[01:17:36.330 --> 01:17:40.950]  [SPEAKER_10]: Barbara Golden, also of the Secret Service, in charge of the search on site.
[01:17:41.170 --> 01:17:43.830]  [SPEAKER_10]: Agent Foley was not on site at the time of the search.
[01:17:44.130 --> 01:17:45.310]  [SPEAKER_10]: She was called next.
[01:17:45.770 --> 01:17:49.050]  [SPEAKER_10]: She started out by admitting that she didn't know anything about computers.
[01:17:49.510 --> 01:17:52.630]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's nice to have someone like that, uh, on, on site at a raid, isn't it?
[01:17:52.810 --> 01:17:54.530]  [SPEAKER_11]: She didn't know anything about computers.
[01:17:54.830 --> 01:17:55.330]  [SPEAKER_10]: Nothing about computers.
[01:17:55.550 --> 01:17:56.710]  [SPEAKER_11]: And she's in charge of a computer raid.
[01:17:56.710 --> 01:17:58.370]  [SPEAKER_10]: And she's in charge of the raid, yes.
[01:17:58.510 --> 01:18:04.710]  [SPEAKER_11]: That's like, uh, imagine somebody, uh, you know, raiding an organized crime hotbed not knowing anything about crime.
[01:18:05.470 --> 01:18:07.990]  [SPEAKER_11]: Or, or guns or, or anything like that.
[01:18:08.470 --> 01:18:09.110]  [SPEAKER_10]: I don't know.
[01:18:09.230 --> 01:18:17.070]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, uh, she didn't need to know anything because, uh, incidentally, uh, like most other raids, she had, uh, telephone company people conducting the search under her supervision.
[01:18:17.710 --> 01:18:21.270]  [SPEAKER_10]: So they basically said what was what and she said, uh, yay or nay.
[01:18:21.950 --> 01:18:25.770]  [SPEAKER_10]: She also didn't know there was a special law for publishers regarding searches.
[01:18:27.030 --> 01:18:29.010]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, uh, this is an interesting...
[01:18:29.010 --> 01:18:31.370]  [SPEAKER_11]: Did anybody know there was a law for publishers?
[01:18:31.410 --> 01:18:33.090]  [SPEAKER_11]: I don't think any of the agents knew this.
[01:18:33.410 --> 01:18:38.310]  [SPEAKER_11]: And they, they take the phone company people as, as, uh, you know, these unbiased saints.
[01:18:38.470 --> 01:18:40.990]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, they, they seem to be the ones, uh, calling the shots.
[01:18:41.870 --> 01:18:53.090]  [SPEAKER_11]: Considering they're the ones that, uh, you know, very often are the ones trying to prosecute people for various, uh, infringements of their particular, uh, rights of royalty.
[01:18:53.710 --> 01:18:55.710]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, this doesn't seem right, you know?
[01:18:56.050 --> 01:18:56.990]  [SPEAKER_11]: This doesn't seem right at all.
[01:18:57.010 --> 01:18:57.730]  [SPEAKER_10]: Something's wrong there.
[01:18:58.050 --> 01:19:02.870]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, uh, it's, uh, worth noting she was the one who decided to take the entire BBS.
[01:19:03.210 --> 01:19:07.050]  [SPEAKER_10]: We figured someone had to put their foot down and say, uh, let's, let's just take everything.
[01:19:07.790 --> 01:19:11.390]  [SPEAKER_10]: But, uh, she didn't even check to see what the system contained.
[01:19:11.950 --> 01:19:17.050]  [SPEAKER_10]: Once she completed the inventory of what was taken, she was no longer involved with the case.
[01:19:18.110 --> 01:19:21.750]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, uh, our hero, Steve Jackson, was called next.
[01:19:22.150 --> 01:19:32.010]  [SPEAKER_10]: And he gave a demonstration of the, uh, the BBS as it was returned to him by the Secret Service that the judge seemed to, uh, really enjoy, which is, which is good.
[01:19:32.690 --> 01:19:43.330]  [SPEAKER_10]: He, uh, testified that the Secret Service took three computers, one was completely disassembled and they took the parts, two hard drives and more than 300 floppy disks.
[01:19:44.390 --> 01:19:49.190]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, uh, that, that's where it stood today and, uh, Steve's testimony will continue tomorrow morning.
[01:19:50.890 --> 01:19:52.090]  [SPEAKER_11]: That's, uh, that's something.
[01:19:52.150 --> 01:19:57.770]  [SPEAKER_11]: I wish that was on Court TV because I'd like to see the reaction and the questioning as it, as it takes place.
[01:19:57.770 --> 01:20:01.010]  [SPEAKER_11]: But it does sound like, um, like some good points are being made.
[01:20:01.390 --> 01:20:06.210]  [SPEAKER_11]: And that's, uh, you know, that's really all that matters is that people hear this.
[01:20:06.350 --> 01:20:07.990]  [SPEAKER_11]: I don't know what kind of media coverage there's been.
[01:20:08.130 --> 01:20:09.710]  [SPEAKER_11]: I've seen nil, to be honest.
[01:20:10.170 --> 01:20:17.310]  [SPEAKER_11]: Um, but it seems to me that people are at last beginning to fight back and, uh, and say something.
[01:20:17.470 --> 01:20:18.870]  [SPEAKER_11]: Say, this is what really happened.
[01:20:18.890 --> 01:20:21.650]  [SPEAKER_11]: This is how it went down.
[01:20:23.170 --> 01:20:26.070]  [SPEAKER_11]: We'll, uh, probably have a result of this trial by next week.
[01:20:26.630 --> 01:20:29.350]  [SPEAKER_10]: Hopefully it'll turn out in Mr. Jackson's favor.
[01:20:29.530 --> 01:20:34.670]  [SPEAKER_11]: And if it does, that's a very good indication for, uh, you know, the way things may go.
[01:20:34.810 --> 01:20:37.750]  [SPEAKER_11]: Maybe there won't be any of these, uh, any more of these Secret Service raids.
[01:20:37.870 --> 01:20:53.710]  [SPEAKER_11]: Maybe the Secret Service will be reassigned to other duties that more, you know, that fit them a little bit better than, uh, than chasing after teenage kids and, uh, and publishers and people that are simply expressing themselves in ways they may not agree with,
[01:20:53.730 --> 01:21:00.110]  [SPEAKER_11]: but in ways that are 100% protected and 100% correct as far as legality goes.
[01:21:00.110 --> 01:21:02.970]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, it may be a lot to hope for, but, uh, we, we can still hope.
[01:21:03.150 --> 01:21:18.830]  [SPEAKER_11]: I'm an optimistic kind of person, you know, it's, um, traveling across Texas in the last, uh, couple of weeks, um, I was ready to expect just about anything, you know, I was ready to be, um, attacked and, and, you know, strung up and, and, you know, yelled at and various things,
[01:21:18.950 --> 01:21:20.910]  [SPEAKER_11]: but I'll tell you, there wasn't a single bad incident.
[01:21:21.290 --> 01:21:31.450]  [SPEAKER_11]: I found the people of Texas to be amazing people and, uh, very open and, and, and kind, and I think they kind of represent what most people in the world really are.
[01:21:31.730 --> 01:21:42.010]  [SPEAKER_11]: In, in the vast majority of cases, all the trouble in the world comes from the hatred, the bigotry, the ignorance, the fear of a relatively small group of people.
[01:21:42.230 --> 01:21:50.830]  [SPEAKER_11]: But it spreads, you know, the people that speak the loudest and that, uh, talk the most, they, um, infiltrate the, the minds of others.
[01:21:51.870 --> 01:22:00.730]  [SPEAKER_11]: Other people who ordinarily would be perfectly normal, perfectly friendly, perfectly open to just about, uh, anything you have to say.
[01:22:01.090 --> 01:22:13.270]  [SPEAKER_11]: I mean, you know, wearing tie-dye shirts and, and, you know, t-shirts with all kinds of controversial messages on them because I don't believe really in, uh, in, in changing too much for, uh, for other people.
[01:22:13.630 --> 01:22:19.930]  [SPEAKER_11]: I believe in expressing myself for the person I am and I'm ready for all kinds of things that may happen as a result of that.
[01:22:20.030 --> 01:22:29.610]  [SPEAKER_11]: But in most cases, the vast majority of cases, people are open and really all people want is, uh, a little respect, a little consideration.
[01:22:31.070 --> 01:22:34.990]  [SPEAKER_11]: And if you, uh, give that to them, there really isn't a problem.
[01:22:36.670 --> 01:22:38.390]  [SPEAKER_11]: Not to say that there are no problems.
[01:22:38.450 --> 01:22:39.090]  [SPEAKER_11]: There certainly are.
[01:22:39.450 --> 01:22:51.830]  [SPEAKER_11]: But I think, uh, if we realize that a lot of people can be reached, a lot of people can be changed, a lot of people are open, and you, you come at things with a much more hopeful approach and you might actually change things.
[01:22:52.050 --> 01:22:54.170]  [SPEAKER_11]: You might actually see things change in your lifetime.
[01:22:54.930 --> 01:22:55.950]  [SPEAKER_11]: Something to think about.
[01:22:56.810 --> 01:23:03.410]  [SPEAKER_11]: And you do have the opportunity to change things now, to make things a little bit better for us, by calling us at 212-279-3400.
[01:23:03.550 --> 01:23:05.250]  [SPEAKER_11]: We're into our last half hour.
[01:23:05.410 --> 01:23:07.190]  [SPEAKER_11]: In fact, we only have about 25 minutes left.
[01:23:07.910 --> 01:23:09.690]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, the program is off the hook.
[01:23:09.830 --> 01:23:14.150]  [SPEAKER_11]: We're usually on only from 10 o'clock to 11 o'clock on, um, on Wednesdays.
[01:23:14.710 --> 01:23:20.770]  [SPEAKER_11]: But we're on for a special segment this night because it's fundraising night.
[01:23:21.050 --> 01:23:22.310]  [SPEAKER_11]: Fundraising week, actually.
[01:23:22.470 --> 01:23:23.770]  [SPEAKER_11]: Fundraising last three weeks.
[01:23:23.990 --> 01:23:26.230]  [SPEAKER_11]: But we're doing that because we need to do it.
[01:23:26.770 --> 01:23:32.010]  [SPEAKER_11]: We're not doing it because, uh, we enjoy this, although, excuse me, my voice is giving out.
[01:23:32.490 --> 01:23:40.910]  [SPEAKER_11]: It can be fun talking to people and seeing all the people that come up for, um, for volunteer work because they're making sacrifices of their own to do this.
[01:23:41.030 --> 01:23:45.970]  [SPEAKER_11]: And it's fun for everybody, actually, because the radio station is a fun place to be.
[01:23:46.430 --> 01:23:49.590]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's fun to be able to express yourself and to hear what other people have to say.
[01:23:49.690 --> 01:23:54.290]  [SPEAKER_11]: In fact, let's go back to the phones and, um, take some phone calls in just a moment.
[01:23:54.350 --> 01:24:01.250]  [SPEAKER_11]: But first, let me give out the, um, the, um, phone number for the pledge and the information for people pledging.
[01:24:02.110 --> 01:24:05.350]  [SPEAKER_11]: 212-279-3400 for a $70 pledge.
[01:24:05.690 --> 01:24:06.890]  [SPEAKER_11]: You'll get a full year.
[01:24:06.990 --> 01:24:12.730]  [SPEAKER_11]: And this is in addition to all the WBAI paraphernalia you'll get, which is the folio that tells you all the radio programs that are on.
[01:24:12.850 --> 01:24:13.850]  [SPEAKER_11]: Any pledge will get that.
[01:24:14.410 --> 01:24:32.770]  [SPEAKER_11]: But, uh, for a $70 pledge, you'll get a full year of 2600 magazine, the Hacker Quarterly, as well as a 2600 Hacker T-Shirt, which, um, is made of, uh, good quality shirt material, um, and is white lettering on black background.
[01:24:33.330 --> 01:24:36.330]  [SPEAKER_11]: Got nothing but compliments, rave reviews from all over the world.
[01:24:36.510 --> 01:24:37.790]  [SPEAKER_11]: People are starting to wear this.
[01:24:38.470 --> 01:24:40.550]  [SPEAKER_11]: And, uh, in fact, we've had to order it three different times.
[01:24:40.650 --> 01:24:42.510]  [SPEAKER_11]: You have to have three separate shipments come in.
[01:24:42.610 --> 01:24:44.710]  [SPEAKER_11]: And boy, those shipments are, take up a lot of space.
[01:24:44.850 --> 01:24:45.290]  [SPEAKER_11]: Let me tell you that.
[01:24:46.230 --> 01:24:48.010]  [SPEAKER_11]: 212-279-3400.
[01:24:48.190 --> 01:24:48.850]  [SPEAKER_11]: Give us a call.
[01:24:49.210 --> 01:24:52.730]  [SPEAKER_11]: Take part in this particular offer because at midnight it's not going to be an offer anymore.
[01:24:53.050 --> 01:24:58.350]  [SPEAKER_11]: And we're not doing this again because this is the last week of, uh, of pledge drive activity.
[01:24:58.650 --> 01:25:01.210]  [SPEAKER_11]: 212-279-3400.
[01:25:01.450 --> 01:25:06.190]  [SPEAKER_11]: Join the people that have already called in and help make WBAI strong.
[01:25:06.190 --> 01:25:12.370]  [SPEAKER_11]: Help keep us strong because we are a 50,000 watt radio station in the middle of the FM dial.
[01:25:12.510 --> 01:25:12.990]  [SPEAKER_11]: That's good.
[01:25:13.130 --> 01:25:15.270]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's very good that we're able to reach you.
[01:25:15.450 --> 01:25:20.090]  [SPEAKER_11]: We're able to reach, um, New Jersey, parts of, uh, of upstate New York.
[01:25:20.210 --> 01:25:23.370]  [SPEAKER_11]: Not many parts of upstate New York, but, you know, Westchester and places like that.
[01:25:23.750 --> 01:25:27.710]  [SPEAKER_11]: Connecticut, Long Island, and of course Manhattan and Staten Island and those kind of places.
[01:25:28.770 --> 01:25:43.870]  [SPEAKER_11]: That's good that we can do that, but it's also bad because to have a 50,000 watt radio station and to have an antenna on top of the Empire State Building, you've got a tremendous amount of expenses on top of the expenses for, uh, keeping the station itself going,
[01:25:43.950 --> 01:25:51.230]  [SPEAKER_11]: for keeping the equipment in working order, on top of the, uh, the enormous phone bills we get for calling people all over the world.
[01:25:51.390 --> 01:25:52.730]  [SPEAKER_11]: These aren't personal calls, by the way.
[01:25:52.810 --> 01:26:00.230]  [SPEAKER_11]: These are interviews with, uh, world leaders, with people in the industry of telecommunications and computers.
[01:26:00.710 --> 01:26:04.610]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, whatever program you listen to involves phone work at some point.
[01:26:06.190 --> 01:26:10.290]  [SPEAKER_11]: And the producers of radio programs here do not get paid for their work.
[01:26:10.430 --> 01:26:12.150]  [SPEAKER_11]: That's something very important to point out.
[01:26:12.290 --> 01:26:13.930]  [SPEAKER_11]: They do it out of, uh, dedication.
[01:26:13.930 --> 01:26:17.550]  [SPEAKER_11]: They do it because they want to get alternative views out.
[01:26:17.730 --> 01:26:22.670]  [SPEAKER_11]: They do it because they want to educate people and make radio in New York a little bit better.
[01:26:23.330 --> 01:26:24.470]  [SPEAKER_11]: That's where the money goes.
[01:26:24.750 --> 01:26:32.370]  [SPEAKER_11]: It doesn't go to expense accounts, doesn't go to limousines, doesn't go to carpeting, doesn't go to air conditioning, doesn't go to any of that.
[01:26:32.510 --> 01:26:33.950]  [SPEAKER_11]: And that's what, uh,
[01:26:43.930 --> 01:26:49.070]  [SPEAKER_11]: the only non-commercial radio station that has this philosophy in New York City.
[01:26:49.290 --> 01:26:52.610]  [SPEAKER_11]: We don't accept grants from, uh, from corporations.
[01:26:53.310 --> 01:26:58.050]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, we don't have live simulcast for hours at a time from the satellite.
[01:26:59.070 --> 01:27:04.310]  [SPEAKER_11]: We have local programming, alternative local programming, 24 hours a day.
[01:27:04.470 --> 01:27:11.790]  [SPEAKER_11]: And we, we complement that with, uh, things off satellites and various news sources, but we never take the local angle out of it.
[01:27:11.910 --> 01:27:15.330]  [SPEAKER_11]: There's always somebody in this radio station working, doing something.
[01:27:15.830 --> 01:27:33.910]  [SPEAKER_11]: And if you go to the, um, the more, quote-unquote, successful radio stations, you know, the successful non-commercial radio stations, you find that their success and the amount of money that comes into the station is, uh, directly proportional to the number of,
[01:27:34.630 --> 01:27:37.830]  [SPEAKER_11]: adversely proportional, actually, to the number of people that, that work there.
[01:27:37.870 --> 01:27:40.850]  [SPEAKER_11]: The less people there, the better they seem to do.
[01:27:41.010 --> 01:27:46.790]  [SPEAKER_11]: The less programs they have, the more money comes in from the corporations and endowments and all that kind of thing.
[01:27:46.930 --> 01:27:56.030]  [SPEAKER_11]: As long as they just tune to the satellite and leave it there and don't touch that dial, well, they'll be assured of, uh, of safe funding for the next year.
[01:27:56.710 --> 01:27:59.470]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, we don't really get safe funding here.
[01:27:59.470 --> 01:28:08.350]  [SPEAKER_11]: We rely on our listeners, and I guess that's safe enough for most of us, uh, that work around here, because if we don't please our listeners, we're not doing our job.
[01:28:08.350 --> 01:28:12.670]  [SPEAKER_11]: And obviously there's people out there that want to hear the kinds of things that we, uh, we broadcast.
[01:28:13.970 --> 01:28:15.030]  [SPEAKER_11]: Here's a bit of information.
[01:28:15.950 --> 01:28:19.450]  [SPEAKER_11]: A bit of the kind of information you can only get on, uh, on WBAI.
[01:28:20.270 --> 01:28:31.270]  [SPEAKER_11]: You may have, uh, heard over the past, uh, couple of days how various people in government are getting all these phone calls concerning the lifting of the, of the gay ban in the military.
[01:28:32.690 --> 01:28:42.090]  [SPEAKER_11]: And I think, uh, Colin Powell's office, uh, released a statement saying, well, we got 700 phone calls saying don't lift the ban, and only 23 people saying they wanted to lift the ban.
[01:28:42.570 --> 01:28:43.850]  [SPEAKER_11]: And that's all fine and good.
[01:28:43.970 --> 01:28:46.890]  [SPEAKER_11]: You know, people have, uh, the right to call in and express their opinion.
[01:28:47.070 --> 01:28:51.530]  [SPEAKER_11]: But the one thing you don't get from other media sources is, how?
[01:28:51.530 --> 01:28:53.570]  [SPEAKER_11]: how do I express my opinion?
[01:28:54.970 --> 01:28:56.590]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, we can tell you how.
[01:28:56.970 --> 01:28:57.730]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's very simple.
[01:28:58.150 --> 01:28:58.650]  [SPEAKER_11]: Got a pen?
[01:28:58.910 --> 01:29:00.370]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay, here are some phone numbers.
[01:29:00.890 --> 01:29:01.870]  [SPEAKER_11]: Express your opinion.
[01:29:01.930 --> 01:29:03.610]  [SPEAKER_11]: I'm not telling you how to express your opinion.
[01:29:03.730 --> 01:29:05.150]  [SPEAKER_11]: I'm not telling you what to say.
[01:29:05.330 --> 01:29:06.290]  [SPEAKER_11]: That's up to you.
[01:29:07.050 --> 01:29:08.390]  [SPEAKER_11]: That's always up to you.
[01:29:08.390 --> 01:29:14.950]  [SPEAKER_11]: The White House comment line, area code 202-456-1111.
[01:29:15.390 --> 01:29:19.750]  [SPEAKER_11]: The Senate switchboard, 202-224-3121.
[01:29:20.090 --> 01:29:25.930]  [SPEAKER_11]: The Pentagon, 703-697-5737.
[01:29:26.350 --> 01:29:33.390]  [SPEAKER_11]: Or Colin Powell himself, 703-697-9121.
[01:29:34.050 --> 01:29:36.290]  [SPEAKER_11]: Be interesting to see what they say now.
[01:29:37.370 --> 01:29:39.170]  [SPEAKER_11]: I'll give out those numbers one more time.
[01:29:39.650 --> 01:29:43.250]  [SPEAKER_11]: White House comment line, 202-456-1111.
[01:29:43.630 --> 01:29:47.430]  [SPEAKER_11]: Senate switchboard, 202-224-3121.
[01:29:47.990 --> 01:29:51.310]  [SPEAKER_11]: The Pentagon, 703-697-5737.
[01:29:51.870 --> 01:29:56.390]  [SPEAKER_11]: Colin Powell, 703-697-9121.
[01:29:56.630 --> 01:29:59.950]  [SPEAKER_11]: Just one of the many bits of information that we bring to you.
[01:30:00.070 --> 01:30:08.350]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's not particularly hard to obtain this information, but for most radio stations, most media outlets, it's incredibly hard to give it out.
[01:30:09.110 --> 01:30:11.590]  [SPEAKER_11]: 2-1-2-2-7-9-3-4-100.
[01:30:12.250 --> 01:30:13.150]  [SPEAKER_11]: Help us out.
[01:30:13.990 --> 01:30:15.770]  [SPEAKER_11]: Invest in WBAI.
[01:30:15.770 --> 01:30:24.410]  [SPEAKER_11]: And receive our thanks and also our material goods that we have donated to the radio station here for $70.
[01:30:24.590 --> 01:30:32.970]  [SPEAKER_11]: A subscription to the Hacker Quarterly, 2600 magazine, and a 2600 t-shirt, as well as WBAI things.
[01:30:33.190 --> 01:30:35.330]  [SPEAKER_11]: But any pledge is appreciated.
[01:30:35.330 --> 01:30:39.350]  [SPEAKER_11]: Any pledge will get you the WBAI folio for a full year.
[01:30:39.890 --> 01:30:42.010]  [SPEAKER_11]: 2-1-2-2-7-9-3-4-100.
[01:30:42.010 --> 01:30:50.230]  [SPEAKER_11]: Remember, we do take Visa and MasterCard, so if you can only pay a dollar a month or whatever it is they charge, you can do that.
[01:30:50.290 --> 01:30:51.210]  [SPEAKER_11]: You can work it out with them.
[01:30:52.370 --> 01:30:55.770]  [SPEAKER_11]: All right, let's take a couple of phone calls and see who's out there.
[01:30:57.030 --> 01:30:57.610]  [SPEAKER_11]: Good evening.
[01:30:57.770 --> 01:30:58.470]  [SPEAKER_11]: You're on Off the Hook.
[01:31:00.110 --> 01:31:00.730]  [SPEAKER_11]: Anybody there?
[01:31:01.990 --> 01:31:02.930]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay, let's try this one.
[01:31:03.090 --> 01:31:03.610]  [SPEAKER_11]: Good evening.
[01:31:03.730 --> 01:31:04.250]  [SPEAKER_11]: You're on Off the Hook.
[01:31:04.250 --> 01:31:04.730]  [SPEAKER_04]: Hi.
[01:31:05.050 --> 01:31:05.530]  [SPEAKER_11]: How you doing?
[01:31:05.810 --> 01:31:06.030]  [SPEAKER_04]: Good.
[01:31:06.270 --> 01:31:07.690]  [SPEAKER_04]: I was just down in Texas.
[01:31:07.690 --> 01:31:08.570]  [SPEAKER_04]: I was in Dallas.
[01:31:09.150 --> 01:31:09.350]  [SPEAKER_11]: Really?
[01:31:09.410 --> 01:31:10.090]  [SPEAKER_11]: I was in Dallas, too.
[01:31:10.170 --> 01:31:12.350]  [SPEAKER_11]: Did you go on top of that little round building with the...
[01:31:12.350 --> 01:31:13.910]  [SPEAKER_04]: I saw it, but I didn't go on top of it.
[01:31:13.970 --> 01:31:14.950]  [SPEAKER_04]: Did you ever see the Galleria?
[01:31:16.150 --> 01:31:16.930]  [SPEAKER_11]: What's that, a mall?
[01:31:17.030 --> 01:31:17.210]  [SPEAKER_04]: A mall.
[01:31:17.270 --> 01:31:19.710]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's a big mall with an ice skating rink.
[01:31:20.070 --> 01:31:22.410]  [SPEAKER_11]: I went to a mall in Austin with an ice skating rink.
[01:31:22.490 --> 01:31:29.970]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, what I did was I went to Texas and then I drove through Louisiana and went up to Arkansas and came back to Dallas.
[01:31:30.310 --> 01:31:31.650]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's great to drive around, you know?
[01:31:31.730 --> 01:31:32.530]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, that's what I did.
[01:31:32.690 --> 01:31:33.470]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, driving around America is great.
[01:31:34.250 --> 01:31:35.050]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's interesting in Dallas.
[01:31:35.670 --> 01:31:41.650]  [SPEAKER_04]: There's a TGI Fridays in Dallas that they had this phone where you could call cabs on.
[01:31:41.770 --> 01:31:42.950]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's a regular phone.
[01:31:43.090 --> 01:31:50.370]  [SPEAKER_04]: If you thought Chemical Bank was there with them putting phones in every single bank and we could just walk in and make free phone calls, there's this...
[01:31:50.370 --> 01:31:52.290]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's probably only in this location.
[01:31:52.610 --> 01:31:53.790]  [SPEAKER_04]: You walk in, you can...
[01:31:53.790 --> 01:31:59.030]  [SPEAKER_04]: There's this line where you can make phone calls to cabs and we could just walk and I made long-distance calls on it.
[01:31:59.230 --> 01:32:01.730]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, I don't know if you want to incriminate yourself on the...
[01:32:01.730 --> 01:32:02.190]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, no.
[01:32:02.310 --> 01:32:03.250]  [SPEAKER_04]: I just want to say that.
[01:32:03.950 --> 01:32:07.890]  [SPEAKER_04]: The highlight of my trip was I went to IntelliCall, the cold car company.
[01:32:08.230 --> 01:32:10.130]  [SPEAKER_11]: You went all the way down to Texas just to...
[01:32:10.130 --> 01:32:10.750]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, actually, no.
[01:32:11.090 --> 01:32:12.450]  [SPEAKER_04]: I didn't go only for that.
[01:32:12.770 --> 01:32:15.790]  [SPEAKER_04]: Actually, my sister worked for the airline so she invited me down to see her friend.
[01:32:16.010 --> 01:32:21.090]  [SPEAKER_04]: So, since I was in Dallas, since they're in Dallas, I thought, hey, well, IntelliCall's in Dallas.
[01:32:21.230 --> 01:32:21.930]  [SPEAKER_11]: I didn't know that.
[01:32:22.010 --> 01:32:22.710]  [SPEAKER_11]: I didn't know that.
[01:32:22.770 --> 01:32:26.490]  [SPEAKER_11]: I would have dropped by and given them a piece of my mind.
[01:32:26.490 --> 01:32:29.670]  [SPEAKER_04]: There's a lot of information which I'm going to give to you in the next 2600 meeting.
[01:32:29.970 --> 01:32:30.150]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay.
[01:32:31.610 --> 01:32:33.810]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, let me just give you some of what I have.
[01:32:34.010 --> 01:32:37.490]  [SPEAKER_04]: They said that the four tones that COCOT spread out...
[01:32:37.490 --> 01:32:38.350]  [SPEAKER_11]: Those four tones...
[01:32:38.350 --> 01:32:39.970]  [SPEAKER_11]: When you call up and you hear the four...
[01:32:39.970 --> 01:32:40.590]  [SPEAKER_04]: There's thank you and the four tones.
[01:32:40.690 --> 01:32:41.210]  [SPEAKER_04]: Do you know what that means?
[01:32:41.270 --> 01:32:41.310]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[01:32:41.310 --> 01:32:41.730]  [SPEAKER_11]: What does that mean?
[01:32:42.550 --> 01:32:44.210]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's to signal a computer.
[01:32:44.390 --> 01:32:45.570]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's why they're silver box tones.
[01:32:46.050 --> 01:32:46.590]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's to signal...
[01:32:47.170 --> 01:32:47.910]  [SPEAKER_04]: Whatever it is.
[01:32:48.010 --> 01:32:48.850]  [SPEAKER_04]: To signal a computer.
[01:32:49.030 --> 01:32:52.230]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's saying, thank you, as in thank you, computer, for calling.
[01:32:52.550 --> 01:32:53.250]  [SPEAKER_04]: Do-do-do-do-do.
[01:32:53.410 --> 01:32:55.630]  [SPEAKER_04]: And the computer is supposed to respond to that.
[01:32:55.850 --> 01:32:58.830]  [SPEAKER_04]: The main computer that's trying to call the phone for information or whatever.
[01:32:59.030 --> 01:33:01.770]  [SPEAKER_11]: So, okay, the computer hears those four tones.
[01:33:02.090 --> 01:33:05.010]  [SPEAKER_11]: Now, is this a computer that then uses a carrier tone?
[01:33:05.330 --> 01:33:05.610]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[01:33:06.410 --> 01:33:06.790]  [SPEAKER_11]: Interesting.
[01:33:07.190 --> 01:33:10.830]  [SPEAKER_11]: So, that would explain why hackers are never able to break the code.
[01:33:10.990 --> 01:33:13.330]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, and they say that COs have different tones.
[01:33:13.590 --> 01:33:16.990]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's why sometimes you lose money in some intercepted calls.
[01:33:17.790 --> 01:33:18.950]  [SPEAKER_11]: COs have different tones.
[01:33:19.070 --> 01:33:20.870]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, I'm not going to even listen to that.
[01:33:20.870 --> 01:33:21.590]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, we won't get into that.
[01:33:21.730 --> 01:33:21.890]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[01:33:22.270 --> 01:33:23.110]  [SPEAKER_11]: I don't know what they're trying to say.
[01:33:23.110 --> 01:33:28.750]  [SPEAKER_04]: Do you know that IntelliCalls said that I told them about that scam with the collect calls that they say press one to accept.
[01:33:28.950 --> 01:33:34.170]  [SPEAKER_04]: They said, oh, well, what if you want to call your answering machine?
[01:33:34.210 --> 01:33:38.610]  [SPEAKER_04]: You're going to probably want it to accept collect calls because you want to retrieve your messages.
[01:33:38.870 --> 01:33:42.310]  [SPEAKER_11]: You know, that's a particularly sore point with me because I got my phone bill today.
[01:33:42.630 --> 01:33:43.150]  [SPEAKER_11]: And guess what?
[01:33:43.230 --> 01:33:49.470]  [SPEAKER_11]: There's a whole lot of other phone calls from people calling my answering machine collect from a cocot.
[01:33:49.690 --> 01:33:55.370]  [SPEAKER_11]: And these sleazy cocots, they say, press one to reject this call, otherwise stay on.
[01:33:55.470 --> 01:33:57.470]  [SPEAKER_11]: And of course, my answering machine stays on.
[01:33:57.930 --> 01:34:01.050]  [SPEAKER_11]: I got a couple more third-member calls, but that's not what I'm angry about right now.
[01:34:01.110 --> 01:34:04.790]  [SPEAKER_11]: I'm angry about those because they just do not fix these machines.
[01:34:05.170 --> 01:34:05.710]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, I know.
[01:34:05.830 --> 01:34:11.730]  [SPEAKER_11]: They must make them tons of money from poor unsuspecting people and fax machines and answering machines that accept collect calls.
[01:34:12.010 --> 01:34:12.530]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's criminal.
[01:34:12.810 --> 01:34:20.050]  [SPEAKER_04]: Did you know that the reason why the cocot's coin slot and coin return is on another side is for patent reasons?
[01:34:20.550 --> 01:34:21.230]  [SPEAKER_11]: Is that so?
[01:34:21.550 --> 01:34:21.710]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[01:34:22.050 --> 01:34:23.630]  [SPEAKER_11]: That's an interesting thought.
[01:34:24.110 --> 01:34:30.430]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's, you know, because they don't want to make it look the same because they don't want to, like, sort of patent infringement.
[01:34:30.570 --> 01:34:31.290]  [SPEAKER_11]: But it does look the same.
[01:34:31.370 --> 01:34:32.170]  [SPEAKER_11]: It looks exactly the same.
[01:34:32.190 --> 01:34:34.690]  [SPEAKER_11]: That's the only thing that looks different is the coin return is on the other side.
[01:34:34.770 --> 01:34:37.390]  [SPEAKER_04]: You know what I saw at the airport, this big computer thing?
[01:34:37.550 --> 01:34:54.790]  [SPEAKER_04]: Like, I used my credit card, my Visa card, to make a call, but I used it and it, it adds, it dialed zero the area code and number and then when I heard the bong AT&T, it, it, it went silent and then I heard thank you for using AT&T as if I dialed the credit card number.
[01:34:55.070 --> 01:34:58.030]  [SPEAKER_04]: Is it dialing my Visa card number or what is it dialing?
[01:34:58.030 --> 01:34:59.670]  [SPEAKER_11]: I'd have to, I'd have to play with that.
[01:35:00.270 --> 01:35:01.930]  [SPEAKER_11]: Bring it to the meeting, we'll, we'll play with it.
[01:35:03.090 --> 01:35:06.770]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, bring one to the meeting, it's an AT&T special phone, it's a, Oh.
[01:35:07.570 --> 01:35:09.290]  [SPEAKER_11]: Oh, it's not, this doesn't work from all payphones.
[01:35:09.550 --> 01:35:10.890]  [SPEAKER_04]: No, no, no, it's not a payphone.
[01:35:10.930 --> 01:35:11.450]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, it's not a payphone.
[01:35:11.470 --> 01:35:14.470]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's a special AT&T payphone where you insert your credit card.
[01:35:14.610 --> 01:35:14.850]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh-huh.
[01:35:15.490 --> 01:35:17.090]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay, well, where did you see this?
[01:35:17.250 --> 01:35:17.810]  [SPEAKER_04]: In the airport.
[01:35:18.170 --> 01:35:19.070]  [SPEAKER_11]: Oh, it's only in an airport.
[01:35:19.210 --> 01:35:20.530]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, I saw phones like that.
[01:35:20.830 --> 01:35:23.670]  [SPEAKER_11]: I saw phones like that, but I didn't, I didn't have time to play with them.
[01:35:23.710 --> 01:35:24.490]  [SPEAKER_11]: I wish I could have.
[01:35:28.030 --> 01:35:28.290]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh-huh.
[01:35:28.410 --> 01:35:32.410]  [SPEAKER_11]: I did use a phone on an airplane, though, as I was flying in the airplane with a credit card.
[01:35:32.450 --> 01:35:32.790]  [SPEAKER_04]: I do US Air.
[01:35:32.850 --> 01:35:33.930]  [SPEAKER_04]: They don't have phones on the plane.
[01:35:34.070 --> 01:35:35.090]  [SPEAKER_04]: I wish they did.
[01:35:35.250 --> 01:35:37.490]  [SPEAKER_11]: They had a phone on virtually every seat.
[01:35:37.570 --> 01:35:38.010]  [SPEAKER_04]: Seat, yeah.
[01:35:38.210 --> 01:35:40.450]  [SPEAKER_04]: How do they have different frequencies for every seat?
[01:35:40.650 --> 01:35:42.630]  [SPEAKER_11]: I don't really know how they worked.
[01:35:42.730 --> 01:35:45.690]  [SPEAKER_11]: A lot of times, though, the calls didn't go through, and a lot of times, they were of lousy sound quality.
[01:35:46.590 --> 01:35:47.810]  [SPEAKER_11]: But that's just the way it was.
[01:35:47.970 --> 01:35:49.250]  [SPEAKER_11]: Listen, we're going to have to go to another phone call.
[01:35:49.810 --> 01:35:50.130]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay.
[01:35:50.430 --> 01:35:53.190]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'll see you at the 2600 meeting, I guess.
[01:35:53.230 --> 01:35:55.210]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'll bring you a lot of things that IntelliCall gave me.
[01:35:55.370 --> 01:35:55.630]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay.
[01:35:55.710 --> 01:35:56.310]  [SPEAKER_11]: I'll look forward to it.
[01:35:56.430 --> 01:35:56.750]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay.
[01:35:56.970 --> 01:35:57.290]  [SPEAKER_11]: Take care.
[01:35:57.450 --> 01:35:57.570]  [SPEAKER_11]: Bye.
[01:35:58.030 --> 01:36:00.530]  [SPEAKER_11]: Speaking of the 2600 meeting, glad he reminded me.
[01:36:00.710 --> 01:36:03.170]  [SPEAKER_11]: There is a 2600 meeting not this Friday, right?
[01:36:03.230 --> 01:36:04.830]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's the Friday after that.
[01:36:04.930 --> 01:36:07.210]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, because this Friday won't be February yet.
[01:36:07.530 --> 01:36:11.730]  [SPEAKER_11]: Always the first Friday of the month, and it's taking place all over the place now.
[01:36:11.950 --> 01:36:20.850]  [SPEAKER_11]: The local one is here in New York City at the CityCore Center, which is on 53rd Street between Lexington and 3rd Avenue.
[01:36:21.150 --> 01:36:23.550]  [SPEAKER_11]: No, it's not in an office or anything like that.
[01:36:23.550 --> 01:36:25.090]  [SPEAKER_11]: No formal attire required.
[01:36:25.090 --> 01:36:28.470]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's basically a bunch of people that just sort of hang out in a mall type setting.
[01:36:28.790 --> 01:36:34.090]  [SPEAKER_11]: You come in, you see people hanging around payphones and talking in various clusters.
[01:36:34.090 --> 01:36:35.150]  [SPEAKER_11]: That's us.
[01:36:35.390 --> 01:36:36.130]  [SPEAKER_11]: That's us.
[01:36:36.130 --> 01:36:36.790]  [SPEAKER_11]: That's the hacker world.
[01:36:37.430 --> 01:36:40.430]  [SPEAKER_11]: And it takes place starting at around 5 p.m.
[01:36:40.430 --> 01:36:44.490]  [SPEAKER_11]: and going to around 8 at the CityCore Center on the first Friday of every month.
[01:36:44.490 --> 01:36:48.850]  [SPEAKER_11]: And it's taking place throughout the country at various cities.
[01:36:49.010 --> 01:36:51.450]  [SPEAKER_11]: In fact, we're going to have some new cities, which we'll announce next week.
[01:36:51.550 --> 01:37:00.910]  [SPEAKER_11]: But one that we will announce this week, because it's just so cool, is the first official 2600 meeting in Germany on February 5th, 1993, 6 p.m.
[01:37:00.970 --> 01:37:01.930]  [SPEAKER_11]: till 9 p.m.
[01:37:02.690 --> 01:37:06.650]  [SPEAKER_11]: After that, at other locations, and thereafter, every first Friday of the month.
[01:37:06.650 --> 01:37:10.850]  [SPEAKER_11]: I'm reading from the official press release of the German 2600 meeting.
[01:37:11.410 --> 01:37:21.550]  [SPEAKER_11]: This will be taking place in Munich, Germany, at the Hauptbahnhof, which is Central Station, on the first floor at Burger King and the Payphones.
[01:37:22.410 --> 01:37:23.350]  [SPEAKER_11]: Incredible, isn't it?
[01:37:23.470 --> 01:37:25.310]  [SPEAKER_11]: At Burger King and the Payphones in Germany.
[01:37:26.250 --> 01:37:29.050]  [SPEAKER_11]: By the way, just to have an aside here for a moment.
[01:37:29.150 --> 01:37:32.090]  [SPEAKER_11]: Do you know in Austin, Texas, they have something called a mustard whopper?
[01:37:33.010 --> 01:37:34.690]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, a mustard... it's really good.
[01:37:34.870 --> 01:37:35.710]  [SPEAKER_11]: It really is.
[01:37:35.750 --> 01:37:37.170]  [SPEAKER_11]: You give me that look, but it's really good.
[01:37:37.610 --> 01:37:38.370]  [SPEAKER_11]: Mustard whoppers.
[01:37:38.450 --> 01:37:44.290]  [SPEAKER_11]: They don't have them anywhere else, because I went to Phoenix, and I tried to get one there, and they had never heard of it, and I caused a whole big commotion.
[01:37:44.530 --> 01:37:49.050]  [SPEAKER_11]: And what they finally wound up doing was putting mustard on a whopper, and it just was not the same.
[01:37:50.610 --> 01:37:53.230]  [SPEAKER_11]: All these regional things in this country are amazing.
[01:37:53.390 --> 01:37:54.230]  [SPEAKER_11]: Mustard whoppers.
[01:37:54.850 --> 01:37:55.470]  [SPEAKER_11]: Not kidding.
[01:37:56.570 --> 01:37:58.690]  [SPEAKER_11]: And they discontinued twisty fries, too.
[01:37:59.530 --> 01:38:01.310]  [SPEAKER_11]: I was very upset to hear about that.
[01:38:02.270 --> 01:38:03.770]  [SPEAKER_11]: Anyway, to get back to Germany.
[01:38:04.110 --> 01:38:08.190]  [SPEAKER_11]: Germany and the German Burger King, which, by the way, they sell beer in the German Burger King.
[01:38:08.290 --> 01:38:08.990]  [SPEAKER_11]: I'll have you know.
[01:38:10.350 --> 01:38:13.190]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay, how much to go to the 2600 meeting in Germany?
[01:38:13.190 --> 01:38:14.590]  [SPEAKER_11]: It is absolutely free of charge.
[01:38:14.590 --> 01:38:15.510]  [SPEAKER_11]: Everyone can come.
[01:38:15.630 --> 01:38:16.870]  [SPEAKER_11]: No password required.
[01:38:17.490 --> 01:38:18.410]  [SPEAKER_11]: What's going to happen?
[01:38:18.750 --> 01:38:20.590]  [SPEAKER_11]: Distribution of the new 2600 issue.
[01:38:20.870 --> 01:38:21.950]  [SPEAKER_11]: Exchange of information.
[01:38:22.470 --> 01:38:24.130]  [SPEAKER_11]: Meeting elite people of the scene.
[01:38:24.750 --> 01:38:25.510]  [SPEAKER_11]: Sightseeing tour.
[01:38:25.750 --> 01:38:28.510]  [SPEAKER_11]: Past the Fernmelndimt.
[01:38:29.770 --> 01:38:31.730]  [SPEAKER_11]: I don't really know what that is.
[01:38:32.350 --> 01:38:38.050]  [SPEAKER_11]: And then there's this word FRHR period, which, of course, stands for something, but I don't know, not knowing German what it means.
[01:38:38.790 --> 01:38:39.190]  [SPEAKER_11]: V.
[01:38:40.550 --> 01:38:41.250]  [SPEAKER_11]: Gravenruth's office.
[01:38:41.250 --> 01:38:45.350]  [SPEAKER_11]: A row of 27 payphones at Karlsplatz and other spots.
[01:38:46.210 --> 01:38:48.850]  [SPEAKER_11]: Also, dinner with Burger King's delicious food.
[01:38:51.650 --> 01:38:55.350]  [SPEAKER_11]: Within one minute walking distance, there are over 50 payphones.
[01:38:55.730 --> 01:39:00.250]  [SPEAKER_11]: Coins, phone cards, credit cards, a fax using credit cards, callable payphones.
[01:39:00.650 --> 01:39:02.050]  [SPEAKER_11]: We'll give you the numbers in a moment.
[01:39:02.310 --> 01:39:05.330]  [SPEAKER_11]: A bank with currency exchange open until 11 p.m.
[01:39:05.330 --> 01:39:07.290]  [SPEAKER_11]: Also, cinemas, hookers,
[01:39:11.130 --> 01:39:13.150]  [SPEAKER_11]: public transport, cabs, and much more.
[01:39:13.790 --> 01:39:14.850]  [SPEAKER_11]: At 11 p.m.
[01:39:14.930 --> 01:39:18.910]  [SPEAKER_11]: German time, the East Coast 2600 meetings will start in New York, D.C., and other places.
[01:39:18.930 --> 01:39:21.270]  [SPEAKER_11]: Of course, we will have live teleconferences.
[01:39:21.830 --> 01:39:27.950]  [SPEAKER_11]: And at 2 a.m., the Los Angeles and San Francisco meetings start with live teleconferences, too.
[01:39:28.430 --> 01:39:30.150]  [SPEAKER_11]: They really get into it in Germany.
[01:39:30.550 --> 01:39:30.890]  [SPEAKER_11]: What else?
[01:39:30.950 --> 01:39:40.510]  [SPEAKER_11]: If you take the S-Bahn from Hauptbahnhof and go one station, which is just one minute, you'll reach Hackerbrock, which is the Hacker Bridge.
[01:39:41.090 --> 01:39:43.790]  [SPEAKER_11]: Of course, this is a perfect place to take souvenir pictures.
[01:39:44.050 --> 01:39:49.630]  [SPEAKER_11]: There are also lots of places where you can taste the Hacker Shore beer, which is brewed in Munich, which I have had.
[01:39:50.070 --> 01:39:51.470]  [SPEAKER_11]: I've had it here in the United States.
[01:39:52.410 --> 01:40:02.570]  [SPEAKER_11]: If you have any questions, comments, suggestions, or just want to tell us that you're going to drop by, you can send email to 2600 at sectech.
[01:40:03.590 --> 01:40:05.630]  [SPEAKER_11]: I'll spell this out because I can't pronounce the words.
[01:40:06.090 --> 01:40:15.570]  [SPEAKER_11]: 2600-2600 at sign S-E-C-T-E-C dot H-A-N-S-E dot D-E.
[01:40:15.770 --> 01:40:17.350]  [SPEAKER_11]: D-E meaning Deutschland, Germany.
[01:40:17.650 --> 01:40:19.110]  [SPEAKER_11]: Give that address one more time.
[01:40:19.110 --> 01:40:25.790]  [SPEAKER_11]: 2600 at S-E-C-T-E-C dot H-A-N-S-E dot D-E.
[01:40:25.950 --> 01:40:34.890]  [SPEAKER_11]: If you don't have Internet access, you can call our voice mailbox at, well, this is city code 1.
[01:40:35.990 --> 01:40:43.190]  [SPEAKER_11]: Of course, the country code for Germany is 49, so you'd have to dial 01149, and then 1, I believe.
[01:40:44.010 --> 01:40:45.090]  [SPEAKER_11]: I believe that's right.
[01:40:45.430 --> 01:40:47.630]  [SPEAKER_11]: 904-366-4431.
[01:40:47.630 --> 01:40:49.070]  [SPEAKER_11]: Actually, that doesn't sound right to me.
[01:40:49.150 --> 01:40:50.350]  [SPEAKER_11]: It sounds like there's too many numbers there.
[01:40:50.890 --> 01:40:53.810]  [SPEAKER_11]: You also receive up-to-date information about the events going on.
[01:40:53.970 --> 01:40:58.730]  [SPEAKER_11]: At the meeting, you can reach the German 2600 meeting at these payphone numbers.
[01:40:59.110 --> 01:41:03.390]  [SPEAKER_11]: City code 89591-835.
[01:41:04.070 --> 01:41:09.110]  [SPEAKER_11]: So you would dial 01149-89591-835.
[01:41:09.610 --> 01:41:15.930]  [SPEAKER_11]: Or city code 89558-541 through 545.
[01:41:17.210 --> 01:41:20.350]  [SPEAKER_11]: With the last numbers, you have to tell the operator to put you through.
[01:41:20.350 --> 01:41:22.270]  [SPEAKER_11]: The first number should work directly.
[01:41:23.390 --> 01:41:31.450]  [SPEAKER_11]: We scan many places for callable payphones, but you won't find two payphones in Munich, which are both reachable from the outside and closer than 100 meters to each other.
[01:41:32.490 --> 01:41:36.330]  [SPEAKER_11]: And that's just the way of life, I suppose.
[01:41:37.210 --> 01:41:41.650]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay, and that's the first 2600 hacker meeting in Germany.
[01:41:41.810 --> 01:41:44.150]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's really getting pretty dangerous, isn't it?
[01:41:44.630 --> 01:41:46.890]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's spreading throughout the entire planet.
[01:41:47.570 --> 01:41:49.970]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay, let's take another phone call.
[01:41:50.150 --> 01:41:53.110]  [SPEAKER_11]: And again, we only have five minutes left.
[01:41:53.730 --> 01:41:55.110]  [SPEAKER_11]: Let's get some phone calls.
[01:41:55.250 --> 01:41:59.330]  [SPEAKER_11]: Let's get some pledges coming in from those of you that have not yet pledged.
[01:41:59.490 --> 01:42:12.910]  [SPEAKER_11]: I know there's people out there, and if you hesitate much longer, you will forever lose your chance to pledge and receive the 2600 t-shirt and the 2600 magazine for a full year for pledging.
[01:42:13.270 --> 01:42:15.170]  [SPEAKER_11]: 212-279-3400.
[01:42:15.170 --> 01:42:17.070]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's extremely easy, extremely painless.
[01:42:17.370 --> 01:42:20.990]  [SPEAKER_11]: We have volunteers standing by, hoping that you will call.
[01:42:21.210 --> 01:42:21.850]  [SPEAKER_11]: Please call.
[01:42:22.010 --> 01:42:23.870]  [SPEAKER_11]: 212-279-3400.
[01:42:24.050 --> 01:42:30.430]  [SPEAKER_11]: If you've gotten anything out of this radio program at all, please call and just say thanks a little bit, you know?
[01:42:30.870 --> 01:42:34.010]  [SPEAKER_11]: It helps us out so much, and it makes us feel really good.
[01:42:34.210 --> 01:42:39.230]  [SPEAKER_11]: It gives us the desire to keep going.
[01:42:39.230 --> 01:42:49.770]  [SPEAKER_11]: We always have that desire to keep going, but you really need that shot in the arm, you know, to really keep going, to really come back next week with all kinds of great bits of information.
[01:42:49.770 --> 01:42:51.790]  [SPEAKER_11]: And we do already have next week's show planned.
[01:42:52.450 --> 01:42:53.570]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's going to be interesting.
[01:42:53.810 --> 01:42:57.290]  [SPEAKER_11]: A lot of legal things that are going on that are quite disturbing.
[01:42:58.130 --> 01:43:00.510]  [SPEAKER_11]: It doesn't just stop in the hacker world.
[01:43:00.730 --> 01:43:01.370]  [SPEAKER_11]: Remember that.
[01:43:01.610 --> 01:43:03.350]  [SPEAKER_11]: It goes on in a lot of worlds.
[01:43:04.010 --> 01:43:05.730]  [SPEAKER_11]: It affects us all either way.
[01:43:05.850 --> 01:43:07.360]  [SPEAKER_11]: 212-279-3400.
[01:43:08.110 --> 01:43:08.950]  [SPEAKER_11]: Show your support.
[01:43:09.670 --> 01:43:10.010]  [SPEAKER_11]: All right.
[01:43:10.070 --> 01:43:14.030]  [SPEAKER_11]: Let's take a couple of listener phone calls here on the non-pledge lines.
[01:43:14.150 --> 01:43:16.610]  [SPEAKER_11]: Hopefully, all these people are already pledging.
[01:43:17.430 --> 01:43:18.050]  [SPEAKER_11]: Good evening.
[01:43:18.210 --> 01:43:19.090]  [SPEAKER_11]: You're on off the hook.
[01:43:19.590 --> 01:43:20.310]  [SPEAKER_17]: Yeah, good evening, guys.
[01:43:20.390 --> 01:43:20.870]  [SPEAKER_17]: How are you doing?
[01:43:20.970 --> 01:43:21.410]  [SPEAKER_17]: Great show.
[01:43:21.670 --> 01:43:21.930]  [SPEAKER_11]: Thank you.
[01:43:22.570 --> 01:43:22.790]  [SPEAKER_17]: Okay.
[01:43:22.950 --> 01:43:24.550]  [SPEAKER_17]: There are some questions I'd like to ask.
[01:43:24.650 --> 01:43:33.050]  [SPEAKER_17]: First of all, as far as computer hardware, if you would like to, let's say, assemble a computer yourself from scratch, would you recommend any books or anything like that on there?
[01:43:33.590 --> 01:43:35.270]  [SPEAKER_11]: To assemble a computer from scratch?
[01:43:35.510 --> 01:43:37.170]  [SPEAKER_17]: Yeah, if you want to just put the computer together.
[01:43:38.690 --> 01:43:41.710]  [SPEAKER_10]: I don't know that I'd know any books offhand.
[01:43:41.710 --> 01:43:43.590]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's relatively simple.
[01:43:43.830 --> 01:43:47.430]  [SPEAKER_10]: If you're just going to buy a motherboard and buy the case, there's plenty of catalogs.
[01:43:47.490 --> 01:43:51.750]  [SPEAKER_10]: You can buy those sorts of things separately and put them together, and it's usually cheaper.
[01:43:51.910 --> 01:43:53.010]  [SPEAKER_10]: You wouldn't need a book to do that.
[01:43:53.690 --> 01:43:53.990]  [SPEAKER_17]: Okay.
[01:43:54.070 --> 01:44:01.870]  [SPEAKER_17]: So I can just go there to any, let's say, not to name a company, but say, but PC warehouse, and I can put together stuff from there.
[01:44:02.610 --> 01:44:03.790]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's perfectly possible.
[01:44:04.010 --> 01:44:10.090]  [SPEAKER_10]: I'm not familiar with any particular company, but there's plenty that you could buy motherboards and cases from.
[01:44:10.650 --> 01:44:11.050]  [SPEAKER_17]: Okay.
[01:44:11.050 --> 01:44:13.410]  [SPEAKER_17]: Are there any pitfalls to look out for?
[01:44:13.530 --> 01:44:17.990]  [SPEAKER_17]: Let's say, for instance, mixing brand names, like putting different hard drives inside.
[01:44:18.250 --> 01:44:22.650]  [SPEAKER_17]: Are there any things like, can I mix and match Toshiba versus IBM and stuff like that?
[01:44:24.010 --> 01:44:28.010]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, hard drives in general are narrowed down to different types.
[01:44:28.210 --> 01:44:32.630]  [SPEAKER_10]: There's IDE and SCSI and MFM.
[01:44:32.910 --> 01:44:39.110]  [SPEAKER_10]: As long as the controller card was made for that format of hard drive, it doesn't matter who the manufacturer is.
[01:44:39.110 --> 01:44:44.290]  [SPEAKER_10]: As long as you're matching the protocol that the hard drive and the controller card are using so they can talk to each other.
[01:44:44.550 --> 01:44:47.490]  [SPEAKER_11]: Sir, I suggest you give a call to the Personal Computer Show next week.
[01:44:47.550 --> 01:44:49.230]  [SPEAKER_11]: They can probably give you a lot more specific information.
[01:44:49.530 --> 01:44:50.610]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, that would be more appropriate.
[01:44:51.050 --> 01:44:51.310]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay.
[01:44:51.450 --> 01:44:51.870]  [SPEAKER_10]: Thanks a lot.
[01:44:51.870 --> 01:44:52.830]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay, thanks for calling.
[01:44:52.890 --> 01:44:56.970]  [SPEAKER_11]: The Personal Computer Show, of course, is on Wednesday nights at 9 o'clock.
[01:44:56.970 --> 01:44:58.750]  [SPEAKER_11]: We're on Wednesday nights at 10.
[01:44:59.230 --> 01:45:01.010]  [SPEAKER_11]: Let's take one more phone call.
[01:45:01.930 --> 01:45:02.590]  [SPEAKER_11]: Good evening.
[01:45:02.690 --> 01:45:03.570]  [SPEAKER_11]: You're on off the hook.
[01:45:04.150 --> 01:45:04.310]  [SPEAKER_01]: Hi.
[01:45:04.450 --> 01:45:05.610]  [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for taking the call.
[01:45:05.610 --> 01:45:14.030]  [SPEAKER_01]: Earlier, you mentioned if you summon dial star 70, then you disable the call waiting.
[01:45:14.310 --> 01:45:14.730]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's right.
[01:45:14.950 --> 01:45:25.010]  [SPEAKER_01]: And my question is that how can I implement this phone number when I dial something from the modem?
[01:45:25.290 --> 01:45:34.490]  [SPEAKER_01]: That is, what is the equivalent of the star and the pound sign if I type in the number from the computer keyboard?
[01:45:34.490 --> 01:45:35.390]  [SPEAKER_11]: Same thing.
[01:45:35.530 --> 01:45:37.410]  [SPEAKER_11]: The star that's above the 8.
[01:45:37.490 --> 01:45:38.910]  [SPEAKER_11]: This is assuming you have touchstone, of course.
[01:45:39.170 --> 01:45:39.290]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[01:45:39.570 --> 01:45:44.890]  [SPEAKER_11]: But the star above the 8, or if you don't have touchstone, 1-1 instead of the star.
[01:45:45.870 --> 01:45:56.030]  [SPEAKER_01]: So if I am typing phone numbers into my computer through the keyboard, should I just simply type the star 70?
[01:45:56.510 --> 01:45:57.350]  [SPEAKER_10]: That's right, yeah.
[01:45:57.830 --> 01:46:02.150]  [SPEAKER_10]: One thing to bear in mind is that in some cases, you don't need to pause.
[01:46:02.150 --> 01:46:05.430]  [SPEAKER_10]: You could just do star 70 with the number immediately after that.
[01:46:06.030 --> 01:46:10.610]  [SPEAKER_10]: In some instances, you may have to insert a pause, and to do that, you would use a couple of commas.
[01:46:11.230 --> 01:46:12.630]  [SPEAKER_11]: One comma should be more than enough.
[01:46:12.770 --> 01:46:12.890]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
[01:46:13.370 --> 01:46:15.710]  [SPEAKER_10]: You only need a slight pause, if even necessary at all.
[01:46:15.870 --> 01:46:24.190]  [SPEAKER_10]: So you'd actually type in star 70, a comma if you need one, and then just the 1 plus area code and number, or however you'd normally dial.
[01:46:24.190 --> 01:46:38.110]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay, we are out of time, so I want to thank those people for calling in and give one last, last, I beg, I guess, for people to call up and pledge money to the radio station, 212-279-3400.
[01:46:38.170 --> 01:46:39.630]  [SPEAKER_11]: I want to thank everybody that called in.
[01:46:39.710 --> 01:46:42.390]  [SPEAKER_11]: I don't want to all give the impression that we didn't do well, because we did.
[01:46:42.390 --> 01:46:44.810]  [SPEAKER_11]: We raised $1,520.
[01:46:46.130 --> 01:46:47.170]  [SPEAKER_11]: $1,520.
[01:46:47.510 --> 01:46:48.170]  [SPEAKER_11]: That is incredible.
[01:46:48.390 --> 01:46:54.110]  [SPEAKER_11]: That's better than I thought possible, and I owe people my unending gratitude for that.
[01:46:54.450 --> 01:47:00.350]  [SPEAKER_11]: But if you haven't called and you still want to join the people that have called, please do it now, because we are leaving.
[01:47:00.730 --> 01:47:03.410]  [SPEAKER_11]: 212-279-3400.
[01:47:03.850 --> 01:47:06.510]  [SPEAKER_11]: We'll be back again next week.
[01:47:06.510 --> 01:47:18.930]  [SPEAKER_11]: Until then, keep looking to the sky, keep those dreams floating, and don't ever get too old to dream.
[01:47:20.590 --> 01:47:22.610]  [SPEAKER_11]: See you next week.
[01:47:22.910 --> 01:47:23.470]  [SPEAKER_06]: Good night.