Off The Hook - 1993-11-17

[00:02.760 --> 00:18.360]  [SPEAKER_21]: On our workers' wages and on our negotiations, and finally and most importantly, the promise of NAFTA, the potential of NAFTA, is that we will have a market in which to sell our products.
[00:18.800 --> 00:20.620]  [SPEAKER_21]: Henry Ford had it right.
[00:20.880 --> 00:27.500]  [SPEAKER_21]: If you don't pay the workers a decent wage, they can't buy the cars that they're making.
[00:27.500 --> 00:30.960]  [SPEAKER_21]: We've got to get Mexican wages to go up.
[00:40.380 --> 00:44.320]  [SPEAKER_21]: This agreement tells Mexico that change is not necessary.
[00:44.580 --> 00:47.140]  [SPEAKER_21]: It ratifies a system that's in place.
[00:47.540 --> 00:56.640]  [SPEAKER_21]: But when we negotiated this agreement, our business people rightly went to our negotiators and said, we must have protection of our investment.
[00:56.940 --> 01:00.360]  [SPEAKER_21]: We must have protection of our intellectual property.
[01:00.560 --> 01:02.460]  [SPEAKER_21]: And they were right to ask for that.
[01:02.620 --> 01:12.240]  [SPEAKER_21]: But when we went and said we must also have protection for the rights of their workers and ours, there was not an answer of assent.
[01:12.400 --> 01:20.040]  [SPEAKER_21]: We must not approve a treaty that only protects the rights of business, but does not protect the rights of workers.
[01:28.340 --> 01:32.100]  [SPEAKER_24]: You're listening to live coverage of the NAFTA debate on WBAI New York.
[01:32.280 --> 01:34.720]  [SPEAKER_24]: We will resume our normal programming after the vote.
[01:34.720 --> 01:36.840]  [SPEAKER_21]: Our defect is to do with money.
[01:37.360 --> 01:43.280]  [SPEAKER_21]: All of us know the problems that have been created at the border, and many of them are our fault.
[01:43.620 --> 01:57.480]  [SPEAKER_21]: We set up a Maquiladora program 30 years ago, and millions of workers were drawn to that border to work, and never was the right infrastructure put in place to support all of those people.
[01:57.480 --> 02:03.940]  [SPEAKER_21]: The sewer systems, the water systems, and the road systems that should have been there, have never been there.
[02:04.080 --> 02:15.100]  [SPEAKER_21]: And I submit to you tonight that this treaty is insufficient on providing the monies that will be needed over 20 and 30 years to put those very needed things in place.
[02:15.260 --> 02:21.960]  [SPEAKER_21]: I don't want to go to that border five and ten years from now and find conditions are worse and not better.
[02:21.960 --> 02:28.520]  [SPEAKER_21]: And when will we finally stop lying to ourselves and creating myths and illusions?
[02:28.900 --> 02:32.540]  [SPEAKER_21]: If you want to bill things, you have to pay for it.
[02:32.800 --> 02:35.220]  [SPEAKER_21]: This treaty doesn't pay for it.
[02:35.220 --> 02:36.800]  [SPEAKER_21]: It doesn't make it happen.
[02:37.220 --> 02:38.660]  [SPEAKER_21]: And one more moment.
[02:39.100 --> 02:43.740]  [SPEAKER_21]: I said two and a half years ago, let's have a cross-border transaction fee.
[02:43.960 --> 02:45.220]  [SPEAKER_21]: Why did I say that?
[02:45.460 --> 02:50.260]  [SPEAKER_21]: Not because it's popular, but because the money's got to come from somewhere.
[02:50.260 --> 02:57.980]  [SPEAKER_21]: And I believe it should come from the people who are most benefiting from the trade between the countries.
[02:58.200 --> 03:03.980]  [SPEAKER_21]: Let's have a fee that pays for the things that we believe are important to do.
[03:04.540 --> 03:13.740]  [SPEAKER_21]: Now, let me say that many say that we are at a fork in the road.
[03:14.400 --> 03:19.760]  [SPEAKER_21]: The proponents say that we will go down the right road or the wrong road.
[03:20.560 --> 03:30.400]  [SPEAKER_21]: Well, I agree that we're at a fork in the road, but I think the right road is to follow the kind of agreement that leads to the new world of commerce and trade that we're in.
[03:30.560 --> 03:33.040]  [SPEAKER_21]: The issue is no longer whether to trade.
[03:33.460 --> 03:34.840]  [SPEAKER_21]: It's how to trade.
[03:34.980 --> 03:36.740]  [SPEAKER_21]: It's what are the rules of engagement.
[03:37.060 --> 03:41.960]  [SPEAKER_21]: The old issue between protectionism and free trade is over.
[03:41.960 --> 03:43.640]  [SPEAKER_21]: It's history.
[03:44.100 --> 03:53.680]  [SPEAKER_21]: The argument over the rules of fair trade and how to get our workers and businesses on a level playing field is the debate of the present and the future.
[03:53.680 --> 04:08.600]  [SPEAKER_21]: Our goal must be over time to achieve compatibility, compatibility between all countries that are trading, just as we have compatibility between all of the states of the United States.
[04:09.240 --> 04:15.640]  [SPEAKER_21]: This debate started before the Cold War ended and before the wall fell in Berlin.
[04:16.180 --> 04:23.720]  [SPEAKER_21]: And in most of the Cold War period, our standard of living was rising and we were locked in a battle with communism.
[04:23.720 --> 04:26.860]  [SPEAKER_21]: We didn't care too much about trade treaties.
[04:27.160 --> 04:35.240]  [SPEAKER_21]: We've never had a debate on this floor that I can remember about a trade treaty like this because we just assumed economic growth.
[04:35.500 --> 04:41.520]  [SPEAKER_21]: And we always put trade treaties to be subservient to defense our foreign policy.
[04:41.520 --> 04:44.120]  [SPEAKER_21]: It just wasn't that important.
[04:44.120 --> 04:52.320]  [SPEAKER_21]: Ladies and gentlemen, this NAFTA tonight is the last of the old world trade treaties.
[04:53.420 --> 04:59.140]  [SPEAKER_21]: Americans now realize that our standard of living has been declining for over 15 years.
[04:59.400 --> 05:05.680]  [SPEAKER_21]: They realize that our most important national goal must be a rising standard of living.
[05:06.220 --> 05:15.360]  [SPEAKER_21]: Proponents of this NAFTA represent the past, represent the status quo, and fear of real change.
[05:15.700 --> 05:23.920]  [SPEAKER_21]: And they must understand that this country's greatness was not built on cheap labor.
[05:37.000 --> 05:44.800]  [SPEAKER_21]: I ask you tonight, I ask you tonight to remember for whom you stand tonight.
[05:45.620 --> 05:49.220]  [SPEAKER_21]: On whose behalf do we ask for this fairness?
[05:49.920 --> 06:07.260]  [SPEAKER_21]: Over many days in the last three years I've stood in villages in Mexico, and I've had Mexican workers come up to me and say, Will you, Mr. Congressman, insist on a NAFTA that fights for fair wages for our hard, productive work?
[06:07.400 --> 06:21.280]  [SPEAKER_21]: Mr. Congressman, will you insist on a NAFTA that really provides monies for sewer systems, and water systems and roads so that we can raise our families in dignity and security and safety?
[06:21.560 --> 06:36.720]  [SPEAKER_21]: And I've met countless United States workers who've said, Mr. Congressman, will you insist on a NAFTA that gets me on a level playing field and that will have real funding for training programs if perchance I lose my job?
[06:36.720 --> 06:43.840]  [SPEAKER_21]: I have not met one person who shrinks from the competition of fair trade.
[06:44.060 --> 06:45.960]  [SPEAKER_21]: Our workers are not afraid.
[06:46.260 --> 06:48.820]  [SPEAKER_21]: Mexican workers are not afraid.
[06:48.820 --> 06:56.220]  [SPEAKER_21]: But I've met lots of people who have very high expectations of us.
[06:56.700 --> 07:02.880]  [SPEAKER_21]: They expect us to be a force for genuine progress.
[07:02.880 --> 07:11.340]  [SPEAKER_21]: They expect us to be a force for a NAFTA that will increase wages in all three countries.
[07:11.920 --> 07:15.380]  [SPEAKER_21]: This NAFTA doesn't meet those expectations.
[07:15.860 --> 07:18.720]  [SPEAKER_21]: We can and we must do better.
[07:19.140 --> 07:27.480]  [SPEAKER_21]: As you vote tonight, as you put your card into the machine, put yourselves in the shoes of the people you represent.
[07:27.480 --> 07:29.260]  [SPEAKER_21]: Think of them.
[07:29.660 --> 07:31.280]  [SPEAKER_21]: Think of their hopes.
[07:31.540 --> 07:33.020]  [SPEAKER_21]: Think of their dreams.
[07:33.480 --> 07:34.920]  [SPEAKER_21]: Think of their families.
[07:36.160 --> 07:49.200]  [SPEAKER_21]: Think of Anna Mingus, who worked for Zenith in Springfield, Missouri, who along with her co-workers froze their wages over eight years so they could keep their job.
[07:49.200 --> 07:59.400]  [SPEAKER_21]: They, in 1989, cut their wages by eight percent so that she was making seven dollars an hour to keep their jobs.
[07:59.720 --> 08:13.020]  [SPEAKER_21]: Who then saw their plant go from four thousand jobs to a thousand jobs to a hundred jobs tonight as they do the work to finally close the plant that's gone to Mexico.
[08:13.020 --> 08:24.360]  [SPEAKER_21]: Think of Anita Mingus, who believes her co-worker husband died of a heart attack because of the stress of losing his job.
[08:25.100 --> 08:27.700]  [SPEAKER_21]: I talked to her on the phone this morning.
[08:28.120 --> 08:31.280]  [SPEAKER_21]: She said she's going to school to be a printer.
[08:31.980 --> 08:37.820]  [SPEAKER_21]: She's supporting herself and her thirteen-year-old son with a part-time minimum wage job.
[08:37.820 --> 08:42.480]  [SPEAKER_21]: She said she's not afraid, and she's not bitter.
[08:43.000 --> 08:48.620]  [SPEAKER_21]: She knows we've got to compete, and she's optimistic about her future.
[08:49.060 --> 08:52.720]  [SPEAKER_21]: But she said, I'm a survivor, Mr. Gephardt.
[08:52.900 --> 08:56.880]  [SPEAKER_21]: The Lord always takes care of me.
[08:57.440 --> 09:05.440]  [SPEAKER_21]: And then she said, but tonight, Mr. Gephardt, I'm counting on you.
[09:07.440 --> 09:17.580]  [SPEAKER_21]: When you vote tonight, think of Anita Mingus and the millions like her who count on us and only have us to count on.
[09:18.120 --> 09:25.780]  [SPEAKER_21]: She believes we can renegotiate this agreement, and she believes we can get a better agreement.
[09:25.780 --> 09:29.040]  [SPEAKER_21]: Say no to this NAFTA.
[09:29.380 --> 09:33.120]  [SPEAKER_21]: Say yes to Anita Mingus and millions like her.
[09:33.520 --> 09:36.620]  [SPEAKER_21]: Let us live up to her expectations.
[09:37.120 --> 09:41.140]  [SPEAKER_21]: Say yes tonight to a better NAFTA.
[09:44.760 --> 09:55.380]  [SPEAKER_12]: House Majority Leader Dick Gephardt, Democrat from Missouri, urging his colleagues to say no to NAFTA.
[10:19.840 --> 10:21.120]  [SPEAKER_00]: The gentleman from Illinois.
[10:21.340 --> 10:27.200]  [SPEAKER_00]: Mr. Chairman, I yield the balance of our time to the Speaker of the House of Representatives, Representative Fulton.
[10:34.570 --> 10:37.050]  [SPEAKER_12]: And the discussion on NAFTA continues.
[10:37.220 --> 10:39.830]  [SPEAKER_15]: The gentleman from Washington, the distinguished Speaker.
[10:41.380 --> 10:45.950]  [SPEAKER_25]: Mr. Speaker, this has been a long debate.
[10:47.170 --> 10:54.080]  [SPEAKER_25]: Not only a long debate today, but a long debate over recent weeks and months.
[10:55.240 --> 10:57.900]  [SPEAKER_25]: And it has been a difficult debate.
[10:58.760 --> 11:02.700]  [SPEAKER_25]: Difficult in so many ways for so many of us.
[11:02.700 --> 11:06.140]  [SPEAKER_25]: We find our parties divided.
[11:07.220 --> 11:09.280]  [SPEAKER_25]: Not one against the other.
[11:09.700 --> 11:11.620]  [SPEAKER_25]: But internally divided.
[11:12.580 --> 11:14.420]  [SPEAKER_25]: Our leadership's divided.
[11:14.820 --> 11:16.200]  [SPEAKER_25]: Our members divided.
[11:17.220 --> 11:19.720]  [SPEAKER_25]: And we find ourselves so many.
[11:20.160 --> 11:22.320]  [SPEAKER_25]: In a difficult disagreement.
[11:23.260 --> 11:25.260]  [SPEAKER_25]: Not only with our colleagues.
[11:25.260 --> 11:31.300]  [SPEAKER_25]: But with so many associates and friends outside this chamber.
[11:32.080 --> 11:39.300]  [SPEAKER_25]: With whom we have had so many years of association and respectful cooperation.
[11:41.170 --> 11:42.820]  [SPEAKER_25]: And that has been difficult.
[11:44.270 --> 11:47.240]  [SPEAKER_25]: It has been an emotional debate to some degree.
[11:47.840 --> 11:50.680]  [SPEAKER_25]: Because it is a debate about consequence.
[11:52.060 --> 11:53.640]  [SPEAKER_25]: Consequence for our future.
[11:54.240 --> 11:55.900]  [SPEAKER_25]: Consequence for our constituents.
[11:57.500 --> 11:59.300]  [SPEAKER_25]: We are the House of Representatives.
[12:00.440 --> 12:02.680]  [SPEAKER_25]: We have that solemn duty.
[12:03.460 --> 12:05.140]  [SPEAKER_25]: That tremendous opportunity.
[12:05.800 --> 12:10.160]  [SPEAKER_25]: To represent 600,000 or so of our fellow citizens.
[12:11.870 --> 12:13.380]  [SPEAKER_25]: And I stand here tonight.
[12:14.720 --> 12:16.580]  [SPEAKER_25]: As all of us have stood here.
[12:17.300 --> 12:20.040]  [SPEAKER_25]: As a representative of my constituents.
[12:20.910 --> 12:22.980]  [SPEAKER_25]: And I have had to ask the question.
[12:23.260 --> 12:25.500]  [SPEAKER_25]: As each one of you has had to ask.
[12:26.220 --> 12:27.920]  [SPEAKER_25]: Himself or herself the question.
[12:28.580 --> 12:30.260]  [SPEAKER_25]: Is this a good agreement?
[12:31.700 --> 12:33.380]  [SPEAKER_25]: Not only for our country.
[12:34.060 --> 12:35.880]  [SPEAKER_25]: For our states and regions.
[12:36.560 --> 12:39.420]  [SPEAKER_25]: But it is a good agreement for our constituents.
[12:39.420 --> 12:43.120]  [SPEAKER_25]: Those we have that high responsibility and opportunity to represent.
[12:44.290 --> 12:47.840]  [SPEAKER_25]: For myself, I have given the answer it is.
[12:48.260 --> 12:50.240]  [SPEAKER_25]: It is not a perfect agreement.
[12:50.640 --> 12:52.600]  [SPEAKER_25]: We don't pass perfect laws.
[12:53.120 --> 12:56.040]  [SPEAKER_25]: One can always ask for something better.
[12:56.420 --> 12:59.740]  [SPEAKER_25]: One can always find defects and deficiencies.
[13:00.180 --> 13:04.100]  [SPEAKER_25]: One can always hope for some more perfect instrument.
[13:05.740 --> 13:13.060]  [SPEAKER_25]: But this is, for this moment, an opportunity to expand our trade.
[13:13.060 --> 13:14.940]  [SPEAKER_25]: To reach out beyond our borders.
[13:15.240 --> 13:16.900]  [SPEAKER_25]: To continue our leadership.
[13:17.740 --> 13:19.480]  [SPEAKER_25]: To seize the future.
[13:20.800 --> 13:26.320]  [SPEAKER_25]: And to do so on behalf, first of all, of our constituents and our citizens.
[13:26.320 --> 13:34.580]  [SPEAKER_25]: But with the knowledge that it will be to the benefit of those neighbors north and south on both sides of the border.
[13:35.480 --> 13:41.940]  [SPEAKER_25]: Can anyone believe that the conditions on the border will be better if we reject NAFTA?
[13:42.260 --> 13:46.380]  [SPEAKER_25]: That opportunities in Mexico will be less if we reject NAFTA?
[13:46.380 --> 13:49.640]  [SPEAKER_25]: A standard of living lower if we reject NAFTA?
[13:52.790 --> 14:00.610]  [SPEAKER_25]: I believe that the standard of living of our neighbors in Mexico will rise because of NAFTA.
[14:00.770 --> 14:03.610]  [SPEAKER_25]: And that will be good for the standard of living of Americans.
[14:03.930 --> 14:05.990]  [SPEAKER_25]: Of our opportunities to export.
[14:06.330 --> 14:09.030]  [SPEAKER_25]: Of our opportunities to protect our standard of living.
[14:09.290 --> 14:12.130]  [SPEAKER_25]: Of our opportunities for a brighter future for our citizens.
[14:12.930 --> 14:20.150]  [SPEAKER_25]: I think, despite our interest in our neighbors, we must probably decide this issue selfishly.
[14:20.150 --> 14:22.550]  [SPEAKER_25]: Is it good for America or not?
[14:22.630 --> 14:24.710]  [SPEAKER_25]: If it is not, we should reject it.
[14:24.790 --> 14:28.750]  [SPEAKER_25]: But I believe passionately it is good for our country and good for our future.
[14:29.130 --> 14:34.350]  [SPEAKER_25]: But I understand, I appreciate the attitudes of others.
[14:34.350 --> 14:48.630]  [SPEAKER_25]: And it has been especially difficult for me to have divisions of opinion with, among others, two of my fellow leaders, for whom I have the greatest respect, Dick Gephardt and Dave Bunyan.
[14:49.230 --> 14:55.630]  [SPEAKER_25]: They represent, as you have heard tonight, an intense feeling opposite of mine.
[14:55.630 --> 15:05.850]  [SPEAKER_25]: Not in our goals, not in our hopes, not in our visions, but in our beliefs of what brings our country to those goals that we all see.
[15:08.550 --> 15:12.470]  [SPEAKER_25]: Each one of us now, in a few moments, will have to cast a vote.
[15:15.130 --> 15:18.450]  [SPEAKER_25]: This is the place where a decision must be made on this issue.
[15:20.230 --> 15:24.490]  [SPEAKER_25]: More than in the other body, this is the critical place for a decision tonight.
[15:26.950 --> 15:45.390]  [SPEAKER_25]: Almost 200 years ago, in I think this part of the gallery, a British visitor asked Alexander Hamilton, as he watched a particularly fractious and difficult debate, what was going on on the floor?
[15:46.730 --> 15:52.470]  [SPEAKER_25]: And Alexander Hamilton answered, Sir, there the people govern.
[15:54.010 --> 15:56.090]  [SPEAKER_25]: To govern is to choose.
[15:57.070 --> 15:59.130]  [SPEAKER_25]: And we must make our choice.
[16:00.610 --> 16:22.010]  [SPEAKER_25]: But whether we make it for approval of the NAFTA agreement, as I hope and believe we will and should, or in opposition, let us take from this chamber, in addition to the decision that we make for our fellow citizens and for the American people, a respect for each other,
[16:23.030 --> 16:45.470]  [SPEAKER_25]: a dignity that each one of us should give to all, on all sides of this question, that each has acted for what he or she believed to be the good, if not the best, the good, for our fellow citizens and for the future of our nation.
[16:46.130 --> 16:54.010]  [SPEAKER_25]: Let not this debate, or our decision, rend the fabric of our democracy.
[16:54.210 --> 16:59.670]  [SPEAKER_25]: Let it be something to strengthen us as we face the challenges of the future.
[17:01.510 --> 17:06.630]  [SPEAKER_25]: I go now to the chair to put this question to the House.
[17:07.830 --> 17:16.310]  [SPEAKER_25]: And I do so with the prayer that it will be the right decision for our people and the right decision for this great institution.
[17:17.610 --> 17:19.770]  [SPEAKER_25]: Mr. Speaker, I yield back the balance of my time.
[17:20.970 --> 17:23.230]  [SPEAKER_12]: Speaker of the House, Thomas Foley.
[17:24.870 --> 17:33.230]  [SPEAKER_12]: A final speaker in today's very long debate on the House floor on the North American Free Trade Agreement.
[17:33.230 --> 17:38.530]  [SPEAKER_12]: The House will very shortly be going to a vote on NAFTA.
[17:38.770 --> 17:42.730]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's been a historic day of debate, and we're headed towards that historic vote now.
[17:42.730 --> 17:45.630]  [SPEAKER_15]: This time has expired under the rule that committee rises.
[17:56.220 --> 18:02.240]  [SPEAKER_12]: You're listening to Pacifica's live coverage of the House of Representatives' debate and vote on NAFTA.
[18:02.360 --> 18:08.480]  [SPEAKER_15]: Mr. Speaker of the Committee of the Whole House on the State of the Union has had under consideration the bill H.R.
[18:09.060 --> 18:12.140]  [SPEAKER_15]: 3450 in pursuant to House Resolution No.
[18:12.320 --> 18:15.460]  [SPEAKER_15]: 311, I report the bill back to the House.
[18:16.260 --> 18:22.900]  [SPEAKER_25]: The Committee of the Whole House on the State of the Union reports that the Committee has had under consideration the bill H.R.
[18:23.660 --> 18:26.680]  [SPEAKER_25]: 3450 in pursuant to House Resolution No.
[18:27.340 --> 18:30.220]  [SPEAKER_25]: 311, reports the bill back to the House.
[18:30.680 --> 18:32.960]  [SPEAKER_25]: Under the rule, the previous question is ordered.
[18:33.600 --> 18:36.440]  [SPEAKER_25]: The question is on the engrossment and third reading of the bill.
[18:37.020 --> 18:38.920]  [SPEAKER_25]: So many of those in favor will say aye.
[18:40.560 --> 18:41.420]  [SPEAKER_25]: Opposed, no.
[18:41.700 --> 18:42.220]  [SPEAKER_25]: The ayes...
[18:43.000 --> 18:44.080]  [SPEAKER_25]: The ayes have it.
[18:44.580 --> 18:45.440]  [SPEAKER_25]: Third reading of the bill.
[18:45.440 --> 18:48.800]  [SPEAKER_11]: A bill to implement the North American Free Trade Agreement.
[18:49.300 --> 18:51.500]  [SPEAKER_25]: The question is on the passage of the bill.
[18:51.940 --> 18:53.840]  [SPEAKER_25]: So many of those in favor will say aye.
[18:54.140 --> 18:54.640]  Aye.
[18:55.240 --> 18:56.000]  [SPEAKER_25]: Opposed, no.
[18:57.640 --> 18:59.020]  [SPEAKER_25]: The ayes have it.
[18:59.020 --> 18:59.420]  [SPEAKER_25]: Mr. Speaker.
[19:00.100 --> 19:02.160]  [SPEAKER_25]: What purpose are the gentlemen from New York or aye?
[19:02.280 --> 19:06.020]  [SPEAKER_25]: I was going to let it go through on a voice vote, but may I respectfully ask for a recorded vote.
[19:06.660 --> 19:09.260]  [SPEAKER_25]: A gentleman from New York demands a recorded vote.
[19:09.380 --> 19:14.420]  [SPEAKER_25]: So many as are in favor of taking the vote by a recorded vote, will stand and remain standing.
[19:15.000 --> 19:15.020]  Aye.
[19:15.740 --> 19:19.520]  [SPEAKER_25]: Evidently, a sufficient number having arisen, the ayes and nays are ordered.
[19:19.840 --> 19:23.060]  [SPEAKER_25]: So many as are in favor of the passage of the bill will vote aye.
[19:23.060 --> 19:23.080]  [SPEAKER_25]: Aye.
[19:23.300 --> 19:24.480]  [SPEAKER_25]: Those opposed, no.
[19:24.760 --> 19:27.640]  [SPEAKER_25]: Members will record their votes by electronic device.
[19:33.700 --> 19:38.460]  [SPEAKER_12]: And the House begins its vote on the North American Free Trade Agreement.
[19:39.100 --> 19:46.080]  [SPEAKER_12]: This is Julie Driessen with Charles Tate in the studios of WPFW in Washington, D.C., Pacifica Station.
[19:46.080 --> 19:53.320]  [SPEAKER_12]: We've been with you since 8.30 this morning, at the beginning of our so-called pre-game show.
[19:53.620 --> 20:06.720]  [SPEAKER_12]: And the House of Representatives has been discussing every possible aspect, just about, of the North American Free Trade Agreement in about 12 hours of debate.
[20:07.300 --> 20:11.080]  [SPEAKER_12]: We've come to the final moment, the vote on NAFTA.
[20:12.960 --> 20:29.480]  [SPEAKER_12]: And in the final speakers, we did hear from the leadership of the Democrats and Republicans, Bob Michael, Dick Gebhardt, and Tom Foley, making a passionate plea for people to vote the way that they want to vote.
[20:29.600 --> 20:45.320]  [SPEAKER_12]: But Tom Foley ultimately saying that he believes that everybody would vote their conscience and that members of the House would have to come together again after being so divided within each party once this vote is over.
[20:45.900 --> 20:49.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: The issue has been an issue of surprises for the country.
[20:49.620 --> 20:54.720]  [SPEAKER_05]: I think for the people in the country and certainly for the members of the House.
[20:55.120 --> 21:09.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: And while the Speaker made a gallant and eloquent plea for reconciliation, the question is whether or not, in fact, something has been ruptured and whether it can be put back together again.
[21:11.100 --> 21:22.060]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, President Clinton, the first Democratic president that we've had in a long time, has had to lean very heavily on Republican support in order to get NAFTA passed.
[21:22.060 --> 21:30.160]  [SPEAKER_12]: And the Associated Press surveys tell us that it is likely to pass 13 more minutes until the final tally is ready.
[21:30.160 --> 21:34.420]  [SPEAKER_12]: In the meantime, Ken Longmire is with us.
[21:34.580 --> 21:41.020]  [SPEAKER_12]: He's the director of international affairs at the Joint Center for Political and Economic Studies here in Washington.
[21:41.020 --> 21:41.440]  [SPEAKER_12]: Ken?
[21:41.660 --> 21:42.400]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yes, I'm here.
[21:42.580 --> 21:44.440]  [SPEAKER_12]: Have you been following the debate today?
[21:44.580 --> 21:45.220]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yes, I have.
[21:45.720 --> 22:09.020]  [SPEAKER_12]: And my understanding is that you've been a supporter of NAFTA, one of the underlying assumptions of the North American Free Trade Agreement, which was an idea we heard today on the floor, a vision of President Ronald Reagan, and articulated and put onto paper by President George Bush,
[22:09.180 --> 22:18.840]  [SPEAKER_12]: finally supported here by President Clinton, is trickle-down economics, which I believe the jury has said has not been successful.
[22:18.840 --> 22:20.200]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, I'm wondering your thoughts on that.
[22:20.460 --> 22:23.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, if you can have a couple of seconds to sort of lead into it.
[22:23.300 --> 22:24.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: I've been thinking about it.
[22:24.440 --> 22:41.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: And one of the things that saddened me during this whole debate is it's revealed a certain alienation within our people that I talk to many people who, in the black community especially, and in the labor community, who did not challenge too much the assertion that NAFTA would enrich the United States as a whole,
[22:41.660 --> 22:46.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: but they felt that they or their people would be excluded from this, just the benefits of NAFTA.
[22:46.540 --> 22:51.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I think that there's enough blame to go around on that sense of alienation.
[22:53.000 --> 23:03.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: And one of the things that I've heard, especially from labor, is that when NAFTA was being drafted, when the American positions were being drafted, and when they were being negotiated, that labor basically was excluded.
[23:04.080 --> 23:12.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I'm going to go back and check on that, because if that is true, then it is not at all surprising that labor and blacks tended to be very suspicious of it.
[23:12.620 --> 23:14.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: And that worries me a great deal.
[23:17.970 --> 23:49.430]  [SPEAKER_05]: I wonder if, and maybe when you go back and take a look at it, it seems to me that the deal that got made between Richard Gebhardt and George Bush was that if Gebhardt would support Fast Track, then Bush would, of course, be accommodating or at least forthcoming with regard to writing,
[23:49.750 --> 23:57.030]  [SPEAKER_05]: having, supporting in the enabling legislation those elements that Gebhardt outlined tonight.
[23:57.030 --> 24:02.470]  [SPEAKER_05]: Do you have a... is your recollection pretty much along those lines or...?
[24:02.470 --> 24:04.150]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'll have to pass on that.
[24:04.190 --> 24:06.330]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'm just terribly not sure, and I don't want to be wrong.
[24:07.530 --> 24:20.150]  [SPEAKER_06]: But one of the things we did at the Joint Center where I work, at the Joint Center for Political and Economic Studies, earlier in the spring, is we held a meeting one day, invited leaders of the black community, a lot of the people from...
[24:20.850 --> 24:37.070]  [SPEAKER_06]: people from labor, from the economic institutes, from commerce, from the State Department, from the USTR, and it revealed... the conversation revealed that a lot of the technocrats in the government, one I wish I used to be myself, really were not sensitive to labor and black concerns about NAFTA.
[24:37.930 --> 24:49.850]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I think that, again, that just makes a point that people, if they are not excluded, if they're not at the table in shaping a policy, when it comes time to ask for political support for that policy, you don't get it, or it becomes very, very hard to get,
[24:49.930 --> 24:53.270]  [SPEAKER_06]: and it's a rather divisive exercise, as we've seen tonight.
[24:53.270 --> 25:17.890]  [SPEAKER_05]: Given that kind of feeling, why is it to think that Bill Clinton, who came into office with those groups who perhaps feel alienated as a core constituency, and certainly the black community gave him 30 or 40 percent of the net vote he needed to win?
[25:17.890 --> 25:22.930]  [SPEAKER_06]: Right, and the black community gave, I think it was 86 percent of the black vote went to Clinton.
[25:23.170 --> 25:25.410]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's the highest community vote in America.
[25:25.950 --> 25:35.850]  [SPEAKER_05]: Why, then, do you think that, at the point that this became a Clinton initiative, that those people were not invited in?
[25:36.530 --> 25:47.750]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, again, I was not really that close to it at that point, but I think that by then, most of it, with the exception of the side agreements, had been pretty much set in concrete.
[25:48.130 --> 25:50.250]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, as I say, I want to go back and check on this.
[25:50.330 --> 25:55.070]  [SPEAKER_06]: I've just been hearing it, especially in the last couple of days, and I haven't had a chance to really check it out.
[25:55.530 --> 26:00.950]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I'm saying if it is true, then there's a terrible lesson to be learned there for the future, for all administrations.
[26:01.690 --> 26:17.410]  [SPEAKER_12]: And the word from the House floor is that NAFTA has passed 222, 224, and still counting votes in favor of NAFTA, enough for it to pass 179 tallied so far again.
[26:17.610 --> 26:24.890]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, the North American Free Trade Agreement has passed the House of Representatives, and will soon go to the Senate.
[26:26.050 --> 26:30.430]  [SPEAKER_12]: And I want to thank all of you for staying with us.
[26:30.430 --> 26:32.550]  [SPEAKER_12]: We're going to wrap up momentarily.
[26:33.350 --> 26:35.830]  [SPEAKER_12]: One final thing I wanted to ask you.
[26:37.650 --> 26:38.210]  [SPEAKER_12]: Can...
[26:38.210 --> 26:49.130]  [SPEAKER_12]: Dick Gebhardt, in his final plea against NAFTA, said, this country was not built on cheap labor, which seemed to be not the fact.
[26:49.290 --> 26:54.690]  [SPEAKER_12]: This country was built on slave labor, immigrant labor, indentured servitude and child labor.
[26:55.530 --> 27:04.750]  [SPEAKER_12]: And he was trying to tell people that we would not go back to days in cheap labor, or we would not support cheap labor in Mexico.
[27:04.850 --> 27:08.870]  [SPEAKER_12]: One of the arguments against NAFTA has been that it will lower wages in this country.
[27:09.030 --> 27:09.750]  [SPEAKER_12]: Your thoughts on that?
[27:15.340 --> 27:16.340]  [SPEAKER_12]: Are you still with us?
[27:16.420 --> 27:16.980]  [SPEAKER_12]: Oh, I'm sorry.
[27:18.100 --> 27:19.960]  [SPEAKER_12]: Ken Longmire is no longer with us.
[27:20.780 --> 27:22.640]  [SPEAKER_12]: I want to thank you all for joining me.
[27:22.640 --> 27:26.920]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'm Julie Drizzen here in Washington at the studios of WPFW.
[27:27.180 --> 27:32.660]  [SPEAKER_12]: With me for the last 14 hours has been Charles Tate of the Booker T.
[27:32.780 --> 27:33.680]  [SPEAKER_12]: Washington Foundation.
[27:33.680 --> 27:35.360]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's been nice working with you, Charles.
[27:35.520 --> 27:36.600]  [SPEAKER_05]: Julie, it's been a pleasure.
[27:36.960 --> 27:41.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's really been a long but really a good and rewarding day.
[27:44.520 --> 27:59.360]  [SPEAKER_12]: And votes are still being tallied on NAFTA, but as predicted, President Clinton has gotten the 228 votes, mostly Republicans, in favor of NAFTA, to make the agreement into law.
[28:00.020 --> 28:04.460]  [SPEAKER_12]: You've been listening to Pacifica Radio's live broadcast from Washington, D.C.
[28:04.460 --> 28:06.320]  [SPEAKER_12]: on the North American Free Trade Agreement.
[28:06.320 --> 28:10.280]  [SPEAKER_12]: Thank you all who've called in to support the program with your pledges.
[28:11.680 --> 28:14.480]  [SPEAKER_12]: And this is Julie Drizzen saying goodnight.
[28:34.370 --> 28:37.130]  [SPEAKER_23]: And this is WBAI New York.
[28:38.930 --> 28:51.790]  [SPEAKER_23]: After a short pause while I find out exactly what's on the newswire, we will continue a little discussion of what's happened or what hasn't happened today.
[28:52.410 --> 28:54.690]  [SPEAKER_23]: But that will be following a couple of messages.
[28:58.830 --> 29:00.670]  [SPEAKER_18]: Hi, Richard B.
[29:00.750 --> 29:01.250]  [SPEAKER_18]: Isles here.
[29:01.630 --> 29:13.790]  [SPEAKER_18]: As executive producer of Musical Expressions, I'm pleased to announce that after a five-month hiatus, Musical Expressions will be returning to the air on Friday mornings, beginning December 3rd in our old time slot from 9.30 a.m.
[29:13.810 --> 29:14.470]  [SPEAKER_18]: to 12 noon.
[29:15.630 --> 29:20.470]  [SPEAKER_18]: Musical Expressions remains committed to the perpetuation of America's indigenous art form, jazz.
[29:20.990 --> 29:24.650]  [SPEAKER_18]: And to that end, I hope to make the show even better than it was before.
[29:24.650 --> 29:32.370]  [SPEAKER_18]: So mark December 3rd, 1993 on your calendar as the date that Musical Expressions returns to WBAI New York.
[29:33.210 --> 29:39.510]  [SPEAKER_18]: 99.5 in the center of your FM dial, where there's always something stimulating going on.
[29:40.110 --> 29:41.470]  [SPEAKER_18]: It's great to be back.
[29:55.320 --> 29:57.860]  [SPEAKER_11]: We can get it if we organize.
[29:58.960 --> 30:01.500]  [SPEAKER_11]: We can get it if we organize.
[30:02.880 --> 30:05.320]  [SPEAKER_11]: We can get it if we organize.
[30:05.600 --> 30:06.440]  [SPEAKER_11]: We need this fight.
[30:07.100 --> 30:08.320]  [SPEAKER_11]: Fight and fight.
[30:08.800 --> 30:10.720]  [SPEAKER_11]: Fight and fight.
[30:11.820 --> 30:17.300]  [SPEAKER_20]: Building Bridges, Community Labor Report, Thursdays, 7.30 through 8.30 p.m.
[30:17.300 --> 30:21.340]  [SPEAKER_20]: People in Motion, where they live, where they work, how they organize.
[30:21.560 --> 30:26.240]  [SPEAKER_20]: An exploration of people and issues that shape these important movements for social change.
[30:26.680 --> 30:32.400]  [SPEAKER_20]: Building Bridges, a Community Labor Report, Thursdays, 7.30 through 8.30 p.m.
[30:32.820 --> 30:36.500]  [SPEAKER_20]: over WBAI 99.5 FM.
[30:48.880 --> 30:51.680]  [SPEAKER_23]: And it's just about 10.30 p.m.
[30:51.900 --> 30:59.540]  [SPEAKER_23]: And we have here, without a windscreen, but he'll get on mic anyway, Emmanuel Goldstein.
[30:59.640 --> 31:01.840]  [SPEAKER_24]: The people at home don't even know what a windscreen is.
[31:02.040 --> 31:02.860]  [SPEAKER_24]: Well, they could learn a little.
[31:02.860 --> 31:06.620]  [SPEAKER_24]: It's this device that's on top of a microphone that does something.
[31:06.740 --> 31:07.140]  [SPEAKER_24]: I don't know why.
[31:07.260 --> 31:07.820]  [SPEAKER_24]: It's something that...
[31:07.820 --> 31:08.120]  [SPEAKER_24]: Peas pops.
[31:08.340 --> 31:08.500]  [SPEAKER_24]: Yeah.
[31:08.860 --> 31:10.020]  [SPEAKER_24]: You could make them like crazy.
[31:10.080 --> 31:11.440]  [SPEAKER_24]: I won't say any words of peas in them.
[31:11.520 --> 31:17.280]  [SPEAKER_24]: But we're here tonight to discuss NAFTA, and what it means, and where it's going.
[31:17.520 --> 31:18.840]  [SPEAKER_24]: Off the Hook will not be on tonight.
[31:19.580 --> 31:26.000]  [SPEAKER_24]: We'll be back next week at 10 o'clock, as will the Personal Computer Show at 9 o'clock, and Explorations at 8.
[31:28.440 --> 31:30.220]  [SPEAKER_23]: And you should feel free to call in.
[31:30.220 --> 31:33.960]  [SPEAKER_23]: And I don't know that we have a lot to add to the discussion.
[31:33.960 --> 31:35.100]  [SPEAKER_23]: There was plenty of it.
[31:35.240 --> 31:37.780]  [SPEAKER_24]: Well, I'd like to hear what our listeners have to say about it.
[31:37.880 --> 31:38.060]  [SPEAKER_24]: I would.
[31:38.600 --> 31:41.060]  [SPEAKER_24]: What the AI listeners think, if NAFTA is a good thing or not.
[31:41.160 --> 31:48.440]  [SPEAKER_24]: I don't think I've ever seen an issue that has torn left and right, Democrat, Republican, and whatnot, so much as this.
[31:48.620 --> 31:55.200]  [SPEAKER_23]: Well, it does seem, in any event to me, that it makes it clear that there's one political party.
[31:55.420 --> 31:57.940]  [SPEAKER_23]: The Republicans or the Republicans, whichever you prefer.
[31:57.940 --> 31:59.900]  [SPEAKER_24]: Yeah, something very strange.
[32:00.240 --> 32:12.580]  [SPEAKER_23]: And Clinton followed through on a treaty negotiated by a predecessor that he apparently was somewhat dubious of before he got into office.
[32:13.300 --> 32:14.600]  [SPEAKER_23]: Caller, you're on the air.
[32:14.740 --> 32:14.980]  [SPEAKER_23]: Hello.
[32:16.300 --> 32:16.920]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yes, hello.
[32:17.400 --> 32:20.400]  [SPEAKER_10]: I'd like to blame NAFTA on the staff at WBAI.
[32:20.560 --> 32:21.600]  [SPEAKER_10]: And may I tell you why?
[32:22.700 --> 32:23.640]  [SPEAKER_23]: This ought to be good.
[32:23.760 --> 32:24.820]  [SPEAKER_23]: This should be, yes.
[32:25.040 --> 32:25.600]  [SPEAKER_23]: Go, please.
[32:25.600 --> 32:33.340]  [SPEAKER_10]: Because WBAI was given to the Pacifica Foundation for the benefit of the listeners on the outside for alternate radio.
[32:33.660 --> 32:41.260]  [SPEAKER_10]: What has happened is the staff have been ripping WBAI off to put on their own propaganda with the result that nobody listens.
[32:41.560 --> 32:50.380]  [SPEAKER_10]: If WBAI were to put on what we on the outside won, you get an audience of maybe 4% or maybe even 10% instead of the 0.2%.
[32:50.380 --> 32:55.640]  [SPEAKER_10]: And WBAI would make $20 million would be the most powerful influence there is.
[32:55.760 --> 32:57.660]  [SPEAKER_10]: But no, we have to have this propaganda.
[32:57.920 --> 32:59.100]  [SPEAKER_24]: Sir, you're out there on the outside.
[32:59.100 --> 32:59.720]  [SPEAKER_24]: What do you want?
[33:00.100 --> 33:01.040]  [SPEAKER_10]: I'd like...
[33:01.040 --> 33:03.980]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, I'm just one person out of a million possible listeners.
[33:04.140 --> 33:06.840]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's what the alternate public wants, not what I want.
[33:06.920 --> 33:07.800]  [SPEAKER_10]: I don't know what you want either.
[33:08.880 --> 33:09.980]  [SPEAKER_24]: So you don't know what you want?
[33:09.980 --> 33:13.740]  [SPEAKER_10]: I do know what I want, but I'm not gonna say because it's irrelevant.
[33:13.880 --> 33:17.460]  [SPEAKER_10]: What's relevant is what a million people want, not what one person wants.
[33:17.540 --> 33:19.620]  [SPEAKER_24]: Okay, so when the million people call, we'll start asking them.
[33:19.840 --> 33:24.200]  [SPEAKER_23]: And as a matter of fact, we have five people on the line, and I'd like to hear what this one has to say.
[33:25.480 --> 33:27.920]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yes, NAFTA is a scab.
[33:28.320 --> 33:31.460]  [SPEAKER_14]: Watch what organized labor does to this scab.
[33:31.940 --> 33:32.740]  [SPEAKER_14]: Just watch.
[33:33.380 --> 33:34.360]  [SPEAKER_23]: What do you think it'll do?
[33:34.420 --> 33:38.760]  [SPEAKER_23]: As a matter of fact, they've made serious threats about congressmen who vote for the thing.
[33:39.760 --> 33:44.160]  [SPEAKER_23]: And it's questionable whether they can make good on those threats or whether it's wanted.
[33:44.320 --> 33:44.860]  [SPEAKER_23]: What do you think?
[33:45.060 --> 33:50.440]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, I watched what happened in Canada, and I think out of 144, only two retained their seats.
[33:50.620 --> 33:59.420]  [SPEAKER_14]: I know in November these $2 whores will be turned out into the streets, and I'm gonna help anything I can do to defeat this NAFTA.
[33:59.420 --> 34:01.920]  [SPEAKER_14]: When I say this NAFTA, we'll go for a treaty.
[34:01.920 --> 34:03.580]  [SPEAKER_14]: We know we have to have one.
[34:04.000 --> 34:05.020]  [SPEAKER_14]: Europe has organized.
[34:05.060 --> 34:07.700]  [SPEAKER_14]: We know we have to have one, but not this one.
[34:07.700 --> 34:09.140]  [SPEAKER_14]: I'm not led by this bum.
[34:09.400 --> 34:12.460]  [SPEAKER_24]: Well, sir, can I ask you, what do you think is wrong with NAFTA specifically?
[34:13.280 --> 34:17.440]  [SPEAKER_14]: First of all, all incompetent statement is anti-labor.
[34:17.740 --> 34:19.200]  [SPEAKER_14]: I'm labor all my life.
[34:19.340 --> 34:20.380]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's anti-labor.
[34:20.600 --> 34:30.160]  [SPEAKER_14]: Even if I own a small company, when you gotta give me 55 cents an hour, and I'm paying $8 an hour here, and hospitalization and everything else, I'm going south.
[34:30.620 --> 34:31.820]  [SPEAKER_14]: It makes sense.
[34:32.960 --> 34:33.220]  [SPEAKER_23]: Mm-hmm.
[34:33.980 --> 34:34.800]  [SPEAKER_23]: Well, thank you, Colin.
[34:34.920 --> 34:36.620]  [SPEAKER_23]: We have a few others on the line.
[34:36.800 --> 34:36.900]  [SPEAKER_23]: Yeah.
[34:36.900 --> 34:37.980]  [SPEAKER_23]: I do appreciate your call.
[34:38.100 --> 34:38.420]  [SPEAKER_23]: Thank you.
[34:38.520 --> 34:39.680]  [SPEAKER_23]: Sounds like two against so far.
[34:39.880 --> 34:44.180]  [SPEAKER_23]: I think you're gonna find that a lot of the listeners here are gonna be very skeptical.
[34:44.500 --> 34:45.540]  [SPEAKER_23]: Colin, what do you think?
[34:46.480 --> 34:52.460]  [SPEAKER_13]: Uh, I wanted to ask you, what do you think about SA bleaching?
[34:53.080 --> 34:53.120]  [SPEAKER_13]: Okay.
[34:54.020 --> 34:57.140]  [SPEAKER_24]: Well, no, I know precisely what he was getting at.
[34:57.200 --> 34:58.880]  [SPEAKER_24]: That's gonna be a neutral vote.
[34:59.360 --> 35:02.420]  [SPEAKER_23]: That was, uh, the all-purpose racist vote.
[35:02.620 --> 35:03.840]  [SPEAKER_23]: And caller, you're on the air.
[35:04.560 --> 35:05.040]  [SPEAKER_23]: Caller?
[35:05.300 --> 35:05.540]  [SPEAKER_20]: Hello.
[35:05.960 --> 35:06.240]  [SPEAKER_23]: Hi.
[35:07.560 --> 35:08.240]  [SPEAKER_20]: Go ahead.
[35:08.460 --> 35:08.640]  [SPEAKER_20]: Hello.
[35:09.300 --> 35:10.260]  [SPEAKER_23]: Yes, you're there.
[35:10.440 --> 35:11.080]  [SPEAKER_23]: You really are.
[35:11.280 --> 35:11.560]  [SPEAKER_23]: Talk.
[35:11.920 --> 35:12.820]  [SPEAKER_24]: Throw off the hook on.
[35:14.480 --> 35:15.420]  [SPEAKER_23]: A vote for you?
[35:15.420 --> 35:15.500]  [SPEAKER_23]: Thank you.
[35:15.640 --> 35:16.340]  [SPEAKER_23]: That is a vote either.
[35:16.540 --> 35:17.640]  [SPEAKER_24]: I'm not running for this thing.
[35:18.760 --> 35:19.120]  [SPEAKER_23]: Caller?
[35:19.260 --> 35:20.920]  [SPEAKER_23]: What do you have to say about NAFTA?
[35:21.040 --> 35:21.960]  [SPEAKER_23]: Talk of Lombard.
[35:23.160 --> 35:25.260]  [SPEAKER_23]: I'm not quite sure, but it sounded like trouble.
[35:25.260 --> 35:27.620]  [SPEAKER_24]: NAFTA seems to be having a bad effect on people in one way or another.
[35:27.940 --> 35:28.580]  [SPEAKER_23]: Uh, yes.
[35:28.580 --> 35:30.220]  [SPEAKER_23]: Let's see what this caller has to say.
[35:30.380 --> 35:33.160]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, I'm disgruntled, but I'm not a prank caller.
[35:33.480 --> 35:56.940]  [SPEAKER_07]: Um, one thing I would have liked for somebody to propose, if this is only a terrorist bill and this has nothing to do with getting all that cheap Mexican labor, then why don't they write part of the NAFTA bill that says any company dealing with Mexican employees has to pay them the exact same rates that they pay their American employees and that no American company should be allowed to deal with
[35:56.940 --> 36:00.740]  [SPEAKER_07]: foreign companies and pay them less than they pay equivalent American workers.
[36:00.740 --> 36:04.540]  [SPEAKER_07]: And let's see how much overseas running they do then.
[36:05.340 --> 36:13.040]  [SPEAKER_23]: They clearly wouldn't, uh, they don't have any interest in paying anything over the market rate, whatever makes that market what it is.
[36:13.140 --> 36:34.320]  [SPEAKER_23]: And by the way, actually, what wasn't discussed is, uh, financial implications that, uh, there was an article in Business Week, uh, about two months ago saying in their headline something like gringo banks drooling over Mexico, and the Mexican banks have a much higher rate of profit than American banks,
[36:34.400 --> 36:38.160]  [SPEAKER_23]: and the American banks will, they expect, blow the Mexicans away.
[36:38.360 --> 36:47.520]  [SPEAKER_24]: You know, a lot has been said about the political situation in Mexico, the fact that they're not a nice democratic country like us, um, and that might, might be, uh, true and all.
[36:47.860 --> 36:55.860]  [SPEAKER_24]: The question I have is, with this treaty, uh, will we be more in a position to pressure them to be more like us, perhaps?
[36:56.200 --> 36:56.520]  [SPEAKER_23]: Mm-hmm.
[36:56.520 --> 36:57.120]  [SPEAKER_23]: More enlightened.
[36:57.640 --> 37:02.500]  [SPEAKER_23]: Yes, that sounds like a constructive engagement that Bush used to have in South Africa.
[37:02.960 --> 37:05.420]  [SPEAKER_23]: We shall see, uh, business is business.
[37:05.600 --> 37:06.460]  [SPEAKER_23]: Caller, you're on the air.
[37:07.540 --> 37:07.980]  [SPEAKER_23]: Caller?
[37:09.380 --> 37:12.740]  [SPEAKER_23]: You were, you had your chance, and now this caller is on the air.
[37:13.600 --> 37:14.040]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yes.
[37:14.340 --> 37:15.440]  [SPEAKER_23]: Turn your radio down, okay?
[37:15.640 --> 37:16.760]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yes, I'm gonna do that right now.
[37:16.840 --> 37:17.180]  [SPEAKER_08]: Hold on.
[37:17.320 --> 37:17.560]  [SPEAKER_23]: Mm-hmm.
[37:18.020 --> 37:20.900]  [SPEAKER_24]: Our number is 212-279-3400.
[37:21.940 --> 37:25.680]  [SPEAKER_23]: And you can call, we have several calls, but we do have an empty line.
[37:26.280 --> 37:27.260]  [SPEAKER_23]: And, okay, hello.
[37:27.720 --> 37:31.820]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, um, what, where I'm gonna come from is a little different.
[37:32.120 --> 37:32.320]  [SPEAKER_13]: Mm-hmm.
[37:32.380 --> 37:32.720]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay.
[37:33.040 --> 37:41.920]  [SPEAKER_08]: And this NAFTA thing seems like they want to legitimatize where they, what they've been doing all along.
[37:42.320 --> 38:02.480]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, a lot of companies have relocated, and I, I just think that it's like their conscience is, you know, bothering them, these companies, so they're pressuring for this NAFTA to pass, so it legitimatizes and eases their conscience for what they've been doing anyway.
[38:02.960 --> 38:20.320]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh, well, it sounds a little, you know, it's a little left field-ish, if you, you know, and I, I admit it, but I, I just can't help but think that the way they're struggling to pass this thing so fast, it, it, it sounds like their conscience is bothering them,
[38:20.460 --> 38:23.800]  [SPEAKER_08]: and they want to legitimatize what they've been doing all along.
[38:23.800 --> 38:24.600]  [SPEAKER_08]: Mm-hmm.
[38:24.600 --> 38:30.380]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's, that's the way, you know, kind of, I, I, I kind of feel at, I sense that slightly.
[38:30.680 --> 38:30.740]  [SPEAKER_24]: Mm-hmm.
[38:31.160 --> 38:33.280]  [SPEAKER_08]: You know, let's get it, let's get it, let's get it.
[38:33.440 --> 38:37.780]  [SPEAKER_24]: Do you think, uh, NAFTA will result in, uh, in less jobs, more jobs leaving this country?
[38:38.580 --> 38:39.420]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, it has.
[38:39.580 --> 38:41.760]  [SPEAKER_08]: It has already, if, you know...
[38:41.760 --> 38:42.360]  [SPEAKER_24]: No, NAFTA.
[38:42.440 --> 38:43.580]  [SPEAKER_24]: NAFTA doesn't exist yet.
[38:43.820 --> 38:44.320]  [SPEAKER_08]: Excuse me?
[38:44.460 --> 38:45.420]  [SPEAKER_24]: NAFTA doesn't exist yet.
[38:45.540 --> 38:46.700]  [SPEAKER_24]: Do you think it's going to increase?
[38:47.020 --> 38:49.960]  [SPEAKER_08]: I think it's going to legitimatize what they've been doing all along.
[38:50.340 --> 38:50.620]  [SPEAKER_24]: Mm-hmm.
[38:51.020 --> 38:53.680]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's, that, that's basically their conscience is bothering them.
[38:54.180 --> 38:55.420]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's what I really think.
[38:55.640 --> 39:07.220]  [SPEAKER_08]: And, and, and, you know, it's like, you know, they, they, they, they got their hands stuck in the cookie jar, and now they're, they want to legitimatize what they've been doing, uh, because a lot of people have lost their jobs.
[39:07.400 --> 39:14.180]  [SPEAKER_08]: I've, I've been in the electronics, I was in the electronics industry out in Long Island, and I've really seen the effect that it had.
[39:14.360 --> 39:23.660]  [SPEAKER_08]: I mean, when I started pulling stuff off the shelves assembled in Mexico, I mean, it really started hitting home that there was something, you know, with this Mexican.
[39:23.740 --> 39:32.460]  [SPEAKER_08]: I'm going back to 85, you know, you know, and I'm, I'm pulling parts, like I said, components off the shelf assembled in Mexico in 85.
[39:33.300 --> 39:39.940]  [SPEAKER_08]: So, and I've seen the electronics industry out in Long Island go down on a 45 degree angle since 85.
[39:40.880 --> 39:42.060]  [SPEAKER_23]: That's better than 90.
[39:42.060 --> 39:52.460]  [SPEAKER_08]: Scott, if you, if you, if you go out on Long Island, and you just, you know, look at the electronics industry, and what's, what's happened to it, it's been on a steady decline since 1985.
[39:53.320 --> 39:54.940]  [SPEAKER_08]: I, I did temporarily...
[39:55.480 --> 39:58.040]  [SPEAKER_24]: I'd just like to ask a question when we go to our next call.
[39:58.500 --> 40:03.540]  [SPEAKER_24]: Um, for people to look at this in a slightly different way, how does this affect Mexico?
[40:03.680 --> 40:04.700]  [SPEAKER_24]: Is this good for Mexico?
[40:04.960 --> 40:05.940]  [SPEAKER_24]: Or is this bad for Mexico?
[40:05.960 --> 40:09.680]  [SPEAKER_24]: I know we're all here in the United States, and we're primarily concerned with how it affects us here.
[40:09.900 --> 40:13.280]  [SPEAKER_24]: But, the way I've been looking at this, because it's very confusing, it really is.
[40:13.940 --> 40:20.640]  [SPEAKER_24]: How does it affect this, for all intents and purposes, third world country, that's right next door to us, that has a lot of poverty?
[40:21.180 --> 40:26.680]  [SPEAKER_24]: Is this something that's going to be good, or something that's going to wind up hurting even more?
[40:26.780 --> 40:27.940]  [SPEAKER_24]: That's something I'd like to address.
[40:28.120 --> 40:35.460]  [SPEAKER_23]: And actually, I'd like to respond to something a caller said about the congressman's consciences bothering them.
[40:36.000 --> 40:37.400]  [SPEAKER_23]: I can't believe that.
[40:37.400 --> 40:45.120]  [SPEAKER_23]: Uh, they are, in effect, the agents of very wealthy men who care about business.
[40:45.120 --> 40:46.240]  [SPEAKER_23]: Is it good for business?
[40:46.780 --> 40:55.140]  [SPEAKER_23]: And, Congress does some awful things, as anybody who reads a newspaper critically knows.
[40:55.420 --> 40:57.580]  [SPEAKER_24]: They preempted off the hook tonight, that's one thing they did.
[40:58.200 --> 40:59.380]  [SPEAKER_23]: Hello, you're on the air.
[40:59.380 --> 41:00.200]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, hello.
[41:01.180 --> 41:07.560]  [SPEAKER_04]: I just heard that speech of Gephardt, Representative Gephardt, that you broadcast.
[41:08.360 --> 41:13.180]  [SPEAKER_23]: Well, certainly he was one of the people speaking, he was very against NAFTA, but I didn't hear it myself.
[41:13.360 --> 41:14.860]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, well, it was really amazing.
[41:15.140 --> 41:18.160]  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, you know, you just hear all this, like, blah, blah, blah.
[41:18.160 --> 41:24.380]  [SPEAKER_04]: And suddenly he said that he disclosed something that happened during the negotiations.
[41:24.380 --> 41:33.080]  [SPEAKER_04]: He said he thought that Clinton sort of inherited this bad bill from Bush, but he tried to fix it, and he was on the team that was supposed to try to fix it.
[41:33.080 --> 41:53.140]  [SPEAKER_04]: And they said that they were willing to pass it, like he was willing to give his support, if Mexico would have allowed labor to organize, like the right of labor to organize, to allow, like, its wages to become more like us, as opposed to, you know, building the whole thing on the backs of labor.
[41:53.140 --> 42:06.140]  [SPEAKER_04]: And that although the Mexicans agreed to certain child labor laws and other sorts of things, they adamantly refused that provision that actually would sort of allow free labor unions.
[42:06.140 --> 42:27.720]  [SPEAKER_04]: And it was his position that the Mexican government was sort of in favor of extremely low labor wage in Mexico, and that that's what the American worker was fighting against, that sort of an organized attempt coordinated by the whole Mexican government to keep the Mexican labor wages low.
[42:27.720 --> 42:32.260]  [SPEAKER_04]: And I was surprised that this hadn't been brought up by anybody before.
[42:32.520 --> 42:38.600]  [SPEAKER_04]: It was sort of amazing that, actually, in the middle of a debate, somebody said something that was, like, really super intelligent.
[42:38.600 --> 42:40.920]  [SPEAKER_04]: It made the whole thing much clearer, suddenly.
[42:41.640 --> 42:42.740]  [SPEAKER_23]: Well, thank you, caller.
[42:43.220 --> 42:45.520]  [SPEAKER_23]: Emmanuel, you're something, a piece of news.
[42:45.740 --> 42:48.520]  [SPEAKER_24]: Well, just the official report from Reuters.
[42:49.340 --> 42:57.240]  [SPEAKER_24]: For those just tuning in wondering what's going on, the House of Representatives passed the North American Free Trade Agreement by a wider than expected margin.
[42:57.720 --> 43:01.580]  [SPEAKER_24]: Earlier tonight, giving President Clinton an important come-from-behind victory.
[43:02.080 --> 43:05.500]  [SPEAKER_24]: He must be feeling really good about now having a beer or something.
[43:06.040 --> 43:09.240]  [SPEAKER_24]: The vote in favor of the pact was 234 to 200.
[43:09.240 --> 43:17.460]  [SPEAKER_24]: The Democratic White House had needed just 218 votes to pass the measure, which was negotiated under the administration of Republican President George Bush.
[43:18.400 --> 43:22.480]  [SPEAKER_24]: 132 Republicans joined 102 Democrats to pass the measure.
[43:22.480 --> 43:29.420]  [SPEAKER_24]: Just last week, it looked likely that Clinton would suffer a stinging defeat on NAFTA, but intense deal-making turned the tide in the final days.
[43:29.580 --> 43:35.100]  [SPEAKER_24]: The pact to link the United States, Mexico, and Canada in a free trade bloc now goes to the Senate.
[43:35.500 --> 43:40.520]  [SPEAKER_24]: Approval there in the next few days is considered a safe bet, paving the way for the three nations to join forces next year.
[43:40.920 --> 43:51.840]  [SPEAKER_24]: The highly charged debate pitted Clinton against many in his own Democratic Party, who fear big job losses to Mexico, and it had been viewed as a crucial test of America's direction in the post-Cold War world.
[43:51.840 --> 43:53.740]  [SPEAKER_24]: Certainly history is being made here tonight.
[43:54.000 --> 43:54.800]  [SPEAKER_23]: Well, we don't know.
[43:55.720 --> 44:06.400]  [SPEAKER_23]: It does seem that in all these debates, and there was plenty of it, there was never a feeling, at least I never had a feeling, that it was being argued in good faith.
[44:06.400 --> 44:24.800]  [SPEAKER_23]: This is a very, very big economic deal, and these people like Ross Perot and Al Gore, when they debated, both of them know where everybody is buried, and Al Gore buried a few of them personally, I'm sure.
[44:24.800 --> 44:33.360]  [SPEAKER_23]: And they never talked about why certain industrialists, the owners of these companies, would be for it and some against.
[44:34.300 --> 44:44.680]  [SPEAKER_23]: And it would have been refreshing had we heard real debate, but the common people need not take part in such a debate or even know about it.
[44:45.480 --> 44:47.720]  [SPEAKER_23]: B.A.I., you're on the air.
[44:48.220 --> 44:48.380]  [SPEAKER_09]: Hi.
[44:48.660 --> 44:50.400]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, you're cutting in and out, so...
[44:58.080 --> 45:03.220]  [SPEAKER_09]: In good faith, and we respect you on the other side of making the right decision.
[45:03.540 --> 45:05.600]  [SPEAKER_09]: Those people are being paid off, man.
[45:05.740 --> 45:08.360]  [SPEAKER_09]: And it's so evident that they're being paid off.
[45:08.500 --> 45:10.700]  [SPEAKER_09]: And then he gets this come-from-behind victory.
[45:10.920 --> 45:12.140]  [SPEAKER_09]: That's such bullshit.
[45:13.360 --> 45:16.300]  [SPEAKER_23]: Well, if you could watch your language a little, we could keep you on a little longer.
[45:16.440 --> 45:18.360]  [SPEAKER_23]: Yeah, politics makes people say things like that.
[45:19.240 --> 45:22.700]  [SPEAKER_23]: Well, in the smoke-filled rooms, I'm sure they speak only like that.
[45:23.520 --> 45:24.040]  [SPEAKER_23]: They do.
[45:24.200 --> 45:29.000]  [SPEAKER_23]: But what the caller says makes quite a bit of sense.
[45:29.000 --> 45:32.940]  [SPEAKER_23]: I don't know that this was pre-ordained.
[45:32.940 --> 45:44.400]  [SPEAKER_23]: It was foreordained, but Bill Clinton worked very hard building bridges all over the country and dams or whatever else people wanted or making deals.
[45:44.560 --> 45:46.180]  [SPEAKER_23]: I believe he made a deal in Florida.
[45:46.640 --> 45:50.080]  [SPEAKER_23]: Citrus growers were very afraid of Mexican citrus coming in.
[45:50.240 --> 45:53.580]  [SPEAKER_24]: You know, it's interesting because there were all these deals being made.
[45:53.580 --> 46:00.620]  [SPEAKER_24]: And I have to wonder, what about those poor congressmen that were supporting NAFTA from the start and didn't get anything special for their efforts?
[46:01.100 --> 46:03.500]  [SPEAKER_24]: They must feel kind of foolish right now because...
[46:03.500 --> 46:15.060]  [SPEAKER_24]: And it also sends some kind of a signal saying that if you, you know, oppose the president on something important like this, you know, it's actually better for you because when you finally come around to his side, you'll have all this free constituents.
[46:15.280 --> 46:23.200]  [SPEAKER_24]: I mean, you know, if our elected officials down here had come out in support of NAFTA, we might have gotten some neat bridges or something.
[46:23.300 --> 46:23.700]  [SPEAKER_24]: Who knows?
[46:23.860 --> 46:24.760]  [SPEAKER_24]: Something we could have used.
[46:25.860 --> 46:27.100]  [SPEAKER_24]: Listener, you're on the air.
[46:27.660 --> 46:28.060]  [SPEAKER_23]: Caller?
[46:28.620 --> 46:29.060]  [SPEAKER_16]: Good evening.
[46:29.200 --> 46:29.580]  [SPEAKER_23]: Good evening.
[46:29.840 --> 46:34.920]  [SPEAKER_16]: I agree with the previous caller.
[46:34.920 --> 46:39.460]  [SPEAKER_16]: You know, it was disgusting to see how this country is put together.
[46:39.460 --> 46:41.600]  [SPEAKER_16]: You know, it's nothing but big bucks.
[46:41.600 --> 46:49.740]  [SPEAKER_16]: You know, I mean, the lack of sensitivity they have towards us, you know, and how they insult everyone's intelligence.
[46:49.740 --> 46:58.960]  [SPEAKER_16]: And, you know, it's just, it was a, I don't know what to call it, you know, but I've completely lost faith in, you know, in this whole system, you know.
[46:59.200 --> 47:02.300]  [SPEAKER_16]: It's not going to benefit us, you know, the working people.
[47:02.300 --> 47:04.420]  [SPEAKER_16]: So, I don't know what to call it.
[47:04.480 --> 47:07.300]  [SPEAKER_16]: What is it, a new brand of capitalism under another facade?
[47:07.440 --> 47:09.500]  [SPEAKER_16]: I mean, down the line, what do we do?
[47:09.540 --> 47:13.040]  [SPEAKER_16]: Go into Mexico and raid them and kill them because we have interest there?
[47:13.040 --> 47:15.240]  [SPEAKER_16]: You know, good night.
[47:16.780 --> 47:18.780]  [SPEAKER_24]: This really is getting people upset a lot.
[47:18.920 --> 47:23.800]  [SPEAKER_24]: I mean, we've talked about some controversial issues before, but NAFTA really seems to be hitting home.
[47:26.700 --> 47:28.780]  [SPEAKER_23]: People are very worried, very afraid.
[47:28.900 --> 47:31.420]  [SPEAKER_23]: The economy looks like it's going absolutely nowhere.
[47:31.420 --> 47:38.380]  [SPEAKER_24]: Well, now, the question I have to ask here is, how much of an effect can Mexico possibly have in worst-case scenario?
[47:38.680 --> 47:43.420]  [SPEAKER_23]: Well, the worst-case scenario, I think, is that it'll have a devastating...
[47:44.540 --> 47:46.340]  [SPEAKER_23]: It will hold down wages.
[47:47.560 --> 47:51.980]  [SPEAKER_23]: Even if tens of millions of jobs don't go down there...
[47:51.980 --> 47:53.380]  [SPEAKER_24]: Yeah, but we had Reagan for eight years.
[47:53.520 --> 47:55.440]  [SPEAKER_24]: I mean, that held down wages pretty much.
[47:55.440 --> 47:56.480]  [SPEAKER_24]: How much can Mexico do?
[47:57.200 --> 48:05.880]  [SPEAKER_24]: I'm not saying this is necessarily a good thing, but I'm just wondering if people might be worrying a little bit too much.
[48:06.060 --> 48:09.800]  [SPEAKER_24]: I see a lot of Mexico bashing going on, and that makes me kind of queasy here.
[48:10.260 --> 48:12.820]  [SPEAKER_23]: I mean, the race question comes in.
[48:12.880 --> 48:14.140]  [SPEAKER_23]: It always seems to in this country.
[48:14.820 --> 48:17.660]  [SPEAKER_24]: We have the right to back out after six months, though.
[48:18.080 --> 48:19.100]  [SPEAKER_24]: That's how I understand it.
[48:19.160 --> 48:22.940]  [SPEAKER_24]: Six months after this thing goes into effect, if it's not working out, we have the right to back out.
[48:23.220 --> 48:26.180]  [SPEAKER_23]: Well, we, you and I, have a difference in pronouns.
[48:26.180 --> 48:28.280]  [SPEAKER_24]: Right, yeah, but theoretically.
[48:28.820 --> 48:30.400]  [SPEAKER_23]: Well, the U.S.
[48:30.480 --> 48:31.940]  [SPEAKER_23]: government has the right to back out.
[48:32.740 --> 48:34.420]  [SPEAKER_23]: Clint would make such a decision.
[48:35.100 --> 48:36.640]  [SPEAKER_23]: Bloody unlikely he will.
[48:37.340 --> 48:38.380]  [SPEAKER_23]: WBAI, you're on the air.
[48:39.200 --> 48:39.580]  [SPEAKER_03]: Hello?
[48:39.900 --> 48:40.060]  [SPEAKER_23]: Hello.
[48:40.400 --> 48:40.920]  [SPEAKER_03]: Hi.
[48:41.060 --> 48:46.980]  [SPEAKER_03]: I read something in the Times yesterday that was particularly distressing on the op-ed page.
[48:47.040 --> 48:48.000]  [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know if you saw the article.
[48:49.860 --> 48:54.040]  [SPEAKER_03]: That governmental initiatives could be labeled barriers to trade.
[48:54.040 --> 48:54.620]  [SPEAKER_23]: Mm-hmm.
[48:54.840 --> 48:55.320]  [SPEAKER_03]: And...
[48:55.320 --> 48:57.060]  [SPEAKER_23]: I didn't see that, but that's quite true.
[48:57.320 --> 48:58.660]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, that's pretty scary.
[48:58.880 --> 48:59.940]  [SPEAKER_03]: The conclusion...
[48:59.940 --> 49:02.080]  [SPEAKER_03]: They mentioned something that happened in Ontario.
[49:02.440 --> 49:03.120]  [SPEAKER_03]: Do you want to hear it?
[49:03.360 --> 49:03.700]  [SPEAKER_23]: Mm-hmm.
[49:04.100 --> 49:09.020]  [SPEAKER_03]: In 1990, Ontario's provincial government proposed a universal public car insurance...
[49:09.020 --> 49:09.520]  [SPEAKER_23]: Oh, right.
[49:09.520 --> 49:10.820]  [SPEAKER_23]: Yes, I've heard of that, yeah.
[49:11.060 --> 49:11.880]  [SPEAKER_03]: ...and U.S.
[49:11.960 --> 49:18.840]  [SPEAKER_03]: insurance companies invoked the free trade agreement with Canada and demanded $2 billion compensation.
[49:19.440 --> 49:20.880]  [SPEAKER_03]: Ontario backed down.
[49:21.700 --> 49:28.560]  [SPEAKER_03]: And the conclusion they draw is that that could happen to us if we tried to institute a single-payer health insurance program...
[49:28.560 --> 49:28.880]  [SPEAKER_13]: Mm-hmm.
[49:29.060 --> 49:31.320]  [SPEAKER_03]: ...or subsidize solar energy or recycling.
[49:31.680 --> 49:35.300]  [SPEAKER_03]: That same kind of thing could happen to us, which is really very scary.
[49:35.500 --> 49:35.520]  [SPEAKER_23]: Yes.
[49:35.520 --> 49:40.000]  [SPEAKER_23]: Well, something similar has happened in Europe a year or two ago, maybe more.
[49:41.140 --> 49:55.180]  [SPEAKER_23]: They had laws, they were passing laws against hormone-enriched beef, cows that had been grown with growth hormones so they could give more milk and grow faster and with less fat or more fat or whatever they wanted.
[49:55.940 --> 49:57.220]  [SPEAKER_23]: And the U.S.
[49:57.340 --> 50:09.660]  [SPEAKER_23]: took that up at GATT, which is the General Agreement on Carousin Trade, which is a little bit of a wealthy country's club, economic club, and beat the U.S.
[50:09.720 --> 50:09.940]  [SPEAKER_23]: down.
[50:09.940 --> 50:12.660]  [SPEAKER_23]: as I recall it, because the U.S.
[50:12.780 --> 50:13.840]  [SPEAKER_23]: was using these hormones.
[50:14.020 --> 50:14.940]  [SPEAKER_23]: The Europeans didn't want it.
[50:15.040 --> 50:15.500]  [SPEAKER_23]: The U.S.
[50:15.640 --> 50:16.660]  [SPEAKER_23]: called it a trade issue.
[50:16.800 --> 50:18.980]  [SPEAKER_23]: The Europeans were saying it was a health issue.
[50:19.140 --> 50:20.640]  [SPEAKER_23]: And it's a very similar situation.
[50:20.860 --> 50:21.420]  [SPEAKER_13]: Mm-hmm.
[50:21.640 --> 50:27.120]  [SPEAKER_23]: That these kind of agreements tend to bring down levels to the lowest there is.
[50:27.560 --> 50:27.980]  [SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[50:28.580 --> 50:29.640]  [SPEAKER_23]: Well, Cola, thank you...
[50:29.640 --> 50:31.160]  [SPEAKER_03]: Is there anybody talking about that in Congress?
[50:32.060 --> 50:35.020]  [SPEAKER_23]: They have a lot to talk about for years to come, it seems.
[50:35.160 --> 50:38.500]  [SPEAKER_23]: I don't think that they're going to back out of this one in any six months.
[50:38.500 --> 50:39.940]  [SPEAKER_23]: But, Cola, thank you for that.
[50:40.200 --> 50:41.720]  [SPEAKER_23]: And, Emmanuel?
[50:42.120 --> 50:42.480]  [SPEAKER_23]: Yes.
[50:43.020 --> 50:44.780]  [SPEAKER_23]: Oh, I just thought you might have something about that.
[50:44.860 --> 50:45.520]  [SPEAKER_23]: Nothing at the moment.
[50:46.160 --> 50:47.280]  [SPEAKER_23]: Cola, you're on the air.
[50:47.620 --> 50:48.060]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yes.
[50:48.220 --> 51:00.200]  [SPEAKER_07]: If you think Mexico is the last of this, apparently the Caribbean is interested in getting trade agreements like this started, and you can probably expect it from other low-wage countries.
[51:00.500 --> 51:01.920]  [SPEAKER_07]: Check out this week's voice.
[51:02.880 --> 51:04.860]  [SPEAKER_24]: Well, is that necessarily something bad?
[51:04.860 --> 51:15.740]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, yeah, because apparently what it does, it causes American workers to have to compete with countries that are paying their people slave wages, and it's going to depress American wages.
[51:15.740 --> 51:21.920]  [SPEAKER_07]: Why should companies want to stay here when they can freely travel?
[51:21.920 --> 51:26.800]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, I mean, you know, people say that NAFTA is, you know, they make these claims about tariffs.
[51:26.940 --> 51:37.980]  [SPEAKER_07]: And what they're really saying is, well, if you've got a one-inch hole in the bottom of your boat, then it's better to let a, you know, it's better to drill a 12-inch hole in the bottom of your boat and let the water out faster.
[51:38.260 --> 51:39.880]  [SPEAKER_07]: You know, it's just a dumb argument.
[51:39.880 --> 51:43.260]  [SPEAKER_07]: What it's really going to do, it's going to make it easier for companies to go abroad.
[51:43.260 --> 52:01.500]  [SPEAKER_07]: And like people say, it's going to apparently, if we have laws, constitutionally based laws in this country that are in opposition to agreements they've signed in NAFTA for Mexico, let's say, then apparently NAFTA takes precedence as far as environmental regulation or the use of pesticides or,
[52:01.600 --> 52:04.240]  [SPEAKER_07]: you know, people can name, you can name several things.
[52:05.240 --> 52:09.380]  [SPEAKER_07]: And Mexico is maybe just a test case for doing this more and more in other countries.
[52:10.680 --> 52:12.000]  [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, that's the way it appears.
[52:12.180 --> 52:22.560]  [SPEAKER_07]: If I'm reading this article in The Voice, it says, well, people are talking about doing the, you know, there's a lot of interest in doing the same thing in the Caribbean and other places where they can get workers for dirt cheap.
[52:24.040 --> 52:28.440]  [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, we have the same problem in this country with the sugar workers here in Florida.
[52:28.440 --> 52:45.680]  [SPEAKER_07]: You know, they've got, they're paying, the Jamaican government is sort of working in collusion with the United States government to have these people come over from Jamaica to cut sugarcane and they keep them in horrible conditions, pay them just enough money so they can survive until the next cutting season.
[52:45.980 --> 52:50.880]  [SPEAKER_07]: And they ship them back and forth to Jamaica and they have, you know, terrible working conditions and no rights.
[52:51.740 --> 52:54.960]  [SPEAKER_07]: And they work in peonage and Congress knew this for 40 years.
[52:54.960 --> 53:01.360]  [SPEAKER_07]: So this is not like, NAFTA is not a new thing, it's just a continuation of the old, same old okey-doke that's been going on.
[53:01.400 --> 53:04.560]  [SPEAKER_07]: And that's what's so horrible is that they're ratcheting it up just another step.
[53:05.340 --> 53:06.960]  [SPEAKER_23]: That's an interesting way of looking at it.
[53:07.400 --> 53:29.180]  [SPEAKER_23]: It does seem, I think, in putting it in a different way, something I said before, that just as there's what's called a reserve army of unemployed, there can also be a reserve army of poorly paid that tends to have a downward effect on wages that are paid just as a general downward,
[53:29.400 --> 53:31.480]  [SPEAKER_23]: it forces down wages.
[53:33.520 --> 53:37.280]  [SPEAKER_23]: Unfortunately, this, I wish I knew more about this.
[53:37.760 --> 53:41.060]  [SPEAKER_24]: Well, it hasn't exactly been explained very clearly to anybody.
[53:41.520 --> 53:41.820]  [SPEAKER_24]: No, it hasn't.
[53:41.820 --> 53:43.920]  [SPEAKER_24]: I think it's just about as confused as anybody.
[53:45.080 --> 53:48.060]  [SPEAKER_24]: You have split loyalties.
[53:48.060 --> 53:51.420]  [SPEAKER_24]: You have Republicans following Clinton and Democrats opposing him.
[53:51.860 --> 53:52.740]  [SPEAKER_24]: It's kind of weird.
[53:52.960 --> 53:54.020]  [SPEAKER_24]: It's really very strange.
[53:54.180 --> 54:01.240]  [SPEAKER_24]: And in the months ahead, we're going to be learning a lot more about this, believe me, because it is going to affect us in some way.
[54:01.340 --> 54:03.140]  [SPEAKER_24]: We don't know exactly how it's going to affect us.
[54:03.180 --> 54:08.940]  [SPEAKER_24]: We don't know really what's going to happen, but I'm trying to keep myself open to all possibilities.
[54:08.940 --> 54:11.920]  [SPEAKER_24]: You know, a lot of people seem to think it's going to be a bad thing.
[54:12.500 --> 54:13.300]  [SPEAKER_24]: Maybe they're right.
[54:13.500 --> 54:16.040]  [SPEAKER_24]: Maybe there will be some good that comes out of this somehow.
[54:16.040 --> 54:22.660]  [SPEAKER_24]: Maybe Mexico and other countries will have more livable conditions as a result.
[54:22.940 --> 54:24.940]  [SPEAKER_24]: Or maybe that's just a naive way of looking at it.
[54:25.220 --> 54:32.160]  [SPEAKER_23]: And one thing that impressed me was that the labor union seemed fairly uniformly against this deal.
[54:34.040 --> 54:44.820]  [SPEAKER_23]: And what Clinton and Gore seemed to be saying was, don't worry, that essentially they were working against their own interests, that they were being stupid.
[54:44.820 --> 54:46.760]  [SPEAKER_23]: And I don't believe such a thing.
[54:46.880 --> 54:48.520]  [SPEAKER_24]: I mean, that's the strangest part.
[54:48.520 --> 54:53.480]  [SPEAKER_24]: If this had been Reagan-Bush proposing this, I really would have no trouble seeing what's wrong with this.
[54:53.480 --> 54:57.880]  [SPEAKER_24]: But, I mean, did Clinton and Gore get injected with some kind of drug or something?
[54:58.080 --> 55:03.900]  [SPEAKER_24]: This is too strange to just suddenly say, well, they just turned into, you know, Reagan-Bush types.
[55:04.480 --> 55:05.700]  [SPEAKER_24]: They must know something.
[55:05.820 --> 55:08.640]  [SPEAKER_24]: There's got to be something going on here that we don't really understand.
[55:09.100 --> 55:09.380]  [SPEAKER_24]: Right.
[55:09.500 --> 55:10.700]  [SPEAKER_24]: I'd sure like to know what it is.
[55:10.820 --> 55:12.620]  [SPEAKER_24]: I'd like to hear some more straight talk on this.
[55:13.140 --> 55:15.000]  [SPEAKER_24]: Well, caller, do you have some straight talk?
[55:15.000 --> 55:16.520]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, I have an opinion.
[55:17.360 --> 55:20.220]  [SPEAKER_19]: I'm very deeply concerned with this.
[55:20.340 --> 55:45.880]  [SPEAKER_19]: Because not only do I see that all the various people in the three countries will lose out, the Canadians, the Americans, and the Mexicans, that the general public will lose out in all three countries, I see only a few multinational corporations really benefiting the larger corporations who are outside of our control by the Congress anyway.
[55:46.580 --> 55:54.200]  [SPEAKER_19]: I see that happening more than it's happened so far, which is terrible for the economic state of all of us in North America.
[55:54.600 --> 56:02.000]  [SPEAKER_19]: I also see this, as I believe the last caller said, as something even more serious, if that can be.
[56:02.160 --> 56:06.620]  [SPEAKER_19]: And that is that we are going to have something above our own constitution.
[56:06.620 --> 56:07.340]  [SPEAKER_13]: Mm-hmm.
[56:07.860 --> 56:10.060]  [SPEAKER_19]: And nothing could be more serious.
[56:10.660 --> 56:13.800]  [SPEAKER_19]: Because that's all there is, as I see it.
[56:13.940 --> 56:17.860]  [SPEAKER_19]: And it's being eroded with every day, or every week.
[56:18.260 --> 56:18.540]  [SPEAKER_13]: Mm-hmm.
[56:18.660 --> 56:25.360]  [SPEAKER_19]: Some horrendous decision on the part of the judiciary, the Congress, whatever.
[56:26.000 --> 56:29.080]  [SPEAKER_19]: And this is the most serious one, as I see it.
[56:29.160 --> 56:35.800]  [SPEAKER_19]: And I will personally work against the re-election of anyone in my area that voted for this.
[56:36.720 --> 56:38.140]  [SPEAKER_19]: So that's my statement.
[56:38.540 --> 56:38.620]  [SPEAKER_23]: Okay.
[56:38.860 --> 56:39.420]  [SPEAKER_23]: Thank you.
[56:39.580 --> 57:01.140]  [SPEAKER_23]: And she brings up a very good point, at least to my way of seeing it, that there will be supranational bodies composed in I don't know what manner, but I do know that they will be secret and absolutely unaccountable to the people of any of the three countries involved.
[57:01.140 --> 57:08.980]  [SPEAKER_23]: And that is a great diminution of what are generally considered constitutionally protected rights.
[57:10.060 --> 57:11.900]  [SPEAKER_23]: Caller, you may be the very last.
[57:12.060 --> 57:12.800]  [SPEAKER_23]: Hello, you're on the air.
[57:12.800 --> 57:13.280]  [SPEAKER_17]: Hey, hello.
[57:13.400 --> 57:13.900]  [SPEAKER_17]: How you doing?
[57:15.520 --> 57:16.020]  Um...
[57:16.020 --> 57:18.200]  [SPEAKER_17]: I got two questions, real quick.
[57:18.740 --> 57:22.440]  [SPEAKER_17]: One, how do you feel, Emmanuel, about...
[57:22.440 --> 57:24.580]  [SPEAKER_17]: Personally, how do you feel about it?
[57:24.580 --> 57:33.720]  [SPEAKER_17]: And the second question is, why all of a sudden a big push for control on armament here in the United States?
[57:33.920 --> 57:42.700]  [SPEAKER_17]: Because the big excuse was politicians were running on the fact that there's too many guns on the street, too many killings, not enough jobs.
[57:43.240 --> 57:48.100]  [SPEAKER_17]: Nobody's talking about drugs, drug control, and billions of dollars being spent on it.
[57:48.420 --> 57:50.220]  [SPEAKER_17]: Now more and more jobs are leaving.
[57:50.740 --> 57:54.540]  [SPEAKER_17]: Politicians are pushing more and more for more control on arms.
[57:54.680 --> 57:56.420]  [SPEAKER_17]: And the country was founded on arms.
[57:56.840 --> 58:00.180]  [SPEAKER_17]: So how do we control government when it's out of control?
[58:00.940 --> 58:02.060]  [SPEAKER_17]: Hey, I'm gonna hang up.
[58:02.180 --> 58:05.220]  [SPEAKER_24]: Well, government has been out of control for quite some time.
[58:05.220 --> 58:09.240]  [SPEAKER_24]: I don't really... I don't think we have the time to address the arms issue.
[58:09.320 --> 58:14.320]  [SPEAKER_24]: As far as the NAFTA thing, my personal opinion is, I'm really not sure.
[58:15.300 --> 58:16.840]  [SPEAKER_24]: I'm being as honest as I possibly can.
[58:17.220 --> 58:18.260]  [SPEAKER_24]: I've been reading the papers.
[58:18.300 --> 58:19.240]  [SPEAKER_24]: I've been watching television.
[58:19.240 --> 58:21.000]  [SPEAKER_24]: I've seen all kinds of conflicting things.
[58:21.100 --> 58:30.400]  [SPEAKER_24]: And I think, you know, at this stage in the game, since the thing's been passed, and, you know, it might not seem like the best way to go about it at this point, but it's really our only choice.
[58:30.780 --> 58:31.860]  [SPEAKER_24]: We have to see what happens.
[58:32.020 --> 58:33.500]  [SPEAKER_24]: We have to see where this thing goes.
[58:34.140 --> 58:37.180]  [SPEAKER_24]: And if it's wrong, if it's bad, what do we do about it?
[58:37.540 --> 58:39.360]  [SPEAKER_24]: Because, you know, I don't believe in giving up.
[58:39.480 --> 58:42.620]  [SPEAKER_24]: I don't believe in saying, well, this has been passed, and that's the end of it.
[58:42.740 --> 58:43.720]  [SPEAKER_24]: Because it's not the end of it.
[58:43.740 --> 58:47.040]  [SPEAKER_24]: If it's a bad idea, if it doesn't work out, we can do something about it.
[58:47.140 --> 58:48.680]  [SPEAKER_24]: We have to do something about it.
[58:48.880 --> 58:51.980]  [SPEAKER_24]: If it's a good idea, maybe we're all wrong.
[58:51.980 --> 58:53.980]  [SPEAKER_24]: Maybe there's something good that will come out of this.
[58:54.080 --> 58:55.300]  [SPEAKER_24]: Maybe it will equalize things.
[58:55.600 --> 58:56.560]  [SPEAKER_24]: Personally, I doubt it.
[59:03.500 --> 59:04.260]  [SPEAKER_24]: It's interesting, I'll say that.
[59:04.540 --> 59:08.960]  [SPEAKER_24]: It's interesting to watch this thing unfolding and to realize that something's going to happen somehow.
[59:09.980 --> 59:11.480]  [SPEAKER_24]: And let's just keep an eye on it.
[59:11.560 --> 59:15.500]  [SPEAKER_24]: And if you listen to WBAI, you'll be about as informed as anybody.
[59:16.800 --> 59:28.600]  [SPEAKER_23]: Considering the state of the media and the level of discussion on these kind of issues, an issue that was a 1,300-page agreement, I haven't seen even two of them.
[59:28.800 --> 59:31.580]  [SPEAKER_23]: And Emmanuel, I'm afraid that's all we have time for.
[59:31.580 --> 59:32.480]  [SPEAKER_23]: It's 11 o'clock.
[59:32.600 --> 59:33.800]  [SPEAKER_23]: This is WBAI.
[59:34.080 --> 59:35.760]  [SPEAKER_23]: We are going to hear a message.
[59:35.820 --> 59:44.480]  [SPEAKER_23]: I'll tell you a little recap of what's happened tonight, and then go to a rebroadcast of this evening's news.
[01:00:07.160 --> 01:00:08.380]  [SPEAKER_01]: Hey, can I borrow your pen?
[01:00:08.760 --> 01:00:09.400]  [SPEAKER_02]: Sure you can.
[01:00:09.480 --> 01:00:10.140]  [SPEAKER_02]: What you working on?
[01:00:10.280 --> 01:00:12.140]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm finishing my holiday shopping list.
[01:00:12.320 --> 01:00:12.660]  [SPEAKER_02]: Already?
[01:00:13.160 --> 01:00:15.200]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you know, the holidays are just around the corner.
[01:00:15.600 --> 01:00:17.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, you got a lot of stuff down there.
[01:00:17.340 --> 01:00:18.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: What are some of those things?
[01:00:18.880 --> 01:00:26.040]  [SPEAKER_01]: Glass perfume bottles, pearl drop earrings, wool scarves, wooden toys, ceramic vases, leather wallets.
[01:00:26.160 --> 01:00:29.420]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, it would be nice if you could get all of those things in one place.
[01:00:29.420 --> 01:00:30.060]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I can.
[01:00:30.440 --> 01:00:31.100]  [SPEAKER_02]: Where's that?
[01:00:31.300 --> 01:00:33.540]  [SPEAKER_01]: At the WBAI Holiday Crafts Fair.
[01:00:33.740 --> 01:00:36.540]  [SPEAKER_02]: You mean the one that's held the first three weekends in December?
[01:00:36.760 --> 01:00:40.740]  [SPEAKER_01]: At Columbia University's Ferris Bucal, 115th Street and Broadway.
[01:00:41.080 --> 01:00:43.040]  [SPEAKER_02]: The first three weekends in December.
[01:00:43.620 --> 01:00:45.560]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, when you finish, can I hold my pen again?
[01:00:45.560 --> 01:00:46.020]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[01:00:46.760 --> 01:00:47.000]  Okay.
[01:00:58.830 --> 01:01:00.990]  [SPEAKER_23]: And this is WBAI New York.
[01:01:01.110 --> 01:01:11.570]  [SPEAKER_23]: And about the only update that the news needs is the final result of the House of Representatives' vote on NAFTA, North American Free Trade Agreement.
[01:01:11.570 --> 01:01:14.650]  [SPEAKER_23]: It was 234 to 200.
[01:01:15.050 --> 01:01:21.030]  [SPEAKER_23]: That means that that was 234 voted for NAFTA, 200 voted against.
[01:01:21.030 --> 01:01:32.070]  [SPEAKER_23]: That means that was 16 votes more than was absolutely necessary to pass the measure that aroused such controversy and such befuddlement.
[01:01:32.070 --> 01:01:37.630]  [SPEAKER_23]: The news will tell you something of what else happened today.
[01:01:39.170 --> 01:01:46.430]  [SPEAKER_23]: And after that will be Robert Knight and Earthwatch here with the news.
[01:01:53.900 --> 01:01:54.820]  [SPEAKER_22]: Good evening.
[01:01:55.240 --> 01:01:59.500]  [SPEAKER_22]: In the news tonight, South Africa moves a step closer to a new constitution.
[01:01:59.820 --> 01:02:04.720]  [SPEAKER_22]: And in New York, a call for the rescue of Jews stranded in war-torn Bosnia.
[01:02:05.080 --> 01:02:10.060]  [SPEAKER_22]: With these and other stories, I'm Jose Santiago in New York with Gloria Minot in Washington.
[01:02:10.200 --> 01:02:14.020]  [SPEAKER_22]: And this is the news for Wednesday, November 17th, 1993.
[01:02:14.860 --> 01:02:18.140]  [SPEAKER_22]: First to Washington and these headlines topping the news.
[01:02:18.140 --> 01:02:24.100]  [SPEAKER_19]: The Senate today voted to ban 19 semi-automatic assault weapons as...