Off The Hook - 1993-02-24

[00:01.860 --> 00:17.240]  [SPEAKER_00]: You'll meet the likes of show waitress Dixie Lilly, Shantoos Finescities, The Missing Link, Aerious Guy, and America's latent superhero, Captain Fabulous in his yellow ribbon cape, and even celebrities like Elvis and Johnny Cash.
[00:17.440 --> 00:22.980]  [SPEAKER_00]: So tune into the Bernie Fleshkin Show on WBAI on the first Monday morning of every month at 9.30.
[00:23.180 --> 00:25.780]  [SPEAKER_00]: It's a rock and roll comedy adventure you won't soon forget.
[00:25.780 --> 00:26.940]  [SPEAKER_00]: Just ask the FCC.
[00:26.940 --> 00:34.660]  [SPEAKER_00]: That's the first Monday morning of every month at 9.30 on free speech, listener-sponsored, hey, buddy, got a dime radio, WBAI.
[00:34.800 --> 00:35.780]  [SPEAKER_00]: Who loves you, sweetheart?
[00:36.100 --> 00:37.180]  [SPEAKER_00]: Ciao, muchachos!
[00:42.720 --> 00:48.140]  [SPEAKER_03]: This is WBAI, New York, where rock and all kinds of other things live.
[01:40.670 --> 01:41.790]  [SPEAKER_03]: Good evening, friends.
[01:42.370 --> 01:43.950]  [SPEAKER_03]: This is Emmanuel Goldstein.
[01:44.110 --> 01:51.090]  [SPEAKER_03]: The program is off the hook, where we talk about the threats of the 21st century.
[01:53.950 --> 02:00.510]  [SPEAKER_03]: Technology, coupled with the human mind, can create some fantastic things.
[02:00.510 --> 02:02.570]  [SPEAKER_03]: It can also create some monsters.
[02:05.070 --> 02:09.990]  [SPEAKER_03]: Will we be seeing the second coming, or will we be seeing the return of the dinosaurs?
[02:09.990 --> 02:10.990]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's up to us.
[02:12.530 --> 02:13.590]  [SPEAKER_03]: And it's up to you.
[02:14.970 --> 02:25.210]  [SPEAKER_03]: We'll be updating you on a bunch of interesting things, and also taking lots of phone calls today, because we haven't had a chance to do that in a little while.
[02:26.910 --> 02:56.900]  [SPEAKER_03]: So, give us a call at 212-279-3400, with your questions and comments about telephones, computers, privacy, technology, big brother, and hackers, and anything else that might fit in there somewhere.
[03:30.060 --> 03:49.740]  [SPEAKER_03]: Many times, we focus on the humorous aspects of technological foul-ups and blunders, kind of America's funniest home videos, of telephone mix-ups, computer malfunctions.
[03:49.740 --> 04:19.150]  [SPEAKER_03]: But, occasionally, and with increasing frequency, over the years to come, we're going to be seeing lives destroyed, snuffed out, by the same ignorance that leads that salesperson to say, I'm just doing what the computer told me to do.
[04:26.030 --> 04:33.870]  [SPEAKER_03]: This story comes from the Oregonian of February 20th.
[04:39.940 --> 04:51.900]  [SPEAKER_03]: A computer error added seven minutes to the time it took firefighters to reach a 68-year-old woman trapped in her burning Bonnie Slope home last week.
[04:54.340 --> 05:01.200]  [SPEAKER_03]: Mildred Smith died of smoke inhalation, suffered in a pre-dawn February 12th blaze at her home.
[05:02.460 --> 05:06.100]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I don't think we really need to give the exact address.
[05:06.100 --> 05:09.640]  [SPEAKER_03]: For some reason, newspapers feel compelled to give people's exact addresses.
[05:09.640 --> 05:13.900]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, people can go by and look at the charred remains of the house.
[05:14.920 --> 05:26.180]  [SPEAKER_03]: But since nobody is near Oregon listening to this program, and since we believe in privacy, even privacy of the dead, we're going to leave that information out.
[05:27.000 --> 05:34.420]  [SPEAKER_03]: If you really want to know, you can call up information and ask for the address for Mildred Smith, the late Mildred Smith.
[05:34.420 --> 05:37.020]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, there's probably about 500 of those anyway.
[05:38.420 --> 05:40.560]  [SPEAKER_03]: Mildred Smith, that is, not late Mildred Smith.
[05:40.720 --> 05:41.420]  [SPEAKER_03]: But anyway...
[05:42.060 --> 05:46.420]  [SPEAKER_03]: A neighbor telephoned 9-1-1 to report the fire at 2.40 a.m.
[05:46.420 --> 06:05.880]  [SPEAKER_03]: But firefighters from Tualatin Valley, Tualatin Valley Fire and Rescue, were not dispatched until 2.47 a.m., seven minutes later, because a computer error sent the original call to the wrong place.
[06:09.080 --> 06:17.500]  [SPEAKER_03]: Eugene Jacobus, Washington County Deputy Medical Examiner, said it would be hard to determine whether the dispatching delay made a fatal difference.
[06:19.520 --> 06:27.820]  [SPEAKER_03]: Firefighters were also delayed by steel bar security doors when they reached the remote home north of Cedar Mill, five and a half minutes after finally getting the call for help.
[06:28.600 --> 06:33.580]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's really hard to say, but certainly a delay of that magnitude is going to make a difference, Jacobus said.
[06:33.860 --> 06:43.020]  [SPEAKER_03]: You can be relatively sure that any delay, whether two or seven minutes, is going to rob an individual of some ability to be resuscitated.
[06:46.840 --> 06:54.900]  [SPEAKER_03]: By Friday, officials had traced the problem to the computerized telephone switching system at Portland's 911 Center on Kelly Butte.
[06:55.680 --> 07:16.320]  [SPEAKER_03]: Fire and US West Communications, that's their NYNEX equivalent out there, officials from those two organizations, the Fire People and the US West People, say a reloading of some computer software by US West inadvertently changed the way the 911 system routed calls for a very small number of callers.
[07:17.820 --> 07:22.320]  [SPEAKER_03]: We're still looking to find out how that happened, said Jim Haynes, US West spokesman.
[07:27.700 --> 07:33.760]  [SPEAKER_03]: What specifically happened with this case, 2.40am Jack Gilbert of...
[07:34.600 --> 07:37.100]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, they give another exact address, which we're not going to give.
[07:37.500 --> 07:46.480]  [SPEAKER_03]: He called 911 to report what he first thought was a brush fire in the area of the burning house, about 100 yards away.
[07:46.580 --> 07:53.200]  [SPEAKER_03]: The call was answered at Kelly Butte because the Gilberts home is just inside the Multnomah County line.
[07:53.900 --> 08:06.600]  [SPEAKER_03]: On the enhanced 911 computer screen, the dispatcher could see that Washington County Consolidated Communication Agency was the appropriate dispatching agency, and Tualatin Valley Fire and Rescue was the appropriate fire department.
[08:07.240 --> 08:13.200]  [SPEAKER_03]: About four seconds later, the dispatcher hit a key that is supposed to route the call automatically to the right place.
[08:14.760 --> 08:17.360]  [SPEAKER_03]: But in this case, it didn't work.
[08:18.420 --> 08:29.960]  [SPEAKER_03]: Although the 911 operator didn't know it, the call instead went to Portland's Fire Alarm Dispatch Office, which dispatches Portland Fire Bureau units.
[08:30.880 --> 08:34.440]  [SPEAKER_03]: Dispatchers there looked at the address and realized it was a Washington County call.
[08:34.440 --> 08:39.680]  [SPEAKER_03]: At 2.44 a.m., Portland Fire dispatchers called the Washington County 911 Center.
[08:40.880 --> 08:45.100]  [SPEAKER_03]: But for reasons that are unclear, Washington County dispatchers looking for...
[08:45.100 --> 08:47.420]  [SPEAKER_03]: I guess I have to give the number now because it's important.
[08:47.960 --> 09:00.300]  [SPEAKER_03]: Washington County dispatchers looked for 1229 Hiller Road instead of 12229 for some time without finding it in their computers, finally kicking back to Portland under the belief that it must be a Portland address.
[09:01.480 --> 09:05.000]  [SPEAKER_03]: About two minutes later, Portland Fire called Washington County again.
[09:05.000 --> 09:10.360]  [SPEAKER_03]: This time, the right five-digit address was exchanged, probably along with some foul language.
[09:11.520 --> 09:16.320]  [SPEAKER_03]: Finally, at 2.47 a.m., Tualatin Valley Fire and Rescue got the call.
[09:18.820 --> 09:25.600]  [SPEAKER_03]: At almost the exact moment, seven minutes after the first call, Smith herself called 911 from inside her home.
[09:25.720 --> 09:26.760]  [SPEAKER_03]: The same thing happened.
[09:27.160 --> 09:34.820]  [SPEAKER_03]: The Kelly Butte dispatcher hit the key to route the call, and it went to Portland Fire Alarm Dispatch instead of Washington County.
[09:35.640 --> 09:39.540]  [SPEAKER_03]: About a minute after that, Gilbert called again, this time to report that the fire was in the house.
[09:40.060 --> 09:42.280]  [SPEAKER_03]: By this time, firefighters were on the way.
[09:43.580 --> 09:47.980]  [SPEAKER_03]: Took the first company coming from Kaiser Road in the Oak Hills area five and a half minutes to get there.
[09:48.100 --> 09:49.800]  [SPEAKER_03]: The second unit arrived two minutes after that.
[09:51.640 --> 09:52.580]  [SPEAKER_03]: Both by then.
[09:54.040 --> 09:55.960]  [SPEAKER_03]: Mrs. Smith was already gone.
[09:59.200 --> 09:59.660]  Well...
[10:00.190 --> 10:04.520]  [SPEAKER_03]: Be nice to say a situation like that doesn't happen too often, but, uh...
[10:05.060 --> 10:08.260]  [SPEAKER_03]: Here's something submitted by Jim Carroll onto the Risk's Digest.
[10:08.260 --> 10:13.340]  [SPEAKER_03]: On the evening of February 2nd, my wife and I were woken up by sounds out on the street.
[10:14.180 --> 10:21.480]  [SPEAKER_03]: My wife struggled out of bed, looked through the Venetian blinds, and screamed at me to put on my glasses and come to the window.
[10:23.920 --> 10:26.040]  [SPEAKER_03]: The house across the street was on fire.
[10:26.280 --> 10:28.880]  [SPEAKER_03]: This was no small contained fire.
[10:29.040 --> 10:31.260]  [SPEAKER_03]: The entire complete structure was up in flames.
[10:31.260 --> 10:35.980]  [SPEAKER_03]: I was quoted in the press days later as saying that the flames were over 50 feet high.
[10:36.240 --> 10:38.540]  [SPEAKER_03]: I still don't think this is an exaggeration.
[10:40.100 --> 10:42.120]  [SPEAKER_03]: It was a stunning and disturbing sight.
[10:42.420 --> 10:45.480]  [SPEAKER_03]: So much so that we have slept only fitfully since then.
[10:45.800 --> 10:47.500]  [SPEAKER_03]: The house was completely destroyed.
[10:47.680 --> 10:49.340]  [SPEAKER_03]: Fortunately, the owner escaped.
[10:50.160 --> 10:55.060]  [SPEAKER_03]: What makes it all the worse is that it quickly became apparent that the fire department was not responding.
[10:56.620 --> 11:01.960]  [SPEAKER_03]: For what seemed like an eternity, the fire burned out of control with only a lone police officer on the scene.
[11:03.040 --> 11:05.920]  [SPEAKER_03]: Eventually, the fire department arrived and began to do their work.
[11:06.860 --> 11:15.240]  [SPEAKER_03]: As the neighbors congregated in shock outside, the story began to circulate that it took the fire department 22 minutes to get there, and that they went to the wrong address.
[11:17.700 --> 11:24.720]  [SPEAKER_03]: It turns out that when the operator at 9-1-1 received the call, Birchford was punched into the computer.
[11:24.860 --> 11:29.660]  [SPEAKER_03]: The system listed Birchford Heights Drive first, a street a good five miles away from our location.
[11:30.660 --> 11:36.680]  [SPEAKER_03]: Tragically, the operator selected that location, and a full response team of six pumpers and trucks was sent.
[11:37.620 --> 11:42.320]  [SPEAKER_03]: Meanwhile, the fire on Birchford Drive continued to rage out of control.
[11:44.160 --> 11:53.400]  [SPEAKER_03]: My neighbor across the street called three times when it became evident that something was wrong when the fire department was not there within five minutes, being only about one mile away.
[11:54.420 --> 12:01.800]  [SPEAKER_03]: They realized their mistake within 10-12 minutes after the third call, and after obviously seeing that there was no fire on Birchford Heights Drive.
[12:09.050 --> 12:14.850]  [SPEAKER_03]: The Mississauga Fire Department has apologized to the owner of the destroyed property.
[12:15.030 --> 12:20.990]  [SPEAKER_03]: Estimates of loss are $1.5 million or higher.
[12:21.330 --> 12:24.890]  [SPEAKER_03]: That general vicinity kind of blurs after that point.
[12:25.450 --> 12:28.850]  [SPEAKER_03]: And they've promised to review their dispatch procedures.
[12:32.680 --> 12:35.420]  [SPEAKER_03]: These kind of things are happening all the time.
[12:40.330 --> 12:49.800]  [SPEAKER_03]: The London Ambulance Service crisis reported to the Risks Digest that...
[12:52.220 --> 12:53.320]  [SPEAKER_03]: Actually, I misread that.
[12:53.380 --> 13:02.520]  [SPEAKER_03]: The London Ambulance Service crisis, which was reported to Risks Digest, has been absent from the UK press for a while, but now it seems likely to burst forth again.
[13:03.680 --> 13:08.900]  [SPEAKER_03]: This comes from the UK Computer Weekly, dated February 18th, 1993.
[13:10.540 --> 13:14.660]  [SPEAKER_03]: London Ambulance Service made a fatal blunder when it brought a...
[13:15.220 --> 13:21.880]  [SPEAKER_03]: a 1 million pound untested computer system to handle 999 calls.
[13:23.020 --> 13:26.020]  [SPEAKER_03]: 999 being the British equivalent of 911.
[13:26.940 --> 13:31.980]  [SPEAKER_03]: An official inquiry will reveal this particular fact in a week or so.
[13:33.060 --> 13:37.720]  [SPEAKER_03]: Union leaders have already blamed the system for contributing to the deaths of at least 4 patients.
[13:38.960 --> 13:44.140]  [SPEAKER_03]: Around 800,000 emergency calls are handled by the Capitals Ambulance Service each year.
[13:44.600 --> 13:54.680]  [SPEAKER_03]: But after a spate of incidents in which calls were lost, and emergency victims suffered long delays before ambulances arrived, the system was abandoned.
[13:56.040 --> 14:03.820]  [SPEAKER_03]: Now, an official report into the fiasco demanded by Health Secretary Virginia Bottomley is expected to be scathing in its criticism.
[14:04.600 --> 14:15.740]  [SPEAKER_03]: Since last November, an independent panel has been looking at the circumstances surrounding the purchase of the system, which was bought when a previous computer-aided dispatch module crashed.
[14:15.740 --> 14:24.500]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yet, after just a few months of use, the replacement was similarly suffering from call data overload.
[14:26.080 --> 14:40.800]  [SPEAKER_03]: Questions raised by the report will include why Aldershot-based Systems Options was chosen as the main software supplier when it had no previous experience in providing dispatch systems to the ambulance sector.
[14:41.980 --> 14:47.460]  [SPEAKER_03]: Jim Pedroza, Systems Options founder, has consistently refused to talk to the press.
[14:47.780 --> 14:57.880]  [SPEAKER_03]: His networked solution based on Apricot workstations and servers contrasts markedly with many based systems favored by other emergency services.
[14:58.100 --> 15:10.280]  [SPEAKER_03]: According to sources working close to the inquiry team, one conclusion is that a replacement computer-aided dispatch system will now take years, rather than months, to implement.
[15:10.980 --> 15:17.040]  [SPEAKER_03]: It will also confirm that the Systems Options solution is wholly unfit for the task.
[15:18.240 --> 15:25.020]  [SPEAKER_03]: Said one London ambulance source, what we're talking about here is an official stamp of condemnation.
[15:26.280 --> 15:33.240]  [SPEAKER_03]: Not enough attention was paid to the project, and the lack of expertise in choosing the system was completely unacceptable.
[15:34.720 --> 15:41.520]  [SPEAKER_03]: The outcome of the report has been delayed to allow for the publication this week of the Tomlinson Report on London Hospitals.
[15:42.900 --> 15:53.100]  [SPEAKER_03]: Since the system was ditched, the service's chief, John Wilby, has resigned, and control room staff have reverted to manual methods of dispatching crews.
[15:54.940 --> 15:56.380]  [SPEAKER_03]: Many times that's what happens.
[15:56.920 --> 16:07.700]  [SPEAKER_03]: You have this real neat computer system, and you have to go back to doing it by hand, because nobody can figure out just how to get around all the problems at start.
[16:09.300 --> 16:10.500]  [SPEAKER_03]: Sad but true.
[16:13.280 --> 16:16.620]  [SPEAKER_03]: Another sad but true incident comes out of Canada.
[16:16.620 --> 16:17.760]  [SPEAKER_03]: Not quite as sad, though.
[16:18.560 --> 16:22.660]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's that time of year again when love is in the air, and Canada Post is seeing red.
[16:22.660 --> 16:24.220]  [SPEAKER_03]: This comes from the Toronto Star.
[16:25.040 --> 16:26.880]  [SPEAKER_03]: When we say red, we mean red envelopes.
[16:27.240 --> 16:37.580]  [SPEAKER_03]: That's because the computerized mail sorting machines, which can process 33,000 letters an hour, have trouble reading addresses off the red envelopes popular for Valentine's Day greetings.
[16:37.960 --> 16:39.620]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's according to Canada Post.
[16:40.400 --> 16:49.380]  [SPEAKER_03]: We in Canada have some of the most technically advanced machinery in the world, but while it's not impossible for them to read red envelopes, some of them can present a bit of a challenge.
[16:50.040 --> 16:54.020]  [SPEAKER_03]: So if your Valentine card hasn't arrived, it may have been delayed in the mail sorting process.
[16:54.780 --> 17:01.040]  [SPEAKER_03]: A reminder for next year, white envelopes should be used instead, or put a white sticker on a red envelope.
[17:02.400 --> 17:08.860]  [SPEAKER_03]: A small sacrifice to pay for the technological enlightenment we're all facing here.
[17:10.640 --> 17:18.900]  [SPEAKER_03]: Citibank's 1,200 ATMs went down as they refused to dispense cash or complete transactions from 10 a.m.
[17:18.920 --> 17:19.860]  [SPEAKER_03]: to 2 p.m.
[17:20.760 --> 17:22.760]  [SPEAKER_03]: on a recent Saturday.
[17:22.760 --> 17:24.760]  [SPEAKER_03]: I believe it was the 6th.
[17:26.240 --> 17:27.920]  [SPEAKER_03]: No, it might have been the 13th, actually.
[17:28.040 --> 17:29.280]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, Saturday the 13th.
[17:29.580 --> 17:34.440]  [SPEAKER_03]: They went down because of a software glitch when new software was being installed.
[17:35.160 --> 17:38.960]  [SPEAKER_03]: Seems like most of these problems come from new software being installed.
[17:39.840 --> 17:44.740]  [SPEAKER_03]: And that's when the old facts just don't get processed quite as quickly.
[17:45.420 --> 17:59.920]  [SPEAKER_03]: The Valley Times reported that telephone service was cut off from more than four hours to about 37,000 phone lines in Livermore, California, including 911 and Operator Zero lines.
[18:00.780 --> 18:08.220]  [SPEAKER_03]: The article said that the significance of the malfunction was in having three prefixes that can't reach emergency phone lines.
[18:09.160 --> 18:17.580]  [SPEAKER_03]: Pacific Bell, which is the phone company out there, was stymied in correcting the problem because diagnostic tests of the equipment told technicians that there was no problem.
[18:19.200 --> 18:25.400]  [SPEAKER_03]: Technicians eventually located the problem in a call processor computer tape and replaced the malfunctioning tape.
[18:27.080 --> 18:34.620]  [SPEAKER_03]: Luckily, for some people out in California, that particular area was a relatively low crime area.
[18:35.000 --> 18:41.240]  [SPEAKER_03]: Now, serious crimes occurred during the outage of more than four hours.
[18:44.400 --> 18:51.620]  [SPEAKER_03]: Some banks compensated by letting in only a few customers at a time because they were concerned that their alarm systems wouldn't be able to call police.
[18:55.860 --> 19:07.520]  [SPEAKER_03]: And here's something that might affect you a bit more often than, say, death by ambulance or lack of ATMs or telephones.
[19:09.060 --> 19:10.960]  [SPEAKER_03]: This can happen any time you go to the store.
[19:12.540 --> 19:14.540]  [SPEAKER_03]: This comes from Rob Slade.
[19:17.160 --> 19:22.120]  [SPEAKER_03]: About two months ago, I was permitted to accompany my wife on an expedition to the fabric store.
[19:24.000 --> 19:31.060]  [SPEAKER_03]: Our final transaction involving a credit card was a source of no small confusion to the clerk at the till.
[19:31.060 --> 19:36.280]  [SPEAKER_03]: He punched all the requisite buttons, but was unhappy with the result.
[19:37.640 --> 19:41.160]  [SPEAKER_03]: Finally, though, he punched the transmit button.
[19:43.900 --> 19:52.100]  [SPEAKER_03]: Apparently, he was no happier with this new result since he mentally ran over the process again before again punching the transmit button.
[19:53.000 --> 19:58.760]  [SPEAKER_03]: Still unhappy, he asked help from a co-worker who quizzed him on the process.
[20:00.300 --> 20:06.560]  [SPEAKER_03]: Satisfied that he had not, in fact, made an error, she punched the transmit button and was no happier than he was with the result.
[20:07.140 --> 20:15.300]  [SPEAKER_03]: The manager was brought in and was still not any happier after she, the manager, had punched transmit.
[20:16.200 --> 20:24.100]  [SPEAKER_03]: The situation was resolved when someone remembered to turn on the printer attached to the swipe unit.
[20:29.820 --> 20:31.640]  [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, but that's not the end of the story.
[20:36.440 --> 20:37.040]  [SPEAKER_03]: Because...
[20:38.180 --> 20:42.920]  [SPEAKER_03]: this person was reminded of this incident by something else that happened.
[20:44.160 --> 20:51.020]  [SPEAKER_03]: His credit card bill came with four copies of the same billing.
[20:53.220 --> 20:59.340]  [SPEAKER_03]: You see, the unit apparently was indicating an error, but didn't give any indication as to what that error was.
[21:01.540 --> 21:10.220]  [SPEAKER_03]: The procedure had a fault, but was allowed to proceed without a vital component, which is the printed receipt.
[21:12.100 --> 21:18.260]  [SPEAKER_03]: When you have a printed receipt, it's supposed to be signed by the customer, and that is really the legal proof of the transaction.
[21:22.000 --> 21:30.320]  [SPEAKER_03]: Even though the transaction was only entered once, the unit still submitted four confirmed billings, with only the transmit key being hit again.
[21:32.480 --> 21:44.060]  [SPEAKER_03]: I find it odd, says Rob Slade, that the transaction having been transmitted would not be cleared from the till side unit in order to prevent such accidental duplicates.
[21:44.060 --> 21:46.800]  [SPEAKER_03]: This reminds me of something that just recently happened to me.
[21:48.720 --> 21:59.460]  [SPEAKER_03]: When I went down to Texas, I figured it would make sense to reserve a hotel room, or actually a motel room, in advance.
[21:59.840 --> 22:05.400]  [SPEAKER_03]: See, the way things worked out was, I wound up flying into this remote part of Texas.
[22:06.180 --> 22:14.200]  [SPEAKER_03]: This was to see the Steve Jackson trial, which, by the way, there still has not been a verdict announced in, and we will announce it here when that does happen.
[22:16.900 --> 22:28.320]  [SPEAKER_03]: So, the smart thing to do was to make a reservation at this particular motel that I was going to, which is part of a nationwide chain, which I won't reveal the name of.
[22:31.440 --> 22:39.960]  [SPEAKER_03]: And, as part of the reservation process, the person on the other end asked for my credit card number, and I just thought this was just to confirm my identity.
[22:40.720 --> 22:43.640]  [SPEAKER_03]: And when I got down there, I found the place.
[22:44.480 --> 22:47.140]  [SPEAKER_03]: I went there, they had no record of my...
[22:47.880 --> 22:48.400]  [SPEAKER_03]: reservation.
[22:49.480 --> 23:04.660]  [SPEAKER_03]: But they cheerfully took my credit card information again, and everything seemed to be fine, until I got my credit card bill, and found that I was charged by two different motels with the same name in the same city.
[23:07.320 --> 23:09.120]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, I had gone to the wrong one.
[23:10.100 --> 23:13.080]  [SPEAKER_03]: I had two rooms in the same city on the same night.
[23:16.770 --> 23:18.130]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, it wasn't much fun.
[23:19.690 --> 23:25.170]  [SPEAKER_03]: Particularly since, uh, they weren't exactly straight in how the reservation process worked.
[23:27.330 --> 23:31.910]  [SPEAKER_03]: You think you're giving something out for identification, but, in actuality, you're being billed.
[23:31.990 --> 23:32.970]  [SPEAKER_03]: That's not really...
[23:33.930 --> 23:36.070]  [SPEAKER_03]: the way these things should work, and...
[23:36.650 --> 23:38.130]  [SPEAKER_03]: you need to keep your eyes open.
[23:38.430 --> 23:40.070]  [SPEAKER_03]: Because if you don't...
[23:40.790 --> 23:43.250]  [SPEAKER_03]: you never know what kind of surprises will be...
[23:43.930 --> 23:44.750]  [SPEAKER_03]: waiting for you.
[23:46.170 --> 23:47.750]  [SPEAKER_03]: Speaking of surprises...
[23:49.010 --> 24:00.590]  [SPEAKER_03]: Hans Jankowski was pleasantly surprised when a money-changing machine from the bank Tota & Encores in the Lisbon airport gave him his receipt in Esperanto.
[24:01.730 --> 24:02.770]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's true.
[24:03.250 --> 24:10.930]  [SPEAKER_03]: Because the Portuguese Esperanto Association was also surprised, Antonio Martins decided to explore.
[24:10.930 --> 24:12.870]  [SPEAKER_03]: It seems that this was...
[24:12.870 --> 24:15.590]  [SPEAKER_03]: probably an error in setting up the computer.
[24:16.230 --> 24:23.390]  [SPEAKER_03]: On installation of the 10-language system, someone mistakenly programmed Esperanto instead of the Spanish Espanol.
[24:24.590 --> 24:25.230]  [SPEAKER_03]: So...
[24:26.730 --> 24:29.310]  [SPEAKER_03]: it's requested that no one congratulate the bank.
[24:29.430 --> 24:31.630]  [SPEAKER_03]: They would be able to repair this mistake.
[24:37.980 --> 24:40.720]  [SPEAKER_03]: And here's something of a local nature.
[24:41.320 --> 24:52.860]  [SPEAKER_03]: Continental Cablevision of Hartford broadcast a special offer of a free t-shirt during last fall's Holyfield-Bowie fight of November 14th.
[24:53.400 --> 24:58.540]  [SPEAKER_03]: Unlike most pay-per-view broadcasting, this one did not show up through legitimate decoders.
[24:59.400 --> 25:04.400]  [SPEAKER_03]: The ad and its 800 number only showed up when watched through illegal decoders.
[25:06.500 --> 25:10.820]  [SPEAKER_03]: 140 freeloaders called the 800 number within minutes of the ad's broadcast.
[25:10.820 --> 25:25.240]  [SPEAKER_03]: Continental sent the t-shirts by certified return receipt mail and then sent them a follow-up letter reminding them of the federal laws, fines of up to $10,000, and demanding a $2,000 fine.
[25:29.660 --> 25:31.380]  [SPEAKER_03]: That's a surprise.
[25:42.460 --> 25:48.800]  [SPEAKER_03]: And you know, there's one thing that the authorities fear more than anything else, and that's not being able to listen in.
[25:50.420 --> 26:05.240]  [SPEAKER_03]: One of the jewels of Europe's electronics industry, the new all-digital cellular phone system, known as GSM, may be blocked from export to other countries around the world by Britain's Department of Trade and Industry.
[26:06.100 --> 26:15.080]  [SPEAKER_03]: The DTI objects to the exports because it believes the encryption system that GSM uses to code its messages is too good.
[26:15.720 --> 26:20.980]  [SPEAKER_03]: Sources say this is because the security services and military establishment in Britain and the U.S.
[26:20.980 --> 26:25.060]  [SPEAKER_03]: fear they will no longer be able to eavesdrop on telephone conversations.
[26:26.940 --> 26:38.140]  [SPEAKER_03]: Few people believe GSM needs such powerful encryption, but the makers of GSM complain that the DTI has woken to the problem five years too late.
[26:39.660 --> 26:52.860]  [SPEAKER_03]: Here in the United States, it's incredibly easy to listen to cellular phone calls simply by turning on a scanner and tuning to the 800 MHz part of the dial.
[26:54.100 --> 26:56.320]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's so incredibly easy.
[26:58.440 --> 27:12.380]  [SPEAKER_03]: Meanwhile, fans of encryption and those who merely fan the fires of debate about encryption's inherent threat-slash-value will want to dig up Peter Schweitzer's new book, Friendly Spies, just published by Atlantic Monthly Press.
[27:12.660 --> 27:17.580]  [SPEAKER_03]: He includes many different details about covert intelligence operations directed against U.S.
[27:17.700 --> 27:19.900]  [SPEAKER_03]: corporations by Cold War allies.
[27:20.520 --> 27:26.620]  [SPEAKER_03]: Time and time again, he says, foreign governments conspire with foreign companies to steal U.S.
[27:26.740 --> 27:30.040]  [SPEAKER_03]: technology and economic secrets.
[27:31.740 --> 27:36.540]  [SPEAKER_03]: He mentions that France and Germany and many other countries require U.S.
[27:36.660 --> 27:41.480]  [SPEAKER_03]: companies to register the encryption key for reasons of national security.
[27:43.760 --> 27:48.680]  [SPEAKER_03]: All of the American transmissions are monitored and the data is passed on to the local competitors.
[27:49.620 --> 28:03.840]  [SPEAKER_03]: Companies like IBM finally began to routinely transmit false information to their French subsidiary just to thwart the French secret service and by transitive property of economic nationalism, French computer companies.
[28:04.680 --> 28:10.080]  [SPEAKER_03]: The lesson learned here is that key registration in the world hurts American corporations.
[28:10.740 --> 28:15.740]  [SPEAKER_03]: Cryptography protects the creators and thwarts those who seek to copy innovation.
[28:16.320 --> 28:23.460]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I'll take that a step further and say that key registration will hurt individual people.
[28:24.220 --> 28:27.100]  [SPEAKER_03]: There's a big debate raging about this right now.
[28:27.900 --> 28:39.300]  [SPEAKER_03]: Should people be allowed to encrypt their messages on the Internet without the government or anybody else being able to use some kind of a back door to get in and read the messages?
[28:39.320 --> 28:41.540]  [SPEAKER_03]: After all, what if a criminal is sending a message?
[28:41.980 --> 28:44.640]  [SPEAKER_03]: They're big on the child pornography issue.
[28:44.640 --> 28:51.160]  [SPEAKER_03]: What if these nasty people that are conspiring in child pornography are sending encrypted messages?
[28:51.320 --> 28:53.320]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, there will be absolutely nothing we can do about it.
[28:54.220 --> 28:55.040]  [SPEAKER_03]: Absolutely nothing.
[28:55.240 --> 28:56.540]  [SPEAKER_03]: So there has to be a back door.
[28:56.980 --> 29:00.640]  [SPEAKER_03]: There has to be a way to defeat these evil people.
[29:02.660 --> 29:07.960]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, by defeating evil people, you defeat all kinds of other people as well.
[29:09.200 --> 29:12.660]  [SPEAKER_03]: I guess the question is, do we want to be defeated?
[29:17.310 --> 29:18.150]  [SPEAKER_03]: What do you think?
[29:18.290 --> 29:21.410]  [SPEAKER_03]: Give us a call, 212-279-3400.
[29:25.470 --> 29:28.710]  [SPEAKER_03]: We'll be taking phone calls here on Off The Hook.
[30:20.150 --> 30:23.650]  [SPEAKER_02]: Was it me?
[30:24.630 --> 30:27.170]  [SPEAKER_02]: Was it you?
[30:28.290 --> 30:30.490]  [SPEAKER_02]: Was it me?
[30:30.490 --> 30:32.470]  [SPEAKER_02]: Questions in a world
[31:34.410 --> 31:40.900]  [SPEAKER_02]: Questions in a world Questions in a world The
[31:45.020 --> 31:48.940]  [SPEAKER_03]: program is Off The Hook.
[31:51.400 --> 31:57.320]  [SPEAKER_03]: And our phone number is 212-279-3400.
[31:59.320 --> 32:00.840]  [SPEAKER_03]: This is Emmanuel Goldstein.
[32:02.200 --> 32:03.280]  [SPEAKER_03]: Hello, Phiber Optik.
[32:04.200 --> 32:04.960]  [SPEAKER_04]: Hi there.
[32:05.160 --> 32:05.580]  [SPEAKER_04]: How are you?
[32:05.860 --> 32:07.160]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm quite fine, thanks.
[32:07.540 --> 32:10.920]  [SPEAKER_03]: Anything of technological foul-up nature happen to you this week?
[32:11.640 --> 32:12.340]  [SPEAKER_03]: Let's see.
[32:12.620 --> 32:15.120]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, I should mention a friend of mine here.
[32:15.300 --> 32:16.660]  [SPEAKER_04]: We'll call him Mr. X.
[32:16.980 --> 32:18.060]  [SPEAKER_04]: Mr. X, yes.
[32:18.100 --> 32:21.660]  [SPEAKER_04]: And Mr. X actually is experiencing something very interesting.
[32:22.000 --> 32:24.840]  [SPEAKER_04]: And it has to do with the phone smart features.
[32:25.320 --> 32:26.240]  [SPEAKER_03]: Phone smart.
[32:26.420 --> 32:29.880]  [SPEAKER_03]: Phone smart features that really aren't that smart.
[32:29.880 --> 32:30.680]  [SPEAKER_03]: No, they don't seem to.
[32:30.680 --> 32:31.280]  [SPEAKER_04]: They don't seem to.
[32:31.440 --> 32:34.840]  [SPEAKER_04]: Or, actually, the people behind the features aren't very smart.
[32:35.020 --> 32:37.300]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, features are only as smart as the people behind them, right?
[32:37.320 --> 32:37.900]  [SPEAKER_04]: This is true.
[32:39.280 --> 32:49.740]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, incidentally, after the trial period ended, for him anyway, because he's in one of these magical areas where they deemed them worthy enough to be able to play with these features.
[32:50.160 --> 33:00.040]  [SPEAKER_04]: And I'm speaking of call return and repeat call and caller ID and the other one.
[33:00.300 --> 33:01.380]  [SPEAKER_04]: What's that useless one again?
[33:01.500 --> 33:02.240]  [SPEAKER_04]: Call trace.
[33:02.440 --> 33:02.860]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's the one.
[33:03.060 --> 33:03.200]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[33:03.600 --> 33:05.960]  [SPEAKER_03]: $1.50 every time you want to trace a harassing call.
[33:06.160 --> 33:07.580]  [SPEAKER_04]: You might as well just mail them a check.
[33:08.160 --> 33:08.720]  [SPEAKER_03]: Might as well.
[33:09.500 --> 33:11.460]  [SPEAKER_03]: And the guy harassing you might as well get a cut.
[33:11.740 --> 33:12.380]  [SPEAKER_03]: Might as well.
[33:12.640 --> 33:12.860]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[33:13.100 --> 33:13.600]  [SPEAKER_03]: So what happened?
[33:13.600 --> 33:24.740]  [SPEAKER_04]: So what happened was, at the end of the designated time, my friend here, Mr. X, suddenly realized that his phone smart features no longer worked.
[33:25.280 --> 33:39.040]  [SPEAKER_04]: Now, the deal was supposed to be, and this is supposed to hold true for everyone, is that once the trial period ends, everyone would still have the features, except you'd be billed on per usage.
[33:39.040 --> 33:39.660]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh-huh.
[33:40.400 --> 33:47.600]  [SPEAKER_04]: So that you'd still have call return, except every time you used it, you'd be billed $0.75.
[33:48.780 --> 33:50.620]  [SPEAKER_03]: Only $0.75, I believe.
[33:50.820 --> 33:51.640]  [SPEAKER_03]: Only the low, low price.
[33:51.640 --> 33:52.960]  [SPEAKER_03]: The way it says in the paper.
[33:53.300 --> 33:54.040]  [SPEAKER_03]: Of $0.75.
[33:54.360 --> 33:55.760]  [SPEAKER_03]: Every time you called somebody back.
[33:55.920 --> 33:56.080]  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[33:56.340 --> 33:59.320]  [SPEAKER_04]: And I believe it's not to exceed $6 in one month.
[33:59.460 --> 34:01.300]  [SPEAKER_04]: Otherwise, you can subscribe to it.
[34:01.980 --> 34:03.100]  [SPEAKER_03]: So many choices.
[34:03.560 --> 34:03.920]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[34:03.920 --> 34:05.120]  [SPEAKER_04]: So little time.
[34:05.820 --> 34:19.340]  [SPEAKER_04]: So what happened was, when Mr. X here noticed that his features no longer worked, which contradicts what the phone company had originally said, he, of course, was angry enough and with a little convincing, he called the business office.
[34:20.280 --> 34:23.580]  [SPEAKER_04]: And the business office had an interesting story to tell him.
[34:23.580 --> 34:28.220]  [SPEAKER_04]: They claimed that he canceled the features himself.
[34:29.660 --> 34:36.020]  [SPEAKER_04]: One on December 31st and another at the first week of January.
[34:37.080 --> 34:39.720]  [SPEAKER_03]: So we're talking about somebody that has memory loss here.
[34:39.820 --> 34:40.620]  [SPEAKER_03]: Is that the case?
[34:41.080 --> 34:41.300]  [SPEAKER_04]: No.
[34:41.560 --> 34:43.020]  [SPEAKER_04]: The phone company can't be wrong.
[34:43.260 --> 34:44.480]  [SPEAKER_04]: No, of course not.
[34:44.480 --> 34:49.500]  [SPEAKER_04]: So it's quite apparent that either Mr. X made a horrid mistake and...
[34:49.500 --> 34:51.400]  [SPEAKER_04]: Or who knows?
[34:52.120 --> 34:52.360]  [SPEAKER_03]: Mm-hmm.
[34:52.800 --> 34:53.500]  [SPEAKER_04]: But, uh...
[34:53.500 --> 34:57.160]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, one thing we do know for sure is that Mr. X has absolutely no choice in the matter, does he?
[34:57.500 --> 34:57.940]  [SPEAKER_04]: No.
[34:58.100 --> 35:01.100]  [SPEAKER_04]: And suffice to say, they're giving Mr. X the runaround.
[35:01.380 --> 35:01.660]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh-huh.
[35:02.060 --> 35:04.160]  [SPEAKER_04]: And they insist that...
[35:04.160 --> 35:09.980]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, another thing I should mention, too, which I thought was really downright sneaky, was that he received a phone call.
[35:10.100 --> 35:13.460]  [SPEAKER_04]: This was before he reported the fact that the features didn't work.
[35:13.460 --> 35:24.220]  [SPEAKER_04]: He received a phone call from a telemarketer, who was working, of course, for our buddies at New York Telephone, and asked him if he wanted to subscribe to the very features that he should already have.
[35:25.040 --> 35:34.320]  [SPEAKER_04]: And in trying to explain this to the fine gentleman, the gentleman convinced him that all he was was a telemarketer and he could take a note of it.
[35:34.500 --> 35:34.820]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh-huh.
[35:35.120 --> 35:42.040]  [SPEAKER_04]: And in arguing with this gentleman, he requested numerous times if there was anything he could do about it.
[35:42.360 --> 35:44.920]  [SPEAKER_04]: And all he could say was, well, you can subscribe.
[35:46.920 --> 35:48.620]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I make everybody's life a lot easier.
[35:48.720 --> 35:49.260]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, just...
[35:49.260 --> 35:50.320]  [SPEAKER_03]: Fork over the cash.
[35:50.460 --> 35:53.280]  [SPEAKER_04]: Sure, just subscribe for something you should already have.
[35:53.440 --> 35:54.300]  [SPEAKER_04]: Makes plenty of sense.
[35:54.440 --> 35:55.640]  [SPEAKER_03]: So does this story have a happy ending?
[35:56.000 --> 35:57.560]  [SPEAKER_04]: No, in fact, there is no ending.
[35:57.720 --> 35:57.880]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh.
[35:58.480 --> 36:00.400]  [SPEAKER_03]: This is gonna go on for forever, isn't it?
[36:00.400 --> 36:09.640]  [SPEAKER_04]: This is the way things stand right now, is that they're giving Mr. X here the runaround, and he doesn't have his phone smart features, which he has a right to as a taxpayer.
[36:09.780 --> 36:10.120]  [SPEAKER_03]: This is...
[36:10.120 --> 36:11.340]  [SPEAKER_03]: I'd like to open this up to the listeners.
[36:12.040 --> 36:17.320]  [SPEAKER_03]: If you have, and you know, a lot of people won't get through, so I'd like to ask people to write in.
[36:17.480 --> 36:34.160]  [SPEAKER_03]: If you have a story about your particular phone company, whether it be New York Telephone, Southern New England Telephone, New Jersey Bell, what have you, and they're giving you an incredible runaround, well, send it on in to us, and maybe we'll have a contest to see who is getting the biggest runaround from their phone company.
[36:34.600 --> 36:38.540]  [SPEAKER_03]: We're not like the shame on you people, or the consumer reporters who won't fix it.
[36:38.720 --> 36:40.200]  [SPEAKER_03]: I don't think we have the power to do that.
[36:40.320 --> 36:43.160]  [SPEAKER_03]: But we'll talk about it on the air, and we'll let everybody know about it.
[36:43.540 --> 36:57.880]  [SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, I have to think that it hurts the companies more when you dwell upon something and just keep talking about it over and over again, and everybody learns about it, and everybody gets angry at the company, rather than coming in with our undercover cameras,
[36:57.940 --> 37:03.160]  [SPEAKER_03]: which we don't have anyway, and, you know, making it, you know, solve itself in one afternoon.
[37:03.320 --> 37:07.260]  [SPEAKER_03]: I'd rather, you know, let them suffer a bit, too, if they're making other people suffer.
[37:07.400 --> 37:12.540]  [SPEAKER_03]: So, the address to send in your story is WBAI, off the hook.
[37:13.020 --> 37:15.020]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, off the hook care of WBAI, actually.
[37:15.660 --> 37:19.860]  [SPEAKER_03]: 505 8th Avenue, New York, New York, 10018.
[37:22.580 --> 37:24.080]  [SPEAKER_03]: And, you read the papers today.
[37:24.280 --> 37:28.220]  [SPEAKER_03]: There was an interesting story about President Clinton dialing a wrong number.
[37:28.500 --> 37:36.660]  [SPEAKER_03]: He was trying to reach this guy out in, I think, California someplace, and he wound up talking to somebody else, somebody that was a Republican and didn't even vote for him.
[37:36.820 --> 37:38.280]  [SPEAKER_03]: Can you imagine how embarrassing that was?
[37:38.920 --> 37:43.560]  [SPEAKER_03]: You know, saying, oh, I want to speak to Mr. Smith, and it's actually Mr. Jones who doesn't know Mr. Smith.
[37:43.560 --> 37:45.360]  [SPEAKER_03]: And, by the way, I'm President Clinton.
[37:46.640 --> 37:48.460]  [SPEAKER_03]: He must have really been embarrassed.
[37:48.780 --> 37:50.880]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, I'm wondering if he got a wrong number credit.
[37:51.600 --> 37:53.700]  [SPEAKER_03]: You know, I'll bet he totally forgot to do that.
[37:53.820 --> 37:56.160]  [SPEAKER_03]: He made all the papers, but I'll bet he didn't...
[37:56.160 --> 37:58.000]  [SPEAKER_04]: All he need to do is dial 211.
[37:58.260 --> 37:59.980]  [SPEAKER_03]: He probably was using a cellular phone, though.
[38:00.660 --> 38:03.340]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, he was probably on his Air Force One jet flying around.
[38:03.480 --> 38:06.620]  [SPEAKER_03]: In fact, I'll bet people could have listened in on that phone call if they knew what they were doing.
[38:06.900 --> 38:07.080]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[38:07.460 --> 38:10.980]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, okay, we have a lot of phone calls that we should get to.
[38:10.980 --> 38:14.500]  [SPEAKER_03]: So, by all means, let's get to those phone calls.
[38:16.080 --> 38:18.400]  [SPEAKER_03]: 212-279-3400.
[38:19.540 --> 38:23.060]  [SPEAKER_03]: And let's take our first listener phone call here on Off The Hook.
[38:23.280 --> 38:23.920]  [SPEAKER_03]: Good evening.
[38:24.640 --> 38:25.160]  [SPEAKER_12]: Emmanuel.
[38:25.500 --> 38:25.860]  [SPEAKER_03]: How you doing?
[38:27.720 --> 38:28.540]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, go ahead.
[38:28.720 --> 38:33.620]  [SPEAKER_12]: I wish that you would not have that music behind you when you do your monologue.
[38:33.800 --> 38:34.920]  [SPEAKER_03]: You don't like the music, huh?
[38:35.060 --> 38:36.260]  [SPEAKER_12]: So distracting.
[38:36.940 --> 38:40.160]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, it's distracting because it's good music.
[38:40.160 --> 38:40.900]  [SPEAKER_03]: You realize that.
[38:40.980 --> 38:44.680]  [SPEAKER_12]: There was a guy screaming during one particular part of your...
[38:44.680 --> 38:46.120]  [SPEAKER_03]: Do you know who that was screaming?
[38:46.820 --> 38:47.360]  [SPEAKER_03]: Who was it?
[38:47.480 --> 38:51.760]  [SPEAKER_03]: That was Angelo Badalamente, the guy who does the music for Twin Peaks.
[38:51.820 --> 38:54.080]  [SPEAKER_03]: That was the first time we ever got to hear his voice.
[38:54.520 --> 38:56.600]  [SPEAKER_12]: What is the rationale to...
[38:56.600 --> 38:58.900]  [SPEAKER_12]: Is it that you're afraid of dead air or something?
[38:59.100 --> 39:00.080]  [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, no, not at all.
[39:00.300 --> 39:03.000]  [SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, I can prove that if you want.
[39:03.280 --> 39:03.620]  [SPEAKER_12]: How?
[39:08.630 --> 39:09.450]  [SPEAKER_03]: Proof enough?
[39:11.290 --> 39:12.830]  [SPEAKER_03]: You know, he didn't stop talking.
[39:13.530 --> 39:14.090]  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[39:14.830 --> 39:15.430]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, listen...
[39:15.430 --> 39:16.210]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's awfully distracting.
[39:16.210 --> 39:27.990]  [SPEAKER_12]: Look, I listen a lot to shortwave radio, and I try my best to zero in on the station so that I won't have distractions, so I can hear something.
[39:27.990 --> 39:28.390]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh-huh.
[39:28.890 --> 39:34.090]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, you see, what is distracting to some people is actually soothing to others.
[39:34.250 --> 39:35.990]  [SPEAKER_03]: But, you know, I'll go with the majority here.
[39:36.070 --> 39:38.530]  [SPEAKER_03]: If people don't like music, then we won't have music.
[39:38.590 --> 39:40.790]  [SPEAKER_12]: If people don't like music, we like to listen to you.
[39:40.790 --> 39:41.990]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, okay.
[39:42.270 --> 39:44.250]  [SPEAKER_03]: I try to make the music not as loud as me, though.
[39:44.250 --> 39:47.890]  [SPEAKER_12]: The background is not my idea of...
[39:48.370 --> 39:52.730]  [SPEAKER_12]: You might as well be talking from some bar, which would probably be a lot more authentic.
[39:52.950 --> 39:56.990]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, well, that's my natural setting anyway, so it just kind of fits in, you know.
[39:57.050 --> 39:59.650]  [SPEAKER_12]: But at least in this case, I don't think you...
[39:59.650 --> 40:03.010]  [SPEAKER_12]: I don't think it serves your purpose to...
[40:03.370 --> 40:04.850]  [SPEAKER_03]: All right, well, I will take that into account.
[40:05.010 --> 40:06.890]  [SPEAKER_03]: Now, did you have any particular questions or anything?
[40:07.190 --> 40:08.330]  [SPEAKER_12]: No, that's the only thing.
[40:08.630 --> 40:11.390]  [SPEAKER_03]: You hopped on the phone right away just to convey that message, huh?
[40:11.430 --> 40:13.130]  [SPEAKER_12]: I find it very distracting.
[40:13.450 --> 40:13.650]  [SPEAKER_12]: Wow.
[40:14.070 --> 40:15.770]  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, well, I appreciate the remarks.
[40:15.990 --> 40:16.210]  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[40:16.450 --> 40:16.970]  [SPEAKER_03]: Thanks for calling.
[40:17.710 --> 40:19.790]  [SPEAKER_03]: I have to say, though, he got on the phone right away.
[40:20.170 --> 40:24.650]  [SPEAKER_03]: He's been ringing since we first asked for phone calls to convey that bit of information.
[40:24.810 --> 40:27.190]  [SPEAKER_03]: But point taken, all right?
[40:27.370 --> 40:27.710]  [SPEAKER_03]: There.
[40:29.450 --> 40:30.810]  [SPEAKER_03]: But I found it was soothing.
[40:30.810 --> 40:35.570]  [SPEAKER_03]: The guy screaming might have been a bit much, but sometimes people scream, you know?
[40:35.730 --> 40:38.350]  [SPEAKER_03]: You're talking, and people outside in the street are screaming.
[40:38.670 --> 40:40.010]  [SPEAKER_03]: Not much you can do about it, right?
[40:40.790 --> 40:42.310]  [SPEAKER_03]: WBAI is kind of like real life.
[40:42.610 --> 40:43.110]  [SPEAKER_03]: Good evening.
[40:43.450 --> 40:44.330]  [SPEAKER_01]: Hi, two things.
[40:44.470 --> 40:46.330]  [SPEAKER_01]: One is I like the music.
[40:46.510 --> 40:48.010]  [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, so we're tied up, are we?
[40:48.250 --> 40:51.810]  [SPEAKER_01]: And my second point is I have a question for Dr. Kaku.
[40:52.690 --> 40:53.270]  [SPEAKER_03]: All right.
[40:54.010 --> 40:54.570]  [SPEAKER_03]: All right.
[40:54.670 --> 41:00.230]  [SPEAKER_03]: Every week this guy calls up a full two hours after Dr. Kaku is off the air and has a question.
[41:00.230 --> 41:00.810]  [SPEAKER_03]: I have a question.
[41:00.810 --> 41:02.430]  [SPEAKER_03]: I might as well ask you, what is the question?
[41:02.430 --> 41:03.430]  [SPEAKER_03]: I'll convey it to him.
[41:03.530 --> 41:12.870]  [SPEAKER_01]: In terms of Three Mile Island, they were talking about the reactor core and just how much of the enriched plutonium, whatever, is stored in the pools and the reactors.
[41:13.950 --> 41:14.350]  And...
[41:15.210 --> 41:17.190]  [SPEAKER_03]: I knew he couldn't make it through my question.
[41:17.590 --> 41:19.090]  [SPEAKER_03]: He was making it up as we went along.
[41:19.370 --> 41:19.590]  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[41:20.370 --> 41:20.990]  [SPEAKER_03]: Good evening.
[41:20.990 --> 41:21.590]  [SPEAKER_03]: You're on the air.
[41:22.150 --> 41:22.570]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, hello.
[41:22.810 --> 41:23.150]  [SPEAKER_03]: How you doing?
[41:23.390 --> 41:26.210]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, I have a question about the computer.
[41:26.450 --> 41:27.710]  [SPEAKER_09]: I bought Windows.
[41:27.710 --> 41:27.750]  [SPEAKER_09]: Windows.
[41:29.250 --> 41:29.750]  [SPEAKER_03]: Wait a minute.
[41:29.850 --> 41:30.190]  [SPEAKER_03]: Wait a minute.
[41:30.590 --> 41:33.250]  [SPEAKER_03]: The question about computers belongs to the personal computer show.
[41:33.450 --> 41:33.770]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, yeah.
[41:33.850 --> 41:38.030]  [SPEAKER_09]: You know, I tried to call early, but you said if you had any technical follow-ups...
[41:38.030 --> 41:38.150]  [SPEAKER_09]: All right.
[41:38.230 --> 41:40.030]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, at least we're getting closer to this show.
[41:40.210 --> 41:41.290]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's not Ms. Shukaku.
[41:41.410 --> 41:42.450]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's the personal computer show.
[41:42.870 --> 41:44.430]  [SPEAKER_03]: The next call should probably be for this show.
[41:44.510 --> 41:45.230]  [SPEAKER_03]: But okay, what's your question?
[41:45.310 --> 41:45.930]  [SPEAKER_03]: We'll see if we can answer it.
[41:45.930 --> 41:48.290]  [SPEAKER_09]: What happened was I bought Windows and I put it on my machine.
[41:48.490 --> 41:48.770]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh-huh.
[41:48.890 --> 41:49.950]  [SPEAKER_09]: And I think I had to ram this.
[41:50.110 --> 41:53.810]  [SPEAKER_09]: I had to ram this running, and it fouled up the machine.
[41:54.030 --> 41:55.810]  [SPEAKER_09]: It fouled up my hard drive.
[41:55.810 --> 41:56.450]  [SPEAKER_09]: Okay.
[41:56.450 --> 41:57.330]  [SPEAKER_09]: So I used...
[41:59.030 --> 42:00.070]  [SPEAKER_09]: I used...
[42:02.270 --> 42:02.790]  [SPEAKER_09]: Unformat.
[42:03.210 --> 42:03.730]  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[42:04.110 --> 42:04.270]  [SPEAKER_09]: Right?
[42:04.770 --> 42:06.170]  [SPEAKER_09]: To get the program back.
[42:06.330 --> 42:13.210]  [SPEAKER_09]: But what happened was I hadn't put the mirror program on for a year.
[42:13.470 --> 42:13.910]  [SPEAKER_09]: Right?
[42:13.970 --> 42:16.290]  [SPEAKER_09]: So it brought back all the programs from a year ago.
[42:16.290 --> 42:20.310]  [SPEAKER_09]: And I still have some tax programs and stuff that I'm trying to get out.
[42:20.550 --> 42:20.870]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh-huh.
[42:21.230 --> 42:24.430]  [SPEAKER_09]: Now, if I use Undelete, can I get those programs back?
[42:24.810 --> 42:29.110]  [SPEAKER_03]: If they're there, Undelete, the Norton Utility Undelete?
[42:29.510 --> 42:29.990]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well...
[42:29.990 --> 42:31.490]  [SPEAKER_03]: Or the DOS-5 Undelete?
[42:31.990 --> 42:32.450]  [SPEAKER_09]: Same thing.
[42:32.690 --> 42:34.090]  [SPEAKER_03]: No, there's actually two different programs.
[42:34.170 --> 42:35.790]  [SPEAKER_03]: One is on Erash, one is Undelete.
[42:35.950 --> 42:37.030]  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm not sure which is which.
[42:37.230 --> 42:37.470]  [SPEAKER_09]: Okay.
[42:37.690 --> 42:39.610]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, the one I...
[42:40.210 --> 42:51.850]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, I'm trying to use Undelete because the book says use to use Unformat or Undelete in order to recover files from, you know, corrupted disks or a disk that you've made a mistake on.
[42:51.910 --> 42:55.710]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, if I'm not mistaken, the programs will tell you.
[42:55.870 --> 43:00.830]  [SPEAKER_03]: It will say that you have a good chance of recovering this file or a poor chance or no chance at all.
[43:00.950 --> 43:01.310]  [SPEAKER_09]: Exactly.
[43:01.570 --> 43:01.790]  [SPEAKER_03]: All right.
[43:01.870 --> 43:02.630]  [SPEAKER_03]: So if it says you...
[43:02.630 --> 43:04.030]  [SPEAKER_03]: Is it saying you have a good chance?
[43:05.330 --> 43:06.590]  [SPEAKER_03]: Are you running through the program?
[43:07.510 --> 43:07.870]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well...
[43:07.870 --> 43:09.690]  [SPEAKER_09]: No, I'm not running through the program, but...
[43:09.690 --> 43:09.870]  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[43:09.930 --> 43:12.550]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, you can't hurt anything by running the program and answering no.
[43:12.750 --> 43:14.730]  [SPEAKER_03]: It wouldn't ask you if you want to recover a file.
[43:14.730 --> 43:21.150]  [SPEAKER_03]: Actually, you can't hurt anything even if you recover all the files because it's not going to erase something that currently exists on your computer.
[43:21.390 --> 43:21.510]  [SPEAKER_09]: Okay.
[43:21.630 --> 43:31.730]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, but the question I want to know, right, is if I use the Unformat with the backslash U, which is not using the mirror file, will the programs that I had come back?
[43:33.230 --> 43:35.870]  [SPEAKER_03]: If you haven't written over them, there might be some.
[43:35.970 --> 43:38.170]  [SPEAKER_03]: Now, have you used this computer system a lot in the last year?
[43:38.170 --> 43:38.730]  [SPEAKER_09]: No, no.
[43:38.790 --> 43:42.530]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, since the problem happened, I haven't done any writing, reading or writing.
[43:42.770 --> 43:42.990]  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[43:43.370 --> 43:45.290]  [SPEAKER_09]: All right, so they should come back, basically, right?
[43:45.950 --> 43:48.070]  [SPEAKER_03]: There's a good chance, but I suggest trying it.
[43:48.290 --> 43:48.690]  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, thank you.
[43:48.790 --> 43:49.710]  [SPEAKER_03]: And not worrying about it too much.
[43:49.970 --> 43:50.890]  [SPEAKER_09]: All right, thanks a lot.
[43:50.990 --> 43:51.510]  [SPEAKER_03]: All right, good luck.
[43:51.590 --> 43:51.910]  [SPEAKER_03]: Have a good one.
[43:51.910 --> 43:55.150]  [SPEAKER_03]: But for those of you with computer questions, this is not the computer show.
[43:55.370 --> 43:58.450]  [SPEAKER_03]: The computer show used to be on at this time, but it's on from 9 to 10.
[43:59.110 --> 44:02.890]  [SPEAKER_03]: And give a call to them, and they'll have a much better answer for you.
[44:02.930 --> 44:14.210]  [SPEAKER_03]: We're more involved in the movement of high-tech telephones and individual access to the technology of the future and things like that.
[44:15.910 --> 44:17.510]  [SPEAKER_03]: 279-3400, area code 212.
[44:17.850 --> 44:18.310]  [SPEAKER_03]: Good evening.
[44:18.450 --> 44:18.830]  [SPEAKER_03]: You're on the air.
[44:20.090 --> 44:21.250]  [SPEAKER_05]: Hi, I had a question.
[44:21.250 --> 44:22.170]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, go ahead.
[44:22.250 --> 44:22.510]  [SPEAKER_05]: Questions.
[44:23.410 --> 44:26.310]  [SPEAKER_05]: Steve Jackson, who is he, and what was...
[44:26.810 --> 44:28.770]  [SPEAKER_05]: Do you know where I can get my hands on 2600?
[44:29.330 --> 44:32.470]  [SPEAKER_03]: I'll give you a phone number for 2600, and I'll tell you who Steve Jackson is as well.
[44:33.510 --> 44:35.070]  [SPEAKER_03]: And I'll tell you on the radio, okay?
[44:35.890 --> 44:36.830]  [SPEAKER_05]: Wait, I'm going to be on the radio?
[44:37.030 --> 44:40.010]  [SPEAKER_03]: No, you're on the radio now, but I'm going to hang up and tell you over the radio.
[44:40.470 --> 44:40.750]  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[44:40.970 --> 44:41.250]  [SPEAKER_03]: All right.
[44:42.370 --> 44:47.910]  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, first of all, if you want to contact 2600 Magazine, you can call them at 516-751-2600.
[44:47.910 --> 44:51.750]  [SPEAKER_03]: That should answer all the questions that you have concerning that.
[44:52.570 --> 44:58.170]  [SPEAKER_03]: Steve Jackson was a, or still is actually, a publisher of games out of Austin, Texas.
[44:58.170 --> 45:02.810]  [SPEAKER_03]: He was raided by the Secret Service back in 1990, the spring of 1990.
[45:02.810 --> 45:04.290]  [SPEAKER_03]: In fact, March 1st, 1990.
[45:05.570 --> 45:10.390]  [SPEAKER_03]: And he was raided simply because he had a computer hacker who worked for him.
[45:10.490 --> 45:22.010]  [SPEAKER_03]: And the Secret Service believed that he was running some kind of illegitimate operation out of his organization, which it was later proved that he was not doing anything of the sort.
[45:22.870 --> 45:36.710]  [SPEAKER_03]: But the resulting raid, the raid that happened on that particular date, robbed the company of all their computers, brought the organization virtually to a standstill, and nearly put them out of business.
[45:37.210 --> 45:42.350]  [SPEAKER_03]: Steve Jackson has brought a suit against the Secret Service for this particular raid.
[45:42.350 --> 45:50.470]  [SPEAKER_03]: A trial was held in Austin a couple of weeks ago, took three days, and the judge has not yet returned a verdict.
[45:51.210 --> 45:55.410]  [SPEAKER_03]: That's who Steve Jackson is, that's what he's going through, and that's how it affects us.
[45:55.770 --> 46:02.010]  [SPEAKER_03]: We've spent quite a bit of time talking about this, and we'll spend more time talking about it when events warrant.
[46:02.370 --> 46:04.430]  [SPEAKER_03]: Right now we're still waiting for that verdict to come down.
[46:04.510 --> 46:05.650]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's been about three weeks now.
[46:06.210 --> 46:07.790]  [SPEAKER_03]: Good evening, you're on Off The Hook.
[46:08.470 --> 46:08.830]  Yeah.
[46:09.290 --> 46:10.930]  As far as your music...
[46:10.930 --> 46:11.270]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh-huh.
[46:11.410 --> 46:12.410]  [SPEAKER_03]: The music is...
[46:16.840 --> 46:17.460]  Bring it in and out.
[46:17.700 --> 46:18.160]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, thank you.
[46:18.260 --> 46:18.460]  [SPEAKER_03]: Thanks.
[46:22.230 --> 46:23.650]  [SPEAKER_03]: What kind of phone are you on?
[46:23.830 --> 46:27.590]  [SPEAKER_11]: I am freezing to death at a payphone up here in the Bronx.
[46:27.810 --> 46:28.050]  [SPEAKER_11]: Really?
[46:28.430 --> 46:28.630]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[46:28.730 --> 46:29.010]  [SPEAKER_11]: Wow.
[46:29.130 --> 46:30.910]  [SPEAKER_03]: Is it a co-cut, or is it a regular payphone?
[46:31.010 --> 46:32.310]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's a NYNEX.
[46:32.470 --> 46:32.770]  [SPEAKER_03]: Really?
[46:33.150 --> 46:33.310]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[46:33.410 --> 46:35.410]  [SPEAKER_03]: Because the mouthpiece is making you sound very tinny.
[46:35.550 --> 46:37.550]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's almost like you're a thought inside my head.
[46:37.930 --> 46:38.290]  [SPEAKER_11]: Vibrating?
[46:38.290 --> 46:41.290]  [SPEAKER_11]: I'll try to keep perfectly still to reduce...
[46:41.290 --> 46:42.750]  [SPEAKER_11]: Is this better if I get closer?
[46:43.030 --> 46:45.690]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, I don't think you can get much better, but we can understand you just fine.
[46:46.230 --> 46:46.710]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay.
[46:47.050 --> 46:49.210]  [SPEAKER_03]: So, what's your question before you...
[46:49.210 --> 46:50.230]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's about 800 numbers.
[46:50.370 --> 46:50.890]  [SPEAKER_03]: First of all...
[46:50.890 --> 46:51.090]  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[46:51.750 --> 47:04.340]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, is the amount of time that must transpire from the moment the, uh, person picks up, if someone calls, where they will be charged?
[47:04.760 --> 47:06.240]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, this is for an 800 number?
[47:06.420 --> 47:06.820]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
[47:07.140 --> 47:09.600]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, you know, it varies from company to company.
[47:09.600 --> 47:14.820]  [SPEAKER_03]: Now, I happen to know for, for sure, some companies, if you call and hang up immediately, they do not bill you.
[47:15.000 --> 47:18.920]  [SPEAKER_03]: Other companies do bill you, even if you pick up for a millisecond and hang up again.
[47:19.500 --> 47:24.360]  [SPEAKER_03]: And some companies, although not very many anymore, bill you even when it starts ringing.
[47:25.180 --> 47:27.060]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, I think all of them would like to do that.
[47:27.060 --> 47:28.100]  [SPEAKER_03]: But, um...
[47:28.100 --> 47:33.740]  [SPEAKER_11]: The companies, though, that bill you, uh, that give you a certain amount of time, is it more than, like, three or four seconds or so?
[47:33.920 --> 47:40.660]  [SPEAKER_03]: No, I think, uh, once, once you pass one or two seconds, uh, there's almost no chance that, that, you know, you have a free call at that point.
[47:40.880 --> 47:45.360]  [SPEAKER_03]: Some companies, though, bill you in six-second increments or, or other increments of various kinds.
[47:45.980 --> 47:51.360]  [SPEAKER_03]: But, um, nearly all of them will bill you at, to some degree after, say, three seconds or so.
[47:51.360 --> 47:52.320]  [SPEAKER_03]: Right, okay,
[47:56.350 --> 47:59.630]  50 cents rate, whether you're on for 30 seconds with time.
[48:04.320 --> 48:05.580]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, no, the cost increases with time.
[48:06.000 --> 48:09.660]  [SPEAKER_03]: The vast majority that I've seen of, uh, 800 services.
[48:10.220 --> 48:13.500]  [SPEAKER_03]: Every, every call from every location is, is timed.
[48:13.680 --> 48:17.460]  [SPEAKER_03]: You can't stay on for, uh, long periods without getting billed.
[48:18.420 --> 48:20.200]  [SPEAKER_11]: Right, and, uh, the last question.
[48:20.420 --> 48:20.540]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[48:29.800 --> 48:30.800]  [SPEAKER_03]: you know...
[48:30.800 --> 48:31.220]  [SPEAKER_03]: That's true.
[48:31.420 --> 48:32.320]  ...you, their office hours.
[48:32.540 --> 48:36.380]  [SPEAKER_11]: When you get that message you've seen, they are all still being charged, I assume.
[48:36.380 --> 48:39.260]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, they are, except they have no control at that point.
[48:39.360 --> 48:41.660]  [SPEAKER_03]: They can't hang up on you because it's a machine picking up.
[48:41.840 --> 48:55.820]  [SPEAKER_03]: What, what happens, what a lot of hackers do, a lot of hackers call corporations late at night, and they find that their, their voicemail systems pick up instead of their switchboard operator, and they can transfer themselves around to their heart's content inside the voicemail system,
[48:55.820 --> 49:00.540]  [SPEAKER_03]: and occasionally can even find accounts that way, and set up their own voicemail boxes.
[49:00.960 --> 49:04.320]  [SPEAKER_03]: So a lot of companies are, uh, are wide open to this kind of abuse.
[49:06.000 --> 49:07.540]  [SPEAKER_11]: Three minutes has ended.
[49:08.680 --> 49:09.940]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I'm sorry to hear that.
[49:10.420 --> 49:11.000]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay, bye.
[49:11.120 --> 49:12.000]  [SPEAKER_11]: If you can hear me, bye.
[49:12.080 --> 49:13.040]  [SPEAKER_11]: You've answered all my questions.
[49:13.220 --> 49:13.520]  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[49:14.020 --> 49:14.680]  [SPEAKER_03]: Thanks very much.
[49:14.780 --> 49:15.100]  [SPEAKER_03]: All right.
[49:15.580 --> 49:15.920]  [SPEAKER_03]: Take care.
[49:16.980 --> 49:24.140]  [SPEAKER_03]: No doubt the phone cops are already on their way up there to see who's running away from a payphone in the Bronx, without putting in the money for the three minutes of overtime.
[49:25.360 --> 49:26.580]  [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, pretty scary.
[49:27.300 --> 49:28.460]  [SPEAKER_03]: Good evening, you're on Off the Hook.
[49:28.460 --> 49:29.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, good evening.
[49:30.060 --> 49:31.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, first of all, I like the music.
[49:31.560 --> 49:32.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: I think the music is great.
[49:32.860 --> 49:35.260]  [SPEAKER_03]: All right, sounds like it's a landslide then in favor of the music.
[49:35.720 --> 49:37.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I, um, I want to ask one quick question.
[49:38.040 --> 49:39.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'll ask and I'll hang up and listen to your response.
[49:40.040 --> 49:40.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[49:40.420 --> 49:54.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: Can you, is there anything that, uh, the consumer should be aware of in regards to the voicemail and, um, uh, yeah, is there anything that consumers should be aware of in regards to privacy?
[49:54.260 --> 49:55.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I'll hang up and listen.
[49:55.140 --> 49:56.940]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, uh, actually, what kind of voicemail are you referring to?
[49:57.140 --> 49:57.700]  [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, dear.
[49:58.140 --> 50:00.300]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, what do you think he was referring to, Fiverr?
[50:00.680 --> 50:01.700]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, I don't know.
[50:01.700 --> 50:03.420]  [SPEAKER_04]: New York telephone voicemail or, uh...
[50:03.420 --> 50:12.300]  [SPEAKER_04]: If that's the case, then, uh, the only thing he'd have to worry about is if, uh, he's able to retrieve his messages remotely, which you usually can, someone else getting the pin.
[50:12.300 --> 50:15.980]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I don't, I don't like New York, uh, telephone voicemail from what I've heard of it.
[50:16.380 --> 50:19.420]  [SPEAKER_03]: Um, you can only, uh, get messages from a certain phone number.
[50:19.520 --> 50:20.080]  [SPEAKER_03]: Is that how it works?
[50:20.320 --> 50:25.400]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, I, I forget the, I think there's a difference between simple call answering and full-fledged voicemail.
[50:25.560 --> 50:25.740]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[50:26.880 --> 50:30.960]  [SPEAKER_03]: But as far as actual voicemail systems, there aren't all that many available for consumers.
[50:31.940 --> 50:43.300]  [SPEAKER_03]: Um, there should be more, but, uh, there really aren't all that many, so I can't really recommend anything at this point because most of the ones that are in service are used by big, huge corporations and there's no way a person could afford those anyway.
[50:44.020 --> 50:50.580]  [SPEAKER_03]: Um, but as far as, as hackers go, I'm sure they have many favorite voicemail systems that they would like to recommend to various people.
[50:50.720 --> 50:51.960]  [SPEAKER_03]: I know Meridian Mail is a favorite.
[50:52.580 --> 50:54.380]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, Rome's Phone Mail is also another favorite.
[50:54.820 --> 51:02.040]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, so people that get into those systems can probably tell us the, uh, the pros and cons of, um, of them, but not from a consumer point of view, unfortunately.
[51:02.980 --> 51:03.520]  [SPEAKER_03]: Good evening.
[51:03.660 --> 51:04.160]  [SPEAKER_03]: You're on Off The Hook.
[51:04.820 --> 51:05.180]  [SPEAKER_10]: Hi.
[51:05.440 --> 51:08.840]  [SPEAKER_10]: Um, I'd like to tell you one more vote for the music.
[51:08.840 --> 51:09.520]  [SPEAKER_10]: It was great.
[51:09.740 --> 51:10.000]  [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you.
[51:10.340 --> 51:14.700]  [SPEAKER_10]: Um, the, uh, I remember you mentioned passing away a while back.
[51:15.160 --> 51:17.920]  [SPEAKER_10]: Um, silver box tones, I think you called them.
[51:18.080 --> 51:20.980]  [SPEAKER_10]: It was a way to get free calls, um, on payphones.
[51:21.680 --> 51:23.560]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, no, I think you're talking about red box tones.
[51:23.700 --> 51:28.700]  [SPEAKER_03]: Silver box tones are the extra four, uh, buttons that every Touch-Tone phone is capable of having.
[51:28.980 --> 51:29.360]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay.
[51:29.800 --> 51:30.520]  [SPEAKER_03]: A, B, C, and D.
[51:30.540 --> 51:32.120]  [SPEAKER_10]: I was wondering if you could explain that a little more.
[51:32.400 --> 51:35.140]  [SPEAKER_10]: Um, I've heard about all these boxes, you know, what exactly are they?
[51:35.140 --> 51:37.400]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, basically, you've used a payphone, right?
[51:37.760 --> 51:37.960]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
[51:38.100 --> 51:39.360]  [SPEAKER_03]: You've dropped a quarter into a payphone.
[51:39.420 --> 51:41.180]  [SPEAKER_03]: Have you heard five little beeps when you do that?
[51:41.400 --> 51:41.580]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh huh.
[51:41.820 --> 51:43.000]  [SPEAKER_03]: No, those are red box tones.
[51:43.140 --> 51:55.100]  [SPEAKER_03]: If you can, if you can use those five beeps and send them down the phone line, in effect, many phones believe, many phone, uh, companies are fooled by this, and believe that you've actually put a quarter in.
[51:55.120 --> 51:56.980]  [SPEAKER_03]: That's as simple as red boxing gets.
[51:56.980 --> 52:00.200]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's similar, similar to like a speed dial or something like that, right?
[52:00.440 --> 52:01.200]  [SPEAKER_03]: No, not really.
[52:01.600 --> 52:03.540]  [SPEAKER_03]: Um, speed dialing, you're actually dialing a number.
[52:03.840 --> 52:06.440]  [SPEAKER_03]: You, you would, you would dial the number on the payphone.
[52:06.620 --> 52:08.020]  [SPEAKER_03]: The payphone would ask you for money.
[52:08.140 --> 52:09.160]  [SPEAKER_03]: It would say 50 cents, please.
[52:09.420 --> 52:09.680]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[52:09.680 --> 52:11.780]  [SPEAKER_03]: You would hold up your red box or whatever.
[52:11.800 --> 52:18.140]  [SPEAKER_03]: You can hold up a tape recorder with those tones on it and play it as many times as you want until the desired amount is entered.
[52:18.880 --> 52:19.160]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay.
[52:19.640 --> 52:19.880]  [SPEAKER_03]: Now I should...
[52:19.880 --> 52:20.100]  [SPEAKER_03]: All right.
[52:20.220 --> 52:20.680]  [SPEAKER_03]: Thanks a lot.
[52:20.800 --> 52:21.020]  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[52:21.320 --> 52:21.780]  [SPEAKER_03]: Thanks for calling.
[52:22.140 --> 52:24.620]  [SPEAKER_03]: I should point out, uh, folks, this is illegal.
[52:24.980 --> 52:27.280]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's, it's not legal to, um, to do this.
[52:27.400 --> 52:31.640]  [SPEAKER_03]: So, uh, we don't recommend doing that kind of thing, but we will explain to you how it works.
[52:32.220 --> 52:37.760]  [SPEAKER_03]: And we will say that it's very widespread and that phone companies don't seem to be able to do much about it.
[52:38.060 --> 52:39.980]  [SPEAKER_03]: At least, uh, not in the foreseeable future.
[52:40.060 --> 52:40.520]  [SPEAKER_03]: What do you think, Fiber?
[52:40.580 --> 52:42.140]  [SPEAKER_03]: Do you think this is going to end soon?
[52:42.320 --> 52:45.120]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm sure it'll last for a good while longer, but, uh...
[52:45.120 --> 52:47.480]  [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, this, this must be costing them more than blue boxes.
[52:47.840 --> 52:48.300]  [SPEAKER_03]: Don't you think?
[52:49.500 --> 52:55.760]  [SPEAKER_04]: Conceivably, but a lot of the times people, uh, were illegally using blue boxes originally to make a long distance calls.
[52:55.920 --> 52:57.180]  [SPEAKER_04]: They tended to call around the world.
[52:57.380 --> 52:57.620]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh-huh.
[52:58.000 --> 53:04.160]  [SPEAKER_04]: And it tends to be a little infeasible to, uh, use a red box to, uh, make a call around the world.
[53:04.300 --> 53:05.100]  [SPEAKER_03]: But you could do it.
[53:05.400 --> 53:08.540]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I suppose you could, but, uh, it'd take an incredible amount of time.
[53:08.540 --> 53:14.680]  [SPEAKER_03]: The thing about, about red boxes, though, you can, you can, you can find out when somebody's using a blue box on the line.
[53:14.820 --> 53:16.780]  [SPEAKER_03]: You can have a 2600 hertz detector.
[53:17.760 --> 53:22.800]  [SPEAKER_03]: But, how do you determine if somebody is actually putting a quarter into a payphone or playing a tone?
[53:23.380 --> 53:27.480]  [SPEAKER_03]: How is, how do you possibly know that until you come to collect the money and find out that none of it's there?
[53:27.480 --> 53:29.600]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, you, I can't answer that question, actually.
[53:29.820 --> 53:42.500]  [SPEAKER_04]: And it's, uh, it seems that the majority of people out there that are using this simple modification to the Radio Shack tone dialer can easily be caught if they so decide to do this, because the tones are simply wrong.
[53:42.740 --> 53:43.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh-huh.
[53:43.220 --> 53:59.660]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's just sheer coincidence that when you swap the crystal inside to change the frequencies, that, uh, the frequencies are within proximity of the two frequencies that are used, although they are not the two frequencies, they're reasonable, they're reasonably off tune.
[53:59.900 --> 54:12.360]  [SPEAKER_04]: And if, if that weren't enough, the fact that the tones are played back as fast as the tone dialer would normally dial Touch-Tones from memory, the five tones are played back much, much slower than they normally would be.
[54:12.600 --> 54:12.820]  [SPEAKER_03]: All right.
[54:13.580 --> 54:17.640]  [SPEAKER_03]: So you think they might be able to, uh, to look out for those particular tones?
[54:17.840 --> 54:31.740]  [SPEAKER_04]: I think they could, considering that, uh, the Operator Service Position System, OSPS, which is the, uh, successor to the original TSPS, are run on, uh, five ESS's, and five ESS's are digital switches.
[54:32.440 --> 54:32.640]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh-huh.
[54:32.720 --> 54:37.620]  [SPEAKER_04]: And, uh, of course, in order to synthesize tones and detect them, they use digital signal processing.
[54:38.800 --> 54:49.120]  [SPEAKER_04]: And, uh, this is the technology that's, uh, easily can be put to work to detect tones that are simply not within the specified, uh, uh, uh, limits of what they should be.
[54:49.240 --> 54:53.020]  [SPEAKER_03]: But it is possible to, uh, to completely duplicate those tones, isn't it?
[54:53.020 --> 54:53.740]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, yeah, sure.
[54:53.900 --> 54:57.500]  [SPEAKER_04]: If you, you know what the frequencies are, and you know what the timings should be, sure.
[54:58.580 --> 55:01.060]  [SPEAKER_03]: I believe we've printed that information, actually, in 2600.
[55:01.260 --> 55:04.520]  [SPEAKER_03]: So, uh, if people really need to know that, they can do it.
[55:04.580 --> 55:06.040]  [SPEAKER_03]: But again, it's not legal.
[55:06.280 --> 55:10.960]  [SPEAKER_03]: And, uh, you could be facing a lot of trouble if somebody finds out what you're doing if you do that kind of thing.
[55:11.060 --> 55:13.040]  [SPEAKER_03]: But definitely know how the system works.
[55:13.340 --> 55:14.500]  [SPEAKER_03]: That's important in itself.
[55:14.720 --> 55:15.640]  [SPEAKER_03]: Let's take another phone call.
[55:15.640 --> 55:16.580]  [SPEAKER_03]: Good evening.
[55:16.740 --> 55:17.240]  [SPEAKER_03]: You're on the radio.
[55:18.140 --> 55:18.660]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, good evening.
[55:19.280 --> 55:35.300]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, for the ignorant part of your, uh, uh, people that hear you, don't you, would you, would you be having a, uh, uh, component on your program that will, uh, that will view magazines and books related to your subject?
[55:35.680 --> 55:37.700]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, you mean kind of like a hacker reading list?
[55:38.720 --> 55:39.080]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[55:39.420 --> 55:39.760]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[55:40.000 --> 55:46.960]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, you know, we, we've done that, uh, a couple of times in, in 2600 where we've come out with lists of articles and books that people should read if they're interested.
[55:46.960 --> 55:49.620]  [SPEAKER_08]: As a regular basis, as a, you know, as a component.
[55:50.040 --> 55:55.840]  [SPEAKER_03]: Um, not as a regular basis, but we might do that as, as some kind of a, uh, you know, a show at one point.
[55:55.840 --> 55:56.780]  [SPEAKER_03]: Because it is a good idea.
[55:56.940 --> 55:59.540]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's something that, uh, would help a lot of people, I believe.
[56:00.180 --> 56:03.580]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, just going over various things that people should reference material, right?
[56:03.780 --> 56:04.400]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, exactly.
[56:04.600 --> 56:04.760]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[56:05.260 --> 56:07.140]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, you know, we'll take that into consideration.
[56:07.140 --> 56:09.940]  [SPEAKER_03]: That's something that we could very, uh, very well do in the near future.
[56:10.320 --> 56:11.180]  [SPEAKER_08]: And, uh, just a comment.
[56:11.360 --> 56:15.160]  [SPEAKER_08]: I think that your, your music is well modulated and it's a good format.
[56:15.640 --> 56:15.840]  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[56:16.020 --> 56:16.700]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, thank you very much.
[56:16.780 --> 56:16.980]  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[56:17.220 --> 56:17.580]  [SPEAKER_03]: Take care.
[56:19.340 --> 56:20.060]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well modulated.
[56:20.180 --> 56:20.540]  [SPEAKER_03]: You hear that?
[56:21.060 --> 56:21.400]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[56:21.480 --> 56:24.660]  [SPEAKER_03]: That's, uh, that's what music should be is well modulated.
[56:25.880 --> 56:26.240]  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[56:27.180 --> 56:28.240]  [SPEAKER_03]: Program is off the hook.
[56:28.540 --> 56:33.900]  [SPEAKER_03]: We've got another couple of minutes, so let's see if we can, uh, go through any more phone calls, any more questions out there.
[56:34.160 --> 56:34.560]  [SPEAKER_03]: Good evening.
[56:35.240 --> 56:37.600]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, Manuel, uh, just one more vote for music.
[56:37.960 --> 56:41.240]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, Twin Peaks soundtrack, uh, song, a question in the world of blue.
[56:41.580 --> 56:43.360]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, I mean, fading in great.
[56:43.540 --> 56:44.260]  [SPEAKER_07]: I mean...
[56:44.260 --> 56:45.420]  [SPEAKER_03]: You're a real Twin Peaks fan.
[56:45.560 --> 56:45.920]  [SPEAKER_03]: I can tell.
[56:46.180 --> 56:52.420]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, uh, yeah, um, not that I don't have a life or anything, but, uh, Laura Palmer supposedly died on today, February 24th.
[56:52.520 --> 56:55.640]  [SPEAKER_07]: But, you know, hey, I don't, you know, I have better things to do than know these things, right?
[56:55.640 --> 56:56.340]  [SPEAKER_03]: That's incredible.
[56:56.460 --> 56:57.220]  [SPEAKER_03]: I didn't even know that.
[56:57.380 --> 56:58.520]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, anyway, uh...
[56:58.520 --> 57:00.800]  [SPEAKER_03]: I must be tied into this somehow in ways I don't understand.
[57:01.580 --> 57:05.340]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, back to the, uh, world of, uh, computer underground and away from David Lynch.
[57:05.340 --> 57:05.900]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.
[57:06.120 --> 57:11.740]  [SPEAKER_07]: Um, I picked up a copy of, uh, Cyberpunk, uh, by Katie Hafner and Mark, uh, something or other.
[57:12.000 --> 57:12.540]  [SPEAKER_03]: John Markoff.
[57:12.820 --> 57:13.400]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, that's right.
[57:14.440 --> 57:18.860]  [SPEAKER_07]: And, uh, I was also reading some, um, Bruce Sterling, Gibson, et cetera.
[57:19.160 --> 57:24.080]  [SPEAKER_07]: How do you think the media has, uh, has, uh, in portraying the underground?
[57:24.360 --> 57:33.760]  [SPEAKER_07]: Do you think it's improved in the last couple of years or it's, uh, still the mischievous, evil, rebel teenager, uh, tampering with technology?
[57:33.760 --> 57:35.180]  [SPEAKER_07]: Do you think it's improved or what?
[57:35.200 --> 57:39.180]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, you know, I have to say there, there's some people out there that have a clue.
[57:39.520 --> 57:42.720]  [SPEAKER_03]: Some people that, that can cover, uh, cover things very well.
[57:43.020 --> 57:44.660]  [SPEAKER_03]: Look to the Village Voice, for examples.
[57:44.980 --> 57:45.120]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[57:45.600 --> 57:50.440]  [SPEAKER_03]: Other people, uh, look to Channel 4, for examples, can't seem to get it right at all.
[57:50.900 --> 57:52.160]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, and make...
[57:52.160 --> 57:57.160]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, well, there are, uh, four extras on, uh, child pornography rings operating around...
[57:57.160 --> 57:58.260]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, things like that.
[57:58.340 --> 58:05.640]  [SPEAKER_03]: Things that make it seem like, uh, computer bulletin boards are, are, are evil tools, when in actuality they're just neutral tools and people use them for both good and evil.
[58:06.140 --> 58:09.200]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, and that's, that's the way it is and we can't change that.
[58:09.380 --> 58:09.760]  [SPEAKER_07]: That's right.
[58:09.880 --> 58:18.380]  [SPEAKER_07]: But, uh, media is always a little bit of a circus ring and what sells the papers and, uh, gets people to tune in will always be, so, uh...
[58:18.380 --> 58:21.860]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, it's true, but you know, the, the, the truth is pretty fascinating in itself.
[58:21.860 --> 58:27.360]  [SPEAKER_03]: And if, uh, if they were as tied in as we are to, uh, the way things really are, I think they'd be even more fascinated.
[58:27.560 --> 58:31.780]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, did you happen to, uh, catch the latest version of Time Magazine and it's, uh, cyberpunk?
[58:32.100 --> 58:33.780]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, the one that smells when you open it.
[58:34.100 --> 58:40.480]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, yeah, I did see the way they're, they're linking, uh, things like drugs like ecstasy and clubs and limelight.
[58:40.640 --> 58:48.860]  [SPEAKER_07]: They're just linking the whole thing to, uh, the subculture and, and, uh, I could be wrong, but I thought that cyberpunk was more of a fictional culture.
[58:49.300 --> 58:51.140]  [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, what are your views on that?
[58:51.260 --> 58:59.340]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, it is a fictional culture, but a lot of people like to be drawn into fiction, you know, sort of like, uh, the Twin Peaks type of thing, except they feel like they can actually live it.
[59:00.000 --> 59:08.340]  [SPEAKER_03]: Um, you know, cyberpunk is all fine and fine and cool, but, uh, you know, it is, uh, it is fictitious the way that it's being portrayed.
[59:09.160 --> 59:16.020]  [SPEAKER_03]: Um, the real computer world is, is much more fascinating because, you know, anything can happen and anything is happening right now.
[59:16.020 --> 59:19.700]  [SPEAKER_03]: I wish I could go into it a little bit more, but, uh, we're at pretty much the last few seconds.
[59:20.380 --> 59:20.660]  [SPEAKER_03]: All right.
[59:20.660 --> 59:23.640]  [SPEAKER_03]: But, uh, don't believe what you see in the, in the, in the papers or on TV.
[59:23.920 --> 59:26.100]  [SPEAKER_03]: The, uh, the real facts are so much stranger.
[59:26.280 --> 59:27.040]  [SPEAKER_07]: Interesting of the truth there.
[59:27.060 --> 59:27.320]  [SPEAKER_07]: All right.
[59:27.420 --> 59:28.000]  [SPEAKER_07]: So I'll let you go.
[59:28.140 --> 59:28.340]  [SPEAKER_07]: All right.
[59:29.040 --> 59:29.440]  [SPEAKER_07]: Great show.
[59:29.660 --> 59:30.200]  [SPEAKER_03]: Thanks for calling.