Off The Hook - 1993-04-14

[00:10.870 --> 00:21.970]  [SPEAKER_18]: And you're listening to radio station WBAI in New York, where the time is just about 10 o'clock, and that means it's time for Off the Hook.
[04:11.840 --> 04:18.520]  [SPEAKER_18]: It feels like one of those concerts, you know, where they just keep playing the music, and you're waiting for the actual concert to begin, and they just keep stringing you along.
[04:18.520 --> 04:23.560]  [SPEAKER_18]: It's kind of almost as complicated, too, because of all the things we have to set up here to get things working just right.
[04:23.660 --> 04:33.360]  [SPEAKER_18]: But we're pretty much ready to go here, Off the Hook, the program about high-tech and the many perils that we face every day of our lives.
[04:33.500 --> 04:35.800]  [SPEAKER_18]: And sometimes we don't even know about it.
[04:35.940 --> 04:40.060]  [SPEAKER_18]: We're here to help, and we've got a very interesting program lined up tonight.
[04:41.620 --> 04:44.960]  [SPEAKER_18]: Hopefully a lot of you will learn some things out of it.
[04:45.860 --> 04:51.380]  [SPEAKER_18]: Okay, well, talk about a couple of new telephone company things first.
[04:52.300 --> 04:54.020]  [SPEAKER_18]: Well, I got my features today.
[04:54.460 --> 04:59.740]  [SPEAKER_18]: Yes, my telephone company features and fiber optic, you didn't get your features today, did you?
[05:00.060 --> 05:03.220]  [SPEAKER_20]: No, apparently we're not high-tech enough in where I live in Queens.
[05:03.460 --> 05:12.300]  [SPEAKER_18]: It's kind of funny, you know, how both you and I are literally the last, among the last people to get the things that we would want to play with the most.
[05:12.300 --> 05:20.460]  [SPEAKER_18]: But to give you an example, today, I finally was able to, for the first time, play with Call, Return, what's it called?
[05:20.580 --> 05:24.340]  [SPEAKER_18]: Return, Busy, all these high-tech names.
[05:24.500 --> 05:25.020]  [SPEAKER_18]: Repeat Call.
[05:25.320 --> 05:26.460]  [SPEAKER_18]: Repeat Call, yes.
[05:27.200 --> 05:30.680]  [SPEAKER_18]: *66, Repeat Call, if somebody is busy, you call them.
[05:31.160 --> 05:33.480]  [SPEAKER_18]: *69, to return a call.
[05:34.340 --> 05:37.360]  [SPEAKER_18]: *86, to cancel a...
[05:38.200 --> 05:39.120]  [SPEAKER_18]: What was it called again?
[05:39.440 --> 05:40.200]  [SPEAKER_18]: Repeat Call.
[05:40.240 --> 05:40.940]  [SPEAKER_18]: Repeat Call, thank you.
[05:40.980 --> 05:41.700]  [SPEAKER_18]: I have trouble with that one.
[05:41.700 --> 05:43.940]  [SPEAKER_18]: And *89, to cancel, call, return.
[05:44.300 --> 05:46.200]  [SPEAKER_18]: *57, to trace a call.
[05:46.660 --> 05:50.060]  [SPEAKER_18]: *67, to block your number from Caller ID.
[05:51.340 --> 05:54.060]  [SPEAKER_18]: And so far, Caller ID does not yet seem to be working.
[05:54.240 --> 05:58.640]  [SPEAKER_18]: I heard something rather conflicting from the phone company.
[05:58.720 --> 06:00.120]  [SPEAKER_18]: I guess that's not unusual in itself.
[06:00.380 --> 06:09.560]  [SPEAKER_18]: But from what the nice representative I talked to yesterday told me, everybody who did not previously have Caller ID will have it for free for two months.
[06:09.560 --> 06:12.180]  [SPEAKER_18]: In other words, they will not be billed until June 15th.
[06:12.360 --> 06:15.720]  [SPEAKER_18]: Now, a lot of people supposedly will be getting these features on April 15th, which is tomorrow.
[06:16.100 --> 06:18.460]  [SPEAKER_18]: And some of you may already have it today.
[06:18.700 --> 06:19.820]  [SPEAKER_18]: It may have already been turned on.
[06:20.620 --> 06:26.380]  [SPEAKER_18]: What they're also not exactly breaking their necks telling you is that you have Call Return and...
[06:27.380 --> 06:28.620]  [SPEAKER_18]: I'm sorry, what was it again?
[06:29.080 --> 06:29.760]  [SPEAKER_18]: Repeat Call.
[06:29.760 --> 06:30.180]  [SPEAKER_18]: Repeat Call.
[06:30.200 --> 06:31.840]  [SPEAKER_18]: Maybe you'll just come in and say that every now and then.
[06:32.020 --> 06:32.700]  [SPEAKER_18]: Repeat Call.
[06:33.060 --> 06:37.580]  [SPEAKER_18]: And all these other neat features, with the exception of Call Trace, which costs $1.50.
[06:37.940 --> 06:40.420]  [SPEAKER_18]: All the other features, though, are free for two months.
[06:40.880 --> 06:44.000]  [SPEAKER_18]: Now, I remember last year when everybody seemed to be getting these features.
[06:44.140 --> 06:47.120]  [SPEAKER_18]: That was being advertised on buses and in the sky and everywhere.
[06:47.480 --> 06:51.900]  [SPEAKER_18]: But now that the last few people are being added, they're not really going out of their way to tell people.
[06:52.720 --> 06:53.680]  [SPEAKER_18]: But that is true.
[06:53.840 --> 06:59.020]  [SPEAKER_18]: If you haven't had these features before and now you suddenly do have them, you are entitled to that same 60-day trial period.
[06:59.200 --> 07:04.460]  [SPEAKER_18]: I'm not 100% certain about the caller ID, though, as telephone calls, call ID.
[07:04.880 --> 07:10.560]  [SPEAKER_18]: I was told by one representative that every telephone line will have it for two months.
[07:11.380 --> 07:15.800]  [SPEAKER_18]: Now, they seem to be very confident about this, so I'm not sure if it's true or not.
[07:15.880 --> 07:17.220]  [SPEAKER_18]: We'll know in another week, that's for sure.
[07:17.840 --> 07:22.460]  [SPEAKER_18]: And if it is free, by all means, play around with it as much as you can.
[07:22.740 --> 07:31.800]  [SPEAKER_18]: Now, I did a lot of experimenting today with various call return and repeat call features and various things like that.
[07:32.340 --> 07:35.340]  [SPEAKER_18]: Playing with call forwarding, playing with pay phones.
[07:35.540 --> 07:37.080]  [SPEAKER_18]: I discovered something very interesting.
[07:37.700 --> 07:40.820]  [SPEAKER_18]: Call return does not work to pay phones.
[07:40.820 --> 07:52.960]  [SPEAKER_18]: If somebody calls you from a pay phone directly and you star 69 them, or if you don't have a touchtone phone, 1169 them, it will tell you that the call you made cannot be completed in this fashion.
[07:53.940 --> 07:56.000]  [SPEAKER_18]: Now, does that surprise you?
[07:56.060 --> 07:56.700]  [SPEAKER_18]: That surprised me.
[07:57.180 --> 07:58.600]  [SPEAKER_20]: No, it's not very surprising.
[07:58.740 --> 07:58.920]  [SPEAKER_20]: Why?
[08:00.640 --> 08:13.600]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, okay, for instance, if you were to return call someone, your switch is going to send a message over the SS7 network, the local SS7 network, to the remote office.
[08:13.800 --> 08:17.900]  [SPEAKER_20]: After determining what the last number was that called you and you're trying to call back.
[08:17.900 --> 08:22.560]  [SPEAKER_20]: Now, what the remote switch is going to do is look at something called a line class code.
[08:22.980 --> 08:29.360]  [SPEAKER_20]: And a line class code is pretty much a treatment code for the type of service that the telephoning question has.
[08:30.080 --> 08:36.000]  [SPEAKER_20]: For instance, a line class code might be 1MR for individual message rate residential.
[08:36.580 --> 08:39.780]  [SPEAKER_20]: And a payphone might be DTF for dial tone first.
[08:40.100 --> 08:43.900]  [SPEAKER_20]: It'll simply see that it's DTF, dial tone first, and say, this is a payphone.
[08:44.020 --> 08:44.780]  [SPEAKER_20]: We don't want to let it through.
[08:44.780 --> 08:49.180]  [SPEAKER_18]: Now, okay, well, I mean, I agree with all of you said, but what I don't understand is why?
[08:49.320 --> 08:51.220]  [SPEAKER_18]: Why won't they allow you to call a payphone?
[08:51.540 --> 08:57.240]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, I think it goes along with the reasoning that they'd rather get revenue from people paying to make an outgoing call on the pay phone.
[08:57.340 --> 09:01.480]  [SPEAKER_20]: And you'll notice more and more normal New York telephone pay phones won't receive incoming calls.
[09:01.700 --> 09:04.120]  [SPEAKER_18]: Yeah, but, you know, they told us that was because of drugs.
[09:04.320 --> 09:08.340]  [SPEAKER_18]: It was a way of fighting drugs by not allowing drug dealers to receive calls on pay phones.
[09:08.440 --> 09:11.140]  [SPEAKER_18]: So they all, of course, got cellular phones and the rest of us are stuck.
[09:11.140 --> 09:17.980]  [SPEAKER_18]: But if they're going to allow incoming calls in the first place, you know, why don't they simply allow star six?
[09:18.100 --> 09:19.020]  [SPEAKER_18]: It doesn't make any sense.
[09:19.140 --> 09:23.580]  [SPEAKER_18]: It's one of those silly things that I wish they would consult with people before they decide to do that.
[09:23.700 --> 09:26.960]  [SPEAKER_18]: If somebody calls me and I just happen to be at a pay phone, I'm not going to know that.
[09:27.040 --> 09:29.960]  [SPEAKER_18]: It's not going to say the call that you've made is going to a pay phone.
[09:30.040 --> 09:32.560]  [SPEAKER_18]: They're going to say the call you made cannot be returned in this fashion.
[09:32.620 --> 09:34.160]  [SPEAKER_18]: They could be calling from Pluto for all I know.
[09:34.160 --> 09:36.080]  [SPEAKER_20]: But then you'd have a call ID box.
[09:37.060 --> 09:39.840]  [SPEAKER_18]: Well, now, okay, do pay phone numbers...
[09:39.840 --> 09:41.440]  [SPEAKER_18]: I don't know this yet because I haven't had a chance to play with it.
[09:41.440 --> 09:44.160]  [SPEAKER_18]: Do pay phone numbers get transmitted onto caller ID?
[09:44.160 --> 09:44.940]  [SPEAKER_20]: By all means.
[09:44.940 --> 09:46.000]  [SPEAKER_20]: There's no reason why they shouldn't.
[09:46.380 --> 09:50.980]  [SPEAKER_18]: Well, by the same logic, then, there's no reason why you shouldn't be able to star six, nine a pay phone.
[09:51.100 --> 09:51.480]  [SPEAKER_18]: I agree.
[09:51.760 --> 09:51.980]  [SPEAKER_18]: Okay.
[09:52.360 --> 09:53.780]  [SPEAKER_18]: Well, I'm glad we were able to hammer that out.
[09:54.640 --> 09:56.040]  [SPEAKER_18]: That's one of the things I played with.
[09:57.680 --> 09:59.120]  [SPEAKER_18]: Now, this is interesting.
[09:59.220 --> 10:00.900]  [SPEAKER_18]: Something I've always wanted to try.
[10:00.900 --> 10:07.540]  [SPEAKER_18]: And follow along with me here because it can get kind of crazy when you think about all these little features in tandem.
[10:07.820 --> 10:09.540]  [SPEAKER_18]: You have a telephone line.
[10:10.100 --> 10:14.400]  [SPEAKER_18]: And on your telephone line, you have the capability to initiate call forwarding.
[10:14.560 --> 10:20.080]  [SPEAKER_18]: You have the ability to, if somebody calls your line, it will go someplace else and ring that phone instead.
[10:20.460 --> 10:20.920]  [SPEAKER_18]: All right?
[10:21.060 --> 10:23.960]  [SPEAKER_18]: So, let's say you're at location A.
[10:24.060 --> 10:24.820]  [SPEAKER_18]: You're at your house.
[10:24.900 --> 10:29.500]  [SPEAKER_18]: And you decide to call person B from your phone.
[10:30.380 --> 10:32.860]  [SPEAKER_18]: Now, let's say that you're calling this person.
[10:33.000 --> 10:36.900]  [SPEAKER_18]: However, your phone line is being forwarded to your office at location C.
[10:37.220 --> 10:37.600]  [SPEAKER_18]: All right?
[10:37.660 --> 10:43.120]  [SPEAKER_18]: So, anybody that calls your phone, which we called A, will get location C, your office.
[10:43.380 --> 10:46.940]  [SPEAKER_18]: You can still make outgoing calls from location A and call anywhere you want.
[10:46.940 --> 10:48.660]  [SPEAKER_18]: But people won't be able to call you.
[10:48.800 --> 10:50.980]  [SPEAKER_18]: If they call you a number, they'll get your office.
[10:50.980 --> 10:51.560]  [SPEAKER_18]: It'll forward.
[10:51.740 --> 10:56.600]  [SPEAKER_18]: Now, what happens if you call somebody and they star six, nine you?
[10:56.700 --> 10:58.920]  [SPEAKER_18]: Do they get your home or do they get your office?
[10:58.920 --> 11:01.220]  [SPEAKER_18]: Well, what I found out today was they get neither.
[11:01.360 --> 11:06.320]  [SPEAKER_18]: They get a recording saying, The call you have made cannot be completed in this method, this fashion, whatever.
[11:08.120 --> 11:09.540]  [SPEAKER_18]: Now, that's interesting in itself.
[11:09.680 --> 11:11.460]  [SPEAKER_18]: They don't allow the call to get through.
[11:11.540 --> 11:12.520]  [SPEAKER_18]: You can't fool people that way.
[11:12.600 --> 11:23.780]  [SPEAKER_18]: One of the things that I was thinking was, If, say, you were tormenting somebody and you wanted to really, really torment them, they could think that they're calling you back when you torment them.
[11:24.020 --> 11:28.940]  [SPEAKER_18]: And instead, they'll be calling somebody else who will then become convinced that that person is tormenting them.
[11:28.980 --> 11:30.240]  [SPEAKER_18]: And then you could start wars that way.
[11:30.640 --> 11:32.000]  [SPEAKER_18]: But instead, you get a recording.
[11:32.000 --> 11:39.760]  [SPEAKER_18]: However, as soon as you turn your call forwarding off, the call will go through without any further calls being necessary.
[11:40.020 --> 11:46.040]  [SPEAKER_18]: So, if somebody tries to call me back at location A, they will initially get that recording.
[11:46.200 --> 11:53.780]  [SPEAKER_18]: If I turn call forwarding off and they try again five seconds later without getting another phone call from me, my phone will ring at location A.
[11:53.800 --> 11:54.840]  [SPEAKER_18]: I thought that was kind of interesting.
[11:55.380 --> 11:56.500]  [SPEAKER_18]: A couple other things.
[11:56.780 --> 12:03.460]  [SPEAKER_18]: Zero plus calls consistently, whether it's automated or whether it's through an operator, what have you, collect calls.
[12:04.100 --> 12:05.660]  [SPEAKER_18]: You cannot return them.
[12:05.820 --> 12:08.000]  [SPEAKER_18]: You cannot return those calls at all.
[12:08.580 --> 12:09.240]  [SPEAKER_18]: I don't know.
[12:09.380 --> 12:10.380]  [SPEAKER_18]: Do you think that's going to change someday?
[12:10.860 --> 12:15.680]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, I think it will, along with the fact that you don't get ANI if you go through the operator as well.
[12:16.260 --> 12:18.700]  [SPEAKER_20]: I think that'll be done away with soon enough.
[12:18.780 --> 12:20.320]  [SPEAKER_18]: I think that'll be done away with pretty quickly.
[12:20.600 --> 12:22.280]  [SPEAKER_18]: Another thing, if you have call hunting,
[12:26.440 --> 12:31.280]  [SPEAKER_18]: call hunting is when one line is busy, it jumps to the second line and maybe jumps to a third line, etc., etc.
[12:31.760 --> 12:36.980]  [SPEAKER_18]: Let's say you call somebody from line one and they decide to star 6-9 you.
[12:37.100 --> 12:38.600]  [SPEAKER_18]: However, you happen to be on line one.
[12:38.840 --> 12:43.600]  [SPEAKER_18]: The logical thing you would think would happen would be it would jump to line two, but that is not what happens with call return.
[12:44.200 --> 12:45.920]  [SPEAKER_18]: It stops at line one.
[12:46.040 --> 12:49.300]  [SPEAKER_18]: And if that particular line is in use, it'll tell you this line is busy.
[12:49.300 --> 12:54.580]  [SPEAKER_18]: This line is busy and we'll keep trying for a half hour and we'll ring you back with a special ring.
[12:54.680 --> 12:56.040]  [SPEAKER_18]: That special ring is kind of interesting, too.
[12:56.120 --> 13:03.280]  [SPEAKER_18]: It's kind of like three short rings that notify you that the phone you're trying to call is busy and you pick up and then that phone rings.
[13:04.280 --> 13:09.280]  [SPEAKER_18]: Some phones, however, don't reflect those three short little rings and you might have a hard time telling.
[13:09.720 --> 13:15.460]  [SPEAKER_18]: Also, if you don't answer those three short rings, which will ring a maximum of seven times, I found out.
[13:15.920 --> 13:17.500]  [SPEAKER_18]: Yeah, I was playing with this for about two hours.
[13:18.580 --> 13:19.720]  [SPEAKER_18]: It will try you again.
[13:19.900 --> 13:21.420]  [SPEAKER_18]: And I don't know how many times it keeps trying you.
[13:21.540 --> 13:24.540]  [SPEAKER_18]: It could get kind of annoying after a while, I suppose.
[13:24.760 --> 13:27.320]  [SPEAKER_18]: But that's just one of the prices of high tech.
[13:29.580 --> 13:31.680]  [SPEAKER_18]: And I guess that's pretty much all I found out.
[13:31.740 --> 13:34.920]  [SPEAKER_18]: If there's anything you were curious about, Phiber, as to what would happen?
[13:35.300 --> 13:36.580]  [SPEAKER_20]: I haven't been giving it much thought.
[13:36.580 --> 13:39.700]  [SPEAKER_20]: I've just pretty much accepted the fact that I'm not going to have these features for a long time.
[13:39.840 --> 13:42.640]  [SPEAKER_18]: Yeah, well, you've been put last on the list, I suppose.
[13:47.500 --> 13:51.420]  [SPEAKER_18]: In some places, and this is a trick, and it all depends on how your central office is programmed.
[13:52.840 --> 14:03.760]  [SPEAKER_18]: But if, say, you star 69 somebody, and they don't want you, they don't want you to be able to do that, well, they can't stop it.
[14:03.940 --> 14:05.880]  [SPEAKER_18]: Their phone is going to ring no matter what.
[14:05.880 --> 14:11.540]  [SPEAKER_18]: But, however, they can prevent the last four digits of their phone number from showing up on local itemization.
[14:12.080 --> 14:20.760]  [SPEAKER_18]: And I believe the way to do that, and again, I have not verified this because I'm only now trying it, is to dial star 67 first, just like you would block caller ID.
[14:21.000 --> 14:28.560]  [SPEAKER_18]: And then when they get their local itemization, if they do get such a thing, instead of having the full number, they'll just have the area code exchange and four Xs.
[14:29.700 --> 14:37.020]  [SPEAKER_18]: So, that's a way of blocking, sort of, star 69, but you can't really block people from calling you back.
[14:38.100 --> 14:52.920]  [SPEAKER_18]: However, in some areas, I've been told it works, where if you dial a carrier access code, that is 10XXX for a long-distance company, and then star 69, it will go through using that carrier access code, and it will be charged as a long-distance call, and you'll see their number.
[14:54.120 --> 14:55.800]  [SPEAKER_18]: Again, I have not yet seen this.
[14:55.860 --> 14:56.560]  [SPEAKER_18]: I have heard about it.
[14:56.560 --> 15:00.480]  [SPEAKER_18]: And I'm not saying I'd like to see it, but I would like to see that.
[15:00.640 --> 15:04.400]  [SPEAKER_18]: It would be a horrible thing if it were true, but if it is true, we need to know.
[15:05.120 --> 15:09.220]  [SPEAKER_18]: And that's pretty much the extent of my experimenting with new class...
[15:09.220 --> 15:10.580]  [SPEAKER_18]: Do they call them class features in New York?
[15:10.880 --> 15:13.760]  [SPEAKER_20]: Oh, well, they're standardly called class features by Bellcore.
[15:13.880 --> 15:15.220]  [SPEAKER_18]: Yeah, but this is New York Telephone here.
[15:15.340 --> 15:16.560]  [SPEAKER_20]: Yeah, then it would be PhoneSmart.
[15:17.360 --> 15:17.900]  [SPEAKER_18]: PhoneSmart, yes.
[15:17.940 --> 15:21.360]  [SPEAKER_18]: It's not caller ID, it's call ID, and it's a lot of fun.
[15:21.480 --> 15:26.060]  [SPEAKER_18]: Now, there's something else that, if you weren't careful, and I'll bet you didn't read the paper today.
[15:26.060 --> 15:27.280]  [SPEAKER_18]: No, I can't say I have.
[15:27.320 --> 15:34.400]  [SPEAKER_18]: Well, even if you did read the paper today, I don't think you would have seen this, because it was hidden in the middle of part two.
[15:35.460 --> 15:36.240]  [SPEAKER_18]: Really, really hidden.
[15:36.440 --> 15:39.180]  [SPEAKER_18]: It was little tiny telephone company advertisements.
[15:39.540 --> 15:42.780]  [SPEAKER_18]: Notice of proposed changes in telephone company regulations.
[15:42.960 --> 15:46.540]  [SPEAKER_18]: Now, that's the kind of thing where you say, uh-oh, they're up to something, and they're trying to hide it here.
[15:46.980 --> 15:49.580]  [SPEAKER_18]: You know, it's time to see what it is they want.
[15:49.660 --> 15:50.160]  [SPEAKER_18]: Well, listen to this.
[15:50.160 --> 15:52.280]  [SPEAKER_18]: We mentioned this a couple of weeks ago.
[15:52.780 --> 16:05.320]  [SPEAKER_18]: Notice is hereby given that a proposed tariff has been filed with the Public Service Commission to be effective May 14th, 1993, which provides for the introduction of rules, rates, and regulations for voice dialing service.
[16:05.660 --> 16:14.840]  [SPEAKER_18]: Voice dialing service is a network-based service which allows customers to place telephone calls by speaking the name of a person or place directly into the telephone.
[16:15.060 --> 16:17.020]  [SPEAKER_18]: I don't think it really has to do a person or place.
[16:17.020 --> 16:18.180]  [SPEAKER_18]: I mean, you can program whatever you want.
[16:18.300 --> 16:22.740]  [SPEAKER_18]: You can program an obscenity, and it will call whatever you've programmed that obscenity to call.
[16:23.140 --> 16:25.720]  [SPEAKER_18]: It's just a word or a sound or something like that.
[16:25.980 --> 16:34.160]  [SPEAKER_18]: Anyway, to continue, additionally, a customer may use the service to activate codes associated with custom calling service, phone smart service, or Intellipath service.
[16:34.560 --> 16:38.260]  [SPEAKER_18]: Subscribers will continue to have the option to manually dial a telephone number.
[16:38.360 --> 16:39.080]  [SPEAKER_18]: Bless their hearts.
[16:39.160 --> 16:42.440]  [SPEAKER_18]: We're going to still have the opportunity to dial a manual telephone.
[16:43.060 --> 16:43.620]  [SPEAKER_18]: Oh, that's great.
[16:43.960 --> 16:49.420]  [SPEAKER_18]: Voice dialing service will be offered where facilities permit and suitably equipped digital central offices.
[16:50.680 --> 16:53.940]  [SPEAKER_18]: I guess that counts you out because you're not suitably equipped for whatever reason.
[16:54.040 --> 16:55.020]  [SPEAKER_18]: I am digital.
[16:55.220 --> 16:56.320]  [SPEAKER_18]: You're digital, but you're not suitable.
[16:56.600 --> 16:58.520]  [SPEAKER_18]: That's what they've decided.
[16:58.960 --> 17:05.600]  [SPEAKER_18]: Voice dialing service will be compatible with individual and auxiliary rotary and touch tone telephone lines subject to the regulations of the tariff.
[17:05.780 --> 17:13.320]  [SPEAKER_18]: Voice dialing service will be offered to subscribers with an optional 30-name-slash-number directory or 50-name-slash-number directory.
[17:13.500 --> 17:17.080]  [SPEAKER_18]: Additionally, subscribers will be offered a feature called directory sharing.
[17:17.320 --> 17:23.540]  [SPEAKER_18]: This feature allows a subscriber with two or more telephone lines the ability to share a voice dialing service directory.
[17:24.280 --> 17:44.760]  [SPEAKER_18]: The proposed regulations are set forth in tariffs which are available for inspection at offices of New York Telephone where business is transacted in person and those are 101 Willoughby Street in Brooklyn 88-11 165th Street in Jamaica 204 2nd Avenue in Manhattan or 2532 Grand Concourse off Fordham Road in the Bronx.
[17:45.020 --> 17:53.820]  [SPEAKER_18]: Tariffs also are available at the offices of the Public Service Commission Empire State Plaza in Albany 295 Main Street in Buffalo or 400 Broom Street in Manhattan.
[17:54.100 --> 17:56.920]  [SPEAKER_18]: Now here are the rates that they are proposing to charge here.
[17:57.200 --> 18:25.560]  [SPEAKER_18]: Voice dialing 30 $4.50 for residents $8 for business Voice dialing 50 $5.50 for residents $10 for business and shared directory 30 $4.50 per line $8 per line business and shared directory 50 $5.50 residents $10 business I don't really understand that why it's the exact same cost when you could just get voice dialing 30 voice dialing 50 for all of your lines and pay the same thing as shared
[18:25.560 --> 18:47.160]  [SPEAKER_18]: directory which would simply duplicate the it would save you the trouble of programming it again I suppose but you wouldn't be getting the full flexibility of having a different one in every line I don't know that's something that it seems like kind of an experiment to see if people will actually enjoy talking into their phones saying words and having them immediately dial So,
[18:47.160 --> 18:53.060]  [SPEAKER_18]: I don't know, for $4.50 a month, maybe it's worth an experiment just to see how it goes through.
[18:54.460 --> 18:56.780]  [SPEAKER_18]: It's worth noting that call weighting is still more expensive.
[18:56.980 --> 18:58.040]  [SPEAKER_18]: Call weighting is more expensive.
[18:58.120 --> 18:58.860]  [SPEAKER_18]: I don't know why that is.
[18:58.920 --> 19:00.980]  [SPEAKER_18]: And touch tone is almost as expensive, too.
[19:01.060 --> 19:03.180]  [SPEAKER_18]: But I'm not going to launch into that again.
[19:04.060 --> 19:04.440]  [SPEAKER_18]: Okay.
[19:05.040 --> 19:08.620]  [SPEAKER_18]: We have a special guest with us today.
[19:09.640 --> 19:15.180]  [SPEAKER_18]: First, let me tell you something about what we'll be talking about in the remainder of the time we have.
[19:16.740 --> 19:20.660]  [SPEAKER_18]: A little something the FBI doesn't want you to know.
[19:22.060 --> 19:23.120]  [SPEAKER_18]: Knowledge is power.
[19:23.280 --> 19:25.680]  [SPEAKER_18]: The First Amendment gives the media the power of knowledge.
[19:25.800 --> 19:29.320]  [SPEAKER_18]: In fact, it is meant to take it from the government and put it in the hands of the people.
[19:29.720 --> 19:31.420]  [SPEAKER_18]: The government doesn't always agree.
[19:31.940 --> 19:33.520]  [SPEAKER_18]: New technology can be scary.
[19:33.800 --> 19:37.180]  [SPEAKER_18]: A good example is the phone system constantly expanding in features.
[19:37.620 --> 19:39.260]  [SPEAKER_18]: Some would like to keep that secret.
[19:39.480 --> 19:45.260]  [SPEAKER_18]: The president of a company offering telephone services to private detectives, the FBI, and others, is wise.
[19:46.720 --> 19:53.040]  [SPEAKER_18]: Jim Welker, president of Telscan, Loveland, Colorado, said that he didn't want to see the concept get into the news media.
[19:53.360 --> 19:55.660]  [SPEAKER_18]: Donahue, Oprah, 60 Minutes.
[19:55.840 --> 20:02.400]  [SPEAKER_18]: He also noted that the FBI says we need to keep this thing, never completing the sentence, but clear on its meaning.
[20:03.780 --> 20:06.920]  [SPEAKER_18]: Just, what is this concept in need of such great secrecy?
[20:07.400 --> 20:09.800]  [SPEAKER_18]: Actually, in the matter of technology, it is quite simple.
[20:10.340 --> 20:16.920]  [SPEAKER_18]: Less than a week after those comments, Full Disclosure, the nation's number one surveillance magazine, set up a demonstration.
[20:17.460 --> 20:24.060]  [SPEAKER_18]: And in a moment, we're going to participate, but first, let's introduce our special guest, the publisher of Full Disclosure, Glenn Roberts.
[20:24.360 --> 20:24.960]  [SPEAKER_18]: Glenn, are you there?
[20:25.240 --> 20:25.640]  [SPEAKER_18]: Good evening.
[20:25.640 --> 20:28.300]  [SPEAKER_18]: And you're with us from, I believe, Ann Arbor, Michigan?
[20:28.620 --> 20:32.060]  [SPEAKER_07]: No, I moved from Ann Arbor, Michigan four years ago.
[20:32.180 --> 20:32.380]  [SPEAKER_07]: Oh.
[20:32.680 --> 20:33.800]  [SPEAKER_07]: Chicago, Illinois now.
[20:34.240 --> 20:34.620]  [SPEAKER_18]: You're in Chicago.
[20:34.640 --> 20:35.000]  [SPEAKER_18]: That's right.
[20:35.120 --> 20:37.320]  [SPEAKER_18]: Yeah, I should have known by the area, because 708.
[20:38.580 --> 20:40.800]  [SPEAKER_18]: Well, what is it that we have going here?
[20:40.840 --> 20:42.740]  [SPEAKER_18]: You have a special 800 number.
[20:42.840 --> 20:44.800]  [SPEAKER_18]: I suppose maybe we should just give a call to it?
[20:45.000 --> 20:46.700]  [SPEAKER_07]: That would be a good way of introducing it.
[20:46.720 --> 20:47.480]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay, let's do that.
[20:47.580 --> 20:50.560]  [SPEAKER_07]: The number is 800-235-1414.
[20:50.980 --> 20:52.040]  [SPEAKER_18]: All right, let's try that right now.
[20:55.200 --> 20:57.280]  [SPEAKER_18]: Okay, we're having trouble with our phone system once again.
[20:57.280 --> 20:57.640]  [SPEAKER_18]: Hold on.
[21:00.420 --> 21:03.380]  [SPEAKER_18]: All right, we'll have to try that from the bottom line here.
[21:03.460 --> 21:03.900]  [SPEAKER_18]: Let's try this.
[21:11.300 --> 21:13.220]  [SPEAKER_18]: Okay, everybody, listen carefully.
[21:13.880 --> 21:14.480]  Ha,
[21:22.020 --> 21:25.620]  [SPEAKER_08]: ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, we know who you are.
[21:25.880 --> 21:29.340]  [SPEAKER_08]: This wouldn't happen to be your phone number, would it?
[21:29.640 --> 21:31.360]  [SPEAKER_08]: Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.
[21:31.380 --> 21:38.280]  [SPEAKER_05]: 2-1-2-2-7-9-3-4-0-8.
[21:38.920 --> 21:42.040]  [SPEAKER_08]: Ha, ha, ha, ha, I told you.
[21:43.140 --> 21:45.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, Joker, not so fast.
[21:45.760 --> 21:49.320]  [SPEAKER_05]: You and your caller ID can't beat 1-900-STOPPER.
[21:49.320 --> 21:52.260]  [SPEAKER_05]: Prove it yourself for just $1.95 a minute.
[21:52.460 --> 21:55.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: From any touch-tone phone, dial 1-900-STOPPER.
[21:55.580 --> 21:59.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's 1-900-786-7737.
[21:59.940 --> 22:02.320]  [SPEAKER_05]: Then dial this 800-TEST number.
[22:02.520 --> 22:07.800]  [SPEAKER_05]: The Joker won't get your number, and neither will anyone else when you start your calls with STOPPER.
[22:08.000 --> 22:10.100]  [SPEAKER_05]: No trace, no record.
[22:10.420 --> 22:11.580]  [SPEAKER_05]: No caller ID.
[22:12.020 --> 22:13.780]  [SPEAKER_05]: Repel the privacy invaders.
[22:14.000 --> 22:15.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: Does the FBI have a file on you?
[22:16.140 --> 22:18.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: How to protect your Social Security number?
[22:18.300 --> 22:20.140]  [SPEAKER_05]: Remember, what's the latest in surveillance?
[22:20.140 --> 22:22.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's all reported in Full Disclosure magazine.
[22:23.200 --> 22:27.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: For free information, leave your name and address after you hear the upcoming tone.
[22:27.740 --> 22:32.020]  [SPEAKER_05]: When you're finished recording, press any touch tone and listen for further instruction.
[22:32.560 --> 22:33.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now here comes the tone.
[22:35.340 --> 22:36.900]  [SPEAKER_18]: Okay, nice tone it was.
[22:36.960 --> 22:40.760]  [SPEAKER_18]: Now, Glenn, perhaps you could explain to us, what is this service that you set up?
[22:40.760 --> 22:51.540]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, this is a demonstration of the phone company's ANI, Automatic Number Identification Service, which is a little bit different from caller ID in one of the ways is it works throughout the nation.
[22:51.700 --> 23:00.200]  [SPEAKER_07]: Anywhere in the country, when you call an 800 or a 900 number, your phone number is transmitted through the phone network, very similar to caller ID.
[23:00.200 --> 23:05.540]  [SPEAKER_07]: However, the blocking mechanisms that work with caller ID are not a part of ANI.
[23:06.820 --> 23:18.120]  [SPEAKER_07]: And we found that in some cases, cellular phone numbers also get passed on correctly through the ANI circuitry, and we haven't seen any circumstances where they come through correctly on caller ID.
[23:18.120 --> 23:31.180]  [SPEAKER_07]: There are many people out there in the business environment, telemarketing companies, in law enforcement, the private detective fields, that want to use this technology to their advantage when people aren't aware that the phone number is going through there.
[23:31.260 --> 23:36.780]  [SPEAKER_07]: They want to trick people into releasing their phone numbers to them by means of the ANI service.
[23:37.900 --> 23:38.620]  [SPEAKER_18]: I see.
[23:38.660 --> 23:44.600]  [SPEAKER_18]: Now, how does the connection with 900 stoppers come in, with full disclosure?
[23:44.600 --> 23:50.600]  [SPEAKER_07]: We set up this test number with 900 stopper, which is a private caller ID blocking service.
[23:50.760 --> 24:06.660]  [SPEAKER_07]: And it's really more than a caller ID blocking service, because not only when you place a call through 900 stopper is your number not transmitted to the recipient of the call, your number or the numbers that you call do not appear on your phone bill or in a local itemization,
[24:06.880 --> 24:14.380]  [SPEAKER_07]: which means someone can't subpoena your phone records to find out who you've been calling when your calls have been placed through 900 stopper.
[24:15.040 --> 24:26.740]  [SPEAKER_07]: So we set up this test number in conjunction with 900 stopper so that they can demonstrate how their no trace service works, and we can introduce people to the privacy aspects of the phone system.
[24:26.900 --> 24:40.380]  [SPEAKER_18]: Well, I have to say it's a good service to let people know exactly how easy it is to get their phone number, and that's something that I think a lot of people will be experimenting with to see just how, you know, how secure their privacy really is.
[24:40.660 --> 24:44.600]  [SPEAKER_18]: But $1.95 a minute for an anonymous phone call?
[24:44.800 --> 24:48.100]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, that seems to be what the market is willing to pay for.
[24:48.960 --> 24:50.200]  [SPEAKER_07]: There's many people out there.
[24:50.300 --> 25:00.840]  [SPEAKER_07]: For example, we saw the Procter & Gamble situation, where an employee or an ex-employee of Procter & Gamble reported some no-good business the company was doing to a Wall Street Journal reporter.
[25:00.840 --> 25:18.800]  [SPEAKER_07]: However, Procter & Gamble then got the local police department to subpoena and ordered the local phone company to search through 500,000 or 600,000 telephone records looking for whomever called the particular number at the Wall Street Journal in hopes of identifying the person who was a whistleblower.
[25:19.020 --> 25:26.080]  [SPEAKER_07]: We see all of these anonymous tip lines on television for different governmental agencies, America's Most Wanted, and so forth.
[25:26.100 --> 25:29.340]  [SPEAKER_07]: And they all say it's anonymous when, in fact, it's not anonymous.
[25:29.340 --> 25:40.040]  [SPEAKER_07]: And in many cases, if someone did use 900 Stopper, they could spend the two or three minutes to convey that information with true anonymity that they couldn't get by directly dialing the number.
[25:40.380 --> 25:45.980]  [SPEAKER_07]: There are a number of other means that in some cases will work to give you the anonymity.
[25:46.140 --> 25:48.720]  [SPEAKER_07]: In some cases, car phone numbers aren't conveyed.
[25:49.020 --> 25:58.600]  [SPEAKER_07]: And at the time being, when you place a call through the operator, your number won't be conveyed through the caller ID or the ANI services, but it would still appear on your phone bill.
[25:58.600 --> 26:00.520]  [SPEAKER_18]: Okay, let's give that a try right now.
[26:00.580 --> 26:01.640]  [SPEAKER_18]: I'm going to get another dial tone here.
[26:02.200 --> 26:10.400]  [SPEAKER_18]: And we're going to get a New York telephone operator, one of the brave few operators out there that have to deal with us.
[26:10.520 --> 26:12.400]  [SPEAKER_07]: So you just ask for a dialing assistance.
[26:12.820 --> 26:13.860]  [SPEAKER_13]: New York telephone.
[26:14.600 --> 26:15.640]  [SPEAKER_13]: Pay, now be please.
[26:16.080 --> 26:16.800]  [SPEAKER_18]: Hello, operator.
[26:16.800 --> 26:19.420]  [SPEAKER_18]: We're having some difficulty getting through to an 800 number.
[26:19.540 --> 26:20.080]  [SPEAKER_18]: Can you help us?
[26:20.240 --> 26:20.940]  [SPEAKER_18]: All right, what number?
[26:21.120 --> 26:24.580]  [SPEAKER_18]: Okay, it's 800-235-1414.
[26:25.060 --> 26:25.200]  Yeah.
[26:26.160 --> 26:27.260]  [SPEAKER_18]: Thank you very much.
[26:32.980 --> 26:35.140]  [SPEAKER_08]: We know who you are.
[26:35.480 --> 26:38.900]  [SPEAKER_08]: This wouldn't happen to be your phone number, would it?
[26:51.640 --> 26:54.180]  [SPEAKER_18]: No, that would not happen to be my phone number.
[26:54.260 --> 26:56.780]  [SPEAKER_18]: That's what happens if you try to call through the operator.
[26:56.780 --> 27:04.200]  [SPEAKER_07]: And this 800 number is very good because we can see when exactly our number does get passed through the network with absolute certainty.
[27:04.460 --> 27:19.840]  [SPEAKER_07]: However, if we went back to the Procter & Gamble situation, had the person who made that report to the Wall Street Journal placed his call through the operator, the phone number he dialed would have still appeared in his phone records, and those records could still have been subpoenaed by the local police department and accessed.
[27:20.280 --> 27:25.820]  [SPEAKER_18]: And it's only a matter of time, really, before calls going through the operator will carry ANI.
[27:25.820 --> 27:27.380]  [SPEAKER_07]: I think that's absolutely true.
[27:27.540 --> 27:29.520]  [SPEAKER_07]: And the same goes for cellular phones.
[27:29.660 --> 27:44.060]  [SPEAKER_07]: I recently read in a magazine article that you could use cellular phones to avoid ANI, and we found that to be true in all places in the country that we've tried it, with one exception so far, and that's in Michigan with the cellular one carrier.
[27:44.060 --> 27:47.920]  [SPEAKER_07]: Those phone numbers are being conveyed through the ANI service correctly.
[27:48.180 --> 27:50.640]  [SPEAKER_07]: They do not show up on caller ID, though.
[27:50.960 --> 28:02.340]  [SPEAKER_07]: When you call from an Ameritech phone in Michigan or a cellular one phone in Illinois, you get a number with the correct area code, but the other seven digits do not correspond to anything that makes any sense.
[28:02.680 --> 28:09.320]  [SPEAKER_18]: Now, when you call through this 900 stopper service, I tried it before, and I... well, what are you supposed to get?
[28:09.320 --> 28:13.220]  [SPEAKER_07]: You will get a phone number in the 702 area code.
[28:13.360 --> 28:13.780]  [SPEAKER_18]: That's right.
[28:13.960 --> 28:17.420]  [SPEAKER_07]: And that's a phone number that if you dial, it will ring once and you get nothing further.
[28:17.840 --> 28:20.140]  [SPEAKER_07]: So it's basically a phone number that goes nowhere.
[28:20.580 --> 28:20.980]  [SPEAKER_18]: Okay.
[28:21.120 --> 28:25.340]  [SPEAKER_18]: But that is the number, I imagine, that you are calling out on, or at least it thinks you're calling out on.
[28:25.540 --> 28:26.260]  [SPEAKER_07]: That's correct.
[28:26.260 --> 28:29.800]  [SPEAKER_07]: And the same type of thing might happen in a business environment.
[28:29.800 --> 28:37.300]  [SPEAKER_07]: If you have a PBX system at your business, you might be at... your phone number might be 555-1000.
[28:37.860 --> 28:54.260]  [SPEAKER_07]: When you call this 800 number, it might say that you're calling from 555-1010, because it's going to give you the number of the actual phone line that you're calling out on, which, when you're going through a PBX system, won't necessarily correspond with what you think your phone number is.
[28:54.260 --> 29:06.000]  [SPEAKER_18]: How hard do you think it would be for the federal authorities or any authority to simply say, okay, let's subpoena that particular phone number over in the 702 area code and see who called in at this particular time?
[29:06.460 --> 29:14.720]  [SPEAKER_07]: The problem there is there's, first of all, you have multiple calls, quite likely, of course, transpiring on 900 stopper at a given time.
[29:14.940 --> 29:25.940]  [SPEAKER_07]: And secondly, there's no direct connection between them, because, of course, the time on your phone bill is going to be different than the outgoing call, because you can't dial the phone numbers at the same time.
[29:26.880 --> 29:36.840]  [SPEAKER_07]: So it's all going to be a matter of them presuming that, or coming to the conclusion, that the calls match up, but they don't have a direct link that the calls are matched up.
[29:36.940 --> 29:41.980]  [SPEAKER_07]: Whereas if it shows up on your phone bill directly, they have direct evidence that it was dialed from your phone.
[29:42.180 --> 29:45.600]  [SPEAKER_07]: So it does... it breaks the gap.
[29:45.740 --> 29:47.680]  [SPEAKER_07]: It makes it into a circumstantial-type case.
[29:47.680 --> 29:53.880]  [SPEAKER_07]: To date, and I believe stopper has been in existence for three years now, nobody has subpoenaed their phone records.
[29:54.560 --> 29:54.740]  [SPEAKER_18]: Really?
[29:54.800 --> 29:56.580]  [SPEAKER_18]: Nobody has yet subpoenaed their phone records?
[29:56.680 --> 29:57.100]  [SPEAKER_07]: That's correct.
[29:58.000 --> 30:04.000]  [SPEAKER_18]: Now, there's one situation I can think of where it really wouldn't matter how you made the phone call.
[30:04.000 --> 30:07.280]  [SPEAKER_18]: If you have a pen register on your line, they're going to capture all the digits that you dial.
[30:07.480 --> 30:11.560]  [SPEAKER_18]: And since you have to dial the digits in touchtone on stopper, won't they capture you that way?
[30:11.840 --> 30:12.460]  [SPEAKER_07]: That's correct.
[30:12.460 --> 30:19.680]  [SPEAKER_07]: In fact, if you are going through a system that is doing either a wiretap or a pen register, the digits would be recorded.
[30:19.940 --> 30:27.880]  [SPEAKER_07]: And of course, any type of scheme, that information will be picked up on whether it was calling to the operator and asking her to dial a wiretap.
[30:27.980 --> 30:31.360]  [SPEAKER_07]: The digits would be heard on the tape of you speaking them.
[30:31.620 --> 30:35.280]  [SPEAKER_07]: Or anything that would use touchtones would get picked up on a pen register.
[30:37.320 --> 30:37.840]  [SPEAKER_18]: Okay.
[30:39.760 --> 30:40.580]  [SPEAKER_18]: Very interesting.
[30:40.740 --> 30:44.280]  [SPEAKER_18]: We'll be taking phone calls at 212-279-3400.
[30:45.080 --> 30:56.600]  [SPEAKER_18]: I was thinking, though, one service that might actually be beneficial is if you, perhaps for an additional charge, had somebody pick up and simply take information by voice.
[30:56.820 --> 31:04.940]  [SPEAKER_18]: That way, if there were some sort of a pen register on the phone, there would not be any record of the person dialing because they'd have to speak the number.
[31:04.940 --> 31:09.740]  [SPEAKER_18]: And unless there was a full-blown tap on the line, they would not know the connection between the two calls.
[31:09.900 --> 31:10.480]  [SPEAKER_07]: That's correct.
[31:10.480 --> 31:16.480]  [SPEAKER_07]: The other service that Private Lines, the company that offers 900 Stopper, has, is anonymous voicemail boxes.
[31:16.780 --> 31:21.400]  [SPEAKER_07]: And the way they work is they're prepaid by the customer to Private Lines.
[31:21.580 --> 31:25.840]  [SPEAKER_07]: Private Lines then pays the monthly phone bill for the voicemail box.
[31:25.840 --> 31:27.580]  [SPEAKER_07]: And it has unlimited usage.
[31:28.420 --> 31:33.360]  [SPEAKER_07]: And Private Lines doesn't keep any records as to whom purchased that voicemail box.
[31:33.360 --> 31:44.860]  [SPEAKER_07]: So when you sign up for it, you send them a self-addressed stamped envelope for the mailbox phone number and access code to be returned to the owner of the phone number or the purchaser of the anonymous voicemail.
[31:45.140 --> 31:51.340]  [SPEAKER_07]: And then the subsequent monthly payments simply indicate the voicemail box number and don't have to come to any particular person.
[31:51.340 --> 31:58.440]  [SPEAKER_07]: And this is sort of the opposite side of making anonymous phone calls, but allow someone to receive anonymous phone calls.
[31:58.640 --> 32:07.320]  [SPEAKER_07]: They can give the voicemail box number out, and there's no way for someone to trace that voicemail box number back to the user of the voicemail.
[32:08.280 --> 32:09.100]  [SPEAKER_18]: I see.
[32:09.440 --> 32:09.860]  [SPEAKER_18]: Okay.
[32:10.020 --> 32:12.540]  [SPEAKER_18]: How did Full Disclosure get involved with this?
[32:12.840 --> 32:23.060]  [SPEAKER_07]: We got involved with it because we cover all the different aspects of surveillance technology and privacy issues, and Private Lines is providing services along those lines.
[32:23.440 --> 32:29.420]  [SPEAKER_07]: And we ran across the Telscan company that was providing the 800 numbers.
[32:29.660 --> 32:42.140]  [SPEAKER_07]: What they do is they sell an 800 number to a law enforcement agency or a private detective, and then every day they fax a list of the phone numbers that called that 800 number to their clients.
[32:42.280 --> 32:43.220]  [SPEAKER_18]: This is not Stopper.
[32:43.220 --> 32:43.920]  [SPEAKER_18]: This is Telscan.
[32:43.920 --> 32:44.880]  [SPEAKER_07]: This is Telscan.
[32:44.980 --> 32:45.180]  [SPEAKER_18]: Okay.
[32:45.520 --> 32:59.300]  [SPEAKER_07]: And they had set up a demonstration line very much like the Full Disclosure demonstration line, and we were making use of that for our own purposes, and it got mentioned on a talk show, and it was flooded with calls, and they were fairly upset with us about that.
[32:59.480 --> 33:10.340]  [SPEAKER_07]: And we spoke to them about whether they could set up such a demonstration line for us, and that's when we got all of this flack from them that they wanted the concept of it kept secret and so forth.
[33:10.340 --> 33:18.060]  [SPEAKER_07]: So we went to another voicemail service provider, and within the matter of eight hours, they had the demonstration line set up and working for us.
[33:18.320 --> 33:20.940]  [SPEAKER_18]: And you haven't gotten any flack from them from all these people that are calling it?
[33:21.240 --> 33:22.080]  [SPEAKER_07]: No, we haven't.
[33:22.120 --> 33:31.580]  [SPEAKER_07]: And in fact, Telscan was happy that we set up our own number because then we won't be using their number with the public, and they won't receive calls that won't be turning into business for them.
[33:31.580 --> 33:39.820]  [SPEAKER_07]: And Full Disclosure is involved with this because we ask people to leave their name and address, and then we send them some information on our magazine.
[33:40.500 --> 33:53.140]  [SPEAKER_07]: One of the bonuses that we put in that free information pack is a fill-in-the-blank form that you can use to get copies of your FBI files, and that form can actually be used with any of the federal agencies.
[33:54.220 --> 34:07.880]  [SPEAKER_18]: All right, we're talking to Glenn Roberts, publisher of Full Disclosure magazine, and we're talking about a new service that Full Disclosure is getting involved with, namely a way of making anonymous phone calls at a price.
[34:08.100 --> 34:19.120]  [SPEAKER_07]: And the other part of that, of course, is teaching the public about how the ANI service works, and then in fact, when you call an 800 number, your phone number goes to whatever business has that 800 number.
[34:19.960 --> 34:30.600]  [SPEAKER_07]: Even if the number isn't provided instantaneously to the company, it is provided once a month on the phone bill, and most of the carriers will also provide it once a month on FloppyTiscat.
[34:30.760 --> 34:34.500]  [SPEAKER_07]: Now, what the companies do with your phone number is anybody's guess.
[34:34.720 --> 34:54.120]  [SPEAKER_07]: Many companies then take them to a service bureau that looks up the names and addresses, or looks up the phone numbers and gets the names and addresses, and then sells them to telemarketing firms and mailing list companies It means as to if you're a person interested in this type of service or that type of service to generate more drunk mail and more drunk phone calls for you.
[34:55.120 --> 34:58.040]  [SPEAKER_18]: Okay, and that 800 number, it's okay to give it out, I suppose.
[34:58.220 --> 34:58.760]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's okay to give it out.
[34:58.820 --> 34:59.880]  [SPEAKER_07]: We encourage you to call it.
[34:59.960 --> 35:04.560]  [SPEAKER_07]: We encourage you to leave your name and address so you can get some more information on full disclosure.
[35:04.800 --> 35:09.540]  [SPEAKER_18]: Okay, but we should point out that if people call that number, their number is being recorded someplace, right?
[35:09.700 --> 35:13.840]  [SPEAKER_07]: Their number, what happens with it is they hear their own number every day.
[35:13.840 --> 35:21.360]  [SPEAKER_07]: They were sent a fax report of everybody that calls us, and the voicemail company has offered to provide those numbers on diskette to us.
[35:21.840 --> 35:28.400]  [SPEAKER_07]: Full disclosure and private lines don't intend to sell those numbers or give them out to anyone outside of our own organization.
[35:28.660 --> 35:41.400]  [SPEAKER_07]: So what you'll get if you leave your name and address is a package by first-class mail from full disclosure about the products and services that we do have, and we won't be giving your phone number to other people to bother you.
[35:41.400 --> 35:44.300]  [SPEAKER_07]: And we don't call you back unless you specifically ask us to.
[35:44.360 --> 35:48.040]  [SPEAKER_18]: Okay, that was my next question, if you would be calling back, because you would have that capability, certainly.
[35:48.800 --> 35:56.080]  [SPEAKER_07]: No, we're more than happy sending people mail so they can review it at their own pleasure and not hitting them at dinnertime with telemarketing calls.
[35:56.340 --> 36:01.560]  [SPEAKER_07]: So you don't have to worry from calling our 800 number that the telemarketers will come after you.
[36:01.740 --> 36:07.560]  [SPEAKER_07]: However, if you call anybody else's 800 number, then it's anybody's guess as to what happens to your phone number.
[36:08.300 --> 36:13.780]  [SPEAKER_18]: Okay, and the same thing holds true for 900 numbers, too, except people are more hesitant to call that because there's a charge attached to it.
[36:14.860 --> 36:19.600]  [SPEAKER_18]: But your number is being passed along in different ways more and more these days.
[36:20.000 --> 36:28.000]  [SPEAKER_07]: That's correct, and many people aren't aware of how it's being passed along, so they can't make intelligent decisions on how to use the phone service.
[36:28.540 --> 36:41.440]  [SPEAKER_07]: In many cases, people might find that when they're calling an advertisement on TV or something that they want to dial it through the operator so that the person receiving their call doesn't have their number and they don't get put onto additional chunk mail lists.
[36:41.720 --> 36:49.480]  [SPEAKER_07]: And, of course, to do so, you dial zero and then ask for assistance in dialing and give them the number, and the operator will dial that without giving you any trouble.
[36:50.080 --> 36:51.000]  [SPEAKER_18]: For now, anyway.
[36:51.380 --> 36:51.680]  [SPEAKER_07]: Right.
[36:51.980 --> 37:02.420]  [SPEAKER_07]: And our 800 number, of course, is 800-235-1414, and that'll, of course, tell you exactly when your number is being passed and when it isn't.
[37:02.700 --> 37:16.420]  [SPEAKER_07]: If, for example, someone call-forwards their phone to our 800 number and you call the call-forwarded phone, the number that appears on the 800 number is the one with the call-forwarding active, not the person that calls that.
[37:16.960 --> 37:18.080]  [SPEAKER_18]: That's correct, yes.
[37:18.640 --> 37:20.760]  [SPEAKER_18]: Okay, let's take some phone calls.
[37:20.900 --> 37:22.640]  [SPEAKER_18]: 212-279-3400.
[37:22.860 --> 37:24.400]  [SPEAKER_18]: We don't get your number.
[37:24.640 --> 37:26.320]  [SPEAKER_18]: We just get your call.
[37:26.700 --> 37:27.260]  [SPEAKER_18]: Good evening.
[37:27.400 --> 37:27.780]  [SPEAKER_18]: You're on the air.
[37:27.780 --> 37:31.120]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yes, I'd like to ask some questions on...
[37:31.800 --> 37:41.080]  [SPEAKER_13]: First about this thing, I just want to say that, to get off the subject just a little, I'll get back on it in a couple of minutes, I just want to say, some call cards are still stuffed.
[37:41.220 --> 37:49.040]  [SPEAKER_13]: I know I mentioned this once before, people stuff pay phones, like stuff something in the coin return where you're supposed to get the money so that, you know, you can't get the money.
[37:49.040 --> 38:06.400]  [SPEAKER_13]: They do that with call cards, and it's hard because you can't really go to the establishment where the call card is and tell them to give you your money back because they'll be hesitant to do that, and it's sometimes hard to get through to the people in which the call card says.
[38:06.500 --> 38:10.280]  [SPEAKER_13]: In other words, you sometimes would have to dial, like, 2-1-1, and it would be busy.
[38:10.440 --> 38:12.940]  [SPEAKER_13]: And sometimes, of course, it's hard to get a refund from call cards.
[38:24.100 --> 38:25.700]  [SPEAKER_18]: Okay, Phiber, you want to tackle that one?
[38:25.820 --> 38:28.280]  [SPEAKER_20]: A tandem ID, it's probably...
[38:28.700 --> 38:31.780]  [SPEAKER_20]: I'm assuming you're talking about the ID that it gives in recordings.
[38:33.980 --> 38:35.400]  [SPEAKER_18]: Please turn down your radio.
[38:36.140 --> 38:37.100]  [SPEAKER_13]: I'm sorry, what?
[38:37.560 --> 38:39.800]  [SPEAKER_20]: The ID that they're giving in recordings, you're saying?
[38:39.980 --> 38:41.660]  [SPEAKER_13]: Oh, difficulties, I'm sorry.
[38:42.240 --> 38:43.260]  [SPEAKER_13]: I'm sorry, what was that?
[38:43.840 --> 38:46.880]  [SPEAKER_20]: All right, this is the third time he's going to say it, and that's the last time.
[38:47.000 --> 38:47.420]  [SPEAKER_20]: Now, go ahead.
[38:47.540 --> 38:50.280]  [SPEAKER_20]: You mean the ID code that they're giving in recordings?
[38:53.300 --> 38:56.260]  [SPEAKER_13]: Now, are there any more coin-first phones?
[38:56.700 --> 38:57.840]  [SPEAKER_20]: I didn't answer the question.
[38:58.140 --> 38:58.420]  [SPEAKER_20]: What?
[38:58.640 --> 38:59.720]  [SPEAKER_20]: I didn't answer your question.
[38:59.720 --> 39:00.820]  [SPEAKER_20]: I asked you a question.
[39:01.060 --> 39:01.940]  [SPEAKER_13]: What did you ask?
[39:02.060 --> 39:05.740]  [SPEAKER_20]: I said, do you mean the tandem ID codes that are given in recordings?
[39:06.000 --> 39:15.540]  [SPEAKER_13]: When you call 910-anything, it gives you a recording saying, the customer number you dialed is not in service or something, and then it says, tandem ID something or another.
[39:15.960 --> 39:21.420]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, it's a rather verbose way of saying it, but when you hear something like 132A2, for instance...
[39:21.420 --> 39:24.820]  [SPEAKER_13]: All right, just dial 910-1234 and see what I mean.
[39:25.760 --> 39:29.260]  [SPEAKER_13]: But I'd just like to ask you if there are any more coin-first phones, pay phones.
[39:29.380 --> 39:31.940]  [SPEAKER_20]: No, those went out quite some time ago.
[39:31.940 --> 39:34.500]  [SPEAKER_20]: I'm sure you may run into them in some rural areas.
[39:35.380 --> 39:36.400]  [SPEAKER_20]: Not around here.
[39:36.500 --> 39:37.260]  [SPEAKER_20]: Not around here, no.
[39:38.020 --> 39:45.440]  [SPEAKER_13]: The pay phones in Penn Station where it says deposit 25 cents for 30 seconds, you can make three long-distance phone calls on it.
[39:45.440 --> 39:51.420]  [SPEAKER_13]: I just found out you can dial 102881, the area code and number, and it'll go through.
[39:52.000 --> 39:52.820]  [SPEAKER_18]: Is that so?
[39:52.940 --> 39:56.080]  [SPEAKER_18]: Well, I guess we'll drop by Penn Station and see if we can verify that.
[39:56.160 --> 39:58.760]  [SPEAKER_18]: But it's nice to have a replacement for Chemical Bank.
[39:58.980 --> 40:00.400]  [SPEAKER_13]: And one, the area code and number.
[40:00.860 --> 40:02.600]  [SPEAKER_13]: And one last thing.
[40:06.580 --> 40:08.900]  [SPEAKER_13]: Did you know that...
[40:09.320 --> 40:09.800]  All right.
[40:10.220 --> 40:10.940]  [SPEAKER_18]: Time is wasting.
[40:11.080 --> 40:11.520]  [SPEAKER_18]: That's what I know.
[40:11.620 --> 40:11.940]  [SPEAKER_18]: Good evening.
[40:12.600 --> 40:12.820]  [SPEAKER_03]: Hello?
[40:13.060 --> 40:13.620]  [SPEAKER_18]: Yes, go ahead.
[40:13.880 --> 40:14.540]  [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, I'm sorry.
[40:14.580 --> 40:15.620]  [SPEAKER_03]: We have to turn the radio down.
[40:15.840 --> 40:15.980]  [SPEAKER_18]: Okay.
[40:17.680 --> 40:19.020]  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm waiting to ask a question.
[40:19.200 --> 40:19.500]  [SPEAKER_18]: Go ahead.
[40:19.580 --> 40:20.180]  [SPEAKER_18]: You're on the air.
[40:20.260 --> 40:20.680]  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, sorry.
[40:20.860 --> 40:22.120]  [SPEAKER_03]: I was on the phone.
[40:22.280 --> 40:23.300]  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm calling...
[40:23.300 --> 40:24.040]  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm in Queens.
[40:24.420 --> 40:25.000]  [SPEAKER_03]: And I was...
[40:26.020 --> 40:26.960]  [SPEAKER_18]: I didn't do that.
[40:28.340 --> 40:29.060]  [SPEAKER_18]: I don't...
[40:29.060 --> 40:30.460]  [SPEAKER_18]: I guess they hit the switch hook or something.
[40:31.140 --> 40:33.720]  [SPEAKER_18]: Well, we've had two strikeouts so far.
[40:33.800 --> 40:34.620]  [SPEAKER_18]: Glenn, are you still with us?
[40:34.760 --> 40:35.080]  [SPEAKER_14]: Still here.
[40:35.260 --> 40:35.500]  [SPEAKER_18]: Okay.
[40:35.520 --> 40:38.060]  [SPEAKER_18]: Let's try and keep the phone calls to the subject.
[40:38.060 --> 40:44.160]  [SPEAKER_18]: We're talking about 800 ANI and services with caller anonymity and things like that.
[40:44.240 --> 40:45.560]  [SPEAKER_18]: Let's see who's out there.
[40:45.780 --> 40:46.100]  [SPEAKER_18]: Good evening.
[40:46.340 --> 40:46.660]  Good evening.
[40:46.800 --> 40:47.320]  Things like that.
[40:47.860 --> 40:49.420]  [SPEAKER_18]: And please turn down your radio.
[40:51.000 --> 40:51.480]  [SPEAKER_18]: All right.
[40:51.600 --> 40:52.000]  [SPEAKER_18]: Strike three.
[40:52.240 --> 40:52.640]  [SPEAKER_18]: Good evening.
[40:53.660 --> 40:54.020]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay.
[40:54.140 --> 40:54.800]  [SPEAKER_10]: Let's see if we can...
[40:54.800 --> 40:56.480]  [SPEAKER_10]: Avoid having strike three here.
[40:56.740 --> 40:58.060]  [SPEAKER_18]: No, we already had strike three.
[40:58.200 --> 40:59.060]  [SPEAKER_18]: You'd be strike four.
[40:59.200 --> 41:00.680]  [SPEAKER_18]: So let's try to avoid that.
[41:00.800 --> 41:01.560]  [SPEAKER_10]: I missed that on delay.
[41:02.020 --> 41:04.000]  [SPEAKER_10]: Anyway, getting to the privacy issue here.
[41:04.000 --> 41:04.220]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yes.
[41:04.220 --> 41:05.040]  [SPEAKER_10]: It seems to me that...
[41:05.040 --> 41:12.960]  [SPEAKER_10]: I mean, most of the callers that probably use that 900 service, I would suspect, are not innocent whistleblowers trying to do justice.
[41:13.580 --> 41:19.280]  [SPEAKER_10]: I dare say a lot of it involves one kind of nefarious activity or another.
[41:19.580 --> 41:21.480]  [SPEAKER_10]: But that's really none of our business.
[41:22.180 --> 41:23.860]  [SPEAKER_10]: And someone's making a ton of money off it.
[41:23.860 --> 41:32.900]  [SPEAKER_10]: I would suggest that anybody who really wants total privacy, that is to say, untraceability, it's a lot cheaper than $1.95 a minute to just put quarters in a pay phone.
[41:33.520 --> 41:39.600]  [SPEAKER_10]: Because if you use that 900 service, first of all, you're going to be billed by that service to your phone number.
[41:39.600 --> 41:51.520]  [SPEAKER_10]: And if the government, if the NSA and the FBI are really such scoundrels, well, maybe they can't get a legal warrant to trace all the 900 incoming calls.
[41:51.560 --> 42:00.820]  [SPEAKER_10]: But if they know that there's one place that anybody who wants to use that service goes to, that is to say that service, wouldn't it behoove them to sort of hack into that line?
[42:00.820 --> 42:12.180]  [SPEAKER_10]: Because they know that all the crooks and bandits and scoundrels who want to do things that are semi-illicit or, you know, want to not be used at that, so that that would be an ideal place to illegally tap into.
[42:12.680 --> 42:13.420]  [SPEAKER_10]: If you see what I'm saying.
[42:13.540 --> 42:15.020]  [SPEAKER_18]: Yeah, let's let Glenn respond to that.
[42:15.160 --> 42:16.700]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, that would probably be a good idea.
[42:16.700 --> 42:32.580]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, however, I think the practical problem you get with that is we've seen the recent wiretap proposals where the FBI wants all of the digital circuitry made accessible to them for tapping procedures, and the 900 stopper service does go through a T1 connection,
[42:32.580 --> 42:48.700]  [SPEAKER_07]: which means the interface into the 900 stopper switching circuit is over a T1 digital connection, which means if you believe the FBI in the fact that they have problems tapping these digital circuits, that they're sort of in a bind there if they wanted to do that,
[42:49.040 --> 42:55.000]  [SPEAKER_07]: I would question whether the FBI really has a problem tapping those types of circuits, though.
[42:55.440 --> 42:59.860]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, and on the payphone issue, wasn't it a lot cheaper than $1.95 a minute to just put quarters into a phone?
[43:00.760 --> 43:02.480]  [SPEAKER_07]: A payphone is definitely cheaper.
[43:02.660 --> 43:13.460]  [SPEAKER_07]: However, people do trace things back to payphones, and if they know it's coming from a particular payphone, the location of that payphone can be obtained and a physical surveillance be put on the payphone.
[43:13.460 --> 43:28.740]  [SPEAKER_07]: So, for example, if you call someone that has ANI or caller ID, and they get the payphone number, and they have good contact with the phone company, they can find out where that payphone is in short order, and then do a physical surveillance to find out who's placing the call.
[43:28.980 --> 43:38.460]  [SPEAKER_07]: So there's all sorts of reasons to use and not to use the different services out there, and people should be aware of what their choices are so they can pick the one that's right for them.
[43:38.740 --> 43:42.960]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, a smart whistleblower would just keep changing phones, but a dumb kidnapper probably wouldn't.
[43:43.060 --> 43:44.600]  [SPEAKER_10]: I mean, you know, it's really...
[43:45.320 --> 43:50.280]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's a little disconcerting because, again, I go back to the theme of the question.
[43:50.960 --> 43:56.920]  [SPEAKER_10]: Isn't it true that most of the people who want this level of privacy are protecting something that is illicit?
[43:56.920 --> 44:14.460]  [SPEAKER_07]: That's a very good question, and we don't know because we don't know who the clients to 900 Stopper are, and the next question is if it is illicit things and the government does have the power to subpoena those records and examine them if they wish to,
[44:14.620 --> 44:27.500]  [SPEAKER_07]: and to date they have not done so, which would raise the assumption that the government doesn't seem to think that any of the users of 900 Stopper are doing anything so illicit to warrant the subpoenaing of their phone records.
[44:27.700 --> 44:28.680]  [SPEAKER_18]: Thanks for your questions.
[44:28.900 --> 44:29.040]  [SPEAKER_18]: Thanks.
[44:29.600 --> 44:40.640]  [SPEAKER_18]: Let me just ask you, Glenn, do you think the fact that a service like 900 Stopper exists indicates that there's something fundamentally wrong with the way the telephone system works today?
[44:40.880 --> 44:43.920]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, I think it indicates that people feel that there's a need for privacy.
[44:44.160 --> 44:52.280]  [SPEAKER_07]: Certainly, the phone system works differently today than it did five years ago or ten years ago, and people are just naturally opposed to change.
[44:52.280 --> 45:04.160]  [SPEAKER_07]: So everybody wants the phone system to be the way it was ten years ago, and it's not, and some of these services might give them the comfort in feeling that they can use the phone system as they could ten years ago.
[45:04.540 --> 45:10.100]  [SPEAKER_18]: Well, do you think the phone companies should allow for some sort of anonymous feature for those people that wanted a true anonymous feature?
[45:10.340 --> 45:21.180]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, I think the problem you get into is that because of the ANI technology, because of the switching technology, there's no way really to have an anonymous calling feature through the phone company.
[45:21.320 --> 45:25.440]  [SPEAKER_07]: For example, in Illinois, they keep a record of all of your local phone calls.
[45:25.560 --> 45:29.860]  [SPEAKER_07]: For $2, you can get a printout of that from the phone company for a month.
[45:30.060 --> 45:40.540]  [SPEAKER_07]: That means that it's stored on computer, which means anything you dial into the Illinois Bell Network, somebody can come back through and search with a subpoena and find out who you're calling.
[45:40.540 --> 45:52.660]  [SPEAKER_07]: So, for example, if the phone number 555-1000 has been called and they want to find out who's called it, they only need to search through all the records for 555-1000 and get a printout of the numbers that have called that.
[45:52.780 --> 46:05.920]  [SPEAKER_07]: I don't see any way that with the current day phone technology, you can stop that type of activity by the phone company without going beyond the phone company to obtain your privacy.
[46:05.920 --> 46:07.040]  [SPEAKER_18]: I see.
[46:07.220 --> 46:13.360]  [SPEAKER_18]: Do you think the day will ever come when there will be a subpoena or a trace of some sort that goes through this service?
[46:13.860 --> 46:15.660]  [SPEAKER_07]: That's a very good question.
[46:15.940 --> 46:19.340]  [SPEAKER_07]: I'm personally surprised that they haven't received any to date.
[46:19.480 --> 46:26.060]  [SPEAKER_07]: I think it's been a considerable period of time that they've been in business for subpoenas not to exist.
[46:26.060 --> 46:35.580]  [SPEAKER_07]: I think the founder of 900 Stopper originally believed that within a week of starting the service that they would receive a subpoena from somebody or another.
[46:35.880 --> 46:51.380]  [SPEAKER_07]: Certainly, because the 900 number appears on the phone bills, the government, if they're investigating someone and sees the calls to 900 Stopper, is going to have a fairly good idea of what's going on, that this person is trying to obtain phone privacy through the 900 Stopper service.
[46:51.380 --> 46:59.820]  [SPEAKER_07]: I know some time ago they tried having an 800 Stopper service where the calls were charged on a credit card.
[47:00.080 --> 47:04.140]  [SPEAKER_07]: However, the volume of credit card fraud prevented them from continuing that.
[47:04.380 --> 47:11.260]  [SPEAKER_18]: Or when you're dealing with people that could potentially be up to something, I guess credit card fraud is not too far beyond their grasp.
[47:11.440 --> 47:27.660]  [SPEAKER_07]: It basically comes down to that if you purchase something on a credit card and you don't sign the sales receipt, in other words, anything you purchase through the mail or over the phone with a credit card, when it shows up on your bill, you can call the credit card company and say you didn't place the order and the charges are reversed,
[47:27.780 --> 47:43.720]  [SPEAKER_07]: no questions asked, which means any type of a phone service being charged to a credit card is very easy for the person to deny the charges and have those charges reversed, which very quickly turns into free phone calls to someone, which means I'm sure once the word got out,
[47:43.800 --> 47:49.660]  [SPEAKER_07]: there were people using 800 Stopper not to protect their privacy, but simply to obtain free long-distance phone calls.
[47:49.980 --> 47:51.300]  [SPEAKER_18]: Okay, let's go back to the phones.
[47:51.700 --> 47:53.200]  [SPEAKER_18]: Good evening, you're on Off the Hook.
[47:54.640 --> 47:55.280]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, hi.
[47:55.720 --> 47:56.080]  [SPEAKER_18]: Go ahead.
[47:56.360 --> 47:57.680]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, I have a question first, Emmanuel.
[47:57.920 --> 48:03.180]  [SPEAKER_11]: Do you know if the Jackson case in, I think it was in Texas, is a reported case and what the name of it was?
[48:03.340 --> 48:04.420]  [SPEAKER_18]: Is it a reported case?
[48:04.580 --> 48:09.260]  [SPEAKER_18]: It was, I believe, Steve Jackson Games versus United States Secret Service.
[48:09.260 --> 48:10.760]  [SPEAKER_07]: Steve Jackson Gaines?
[48:11.000 --> 48:12.460]  [SPEAKER_18]: Yeah, S-J-G, maybe.
[48:13.280 --> 48:15.660]  [SPEAKER_07]: Gaines as in G-A-M-E-S.
[48:15.780 --> 48:16.040]  [SPEAKER_18]: Right.
[48:16.200 --> 48:25.940]  [SPEAKER_07]: If you want to get a copy of that, you can call the federal court down there and have them give you the file number and the size of the order, and then for 50 cents a page, they'll send you a Xerox copy of it.
[48:26.040 --> 48:28.440]  [SPEAKER_18]: It's also available on the Internet.
[48:28.440 --> 48:32.600]  [SPEAKER_11]: I have Westlaw, so if it is recorded, I can get it off Westlaw.
[48:32.740 --> 48:36.500]  [SPEAKER_18]: I'll tell you, if you send us some email over, are you on the Internet?
[48:36.820 --> 48:37.540]  [SPEAKER_18]: No, no, I'm not.
[48:37.540 --> 48:42.060]  [SPEAKER_18]: Okay, well, for those of you who are on the Internet, there is a copy available that's being floated around.
[48:42.580 --> 48:48.080]  [SPEAKER_18]: You can email to 2600-2600-at-well.sf.ca.us.
[48:48.080 --> 48:50.560]  [SPEAKER_18]: That's well as in those things, kids fall down occasionally.
[48:50.840 --> 48:52.760]  [SPEAKER_18]: San Francisco, California, United States.
[48:53.700 --> 48:56.520]  [SPEAKER_18]: And we'll send you a copy of that email-ish.
[48:56.800 --> 49:03.800]  [SPEAKER_18]: And as Glenn said, you can get it through the courthouse in Austin, and I'm sure there's other copies floating around in hard copy.
[49:03.960 --> 49:05.720]  [SPEAKER_11]: It was in Austin, Texas, federal court?
[49:05.720 --> 49:06.060]  [SPEAKER_18]: Yes.
[49:06.400 --> 49:09.640]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay, a question for Glenn regarding telemarketing and privacy.
[49:09.960 --> 49:14.540]  [SPEAKER_11]: He might know, I'm trying to stop telemarketers from calling me.
[49:14.620 --> 49:21.320]  [SPEAKER_11]: And in a recent instance, the New York Telephone, at least people saying they're from New York Telephone, they're trying to sell me services.
[49:21.700 --> 49:23.920]  [SPEAKER_11]: And I asked them, I said, are you from New York Telephone?
[49:24.000 --> 49:28.320]  [SPEAKER_11]: They said, no, we're a telemarketing corporation coming out of Tempe, Arizona.
[49:29.600 --> 49:31.520]  [SPEAKER_11]: We're contracting with New York Telephone.
[49:31.520 --> 49:34.880]  [SPEAKER_11]: So I said, look, I would like you never to call me again.
[49:35.260 --> 49:49.100]  [SPEAKER_07]: What I found is that the legitimate telemarketers, for example, a local newspaper in the area, call up, and if you tell them you don't appreciate their calls, they will very promptly ask you or tell you that they'll put your phone number in a do-not-call file.
[49:49.100 --> 49:53.500]  [SPEAKER_07]: And since I did that with the one paper, I have never received another call from them.
[49:53.780 --> 49:56.920]  [SPEAKER_07]: And I think that any of the legitimate companies are very good about that.
[49:57.120 --> 50:00.200]  [SPEAKER_07]: The other ones are best dealt with with four-letter words.
[50:00.460 --> 50:13.760]  [SPEAKER_07]: Or the ones that call up and want you to purchase expensive investments over the phone and whatnot, a little notification that you just got out of bankruptcy, or you intend to file bankruptcy, usually hurries them off the phone quicker than anything else.
[50:14.300 --> 50:23.760]  [SPEAKER_07]: But it's really a matter of just being abrupt and rude to them and giving them the idea that you are not a good client for their services so that they won't desire to call you back again.
[50:23.940 --> 50:28.540]  [SPEAKER_11]: Is there not any federal legislation like the Telephone Consumer Protection Act that would protect me?
[50:28.700 --> 50:31.480]  [SPEAKER_11]: Couldn't I cite that to them and tell them never to call me again?
[50:31.660 --> 50:38.940]  [SPEAKER_07]: There was some legislation passed, and my understanding is that the federal court has put the implementation of that on hold for the time being.
[50:38.940 --> 50:53.740]  [SPEAKER_07]: And what that law provided is that they could call you, and if you told them not to call you, that particular telemarketing company couldn't call you back, which raises the problem that someone simply goes to another telemarketing firm and they'll call you over and over again.
[50:54.120 --> 51:00.620]  [SPEAKER_11]: Would that be the reason why my local telephone company here is contracting with an out-of-state telemarketer to avoid state regulation?
[51:00.860 --> 51:02.360]  [SPEAKER_07]: That might very well be.
[51:02.460 --> 51:03.020]  [SPEAKER_07]: Very good possibility.
[51:03.040 --> 51:08.020]  [SPEAKER_07]: And also by switching telemarketing companies, New York Telephone or any other business could avoid the regulations.
[51:08.020 --> 51:16.320]  [SPEAKER_07]: by simply having a different business placing the phone calls, since the burden is only on the company placing the phone calls not to do it more than once.
[51:16.620 --> 51:24.620]  [SPEAKER_07]: And, of course, you have a major problem proving that a particular telemarketing company has called you more than once or that they even called you to begin with.
[51:25.000 --> 51:30.240]  [SPEAKER_11]: What this telemarketing company told me is they would not even accept my request.
[51:30.440 --> 51:36.680]  [SPEAKER_11]: They said since they're contracting with my local phone company, I would have to call my local phone company and put the request into them.
[51:36.680 --> 51:49.240]  [SPEAKER_07]: Right, well, what I do is suggest to the clerk that if they continue to call you, that they're simply going to get a barrage of four-letter words, and that they can pass that message on to whomever has the ability to block your phone number out.
[51:49.480 --> 51:50.540]  [SPEAKER_18]: But get names.
[51:50.680 --> 51:55.100]  [SPEAKER_18]: Get names of the companies, and definitely call your local phone company.
[51:55.280 --> 52:04.000]  [SPEAKER_18]: And if they get wind that you're not happy with telemarketing concerns in various other states, and they get enough calls like that, something will probably be done.
[52:04.000 --> 52:08.480]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, eventually they told me, the Tempe, Arizona company said to call Valhalla, New York.
[52:08.560 --> 52:10.040]  [SPEAKER_11]: They gave me an 800 number from New York Tell.
[52:10.120 --> 52:19.480]  [SPEAKER_11]: I called there, and they said they would put me on a DNC, a do-not-call list, and it would take 60 days for them to guarantee that I wouldn't get called back.
[52:19.480 --> 52:24.360]  [SPEAKER_11]: So I said, well, if you call me back within, let's say, a week, I'm going to report you to the Attorney General's office.
[52:24.460 --> 52:25.760]  [SPEAKER_11]: I'm telling you never to call me again.
[52:25.860 --> 52:27.300]  [SPEAKER_11]: But they said, we can't guarantee you.
[52:27.400 --> 52:28.460]  [SPEAKER_11]: Again, it would take 60 days.
[52:28.680 --> 52:32.360]  [SPEAKER_18]: And what happens if you tell them you can't guarantee you'll pay your bill within 60 days?
[52:32.980 --> 52:33.600]  [SPEAKER_11]: Exactly, yeah.
[52:33.600 --> 52:36.340]  [SPEAKER_18]: It's not very fair the way they come up with these rules.
[52:36.500 --> 52:45.240]  [SPEAKER_11]: I just wanted to bring that point out that New York Telephone is contracting with out-of-state telemarketers, and I believe to kind of skirt probably the state regulations.
[52:45.460 --> 52:45.560]  [SPEAKER_07]: Right.
[52:45.620 --> 52:57.280]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, as soon as it's out-of-state, then the control is very difficult for anybody within the state to have any control over what that company is doing or to go after them, even if they are outright violating the state or federal law.
[52:57.620 --> 52:57.920]  [SPEAKER_07]: Exactly.
[52:58.140 --> 52:59.160]  [SPEAKER_18]: Okay, we're going to go to another call.
[53:00.920 --> 53:01.520]  [SPEAKER_18]: Good evening.
[53:01.960 --> 53:02.640]  [SPEAKER_18]: You're on the air.
[53:03.180 --> 53:03.580]  [SPEAKER_10]: Hi.
[53:04.040 --> 53:05.180]  [SPEAKER_10]: This is Jim from Westchester.
[53:05.580 --> 53:05.940]  [SPEAKER_18]: Hello.
[53:06.800 --> 53:07.000]  [SPEAKER_18]: Hi.
[53:07.160 --> 53:07.440]  [SPEAKER_18]: Go ahead.
[53:08.060 --> 53:12.820]  [SPEAKER_10]: I called at one-a-hater number that you just gave out, and it doesn't report back my phone number.
[53:12.920 --> 53:13.500]  [SPEAKER_18]: It doesn't?
[53:13.640 --> 53:15.640]  [SPEAKER_07]: Does it report back zeros or some other number?
[53:15.740 --> 53:16.280]  [SPEAKER_10]: It does zeros.
[53:16.760 --> 53:21.860]  [SPEAKER_07]: That probably means that you're in a very old exchange where they aren't passing that information out.
[53:22.660 --> 53:24.220]  [SPEAKER_10]: So for now, no one can get that.
[53:24.360 --> 53:26.440]  [SPEAKER_18]: What part of the state are you in?
[53:26.860 --> 53:28.080]  [SPEAKER_10]: Westchester, up by White Plains.
[53:28.960 --> 53:31.900]  [SPEAKER_18]: White Plains is a pretty modern area.
[53:31.920 --> 53:33.480]  [SPEAKER_18]: Are you in White Plains or somewhere else?
[53:33.580 --> 53:35.480]  [SPEAKER_10]: Just the outskirts of White Plains, Pleasantville.
[53:35.600 --> 53:37.860]  [SPEAKER_18]: Do you happen to know what kind of switch you're on?
[53:38.180 --> 53:38.960]  [SPEAKER_10]: I do not.
[53:39.300 --> 53:41.020]  [SPEAKER_10]: Do you have the caller ID?
[53:41.740 --> 53:45.500]  [SPEAKER_10]: The caller ID will not be in this area until July, they were telling me.
[53:45.820 --> 53:46.860]  [SPEAKER_18]: How about call waiting?
[53:46.960 --> 53:47.320]  [SPEAKER_18]: Do you have that?
[53:47.960 --> 53:48.560]  [SPEAKER_10]: Call waiting.
[53:48.720 --> 53:49.460]  [SPEAKER_10]: I've had for like a year.
[53:50.060 --> 53:51.380]  [SPEAKER_18]: You should be able to pass that along.
[53:51.520 --> 53:53.000]  [SPEAKER_18]: And you're just dialing direct, 1-800.
[53:53.000 --> 53:56.800]  [SPEAKER_10]: I dialed four times, and all four times said, uh, zero, zero, zero.
[53:57.240 --> 53:59.680]  [SPEAKER_07]: Why don't you leave your name and phone number on there?
[54:00.160 --> 54:03.760]  [SPEAKER_07]: Because we have another number that's going through Sprint rather than through AT&T.
[54:04.020 --> 54:06.580]  [SPEAKER_07]: And we'd like to see if that information is being passed along.
[54:06.840 --> 54:12.860]  [SPEAKER_07]: Because we have found some differences between how AT&T handles ANI and how Sprint handles ANI.
[54:12.980 --> 54:15.000]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, because I'm on AT&T on both my lines.
[54:15.240 --> 54:19.300]  [SPEAKER_07]: Right, well, I'm talking about as far as whether the 800 number is AT&T or Sprint.
[54:19.380 --> 54:21.040]  [SPEAKER_18]: Yeah, it wouldn't make a difference what your line was.
[54:21.040 --> 54:24.080]  [SPEAKER_07]: And our 800 number is an AT&T 800 number.
[54:24.660 --> 54:27.700]  [SPEAKER_07]: There's another 800 number that works the same as the Sprint number.
[54:27.780 --> 54:29.680]  [SPEAKER_07]: However, we can't give that out to the public.
[54:29.860 --> 54:32.420]  [SPEAKER_07]: But we would like to compare the differences between them.
[54:32.700 --> 54:33.380]  [SPEAKER_10]: Another question.
[54:33.980 --> 54:36.420]  [SPEAKER_10]: Someone was telling me, I think it was Virginia phone systems.
[54:36.540 --> 54:36.900]  [SPEAKER_10]: I don't know.
[54:37.880 --> 54:42.820]  [SPEAKER_10]: There was a number you could call, like a star six-something.
[54:43.320 --> 54:48.420]  [SPEAKER_10]: And if you called it and someone called you with their number blocked, it would never go through.
[54:48.780 --> 54:49.520]  [SPEAKER_07]: That's correct.
[54:49.520 --> 54:54.940]  [SPEAKER_07]: In fact, CMP Telephone implemented that feature, which is a call, caller ID, block, block.
[54:55.280 --> 54:57.000]  [SPEAKER_10]: Is your hotel going to have something like that?
[54:57.180 --> 55:04.540]  [SPEAKER_07]: And what that does is if someone does the star six-seven before they call your number, it won't even connect the number, so your phone won't ring.
[55:04.740 --> 55:09.220]  [SPEAKER_07]: They get an intercept message saying that this person doesn't accept blocked phone calls.
[55:09.460 --> 55:15.700]  [SPEAKER_07]: Of course, if you blocked your phone call through a service such as 900 Stopper, that doesn't activate the caller ID, block.
[55:15.840 --> 55:22.500]  [SPEAKER_07]: It simply prevents your phone number from going through, which means your call would then go through to someone that enabled such a feature.
[55:23.080 --> 55:24.620]  [SPEAKER_10]: Do you think New York Telephone would offer that?
[55:24.740 --> 55:25.800]  [SPEAKER_10]: If so, what would, you know...
[55:25.800 --> 55:29.380]  [SPEAKER_18]: I doubt New York Telephone will offer that because I think people will object to it if they do.
[55:29.780 --> 55:32.440]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, I'm just curious because, I mean, I didn't see that in any of the brochure.
[55:32.580 --> 55:38.100]  [SPEAKER_18]: Well, there are states like New Jersey which doesn't even offer blocking at all because people didn't object to it.
[55:39.460 --> 55:44.960]  [SPEAKER_18]: So, it will happen occasionally, but I don't think states like New York or California will allow such things to go through.
[55:45.320 --> 55:51.620]  [SPEAKER_07]: Unless, of course, it turns into a big moneymaker with CMP Telephone, and I don't suspect that that service will.
[55:52.380 --> 55:54.700]  [SPEAKER_10]: All right, well, I'd like to tell you guys we're on a nice show.
[55:54.900 --> 55:55.260]  [SPEAKER_18]: Thank you.
[55:55.620 --> 55:55.840]  [SPEAKER_18]: All right.
[55:55.940 --> 55:56.460]  [SPEAKER_18]: Thanks for calling.
[55:57.080 --> 56:01.820]  [SPEAKER_18]: Glenn, could you tell us something about the differences between the way AT&T and Sprint handle ANI?
[56:02.000 --> 56:16.380]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, what we found is that in Michigan, if you dial star 6-7 before a call to an 800 number with AT&T, it blocks your phone number from being conveyed to the AT&T 800 number.
[56:16.520 --> 56:20.920]  [SPEAKER_07]: If you do it before a Sprint 800 number, your phone number is not blocked.
[56:21.020 --> 56:24.820]  [SPEAKER_07]: We found that the only area that this takes place in is Michigan.
[56:24.820 --> 56:35.960]  [SPEAKER_07]: Again, in speaking with AT&T, they come up with some explanation that it has to do with the equal access for 800 numbers, which goes into effect May 1st.
[56:36.000 --> 56:37.060]  [SPEAKER_18]: The portability, you mean?
[56:37.780 --> 56:42.540]  [SPEAKER_07]: On May 1st, any 800 number can go to any 800 number carrier.
[56:42.740 --> 56:42.960]  [SPEAKER_18]: Okay.
[56:42.960 --> 56:50.680]  [SPEAKER_07]: Where today, for example, all 2-3-5 numbers are AT&T, all 9-4-5 are MCI and so forth.
[56:51.440 --> 57:00.860]  [SPEAKER_07]: MCI and Sprint apparently updated their hardware and software for equal access back before December, and AT&T has not yet done that.
[57:01.320 --> 57:11.020]  [SPEAKER_07]: AT&T says that once their software is upgraded for the equal access arrangements, it's that from no place will you be able to block the phone numbers going into AT&T lines.
[57:11.220 --> 57:23.520]  [SPEAKER_07]: The other difference is with the operator-assisted call, where AT&T came back with the series of all zeros, going through Sprint, you would get the area code plus an operator number.
[57:23.900 --> 57:29.620]  [SPEAKER_07]: AT&T also claims that this information will be identical to Sprint on equal access day.
[57:29.800 --> 57:38.500]  [SPEAKER_07]: And really what it comes down to with AT&T is that even though they charge you just a few cents more for the call, they're providing less than their competing companies.
[57:39.160 --> 57:46.340]  [SPEAKER_18]: That's interesting that you're saying that *67, which is meant to block caller ID, is actually, with AT&T, blocking ANI.
[57:46.520 --> 57:54.020]  [SPEAKER_07]: In calls from the Michigan-Bell area, for example, in Illinois, *67 does not block it.
[57:55.220 --> 58:04.820]  [SPEAKER_07]: California, they don't have... Caller ID has been approved, but with too much regulatory nonsense, the phone company has decided not to implement it there, so there's no mechanism to block it.
[58:04.820 --> 58:09.920]  [SPEAKER_07]: And there's a number of other states that we've tried the *67 in and had it not block the calls.
[58:10.060 --> 58:15.660]  [SPEAKER_07]: But in Michigan, a *67 does not block your number going to a Sprint 800 number.
[58:15.900 --> 58:17.100]  [SPEAKER_18]: All right, Glenn, we're out of time.
[58:17.280 --> 58:22.940]  [SPEAKER_18]: I want to thank you for being part of the show tonight and give you the opportunity to give out any phone numbers or addresses you need to.
[58:22.940 --> 58:32.240]  [SPEAKER_07]: If people would like to write to us, they can write to us at Full Disclosure, Box 903, Libertyville, Illinois, 60048.
[58:32.520 --> 58:36.620]  [SPEAKER_07]: We can send out a free information package or a subscription is $29.95.
[58:37.900 --> 58:38.260]  [SPEAKER_18]: Okay.
[58:38.480 --> 58:42.180]  [SPEAKER_18]: Again, thank you for being on the program and good luck with this venture.
[58:42.500 --> 58:47.400]  [SPEAKER_18]: And hopefully you'll get through to a lot of people and educate them as to just how easy it is for their phone numbers to get out.
[58:47.400 --> 58:47.800]  [SPEAKER_07]: Right.
[58:47.960 --> 58:48.280]  [SPEAKER_07]: Thank you.
[58:48.400 --> 58:50.300]  [SPEAKER_07]: And we can repeat that 800 number for you.
[58:50.460 --> 58:53.200]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's 800-235-1414.
[58:58.380 --> 59:01.300]  [SPEAKER_18]: And that's pretty much all the time we have today.
[59:03.420 --> 59:05.320]  [SPEAKER_18]: The program is off the hook.
[59:05.680 --> 59:06.780]  [SPEAKER_18]: This is Emanuel Goldstein.
[59:07.580 --> 59:09.120]  [SPEAKER_18]: Thanks to everybody for calling in.
[59:09.220 --> 59:15.120]  [SPEAKER_18]: And we'll be back again next week with another program of technology and advances in civilization and that kind of thing.