Off The Hook - 1993-02-03

[00:02.930 --> 00:05.250]  [SPEAKER_09]: ...35 West 4th Street.
[00:05.510 --> 00:10.330]  [SPEAKER_09]: For information, call 212-545-7536.
[00:10.810 --> 00:16.770]  [SPEAKER_08]: Also on Friday, Haiti meets the Bahamas at SOB's with JoJo and the Exit Band.
[00:17.070 --> 00:18.810]  [SPEAKER_08]: Back-to-back with the Baja Men.
[00:19.110 --> 00:20.870]  [SPEAKER_08]: Shows are 11 p.m.
[00:20.950 --> 00:22.210]  [SPEAKER_08]: and 1 a.m.
[00:22.370 --> 00:27.590]  [SPEAKER_08]: For information, call 212-243-4940.
[00:27.590 --> 00:44.610]  [SPEAKER_09]: On Friday and Saturday, February 5th and 6th, the New Faces, New Voices, New Visions series presents Unveiling Treasures, a bilingual celebration of Dominicans in the U.S., featuring music by Asa DiFei, with poems and stories presented by Josefina Baez and Guy Davis.
[00:45.010 --> 00:51.310]  [SPEAKER_09]: Find these treasures at Aaron Davis Hall, Convent Avenue and West 135th Street on the City College campus.
[00:51.730 --> 00:56.130]  [SPEAKER_09]: For information, call 212-650-7100.
[00:56.130 --> 01:08.470]  [SPEAKER_08]: Also on Saturday, the 6th, the World Music Institute's New American Series presents Music from China, an ensemble featuring ancient folk and modern Chinese music.
[01:09.050 --> 01:11.070]  [SPEAKER_08]: Concert begins at 8 p.m.
[01:11.410 --> 01:15.330]  [SPEAKER_08]: at Queen's College Concert Hall, Kolden Center for the Performing Arts.
[01:15.870 --> 01:21.130]  [SPEAKER_08]: For information, call 718-793-8080.
[01:21.130 --> 01:34.510]  [SPEAKER_09]: And Saturday, February 6th, celebrate Bob Marley Day with Tony Rebel, Judy Mowat and Sedella Marley Booker and featuring WBAI's very own DJs, Midnight Ravers, plus other special guests.
[01:34.910 --> 01:36.190]  [SPEAKER_09]: Doors open 8 p.m.
[01:36.350 --> 01:40.630]  [SPEAKER_09]: show begins at 9 at The Ritz, 54th Street, West of Broadway.
[01:41.110 --> 01:45.710]  [SPEAKER_09]: For information, call 212-541-8900.
[01:46.530 --> 01:56.670]  [SPEAKER_08]: And rounding off the week at SOB's, on Saturday, February 6th, the sultry Afro-Caribbean salsa of India and her orchestra in her U.S.
[01:56.750 --> 01:57.110]  [SPEAKER_08]: debut.
[01:57.930 --> 01:59.390]  [SPEAKER_08]: Showtimes are 11 p.m.
[01:59.510 --> 02:00.670]  [SPEAKER_08]: and 1 a.m.
[02:00.930 --> 02:05.850]  [SPEAKER_09]: On Monday the 8th, La Tropica Nights presents the legendary Tito Puente.
[02:06.310 --> 02:07.270]  [SPEAKER_09]: Need we say more?
[02:07.590 --> 02:09.670]  [SPEAKER_09]: Shows are at 9 at 11 p.m.
[02:09.670 --> 02:19.270]  [SPEAKER_08]: And on Tuesday the 9th, Bob Telson and Little Village in a special night of music from gospel to salsa with shows at 9 and 11 p.m.
[02:20.270 --> 02:24.470]  [SPEAKER_08]: SOB's, you may remember, is located at 204 Varick Street.
[02:24.790 --> 02:29.990]  [SPEAKER_08]: For information, call 212-243-4940.
[02:30.570 --> 02:33.650]  [SPEAKER_09]: And that's the music culture calendar for the week coming up.
[02:33.790 --> 02:39.430]  [SPEAKER_09]: Keep listening to WBAI for regular reports on world music and other cultural events around New York.
[02:39.430 --> 02:42.230]  [SPEAKER_09]: For music culture, I'm Neva Wartell.
[02:42.350 --> 02:43.950]  [SPEAKER_09]: And I'm Serena Castelli.
[02:48.170 --> 02:52.850]  [SPEAKER_05]: And thank you for telling us all we want to know about these particular items.
[02:53.130 --> 02:54.030]  [SPEAKER_05]: And more.
[02:54.490 --> 02:56.170]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's 10.02.
[02:56.570 --> 02:58.130]  [SPEAKER_05]: This is WBAI New York.
[02:58.370 --> 02:59.790]  [SPEAKER_05]: Time for Off the Hook.
[03:05.950 --> 03:27.590]  [SPEAKER_12]: The telephone keeps ringing So I ripped it off the wall I cut myself while shaving Now I can't make a call It couldn't get much worse But if they could, they would Bon Dillibon But I best expect the worst I hope that's understood Bon Dillibon
[03:59.040 --> 04:00.220]  [SPEAKER_05]: Good evening, everybody.
[04:00.240 --> 04:01.800]  [SPEAKER_05]: This is Off the Hook.
[04:01.940 --> 04:05.160]  [SPEAKER_05]: Emmanuel Goldstein with you until 11 o'clock tonight.
[04:05.580 --> 04:10.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: Talking about advances in the world of high tech and the fight for freedom in the computer age.
[04:11.500 --> 04:13.740]  [SPEAKER_05]: We have Steve Jackson with us tonight.
[04:13.740 --> 04:19.100]  [SPEAKER_05]: He's going to be talking about his recent trial and how that's turning out.
[04:19.530 --> 04:22.240]  [SPEAKER_05]: And we have all kinds of news updates as well.
[04:22.240 --> 04:26.170]  [SPEAKER_05]: In fact, let's get to one of those news updates right now.
[04:26.400 --> 04:29.650]  [SPEAKER_05]: We've all heard about the cellular phone scare.
[04:31.060 --> 04:37.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, interesting bit of panic that's spreading around in the high tech world now.
[04:38.290 --> 04:40.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, cellular phones can give you brain cancer.
[04:40.480 --> 04:41.260]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's what people are saying.
[04:41.260 --> 04:44.290]  [SPEAKER_05]: Because you hold up these things next to your head and you're transmitting all the time.
[04:44.290 --> 04:45.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: And who knows?
[04:45.900 --> 04:47.170]  [SPEAKER_05]: Who knows what the effects of that will be.
[04:47.270 --> 04:53.790]  [SPEAKER_05]: And of course, all kinds of other things that you hold up to your head that emit radiation of various kinds.
[04:54.150 --> 04:55.170]  [SPEAKER_05]: Cordless phones, perhaps.
[04:56.480 --> 04:57.810]  [SPEAKER_05]: And walkie-talkies.
[04:58.150 --> 04:59.150]  [SPEAKER_05]: Who knows what else?
[05:00.200 --> 05:12.310]  [SPEAKER_05]: According to Newsday, while saying there is no cause for alarm, public health officials have urged a simple step for cellular telephone users who are worried about a possible link between cancer and the wireless handheld devices.
[05:12.340 --> 05:13.530]  [SPEAKER_05]: And this is really ingenious.
[05:13.530 --> 05:15.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: You've got to hand it to the health officials for coming up with this.
[05:16.020 --> 05:17.460]  [SPEAKER_05]: Use them less.
[05:18.290 --> 05:18.910]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's right.
[05:18.980 --> 05:19.530]  [SPEAKER_05]: Use them less.
[05:19.670 --> 05:22.460]  [SPEAKER_05]: If you are concerned, reduce your time of exposure.
[05:22.720 --> 05:26.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: Don't spend two hours on a cellular telephone if you can get to a regular one.
[05:27.780 --> 05:31.430]  [SPEAKER_05]: Shorter exposure is always better, said Dr. David Kleffman of the U.S.
[05:31.780 --> 05:32.810]  [SPEAKER_05]: Environmental Protection Agency.
[05:33.100 --> 05:36.580]  [SPEAKER_05]: We say people don't need to stay two hours on a cellular phone.
[05:37.480 --> 05:43.720]  [SPEAKER_05]: The two were among scientists at a briefing for the House Energy and Commerce Telecommunications Subcommittee in Washington.
[05:43.900 --> 05:59.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: It was called in the wake of public fears that flared after David Raynard of St. Petersburg, Florida, caused a whole lot of trouble by filing a lawsuit alleging that his wife died of a brain tumor that developed close to where she had been holding her cellular phone.
[06:00.360 --> 06:11.500]  [SPEAKER_05]: The officials agreed there is no strong evidence linking the phones to cancer, but they said few studies have been done on the possible health effects of microwaves, such as those used in cellular phones and other wireless devices.
[06:11.720 --> 06:24.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: Public concern has focused on the handheld cellular devices with antennas close to the user's head, not on car phones, which have exterior antennas, or on cordless phones, which operate differently.
[06:25.240 --> 06:31.170]  [SPEAKER_05]: The subject begs for further study, said the chief of the FDA's radiation biology branch.
[06:31.860 --> 06:38.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: There is no basis to say that there is a hazard, but there is some data to indicate that there is a potential for hazards.
[06:38.480 --> 06:39.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: Doesn't that make you feel great?
[06:41.480 --> 06:45.220]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, get this, the cellular industry has maintained that the phones are safe.
[06:45.420 --> 06:48.600]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now, who cares what the cellular industry says?
[06:48.660 --> 06:50.460]  [SPEAKER_05]: Of course they're going to say the phones are safe.
[06:50.580 --> 06:53.140]  [SPEAKER_05]: They have a bit of a vested interest in this, don't they?
[06:53.140 --> 07:00.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: They also say that, uh, that the phone conversations themselves are secure, that people can't listen to them because it's illegal to listen.
[07:00.580 --> 07:03.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: So, of course, no one's going to listen if it's illegal.
[07:04.760 --> 07:05.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: Ah, yeah.
[07:06.000 --> 07:08.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: Cellular phone manufacturers say it's safe.
[07:08.740 --> 07:10.100]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's, uh, the first sign of trouble.
[07:11.480 --> 07:18.600]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, when a bank computer system goes down, the problem is usually solved in minutes, or in extreme cases, hours.
[07:19.360 --> 07:23.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: That makes nations' banks' four-day disaster, one for the books.
[07:23.920 --> 07:31.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: The glitch delayed posting of deposits and withdrawals to consumer accounts in North Carolina and South Carolina.
[07:31.540 --> 07:38.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: As a result, Nations Bank bounced checks that should have cleared, drawing the ire of local retailers.
[07:38.660 --> 07:44.600]  [SPEAKER_05]: The problem occurred December 1st through December 4th, but details only recently came to light.
[07:46.120 --> 07:52.400]  [SPEAKER_05]: The culprit was a data center in Texas run by Perot Systems, founded by H.
[07:52.540 --> 07:53.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: Ross Perot.
[07:53.780 --> 07:59.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: Customers had access to their money if they went to their own branch, said a Nations Bank spokesman.
[07:59.120 --> 08:01.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: We just didn't know exactly how much money they had in their accounts.
[08:02.960 --> 08:03.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, boy.
[08:05.580 --> 08:06.780]  [SPEAKER_05]: And what else do we have here?
[08:07.050 --> 08:13.550]  [SPEAKER_05]: Consumers who decide to terminate their cable TV service must be allowed to buy the wiring in their homes, according to the FCC.
[08:14.100 --> 08:18.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: The FCC said the cable company must offer to sell the wiring at replacement cost.
[08:18.550 --> 08:26.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: Some cable companies had yanked out the wiring when customers canceled their service, a practice outlawed by the cable re-regulation law enacted last year.
[08:27.080 --> 08:32.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: The FCC is issuing many new rules to implement the new cable law.
[08:34.120 --> 08:40.550]  [SPEAKER_05]: And with, uh, a new administration coming in to the, uh, White House, there have been, uh, quite a few changes.
[08:40.670 --> 08:43.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: This article appeared in the New York Times last week.
[08:43.840 --> 08:54.400]  [SPEAKER_05]: The staff members at the Clinton White House were still flush with victory from the campaign and recovering from a week of inaugural parties when they moved into their new digs last week.
[08:54.780 --> 08:57.240]  [SPEAKER_05]: And then they saw the typewriters.
[08:58.160 --> 09:04.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: Most of the young staff had been reared on easy-touch computer keyboards, satellite dishes, voicemail, and fax machines.
[09:04.880 --> 09:06.640]  [SPEAKER_05]: They were horrified.
[09:07.580 --> 09:09.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: This is the White House, said D.D.
[09:09.580 --> 09:10.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: Myers, the, uh, press secretary.
[09:10.980 --> 09:11.930]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's a beautiful building.
[09:12.210 --> 09:15.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: Less posh than people would suspect, and certainly with less space.
[09:15.570 --> 09:19.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: But technologically, it's somewhere between Roosevelt and Truman.
[09:20.050 --> 09:31.790]  [SPEAKER_05]: At the, uh, presidential campaign headquarters in Little Rock, Arkansas, Bill Clinton's aides could push one button and watch their candidate on satellite or pick up their phones and listen to them give a live speech.
[09:32.020 --> 09:42.450]  [SPEAKER_05]: New service machines hummed on every floor, and the computers had three levels of electronic mail through which aides could communicate with each other and process requests from constituents.
[09:43.190 --> 09:46.740]  [SPEAKER_05]: To understand the culture shock, note this.
[09:46.980 --> 09:54.290]  [SPEAKER_05]: One of former President George Bush's first tasks on retiring to Houston last week was to learn how to operate a computer.
[09:54.920 --> 09:59.810]  [SPEAKER_05]: Nearly a year after a first lesson in the White House was scheduled and then canceled.
[10:00.690 --> 10:02.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: Call the change generational.
[10:02.790 --> 10:03.740]  [SPEAKER_05]: Call it cultural.
[10:04.050 --> 10:06.690]  [SPEAKER_05]: The people at the White House are calling it techno shock.
[10:07.240 --> 10:15.760]  [SPEAKER_05]: There is no technology at the White House, moaned a presidential assistant as he left the executive mansion one night on his way to a working dinner.
[10:16.280 --> 10:23.290]  [SPEAKER_05]: Complaints about the White House by new occupants are a tradition dating back to the, uh, 19th century, so that's nothing new in itself.
[10:25.160 --> 10:28.880]  [SPEAKER_05]: But phone lines to the, uh, executive offices have been clogged for days.
[10:29.310 --> 10:35.670]  [SPEAKER_05]: One aide said he was shocked to discover that there were 65 phone systems feeding into the White House.
[10:35.810 --> 10:36.590]  [SPEAKER_05]: Sixty-five.
[10:38.190 --> 10:49.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: When senior aides want the latest news service report, they have to hustle downstairs to the Situation Room in the basement of the West Wing, a paneled room that is a secure military command center full of classified material.
[10:50.360 --> 11:00.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: The Republicans always said they wanted to run things like a business, said Paul Begala, a campaign consultant who will continue to help President Clinton under contract to the Democratic National Committee.
[11:00.960 --> 11:04.500]  [SPEAKER_05]: Instead, they were running it like Bartleby the Scrivener.
[11:05.260 --> 11:06.260]  [SPEAKER_05]: Interesting comparison.
[11:06.580 --> 11:12.180]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, the cost of preparing the White House for the 21st century might be prohibitive.
[11:12.700 --> 11:17.060]  [SPEAKER_05]: And any changes would have to take into account the building's historical significance.
[11:17.240 --> 11:21.060]  [SPEAKER_05]: But White House officials said this was a hurdle that could be overcome and would be.
[11:21.820 --> 11:27.090]  [SPEAKER_05]: The first few days was complete techno-shock, but now we've had some therapy and we're working through it.
[11:27.960 --> 11:34.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: But speaking of, uh, technological advances in the White House, we have an Internet address for the White House.
[11:35.040 --> 11:39.200]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yes, it seems that the White House has now joined the Internet.
[11:39.320 --> 11:45.060]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now, it's not really the Internet because it's, uh, it's only CompuServe, but it's the closest we've ever had.
[11:45.260 --> 11:47.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: And maybe someday they, they will really get on the Internet.
[11:47.710 --> 11:54.090]  [SPEAKER_05]: But if you want to send the letter or a bit of electronic mail to the White House, they, they won't send you a reply.
[11:54.090 --> 11:56.560]  [SPEAKER_05]: They'll send you a form letter saying that they won't send you a reply.
[11:57.060 --> 11:59.780]  [SPEAKER_05]: And if that's good enough for you, then I guess you'll be happy with that.
[11:59.880 --> 12:04.760]  [SPEAKER_05]: But, uh, eventually they will send replies, is the rumor going around.
[12:05.180 --> 12:06.090]  [SPEAKER_05]: Here's the address.
[12:08.180 --> 12:20.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: 75300.3115, at sign, CompuServe, that's C-O-M-P-U-S-E-R-V-E dot com, C-O-M.
[12:20.540 --> 12:27.140]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now, hopefully the White House will have their own domain and, uh, they won't have to go through a commercial service like this.
[12:27.240 --> 12:36.590]  [SPEAKER_05]: And they'll truly be on the Internet and you can FTP files and tell that over to the White House and do an online chat with the president and neat things like that, you know.
[12:38.160 --> 12:43.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, uh, something out of, uh, out of New England, Southern New England Telephone, S-N-E-T.
[12:44.780 --> 12:47.160]  [SPEAKER_05]: SNET is what, uh, it's affectionately referred to.
[12:47.780 --> 12:50.780]  [SPEAKER_05]: Put out this, uh, this little, uh, bulletin.
[12:50.880 --> 12:52.740]  [SPEAKER_05]: Thanks to the, uh, listener for sending this in.
[12:54.520 --> 12:58.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: Concerning caller ID and what they call per-line blocking.
[12:59.750 --> 13:06.040]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now, per-line blocking is, uh, their term for when a phone line defaults to the privacy setting.
[13:06.680 --> 13:15.560]  [SPEAKER_05]: Per-call blocking is what you can dial, I believe it's star six, seven, to, uh, to not have your number sent on a particular call.
[13:15.800 --> 13:21.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: But if you have a, a, a line that's blocked, that means it's always going to prevent your number from being transmitted.
[13:21.700 --> 13:26.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: Here in New York, as caller ID is introduced, that service is, is provided free.
[13:27.080 --> 13:29.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: You simply have to, uh, have to tell the phone company that.
[13:29.920 --> 13:31.160]  [SPEAKER_05]: I think it should be one step further.
[13:31.210 --> 13:36.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: I think that should be the default, and you should tell the phone company if you want to transmit your number, since you've never done that before.
[13:37.470 --> 13:40.160]  [SPEAKER_05]: But, what we have here is better than what a lot of places have.
[13:40.360 --> 13:43.780]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now, listen to how Southern New England Telephone rewards it.
[13:44.420 --> 13:48.680]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, and, and tell me if you think that they, uh, they sort of don't want you to get this.
[13:49.090 --> 13:50.500]  [SPEAKER_05]: Per line blocking.
[13:50.700 --> 13:58.040]  [SPEAKER_05]: A per line blocking option is available to those who view per call blocking as inadequate for personal safety reasons.
[13:58.320 --> 14:04.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: Per line blocking automatically prevents a telephone number from being displayed on another person's caller ID device.
[14:05.260 --> 14:15.590]  [SPEAKER_05]: On all calls made from a telephone line equipped with per line blocking, the words private, anonymous, or the letter P will appear on a caller ID device.
[14:16.330 --> 14:31.240]  [SPEAKER_05]: The advantage of per line blocking is that numbers are blocked for all calls made from a particular line, eliminating the need to press star six seven or one one six seven before making a call to keep the number from being displayed on another person's caller ID device.
[14:31.740 --> 14:41.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: A disadvantage of per line blocking is that some caller ID subscribers may ignore calls marked private, and callers will not know why their calls are unanswered.
[14:42.060 --> 14:44.240]  [SPEAKER_05]: I don't know anybody that stupid to you.
[14:45.210 --> 14:49.560]  [SPEAKER_05]: And you know, it's interesting because they only say what the disadvantages of these particular services are.
[14:49.640 --> 14:53.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: They don't say what the disadvantages of not getting these services are.
[14:54.040 --> 14:55.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: Those only have advantages.
[14:55.360 --> 14:59.040]  [SPEAKER_05]: So you know, they're, they're really trying to, uh, trying to sell this to you.
[15:00.200 --> 15:01.210]  [SPEAKER_05]: Anyway, it gets worse.
[15:01.400 --> 15:07.500]  [SPEAKER_05]: If a caller ID subscriber chooses not to answer private calls, there is no way to unblock the line to send a number.
[15:08.380 --> 15:09.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: Again, that's untrue here in New York.
[15:10.000 --> 15:13.680]  [SPEAKER_05]: You can also dial star six seven to unblock a block line.
[15:14.380 --> 15:16.260]  [SPEAKER_05]: Your number will be provided to 911.
[15:16.500 --> 15:23.880]  [SPEAKER_05]: However, if you choose per line blocking, your number will not be provided to other emergency services such as poison control centers, hospitals, ambulances, etc.
[15:24.140 --> 15:25.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: when you call for assistance.
[15:25.860 --> 15:27.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now, here's the good part.
[15:28.560 --> 15:30.400]  [SPEAKER_05]: Here's how you get per line blocking.
[15:30.520 --> 15:31.830]  [SPEAKER_05]: You can't just ask for it.
[15:31.860 --> 15:33.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: You have to qualify for it.
[15:34.160 --> 15:37.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, you don't want to just give this, uh, service to anybody, you know.
[15:37.830 --> 15:41.210]  [SPEAKER_05]: Something that is our, up till now, our God-given right.
[15:41.540 --> 15:43.090]  [SPEAKER_05]: Our, our right to be anonymous on the phone.
[15:43.160 --> 15:45.440]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, now you have to apply for it.
[15:45.960 --> 15:46.560]  [SPEAKER_05]: All right.
[15:46.830 --> 15:49.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: Per line blocking is available in one of two ways.
[15:51.090 --> 16:06.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: At no charge to domestic violence shelters and their employees and volunteers, any federal, state, and local law enforcement agency and any customer who obtains verification from a domestic violence shelter that he or she has been, he or she is, or has been,
[16:06.960 --> 16:14.590]  [SPEAKER_05]: a client of that shelter or from a law enforcement agency that he or she has filed one or more complaints alleging harassment, threats, or other similar types of conduct.
[16:15.980 --> 16:16.460]  [SPEAKER_05]: Right.
[16:16.710 --> 16:22.040]  [SPEAKER_05]: This option also is available at no charge to non-profit crisis intervention agencies and helplines.
[16:22.780 --> 16:24.180]  [SPEAKER_05]: So you got to file a complaint.
[16:24.830 --> 16:41.740]  [SPEAKER_05]: Or the other possibility is at $1 a month to residence customers, $2 for business customers, you know, they'll charge you for this, who complete a self-certification form, including a sworn statement that disclosure of their telephone number may jeopardize their personal safety.
[16:42.330 --> 16:55.240]  [SPEAKER_05]: The customer's sworn statement may be made in front of any notary public, judge, justice of the peace, attorney admitted to the Connecticut bar, or other person authorized to administer an oath pursuant to the general statutes of Connecticut.
[16:56.480 --> 17:01.330]  [SPEAKER_05]: There will be no initial service establishment charge for customers who are charged monthly for per-line blocking.
[17:01.520 --> 17:10.040]  [SPEAKER_05]: Residents customers who have per-line blocking removed and then returned to the option will pay a $14.20 service establishment charge and words to that effect.
[17:10.120 --> 17:11.040]  [SPEAKER_05]: But this is outrageous.
[17:11.210 --> 17:22.440]  [SPEAKER_05]: This is something that people of Connecticut should be very upset about, having to qualify for privacy, having to qualify for not sending your number with each and every phone call that you make.
[17:23.140 --> 17:24.240]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's simply outrageous.
[17:24.440 --> 17:28.240]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's none of the phone company's business why you don't want to send your phone number.
[17:28.260 --> 17:31.760]  [SPEAKER_05]: If you don't want to do it, you shouldn't have to play this stupid game.
[17:32.820 --> 17:35.280]  [SPEAKER_05]: So, uh, that's SNET for you.
[17:36.100 --> 17:38.060]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'll tell you, they'd never get away with that in New York.
[17:38.520 --> 17:50.440]  [SPEAKER_05]: Those of you in Connecticut, uh, might be time to start making some, uh, angry phone calls and writing some angry letters and talking to your congressman and getting this change because, uh, that's something I cannot believe.
[17:50.440 --> 17:55.760]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's the worst I've ever heard of, of, of the states that even offer per-line blocking.
[17:57.500 --> 18:02.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, one more, uh, news item and then we'll get on with the, uh, rest of the program.
[18:03.580 --> 18:11.100]  [SPEAKER_05]: AT&T has announced a high-power all-digital cordless phone with four times the range of today's conventional cordless telephones.
[18:11.100 --> 18:26.400]  [SPEAKER_05]: The AT&T extended range cordless telephone 9530 operates in the 900 MHz frequency, providing virtually interference-free conversations with consistent sound quality up to one mile from the base.
[18:27.000 --> 18:45.280]  [SPEAKER_05]: The AT&T 9530 uses full digital transmission to encode speech onto a radio signal, much like music is encoded onto a CD, and to provide clearer sound over a longer range than cordless phones operating in the 46 to 49 MHz frequency.
[18:45.500 --> 18:53.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: And by the way, those of you with scanners, it is legal to listen to 46, uh, through 49 MHz and listen to cordless phones.
[18:53.880 --> 18:59.020]  [SPEAKER_05]: It is not legal, however, to listen around the 800 MHz area and listen to cellular phones.
[18:59.360 --> 19:03.220]  [SPEAKER_05]: I shouldn't have to explain this to you, but it's true.
[19:04.340 --> 19:05.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: Cordless phones are legal.
[19:06.140 --> 19:07.580]  [SPEAKER_05]: Cellular phones are not.
[19:08.000 --> 19:09.100]  [SPEAKER_05]: You may not listen to them.
[19:09.380 --> 19:10.140]  [SPEAKER_05]: You can listen to the former.
[19:10.740 --> 19:22.680]  [SPEAKER_05]: AT&T's spread-spectrum frequency hopping architecture, which is patent-pending, actually avoids interference by hopping the radio signal among 50 of the available 173 channels during a conversation.
[19:23.080 --> 19:29.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: If, uh, any of the channels experience interference, the 9530 automatically swaps it for a new, clearer channel.
[19:29.960 --> 19:43.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, because it operates over a different frequency, the AT&T 9530 is unaffected by forms of interference common to 46 to 49 MHz cordless phones, such as garage door openers, baby monitors, and radio intercoms.
[19:44.200 --> 19:51.780]  [SPEAKER_05]: It also performs well in environments typically difficult for conventional cordless, such as high-rise apartment and multi-level buildings.
[19:52.260 --> 20:00.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: The, uh, random selection of 50 of 173 channels, along with digital speech encoding, makes it nearly impossible to eavesdrop on conversations.
[20:01.380 --> 20:04.740]  [SPEAKER_05]: But, if we find the way, we'll let you know.
[20:16.120 --> 20:18.840]  [SPEAKER_10]: Operator, can you help me?
[20:19.240 --> 20:21.060]  [SPEAKER_10]: Help me if you please.
[20:22.180 --> 20:28.560]  [SPEAKER_10]: Give me the right area code and the number that I need.
[20:29.500 --> 20:35.800]  [SPEAKER_10]: My rider left up on the midnight clock, singing like a summer breeze.
[20:38.420 --> 20:44.920]  [SPEAKER_10]: I think you'll see somewhere down south, down about Baton Rouge.
[20:45.920 --> 20:52.300]  [SPEAKER_10]: But I just can't remember no number, a number I can use.
[20:53.400 --> 20:57.100]  [SPEAKER_10]: Direct we don't have it, sent what done for God.
[20:57.500 --> 20:59.660]  [SPEAKER_10]: God will find the number to use.
[21:08.120 --> 21:14.620]  [SPEAKER_10]: Trying to check out a number, trying to run down a line.
[21:15.880 --> 21:21.720]  [SPEAKER_10]: Operator says that's privileged information, and it ain't no business of mine.
[21:22.640 --> 21:29.120]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's flooding down in Texas, the poles are out in Utah, got to find a private line.
[21:31.920 --> 21:38.700]  [SPEAKER_10]: You could be hanging around a steel mill, working in a house with blue lights.
[21:39.800 --> 21:45.760]  [SPEAKER_10]: Riding a getaway bus out of Portland, talking to the night.
[21:46.240 --> 21:50.260]  [SPEAKER_10]: I don't know where she's going, I don't care where she's been.
[21:50.800 --> 21:53.200]  [SPEAKER_10]: As long as we've been doing it right.
[22:20.260 --> 22:22.560]  [SPEAKER_10]: As long as we've been doing it right.
[22:23.980 --> 22:29.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: And this is Off the Hook, where we try to do it right, but we might make a mistake occasionally, I suppose.
[22:29.860 --> 22:34.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: We have Steve Jackson with us on the telephone, speaking to us from Austin, Texas.
[22:34.880 --> 22:35.440]  [SPEAKER_05]: Steve, are you there?
[22:35.440 --> 22:36.260]  [SPEAKER_05]: Still here.
[22:36.400 --> 22:37.100]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, great.
[22:37.840 --> 22:42.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now, you've been going through some rather interesting periods over the past few weeks.
[22:42.980 --> 22:49.180]  [SPEAKER_05]: You've taken the Secret Service to court, and last week, for three days, there was a trial in Austin.
[22:49.460 --> 22:52.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: The trial is over, however, the verdict has not yet come in.
[22:52.700 --> 22:58.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: Perhaps you could, first of all, tell us what the trial was about, and then perhaps go over it on a day-by-day basis.
[22:59.160 --> 23:06.760]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, the basic reason for the trial comes down to the government doesn't understand anything about computers.
[23:07.340 --> 23:10.500]  [SPEAKER_11]: And just listening to your news report, I put two and two together.
[23:10.620 --> 23:11.600]  [SPEAKER_11]: I think I know why now.
[23:12.400 --> 23:16.220]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay, you said there were 65 different phone systems in the White House, right?
[23:16.440 --> 23:17.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: 65, that's right.
[23:17.660 --> 23:20.540]  [SPEAKER_11]: And telephones cause brain damage?
[23:21.880 --> 23:23.140]  [SPEAKER_05]: Certain ones more than others.
[23:23.480 --> 23:24.720]  [SPEAKER_11]: I see it all now.
[23:24.880 --> 23:25.560]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's so clear.
[23:25.560 --> 23:26.740]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay.
[23:27.080 --> 23:50.140]  [SPEAKER_11]: No, the problem basically is that the Secret Service, which just fairly recently got authority, just in the last few years, got authority to conduct investigations of what they lumped together as computer crime, as of 1990, and apparently as of 1993, still doesn't really understand the technology that they're dealing with,
[23:50.740 --> 23:57.720]  [SPEAKER_11]: and thinks that because they're the Secret Service, they don't have to pay all that much attention to the laws or the Constitution.
[23:58.220 --> 24:17.240]  [SPEAKER_11]: We found out just how bad that was in the trial when, on the stand, both the Secret Service agents who we had up there separately admitted that they, at the time of the raid, had never heard of the PPA, the Privacy Protection Act.
[24:17.240 --> 24:24.620]  [SPEAKER_11]: That this is an act that limits and regulates some kinds of government searches.
[24:24.960 --> 24:26.660]  [SPEAKER_11]: They had never heard of it.
[24:26.840 --> 24:39.360]  [SPEAKER_11]: It wasn't that they had heard about it and decided to ignore it this time, or to put the best face on it, that they had heard about it and thought about it and decided it didn't apply.
[24:39.360 --> 24:41.960]  [SPEAKER_11]: No, they had never been trained in the PPA.
[24:43.160 --> 24:49.020]  [SPEAKER_05]: And you, as a publisher, were entitled to certain special considerations, right?
[24:49.240 --> 24:51.460]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yes, and it's not just a publisher.
[24:51.620 --> 24:53.800]  [SPEAKER_11]: The PPA is more broadly worded than that.
[24:54.260 --> 25:05.680]  [SPEAKER_11]: Anyone who possesses work product that they have created with the purpose to distribute information to the public is protected under the PPA.
[25:05.680 --> 25:12.380]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's a very broad information-gatherer and news-gatherer shield law.
[25:12.380 --> 25:18.740]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's a very broad interpretation of the First Amendment.
[25:19.320 --> 25:23.200]  [SPEAKER_11]: And the government in the trial has tried to narrow it.
[25:23.200 --> 25:41.040]  [SPEAKER_11]: They argued that, regardless of what it says, and the words are clear, that regardless of what it says, it was really only intended to apply to newspapers, radio stations, maybe, maybe, maybe book publishers.
[25:41.300 --> 25:46.000]  [SPEAKER_11]: But then they turned around and said, oh, Jackson's not a book publisher, which is false.
[25:47.000 --> 25:52.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, they're really trying to narrow their definitions to what it is that they can understand in a narrow view.
[25:53.620 --> 25:54.020]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now...
[25:54.020 --> 25:56.220]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, I don't think it has to do with understanding.
[25:56.460 --> 25:57.980]  [SPEAKER_11]: I mean, these people are not idiots.
[25:58.240 --> 25:59.980]  [SPEAKER_11]: They may be ignorant, but they're not idiots.
[26:00.900 --> 26:02.580]  [SPEAKER_11]: They understand that they're in trouble.
[26:02.700 --> 26:05.200]  [SPEAKER_11]: They understand that there's a law that limits what they can do.
[26:05.460 --> 26:07.460]  [SPEAKER_11]: They, in turn, would like to limit that law.
[26:07.700 --> 26:08.540]  [SPEAKER_11]: That's not stupid.
[26:08.540 --> 26:09.200]  [SPEAKER_11]: That's smart.
[26:09.440 --> 26:10.500]  [SPEAKER_11]: But we have to stop them.
[26:11.320 --> 26:14.780]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now, the raid took place in the spring of 1990.
[26:15.300 --> 26:15.760]  [SPEAKER_11]: That's right.
[26:15.920 --> 26:17.260]  [SPEAKER_11]: March 1st, 1990.
[26:17.720 --> 26:20.040]  [SPEAKER_05]: So it's been almost three years to the day.
[26:20.140 --> 26:21.240]  [SPEAKER_11]: Very close to three years.
[26:21.380 --> 26:21.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[26:22.880 --> 26:28.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now, it was basically because somebody was working for you that was considered to be a hacker?
[26:28.700 --> 26:34.820]  [SPEAKER_11]: One of my staff was an object of investigation by the Secret Service.
[26:34.820 --> 26:43.740]  [SPEAKER_11]: They raided his home and with no more connection than, well, you know, he works for Jackson.
[26:44.800 --> 26:48.000]  [SPEAKER_11]: You know, we think he uses a bulletin board at Jackson's office.
[26:48.640 --> 26:50.140]  [SPEAKER_11]: They raided the office, too.
[26:50.480 --> 26:55.280]  [SPEAKER_05]: And in so doing, they nearly caused Steve Jackson games to go out of business.
[26:55.520 --> 26:55.840]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yes.
[26:56.040 --> 27:00.180]  [SPEAKER_11]: They took three computers and a lot of other equipment.
[27:00.180 --> 27:03.460]  [SPEAKER_11]: They took more than 300 floppies.
[27:03.560 --> 27:06.740]  [SPEAKER_11]: They took a couple of unmounted hard disks with data in them.
[27:08.040 --> 27:09.480]  [SPEAKER_11]: And they kept it.
[27:10.020 --> 27:10.340]  [SPEAKER_13]: Uh-huh.
[27:11.180 --> 27:17.440]  [SPEAKER_11]: We got back, I think, nine files the day after the raid, copies of those files.
[27:17.440 --> 27:27.860]  [SPEAKER_11]: We got back about nine disks worth of files, random and not very relevant, uh, after three weeks of bagging.
[27:28.340 --> 27:32.640]  [SPEAKER_11]: The rest of the stuff, we did not get back for months and months.
[27:32.920 --> 27:37.320]  [SPEAKER_11]: And indeed, one of the hard disks and a little bit of the other stuff, we never got back at all.
[27:37.500 --> 27:41.960]  [SPEAKER_11]: And one of the computers was damaged to the point of uselessness when it was returned.
[27:41.960 --> 27:46.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: So at what point did you, uh, decide to take action and how did you go about doing that?
[27:46.480 --> 27:52.420]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, I decided to take action as soon as the Electronic Frontier Foundation, uh, let me know that it was willing to support me.
[27:52.940 --> 27:59.100]  [SPEAKER_11]: Um, just, uh, within about a week after the raid, I realized that they weren't dealing with me in, in good faith.
[27:59.320 --> 28:10.820]  [SPEAKER_11]: And at that point, I started, you know, doing everything that I could to tell my story, to find allies, to, to excite outrage in, in people or organizations.
[28:11.360 --> 28:17.620]  [SPEAKER_11]: But in 1990, it was very hard to find anybody who even understood the issue, let alone was willing to deal with it.
[28:17.960 --> 28:19.980]  [SPEAKER_11]: I was, I was fortunate.
[28:20.340 --> 28:31.300]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, a few people did understand the issue and started raising hell, you know, right along with me, with, with access to more ears than I had.
[28:31.300 --> 28:43.540]  [SPEAKER_11]: And Bruce Sterling, the science fiction writer, who also lives in Austin, read the reports of what had happened to me and became both incensed and, he's quite frank about it, frightened that he would be next.
[28:43.580 --> 28:48.880]  [SPEAKER_11]: If they're raiding people who write about cyberpunk, uh, you know, he'd be right up there on the list.
[28:49.580 --> 28:56.800]  [SPEAKER_11]: Michael Godwin, who is now the, uh, the general counsel for the Electronic Frontier Foundation, was at that time no such thing.
[28:56.800 --> 29:02.900]  [SPEAKER_11]: He was a BBS surfer here in Austin, who, uh, knew about it, thought it was outrageous.
[29:04.160 --> 29:07.100]  [SPEAKER_11]: And, this is kind of funny, uh, but quite true.
[29:07.280 --> 29:15.820]  [SPEAKER_11]: Someone commented on a BBS he frequented that, oh, the reason the media hadn't picked it up is because they are afraid of BBS as they'd like to see them all put out of business.
[29:16.500 --> 29:19.900]  [SPEAKER_11]: And Godwin says, nonsense, they haven't picked it up because they don't understand the story.
[29:20.640 --> 29:25.360]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, the argument went back and forth a while, and Godwin says, okay, well, here, I'll show you.
[29:25.420 --> 29:26.380]  [SPEAKER_11]: I'll get him to pick up the story.
[29:26.480 --> 29:28.420]  [SPEAKER_11]: You just have to explain it to him slowly.
[29:29.440 --> 29:34.860]  [SPEAKER_11]: And just to prove his point in the argument, he explained it to him slowly, and they ran the story.
[29:35.740 --> 29:37.240]  [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, that's, that's what you gotta do.
[29:37.540 --> 29:37.780]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[29:39.220 --> 29:44.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now, the, um, the actual trial started, uh, a week ago yesterday.
[29:44.980 --> 29:46.100]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's right, on 26th.
[29:46.180 --> 29:46.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: Last Tuesday.
[29:46.660 --> 29:49.740]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, do you want to describe how it, how it came about?
[29:49.820 --> 29:50.600]  [SPEAKER_05]: What, what unfolded?
[29:51.020 --> 29:53.960]  [SPEAKER_11]: Oh, well, it, it was very interesting.
[29:54.480 --> 29:57.720]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, the, you know, we were, we were the prosecution.
[29:57.980 --> 29:59.140]  [SPEAKER_11]: We were the ones filing suit.
[29:59.840 --> 30:07.340]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, our attorneys, uh, started out by putting on the stand, uh, some of the people who had participated in the raid.
[30:07.540 --> 30:15.140]  [SPEAKER_11]: That was when we got the admission from the Secret Service agents that, well, no, they didn't really know anything about the Privacy Protection Act.
[30:15.140 --> 30:16.520]  [SPEAKER_11]: They'd never heard about it at the time.
[30:17.500 --> 30:18.440]  [SPEAKER_11]: No, no, they didn't.
[30:18.960 --> 30:19.660]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, okay.
[30:19.980 --> 30:27.960]  [SPEAKER_11]: Another of the laws that they violated, we contend, was the ECPA, the, uh, Electronic Communications Protection Act.
[30:28.740 --> 30:35.660]  [SPEAKER_11]: Um, also called the Wiretap Act, which regulates what they can do to intercept an electronic message.
[30:35.660 --> 30:50.920]  [SPEAKER_11]: Now, you would think that, uh, if you carry away a bulletin board system, which they did, they carried away our BBS, you'd think that if they physically turn off and walk off with a functioning BBS, they just might have intercepted some electronic mail,
[30:51.040 --> 30:51.180]  [SPEAKER_11]: right?
[30:52.320 --> 30:53.220]  [SPEAKER_05]: I think so.
[30:53.500 --> 30:54.660]  [SPEAKER_11]: You might say that.
[30:54.980 --> 30:57.060]  [SPEAKER_11]: They, they contend that that's not true.
[30:57.280 --> 30:58.780]  [SPEAKER_11]: They say that that's not interception.
[30:59.940 --> 31:03.660]  [SPEAKER_11]: And that's one of the things that the judge is going to have to decide.
[31:03.840 --> 31:09.680]  [SPEAKER_11]: Because the fact is, no judge has ever ruled on what interception means in the ECPA.
[31:11.880 --> 31:17.660]  [SPEAKER_11]: The government is trying to reduce their liability by saying, no, it's not interception if you pick it up and carry it away.
[31:17.860 --> 31:20.320]  [SPEAKER_11]: That's just a stored message, and that's no big deal.
[31:20.780 --> 31:24.200]  [SPEAKER_11]: Um, so, we'll see what happens.
[31:24.760 --> 31:29.320]  [SPEAKER_05]: So, uh, I mean, we're talking about a difference in definitions there.
[31:29.480 --> 31:33.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: They, they say interception is simply when they're, I suppose, online monitoring.
[31:34.140 --> 31:35.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: Is that, is that what they consider to be interception?
[31:35.680 --> 31:37.020]  [SPEAKER_11]: That's the position they took here.
[31:37.020 --> 31:37.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh-huh.
[31:37.560 --> 31:41.200]  [SPEAKER_05]: So, therefore, because they, they took the whole computer, that's, that's not considered interception.
[31:41.420 --> 31:41.640]  [SPEAKER_11]: Right.
[31:42.420 --> 31:44.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, how did the judge react to all this?
[31:45.140 --> 31:49.940]  [SPEAKER_11]: Um, well, he made them repeat their position several times just to make sure he heard what they were really saying.
[31:50.940 --> 31:57.140]  [SPEAKER_11]: So, the, the, the interesting, the interesting reactions from the judge didn't come out until the last day.
[31:57.640 --> 32:01.540]  [SPEAKER_11]: Now, we have to make it clear here that the judge we were in front of is not a technical man.
[32:01.660 --> 32:02.760]  [SPEAKER_11]: He's not a computer man.
[32:03.280 --> 32:08.700]  [SPEAKER_11]: But it was obvious from his questions very early on that he was really smart and really paying attention.
[32:08.900 --> 32:09.960]  [SPEAKER_11]: He asked good questions.
[32:10.380 --> 32:15.680]  [SPEAKER_11]: They, they were naive questions in the beginning, but they were never stupid questions.
[32:16.120 --> 32:16.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[32:16.780 --> 32:22.940]  [SPEAKER_11]: And by, by the third day, you know, he, he had, he had picked up enough.
[32:23.160 --> 32:26.080]  [SPEAKER_11]: I mean, he was, he was up to speed.
[32:26.080 --> 32:27.620]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, I was impressed.
[32:27.920 --> 32:28.420]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, I was impressed.
[32:28.420 --> 32:40.000]  [SPEAKER_11]: And on the third day, uh, when the defense brought Agent Foley back on the stand, um, he took over the questioning from our attorney and he started asking very pointed questions.
[32:40.640 --> 32:47.200]  [SPEAKER_11]: Um, just, at, it, it was very dramatic the way it happened.
[32:47.580 --> 33:02.320]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, uh, our attorney, Pete Kennedy, had just asked, asked Foley essentially, now, isn't it true that you, you took all this stuff and you, and you kept it, you know, for months and months after, after you had finished your investigation of it?
[33:03.080 --> 33:05.740]  [SPEAKER_11]: And Foley says, yes.
[33:07.140 --> 33:11.140]  [SPEAKER_11]: And the judge held up his hand to stop Pete from asking another question.
[33:12.460 --> 33:14.280]  [SPEAKER_11]: And he leaned back in his chair.
[33:14.740 --> 33:19.980]  [SPEAKER_11]: And he turned his chair to face the Secret Service agent there on the witness stand.
[33:21.500 --> 33:26.780]  [SPEAKER_11]: And he leaned forward, and he said, why?
[33:29.280 --> 33:31.560]  [SPEAKER_11]: Why did you keep that that long?
[33:33.220 --> 33:36.680]  [SPEAKER_11]: And, uh, like I said, then he just took over the questioning.
[33:36.920 --> 33:41.260]  [SPEAKER_11]: He, he wanted an explanation, and it was very clear that there was no good explanation.
[33:41.540 --> 33:42.460]  [SPEAKER_11]: He was outraged.
[33:42.900 --> 33:53.800]  [SPEAKER_11]: He was, I mean, it, his, his outrage was as a citizen rather than as a jurist, because the law, the law doesn't exist there yet in solid form until he decides it.
[33:54.380 --> 33:59.100]  [SPEAKER_11]: And he could turn in a verdict tomorrow and say that under the law, they get away with it.
[33:59.100 --> 34:02.680]  [SPEAKER_11]: And I hope they don't, but, uh, you know, he could do that.
[34:02.840 --> 34:05.420]  [SPEAKER_11]: But, uh, but he was an unhappy man as a citizen.
[34:05.880 --> 34:09.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, uh, you think that, that, that outrage was genuine?
[34:10.060 --> 34:11.220]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yes, very much so.
[34:11.560 --> 34:15.020]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, what, what kind of things did he say to the, uh, to the Secret Service?
[34:15.560 --> 34:26.280]  [SPEAKER_11]: Oh, at one point he, he asked him if, uh, if it had ever occurred to him that I, or that my company might be damaged by the raid.
[34:26.660 --> 34:28.420]  [SPEAKER_11]: And Foley answered, well, no.
[34:29.180 --> 34:30.880]  [SPEAKER_11]: And the judge said, yes, you did.
[34:31.080 --> 34:33.040]  [SPEAKER_11]: You just didn't think you'd hire a lawyer and sue you.
[34:35.280 --> 34:37.180]  [SPEAKER_05]: How, how did Foley react to that?
[34:39.200 --> 34:44.600]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, he didn't break down crying on the sand or anything, but he was, he was white-faced and unhappy.
[34:44.940 --> 34:47.020]  [SPEAKER_11]: He would be too if this judge chewed you out.
[34:47.300 --> 34:47.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh huh.
[34:47.740 --> 34:50.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: I heard that, that chewing out lasted a good 15 minutes.
[34:50.860 --> 34:51.000]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[34:52.220 --> 34:54.140]  [SPEAKER_11]: Probably seemed like longer from up there.
[34:54.320 --> 34:57.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: And was Foley the only one to, to receive all that?
[34:57.380 --> 35:03.660]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yes, uh, if they had plans to call other defense witnesses, they dropped them.
[35:04.060 --> 35:04.760]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh huh.
[35:04.900 --> 35:07.180]  [SPEAKER_11]: After Foley had gotten, gotten his talking to.
[35:07.200 --> 35:11.440]  [SPEAKER_05]: The, the government pretty much dropped, uh, dropped any further defense at that point.
[35:11.680 --> 35:17.340]  [SPEAKER_11]: No, but they, they relied on legal arguments rather than bringing up witnesses.
[35:17.740 --> 35:19.480]  [SPEAKER_11]: But they're still fighting very hard.
[35:19.680 --> 35:23.420]  [SPEAKER_11]: The Justice Department's attorney is, is smart and he's technical.
[35:23.900 --> 35:24.380]  [SPEAKER_13]: Uh huh.
[35:24.380 --> 35:27.520]  [SPEAKER_11]: He, he understands the facts, he understands the issues.
[35:28.440 --> 35:31.260]  [SPEAKER_11]: And, uh, he's, he did a good job.
[35:31.960 --> 35:32.100]  [SPEAKER_11]: So.
[35:32.760 --> 35:35.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now, they, they put you on the stand too, is that correct?
[35:35.640 --> 35:35.740]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
[35:35.920 --> 35:37.480]  [SPEAKER_11]: I spent a lot of time up there.
[35:37.620 --> 35:39.320]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, what kind of things, uh, were you asked?
[35:40.360 --> 35:44.900]  [SPEAKER_11]: Um, mostly about the operation of the company and about the operation of the bulletin board.
[35:45.120 --> 35:49.260]  [SPEAKER_11]: We had actually set up the Illuminati BBS in the courtroom.
[35:49.260 --> 35:55.640]  [SPEAKER_11]: We took the backups that we, we, we got off the BBS machine when it finally got back.
[35:55.800 --> 35:59.220]  [SPEAKER_11]: And we restored those on a system in the courtroom.
[36:00.120 --> 36:02.060]  [SPEAKER_11]: And did a demonstration for the judge.
[36:09.700 --> 36:11.460]  [SPEAKER_13]: And walked through some of the sections.
[36:13.180 --> 36:15.500]  [SPEAKER_05]: And did he, did he understand what you were talking about?
[36:15.500 --> 36:16.400]  [SPEAKER_11]: I think so.
[36:16.540 --> 36:17.540]  [SPEAKER_11]: I couldn't see his face.
[36:17.540 --> 36:18.580]  [SPEAKER_11]: I was looking at the screen.
[36:18.760 --> 36:22.080]  [SPEAKER_11]: But the people who were watching said that he seemed fascinated.
[36:22.540 --> 36:22.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh huh.
[36:23.020 --> 36:26.240]  [SPEAKER_11]: And it, again, you know, he, he asked good questions.
[36:27.160 --> 36:27.440]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh huh.
[36:27.800 --> 36:31.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now, were you cross-examined, uh, in a particularly hostile way, or?
[36:31.660 --> 36:38.420]  [SPEAKER_11]: I wouldn't say hostile, uh, very, very, very polite, really, but very direct.
[36:38.720 --> 36:44.780]  [SPEAKER_11]: Almost all of the cross-examination was an attempt to show that, well, the raid didn't really hurt me that much.
[36:45.520 --> 36:52.600]  [SPEAKER_11]: As a matter of fact, they started on a line of arguments, um, that, well, I'd really gotten a lot of publicity out of it, hadn't I?
[36:52.600 --> 37:00.280]  [SPEAKER_11]: And the judge broke in and asked the, the defense attorney if he was, if he was going to argue that I had been helped by the raid.
[37:00.280 --> 37:04.180]  [SPEAKER_11]: And the defense attorney said, well, and he changed, changed his line of questioning.
[37:04.900 --> 37:05.260]  [SPEAKER_05]: Interesting.
[37:06.000 --> 37:15.840]  [SPEAKER_11]: But it, it appeared that their real line of defense was, was on damages rather than on, on the law and the facts.
[37:16.820 --> 37:26.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: So, uh, it, it seems pretty much a foregone conclusion that, uh, that you'll be, uh, vindicated here, but the question is really how much damages you'll be entitled to?
[37:26.680 --> 37:29.280]  [SPEAKER_11]: I'm, I'm afraid to say foregone conclusion.
[37:29.820 --> 37:37.000]  [SPEAKER_11]: Um, but, it, it, it looked as though the other side thought it was likelier than not that, that, that we'd win.
[37:37.220 --> 37:40.120]  [SPEAKER_11]: And they just, they just wanted to limit their cash exposure.
[37:40.400 --> 37:40.680]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh huh.
[37:40.680 --> 37:44.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now, one thing that's been, uh, flying around, that seems a bit disturbing.
[37:44.820 --> 37:54.580]  [SPEAKER_05]: And that seems to be the impression that that, uh, that infamous 911 document was actually worth the $80,000 that, uh, that it was claimed at the very beginning.
[37:55.020 --> 37:58.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, how, how could that have, uh, have gone unchallenged?
[37:59.500 --> 38:02.740]  [SPEAKER_11]: Um, in federal court, you don't have very much time.
[38:03.640 --> 38:07.160]  [SPEAKER_11]: Um, we, we were told at the beginning we'd have three days.
[38:07.160 --> 38:10.880]  [SPEAKER_11]: And what, with one thing and another, it was, uh, more like two in a fraction.
[38:12.040 --> 38:22.280]  [SPEAKER_11]: The, the decision was made, and I, I, I didn't agree with it, but, uh, the, the decision was made not to, not to direct much argument to that.
[38:22.280 --> 38:32.660]  [SPEAKER_11]: When the phone company man sat, sat down in the chair and, and continued to insist that it was, was worth all this money and so on and so forth.
[38:33.760 --> 38:37.560]  [SPEAKER_11]: Um, it, it, it might have been possible to put something up against that.
[38:38.460 --> 38:39.640]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now, who, who was it?
[38:39.800 --> 38:46.680]  [SPEAKER_11]: In this case, it shouldn't matter if that was worth $79,000 or $79 cents or seven, $79 million.
[38:47.160 --> 38:50.080]  [SPEAKER_11]: It shouldn't matter because it wasn't on our system.
[38:50.080 --> 38:51.820]  [SPEAKER_11]: Nobody ever said it was on our system.
[38:52.080 --> 38:58.040]  [SPEAKER_11]: And if it had been, which it wasn't, they didn't have any evidence that it was at the time they came in.
[38:58.140 --> 39:00.020]  [SPEAKER_11]: They were just going on wild, crazy guests.
[39:00.420 --> 39:00.780]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh-huh.
[39:00.840 --> 39:05.780]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, the reason I'm concerned with that document is because it affects a lot of other cases as well.
[39:06.140 --> 39:07.760]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, it affects a lot of people.
[39:07.940 --> 39:16.200]  [SPEAKER_11]: I think the lesson we learned from that is never again get overconfident and take for granted that it's been legally proven.
[39:16.200 --> 39:18.640]  [SPEAKER_11]: Because the fact is it hasn't been legally proven.
[39:19.120 --> 39:33.380]  [SPEAKER_11]: The Neidorf case, which is where all of the bad testimony came out, ended with the government caving in their case rather than with the judge bringing down the hammer and saying, go on, you guys, it's worth 13 bucks.
[39:33.940 --> 39:34.360]  [SPEAKER_13]: Uh-huh.
[39:34.580 --> 39:40.420]  [SPEAKER_11]: And at that case, there was an expert witness to show that it wasn't worth all that much.
[39:40.600 --> 39:48.480]  [SPEAKER_11]: There were several phone company employees on the stand, including one who just cracked under cross-examination and admitted in front of the judge that, no, you could get it elsewhere.
[39:48.480 --> 39:55.500]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now, with that admission on record, would it not be considered some form of perjury to continue to claim that it's $80,000?
[39:56.160 --> 39:59.800]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's not perjury if you contradict somebody else's testimony.
[40:00.100 --> 40:00.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh-huh.
[40:00.560 --> 40:14.000]  [SPEAKER_11]: Now, it's interesting to speculate whether some of the things that the phone company man said at this trial could be proved factually wrong and it could be proved that he knows they're factually wrong.
[40:14.440 --> 40:17.460]  [SPEAKER_11]: Um, this guy got up and blew a lot of smoke.
[40:18.800 --> 40:20.240]  [SPEAKER_05]: And did the judge fall for that?
[40:23.570 --> 40:32.590]  [SPEAKER_11]: The way he phrased it, I don't think that he did, but he didn't have anything solidly in the record to prove otherwise.
[40:32.590 --> 40:38.970]  [SPEAKER_11]: He said things like, the only testimony we have is that it's a confidential document, so on and so forth.
[40:39.250 --> 40:40.630]  [SPEAKER_11]: Now, you can take that two ways.
[40:40.750 --> 40:44.210]  [SPEAKER_11]: You can take that as he believed it, or you can take it as I proved to take it.
[40:44.210 --> 40:50.890]  [SPEAKER_11]: That he didn't believe that witness at all, but was pointing out that we had not put up a good counter to it.
[40:51.430 --> 40:59.530]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now, was it mentioned at any point that, uh, I don't want to stay with the document for too long, but the fact of the matter is it was printed in Bruce Sterling's book in its entirety.
[40:59.910 --> 41:03.870]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now, if that's really worth $80,000, that's a heck of a lot of value.
[41:03.870 --> 41:09.950]  [SPEAKER_11]: That was never brought up, and perhaps it should have been, but consider that, you know, when the book came out.
[41:11.070 --> 41:18.850]  [SPEAKER_11]: Um, something that was blown to the public in late 1992 might still have been proprietary.
[41:18.850 --> 41:22.310]  [SPEAKER_11]: I mean, that doesn't prove it wasn't proprietary in 1990.
[41:23.310 --> 41:24.030]  [SPEAKER_13]: Uh-huh.
[41:28.310 --> 41:32.970]  [SPEAKER_05]: All right, so now, the trial ended last, uh, last Thursday, I believe.
[41:33.110 --> 41:33.390]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's right.
[41:34.270 --> 41:35.070]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, uh...
[41:35.070 --> 41:35.750]  [SPEAKER_05]: And now we wait.
[41:35.990 --> 41:37.490]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, how long do we wait for?
[41:37.570 --> 41:38.630]  [SPEAKER_05]: This is not a jury trial.
[41:38.770 --> 41:39.410]  [SPEAKER_05]: This is, uh...
[41:39.410 --> 41:40.470]  [SPEAKER_11]: Right, this was a bench trial.
[41:40.710 --> 41:43.430]  [SPEAKER_11]: The judge will take as much time as he thinks he needs.
[41:44.050 --> 41:47.010]  [SPEAKER_11]: Um, he obviously knows it's an important case.
[41:47.110 --> 41:49.930]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's possible that he's going to hand down a written decision.
[41:50.510 --> 41:52.430]  [SPEAKER_11]: Um, you know, he'll...
[41:52.430 --> 41:53.930]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, what does that mean, a written decision?
[41:54.210 --> 41:57.910]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, the judge does not have to hand down a written decision at all.
[41:58.130 --> 42:02.950]  [SPEAKER_11]: The judge can just say, okay, here's what I decide.
[42:03.570 --> 42:13.910]  [SPEAKER_11]: Um, without, without submitting a written memorandum of, of, exactly what he thinks the law is, and how, how he thinks it might have been broken or not broken.
[42:15.350 --> 42:18.890]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, and quite often, in fact, that's what happens.
[42:21.250 --> 42:27.510]  [SPEAKER_11]: But, when a case is important, a judge may, may write up his decision.
[42:27.650 --> 42:30.250]  [SPEAKER_11]: He may even want the decision to be published.
[42:30.510 --> 42:37.410]  [SPEAKER_11]: And at this point, we're getting, we're getting a little bit past, past where I should talk about the technicalities, because I'm not a lawyer.
[42:37.770 --> 42:38.210]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh-huh.
[42:38.210 --> 42:44.270]  [SPEAKER_11]: But, uh, the, the quick answer is that a written decision is good, because that makes it more serious.
[42:44.510 --> 42:50.510]  [SPEAKER_11]: And a published decision is great, because a published decision is a formal definition of the law.
[42:50.670 --> 42:57.850]  [SPEAKER_11]: And after that, uh, the law is what, what the published decision says it is, until a higher court changes it.
[42:57.990 --> 43:01.370]  [SPEAKER_05]: So, with a published decision, this would pretty much be a precedent-setting case.
[43:01.830 --> 43:02.310]  [SPEAKER_11]: Precisely.
[43:02.550 --> 43:02.770]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[43:02.910 --> 43:03.390]  [SPEAKER_11]: Precisely.
[43:03.390 --> 43:07.550]  [SPEAKER_11]: Um, it's not really a precedent, unless you get a written decision.
[43:07.870 --> 43:10.510]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's, it's not a precedent with a capital P. Uh-huh.
[43:11.490 --> 43:12.950]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, generally, how long does it take?
[43:13.130 --> 43:14.130]  [SPEAKER_11]: I have no idea.
[43:14.490 --> 43:16.910]  [SPEAKER_11]: And, uh, the attorneys didn't want to guess.
[43:17.310 --> 43:17.610]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh-huh.
[43:18.170 --> 43:19.610]  [SPEAKER_11]: They said, probably inside a month.
[43:20.990 --> 43:22.550]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, this should be interesting.
[43:22.830 --> 43:26.350]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, it's kind of, kind of weird having to wait after everything has been said, just...
[43:26.350 --> 43:28.470]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, and, uh, I didn't expect that.
[43:28.470 --> 43:34.490]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, just, I guess, the attorneys just assumed that everybody involved with the case knew how that worked.
[43:34.710 --> 43:35.710]  [SPEAKER_11]: I didn't know that.
[43:35.950 --> 43:36.270]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh-huh.
[43:36.570 --> 43:39.130]  [SPEAKER_11]: I didn't know that until the last day of the trial.
[43:39.370 --> 43:41.730]  [SPEAKER_05]: You're expecting a verdict as soon as everything was all over, right?
[43:41.730 --> 43:41.910]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[43:42.090 --> 43:45.990]  [SPEAKER_11]: I can give us an answer.
[43:46.090 --> 43:47.070]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, that's how it works in L.A.
[43:47.110 --> 43:47.630]  [SPEAKER_05]: law, doesn't it?
[43:48.170 --> 43:50.290]  [SPEAKER_05]: But, uh, not in real life, unfortunately.
[43:50.290 --> 43:54.770]  [SPEAKER_05]: We're talking to Steve Jackson of Steve Jackson Games, who, uh, has sued the Secret Service.
[43:54.970 --> 43:56.310]  [SPEAKER_05]: We're waiting for a verdict to come down.
[43:56.550 --> 44:01.270]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, if you have a question for Steve, give us a call at 212-279-3400.
[44:01.570 --> 44:02.650]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, this is off the hook.
[44:02.770 --> 44:04.530]  [SPEAKER_05]: We're on the air for another 15 minutes or so.
[44:05.190 --> 44:11.630]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, uh, Steve, do you have any kind of, uh, special celebration planned if, uh, if, uh, it does come down in your favor?
[44:11.630 --> 44:20.990]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, the EFF in Austin is going to do something March 1st, no matter what, you know, just, just as a, a commemoration of the day of the raid.
[44:22.290 --> 44:28.230]  [SPEAKER_11]: Um, if we have a decision before then, then obviously that'll, that'll affect the kind of commemoration we do.
[44:28.670 --> 44:28.970]  [SPEAKER_13]: Uh-huh.
[44:30.090 --> 44:34.410]  [SPEAKER_11]: Um, I've got something, something off, off this subject.
[44:34.590 --> 44:34.770]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay.
[44:34.850 --> 44:41.030]  [SPEAKER_11]: You asked for comments from callers, and hey, I, I guess I'm a caller and I've got a comment on that, that call ID thing.
[44:41.030 --> 44:41.850]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, go ahead.
[44:42.110 --> 44:49.370]  [SPEAKER_11]: Um, you asked, uh, you asked what kind of, what kind of idiot wouldn't answer his phone if, if the number wasn't displayed.
[44:49.650 --> 44:51.990]  [SPEAKER_11]: Um, you may imagine my hand is being raised.
[44:53.350 --> 44:55.310]  [SPEAKER_11]: If, uh, that was available in Texas.
[44:55.710 --> 44:57.090]  [SPEAKER_11]: Now, business is a different thing.
[44:57.250 --> 44:57.490]  [SPEAKER_11]: Right.
[44:57.490 --> 45:04.610]  [SPEAKER_11]: But if I were at home and I saw a blocked call coming in, hell man, if I could set my phone so it wouldn't even ring, I'd do that.
[45:04.990 --> 45:09.530]  [SPEAKER_11]: I, I don't want any calls at home except from, from...
[45:09.530 --> 45:12.730]  [SPEAKER_05]: You, you wouldn't be the slightest bit curious who would be calling you?
[45:12.890 --> 45:15.790]  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, supposing somebody had a payphone and you don't recognize the number.
[45:16.110 --> 45:21.190]  [SPEAKER_11]: Um, I'd be a lot more likely to pick it up for a number I don't recognize than I would for a blank one.
[45:21.190 --> 45:22.390]  [SPEAKER_13]: Uh-huh.
[45:22.430 --> 45:31.050]  [SPEAKER_11]: If, uh, I mean, my, my take on the privacy issue is that I'm at home and, and it's my business whether I answer or not.
[45:31.370 --> 45:31.510]  [SPEAKER_13]: Uh-huh.
[45:31.530 --> 45:34.590]  [SPEAKER_11]: Now, anybody's got a right to keep their number from going out.
[45:34.790 --> 45:36.130]  [SPEAKER_11]: I don't have any problem with that.
[45:36.290 --> 45:38.590]  [SPEAKER_11]: But I got a right not to answer if I don't feel like it.
[45:38.770 --> 45:42.350]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, well, I don't think anyone has, has ever said that somebody has to answer the phone.
[45:42.350 --> 45:42.750]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[45:42.850 --> 45:52.770]  [SPEAKER_05]: But what I, what I see in the, uh, in the Southern New England telephone case is pretty much that you have to prove that you, you've earned the privilege to not advertise your number every time you make a phone call.
[45:52.910 --> 45:54.570]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I think that's just taking it way too far.
[45:55.410 --> 45:56.090]  [SPEAKER_11]: I agree.
[45:56.230 --> 45:57.270]  [SPEAKER_11]: I think that's obnoxious.
[45:57.450 --> 46:05.990]  [SPEAKER_11]: But I think that, that, that you might be surprised how many people would, would be glad not to answer the phone for a blocked call.
[46:05.990 --> 46:06.610]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh-huh.
[46:06.610 --> 46:09.910]  [SPEAKER_11]: I got a picture of one kind of person who's going to send out blocked calls.
[46:10.190 --> 46:11.950]  [SPEAKER_11]: He's wearing a cheap polyester suit.
[46:12.130 --> 46:14.710]  [SPEAKER_11]: He's got no hair left on the top of his head.
[46:14.850 --> 46:19.110]  [SPEAKER_11]: He's sitting in an office with 40, 11 other people, and they're cranking out the junk calls.
[46:19.390 --> 46:19.710]  [SPEAKER_13]: Uh-huh.
[46:19.790 --> 46:20.570]  [SPEAKER_11]: I get those.
[46:20.790 --> 46:20.910]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah.
[46:20.910 --> 46:21.790]  [SPEAKER_11]: I get those all the time.
[46:23.410 --> 46:29.550]  [SPEAKER_11]: And if I got one and I knew the number, I could call them back and tell them what to do with theirs.
[46:29.610 --> 46:36.770]  [SPEAKER_05]: But you know it's only a matter of time before those same sleazy people figure out a way to, to send out a number that doesn't necessarily get back to them.
[46:37.750 --> 46:39.370]  [SPEAKER_05]: That'll end in a recording or something.
[46:40.230 --> 46:45.510]  [SPEAKER_11]: At that point, they'll probably be committing some kind of an offense and we can let the Secret Service chase them for a while.
[46:45.790 --> 46:47.270]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, we come full circle then.
[46:47.430 --> 46:48.490]  [SPEAKER_11]: They deserve each other.
[46:48.750 --> 46:48.950]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[46:49.130 --> 46:50.890]  [SPEAKER_05]: All right, let's take a couple of phone calls, see who's out there.
[46:51.770 --> 46:53.850]  [SPEAKER_05]: Good evening, you're on the air with Steve Jackson.
[46:54.050 --> 46:54.410]  [SPEAKER_03]: Hi.
[46:54.630 --> 46:55.370]  [SPEAKER_03]: Good evening, Steve.
[46:55.570 --> 46:58.950]  [SPEAKER_03]: I want to wish you the best of luck with your case and I hope you get your business back together.
[46:59.130 --> 46:59.670]  [SPEAKER_11]: Thank you.
[46:59.670 --> 47:05.310]  [SPEAKER_03]: Um, my question is, let's say that the judge does rule in your favor.
[47:05.950 --> 47:07.870]  [SPEAKER_11]: Boy, it would be nice to say that, wouldn't it?
[47:08.690 --> 47:13.070]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, you know, um, I'm, I'm really hoping that that does happen.
[47:13.310 --> 47:32.230]  [SPEAKER_03]: But what I'm, what I'm curious to find out is if the judge does rule in your favor, how will this affect other government agencies, which, um, tend to do a lot of office raiding and, and things like that, say the, the FBI or the Justice Department and on and on?
[47:32.590 --> 47:37.230]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, at a minimum, I bet they start teaching about the PPA and their, their raid schools.
[47:38.610 --> 47:41.330]  [SPEAKER_11]: A lot of it depends on the details of the decision.
[47:41.650 --> 47:46.730]  [SPEAKER_11]: If he tells them that they've been bad and pops them on the wrist, it won't do a lot.
[47:48.030 --> 48:05.730]  [SPEAKER_11]: It'll do something because, I mean, if, if he doesn't, if, if he declares us the winners on both counts and doesn't give me a cent in damages, uh, the statutory legal fees will, will still get into six figures, and that's...
[48:07.170 --> 48:08.430]  [SPEAKER_11]: That's pretty substantial.
[48:08.750 --> 48:11.950]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, that's enough to, to get the attention of a bureaucrat.
[48:12.090 --> 48:13.450]  [SPEAKER_05]: Steve, you, you said on both counts.
[48:13.570 --> 48:14.270]  [SPEAKER_05]: What are the two counts?
[48:14.510 --> 48:25.510]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, the ECPA, um, which is basically walking off with our bulletin board, and the Privacy Protection Act, which is walking off with the manuscript for GERP Cyberpunk.
[48:26.690 --> 48:33.010]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now, do you think what, what you're doing now, the action you've taken, will spur other people to, uh, to do the same kind of thing?
[48:33.070 --> 48:37.010]  [SPEAKER_05]: What would you advise people that might run into the Secret Service in an unpleasant way?
[48:39.070 --> 48:41.270]  [SPEAKER_11]: Take good notes from day one.
[48:42.010 --> 48:44.610]  [SPEAKER_11]: Get, get legal advice on day one.
[48:45.050 --> 48:49.810]  [SPEAKER_11]: Take photographs to document the state of the area after it's been raided.
[48:50.730 --> 48:55.290]  [SPEAKER_11]: And, I mean, contact the Electronic Frontier Foundation immediately and listen to what they say.
[48:55.770 --> 49:00.410]  [SPEAKER_03]: In doing that, um, do they have any right to stop you from taking the photographs?
[49:00.590 --> 49:13.330]  [SPEAKER_03]: I remember Emmanuel had a program a couple of months ago where he was talking about, um, um, the Secret Service raiding a hacker meeting in a mall in Washington, and they began confiscating cameras and so forth.
[49:14.550 --> 49:16.210]  [SPEAKER_03]: Is that the same type of a thing?
[49:16.210 --> 49:26.230]  [SPEAKER_11]: I wouldn't want to speculate on what their legal privileges are to keep you from standing outside your own house or standing across the street and photographing them as they come out.
[49:26.670 --> 49:31.210]  [SPEAKER_11]: But they can't stop you from taking photographs of the area after they leave.
[49:31.210 --> 49:31.690]  [SPEAKER_11]: Right.
[49:31.910 --> 49:32.510]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's, that's true.
[49:32.710 --> 49:38.810]  [SPEAKER_05]: I, I think in many cases, uh, the, uh, Secret Service, uh, won't allow you to do lots of things.
[49:38.930 --> 49:43.630]  [SPEAKER_05]: In fact, Phiber Optik is, is, is here and he's one person that's been visited by the Secret Service a couple of times.
[49:43.730 --> 49:46.930]  [SPEAKER_05]: What happened when they came to, to your place of, uh, residence?
[49:47.190 --> 49:54.050]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, without going into, uh, too many details, it's, uh, let's just say that they were taking pictures of me for, for their files.
[49:54.350 --> 50:07.730]  [SPEAKER_01]: And, uh, I was, uh, pretty much unable to move from the sofa and, uh, they, uh, pretty much made me keep my hands in plain sight and, uh, sort of indirectly threatened to shoot me if I attempted to, uh, to get up and try to go somewhere.
[50:07.870 --> 50:11.250]  [SPEAKER_11]: If you're, yeah, if you're a suspect, they're going to keep you under physical control.
[50:11.510 --> 50:25.950]  [SPEAKER_11]: If you're, if you're like me, a third-party whose property is, is imagined to have evidence in it, they'll take physical control of your building, whether that's your house or your office or whatever, but they won't try to take physical control of you.
[50:26.570 --> 50:31.290]  [SPEAKER_11]: Nobody here tried to photograph them while they were working, so I don't know what would have happened.
[50:31.490 --> 50:32.690]  [SPEAKER_11]: I would like to try it.
[50:32.870 --> 50:36.010]  [SPEAKER_03]: Can they do that even though this is not a criminal matter?
[50:36.710 --> 50:43.370]  [SPEAKER_11]: They did a lot of things that they're not supposed to be able to do, so no offense, but asking can they do that is not the right question.
[50:43.650 --> 50:44.370]  [SPEAKER_03]: Right, I see.
[50:44.730 --> 50:45.830]  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, well, thank you very much.
[50:45.850 --> 50:46.630]  [SPEAKER_03]: I'll hang up and listen.
[50:46.830 --> 50:47.630]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, thanks for calling.
[50:47.810 --> 50:48.010]  [SPEAKER_03]: Bye-bye.
[50:48.310 --> 50:54.830]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, it's, um, it's interesting because you use, Steve, uh, as a, as a bit of evidence one of their videotapes.
[50:54.930 --> 50:55.270]  [SPEAKER_05]: Is that correct?
[50:55.570 --> 50:55.790]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yes.
[50:56.170 --> 51:07.450]  [SPEAKER_11]: Um, their, their video, the audio track of their, their videotape contained, contained things that made a liar out of their agent on the site.
[51:07.990 --> 51:17.890]  [SPEAKER_11]: And you could hear my employees on, on the, the videotape saying things that the agent claimed she'd never heard, you know, up until the videotape was played back.
[51:17.890 --> 51:19.830]  [SPEAKER_05]: And what, what, what were the nature of those things?
[51:20.750 --> 51:28.470]  [SPEAKER_11]: One of my employees, when, when he was asked who he was and what his business was there, said, I'm a print buyer, we're a publisher.
[51:30.910 --> 51:38.130]  [SPEAKER_11]: Which doesn't, doesn't look very good when, when that agent had just testified that nobody told her that we were publishers.
[51:39.130 --> 51:40.930]  [SPEAKER_05]: So a direct contradiction there.
[51:41.150 --> 51:41.390]  [SPEAKER_11]: Right.
[51:41.670 --> 51:44.730]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, uh, and, and right in front of the judge, I guess that...
[51:44.730 --> 51:44.910]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, yeah.
[51:45.050 --> 51:46.570]  [SPEAKER_11]: The term for that is impeaching the witness.
[51:46.570 --> 51:47.530]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh huh.
[51:48.010 --> 52:03.530]  [SPEAKER_11]: You know, there were, just, right, right at the beginning of the testimony, uh, of each Secret Service agent, uh, you know, we, we got, got, got statements out of them, which we then disproved, you know, from physical evidence or from the record.
[52:04.290 --> 52:04.590]  [SPEAKER_13]: Uh huh.
[52:04.670 --> 52:09.450]  [SPEAKER_11]: Which, of course, lets, lets the judge draw his own conclusion about whether he can believe anything else they ever say.
[52:09.450 --> 52:16.110]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm, I'm surprised really that anybody believes what they say in light of, uh, the Neidorf case and, and all the contradictions that came out there.
[52:16.370 --> 52:23.510]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, you have to remember that most of the people in the country still aren't even clear on the fact that the Secret Service does anything but guard the President.
[52:24.130 --> 52:24.390]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh huh.
[52:24.610 --> 52:26.270]  [SPEAKER_11]: Um, let alone that they lie a lot.
[52:26.590 --> 52:27.030]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh huh.
[52:27.030 --> 52:28.950]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, alright, let's take another phone call.
[52:29.030 --> 52:31.330]  [SPEAKER_05]: Our number is 212-279-3400.
[52:31.670 --> 52:33.350]  [SPEAKER_05]: Good evening, you're on with Steve Jackson.
[52:33.610 --> 52:35.190]  [SPEAKER_02]: Good evening, um, I have a question.
[52:35.450 --> 52:43.590]  [SPEAKER_02]: I wasn't able to listen, I was like doing something while, while you were explaining your story, but what attracted the Secret Service in the first place?
[52:43.730 --> 52:44.950]  [SPEAKER_02]: Did somebody make a complaint?
[52:45.870 --> 52:59.630]  [SPEAKER_11]: The Secret Service, uh, was investigating the distribution of a document called the 911 document, which in a cut-down form was published in Phrack, a computer newsletter.
[53:00.030 --> 53:06.590]  [SPEAKER_11]: One of my employees received a copy of Phrack and reposted it on his own BBS.
[53:07.230 --> 53:18.630]  [SPEAKER_11]: So, in the mistaken opinion that this copy of Phrack contained deadly secret valuable information, they raided him, and because he worked for me, they raided me.
[53:18.790 --> 53:19.670]  [SPEAKER_11]: There it is in a nutshell.
[53:20.770 --> 53:22.170]  [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, were they intimidating?
[53:22.990 --> 53:23.630]  [SPEAKER_02]: Extremely.
[53:23.630 --> 53:26.150]  [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, okay, I wish you success.
[53:26.470 --> 53:27.410]  [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you very much.
[53:27.530 --> 53:28.030]  [SPEAKER_05]: Thanks for calling.
[53:28.390 --> 53:33.810]  [SPEAKER_05]: Any time you have, uh, a bunch of people coming into your house with guns, I guess that can be kind of intimidating.
[53:33.910 --> 53:35.570]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, not your house, but your place of business.
[53:36.770 --> 53:43.430]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, did they say anything during the raid that you thought was unnecessary or overly intimidating or anything like that?
[53:43.570 --> 53:50.930]  [SPEAKER_11]: Um, they made intimidating, or they questioned some of my employees in an intimidating way.
[53:50.930 --> 53:54.390]  [SPEAKER_11]: When you're standing there with the gun and saying, what do you do here?
[53:54.690 --> 53:55.010]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh-huh.
[53:55.470 --> 53:56.090]  [SPEAKER_11]: You hesitated.
[53:56.410 --> 53:56.590]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[53:57.010 --> 53:58.150]  [SPEAKER_11]: That's, that's intimidating.
[53:58.430 --> 54:04.910]  [SPEAKER_11]: And they behaved in an intimidating manner toward me the next day when I went in supposedly to get copies of my files.
[54:05.770 --> 54:06.130]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh-huh.
[54:06.130 --> 54:08.130]  [SPEAKER_11]: But, I mean, it's, it's...
[54:08.130 --> 54:08.710]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh-huh.
[54:08.790 --> 54:09.490]  [SPEAKER_11]: ...friendly SOP.
[54:10.230 --> 54:11.610]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, Steve, we're almost out of time.
[54:11.670 --> 54:14.050]  [SPEAKER_05]: Is there anything that, uh, you want to say in, in, in conclusion?
[54:14.550 --> 54:23.050]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, I should point out, uh, just, uh, to follow up on the thread from a couple of weeks ago that there was gold fringe on the flag in the courtroom, whatever that means.
[54:23.050 --> 54:23.430]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[54:23.770 --> 54:25.870]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm glad we, uh, cleared that up, but, uh...
[54:25.870 --> 54:30.610]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, yeah, I, I never quite understood that, but, you know, we have to pass the information along to the people who can use it.
[54:31.590 --> 54:37.990]  [SPEAKER_11]: Um, no, seriously, uh, the only thing that I have to say in closing is that we've still got a long way to go.
[54:38.290 --> 54:46.610]  [SPEAKER_11]: I'm, I'm crossing my fingers that we get a good decision in this, but good, good court decisions are just the first step.
[54:46.610 --> 55:07.470]  [SPEAKER_11]: We need, we need new laws, we need carefully written laws, and I hope that people will support the EFF and support the other groups that are trying to get, get laws written that, that reflect the, the reality of computer importance in society today, and not,
[55:07.670 --> 55:12.090]  [SPEAKER_11]: not the imaginations and the fears of people who have never even really used computers.
[55:13.010 --> 55:24.210]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's an interesting, uh, interesting point, uh, because, uh, we're looking at administration that has just, uh, left us that had virtually no computers, and now we have an administration that's very much into computers and technology.
[55:24.310 --> 55:25.550]  [SPEAKER_05]: Do you think that's going to make a big difference?
[55:25.810 --> 55:26.570]  [SPEAKER_05]: I sure hope so.
[55:27.210 --> 55:32.830]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, now you want to give out any, uh, any phone numbers, addresses, uh, email addresses, anything like that for people to, uh...
[55:32.830 --> 55:37.390]  [SPEAKER_11]: Um, okay, email address for the Electronic Frontier Foundation.
[55:38.190 --> 55:39.270]  [SPEAKER_11]: This one's easy.
[55:40.130 --> 55:45.390]  [SPEAKER_11]: EFF at EFF dot org.
[55:45.950 --> 55:46.970]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's O-R-G.
[55:47.230 --> 55:47.550]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yes.
[55:47.830 --> 55:56.750]  [SPEAKER_11]: Let me look up a phone number for the National EFF for those people who can't reach them on the Internet.
[55:57.310 --> 56:02.450]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's, uh, I believe still in Cambridge, although they'll, they'll be, uh, moving their main office to Washington D.C.
[56:02.450 --> 56:04.850]  [SPEAKER_11]: They're about to move, so I'm going to get you the Washington number.
[56:04.850 --> 56:05.330]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[56:07.770 --> 56:08.770]  [SPEAKER_11]: Coming up now.
[56:09.010 --> 56:09.290]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay.
[56:09.710 --> 56:12.090]  [SPEAKER_05]: Looking this up on one of your computers, I imagine.
[56:12.530 --> 56:13.410]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, here we go.
[56:13.490 --> 56:13.670]  [SPEAKER_11]: Alright.
[56:14.210 --> 56:21.110]  [SPEAKER_11]: 2-0-2-5-4-4-9-2-3-7.
[56:22.710 --> 56:23.150]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[56:23.610 --> 56:26.950]  [SPEAKER_11]: And I can't tell you who to talk to because it depends on what you need.
[56:27.050 --> 56:30.330]  [SPEAKER_11]: But if you need the EFF, call that number and tell them what you want.
[56:30.330 --> 56:41.010]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, Steve, we wish you the best of luck as always, and, uh, as soon as something happens with your case, of course, we'll, we'll talk about it here and probably have you on again to, uh, talk about how good or how bad you feel.
[56:41.770 --> 56:43.530]  [SPEAKER_11]: Always, always happy to come back.
[56:43.770 --> 56:44.850]  [SPEAKER_11]: Good luck to you, Mark.
[56:45.110 --> 56:46.150]  [SPEAKER_11]: We'll see you sometime.
[56:46.310 --> 56:47.010]  [SPEAKER_11]: Good luck to you, too.
[56:47.370 --> 56:47.710]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[56:48.330 --> 56:48.690]  [SPEAKER_05]: Thank you.
[56:48.690 --> 56:48.770]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[56:48.990 --> 56:49.450]  [SPEAKER_05]: So long.
[56:49.790 --> 56:55.510]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, uh, don't forget, everybody, there are, uh, hacker meetings this Friday coming up, uh, the first Friday of the month.
[56:56.030 --> 56:58.790]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, boy, I'll tell you, they're happening throughout the world now.
[56:59.130 --> 57:02.110]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, we've got meetings in, uh, Munich, Germany, Amsterdam.
[57:02.690 --> 57:08.610]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, I think Pittsburgh is joining us in Seattle as well, in addition to the, uh, to the regular cities.
[57:08.890 --> 57:09.590]  [SPEAKER_05]: Also Atlanta.
[57:09.850 --> 57:10.930]  [SPEAKER_05]: Add Atlanta to that list.
[57:11.370 --> 57:17.230]  [SPEAKER_05]: And our regular cities of, uh, San Francisco, Los Angeles, uh, Austin, Texas, which is where Steve Jackson is right now.
[57:17.390 --> 57:22.630]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, St. Louis, Chicago, Philadelphia, Cambridge, Massachusetts, uh, Washington, D.C.
[57:22.970 --> 57:28.790]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, right here in New York City at the CitiCorp Center in the lobby near the payphones.
[57:29.310 --> 57:32.150]  [SPEAKER_05]: CitiCorp Center is that weird building uptown with a slanty roof.
[57:32.750 --> 57:36.070]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, 153 East 53rd Street between Lexington and 3rd Avenue.
[57:36.590 --> 57:39.670]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, uh, the meeting takes place this Friday from 5 p.m.
[57:39.750 --> 57:40.570]  [SPEAKER_05]: to around 8 p.m.
[57:40.570 --> 57:46.750]  [SPEAKER_05]: And to call it a meeting, I guess, is kind of weird because it's more like a gathering of people in a mall kind of a setting.
[57:46.910 --> 57:47.790]  [SPEAKER_05]: There are no speakers.
[57:47.790 --> 57:49.170]  [SPEAKER_05]: There's no real set agenda.
[57:49.390 --> 57:54.010]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's just a gathering point for a lot of people to meet and exchange information.
[57:54.010 --> 57:56.610]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's what the people in charge fear the most.
[57:59.570 --> 58:01.770]  [SPEAKER_05]: I want to thank everybody for joining us this week.
[58:01.770 --> 58:04.390]  [SPEAKER_05]: We'll be back again next week for another edition of Off The Hook.
[58:04.510 --> 58:07.310]  [SPEAKER_05]: This is Emmanuel Goldstein for Phiber Optik and everybody else.
[58:07.810 --> 58:08.390]  [SPEAKER_05]: Good night.