WBAI and Michio Kaku joining us on the morning show and talking about the future of technology.
In fact, the future is here.
212-279-3400.
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Coming up next is Emanuel Goldstein.
Don't forget it's 7 p.m. tonight.
Ivan Van Surdem.
Professor Ivan Van Surdem will talk about blacks in the field of science and invention.
And at 8 o'clock, he'll be followed by Michio Kaku, plus a whole lot of interesting things
today.
So, please stay tuned.
My name is Bernard White.
I'm Amy Goodman.
And until next time, stay strong and pay close attention.
This is Emanuel Goldstein.
And this is also WBAI New York.
And you know, as a token of how much this place means to me, I've dragged myself up
out of bed at this ungodly hour for me, anyway, 9.34 in the morning.
Usually the program off the hook is on the air Wednesday nights at 10 p.m.
But today, today is a very special day.
Today is the first of WBAI's marathon.
First day of WBAI's marathon.
And we want this to be a big day in our history.
We're going to be talking about all kinds of fascinating bits of technology and things
that will affect you.
Whether you want them to or not, we'll be answering questions and raising some issues
that you might know about, and again, you might not know about it.
But odds are, most people around you don't know about them.
If you're on your way to work, you might not want to go today.
You might want to sit and listen to your radio all day long because it's going to be fascinating.
This is not the kind of thing you hear on any other radio station.
Stay tuned.
Off the hook is around the corner.
I hope that's understood.
Bundle it up.
You know, it used to be so simple.
It used to be that we just had our rotary dial telephones to connect us to a limited
number of places and people.
But now, you know, now it's become so difficult, so complicated.
You have different long distance companies.
You have different services, banking by phone, ATM machines, computers, networks.
The list just never seems to end, and they just keep coming up with more things every
day.
Every day, something new, ISDN around the corner, videotapes.
No, no more videotapes.
You simply choose your movies from your house.
You never even have to go out anymore.
When you go to the grocery store, everything is logged, and people know what it is you
like to buy, and you'll get junk mail.
Oh, but you won't get it in the mail.
You'll get it on your computer popping up on your screen saying what it is that you
like to eat and drink, because they know, because they keep track of everything.
And it's all logged.
Well, is it the future, or is it the present?
We don't really know.
In some places, it's kind of mixing between the two.
But we're going to hash out some of the questions, answers today, and a lot of concerns that
many of you have expressed over the past couple of years, as long as this program has been
on the air.
We're on the air at a special time today because of the WBAI Marathon, and we are, of course,
asking for your support.
And as a token of our appreciation for this place, the good people at 2600 Magazine, the
Hacker Quarterly, have donated subscriptions and T-shirts to the station as part of the
fundraiser here.
Now, we are computer hackers.
We are those evil people that infiltrate computer systems and cause all the chaos that
you're told about on the evening news, but it's not quite the way you're told about on
the evening news.
You know, it's like everything that you see on the news, they get certain fundamental
facts wrong.
And one of the things that we're going to try to do here is right those wrongs, let
you know how things really are, and let you know just what computer hackers are all about.
A lot of people have fear.
A lot of people have fear of just about anything unknown, but computer hackers in particular
represent something that is scary, represents technology out of control, something that
we don't understand that is controlling our everyday lives.
Take, for example, the phone company.
The phone company does not understand their own system.
And if you don't believe it, just call them and ask them a question.
They won't be able to give you a straight answer.
They'll give you the wrong answer, but computer hackers do understand, and that's part of
the problem in the phone company's eyes.
These computer hackers are going around not only getting into their computer systems,
but worse, worse than that, spreading information, spreading information at meetings, over the
telephone, ironically enough, in magazines, and now on radio stations.
You know, they just keep getting bolder and bolder.
And in a moment, you're going to meet one of the premier hackers of the world, and we'll
tell you what's going on in other parts of the globe.
But for now, we do want you to give us a call and pledge your support.
For a pledge of $75, you can get a full year of 2600 Magazine, which is really the primary
voice of computer hacking in the world.
It comes out four times a year, 48 pages of all kinds of information, and we'll go
into some of that over the next couple of hours, because a lot of it is causing some
controversy in and of itself.
Some legal papers are being filed even as we speak, I think.
And also, in addition to that one year of 2600 Magazine, a 2600 T-shirt, which no doubt
will make you the subject of all kinds of attention, some of it wanted, some of it unwanted.
Those two items come with your support of WBAI 212-279-3400.
Give us a call and pick up those particular things and start the process of learning about
something that will affect you, whether you want it to or not.
Stay tuned.
You can get it if you really want, you can get it if you really want, you can get it
The fact is, anything is within our reach.
We just have to know enough to want it, and the same holds true for all these new gimmicks
that are coming out.
You know, they're gimmicks.
They're meant for people maybe not like you.
They're meant for the businessmen.
They're meant for the privileged, but you know you have the right to take it.
You have the right to reach out and grab things as they come at you.
It's not stealing.
It's learning.
Yes, stealing tangible objects is, of course, stealing, but reaching out to learn something
cannot be considered stealing.
Reading books, trading information, asking questions, these are all healthy things.
These are all things that we are put on this earth to do.
And that's part of what we do here at WBAI, and that's part of what every good computer
hacker does.
And speaking of good computer hackers, we have live on the phone from Amsterdam one
of the world's, I guess, most dangerous hackers in the world, in the eyes certainly of Interpol
and the NSA and all those kind of people, Rob from Haktik, the editor of Haktik magazine,
which is the Dutch equivalent of 2600.
Rob, are you there?
Yeah, I'm here.
Hello there.
How are you?
Now, you have quite an event coming up this August in Amsterdam.
This is something that's going to be involving hackers all over the world.
Perhaps you could share the information for the first time, I might add, with the general
public of New York, or really any part of the United States on a major radio station,
I believe.
Let's break the story right here.
Yeah.
We're organizing an event called Hacking at the End of the Universe, and it's really unique
in its kind because it's going to bring together lots of hackers, in other words, people that
are interested in exploring computer technology, there's going to be phone freaks, people that
enjoy playing with the phones, as you may know.
And there's also going to be people that come from Dutch law enforcement, which has recently
started to crack down on hacking and phone freaking.
I'll talk about that a little bit more later.
But we're going to bring together a lot of different people, people from the Dutch computer
industry and people from all over the world.
And this Congress is going to take place, and this is where it really gets interesting,
it's going to take place on a large campground where almost everybody's going to stay in
tents.
And then we have a large building where some of the computers are, but if you want, it's
going to be very sunny.
This is the start of August, which is always very warm in Holland.
And we can even bring Ethernet to your tent if you want.
So we are hooked up to all these international computer networks like the Internet, and you
can be connected to it from your tent.
Now this is reminiscent of, except for the tents, of course, for the Galactic Hacker
Party of 1989.
How is it going to be different from that?
It's going to be the same in some ways that some of the topics that we are discussing
and the stresses that we put on certain things are going to be the same, but the setting
is going to be different.
Now as far as the international scene, could you describe that for the, there are some
people listening this morning, I'm sure, that have not heard of hackers from the hacker
point of view.
Who are these people, and how do they have the audacity to meet in public areas?
Well, up until, let's say, half a year ago or a year ago, hacking wasn't really viewed
as anything dangerous in Holland, but of course the big corporate world caught up with this
tiny island of freedom out there on the other side of the ocean, and Holland had to adopt
laws to ban hacking, to ban looking around in computer systems without breaking something.
Like there's this group of people here in Holland that is just hanging around in university
computers and going from one computer to the next and trying to find ways to connect between
computers that aren't directly connected, and well, that's now illegal even here in
Holland, even though these people are not, I mean, breaking things, deleting files, changing
files has always been a criminal offense here in Holland, but just looking around was not,
and now it is as well.
And I think that's not a very good development, because the hacking world and the computer
security world here were closely linked, people knew each other, and the whole thing was fairly
open, and my fear is that that's all going to disappear.
Now, when did things actually begin to change?
We've talked to you a couple of times over the years, and Holland has always been kind of the
last bastion of freedom for those people that were exploring computer systems, so now things
seem to be a lot more restrictive, but when did it actually happen?
Hello?
Yeah, we're getting loud clicks on the line, it's the BAI phone system here, but when did
things begin to change?
When did things begin to change, well, about after the Galactic Hacker Party, the Dutch
government said that they intended to make hacking illegal, and it took them until 1992
to put any real effort behind it to get it through Parliament and everything, this new
computer crime law that they have adopted.
And at the time that they were making the last moves, you also saw articles in tabloid
newspapers of dangerous hackers doing lots of damage to systems, which later all turned
out to be nonsense, but because they influenced the public at large, there was no real trouble
in getting these laws through Parliament, and now we're facing the situation where one
of our staff members of the magazine was just held for 38 days for just hanging around in
university computer systems doing no damage whatsoever.
So it seems like, you know, it's hard to say, but an element of fear and suspicion seems
to have taken root over there, and I guess you got a lot of that from us, didn't you?
Well, a lot of the initial hacker paranoia started because the internet was being hacked
a lot from Holland in, I guess it was 1990, 1991, and some places on the military network
were being hacked from Holland, and that caused a lot of angry reaction from the US public
opinion.
Uh-huh.
Now, what is the Dutch public opinion, though, of hackers?
Well, it has changed over the last few years.
Dutch public opinion used to see hackers as, well, people that were exploring computer
systems and that could potentially tell them where the mistakes were.
We had very good PR going for up to one and a half, two years ago, but the nice thing
is that it's beginning to change the other direction again.
We are not just getting bad press anymore.
We have been for the last one and a half years.
But people see that it's ridiculous to lock up somebody for 38 days for basically just
hanging around.
Now, as far as that particular person who was detained for 38 days, what has the reaction
been to that?
Is that likely to be a catalyst for some sort of a change?
Yes, it is.
I spoke to the people at the university that helped in his apprehension, and they're just
system administrators trying to do their job, but they told me that they are not going to
participate in apprehending hackers if this is what happens to them.
They don't view hacking that seriously.
They see it as a nuisance, and they definitely don't see it the way I see it, but they don't
want to participate in locking somebody up for a month plus for something like this either.
They don't see it that seriously.
So the police is basically biting themselves because they are reacting so fiercely to it
that they're alienating the people that should be helping them in apprehending the hackers.
That's never a good thing to do.
We haven't seen much of that kind of thing over here.
There seems to be a lot of ignorance on all fronts here with the universities, the law
enforcement, and even the public to a large degree because of the media.
They all seem to be affected by one another.
Now, you've got a fairly good way of reaching out to the media and to the public.
Do they listen to you over there?
That's beginning to change, as I said.
We've had fairly bad press for about a year and a half, but now people are beginning to
see...
Well, it's hard not to see that something is wrong if you see somebody locked up for
looking around in a public computer system and then hearing stories from him where he
sees murderers, rapists, bank robbers go in and then go out three days later and new
ones come in.
I mean, he's seen like ten generations of people that stab other people go in and out
of prison while he was there.
That is shocking.
It's really hard to imagine how people could consider hackers to be criminals of the sort
that rapists and murderers would be, but there are people that believe that.
I'm sure there's people listening now that actually think all hackers should be locked
away because they're dangerous people.
What would you say to somebody like that?
Sorry?
What would you say to somebody that believes hackers are actually dangerous people?
You say it's hard to believe that people see hackers as dangerous criminals.
I don't find that hard to believe at all.
If you look at society as becoming more and more computerized and more and more dependent
on information technology, then people that understand the information technology better
than the government are dangerous, very, very dangerous in the eyes of the government.
The government is using the media to portray this fear and they're using very simple techniques.
If you have a hacker that can break into computer systems, all you need to tell the media is,
well, imagine what this guy could have done if he broke into a hospital computer system.
Your child with cancer could have been radiated with ten times the normal dose.
And there you go.
The general public says, yeah, these guys are dangerous, hang them, hang them.
It's very easy.
The emotions being played out, the tricks that are being played are very cheap and very
easy, but I do understand the genuine fear at the sight of the government or the people
in power, whether you believe that's the government or not.
Well, you know, I find that it's easy to overcome those fears if you become educated, if you
start talking to people and become part of the forum yourself, whether it be by participating
in the Internet, going to a hacker meeting, calling in on the radio and asking questions.
I think people will find that hackers are generally very open with information and that's,
of course, one of the reasons why they're considered so dangerous.
But as you said, most of it is what if, what if somebody had done this to the hospital
computer system.
I remember one time back in the Martin Luther King Day AT&T crash a couple of years ago,
it was said from the very beginning that it was a software glitch, it had nothing to do
with hackers.
And I remember one of the trade magazines, I'm not sure if it was Information Week or
Communications Daily, they all confused me with their titles, but they put out an editorial
saying something to the effect of, well, it wasn't caused by a hacker, but it could
have been, and therefore we have to make the laws stronger so that the penalty for this
kind of thing will be even stricter.
Something that wasn't even caused by a hacker and they want to penalize people even more
for it.
It seems to me that stealing is always going to be stealing, vandalism is always going
to be vandalism, crime is easily defined.
So when you add the computer aspect to it and say, well, if you used a computer, you
committed a worse crime, I think that's simply going to make people afraid of computers,
make people suspicious of technology, and it's a very unhealthy thing.
However, if you want to keep technology out of the hands of the have-nots, then that's
exactly the path that you will choose to lead if you're a government official.
By making somebody totally afraid of something and totally uncomprehensive towards it, it's
a very good way of making sure that they don't mess around with it.
Sure.
There has to be a myth surrounding it.
Take computer fraud, the term in itself.
We had, what was it, 15, 20 years ago, people committing fraud by using the book that they
wrote down the company figures in, and they did it in pencil instead of in pen, and then
they erased it and put new figures in by pen, and then they could steal money that way from
the company.
Now, this same person, not by his own will, because he hated the things at first, this
same person has a PC on his desk, and five years down the road, he found out, hey, this
is really much easier.
I can erase figures much easier, change them much nicer.
This thing is a much nicer tool for my fraud.
And suddenly this person is a computer criminal.
This person has to be treated in a completely new way.
We need new laws to treat him.
No, we don't.
It's the same old person doing the same old fraud, he's just using the tool that's in
front of him.
When we gave him a pen and a pencil, he used a pen and a pencil, and when we gave him a
PC, he used his PC.
And now they're trying to tell us that we need a whole new ethics and a whole new way
of thinking to combat this new type of crime.
That's no new type of crime.
It's always been there, it will always be there.
Crime really doesn't tend to change, the devices for committing crime changes, but that doesn't
change the actual crime in itself.
I found that the vast majority of hackers, and I know quite a few of them, have a good
sense of values.
They know what is right, they know what is wrong, and that doesn't come from anything
but your upbringing, your society values that are instilled into you.
Somebody on a computer system is not going to suddenly lose that sense of values if they're
wandering around in some huge corporate machine.
One thing that always comes up in these discussions and debates and things like that are the analogies,
the inevitable analogies of, well, I don't want somebody walking around inside my house.
How do you respond to those analogies, as far as breaking into computer systems?
I usually respond to them by saying, a university computer is like a university library, it's
not like your personal house.
And I'd like breaking into a university computer to be treated like breaking into the university
library and just reading books.
If you're not breaking anything, and if you do, it has to be treated like breaking into
the university library and destroying books.
But it shouldn't be treated like breaking into somebody's house, because it is not,
in the case of internet-connected main computers of universities.
They are public facilities, students are allowed to log in there, students are allowed to walk
into that place, which makes it a public place owned by the university, in the case of that
type of systems.
It's interesting too, when you mention that it's not like breaking into a house, it's
strange how hackers have gotten this image of not respecting people's privacy, when in
actuality I think computer hackers respect people's privacy more than anybody else because
they're so aware of how fragile it is and how easy it is to manipulate and corrupt.
In fact, hackers have been the leading proponents of encryption, of ways of sending mail back
and forth so that other people cannot read it, ways of scrambling telephones so that
other people cannot listen in to you.
All of those things are very, very possible today.
People are constantly listening in, there's more ways to listen in on phone calls today
than ever before, there's more ways to intercept mail today, undetected, than ever before.
And hackers know this, hackers know how to prevent this and hackers know what kind of
things to push for, however they're not being given credit for that and rather they're being
thwarted in those efforts by government, among other concerns, that want to be able to continue
to monitor, eavesdrop, listen in.
I just think it's very ironic that these people, the hackers, are the ones being cast as the
people that don't care about privacy, in actuality they know a lot about privacy and if it were
in their hands I think we'd all be a lot better off.
Yeah, well, I don't know if you've discussed this with your listeners, but there's this
hideous plan by the US government to market a chip called the Clipper chip.
Yes, in fact we have been talking about that and I should point out that in about an hour,
around 11 o'clock, we're going to be speaking with Phil Zimmerman, who developed PGP, which
is an encryption program that's causing a bit of a stir in the US government, among
other places, so we'll be talking to him in about an hour, but yes, Rob, I'm kind of concerned
as to what your reaction to the Clipper chip was.
Well, the Clipper chip, I'll explain it briefly because you're going to go into all this much
further with Phil Zimmerman, I'm sure.
The Clipper chip is a device that the US government is going to offer to people that
want secure encryption, because right now there is no real secure encryption algorithm
that is allowed for use by private people in the United States, because the only encryption
that is officially government certified is DES, the Data Encryption Standard, but over
the last 10 years, people have come to realize that it has been made faulty from the beginning
by the National Security Agency, just to be able to listen in to conversations and digital
secrets that are being kept.
So right now, what they're doing is they're developing a chip that is more secure, but
they're keeping the keys themselves.
So two separate agencies that still have to be set up are keeping the keys.
So if somebody is using a pair of these chips to communicate, these chips are also sending
their serial numbers, and if they have a wiretap license or there is an intelligence reason
for tapping the phone conversation or whatever, then they can get the two halves of the keys
at these two agencies and listen in to the conversation anyway.
Which means you can have secure encryption, but you shall not use encryption to keep secrets
from your government, because that is what they fear.
They fear that if they don't come up with a standard, somebody else will, and it may
be a standard that they're not able to listen in to.
And their next move is going to be to make encryption illegal, and they've been preparing
that move for quite a while, and they're going to use the argument, well, what if
drug dealers use encryption?
We need to be able to listen in to their communication.
So what they're going to do is they're going to make all other forms of encryption illegal.
So it's a necessary move to make encryption impossible, is to supply their own form of
encryption that is sort of secure against, well, what is it, business espionage, that
type of thing.
That's something that's definitely a cause for concern, because what happens when that
day arrives?
Do you think that day is far away where they'll actually say encryption is illegal?
Well, it's kind of pointless to develop this chip and to set up these agencies and to do
all this work if somebody can just buy another chip and do it in a form of encryption that
is secure, and that they do have to go through a lot of trouble for to crack it.
But I'm going to ask this of Phil later on in the program, but how in the world are they
going to be able to prevent somebody from encrypting a file?
How are they going to be able to do that?
If I want to send you a message on the Internet and I encrypt it in a particular way, am I
going to be arrested for, and how are they going to know that I'm using a program like
that?
Well, they can just try to decrypt it, and if they can't decrypt it, you must be encrypting
it.
And if you're encrypting it and you're not, and the data stream does not contain the serial
number for your Clipper chip, it means you're using an illegal encryption technique.
And yes, that is going to be illegal.
It's the only way, it's the only way they have to keep their privilege of listening
into everybody's secrets.
Well, you know, those words are probably the scariest I've heard in a long time, that they're
actually going to attempt something like that.
And I can't say for sure that I'm 100% convinced that they are going to do that, because it
just seems like such a losing proposition for the government to try that.
Well, would you buy the Clipper chip if law allowed you to use an encryption algorithm
that the government could not listen into?
I think even companies would rather have an encryption algorithm that had no backdoor
than an encryption algorithm that only the government had the backdoor to.
I think even commercial people would rather buy something else if they had the choice.
So the logical conclusion is that you can only market the Clipper chip if you take away
the choice.
In other words, all other means of encryption are going to be illegal.
Yeah, but you don't take away the freedom of choice to make something succeed in the
marketplace.
You know, something has to win out because it's a superior product, because it's cost-effective.
You don't simply...
No, no, no, no, no, no, no.
You just scare the public by saying, look, we found this one drug dealer, and he's using
this encryption program called PGP, and he's encrypting his communication, and therefore
he's poisoning your children with all these hideous chemicals, and we cannot do anything
about it because he's hiding all his evidence with this hideous program called PGP, and
all this could be stopped if we just make it illegal.
Well, that's certainly something we have to keep an eye out for.
What do you suggest for people that aren't technologically inclined?
What should they be watching for here?
What do you mean, what should they be watching for?
How does somebody that's not as active as the two of us, as far as computer hackers
and things like that, how do they have any input in this?
How do they follow the news?
What do they look out for?
They should look into the existing encryption programs and read what is being written about
them, because quite a lot is being written about them on public forums, on the internet
and elsewhere, on computer networks.
Well, I guess what I'm asking is, somebody, say, that doesn't really have a need for encryption
right now, someone that maybe doesn't even have a computer, should they even be concerned
about this?
Is this something that's going to affect other people besides us?
Well, it affects everybody's right to keep secrets.
If you don't feel you need the right to keep secrets ever, then this doesn't concern you, really.
Uh-huh.
And I guess it boils down to, if you believe that only guilty people keep secrets, and
if you want every single aspect of your life to be on display, if you believe what Ed Meese
said about only the guilty having something to hide, and everybody else should not have
anything to worry about, it's, you know, it's...
I'm sorry.
It's hard to overcome with emotion over there.
But these are hard decisions, hard questions to ask.
And folks, they do concern all of us, not just those of us in the computer world.
This is...
We're talking about freedom of speech here.
We're talking about the future, and it's going to be decided electronically, because that's
where we're headed.
Rob, I want to thank you very much for being on the show today, and also give the information
again about the Hacker Event in August in Amsterdam and how people can get over there.
The Hacker Event in August is called Hacking at the End of the Universe, and it's happening
the 4th, the 5th, and the 6th of August here in Holland.
And they can get in touch with us by dialing Country Code 3-1, City Code 2-0, and then
the number 6-0-0-1-4-8-0.
So that...
I'll repeat that.
Country Code 3-1, City Code 2-0, and then the number is 6-0-0-1-4-8-0.
Okay, just stick an 0-1-1 in front of that and a pound sign at the end, and they'll probably
go through real speedy-like.
Yeah.
Okay.
And the actual date's again?
The actual date, it's 4th, 5th, and 6th of August.
And the total cost is about...
What is it these days?
$60?
A hundred Dutch guilders for the three days.
That does not include your travel expenses.
You can stay at our place in your own tent.
What else does it include?
You can go to the lectures.
We have...
We are organizing some public panel discussions.
There's interesting workshops.
Well, everything you can imagine, really.
Okay.
And just a good way to meet the hackers and find out what it's all about.
Yeah.
This transmission is coming to you approximately halfway between the Moon and the Earth.
McDonnell Mathers.
Hior HER.
I'm sorry to bother you now.
I'm on a special diet so I can't have some foods,
but I wanted to take some McDonald's
for a while now.
Could you possibly tell me, uh, what exactly goes into a Big Mac?
Okay. On a Big Mac, it has the beef, the, um, hamburger meat, right?
Uh-huh.
And it has a special sauce.
It has a special sauce with onions and lettuce and two pickles and a slice of cheese.
Now, do you know what the special sauce is, sister?
Um, could you hold on for one second?
Yeah, I can hold on.
Alright.
Hold on for a second.
Oh, hi.
He wants to know what the Mac sauce is made of.
Well, now, wait. That ain't, that ain't that.
No, it's not. He's saying that they were customers of his.
Wait a minute.
No, he can't do that?
That's not required information for us to be giving out to people now.
Right.
Alright.
He said he's on a special diet. He can't eat.
Oh, wait. What, what, what can't he eat?
Why don't you ask him what he can't eat and if it's there, then that's how we'll do it.
Okay.
Right?
Hello, um, what can you not eat?
Well, I'm supposed to have low-sodium foods with, like, not a lot of salt.
Uh-huh.
And I can't have things with iodine.
Uh-huh.
Or glycerin.
Uh-huh.
Or hypoglycerates.
Hypo, hypoglycerates?
Yeah.
Uh-huh. Well, you can, you can have a Big Mac, then.
Okay. Thank you very much.
The number you have reached, one, has been changed.
The new number is two.
Please make a note of it.
Please repeat.
The number you have reached has been changed.
The new number has been disconnected.
The number you have reached has been disconnected.
You'll be up to date on all the hacker news and all the new technology that's going on.
Big Brother events.
Oh, Big Brother is everywhere.
Registering what videos you take out.
Logging your phone calls.
Keeping track of your computer messages.
Decrypting.
Just watching through the cameras.
24 hours a day.
But you can be one up on Big Brother by knowing where he is.
By knowing when he's likely to strike next.
And maybe by being able to do something about it.
212-279-3400
Also, I should point out Ghost in the Machine with Victoria Starr will be back after our fundraiser.
So for all those tuning in for that particular program, it's coming back.
Have no fear.
Alright, time for some news.
And there's always news.
This is something we mentioned last week.
And we feel we should get a little bit more detail.
The Chinese government has said that it has executed convicted hacker Xi Biao.
As a warning to others that computer crime does not pay.
That's right, things can always get worse.
Biao, who worked as an accountant at the Agricultural Bank of China.
Embezzled more than 122,000 pounds over three months in 1991.
By forging bank deposit slips.
He was caught when he and an accomplice tried to transfer some of the money to the province of Shenzhen in southern China.
Well, you know, I think it's wrong to execute somebody for that kind of a crime.
But I also think it's wrong to call them a hacker.
Because stealing money really doesn't have anything to do with hacking.
Now maybe figuring out how to do it, that might be a clever hack in itself.
But stealing is still stealing.
Make no mistake about that.
212-279-3400 is our telephone number.
Please give us a call and show your support.
In other news.
Actually, this is kind of like an offering.
Something that maybe a couple of you out there might be interested in.
The San Diego Computer Fair of 1993 is looking for the most awful.
Woeful tale of abuse suffered by a human at the hands of a computer.
Think you might qualify?
The suffering human will win a weekend in beautiful San Diego to try and forget that horrible episode in his or her life.
Send your 1,000 word submission to Computer Nightmare Contest.
Computer Edge Magazine.
PO Box 83086.
San Diego, California.
92138.
The worst tale of abuse suffered by a human at the hands of a computer.
Well, I'm sure this story is out there and we always welcome your cards and letters telling us what's being done.
What's happening.
How people are being victimized.
Whether it be by caller ID or TRW.
We'll be talking a little bit about caller ID too this hour.
We always do.
It's a favorite topic around here.
Here's a submission to the Risk Digest.
Concerning caller ID, the other evening I received a number from an upset woman.
Actually, this person meant I received a call.
I imagine that's what he's trying to say.
It appears that her caller ID box told her she had just received a call from my number.
The only call I had made that evening yielded me a pizza and the number did not resemble hers.
I did not ask her to describe the call because she seemed upset, but I gather I would not have wanted to be accused of making it.
Does anybody know whether this happens often?
Does the caller ID report include an error check?
Are all boxes required to verify this check?
Well, right now, I don't know if there is such a check.
The data is sent across in a 1200 baud stream of data that comes after the first ring.
So if you're able to listen in on that somehow, you will hear the data.
We're going to be broadcasting a sample of that next week on the program.
And that's really how it is transmitted, how it's interpreted.
That's really up to the machine that you have connected to the other end.
So we're still learning about that and as we learn more, we'll share the information.
We're looking for all kinds of caller ID stories and stories about the new phone company features that have recently been introduced in our area.
Have been in New Jersey for quite some time.
And what is fair and what is not fair about that?
Okay, what else is happening?
Well, this is a story that has hit the papers recently.
Everyone knows you're supposed to be very careful about not revealing your PIN number for your ATM card.
But how are you supposed to stop this new trick?
At the Buckland Hills Mall in Manchester, Connecticut last week, some scam artist installed a fake ATM machine.
That's right, a fake ATM machine.
They had negotiated with the mall, pretending to be bank officials.
And they had gotten permission to install this ATM machine.
Apparently, they even got the phone company to come in and lay down some lines.
Then they installed an ATM machine that they had stolen.
It was programmed to read off the account numbers, remember the PIN as it was typed,
then claim some kind of error and refuse to give out money.
They left the machine in the mall for a week, collecting PINs.
Then they came back, took the machine back to, quote-unquote, repair it.
And since then, they've printed up new cards and they've been using the PINs to siphon off money all over the country.
As far away as Florida, from what I understand, and it's still going on today.
Fake ATM machines.
You just can't be too careful, can you?
How about this?
Those of you that do your banking by phone.
If you use an automated telephone transaction system to do your banking,
you may be interested in this particular experience.
This contributor says he dialed in and was connected to a session in progress that belonged to another user
who probably hung up after receiving whatever information he or she requested.
Now, this person could have transferred all of their money into his account.
It could have been done, and it would not have been very difficult.
This contributor writes,
I would like to suggest to anyone using these types of services, including voicemail services,
to back all the way out of the system before hanging up.
Some systems allow you to disconnect using a command of some sort before hanging up, but many do not.
My banking system does not allow me to disconnect without hanging up,
but it does allow me to back out of the menus until I reach the main menu,
which prompts me for user password before proceeding.
From now on, I'm going to make sure I back out to that level before hanging up.
It's a scary world out there, folks.
Scary world.
People can transfer your money over the phone.
People can transfer your money over the phone.
People can capture your ATM cards,
and your PINs.
And once they have that information,
they can get your social security number.
And then, there's nothing they can't find out about you.
Your privacy is a very sacred thing,
but something that is very hard to maintain.
Well,
we have no secrets here.
We're sharing the information that we get
as we get it.
And we're passing it all around
to listeners
and to readers and
people like that.
And all we ask is a little support in exchange.
212-279-3400
We've got a couple of things to demonstrate here,
and then we will
we will get back to
other things.
We talk about certain
terminologies, and it's important, I think, to
define our terms.
To tell people what it is that we're talking about.
When we mention certain
magic tones and certain
methods of doing things,
it's important that we
explain exactly what it is we're talking about.
So, today, we're going to do just that.
Yes, we're going to do just that.
Okay.
In your telephones are
capabilities of doing all kinds of incredible things
that you've never been told about.
For obvious reasons, some not-so-obvious reasons.
For instance, do you know that
every touch-tone phone
has
extra keys?
Okay, let's take a listen to this.
Now, that wasn't what I wanted to hear.
Let's listen to this.
Regular touch-tones, you know?
Some of you might be able to even tell what these are,
but I'll go across the rows.
1-2-3
4-5-6
7-8-9
Star
Yeah, star, zero, pound.
Now, everybody has
four extra keys.
But they don't know they have these four extra keys.
It takes a little bit of wiring to get them to come out,
but the touch-tone pad is actually a 4x4 grid.
Here are the four extra keys,
which would show up on the
on the rightmost column
going down,
and they're called A-B-C-D.
This is what they sound like.
A
B
C
and D.
A little bit higher.
Let's try it one more time.
See, the touch-tone pad is actually
A-B-C-D.
See, the tones are just a little bit higher.
And those are known as
silver box tones.
Now, what are silver box tones used for?
Well,
not much.
Not much yet, anyway.
But your telephone has the capability
of using these particular tones
and of
doing
nice, magical things.
Imagine how secure, for instance,
your voicemail system
or your answering machine would be
if your access code
was one of those four digits.
Nobody would be able to get into that
because nobody has those tones.
It's very
very hard to imagine
why they're not installed on our telephones.
But
the capability is certainly there.
And if you
are in the business of designing telephones,
you might want to consider
putting those numbers back in.
Four extra digits.
Think of it.
Of course,
when you play tones for people,
they naturally assume that they're illegal,
that there's something wrong with that.
There's probably people out there now
that think we've broken some sort of law
by playing those tones over the air,
but
that's technophobia.
Plain and simple.
All right.
A couple of other more,
I guess,
I guess you'd call these
evil tones.
All right.
Here's an evil tone
that's a favorite
among
quite a few people.
Anybody know what this is?
Anybody know what this is?
That's a 2600 Hz tone.
2600 Hz tone.
A lot of people ask
why the magazine is called 2600.
Well,
years ago,
before the advent of SS7
and
all the sophistication
of the modern era,
if you made a long-distance phone call
and you did this,
apart from all the static,
you would
actually seize
a long-distance trunk.
That's right.
You'd seize a long-distance trunk
and you'd be able to control it.
And magically,
the billing computer
would not take notice of any of it.
So that's how phone freaks
got their start.
That's how they would
begin
freaking,
as the term is called.
Freaking with a PH.
So that's a 2600 Hz tone.
And then,
by
pressing a couple of other keys,
they
were able to
manipulate their way around.
Let's see if we can
actually show you what that means.
Okay,
by doing that,
they would be able to
press MF tones,
multi-frequency tones,
and make sounds
kind of like this.
And you probably have heard these
in the old days,
these particular tones.
Take a listen.
Okay,
that's basically
what you have is your
KP tone,
which begins a string,
the
telephone number,
and then
it finishes off
with a start tone.
And that's how the actual
phone company
process calls.
And if you hit the
2600 Hz,
followed by that
particular string,
you could route a call
anywhere in the world.
Plain and simple.
We have a
old-time
phone freak
slash hacker,
one of the original people
of 2600 magazine.
Dave, welcome.
Oh, good morning, Emmanuel.
I heard you playing my tone.
Yeah.
It's a magical sound,
isn't it?
It's what
a lot of people
are afraid of,
that sound.
People who work
in the phone company,
certainly,
but for a lot of other
people it evokes
fond memories
of past days.
And you know,
I should stress that
this is not about
stealing service
or things like that.
This is about
exploration,
figuring things out.
And I can explain
what I mean by that.
Dialing certain numbers
and finding operators
that you've never
even heard of.
An inward operator.
What's an inward operator?
You know,
you could wander around
the internal mechanisms
of the phone system
for quite a while.
Exploring.
I mean,
imagine finding operators,
finding tones
and people
who you never knew existed.
Finding these strange people
who existed
in cavernous
telephone company offices.
Yeah.
Who only responded
to these strange tones
and you weren't supposed
to dial them.
You could make
their phone ring.
Simple as that.
And sometimes
they're very happy
to make their phone ring.
They're very happy
to hear from somebody.
Very lonely job.
I'll say.
So that's
what those tones are.
Magical tones.
The magical tones
that a phone freak uses.
And this is a tone
that I think
a lot of people
need to hear
because it's
something that is
such an incredible scandal.
Such an incredible...
Sorry?
It's an enigma.
Well, yeah.
Sorry about that, too.
But it's...
It's unbelievable
how long this has lasted.
Simply by holding
this particular device
up to the microphone here
and playing it
over the radio,
it enables people
to make free phone calls.
It's that simple.
Just by these little beeps.
And take a listen.
And I'm sure you'll recognize
what these beeps are.
No, you won't
because it didn't work.
Let's try that again.
Okay.
We hit that.
Here we go.
No, it didn't work
this time, either.
I don't know why
it's not working.
Sometimes we have
problems.
Okay, that's why
it didn't work.
Let's try this.
Okay.
That particular sound
is what is known as
actually five Redbox tones.
What a Redbox is
is a simple way
of defeating any payphone,
any 9X
or New Jersey Bell payphone.
When it asks you for money,
all it's really listening for
and the computer is quite happy
when it hears these tones.
That's a quarter.
Five of them is a quarter.
Music to my ears.
That's a dime
and that's a nickel.
That's all it is.
Now, you may say to yourself,
well, you know,
it's horrible
that these kids
are wandering around
the streets
making all these
fraudulent calls
and ripping off
the phone company.
And, you know,
there's something
to be said for that.
You know, stealing
is always stealing.
But you have to ask yourself,
you know,
how much stealing
does the phone company
itself do?
Quite a bit.
Ask yourself that.
They charge you
for touch tones.
In New Jersey,
they charge you
to block call waiting.
They charge you
for whatever it is
they feel they can
get away with.
Now, I'm going to
prove something here.
I'm going to prove
why this is a problem.
Let's see if we can
get a dial tone.
Okay, we've got
a dial tone here.
Now, let's see if we can
actually get an operator.
A New York Telephone
operator.
New York Telephone.
Mrs. Hasfield,
may I help you?
Yes, hello.
I'm trying to find out
something about rates.
Rates, we are local
or long distance?
Actually, these are
long distance rates.
Okay, hold on
for the operator.
Thank you.
One moment for a
long distance operator
who can assist you.
This ought to be fun.
Welcome to
Metro Media
Operator Services.
Please enter the area
code and telephone
number you are calling.
Well, you see,
this doesn't help us
much at all, now does it?
Please hold.
Your call is being
transferred to a live
operator.
Oh, joy.
Well, you know,
somehow I have the
feeling this company
isn't going to be
able to help us.
Metro Media
Operator Carol,
may I help you?
Yes, I'm trying to
find information about
payphone rates.
Payphone rates?
Yes, I asked my
local operator for
long distance and
they gave me you.
Okay, sir.
For payphone rates,
it's very weird,
but the person has
to be on that payphone.
There's a dial number,
area code number
they want, and then
the operator will speak
the amount that they
have to pay because
it's different from
the payphone rate.
Okay.
All right.
Well, thank you very
much for your help.
Thank you for calling
Metro.
Oh, boy.
So that's how you
find out how much it
costs.
You make a call from
a payphone.
Boy, you know the
genius that they excrete
on these telephone calls.
Obviously, we're not
going to get the
information that way,
so is there another
number we can call
AT&T direct at?
We can dial
102-88-0.
No, we can't do that
here.
It's blocked.
How about that
800 number?
Yeah, I think we can
...
Let's give it a whirl.
Yeah.
Does it call AT&T?
I think that's it.
Let's hope so.
Anyway, there's always
a way to get through
to operators when
you need to.
To complete your call,
please press or
dial 1 now.
Oh, all right.
Thank you for calling
AT&T.
Boy, she sounds happy.
For information on
how to place an
AT&T call, press 1.
For dialing instructions
on how to place
an AT&T call,
press 2.
If you are calling
regarding your
AT&T Universal MasterCard
or Visa Credit Cards,
press 3.
If you receive a
separate bill from
AT&T for your
calling card calls
and have billing
questions,
press 4.
If you are calling
to order an
AT&T calling card...
I just want to
speak to a human.
...advise of an
address or telephone
number change
or any other reason
concerning your
AT&T calling card,
press 5.
Otherwise,
press 6 now.
What happens if I
press 6?
Okay, I'll press it.
If you are attempting
to place an
AT&T call,
for quick and
easy call completion,
please dial our
new number,
1-800-210-288.
Oh, forget it.
That's
1-800-325-425.
1-800-325-425.
1-800-325-425.
1-800-325-425.
Otherwise,
stay on the line.
Well, now,
I don't understand.
Either call our
new number or
stay on the line.
I don't understand.
AT&T,
please dial the
number you are
calling or
0 for an
operator now.
0 for an operator,
yes.
That's what I
wanted to do.
AT&T,
Mr. James,
how may I help you?
Yes, hi.
Are you an operator?
Yes, I am, sir.
Great.
I just need some
rate information.
I was hoping you
could help me.
I'll certainly try.
Okay.
I needed to know
what the rate would
be to place a
direct dial call
between a
particular number
in New York and
a particular number
in Washington,
D.C.
Okay, sir.
Will you be
dialing directly or
billing to a
calling card?
Well, I'll be
making the call
two ways.
One would be
dialing directly
to a payphone
using coins.
All right.
Well, it depends
on the time of day,
sir.
If you're making a
call from New York
to Washington,
D.C.
between the
hours of 9 to 5
and by coin,
it's $2.30
for the first minute.
If you're calling
from a residence,
it should be no
more than $0.25
a minute.
So, okay.
So, if I make the
call from a payphone,
it's going to cost
$2.30 for the
first minute.
Plus $0.25
for each additional.
Okay.
If I make it from
my house,
it'll just cost
$0.25.
It's approximately
$0.25.
Probably less.
Less tax.
Okay.
How about at night?
Night can be
between the hours
of 5 to 11.
After 11, actually.
Pardon me?
After 11 p.m.
One moment,
please.
By coin, sir,
or again residential?
By both.
Residential.
One moment,
please.
The coin
would be
$0.25
for the first
minute.
The coin
would be probably
maybe $0.25
lower.
So, it would be
$2.25
or $2.20
for the first
minute.
Okay.
So, there's a
discount, then.
Right, sir.
And then, again,
with the residential,
it should be no more
than $0.15
a minute plus tax.
$0.15.
Okay.
All right.
Thank you very much
for your help.
Bye-bye.
For calling with
AT&T.
Oh, yes.
Well, now,
maybe that,
doing that,
maybe that's why.
Because it costs
$2.30
for one minute.
A one-minute
phone call
to Washington, D.C.,
virtually any time
of the day
or night.
That's not right.
That is a rip-off.
And they
prove it
themselves.
I mean, how,
what do you think
is going through
that guy's head
where he has to
tell me that if I
go to a pay phone
to make the same call,
it's going to cost
$2.30
for one minute,
and if I do it
from my house,
it's going to cost
$0.25.
It's the same call.
Why does it cost
so much more?
Maybe with all the
people going around
playing with red boxes,
the company is still
making enough money
because of the one
or two people
that don't.
I don't know,
but it's,
it's an awfully
strange way
of doing business,
but it's actually
a very typical way
that the phone companies
do business.
But it's not how
we do business here
at WBAI,
is it?
It's not
how we
do business
here at WBAI,
is it?
212-279-3400.
Give us a call.
Show your support.
You know,
we're lagging
pretty far behind
on this particular
program.
We only have $475.
We need to raise
$2,000 by noontime,
and the way we're
going to reach
that particular goal
is through the help
of people like you,
people that can pick
up the telephone
and give a call.
212-279-3400.
Show your support
for the radio station,
and you can pledge
whatever amount
you wish.
If you pledge
a $475 amount,
though,
you will,
if you want,
that is,
you will get
the full year
of 2600 magazine,
the Hacker Quarterly,
and also a 2600
Hacker T-shirt.
Those two items
will come to you
in the mail,
and along with our
thanks for supporting
this radio station,
for keeping us going,
for keeping us
on the air.
We have one call
on the line.
I'd sure like to
make that seven,
because seven is
the maximum number
of lines we have.
That's 212-279-3400,
and we do take
Visa and MasterCard,
but unfortunately,
you can't play tones.
You do have to
call up and pledge.
And you have to
talk to a human.
We have human beings
in the tally room there,
real human beings,
and, you know,
when you call up,
you're not going to
get those machines
that say,
press one to do this,
press two to do that.
Man, I couldn't
believe that.
They were taking me
all over the place,
weren't they?
I was going on
a little trip there.
It's ridiculous.
All I wanted to do
was talk to an operator.
We don't give you
the runaround here.
We don't give you
any of that.
We're human beings.
We're a real radio station.
We're real people,
and so are you.
That's why we have
to come together,
pool our resources,
share our knowledge.
Now, this program
doesn't usually come
to you at this
particular time of day.
This is a special
outing for us,
and the reason
we're doing this
is because there are
a lot of you out there
that have never
heard this program,
that have never heard
of the various things
that we talk about.
We talk about privacy.
We talk about encryption.
I'm going to turn
into a real expert
on the subject
in just a couple of minutes,
but we do this
because there's a need
for this kind of information.
There's a definite
lack of it around.
How many technical programs
do you see on television?
How many technical columns
are there
in the daily newspapers?
Well, there's one program,
at least,
that brings you
this particular frame
of the news
that is not focused
upon in other places.
212-279-3400.
We have three calls
on the line.
We're almost halfway
to the second call.
We're almost halfway
to the third call.
We're almost halfway
to the seven
that we need
to make me happy,
anyway,
to get everybody
in the tally room busy.
You see,
there's a bunch of people
in the tally room,
and they all have a phone,
but the person
that sits in front
of phone number seven
is really depressed
because that phone
doesn't ring
because they ring
in order, you know,
and you have to fill up
the first six
before number seven rings.
So, I mean, yeah,
we want to make
that person happy,
but most importantly,
by making that person happy,
we're making everybody
happy because we're adding
to the numbers
that have already come in.
Now, the reason
we are doing this
is because you are our sponsors.
One thing you have not heard
on this radio station
in the past couple hours,
in fact,
one thing you have not heard
in the past couple of decades
is a commercial.
We don't have any.
We don't have commercials,
and, you know,
not only that,
we take that a couple
of steps further.
We don't have
news writing,
corporate sponsorships.
Never will you hear
the phrase,
this program
has been underwritten
by Mobile Foundation
or whatever.
You won't hear that here
because it's not.
We don't accept it.
Sure, they would want
to do that.
They would want
to buy this station.
They would want
to take us off the air
and put some kind
of Muzak on
in our place,
but we don't think
that's what New York needs.
New York needs
a station like WBAI,
and WBAI needs
a person like you.
212-279-3400.
Remember,
we take credit cards,
and we take whatever
you can afford
to give us.
For a pledge of $75,
however,
you will get
the full year
of 2600 Magazine,
the Hacker Quarterly,
where we stomp
on the foot
of authority a bit,
spread some information
around,
and educate people
on all kinds
of interesting things.
You know,
the most recent thing
that happened to us
over at the magazine,
we printed a list
in the winter issue.
I believe it was
winter 92-93,
and this list has
basically a collection
of AT&T offices,
and where they are located,
and their phone numbers.
You know, AT&T.
They have offices everywhere.
For instance,
let's give you
an example here.
Let's go to,
well,
Newark, New Jersey.
How's that?
Okay.
In Newark, New Jersey,
we have an office
on 95 Williams Street.
95 Williams Street
in Newark.
Now,
these are locations
of AT&T offices.
Would you believe
that we got a threatening
letter in the mail
from AT&T saying,
you're printing
proprietary information.
Stop it,
or we'll sue you.
This is the mentality
that the phone companies have,
that you cannot even
print their addresses,
let alone how
their phone systems work.
And that's the kind of thing
that we have to fight,
and we all fight
that together.
We all fight that
by remaining strong.
Different entities
come together,
whether it be
magazines,
radio stations.
The more of us out there
that are battling
this kind of injustice,
the stronger we are.
Remember,
we're individuals
banding together,
band with us.
212-279-3400.
Okay,
we had a flurry
of calls there,
and they seem
to have faded away,
so let's get
another flurry coming in.
212-279-3400.
Remember,
we have to make
that goal by noon,
and we do want
to get on with the program.
We have Phil Zimmerman,
who has created
quite a controversy
with his PGP program.
He'll be coming on
in just a couple of minutes,
and we have
all kinds of other
bits of information
we want to share with you.
Hey,
we shared
these magical tones.
We shared
other magical tones,
news events
that are going on
throughout the world,
instances of technology
fouling up and
hurting people
and doing all kinds
of nasty things.
There's an article
in today's
New York Times
about a new kind
of technology
that's being put
into place
on the front page
of the New York Times,
and you've got to
admire the Times
for putting stories
like this on the front page
occasionally,
but it's basically
a story about
record stores
and how they're going
to be changing
over the next few years.
We can actually
walk into a record store
and order a CD
by computer,
and the CD
will be made
right there for you.
And you will never
be able to run out
of CDs again
because you will
pick a certain thing
over a computer,
it will be transmitted
down these magical
phone lines,
and then digitally
inscribed onto
a blank CD.
Yeah,
that's what we're
moving down to.
Everything is going
to be digital.
Digital movies,
digital tapes,
digital video,
digital life,
you know,
it's all so digital.
And that's how
it's going to be
transmitted
over the next
few years.
And that's how
it's going to work.
They have a little
diagram here.
Basically,
participating record
companies will be
putting their recordings
in digital form
into a master
computer library,
which will be called
a regional server.
There will be
little booths
installed at
retail stores.
You go into this
booth and
they have permanent
high-speed data
links to the
regional servers.
Now a customer
inside the booth
slips a credit card
through a swipe
card reader.
The computer
built into the
booth checks
the store's
database for
information about
the customer's
past purchases
and displays a
menu of choices
tailored to the
customer.
I already see a
problem with that.
I mean,
I don't know.
What is it about
our past purchases
always being part
of our permanent
record?
It's happening
everywhere.
No matter what
you buy,
it's happening
somewhere.
Anyway,
next step,
the customer
navigates through
menus,
hopefully not as
much navigation as
we had to just do,
and makes various
selections by
touching the screen.
Video clips and
sample cuts can be
played to help
the customer
choose an album.
The computer in
the booth then
signals the
regional server to
transmit the
customer's
selection and
charge the cost
to the customer's
credit card.
The selection is
converted onto a
blank CD while
labels and packaging
are printed by a
color printer.
The manufacturing
process takes at
least six minutes.
Then,
while the customer
waits,
the booth computer
may offer related
merchandise like
concert tickets or
posters or might
even show video
clips if you're
lucky.
Then,
when the CD and
its packaging are
ready,
they appear in the
booth for the
customer to take.
Well,
you know,
that's
what
I'm
talking
about.
I'm
talking
about
what
I'm
talking
about.
I'm
talking
about
what
I'm
talking
about.
I'm
talking
about
what
I'm
talking
about.
I'm
talking
about
what
I'm
talking
about.
I'm
talking
about
what
I'm
talking
about.
I'm
talking
about
what
I'm
talking
about.
I'm
talking
about
what
I'm
talking
about.
I'm
talking
about
what
I'm
talking
about.
I'm
talking
about
what
I'm
talking
about.
I'm
talking
about
what
I'm
talking
about.
I'm
talking
about
what
I'm
talking
about.
I'm
talking
about
what
I'm
talking
about.
I'm
talking
about
what
I'm
talking
about.
I'm
talking
about
what
I'm
talking
about.
I'm
Stand up for your rights, get up, stand up Don't give up the fight, get up, stand up
Stand up for your rights, get up, stand up Don't give up the fight
You preach a man, don't tell me Heaven is under the earth
You are the bee and you don't know What life is really worth
It's not all that glitter is gold And half the story has never been told
So now we see the light We gonna stand up for our rights
Come on, get up, stand up Brother, stand up for your rights
Come on, get up, stand up Sit down, don't give up the fight
I'm begging you to get up, stand up Stand up for your rights
Get up, stand up I say don't give up the fight
Cause you know most people think A great God will come from the skies
And take away every little thing And let everybody try
But if you know what life is worth You would look for yours right here on earth
And now we see the light We gonna stand up for our rights
Come on, get up, stand up Don't make them push you around
Stand up for your rights Come on, brothers, get up, stand up
Be brave now, don't give up the fight I say get up, stand up
Stand up for your rights Don't let them hold you down
Get up, stand up Don't give up the fight
Sick and tired of this game of technology Humbly asking Jesus for his mercy
We know, we know and we understand Almighty Jack is a living man
You fool some people sometimes But you can't fool all the people all the time
And now we see the light We gonna stand up for our rights
Come on, get up, stand up Stand up for your rights
Come on, brothers, get up, stand up I say don't give up the fight
I say get up, stand up Stand up for your rights
Good evening. You've reached our voice-activated switchboard.
Please speak in a loud, clear tone of voice.
Please tell me your telephone number.
718-6134
Your telephone number is 718-6164
If this is correct, say yes. If this is not correct, say no.
Your telephone number is incorrect.
Please tell me your telephone number.
718-6134
Your telephone number is 718-6134
If this is correct, say yes. If this is not correct, say no.
Your telephone number is correct.
Please tell me your social security number.
Your social security number is what?
If this is correct, say yes. If this is not correct, say no.
Your social security number is correct.
Please describe the nature of your problem.
The nature of your problem is wrong number.
If this is correct, say yes. If this is not correct, say no.
Yes
Your problem is correct.
Please describe what you would like us to do.
You can give me credit.
What is this? This is unbelievable.
You would like credit from us.
If this is correct, say yes. If this is not correct, say no.
Yes
Please describe the amount of credit you would like.
Whatever the call costs.
I'm sorry, I must have a number in your answer.
Oh, Jesus.
If you would like us to calculate the credit, please say yes at this point.
Yes
Please tell me what number you were trying to call.
201
6132
The number is 201.
6132
If this is correct, say yes. If this is not correct, say no.
Yes
Please hold while I calculate the credit.
I can't believe they waste this much time to do this.
The amount of credit required is $17.63.
If this is acceptable, say yes. If this is not acceptable, say no.
Yes
We will mail you a check for the amount of money.
If this is acceptable, say yes. If this is not acceptable, say no.
Yes
Thank you for calling and for being so patient.
Oh, God, help me.
Please call again.
Do I hang up now?
Yes, you do.
Thank you.
Goodbye.
Goodbye.
Thank you.