Off The Hook - 1993-05-26

[00:02.350 --> 00:03.230]  [SPEAKER_12]: 279-3400.
[00:03.250 --> 00:09.430]  [SPEAKER_19]: Incidentally, it also has a special dictionary that will correct you if you're using sexist or racist comments in your literature.
[00:09.830 --> 00:11.170]  [SPEAKER_19]: 279-3400.
[00:11.970 --> 00:15.670]  [SPEAKER_19]: What it doesn't do is it doesn't get you on the air.
[00:16.010 --> 00:25.450]  [SPEAKER_19]: And the only way you can get on the air is by making a donation to WBAI so that next week you can call in when we're live on the air and you too will be on the air.
[00:25.570 --> 00:29.610]  [SPEAKER_12]: You know, actually, we want to thank everyone who has supported us in the past three weeks.
[00:29.610 --> 00:35.210]  [SPEAKER_12]: For those who might be interested in knowing, I would say combined with tonight, we'll probably raise somewhere around $7,500.
[00:35.570 --> 00:37.730]  [SPEAKER_12]: And we do thank everyone who supported us.
[00:37.910 --> 00:41.330]  [SPEAKER_12]: Next week, we're going to have Hal Glatzner join us.
[00:41.330 --> 00:46.110]  [SPEAKER_19]: Hal Glatzner is going to talk to us about mass storage, particularly optical storage.
[00:46.130 --> 00:49.450]  [SPEAKER_19]: He's the editor of Optical Storage Newsletter.
[00:50.010 --> 00:52.210]  [SPEAKER_19]: And optical storage is something that's...
[00:52.210 --> 00:54.310]  [SPEAKER_03]: There are seven phones busy now.
[00:54.310 --> 00:55.070]  [SPEAKER_03]: That's wonderful.
[00:55.270 --> 00:56.470]  [SPEAKER_03]: We haven't had that so far.
[00:56.790 --> 00:57.710]  [SPEAKER_03]: They'll keep coming in.
[00:57.710 --> 01:01.310]  [SPEAKER_03]: We've got actually nine volunteers taking all these calls.
[01:01.470 --> 01:02.230]  [SPEAKER_03]: Keep trying.
[01:02.650 --> 01:06.150]  [SPEAKER_03]: The premiums are either going to go in the next few minutes or they're not gone.
[01:06.150 --> 01:06.430]  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[01:06.530 --> 01:08.930]  [SPEAKER_19]: If you're on the phone, we will take the call.
[01:09.190 --> 01:13.210]  [SPEAKER_19]: If you're not on the phone, then you'll have to wait until next year, I'm afraid.
[01:14.330 --> 01:15.050]  [SPEAKER_19]: 279-3400.
[01:15.230 --> 01:15.850]  [SPEAKER_19]: We're off the air.
[01:16.010 --> 01:17.730]  [SPEAKER_19]: We're about to be followed by On the Hook.
[01:17.830 --> 01:19.910]  [SPEAKER_19]: I thank you very much for your generosity.
[01:20.430 --> 01:22.070]  [SPEAKER_19]: Off the hook, not on the hook.
[01:22.290 --> 01:23.630]  [SPEAKER_19]: I thank you for your generosity.
[01:23.630 --> 01:24.850]  [SPEAKER_19]: I thank you for your help.
[01:24.850 --> 01:30.950]  [SPEAKER_19]: I thank you for thinking about and doing something about all the people out there who need your help even more than we do.
[01:41.670 --> 01:46.930]  [SPEAKER_21]: Hi, I'm Greg Thomas, co-producer of WBAI's Thursday afternoon edition of Talk Back.
[01:47.150 --> 01:57.050]  [SPEAKER_21]: This Thursday, after Talk Back with Playthel Benjamin and the Evening News, Playthel Benjamin will present a five-hour special entitled The Afrocentricity Controversy.
[01:57.050 --> 01:59.550]  [SPEAKER_21]: Today, we're working on the best lineup possible.
[01:59.870 --> 02:15.130]  [SPEAKER_21]: A sample of the invited participants include Henry Louis Gates, Malefe Asante, Kwame Anthony Apaya, Ma'alana Karanga, Cornel West, John Hendrick Clark, Bell Hooks, Stanley Crouch, Linda James Myers, and Dinesh D'Souza.
[02:15.470 --> 02:18.990]  [SPEAKER_21]: Don't miss what promises to be an historic radio event.
[02:18.990 --> 02:22.570]  [SPEAKER_21]: So tune in Thursday, May 27th from 7 p.m.
[02:22.610 --> 02:29.430]  [SPEAKER_21]: to 12 midnight for The Afrocentricity Controversy right here at 99.5 FM WBAI.
[02:33.890 --> 02:37.410]  [SPEAKER_02]: As we walked out into the courtyard, a man fell dead.
[02:38.170 --> 02:43.270]  [SPEAKER_02]: The two others, they must have been over 60, were crawling towards the latrine.
[02:44.150 --> 02:47.030]  [SPEAKER_02]: I saw it, but will not describe it.
[02:47.850 --> 02:51.330]  [SPEAKER_02]: In another part of the camp, they showed me the children, hundreds of them.
[02:51.690 --> 02:52.830]  [SPEAKER_02]: Some were only six.
[02:53.890 --> 02:56.650]  [SPEAKER_02]: One rolled up his sleeve, showed me his number.
[02:56.990 --> 02:58.850]  [SPEAKER_02]: It was tattooed on his arm.
[02:59.550 --> 03:02.270]  [SPEAKER_02]: D, 6,030 it was.
[03:02.650 --> 03:04.150]  [SPEAKER_02]: The others showed me their numbers.
[03:04.790 --> 03:06.670]  [SPEAKER_02]: They will carry them till they die.
[03:07.490 --> 03:12.410]  [SPEAKER_02]: An elderly man standing beside me said, The children, enemies of the state.
[03:12.810 --> 03:14.690]  [SPEAKER_24]: Friday, May 28th, 8 p.m.
[03:14.750 --> 03:15.130]  [SPEAKER_24]: to midnight.
[03:15.390 --> 03:22.330]  [SPEAKER_24]: Join us for a WBAI weaponry special on the controversy surrounding the PBS film Liberators, fighting on two fronts in World War II.
[03:22.590 --> 03:29.650]  [SPEAKER_24]: Among the topics to be explored will be neo-Nazism, Holocaust denial, and Nazi policy towards Africa and Africans.
[03:29.930 --> 03:31.910]  [SPEAKER_24]: Friday, May 28th, 8 p.m.
[03:31.970 --> 03:36.390]  [SPEAKER_24]: to midnight, only on WBAI Pacifica Radio in New York.
[03:37.850 --> 03:42.050]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's what this is, and the program coming up right now is Off the Hook.
[03:48.580 --> 03:52.980]  [SPEAKER_23]: The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
[03:53.980 --> 03:58.480]  [SPEAKER_23]: I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a cough.
[03:59.280 --> 04:03.720]  [SPEAKER_23]: It couldn't get much worse, but if they could, they would.
[04:03.980 --> 04:06.600]  [SPEAKER_15]: Bum, dilly, bum, but the best, expect the worst.
[04:07.260 --> 04:10.140]  [SPEAKER_15]: I hope that's understood, but make me move.
[04:38.630 --> 04:40.370]  [SPEAKER_25]: And a good evening to one and all.
[04:40.490 --> 04:41.530]  [SPEAKER_25]: This is Emmanuel Goldstein.
[04:41.530 --> 04:42.710]  [SPEAKER_25]: The program is Off the Hook.
[04:42.870 --> 04:48.790]  [SPEAKER_25]: We're with you for an hour on this, our last marathon night of this particular marathon.
[04:49.110 --> 04:55.350]  [SPEAKER_25]: Here at WBAI, we hope that we get lots of support from our listeners in this one last chance.
[04:56.250 --> 05:02.090]  [SPEAKER_25]: We have a couple of interesting and at least one shocking development to report to you tonight.
[05:02.090 --> 05:03.250]  [SPEAKER_25]: I hate that word, shocking.
[05:03.350 --> 05:08.490]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's so daily news-ish, but that's just the way it works here in the media business.
[05:09.210 --> 05:12.770]  [SPEAKER_25]: We have different things to reveal.
[05:12.770 --> 05:21.130]  [SPEAKER_25]: One of them is something new that just happened, a new service that is just being offered.
[05:21.230 --> 05:32.930]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now, a lot of us are in the habit of making collect calls occasionally, and what we're going to do right now is show you how collect calls can be made.
[05:33.150 --> 05:33.550]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay?
[05:33.710 --> 05:39.250]  [SPEAKER_25]: Usually, you pick up your phone and you dial some digits.
[05:39.250 --> 05:44.150]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now, we're going to call ourselves collect and see what happens.
[05:44.170 --> 05:56.010]  [SPEAKER_25]: We're going to put O before the telephone number, which is 212-279-3400, and see what happens.
[06:00.500 --> 06:02.200]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's ringing, but it's not ringing here.
[06:04.580 --> 06:05.460]  [SPEAKER_09]: I'm sorry.
[06:05.700 --> 06:07.560]  [SPEAKER_09]: We are unable to complete your call.
[06:07.760 --> 06:15.160]  [SPEAKER_09]: If you are making a call in the 212 area, please try again without using the 212 or ask your operator for assistance.
[06:16.600 --> 06:18.420]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now, I am making a call...
[06:18.420 --> 06:20.200]  [SPEAKER_09]: We are unable to complete your call.
[06:20.200 --> 06:21.620]  [SPEAKER_25]: All right, all right, all right.
[06:21.780 --> 06:26.040]  [SPEAKER_25]: I am making a call in the 212 area, and I did leave off the 212.
[06:26.860 --> 06:29.040]  [SPEAKER_25]: So, well, Fiberoptic, you're here.
[06:29.140 --> 06:30.120]  [SPEAKER_25]: Why did we get that recording?
[06:30.520 --> 06:31.200]  [SPEAKER_25]: I don't know.
[06:31.300 --> 06:32.160]  [SPEAKER_25]: I thought you dialed wrong.
[06:32.320 --> 06:33.580]  [SPEAKER_25]: I didn't dial wrong.
[06:33.660 --> 06:46.780]  [SPEAKER_25]: I dialed zero plus our phone number, which is 279-3400, and I got the scolding from this voice that sounded like a Laurie Anderson type of creation saying that I had dialed wrong.
[06:46.780 --> 06:49.780]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, the only thing we could do is apply inverse logic and put the area code.
[06:49.920 --> 06:50.900]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, you think we should do that?
[06:50.960 --> 06:51.840]  [SPEAKER_25]: Put the area code first.
[06:52.280 --> 06:57.080]  [SPEAKER_25]: So, dial zero plus 212-279-3400.
[06:57.160 --> 06:58.720]  [SPEAKER_25]: This is to make our collect call, okay?
[07:01.080 --> 07:06.220]  [SPEAKER_25]: Zero, 212-279-3400.
[07:07.180 --> 07:08.920]  [SPEAKER_25]: All right, it's possible that logic might work.
[07:09.040 --> 07:10.420]  [SPEAKER_25]: Let's see if it really does.
[07:11.700 --> 07:12.760]  [SPEAKER_14]: New York Telephone.
[07:12.840 --> 07:13.280]  [SPEAKER_25]: There you go.
[07:18.150 --> 07:18.510]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yes?
[07:19.450 --> 07:23.210]  [SPEAKER_18]: From a push-button telephone, press 1-1 for collect calls.
[07:23.470 --> 07:27.170]  [SPEAKER_18]: To charge this call to another number, enter the complete number now.
[07:27.470 --> 07:31.090]  [SPEAKER_18]: For person-to-person and other calls, press 0 for the operator.
[07:31.330 --> 07:32.390]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, we're going to press 1-1.
[07:32.410 --> 07:34.850]  [SPEAKER_18]: File telephone, flash the switch hook for the operator.
[07:35.250 --> 07:35.890]  [SPEAKER_25]: 1-1.
[07:35.970 --> 07:36.270]  [SPEAKER_25]: Here we go.
[07:37.930 --> 07:39.650]  [SPEAKER_18]: Your call could not be completed.
[07:40.050 --> 07:42.250]  [SPEAKER_18]: Please hang up and try your call later.
[07:43.410 --> 07:49.110]  [SPEAKER_25]: Actually, you know, that's a very stupid thing to tell us because the reason the call couldn't go through is because we don't accept collect calls.
[07:49.110 --> 07:52.190]  [SPEAKER_25]: We have a block on collect calls, and it should say that.
[07:52.290 --> 07:59.670]  [SPEAKER_25]: If I keep trying later, I'm going to think that maybe I can get through, and it's going to be a big waste of time for me and the phone company and everybody else.
[08:00.010 --> 08:07.010]  [SPEAKER_25]: So we're not going to try later, but it used to say at the customer's request, collect calls are not accepted on this line.
[08:07.090 --> 08:08.030]  [SPEAKER_25]: I don't know why they changed that.
[08:08.970 --> 08:13.770]  [SPEAKER_25]: Let's find out if collect calls cost a whole lot extra.
[08:13.770 --> 08:17.570]  [SPEAKER_25]: We're going to dial the operator here.
[08:18.010 --> 08:18.810]  [SPEAKER_25]: Hold on one moment.
[08:18.870 --> 08:21.130]  [SPEAKER_25]: I think I dialed the wrong thing.
[08:21.410 --> 08:21.630]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay.
[08:22.330 --> 08:23.970]  [SPEAKER_25]: I hung up by accident, all right?
[08:24.330 --> 08:25.170]  [SPEAKER_25]: Let's try this again.
[08:28.190 --> 08:28.590]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay.
[08:28.590 --> 08:32.950]  [SPEAKER_25]: We're going to be demonstrating a brand new service.
[08:33.130 --> 08:33.950]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's why we're doing this.
[08:33.950 --> 08:34.870]  [SPEAKER_25]: This is the old service.
[08:35.190 --> 08:44.830]  [SPEAKER_25]: It used to be back in the old days that you would actually get an operator, and the operator would converse with you in the language of your choice, and you would get...
[08:44.830 --> 08:45.390]  [SPEAKER_25]: Here we go.
[08:45.730 --> 08:46.750]  [SPEAKER_25]: Let's get our dial tone back.
[08:48.810 --> 08:49.830]  [SPEAKER_25]: We have a dial tone.
[08:50.550 --> 08:53.670]  [SPEAKER_25]: Let us now get an operator.
[08:54.650 --> 08:56.730]  [SPEAKER_25]: This is all coming to you live on the radio.
[08:59.330 --> 09:00.590]  [SPEAKER_13]: New York Telephone.
[09:02.250 --> 09:03.490]  [SPEAKER_13]: Miss Evans, may I help you?
[09:03.490 --> 09:04.270]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yes, hi.
[09:04.330 --> 09:06.650]  [SPEAKER_25]: I was wondering if you could tell me what a collect call would cost.
[09:07.310 --> 09:08.190]  [SPEAKER_25]: This is from the...
[09:08.190 --> 09:09.470]  [SPEAKER_13]: Depending upon where you're calling to.
[09:09.550 --> 09:10.810]  [SPEAKER_13]: What area code number are you calling?
[09:10.950 --> 09:15.950]  [SPEAKER_25]: I'm calling to this same exchange, the 279 exchange and the 212 area code.
[09:33.520 --> 09:34.520]  [SPEAKER_13]: Hold on a moment, too.
[09:35.060 --> 09:35.500]  [SPEAKER_25]: Certainly.
[09:41.360 --> 09:41.840]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay.
[09:42.120 --> 09:42.520]  [SPEAKER_13]: Let's see.
[09:42.600 --> 09:44.260]  [SPEAKER_13]: Now I'm calling up with...
[09:44.740 --> 09:45.220]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay.
[09:46.080 --> 09:48.020]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's after 9 o'clock, okay.
[09:48.320 --> 09:49.660]  [SPEAKER_13]: So it's after 9.
[09:50.800 --> 09:54.260]  [SPEAKER_13]: That collect call would cost you station...
[09:54.260 --> 09:58.640]  [SPEAKER_13]: The station approximately about $1.59 plus tax.
[09:59.180 --> 10:00.440]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's for how long?
[10:00.840 --> 10:01.040]  [SPEAKER_25]: Hmm?
[10:01.280 --> 10:02.820]  [SPEAKER_25]: How long is that for, $1.59?
[10:03.280 --> 10:04.160]  [SPEAKER_13]: That's a...
[10:04.160 --> 10:05.540]  [SPEAKER_13]: Excuse me, sorry.
[10:06.160 --> 10:07.060]  [SPEAKER_13]: I'm losing my voice.
[10:08.120 --> 10:09.060]  [SPEAKER_13]: I'm sorry.
[10:09.280 --> 10:09.440]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay.
[10:09.460 --> 10:09.860]  [SPEAKER_13]: That's...
[10:09.860 --> 10:10.980]  [SPEAKER_13]: There's no overtime, sir.
[10:11.400 --> 10:12.500]  [SPEAKER_13]: Because it's a local call.
[10:12.500 --> 10:15.700]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, so $1.59, I can stay on for 12 hours if I wanted to.
[10:15.820 --> 10:17.000]  [SPEAKER_13]: 12 hours, 24 hours.
[10:17.660 --> 10:18.020]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay.
[10:19.280 --> 10:20.000]  [SPEAKER_25]: And, um...
[10:20.000 --> 10:21.640]  [SPEAKER_25]: All right, so that's for the local area, right?
[10:21.680 --> 10:21.860]  [SPEAKER_25]: Right.
[10:22.300 --> 10:26.840]  [SPEAKER_25]: And is it $1.59 for anywhere in the area that would have a toll applied to it afterwards?
[10:27.640 --> 10:31.540]  [SPEAKER_25]: For instance, if I called, say, to 516 area code.
[10:31.740 --> 10:33.440]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, 516, now that would be different.
[10:33.700 --> 10:33.880]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah.
[10:34.120 --> 10:35.700]  [SPEAKER_25]: Could you tell me, say, 516...
[10:35.700 --> 10:38.920]  [SPEAKER_13]: I need the whole number, because I have the key in the computer so it can give me a rate.
[10:39.160 --> 10:41.160]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, 751-2600.
[10:41.160 --> 10:45.040]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay, I'll go one moment.
[10:45.080 --> 10:45.380]  [SPEAKER_25]: Thank you.
[10:50.260 --> 10:50.780]  Okay.
[10:52.520 --> 10:53.280]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay.
[10:55.740 --> 10:56.500]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay.
[10:59.020 --> 11:01.820]  [SPEAKER_13]: Collect from 9 p.m.
[11:01.860 --> 11:03.060]  [SPEAKER_13]: until 11 p.m.
[11:03.180 --> 11:03.580]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay.
[11:03.860 --> 11:05.140]  [SPEAKER_13]: Now, that would be...
[11:05.140 --> 11:13.400]  [SPEAKER_13]: The initial period would be roughly $1.69 for the first minute and approximately $0.06.
[11:14.460 --> 11:15.520]  [SPEAKER_13]: each additional minute.
[11:16.040 --> 11:16.820]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, great.
[11:17.360 --> 11:18.440]  [SPEAKER_25]: Thank you very much for your help.
[11:18.540 --> 11:19.200]  [SPEAKER_13]: You're welcome, sir.
[11:19.340 --> 11:19.540]  [SPEAKER_25]: Bye-bye.
[11:19.660 --> 11:20.020]  [SPEAKER_13]: Bye-bye.
[11:21.300 --> 11:22.020]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, that's...
[11:22.020 --> 11:23.260]  [SPEAKER_25]: That was very helpful.
[11:23.460 --> 11:25.440]  [SPEAKER_25]: We learned how much a collect call costs.
[11:25.560 --> 11:27.880]  [SPEAKER_25]: I bet a lot of you didn't know that, how much collect calls cost.
[11:28.080 --> 11:28.960]  [SPEAKER_25]: I didn't really know that.
[11:29.000 --> 11:30.860]  [SPEAKER_25]: I don't think I can remember the last time I made a collect call.
[11:31.860 --> 11:34.480]  [SPEAKER_25]: This is educational for a couple of different reasons.
[11:35.040 --> 11:38.220]  [SPEAKER_25]: A, we realize that it's incredibly expensive to make a collect call locally.
[11:38.360 --> 11:42.980]  [SPEAKER_25]: God knows how much it would cost to make a collect call to the other side of the country.
[11:43.680 --> 11:46.120]  [SPEAKER_25]: But now we have a basis for comparison.
[11:46.420 --> 11:52.960]  [SPEAKER_25]: And we're going to use this new service, which you may have seen advertised on television in the last week or in newspapers.
[11:53.520 --> 11:56.420]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's called 1-800-COLLECT.
[11:57.360 --> 12:02.660]  [SPEAKER_25]: And we're going to call that up and see what they charge and how it works.
[12:03.240 --> 12:04.480]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now, I've never called this before.
[12:04.480 --> 12:05.560]  [SPEAKER_25]: I have no idea what's going to happen.
[12:05.680 --> 12:08.440]  [SPEAKER_25]: So let's experience this together.
[12:09.080 --> 12:15.060]  [SPEAKER_25]: 1-800-COLLECT.
[12:16.580 --> 12:21.760]  [SPEAKER_25]: Let's see if it's worthwhile or just another shady rip-off scheme.
[12:23.020 --> 12:24.160]  [SPEAKER_05]: 1-800-COLLECT.
[12:24.380 --> 12:26.040]  [SPEAKER_05]: May I have the area code and number you're calling, please?
[12:26.200 --> 12:29.140]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yes, I was wondering if you could tell me how much this will cost the person.
[12:29.360 --> 12:29.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, sure.
[12:29.640 --> 12:32.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: For right information, sir, I can transfer you to customer service if you'd like to hold the line.
[12:33.560 --> 12:33.920]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay.
[12:34.180 --> 12:34.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: One moment, please.
[12:34.860 --> 12:35.140]  [SPEAKER_05]: Thank you.
[12:35.580 --> 12:37.460]  [SPEAKER_05]: Please hold for operator assistance.
[12:38.400 --> 12:39.480]  [SPEAKER_25]: Oh, that sounds interesting.
[12:43.150 --> 12:44.530]  [SPEAKER_11]: MCI customer services, Todd.
[12:44.710 --> 12:45.070]  [SPEAKER_11]: May I help you?
[12:45.090 --> 12:48.470]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yes, I was wondering how much I collect call cost on this service.
[12:49.030 --> 12:51.970]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay, it depends on where you're calling to and at what time of day.
[12:52.170 --> 12:53.550]  [SPEAKER_25]: Does it matter where I'm calling from?
[12:54.330 --> 12:54.930]  [SPEAKER_11]: No, huh?
[12:55.170 --> 12:56.390]  [SPEAKER_25]: Oh, it doesn't matter where I'm calling from.
[12:56.470 --> 12:57.370]  [SPEAKER_25]: It only matters where I'm calling to?
[12:57.750 --> 12:58.110]  [SPEAKER_11]: Right.
[12:58.270 --> 12:58.470]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay.
[12:58.510 --> 13:00.390]  [SPEAKER_11]: It depends on the mileage and the time of day you call.
[13:00.390 --> 13:05.630]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, well, I'm calling to Manhattan, 212-279-3400.
[13:07.190 --> 13:08.890]  [SPEAKER_11]: And calling from the phone you're on now?
[13:09.030 --> 13:09.370]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yes.
[13:09.570 --> 13:10.470]  [SPEAKER_11]: I'll check for a moment.
[13:10.610 --> 13:10.910]  [SPEAKER_25]: Thank you.
[13:14.660 --> 13:15.880]  [SPEAKER_11]: Placing the call at this time?
[13:16.140 --> 13:16.500]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yes.
[13:25.270 --> 13:26.470]  [SPEAKER_25]: Is this a local call?
[13:27.510 --> 13:28.750]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's kind of local, yeah.
[13:31.090 --> 13:31.910]  [SPEAKER_10]: For a moment.
[13:41.230 --> 13:45.890]  [SPEAKER_11]: If you place it now, it's $1.61 the first minute and 11 cents each additional minute.
[13:46.610 --> 13:48.110]  [SPEAKER_25]: 11 cents each additional minute.
[13:48.250 --> 13:48.550]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay.
[13:49.610 --> 13:51.950]  [SPEAKER_25]: All right, is it possible to get switched back to the other operator?
[13:52.530 --> 13:54.050]  [SPEAKER_11]: I can place the call if you'd like.
[13:54.310 --> 13:55.950]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, I'd like to try a collect call.
[13:56.790 --> 13:57.950]  [SPEAKER_11]: Can you give me the number again?
[13:58.150 --> 14:01.030]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah, it's 212-279-3400.
[14:04.250 --> 14:04.970]  [SPEAKER_11]: One moment.
[14:05.130 --> 14:05.450]  [SPEAKER_25]: Thank you.
[14:09.400 --> 14:10.360]  [SPEAKER_11]: I'm having some trouble.
[14:10.420 --> 14:12.140]  [SPEAKER_11]: Let me get you an operator that can place the call.
[14:12.220 --> 14:13.100]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, thank you very much.
[14:13.220 --> 14:13.500]  [SPEAKER_11]: You're welcome.
[14:19.310 --> 14:20.950]  [SPEAKER_25]: Having a little bit of trouble there.
[14:22.970 --> 14:24.870]  [SPEAKER_04]: Please hold for operator assistance.
[14:25.810 --> 14:28.390]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's twice we've been through that little recording.
[14:37.780 --> 14:39.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: MCI Customer Service, this is Hiram.
[14:39.710 --> 14:40.330]  [SPEAKER_06]: How can I help you?
[14:41.080 --> 14:41.760]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yes, hi.
[14:41.920 --> 14:44.040]  [SPEAKER_25]: I'm trying to make a collect call, please.
[14:44.860 --> 14:46.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: This is on the 1-800-COLLECT?
[14:47.020 --> 14:48.180]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yes, that's what I dialed.
[14:48.820 --> 14:50.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: And you're trying to place a collect call?
[14:50.710 --> 14:51.560]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yes, that's correct.
[14:52.640 --> 14:53.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, what number were you calling?
[14:54.140 --> 14:57.200]  [SPEAKER_25]: I'm calling to 212-279-3400.
[14:59.600 --> 15:01.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212-279-3400?
[15:01.280 --> 15:01.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's right.
[15:09.620 --> 15:12.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, it seems that number does not accept collect calls, sir.
[15:12.600 --> 15:12.980]  [SPEAKER_25]: Oh, really?
[15:13.060 --> 15:13.500]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's blocked.
[15:14.000 --> 15:16.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, that's what I'm showing that it is blocked for collect calls.
[15:16.880 --> 15:17.420]  [SPEAKER_25]: I see.
[15:17.620 --> 15:19.540]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, so I guess there's no way I can make this call then.
[15:20.020 --> 15:21.260]  [SPEAKER_25]: All right, I'll send the letter.
[15:21.700 --> 15:24.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: We can try and build another way, but we can't call collect that number.
[15:24.860 --> 15:25.180]  [SPEAKER_25]: All right.
[15:25.320 --> 15:26.840]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, I'll consider my options then.
[15:26.860 --> 15:27.420]  [SPEAKER_25]: Thanks for your help.
[15:27.500 --> 15:29.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: All right, thanks, using 1-800-COLLECT-FEMCI.
[15:29.320 --> 15:29.640]  [SPEAKER_25]: All right.
[15:30.180 --> 15:31.840]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, that's how it works.
[15:32.000 --> 15:32.660]  [SPEAKER_25]: I'm surprised.
[15:32.840 --> 15:33.600]  [SPEAKER_25]: No automation.
[15:34.260 --> 15:34.980]  [SPEAKER_25]: Human beings.
[15:35.400 --> 15:36.420]  [SPEAKER_25]: Does that surprise you, fiber?
[15:36.680 --> 15:37.960]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah, that's pretty surprising.
[15:38.000 --> 15:39.440]  [SPEAKER_25]: In this day and age, no human beings.
[15:39.560 --> 15:40.240]  [SPEAKER_25]: We have...
[15:40.240 --> 15:42.080]  [SPEAKER_25]: I mean, no computers.
[15:42.120 --> 15:42.860]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's just human beings.
[15:44.940 --> 15:46.180]  [SPEAKER_25]: They were able to tell.
[15:46.300 --> 15:50.060]  [SPEAKER_25]: They do subscribe to the same database that tells that the number is blocked.
[15:51.440 --> 15:53.300]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, they sure breathe heavy over there, don't they?
[15:53.840 --> 15:54.160]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's...
[15:54.520 --> 16:00.060]  [SPEAKER_25]: There must be some stressful jobs, but I guess it would be good for...
[16:00.400 --> 16:01.320]  [SPEAKER_25]: What would it be good for?
[16:01.380 --> 16:04.520]  [SPEAKER_25]: Why would you want to use that system above dialing Zero Plus?
[16:04.520 --> 16:08.720]  [SPEAKER_22]: To avoid the rip-offs on CoCots, dialing Zero Plus Collect, you pay an arm and a leg.
[16:09.080 --> 16:09.340]  [SPEAKER_22]: Uh-huh.
[16:09.680 --> 16:13.280]  [SPEAKER_22]: If you called 1-800-COLLECT, you can be assured of a fixed Collect call rate.
[16:13.300 --> 16:16.440]  [SPEAKER_25]: But if you dial Zero Plus from a regular payphone, then...
[16:16.440 --> 16:17.980]  [SPEAKER_22]: Then you're probably not saving anything.
[16:19.460 --> 16:19.880]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay.
[16:20.000 --> 16:21.080]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah, that's something to think about.
[16:21.580 --> 16:24.720]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, so that's a new service just introduced this week, 1-800-COLLECT.
[16:24.880 --> 16:28.320]  [SPEAKER_25]: If you make Collect calls, something to be aware of.
[16:29.340 --> 16:33.700]  [SPEAKER_25]: And something else to be aware of is that we have a fundraiser going on here at WBAI.
[16:34.200 --> 16:46.400]  [SPEAKER_25]: This is Off the Hook, and we're offering a special deal for those people that are into this kind of thing where you want to learn about the newest 800 numbers and the newest Hacker News and Big Brother Orwellian kind of thing.
[16:46.860 --> 16:50.320]  [SPEAKER_25]: Give us a call at 212-279-3400 and pledge...
[16:50.320 --> 17:10.800]  [SPEAKER_25]: For a $75 pledge, that is, you'll be able to get a full year of 2600 magazine and a 2600 Hacker t-shirt to two things that we will send out to anybody that pledges $75 at 212-279-3400 and it'll also allow us to continue to bring you little tidbits like that.
[17:10.960 --> 17:11.740]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's just one.
[17:11.860 --> 17:19.940]  [SPEAKER_25]: One in a series of many things that we have and we have something on a much more serious nature coming up in just a couple of minutes.
[17:20.060 --> 17:29.460]  [SPEAKER_25]: But let's get some phone calls coming in 212-279-3400 and we'll be right back with our special guests here on Off the Hook.
[19:59.240 --> 20:09.360]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, speaking of New York Telephone and all kinds of telephone-related hassles, I've just about reached a breaking point with them concerning...
[20:09.360 --> 20:11.400]  [SPEAKER_25]: I've been complaining about this now for weeks, haven't I?
[20:11.560 --> 20:16.520]  [SPEAKER_25]: About getting the aforementioned collect call block placed on the line.
[20:16.700 --> 20:20.800]  [SPEAKER_25]: You know, I've been asking for this for now a couple of months and they still have not done it.
[20:20.880 --> 20:24.460]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, this week, this week I called the Public Service Commission.
[20:26.120 --> 20:28.860]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's about the scariest thing you can do in the eyes of the phone company.
[20:29.000 --> 20:36.400]  [SPEAKER_25]: Once you do that, you get calls, you know, in the morning, you get calls in the evening, you get calls from the phone company saying, you know, why'd you do that to us?
[20:37.220 --> 20:44.940]  [SPEAKER_25]: They still haven't figured out how to put a collect block on the line that I want to collect block on, but at least now they're running scared.
[20:46.300 --> 20:53.020]  [SPEAKER_25]: It doesn't make me feel a whole lot better, but you get the feeling something's being done someplace, some hallowed hall somewhere.
[20:53.640 --> 20:55.040]  [SPEAKER_25]: All right, we mean what we say.
[20:55.140 --> 20:57.680]  [SPEAKER_25]: We need phone calls at 212-279-3400.
[20:58.580 --> 21:05.300]  [SPEAKER_25]: And once you hear the story that we're about to tell you, you might understand why it's important that you give us a call.
[21:05.460 --> 21:08.300]  [SPEAKER_25]: 212-279-3400 pledge, what you can afford.
[21:08.640 --> 21:14.500]  [SPEAKER_25]: And for $75 pledges, you will get a 2600 t-shirt and a 2600 subscription.
[21:16.740 --> 21:21.060]  [SPEAKER_25]: And this story first came to my attention only a few days ago.
[21:21.580 --> 21:36.620]  [SPEAKER_25]: You know, when you live in a world where things like the Steve Jackson case and the Craig Neidorf case happened in the hacker world, you kind of become immune to the idiocy that is out there.
[21:36.620 --> 21:42.040]  [SPEAKER_25]: You know, the ignorance involving computer systems and telephone systems.
[21:42.220 --> 21:47.260]  [SPEAKER_25]: So when something new happens, you almost just accept it.
[21:47.400 --> 21:48.460]  [SPEAKER_25]: And there's a big danger in that.
[21:48.540 --> 21:49.540]  [SPEAKER_25]: You can't allow that to happen.
[21:49.560 --> 21:51.560]  [SPEAKER_25]: You can't allow yourself to just become complacent.
[21:51.700 --> 21:54.920]  [SPEAKER_25]: You have to become outraged when something new happens.
[21:55.120 --> 21:56.700]  [SPEAKER_25]: And this is certainly something new.
[21:56.880 --> 21:58.680]  [SPEAKER_25]: This comes out of Houston, Texas.
[21:59.360 --> 22:03.000]  [SPEAKER_25]: And we have the people involved in the case with us here tonight.
[22:03.660 --> 22:06.360]  [SPEAKER_25]: Let me first give you a brief rundown.
[22:06.980 --> 22:19.540]  [SPEAKER_25]: This concerns a student at the University of Houston who had taken a computer course and had gotten an account that was attached to the course.
[22:20.580 --> 22:23.760]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, later he dropped the course and his account was cancelled.
[22:24.780 --> 22:32.240]  [SPEAKER_25]: So when he went to find out why his account was cancelled, they said, okay, you can clear out your account.
[22:32.380 --> 22:33.520]  [SPEAKER_25]: We'll give you two hours to do that.
[22:34.680 --> 22:39.540]  [SPEAKER_25]: At that point, the person decided to print out what is known as the password file.
[22:39.680 --> 22:44.560]  [SPEAKER_25]: However, before we jump to any conclusions, this is not a password file.
[22:44.680 --> 22:47.300]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's called a password file but it doesn't have any passwords in it.
[22:47.420 --> 22:49.480]  [SPEAKER_25]: It doesn't even have any encrypted passwords in it.
[22:49.940 --> 22:52.320]  [SPEAKER_25]: It just has a list of the users on the system.
[22:52.660 --> 22:57.860]  [SPEAKER_25]: They use what is known as shadow passwording which means the passwords are actually stored someplace else in encrypted form.
[22:58.160 --> 23:02.500]  [SPEAKER_25]: But what this person decided to do is simply print out A list of whoever else was on the system.
[23:02.760 --> 23:05.980]  [SPEAKER_25]: For whatever reasons, and that information is there, it's publicly available.
[23:08.220 --> 23:18.640]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, would you be shocked if I told you that because of that action, because of the fact that he went and printed out a publicly accessible file, he's been kicked out of school for a year?
[23:20.160 --> 23:21.740]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's the facts as we know them.
[23:21.820 --> 23:26.920]  [SPEAKER_25]: We have on the line with us James Henderson of the University of Houston.
[23:27.060 --> 23:27.520]  [SPEAKER_25]: James, are you there?
[23:27.760 --> 23:27.940]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yes.
[23:28.380 --> 23:30.300]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, and this really happened to you, did it?
[23:30.560 --> 23:31.380]  [SPEAKER_16]: I guess it did.
[23:32.820 --> 23:37.200]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now, perhaps you could just describe in your own words what happened on that day.
[23:37.200 --> 23:43.220]  [SPEAKER_25]: You had a computer account on a UNIX system, and you had dropped the course which had allowed you to get it.
[23:44.120 --> 23:45.840]  [SPEAKER_25]: And what happened from that point on?
[23:46.280 --> 23:49.980]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, basically, I dropped the course two days after school started.
[23:51.120 --> 23:54.500]  [SPEAKER_07]: So I had the account actually longer after I dropped the course.
[23:54.660 --> 24:03.440]  [SPEAKER_07]: They failed to find out until later when I posted a message on the news net, publicly readable.
[24:03.740 --> 24:06.760]  [SPEAKER_07]: They found out that I was posting from my class account.
[24:06.980 --> 24:10.720]  [SPEAKER_07]: So they then went and found out I had dropped the course and shut the account off.
[24:11.740 --> 24:20.240]  [SPEAKER_07]: I called that day about 3 o'clock and asked them if I could at least, you know, have a warning beforehand so I can clear out my stuff.
[24:20.240 --> 24:24.200]  [SPEAKER_07]: But they said, well, we'll give you two hours right now to clear out your stuff.
[24:24.780 --> 24:30.380]  [SPEAKER_07]: So I logged in and I cleared out my stuff that I needed.
[24:32.420 --> 24:37.080]  [SPEAKER_07]: And the university doesn't allow general student accounts for UNIX.
[24:37.200 --> 24:38.540]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's only class-related.
[24:38.540 --> 24:58.460]  [SPEAKER_07]: So I was thinking that if I had a list of the users and I could find out who is given privileges without having a class, like, you know, special kids that are given special treatment for, you know, giving a general UNIX account.
[24:58.660 --> 25:01.960]  [SPEAKER_07]: So I printed out the file, which is called password.
[25:02.180 --> 25:03.900]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's spelled P-A-S-S-W-D.
[25:05.560 --> 25:06.840]  [SPEAKER_07]: And it's only a user list.
[25:06.980 --> 25:11.860]  [SPEAKER_07]: As you said, there's no encrypted passwords, no password, anything that leads to passwords.
[25:13.380 --> 25:29.540]  [SPEAKER_07]: And I printed this out with the thought in mind that I was going to set up a petition to the administrators at the computer science department and ask them to let people, you know, have general UNIX accounts.
[25:30.880 --> 25:39.960]  [SPEAKER_07]: But they had in mind that I was going to do something malicious with this list, like brute force hack or whatever.
[25:40.460 --> 25:44.640]  [SPEAKER_07]: But they, I found this out.
[25:44.780 --> 25:46.300]  [SPEAKER_07]: They shut down another account.
[25:46.480 --> 25:53.680]  [SPEAKER_07]: And I called in and they said that they had confiscated the printout of the password.
[25:54.020 --> 25:56.720]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's actually a user list, not a password file.
[25:56.720 --> 26:00.660]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's called password file for historical reasons of the operating system.
[26:01.640 --> 26:03.360]  [SPEAKER_07]: And that's basically what happened.
[26:04.480 --> 26:09.880]  [SPEAKER_07]: I went before the dean of students and now it's mended.
[26:10.320 --> 26:13.760]  [SPEAKER_07]: There's a lot that went on between with the dean of students, which is a big case.
[26:16.260 --> 26:22.260]  [SPEAKER_07]: Basically, the ignorance of the administrators, not knowing that there's no passwords in there.
[26:22.260 --> 26:26.480]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, it's ignorance and prejudice.
[26:26.720 --> 26:28.140]  [SPEAKER_07]: There's another story to this.
[26:29.460 --> 26:31.980]  [SPEAKER_07]: And mainly ignorance on the dean of students' part.
[26:32.200 --> 26:32.900]  [SPEAKER_25]: I see.
[26:33.900 --> 26:40.200]  [SPEAKER_25]: I'd like to read, before we get more into this, a little bit from a memo that they sent out.
[26:41.000 --> 26:45.540]  [SPEAKER_25]: They being the University of Houston support services, the people that run the computer system.
[26:45.900 --> 26:51.300]  [SPEAKER_25]: Support services has found that Mr. Henderson acquired a, it says, a Minuto account.
[26:51.300 --> 26:52.600]  [SPEAKER_25]: What's a Minuto account?
[26:52.760 --> 26:56.240]  [SPEAKER_07]: That is the node name, the site name for the UNIX.
[26:56.860 --> 26:56.980]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay.
[26:57.040 --> 26:59.900]  [SPEAKER_25]: Let me give you your account number from a class that you had dropped.
[27:00.480 --> 27:07.700]  [SPEAKER_25]: Based on the policy that all accounts assigned to a class are to be used for class work, we disabled the account on April 21st.
[27:07.780 --> 27:11.280]  [SPEAKER_25]: Mr. Henderson called me today, April 22nd, at approximately 3.30 p.m.
[27:11.280 --> 27:13.800]  [SPEAKER_25]: to find out what had happened to his account.
[27:14.300 --> 27:15.500]  [SPEAKER_25]: I informed him of our policy.
[27:15.500 --> 27:18.840]  [SPEAKER_25]: He asked if he could back up the files from his Minuto account.
[27:18.840 --> 27:21.460]  [SPEAKER_25]: I agreed to give him two hours to retrieve his files.
[27:21.700 --> 27:27.040]  [SPEAKER_25]: During this time, Mr. Henderson copied the password file on Minuto and printed a copy to the central site printer.
[27:27.260 --> 27:29.840]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now, you're claiming you never even copied the file.
[27:29.920 --> 27:30.180]  [SPEAKER_25]: Is that right?
[27:31.280 --> 27:37.240]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's just, I'm not sure if that's important, but I don't know why the man said that I copied it.
[27:37.760 --> 27:41.640]  [SPEAKER_07]: I think that's the Tom Monroe who works for support services.
[27:41.880 --> 27:42.180]  [SPEAKER_25]: Uh-huh.
[27:42.320 --> 27:42.560]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yes.
[27:44.480 --> 27:46.020]  [SPEAKER_07]: I just, I printed it out.
[27:46.180 --> 27:49.440]  [SPEAKER_07]: That's all I did from the, I didn't copy it into my directories.
[27:50.000 --> 27:53.540]  [SPEAKER_07]: The file, the password file is in a world-readable directory.
[27:54.680 --> 27:57.580]  [SPEAKER_07]: Anybody can access it, and therefore I printed it out.
[27:57.700 --> 28:01.040]  [SPEAKER_07]: Why would I need to copy it when it's already readable by me?
[28:01.360 --> 28:01.660]  [SPEAKER_25]: Uh-huh.
[28:02.220 --> 28:03.680]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, I'll continue with this memo.
[28:03.680 --> 28:10.840]  [SPEAKER_25]: One of the operators at central site saw the output being printed and quickly informed support services about the situation.
[28:11.160 --> 28:20.140]  [SPEAKER_25]: Upon finding out about Mr. Henderson's activities, Jerry Raschke disabled his account, and I picked up the evidence from central site, the evidence being the printout.
[28:20.820 --> 28:29.520]  [SPEAKER_25]: Later that evening, Mr. Henderson used his account on the Jetson cluster to harass a user named Daniel Taylor by sending him a large amount of junk mail.
[28:29.520 --> 28:35.020]  [SPEAKER_25]: Daniel notified David Smith at production services instructing Mr. Henderson's, uh, of Mr. Henderson's actions.
[28:35.680 --> 28:40.960]  [SPEAKER_25]: Uh, Daniel then sent mail to Mr. Henderson and support services instructing Mr. Henderson to immediately stop his abusive behavior.
[28:41.260 --> 28:48.240]  [SPEAKER_25]: This is just another example of Mr. Henderson's continued blatant disregard of other users' rights and of the computer usage policy.
[28:48.800 --> 28:58.760]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now, I've, I've come to understand that this, uh, situation involving harassment of another user was some sort of a misunderstanding, and that you've been able to, uh, resolve that issue with that person who's...
[28:58.760 --> 29:07.280]  [SPEAKER_07]: As you can see, they're trying to make an example of me, uh, well, this, this is just another example of, of how they've, uh, become prejudiced against me.
[29:07.440 --> 29:25.920]  [SPEAKER_07]: There's, there's just somebody, uh, there that doesn't like me, uh, because about a year ago, this all started about a year ago, uh, the, uh, uh, uh, the first, the very first thing that, uh, happened was they shut my, well, one of my accounts off, because I was using our login,
[29:26.280 --> 29:45.080]  [SPEAKER_07]: uh, I was online and talking to somebody, and without warning, I was knocked out, and I had called in and, uh, found out that it was one of their, their guy's mistakes, and he apologized to me, but the way I was so fed up, uh, I was kind of bitching them out,
[29:45.200 --> 29:45.500]  [SPEAKER_07]: actually.
[29:45.500 --> 29:59.620]  [SPEAKER_07]: So, uh, they, I got on their bad side, uh, and, uh, that's how somebody, there's somebody in there that doesn't like me, and they've been, it's been, uh, admitted that they've just been trying to get rid of me, uh, for a while now.
[30:00.040 --> 30:00.160]  [SPEAKER_25]: Uh-huh.
[30:00.740 --> 30:01.640]  [SPEAKER_07]: You know, about a year.
[30:01.640 --> 30:06.880]  [SPEAKER_25]: It seems like they've, uh, they've used just about every opportunity they can to, uh, to accomplish that.
[30:07.040 --> 30:23.340]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yes, and that's why the misunderstanding of the harassment was, uh, Daniel Taylor is my friend, one of my best friends, and I was trying to send him some, uh, executables through mail, and one, I was using a batch program, and it, it went, it went haywire,
[30:23.440 --> 30:24.660]  [SPEAKER_07]: and it sent him a few copies.
[30:24.660 --> 30:36.920]  [SPEAKER_07]: And the exe file was like an IBM, uh, program, which is quite big, so it filled up his, uh, disk space, and he, he wasn't sure if the mail server was messed up, or what was going on.
[30:37.620 --> 30:57.940]  [SPEAKER_07]: Um, he, he's not, uh, too smart on the computer system, but, uh, he, uh, he, he says he contacted the production services, a guy named David Smith, and, uh, then the guy, uh, misunderstood, and he thought that, uh, I was harassing somebody, and, you know,
[30:58.000 --> 31:00.100]  [SPEAKER_07]: he immediately jumped to conclusions on me.
[31:01.360 --> 31:04.620]  [SPEAKER_07]: And, that just shows that, you know, they're out there to get me.
[31:05.020 --> 31:11.960]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah, so, uh, your friend has said that, uh, that he, he is not saying that you harassed him, but they're going on record as saying that, that you are.
[31:12.180 --> 31:12.540]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[31:13.020 --> 31:14.000]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, that's, that's incredible.
[31:14.240 --> 31:19.840]  [SPEAKER_25]: Let me read the, the conclusion that they reached, and then we'll, uh, we'll, we'll talk to, um, a couple of other people about this.
[31:20.360 --> 31:22.800]  [SPEAKER_25]: Uh, this comes from the Dean of Students.
[31:22.800 --> 31:32.680]  [SPEAKER_25]: James, after considering the presentation of your case, the referral, the investigation, and the University of Houston student disciplinary policies and procedures, the following conclusion has been reached.
[31:32.740 --> 31:33.760]  [SPEAKER_25]: And, and this is a gem.
[31:34.020 --> 31:35.100]  [SPEAKER_25]: This is a great sentence here.
[31:35.440 --> 31:40.380]  [SPEAKER_25]: You did use the computer account for purposes other than what it is to be used for.
[31:41.200 --> 31:43.700]  [SPEAKER_25]: I guess that's a capital offense in, in Texas.
[31:43.900 --> 31:49.660]  [SPEAKER_25]: But, uh, using the computer account for purposes other than what it is to be used for is, uh, what they're saying you did.
[31:49.660 --> 31:58.380]  [SPEAKER_25]: Uh, thus, you were in violation of the University of Houston's disciplinary code A 3.14, which, uh, that's pretty close to pi, isn't it?
[31:58.420 --> 32:08.280]  [SPEAKER_25]: It defines as unacceptable, uh, unauthorized use or misuse of any computer, computer system, service, program, data, network, cable, television network, or communications network.
[32:08.460 --> 32:11.500]  [SPEAKER_25]: Our records indicate this was your third violation of this code.
[32:11.700 --> 32:16.860]  [SPEAKER_25]: A third violation indicates to me an unwillingness on your part to obey the rules governing conduct.
[32:17.520 --> 32:21.740]  [SPEAKER_25]: Um, now, uh, we can get into that, that history in, uh, in a little bit.
[32:21.980 --> 32:30.780]  [SPEAKER_25]: Um, but basically what they have, uh, hit you with is disciplinary suspension, effective May 17th, 1993, and ending May 17th, 1994.
[32:30.900 --> 32:39.860]  [SPEAKER_25]: You are prohibited from attending the University of Houston and from being present on university property without permission from the Dean of Students Office for the duration of the suspension.
[32:40.760 --> 32:46.980]  [SPEAKER_25]: Also, disciplinary probation, effective March 31st, um, it says 1992 here.
[32:47.100 --> 32:48.200]  [SPEAKER_25]: I imagine that's a misprint.
[32:48.780 --> 32:50.220]  [SPEAKER_25]: It should be 1993, right?
[32:50.740 --> 33:00.360]  [SPEAKER_07]: Um, actually, no, that was, I was on probation, and that is why the, the, the, uh, suspension was, uh, the, the sanction was a suspension.
[33:00.640 --> 33:01.260]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, I see.
[33:01.320 --> 33:03.460]  [SPEAKER_25]: So we can, we can get into that a little bit, uh, later.
[33:03.460 --> 33:16.060]  [SPEAKER_25]: Uh, but effective that date ending on your graduation date from the University of Houston, any student life, uh, policy violation during this period could result in the, uh, uh, consideration of more severe disciplinary actions by the University of Houston.
[33:16.760 --> 33:21.660]  [SPEAKER_25]: Uh, uh, uh, notation of disciplinary probation will be entered on your University of Houston academic record.
[33:22.100 --> 33:24.780]  [SPEAKER_25]: Uh, also, loss of computer account privileges.
[33:24.940 --> 33:32.480]  [SPEAKER_25]: Effective immediately, you are prohibited from obtaining a general student account or an instructional account with the Department of Academic Computer User Services.
[33:32.480 --> 33:39.160]  [SPEAKER_25]: If you choose to return to the University of Houston, you will need to pursue coursework that does not require access to an account.
[33:39.360 --> 33:42.800]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now, I believe, um, your, uh, major is computer science.
[33:42.940 --> 33:43.280]  [SPEAKER_25]: Is that right?
[33:43.600 --> 33:58.960]  [SPEAKER_07]: I took away computer privileges permanently, so after the suspension is over or if they decide on my appeal, which, which, uh, hasn't been decided yet by the main dean, uh, if he approves my appeals to reinstate me, uh, um, even if I do, you know, come back to the university,
[33:58.960 --> 34:03.860]  [SPEAKER_07]: I won't be able to use a computer, any computer resources, so I won't be able to get a computer science degree.
[34:04.500 --> 34:08.840]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, they've actively, uh, prevented me from getting a degree.
[34:09.080 --> 34:14.200]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, it sounds like they've, uh, those people that, that, uh, don't like you really have, uh, gotten the upper hand here.
[34:14.440 --> 34:21.400]  [SPEAKER_25]: We, we have, um, uh, James Henderson's attorney, uh, Steve Ryan, uh, who we can describe as a computer literate attorney.
[34:21.540 --> 34:23.100]  [SPEAKER_25]: I don't know how many of those there are out here.
[34:23.780 --> 34:25.840]  [SPEAKER_25]: Uh, Steve, what do you, what do you think of, uh, this case?
[34:25.840 --> 34:27.340]  [SPEAKER_25]: Just unlike anything you've ever seen?
[34:27.860 --> 34:37.380]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yes, actually, I have, uh, seen a couple of these cases before, and they're usually just a result of what, uh, Mr. Henderson was pointing out a moment ago, just ignorance on the part of the disciplinary authorities.
[34:38.800 --> 34:39.040]  [SPEAKER_25]: Uh-huh.
[34:39.140 --> 34:42.340]  [SPEAKER_25]: But in this case, it seems to be a particularly aggressive kind of ignorance.
[34:43.080 --> 34:44.740]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, it's, it's not uncommon.
[34:45.120 --> 34:52.200]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, what the, my experience has been the dean's office will follow just about anything that's reported to them by the computer science department.
[34:52.200 --> 35:05.420]  [SPEAKER_08]: So you basically have these system administrators down there who are exercising control over other people's academic careers, and the dean's office doesn't understand it, so they can make general allegations that are, in a sort of hacker hysteria atmosphere,
[35:05.700 --> 35:06.560]  [SPEAKER_08]: blown out of proportion.
[35:07.240 --> 35:10.040]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah, I think we're, we're certainly seeing some hacker hysteria here.
[35:10.140 --> 35:23.380]  [SPEAKER_25]: I mean, the, if I can look at some of these, uh, some of these security guidelines that they have at this university, they, um, uh, the user shall not seek or reveal information on, obtain copies of or modify files, tapes, or passwords belonging to other users,
[35:23.500 --> 35:25.140]  [SPEAKER_25]: nor may the user misrepresent others.
[35:25.300 --> 35:25.740]  [SPEAKER_25]: Fair enough.
[35:26.060 --> 35:29.600]  [SPEAKER_25]: Uh, the user may only use his or her legal name or actual title at the university.
[35:29.820 --> 35:33.200]  [SPEAKER_25]: Only one person may use a computer account, and that is the person to whom the account was granted.
[35:34.020 --> 35:40.940]  [SPEAKER_25]: Um, the user shall not use the, the resources provided by the university for purely recreational or trivial purposes.
[35:41.600 --> 35:43.820]  [SPEAKER_25]: Uh, that's, uh, that's kind of interesting, too.
[35:43.820 --> 35:57.960]  [SPEAKER_25]: And also, the, the user shall not engage in deliberately wasteful practices such as printing large amounts of unnecessary output, performing unnecessary computations, uh, simultaneously queuing multiple batch jobs, and holding unused tape drives and telephone lines.
[35:58.380 --> 36:02.220]  [SPEAKER_25]: Uh, it seems pretty, um, pretty open-ended here, what, uh, what you can interpret that as being.
[36:02.300 --> 36:04.140]  [SPEAKER_25]: I mean, performing unnecessary computations?
[36:04.280 --> 36:06.200]  [SPEAKER_25]: How do you, uh, how do you define something like that?
[36:06.360 --> 36:06.940]  [SPEAKER_08]: Quite vague.
[36:07.280 --> 36:08.500]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, it's, uh, very difficult.
[36:08.800 --> 36:17.720]  [SPEAKER_08]: I think that kind of language is aimed directly at, uh, like, cyclic loop things and, and processes that spawn infinite amounts of other processes, uh, those kind of attacks on a system.
[36:17.940 --> 36:21.240]  [SPEAKER_08]: But, uh, one person's necessary computation is unnecessary to another.
[36:21.720 --> 36:27.480]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, the, uh, prohibition on recreation and trivial purposes, uh, actually, we have an answer to every one of these.
[36:28.020 --> 36:32.460]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, I don't know anybody that uses it, uh, the Internet for recreational trivial purposes.
[36:32.640 --> 36:34.000]  [SPEAKER_08]: They usually use it to educate themselves.
[36:34.500 --> 36:44.760]  [SPEAKER_08]: Anyone who knows anything about UNIX file permissions or the accessibility of files within the UNIX operating system knows that this type of shadowed password file is nothing more than a, just a user list.
[36:45.260 --> 36:50.060]  [SPEAKER_08]: And it contains no meaningful information about the, uh, security, uh, relating to the security of the system.
[36:50.620 --> 36:53.900]  [SPEAKER_08]: So, uh, that's not, uh, a, uh, violation there.
[36:54.020 --> 36:55.880]  [SPEAKER_08]: But the dean's office doesn't understand that.
[36:55.980 --> 36:57.440]  [SPEAKER_08]: All they hear is the word password file.
[36:57.760 --> 37:04.400]  [SPEAKER_08]: I once represented a person who was basically going to be thrown out of school for logging on to an IRC, uh, channel known as, as pound hack.
[37:05.340 --> 37:06.600]  [SPEAKER_08]: They just didn't like that name.
[37:07.220 --> 37:11.020]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's, uh, that's a channel that, I mean, I'm on that channel quite a lot, actually, myself.
[37:11.220 --> 37:15.220]  [SPEAKER_25]: And, uh, it's, it's a place where people basically send messages back and forth to each other.
[37:15.360 --> 37:24.880]  [SPEAKER_25]: You, uh, you type IRC on a UNIX system and then you, you join a particular channel, in this case the hack channel, and there's people all over the world sending one-line messages back and forth to each other.
[37:24.940 --> 37:26.720]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's not exactly, uh, organized crime.
[37:26.720 --> 37:28.060]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's just people communicating.
[37:28.260 --> 37:33.000]  [SPEAKER_25]: And I think that's what they, uh, they're really afraid of at, at, at these particular, uh, points.
[37:36.600 --> 37:42.220]  [SPEAKER_25]: One of the James Hendersons also on the line, Avajid Ghosh, um, who, um, I guess broke this story to the Internet.
[37:42.360 --> 37:42.680]  [SPEAKER_25]: Is that right?
[37:43.080 --> 37:43.440]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah.
[37:43.660 --> 37:50.980]  [SPEAKER_14]: Hey, um, yeah, uh, after Casey got his account shut down, he had basically no Internet access.
[37:51.140 --> 37:56.140]  [SPEAKER_14]: So I thought, you know, this is a pretty clear cut case of abusive admins.
[37:56.140 --> 38:01.000]  [SPEAKER_14]: And so I thought, hey, let's spread this out as far and wide as possible.
[38:01.160 --> 38:06.340]  [SPEAKER_14]: And so I posted it here and there on the USENET and this is what the response has been.
[38:06.520 --> 38:08.640]  [SPEAKER_14]: And so far it's been mostly positive.
[38:09.140 --> 38:09.380]  [SPEAKER_25]: Uh-huh.
[38:09.520 --> 38:11.120]  [SPEAKER_25]: Have you gotten, have you gotten negative response?
[38:11.800 --> 38:12.500]  [SPEAKER_14]: Uh, yeah.
[38:12.980 --> 38:17.100]  [SPEAKER_14]: But that, I mean, what's interesting, I mean, I really don't think they have a case.
[38:17.240 --> 38:31.640]  [SPEAKER_14]: Most negative responses have been of the same type that the teen has, teen has actually said, which has been things based on innuendo, you know, like they'll say, oh, Casey has a history or, um, he's clearly violated it.
[38:31.720 --> 38:45.240]  [SPEAKER_14]: A lot of people like restating the premises of that's supposed to, you know, be a self-fulfilling prophecy or something, you know, you say, of course he's violated policy, you know, and that's the proof of it, apparently.
[38:45.480 --> 38:53.480]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, now let's discuss this history a little bit because I looked into it myself and it's kind of hard to believe that this is considered a, uh, you know, a criminal past or something.
[38:53.600 --> 38:56.400]  [SPEAKER_25]: We're talking about, about using IRC, is that right?
[38:56.520 --> 38:56.680]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yes.
[38:57.000 --> 39:02.460]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's, that's one of the offenses is that you actually had the audacity to use this program that would allow you to communicate with other people.
[39:02.540 --> 39:05.760]  [SPEAKER_25]: Sort of like using mail, but a real-time mail.
[39:06.540 --> 39:06.980]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, yes.
[39:07.360 --> 39:08.900]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's multi-user real-time.
[39:09.460 --> 39:14.320]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, just like a telephone except, uh, text descent, uh, line by line.
[39:14.700 --> 39:15.000]  [SPEAKER_16]: Uh-huh.
[39:15.000 --> 39:28.360]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, basically what happened that, during that, that time, uh, when I had to go before the Dean of Students was, uh, I was on a channel, uh, uh, using my First Amendment rights, freedom of
[39:32.410 --> 39:38.590]  [SPEAKER_07]: things, and there were a few bad words in there of mine, uh, and send it to my administrators.
[39:39.350 --> 39:43.970]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, and then they shut the account off then, took it before the Dean of Students.
[39:44.130 --> 39:56.630]  [SPEAKER_07]: I went before the Dean of Students for the charge of using computer resources for purely recreational purposes, and, uh, uh, possible, uh, engagement in behavior that's unpleasant, unpleasant for other users.
[39:57.210 --> 40:04.070]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, I was found guilty of the charge using computing resources for purely recreational purposes.
[40:04.970 --> 40:07.710]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, I mean, that sounds like an absurd charge in itself.
[40:07.970 --> 40:08.550]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yes, it is.
[40:08.690 --> 40:10.270]  [SPEAKER_25]: I can't even believe it's, it's a charge.
[40:10.270 --> 40:13.210]  [SPEAKER_25]: Using a computer for recreational purposes, that, that's a crime, huh?
[40:13.630 --> 40:14.850]  [SPEAKER_07]: Um, according to them.
[40:15.610 --> 40:16.950]  [SPEAKER_25]: Houston, Texas, 1993.
[40:17.030 --> 40:19.530]  [SPEAKER_25]: Let's make sure we're on the same wavelength here.
[40:19.610 --> 40:23.530]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's, um, that's something that, uh, I think a lot of our listeners will have trouble following.
[40:23.850 --> 40:27.190]  [SPEAKER_08]: But it would be that just about any use of the computer network in that matter is educational.
[40:27.830 --> 40:28.270]  [SPEAKER_16]: Uh-huh.
[40:29.410 --> 40:32.290]  [SPEAKER_08]: And there's, uh, there's nothing, uh, trivial about this.
[40:32.410 --> 40:34.150]  [SPEAKER_08]: This is a routine use of a UNIX system.
[40:34.310 --> 40:38.830]  [SPEAKER_08]: They've mischaracterized it to the Dean's Office, resulting in this extreme and unwarranted sanction.
[40:39.610 --> 40:43.850]  [SPEAKER_08]: And, um, it's attracting quite a lot of attention, including that of the Electronic Frontier Foundation.
[40:43.850 --> 40:47.070]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now, what can the EFF do, um, in a situation like this?
[40:47.170 --> 40:49.130]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, uh, in many cases, not much.
[40:49.290 --> 40:50.890]  [SPEAKER_08]: They are, uh, their funds are limited.
[40:51.010 --> 40:51.990]  [SPEAKER_08]: Their involvement is limited.
[40:52.370 --> 40:56.590]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, they had outstanding success in the Steve Jackson case, as everyone knows by now.
[40:57.030 --> 41:00.610]  [SPEAKER_08]: But, uh, often, uh, these kind of calls come in from all over the country.
[41:00.770 --> 41:04.370]  [SPEAKER_08]: And what we do is coordinate a network of cooperating attorneys, of which I'm one.
[41:05.030 --> 41:07.010]  [SPEAKER_08]: And these attorneys have different specialties.
[41:07.010 --> 41:08.110]  [SPEAKER_08]: I'm a civil specialist.
[41:09.430 --> 41:17.690]  [SPEAKER_08]: And, uh, they are, uh, uh, called upon to give legal advice, and in some cases, actually entered into representation of people charged with these kind of offenses, alleged offenses.
[41:19.110 --> 41:19.710]  [SPEAKER_25]: I see.
[41:20.190 --> 41:22.550]  [SPEAKER_25]: Do you think there's lots of cases like this going on in the country?
[41:23.050 --> 41:23.410]  [SPEAKER_08]: Obviously.
[41:23.650 --> 41:25.230]  [SPEAKER_08]: I've seen, uh, quite a few of them.
[41:25.470 --> 41:26.890]  [SPEAKER_08]: They, uh, they're well-publicized.
[41:26.990 --> 41:27.810]  [SPEAKER_08]: They appear over the net.
[41:27.990 --> 41:35.370]  [SPEAKER_08]: I can only surmise how many more people accepted this kind of punishment meekly and just, uh, went home or, uh, or had no choice but to accept it.
[41:35.590 --> 41:41.810]  [SPEAKER_08]: So they didn't have access to, either access to legal counsel or access to legal counsel that could understand the issues involved.
[41:42.050 --> 41:49.110]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, you know, I think this is a, this is a good example of how the net can be used as, uh, as a means of, of getting the word out on important issues like this.
[41:49.330 --> 41:50.790]  [SPEAKER_25]: Uh, Avajit, you, you spread the word.
[41:51.170 --> 41:55.690]  [SPEAKER_25]: Uh, do you think it, it could have been done effectively without the net or, uh, or certainly this fast?
[41:55.950 --> 41:57.370]  [SPEAKER_14]: Oh, no, not at all.
[41:57.670 --> 42:15.510]  [SPEAKER_14]: Um, I mean, it's, it's, it's the discussion that occurred after it was posted, which, you know, really did it, you know, um, uh, I, I think, uh, Ryan had said that he was discussing it with his friends and, you know, and they all, you know, originally from the post and,
[42:15.690 --> 42:29.110]  [SPEAKER_14]: I mean, you know, you got in contact with me through the post and the discussion, you know, all originated all through the use net, you know, and, um, a lot of admins have actually offered to write letters and things like that.
[42:29.230 --> 42:31.510]  [SPEAKER_14]: And I think that'll help out, you know, also.
[42:32.210 --> 42:34.090]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now, Steve, where does the case stand now?
[42:34.190 --> 42:36.850]  [SPEAKER_25]: He has been effectively kicked out of school for a year now.
[42:36.850 --> 42:38.690]  [SPEAKER_25]: Is there an appeals process going on?
[42:38.970 --> 42:43.130]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yes, there's an administrative appeals process, which we're going through right now.
[42:43.270 --> 42:53.990]  [SPEAKER_08]: And we're also requesting a full disciplinary hearing because of certain procedural deficiencies in the process, the kind of due process they've been giving my client.
[42:54.630 --> 42:59.110]  [SPEAKER_08]: They have not really provided them an opportunity to confront the witnesses against him.
[42:59.570 --> 43:03.430]  [SPEAKER_08]: Some of the key people involved conveniently went on vacation and didn't appear at the hearing.
[43:03.750 --> 43:05.590]  [SPEAKER_08]: There's no effective notice of the charges.
[43:05.590 --> 43:11.210]  [SPEAKER_08]: You heard that absurdly tautological charge of using a computer other than what it's to be used for.
[43:11.750 --> 43:15.970]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, a computer is the most flexible tool on Earth, and you can use it to do just about anything.
[43:16.550 --> 43:22.950]  [SPEAKER_08]: And if this can be looking up basically a phone directory inside the system can be characterized as an offense, then everyone's at risk.
[43:23.750 --> 43:24.730]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's certainly true.
[43:24.730 --> 43:31.030]  [SPEAKER_25]: And, you know, if something like this actually does manage to be done successfully, I shudder to think what they're going to try next.
[43:32.490 --> 43:35.430]  [SPEAKER_25]: The University of Houston, is that a public school or a private school?
[43:36.130 --> 43:36.530]  Public.
[43:36.850 --> 43:37.790]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's a public school.
[43:37.990 --> 43:40.190]  [SPEAKER_25]: Is it part of the state of Texas?
[43:40.530 --> 43:40.610]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yes.
[43:41.230 --> 43:44.750]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, so is it possible, Steve, let me ask you this.
[43:44.770 --> 43:49.730]  [SPEAKER_25]: Is it possible for James to sue the school for depriving him of an education?
[43:50.310 --> 43:51.270]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yes, it is.
[43:52.310 --> 43:58.010]  [SPEAKER_08]: In modern jurisprudence, contracts are interpreted to exist between a college and a student.
[43:58.150 --> 44:00.150]  [SPEAKER_08]: They pay their money, and you get certain things in return.
[44:00.610 --> 44:05.950]  [SPEAKER_08]: And you can't be deprived of these things without certain procedural safeguards regarding due process.
[44:06.130 --> 44:07.390]  [SPEAKER_08]: And this is well-established law.
[44:07.650 --> 44:12.910]  [SPEAKER_08]: And the law also requires that you exhaust the administrative process within the school before going to court.
[44:15.670 --> 44:30.610]  [SPEAKER_08]: When a substantial right of the student, like the right to receive an education, or when absurd sanctions are imposed, such as, because Mr. Henderson is a computer science major, it's utterly meaningless to allow him to return to school if he's not allowed to have a computer account.
[44:31.370 --> 44:36.350]  [SPEAKER_08]: And that's a, it's a form of discrimination, and it shows that they really don't know what they're dealing with here.
[44:36.490 --> 44:40.630]  [SPEAKER_25]: There's also the, what is known as the chilling effect of an action like this.
[44:40.630 --> 44:49.090]  [SPEAKER_25]: I mean, what, how, how is a student supposed to react knowing that this is the kind of thing that can happen to him if the slightest thing goes wrong?
[44:49.510 --> 44:56.470]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, if they incur the displeasure of these almighty sysadmins that they have there, when they take a dislike to someone, they can do them a great deal of damage.
[44:57.030 --> 45:09.670]  [SPEAKER_08]: And I've seen documents indicating that the sysadministrators of, of the University of Houston, are prejudiced against my client because of, they don't like his attitude or something, some vague thing, they just don't like him.
[45:10.110 --> 45:16.270]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, you can like or dislike a person as you wish, but when you want to terminate their academic career, you're going to need to prove that in court.
[45:16.930 --> 45:20.630]  [SPEAKER_08]: And they just go and tell tales to the dean, and the dean doesn't know what's going on.
[45:21.370 --> 45:33.270]  [SPEAKER_08]: And I guess technically under this code, they could charge a person with misuse of resources for printing one sheet of paper too many on a printout, or having an inadvertent infinite loop that results in quite a few pages before he gets caught.
[45:33.830 --> 45:36.970]  [SPEAKER_25]: All these crimes we had no idea people were getting away with.
[45:37.750 --> 45:38.450]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's right.
[45:38.570 --> 45:47.750]  [SPEAKER_08]: And the worst crime under the SysOps administration here is to have the wrong attitude or to push the system to its limits, to expand its flexibility.
[45:48.470 --> 45:56.870]  [SPEAKER_08]: I shudder to think that what they really want is for students to go through using a text editor and email only and not use any of the other vast resources available on the Internet.
[45:58.010 --> 45:59.310]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's exactly backwards.
[45:59.530 --> 46:01.630]  [SPEAKER_08]: That is the opposite of educational purpose.
[46:01.890 --> 46:15.950]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah, I mean, I've always said that, you know, they should be happy that people are using computers and exploring their uses and figuring out new ways to apply them instead of trying to regulate and tell people exactly what they have to do and all the things they cannot do.
[46:16.210 --> 46:21.670]  [SPEAKER_25]: I believe there was one other charge against James in the past, and that was running a MUD.
[46:21.770 --> 46:22.170]  [SPEAKER_25]: Is that right?
[46:22.410 --> 46:22.590]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yes.
[46:22.790 --> 46:24.550]  [SPEAKER_25]: Do you want to explain to the listeners what a MUD is?
[46:24.550 --> 46:27.230]  [SPEAKER_07]: MUD is short for multi-user dungeon.
[46:27.550 --> 46:36.330]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's a type of multi-user real-time game, sort of like the Infocom games, Zork, Planetfall, those kind of games.
[46:36.650 --> 46:44.210]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's text where users log in and they can interact by talking, saying things, or doing actions.
[46:48.490 --> 46:55.670]  [SPEAKER_07]: Basically, what I did was, a friend of mine out of UT had closed one of his games.
[46:56.290 --> 47:00.270]  [SPEAKER_07]: He downloaded it to me, and I set it up.
[47:00.410 --> 47:05.590]  [SPEAKER_07]: I was just getting it in the set... I was using... I was just in the set-up stages of the MUD.
[47:07.010 --> 47:17.190]  [SPEAKER_07]: And there were no active players or anybody logging in when I got this e-mail warning to not use game servers on their system.
[47:19.750 --> 47:23.310]  [SPEAKER_07]: Basically, they don't want game servers because it takes up too much CPU time.
[47:23.510 --> 47:29.390]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, even if there were 50 or 100 users online, it wouldn't take more than 0.5% of the CPU.
[47:29.390 --> 47:35.910]  [SPEAKER_07]: It takes very little resources, but they don't give any sort of detailed explanation why they don't want it.
[47:36.770 --> 47:41.510]  [SPEAKER_07]: You know, no reason that I can see that it means anything.
[47:43.730 --> 47:47.970]  [SPEAKER_07]: I had some information on the game, so I had to reload it.
[47:48.170 --> 47:53.030]  [SPEAKER_07]: And instantly, about 30 seconds after I reloaded it, they were watching me.
[47:53.110 --> 47:54.870]  [SPEAKER_07]: They have Hawkeyes on me.
[47:54.870 --> 47:56.370]  [SPEAKER_07]: And they shut my account off.
[47:57.490 --> 47:59.890]  [SPEAKER_07]: And later, I had to go before the dean on this.
[48:00.830 --> 48:05.210]  [SPEAKER_25]: Do you think they actually go so far as to go through people's mail and their private files?
[48:05.570 --> 48:10.090]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, they say they don't in a Daily Cougar, which is the campus newspaper.
[48:10.590 --> 48:17.450]  [SPEAKER_07]: They say that they don't go through e-mail unless they have to.
[48:18.850 --> 48:20.130]  [SPEAKER_25]: What exactly does that mean?
[48:20.130 --> 48:21.530]  [SPEAKER_25]: They don't go through it unless they have to.
[48:22.210 --> 48:24.070]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, I'm not sure what the wording was in the newspaper.
[48:24.070 --> 48:25.910]  [SPEAKER_07]: But they said they normally don't go through e-mail.
[48:27.390 --> 48:28.990]  [SPEAKER_07]: E-mail should be private.
[48:29.270 --> 48:31.710]  [SPEAKER_07]: So they do have some sort of respect.
[48:31.710 --> 48:32.430]  [SPEAKER_07]: But who knows?
[48:33.350 --> 48:36.850]  [SPEAKER_07]: They could be going through mines, for all I know.
[48:37.210 --> 48:37.510]  [SPEAKER_25]: Uh-huh.
[48:38.730 --> 48:40.470]  [SPEAKER_25]: Another reason for encryption.
[48:40.770 --> 48:43.530]  [SPEAKER_25]: But that's another topic entirely.
[48:44.210 --> 48:52.050]  [SPEAKER_14]: Interestingly, that same Daily Cougar article actually said, in their mind, it was illegal to use TALK.
[48:52.810 --> 48:56.410]  [SPEAKER_14]: So, I mean, it was just kind of odd in my mind.
[48:56.630 --> 49:02.770]  [SPEAKER_14]: But the admins in that article actually claimed it was illegal to talk to people through an account.
[49:03.070 --> 49:11.210]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now, for the listeners, TALK is a program that allows you to communicate real-time with another user one-to-one, not a public forum like IRC.
[49:11.510 --> 49:13.950]  [SPEAKER_25]: So they're saying that even doing that is illegal.
[49:13.970 --> 49:18.650]  [SPEAKER_25]: They probably say that's a waste of computer resources and not what the computer is intended to be used for.
[49:18.810 --> 49:19.030]  [SPEAKER_25]: Is that right?
[49:19.510 --> 49:19.890]  [SPEAKER_07]: Right.
[49:20.350 --> 49:30.550]  [SPEAKER_07]: If you look in the policy, it does say accounts at the university are to be used for e-mail, USENET, and editing purposes only.
[49:30.550 --> 49:32.990]  [SPEAKER_07]: Any other function is considered a violation.
[49:33.610 --> 49:37.070]  [SPEAKER_07]: So what I'm wondering is how do people do directory listings?
[49:37.630 --> 49:42.150]  [SPEAKER_07]: To do a directory listing, you have to run a program which is on the system.
[49:43.190 --> 49:45.290]  [SPEAKER_07]: Would that be considered doing another function?
[49:45.470 --> 49:46.830]  [SPEAKER_07]: Would it be considered a violation?
[49:47.410 --> 49:48.830]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's just absurd policy.
[49:49.090 --> 50:00.450]  [SPEAKER_25]: Steve, let me ask you, as a lawyer, do you think that it's possible this entire policy can be challenged, not just as it applies to James, but the entire University of Houston computer policy that's so restrictive?
[50:01.290 --> 50:03.090]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, you could only work...
[50:03.090 --> 50:05.710]  [SPEAKER_08]: The law only changes in instances of specific cases.
[50:05.890 --> 50:08.330]  [SPEAKER_08]: And from that, you try to abstract general principles.
[50:08.650 --> 50:11.450]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's clear that this present set of guidelines isn't going to work.
[50:11.550 --> 50:13.390]  [SPEAKER_08]: And I was wondering the same thing about it.
[50:13.670 --> 50:19.270]  [SPEAKER_08]: How can a person run a compiler, for example, or invoke a different shell if that's not running a text editor?
[50:20.030 --> 50:22.890]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's just absurd, and it results in selective prosecution.
[50:23.630 --> 50:32.130]  [SPEAKER_08]: The computer community and the computer-using community is going to have to come up with a formulation of these rights and not leave them up to the dean's office and the legislature's to write.
[50:32.270 --> 50:33.570]  [SPEAKER_08]: That results in terrible law.
[50:35.190 --> 50:38.630]  [SPEAKER_08]: It can be overturned, but only in specific cases to answer your question.
[50:40.710 --> 50:47.210]  [SPEAKER_25]: This is certainly a shocking case, I think, from the point of view of civil liberties, freedom of speech, that kind of thing.
[50:47.850 --> 51:02.510]  [SPEAKER_25]: In many ways, I mean, you don't have a raid by the Secret Service here, but I think it rivals the Steve Jackson case and just the, I don't know, the offensiveness of the way that the victim is dealt with.
[51:02.670 --> 51:03.830]  [SPEAKER_25]: I mean, you're assumed guilty.
[51:04.610 --> 51:10.770]  [SPEAKER_25]: No matter what facts are presented on your side, it just, they present their version of things, and that's the way it is.
[51:10.830 --> 51:14.090]  [SPEAKER_25]: I mean, they say that you read a password file and you did no such thing.
[51:15.350 --> 51:15.750]  [SPEAKER_08]: Exactly.
[51:15.750 --> 51:21.250]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's interesting you draw that parallel, Emmanuel, because I was just reviewing that tonight.
[51:21.430 --> 51:28.750]  [SPEAKER_08]: One of the aspects of Mr. Henderson's case we're looking into is exactly that, a violation of the same statutes that were violated in Mr. Jackson's case.
[51:29.430 --> 51:44.070]  [SPEAKER_08]: And as you know, in that case, the Secret Service was defeated and lost a substantial judgment to Mr. Jackson for violation of the Privacy Protection Act and Stored Wire Communications Acts and the Electronic Communications Privacy Acts.
[51:44.130 --> 51:45.570]  [SPEAKER_08]: These were the three statutes involved.
[51:45.970 --> 52:00.410]  [SPEAKER_08]: And it's possible that the University of Houston, which does maintain these facilities, has basically violated his rights by refusing to continue his access, to grant him his access.
[52:01.850 --> 52:03.410]  [SPEAKER_25]: It certainly would seem that way.
[52:03.910 --> 52:13.590]  [SPEAKER_25]: We're talking with James Henderson, the student at the University of Houston who has been suspended for a year for printing a file on a computer system.
[52:14.390 --> 52:23.390]  [SPEAKER_25]: His friend, Avijit Ghosh, who has helped to get the word out on the Internet, and his attorney, Steve Ryan, who works with the Electronic Frontier Foundation.
[52:24.010 --> 52:35.570]  [SPEAKER_25]: At this point, we have to break for a couple of minutes just to ask our listeners to please phone in their support for the radio station, as you've just heard a very interesting, disturbing story.
[52:35.570 --> 52:43.110]  [SPEAKER_25]: One of many, you know, we present a lot of stories like this on this program, but each time we do, it seems to be treading into new ground.
[52:43.490 --> 52:54.970]  [SPEAKER_25]: Your support at this time, by calling 212-279-3400, ensures that we will have the right to remain here, to continue to bring you these stories, and spread the word.
[52:55.170 --> 53:02.070]  [SPEAKER_25]: You heard what we were saying about the Internet, and about how you're able to get the word out, and how people find out about this.
[53:02.070 --> 53:06.890]  [SPEAKER_25]: So I found out about this story through the Internet, through seeing something in electronic mail.
[53:07.210 --> 53:18.570]  [SPEAKER_25]: And through that, I was able to bring it on to WBAI, and to our listeners who are now hearing it, and will hopefully talk to some more people, and they'll tell friends, and it'll just keep going on and on and on.
[53:19.550 --> 53:29.310]  [SPEAKER_25]: By calling 212-279-3400, you're strengthening us, you're giving us a vote of support, and allowing us to continue to do these things in the future.
[53:29.630 --> 53:31.890]  [SPEAKER_25]: 212-279-3400.
[53:31.970 --> 53:41.570]  [SPEAKER_25]: For those of you that call in with a pledge of $75, you'll get a full year of 2600 Magazine, the Hacker Quarterly, the magazine that some people think is illegal to even look at.
[53:41.630 --> 53:42.250]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, that's not true.
[53:42.270 --> 53:44.210]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's about as illegal to look at as it is to...
[53:44.210 --> 53:45.930]  [SPEAKER_25]: as it is illegal to print out a file.
[53:46.690 --> 53:49.810]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's just another misconception that needs to be torn down.
[53:50.750 --> 53:55.410]  [SPEAKER_25]: 2600 is a valuable tool in the battle for free speech.
[53:56.150 --> 54:03.790]  [SPEAKER_25]: You can learn things about new technological creations, new phone services, new computer systems.
[54:04.010 --> 54:07.610]  [SPEAKER_25]: You'll hear about cases like what's happening to James Henderson in that magazine.
[54:08.090 --> 54:27.250]  [SPEAKER_25]: And at the same time, you'll also get a 2600 t-shirt, a Hacker t-shirt that allows the rest of the world to know that you're an educated person, and that you value things like technology, and that you are more likely to use technology for your own good rather than to abuse other people,
[54:27.270 --> 54:30.230]  [SPEAKER_25]: and you certainly won't stand for being abused by technologies.
[54:30.250 --> 54:36.730]  [SPEAKER_25]: This is a good case, I think, of an example of how technology can be used as an oppressor's tool.
[54:37.110 --> 54:38.630]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's what we have to watch out for.
[54:38.670 --> 54:42.790]  [SPEAKER_25]: We have to make sure that the oppressors don't get the upper hand in technology.
[54:43.150 --> 54:46.050]  [SPEAKER_25]: 212-279-3400 is our telephone number.
[54:47.530 --> 54:55.510]  [SPEAKER_25]: We need to have support so that we can continue to bring you programs like this so that the word can continue to get out.
[54:56.190 --> 54:57.430]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's what it's all about.
[54:57.510 --> 55:00.070]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's what WBAI is about, getting the word out.
[55:00.210 --> 55:01.970]  [SPEAKER_25]: 212-279-3400.
[55:02.130 --> 55:07.530]  [SPEAKER_25]: Our numbers are embarrassingly low for this particular program.
[55:07.530 --> 55:10.990]  [SPEAKER_25]: And, you know, I don't want to say what they are because they're so incredibly low.
[55:12.010 --> 55:13.550]  [SPEAKER_25]: But we do need to hear from you.
[55:13.630 --> 55:16.030]  [SPEAKER_25]: If you're out there now, please pick up the phone.
[55:16.150 --> 55:16.690]  [SPEAKER_25]: We take Visa.
[55:16.810 --> 55:17.930]  [SPEAKER_25]: We take MasterCard.
[55:18.850 --> 55:20.370]  [SPEAKER_25]: And we do need to hear from you.
[55:20.370 --> 55:22.390]  [SPEAKER_25]: 212-279-3400.
[55:22.470 --> 55:23.930]  [SPEAKER_25]: We're winding down this pledge drive.
[55:24.030 --> 55:25.270]  [SPEAKER_25]: I know a lot of people have called in.
[55:25.350 --> 55:26.630]  [SPEAKER_25]: I want to thank those people that have.
[55:27.330 --> 55:29.710]  [SPEAKER_25]: But there are still those of you that have not.
[55:29.910 --> 55:36.410]  [SPEAKER_25]: And it's vital that we hear from you so that we can continue to bring you this kind of information.
[55:37.690 --> 55:41.910]  [SPEAKER_25]: Claude is here, valued studio engineer from The Computer Show.
[55:42.710 --> 55:43.010]  [SPEAKER_20]: Mm-hmm.
[55:43.910 --> 55:48.230]  [SPEAKER_20]: One of the minions who have unpaid staff here.
[55:48.730 --> 55:50.370]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah, we don't get paid here, you know.
[55:50.370 --> 55:51.670]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's something I think we should point out.
[55:52.010 --> 55:53.230]  [SPEAKER_25]: We should point out quite a bit.
[55:53.910 --> 55:54.730]  [SPEAKER_25]: We don't get this.
[55:54.790 --> 55:55.610]  [SPEAKER_25]: Money doesn't go to us.
[55:55.710 --> 56:00.390]  [SPEAKER_25]: This money goes to the radio station to keep, well, to keep, for instance, the phones working.
[56:00.550 --> 56:06.110]  [SPEAKER_25]: So that we can talk to people in Houston, Texas without hearing annoying, you know, hums and buzzes and things like that.
[56:06.110 --> 56:07.790]  [SPEAKER_20]: And Leona Helmsley infers.
[56:08.250 --> 56:08.790]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, yeah, you know.
[56:08.790 --> 56:09.650]  [SPEAKER_20]: But that's how it goes.
[56:09.750 --> 56:13.130]  [SPEAKER_25]: You see, the way it works is we have to pay for the space in the Empire State Building.
[56:13.310 --> 56:17.850]  [SPEAKER_25]: And it just so happens that, you know, 95% of the world's wealth is owned by 1%.
[56:17.850 --> 56:22.190]  [SPEAKER_25]: So that 1% obviously is able to, you know, to thrive off of us.
[56:22.290 --> 56:23.690]  [SPEAKER_25]: But think of it this way.
[56:23.810 --> 56:26.310]  [SPEAKER_25]: By having our transmitter up there, we're able to reach you.
[56:26.410 --> 56:27.550]  [SPEAKER_25]: You're able to hear our signal.
[56:27.570 --> 56:28.610]  [SPEAKER_25]: You're able to learn something.
[56:28.810 --> 56:33.490]  [SPEAKER_25]: If you've learned anything from this program tonight, think about how much knowledge is worth.
[56:33.490 --> 56:36.450]  [SPEAKER_25]: Is it really worth, say, $1 a week?
[56:36.750 --> 56:39.530]  [SPEAKER_25]: You know, it's about what we're asking you to pledge here.
[56:39.710 --> 56:41.410]  [SPEAKER_25]: Not everybody has to pledge $75.
[56:41.730 --> 56:42.430]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's not what we're saying.
[56:42.590 --> 56:42.730]  [SPEAKER_25]: Uh-uh.
[56:42.850 --> 56:43.730]  [SPEAKER_25]: People can pledge...
[56:43.730 --> 56:44.590]  [SPEAKER_25]: What's the basic amount?
[56:44.770 --> 56:47.330]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, $50, $25 low income.
[56:47.530 --> 56:48.510]  [SPEAKER_25]: $25 low income.
[56:48.870 --> 56:53.470]  [SPEAKER_25]: And, you know, if we were pledging, we'd be low income because that's how WBAI is.
[56:54.130 --> 56:55.490]  [SPEAKER_25]: 212-279-3400.
[56:55.590 --> 56:56.930]  [SPEAKER_25]: We only have one call on the line.
[56:57.110 --> 56:58.790]  [SPEAKER_25]: And I know we have more than one listener.
[56:59.710 --> 57:07.950]  [SPEAKER_20]: And, you know, you who are listening, you know that your $50 is not going to make or break the station.
[57:08.130 --> 57:12.890]  [SPEAKER_20]: You know that unquestionably if you give much thought to anything.
[57:14.590 --> 57:16.750]  [SPEAKER_20]: But it's a form...
[57:16.750 --> 57:18.990]  [SPEAKER_20]: It's freeloading for one, obviously.
[57:19.230 --> 57:24.810]  [SPEAKER_20]: And you know in your heart that the right thing to do is to give to a station you actually do listen to.
[57:24.910 --> 57:27.750]  [SPEAKER_20]: You give hours of your life to listen to it.
[57:29.010 --> 57:36.570]  [SPEAKER_20]: And in another way, you'll be giving some hours of your life to help support it so that you can hear this so that it will still be there for you.
[57:36.690 --> 57:38.870]  [SPEAKER_20]: It's not a given thing that it will be here.
[57:39.010 --> 57:41.230]  [SPEAKER_25]: There are no other radio stations like this in New York City.
[57:41.410 --> 57:43.390]  [SPEAKER_25]: I mean, yes, there are non-commercial radio stations.
[57:43.590 --> 57:49.390]  [SPEAKER_25]: But there is no program like Off the Hook anywhere, I think, in the country, let alone in New York City.
[57:50.410 --> 57:53.250]  [SPEAKER_25]: We are committed to freedom of speech here.
[57:53.350 --> 57:59.410]  [SPEAKER_25]: Other stations, other non-commercial stations are committed to classical music or jazz or you know, news of some sort.
[57:59.570 --> 58:03.410]  [SPEAKER_25]: But not alternative ideas to the extent that WBAI is.
[58:03.690 --> 58:04.930]  [SPEAKER_25]: We're unique in that.
[58:05.690 --> 58:07.430]  [SPEAKER_25]: We're world famous in that, in fact.
[58:07.590 --> 58:11.150]  [SPEAKER_25]: WBAI has a reputation that spans the globe.
[58:11.350 --> 58:13.150]  [SPEAKER_20]: Or at least infamous, if not famous.
[58:13.330 --> 58:13.670]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's true.
[58:13.830 --> 58:15.750]  [SPEAKER_25]: 212-279-3400.
[58:15.950 --> 58:17.190]  [SPEAKER_25]: Please give us a call.
[58:17.190 --> 58:26.110]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, now, we have a couple of people on from Houston, Texas, who have been talking to us about an injustice, a rather large injustice that's been going on down there.
[58:26.710 --> 58:28.090]  [SPEAKER_25]: Steve Ryan, you're an attorney.
[58:28.270 --> 58:32.990]  [SPEAKER_25]: And I believe you have a station down there that's a Pacifica station as well, right?
[58:33.270 --> 58:33.730]  [SPEAKER_08]: Absolutely.
[58:33.730 --> 58:34.790]  [SPEAKER_08]: We have KPFT.
[58:35.550 --> 58:36.010]  [SPEAKER_25]: KPFT.
[58:36.810 --> 58:39.330]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now, that's located at 90.1 on the dial?
[58:39.570 --> 58:39.970]  [SPEAKER_08]: Absolutely.
[58:40.390 --> 58:42.570]  [SPEAKER_25]: And what kind of things do they do?
[58:42.570 --> 58:50.970]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, what I like them for is their wide variety of programming, everything from unusual world beat music to talk shows that I like to listen to.
[58:51.090 --> 58:57.650]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's a good alternative to the same old formula radio stations and commercial yammer.
[58:58.070 --> 58:59.710]  [SPEAKER_25]: They play techno music as well, huh?
[59:00.150 --> 59:01.550]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yes, just about everything.
[59:01.550 --> 59:08.190]  [SPEAKER_08]: There's a gentleman down here who has a show called Radiodrome on there, which is a pioneering, cybernetic type of show.
[59:08.330 --> 59:13.730]  [SPEAKER_08]: They interview net personalities and go online during the show and read off the screen into the mic, various things like that.
[59:13.830 --> 59:14.050]  [SPEAKER_25]: Uh-huh.
[59:14.190 --> 59:17.190]  [SPEAKER_25]: So, the thing is, you need alternatives to the mainstream.
[59:17.750 --> 59:25.390]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now, the case that we've been talking about here for the past 45 minutes or so, you probably have not heard about in the mainstream media.
[59:25.650 --> 59:27.510]  [SPEAKER_25]: Even National Public Radio hasn't picked it up yet.
[59:27.570 --> 59:29.150]  [SPEAKER_25]: They might, but they haven't as of yet.
[59:29.950 --> 59:39.370]  [SPEAKER_25]: And certainly NBC and CBS and ABC have not picked up this story of a student being kicked out of school for printing a file, printing a publicly accessible file on a computer.
[59:40.130 --> 59:47.270]  [SPEAKER_25]: This kind of technophobia has to be reported, has to be reported at the early stages, because if it's not, it's going to become the norm.
[59:47.270 --> 59:54.170]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's going to become something that we're all used to, and we're all going to just say anybody that uses a phone and a modem and a computer is a criminal.
[59:54.170 --> 59:57.190]  [SPEAKER_25]: We're going to say things like that, and we're actually going to believe them.
[59:57.190 --> 59:59.530]  [SPEAKER_25]: 212-279-3400.
[59:59.730 --> 01:00:03.830]  [SPEAKER_25]: Our lines seem to be all lit up, but I know that can't be true.
[01:00:03.950 --> 01:00:05.290]  [SPEAKER_25]: I know there must be an open line in there somewhere.
[01:00:05.410 --> 01:00:05.810]  [SPEAKER_25]: Oh, there's one.
[01:00:05.930 --> 01:00:06.030]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay.
[01:00:06.150 --> 01:00:07.730]  [SPEAKER_25]: 212-279-3400.
[01:00:07.990 --> 01:00:11.490]  [SPEAKER_25]: Join the people on the phone and pledge whatever you can afford.
[01:00:11.670 --> 01:00:14.910]  [SPEAKER_25]: $75 will get you $2,600 magazine for an entire year.
[01:00:15.030 --> 01:00:21.190]  [SPEAKER_25]: We're a quarterly magazine, and we've got just about every major corporation angry at us for one reason or another.
[01:00:21.250 --> 01:00:21.750]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's a good sign.
[01:00:21.870 --> 01:00:22.050]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah.
[01:00:22.050 --> 01:00:31.870]  [SPEAKER_25]: And our 2600 t-shirt has a schematic of a blue box on the front, which some people say is illegal to wear in California because there's some sort of a law against access devices.
[01:00:32.050 --> 01:00:33.410]  [SPEAKER_25]: But I don't know if that's really true.
[01:00:33.550 --> 01:00:37.870]  [SPEAKER_25]: But then again, if you like to live a daring life, you'll wear a shirt like that.
[01:00:38.010 --> 01:00:39.570]  [SPEAKER_25]: White lettering on a black background.
[01:00:41.350 --> 01:00:42.770]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's the in thing to do.
[01:00:42.930 --> 01:00:44.990]  [SPEAKER_25]: 212-279-3400.
[01:00:46.990 --> 01:00:52.570]  [SPEAKER_25]: WBAI is probably the most unique radio station of its kind in the world, I would say.
[01:00:52.650 --> 01:00:56.410]  [SPEAKER_25]: I found a book about WBAI in Berlin in a German bookstore.
[01:00:56.650 --> 01:01:00.090]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's a book about the Pacifica Network, and they were talking all about WBAI.
[01:01:00.290 --> 01:01:03.610]  [SPEAKER_25]: Of course, I couldn't understand it because I can't read German, but I could see that, you know, they were...
[01:01:03.610 --> 01:01:06.310]  [SPEAKER_20]: So it might have been ripping the station.
[01:01:06.430 --> 01:01:06.750]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, no.
[01:01:06.830 --> 01:01:08.650]  [SPEAKER_25]: You see, the thing is they kept going into English.
[01:01:08.650 --> 01:01:12.030]  [SPEAKER_25]: They would quote something that was an English document, and they would speak English for a while.
[01:01:12.330 --> 01:01:14.290]  [SPEAKER_25]: And then they would go back to German, and I'd be lost.
[01:01:14.490 --> 01:01:18.530]  [SPEAKER_25]: But you could tell the whole thing was pretty much getting into the Pacifica spirit of everything.
[01:01:19.470 --> 01:01:20.730]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's what we like people to do out there.
[01:01:20.790 --> 01:01:22.130]  [SPEAKER_25]: Get into the Pacifica spirit.
[01:01:22.270 --> 01:01:23.410]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's what it's all about.
[01:01:23.910 --> 01:01:36.350]  [SPEAKER_25]: The Pacifica spirit, if you don't know, is basically that which allows you to listen to things you don't agree with, which allows you to speak your mind freely and openly, and which allows you to sit back and enjoy listening to the radio.
[01:01:36.350 --> 01:01:39.850]  [SPEAKER_25]: You know, that's the kind of thing that a lot of people just don't do enough of anymore.
[01:01:39.850 --> 01:01:41.250]  [SPEAKER_25]: We watch mindless TV.
[01:01:41.570 --> 01:01:44.190]  [SPEAKER_25]: We listen to mindless top 40 radio.
[01:01:44.350 --> 01:01:48.150]  [SPEAKER_25]: But we don't ever sit down and actually listen to what's going on.
[01:01:48.290 --> 01:02:00.030]  [SPEAKER_20]: And, you know, I believe that in the original document that founded Pacifica, one of the important phrases in it was to give voice to the voiceless.
[01:02:00.970 --> 01:02:05.590]  [SPEAKER_20]: And in commercial radio, there are voices you are just not going to hear.
[01:02:05.590 --> 01:02:09.090]  [SPEAKER_20]: Your voice, I don't think, would be wanted...
[01:02:09.090 --> 01:02:10.110]  [SPEAKER_20]: No, my voice is prohibited.
[01:02:10.350 --> 01:02:11.810]  [SPEAKER_25]: My voice is prohibited on commercial radio.
[01:02:12.010 --> 01:02:13.750]  [SPEAKER_25]: They do not want me around.
[01:02:14.150 --> 01:02:15.930]  [SPEAKER_25]: No, no, definitely not.
[01:02:16.210 --> 01:02:18.570]  [SPEAKER_25]: If they know what's good for them, they don't want me around.
[01:02:19.490 --> 01:02:24.970]  [SPEAKER_20]: And then I think the show that preceded you, the computer show, they could not possibly...
[01:02:24.970 --> 01:02:35.010]  [SPEAKER_20]: the personal computer show could not possibly do what they do, attacking companies for putting out shoddy software, shoddy machinery, when they believe that's so.
[01:02:35.010 --> 01:02:38.170]  [SPEAKER_20]: It's not just verbal vandalism they do.
[01:02:39.110 --> 01:02:41.890]  [SPEAKER_20]: It's sort of consumer voice of the air.
[01:02:42.090 --> 01:02:43.410]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah, and that's the difference.
[01:02:43.570 --> 01:02:45.450]  [SPEAKER_25]: People say, well, why do you have to have these begathons?
[01:02:45.530 --> 01:02:48.670]  [SPEAKER_25]: Why do you have to, you know, ask for money and degrade yourself on the air?
[01:02:48.810 --> 01:02:50.830]  [SPEAKER_25]: And, you know, yeah, I guess it is degrading to a degree.
[01:02:50.830 --> 01:02:53.630]  [SPEAKER_25]: But if we didn't do this, we'd have to have commercials.
[01:02:53.630 --> 01:02:55.470]  [SPEAKER_25]: And if we had commercials, we couldn't do this.
[01:02:55.530 --> 01:02:56.930]  [SPEAKER_25]: We couldn't have programs like this.
[01:02:57.130 --> 01:03:02.970]  [SPEAKER_25]: We couldn't have programs that criticize the system, the, you know, powerful entities that run things.
[01:03:05.010 --> 01:03:08.490]  [SPEAKER_25]: In front of the people that own the Empire State Building, where we have our transmitter, you know?
[01:03:08.570 --> 01:03:09.330]  [SPEAKER_25]: We're able to do that.
[01:03:09.370 --> 01:03:11.950]  [SPEAKER_20]: As long as the rent gets paid, and the listeners could help with that.
[01:03:12.090 --> 01:03:13.410]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah, that's the only requirement.
[01:03:13.450 --> 01:03:15.610]  [SPEAKER_25]: You know, they don't have control over what we say.
[01:03:15.830 --> 01:03:20.050]  [SPEAKER_20]: It occurs to me that on Friday mornings, there's Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting.
[01:03:20.050 --> 01:03:24.590]  [SPEAKER_20]: And that organization puts out a magazine called Extra.
[01:03:24.870 --> 01:03:29.030]  [SPEAKER_20]: And the current issue is, has a picture of Rush Limbaugh on it.
[01:03:29.130 --> 01:03:35.130]  [SPEAKER_20]: And it talks about, it has a large section about the right-wing tilt of talk radio.
[01:03:36.130 --> 01:03:45.510]  [SPEAKER_20]: And it mentions in particular that there was a talk radio host in Los Angeles who was winning in his time slot.
[01:03:45.510 --> 01:03:49.670]  [SPEAKER_20]: He was one of the very few liberals on the air.
[01:03:50.010 --> 01:03:58.030]  [SPEAKER_20]: He apparently, every so often, he would, he would, the station would get annoying calls from the sponsors.
[01:03:58.350 --> 01:04:01.810]  [SPEAKER_20]: And eventually the station pulled him off the air, put on Daryl Gates.
[01:04:02.050 --> 01:04:03.350]  [SPEAKER_20]: Daryl Gates, if you remember it.
[01:04:03.610 --> 01:04:04.850]  [SPEAKER_20]: Yes, Mr. LAPD.
[01:04:05.350 --> 01:04:06.050]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's incredible.
[01:04:06.450 --> 01:04:07.890]  [SPEAKER_25]: They put him on instead.
[01:04:08.330 --> 01:04:14.930]  [SPEAKER_25]: When I was driving across Texas in January, I was listening to the AM radio, and I actually heard a station out of Denver.
[01:04:14.930 --> 01:04:22.650]  [SPEAKER_25]: I think it was the same station that inspired talk radio, you know, that had the talk show host that got murdered.
[01:04:23.630 --> 01:04:24.410]  [SPEAKER_16]: In Denver.
[01:04:24.610 --> 01:04:30.750]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah, and I heard this surprisingly liberal talk show host on the AM radio, on a clear channel station.
[01:04:30.750 --> 01:04:37.810]  [SPEAKER_25]: And it was, it was, it was something to hear, you know, something to hear a voice of sanity out there in all this craziness.
[01:04:37.810 --> 01:04:42.870]  [SPEAKER_25]: Because he was talking about the referendum in Colorado concerning homosexuals.
[01:04:43.510 --> 01:04:48.730]  [SPEAKER_25]: And that was something that you would expect there'd be a lot of, you know, kind of redneck talk against.
[01:04:49.230 --> 01:04:49.950]  [SPEAKER_25]: And there was.
[01:04:50.030 --> 01:04:53.390]  [SPEAKER_25]: All his callers, a lot of his callers were, you know, ready to string him up.
[01:04:53.470 --> 01:04:56.110]  [SPEAKER_25]: But he was one of the people that was standing up for his principles.
[01:04:56.250 --> 01:04:59.370]  [SPEAKER_25]: And you've got to admire that when people stand up for their principles, even if you don't agree with them.
[01:04:59.450 --> 01:05:01.910]  [SPEAKER_25]: And I know a lot of people don't agree with what they hear on WBAI.
[01:05:02.110 --> 01:05:02.810]  [SPEAKER_25]: I know that.
[01:05:02.810 --> 01:05:03.650]  [SPEAKER_25]: I hear it all the time.
[01:05:03.650 --> 01:05:06.710]  [SPEAKER_25]: But, in fact, people still think we're a communist radio station.
[01:05:06.730 --> 01:05:07.210]  [SPEAKER_25]: But we're not.
[01:05:07.770 --> 01:05:09.490]  [SPEAKER_25]: We're a voice of alternatives.
[01:05:09.750 --> 01:05:13.790]  [SPEAKER_25]: And, you know, all kinds of strange people are alternative voices.
[01:05:13.970 --> 01:05:14.770]  [SPEAKER_25]: And that's what we are.
[01:05:15.150 --> 01:05:16.790]  [SPEAKER_20]: And just one more point.
[01:05:17.010 --> 01:05:21.210]  [SPEAKER_20]: That another program that I engineer is the Gay Show.
[01:05:21.450 --> 01:05:25.250]  [SPEAKER_20]: And a couple weeks ago, they never did this before.
[01:05:25.250 --> 01:05:26.750]  [SPEAKER_20]: They took calls on the air.
[01:05:26.890 --> 01:05:30.970]  [SPEAKER_20]: And calls here are uniformly unscreened.
[01:05:31.070 --> 01:05:32.850]  [SPEAKER_20]: So you call, you get on the air.
[01:05:32.850 --> 01:05:35.650]  [SPEAKER_20]: And they were very thoughtful calls.
[01:05:35.830 --> 01:05:36.450]  [SPEAKER_20]: There was...
[01:05:36.450 --> 01:05:46.290]  [SPEAKER_20]: The first caller wished death to some totally irrelevant host of another program on WBAI.
[01:05:46.370 --> 01:05:47.250]  [SPEAKER_20]: But that was it.
[01:05:47.450 --> 01:06:03.290]  [SPEAKER_20]: And on any other radio station, if you had a gay show with gay hosts talking about those issues, they would get the beeper, however they do their screening of their...
[01:06:03.290 --> 01:06:04.170]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah, the sensor.
[01:06:04.410 --> 01:06:05.270]  [SPEAKER_20]: The sensor, right.
[01:06:05.790 --> 01:06:07.030]  [SPEAKER_20]: It would have been used.
[01:06:07.450 --> 01:06:09.590]  [SPEAKER_20]: Half of the calls would not have been there.
[01:06:09.730 --> 01:06:09.950]  [SPEAKER_20]: Uh-huh.
[01:06:10.490 --> 01:06:21.270]  [SPEAKER_20]: And on this station, not only is what you hear of value, you're helping not only to inform yourselves, but inform other people of like mind.
[01:06:21.790 --> 01:06:23.110]  [SPEAKER_25]: All right, so we're going to keep in mind.
[01:06:23.250 --> 01:06:24.810]  [SPEAKER_25]: 212-279-3400.
[01:06:24.970 --> 01:06:30.830]  [SPEAKER_25]: This is really your last chance as we're going to be going into the rebroadcast of the evening news in a couple of minutes.
[01:06:31.550 --> 01:06:45.870]  [SPEAKER_25]: So if you want to take advantage of that special $75 deal where you'll get a full year of 2600 magazine and a t-shirt on top of that, as well as being a member of WBAI for a full year and getting the folio every month, now's the time to call.
[01:06:46.030 --> 01:06:47.710]  [SPEAKER_25]: 212-279-3400.
[01:06:47.970 --> 01:06:48.990]  [SPEAKER_25]: And support freedom of speech.
[01:06:49.150 --> 01:06:50.350]  [SPEAKER_25]: Support alternative views.
[01:06:50.530 --> 01:06:51.390]  [SPEAKER_25]: Support off the hook.
[01:06:51.950 --> 01:06:55.230]  [SPEAKER_25]: And keep us going for another year at least.
[01:06:55.470 --> 01:06:57.350]  [SPEAKER_25]: I mean, we're going to be here a while, I think.
[01:06:57.610 --> 01:06:59.870]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, it's never guaranteed.
[01:07:00.070 --> 01:07:00.790]  [SPEAKER_20]: It's quite amazing.
[01:07:00.930 --> 01:07:03.170]  [SPEAKER_20]: It's been over 30 years now, but it's not guaranteed.
[01:07:03.170 --> 01:07:10.090]  [SPEAKER_25]: And, you know, I hear those naysayers that say, you know, we should sell this frequency because we're right in the middle of the FM dial.
[01:07:10.250 --> 01:07:12.610]  [SPEAKER_25]: We're not down there at the non-commercial section.
[01:07:12.730 --> 01:07:13.390]  [SPEAKER_25]: We're in the middle.
[01:07:13.530 --> 01:07:14.350]  [SPEAKER_25]: We're on Main Street.
[01:07:14.510 --> 01:07:15.850]  [SPEAKER_25]: 99.5 FM.
[01:07:15.970 --> 01:07:16.470]  [SPEAKER_25]: We're in the middle.
[01:07:16.970 --> 01:07:19.470]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now, that frequency is worth millions of dollars.
[01:07:19.470 --> 01:07:31.830]  [SPEAKER_25]: We could just sell it and, you know, make a tidy profit and then move to a less desirable frequency with less power down at the bottom of the dial where all the other, the non-commercial ghetto, you know, we could move down there with everybody else.
[01:07:31.830 --> 01:07:34.430]  [SPEAKER_25]: And that would suit the commercial world just fine.
[01:07:34.590 --> 01:07:39.330]  [SPEAKER_25]: But having us here in the middle of the commercial spectrum is kind of a thorn in their side.
[01:07:39.510 --> 01:07:44.850]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, as a matter of fact, you know, of the Pacifica stations, I believe there are six of them.
[01:07:44.970 --> 01:07:49.070]  [SPEAKER_20]: There's Washington, L.A., Berkeley, Houston.
[01:07:50.930 --> 01:07:54.930]  [SPEAKER_20]: All of them are down there in that ghetto you're talking about, except one.
[01:07:55.410 --> 01:07:57.810]  [SPEAKER_25]: There's nothing really wrong with the ghetto down there.
[01:07:57.810 --> 01:08:05.890]  [SPEAKER_25]: But I'm just saying it's good to have, you know, entities outside the ghetto as well, you know, so that you can hit people from all different angles.
[01:08:06.370 --> 01:08:08.530]  [SPEAKER_25]: We're right here in the middle of Park Avenue.
[01:08:08.610 --> 01:08:11.110]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's not where we are, but I'm just drawing an analogy here.
[01:08:11.230 --> 01:08:16.230]  [SPEAKER_25]: You know, we're in Park Avenue, 99.5 FM is kind of the Park Avenue of the radio airwaves.
[01:08:16.490 --> 01:08:22.650]  [SPEAKER_25]: And here we are, and we're able to spout our various forms of rhetoric, and yours too, because you can call us up and be on the air.
[01:08:22.650 --> 01:08:28.530]  [SPEAKER_25]: And, you know, all these people on their way between K-Rock and KISS and N.E.W.
[01:08:28.550 --> 01:08:35.330]  [SPEAKER_25]: and all these other crazy stations that just, you know, do the same thing pretty much, they sometimes stumble and find us.
[01:08:35.530 --> 01:08:37.890]  [SPEAKER_25]: And sometimes they can't turn their radio dial.
[01:08:38.010 --> 01:08:38.530]  [SPEAKER_25]: They're stuck.
[01:08:38.950 --> 01:08:43.770]  [SPEAKER_20]: And we're stuck at $300, and it would seem to me that if somebody...
[01:08:43.770 --> 01:08:47.250]  [SPEAKER_25]: I didn't want you to say how much we made because it's so embarrassingly low.
[01:08:47.250 --> 01:08:54.610]  [SPEAKER_20]: But if somebody would pledge $60, it would give us a dollar for every degree of a circle, make it full circle.
[01:08:55.470 --> 01:08:57.170]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah, I guess that's one way of looking at it.
[01:08:57.290 --> 01:09:00.130]  [SPEAKER_25]: But anyway, let's just give out the phone number one more time.
[01:09:00.130 --> 01:09:03.070]  [SPEAKER_25]: We're going to wrap this up with our guest from Houston.
[01:09:04.030 --> 01:09:05.510]  [SPEAKER_25]: 212-279-3400.
[01:09:05.730 --> 01:09:09.690]  [SPEAKER_25]: It would be so nice to see the phone lines light up one more time because this is it for us.
[01:09:09.790 --> 01:09:13.990]  [SPEAKER_25]: We're out of here, and we won't be back again until after the marathon is over.
[01:09:14.370 --> 01:09:16.010]  [SPEAKER_25]: 212-279-3400.
[01:09:16.010 --> 01:09:19.310]  [SPEAKER_25]: If you're driving in your car, just pull over at a payphone.
[01:09:19.510 --> 01:09:23.650]  [SPEAKER_25]: You can dial us at a payphone, and we take Visa, we take MasterCard.
[01:09:23.750 --> 01:09:29.010]  [SPEAKER_25]: So you don't have to fumble for anything except those magic numbers that mean so much to you.
[01:09:29.150 --> 01:09:30.210]  [SPEAKER_25]: Visa, MasterCard, whichever.
[01:09:31.370 --> 01:09:32.830]  [SPEAKER_25]: 212-279-3400.
[01:09:33.050 --> 01:09:35.730]  [SPEAKER_25]: You can call us collect, as we proved before, but you can call us.
[01:09:36.310 --> 01:09:38.650]  [SPEAKER_25]: You can call us, you know, and you can tell others to call us.
[01:09:38.830 --> 01:09:39.810]  [SPEAKER_20]: 212-279-3400.
[01:09:39.950 --> 01:09:40.250]  [SPEAKER_20]: All right.
[01:09:40.290 --> 01:09:41.110]  [SPEAKER_20]: Do a manual favor.
[01:09:41.490 --> 01:09:42.750]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah, and you'll feel good about it, too.
[01:09:42.830 --> 01:09:45.570]  [SPEAKER_25]: You'll feel like you're actually doing something, you know?
[01:09:45.570 --> 01:09:48.110]  [SPEAKER_25]: And that makes a difference when you feel like you're actually accomplishing something.
[01:09:48.330 --> 01:09:57.090]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now, speaking of accomplishing something, we have still on the line James Henderson, who has been thrown out of school in Houston, Texas, for printing out a file on a computer system.
[01:09:57.110 --> 01:10:00.510]  [SPEAKER_25]: We have his lawyer, Steve Ryan, and his friend, Avajit Ghosh.
[01:10:01.590 --> 01:10:04.450]  [SPEAKER_25]: Is there some way that people in New York can help?
[01:10:04.450 --> 01:10:06.650]  [SPEAKER_25]: I guess I should ask Steve this more than anybody.
[01:10:07.330 --> 01:10:15.530]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yes, I'd say one of the first steps that you should take is to, if you're of like mind and want to protest injustices like this, is to join the Electronic Frontier Foundation.
[01:10:16.210 --> 01:10:16.930]  [SPEAKER_25]: Good idea.
[01:10:17.010 --> 01:10:17.710]  [SPEAKER_25]: How can they do that?
[01:10:18.170 --> 01:10:26.350]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, they can contact the Electronic Frontier Foundation in Washington, D.C., or they frequently advertise over the net.
[01:10:26.350 --> 01:10:29.870]  [SPEAKER_08]: You can access their membership forms over the net, or write to them.
[01:10:30.430 --> 01:10:32.990]  [SPEAKER_08]: And I think I have the information here at hand.
[01:10:33.230 --> 01:10:47.130]  [SPEAKER_08]: If someone cared to write, the address is the Electronic Frontier Foundation, 666 Pennsylvania Avenue, Southeast, Suite 303, Washington, D.C., 20003.
[01:10:47.550 --> 01:10:49.650]  [SPEAKER_25]: They got that 666 number after all.
[01:10:49.830 --> 01:10:51.090]  [SPEAKER_08]: I was impressed by that.
[01:10:51.530 --> 01:10:58.430]  [SPEAKER_25]: That goes to show, you know, that groups like this aren't afraid of, you know, of fundamentalism or anything like that.
[01:10:59.350 --> 01:11:04.290]  [SPEAKER_08]: No, no, and they hope to make a positive change and erase some of these outrages.
[01:11:04.390 --> 01:11:07.730]  [SPEAKER_08]: We've got to move into the 21st century here, and these folks just aren't helping.
[01:11:07.910 --> 01:11:10.950]  [SPEAKER_08]: They're holding back the development of their students with policies like this.
[01:11:11.090 --> 01:11:12.270]  [SPEAKER_08]: They're punishing people unjustly.
[01:11:12.710 --> 01:11:15.190]  [SPEAKER_08]: And the rules they're making just don't fit the situation.
[01:11:15.850 --> 01:11:25.970]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, now, if anybody is out there that has Internet access, is there any particular address they should write to for more information or to send helpful hints or anything like that?
[01:11:26.110 --> 01:11:26.590]  [SPEAKER_08]: Of course.
[01:11:26.610 --> 01:11:31.410]  [SPEAKER_08]: You can send mail to EFF at sign EFF.org.
[01:11:32.390 --> 01:11:35.210]  [SPEAKER_08]: And that's EFF at EFF.org.
[01:11:35.390 --> 01:11:36.770]  [SPEAKER_08]: And all mail there will be answered.
[01:11:36.990 --> 01:11:39.030]  [SPEAKER_08]: They'll be glad to send you an electronic membership form.
[01:11:39.030 --> 01:11:46.270]  [SPEAKER_08]: Annual membership is $40 per year, $25 for students, much like membership in WBAI.
[01:11:46.410 --> 01:11:47.130]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's true.
[01:11:47.630 --> 01:11:49.530]  [SPEAKER_08]: And it's quite a desirable thing.
[01:11:49.650 --> 01:11:54.770]  [SPEAKER_08]: There's also some local groups scattered throughout the nation that have varying degrees of affiliation with EFF.
[01:11:55.250 --> 01:12:00.390]  [SPEAKER_08]: And we'd encourage people to join those local groups which are concerned with these identical issues.
[01:12:01.010 --> 01:12:04.830]  [SPEAKER_08]: And through the power of organization, we can turn some of these things back.
[01:12:04.830 --> 01:12:14.790]  [SPEAKER_08]: One of the key aspects of the Steve Jackson case is I don't believe that win would have been possible without the outpouring of public support poured through the EFF in support of Mr. Jackson.
[01:12:15.670 --> 01:12:20.350]  [SPEAKER_08]: As you may know, the EFF was a substantial financial supporter of that litigation.
[01:12:21.370 --> 01:12:27.650]  [SPEAKER_08]: And even when they don't give financial support or they're not able to, they still deliver organizational and resource support.
[01:12:28.070 --> 01:12:31.850]  [SPEAKER_25]: So it's important to have a group like that around just as it's important to have a station like this around.
[01:12:32.250 --> 01:12:32.650]  [SPEAKER_08]: Absolutely.
[01:12:32.650 --> 01:12:33.750]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's the only alternative.
[01:12:34.290 --> 01:12:40.650]  [SPEAKER_08]: Mr. Henderson is in a position where he does not have access to a whole lot of legal counsel.
[01:12:41.070 --> 01:12:43.010]  [SPEAKER_08]: His case could easily go unnoticed.
[01:12:43.050 --> 01:12:50.370]  [SPEAKER_08]: And he would just have to suffer the consequences of whatever these people wanted to do to him without regard to his contractual or constitutional rights.
[01:12:50.550 --> 01:12:52.210]  [SPEAKER_08]: He's been deprived of due process.
[01:12:52.550 --> 01:12:55.170]  [SPEAKER_08]: He's had his accounts taken away without justification.
[01:12:55.890 --> 01:13:02.990]  [SPEAKER_08]: And the allegation, by the way, that he misused the computer in any way by continuing to use an account that was granted to him by the university is just a name.
[01:13:03.250 --> 01:13:06.110]  [SPEAKER_25]: And more importantly, though, besides losing the account, he's lost his education.
[01:13:06.270 --> 01:13:07.190]  [SPEAKER_25]: He's been kicked out of school.
[01:13:07.430 --> 01:13:07.750]  [SPEAKER_08]: Absolutely.
[01:13:07.750 --> 01:13:11.470]  [SPEAKER_08]: And this is a black mark on his disciplinary record until removed.
[01:13:11.990 --> 01:13:14.670]  [SPEAKER_08]: He's been denied a contractual right, something that he's paid for.
[01:13:15.190 --> 01:13:17.450]  [SPEAKER_08]: And his wife has been very seriously affected.
[01:13:17.570 --> 01:13:18.550]  [SPEAKER_08]: This is a serious case.
[01:13:19.090 --> 01:13:23.310]  [SPEAKER_08]: This is not a case of some just trivial administrative action.
[01:13:24.050 --> 01:13:28.950]  [SPEAKER_08]: This is the type of case that can and will, if necessary, be redressed in the district courts of the state.
[01:13:28.950 --> 01:13:31.130]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, this is something we're certainly going to be following over the weeks.
[01:13:31.690 --> 01:13:39.190]  [SPEAKER_25]: James or Avigee, is there any email address you want to give out or anything that you think folks should do in a different way we haven't already mentioned?
[01:13:40.170 --> 01:13:40.570]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah.
[01:13:41.470 --> 01:13:42.270]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, okay.
[01:13:42.530 --> 01:13:43.270]  [SPEAKER_14]: Go ahead, Casey.
[01:13:43.950 --> 01:13:44.810]  [SPEAKER_07]: I'll leave it to you.
[01:13:46.030 --> 01:13:46.750]  [SPEAKER_07]: You're the one.
[01:13:47.010 --> 01:13:48.250]  [SPEAKER_07]: Do you want to give out your email?
[01:13:48.570 --> 01:13:49.130]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, sure.
[01:13:50.090 --> 01:13:55.490]  [SPEAKER_14]: Y'all can contact me at ST10RT at JetsonUHEDU.
[01:13:55.490 --> 01:14:13.970]  [SPEAKER_14]: And I'd like to say that I think this case really exemplifies how important networks that, you know, really promote freedom of discussion and information like the Internet and like really Pacifica, how important they are, because that's really made all the difference.
[01:14:14.810 --> 01:14:16.210]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's well said.
[01:14:16.370 --> 01:14:19.010]  [SPEAKER_25]: Let's just give out that address one more time for people that might not have written it down.
[01:14:19.170 --> 01:14:21.030]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's ST102, 102?
[01:14:21.970 --> 01:14:22.490]  [SPEAKER_14]: 10T.
[01:14:22.950 --> 01:14:23.810]  [SPEAKER_25]: Oh, 10T.
[01:14:24.970 --> 01:14:25.850]  [SPEAKER_14]: At Jetson.
[01:14:26.390 --> 01:14:27.970]  [SPEAKER_25]: Jetson, J-E-T-S-O-N.
[01:14:28.570 --> 01:14:28.790]  [SPEAKER_14]: Uh-huh.
[01:14:29.010 --> 01:14:29.510]  [SPEAKER_14]: U-H.
[01:14:30.230 --> 01:14:30.890]  [SPEAKER_25]: Dot U-H?
[01:14:31.050 --> 01:14:31.390]  [SPEAKER_14]: Uh-huh.
[01:14:31.790 --> 01:14:33.090]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, University of Houston.
[01:14:33.370 --> 01:14:34.390]  [SPEAKER_14]: Dot E-D-U.
[01:14:34.610 --> 01:14:35.270]  [SPEAKER_25]: Dot E-D-U.
[01:14:35.350 --> 01:14:39.990]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, so once again, it's ST10T at Jetson.UH.EDU.
[01:14:40.150 --> 01:14:40.370]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah.
[01:14:40.510 --> 01:14:49.930]  [SPEAKER_25]: And Jetson is one of the machines they were mentioning in the memo, saying that Mr. Henderson had done something horrible like run IRC or run a mud on it.
[01:14:50.130 --> 01:14:51.850]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, that's their ancient VAX machine.
[01:14:51.850 --> 01:14:52.550]  [SPEAKER_07]: It runs VMS.
[01:14:53.010 --> 01:14:53.310]  [SPEAKER_25]: Uh-huh.
[01:14:53.850 --> 01:14:57.930]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, with a friendly username like ST10T, I guess that would indicate that.
[01:14:58.270 --> 01:15:01.110]  [SPEAKER_25]: All right, I want to thank you very much for being on the program and wish you the best of luck.
[01:15:01.190 --> 01:15:02.810]  [SPEAKER_25]: We'll probably be talking to you again at some point.
[01:15:03.370 --> 01:15:03.710]  [SPEAKER_25]: All right.
[01:15:03.730 --> 01:15:04.150]  [SPEAKER_25]: Thank you.
[01:15:04.390 --> 01:15:04.710]  [SPEAKER_25]: All right.
[01:15:04.810 --> 01:15:05.530]  [SPEAKER_25]: Keep us updated.
[01:15:05.690 --> 01:15:06.050]  [SPEAKER_25]: Good luck.
[01:15:06.170 --> 01:15:06.590]  [SPEAKER_25]: Hang in there.
[01:15:06.650 --> 01:15:07.390]  [SPEAKER_25]: You have friends here.
[01:15:07.850 --> 01:15:08.150]  [SPEAKER_25]: Sure.
[01:15:08.150 --> 01:15:08.870]  [SPEAKER_25]: Thank you.
[01:15:09.910 --> 01:15:16.330]  [SPEAKER_25]: And that's the story of someone in Houston, Texas being thrown out of school for printing out a computer file.
[01:15:16.610 --> 01:15:20.830]  [SPEAKER_25]: It never ceases to amaze me with the kind of things that ignorance is capable of.
[01:15:21.710 --> 01:15:23.170]  [SPEAKER_25]: But then again, it shouldn't.
[01:15:23.170 --> 01:15:24.290]  [SPEAKER_25]: It shouldn't amaze me anymore.
[01:15:24.410 --> 01:15:25.410]  [SPEAKER_25]: You know, I've seen so much of it.
[01:15:25.410 --> 01:15:30.950]  [SPEAKER_25]: But we'll keep you updated on that particular horror story in the weeks ahead.
[01:15:31.510 --> 01:15:33.750]  [SPEAKER_25]: In the meantime, stay tuned for the evening news.
[01:15:33.910 --> 01:15:35.530]  [SPEAKER_25]: We're rebroadcasting it in a couple of minutes.
[01:15:35.890 --> 01:15:37.150]  [SPEAKER_25]: Robert Knight will be on later on.
[01:15:37.670 --> 01:15:41.450]  [SPEAKER_25]: If you have not called, this is really the last time I'm going to ask.
[01:15:42.990 --> 01:15:44.890]  [SPEAKER_25]: 212-279-3400.
[01:15:45.090 --> 01:15:46.990]  [SPEAKER_25]: Show your support for freedom of speech.
[01:15:47.530 --> 01:15:48.970]  [SPEAKER_25]: Show your support for Off the Hook.
[01:15:49.690 --> 01:15:52.890]  [SPEAKER_25]: Show your support for WBAI New York.
[01:15:53.890 --> 01:15:54.910]  [SPEAKER_25]: This has been Off the Hook.
[01:15:55.090 --> 01:15:56.650]  [SPEAKER_25]: We'll be back again next week.
[01:15:56.830 --> 01:15:58.730]  [SPEAKER_25]: Emmanuel Goldstein saying good night.
[01:16:06.070 --> 01:16:09.770]  [SPEAKER_23]: Telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
[01:16:10.630 --> 01:16:15.210]  [SPEAKER_23]: I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a call.
[01:16:16.130 --> 01:16:18.010]  [SPEAKER_23]: It couldn't get much worse.
[01:16:20.750 --> 01:16:23.370]  [SPEAKER_15]: Pondigli bon for the best, expect the worst.
[01:16:24.030 --> 01:16:25.850]  [SPEAKER_15]: I hope that's understood.
[01:16:26.250 --> 01:16:26.870]  [SPEAKER_15]: Pondigli bon!
[01:16:51.880 --> 01:16:52.860]  [SPEAKER_00]: Good evening.
[01:16:53.200 --> 01:16:59.920]  [SPEAKER_00]: In the news tonight, to whom do federal employees complain when the one doing the sexual harassment is their boss?
[01:16:59.920 --> 01:17:04.060]  [SPEAKER_00]: A sailor apologizes for beating his gay shipmate to death.
[01:17:04.320 --> 01:17:07.280]  [SPEAKER_00]: And an update on the executive coup in Guatemala.
[01:17:07.620 --> 01:17:12.900]  [SPEAKER_00]: With these and other stories, I'm Laura Seidel in New York with Verna Avery Brown in Washington.
[01:17:12.960 --> 01:17:17.000]  [SPEAKER_00]: And this is the news for Wednesday, May 26th, 1993.
[01:17:17.000 --> 01:17:20.480]  [SPEAKER_00]: First, to Washington with these top stories.
[01:17:20.700 --> 01:17:26.520]  [SPEAKER_01]: President Clinton's reportedly seeking a deal with conservative Democrats to get his deficit reduction package passed.
[01:17:26.720 --> 01:17:31.220]  [SPEAKER_01]: The compromise may involve annual spending caps on programs such as Medicare.
[01:17:31.720 --> 01:17:35.920]  [SPEAKER_01]: Clinton has expressed confidence that the BTU, or energy tax, will pass.
[01:17:36.460 --> 01:17:42.860]  [SPEAKER_01]: White House Communications Director George Stephanopoulos refused to be specific about any compromise, but also sees victory.
[01:17:43.180 --> 01:17:50.120]  [SPEAKER_26]: We hope we will get a deal fairly soon and lock up, lock up some more votes, and then move on to a victory tomorrow.
[01:17:50.280 --> 01:17:51.800]  [SPEAKER_26]: We're trying to get it done as quickly as we can.
[01:17:52.400 --> 01:17:58.380]  [SPEAKER_01]: Minority Whip Newt Gingrich, Republican from Georgia, says the White House is twisting the arms of both Democrats and Republicans.
[01:17:58.380 --> 01:18:06.080]  [SPEAKER_27]: I think it will be very close, and I think as of right now they don't have the votes, so it's going to be a very interesting 36 hours.
[01:18:06.280 --> 01:18:11.080]  [SPEAKER_01]: The House vote on Clinton's five-year, $340 billion package is expected tomorrow.
[01:18:11.440 --> 01:18:19.040]  [SPEAKER_01]: The German parliament is on the verge of approving an historical change to the Constitution that will drastically restrict the right to political asylum.
[01:18:19.420 --> 01:18:26.020]  [SPEAKER_01]: Alexa DeVorsin reports from Bonn that about 10,000 demonstrators gathered outside the parliament to protest the move.
[01:18:26.020 --> 01:18:32.100]  [SPEAKER_17]: Police security was tight as demonstrators held a vigil that began last night and lasted most of the day.
[01:18:32.400 --> 01:18:40.840]  [SPEAKER_17]: This morning, protesters tried to block politicians from entering the parliament and casting their votes in a climactic decision that ends years of bitter controversy.
[01:18:41.260 --> 01:18:51.540]  [SPEAKER_17]: During more than 12 hours of debate today, speaker after speaker told of the necessity to stem the flow of asylum seekers arriving in Germany, which numbered nearly 450,000 last year.
[01:18:51.540 --> 01:19:00.020]  [SPEAKER_17]: The change to Article 16 of the Constitution will allow Germany to effectively turn back refugees at the border when they enter through any neighboring country.
[01:19:00.940 --> 01:19:01.620]  [SPEAKER_17]: Migrancy...
[01:19:01.620 --> 01:19:02.160]  ...