Off The Hook - 1993-10-13

[00:02.560 --> 00:07.180]  [SPEAKER_09]: With Paul DiRienzo, keeping an eye on the New World Order.
[00:07.460 --> 00:11.500]  [SPEAKER_09]: 1.30 Wednesday night, Thursday morning, following Robert Knight.
[00:11.840 --> 00:16.860]  [SPEAKER_09]: Let him talk on WBAI 99.5 FM.
[00:46.600 --> 00:49.840]  [SPEAKER_16]: We're here to do poison art.
[00:52.340 --> 00:55.880]  [SPEAKER_36]: The funniest radio show ever produced is back.
[00:56.160 --> 00:57.760]  [SPEAKER_36]: Poison darts!
[00:58.100 --> 01:02.640]  [SPEAKER_36]: The Poison Darts Minute debuts Monday, October 4th at 3.59 PM.
[01:02.900 --> 01:05.800]  [SPEAKER_36]: Continuing the adventures of Charles and Emily and Andrews.
[01:05.880 --> 01:11.100]  [SPEAKER_36]: The unmarried couple who adopted Mr. Waburn, an old man from the welfare department.
[01:11.360 --> 01:12.460]  [SPEAKER_02]: The Poison Darts Minute.
[01:12.720 --> 01:17.000]  [SPEAKER_02]: Every Monday through Thursday in October at 3.59 PM.
[01:17.000 --> 01:19.260]  [SPEAKER_02]: Hello, hello, hello.
[01:19.780 --> 01:22.320]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's the show about people answering the telephone.
[01:22.680 --> 01:26.000]  [SPEAKER_36]: Emily Ann, they brought you a carload of Venusian culture.
[01:26.300 --> 01:27.780]  [SPEAKER_30]: Oh, thanks, Mr. Waburn.
[01:27.980 --> 01:29.500]  [SPEAKER_30]: I was down to my last barrel.
[01:29.700 --> 01:29.940]  [SPEAKER_03]: Quiet.
[01:30.360 --> 01:31.160]  [SPEAKER_03]: This is Steve Post.
[01:31.660 --> 01:33.980]  [SPEAKER_03]: Have you ever thought of becoming a radio announcer?
[01:34.540 --> 01:38.560]  [SPEAKER_03]: You can train now at the Steve Post School of Audio Excellence.
[01:38.940 --> 01:44.040]  [SPEAKER_22]: The Poison Darts Minute is written by David Dozer and stars the author and Janet Coleman as Charles and Emily Ann.
[01:44.040 --> 01:46.120]  [SPEAKER_03]: And Peter Zanger as Mr. Waburn.
[01:46.440 --> 01:50.520]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, it's Bob Fass at the Jim Freund School of Microphone Arts.
[01:50.780 --> 01:51.780]  [SPEAKER_14]: The Poison Darts Minute.
[01:51.960 --> 01:55.760]  [SPEAKER_14]: Every Monday through Thursday in October at 3.59 PM.
[01:56.080 --> 01:59.880]  [SPEAKER_03]: More than just a summer replacement show for Hello, it's Goodbye.
[02:03.690 --> 02:06.590]  [SPEAKER_11]: And it's 10 o'clock on Wednesday night.
[02:06.750 --> 02:08.810]  [SPEAKER_11]: That means once again it's time for Off the Hook.
[02:14.840 --> 02:36.580]  [SPEAKER_16]: The telephone keeps ringing So I ripped it off the wall I cut myself on shaving Now I can't make a cough But it's much worse But if I can't say rude I'm going to fall for the best to stay for us I hope that's understood I'm going to fall
[03:19.380 --> 03:20.940]  [SPEAKER_11]: And a good evening to one and all.
[03:21.220 --> 03:35.980]  [SPEAKER_11]: This is Off the Hook, the program that tells you how to use your telephone, tells you how your telephone can be used against you, and updates you on all the latest in computer foul-ups and strange things going on throughout the planet.
[03:35.980 --> 03:38.500]  [SPEAKER_11]: And that's exactly what we're going to... Whoa.
[03:39.860 --> 03:42.700]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, that's exactly what we're going to do tonight.
[03:42.700 --> 03:46.100]  [SPEAKER_11]: We have some news updates, special guests, that kind of thing.
[03:46.140 --> 03:50.840]  [SPEAKER_11]: And of course, your phone calls at 212-279-3400.
[03:53.180 --> 03:54.960]  [SPEAKER_11]: The theme music gets stranger every week.
[03:54.960 --> 04:09.440]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, let's start right in by talking about something that we started to bring up last week concerning a college prank and an FBI investigation into the college prank.
[04:09.860 --> 04:20.560]  [SPEAKER_11]: Basically, somebody made some fake email at a college and made somebody resign that wasn't supposed to resign.
[04:20.560 --> 04:26.560]  [SPEAKER_11]: You know, kind of like one of those things that happens in your college years.
[04:26.780 --> 04:33.640]  [SPEAKER_11]: The only difference is this was done on a computer, and because it was done on a computer, it became federal and the FBI got involved.
[04:34.740 --> 04:38.920]  [SPEAKER_11]: Imagine doing this on paper and having the FBI investigate.
[04:39.040 --> 04:40.260]  [SPEAKER_11]: It would be rather absurd.
[04:40.440 --> 04:50.280]  [SPEAKER_11]: And at least a few people on the network seem to agree with this, taking a look at some things that came across the Risks Digest over the past week.
[04:50.560 --> 04:52.240]  [SPEAKER_11]: This is from Frederick Cohen.
[04:52.360 --> 04:54.020]  [SPEAKER_11]: You may know him as a virus expert.
[04:54.480 --> 04:59.060]  [SPEAKER_11]: And this is concerning the FBI investigating such college pranks.
[04:59.240 --> 05:09.240]  [SPEAKER_11]: He says, It's a sad state of affairs when the FBI investigates a college prank, but doesn't investigate murder and rape running rampant through the nation.
[05:10.280 --> 05:17.360]  [SPEAKER_11]: When I was in college, students sent a resignation letter from the dean of students to the president on official letterhead.
[05:17.940 --> 05:27.160]  [SPEAKER_11]: There was no federal investigation, and the most any student would ever get for such a prank would be a stern lecture about being sociable.
[05:29.560 --> 05:34.660]  [SPEAKER_11]: If they investigated half the pranks, the FBI would be forever chasing kids around our college campuses.
[05:35.480 --> 05:36.740]  [SPEAKER_11]: Hey, you know, he should wake up.
[05:36.800 --> 05:38.200]  [SPEAKER_11]: That's exactly what they seem to be doing.
[05:38.980 --> 05:40.000]  [SPEAKER_11]: Them and the Secret Service.
[05:42.240 --> 05:48.360]  [SPEAKER_11]: Let's keep some perspective on things and spend our federal time and money on something more useful.
[05:50.900 --> 05:56.060]  [SPEAKER_11]: How about a study of how many times a butterfly flaps its wings before it dies?
[05:59.180 --> 06:05.820]  [SPEAKER_11]: And, uh, this from the Wall Street Journal of October 7th.
[06:06.520 --> 06:13.440]  [SPEAKER_11]: Federal safety investigators said autopilot problems have caused certain Boeing jets to change direction for no apparent reason.
[06:14.500 --> 06:31.880]  [SPEAKER_11]: The National Transportation Safety Board has asked the Federal Aviation Administration to warn pilots that autopilots on Boeing 757 and 767 airplanes have engaged and disengaged on their own, and to take precautionary measures.
[06:32.220 --> 06:36.460]  [SPEAKER_11]: The FAA said it would put the matter under high-priority review.
[06:37.300 --> 06:44.440]  [SPEAKER_11]: The autopilots of Boeing 757s and 767s are made by Collins Avionics, a division of Rockwell International.
[06:45.020 --> 06:47.940]  [SPEAKER_11]: Collins officials couldn't be reached to comment.
[06:51.860 --> 06:54.460]  [SPEAKER_11]: And, this reassuring note from Canada.
[06:57.930 --> 07:04.290]  [SPEAKER_11]: Supposedly, Bank of America fired an employee after snooping in his email, discovering that he worked as a mail stripper at night.
[07:05.050 --> 07:06.610]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, that's not entirely true.
[07:06.610 --> 07:07.350]  [SPEAKER_11]: That was the rumor.
[07:07.510 --> 07:16.130]  [SPEAKER_11]: The truth is that the Bank of America fired the man after it discovered his moonlighting, but they discovered it by going through his desk, not his email.
[07:18.170 --> 07:27.550]  [SPEAKER_11]: And, what's interesting about this is that this, along with 500 other invasions of privacy, are written up in War Stories, which is a collection published by Privacy Journal.
[07:29.190 --> 07:33.450]  [SPEAKER_11]: And, I suppose we should give information on how to get something like that, because it is of interest to people who listen.
[07:33.450 --> 07:43.630]  [SPEAKER_11]: You can either call 401-274-7861, or you can write to P.O.
[07:43.670 --> 07:50.190]  [SPEAKER_11]: Box 28577, Providence, Rhode Island, 02908.
[07:52.230 --> 07:55.070]  [SPEAKER_11]: And, that's the folks over at Privacy Journal.
[07:55.330 --> 07:56.650]  [SPEAKER_11]: Interesting publication there.
[08:01.290 --> 08:09.690]  [SPEAKER_11]: And, for those of you that feel this is just a waste of time, you know, that we talk about things that, well, it doesn't really affect us.
[08:10.770 --> 08:14.250]  [SPEAKER_11]: We've got something to think about, something that probably will affect you.
[08:16.470 --> 08:18.890]  [SPEAKER_11]: This, uh, comes from Andrew Hagen.
[08:20.950 --> 08:34.950]  [SPEAKER_11]: He says, It's enough that everyone has taken for granted that the danger of massive nuclear war has passed, while nuclear missiles in the former Soviet Union remain pointed at U.S.
[08:35.010 --> 08:35.930]  [SPEAKER_11]: and Western targets.
[08:35.930 --> 08:50.850]  [SPEAKER_11]: But now, if the software has a few bugs in the code that decides when all Russian military leaders are dead, and it is triggered by some anomaly, well, then a very serious, huge disaster would follow.
[08:54.870 --> 08:55.350]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yes.
[08:58.440 --> 09:04.940]  [SPEAKER_11]: And, uh, here's something, as a final note, that, uh, I think is fascinating.
[09:07.940 --> 09:15.400]  [SPEAKER_11]: This comes from, uh, from, uh, it's kind of hard to tell.
[09:15.480 --> 09:16.160]  [SPEAKER_11]: This came electronically.
[09:16.160 --> 09:19.580]  [SPEAKER_11]: I'm not sure if it came from Jay Hudson or Mike Covey.
[09:19.680 --> 09:21.220]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, one of those two people writes this.
[09:21.700 --> 09:23.420]  [SPEAKER_11]: Maybe they both sort of wrote it together.
[09:26.040 --> 09:30.480]  [SPEAKER_11]: Most of us probably already know how much damage can be done with the magic three pieces of information.
[09:30.720 --> 09:32.640]  [SPEAKER_11]: You know what the magic three pieces of information are?
[09:34.880 --> 09:35.480]  [SPEAKER_11]: You don't.
[09:35.580 --> 09:39.320]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, there's at least a few people out there that don't know what the magic three pieces of information are.
[09:39.320 --> 09:40.480]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, I'll give you a hint.
[09:41.540 --> 09:45.260]  [SPEAKER_11]: We should all have the magic three pieces of information about ourselves.
[09:46.480 --> 09:54.040]  [SPEAKER_11]: And it's very likely that many of us have the magic three pieces of information on a lot of other people as well.
[09:55.140 --> 10:01.500]  [SPEAKER_11]: And it's with those magic three pieces of information that you can do all kinds of wondrous things and all kinds of really nasty things, too.
[10:02.360 --> 10:07.800]  [SPEAKER_11]: The three pieces of information are, of course, your name, your date of birth, and your social security number.
[10:08.300 --> 10:09.100]  [SPEAKER_11]: Got that information?
[10:10.100 --> 10:11.600]  [SPEAKER_11]: There's much that can be done.
[10:12.520 --> 10:13.420]  [SPEAKER_11]: Here's a story.
[10:13.860 --> 10:18.520]  [SPEAKER_11]: In Massachusetts, the default driver's license is your social security number.
[10:19.000 --> 10:25.280]  [SPEAKER_11]: In the USA, the default identifying number on your credit history file is also your social security number.
[10:26.020 --> 10:30.240]  [SPEAKER_11]: Two years ago, my wallet with my driver's license inside was stolen.
[10:30.920 --> 10:40.680]  [SPEAKER_11]: Using the magic three pieces of information which were on the license, some person called TRW Information Services and obtained a copy of my credit history.
[10:41.280 --> 10:42.860]  [SPEAKER_11]: It cost them $8.
[10:45.040 --> 10:48.600]  [SPEAKER_11]: On the credit history was every current credit card number.
[10:50.500 --> 10:58.360]  [SPEAKER_11]: Armed with the magic three pieces of information plus a credit card number, the person convinced the credit card company to change my mailing address.
[10:59.100 --> 11:05.280]  [SPEAKER_11]: A few days later, the person called and reported the card had been destroyed and got a new one.
[11:06.220 --> 11:11.820]  [SPEAKER_11]: Within a week, the person had run up $8,000 in automatic teller machine cash withdrawals using the card.
[11:13.060 --> 11:26.520]  [SPEAKER_11]: Now, the credit card company, which wishes to remain anonymous, readily admits that their customer service agent should never have changed the mailing address of the card based on only the magic three pieces of information.
[11:26.520 --> 11:30.280]  [SPEAKER_11]: However, their security system clearly failed in this case.
[11:32.780 --> 11:42.540]  [SPEAKER_11]: Having dealt with six different credit card companies during the history of this little affair, I can attest to the fact that the magic three pieces of information are all that is needed to pass most companies' security.
[11:45.140 --> 11:50.300]  [SPEAKER_11]: And a follow-up to this from Jeff Kooning.
[11:51.900 --> 11:57.440]  [SPEAKER_11]: He says, I recently moved and took the easy way out in several cases by filing my change of address by telephone.
[11:58.100 --> 12:04.540]  [SPEAKER_11]: I was pleased to note that several companies sent me a follow-up letter of the form, quote, we recently processed your address change.
[12:04.680 --> 12:06.360]  [SPEAKER_11]: Please contact us if this is incorrect.
[12:06.640 --> 12:07.000]  [SPEAKER_11]: Unquote.
[12:08.780 --> 12:12.740]  [SPEAKER_11]: Unfortunately, in every case, they sent the letter only to the new address.
[12:16.030 --> 12:20.230]  [SPEAKER_11]: Doesn't do you much good if I get sent to an address that you know nothing about.
[12:21.090 --> 12:26.850]  [SPEAKER_11]: All right, and this brings us to a point where I kind of like to try something out.
[12:26.970 --> 12:27.570]  [SPEAKER_11]: Now, this is risky.
[12:27.690 --> 12:28.330]  [SPEAKER_11]: This is dangerous.
[12:28.670 --> 12:34.250]  [SPEAKER_11]: This is something that you won't get on all those other programs about high technology that are on at this time slot.
[12:35.850 --> 12:43.950]  [SPEAKER_11]: But we're going to do it anyway because we believe in testing the waters and trying things that may work or may not work.
[12:44.690 --> 12:48.630]  [SPEAKER_11]: We're going to call at random, at random, a credit card company.
[12:49.390 --> 12:50.290]  [SPEAKER_11]: We're going to ask them.
[12:50.710 --> 12:53.810]  [SPEAKER_11]: We're going to ask them what it takes to change your address.
[12:55.190 --> 12:56.430]  [SPEAKER_11]: Got a bunch of cards here.
[12:57.870 --> 12:58.470]  [SPEAKER_11]: Shuffling them.
[12:59.630 --> 13:04.250]  [SPEAKER_11]: Kind of hard to shuffle plastic cards, but we're going to do it anyway.
[13:05.170 --> 13:05.530]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay.
[13:05.970 --> 13:07.130]  [SPEAKER_11]: We have a number here.
[13:08.550 --> 13:14.610]  [SPEAKER_11]: We have a number and we're going to try and get some information.
[13:16.070 --> 13:18.970]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay, let's see if we can get our magical dial tone.
[13:21.170 --> 13:22.290]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay, do we have...
[13:22.290 --> 13:23.310]  [SPEAKER_11]: No, we don't.
[13:23.930 --> 13:25.450]  [SPEAKER_11]: All right, we have technical problems.
[13:25.570 --> 13:27.350]  [SPEAKER_11]: Let's fix the technical problems right now.
[13:30.930 --> 13:31.750]  [SPEAKER_11]: All right.
[13:33.630 --> 13:36.410]  [SPEAKER_11]: Now, I believe we have a line.
[13:36.710 --> 13:37.670]  [SPEAKER_11]: Let's get out of dial tone there.
[13:37.850 --> 13:39.190]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay, we're in business.
[13:40.590 --> 13:42.310]  [SPEAKER_11]: Things you have to do to set up things around here.
[13:42.990 --> 13:43.870]  [SPEAKER_11]: All right, let's give a call.
[13:45.870 --> 13:46.270]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay.
[13:46.950 --> 13:48.670]  [SPEAKER_11]: I suppose the phone company thinks that's funny.
[13:48.670 --> 13:50.290]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, let's try another line.
[13:53.290 --> 13:53.990]  [SPEAKER_11]: That's better.
[13:54.350 --> 13:56.510]  [SPEAKER_11]: That's what happens if you don't pay that Touch-Tone fee.
[13:58.590 --> 14:04.450]  [SPEAKER_11]: Your tones just go out into space and absolutely nothing happens to them.
[14:04.930 --> 14:07.430]  [SPEAKER_11]: All right, let's see what we can find out here.
[14:10.280 --> 14:12.720]  [SPEAKER_21]: Thank you for calling the Chase Bank Card Center.
[14:13.260 --> 14:15.720]  [SPEAKER_21]: This service requires a Touch-Tone telephone.
[14:16.080 --> 14:19.280]  [SPEAKER_21]: If you have a Touch-Tone telephone, please press 1 now.
[14:19.280 --> 14:25.060]  [SPEAKER_21]: If you do not have a Touch-Tone telephone, please hold and a customer service representative will assist you.
[14:25.680 --> 14:27.100]  [SPEAKER_11]: Let's go for that option there.
[14:28.680 --> 14:30.080]  [SPEAKER_11]: Get lost in Touch-Tone land.
[14:32.700 --> 14:35.480]  [SPEAKER_21]: Please stay on the line for customer service assistance.
[14:36.940 --> 14:37.680]  [SPEAKER_11]: Oh, what fun.
[14:38.220 --> 14:39.160]  [SPEAKER_11]: And we get music, too.
[14:40.040 --> 14:41.520]  [SPEAKER_11]: Hey, that's the music they play on TV.
[14:41.800 --> 14:42.560]  [SPEAKER_14]: Good evening, Chase.
[14:42.800 --> 14:44.360]  [SPEAKER_14]: Customer service, Mr. Brad Miller.
[14:44.500 --> 14:45.160]  [SPEAKER_14]: Help me help you, please.
[14:45.340 --> 14:47.120]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yes, I just had a general question.
[14:47.120 --> 14:50.720]  [SPEAKER_11]: I was wondering if in the future I wanted to change my address.
[14:51.000 --> 14:52.180]  [SPEAKER_11]: Could I do that over the phone?
[14:52.800 --> 14:53.240]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yes, sir.
[14:53.500 --> 14:55.380]  [SPEAKER_11]: And what would I need to provide in order to do that?
[14:56.960 --> 15:02.860]  [SPEAKER_14]: Verification, you know, like social security number, mother's maiden name, previous address.
[15:03.300 --> 15:03.540]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay.
[15:04.580 --> 15:06.700]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay, so mother's maiden name.
[15:06.780 --> 15:07.900]  [SPEAKER_11]: See, I don't have an account with this.
[15:08.080 --> 15:10.040]  [SPEAKER_11]: Would I have to give that information in order to get a card?
[15:12.480 --> 15:13.960]  [SPEAKER_14]: In order to get a card, sir?
[15:14.020 --> 15:14.500]  [SPEAKER_14]: What do you mean?
[15:15.500 --> 15:18.860]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, I would have to give you my mother's maiden name in order to get a card.
[15:18.880 --> 15:19.660]  [SPEAKER_11]: Is that correct?
[15:20.700 --> 15:22.700]  [SPEAKER_14]: Do you have an account with us presently, sir?
[15:22.760 --> 15:23.900]  [SPEAKER_11]: No, I don't have an account yet.
[15:23.900 --> 15:29.640]  [SPEAKER_11]: I was thinking of getting an account, but I just wanted to know what it would take in order to do that if I did decide to change my address.
[15:30.360 --> 15:31.760]  [SPEAKER_14]: That's what we would have to have, sir.
[15:31.780 --> 15:34.180]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay, so I would have to give you that information in order for you to have it.
[15:34.600 --> 15:35.740]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay, well, thank you very much.
[15:36.000 --> 15:36.500]  [SPEAKER_11]: Thank you.
[15:36.720 --> 15:37.020]  [SPEAKER_11]: All right.
[15:37.800 --> 15:42.580]  [SPEAKER_11]: And I think I've totally confused him as far as that goes.
[15:42.640 --> 15:43.320]  [SPEAKER_11]: Let's try one more.
[15:45.940 --> 15:46.380]  [SPEAKER_11]: Let's see.
[15:46.480 --> 15:47.640]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay, let's try this one over here.
[15:49.240 --> 15:50.280]  [SPEAKER_11]: Do we have...
[15:50.280 --> 15:51.540]  [SPEAKER_11]: Do we have a line?
[15:51.880 --> 15:52.820]  [SPEAKER_11]: All right, we don't have a line.
[15:52.880 --> 15:53.820]  [SPEAKER_11]: We have to get a line again.
[15:55.420 --> 15:57.060]  [SPEAKER_11]: They certainly make things challenging around here.
[16:00.380 --> 16:03.320]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay, I believe we're in the process of getting a dial tone.
[16:06.370 --> 16:07.410]  [SPEAKER_11]: And we have one.
[16:14.340 --> 16:19.140]  [SPEAKER_12]: Of course, we'll meet up with the Thank you for calling American Express, gold card division.
[16:19.320 --> 16:19.540]  [SPEAKER_11]: Ah.
[16:19.920 --> 16:25.720]  [SPEAKER_12]: If you have a Touch-Tone phone and have a question about your balance or a recent payment, please press one.
[16:26.220 --> 16:32.140]  [SPEAKER_12]: If you need to report a lost, stolen, non-received, or replacement card, please press two.
[16:32.700 --> 16:38.320]  [SPEAKER_12]: If you would like to speak to a representative, please press zero or hold, and you will be...
[16:38.320 --> 16:38.800]  [SPEAKER_11]: Zero.
[16:43.130 --> 16:44.990]  [SPEAKER_24]: American Express gold card, Ms. John speaking.
[16:44.990 --> 16:45.870]  [SPEAKER_24]: How may I help you?
[16:46.050 --> 16:48.310]  [SPEAKER_11]: Hi, I just had a very general question.
[16:48.310 --> 16:49.810]  [SPEAKER_11]: I was wondering if you might be able to help me with that.
[16:49.970 --> 16:50.190]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay.
[16:50.910 --> 16:58.870]  [SPEAKER_11]: Basically, I was thinking of changing my address in about a month or so, and I was wondering if I can do that over the phone when the time comes, and if I can, what I need to provide at that point.
[16:59.170 --> 17:06.750]  [SPEAKER_24]: Yes, you can do that over the phone, and you just need to provide your account number, and then the representative will just ask some identification questions.
[17:07.210 --> 17:07.470]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay.
[17:07.990 --> 17:11.630]  [SPEAKER_11]: So, things that you would already have, nothing that I have to look up or anything like that.
[17:11.630 --> 17:14.750]  [SPEAKER_24]: No, things that you would already know, like just general questions about the account.
[17:15.050 --> 17:15.290]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh-huh.
[17:15.410 --> 17:19.770]  [SPEAKER_11]: So, maybe my social security number, my name, and my account number.
[17:20.330 --> 17:20.690]  [SPEAKER_24]: Right.
[17:20.810 --> 17:21.330]  [SPEAKER_24]: Things like that.
[17:21.430 --> 17:21.630]  [SPEAKER_24]: Okay.
[17:21.770 --> 17:22.830]  [SPEAKER_11]: That sounds fair enough.
[17:23.030 --> 17:23.210]  [SPEAKER_11]: All right.
[17:23.250 --> 17:23.770]  [SPEAKER_11]: Thank you very much.
[17:23.890 --> 17:24.210]  [SPEAKER_24]: You're welcome.
[17:24.330 --> 17:24.770]  [SPEAKER_24]: Thanks for calling.
[17:24.790 --> 17:25.030]  [SPEAKER_11]: Bye-bye.
[17:25.670 --> 17:27.590]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay, it's that simple there.
[17:28.210 --> 17:32.870]  [SPEAKER_11]: It doesn't sound like really it's all that difficult to get this information, like mother's maiden name.
[17:33.070 --> 17:39.890]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, you know, most of us don't keep that a secret, but the fact of the matter is when they ask you that question, they don't know if you're telling the truth.
[17:40.270 --> 17:49.010]  [SPEAKER_11]: So, you know, you can tell them that your mother's maiden name is 79, and they'll accept it because they're not going to check into it, but nobody else will know.
[17:49.190 --> 17:51.210]  [SPEAKER_11]: It'll be your little secret with the credit card company.
[17:51.270 --> 17:55.390]  [SPEAKER_11]: So, that's my little tip of the day for keeping this information confidential.
[17:55.390 --> 18:07.490]  [SPEAKER_11]: If you give them social security number, your real mother's maiden name, and all this other information that anybody else can find out, you could be wide open for all kinds of mean, nasty, ugly things.
[18:08.310 --> 18:08.810]  [SPEAKER_11]: All right.
[18:08.810 --> 18:14.070]  [SPEAKER_11]: We'll be talking with a special guest in a moment, and we'll be taking your phone calls in just a couple of minutes.
[18:14.270 --> 18:19.550]  [SPEAKER_11]: Here on Off the Hook, the phone number is 212-279-3400.
[22:49.360 --> 22:52.120]  [SPEAKER_11]: And it's just about 22 minutes after 10 o'clock.
[22:52.260 --> 22:55.060]  [SPEAKER_11]: That long pause, by the way, is for most embarrassing reason.
[22:55.160 --> 22:56.000]  [SPEAKER_11]: I couldn't dial out.
[22:56.000 --> 22:59.820]  [SPEAKER_11]: I couldn't get an outgoing line here, and I couldn't hack the system either.
[23:00.180 --> 23:05.400]  [SPEAKER_11]: It was completely unpenetrable, so we had to run down the hall and find a phone access code.
[23:05.520 --> 23:06.100]  [SPEAKER_11]: But we did it.
[23:06.320 --> 23:08.420]  [SPEAKER_11]: And we have on the line with us Craig Neidorf.
[23:08.800 --> 23:09.300]  [SPEAKER_11]: Craig, are you there?
[23:09.980 --> 23:10.580]  [SPEAKER_17]: Yeah, I'm here.
[23:10.740 --> 23:10.960]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay.
[23:11.100 --> 23:30.500]  [SPEAKER_11]: Craig is in Virginia, and those of you who have listened to the show for a number of years know Craig as the publisher, the ex-publisher of Phrack magazine, who was raided by the Secret Service, forced to stand trial for printing an article that was alleged to have cost Bell South something like $80,000.
[23:30.980 --> 23:33.100]  [SPEAKER_11]: It turns out that it was only worth about $14,000.
[23:33.920 --> 23:35.400]  [SPEAKER_11]: We haven't talked to Craig in a while.
[23:35.600 --> 23:39.580]  [SPEAKER_11]: I figure it's time to update folks, see if anything new has gone on.
[23:39.740 --> 23:40.920]  [SPEAKER_11]: Craig, anything new happening?
[23:42.140 --> 23:46.620]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, just that I think there's been a similar case going on that's up in Connecticut right now.
[23:46.760 --> 23:48.100]  [SPEAKER_20]: I don't know if you've heard about it too much.
[23:48.320 --> 23:49.280]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, tell us about it.
[23:49.960 --> 23:54.900]  [SPEAKER_20]: To be honest, I don't know that much about it, just I've read something on the Internet about it.
[23:54.960 --> 24:13.200]  [SPEAKER_20]: There's a guy who ran a bulletin board up in, I believe it was West Hartford, had a text file on his board that someone else had put up there, and it's actually a very old text file, containing information typed up from one of the Anarchist cookbook type of magazines or books that you could find in the bookstore.
[24:13.720 --> 24:14.580]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, what was it?
[24:14.640 --> 24:16.500]  [SPEAKER_11]: Something on how to make a bomb or something like that?
[24:16.540 --> 24:19.420]  [SPEAKER_20]: Right, a bomb or set fire to something.
[24:19.420 --> 24:33.720]  [SPEAKER_20]: I'm not sure exactly, but it had a little disclaimer inside, unlike most of the kinds of disclaimers you might have seen in Phrack or some other people's works, basically advocating that readers of the article actually use it for a damaging purpose.
[24:34.260 --> 24:44.440]  [SPEAKER_20]: And while that may make the author liable, it certainly shouldn't make the sys-op liable for carrying the file on his board, especially when it's a good chance he never even read the file himself.
[24:44.680 --> 24:46.900]  [SPEAKER_11]: So what wound up happening to the sys-op?
[24:46.900 --> 24:49.340]  [SPEAKER_20]: Uh, well, he's been in jail a while now.
[24:49.780 --> 24:50.960]  [SPEAKER_11]: They actually put him in jail.
[24:51.600 --> 24:55.780]  [SPEAKER_20]: Uh, $500,000 bond is a little more than I think his family could afford to post for him.
[24:55.860 --> 24:57.840]  [SPEAKER_11]: I think it's a little more than, than murderers get.
[24:59.120 --> 25:02.320]  [SPEAKER_20]: Yeah, well, I think it's another, uh, prosecutor trying to make a name for himself.
[25:02.860 --> 25:04.460]  [SPEAKER_20]: He had a hearing yesterday.
[25:05.220 --> 25:06.640]  [SPEAKER_20]: I, but I don't know what happened.
[25:06.780 --> 25:10.560]  [SPEAKER_20]: It's possible he, his bail might have been reduced at that hearing.
[25:11.040 --> 25:13.080]  [SPEAKER_20]: But, um, as of right now, I don't know.
[25:13.340 --> 25:15.200]  [SPEAKER_11]: Now, this case hasn't gotten all that much press.
[25:15.200 --> 25:17.260]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yes, I, I haven't been reading about this in newspapers.
[25:17.520 --> 25:18.280]  [SPEAKER_11]: Is there a reason for that?
[25:19.280 --> 25:20.020]  [SPEAKER_20]: Not that I'm aware of.
[25:20.080 --> 25:25.060]  [SPEAKER_20]: The only place I've seen any material about it has been in the, uh, what's called Computer Underground Digest.
[25:25.300 --> 25:27.380]  [SPEAKER_20]: The young man's name is Michael Elansky.
[25:27.920 --> 25:30.240]  [SPEAKER_20]: And I believe he used the handle of the Ionizer.
[25:30.520 --> 25:30.880]  [SPEAKER_17]: Okay.
[25:31.160 --> 25:32.540]  [SPEAKER_20]: I, I don't know what his board was called.
[25:33.580 --> 25:35.320]  [SPEAKER_20]: But, um, but it was up in Connecticut.
[25:36.080 --> 25:46.100]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, I'd like to see some of the journalists that listen to this program, uh, check this out a little bit and maybe if this, uh, if this deserves to be told to a lot more people, uh, maybe it's, uh, our obligation to spread the word.
[25:46.900 --> 25:46.980]  [SPEAKER_11]: Um.
[25:47.300 --> 25:53.820]  [SPEAKER_20]: One who, uh, is familiar with the 911 case, it's, uh, well, like three and a half years old now.
[25:54.020 --> 25:55.660]  [SPEAKER_11]: That was your case, the 911 case.
[25:55.660 --> 25:56.140]  [SPEAKER_20]: Right.
[25:56.340 --> 25:56.520]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[25:56.940 --> 26:04.620]  [SPEAKER_20]: I, um, I did a little research with the BELLCORE, uh, manual, the one that you can use to order documents, the 800 number.
[26:04.860 --> 26:05.020]  [SPEAKER_11]: Right.
[26:05.240 --> 26:10.760]  [SPEAKER_20]: A lot of the regional Bel operating companies now no longer sell their products through BELLCORE directly.
[26:11.400 --> 26:14.580]  [SPEAKER_20]: Uh, they'll still be in the catalog, but you have to write to them individually now.
[26:14.760 --> 26:19.800]  [SPEAKER_20]: You can only call up, for the most part, and order specific BELLCORE publications in the BELLCORE catalog.
[26:20.500 --> 26:31.480]  [SPEAKER_20]: So whereas some of the key documents in my trial were actual BellSouth publications that were sold from BELLCORE, today, if you were to order them, you'd have to contact Bel South specifically.
[26:33.080 --> 26:34.620]  [SPEAKER_20]: But not all of them charge.
[26:35.120 --> 26:42.500]  [SPEAKER_20]: Uh, as a matter of fact, at least when I placed an order, Ameritech on several of their documents had no charge whatsoever.
[26:42.940 --> 26:45.080]  [SPEAKER_11]: So anybody can, can call and get this information?
[26:45.680 --> 26:47.700]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, it's, um, you have to send it in writing.
[26:48.160 --> 26:48.360]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh-huh.
[26:48.360 --> 26:51.060]  [SPEAKER_20]: The instructions are in there, are in the BELLCORE catalog.
[26:51.260 --> 26:53.380]  [SPEAKER_20]: I think it's, uh, 1-800-521-CORE.
[26:53.980 --> 26:54.440]  [SPEAKER_19]: Okay.
[26:54.640 --> 26:55.740]  [SPEAKER_20]: I'd be happy to mail that to you.
[26:57.200 --> 27:02.780]  [SPEAKER_20]: Anyway, I looked through the BELLCORE catalog and saw some documents from Ameritech that, uh, had no fee.
[27:03.120 --> 27:11.980]  [SPEAKER_20]: Things on X.25 and X.75, about the, uh, Bell operating companies getting into cable services, you know, providing cable to television programming.
[27:12.360 --> 27:12.620]  [SPEAKER_11]: Right.
[27:12.620 --> 27:15.400]  [SPEAKER_20]: And even a document about 9-1-1.
[27:15.760 --> 27:16.240]  [SPEAKER_11]: Really?
[27:16.500 --> 27:20.200]  [SPEAKER_11]: Was it the same document as, that, uh, was supposedly worth $80,000?
[27:20.620 --> 27:21.000]  [SPEAKER_20]: No.
[27:21.320 --> 27:25.140]  [SPEAKER_20]: I mean, it wasn't the same as the, uh, Bell South document.
[27:25.260 --> 27:27.040]  [SPEAKER_20]: However, let me read this to you real quick.
[27:28.060 --> 27:39.240]  [SPEAKER_20]: It's called Interface of an E-9-1-1-PSAP, that stands for Public Safety Answering Point, to a 1A ESS switch and to an E-9-1-1-1 database.
[27:39.800 --> 27:40.640]  [SPEAKER_20]: It's very nice.
[27:40.800 --> 27:42.680]  [SPEAKER_20]: It, uh, becomes tape-bound.
[27:43.280 --> 27:44.780]  [SPEAKER_20]: Dated September 1991.
[27:45.700 --> 27:49.900]  [SPEAKER_20]: It has a little map of, uh, the state served by Ameritech on the front cover.
[27:50.280 --> 27:51.080]  [SPEAKER_11]: That's always handy.
[27:51.660 --> 27:57.320]  [SPEAKER_20]: And it is approximately 20, it's 23 pages.
[27:57.600 --> 27:59.780]  [SPEAKER_20]: It has some nice charts and graphs inside.
[28:00.420 --> 28:04.280]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, you didn't have any charts and graphs, and I think yours was only about 12 pages, wasn't it?
[28:04.640 --> 28:05.220]  [SPEAKER_20]: That's right.
[28:05.320 --> 28:05.820]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, it's 13.
[28:06.000 --> 28:07.460]  [SPEAKER_11]: 13 pages, so, uh...
[28:07.460 --> 28:09.780]  [SPEAKER_20]: Sorry, with 11, we chopped out 13 pages.
[28:09.780 --> 28:13.320]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, this could easily be worth a couple hundred thousand dollars in that document right there.
[28:13.480 --> 28:19.260]  [SPEAKER_20]: Right, now, this one does say inside this document cannot be reproduced with the express written permission of Ameritech.
[28:19.700 --> 28:27.040]  [SPEAKER_20]: However, they did send a letter that came with the documents and if I can find that here.
[28:28.860 --> 28:33.060]  [SPEAKER_20]: The letter does say, okay, attention, Craig Neidorf.
[28:33.620 --> 28:37.060]  [SPEAKER_20]: Dear Mr. Neidorf, per your request, I'm enclosing the following Ameritech publications.
[28:37.060 --> 28:38.840]  [SPEAKER_20]: They're listed here by document number.
[28:39.520 --> 28:48.800]  [SPEAKER_20]: And the paragraph reads below, Ameritech services hereby grants permission for you to reproduce the enclosed documents as necessary for internal use only.
[28:49.840 --> 28:50.540]  [SPEAKER_11]: That's incredible.
[28:50.660 --> 28:56.140]  [SPEAKER_11]: So you get a notice saying you can't reproduce the document but you get a reproduced letter saying that you can do that.
[28:56.400 --> 29:01.160]  [SPEAKER_20]: Of course, it says for internal use only but, I mean, how do you interpret something like that when you're an individual?
[29:01.720 --> 29:04.940]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, it's strictly all those people listening, keep it internal, okay?
[29:05.360 --> 29:07.300]  [SPEAKER_11]: I guess we can interpret it any way we want.
[29:07.740 --> 29:12.020]  [SPEAKER_20]: Were I still the editor of Phrack, would that mean that subscribers to Phrack would be considered internal?
[29:12.720 --> 29:15.440]  [SPEAKER_11]: That's, uh, I would consider it that way.
[29:15.600 --> 29:16.280]  [SPEAKER_11]: Tell us about Phrack.
[29:16.340 --> 29:17.460]  [SPEAKER_11]: How is Phrack doing these days?
[29:17.640 --> 29:19.000]  [SPEAKER_20]: Phrack is under new management.
[29:19.200 --> 29:19.540]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh-huh.
[29:20.120 --> 29:33.160]  [SPEAKER_20]: It's currently being run by Chris Goggins who some of your listeners might know as the, uh, one of the three so-called Legion of Doom members in Texas that once started a computer security consulting firm.
[29:33.480 --> 29:33.900]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh-huh.
[29:33.980 --> 29:35.620]  [SPEAKER_11]: Also the handle Erik Bloodaxe, I believe.
[29:35.820 --> 29:37.100]  [SPEAKER_20]: Right, I forgot to mention that.
[29:37.340 --> 29:37.460]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[29:38.060 --> 29:46.760]  [SPEAKER_20]: As far as I know, he's produced two issues and a third is expected either the last week of this month or the first week of next month.
[29:46.760 --> 29:55.700]  [SPEAKER_20]: I spoke to Chris and he said he may delay publication so we can have a story about the upcoming PumpCon, which is, uh, of course, Halloween weekend this year.
[29:56.040 --> 29:56.460]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh-huh.
[29:56.860 --> 29:58.160]  [SPEAKER_20]: I think it's outside of Philadelphia.
[29:58.580 --> 30:00.420]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, it's taking place in Pennsylvania this year.
[30:00.620 --> 30:02.120]  [SPEAKER_11]: That's, um, that's rather interesting, too.
[30:02.180 --> 30:03.420]  [SPEAKER_11]: I just thought I'd mention this.
[30:03.660 --> 30:20.040]  [SPEAKER_11]: Um, uh, there was a PumpCon last year in upstate New York and it got raided, uh, and it's a whole long-sorted tale as far as that goes, but, uh, really, um, I think hilarious part of the PumpCon invitations for this year, uh, says that part of the admission fee will be used to aid the victims of last year's PumpCon.
[30:20.360 --> 30:23.460]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's just, you have to wonder, you know, where these things are going to go.
[30:24.300 --> 30:24.960]  [SPEAKER_20]: You know what?
[30:25.100 --> 30:29.800]  [SPEAKER_20]: From what I've heard, there's sounds like there's going to be more law enforcement people planning to attend.
[30:30.080 --> 30:30.460]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh-huh.
[30:30.660 --> 30:33.780]  [SPEAKER_20]: And, uh, you know, so-called computer hackers and other enthusiasts.
[30:34.280 --> 30:35.780]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's almost, it's getting that way.
[30:35.940 --> 30:40.480]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, there was a convention, uh, down in Las Vegas, um, this past summer.
[30:41.320 --> 30:42.640]  [SPEAKER_11]: Um, what was that called again?
[30:43.480 --> 30:43.840]  [SPEAKER_11]: DEFCON.
[30:44.000 --> 30:44.540]  [SPEAKER_11]: DEFCON, yeah.
[30:44.700 --> 30:46.080]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay, it's hard to keep track of all these things.
[30:46.600 --> 30:53.880]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, then, of course, there's SummerCon, and, uh, it takes place every summer in St. Louis, and there's HoHoCon, which I believe is taking place in Austin this, uh, this winter.
[30:54.320 --> 30:57.760]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, is there, is there an upsurge in hacker conventions all of a sudden?
[30:57.960 --> 31:06.220]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, I don't know, but I think, you know, as far as the law enforcement people are concerned, these cons are great for them because it gets them, uh, you know, free vacations on company time.
[31:06.660 --> 31:16.860]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, in fact, when I was over in Amsterdam, I was thanked by several people who said, uh, because of me, they were able to get, uh, free tickets to Amsterdam so that they could talk to me over there.
[31:17.380 --> 31:19.500]  [SPEAKER_11]: You know, I had to wonder, why couldn't you talk to me in New York?
[31:19.560 --> 31:25.480]  [SPEAKER_11]: I mean, we're both from New York, but no, they felt they had to, uh, these are media people and governmental officials and things like that.
[31:25.840 --> 31:30.800]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, they, they, they had to ask special permission to go to Amsterdam so that they could talk to me in that environment.
[31:31.000 --> 31:34.000]  [SPEAKER_11]: I, I don't, I don't get it, but yeah, I think a few people are taking advantage of this.
[31:34.620 --> 31:47.340]  [SPEAKER_20]: There is, uh, there is some talk we are considering moving summer con this year for, uh, different reasons, a lot of which has to do with the fact that, um, the founders of the conference no longer live in St. Louis.
[31:47.520 --> 31:48.400]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, that is true.
[31:48.840 --> 31:54.540]  [SPEAKER_20]: Um, and it, uh, it's getting increasingly difficult to, uh, plan these things from, from, uh, 800 miles away.
[31:54.820 --> 31:58.500]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, you know, it, it would be awfully confusing if you had two summer cons at the same time.
[31:58.620 --> 32:00.240]  [SPEAKER_11]: That way they wouldn't know which ones to spy on.
[32:00.480 --> 32:12.960]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, it's also sort of the rationale behind the 2,600 meetings where we have something like 25 meetings all going on at the same time, uh, that just aren't enough, uh, corporate spies and federal agents to, to be in all places at the same time.
[32:14.180 --> 32:18.200]  [SPEAKER_20]: Yeah, well, there were quite a few, uh, the same place at the same time about a year ago.
[32:19.360 --> 32:27.300]  [SPEAKER_20]: Uh, well, say the next meeting will be in November here, and that's, of course, when the famous Secret Service Pentagon City Mall incident took place.
[32:27.420 --> 32:32.280]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yes, it seems like longer than a year ago, but it was only one year ago this November that that took place.
[32:32.680 --> 32:38.820]  [SPEAKER_11]: And that's a story that's not yet over, as there's still more information coming out of that, and of course, we'll bring that to you here and off the hook.
[32:39.480 --> 32:44.140]  [SPEAKER_20]: You know, as long as I have you on the line here, I know that you're going to be visiting Washington, D.C.
[32:44.200 --> 32:44.640]  [SPEAKER_20]: next month.
[32:44.640 --> 32:51.000]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, now, there's some kind of, some kind of really strange, bizarre, unique conference going on there.
[32:51.100 --> 32:52.020]  [SPEAKER_11]: You want to tell the folks about that?
[32:52.580 --> 33:01.280]  [SPEAKER_20]: Believe me, you probably know more about the conference than I do, but what I was going to bring up is that the conference lasts Tuesday through Thursday of the week prior to the 2600 meeting.
[33:01.520 --> 33:01.840]  [SPEAKER_17]: Uh-huh.
[33:02.500 --> 33:13.040]  [SPEAKER_20]: And this being the one-year anniversary of the incident here in Washington, D.C., 2200 meeting, and you being here the Thursday before, we're thinking maybe we could get you to stay an extra day.
[33:13.700 --> 33:16.180]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, that's something that you'll have to negotiate with my agent.
[33:17.460 --> 33:19.000]  [SPEAKER_11]: But what's the exact date of that?
[33:19.920 --> 33:22.220]  [SPEAKER_20]: I believe it's the 2nd through the 4th of November.
[33:22.620 --> 33:22.940]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh-huh.
[33:23.960 --> 33:27.140]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay, well, that's a governmental type of thing, right?
[33:27.440 --> 33:27.980]  [SPEAKER_20]: It's right.
[33:28.180 --> 33:33.600]  [SPEAKER_20]: There's a private organization called Open System Solutions.
[33:33.920 --> 33:35.460]  [SPEAKER_20]: No, I'm sorry, Open Source Solutions.
[33:35.720 --> 33:36.080]  [SPEAKER_17]: Uh-huh.
[33:36.480 --> 33:48.600]  [SPEAKER_20]: And I believe the conference has to do with computer security as far as it applies to foreign invaders and foreign intelligence agencies.
[33:48.820 --> 33:49.700]  [SPEAKER_11]: Foreign invaders.
[33:49.800 --> 33:50.580]  [SPEAKER_11]: How fascinating.
[33:50.880 --> 34:00.480]  [SPEAKER_11]: Now, of course, you have all these federal agents coming to hacker conventions and hacker meetings, but now you also have hackers going to these corporate and governmental conventions.
[34:01.040 --> 34:04.080]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, I think more and more, maybe the tide is beginning to turn.
[34:04.080 --> 34:18.760]  [SPEAKER_20]: Maybe some of the people in government, in private corporations are beginning to recognize that as long as these hackers are out there, they might as well exploit them for some of the value that they bring from their knowledge and not treat everyone like they were the enemy just because they had some childhood exploits.
[34:19.080 --> 34:19.300]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh-huh.
[34:20.500 --> 34:23.840]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, hopefully, dialogue will be a positive thing.
[34:24.380 --> 34:27.060]  [SPEAKER_11]: But in any event, it'll be interesting in the next couple of months.
[34:27.840 --> 34:31.780]  [SPEAKER_11]: Craig, I know you have to study for a test, so I don't want to keep you on the phone too much longer.
[34:32.420 --> 34:34.080]  [SPEAKER_11]: We do want to start taking some phone calls.
[34:34.180 --> 34:35.780]  [SPEAKER_11]: So is there anything else you wanted to say in conclusion?
[34:36.700 --> 34:40.120]  [SPEAKER_20]: No, just that I'm glad to see that your show is still on.
[34:40.760 --> 34:43.880]  [SPEAKER_11]: We're glad to see you're still around and still taking an interest in things.
[34:44.120 --> 34:49.020]  [SPEAKER_20]: But it appears that my case was just the first.
[34:49.240 --> 34:52.440]  [SPEAKER_20]: I mean, it really wasn't the first, but it wasn't the end either.
[34:52.680 --> 35:08.700]  [SPEAKER_20]: There's been a lot more people, First Amendment issues, bulletin board operators, a lot more prosecutors saying that First Amendment does not apply to electronic media and holding third parties responsible for printed electronic data that's passing through their systems.
[35:10.140 --> 35:20.980]  [SPEAKER_20]: And as we become more computerized and more online with all the Internet and various other computer systems that, bulletin boards and so forth, it really makes you stop and wonder just, you know, what we're coming to here.
[35:22.220 --> 35:26.240]  [SPEAKER_20]: And best wishes for Michael Lansky, who was just the latest victim.
[35:26.420 --> 35:30.800]  [SPEAKER_11]: We'll be following that case, and hopefully we'll have some news, some updates on that in the weeks ahead.
[35:31.020 --> 35:32.860]  [SPEAKER_11]: Craig, thanks again, and good luck.
[35:33.100 --> 35:33.760]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay, well, thank you.
[35:34.600 --> 35:46.660]  [SPEAKER_11]: Craig Neidorf, former publisher of Phrack magazine, and of course he was put on trial back in 1990 for publishing an article that Bell South slightly exaggerated the worth of.
[35:47.980 --> 35:51.800]  [SPEAKER_11]: All right, we have some updates.
[35:51.940 --> 35:57.740]  [SPEAKER_11]: Razor has just come in with an update on some news you may have heard on the radio, the commercial radio stations today.
[35:59.160 --> 36:09.060]  [SPEAKER_11]: concerning a big takeover, not a takeover, but a merger, not only a merger of companies, but a merger of technology, something that will affect each and every one of you listening.
[36:09.400 --> 36:10.460]  [SPEAKER_11]: So, Razor, take it away.
[36:11.820 --> 36:25.640]  [SPEAKER_30]: Okay, today there was on Channel 10, the CEOs of both Bell Atlantic and TCI, which is Telecommunications something incorporated, I'm not quite sure, have merged.
[36:25.740 --> 36:28.700]  [SPEAKER_11]: TCI is probably, I think, the biggest cable company in the country.
[36:29.020 --> 36:37.740]  [SPEAKER_30]: Yeah, I'm not sure exactly, but anyway, it's a $33 billion merger, which is the biggest merger to date.
[36:38.000 --> 36:41.920]  [SPEAKER_30]: It's bigger than the Nabisco mergers, which are the most famous.
[36:42.460 --> 36:53.200]  [SPEAKER_30]: And basically, Bell Atlantic now and TCI, their CEOs announced that they were going to put a lot of effort forward toward the multimedia and electronic communities.
[36:53.200 --> 37:03.880]  [SPEAKER_30]: And basically, they sounded like that they were going to monopolize the entire multimedia industry, such as video conferencing, interactive television.
[37:04.200 --> 37:13.160]  [SPEAKER_30]: And although they all made it sound good, it's basically, it's going to be a $33 billion monopoly over the new technology such as 3DO and various other things.
[37:13.720 --> 37:31.040]  [SPEAKER_30]: Now, what bothers me is that like we saw the breakup of AT&T into the regional Bell operating companies, no one seems to be taking any action here for these two giant corporate entities to merge and start taking over our electronics and electronic frontier.
[37:31.420 --> 37:31.900]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh-huh.
[37:32.440 --> 37:39.200]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, some of what I've heard is that your television set will become the center of attention, as if it isn't already for most people.
[37:39.620 --> 37:42.360]  [SPEAKER_11]: But you will get your mail through the television set.
[37:42.360 --> 37:49.660]  [SPEAKER_11]: You'll be able to communicate with people and, of course, watch TV and shop and do just about everything imaginable.
[37:50.400 --> 37:53.460]  [SPEAKER_11]: But I take it that's not necessarily a positive thing.
[37:53.700 --> 37:58.840]  [SPEAKER_30]: Well, I mean, I think it's definitely positive to have interactive multimedia and television.
[37:59.260 --> 38:05.620]  [SPEAKER_30]: And with the 500 channels coming soon, you're definitely going to have a hell of a lot of stimulative media to watch.
[38:05.800 --> 38:06.100]  [SPEAKER_30]: Uh-huh.
[38:06.100 --> 38:09.520]  [SPEAKER_30]: But I think these are all good things the company is doing.
[38:09.700 --> 38:18.500]  [SPEAKER_30]: I think the bad thing is that they want to monopolize the industry and not give any small third-party developers a chance to take stake in this new frontier.
[38:18.760 --> 38:20.860]  [SPEAKER_11]: Have they actually said that or is that just the interpretation?
[38:21.220 --> 38:23.080]  [SPEAKER_30]: Yeah, that's my interpretation as well.
[38:23.200 --> 38:32.080]  [SPEAKER_30]: I've gotten feedback from a lot of people on what was going on in this television show and all the corporate briefs that they've sent out detailing the merger.
[38:32.220 --> 38:37.100]  [SPEAKER_11]: Now, this just happened today, so it's kind of early to say exactly where this is heading or if it's actually going to happen.
[38:37.280 --> 38:41.980]  [SPEAKER_11]: But by all accounts, it seems like this will probably affect us even more than that Nabisco merger.
[38:42.320 --> 38:42.760]  [SPEAKER_30]: Right.
[38:43.040 --> 38:44.460]  [SPEAKER_30]: You know, Nabisco is food.
[38:44.660 --> 38:45.640]  [SPEAKER_30]: This is our lives.
[38:45.640 --> 38:48.720]  [SPEAKER_11]: And that certainly did affect most of us in some form or another.
[38:49.500 --> 38:57.840]  [SPEAKER_11]: But yeah, it's kind of the promise that we've been hearing now for quite some time, the marriage of technologies and ISDN and all that kind of thing.
[38:58.120 --> 39:03.080]  [SPEAKER_11]: It seems to be one step closer, but not necessarily one step better.
[39:03.480 --> 39:04.900]  [SPEAKER_11]: It could be frightening.
[39:04.900 --> 39:06.020]  [SPEAKER_11]: It could be done poorly.
[39:06.240 --> 39:10.840]  [SPEAKER_11]: It could be done in a monolithic way that will only make things worse for us.
[39:10.920 --> 39:13.340]  [SPEAKER_11]: So yeah, I have a great competition is the answer here.
[39:13.480 --> 39:17.340]  [SPEAKER_11]: Let's see if any of our callers have any details or information or opinions on this.
[39:17.600 --> 39:21.980]  [SPEAKER_11]: Our phone number tonight and every night, as always, is 212-279-3400.
[39:22.060 --> 39:23.540]  [SPEAKER_11]: The program is Off the Hook.
[39:23.700 --> 39:24.340]  [SPEAKER_11]: Let's see who's out there.
[39:24.820 --> 39:25.280]  [SPEAKER_11]: Good evening.
[39:25.860 --> 39:26.400]  [SPEAKER_13]: Hello, Emmanuel.
[39:26.520 --> 39:27.160]  [SPEAKER_13]: This is Jayhawk.
[39:27.400 --> 39:28.100]  [SPEAKER_11]: Hey, how are you?
[39:28.380 --> 39:28.580]  [SPEAKER_13]: Hello.
[39:28.700 --> 39:28.840]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay.
[39:29.200 --> 39:30.080]  [SPEAKER_13]: A couple comments.
[39:30.440 --> 39:31.140]  [SPEAKER_13]: A bunch of comments, actually.
[39:31.240 --> 39:32.980]  [SPEAKER_13]: First, a thumbs up on the Twin Peaks music.
[39:33.200 --> 39:34.520]  [SPEAKER_11]: Could you speak up a little bit?
[39:34.600 --> 39:35.140]  [SPEAKER_11]: You're fading away.
[39:35.280 --> 39:35.640]  [SPEAKER_13]: Oh, sorry.
[39:35.820 --> 39:37.520]  [SPEAKER_13]: First, a thumbs up on the Twin Peaks music.
[39:37.720 --> 39:38.000]  [SPEAKER_11]: Thank you.
[39:43.200 --> 39:44.220]  [SPEAKER_13]: Through Cable and
[39:53.760 --> 40:07.920]  [SPEAKER_13]: Performance Systems International, which is one of the biggest commercial Internet providers, struck a deal with a cable company in Massachusetts very recently.
[40:08.160 --> 40:08.420]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh-huh.
[40:08.660 --> 40:10.360]  [SPEAKER_11]: They're having a lot of things happening.
[40:10.740 --> 40:22.140]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, and they're going to be providing Internet through the cable network or through revising the cable network or of some sort, some deal with the cable company.
[40:22.320 --> 40:22.560]  [SPEAKER_33]: Right.
[40:23.060 --> 40:29.900]  [SPEAKER_13]: Bring it into your home without the necessity of dealing with an external provider as it's kind of hard today.
[40:30.400 --> 40:30.600]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh-huh.
[40:32.580 --> 40:34.360]  [SPEAKER_11]: Do you see that as a good thing or a bad thing?
[40:34.580 --> 40:36.060]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, you know, it's a good and a bad thing.
[40:36.360 --> 40:47.280]  [SPEAKER_13]: It reflects an evolution of the industry and an evolution of the Internet, and it's coming towards, you know, the common user, and that's good, but it also reflects, you know, big commercial ventures, which are bad.
[40:47.680 --> 40:48.940]  [SPEAKER_11]: I think Razor has a comment.
[40:49.600 --> 41:03.840]  [SPEAKER_30]: Yeah, what this is basically saying is that your local phone company, your local division of your Baby Bell, is no longer going to be involved in the process of selling lease lines to bring information services and Internet services to your house.
[41:03.940 --> 41:05.980]  [SPEAKER_30]: Currently, the way it works, PSI sells the service.
[41:06.960 --> 41:09.960]  [SPEAKER_30]: Here, New York Telephone sells the lease line to your house.
[41:10.280 --> 41:21.340]  [SPEAKER_30]: And so, basically, they can offer more economical rates through having their own cable going to your house, but they're going to have to lay a lot of cable because the Bell operating companies have built up such a huge infrastructure.
[41:21.780 --> 41:26.580]  [SPEAKER_30]: But I think this is definitely a good thing because we've got more competition than just our local phone companies.
[41:26.780 --> 41:31.920]  [SPEAKER_11]: That's the first step to get competition for the phone companies because that's the biggest monopoly right now.
[41:32.380 --> 41:37.460]  [SPEAKER_13]: The danger here is, of course, having companies like PSI turn into monopolies like the phone company.
[41:37.460 --> 41:42.660]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, I don't think the local phone companies are going to be going anywhere, and I don't think the local cable companies are going to be going anywhere.
[41:42.860 --> 41:48.300]  [SPEAKER_11]: So, you know, the entry of companies like PSI into this will certainly be advantageous.
[41:49.740 --> 41:53.840]  [SPEAKER_13]: Another little question was, when's the next 2600 issue coming out?
[41:53.940 --> 41:55.620]  [SPEAKER_11]: Oh, I'm glad you asked, actually, because I'm holding.
[41:56.920 --> 41:59.960]  [SPEAKER_11]: That's the sound of the next 2600 issue, which just came out.
[42:00.580 --> 42:01.700]  [SPEAKER_11]: In fact, it's in the mail.
[42:01.840 --> 42:06.300]  [SPEAKER_11]: If you're a subscriber, you probably have it in a day now, and it should be on the newsstands in a week or so.
[42:07.480 --> 42:08.680]  [SPEAKER_11]: But, yeah, the autumn issue.
[42:08.840 --> 42:11.160]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's a little bit late, but we finally got it out.
[42:11.860 --> 42:21.060]  [SPEAKER_11]: Articles on caller ID, various UNIX things, more high school hacking and book reviews, virus news, cellular.
[42:21.300 --> 42:22.240]  [SPEAKER_11]: You name it, it's in here.
[42:22.720 --> 42:24.380]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay, and two more things.
[42:24.500 --> 42:24.660]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[42:24.880 --> 42:27.900]  [SPEAKER_13]: One about Mother's Maiden name stuff for credit cards.
[42:28.080 --> 42:28.360]  [SPEAKER_17]: Yeah.
[42:28.620 --> 42:34.700]  [SPEAKER_13]: There was actually a discussion, I think it was in Risks, but wherever it was recently, like the past month or so, about this.
[42:34.700 --> 42:45.720]  [SPEAKER_13]: And a lot of people said that a lot of services will accept just about any passphrase, like a password, but more than one word or more than one contiguous sequence of characters.
[42:46.240 --> 42:49.160]  [SPEAKER_13]: And a lot of them will just accept, you know, a sentence or something.
[42:49.920 --> 42:58.060]  [SPEAKER_13]: And so, you know, just like any other password, you should make sure you use different passphrases for different credit cards and the like, and just make sure you don't forget them.
[42:58.060 --> 43:01.800]  [SPEAKER_11]: The only difference is that it's very hard to change your Mother's Maiden name.
[43:02.000 --> 43:06.800]  [SPEAKER_11]: You know, you're supposed to change passwords, but how do you call a credit card company and say, I want to change my Mother's Maiden name?
[43:07.020 --> 43:07.640]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, I don't know.
[43:07.720 --> 43:12.100]  [SPEAKER_13]: If you have something that's obviously not your Mother's Maiden name, they're a little more inclined to do that.
[43:12.340 --> 43:12.620]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[43:12.760 --> 43:19.440]  [SPEAKER_11]: I don't think the representatives there are programmed to take anything that they don't believe is a Mother's Maiden name, but it's always worth the effort.
[43:19.440 --> 43:27.120]  [SPEAKER_11]: Also, local phone companies and long-distance companies as well have services where they will attach a password to your account.
[43:28.320 --> 43:36.000]  [SPEAKER_11]: Unfortunately, they don't check to make sure that it's actually you attaching the password to the account, so you could, in effect, lock somebody out if you know what you're doing.
[43:36.380 --> 43:40.400]  [SPEAKER_13]: And that also sort of brings up the fact that you should change your calling card pins every once in a while.
[43:40.680 --> 43:41.520]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, it would be nice.
[43:41.680 --> 43:42.560]  [SPEAKER_11]: It would be nice to do that.
[43:42.640 --> 43:43.640]  [SPEAKER_13]: Most people probably don't.
[43:43.780 --> 43:45.320]  [SPEAKER_11]: And maybe even your credit card numbers.
[43:45.420 --> 43:48.860]  [SPEAKER_11]: It'll drive the whole industry crazy if everybody keeps doing this, but...
[43:48.860 --> 43:50.860]  [SPEAKER_13]: Card numbers often expire every once in a while.
[43:50.940 --> 43:52.660]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, they expire, but they don't change the numbers.
[43:52.720 --> 43:54.180]  [SPEAKER_11]: They just give you a new piece of plastic.
[43:54.700 --> 43:56.000]  [SPEAKER_13]: No, some of them might have changed.
[43:56.200 --> 43:57.120]  [SPEAKER_11]: Only if you lose them.
[43:57.860 --> 44:00.200]  [SPEAKER_11]: Only if you lose them or if they're compromised in some way.
[44:00.380 --> 44:00.580]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay.
[44:00.920 --> 44:06.040]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, it's rare they actually... I mean, maybe some companies do that, but not the ones I deal with.
[44:06.480 --> 44:07.280]  [SPEAKER_11]: I wish they would.
[44:07.660 --> 44:08.360]  [SPEAKER_11]: All right, thanks for calling.
[44:08.780 --> 44:09.800]  [SPEAKER_13]: One final little item.
[44:09.880 --> 44:10.320]  [SPEAKER_11]: Make it quick.
[44:10.680 --> 44:12.340]  [SPEAKER_13]: Oh, well, it's sort of... Well, okay.
[44:12.340 --> 44:12.340]  Okay.
[44:12.800 --> 44:20.040]  [SPEAKER_13]: You know, the NIC, the Internet, which runs the name-assigning and number-assigning parts of the Internet?
[44:20.240 --> 44:20.420]  [SPEAKER_11]: Right.
[44:20.620 --> 44:28.040]  [SPEAKER_13]: They sent out a piece of junk mail to me for the first time ever from, you know, they just recently became a contractor...
[44:28.040 --> 44:33.160]  [SPEAKER_13]: or they're recently contracted to General Atomics and some other... and AT&T and...
[44:33.160 --> 44:37.560]  [SPEAKER_13]: But they used to be run by the Defense Data Network and they used to be run by the Stanford Research Institute.
[44:37.940 --> 44:39.580]  [SPEAKER_13]: And all that time, they never sent me any junk mail.
[44:40.040 --> 44:43.180]  [SPEAKER_13]: I actually received junk paper mail earlier this week from them.
[44:43.300 --> 44:44.460]  [SPEAKER_11]: What kind of junk mail was it?
[44:44.660 --> 44:52.080]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's... they want me to come to some stupid network information center conference on how to run a network information center.
[44:52.200 --> 44:55.380]  [SPEAKER_13]: NIC Fest in San Diego for 89 bucks.
[44:55.760 --> 44:56.040]  [SPEAKER_17]: Uh-huh.
[44:56.040 --> 45:02.600]  [SPEAKER_13]: But it's kind of scary that, you know, the one item of mail I get from these people who do fairly important work, you know, they assign all the names and numbers to the Internet.
[45:03.340 --> 45:13.840]  [SPEAKER_13]: The one item of mail I get, you know, and I've been in their database for quite a while because, you know, whenever you register a host name or get a number, you get in their database with your name and your address and your phone numbers.
[45:14.400 --> 45:18.340]  [SPEAKER_13]: First thing of mail I've ever got from them is, you know, junk mail.
[45:18.860 --> 45:19.980]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, and it's paper, too.
[45:20.040 --> 45:20.900]  [SPEAKER_11]: That's interesting as well.
[45:21.080 --> 45:22.460]  [SPEAKER_13]: Oh, I got like five copies.
[45:22.700 --> 45:23.060]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah.
[45:26.040 --> 45:28.660]  [SPEAKER_11]: Interesting thought for the future, but, uh, well, thanks for sharing it with us.
[45:28.760 --> 45:30.380]  [SPEAKER_11]: Let's go on to, uh, our next call here.
[45:30.940 --> 45:31.520]  [SPEAKER_11]: Good evening.
[45:32.580 --> 45:32.940]  [SPEAKER_11]: Hello?
[45:33.180 --> 45:33.620]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yes, hi.
[45:33.940 --> 45:34.400]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, go ahead.
[45:34.520 --> 45:38.100]  [SPEAKER_08]: I had, uh, one quick question and then just, uh, also a brief story about credit cards.
[45:38.220 --> 45:48.460]  [SPEAKER_08]: One is, uh, you told a story about how someone's, uh, wallet was stolen and then someone, the person who stole it subsequently charged $8,000 on the credit cards from ATMs.
[45:48.460 --> 45:49.520]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, cash advances.
[45:50.000 --> 45:50.120]  [SPEAKER_08]: Right.
[45:50.540 --> 45:54.540]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, don't you have to have a PIN number in order to get cash advances on a credit card?
[45:54.680 --> 45:58.800]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yes, but it's very easy to get a PIN number if the company believes that they're dealing with the person.
[45:59.340 --> 46:00.600]  [SPEAKER_11]: All they have to do is ask for it.
[46:00.740 --> 46:09.500]  [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, so if, if, if you already had, if the actual owner of the credit card had a PIN number and the person who stole it, uh, wanted to find out, they could say they forgot it or something, you mean?
[46:09.860 --> 46:12.860]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, they, they could say they never had one to start with.
[46:18.460 --> 46:24.160]  [SPEAKER_11]: If you convince the company that it's actually, you know, you're the, the card holder, uh, they'll tell you anything, you know?
[46:24.280 --> 46:28.160]  [SPEAKER_11]: They'll, they'll send you all the bills, they'll send you new cards, additional cards.
[46:28.740 --> 46:29.020]  [SPEAKER_11]: I see.
[46:29.240 --> 46:30.900]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's, uh, it's, it's unlimited what they can do.
[46:30.900 --> 46:48.480]  [SPEAKER_08]: And how difficult is it for a person whose credit card is stolen to, once they've discovered that however much has been charged to their credit card fraudulently, how difficult is it for them to make the credit card company believe them and have those charges...
[46:50.180 --> 46:55.820]  [SPEAKER_11]: Surprisingly enough, it's more difficult to fix it, to stop it, than it is to actually start it.
[46:55.940 --> 47:00.440]  [SPEAKER_11]: It only takes one act of deceit to get somebody to believe that you're who you are.
[47:00.980 --> 47:14.180]  [SPEAKER_11]: But once something suspicious has happened, it takes a lot of convincing for them to actually believe that you're the right person to talk to, and it takes a while to get the charges erased, and to prevent negative credit from going to TRW, and all kinds of things like that.
[47:14.880 --> 47:28.780]  [SPEAKER_08]: I just recently moved, and I changed all two credit cards, student loan, and a number of other things over the phone, and they didn't ask me any questions except for my name, account number, and social security number.
[47:30.140 --> 47:34.000]  [SPEAKER_08]: So, from my experience, it's even easier than how you were describing.
[47:34.040 --> 47:34.880]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, it's very easy.
[47:35.000 --> 47:39.160]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's very easy, and that's one of the things that has to change with, you know, with credit cards.
[47:39.280 --> 47:46.280]  [SPEAKER_11]: The other thing that has to change is the ease with which, with just a credit card number, you can order vast amounts of merchandise.
[47:46.540 --> 47:49.120]  [SPEAKER_11]: I mean, you don't even have to have physical access to the card.
[47:49.200 --> 47:50.160]  [SPEAKER_11]: You just have to know the numbers.
[47:50.260 --> 47:51.160]  [SPEAKER_11]: You can guess the numbers.
[47:51.160 --> 47:52.860]  [SPEAKER_11]: There's all kinds of things you can do.
[47:52.940 --> 47:53.740]  [SPEAKER_11]: You can just see a list.
[47:53.840 --> 47:54.900]  [SPEAKER_11]: You can look over someone's shoulder.
[47:55.500 --> 47:59.500]  [SPEAKER_11]: And, of course, there's massive fraud, because it's a very insecure system.
[47:59.840 --> 48:00.660]  [SPEAKER_08]: Oh, thank you very much.
[48:00.820 --> 48:01.000]  [SPEAKER_11]: All right.
[48:01.080 --> 48:01.520]  [SPEAKER_11]: Thanks for calling.
[48:02.880 --> 48:05.180]  [SPEAKER_11]: 212-279-3400 is our phone number.
[48:05.260 --> 48:06.560]  [SPEAKER_11]: We have about 10 minutes left.
[48:06.700 --> 48:07.900]  [SPEAKER_11]: Let's see how many calls we can get in.
[48:08.000 --> 48:08.300]  [SPEAKER_11]: Good evening.
[48:08.860 --> 48:09.240]  [SPEAKER_22]: All right.
[48:09.340 --> 48:09.560]  [SPEAKER_22]: Hi.
[48:09.980 --> 48:10.520]  [SPEAKER_22]: I'm Manuel.
[48:10.760 --> 48:11.360]  [SPEAKER_22]: Great program.
[48:11.580 --> 48:11.640]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yes.
[48:11.640 --> 48:11.840]  [SPEAKER_11]: Thank you.
[48:12.060 --> 48:17.760]  [SPEAKER_22]: First thing on my mind, I just have to scold New York Telephone for this annoying timeout on the rings.
[48:17.760 --> 48:20.580]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, I guess we can spare a little time to scold New York Telephone.
[48:20.720 --> 48:21.520]  [SPEAKER_11]: We haven't done that yet today.
[48:21.860 --> 48:22.100]  [SPEAKER_22]: All right.
[48:22.220 --> 48:23.440]  [SPEAKER_22]: Shame on you, New York Tele.
[48:23.600 --> 48:24.200]  [SPEAKER_22]: Okay, that's done.
[48:24.420 --> 48:24.880]  [SPEAKER_22]: That's done.
[48:25.240 --> 48:25.560]  [SPEAKER_22]: Seriously.
[48:25.940 --> 48:27.260]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's not us doing that.
[48:27.340 --> 48:30.260]  [SPEAKER_11]: Everybody else out there that thinks we're cutting them off after 50 rings or whatever.
[48:30.360 --> 48:31.260]  [SPEAKER_11]: No, it's New York Telephone.
[48:31.400 --> 48:31.900]  [SPEAKER_11]: Oh, I know that.
[48:33.420 --> 48:35.980]  [SPEAKER_11]: People still blame us, though, even though we've said it so many times.
[48:36.500 --> 48:37.380]  [SPEAKER_22]: You don't have to tell me.
[48:37.420 --> 48:37.860]  [SPEAKER_22]: It's obvious.
[48:38.100 --> 48:38.600]  [SPEAKER_22]: I'm sorry.
[48:38.800 --> 48:38.940]  [SPEAKER_22]: Okay.
[48:39.300 --> 48:44.740]  [SPEAKER_22]: Listen, this whole thing with the sys-op, with these files on the board, something about munitions or something.
[48:44.920 --> 48:45.960]  [SPEAKER_11]: Right, the Connecticut case.
[48:45.960 --> 48:46.300]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[48:46.640 --> 48:52.020]  [SPEAKER_22]: Now, listen, first off, when did it become illegal to publish material on making munitions?
[48:52.300 --> 48:53.740]  [SPEAKER_22]: You can go into the library and get that.
[48:53.840 --> 48:54.360]  [SPEAKER_11]: Absolutely.
[48:54.360 --> 48:55.080]  [SPEAKER_11]: You can get that.
[48:55.200 --> 49:01.000]  [SPEAKER_11]: You can get all kinds of information on anarchy, on making nuclear bombs, making regular bombs.
[49:01.500 --> 49:05.040]  [SPEAKER_11]: However, when you attach it to a computer, somehow it becomes a weapon in itself.
[49:05.580 --> 49:12.220]  [SPEAKER_11]: And I think, you know, these prosecutors, they're relying on the ignorance of people in charge.
[49:12.680 --> 49:15.600]  [SPEAKER_11]: People think that with this computer, they can actually do damage.
[49:15.760 --> 49:17.000]  [SPEAKER_11]: And it's not the case at all.
[49:17.540 --> 49:19.440]  [SPEAKER_22]: Yeah, like the computer's going to go out and blow something up.
[49:19.520 --> 49:19.660]  [SPEAKER_11]: Right.
[49:19.700 --> 49:21.700]  [SPEAKER_11]: But the thing is, we know this.
[49:21.880 --> 49:26.000]  [SPEAKER_11]: People who have never experienced what a computer can do have no idea.
[49:26.200 --> 49:28.520]  [SPEAKER_11]: They have no idea what the relationship is.
[49:28.820 --> 49:33.640]  [SPEAKER_11]: They don't see it as the same thing as, say, printing a newspaper or a book or something like that.
[49:33.640 --> 49:38.300]  [SPEAKER_11]: But they hear computer, they hear computer hackers, and right away, it's, you know, it's D-Day.
[49:38.740 --> 49:39.880]  [SPEAKER_11]: And they have to do something.
[49:40.120 --> 49:43.120]  [SPEAKER_22]: But how can the CISA possibly be held accountable?
[49:43.280 --> 49:44.520]  [SPEAKER_22]: I mean, it's not even contraband information.
[49:45.140 --> 49:47.020]  [SPEAKER_22]: And how can the CISA be held accountable?
[49:47.460 --> 50:03.440]  [SPEAKER_22]: I mean, what we should do, I mean, not you and me necessarily, but some listeners there who haven't announced themselves, should just take, like, I don't know, some contraband drugs or something and ship them to all of the prosecutors' homes and then try to bust them for possession of narcotics.
[50:04.120 --> 50:06.480]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, it's an interesting approach there.
[50:08.040 --> 50:13.560]  [SPEAKER_11]: I mean, you know, something physical like that obviously is a lot more easy to deal with.
[50:13.660 --> 50:14.900]  [SPEAKER_11]: We're talking about words.
[50:14.980 --> 50:16.200]  [SPEAKER_11]: We're talking about words on a computer.
[50:16.620 --> 50:18.500]  [SPEAKER_11]: You know, bits and bytes, that kind of thing.
[50:19.340 --> 50:20.900]  [SPEAKER_11]: Not even a computer program.
[50:21.020 --> 50:22.500]  [SPEAKER_11]: Not even something that's going to do anything.
[50:22.640 --> 50:23.500]  [SPEAKER_11]: Just words.
[50:23.800 --> 50:24.480]  [SPEAKER_11]: And you're right.
[50:24.580 --> 50:26.140]  [SPEAKER_11]: Since when did words become illegal?
[50:26.480 --> 50:27.900]  [SPEAKER_11]: As far as I know, they haven't.
[50:28.120 --> 50:35.680]  [SPEAKER_11]: But when they're coupled with high technology, with computers, with things like that, you know, imaginations can run wild.
[50:35.720 --> 50:39.120]  [SPEAKER_11]: And if those are powerful imaginations running wild, then people will suffer.
[50:40.020 --> 50:42.180]  [SPEAKER_11]: We're going to try and follow this story up as best we can.
[50:42.200 --> 50:46.100]  [SPEAKER_11]: I've been trying to track down somebody with regards to this that will talk to us.
[50:46.540 --> 50:48.480]  [SPEAKER_11]: Hopefully, in the next couple of weeks, we'll be able to do that.
[50:48.500 --> 50:51.960]  [SPEAKER_11]: And update people on what's happening, specifically what the facts are.
[50:52.080 --> 50:56.100]  [SPEAKER_22]: Hopefully, you can contact someone to speak on the program who actually has influence on the trial.
[50:56.400 --> 50:57.240]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, it would be nice.
[50:57.400 --> 50:59.360]  [SPEAKER_11]: It would be nice to actually have some influence someplace.
[50:59.720 --> 51:06.020]  [SPEAKER_11]: But the thing is, listeners to WBAI do have influence.
[51:07.020 --> 51:09.860]  [SPEAKER_11]: Lots of times, what we say makes a difference.
[51:10.220 --> 51:16.620]  [SPEAKER_11]: To give an example, a couple of weeks ago, we talked about the tax on information providers.
[51:16.620 --> 51:16.900]  [SPEAKER_11]: Right.
[51:17.640 --> 51:18.880]  [SPEAKER_11]: Which was very unfair.
[51:19.200 --> 51:22.640]  [SPEAKER_11]: A lot of people have called up the New York State Tax Bureau about this.
[51:22.780 --> 51:24.300]  [SPEAKER_11]: And they are rethinking the policy.
[51:24.460 --> 51:29.060]  [SPEAKER_11]: In fact, some people, some very powerful people have said, this is a big mistake, we have to redo this.
[51:29.760 --> 51:33.020]  [SPEAKER_11]: And it comes from people calling up, people making a fuss.
[51:33.240 --> 51:36.980]  [SPEAKER_11]: And it goes for the phone company, it goes for law enforcement, it goes for everything.
[51:37.760 --> 51:37.860]  [SPEAKER_17]: Yeah.
[51:37.860 --> 51:40.360]  [SPEAKER_11]: So if you don't say anything, yeah, horrible things are going to happen.
[51:40.520 --> 51:42.940]  [SPEAKER_11]: If you make a fuss, somebody will listen.
[51:43.940 --> 51:50.000]  [SPEAKER_22]: Yeah, the thing is, though, what I was saying, though, it is very analogous to the thing with, like, say, a courier, for example.
[51:50.220 --> 51:53.400]  [SPEAKER_22]: You're given a brown paper bag, and you're instructed to deliver it.
[51:53.700 --> 51:54.320]  [SPEAKER_22]: You know what I mean?
[51:54.720 --> 51:55.060]  [SPEAKER_17]: Uh-huh.
[51:55.160 --> 51:55.760]  [SPEAKER_22]: That sort of thing.
[51:55.860 --> 52:00.140]  [SPEAKER_22]: I mean, it's analogous to that, but it's more like, you know, the thing with having a delivery to your house.
[52:00.480 --> 52:01.160]  [SPEAKER_22]: You're not there.
[52:01.320 --> 52:02.420]  [SPEAKER_22]: You don't know what's delivered.
[52:02.860 --> 52:03.720]  [SPEAKER_22]: It's in your mailbox.
[52:03.720 --> 52:07.080]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, but, you know, I don't like the analogy, because we're not talking about anything physical.
[52:07.080 --> 52:08.100]  [SPEAKER_11]: We're talking about words.
[52:08.240 --> 52:09.280]  [SPEAKER_11]: We're talking about ideas.
[52:09.560 --> 52:11.360]  [SPEAKER_11]: You know, and we can't really compare that.
[52:11.560 --> 52:15.620]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, you can deliver things that are illegal in brown paper bags.
[52:15.620 --> 52:18.680]  [SPEAKER_11]: You can certainly do that, but can you say something that's illegal?
[52:19.260 --> 52:22.260]  [SPEAKER_22]: Well, what I'm saying is that it's like a nested problem.
[52:22.720 --> 52:22.900]  [SPEAKER_17]: Uh-huh.
[52:22.980 --> 52:32.600]  [SPEAKER_22]: Not only is it ridiculous to declare the information illegal, but now you're going to compound it and saying that not only is the information illegal, but it's illegal to unknowingly acquire it.
[52:33.060 --> 52:34.280]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, that's true.
[52:34.700 --> 52:42.140]  [SPEAKER_11]: And, you know, you can't really hold the system operator responsible for acquiring it because a bulletin board... Yeah, a bulletin board is a community of people.
[52:42.400 --> 52:46.320]  [SPEAKER_11]: It's the entire community that is taking part in this conversation.
[52:46.480 --> 52:52.960]  [SPEAKER_11]: If somebody puts something up there that's for the community, it's not just for the system operator, you know, it's... I know what you're saying.
[52:52.980 --> 52:54.100]  [SPEAKER_22]: I used to run a system myself.
[52:54.340 --> 52:57.260]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, it's a bizarre mess that we're getting into.
[52:57.260 --> 53:02.200]  [SPEAKER_22]: Yeah, like every day or so... like, you know, every day, every couple days, I do a little housekeeping.
[53:02.800 --> 53:05.620]  [SPEAKER_22]: But even at that schedule, I mean, I was going out of my way to do that.
[53:06.280 --> 53:08.140]  [SPEAKER_22]: That's, you know, you really don't need to do it that often.
[53:08.480 --> 53:08.680]  [SPEAKER_17]: Yeah.
[53:09.340 --> 53:12.560]  [SPEAKER_22]: And even in the meantime, during those 24 hours, file comes on, you know?
[53:13.440 --> 53:14.740]  [SPEAKER_22]: You can't be there every minute.
[53:15.160 --> 53:16.000]  [SPEAKER_11]: That's certainly true.
[53:16.140 --> 53:16.840]  [SPEAKER_11]: That's certainly true.
[53:17.040 --> 53:26.140]  [SPEAKER_11]: And in this particular case, it would seem that the file passed what I would consider to be the criterion to keep it on the system.
[53:26.140 --> 53:34.000]  [SPEAKER_11]: In other words, it didn't give specific information, didn't give credit card numbers or calling cards or anything like that that could be used in a fraudulent manner.
[53:34.580 --> 53:37.280]  [SPEAKER_11]: It simply talked about techniques and things like that.
[53:37.520 --> 53:37.720]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[53:37.820 --> 53:39.280]  [SPEAKER_11]: So that's totally different in my view.
[53:39.680 --> 53:44.640]  [SPEAKER_22]: And I want one analogy on that, especially with this field, considering the munitions and whatnot.
[53:44.900 --> 53:46.440]  [SPEAKER_22]: There's a perfect example of that.
[53:46.620 --> 53:49.380]  [SPEAKER_22]: You go to your encyclopedia Americana, not even Britannica.
[53:49.440 --> 53:51.760]  [SPEAKER_22]: You go to Americana, look up on the nitrogen.
[53:52.260 --> 53:53.220]  [SPEAKER_22]: Look in the section.
[53:53.380 --> 53:55.620]  [SPEAKER_22]: You get an exact procedure for making nitroglycerin.
[53:56.140 --> 53:56.700]  [SPEAKER_22]: It's right there.
[53:56.920 --> 53:59.280]  [SPEAKER_22]: And, you know, that's illegal, and that makes perfect sense.
[53:59.400 --> 54:02.380]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, thanks for alerting us to this alarming turn of events.
[54:02.500 --> 54:03.440]  [SPEAKER_11]: We'll have to do something about that.
[54:03.560 --> 54:04.840]  [SPEAKER_22]: On a computer, suddenly it's illegal.
[54:05.020 --> 54:05.200]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[54:05.360 --> 54:05.560]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay.
[54:05.560 --> 54:06.520]  [SPEAKER_11]: Thanks very much for calling.
[54:06.720 --> 54:06.880]  [SPEAKER_22]: Okay.
[54:06.940 --> 54:07.180]  [SPEAKER_22]: Thank you.
[54:07.240 --> 54:07.440]  [SPEAKER_22]: Bye-bye.
[54:07.620 --> 54:07.920]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay.
[54:08.180 --> 54:09.160]  [SPEAKER_11]: Let's take another phone call.
[54:09.300 --> 54:09.620]  [SPEAKER_11]: Good evening.
[54:09.940 --> 54:10.100]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[54:10.160 --> 54:10.320]  [SPEAKER_07]: Hello?
[54:10.520 --> 54:10.820]  [SPEAKER_11]: How are you doing?
[54:11.020 --> 54:11.960]  [SPEAKER_07]: This is WBII.
[54:12.020 --> 54:12.680]  [SPEAKER_11]: You're on the air.
[54:13.000 --> 54:13.140]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[54:13.220 --> 54:13.440]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.
[54:14.760 --> 54:23.160]  [SPEAKER_07]: Last week in the New York Times, there was an on-page Wednesday, New York Telephone put in an announcement.
[54:23.160 --> 54:23.740]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[54:24.320 --> 54:31.380]  [SPEAKER_07]: A legal notice about a proposal for a new feature, anonymous call rejection for phone smart service.
[54:32.300 --> 54:32.880]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay.
[54:33.220 --> 54:45.520]  [SPEAKER_07]: Now, they want to charge you for redirecting an incoming call with an activated number restriction feature to an announcement that the called party is not accepting such calls.
[54:47.500 --> 54:54.440]  [SPEAKER_07]: Calling parties will be billed for appropriate tariff uses rates for intercepted calls.
[54:54.840 --> 54:59.680]  [SPEAKER_07]: To me, this is like being charged for an unanswered phone call.
[54:59.880 --> 55:01.320]  [SPEAKER_11]: Calling parties will be billed?
[55:01.400 --> 55:02.500]  [SPEAKER_11]: That is different.
[55:02.980 --> 55:03.380]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[55:03.780 --> 55:05.040]  [SPEAKER_11]: I'd never heard of that before.
[55:05.180 --> 55:05.640]  [SPEAKER_11]: I know that...
[55:05.640 --> 55:11.080]  [SPEAKER_07]: On page C14, Wednesday, October 6th in the New York Times.
[55:11.080 --> 55:11.580]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay.
[55:11.660 --> 55:12.540]  [SPEAKER_11]: I'll look into that.
[55:12.680 --> 55:28.180]  [SPEAKER_11]: But in other states that have had this feature, basically, people that elect not to get anonymous phone calls or, you know, phone calls that we used to get all the time, the people that make those calls will get a recording saying the person you're calling doesn't accept anonymous calls.
[55:28.520 --> 55:28.800]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[55:28.840 --> 55:33.900]  [SPEAKER_11]: I've never heard of a charge for that recording because it's already upsetting enough to have you call blocked like that.
[55:34.280 --> 55:47.480]  [SPEAKER_11]: And also, this doesn't address the issue that we've all been talking about here on the program concerning blocking of call return, which allows anybody to call you back, whether you block or not.
[55:48.120 --> 55:51.260]  [SPEAKER_11]: And, yeah, they won't get your number, but maybe they will because they're calling you.
[55:51.320 --> 55:53.980]  [SPEAKER_11]: What if they get your answering machine and your answering machine says your number on it?
[55:54.300 --> 55:56.960]  [SPEAKER_11]: You know, there's all kinds of possibilities, all kinds of ways of getting a number.
[55:57.140 --> 56:00.860]  [SPEAKER_07]: This is the punchline, that they'll bill you for intercepted calls.
[56:01.000 --> 56:02.720]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, that's completely crazy.
[56:02.960 --> 56:05.320]  [SPEAKER_07]: And it's supposed to take effect on October 22nd.
[56:05.320 --> 56:09.140]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, that's coming up, but I have heard nothing about this.
[56:09.360 --> 56:13.420]  [SPEAKER_07]: I already wrote a letter to the PSC and a copy to the Attorney General.
[56:13.520 --> 56:13.780]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh-huh.
[56:14.280 --> 56:14.520]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay.
[56:14.640 --> 56:15.840]  [SPEAKER_07]: I'll be able to do something about it.
[56:15.860 --> 56:18.420]  [SPEAKER_11]: Let us know what you hear, because this does sound important.
[56:18.520 --> 56:19.560]  [SPEAKER_11]: I wasn't aware of this.
[56:19.660 --> 56:20.220]  [SPEAKER_11]: I'll look into it.
[56:20.400 --> 56:22.940]  [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, when I saw this, I said, I've got to call off the hook.
[56:23.040 --> 56:24.280]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, I'm glad you got through.
[56:24.800 --> 56:26.580]  [SPEAKER_07]: After three times getting cut off.
[56:26.740 --> 56:27.300]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, I know.
[56:27.380 --> 56:28.380]  [SPEAKER_11]: They make it difficult, don't they?
[56:28.640 --> 56:30.920]  [SPEAKER_07]: I know, but I finally got through.
[56:31.500 --> 56:32.020]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh-huh.
[56:32.020 --> 56:34.440]  [SPEAKER_07]: That's why I wanted to bring this to your attention.
[56:34.440 --> 56:36.480]  [SPEAKER_07]: I figured that people should know about this.
[56:37.260 --> 56:41.060]  [SPEAKER_07]: This is billing you for, uh, like, uh, an unanswered phone call.
[56:41.260 --> 56:41.840]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, well...
[56:41.840 --> 56:45.600]  [SPEAKER_07]: And if you got your answering machine, you could at least leave a message on your answering machine.
[56:45.680 --> 56:47.200]  [SPEAKER_11]: See, they'll figure out how to do that soon, too.
[56:47.300 --> 56:49.780]  [SPEAKER_11]: They'll figure out how to bill you for air time, even though there's no air involved.
[56:50.180 --> 56:51.300]  [SPEAKER_11]: Listen, sir, thanks for the call.
[56:51.460 --> 56:51.600]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay.
[56:51.840 --> 56:52.140]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay.
[56:52.600 --> 56:57.920]  [SPEAKER_11]: And, uh, speaking of call return, we did a little experiment last week, and we promised you the results of that experiment.
[56:58.280 --> 56:59.260]  [SPEAKER_11]: And here they are.
[56:59.420 --> 57:11.740]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, we asked people to call up a particular number, uh, especially from New Jersey and Connecticut, and, um, and see if, uh, their phone number would show up on a caller ID device that we had installed on a special line.
[57:12.180 --> 57:14.020]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, we got a number of phone calls.
[57:14.180 --> 57:23.000]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, we weren't able to capture all of them because, uh, fortunately there was a call waiting on the line, so, uh, occasionally some calls would just go on to call waiting and wouldn't be captured by the caller ID box.
[57:23.000 --> 57:32.700]  [SPEAKER_11]: But the ones that were, uh, we had about 30 of them in a, in a 10-minute period, uh, we did not get a single phone number, but we did get several numbers that said they were private numbers.
[57:32.860 --> 57:37.500]  [SPEAKER_11]: In other words, numbers that were either blocked by the caller or blocked automatically.
[57:37.660 --> 57:51.260]  [SPEAKER_11]: Now, what this could mean is that calls from New Jersey and Connecticut are going through, the data is being transmitted, but the data is being blocked, and, uh, the private number data message is being sent instead of, uh, out of area.
[57:51.720 --> 57:58.380]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, so, that could easily mean that, uh, we're on the verge of interstate, uh, caller ID.
[57:58.800 --> 58:04.300]  [SPEAKER_11]: As we mentioned last week, uh, we received a call from Virginia that showed up on a caller ID box.
[58:04.540 --> 58:06.660]  [SPEAKER_11]: 703 area code made it all the way up to New York.
[58:07.160 --> 58:09.260]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh, we did some research into the exchange.
[58:09.260 --> 58:18.720]  [SPEAKER_11]: We found out that it's, uh, the exchange of the Meter Corporation, which is a big, uh, Internet, uh, site, and, uh, all kinds of, uh, military contracting goes on there.
[58:18.720 --> 58:21.680]  [SPEAKER_11]: So, we're looking to, uh, do some experiments with that.
[58:21.820 --> 58:23.160]  [SPEAKER_11]: We're looking to figure out some more things.
[58:23.860 --> 58:28.680]  [SPEAKER_11]: Um, for now, it appears that it's available on a limited basis.
[58:29.100 --> 58:30.960]  [SPEAKER_11]: Um, but it is getting there.
[58:31.260 --> 58:38.140]  [SPEAKER_11]: And the way to figure out if it is there is to try many different possibilities, many different ways of making phone calls.
[58:38.300 --> 58:47.680]  [SPEAKER_11]: We did some experiments from Virginia, uh, using AT&T, using MCI, using Sprint to see if the data might be passed on a certain long distance company.
[58:47.960 --> 58:49.500]  [SPEAKER_11]: We were not able to get it to duplicate.
[58:49.500 --> 58:52.040]  [SPEAKER_11]: However, we weren't able to call from that particular exchange.
[58:52.040 --> 58:53.900]  [SPEAKER_11]: That's the, uh, the next step.
[58:54.020 --> 58:56.200]  [SPEAKER_11]: That's what we're going to try to do, uh, in the weeks ahead.
[58:56.200 --> 59:01.980]  [SPEAKER_11]: So, if anybody has any information on caller ID that, uh, they feel we've missed, please give us a call.
[59:02.080 --> 59:03.020]  [SPEAKER_11]: Let us know what it is.
[59:03.140 --> 59:04.040]  [SPEAKER_11]: Do experiments.
[59:04.420 --> 59:13.020]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, sometimes it involves subscribing to the rip-off services that the phone company provides, but the advantage is that you learn what they're up to before it becomes reality.
[59:17.920 --> 59:20.740]  [SPEAKER_11]: And I guess that's, uh, that's about all the time we have for today.
[59:22.400 --> 59:23.940]  [SPEAKER_11]: Boy, the time goes fast, doesn't it?
[59:24.500 --> 59:27.200]  [SPEAKER_11]: We'll be back again next week with another edition of Off the Hook.
[59:27.520 --> 59:29.100]  [SPEAKER_11]: Until then, this is Emmanuel Goldstein.
[59:29.720 --> 59:33.480]  [SPEAKER_11]: Take care, stay awake, play with your phones and computers, and read the papers.
[59:33.660 --> 59:34.500]  [SPEAKER_11]: Stay tuned for the news.
[59:34.780 --> 59:35.000]  [SPEAKER_11]: Good night.