Off The Hook - 1993-06-16

[00:04.150 --> 00:06.210]  [SPEAKER_04]: All mixed up with Peter Boatian.
[00:06.470 --> 00:09.570]  [SPEAKER_04]: Monday mornings at 9.30, here on WBAI.
[00:15.750 --> 00:19.650]  [SPEAKER_21]: And this is at 10 o'clock, WBAI New York.
[00:19.870 --> 00:23.490]  [SPEAKER_21]: Next up is going to be Off the Hook with Emmanuel Goldstein.
[00:23.730 --> 00:25.070]  [SPEAKER_21]: Hey, let's hear another message.
[00:25.770 --> 00:33.690]  [SPEAKER_02]: If you will just look to your left, you will observe a troop of them marching at this moment across the petals of that giant daisy.
[00:34.370 --> 00:37.850]  [SPEAKER_02]: Itself a tropic monster, as big as an oak tree.
[00:38.630 --> 00:39.210]  [SPEAKER_02]: Willikers!
[00:39.710 --> 00:40.870]  [SPEAKER_02]: Giant ants!
[00:41.150 --> 00:42.670]  [SPEAKER_02]: What a wonderland!
[00:42.950 --> 00:47.550]  [SPEAKER_02]: Not to mention the more common sorts of leopards and jaguars.
[00:47.750 --> 00:49.070]  [SPEAKER_02]: You mean like that one over your head?
[00:49.230 --> 00:49.590]  [SPEAKER_02]: What?
[00:50.150 --> 00:50.970]  [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, my.
[01:02.450 --> 01:07.950]  [SPEAKER_26]: Environmental mayhem in the rainforest on this Saturday's WBAI Radio Theater.
[01:08.330 --> 01:09.950]  [SPEAKER_26]: I'm your host, Joe Bevilacqua.
[01:10.250 --> 01:15.510]  [SPEAKER_26]: Join me for episode three of my absurdist radio cartoon series, Willoughby and the Professor.
[01:15.510 --> 01:23.110]  [SPEAKER_26]: That's this Saturday, June 19th at 6.30pm on WBAI 99.5 FM.
[01:26.010 --> 01:27.690]  [SPEAKER_19]: And it's 10.01.
[01:28.290 --> 01:29.770]  [SPEAKER_19]: Time for Off the Hook.
[01:35.800 --> 01:57.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: The telephone keeps ringing So I ripped it off the wall I cut myself while shaving Now I can't make a cough It couldn't get much worse Bum diddly bum for the best, expect the worst I hope that's understood Bum diddly bum!
[02:16.730 --> 02:17.850]  [SPEAKER_19]: Good evening, everybody.
[02:17.870 --> 02:42.710]  [SPEAKER_19]: This is Emmanuel Goldstein And the program is Off the Hook And boy, you don't know how close this show came to never being Five minutes ago, I think I was in the battery tunnel And, you know, it seems every now and then You just cut it really, really close And you have to be someplace In an impossible period of time And you just know you can never make it But somehow you do it anyway Well,
[02:42.810 --> 03:06.090]  [SPEAKER_19]: I'm sorry to all the people that I cut off on the way over here But, you know, there's a lot of people that need a weekly fix A daily fix would be nice But a weekly fix of technological happenings And a way to spout off When the phone company rips you off And when other nasty things happen Thanks to Big Brother or High Tech Or Low Intelligence or whatever One of those three things But,
[03:06.150 --> 03:23.490]  [SPEAKER_19]: you know, part of the reason that I was so frenzied on my way over here Was because of computer problems I know I said that last time when I was late Because of a computer-operated traffic light that malfunctioned And people didn't realize it They were sitting there in traffic and not moving When obviously they had every right to move You know,
[03:23.550 --> 03:41.990]  [SPEAKER_19]: obviously when a light to a main intersection Is red for, say, two minutes And green for about three seconds And a side street gets the green light all the rest of the time You know something's wrong with that And you sort of, you know, have to take matters into your own hands Sometimes that's necessary Well,
[03:42.030 --> 04:03.950]  [SPEAKER_19]: that's what happened the last time I went through this But this time, this time it was I guess it was entirely my fault Because, you know, I guess I should have planned it out better But there were just too many things to do Too many things But it did involve high tech In that one of the things I had to do was drop a computer off At the house of somebody who is an expert in these things Because
[04:03.950 --> 04:30.150]  [SPEAKER_19]: after a while Yes, even the host of Off the Hook cannot figure it out We upgraded a Macintosh Upgrading a Macintosh is usually a pleasant thing You know, it's supposed to be something nice You get new features, new software Things go faster Things are better You're closer to the beautiful people You're accepted And for the first time in your life You feel like you can get something done Well,
[04:30.190 --> 04:57.870]  [SPEAKER_19]: that's not how it works That's not how it works with Macintosh Because every time you upgrade Something doesn't work The system crashes in new and different ways And in this particular case Nothing Of any worth Would work on this computer So, obviously we had to take drastic measures And truck the thing in But by doing that And getting caught in traffic And getting lost a few times And having
[04:57.870 --> 05:19.810]  [SPEAKER_19]: people beeping you Oh my Oh boy, that's a blast from the past Well, apart from that All these things getting in the way And people getting in front of you And driving slowly You know Because they know you're in a hurry And then you switch around And then all of a sudden There's construction in that lane And then potholes And,
[05:20.210 --> 05:47.030]  [SPEAKER_19]: well, I don't have to go into this Because I just went through this But Fortunately, things worked out somehow I prayed to some entity And somehow I blinked and I was here It doesn't happen often like this Okay, this is off the hook We're here We've got a brand new issue of 2600 Magazine Which also added to a bit of the frenzy That has been going on in the last few days If you've been trying to
[05:47.030 --> 06:13.570]  [SPEAKER_19]: reach anybody over at the magazine Finding you can't do so Well, that's one of the reasons The new issue is the summer 1993 issue And it's probably I don't know, I'd say this is one of the better ones We have an article on the 5ESS Which is an electronic switching system Which a lot of you have out there It's a digital switch And all kinds of technical Technical explanations as to what goes on And
[06:13.570 --> 06:22.850]  [SPEAKER_19]: why and how And all that kind of thing An article about the British credit system You think TRW, TransUnion, Equifax, you think that's all there is?
[06:22.930 --> 06:24.030]  [SPEAKER_19]: No, there's more.
[06:24.690 --> 06:27.230]  [SPEAKER_19]: Every country has something and England is no exception.
[06:27.510 --> 06:31.290]  [SPEAKER_19]: There's an article on how to hack your high school, your high school computer, that is.
[06:32.950 --> 06:36.290]  [SPEAKER_19]: A product review of a DTMF decoder.
[06:36.770 --> 06:41.390]  [SPEAKER_19]: Useful device that will tell you the digits that are being dialed if somebody enters touchstones.
[06:42.310 --> 06:45.570]  [SPEAKER_19]: A couple of different opinions on how to have a meeting.
[06:45.970 --> 06:50.790]  [SPEAKER_19]: How to have a 2600 meeting in various parts of the world.
[06:50.990 --> 06:54.510]  [SPEAKER_19]: As you know, we've had some trouble with authorities at some of them.
[06:54.990 --> 06:57.230]  [SPEAKER_19]: The people haven't misbehaved, the authorities have.
[06:57.730 --> 07:05.030]  [SPEAKER_19]: And this is a couple of different, very different viewpoints as to how that should work in the future.
[07:06.250 --> 07:12.150]  [SPEAKER_19]: We also have a continuation of the last issue of the acronym list.
[07:13.670 --> 07:21.850]  [SPEAKER_19]: First time we did this, we made it A through G, and now we were supposed to go H through Z, but unfortunately we only made it to R.
[07:21.850 --> 07:37.670]  [SPEAKER_19]: So, H to R, such things as KSR, which is Keyboard, Send, Receive, MAS, Mass Announcement System, MTP, Message Transfer Part, R slash W, Read, Write, obvious things like that.
[07:38.010 --> 07:42.650]  [SPEAKER_19]: So you can impress people at parties with the knowledge that you'll get from these acronyms.
[07:43.510 --> 07:47.830]  [SPEAKER_19]: Letters to the Editor, which is almost as popular as phone calls to WBAI.
[07:48.090 --> 07:49.070]  [SPEAKER_19]: Same kind of thing.
[07:49.790 --> 07:53.930]  [SPEAKER_19]: Then we have probably the most interesting part of the issue.
[07:54.150 --> 08:01.150]  [SPEAKER_19]: We mentioned on this program a few weeks ago how AT&T was upset at us for printing information.
[08:02.170 --> 08:07.430]  [SPEAKER_19]: The information they were upset at us for printing was a list of where their offices were located.
[08:08.230 --> 08:15.830]  [SPEAKER_19]: And they sent us a nasty letter saying if we ever did that again, the full weight of God and everybody else they own will fall down upon us.
[08:15.830 --> 08:25.610]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, that letter is printed in its entirety, as we always do when we get these kinds of letters, as well as a couple of words of our own, which I might as well read here on the air.
[08:26.330 --> 08:29.610]  [SPEAKER_19]: They just never stop trying to intimidate us with these ridiculous letters.
[08:29.750 --> 08:35.250]  [SPEAKER_19]: What AT&T seems to believe is that a list of where their offices are constitutes proprietary information.
[08:35.770 --> 08:41.770]  [SPEAKER_19]: This kind of absurdity may work within AT&T's hallowed halls, but we're trying to exist in the real world.
[08:41.770 --> 08:45.190]  [SPEAKER_19]: The good folks at AT&T should consider joining us there someday.
[08:45.430 --> 08:56.030]  [SPEAKER_19]: Until they do, they should take note that their threats will only serve to embarrass them, and that further threats or attempts to prevent us from printing information will be met with strong legal action.
[08:57.330 --> 09:03.010]  [SPEAKER_19]: With this in mind, we'd like to dedicate the next few pages to AT&T.
[09:04.010 --> 09:10.870]  [SPEAKER_19]: And on the next few pages is, well, let's just say a continuation of a previous list.
[09:12.410 --> 09:13.210]  [SPEAKER_19]: Very useful.
[09:13.410 --> 09:20.570]  [SPEAKER_19]: I mean, I don't know what we're going to do with this information as to where AT&T's offices are, but I'm sure somebody's writing them all down even as we speak.
[09:21.330 --> 09:23.130]  [SPEAKER_19]: Then, a very interesting thing.
[09:24.030 --> 09:29.050]  [SPEAKER_19]: Companies make videotapes for other companies, and one of them...
[09:29.050 --> 09:31.090]  [SPEAKER_19]: Actually, we reviewed three of them in this particular issue.
[09:31.690 --> 09:38.870]  [SPEAKER_19]: They are Virus Prevention, Detection, Recovery, and Back in Business, Disaster Recovery slash Business Resumption.
[09:40.350 --> 09:44.850]  [SPEAKER_19]: But the most interesting one, I think, is We Lost Control, Illegal Software Duplication.
[09:45.550 --> 09:53.410]  [SPEAKER_19]: Because that's the one where the SPA kind of has the say as to what the rules are.
[09:53.610 --> 09:55.290]  [SPEAKER_19]: You know, the fact that you have to copy software.
[09:55.470 --> 09:57.010]  [SPEAKER_19]: If you copy software, you're breaking the law.
[09:57.010 --> 10:00.210]  [SPEAKER_19]: If you want to use software on two machines in the same room, you have to buy it twice.
[10:00.590 --> 10:02.090]  [SPEAKER_19]: You know, illogic like that.
[10:03.330 --> 10:09.010]  [SPEAKER_19]: Interesting videotape that you can get for the bargain price of...
[10:09.650 --> 10:12.970]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, you can get all three of them for $1,338.75.
[10:14.450 --> 10:15.350]  [SPEAKER_19]: Yeah, okay.
[10:15.590 --> 10:18.730]  [SPEAKER_19]: And then we have an interesting...
[10:18.730 --> 10:22.350]  [SPEAKER_19]: I won't just call it a toll fraud device.
[10:23.630 --> 10:29.690]  [SPEAKER_19]: Yeah, we have an interesting toll fraud device, which I'm sure will cause quite a bit of...
[10:29.690 --> 10:31.070]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, it'll cause a stir.
[10:31.150 --> 10:31.870]  [SPEAKER_19]: Let's just put it that way.
[10:32.970 --> 10:33.930]  [SPEAKER_19]: And finally...
[10:35.490 --> 10:36.690]  [SPEAKER_19]: An ANSI bomb.
[10:37.490 --> 10:38.090]  [SPEAKER_19]: That's right.
[10:38.150 --> 10:44.210]  [SPEAKER_19]: When you think your computer is safe, there's some other way that you can be zapped.
[10:45.030 --> 10:48.410]  [SPEAKER_19]: And we give you details as to how that can happen to you.
[10:49.290 --> 10:54.850]  [SPEAKER_19]: And that's the new issue of 2600, the summer issue, which you'll note is coming out before the summertime is out.
[10:55.770 --> 10:58.450]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, wonders never cease.
[10:59.810 --> 11:02.830]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, time now to take a look at what's going on in the world.
[11:05.990 --> 11:08.130]  [SPEAKER_19]: This sometimes crazy world.
[11:35.030 --> 11:37.910]  [SPEAKER_19]: You ever get those, uh, annoying recordings?
[11:38.650 --> 11:41.690]  [SPEAKER_19]: I mean, they're not so annoying, I guess, because they do tell you something.
[11:42.750 --> 11:45.690]  [SPEAKER_19]: It says, basically, Do-do-do?
[11:46.010 --> 11:52.110]  [SPEAKER_19]: The number you have reached, whatever, has been disconnected, or has been changed, or...
[11:52.110 --> 11:54.570]  [SPEAKER_19]: It is not a working number, or...
[11:54.570 --> 11:55.050]  [SPEAKER_19]: Whatever.
[11:57.170 --> 11:58.030]  [SPEAKER_19]: Imagine...
[11:58.030 --> 12:01.550]  [SPEAKER_19]: If that entire system...
[12:01.550 --> 12:02.050]  [SPEAKER_19]: Suddenly...
[12:02.710 --> 12:03.770]  [SPEAKER_19]: Went down.
[12:08.650 --> 12:10.570]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, it happened.
[12:12.190 --> 12:13.580]  [SPEAKER_19]: And it happened...
[12:14.150 --> 12:15.470]  [SPEAKER_19]: In Baltimore.
[12:18.490 --> 12:22.970]  [SPEAKER_19]: Yeah, Chesapeake and Potamic Telephone, known as C&P Telephone...
[12:23.890 --> 12:25.360]  [SPEAKER_19]: Have, uh...
[12:25.730 --> 12:27.130]  [SPEAKER_19]: An intercept system.
[12:27.230 --> 12:28.770]  [SPEAKER_19]: That's what that's called, an intercept system.
[12:28.770 --> 12:31.430]  [SPEAKER_19]: Because it intercepts your telephone call...
[12:32.530 --> 12:33.910]  [SPEAKER_19]: And tells you something.
[12:36.760 --> 12:39.340]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, that particular intercept system, which, um...
[12:39.840 --> 12:41.920]  [SPEAKER_19]: Gives you that information, was knocked out...
[12:41.920 --> 12:43.520]  [SPEAKER_19]: On June 7th...
[12:43.520 --> 12:45.680]  [SPEAKER_19]: By a computer glitch in Richmond, Virginia.
[12:46.180 --> 12:49.200]  [SPEAKER_19]: As a result, customers' dialing numbers not in service...
[12:49.200 --> 12:50.980]  [SPEAKER_19]: Were connected to a recorded message...
[12:50.980 --> 12:52.320]  [SPEAKER_19]: That all circuits were busy.
[12:52.760 --> 12:55.340]  [SPEAKER_19]: That's according to C&P spokesman Paul Wood.
[12:56.600 --> 13:02.400]  [SPEAKER_19]: The problem was caused by redundant computer databases at a center in Richmond, which are alternately in service...
[13:02.400 --> 13:05.720]  [SPEAKER_19]: As new information on telephone number changes is loaded...
[13:05.720 --> 13:07.240]  [SPEAKER_19]: Five times a day.
[13:07.560 --> 13:08.400]  [SPEAKER_19]: Bet you didn't know that.
[13:08.520 --> 13:10.720]  [SPEAKER_19]: Five times a day, information is loaded into that system.
[13:11.720 --> 13:15.020]  [SPEAKER_19]: The changeover was being made at about 11.30 a.m.
[13:15.020 --> 13:18.220]  [SPEAKER_19]: When a computer processing problem occurred...
[13:18.220 --> 13:19.980]  [SPEAKER_19]: Cutting off access to the system.
[13:21.940 --> 13:26.320]  [SPEAKER_19]: The problem was expected to be resolved within 24 hours.
[13:31.720 --> 13:35.060]  [SPEAKER_19]: Here's a piece from the Risks Digest entitled...
[13:35.060 --> 13:37.960]  [SPEAKER_19]: My Grocery Store Is Not Dumb.
[13:38.200 --> 13:42.380]  [SPEAKER_19]: At my local supermarket, which has wonderful food and excellent service, by the way...
[13:42.380 --> 13:44.500]  [SPEAKER_19]: I usually pay with a Visa card.
[13:45.040 --> 13:49.640]  [SPEAKER_19]: Like most San Francisco supermarkets, they have a customer terminal with a magnetic card reader.
[13:50.000 --> 13:53.660]  [SPEAKER_19]: You run your card through it and sign the receipt that the cash register prints out.
[13:53.760 --> 13:54.720]  [SPEAKER_19]: It couldn't be simpler.
[13:56.000 --> 14:00.400]  [SPEAKER_19]: Yesterday, the clerk asked me for the card so she could run it through the old-style card-in-printer.
[14:01.160 --> 14:04.840]  [SPEAKER_19]: Apparently, enough people have been rewriting the magnetic stripes on their cards...
[14:04.840 --> 14:07.000]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...so the billing goes somewhere else.
[14:07.940 --> 14:11.100]  [SPEAKER_19]: They do that so often that the clerks now sight-verify the receipt...
[14:11.630 --> 14:16.620]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...making sure that the number embossed in the plastic card matches the number read from the magnetic stripe.
[14:19.000 --> 14:20.100]  [SPEAKER_19]: That's progress, all right.
[14:21.060 --> 14:22.660]  [SPEAKER_19]: I'm sure it speeds things up incredibly.
[14:25.120 --> 14:26.500]  [SPEAKER_19]: Here's a story out of Phoenix.
[14:27.100 --> 14:30.080]  [SPEAKER_19]: Since the Suns here in Phoenix are in the NBA playoffs...
[14:30.080 --> 14:32.480]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...one of the ticket offices discovered that something was amiss.
[14:32.480 --> 14:37.960]  [SPEAKER_19]: Since the only way to get any of the remaining tickets is by calling up either of the two ticket offices...
[14:37.960 --> 14:39.720]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...this happened for one of the games.
[14:40.860 --> 14:43.060]  [SPEAKER_19]: On one of our local channels, they reported...
[14:43.060 --> 14:46.540]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...that employees from the company that installed the phone for the ticket office...
[14:46.540 --> 14:48.860]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...I believe it was Dillard's...
[14:49.420 --> 14:50.520]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...but one of those...
[14:51.940 --> 14:53.660]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...one of those companies...
[14:53.660 --> 14:55.940]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...I'm not quite sure what they're referring to here...
[14:55.940 --> 14:58.100]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...they discovered that it had been fixed.
[14:58.820 --> 15:00.260]  [SPEAKER_19]: Okay, they had fixed the phone lines.
[15:00.320 --> 15:00.780]  [SPEAKER_19]: That's what happened.
[15:00.780 --> 15:02.760]  [SPEAKER_19]: They fixed the phone lines so the callers...
[15:04.300 --> 15:06.100]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...employees of the installing phone equipment...
[15:06.100 --> 15:08.440]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...would be the first to get through to place orders for the tickets.
[15:08.860 --> 15:10.120]  [SPEAKER_19]: This isn't written all that well.
[15:10.640 --> 15:12.380]  [SPEAKER_19]: The news show went on to add...
[15:12.380 --> 15:14.780]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...that disciplined actions had been taken...
[15:14.780 --> 15:17.400]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...and the company would not comment on the situation.
[15:18.880 --> 15:21.100]  [SPEAKER_19]: Hopefully, it's clearer than what I've just read here.
[15:21.420 --> 15:24.260]  [SPEAKER_19]: The modification to the phone system was detected by the ticket office.
[15:24.260 --> 15:30.100]  [SPEAKER_19]: What I believe happened was that they tampered with something...
[15:30.100 --> 15:32.900]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...so that they called a particular special number...
[15:32.900 --> 15:34.160]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...and got through before anybody else.
[15:35.580 --> 15:36.820]  [SPEAKER_19]: Or something like that.
[15:38.200 --> 15:39.200]  [SPEAKER_19]: Okay, how about this?
[15:39.280 --> 15:41.800]  [SPEAKER_19]: Palo Alto Library Computer System Calamity.
[15:42.280 --> 15:43.720]  [SPEAKER_19]: This comes from Peter Neumann...
[15:43.720 --> 15:45.680]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...who is the moderator of the Risks Digest.
[15:46.200 --> 15:48.680]  [SPEAKER_19]: Incidentally, if you want to receive the Risks Digest...
[15:48.680 --> 15:50.060]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...and you have access to the Internet...
[15:50.060 --> 15:53.260]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...you simply subscribe to comp.risks...
[15:53.260 --> 15:54.260]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...or you don't even have to subscribe.
[15:54.260 --> 15:57.620]  [SPEAKER_19]: You can just use a program like R-N or N-N...
[15:57.620 --> 16:01.300]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...and just follow that with the word comp...
[16:01.300 --> 16:03.100]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...a period, and the word Risks.
[16:03.340 --> 16:04.760]  [SPEAKER_19]: Comp, by the way, is C-O-M-P.
[16:04.900 --> 16:06.620]  [SPEAKER_19]: Risks is R-I-S-K-S.
[16:07.600 --> 16:10.400]  [SPEAKER_19]: And then you'll be able to read all this interesting material.
[16:11.360 --> 16:12.960]  [SPEAKER_19]: And there's a lot we don't read here.
[16:13.720 --> 16:15.720]  [SPEAKER_19]: On May 13, 1993...
[16:15.720 --> 16:19.300]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...the computer system used by the Palo Alto Library's six branches...
[16:19.300 --> 16:22.420]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...began to make a few small errors in processing requests.
[16:22.720 --> 16:25.560]  [SPEAKER_19]: The staff considered the errors not too serious at that time.
[16:25.880 --> 16:29.640]  [SPEAKER_19]: However, by May 22, the problems had escalated seriously...
[16:29.640 --> 16:31.700]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...and the service folks were called in.
[16:32.260 --> 16:35.240]  [SPEAKER_19]: The system is an eight-year-old ultimate system from Honeywell.
[16:35.460 --> 16:36.600]  [SPEAKER_19]: Ultimate system, yeah.
[16:36.920 --> 16:39.860]  [SPEAKER_19]: Only used or reconditioned replacement parts are available.
[16:40.460 --> 16:43.260]  [SPEAKER_19]: Unfortunately, the replacement parts turned out to be lemons...
[16:43.260 --> 16:45.800]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...which further aggravated the situation.
[16:45.800 --> 16:49.380]  [SPEAKER_19]: As a backup, the staff resorted to a read-only file...
[16:49.380 --> 16:52.400]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...that tells only what books the library owns...
[16:52.400 --> 16:54.100]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...but not what is supposedly on the shelves.
[16:55.340 --> 16:58.880]  [SPEAKER_19]: Consequently, all book-borrowing transactions had to be done by hand...
[16:58.880 --> 17:01.780]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...while no return books could be reshelved.
[17:02.260 --> 17:05.980]  [SPEAKER_19]: A power surge on May 25 did even further damage to the system...
[17:05.980 --> 17:08.760]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...and on the 26th, the system was shut down completely for another week.
[17:10.480 --> 17:11.880]  [SPEAKER_19]: Shut down completely.
[17:13.580 --> 17:17.280]  [SPEAKER_19]: Finally, the system was available again on June 2nd.
[17:17.520 --> 17:22.260]  [SPEAKER_19]: Although considerable effort had to be devoted to processing the accumulation of return books...
[17:22.260 --> 17:25.660]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...before operations returned to normal.
[18:20.010 --> 18:24.200]  [SPEAKER_19]: You know, one of the dangers of this computer age of ours...
[18:25.420 --> 18:27.220]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...is the danger of becoming impersonal.
[18:27.820 --> 18:29.660]  [SPEAKER_19]: And, you know, that can work in many different ways.
[18:31.760 --> 18:35.280]  [SPEAKER_19]: I don't know if you've seen any of the grassroots movements...
[18:35.280 --> 18:39.820]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...that allow you to send massive amounts of letters to a particular address...
[18:39.820 --> 18:41.530]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...because you can.
[18:43.380 --> 18:47.420]  [SPEAKER_19]: And the problem there is that, let's say, a congressman someplace...
[18:48.080 --> 18:50.550]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...will get 10,000 identical letters...
[18:50.550 --> 18:53.050]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...that are all made on a computer system...
[18:53.050 --> 18:55.180]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...or all mailed through the Internet...
[18:55.180 --> 18:59.260]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...or all copied on a high-speed Xerox machine.
[19:00.030 --> 19:02.050]  [SPEAKER_19]: They can even make them look personal.
[19:02.420 --> 19:06.180]  [SPEAKER_19]: They can even put in typos, spelling errors, smudges.
[19:06.820 --> 19:11.580]  [SPEAKER_19]: I mean, I've gotten fooled a couple of times by mass marketing houses...
[19:11.580 --> 19:13.970]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...that send you things that look like they're hand-type...
[19:13.970 --> 19:15.140]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...but actually they're not.
[19:15.160 --> 19:17.990]  [SPEAKER_19]: They even have these stamp-wiggler machines...
[19:17.990 --> 19:19.800]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...that will put the stamp on crooked.
[19:20.570 --> 19:22.760]  [SPEAKER_19]: Only a human would put a stamp on crooked.
[19:24.030 --> 19:24.550]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well...
[19:25.680 --> 19:27.010]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...it's all done by machine.
[19:27.300 --> 19:30.180]  [SPEAKER_19]: And, you know, we can spot this as individuals.
[19:30.180 --> 19:32.300]  [SPEAKER_19]: We can say to ourselves...
[19:33.320 --> 19:35.220]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...it's Madison Avenue again...
[19:35.220 --> 19:36.510]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...trying to hook us...
[19:36.510 --> 19:37.780]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...but it won't work.
[19:38.530 --> 19:41.320]  [SPEAKER_19]: We have to be careful not to fall into the same trap...
[19:41.320 --> 19:42.090]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...and be...
[19:43.400 --> 19:44.440]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...the aggressor...
[19:44.440 --> 19:46.260]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...in this particular scenario.
[19:46.530 --> 19:48.050]  [SPEAKER_19]: I'll give you an example of what I mean.
[19:49.490 --> 19:51.800]  [SPEAKER_19]: This is a letter from...
[19:52.970 --> 19:55.460]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...Shamal Jajodia of the Risk Digest...
[19:55.460 --> 19:56.460]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...called Grassroots vs.
[19:56.720 --> 19:57.640]  [SPEAKER_19]: Astro-Turf Movements.
[19:57.800 --> 20:00.400]  [SPEAKER_19]: This morning there was a report on National Public Radio...
[20:00.400 --> 20:01.380]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...on what it called...
[20:01.380 --> 20:03.860]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...Astro-Turf Letter Writing Campaigns.
[20:04.110 --> 20:05.970]  [SPEAKER_19]: Apparently some lobbying firms...
[20:05.970 --> 20:07.880]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...have started offering this service to clients...
[20:07.880 --> 20:08.920]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...likely to be affected...
[20:08.920 --> 20:11.460]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...by legislation about to come up for vote.
[20:13.180 --> 20:16.660]  [SPEAKER_19]: For a fee, they will generate a large number of letters...
[20:16.660 --> 20:19.340]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...which will put forward the client's case...
[20:19.340 --> 20:20.900]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...to several selected mailing lists.
[20:21.860 --> 20:23.700]  [SPEAKER_19]: These letters also contain...
[20:23.700 --> 20:26.050]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...an exhortation to sign and mail...
[20:26.050 --> 20:27.940]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...the included protest letters...
[20:27.940 --> 20:31.070]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...which are pre-addressed to the area congressional rep.
[20:32.720 --> 20:33.840]  [SPEAKER_19]: Such campaigns...
[20:33.840 --> 20:34.860]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...were...
[20:35.280 --> 20:37.070]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...found by several congressmen...
[20:37.070 --> 20:38.990]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...who are in favor of the Clinton administration's...
[20:38.990 --> 20:41.030]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...proposed BTU tax.
[20:41.990 --> 20:43.360]  [SPEAKER_19]: On the face of it...
[20:43.360 --> 20:46.240]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...it seems like the good old American democratic system.
[20:46.590 --> 20:48.990]  [SPEAKER_19]: But the risk identified by one of the congressmen...
[20:48.990 --> 20:50.740]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...was that the high levels of noise...
[20:51.340 --> 20:53.680]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...generated by these computer-aided campaigns...
[20:53.680 --> 20:55.240]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...are making it difficult for them...
[20:55.240 --> 20:58.340]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...to identify the genuine missive...
[20:58.340 --> 21:00.110]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...from Mrs. Bramley in Peoria.
[21:00.280 --> 21:01.110]  [SPEAKER_19]: In other words...
[21:02.050 --> 21:03.160]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...what's the real thing...
[21:03.160 --> 21:04.610]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...and what's a mass-generated letter?
[21:04.860 --> 21:06.740]  [SPEAKER_19]: Odds are they're just going to ignore them all.
[21:07.280 --> 21:08.960]  [SPEAKER_19]: If you send somebody 10,000...
[21:08.960 --> 21:10.900]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...identical copies of the same letter...
[21:10.900 --> 21:12.530]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...and this is a problem I've always had...
[21:12.530 --> 21:14.510]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...with protest organizations.
[21:15.140 --> 21:16.740]  [SPEAKER_19]: You know, they'll have letters...
[21:16.740 --> 21:18.320]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...that you just sign your name in the bottom...
[21:18.320 --> 21:19.400]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...but they're exactly the same.
[21:21.040 --> 21:22.160]  [SPEAKER_19]: After a while...
[21:22.160 --> 21:23.590]  [SPEAKER_19]: I mean, these people aren't stupid...
[21:23.590 --> 21:24.700]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...they're going to see that...
[21:24.700 --> 21:25.880]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...these letters are all the same.
[21:25.960 --> 21:27.320]  [SPEAKER_19]: They won't even open them after a while.
[21:29.640 --> 21:30.840]  [SPEAKER_19]: And on top of that...
[21:30.840 --> 21:31.760]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...they'll just get angry...
[21:31.760 --> 21:32.880]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...at the people that are doing this...
[21:32.880 --> 21:34.760]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...and be all the more resolute...
[21:35.600 --> 21:37.140]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...to do anything they can...
[21:37.140 --> 21:37.960]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...to antagonize them.
[21:39.240 --> 21:41.090]  [SPEAKER_19]: So we need imaginative ways...
[21:41.090 --> 21:42.640]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...and we also need to preserve...
[21:42.640 --> 21:43.820]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...our individuality...
[21:43.820 --> 21:46.340]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...so that we can actually...
[21:46.340 --> 21:48.470]  [SPEAKER_19]: ...get our own individual thoughts...
[21:48.470 --> 21:49.110]  [SPEAKER_19]: expressed.
[21:50.340 --> 21:51.660]  [SPEAKER_19]: And you know, that's possible.
[21:51.900 --> 21:54.760]  [SPEAKER_19]: That's very possible in this technological age to do that.
[21:55.460 --> 21:58.680]  [SPEAKER_19]: You just have to put a little effort into it.
[21:59.090 --> 22:01.860]  [SPEAKER_19]: You never get anywhere without putting a little effort into it.
[22:03.240 --> 22:06.140]  [SPEAKER_19]: Finally, after this, we'll be taking phone calls.
[22:06.260 --> 22:08.220]  [SPEAKER_19]: 212-279-3400.
[22:08.610 --> 22:15.590]  [SPEAKER_19]: If you have a question or a comment or a tip or just something you want to get off your chest.
[22:16.500 --> 22:18.320]  [SPEAKER_19]: 212-279-3400.
[22:21.220 --> 22:21.740]  [SPEAKER_19]: 212-279-3400.
[22:21.740 --> 22:30.260]  [SPEAKER_19]: Two computer hackers who illegally infiltrated the computer systems last fall at the Boeing Company and the United States District Court.
[22:30.320 --> 22:31.140]  [SPEAKER_19]: You got to head into them.
[22:31.660 --> 22:33.780]  [SPEAKER_19]: Hackers getting into the United States District Court.
[22:34.240 --> 22:36.200]  [SPEAKER_19]: Probably the same one that later sentenced them.
[22:37.260 --> 22:41.740]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, they were each sentenced to 5 years of probation and 250 hours of community service.
[22:43.820 --> 22:50.680]  [SPEAKER_19]: Magistrate David Wilson also ordered the two Seattle residents to pay a combined $30,000-30,000 in restitution.
[22:52.640 --> 22:59.820]  [SPEAKER_19]: Boeing, which said at the time that none of its systems or data had been damaged by the unauthorized access, will get $28,000 of the fine.
[23:00.760 --> 23:06.200]  [SPEAKER_19]: And the court will get $2,000 to defray costs of changing security and checking files.
[23:07.880 --> 23:13.960]  [SPEAKER_19]: As part of the probation, they're not allowed to own a computer or computer accounts without the permission of the probation officer.
[23:13.960 --> 23:16.040]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, you know, there's good and bad here.
[23:16.540 --> 23:26.720]  [SPEAKER_19]: The good is that these people are not being sent to jail, which is what a lot of the more vocal opponents of computer hackers insist upon.
[23:27.680 --> 23:30.360]  [SPEAKER_19]: Jail does absolutely nothing for a computer hacker.
[23:30.500 --> 23:33.590]  [SPEAKER_19]: It does absolutely nothing for society to send a computer hacker to jail.
[23:33.590 --> 23:38.820]  [SPEAKER_19]: So it's good that, in this particular case, that did not happen.
[23:39.220 --> 23:40.110]  [SPEAKER_19]: 5 years probation?
[23:40.260 --> 23:40.760]  [SPEAKER_19]: I don't know.
[23:40.840 --> 23:42.220]  [SPEAKER_19]: That's a lot of time.
[23:42.220 --> 23:45.460]  [SPEAKER_19]: You give 5 years probation to real serious criminals there.
[23:45.540 --> 23:48.440]  [SPEAKER_19]: That's, you know, a lot of checking up on somebody.
[23:49.050 --> 23:58.140]  [SPEAKER_19]: As for not owning a computer or computer accounts without the express permission of the probation officer, well, again, we've seen worse.
[23:58.140 --> 24:04.700]  [SPEAKER_19]: We've seen it said that convicted hackers cannot go near computers at all.
[24:05.040 --> 24:10.340]  [SPEAKER_19]: And, you know, that's real silly because it's almost impossible not to go near a computer these days.
[24:12.120 --> 24:20.380]  [SPEAKER_19]: And it's something akin to torture to tell a computer hacker that he can't go near a computer.
[24:22.820 --> 24:31.520]  [SPEAKER_19]: I mean, you can tell somebody not to do certain things with a computer, but to not use such a basic tool in today's society, I think, is absurd.
[24:31.920 --> 24:42.520]  [SPEAKER_19]: So, this is a positive step in that they recognize the inevitability of using a computer, and they just have to get permission to do that.
[24:43.220 --> 24:48.480]  [SPEAKER_19]: 5 years of getting permission, though, can be a bit of a drag, but, again, we've seen worse.
[24:48.480 --> 24:54.260]  [SPEAKER_19]: Now, as far as a $30,000 fine, well, again, we've seen worse.
[24:54.420 --> 25:01.800]  [SPEAKER_19]: We've seen a $260,000 fine for the Atlanta hackers, the three Atlanta hackers, a couple of years ago.
[25:02.800 --> 25:18.200]  [SPEAKER_19]: But still, to say that someone has to pay $30,000 because a computer system didn't have the right security to start with, and now they have to pay to put the right security in, and it seems to me you're mixing up the messenger with the message.
[25:18.380 --> 25:21.840]  [SPEAKER_19]: The message was that their systems were vulnerable.
[25:22.610 --> 25:28.610]  [SPEAKER_19]: The people that actually were able to figure it out are being blamed for those vulnerabilities, and I just don't think that's right.
[25:29.570 --> 25:31.240]  [SPEAKER_19]: I mean, you know, people trespass.
[25:31.340 --> 25:32.920]  [SPEAKER_19]: You fine them a small amount.
[25:32.920 --> 25:33.940]  [SPEAKER_19]: You tell them not to do it again.
[25:33.940 --> 25:34.840]  [SPEAKER_19]: They usually don't.
[25:35.880 --> 25:41.900]  [SPEAKER_19]: If you extend that real-world analogy to the computer world, you'll see that it will hold up.
[25:42.460 --> 25:55.300]  [SPEAKER_19]: You know, if people go to you and say, don't do this anymore, and perhaps fine you a small amount, and say, we're keeping our eye on you, they're not going to certainly do the same thing again.
[25:56.260 --> 26:05.640]  [SPEAKER_19]: So it's something I think is worth trying, rather than find somebody a huge amount of money because they didn't have adequate security.
[26:05.780 --> 26:12.980]  [SPEAKER_19]: It's equivalent to somebody walking into the Empire State Building when the Empire State Building is closed.
[26:13.920 --> 26:20.360]  [SPEAKER_19]: And because they were able to get in, they now have to install a real complex lock system.
[26:20.740 --> 26:22.920]  [SPEAKER_19]: And maybe, how about a card reader system, too?
[26:23.070 --> 26:25.020]  [SPEAKER_19]: And a retina scan, that's it.
[26:25.300 --> 26:27.700]  [SPEAKER_19]: So that people won't be able to just walk in.
[26:28.400 --> 26:35.020]  [SPEAKER_19]: You know, so, let's find somebody that walks into a closed building, $100,000, and they certainly won't do it again.
[26:36.520 --> 26:39.420]  [SPEAKER_19]: And then, we'll all be more secure.
[26:41.700 --> 26:42.360]  [SPEAKER_19]: I don't know.
[26:42.460 --> 26:46.590]  [SPEAKER_19]: I just say, if we're going to apply something in one area, we should apply it across the board.
[26:46.780 --> 26:49.220]  [SPEAKER_19]: So, let's go one way or the other, and not waver.
[26:49.640 --> 26:52.040]  [SPEAKER_19]: Okay, 212-279-3400.
[26:52.160 --> 26:53.240]  [SPEAKER_19]: The program is off the hook.
[26:53.420 --> 26:54.590]  [SPEAKER_19]: This is Emmanuel Goldstein.
[26:54.590 --> 26:55.960]  [SPEAKER_19]: We're together until 11 o'clock.
[26:56.680 --> 26:58.480]  [SPEAKER_19]: And if you have anything...
[26:58.480 --> 27:00.610]  [SPEAKER_19]: Oh, for crying out loud, what do they want now?
[27:01.920 --> 27:02.800]  [SPEAKER_19]: Uh-oh, that's serious.
[27:04.040 --> 27:05.070]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, all right.
[27:05.320 --> 27:06.570]  [SPEAKER_19]: I'm not going to be nervous about that.
[27:07.880 --> 27:09.740]  [SPEAKER_19]: Never bring a beeper to a radio show.
[27:09.880 --> 27:11.880]  [SPEAKER_19]: This is very distracting.
[27:12.720 --> 27:19.320]  [SPEAKER_19]: Okay, um, give us a call, 212-279-3400, whatever is on your mind.
[27:20.720 --> 27:21.700]  [SPEAKER_19]: Good evening, you're on.
[27:23.020 --> 27:23.960]  Good evening, you're on.
[27:24.090 --> 27:26.000]  [SPEAKER_19]: And you're also on delay, so speak up.
[27:27.240 --> 27:31.110]  [SPEAKER_19]: All right, well, we need people who have brains to call on us tonight.
[27:31.360 --> 27:31.720]  [SPEAKER_19]: Good evening.
[27:32.480 --> 27:32.680]  [SPEAKER_17]: Hello?
[27:32.900 --> 27:33.420]  [SPEAKER_19]: Yes, go ahead.
[27:33.780 --> 27:34.460]  [SPEAKER_17]: Is this radio station?
[27:34.640 --> 27:35.420]  [SPEAKER_19]: Yeah, and you're on the air.
[27:36.040 --> 27:38.550]  [SPEAKER_17]: Yeah, I called to, um...
[27:38.550 --> 27:38.900]  [SPEAKER_17]: Hello?
[27:39.090 --> 27:39.940]  [SPEAKER_19]: Yeah, speak up, please.
[27:40.480 --> 27:40.740]  [SPEAKER_17]: All right.
[27:41.240 --> 27:44.570]  [SPEAKER_17]: Um, I wanted to know where I could get that 2600 magazine.
[27:44.860 --> 27:48.680]  [SPEAKER_19]: Okay, you can probably, uh, find it in many bookstores around the area.
[27:48.800 --> 27:49.740]  [SPEAKER_19]: I know, uh...
[27:49.740 --> 27:51.000]  [SPEAKER_19]: I know Tower Books has it.
[27:51.070 --> 27:53.660]  [SPEAKER_19]: I know, um, Hudson News has it downtown.
[27:55.180 --> 27:56.680]  [SPEAKER_19]: Lots of, lots of stores like that.
[27:56.700 --> 27:57.880]  [SPEAKER_19]: If you ask around, you'll find it.
[27:58.020 --> 28:00.590]  [SPEAKER_17]: All right, and also, um, I have a cellular phone, right?
[28:00.840 --> 28:01.110]  [SPEAKER_19]: Uh-huh.
[28:02.600 --> 28:05.380]  [SPEAKER_17]: And there's some way that somebody keeps making calls with it.
[28:05.680 --> 28:08.800]  [SPEAKER_19]: Okay, what they're doing is, uh, well, I mean, what kind of bills are you getting?
[28:09.800 --> 28:19.720]  [SPEAKER_17]: Um, like, a couple of hundred dollars extra, and some, I dispute the bill, but then they turned off the service, then I came back in, they changed the number for me, they reprogrammed, they charged me for it.
[28:19.740 --> 28:26.340]  [SPEAKER_19]: They should not charge you, and they, if, if, if they don't refund your money, you should, uh, you should definitely, uh, get a consumer advocate group after them.
[28:26.820 --> 28:28.760]  [SPEAKER_19]: Uh, cellular phones are wide open to fraud.
[28:28.880 --> 28:35.680]  [SPEAKER_19]: People are able to, uh, uh, to copy, uh, ESNs, and, um, and, and, and duplicate your phone number, basically, is what they're doing.
[28:36.320 --> 28:37.380]  [SPEAKER_19]: Uh, it's very simple to do that.
[28:37.520 --> 28:44.840]  [SPEAKER_19]: It's, it's broadcast unencrypted, so people can just literally grab it out of the air and, and program their own cellular phone to act as your cellular phone.
[28:45.300 --> 28:47.340]  [SPEAKER_19]: And, uh, the cellular companies know this.
[28:47.460 --> 28:49.550]  [SPEAKER_19]: They, they have no right to go around charging people for this.
[28:49.740 --> 28:53.800]  [SPEAKER_19]: Until they fix their system, it's, uh, it's going to happen over and over again.
[28:53.880 --> 28:59.300]  [SPEAKER_19]: I mean, I would suggest not using cellular phones because, A, you have this problem, and, B, people can listen in on you all the time.
[29:00.760 --> 29:03.920]  [SPEAKER_17]: Oh, so it's, there's no way to stop them from doing it?
[29:04.160 --> 29:11.900]  [SPEAKER_19]: No, not until they, not until they, uh, come up with a better system, uh, to protect the information, uh, the billing information and your telephone information.
[29:12.340 --> 29:15.590]  [SPEAKER_19]: Um, and obviously, the company you're using isn't doing that.
[29:15.800 --> 29:16.880]  [SPEAKER_19]: Has this happened more than once?
[29:17.420 --> 29:18.700]  [SPEAKER_17]: No, it's only happened once.
[29:18.900 --> 29:19.110]  [SPEAKER_19]: Uh-huh.
[29:19.340 --> 29:22.140]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, I mean, there is, there's absolutely no reason for them to charge you for that.
[29:22.260 --> 29:31.860]  [SPEAKER_19]: And, uh, you know, I'm sure if you explain to them that you know it's their fault, uh, in that they are selling you a product that is not completely secure, uh, I'm sure they'll wipe that charge away.
[29:31.960 --> 29:33.320]  [SPEAKER_19]: How much do they charge you, out of curiosity?
[29:33.820 --> 29:34.520]  [SPEAKER_17]: Um, $75.
[29:34.520 --> 29:35.800]  [SPEAKER_19]: That's, that's obscene.
[29:35.940 --> 29:36.720]  [SPEAKER_19]: That is obscene.
[29:37.580 --> 29:39.220]  [SPEAKER_19]: Uh, call them and tell them that.
[29:39.340 --> 29:43.660]  [SPEAKER_19]: And if they, if they give you further problems, call us back, because that's, that should not be happening.
[29:44.240 --> 29:44.940]  [SPEAKER_17]: Okay, thank you.
[29:44.980 --> 29:45.070]  [SPEAKER_19]: All right?
[29:45.220 --> 29:45.840]  [SPEAKER_19]: All right, good luck.
[29:47.040 --> 29:49.570]  [SPEAKER_19]: It, it, it, you know, I don't know what it is about telecommunications.
[29:49.720 --> 29:52.000]  [SPEAKER_19]: I mean, we didn't have cellular companies a few years ago.
[29:52.140 --> 29:55.090]  [SPEAKER_19]: But now we have cellular companies, and they act just like the regular phone companies.
[29:55.160 --> 30:02.110]  [SPEAKER_19]: It's like something, something bred into the whole communication system that people who run it have to act like sleazebags.
[30:03.280 --> 30:04.440]  [SPEAKER_19]: We're not going to take it, are we?
[30:04.520 --> 30:05.520]  [SPEAKER_19]: Good evening.
[30:05.820 --> 30:06.500]  [SPEAKER_08]: Hi, how are you?
[30:06.590 --> 30:07.160]  [SPEAKER_19]: Okay, how are you?
[30:07.400 --> 30:08.550]  [SPEAKER_08]: You know what they did recently?
[30:08.700 --> 30:10.920]  [SPEAKER_08]: Um, I'm a scanner enthusiast.
[30:11.200 --> 30:22.040]  [SPEAKER_08]: They just passed some legislation now where you are not allowed to, um, so-called eavesdrop in on, on, uh, phone calls, the cellular phone calls.
[30:22.160 --> 30:25.420]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, there was always, um, a law that said you weren't allowed to listen.
[30:25.550 --> 30:28.610]  [SPEAKER_19]: Now, I believe the law states you're not allowed to own something that can listen.
[30:28.800 --> 30:38.240]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, what happens is that the manufacturers are now, uh, not able to, uh, manufacture these scanners with the frequencies that you can, uh, pick up your cellular phones with.
[30:38.660 --> 30:43.520]  [SPEAKER_08]: Although I can listen to the, uh, home phones that you will walk around with.
[30:43.520 --> 30:44.590]  [SPEAKER_19]: Right, cordless phones.
[30:44.680 --> 30:45.460]  [SPEAKER_19]: That's perfectly legal.
[30:45.540 --> 30:46.340]  [SPEAKER_19]: You can listen to those.
[30:46.550 --> 30:47.740]  [SPEAKER_19]: No law against that, right?
[30:48.040 --> 30:51.700]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, that was one thing I wanted to point out because you were talking to this last fellow about that.
[30:51.840 --> 30:57.300]  [SPEAKER_08]: But when was the last time any one of us actually paid a visit to our, uh, elected officials?
[30:57.980 --> 31:00.070]  [SPEAKER_08]: I mean, most people don't even know who they are.
[31:00.500 --> 31:00.900]  [SPEAKER_19]: That's true.
[31:01.180 --> 31:07.340]  [SPEAKER_19]: And, uh, you know, having been down there last week talking to a couple of our elected representatives, uh, I know it's not easy.
[31:07.500 --> 31:11.480]  [SPEAKER_19]: It's not easy talking to them because they're as dumb as a lot of the phone company people.
[31:11.900 --> 31:16.520]  [SPEAKER_19]: But, uh, the only way to reach dumb people is to keep pounding them with information.
[31:16.700 --> 31:18.880]  [SPEAKER_19]: And either they get out of the way or they learn something.
[31:19.160 --> 31:23.000]  [SPEAKER_19]: But you can't stand back and just let them control things because they really don't know what's going on.
[31:23.160 --> 31:27.140]  [SPEAKER_19]: I mean, to give you an example, you were just talking about, about, uh, cellular phones.
[31:27.140 --> 31:28.680]  [SPEAKER_19]: And then, so was the gentleman before you.
[31:29.320 --> 31:46.040]  [SPEAKER_19]: Uh, the, the, the person, Representative Fields that I was talking to last week from Texas is convinced that by, by 2600 publishing frequencies, like the 800 megahertz frequencies, and showing people how those public open frequencies have, have unencrypted phone calls on them,
[31:46.280 --> 31:52.090]  [SPEAKER_19]: we were publishing the equivalent of phone codes to allow people to, uh, uh, to break into others' privacy.
[31:52.320 --> 31:53.360]  [SPEAKER_19]: That's, that's totally absurd.
[31:53.520 --> 31:57.460]  [SPEAKER_19]: But it indicates how, uh, people just don't understand how the technology works.
[31:57.840 --> 32:12.220]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, I'll tell, for those people who don't understand it very quickly, I could tell you that even with the scanner now, the way, uh, the phone conversations work is that if I speak to you off the telephone and you talk to me at the other end, the, um,
[32:13.220 --> 32:14.740]  [SPEAKER_08]: frequencies change constantly.
[32:14.960 --> 32:18.420]  [SPEAKER_08]: They're, they're both scrambled and, and trunked.
[32:18.610 --> 32:24.460]  [SPEAKER_08]: If you know, trunk, trunking is, it's like a, it's a back and forth situation among many frequencies.
[32:25.000 --> 32:30.740]  [SPEAKER_08]: So even with a handheld scanner, there's no way you could possibly listen to one conversation.
[32:31.050 --> 32:35.940]  [SPEAKER_08]: You may hear one side of a conversation, but the thing's constantly jumping back and forth.
[32:36.260 --> 32:36.800]  [SPEAKER_17]: Uh-huh.
[32:36.920 --> 32:45.200]  [SPEAKER_08]: So even with the law involved, there's no way you could, the technology is such now that you'll never will be able to listen to it, even if you had the frequencies.
[32:45.200 --> 32:45.860]  [SPEAKER_19]: Yeah.
[32:46.140 --> 32:51.280]  [SPEAKER_19]: And, uh, that, that gets, uh, that gets certain law enforcement people very nervous because they want to be able to listen to everything.
[32:51.550 --> 32:54.700]  [SPEAKER_08]: I would like to recommend to you a magazine before I go.
[32:54.900 --> 32:56.340]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's a thing called Monitoring Times.
[32:56.610 --> 32:57.340]  [SPEAKER_19]: Very good magazine.
[32:57.520 --> 32:57.720]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[32:58.340 --> 33:01.200]  [SPEAKER_08]: And they cover a lot of things, including computers.
[33:01.960 --> 33:04.070]  [SPEAKER_08]: I'm a shortwave enthusiast, by the way.
[33:04.320 --> 33:04.460]  [SPEAKER_19]: Uh-huh.
[33:04.460 --> 33:08.380]  [SPEAKER_19]: Yeah, that's a very good magazine to read if you are a shortwave enthusiast or just a scanner enthusiast in general.
[33:08.500 --> 33:08.760]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yes.
[33:09.380 --> 33:11.220]  [SPEAKER_08]: So I thought I would, uh, pass that along.
[33:11.460 --> 33:12.480]  [SPEAKER_19]: Okay, well, thanks for doing that.
[33:12.540 --> 33:12.640]  [SPEAKER_19]: All right.
[33:12.640 --> 33:13.260]  [SPEAKER_19]: Have a nice day.
[33:13.360 --> 33:13.820]  [SPEAKER_19]: Okay, you too.
[33:14.040 --> 33:14.160]  [SPEAKER_19]: Bye.
[33:15.200 --> 33:25.000]  [SPEAKER_19]: Uh, find that magazine in, uh, the same magazine stores that you find 2600 in, which Tower, Hudson, Shakespeare Books, uh, Soho's Ad, is that still around?
[33:25.070 --> 33:28.070]  [SPEAKER_19]: Uh, Coliseum, St. Mark's Bookstores.
[33:28.280 --> 33:35.570]  [SPEAKER_19]: You know, we, we have a lot of good bookstores here in this, uh, in this city, so take advantage of them before somebody beats you to it.
[33:35.800 --> 33:36.160]  [SPEAKER_19]: Good evening.
[33:36.550 --> 33:37.400]  [SPEAKER_10]: Hi, Emmanuel?
[33:37.570 --> 33:38.050]  [SPEAKER_19]: Yes, go ahead.
[33:40.050 --> 33:46.860]  [SPEAKER_10]: Um, I, uh, have a copy of 2600, uh, the Hacker Quarterly, a Spring 1990 issue here.
[33:47.070 --> 33:48.480]  [SPEAKER_19]: Spring 1990, huh?
[33:48.720 --> 33:48.880]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
[33:49.160 --> 33:53.050]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, um, it's, uh, building a DTMF decoder?
[33:53.820 --> 33:54.590]  [SPEAKER_10]: DTMF decoder?
[33:54.760 --> 33:55.860]  [SPEAKER_19]: Right, DTMF decoder.
[33:56.050 --> 34:14.340]  [SPEAKER_10]: Right, um, I basically have the whole thing built, but now I'm in a point when I cannot get a hold of the main IC chip, which is the S, which is the S-I, S-S-I-202.
[34:14.860 --> 34:21.520]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, I spoke to you about it at one of the 2600 meetings, and, uh, you mentioned that you might look into it and get back to me.
[34:21.540 --> 34:23.980]  [SPEAKER_10]: I was wondering if you, uh, found anything out on that.
[34:23.980 --> 34:26.720]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, have you, uh, have you looked in Popular Electronics?
[34:27.220 --> 34:41.880]  [SPEAKER_10]: As a matter of fact, I, I've called up a few of the electronic magazines, and they told me they will be featuring an article about building a decoder sometime this year, but, uh, I, I, I did call up a lot of other places, and I couldn't find anyone with the chip.
[34:42.460 --> 34:44.180]  [SPEAKER_19]: Did you call, uh, Jameco?
[34:44.600 --> 34:49.740]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yes, I called up all the standard DigiKey, Jameco, all, all those standard places, Mouser.
[34:49.740 --> 34:50.360]  [SPEAKER_19]: Uh-huh.
[34:50.500 --> 34:52.110]  [SPEAKER_19]: Yeah, those are all the ones I would recommend.
[34:52.520 --> 34:54.220]  [SPEAKER_19]: Um, what'd they say?
[34:54.280 --> 34:55.900]  [SPEAKER_19]: Did they say they were going to get them, or...?
[34:55.900 --> 35:02.260]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, no, they just say they don't have a listing for it, there's no cross-reference to that number, and that was it.
[35:02.860 --> 35:03.070]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh-huh.
[35:03.160 --> 35:08.660]  [SPEAKER_10]: Basically, um, something just came in the mail this week that basically is just gonna make me forget the project.
[35:09.000 --> 35:16.720]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's somebody selling, uh, DTMF decoders for $69.95, and, um, if you're interested, I can give the address.
[35:17.140 --> 35:18.220]  [SPEAKER_10]: I don't know if you want to, though.
[35:18.400 --> 35:18.800]  [SPEAKER_19]: No, go ahead.
[35:18.800 --> 35:34.760]  [SPEAKER_10]: Um, it's, uh, Fintronics, F-I-N-T-R-O-N-I-C-S, that's, uh, 13 Stage Street, S-T-A-G-E Street, in Suffern, S-U-F-F-E-R-N, New York, 10901.
[35:35.140 --> 35:39.520]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, uh, he sent me back, uh, a little brochure here, so I sent the money out.
[35:39.900 --> 35:43.300]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, uh, if I do ever come across the chip, I will finish the project, though.
[35:43.460 --> 35:45.880]  [SPEAKER_19]: Okay, well, why don't you give me the, uh, the chip number again?
[35:45.880 --> 35:48.590]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, S-S-I- or 1.
[35:48.920 --> 35:50.110]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's either an I or a 1.
[35:50.240 --> 35:51.110]  [SPEAKER_10]: I'm pretty sure it's an I.
[35:51.760 --> 35:52.840]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, 2-0-2.
[35:53.240 --> 35:54.400]  [SPEAKER_10]: 2-0-2.
[35:54.700 --> 36:00.640]  [SPEAKER_19]: Okay, well, Phiber Optik's wandering around the studio somewhere, so if he, uh, drops by, I'll see if he knows where he might be able to get that.
[36:00.960 --> 36:01.160]  [SPEAKER_19]: Right.
[36:01.360 --> 36:04.020]  [SPEAKER_19]: Uh, otherwise, I'd just say keep trying your ABAI listeners now.
[36:04.040 --> 36:05.320]  [SPEAKER_19]: Of course, they'll call in and help out.
[36:05.550 --> 36:05.820]  [SPEAKER_10]: All right.
[36:05.860 --> 36:07.640]  [SPEAKER_10]: Also, I spoke to you at the meeting.
[36:07.780 --> 36:14.800]  [SPEAKER_10]: I mentioned to you about that, uh, CD set that I, uh, had purchased with the whole phone directory of the United States.
[36:15.000 --> 36:15.340]  [SPEAKER_19]: Yes.
[36:15.800 --> 36:17.720]  [SPEAKER_10]: Um, it's been working out really good for me.
[36:17.840 --> 36:22.160]  [SPEAKER_10]: As a matter of fact, I had put an ad in the Village Voice, which came out today.
[36:22.400 --> 36:22.680]  [SPEAKER_14]: Uh-huh.
[36:22.940 --> 36:29.580]  [SPEAKER_10]: Um, that's offering a reverse phone directory and, um, charging $10 per successful lookup.
[36:29.660 --> 36:34.640]  [SPEAKER_10]: In other words, if I can't find it, if it's not listed, you know, don't even bother to send me any money.
[36:34.940 --> 36:35.120]  [SPEAKER_19]: Uh-huh.
[36:35.220 --> 36:39.960]  [SPEAKER_10]: I got a few calls for it already, but, um, I think it's a really good, you know, program.
[36:40.100 --> 36:43.880]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, you're welcome to give you a phone number out here, too, if you want, because I'm sure people might be interested in that.
[36:44.020 --> 36:44.200]  [SPEAKER_10]: All right.
[36:44.260 --> 36:52.920]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, if you're interested in a reverse directory listing, in other words, if you give me the phone number, I can, uh, give you the name and the address of the person.
[36:52.920 --> 37:01.400]  [SPEAKER_10]: If it is listed, the number is, uh, 718-379-4276, and you just leave a message, and I will get back to you.
[37:01.540 --> 37:03.180]  [SPEAKER_19]: And this is for anywhere in the United States?
[37:03.360 --> 37:03.680]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yes.
[37:04.000 --> 37:04.940]  [SPEAKER_10]: Anywhere in the United States.
[37:04.940 --> 37:09.980]  [SPEAKER_10]: There's over 70 million listings I have access to right on my, uh, computer here.
[37:10.140 --> 37:10.420]  [SPEAKER_19]: Uh-huh.
[37:10.900 --> 37:15.360]  [SPEAKER_19]: And, uh, can you tell us what, the, the name of the CD company that puts this out?
[37:15.480 --> 37:15.720]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yes.
[37:15.840 --> 37:17.760]  [SPEAKER_10]: The name of the CD company is ProCD.
[37:19.180 --> 37:22.420]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, um, the name of the software is called ProPhone.
[37:22.880 --> 37:23.300]  [SPEAKER_14]: Uh-huh.
[37:23.680 --> 37:28.100]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay, if, uh, I have, uh, some of this in front of me now.
[37:28.300 --> 37:35.640]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, the phone number for ProCD is 617-631-9200.
[37:36.600 --> 37:40.320]  [SPEAKER_10]: And they're at 8 Doakes Lane in Little Harbor.
[37:40.620 --> 37:45.540]  [SPEAKER_10]: Um, that's Marblehead MA, uh, 01945.
[37:46.300 --> 37:48.160]  [SPEAKER_19]: Okay, and how many CDs does this come on?
[37:48.300 --> 37:52.100]  [SPEAKER_10]: It comes, uh, 6 CDs and the 7th CD, which is Business.
[37:52.640 --> 37:55.120]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, I, I think, I'm not sure about the 7th CD.
[37:55.800 --> 37:59.700]  [SPEAKER_10]: You know, I think, I think it's all of the United States also and only business listings.
[37:59.940 --> 38:03.620]  [SPEAKER_10]: But also there are businesses listed on the other 6 CDs.
[38:03.840 --> 38:04.080]  [SPEAKER_19]: Uh-huh.
[38:04.200 --> 38:04.360]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh-huh.
[38:04.360 --> 38:06.740]  [SPEAKER_10]: But that 7th is, uh, only for business.
[38:06.740 --> 38:14.120]  [SPEAKER_19]: See, that's incredible because I know only a couple of years ago NYNEX was offering something for their, only the NYNEX area for about $10,000.
[38:14.680 --> 38:15.080]  [SPEAKER_10]: Right.
[38:15.080 --> 38:18.140]  [SPEAKER_10]: I know you was mentioning something like that, um, to me.
[38:18.560 --> 38:27.020]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, and as a matter of fact, I was looking in the computer shopper the other day in the back at some of the classifieds.
[38:27.020 --> 38:36.560]  [SPEAKER_10]: And somebody had an ad in there wanted, uh, computer directory listings on CD or other media.
[38:37.140 --> 38:38.760]  [SPEAKER_10]: So I figured, hey, you know, I got it.
[38:38.860 --> 38:39.520]  [SPEAKER_10]: Call them up.
[38:39.680 --> 38:43.700]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, uh, it turns out that, uh, beeper.
[38:43.960 --> 38:46.320]  [SPEAKER_10]: It turns out that, um...
[38:46.320 --> 38:46.700]  [SPEAKER_19]: Uh-oh.
[38:46.880 --> 38:47.580]  [SPEAKER_19]: That's my battery.
[38:47.860 --> 38:48.320]  [SPEAKER_10]: Oh, okay.
[38:48.740 --> 38:48.940]  [SPEAKER_19]: Yeah.
[38:49.120 --> 38:49.320]  [SPEAKER_19]: Okay.
[38:49.520 --> 38:49.920]  [SPEAKER_10]: Beeps.
[38:51.020 --> 38:51.420]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
[38:51.680 --> 38:59.820]  [SPEAKER_10]: It, it turns out that, um, they already had a copy of Profone, but they, there's a few other companies mentioned that are doing the same thing.
[38:59.940 --> 39:02.400]  [SPEAKER_10]: I think Profone is the least expensive.
[39:02.760 --> 39:03.200]  [SPEAKER_19]: Uh-huh.
[39:04.120 --> 39:05.440]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, uh, it's a good program.
[39:05.720 --> 39:06.000]  [SPEAKER_19]: Okay.
[39:06.100 --> 39:08.960]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, I'm sure, uh, a lot of our listeners will be interested in pursuing that.
[39:09.000 --> 39:11.420]  [SPEAKER_19]: Uh, but, yeah, information is becoming pretty cheap, isn't it?
[39:11.600 --> 39:11.780]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
[39:12.000 --> 39:12.320]  [SPEAKER_10]: Definitely.
[39:12.740 --> 39:13.040]  [SPEAKER_10]: Definitely.
[39:13.240 --> 39:19.900]  [SPEAKER_10]: Also, I, I, I work downtown and I like to go pick up a copy of it, uh, of the 2600 before the next meeting.
[39:20.400 --> 39:23.780]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, it should be in, uh, bookstores within, say, 10 days, I'd say.
[39:23.940 --> 39:26.660]  [SPEAKER_10]: And could you tell me a specific bookstore where I can get it?
[39:26.880 --> 39:30.720]  [SPEAKER_19]: Uh, well, there's Tower, there's, um, St. Mark's, I believe, Hudson.
[39:32.590 --> 39:34.720]  [SPEAKER_10]: Tower, Hudson, St. Mark's.
[39:34.820 --> 39:36.320]  [SPEAKER_10]: And all of these are in the village?
[39:36.480 --> 39:39.680]  [SPEAKER_10]: There's none up further, like, by 20-something street that will have it?
[39:39.880 --> 39:42.820]  [SPEAKER_19]: Uh, you see, I don't really keep track myself, so I don't really know.
[39:43.240 --> 39:43.520]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh-huh.
[39:43.560 --> 39:43.900]  [SPEAKER_10]: What was that?
[39:43.960 --> 39:44.880]  [SPEAKER_10]: Tower, Hudson, and what else?
[39:45.300 --> 39:46.760]  [SPEAKER_19]: Um, St. Mark's.
[39:46.900 --> 39:48.020]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay, St. Mark's.
[39:48.520 --> 39:49.020]  [SPEAKER_19]: There's others.
[39:49.080 --> 39:51.720]  [SPEAKER_19]: I just don't keep track of that particular aspect of it all.
[39:51.880 --> 39:52.460]  [SPEAKER_10]: I didn't see that.
[39:52.460 --> 39:57.180]  [SPEAKER_10]: I don't even have to call, um, AT&T Information and give it my 40 cents.
[39:57.240 --> 39:59.240]  [SPEAKER_10]: I could just pop in the CD and look them up.
[39:59.340 --> 39:59.720]  [SPEAKER_19]: That's right.
[39:59.880 --> 40:00.260]  [SPEAKER_19]: That's right.
[40:00.440 --> 40:02.260]  [SPEAKER_19]: If that alone, you'd save a lot of money with.
[40:02.360 --> 40:02.520]  [SPEAKER_19]: True.
[40:03.000 --> 40:04.060]  [SPEAKER_19]: Okay, listen, thanks for calling.
[40:04.200 --> 40:04.660]  [SPEAKER_13]: Take it easy.
[40:04.860 --> 40:05.040]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay.
[40:05.720 --> 40:13.680]  [SPEAKER_19]: Just goes to show you, you know, a couple of years ago, $10,000 you'd have to pay for CDs from, uh, NYNEX that listed, uh, everybody in their area.
[40:13.760 --> 40:16.200]  [SPEAKER_19]: Now you can get the whole country for only a couple hundred bucks.
[40:17.880 --> 40:18.940]  [SPEAKER_19]: Technology moves on.
[40:19.060 --> 40:19.380]  [SPEAKER_19]: Good evening.
[40:19.920 --> 40:21.060]  [SPEAKER_19]: Oh, dial tone.
[40:21.160 --> 40:21.580]  [SPEAKER_19]: How about that?
[40:21.740 --> 40:22.060]  [SPEAKER_19]: Good evening.
[40:22.960 --> 40:23.280]  [SPEAKER_18]: How you doing?
[40:23.520 --> 40:24.080]  [SPEAKER_19]: Okay, how are you?
[40:24.600 --> 40:25.960]  [SPEAKER_18]: All right, let me, uh, let me turn down the radio.
[40:26.100 --> 40:27.020]  [SPEAKER_19]: Yeah, turn down the radio.
[40:27.860 --> 40:33.820]  [SPEAKER_18]: Um, I, I, I call, I got cut off about, I'd say, at least five times waiting, waiting for you to answer.
[40:33.880 --> 40:35.440]  [SPEAKER_18]: I wonder if that's WBAI or the phone company.
[40:35.520 --> 40:36.840]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, how do you get cut off?
[40:37.040 --> 40:38.340]  [SPEAKER_19]: It just rings and then what?
[40:38.780 --> 40:43.300]  [SPEAKER_18]: Rings, I'd say, maybe 40 to 50, maybe 40 times, and then clicks and I'm gone.
[40:43.300 --> 40:44.760]  [SPEAKER_19]: Where are you calling from?
[40:44.960 --> 40:45.460]  [SPEAKER_18]: In the Bronx.
[40:45.660 --> 40:46.320]  [SPEAKER_19]: You're in the Bronx.
[40:46.480 --> 40:53.740]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, it's possible New York Telephone is, um, is doing something new as far as, uh, cutting people off after a certain number of rings.
[40:53.980 --> 40:54.100]  [SPEAKER_19]: Right.
[40:54.440 --> 40:56.840]  [SPEAKER_19]: Uh, it's possible our Switch is doing it, but it never did it before.
[40:57.060 --> 41:01.500]  [SPEAKER_19]: I know people in New Jersey have that problem because they use AT&T and that only allows a certain number of rings.
[41:01.740 --> 41:02.620]  [SPEAKER_18]: I hope that's not it.
[41:02.940 --> 41:03.900]  [SPEAKER_18]: I'll get cut off every time.
[41:04.180 --> 41:16.740]  [SPEAKER_18]: Anyway, point, uh, I have a 13-year-old boy and, uh, we have a, we have a PC and he belongs to, uh, America Online and he really enjoys it, but it gets into a lot of money.
[41:17.940 --> 41:20.960]  [SPEAKER_18]: And, um, two things.
[41:21.100 --> 41:23.940]  [SPEAKER_18]: I'd like, you know, is there a cheat, like, can you get on the Internet?
[41:24.320 --> 41:26.240]  [SPEAKER_18]: Would the Internet be fun for a kid?
[41:26.580 --> 41:27.760]  [SPEAKER_18]: Can he learn from it?
[41:28.060 --> 41:29.300]  [SPEAKER_18]: And that's the first part.
[41:29.420 --> 41:37.940]  [SPEAKER_18]: And secondly, would you have, uh, I'm not sure the list, but are there books you would recommend for somebody like myself and my son?
[41:38.060 --> 41:39.940]  [SPEAKER_18]: We're both, you know, basically PC novices.
[41:40.280 --> 41:40.560]  [SPEAKER_19]: Uh-huh.
[41:40.900 --> 41:43.660]  [SPEAKER_18]: And with, you know, I mean, I'd like to know it inside out.
[41:43.920 --> 41:44.100]  [SPEAKER_19]: Yeah.
[41:44.280 --> 41:50.080]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, again, um, if you head down to one of those, any bookstore, really, and look for things like, uh, the Internet companion.
[41:50.340 --> 41:53.400]  [SPEAKER_19]: I know that's, uh, that's a good guide to all the services that are on the Internet.
[41:53.800 --> 41:53.980]  [SPEAKER_19]: Uh-huh.
[41:54.120 --> 41:58.800]  [SPEAKER_19]: Through that, you can also find cheap public UNIX systems that will allow you access to the, uh, to the Internet.
[41:58.960 --> 42:00.600]  [SPEAKER_19]: Because you're right, America Online is expensive.
[42:01.280 --> 42:05.120]  [SPEAKER_19]: CompuServe, uh, all those commercial services run into a lot of money.
[42:05.820 --> 42:12.020]  [SPEAKER_19]: Uh, you're, you're best off using something of an educational nature, uh, such as through a school or something like that.
[42:12.280 --> 42:12.480]  [SPEAKER_19]: Uh-huh.
[42:12.480 --> 42:15.700]  [SPEAKER_19]: And then using that as a, as kind of a gateway to everything else.
[42:16.220 --> 42:16.360]  [SPEAKER_19]: Right.
[42:16.440 --> 42:17.980]  [SPEAKER_19]: And there is, there is so much out there.
[42:18.180 --> 42:22.640]  [SPEAKER_19]: You can hop around the world, literally, and... But he loves, I mean, you know, my son got a letter from a girl in California.
[42:22.880 --> 42:25.540]  [SPEAKER_18]: I mean, he was, he was, he was, you know, that was a real charge for him.
[42:25.660 --> 42:25.900]  [SPEAKER_19]: Uh-huh.
[42:26.040 --> 42:31.920]  [SPEAKER_19]: Yeah, well, he'll be getting letters from girls in, uh, Sweden, you know, and, uh, and, and Hong Kong and all kinds of places.
[42:32.160 --> 42:34.380]  [SPEAKER_19]: Because that's what the network is capable of.
[42:34.500 --> 42:38.220]  [SPEAKER_18]: Uh, and this would be, hopefully, a local call and... Oh, yeah, absolutely.
[42:38.420 --> 42:39.660]  [SPEAKER_18]: And then, uh, a...
[42:43.570 --> 42:55.510]  [SPEAKER_18]: And my second, and my second question, I mean, do you, uh, uh, I mean, I know I can just muddle through things and try to find out, but, uh, you know, I guess basically, uh, you know, we both want to be hackers, you know?
[42:55.630 --> 42:55.930]  [SPEAKER_19]: Uh-huh.
[42:56.030 --> 43:03.250]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, if you're into, uh, into experimentation, playing around and just trying things out to see what will happen, that's, that's what hacking is.
[43:03.710 --> 43:07.010]  [SPEAKER_19]: And if you're not afraid to do that, then, uh, I think you'll learn quite a bit.
[43:07.250 --> 43:09.590]  [SPEAKER_19]: Uh, but definitely check out some books.
[43:09.690 --> 43:15.190]  [SPEAKER_19]: I don't recommend taking courses because they tend to be, unless you take a non-traditional course, they tend to be rather stultifying.
[43:15.650 --> 43:19.250]  [SPEAKER_19]: And, uh, they spend more time telling you what not to do rather than what you can do.
[43:19.390 --> 43:22.210]  [SPEAKER_18]: I've taken several courses and they've been exactly that.
[43:22.350 --> 43:22.510]  [SPEAKER_19]: Yeah.
[43:22.650 --> 43:28.230]  [SPEAKER_19]: The best thing you can do is just get online and play around and experiment and just, you know, have fun.
[43:28.350 --> 43:29.150]  [SPEAKER_19]: That's really what it's all about.
[43:29.310 --> 43:34.890]  [SPEAKER_19]: And you can't really have fun when, when the clock is ticking and you know that every minute you're spending another 40 cents or something.
[43:35.310 --> 43:41.530]  [SPEAKER_19]: You have to be able to sit back and not worry about the phone, not worry about the computer services, and just sort of, you know, plot around.
[43:41.670 --> 43:44.150]  [SPEAKER_19]: Imagine if you, if your personal computer charged you by the minute.
[43:44.430 --> 43:44.690]  [SPEAKER_19]: Yeah.
[43:44.890 --> 43:46.130]  [SPEAKER_19]: You'd never want to turn it on.
[43:46.370 --> 43:46.630]  [SPEAKER_19]: Sure.
[43:46.790 --> 43:49.130]  [SPEAKER_19]: So that's, that's why you need a service that's something like that.
[43:49.450 --> 43:55.550]  [SPEAKER_18]: Finally, I'm not, you know, I know you may not have an answer to this, but I mean, is there a language?
[43:55.770 --> 43:56.610]  [SPEAKER_18]: Is there an application?
[43:56.910 --> 44:05.170]  [SPEAKER_18]: Is there something that could get us started, you know, on to, on to being, you know, as fluent in you as you and your friends on the topic?
[44:05.410 --> 44:13.490]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, you know, the funny thing is, um, we may seem like we're fluent in everything, but, uh, you know, certain people are fluent in one thing and totally illiterate in another.
[44:13.690 --> 44:14.990]  [SPEAKER_19]: You don't have to be fluent in everything.
[44:15.170 --> 44:22.550]  [SPEAKER_19]: You just have to be, you know, some people are more interested in phones, some people are more interested in programming, some people are more interested in networks and personal computers.
[44:23.310 --> 44:32.210]  [SPEAKER_19]: Um, if, if you want to really, uh, get So far on the Internet, I would recommend Learning C, which is a programming language, and Learning UNIX, which is an operating system.
[44:32.750 --> 44:38.890]  [SPEAKER_19]: If you have those two down, or even just a rudimentary knowledge of the two, you'll be able to understand quite a bit.
[44:39.170 --> 44:39.510]  [SPEAKER_18]: Great.
[44:39.770 --> 44:43.490]  [SPEAKER_19]: But don't be afraid to ask questions and make mistakes, because that's what it's all about, too.
[44:43.550 --> 44:44.570]  [SPEAKER_18]: What's the next 2600 meeting?
[44:45.050 --> 44:47.230]  [SPEAKER_19]: Next meeting will be the first Friday of July.
[44:47.530 --> 44:48.650]  [SPEAKER_18]: And that will be where?
[44:48.790 --> 44:52.630]  [SPEAKER_19]: At the CityCore Center between 5 and 8 p.m., right there in the lobby by the pay funds.
[44:53.010 --> 44:53.610]  [SPEAKER_18]: Okay, take care.
[44:53.750 --> 44:54.710]  [SPEAKER_19]: All right, thanks for calling.
[44:55.410 --> 44:59.590]  [SPEAKER_19]: And on the subject of meetings, you know, we have meetings in other places as well now.
[44:59.670 --> 45:06.630]  [SPEAKER_19]: We have meetings up in Poughkeepsie, the South Hills Mall off Route 9, by the payphones, in front of, where else?
[45:06.750 --> 45:08.550]  [SPEAKER_19]: Radio Shack, next to the food court.
[45:08.650 --> 45:09.670]  [SPEAKER_19]: That's up there in Poughkeepsie.
[45:10.250 --> 45:12.410]  [SPEAKER_19]: And we also have meetings in Philadelphia.
[45:13.190 --> 45:15.030]  [SPEAKER_19]: That might be within our listening area.
[45:15.810 --> 45:21.470]  [SPEAKER_19]: Right there on the 30th Street, Amtrak Station, 30th and Market, under the Stairwell 7 sign.
[45:22.830 --> 45:28.070]  [SPEAKER_19]: And Danbury, Connecticut, Danbury Fair Mall off exit 4 of I-84 in the food court.
[45:28.150 --> 45:30.950]  [SPEAKER_19]: Those all happen on the first Friday of the month between 5 and 8 p.m.
[45:31.490 --> 45:33.930]  [SPEAKER_19]: And there's meetings all over the country, all over the world, in fact.
[45:35.070 --> 45:39.950]  [SPEAKER_19]: But we probably don't have any listeners in those particular areas, so we won't get into that.
[45:39.950 --> 45:47.670]  [SPEAKER_19]: But speaking of different parts of the world, there is an interesting event happening this August.
[45:47.670 --> 45:50.310]  [SPEAKER_19]: It's called Hacking at the End of the Universe.
[45:51.450 --> 45:57.910]  [SPEAKER_19]: It's called an Intense Summer Congress, and that's spelled I-N-T-E-N-T-S.
[45:58.250 --> 46:01.310]  [SPEAKER_19]: The reason being that people are going to be inside tents.
[46:01.470 --> 46:04.930]  [SPEAKER_19]: It's sort of like a camping expedition, but somehow it's going to include computer hacking as well.
[46:04.930 --> 46:12.410]  [SPEAKER_19]: It's something that both Hack-Tic and 2600 Magazine are presenting, Hack-Tic being the Dutch hacker magazine over in Amsterdam.
[46:13.370 --> 46:15.970]  [SPEAKER_19]: I'll read you some of what they have to say about this.
[46:16.050 --> 46:18.510]  [SPEAKER_19]: Remember the Galactic Hacker Party back in 1989?
[46:18.970 --> 46:21.170]  [SPEAKER_19]: Ever wondered what happened to the people behind it?
[46:21.250 --> 46:22.850]  [SPEAKER_19]: We sold out the big business, you think?
[46:23.070 --> 46:23.650]  [SPEAKER_19]: Think again.
[46:23.810 --> 46:24.290]  [SPEAKER_19]: We're back.
[46:24.290 --> 46:25.070]  [SPEAKER_19]: That's right.
[46:25.150 --> 46:40.770]  [SPEAKER_19]: On August 4th, 5th, and 6th, we're organizing a three-day summer congress for hackers, phone freaks, programmers, computer haters, data travelers, electro-wizards, networkers, hardware freaks, techno-anarchists, communications junkies, cyberpunks, system managers,
[46:40.990 --> 46:56.950]  [SPEAKER_19]: stupid users, paranoid androids, UNIX gurus, whiz kids, whiz kids, wares dudes, law enforcement officers, appropriate undercover dress required, guerrilla heating engineers, and other assorted bald-slash-long-haired and or unshaven scum.
[46:57.590 --> 46:59.250]  [SPEAKER_19]: And all this in the middle of nowhere.
[46:59.570 --> 47:01.970]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, the middle of Holland, actually, but that's the same thing.
[47:02.150 --> 47:05.650]  [SPEAKER_19]: At the Las Serbas campground four meters below sea level.
[47:05.650 --> 47:22.690]  [SPEAKER_19]: The three days will be filled with lectures, discussions, and workshops on hacking, freaking, people's networks, UNIX security risks, virtual reality, semifun, social engineering, mag strips, lockpicking, viruses, paranoia, legal sanctions against hacking in Holland and elsewhere,
[47:23.010 --> 47:24.630]  [SPEAKER_19]: and much, much more.
[47:25.510 --> 47:27.790]  [SPEAKER_19]: English is the official language for the event.
[47:28.070 --> 47:30.110]  [SPEAKER_19]: Some workshops may take place in Dutch.
[47:30.110 --> 47:36.610]  [SPEAKER_19]: There will be an Internet connection, an Internet Ethernet, and social interaction, both electronic and live.
[47:37.330 --> 47:40.330]  [SPEAKER_19]: Included in the price are four nights in your own tent.
[47:40.330 --> 47:49.870]  [SPEAKER_19]: Also included are inspiration, transpiration, a shortage of showers, but a lake to swim in, good weather guaranteed by God, campfires, and plenty of wide-open space and fresh air.
[47:50.550 --> 47:53.010]  [SPEAKER_19]: And it all costs around $70 U.S. dollars.
[47:54.250 --> 47:56.630]  [SPEAKER_19]: Got to register by July 15, 1993.
[47:57.310 --> 47:59.930]  [SPEAKER_19]: I'll give you some phone numbers and addresses.
[48:00.110 --> 48:01.810]  [SPEAKER_19]: So you can work this out.
[48:03.450 --> 48:05.310]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, you can write to them at Hack-Tic.
[48:05.350 --> 48:09.670]  [SPEAKER_19]: I don't recommend this because the mails are kind of slow, and that's just the way it is.
[48:09.950 --> 48:10.970]  [SPEAKER_19]: Hack-Tic, P.O. Box 22953, 1100 DL, Amsterdam, the Netherlands.
[48:17.010 --> 48:19.470]  [SPEAKER_19]: You know, this is one of these nights where they just won't leave you alone.
[48:21.990 --> 48:22.430]  [SPEAKER_19]: Okay.
[48:23.930 --> 48:29.630]  [SPEAKER_19]: And the telephone number, if you want to speak to somebody, is country code 31, city code 20.
[48:30.270 --> 48:32.870]  [SPEAKER_19]: Phone number 6001480.
[48:33.210 --> 48:36.030]  [SPEAKER_19]: Now, of course, if you're calling overseas, you dial 011 in front of that.
[48:36.210 --> 48:38.970]  [SPEAKER_19]: Again, country code 31, city code 20.
[48:42.990 --> 48:43.870]  [SPEAKER_19]: Number 6001480.
[48:45.230 --> 48:46.150]  [SPEAKER_19]: Oh, that's too bad.
[48:46.250 --> 48:48.550]  [SPEAKER_19]: You know, this is a flaw with this beeper here.
[48:49.370 --> 48:52.270]  [SPEAKER_19]: When the battery gets really, really low, it wipes everything.
[48:52.410 --> 48:57.110]  [SPEAKER_19]: So now, all those people that were beeping me, I hope you're listening because I just lost all those numbers.
[48:58.090 --> 48:58.910]  [SPEAKER_19]: What a tragedy.
[48:59.590 --> 49:00.210]  [SPEAKER_19]: Oh, wow.
[49:00.570 --> 49:01.950]  [SPEAKER_19]: Some of them looked like they were important, too.
[49:02.590 --> 49:06.030]  [SPEAKER_19]: If you have a fax machine and you want to fax these people, well, you can do that, too.
[49:06.610 --> 49:07.630]  [SPEAKER_19]: Again, it's overseas.
[49:08.010 --> 49:08.730]  [SPEAKER_19]: City code...
[49:08.730 --> 49:09.810]  [SPEAKER_19]: Why do I keep saying that?
[49:09.890 --> 49:11.670]  [SPEAKER_19]: Country code 31, city code 20.
[49:12.270 --> 49:14.710]  [SPEAKER_19]: Telephone number 6900968.
[49:16.050 --> 49:17.750]  [SPEAKER_19]: That's if you want to fax something to them.
[49:17.750 --> 49:29.370]  [SPEAKER_19]: And if you want to email, use the Internet, their email address is heu, that's like hacking end of universe, heu at hacktic.nl.
[49:29.470 --> 49:35.190]  [SPEAKER_19]: Hack-Tic is spelled H-A-C-K-T-I-C, and N-L is spelled N-L.
[49:36.190 --> 49:38.070]  [SPEAKER_19]: So, that ought to be interesting.
[49:38.210 --> 49:42.290]  [SPEAKER_19]: If it's anything like the Galactic Hacker Party, it's an inspirational event.
[49:42.310 --> 49:51.650]  [SPEAKER_19]: I know I went to the Galactic Hacker Party and I just came back completely enthused because, I don't know, the people in Holland just had the spirit that the people in America seem to have lost.
[49:51.810 --> 49:54.830]  [SPEAKER_19]: And I think we need to go over there every now and then and get kind of recharged.
[49:55.690 --> 49:59.210]  [SPEAKER_19]: So, again, that's happening on the 4th, 5th, and 6th of August.
[49:59.670 --> 50:01.650]  [SPEAKER_19]: Deadline for registration, July 15th.
[50:02.630 --> 50:04.850]  [SPEAKER_19]: If anybody goes over there, please let us know how it is.
[50:04.870 --> 50:07.770]  [SPEAKER_19]: Some of us might be over there, too, so maybe we'll see you there.
[50:08.250 --> 50:09.350]  [SPEAKER_19]: Okay, let's get back to the phones.
[50:09.470 --> 50:11.210]  [SPEAKER_19]: 212-279-3400.
[50:11.370 --> 50:11.630]  [SPEAKER_19]: Good evening.
[50:11.790 --> 50:12.470]  [SPEAKER_19]: You're on Off the Hook.
[50:12.890 --> 50:13.210]  [SPEAKER_17]: Hello?
[50:13.430 --> 50:13.790]  [SPEAKER_19]: How you doing?
[50:14.250 --> 50:14.550]  [SPEAKER_17]: All right.
[50:14.650 --> 50:17.030]  [SPEAKER_17]: I recently went to purchase a cellular phone.
[50:17.030 --> 50:18.570]  [SPEAKER_17]: It advertised for $99.
[50:19.370 --> 50:21.110]  [SPEAKER_17]: So when I went down there, the guy...
[50:21.110 --> 50:24.570]  [SPEAKER_17]: I didn't want any connections, so why did he tell me I have to pay an extra $300?
[50:25.530 --> 50:27.630]  [SPEAKER_19]: I'm sorry, they charged you $300 for what?
[50:27.990 --> 50:28.290]  [SPEAKER_17]: All right.
[50:28.670 --> 50:30.730]  [SPEAKER_17]: The cellular phone is advertised for $99.
[50:31.450 --> 50:35.990]  [SPEAKER_17]: So I wanted to buy it, but I didn't want any connection, so he charged me an extra $300.
[50:36.790 --> 50:39.430]  [SPEAKER_19]: He charged you $300 not to have it connected?
[50:39.670 --> 50:40.730]  [SPEAKER_17]: Because it wasn't connected.
[50:40.910 --> 50:44.490]  [SPEAKER_17]: He said it requires a deposit, and if you don't have a deposit, you have to pay the $300
[50:47.890 --> 50:53.830]  [SPEAKER_19]: I'll tell you, you know, I've never gotten involved with cellular phones, and this is another reason why I don't have any interest in getting involved in them.
[50:53.970 --> 50:58.850]  [SPEAKER_19]: I have no idea why they're charging you not to connect your phone.
[50:58.950 --> 51:01.830]  [SPEAKER_19]: I mean, they advertise... I mean, you've bought the phone, right?
[51:01.830 --> 51:02.670]  [SPEAKER_19]: The phone is yours.
[51:02.850 --> 51:03.490]  [SPEAKER_19]: I just bought it.
[51:03.590 --> 51:04.290]  [SPEAKER_19]: At that price.
[51:04.410 --> 51:05.510]  [SPEAKER_19]: $99 is what you said?
[51:05.610 --> 51:08.070]  [SPEAKER_17]: No, I paid the $300 they asked for.
[51:08.250 --> 51:10.190]  [SPEAKER_19]: Okay, but originally, what did they advertise it as?
[51:10.310 --> 51:10.670]  [SPEAKER_17]: $99.
[51:11.070 --> 51:11.430]  [SPEAKER_19]: $99.
[51:11.630 --> 51:13.590]  [SPEAKER_19]: So that was the cost of the phone, they said?
[51:13.730 --> 51:14.090]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yes.
[51:14.490 --> 51:18.550]  [SPEAKER_19]: But then they went and said, oh, you have to pay $300 now because you're not getting it connected.
[51:18.750 --> 51:18.930]  [SPEAKER_13]: Right.
[51:19.850 --> 51:23.070]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, that's not a kosher thing to do, I don't think.
[51:23.270 --> 51:31.150]  [SPEAKER_19]: What they wanted you to do was hook up to their network and pay them connection charges and things like that, and when they found out you weren't going to do that, they must have charged you some kind of penalty.
[51:31.690 --> 51:32.530]  [SPEAKER_17]: So I should take it back?
[51:33.090 --> 51:38.830]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, I don't recommend doing business with companies that deceive you like that, and that's pretty much what they did.
[51:39.010 --> 51:40.590]  [SPEAKER_17]: I thought it was standard because...
[51:40.590 --> 51:41.570]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, maybe it is standard.
[51:41.570 --> 51:47.190]  [SPEAKER_19]: You see, I don't really follow the cellular industry all that much, and it could very well be standard, but that doesn't make it all right.
[51:47.630 --> 51:47.950]  [SPEAKER_17]: All right.
[51:48.030 --> 51:48.810]  [SPEAKER_17]: Also, another question.
[51:49.030 --> 51:52.090]  [SPEAKER_17]: I have a computer, 486 local bus computer.
[51:52.290 --> 51:52.630]  [SPEAKER_14]: Uh-huh.
[51:52.750 --> 51:54.210]  [SPEAKER_17]: It's running at 33 megahertz.
[51:54.450 --> 51:54.810]  [SPEAKER_14]: Uh-huh.
[51:54.810 --> 52:01.410]  [SPEAKER_17]: And I have four IDI hard disks, and I wanted to know how come the SCSI card, it won't work with it.
[52:02.130 --> 52:03.870]  [SPEAKER_19]: Uh, that's something I really don't know.
[52:03.990 --> 52:06.170]  [SPEAKER_19]: That's not my expertise there.
[52:06.210 --> 52:10.130]  [SPEAKER_19]: Either the personal computer people could help you, or they're on before us, or, uh...
[52:10.130 --> 52:12.630]  [SPEAKER_19]: I don't know, Phiber Optik, if it makes it in here, maybe he'll be able to answer that.
[52:12.750 --> 52:14.010]  [SPEAKER_19]: But, um...
[52:14.010 --> 52:16.070]  [SPEAKER_19]: I suggest calling the personal computer people.
[52:16.410 --> 52:17.190]  [SPEAKER_17]: Okay, thank you.
[52:17.190 --> 52:18.010]  [SPEAKER_19]: Okay, good luck.
[52:19.350 --> 52:25.070]  [SPEAKER_19]: Yeah, we're strictly phones and computer systems and Big Brother and things like that, you know?
[52:25.170 --> 52:25.510]  [SPEAKER_19]: Good evening.
[52:26.110 --> 52:26.910]  [SPEAKER_16]: Uh, hello, Emmanuel.
[52:27.090 --> 52:27.370]  [SPEAKER_19]: How you doing?
[52:27.490 --> 52:33.210]  [SPEAKER_16]: A couple weeks ago, you gave a number for how to sidestep the AT&T cutoff on, you know, when we're calling.
[52:33.670 --> 52:37.270]  [SPEAKER_16]: You know, when there's a timer that after a while that you call on.
[52:37.270 --> 52:38.270]  [SPEAKER_19]: That's right, yes.
[52:38.510 --> 52:39.550]  [SPEAKER_19]: Can you give that to me now?
[52:39.770 --> 52:43.130]  [SPEAKER_19]: Um, okay, let me think I can remember that.
[52:43.270 --> 52:46.690]  [SPEAKER_19]: Uh, I believe it's, uh, 800-321-0-ATT.
[52:47.190 --> 52:48.870]  [SPEAKER_16]: Let's see, 800, what, 321?
[52:49.650 --> 52:51.390]  [SPEAKER_19]: 800-321-0-ATT.
[52:51.850 --> 52:52.550]  [SPEAKER_19]: 0-ATT.
[52:52.590 --> 52:53.170]  [SPEAKER_19]: That's right, isn't it?
[52:53.230 --> 52:58.630]  [SPEAKER_16]: Okay, now another thing is, uh, about the Clipper chip, can you briefly summarize the state of that right now?
[52:58.750 --> 53:00.170]  [SPEAKER_16]: And, like, what's the future for it?
[53:00.210 --> 53:00.990]  [SPEAKER_16]: And I'll hang up and listen.
[53:01.190 --> 53:05.110]  [SPEAKER_19]: Okay, well, right now the, uh, the Clinton administration has kind of put it on hold.
[53:05.270 --> 53:08.610]  [SPEAKER_19]: They're going and looking for more, uh, input.
[53:09.350 --> 53:12.630]  [SPEAKER_19]: Uh, which means that, uh, they've gotten wind of the concern.
[53:12.630 --> 53:13.630]  [SPEAKER_19]: I'll put it mildly.
[53:13.630 --> 53:27.890]  [SPEAKER_19]: The concern that people have voiced towards, uh, this chip that would be the, uh, data encryption standard would allow governmental agencies to, um, uh, to, well, decrypt anything that you decide to encrypt if they get a search warrant to do so.
[53:27.890 --> 53:33.290]  [SPEAKER_19]: A lot of people seem to feel that, uh, they're not all that comfortable with the government agency having that power.
[53:33.430 --> 53:34.970]  [SPEAKER_19]: And it is an all-encompassing power.
[53:35.190 --> 53:36.270]  [SPEAKER_19]: Something they don't have now.
[53:36.410 --> 53:37.350]  [SPEAKER_19]: Something they've never had before.
[53:37.490 --> 53:40.010]  [SPEAKER_19]: And something that if they get, they're certainly never going to get rid of.
[53:40.710 --> 53:51.350]  [SPEAKER_19]: Um, now, at the hearing that I mentioned, uh, last week, uh, where I was, um, I guess defending the First Amendment, uh, because it sort of turned into a, uh, a trial of hackers.
[53:51.350 --> 53:56.070]  [SPEAKER_19]: It was originally supposed to be, uh, getting our opinion, but instead we had to justify our existence.
[53:56.510 --> 53:58.450]  [SPEAKER_19]: But before that, there was another hearing.
[53:58.610 --> 54:00.290]  [SPEAKER_19]: There was another panel on the clipper chip.
[54:00.790 --> 54:07.470]  [SPEAKER_19]: And one of the proponents of the clipper chip, Dorothy Denning, was, uh, kind of put on the spot by, uh, the same, uh, representatives.
[54:08.050 --> 54:11.690]  [SPEAKER_19]: And they asked her what I thought was a, was a pretty, uh, a pretty fair question.
[54:11.690 --> 54:17.290]  [SPEAKER_19]: And maybe it wasn't particularly fair to get her to answer it, because, uh, it really wasn't her idea.
[54:17.510 --> 54:25.990]  [SPEAKER_19]: But the question was, well, what federal agency would you recommend that the American public would have faith in to hold on to these keys?
[54:26.330 --> 54:36.590]  [SPEAKER_19]: In other words, what, what entity does the American people trust enough to, uh, hang on to something that is so private that could decrypt anything that they encrypt?
[54:37.250 --> 54:38.510]  [SPEAKER_19]: Is it the NSA?
[54:38.870 --> 54:39.230]  [SPEAKER_19]: No?
[54:39.630 --> 54:40.570]  [SPEAKER_19]: Maybe the FBI?
[54:41.010 --> 54:42.110]  [SPEAKER_19]: Maybe the Secret Service?
[54:42.350 --> 54:42.930]  [SPEAKER_19]: Who then?
[54:43.190 --> 54:46.590]  [SPEAKER_19]: You know, nobody, nobody will pass that test.
[54:46.910 --> 54:55.650]  [SPEAKER_19]: And I think that demonstrates right there that the American people, um, well, I don't know if they're, they're paranoid, but they certainly aren't going to just trust somebody because they're told to trust somebody.
[54:55.750 --> 54:59.390]  [SPEAKER_19]: And that way we've, we've grown up quite a bit over the past, uh, couple of decades.
[55:00.230 --> 55:03.170]  [SPEAKER_19]: So, um, for that reason in itself, the plan is flawed.
[55:03.170 --> 55:08.610]  [SPEAKER_19]: I don't see how you're going to, uh, get people to agree to just hand over their keys.
[55:08.890 --> 55:16.510]  [SPEAKER_19]: Imagine if, uh, a federal agency said, we just want copies of everybody's house keys, you know, just so that, uh, you know, we need to get in, we can get in.
[55:16.750 --> 55:20.810]  [SPEAKER_19]: I mean, people won't even give their local police department or fire department copies of their house keys.
[55:21.810 --> 55:23.570]  [SPEAKER_19]: Sometimes even members of your own family.
[55:23.710 --> 55:24.990]  [SPEAKER_19]: You know, it's, it's, it's a private thing.
[55:25.110 --> 55:26.970]  [SPEAKER_19]: You want to keep things that are private, private.
[55:27.210 --> 55:27.810]  [SPEAKER_19]: You know, it's simple.
[55:28.310 --> 55:30.730]  [SPEAKER_19]: I'm sure eventually Congress will understand that.
[55:30.870 --> 55:31.230]  [SPEAKER_19]: Good evening.
[55:33.510 --> 55:33.870]  [SPEAKER_11]: Hello.
[55:34.170 --> 55:34.770]  [SPEAKER_19]: Yes, go ahead.
[55:35.470 --> 55:36.090]  [SPEAKER_11]: Oh, okay.
[55:36.270 --> 55:36.970]  [SPEAKER_11]: We're on delay there.
[55:37.150 --> 55:37.630]  [SPEAKER_19]: Yes, we are.
[55:37.930 --> 55:38.190]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay.
[55:38.430 --> 55:39.090]  [SPEAKER_11]: You know, it's interesting.
[55:39.090 --> 55:43.830]  [SPEAKER_11]: I had to redial you at least about, uh, five, six times because I got cut off too calling you from Queens.
[55:44.030 --> 55:44.330]  [SPEAKER_19]: Really?
[55:44.430 --> 55:47.410]  [SPEAKER_19]: So this is, uh, apparently something new that New York Telephone is installing.
[55:47.510 --> 55:48.110]  [SPEAKER_19]: We'll check it out.
[55:48.210 --> 55:52.010]  [SPEAKER_19]: We'll call some, uh, no answer lines and see if they're cutting, uh, people off.
[55:52.170 --> 55:53.950]  [SPEAKER_19]: That's, that's really unfortunate if they are.
[55:54.150 --> 55:54.910]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, tell me about it.
[55:55.110 --> 55:55.310]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[55:55.610 --> 55:57.550]  [SPEAKER_11]: At least I have a redial, so at least it got me in there.
[55:57.550 --> 55:58.550]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, question.
[55:58.730 --> 56:03.490]  [SPEAKER_11]: What do you make of the, uh, answering machine services that AT&T can provide?
[56:03.990 --> 56:06.210]  [SPEAKER_19]: Uh, update me on exactly what they're saying.
[56:06.690 --> 56:13.490]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, that, for example, if I'm talking to you right now, someone's trying to reach me, and if I don't have call waiting, then they can leave a message for me.
[56:13.910 --> 56:14.310]  [SPEAKER_19]: Okay.
[56:14.690 --> 56:18.390]  [SPEAKER_11]: And I can get some sort of, uh, uh, uh, coded signal.
[56:18.670 --> 56:20.710]  [SPEAKER_19]: Are you sure this is AT&T or New York Telephone?
[56:21.030 --> 56:21.430]  [SPEAKER_11]: NYNEX.
[56:21.650 --> 56:22.130]  [SPEAKER_19]: Oh, it's NYNEX.
[56:22.190 --> 56:22.390]  [SPEAKER_19]: Okay.
[56:22.930 --> 56:28.370]  [SPEAKER_19]: Uh, yeah, that's, that's similar to, um, to various, uh, voice message systems that are being offered around the country.
[56:28.790 --> 56:32.330]  [SPEAKER_19]: Basically, if you have a message, you pick up and you get a stutter dial tone immediately.
[56:32.950 --> 56:34.850]  [SPEAKER_19]: Uh, and that tells you that you have a message.
[56:34.850 --> 56:42.030]  [SPEAKER_19]: You can call a special number to get your messages from any place, um, or you can just call from your house and enter your password.
[56:42.470 --> 56:47.730]  [SPEAKER_19]: Uh, it's nice, you know, it's nice to be able to do that, but, uh, unfortunately, it does have problems, you know?
[56:47.870 --> 56:51.330]  [SPEAKER_19]: Uh, the system goes down occasionally, and you can't access anything.
[56:51.450 --> 56:52.770]  [SPEAKER_19]: In fact, nobody can access anything.
[56:53.210 --> 56:56.450]  [SPEAKER_19]: The system can get filled up in ways that answering machines can't.
[56:56.790 --> 57:07.410]  [SPEAKER_19]: And also, the most important thing is, do you trust a company like NYNEX or, or a C&P telephone, or whatever, to, uh, to have all of your messages, to just have them there?
[57:07.630 --> 57:09.390]  [SPEAKER_11]: That's why I want to still keep my machine.
[57:09.630 --> 57:11.410]  [SPEAKER_19]: Yeah, you see, the machine is something tangible.
[57:11.830 --> 57:14.490]  [SPEAKER_19]: If somebody leaves you a message, they're leaving it to you.
[57:14.610 --> 57:16.370]  [SPEAKER_19]: You have it, you can hold it in your hands.
[57:16.750 --> 57:26.550]  [SPEAKER_19]: Uh, a voice messaging system, it's nice in some ways, but it doesn't, it doesn't really save money, because you buy an answering machine and it's over, you've bought it, uh, this is something you have to pay for month after month.
[57:26.910 --> 57:31.730]  [SPEAKER_19]: A lot of answering machines have the exact same capabilities as voicemail, a lot of them have much better capabilities.
[57:32.550 --> 57:38.770]  [SPEAKER_19]: Uh, so, you know, I would say experiment with it, but, uh, don't depend on it, because, uh, there's a lot of things that could go wrong.
[57:38.890 --> 57:42.470]  [SPEAKER_11]: One other question, it's been going on and on, but as far as the, uh, cordless phones go?
[57:42.650 --> 57:42.790]  [SPEAKER_19]: Yeah.
[57:42.930 --> 57:45.950]  [SPEAKER_11]: I had an earlier caller that was saying that you can only listen to half the conversation.
[57:46.110 --> 57:55.810]  [SPEAKER_11]: For friends that I have who use cordless phones, and I always tell them, we're basically broadcasting the telephone land, uh, can you actually hear both sides of the conversation or don't you?
[57:55.830 --> 57:56.950]  [SPEAKER_19]: Yes, you can hear both sides.
[57:57.050 --> 58:00.130]  [SPEAKER_19]: I'm not sure if you're talking about cordless inside a house or a cellular.
[58:00.350 --> 58:00.990]  [SPEAKER_11]: No, cordless.
[58:01.130 --> 58:01.970]  [SPEAKER_19]: All right, cordless, yes.
[58:02.010 --> 58:03.850]  [SPEAKER_19]: It depends on the, on the, um, on the phone.
[58:03.990 --> 58:06.710]  [SPEAKER_19]: It depends on how close you are to the actual, uh, transmitter.
[58:07.330 --> 58:11.190]  [SPEAKER_19]: Cordless, uh, I mean, I've never had a problem, uh, listening to, uh, to both ends.
[58:11.450 --> 58:24.150]  [SPEAKER_19]: Cellular, occasionally you'll only hear the person that is not on a cellular phone, because, uh, sometimes you're hearing the, uh, the actual transmitter, and that's not amplifying the signal of the person in the car.
[58:24.350 --> 58:26.970]  [SPEAKER_19]: So occasionally you'll just get one side of that conversation.
[58:27.710 --> 58:32.950]  [SPEAKER_19]: Using the information that we printed in the spring issue of 2600, you can find the other half a lot of times.
[58:33.070 --> 58:36.790]  [SPEAKER_11]: And is there a geographic range that you can no longer pick up conversations on a cordless phone?
[58:37.130 --> 58:38.290]  [SPEAKER_19]: A cordless phone, yes.
[58:38.650 --> 58:40.990]  [SPEAKER_19]: They have certain limitations.
[58:41.330 --> 58:46.610]  [SPEAKER_11]: So in other words, using your own scanner, you'll only be able to, say, pick up conversations within what sort of radius?
[58:47.490 --> 58:50.190]  [SPEAKER_19]: Several hundred feet, up to a thousand feet, maybe.
[58:50.390 --> 58:51.010]  [SPEAKER_11]: Oh, that's...
[58:51.010 --> 58:52.050]  [SPEAKER_19]: Yeah, for a cordless phone.
[58:52.130 --> 58:53.030]  [SPEAKER_19]: Cellular is miles.
[58:53.550 --> 58:53.850]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay.
[58:54.150 --> 58:54.330]  [SPEAKER_19]: Okay?
[58:54.430 --> 58:54.710]  [SPEAKER_19]: Good show.
[58:54.910 --> 58:55.730]  [SPEAKER_19]: All right, thanks for calling.
[58:55.910 --> 58:56.050]  [SPEAKER_19]: Sure.
[58:56.050 --> 59:00.010]  [SPEAKER_19]: So that's going to just about do it for us here tonight as we are out of time.
[59:00.170 --> 59:08.230]  [SPEAKER_19]: But I want to thank everybody who did call in and warn everybody that we will be back again next week with another program off the hook.
[59:08.370 --> 59:12.530]  [SPEAKER_19]: Stay tuned for the rebroadcast of the evening news.
[59:12.690 --> 59:13.510]  [SPEAKER_19]: This is Emmanuel Goldstein.