And a good evening to one and all, the program is off the hook, this is Emanuel Goldstein,
I'm back live tonight for the first time in quite some time actually, because all kinds
of fun things have been happening, and some of them are relevant to this program, some
of them are completely irrelevant to this program, regardless we're going to get into
details as to just what's been going on and of course we'll be taking phone calls at 212-279-3400.
First let's start off with our friendly Mr. Dial Tone, and call something which I think
is just fascinating, and just another example of a happier life through telephones, I mean
just when you think you've seen everything, something else comes along and surprises you,
well of course we let the phone go too long and now it's hung up on us, but let's take
a look at what's out there, we're going to dial another number, actually you know what
I did this wrong, let's, no, we have to first of all come in on the magic line like this,
okay, and that will allow us to dial out using magical touch tones, okay, here we go.
Listen carefully.
Welcome to Stony Brook's Telephone Registration System. Registrations, adds and drops, section
changes, and past no credit option changes are now being accepted for the fall 1993 term.
During this telephone call, you will be asked to respond to prompts which will allow you
to register, add courses, drop courses, or change course sections. Undergraduates will
also be allowed to add or remove the past no credit option for certain courses. If you
are calling from a touch tone telephone, please touch 1 now. If you are calling from
a rotary phone, you may use the voice recognition feature of this system. The system will recognize
the numerals 0 through 9 and the words yes and no.
Alright, we're going to touch 1 here.
Thank you. We are accepting registrations and changes for the fall semester. Please
enter your Stony Brook ID number.
Okay, we're going to enter our ID number here. Of course, we're not going to play those
little tones over the air for personal reasons.
Please enter your personal identification number.
Okay, personal identification number. Here we go.
Thank you.
You are eligible to register.
Oh boy.
If you are registering for a new semester program, please touch 1 now. If you want to
add courses to an existing registration, touch 2 now. If you want to drop courses, touch
3 now. If you want to change sections within a course, touch 4 now. If you want to add
or remove the past no credit option for one or more courses, touch 5 now. If you want
to hear a list of the courses for which you are registered for, touch 6 now. If you do
wish to make any additional changes at this time, please touch the pound or number sign.
Let's touch 6 and hear the schedule.
Thank you. You are registered for the following courses for a total of 9 credits. Computer
Science 302, Section 013, Credits. Computer Science 306, Section 013, Credits. Computer
Science 333, Section 013, Credits. Your status will be part-time if your credit load remains
unchanged at the end of the add-drop period. If you are registering for a new semester
program, please touch 1 now. If you want to add courses to an existing registration, touch
2 now.
Okay, we've heard all this. We're going to touch the pound sign and see what happens.
Thank you for calling. Classroom assignments will appear in the final schedule of classes
booklet. A copy of this booklet will be posted in the administration...
Okay, okay, we don't need to hear all that. But what's interesting here is that we were
asked for an ID number. Now guess what the ID number is? Anybody have a guess out there
what the ID number is? The ID number is your social security number. Yes, and it's not
hard to get somebody's social security number, especially when to this day the grades for
various tests and papers and final grades and all that kind of thing are posted throughout
the hallways of this particular university by social security number. You see these little
yellow pieces of paper and they have listings of SSNs with grades next to them. It's meant
to avoid any kind of embarrassment if you get a D or something. Nobody really knows
your name. But your social security number is your name and you'd better get used to
it. Oh, but there's a pin, of course. There's a pin to prevent anybody from just getting
your social security number and changing your courses and hearing what you're taking and
adding pass-no-credit and making you into a part-time student when you're a full-time
student. There is security on this system. Thank God for that. Yes, we were asked for
a six-digit pin. Month, day, and year of your birth. That's it. That's all. That's the security
right there. And let's see how long this system lasts. All right. Well, I did a rather interesting
thing this summer. Of course, the summer's not over yet, so I still might do some more
interesting things. But the first real interesting thing I did was take a little bit of a car
trip from New York to Alaska. You see, the thought was that since I had this car that
was not in the best of shape, in fact, the mechanic had already given it only a few months
to live, I figured, well, okay, let's really do it in style then. Let's drive the thing
away and make it completely work for us. So New York to Alaska seemed like a good route
to try. And a lot of interesting things to see along the way, some telephone-related,
some not telephone-related. The first real telephone adventure I had, and this was one
of the most, well, funny ones, I guess I could say here, happened in Ohio Pile, Pennsylvania.
It's a town called Ohio Pile. I don't quite know what it means, but they have an independent
phone company there. And I was in this town, and I wanted to find out the cost of a motel
the next town over, because the one in Ohio Pile was, well, it was just too high, because
it was next to the Frank Lloyd Wright House and, you know, it was a tourist trap. So I
wanted to see what the cost was in the next town over. So I figured I'd call information
and get the number for the motel in the next town over. It's not that easy. Here you would
pick up the phone and you would dial 411. All right, I pick up this phone, and I should
have known right away there was going to be a problem, because it's a GTE phone. I don't
know how many people have actually seen GTE phones. They have silver touch-tone pads.
Each key is silver, and it's kind of, it's much wider than it is high. It's about, well,
I can't really give you an accurate measurement, but it's very, they're very thin. They're
not, they don't rise up as much as the ones we're used to. They're not square. And they're
silver. And that's really the best way to tell a GTE pay phone. So I dialed 411, and
this woman answered and said, yes, hello. And I said, yes, I'm looking for the number
for the motel in the next town over. And she said, well, that's fine, but I can't help
you with that. I'm busy cooking right now, or something to that effect. She might have
been doing the wash. So I said, well, aren't you the information operator? She said, no,
I'm not the information operator. What made you think I was? I said, well, I just dialed
411, and I got you. Is that your telephone number? And if it is your telephone number,
how come I'm able to dial you without having to put money in the phone? And she said she
had no idea why either I didn't have to put money in the phone or that I reached her dialing
411. She had no intelligence to lend in that particular field. She just said, I'm in my
house right now, and you just called me, and please don't call me again. So 411 obviously
is not the number to use to call information in this particular small town. Unfortunately,
there are no signs on this pay phone anywhere telling me what to do. I am completely stumped.
So I tried dialing 1-411, and I get a horrible recording saying that you can't do that and
don't try that again either. I tried 555-1212 and never got past the 555. I tried 1555-1212,
and I never got past the 555 again. Then I tried calling the area code I was in. I forget
which area code it was actually, but I tried dialing 1 plus the area code. That didn't
work either. I was starting to lose my mind at this point. How do people call information
in this town? Well, I dialed 0. I dialed 0, and I got the AT&T operator, which you cannot
get around here. If you dial 0, you'll get the New York Telephone operator. To get AT&T,
you have to dial 00, assuming you've selected them as your long-distance company. If you
haven't, you have to dial 102880. It seems relatively simple. That seems relatively simple
to give you an idea how crazy this situation was. But dialing 0 out there yields you an
AT&T operator, and I said, Operator, please, I need information. She said, Yes, well, you
have to go through me to get information, so you better treat me nice, otherwise you
won't get it. I said, Okay. She hooked me up to information, and she did. Information
came on the line. I asked for the number I wanted, and they gave me the number. And then
I was faced with a real problem, making a call, making a real call on a GTE payphone.
It's not the easiest thing in the world to do. In fact, sometimes it proves impossible.
I put the quarter in and dialed the number. Nope, that's not how you do it. You don't
just dial the number. I tried 1 plus the number. No, you don't do that either. No, no, no.
You can try 0 plus the number. You can try 1 area code number. You can try 0 area code
number. None of it will work. What you have to do is dial 0. Dial that same AT&T operator.
Now, yeah, this is the next town over. I don't know if I've mentioned that before,
but it's the next town over I'm trying to reach. It's the same area code. You can see
it. You can stand up in a high tree, and you can see the next town over. Yet I had to go
through the AT&T operator. And she said, Yeah, sorry, you can't call that number direct.
You have to go through the operator. You can't call numbers direct from payphones. She said,
This is what you do. You tell me the number, and I'll dial the number. And when the party
comes on the line, that's when you put your money in. Don't put your money in first, because
if you do that, it won't come back. At this point, it was obvious that I traveled back
several decades, so I figured I'd just sit back and enjoy the ride. So I let her call
this place long distance, the next town over. And the person picked up the phone, said
such-and-such motel or whatever. And the operator comes on and says, Yes, I have a long-distance
call, a long-distance call from about a mile away. Please hold on. And apparently this
happens quite often, because the person didn't see anything wrong with being asked to hold
on, wasting more time while I fumbled with the change. And it wasn't a quarter by that
point either, I might point out. It was something like $2.50 I had to put in. So I had to put
all this change in, and when it's all put in, finally, I'm allowed to speak to this
person. That's what you have to do to make a phone call out there in Ohio Pile, Pennsylvania,
and numerous other small towns throughout this country. Yes, the biggest phone company
in the world, actually in the country, maybe in the world, is GTE slash Contel. And it's
comprised of lots of former small-town phone companies that have all kinds of bizarre ways
of routing calls, and bizarre rules too. So if you travel out there, you've got to be
careful. I mean, you've got to watch yourself. If you think you can handle a phone in New
York City, you can handle a phone anywhere, it's not necessarily true. So, that's the
first phone lesson I really learned. The next thing I learned was in Bismarck, North Dakota,
and that was not really a phone lesson, that was more a communications lesson. There was
this radio station, rather sleazy radio station, typical AM kind of a thing, playing music,
commercials, some call-ins, that kind of thing. But then, it started to rain. And when
it rains in Bismarck, North Dakota, it rains for real. There was thunder, lightning, all
kinds of things that made you wonder how much longer your life was going to be extended.
Incredibly violent weather that suddenly got out of control before you knew it. Streets
were rivers, and cars were being submerged in intersections. Some people were calm, some
people weren't calm, but it was this radio station that I think really held the whole
place together, because all of a sudden, they turned into this hub of activity. The emergency
broadcast system was activated, and basically what they did was what we do here at BAI,
and it works very well, where you rely on the listeners. They opened up their phone
lines, and they said, tell us what's going on, tell us what you see. And people from
all over Bismarck were calling in, saying, this particular dam is about to break, there's
water all over this particular area, stay away from here, this car is submerged. And
this went on all day long. You know, the funny thing is, it didn't even make national news
at all. Nobody knew that there was massive flash flooding in Bismarck, North Dakota,
that day, because everybody was looking over at the Mississippi River. But it just goes
to show the power of communications, the importance of communications, and the importance of accurate
communications. You know, not panicking, not spreading misinformation, and when you don't
know, you say you don't know. A lot of stations don't really do that, so that was kind of
interesting to see this transition from a sleazy, typical AM radio station to something
that really served the community. And I guess we have that here in New York to a degree,
except we have so many stations, you don't know where to go. But if you stay here, at
least you'll get diversity. Then it was on through Seattle, through Canada. Now, when
you get to Seattle, when you're driving from New York to Seattle, and you intend to go
to Alaska, you pretty much have to drive from New York to Seattle again, going up.
And that's where you find some strange phone companies. I bet a lot of you think, that
have bothered to think about this, that the only Canadian phone company is Bell Canada.
Well, it's not. There's all kinds of different phone companies. And two of the ones that
I came across were BC Tel, for British Columbia Telephone, and Northwest Tel, which is in
part of the Northwest Territories and the Yukon, and also the northern part of BC, British
Columbia. And these are phones that look just like, well, they are GTE pay phones, but they
operate a little bit more logically than the ones I mentioned before. And the entire network
is pretty much the same as Bell Canada. I didn't really have a chance to play with it
all that much, but it was interesting to find out there were different companies up there.
And then in Fairbanks, Alaska, I found the strangest phone company of all. This is a
phone company that is owned by the city, owned by the city of Fairbanks. And when you pay
your phone bill, you're not just paying your phone bill, you're paying your electric bill,
you're paying your garbage bill, your water bill, your gas bill, whatever else, because
it's all owned by the city. And it was really kind of weird to see this. Now, they say that
this allows them to have really, really low rates. I wasn't able to compare them, you
know, see what people pay per month, but they claim that this allows them to do that. Now,
long distance, though, is completely different. You cannot get AT&T up there. You can't get
any of the long distance companies that we're used to. Instead, you have something called
Alaskom. Alaskom is the long distance company. If you call from Alaska to here, you will
get Alaskom. And the funny thing is, you would think that if you dial 102-88, you'd get
AT&T. Well, you don't. 102-88 gets you Alaskom, which is kind of weird. And there's another
phone company, too. There's an alternative company of sorts called GCI. GCI. Never heard
of them before, either. And they have a 950 number up there, 950-1077. And you enter your
code and dial your number that way. So that's a report from Alaska. Another thing I noticed
on the way back, at a phone in Mount McKinley, and also pay phones in Seattle and Minneapolis
that I noticed in airports, these Stromberg Carlson phones are being used. The same ones
they use in England that have little LCD displays that tell you how much time you have left
or how much money you have left since you've dropped in a quarter or whatever. They're
really heavy-looking phones. Looks like you can kill somebody with them. They're kind
of silver in color. And they're popping up in U.S. West Territories and Alaska as well.
You might see them here in New York at some point. They are experimenting over by the
Staten Island Ferry with prepaid cards. And I haven't had a chance to play with that yet,
but that's all the rage in Europe. Okay, speaking of Europe, Hacking at the End of the Universe,
that is the event which just took place, started last Wednesday, a week ago, and went
on until last Friday. And this, if you've heard of the Galactic Hacker Party, which
took place in 1989 in Amsterdam, this was the next step. Hacking at the End of the Universe
did not take place in the city of Amsterdam. It took place in the countryside of Holland.
That's right, the countryside. People came from all over the world, United States, Germany,
England, France, Poland, and of course Holland, and other places as well. And they came with
tents, and sleeping bags, and computers, all mixed together. It was really kind of strange.
But, you know, Holland is known for strange things. They come up with the weirdest ideas,
and the difference between here and there is that the weird ideas seem to work over there.
Get this, a computer network, an Ethernet, people from all over the world coming with
their laptops, with their 386s, 486s, Macintoshes, Amigas, you name it, coming together into
this huge room inside a building, and stacking up three or four tables that go on for very
long stretches, and just having one computer next to another computer next to another,
and everybody is tied into the network. They can trade software, they can communicate with
each other, they can do all kinds of neat things. And that's pretty much what it was.
Yeah, an Ethernet. An Ethernet of all kinds of bizarre people. But it didn't end there.
It didn't end there. It kept going on into the tents that were set up outside.
People would come with their tents, and they'd stick laptops inside their tents, hook it up to
the Ethernet, and they'd be connected to the network. And not only that, but this Ethernet
was hooked up to the Internet, which means that those of you out there with access could
just tap into this whole thing that was going on in Holland. In fact, there were quite a few
conversations going back and forth on IRC and various other things. So you had this computer
network, you had hackers in tents, had intense hacking, had all kinds of unusual things going on.
There was this big, massive tent with hundreds of seats that was used for seminars and
conversations and things like that. And there were sessions on social engineering, phone
phreaking, cryptography, various computer systems, Unix, and all that kind of thing.
And the conversation went back and forth between all kinds of people. I mean, social
engineering was a very interesting topic, because people from all over the world would
just compare ways in which they would get information from people. For instance, I told
my story, one of my stories, which concerns trying to get a number at a computer center
and a way to get information from somebody that doesn't want to give you the information.
There was this time back in my real active hacking days when somebody I know was trying
to get a phone number for the computer center at a major university. And they called up
and they tried to social engineer the number out of the person. They said, yes, I need
this particular phone number, we're doing some maintenance on it, we need a number for
the computer center. But the person caught on, and the person was indignant, and the
person said, you have no right to this information, I'm not going to fall for this trick, how
dare you call me? And they hung up, and my friend was very, very upset. So I said, don't
worry, let's try something else. We waited a few minutes, and I made another phone call,
and I said, this is such and such over in accounting, I just heard about what happened.
Sure enough, that person had talked to somebody else, and so this call from accounting did
not seem like something that would be too surprising. And I said to them, well, why
don't you just tell me what it was that happened? And the person went off and told their story
about how somebody actually dared to call them and try to get the number for the computer
center. And I said, well, so what information was it they were trying to get? And they told
everything there was to tell, it was that simple. So there's never really an end to
hope when you're dealing with this kind of thing. But those are the kind of stories that
were traded back and forth. Things have changed in Holland a little bit. There are now laws
against computer hacking, but the spirit has not changed. The spirit has not changed. People
still are really into exploring and trading information. And this was an occasion where
the hackers ran the show. There were media people all over the place, chasing after hackers,
asking them questions. But for once, the hackers were not reacting to something bad, they were
generating something good. And that's something I'd sure like to see in this country. Now,
people would come up to me and they'd say, how come something like this can't be done
in the United States? Surely we can do something like this in the United States. And I said,
you know, that's an interesting idea, but wouldn't it be more fun to come up with a
list of all the reasons why we can't? I mean, that'll keep us occupied all day long. For
instance, here we are in this tent, you know, all these people hanging out of all ages,
you know, just having a good time, trading information. Could you do that in this country?
Of course not. You'd be busted for serving alcohol to minors or some stupid thing like
that. In Europe, they don't care about that because it's not important. It's not important
and people don't abuse things like they abuse things here. And that, you know, coupled with
all kinds of other regulations and draconian ways in which we deal with people here, would
ensure that it would be very difficult. Difficult, yes, but not impossible. So basically what
people want to do, and this is what a lot of people have already sort of spontaneously
come up with over there and over here, is something. We don't know what yet, but something
in this country, perhaps next year. Next year would be a very good time as it's the 10th
anniversary of 2600 Magazine and we could really have a massive kind of event. But something
perhaps in the city of New York, if not in the city of New York, some other city someplace
where we kind of, you know, we wouldn't do the camping thing, I don't think. We would
get maybe a warehouse, some huge building where we could just set up a network and have
people stay with their computers, have seminars, ways in which we can use telephones to show
people what's out there and just, you know, do it the way it should be done. The American
Hacker Congress, I believe. Never been done before. So if you have ideas on that, please
you can write to us here at the radio station, WBAI 505 8th Avenue, New York, New York 10018
or you can call 2600 Magazine 516-751-2600. That's, if you have a spare warehouse lying
around, that certainly helps too. But you can do things if you believe you can do them.
That's really what I always learn whenever I go over there. You can put together a network
out of nothing. You can get a thousand people to show up from all around the world and trade
information. Yeah. Okay. Well, we're almost ready to go to the phones. I just got to say
one thing though. I just got to say one thing. I had a great time, you know, traveling across
this country, traveling to other countries. I didn't get hassled by a single person in our
country or overseas until, until guess when? Until I decide to come back into this country.
And yes, my friends, it happened yet again. Yet again, they, they, they pull me over to
the side. I take one look at my passport, see my name. I mean, they must be doing that
because they're not looking at my face. They look at my passport and say, well, you step
over here. So, okay, here we go again. I mean, you know, a couple of years ago, going from
Canada to the US, we had this massive problem where it took several hours while they combed
through all the magazines and electronic equipment, looking for all kinds of God knows
what. But after, after traveling to all these countries, after being welcomed with open
arms, nothing but nice people everywhere we go, coming back into this country, step this
way, have your bag searched, go through every single article that you bring with you and
go through interrogation once more. You're a writer. What kind of things do you write?
I mean, for Christ's sake, this is the United States of America. What kind of things do
you write? I mean, what kind of question is that to ask somebody? Somebody who supposedly
lives here, you know, and is a citizen. What kind of things do you write? I didn't really
give a straight answer. I just said, well, all kinds of things. All kinds of things.
So after going through luggage and not finding anything, going through that routine, they
said they had to check my identity, which meant I had to just stand there for about
25 minutes and do absolutely nothing while they did absolutely nothing. And then 25 minutes
later, somebody comes down and takes the guy that's holding me aside and whispers something
to him for about maybe 30 seconds. And then the guy comes back to me and says, OK, you
can go now. I said, oh joy, I'm allowed back in this country. What a privilege. What an
honor. I'm allowed back. You people are just so amazing. Only an hour of delay this time
getting back into my own country. No strip search this time. That's real sporting of
you guys. Every damn time into this country, it's something new. And I'm a bit fed up
with it because if I can get into foreign countries that don't know me and they say,
welcome to our country. Enjoy your trip. Enjoy your stay. See this place while you're
at it. And they're friendly and everything like that. If all this oppression is going
to greet me every time I come back here, you have to wonder, why come back here? What's
the point? Some heads have got to roll and we've got to start doing some rolling. So
I don't know if anybody can tell me how to file suit against these idiots. They didn't
have badges. I didn't feel like asking them what their badge numbers were because God
knows what offense I would have committed by doing that. They didn't even have badges
on. You should have seen what they were doing to these poor Russian people that were coming
in. They were apparently guilty of carrying a couple of shirts that were still in packages.
And that's like apparently the worst thing you can do is go from Russia to here and bring
some new shirts with you. These people were being humiliated. I mean, this is an elderly
people. And this customs agent was just so rude to them. He was saying, you people are
liars. Literally, he was saying that to them. You people are liars. You people have no credibility
whatsoever. I don't believe anything you say. And I'm not listening to anything more you
say. So just shut up and stand over there. And basically, they just tore everything apart.
They seized their luggage. They said, you can't have this anymore. And these were things
that these people had brought with them that obviously weren't new. But they were just
being totally harassed and humiliated. And I just said one thing to them as I was allowed
to go back into this country. I just said to them, welcome to America. Yeah. All right.
A couple of you might have heard some sad news over the last couple of days about Pacifica,
the cat passing away on Saturday. Yes, it's true. And we're all pretty sad about that
here at the radio station. Pacifica was kind of a, I don't know, something that bound people
together. And, you know, it was the first non-human person, actually the first person
or first anything I met at the radio station and the only non-human staff member, of course.
And it's sad to see Pacifica go. But we have lots and lots of memories. Yeah. You know,
on that first day when I came into the station, I think Pacifica is the only creature that
remained until this year. There was one time I remember when we had a new person here that
had taken over some position of responsibility, except this person was allergic to cats,
very allergic to cats. So Pacifica, the cat had to go. And it was a very sad occasion where,
you know, the cat had to leave because obviously, you know, human people are more important
at a radio station. And the next week I remember coming in and the cat was back. Apparently
the person had just couldn't take the pressure or something. I don't know exactly what happened,
but I guess the person felt so guilty or perhaps just the spirit of the cat prevailed.
But the cat returned, the person left, and the cat stayed until the end, which came this Saturday.
So I believe Pacifica was 14 years old and had 14 good years.
Okay, it's now 25 minutes to 11 o'clock. Our telephone number is 212-279-3400.
There are a couple of listener mail submissions, but you know, I think we should get to the phones
first because we haven't gotten to the phones in quite some time. We've been away for many, many weeks.
And we'll just do that. If we run out of time, we'll get to these articles next week
because we can do things like that. 212-279-3400.
And why not give your name and where you're calling from? Your first name and where you're calling from
and that way we can be, you know, more friendly. Yeah, that's how it works.
Good evening. Who are you? Where are you calling from?
Yeah, John from Jackson Heights, Queens.
I'm interested in the cordless phones and I noticed in the new Radio Shack catalog
they have one that has a scrambling and a de-scrambling chip between the handset and the base.
Is that something that's common and do you think that would really be able to keep eavesdroppers out
from hearing your personal conversation?
I think you're referring to what, the new AT&T ones that scramble?
I'm sorry, you cut out for a second.
Yeah, that's our phone system.
It's called DuoPhone ET499, $160.
Oh, that's Radio Shack.
Yeah, it's voice scrambling cordless telephone and it scrambles the signal between the handset
and the base unit so that somebody, you know, conceivably if they had a scrambler with a chip
that would fit or with the crystal that would fit those frequencies would just hear jumble.
And I'm wondering if you, is that common with the cordless and do you think it really would help eavesdroppers
to not hear your personal stuff?
I think, yeah, I definitely think scrambling will help people protect their privacy
but I don't think it's all that common.
I know AT&T is putting something out with a clipper chip for cordless phones
but I don't think it's all that prevalent right now.
But would it be helpful do you think?
Or could you get around it if you really wanted to be sneaky?
You might be able to find, it depends on what kind of encryption they use
and how complicated it is, you know?
Okay, but you don't know anything really specific?
Well, what's the specific model again? We can have people look into it a little bit.
Alright, I'll keep listening, thanks.
What kind of model is it? Duophone what?
It's called Duophone ET499. It's a cordless phone.
There's nothing more than that, no answering machine or anything else.
Okay, and how old is this?
It's the latest, it's the 1992 catalog.
There's a new one coming out in a couple of weeks. I haven't seen it.
Okay, we'll run it by...
93 catalog, but it comes out in August 92.
Alright, we'll run it by a few people and see if anybody has cracked it yet.
Alright, thanks a lot.
Okay.
Good evening.
Who's there?
Anybody there?
Okay, let's go to the next call.
Good evening, anybody there?
Hi, yes, I'm here and you can guess who this is.
Oh, who is this? I think lots of people would like to know.
Yes, well, I believe my name is Rebel from Queens.
Alright, Rebel from Queens. There, people, you have something to go on now.
Right.
Alright, what can we do for you?
Okay, as you might have heard, I took a trip to out west Colorado, Utah, New Mexico and places like that.
Yeah, in fact, I just missed passing your path.
Yeah, I noticed you saying that.
It was the closest call of my life, actually.
It was interesting.
Yeah, and I found something strange.
In Salt Lake City, Utah, when I went into the hotel, I can make free long distance phone calls.
You dial 00 for the AT&T operator and just say I'm having trouble dialing it and she doesn't even ask you your room number.
And, when I went to Colorado, to Denver, she did ask me my room number and the hotel only had 8 floors and I said my room number was like 16 and 13 and they put it through free.
How is an operator going to know how many floors you have in the place you're calling from?
That's the thing, but wait a minute, get this.
The last day I was there, at 7 o'clock in the morning, I get a call from the AT&T operator saying, oh, was your call alright? Did you place this call to this number?
Oh, they know. They know everything.
They're just trying to tell you that.
I gave them a fake room number. They don't know it then, but how do they catch on to that?
I don't know. It sounds like they were just showing you that they're not going to be fooled.
I wouldn't be surprised if you get a bill at your home address.
No, I wouldn't be surprised if it's on my credit card because that's what I use.
And did you know that if you, on US West, charge is 25 cents for a local information?
That's true, they do. But there's also phone books everywhere you look.
Yeah, but did you know that in Nebraska, no, it's Wyoming, Southwest Wyoming, parts of Wyoming charge 35 cents for a local call.
Yeah, that is true. That is definitely true.
Like what you've seen in Ohio pile?
By the way, where is that? Is that in western Pennsylvania?
That's western Pennsylvania just south of Pittsburgh.
South of Pittsburgh.
Pittsburgh is probably the worst city in the world, by the way.
I've got to go there and check that out.
And did you know that there was a step system and you can place, there was a rest stop and you can place free third number calls because they don't check because it's probably not identified as a charged call.
Wonderful, you roll into these small towns and defraud the poor small phone companies of their hard earned money there.
The 801336 exchange is a number one crossbar and...
Well, there's lots of old equipment left.
Yeah, but I've never seen a step switch. Can you use a blue box on a crossbar switch, a one crossbar?
You can use a blue box on virtually anything. It depends on what you connect to.
You see, I mean, if you're calling into something, yeah, it's quite likely that you can, you know, it's something primitive you'll be able to box off of even to this day.
In Alaska, there's lots and lots of boxable numbers. I mean, you hear 2600 hertz tones, you know, on disconnects everywhere.
That's the thing, I heard the 2600, the blue box tones when I dialed the number.
You heard MF tones?
I heard MF tones when I dialed the number, and I saw what you had, the post pay phones where you had to deposit the money after the fraud answer.
Yeah, well, the thing with the phone I was using was they didn't tell me that, the operator told me that.
Right, yeah, the operator told me, too, and I ran into GTE phones, too.
And it's strange what you saw, it's more strange than what I saw.
I never seen a step system, and I never seen the old, old phones with the three, like for quarter diamond nickel, three slots.
I never seen one of those.
No, they don't have those too much.
Let me ask you a question here, see if you know the answer to this.
In New York, of course, we're not allowed any free long distance calls anymore, I mean free, I'm sorry, directory assistance calls anymore.
You're aware of that, right?
In New York, in the home phones, in the regular phones.
Right, right, home phones.
Right.
How many do you think you're allowed per month in Canada?
Ten?
That's a good guess, are you sure you want to stick with that guess?
Yeah, you mean there's a certain amount that you're allowed?
Yes, there's a certain amount, and you cannot go over that amount, and when you go over that amount, you have to start paying.
Okay, it must be ten.
No, 250.
What?
That's right, 250, you can call, you know, long distance directory assistance, you can call local directory assistance, whatever, but if you go over 250, you have to start paying.
The only Gulf Canada phone I've been to, seen, was in Toronto, and I...
No, they don't take American coins, they don't do that, that much I do know.
Maybe.
Well, while you're puzzling over that, we're going to go on to another phone call, and thanks very much for calling.
Fiverr Optic has just stumbled in, how are you doing?
I just blew in.
Yeah, how have you been?
I've been okay.
How long has it been since we've done live radio here?
It's been a while.
Yeah, so...
Good to be back.
Anything new on your end?
Not a whole lot, I don't know if anyone's been following my legal situation.
I'm sure quite a few people have, judging from the amount of people that keep stopping me in the halls asking me where you are and how you are and all that kind of thing, so why don't you tell people?
Well, just a brief update is I'm okay.
I ended up pleading guilty.
It seemed like the better decision out of a choice between pleading guilty and facing the consequences, or going to trial and losing and facing bigger consequences.
So that's pretty much the gist of things.
So basically you feel you were sort of pushed into it?
I wouldn't necessarily say I was pushed into it, but I feel I made a more informed decision by being able to review all the evidence involved in the case, which they referred to as discovery material.
And I guess I made a more informed decision based on the information that I saw, and I carefully weighed all the factors.
So how do you feel?
Pretty bad.
Don't feel too good.
It's not the best time of somebody's life when they're forced into something like that, to make that kind of a decision.
I've seen better days.
Well, we'll keep people updated as things change. Your sentencing is November, right?
That's right.
Hopefully things will go a little better than they've gone in a couple of other recent sentencing, which we'll get into in future shows.
All right. Well, it's good to know for the moment, anyway, things are OK.
Life is as bad as normal, so you can make it, I suppose.
Anything else?
Yeah, well, I guess it's worth mentioning that over the past, I guess, month or so, I've been working for an online system in Manhattan.
Another online system in Denver?
Another online system.
OK.
It's called Echo, and it sort of has a nice flavor to it.
And recently I set up the Internet connection, and I've been attending to all sorts of administrative duties and keeping everyone happy.
And it's a pretty fun experience, and I encourage anyone out there who's interested in calling to check it out.
How can they do that?
They can either telnet to the Internet address, which is EchoNYC, one word, dot com, EchoNYC dot com,
or they can call the phone number and log in with their modem, and the number's 212-989-8411, and just log in as a new user.
OK. And what kind of things can people do on this system?
Oh, I'm in the process of setting up all sorts of neat things.
So far, there's all the message conferences, which have all sorts of special interests to keep people interested.
And people who choose to subscribe to Internet access, I've set up, besides what you'd expect, your telnet and FTP and things like that,
I've set up Gopher, which is a menu-driven information service that allows you to scan pretty much information servers worldwide.
And other things we'll be developing, I'll be installing Usenet News, I'll be installing Internet Relay Chat,
and all kinds of fun stuff should develop.
OK, and hopefully more people will get involved with the Internet, because that's really the key to everything.
When you're on the Internet, you can go anywhere.
And do anything.
You can go to a tent in Holland and talk to people there.
I mean, everybody had the... this is something else that we did that maybe you would understand why.
I'm not quite sure why they did it this way.
But for some reason, they took the PBX, the phone system that was at the campgrounds,
and they took the output of the calls that were being made.
There is a port on the PBX that sends data out.
And every time somebody makes a phone call, it sends the number that the person called, the line it went out on, the duration of the call, that kind of thing.
Basically, you know, your standard itemization.
But in Europe, they don't have itemization.
They don't use itemization, certainly not to the extent that we do.
So it's a big deal when they're able to actually see something like this.
So what they did was they piped that info out and stored it into a file to watch the PBX to make sure that it wasn't being abused.
But one thing that they did, which was rather interesting, they piped it out over IRC.
Apparently, they used IRC to actually do this process.
I don't know why.
I think it was the only thing that was open to them.
And they needed IRC in order to be able to do this.
And while they were using IRC, they just sent it out over the network.
So everybody who was on the hack channel last week would see every single number that was dialed on the PBX system in Holland, every single number.
So if somebody entered an entire calling card, the whole thing would go out over IRC, which was pretty funny when you think of it.
But everybody was warned about this.
And everybody knew that every time they dialed something on the phone, the number would show up on IRC all throughout the world.
And it changed the way people thought when they picked up the phone to call somebody that they knew perhaps.
And it cut down on abuse quite a bit.
So I guess when you have public acknowledgment of everything you do, you kind of tone down.
But do you understand what it was they were doing?
They were doing something on IRC.
They were piping it through somehow.
Well, it makes sense to me.
I think it's a pretty interesting demonstration, if you think about it, just a parallel to just how private our message accounting information is in the United States.
Yeah.
Well, speaking of messages and things like that, somebody sent this in.
It's about voice messaging.
And it concerns the Long Island Railroad.
Yeah, this is interesting.
Apparently, the LIRR is going to buy a voice messaging system from New York Telephone.
And according to our contributor, this purchase is being made without a bidding process because the LIRR thinks New York Telephone is the only source for the system they want.
The contract will be competitively bid if other firms can show they're a responsible source for the item.
I'll read you a bit of this legal notice, which appeared in July.
Notice of single-source procurement by the Long Island Railroad voice messaging system New York Telephone.
You really have to dig to see something like this.
This advertisement is a public notice that the Long Island Railroad Company intends to procure a voice messaging system, an Intellipath system, which will interface with New York Telephone's digital-centric system from New York Telephone, which is the only known responsible source for this item.
I don't know about responsible.
The purpose of this notice is to invite any firm which believes that it can provide this item to so inform the LIRR by letter.
If the LIRR is satisfied that a firm is responsible and can supply the item on acceptable terms and conditions, the item will be competitively bid.
The firm's letter must be received no later than August 16th, must be addressed to the Long Island Railroad Company, Attention William B. Garrison, Director, Procurement and Materials Management, 146-01 Archer Avenue, Jamaica, NY, 11435, Mail Code 1411.
And they must state the firm can supply this item.
Forget to mention that fact. I'll just throw it in the trash.
And number four, include additional information which confirms that the firm can supply that item.
Okay, that's what you've got to do.
So if you have a voicemail system and you want to compete with New York Telephone, go for it.
This is your big chance.
Okay, let's give someone else a big chance here.
Good evening, you're on.
Yeah, this is Jay Hawk from Yonkers.
How are you doing?
Hi, a couple things.
First, I believe that Pacifica was 17 years old.
17? Wow, that's incredible.
That's what I believed hearing on Saturday.
Also, the time for cutoff has changed to five minutes.
Five minutes and two or three seconds.
It's changed to five minutes from what?
From two minutes calling BAI.
Yeah.
Letting it ring and ring and then getting cut off.
And before it was shorter?
It was two minutes.
Do you remember that goal about a month and a half ago?
Yeah, but it was different for different people depending on how they were calling.
I believe it was pretty standard for two minutes from within the ladder.
It was two minutes for me.
Okay.
Okay, but it still does cut you off eventually.
Yeah, it still cuts me off at five.
And there used to be an immediate message that came on, and that's no longer there.
And I didn't really hang around for more than about 15 seconds of silence.
Now, you're up in 914 area code, right?
Yep.
I don't know if you're aware of this,
but a lot of people up in 914 now have their phone numbers transmitted whenever they make a call.
Oh, with caller ID stuff?
Yeah, it goes all the way down to 516 area code now.
Well, let's see.
I really doubt it's transmitted.
Wouldn't that mean that I would have to have caller ID available?
No, that's not necessarily true.
No?
I mean, yeah, technically it's available, but they don't have to tell you.
I mean, they should tell you, but...
Hardware, I've spoken to them, and it's not available for me.
Well, maybe not for you, but I've gotten several calls from people up in 914
that had no idea their number was being transmitted, and, in fact, it is.
Right out there in the caller ID box, their number is being transmitted now,
out of, you know, different area codes as well.
There are some numbers in Yonkers and some other places in Westchester.
Actually, if you call them up, they are pretty,
they do know what's available and they will tell you.
Let's see, there was another thing.
Oh, since Fiber mentioned Gopher,
there's recently, as of Friday, there was a major security hole discovered
in the current Gopher server version,
the current versions of the Gopher server,
such that if your Gopher server used any shell scripts
in response to users' interactions,
then it was vulnerable to people reading the password file
and all sorts of other things like that.
Oh, that's how interesting.
Fiber, do you know anything about that?
I haven't heard about it, but I guess I'm relieved
that I haven't set up Echo's Gopher server yet.
Yeah, well, it's only for the servers,
and it's only if you're using shell scripts
or if you have a publicly accessible account
that you can log into to get to a Gopher server.
And they've released new versions,
1.12s, only for secure, and 2.0s.
The S's for secure, you say?
Well, that certainly makes me feel better.
If they put an S in there, you know they've done their homework.
And there was a curt announcement about that.
Uh-huh.
Different cert.
Okay, well, another cert thing, huh?
Yeah.
That's always fun, a cert seal of approval.
What I found particularly funny was that
there were copies of the cert announcement available
over Usenet prior to they were available
over CompSecurity Announce,
which is where they're supposed to officially be posted.
That actually makes sense,
but we're not going to get into all that right now.
CompInfo system, Gopher.
All right, well, thanks for spreading that information around.
How do you spell Ohio, by the way?
As far as I know, it's Ohio, O-H-I-O,
followed by P-Y-L-E, all one word.
Okay.
I'm pretty sure that's how you spell it.
Pretty neat name, isn't it?
I wouldn't want to live there.
No, you wouldn't want to live there.
Although, you have the Frank Lloyd Wright House,
which is kind of interesting.
Thank you.
Okay, thanks for calling.
We're going to go on to another call.
Good evening.
You're on Off The Hook.
Yes, hi.
Who are you and where are you calling from?
My name's Daniel.
I'm calling from Manhattan.
Okay.
This is the first time I've heard your show,
and it's absolutely fascinating,
so I thank you very much.
I had one question and two real brief comments.
The question is a technical one.
I'm obviously not as well versed technically as your other listeners,
so it might sound simple,
but I just moved to the area and I got caller ID.
Every time a call comes through,
no matter where it's from,
the box will say,
out of area.
I will never,
I have not managed once to get,
to have it display the number that's calling me.
I called up the phone company,
and they said that they gave me some convoluted answer,
which I couldn't understand,
and I thought you might be able to shed some light on it.
Well, now you just moved into the area?
Yeah.
Sounds like you're getting calls from your friends back home.
I got a call.
I live on 11th Street,
East 11th Street,
and I got a call from two blocks around the corner,
and it still said out of area.
Really?
Well, now it's possible two blocks away is not hooked up yet.
What you should try is try something within your own exchange.
Now, that will definitely get you something,
because you know you have caller ID in your particular area.
Right.
So, if that doesn't work,
then either the phone company is messing up somehow,
or your box is just transmitting,
or translating the wrong signals.
Yeah.
I know the box works,
because it worked in Michigan,
where I came from.
Okay, then it should work here.
I don't see any reason why it would stop working here.
The protocol is pretty much the same.
Is there,
if you might just be able to briefly tell me
where caller ID is available in this area?
Where it's available?
It's available just about everywhere now.
So, there really shouldn't be a problem?
No, there shouldn't.
Yeah.
This is something that really shouldn't be a problem at all.
I mean, you're in a section of New York that is offering it now.
Yes.
You're in 212 area code?
Yep.
Okay.
It's not being offered in all 212 at the same time.
I think we have access to it now at BAI.
We're certainly not going to use it,
but there are some areas of New York that don't have it yet.
Uh-huh.
Okay, well.
I mean, most places now have it.
They really do in the area.
So, you shouldn't have any trouble getting a number.
How many calls do you get?
Oh, it's been well over 20 by now.
None of them have displayed a number.
That's hard to believe.
Fabio, you have something to say?
Yeah, I want to know what's this convoluted answer
that you said the phone company gave you?
You know, I'm not even sure if I can tell it to you.
I didn't quite understand it when the woman told me.
She said something about not all of 212
having the caller ID service
and that I just have to either discontinue the service
or hope that sometime it'll display the number.
That's basically what she said.
Uh-huh.
Try this, okay?
Okay.
This works.
Call a number that's busy, okay?
Tell a friend that, you know.
You can phone off the hook.
Yeah, tell a friend that you, you know,
that you're pretty sure is in the area.
Right.
And has access to these things.
Tell him to leave his phone off the hook.
Make sure he doesn't have a call waiting.
Or tell him to turn it off.
The number will be busy, okay?
At that point, hit call repeat, which is star 66.
Okay.
Or 1166.
Okay, when your phone rings back with his number,
his number should show up on your caller ID box.
Uh-huh.
If it doesn't, you've got a problem.
All right, I'll definitely try that out.
All right, let us know what happens.
Just one, two other things I want to say real briefly
then I'll get off the line.
One is, when you were in Ohio Pile
and you were calling the hotel just so close to you,
why did you even bother calling when you were so close to the hotel?
Well, that's a good, all right.
I couldn't see the hotel from the treetops,
but it was maybe, you know, a couple of miles down the road.
Yeah.
And I just, I didn't want to drive a couple of miles down the road.
That's all.
You know, that's what telephones are for,
to keep you from driving a couple of miles down the road.
Right.
And just the other thing I was going to say,
just a comment you were talking about when you came back into the U.S.
and you were hassled so much coming into your own country.
Yes.
And how you were surprised and everything.
Well, congratulations.
You've just discovered how it is to be a Palestinian.
Oh, yeah.
But the thing is, I knew what it was like to be a Palestinian and an American before.
Right.
Because I've been through this so many times now.
Well, I thank you very much for your advice.
Thanks for calling.
And we're out of time here,
so I want to thank everybody who called in.
We are out of time tonight for this particular edition of Off the Hook,
but next week we'll be back with even more fun and information and data
and all kinds of stuff like that.
Remember, our address is Off the Hook,
care of WBAI, 505 8th Avenue, New York, New York 10018.
This is Emanuel Goldstein for FiberOptic.
Good night.
This is Emanuel Goldstein for FiberOptic.
Good night.
upbeat music playing
Good evening.
In the news tonight,
a leaked internal memo shows original reports
indicating safe asbestos levels in New York City schools were completely fabricated.
A new chair of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
More death penalties, more cops on the beat, and fewer handguns.
A look at Clinton's new plan to fight crime.
And the Pope plans to visit Colorado,
but not everyone in Denver thinks it's a blessing.
With these and other stories,
I'm Laura Seidel in New York with Verna Avery-Brown in Washington.
This is the news for Wednesday, August 4, 1993.
First to these headlines topping the news.
President Clinton today stuck to his campaign pledge to tighten gun control
and to put more police on the streets.
When our children must pass through metal detectors to go to school,
or worry that they'll be the victim of random drive-by shootings
when they're playing in the swimming pool in the summertime,
when parents are imprisoned in their own apartments behind locked doors,
when we can't walk the streets of our cities without fear,
we have lost an essential element of our civilization.
The president introduced an anti-crime package
which includes two executive orders banning imported assault-style handguns
and tightening regulations on gun dealers.
The current round of intensive talks to seek an end to the conflict in Bosnia
is well into its third week.
As Gordon Martin reports from Geneva,
progress now seems likely after ten days of stalemate.
The deadlock caused by the continued presence of Serb forces
on the heights above Sarajevo should be broken tomorrow.
Conference spokesman John Mills said there was evidence
of a considerable withdrawal from Mount Igman,
but some Serb forces remained.
Their leader, Radovan Karadzic, was told sharply by Lord Owen
to get those troops off the mountain by mid-morning tomorrow.
This will bring Muslim president Izet Begovic,
who so far staged a boycott, back into the negotiation.
Gordon Martin, Geneva, for Pacifica Network News.
The U.S. warned today that the Serbs could face NATO airstrikes
if they continue to occupy the two strategic mountains around Sarajevo.
And according to a U.N. spokesperson,
everything is in place for NATO airstrikes
if U.N. Secretary-General Boutros Boutros-Ghali gives the go-ahead.
Meanwhile, 59 members of Peace Now,
an international contingent of peace activists, reached Sarajevo today.
The delegation hopes its nonviolent witness to the war
will encourage all warring factions in Bosnia to lay down their arms.
In South Africa today, Zulu leader Mangusutho Buthelezi
rejected a proposal to create a multi-party police force.
African National Congress leader Nelson Mandela
has been advocating a multi-ethnic force
to halt violence in the black townships.
More than 200 blacks have been killed in political violence
since black and white negotiators announced multiracial elections for next April.
Homeless families are finding it increasingly difficult
to find affordable housing and to stay together until they do.
That's according to a report issued today
by the National Law Center on Homelessness and Poverty.
Maria Foscarinas is the center's director.
We've heard some talk about AFDC policies, for instance,
welfare policies encouraging families to break up,
and we've discussed that in this report.
That is occurring, and it's still occurring despite some reform.
But what we're now seeing is families being forced to break up
just to receive emergency shelter.
The survey of 19 cities concluded that the very system of emergency care
that should help thousands of homeless family members in the U.S.
can actually trap them in a life without a home, wages, or each other.
And those are the stories topping the news.
In this just in, President Clinton has named Army General John Shalikashvili
to be the new chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
Shalikashvili is currently the Supreme Allied Commander of the Joint Forces in Europe,
which means that his attention has been focused on the situation in Bosnia.
Previously he was the commander of Operation Provide Comfort,
which helped protect the Kurdish population in Iraq
following the end of the Persian Gulf War.
By choosing Shalikashvili, Clinton is breaking a military tradition.
Historically, the chairmanship of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
has been rotated among the various services.
The Army General will succeed General Colin Powell, who also wears an Army uniform.
There had been speculation that President Clinton would choose Marine Commander Joseph Hoare.
Jung Woo Yoo reports.
At a news conference today, gay, lesbian, and feminist leaders
protested the possibility that General Hoare might replace General Colin Powell.
Hoare was the commander of the Marine Training Depot at Parris Island in the late 1980s.
Tori Osborne, executive director of the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force,
says General Hoare engaged in witch hunts against lesbians in the Navy.
It was under General Hoare's watch at Parris Island that more than 200 women were investigated,
65 women were discharged, and three women were imprisoned for being lesbians.
The Naval Investigative Service conducted a vicious and overzealous investigation that ruined women's lives.
Now that General Shalikashvili has been chosen, Hoare will remain a Marine Commander.
The new chair of the Joint Chiefs of Staff must be approved by the Senate.
For WBAI News, I'm Jung Woo Yoo.
upbeat music playing
President Clinton unveiled his anti-crime package today,
describing it as a major down payment on his campaign pledge to put tens of
thousands of new police on the streets. He was flanked by his vice president,
attorney general, congressional members, and a host of law enforcement officers.
But as Pacifica's Don Rush reports, Clinton's plan to get tough on crime
could be headed for tough flooding in Congress. It was a day in which President
Bill Clinton decided to show he was tough on crime as he unveiled his
anti-crime package. It is the beginning, just the beginning, but a major beginning
of a long-term strategy to make America a more law-abiding, peaceful place and to
make Americans more secure. Topping the list was 3.4 billion dollars to be spent
over the next five years to put 50,000 new police officers on the streets. This, he
said, was a down payment on his campaign pledge to put twice that many on the
street. In addition, the president said he wanted to fund boot camps for juvenile
offenders as part of crime prevention. Then came one of the more controversial
parts of his package, handgun control. He said it would push for congressional
approval of the Brady Bill, which requires a five-day waiting period for
the purchase of such weapons. It is long past time to pass it. If the Congress
will pass it, I will sign it. I believe now the Congress will pass it. There is
no conceivable excuse to delay this action one more day. In addition, the
president said he would sign two executive orders. One was to suspend
imports of foreign-made assault-style handguns. The second seeks to tighten
regulations on those who can sell guns. The proposals and executive orders were
immediately denounced by the National Rifle Association, but the NRA has
suffered a series of defeats on the state level over handgun control, and a
recent public opinion poll showed a majority of Americans favored handgun
control. Bill McIntyre with the NRA says his organization is still not giving up.
Nobody wins them all, and we've had pretty good success, in fact, very good
success over the years. And as far as polls go, sure, I mean, polls will show
widespread support for things like the Brady Bill, but what doesn't go widely
reported is that those same polls often show that no one believes a Brady Bill
waiting period will have any impact on violent crime or criminal access to
crime. The power of the NRA is still feared within political circles, despite
its recent losses. Representative Charles Schumer. The NRA is preparing a
whole slew of amendments that sound innocuous, but could gut the Brady Bill. I
am worried that unless we have the full force of the president against every one
of those amendments, that they could sneak in and pass, and we'd have a Pyrrhic
victory. The New York Democrat said he would have preferred the Brady Bill be
voted on separately. The other significant portion of the package deals
with the death penalty. The measure would restore the death penalty for a
number of federal crimes, including the killing of a federal officer. In addition,
the president said he wanted to limit the ability of those on death row to
appeal their convictions. This legislation will reform procedures by
limiting death row inmates to a single habeas corpus appeal within a six-month
time limit, but also guaranteeing them a higher standard of legal representation
than many have had in the past. Both elements are important if this is to be
genuine reform. But the emphasis of the president's package on the death penalty
disturbs a number of critics, including Michigan Representative John Conyers,
who attended today's ceremony. If you can show me how adding 50 more death
penalty provisions is going to deter one person, then I am for it. Uh, why not
100 more death penalty provisions? How about, uh, I reach your 100 and I bid
110 and someone else that's tougher on crime is for 150. So what? In short,
the Michigan Democrats said he never found the death penalty to be a
deterrent to crime. He indicated to reporters that the Congressional Black
Caucus may have some difficulty with this part of the package. On the other
hand, conservatives said the president was on the right track. Over the years,
they have attempted to limit appeals and death penalty cases. But just
recently, a number of convicts on death row have been released because they
were found to be innocent. And Alan Slobodan, with the conservative
Washington Legal Foundation, admits that's a price that must be paid for
the death penalty. There is always the remote possibility of an innocent
person being executed. Uh, that has been largely accepted in this country as a
small price to pay in order to have the death penalty and all the
justifications that come with it to help build support for the rural law in
this country. But there is another component of the death penalty. That is
the fact that the death penalty hits minorities the hardest. Indeed, during
the presidential campaign, then Governor Bill Clinton allowed an
African American to be executed in Arkansas. And for some, the emphasis on
the death penalty is reminiscent of how President George Bush used convicted
murderer Willie Horton during the 1988 campaign. Lee Dingerson, executive
director of the National Coalition to Abolish the Death Penalty. The
inclusion of the death penalty and the support of death penalty provisions
really takes this back to the same old racist and class based rhetoric about
crime. It's playing to people's fears. It's the latest manifestation of the
Willie Horton phenomenon from 1988. Horton escaped from prison while on an
unsupervised furlough. Eventually was caught in charge with rape and assault.
Then presidential candidate George Bush used the African American and the story
to discredit his Democratic opponents record on crime. Don Rush, Pacific
Network News, Washington. Much of the Clinton administration's new crime bill
is designed to put more people behind bars. But one group of people adversely
affected by this policy is likely to be African Americans. As Mark Beavis
reports, justice is not blind when it comes to people of color. United States
has more African Americans in prison than South Africa. In the past year, the
apartheid government has pledged to reduce its prison population. The U. S.
is pledged to put more people behind bars. And Ronald Hampton is one of those
in the front lines. Hampton is a police officer and director of the National
Black Police Association.