Off The Hook - 1994-02-02

[00:03.520 --> 00:05.940]  [SPEAKER_28]: Museum of the Air.
[00:06.220 --> 00:07.480]  [SPEAKER_28]: 9 p.m.
[00:07.620 --> 00:07.980]  [SPEAKER_28]: Saturday.
[00:08.540 --> 00:09.720]  [SPEAKER_28]: 9 p.m.
[00:10.300 --> 00:10.720]  [SPEAKER_28]: Saturday.
[00:42.820 --> 00:46.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: and we're sponsored WBAI 99.5 FM in New York.
[00:59.120 --> 01:00.440]  [SPEAKER_01]: Audio Quilts.
[01:00.580 --> 01:04.000]  [SPEAKER_01]: Engaging your mind far into the realm of creative listening.
[01:04.360 --> 01:05.920]  [SPEAKER_01]: Hi, I'm Rosemary Mealy.
[01:06.180 --> 01:09.520]  [SPEAKER_01]: Join me every Thursday evening from 9 until 10 p.m.
[01:09.600 --> 01:13.440]  [SPEAKER_01]: over listener-supported, non-commercial WBAI radio.
[01:13.440 --> 01:16.980]  [SPEAKER_01]: 99.5 FM for Audio Quilts.
[01:17.120 --> 01:20.760]  [SPEAKER_01]: A potpourri of things to come in the realm of creative listening.
[01:33.140 --> 01:38.100]  [SPEAKER_04]: And it's just about 10 o'clock here on radio station WBAI in New York.
[01:38.260 --> 01:39.360]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's Wednesday night.
[01:39.540 --> 01:40.540]  [SPEAKER_04]: Time for Off the Hook.
[01:57.140 --> 01:59.220]  [SPEAKER_26]: It couldn't get much worse.
[01:59.620 --> 02:04.510]  [SPEAKER_25]: Good, bon dilly bon, but I best expect the worst.
[02:05.170 --> 02:07.930]  [SPEAKER_25]: I hope that's understood, bon dilly bon.
[03:01.330 --> 03:03.790]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, sometimes it's good to hear the whole theme, don't you think?
[03:04.210 --> 03:06.350]  [SPEAKER_04]: This is Emmanuel Goldstein.
[03:06.490 --> 03:07.490]  [SPEAKER_04]: The program is Off the Hook.
[03:07.490 --> 03:18.330]  [SPEAKER_04]: We're back after two weeks of absence, after the marathon, after all the excitement and fun, and ready to start anew here as we begin February.
[03:19.050 --> 03:28.470]  [SPEAKER_04]: With more talk of telecommunications, computers, justice, injustice, progress, regression, and various other things along those lines.
[03:28.710 --> 03:29.490]  [SPEAKER_04]: A lot happening.
[03:29.670 --> 03:30.470]  [SPEAKER_04]: A lot going on.
[03:30.530 --> 03:31.450]  [SPEAKER_04]: A lot to update you on.
[03:31.570 --> 03:33.690]  [SPEAKER_04]: And, of course, we'll be taking phone calls in just a little bit.
[03:34.750 --> 03:46.410]  [SPEAKER_04]: A lot of people have been asking about Phiber Optik, who has been co-hosting this program for the past couple of years, and he has been sent to prison for a year and a day.
[03:46.550 --> 03:49.450]  [SPEAKER_04]: We will be giving out his address a little bit later on in the program.
[03:49.610 --> 03:50.790]  [SPEAKER_04]: We will also be hearing from him.
[03:51.010 --> 03:57.650]  [SPEAKER_04]: So stay tuned, and you can find out for yourself exactly how things are going along those particular lines.
[03:59.790 --> 04:05.150]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, we have all kinds of prison news as well, which we'll be getting to as well.
[04:07.150 --> 04:15.030]  [SPEAKER_04]: Something that I thought was pretty interesting came in the mail this week concerning the future, the future of the phone system.
[04:15.370 --> 04:16.730]  [SPEAKER_04]: The phone system is changing.
[04:17.290 --> 04:23.590]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's not too obvious to us right now, but in the next year or so, the phone system will be changing pretty dramatically.
[04:25.010 --> 04:30.670]  [SPEAKER_04]: Phone numbers will... not local numbers so much, but area codes will be changing their format.
[04:31.310 --> 04:38.130]  [SPEAKER_04]: And what that means is we'll no longer have to have a 1 or a 0 as the middle number of an area code.
[04:38.170 --> 04:51.730]  [SPEAKER_04]: Now, if you look at any area code now, you'll see that they all have 1s or 0s, whether it's area code 800, 212, 718, 908, they're all filling that particular regulation.
[04:52.550 --> 04:54.930]  [SPEAKER_04]: And that was made for a number of reasons.
[04:55.630 --> 05:01.950]  [SPEAKER_04]: The most obvious being that that was the way that primitive switching equipment would be able to tell whether a call was long distance or not.
[05:02.650 --> 05:06.490]  [SPEAKER_04]: That and the leading one in front of a 10-digit number would tell you that as well.
[05:07.290 --> 05:09.890]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, January 1st, 1995, that all changes.
[05:10.270 --> 05:14.690]  [SPEAKER_04]: And three-digit area codes can be any number you want.
[05:14.830 --> 05:18.010]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, not any number you want, but any number the phone companies decide upon.
[05:18.250 --> 05:31.990]  [SPEAKER_04]: In fact, there's already a few that are going to be starting up early next year, including 360 for part of Washington State, and 520 for Arizona, and 334 for Alabama.
[05:32.170 --> 05:33.270]  [SPEAKER_04]: So there's three right there.
[05:33.270 --> 05:36.610]  [SPEAKER_04]: Also, there's going to be a 456 area code.
[05:36.890 --> 05:38.730]  [SPEAKER_04]: And what that is going to be used for...
[05:38.730 --> 05:39.510]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's going to be rather interesting.
[05:39.690 --> 05:41.290]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's not going to be used within this country.
[05:41.290 --> 05:44.490]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's going to be used outside of the country for people calling in.
[05:45.150 --> 05:48.850]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's kind of unclear as to what exactly it's going to be used for.
[05:50.790 --> 06:01.390]  [SPEAKER_04]: I suspect it's going to be something along the lines of USA Direct, where people would prefix 456 in front of another number, and they would be connected to some operator of their choice.
[06:02.390 --> 06:04.110]  [SPEAKER_04]: We're getting documentation on this.
[06:04.270 --> 06:06.570]  [SPEAKER_04]: We'll learn more about it as the weeks go by.
[06:06.890 --> 06:10.270]  [SPEAKER_04]: But that's the news as far as how that is going to be changing.
[06:11.510 --> 06:13.470]  [SPEAKER_04]: Phone numbers will basically keep the same format.
[06:13.470 --> 06:18.730]  [SPEAKER_04]: However, you may see an increase in the number of times where you have to dial a full ten-digit phone number.
[06:19.550 --> 06:21.810]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's going to be a very interesting period of time.
[06:22.030 --> 06:28.230]  [SPEAKER_04]: And I think the effect that we'll have in the end is that we'll have ten-digit numbers, no longer seven-digit numbers.
[06:28.230 --> 06:32.250]  [SPEAKER_04]: And area codes will be passed out all over the place.
[06:33.630 --> 06:36.470]  [SPEAKER_04]: There's more changes, too, as far as dialing.
[06:37.730 --> 06:40.130]  [SPEAKER_04]: And this has to do with carrier identification codes.
[06:42.170 --> 06:46.250]  [SPEAKER_04]: Now, a lot of us know what carrier identification codes are, but even more of us don't.
[06:46.850 --> 06:55.190]  [SPEAKER_04]: And despite the efforts of some phone companies to get this information out to the public, it hasn't really gotten out all that much.
[06:55.190 --> 06:58.910]  [SPEAKER_04]: And a lot of people don't really understand what it's all about.
[06:59.350 --> 07:03.670]  [SPEAKER_04]: And I think most of our listeners know what a carrier identification code is, right?
[07:03.770 --> 07:10.510]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's that five-digit code that you dial to get another phone company or to route a call on another telephone company.
[07:11.630 --> 07:13.950]  [SPEAKER_04]: For instance, AT&T.
[07:14.390 --> 07:16.810]  [SPEAKER_04]: You would dial 10288.
[07:17.710 --> 07:18.950]  [SPEAKER_04]: And you would get...
[07:19.390 --> 07:21.770]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, you wouldn't get anything if you dialed just that.
[07:21.790 --> 07:24.450]  [SPEAKER_04]: You would have to dial either a zero after that or a full phone number.
[07:24.750 --> 07:28.990]  [SPEAKER_04]: And then you would get the call routed over that particular line.
[07:30.370 --> 07:32.090]  [SPEAKER_04]: Now, how many people really know this?
[07:32.130 --> 07:32.730]  [SPEAKER_04]: Let's find out.
[07:32.910 --> 07:33.970]  [SPEAKER_04]: Before we go any further.
[07:34.510 --> 07:35.730]  [SPEAKER_04]: Let's find out if...
[07:37.130 --> 07:39.910]  [SPEAKER_04]: Why not pick on our local NYNEX operator?
[07:41.450 --> 07:42.630]  [SPEAKER_04]: Just because they're there.
[07:42.770 --> 07:45.090]  [SPEAKER_04]: See if they know how to get Sprint.
[07:49.650 --> 07:50.090]  [SPEAKER_17]: NYNEX!
[07:51.490 --> 07:51.930]  [SPEAKER_04]: Wow.
[07:52.870 --> 07:54.050]  [SPEAKER_17]: Miss Smith, may I help you?
[07:54.850 --> 07:55.610]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, hi.
[07:55.610 --> 07:58.590]  [SPEAKER_04]: I need to know what the carrier access code is for...
[07:58.590 --> 07:59.730]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm sorry, for Sprint.
[08:00.610 --> 08:01.010]  [SPEAKER_17]: 333.
[08:01.730 --> 08:02.870]  [SPEAKER_04]: Alright, how would I dial that?
[08:03.850 --> 08:04.450]  [SPEAKER_17]: Excuse me?
[08:04.550 --> 08:05.550]  [SPEAKER_04]: I would just dial 333?
[08:05.990 --> 08:09.750]  [SPEAKER_17]: Well, I'll transfer you and then you can ask them how to dial it, okay?
[08:09.950 --> 08:10.190]  [SPEAKER_17]: Okay.
[08:10.310 --> 08:10.750]  [SPEAKER_17]: Hold on just a minute.
[08:10.930 --> 08:11.470]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, fine.
[08:12.030 --> 08:13.310]  [SPEAKER_04]: No point doing too much.
[08:13.450 --> 08:16.410]  [SPEAKER_17]: One moment for a long distance operator who can assist you.
[08:16.430 --> 08:16.830]  [SPEAKER_04]: What's her name?
[08:16.910 --> 08:17.430]  [SPEAKER_04]: Miss Miss?
[08:19.830 --> 08:20.230]  [SPEAKER_04]: Weird.
[08:22.950 --> 08:23.810]  [SPEAKER_09]: Sprint, this is Nate.
[08:23.950 --> 08:24.430]  [SPEAKER_09]: May I help you?
[08:24.830 --> 08:25.550]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, hi.
[08:25.850 --> 08:28.870]  [SPEAKER_04]: I just want to know what the carrier access code is for Sprint.
[08:28.870 --> 08:29.530]  [SPEAKER_09]: Uh...
[08:30.550 --> 08:30.950]  [SPEAKER_09]: 1033...
[08:31.750 --> 08:34.530]  [SPEAKER_09]: If you were dialing directly and billing to your home phone?
[08:34.610 --> 08:34.870]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yes.
[08:35.510 --> 08:36.310]  [SPEAKER_09]: 1033-31.
[08:37.970 --> 08:38.770]  [SPEAKER_04]: 1033-31.
[08:38.990 --> 08:39.250]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, sir.
[08:39.370 --> 08:40.470]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, thank you very much.
[08:40.610 --> 08:41.310]  [SPEAKER_04]: Thank you for dialing Sprint.
[08:41.350 --> 08:41.570]  [SPEAKER_04]: Alright.
[08:42.070 --> 08:42.690]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, boy.
[08:43.390 --> 08:43.730]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[08:44.850 --> 08:45.250]  [SPEAKER_04]: Technically...
[08:45.250 --> 08:48.910]  [SPEAKER_04]: Technically he's right, but he is confusing a lot of people by saying it like that.
[08:48.910 --> 08:51.950]  [SPEAKER_04]: He said 1033-31.
[08:52.130 --> 08:56.410]  [SPEAKER_04]: What he is actually saying is 1033-3 and then one plus.
[08:56.890 --> 08:59.270]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, because you would dial one before the area code.
[08:59.330 --> 09:01.310]  [SPEAKER_04]: But I mean, this is not the way they're advertising it.
[09:01.350 --> 09:02.050]  [SPEAKER_04]: This is not the way they...
[09:02.050 --> 09:04.870]  [SPEAKER_04]: That might be his personal way of giving out the number.
[09:05.490 --> 09:07.750]  [SPEAKER_04]: Alright, let's try the same thing with MCI.
[09:07.750 --> 09:08.650]  [SPEAKER_04]: See what we get on there.
[09:09.410 --> 09:09.570]  [SPEAKER_04]: Whoops.
[09:10.410 --> 09:11.070]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, the wrong number.
[09:15.190 --> 09:17.810]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, we're gonna try to get the same information for MCI.
[09:17.850 --> 09:18.750]  [SPEAKER_04]: See how hard that is.
[09:23.140 --> 09:23.640]  [SPEAKER_04]: 9-0.
[09:23.980 --> 09:25.180]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's inspirational, isn't it?
[09:25.340 --> 09:26.200]  [SPEAKER_17]: Can I help you?
[09:26.420 --> 09:26.780]  [SPEAKER_04]: Hi.
[09:26.980 --> 09:29.440]  [SPEAKER_04]: I need to know the carrier access code for MCI, please.
[09:31.500 --> 09:35.020]  [SPEAKER_17]: Okay, I'm gonna connect you with them and they'll tell you how to reach them in the future.
[09:35.260 --> 09:35.820]  [SPEAKER_04]: Thank you so much.
[09:35.920 --> 09:36.260]  [SPEAKER_04]: You're welcome.
[09:39.080 --> 09:40.860]  [SPEAKER_04]: Simple five-digit number, but...
[09:40.860 --> 09:43.960]  [SPEAKER_17]: One moment for a long-distance operator who can assist you.
[09:43.980 --> 09:45.060]  [SPEAKER_04]: This is more fun, isn't it?
[09:51.310 --> 09:52.170]  [SPEAKER_14]: Sprint, this is Charles.
[09:52.310 --> 09:52.770]  [SPEAKER_14]: May I help you?
[09:53.030 --> 09:54.110]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, yes, hi.
[09:54.230 --> 09:55.410]  [SPEAKER_04]: I thought you were MCI, actually.
[09:55.730 --> 09:58.030]  [SPEAKER_14]: Um, well, I...
[09:58.030 --> 09:59.270]  [SPEAKER_14]: I'm, uh, Sprint.
[09:59.270 --> 10:09.130]  [SPEAKER_14]: Uh, one of the reasons MCI callers have been defaulting to us is because of a major, uh, major line down in the MCI system, so...
[10:09.130 --> 10:09.510]  [SPEAKER_04]: Really?
[10:09.650 --> 10:10.850]  [SPEAKER_04]: What, what can you tell us about that?
[10:10.950 --> 10:12.730]  [SPEAKER_14]: Um, well, I believe...
[10:13.230 --> 10:19.090]  [SPEAKER_14]: From what I gather, there was a fiber cut in Michigan, which has affected, uh, service as far away as New York.
[10:19.270 --> 10:19.670]  [SPEAKER_04]: Really?
[10:20.030 --> 10:20.510]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yes, sir.
[10:20.770 --> 10:21.010]  [SPEAKER_04]: Weird.
[10:21.150 --> 10:22.450]  [SPEAKER_04]: Another fiber got cut, huh?
[10:22.730 --> 10:23.250]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yes, sir.
[10:23.330 --> 10:23.950]  [SPEAKER_04]: Do they know who did it?
[10:24.690 --> 10:26.110]  [SPEAKER_14]: Um, no, that I don't know.
[10:26.250 --> 10:28.270]  [SPEAKER_14]: That's, that's all I know, and, um...
[10:28.270 --> 10:35.310]  [SPEAKER_14]: And some of their operators have been referring their, uh, their customers to other sources until they get the problem corrected.
[10:35.510 --> 10:35.990]  [SPEAKER_04]: I see.
[10:36.810 --> 10:36.830]  [SPEAKER_04]: Hmm.
[10:37.230 --> 10:39.510]  [SPEAKER_04]: Were you trying to use a phone card, or what were you trying to do?
[10:39.590 --> 10:42.690]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, no, I was just trying to find out what the carrier access code was for MCI.
[10:42.790 --> 10:44.470]  [SPEAKER_14]: Oh, it's 102-220.
[10:45.490 --> 10:45.770]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[10:46.550 --> 10:47.630]  [SPEAKER_04]: All right, thank you so much.
[10:47.830 --> 10:48.330]  [SPEAKER_04]: All right, then.
[10:48.430 --> 10:49.170]  [SPEAKER_04]: Thank you for your Sprint.
[10:49.370 --> 10:49.590]  [SPEAKER_04]: Bye-bye.
[10:50.050 --> 10:51.110]  [SPEAKER_04]: Was that the same guy?
[10:51.350 --> 10:52.330]  [SPEAKER_04]: Did we get the same guy twice?
[10:52.450 --> 10:54.030]  [SPEAKER_04]: Because, I mean, he put the zero at the end now.
[10:54.250 --> 10:55.130]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, this is crazy.
[10:55.130 --> 10:59.270]  [SPEAKER_04]: This is, this is an indication of how nutso the whole phone system is.
[10:59.570 --> 11:02.810]  [SPEAKER_04]: Cable, cable splits and, and weird access codes.
[11:02.950 --> 11:03.270]  [SPEAKER_04]: All right, look.
[11:03.450 --> 11:04.470]  [SPEAKER_04]: This is how it works.
[11:05.490 --> 11:09.130]  [SPEAKER_04]: The access, the carrier access code for Sprint is 10333.
[11:09.930 --> 11:10.330]  [SPEAKER_04]: Simple.
[11:10.550 --> 11:10.750]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay?
[11:10.830 --> 11:14.690]  [SPEAKER_04]: If you want to dial an operator, you dial 10333, and then dial zero to get the operator.
[11:14.690 --> 11:21.730]  [SPEAKER_04]: If you want to dial a long distance call, you dial 10333, and then the phone number, which might consist of one plus, might not, depending on where you are.
[11:22.590 --> 11:29.390]  [SPEAKER_04]: For MCI, the exact same thing, except you replace the carrier access code with 102-2-2 instead of 103-3-3.
[11:29.630 --> 11:33.370]  [SPEAKER_04]: And for AT&T, you do 102-88, and there's all kinds of other ones as well.
[11:33.550 --> 11:34.390]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's very simple.
[11:34.390 --> 11:37.790]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's too bad your local operator can't, uh, can't tell you that.
[11:38.430 --> 11:39.350]  [SPEAKER_04]: Save all this fuss.
[11:39.530 --> 11:45.410]  [SPEAKER_04]: But, the important part about this whole story is that that system isn't going to be in use much longer.
[11:45.850 --> 11:46.350]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's right.
[11:46.450 --> 11:50.350]  [SPEAKER_04]: That system, the end is in sight.
[11:50.530 --> 11:51.210]  [SPEAKER_04]: The end is near.
[11:52.390 --> 11:53.910]  [SPEAKER_04]: And you know what it's going to be replaced by?
[11:55.490 --> 11:56.930]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, they're running out of numbers.
[11:56.990 --> 11:57.670]  [SPEAKER_04]: If you can believe that.
[11:57.730 --> 12:00.170]  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know where all these numbers are going, but they are running out of numbers.
[12:00.170 --> 12:07.910]  [SPEAKER_04]: And they've decided that instead of using three digits like they use now, the one and the zero are always there.
[12:07.990 --> 12:10.670]  [SPEAKER_04]: So, it's 102-2-2, 103-3-3.
[12:10.950 --> 12:13.570]  [SPEAKER_04]: Instead of using three digits, they'd like to use four.
[12:14.550 --> 12:16.030]  [SPEAKER_04]: So, they're going to change it.
[12:16.130 --> 12:21.250]  [SPEAKER_04]: And instead of dialing 10-X-X-X, you ready?
[12:21.470 --> 12:26.730]  [SPEAKER_04]: You're going to be dialing 101-X-X-X-X.
[12:27.390 --> 12:28.110]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's right.
[12:29.290 --> 12:33.570]  [SPEAKER_04]: They're adding, not one, but two digits to the whole dialing sequence.
[12:33.870 --> 12:35.890]  [SPEAKER_04]: 101-X-X-X-X.
[12:36.110 --> 12:39.430]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's before the phone call even gets started.
[12:39.530 --> 12:45.650]  [SPEAKER_04]: Now, can you imagine the confusion that's going to reign in the operator rooms when they try to give this information out?
[12:45.810 --> 12:50.230]  [SPEAKER_04]: When they haven't even mastered a simple five-digit code, they're going to have to give out a seven-digit code now.
[12:52.050 --> 12:52.690]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's unbelievable.
[12:53.030 --> 13:00.450]  [SPEAKER_04]: And I don't really know where all these numbers are being assigned, because I only can give out maybe six different carrier access codes off the top of my head.
[13:00.450 --> 13:01.530]  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know where all the others are.
[13:01.530 --> 13:14.390]  [SPEAKER_04]: So, you may very well hear someday somebody explaining the nice, simple way to dial using AT&T, and they'll say something like, dial 101-0-ATT-1-212-279-3400.
[13:15.550 --> 13:16.490]  [SPEAKER_04]: Write a letter.
[13:16.490 --> 13:18.170]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's a lot easier.
[13:18.470 --> 13:18.710]  It's a lot easier.
[13:19.150 --> 13:20.350]  [SPEAKER_04]: A lot less frustrating.
[13:20.530 --> 13:23.010]  [SPEAKER_04]: So, that's going to be happening probably in the next year.
[13:23.930 --> 13:24.510]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's right.
[13:24.570 --> 13:27.750]  [SPEAKER_04]: Probably in the next year that is going to be happening, because they're running out of numbers.
[13:30.130 --> 13:31.730]  [SPEAKER_04]: 101-X-X-X-X.
[13:31.830 --> 13:32.010]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[13:32.950 --> 13:34.070]  [SPEAKER_04]: Now, something else.
[13:34.110 --> 13:40.110]  [SPEAKER_04]: Another indication of growth, which I think is a much healthier indication, and that's the Internet.
[13:40.690 --> 13:43.310]  [SPEAKER_04]: The Internet is growing like crazy.
[13:44.150 --> 13:49.050]  [SPEAKER_04]: And I'm looking at a newsletter here called Matrix News.
[13:49.810 --> 13:55.910]  [SPEAKER_04]: And they tell you, basically, how fast the Internet is growing, and what is anticipated.
[13:56.290 --> 14:12.470]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, they say, the Internet domain survey of July 1993 shows 79% growth in Internet hosts in the year from July 1992, as discussed in Global Growth Rates, The Matrix, and The Internet, which is an article in this particular newsletter.
[14:12.470 --> 14:21.830]  [SPEAKER_04]: The October 1993 report shows 81% growth in hosts and 55% growth in domains from October 1992 to October 1993.
[14:23.090 --> 14:25.190]  [SPEAKER_04]: There's all kinds of different surveys.
[14:25.530 --> 14:27.610]  [SPEAKER_04]: Some show 110% growth.
[14:27.690 --> 14:28.530]  [SPEAKER_04]: Some show 65%.
[14:29.010 --> 14:30.570]  [SPEAKER_04]: Some show 59%.
[14:30.570 --> 14:38.230]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's basically varying depending on how you measure it, on what your particular sources are.
[14:38.230 --> 14:40.630]  [SPEAKER_04]: But I think everybody agrees it's growing pretty quickly.
[14:41.090 --> 14:47.290]  [SPEAKER_04]: The city of Austin, Texas, is ranked first among cities in the United States for economic growth for an annual rate of 12%.
[14:47.770 --> 14:54.750]  [SPEAKER_04]: Among nations, China is showing a similar growth rate of 12% to 13%, and astounding economists by doing so.
[14:55.010 --> 14:59.050]  [SPEAKER_04]: Compared to that level, a sustained growth rate of even 65% is remarkable.
[15:00.610 --> 15:08.010]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, the Internet is pretty remarkable, and it continues to grow, and we'll be seeing more evidence of that.
[15:08.090 --> 15:11.930]  [SPEAKER_04]: Now, something interesting happened on the Internet about a week or so ago.
[15:12.410 --> 15:16.330]  [SPEAKER_04]: And that was when 2600 had its first Internet meeting.
[15:16.550 --> 15:17.190]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, that's right.
[15:17.230 --> 15:21.230]  [SPEAKER_04]: The first virtual meeting of hackers around the world.
[15:21.230 --> 15:24.970]  [SPEAKER_04]: Actually, it's not entirely true, because hackers, of course, are meeting on the Internet constantly.
[15:25.270 --> 15:32.050]  [SPEAKER_04]: But this was the first time that 2600 Magazine jumped in and decided to have a meeting online to see what would happen.
[15:32.530 --> 15:33.730]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, it was crazy.
[15:33.950 --> 15:43.710]  [SPEAKER_04]: It was absolute mayhem and bedlam and all kinds of things like that, because whenever you plan something like this out, things are always going to go wrong.
[15:43.710 --> 15:44.530]  [SPEAKER_04]: And that's...
[15:44.530 --> 15:45.930]  [SPEAKER_04]: We couldn't have planned it better.
[15:46.070 --> 15:46.850]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's exactly what happened.
[15:48.650 --> 15:52.110]  [SPEAKER_04]: Basically, IRC is a program that runs on the Internet.
[15:52.110 --> 15:53.570]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's called Internet Relay Chat.
[15:53.570 --> 15:57.410]  [SPEAKER_04]: It allows people to link in from around the planet.
[15:57.410 --> 16:05.930]  [SPEAKER_04]: If you have access to IRC, and you can jack into the net, as it were, then you can talk to people that have done the same thing, no matter where they are.
[16:06.050 --> 16:19.270]  [SPEAKER_04]: And that was the idea behind this meeting, to get people on a particular day, and the day will always be on the 26th of the month, to get those people to be able to communicate with each other, regardless of geographic boundaries or anything like that.
[16:19.590 --> 16:27.590]  [SPEAKER_04]: And, of course, we don't have to judge people based on what they look like, what they sound like, just on what they type, and whatever name they happen to use.
[16:28.210 --> 16:29.910]  [SPEAKER_04]: So that was the idea behind it.
[16:30.010 --> 16:35.530]  [SPEAKER_04]: Now, to do this, you have to set up a particular area, an agreed-upon meeting space.
[16:35.530 --> 16:47.610]  [SPEAKER_04]: And that agreed-upon meeting space was the channel called 2600, and that's where everybody was instructed to show up any time between, I believe it was 12 noon, and whenever we decided to end the thing.
[16:48.290 --> 16:54.050]  [SPEAKER_04]: And so, that involves a bit of planning as far as, well, getting the room ready, sort of.
[16:54.150 --> 17:02.910]  [SPEAKER_04]: You have to make sure that that channel is there, that that channel has not been taken by somebody else, that there's things for people to do when they get to the channel.
[17:02.910 --> 17:07.310]  [SPEAKER_04]: You know, you can't just have, you know, anarchy when people check in.
[17:07.450 --> 17:09.710]  [SPEAKER_04]: There has to be some semblance of order.
[17:09.870 --> 17:12.530]  [SPEAKER_04]: But this is the Internet, and there is no real semblance of order.
[17:12.710 --> 17:17.130]  [SPEAKER_04]: Things kind of fall into chaos many times, but the chaos is not necessarily a bad thing.
[17:17.890 --> 17:21.030]  [SPEAKER_04]: Which is one of the things that we learned on that particular day.
[17:21.850 --> 17:23.950]  [SPEAKER_04]: 12 o'clock came around, and what happened?
[17:23.950 --> 17:35.770]  [SPEAKER_04]: The machine that we were running our computerized programs known as bots from, had crashed the night before, had crashed good for the first time in many months.
[17:35.770 --> 17:39.830]  [SPEAKER_04]: It was down for several hours, and of course we weren't able to get things ready on time.
[17:40.870 --> 17:45.210]  [SPEAKER_04]: So, noon rolled around, and that was just about the time the machine was coming back online.
[17:45.670 --> 17:50.690]  [SPEAKER_04]: There were about, oh, I'd say about 50 or so people already in the channel.
[17:51.250 --> 17:54.730]  [SPEAKER_04]: Which was kind of crazy, because the way we had planned it.
[17:54.790 --> 17:58.090]  [SPEAKER_04]: We had planned it so that we'd open the channel at a particular time.
[17:58.150 --> 18:04.770]  [SPEAKER_04]: But people just sort of found a way to open the channel on their own, and they were just sort of waiting for the rest of us when we finally showed up.
[18:04.790 --> 18:08.410]  [SPEAKER_04]: Which was all fine and good, but it was complete chaos, as I said.
[18:08.990 --> 18:10.490]  [SPEAKER_04]: We had no idea what was going on.
[18:10.570 --> 18:12.770]  [SPEAKER_04]: We didn't have access to the programs we wanted to run.
[18:12.770 --> 18:15.510]  [SPEAKER_04]: And so that slowly, slowly started to change.
[18:15.690 --> 18:20.330]  [SPEAKER_04]: We started to get access to the programs as that system, which had crashed, started to come back up.
[18:21.870 --> 18:26.130]  [SPEAKER_04]: And then we had an amazing turnout at the very beginning, within the first hour.
[18:26.270 --> 18:30.930]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'd say at one particular point in time there were 140 people on the same channel at the same time.
[18:31.550 --> 18:36.510]  [SPEAKER_04]: And I don't know if you've ever talked to 140 people at once on the screen.
[18:36.810 --> 18:39.970]  [SPEAKER_04]: It was... you didn't know what to expect.
[18:39.970 --> 18:43.750]  [SPEAKER_04]: Of course, you can send private messages to people, and they're not seen by everybody.
[18:44.190 --> 18:49.010]  [SPEAKER_04]: But having 140 people to deal with was really a job.
[18:49.430 --> 18:57.330]  [SPEAKER_04]: But you know, that combined with the thousand or so people that checked in over the next 18 hours, it worked out incredibly well.
[18:57.510 --> 19:01.030]  [SPEAKER_04]: There's this semblance of order that somehow takes over.
[19:01.030 --> 19:05.210]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's just kind of, I don't know, an instinct of some sort.
[19:05.330 --> 19:07.330]  [SPEAKER_04]: People migrate to other places.
[19:07.330 --> 19:11.090]  [SPEAKER_04]: They make their own rooms, and they go into those, and they talk to people they want to talk to.
[19:11.190 --> 19:12.750]  [SPEAKER_04]: They leave, they come back.
[19:13.450 --> 19:17.170]  [SPEAKER_04]: And things never really did go wrong in the worst-case scenario.
[19:17.490 --> 19:18.770]  [SPEAKER_04]: The network didn't break.
[19:19.470 --> 19:31.170]  [SPEAKER_04]: The channel wasn't taken over by evil people that were, you know, going to push their own propaganda or say bad things about hackers or things like that.
[19:31.370 --> 19:32.190]  [SPEAKER_04]: Never happened.
[19:32.410 --> 19:37.310]  [SPEAKER_04]: People just came in, and much like any other hacker meeting, they just communicated.
[19:37.890 --> 19:38.730]  [SPEAKER_04]: It was nice.
[19:38.990 --> 19:43.710]  [SPEAKER_04]: And hopefully that will work out even better in the future on the 26th of every month.
[19:43.850 --> 19:50.250]  [SPEAKER_04]: We're going to try to do it so that whenever it's the 26th, anywhere in the world, the meeting is actually happening.
[19:50.310 --> 20:00.670]  [SPEAKER_04]: In other words, wherever the day actually begins, which I guess is somewhere in Asia, Japan perhaps, when it's midnight on the 26th, that is when the meeting will officially start.
[20:00.670 --> 20:09.730]  [SPEAKER_04]: And when the 27th begins in the last possible place, which I guess would be Guam or something, then that's when the meeting will end.
[20:09.830 --> 20:11.090]  [SPEAKER_04]: And we'll do that once a month.
[20:11.090 --> 20:12.530]  [SPEAKER_04]: We'll have a virtual meeting.
[20:14.070 --> 20:18.990]  [SPEAKER_04]: And, you know, one of these days, that virtual meeting is going to occur on a Wednesday.
[20:19.950 --> 20:20.350]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[20:20.550 --> 20:26.730]  [SPEAKER_04]: So when that happens, it's going to be very interesting because we'll be on the radio and on the Internet at the same time.
[20:26.730 --> 20:33.470]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's something we want to try this year, getting WBAI onto the net and getting things rolling, as far as that kind of thing goes.
[20:34.730 --> 20:35.230]  [SPEAKER_04]: All right.
[20:36.030 --> 20:38.550]  [SPEAKER_04]: A couple other weird things happened over the past couple of weeks.
[20:38.990 --> 20:41.090]  [SPEAKER_04]: I got to play with a MetroCard for the first time.
[20:41.110 --> 20:44.330]  [SPEAKER_04]: Remember, we had this in the studio a few weeks ago.
[20:45.110 --> 20:46.110]  [SPEAKER_04]: First MetroCard ever.
[20:46.350 --> 20:48.530]  [SPEAKER_04]: And, you know, I had this MetroCard a few weeks ago.
[20:48.730 --> 20:50.430]  [SPEAKER_04]: And what did I do right after the program?
[20:50.990 --> 20:53.290]  [SPEAKER_04]: I went out and I used it.
[20:53.710 --> 20:54.110]  [SPEAKER_04]: Or...
[20:54.110 --> 20:54.730]  [SPEAKER_04]: No, no.
[20:54.830 --> 20:55.750]  [SPEAKER_04]: Correction is in order here.
[20:55.750 --> 20:57.410]  [SPEAKER_04]: I tried to use it.
[20:57.770 --> 20:58.050]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[20:58.350 --> 21:02.330]  [SPEAKER_04]: I went to a train station right here at 34th Street, 34th and 8th.
[21:02.710 --> 21:10.930]  [SPEAKER_04]: And thought it would be a good idea just, you know, put it in the machine and walk through, just as if we had always had a MetroCard system in this city.
[21:12.070 --> 21:13.250]  [SPEAKER_04]: And, of course, it didn't work.
[21:13.430 --> 21:14.510]  [SPEAKER_04]: And I had heard about this.
[21:14.550 --> 21:18.850]  [SPEAKER_04]: I knew that a lot of New Yorkers are guilty of swiping too fast.
[21:19.170 --> 21:21.010]  [SPEAKER_04]: So you have to swipe slowly.
[21:21.010 --> 21:25.770]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's not like DC where you just put the card in and it sucks it up for you and does all kinds of neat things.
[21:25.970 --> 21:26.910]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's not like that at all.
[21:27.070 --> 21:29.950]  [SPEAKER_04]: You have to swipe it at the right speed and make the machine happy.
[21:30.070 --> 21:31.430]  [SPEAKER_04]: So I swiped it.
[21:31.570 --> 21:32.730]  [SPEAKER_04]: I swiped it slow.
[21:33.390 --> 21:34.470]  [SPEAKER_04]: I swiped it fast.
[21:34.610 --> 21:35.550]  [SPEAKER_04]: I swiped it stationary.
[21:35.550 --> 21:38.350]  [SPEAKER_04]: I swiped it backwards and forwards and everything you could possibly imagine.
[21:38.470 --> 21:39.270]  [SPEAKER_04]: It did not work.
[21:39.710 --> 21:41.050]  [SPEAKER_04]: It did not work at all.
[21:41.770 --> 21:49.290]  [SPEAKER_04]: And so, you know, I looked at the person behind the desk there and just saw kind of a look of baffled confusion on their part.
[21:49.410 --> 21:55.050]  [SPEAKER_04]: So, you know, I wasn't in the mood for this, having paid $5 for this card in the first place.
[21:55.050 --> 21:57.410]  [SPEAKER_04]: So I did what any normal New Yorker would do.
[21:58.250 --> 22:03.890]  [SPEAKER_04]: And I went right over to turnstiles, which is incredible because I thought those turnstiles were supposed to prevent you from doing that but it didn't.
[22:03.990 --> 22:06.510]  [SPEAKER_04]: And I just went right over the thing and everybody there saw what I did.
[22:06.690 --> 22:09.070]  [SPEAKER_04]: I made no virons about this.
[22:09.290 --> 22:13.010]  [SPEAKER_04]: Everyone saw I was trying to pay, I was trying to use my card, it just wasn't not recognizing it it.
[22:13.010 --> 22:14.290]  [SPEAKER_04]: It wasn't saying I didn't have any money.
[22:14.430 --> 22:15.490]  [SPEAKER_04]: It wasn't recognizing it.
[22:15.670 --> 22:16.250]  [SPEAKER_04]: At all.
[22:16.390 --> 22:16.950]  [SPEAKER_04]: It didn't work.
[22:17.050 --> 22:17.810]  [SPEAKER_04]: The system was broken.
[22:19.230 --> 22:22.130]  [SPEAKER_04]: I tried to pay and it just didn't work and nobody knew how to deal with it.
[22:22.250 --> 22:29.930]  [SPEAKER_04]: So I went over and everybody pretty much agreed that was a thing to do, except, for these two cops that were two platforms away.
[22:30.090 --> 22:38.130]  [SPEAKER_04]: Now, the way that station is mapped out, you have 1 platform, then you have some tracks, another platform, some more tracks, and then another platform.
[22:38.270 --> 22:39.830]  [SPEAKER_04]: And that's where they were, all the way on the other end.
[22:40.110 --> 22:44.390]  [SPEAKER_04]: And they were sort of saying to me, you know, that's illegal what you just did.
[22:44.450 --> 23:04.210]  [SPEAKER_04]: We were having this long extended conversation while I was explaining to them and waving my fair card and saying, look, it doesn't work, over four tracks and two platforms, And it got very difficult, and after a while, I just sort of, you know, gave up on the conversation and expected them to sort of go through the tunnel and arrest me or maybe call up on the payphone next to me and yell at me a
[23:04.210 --> 23:04.630]  [SPEAKER_04]: little bit more.
[23:04.850 --> 23:05.770]  [SPEAKER_04]: But it never happened.
[23:05.790 --> 23:06.950]  [SPEAKER_04]: I still have this fare card.
[23:06.990 --> 23:07.790]  [SPEAKER_04]: I still haven't used it.
[23:07.850 --> 23:08.550]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm trying to use it.
[23:08.670 --> 23:11.310]  [SPEAKER_04]: But for now, I have to say the system is terrible.
[23:11.570 --> 23:13.370]  [SPEAKER_04]: The system does not work very well at all.
[23:14.490 --> 23:17.270]  [SPEAKER_04]: We'll just have to experiment some more and see what happens.
[23:17.270 --> 23:21.410]  [SPEAKER_04]: For one thing, on this card, there is no proof that I spent $5 on it.
[23:21.490 --> 23:22.170]  [SPEAKER_04]: No proof at all.
[23:22.750 --> 23:27.450]  [SPEAKER_04]: So when I walk up to somebody and say, hey, the system doesn't work, well, how are they going to believe me?
[23:27.510 --> 23:29.230]  [SPEAKER_04]: How are they going to believe how much is on this card?
[23:29.790 --> 23:31.930]  [SPEAKER_04]: I know there's $5 on it, but nobody else does.
[23:32.810 --> 23:36.210]  [SPEAKER_04]: So it's not something I recommend, at least not now.
[23:37.390 --> 23:39.330]  [SPEAKER_04]: Tokens, at least you know what you paid for them.
[23:41.170 --> 23:45.550]  [SPEAKER_04]: All right, now to the prison news, which is always bad, of course.
[23:47.250 --> 23:50.290]  [SPEAKER_04]: We do have an update from Phiber Optik, a.k.a. Mark.
[23:51.030 --> 23:52.590]  [SPEAKER_04]: Actually, I guess I should say that the other way around.
[23:53.410 --> 23:55.490]  [SPEAKER_04]: And then we'll be taking phone calls after that.
[23:55.490 --> 24:14.730]  [SPEAKER_04]: But before we get into Phiber, I'd like to read you something that I got concerning another prisoner, who you know as Scorpion, Paul Stira, who got into a bit of trouble because, well, first of all, his name showed up in 2600 magazine, this issue, so that he would be able to get some mail.
[24:14.750 --> 24:15.790]  [SPEAKER_04]: They didn't like that at all.
[24:15.910 --> 24:20.450]  [SPEAKER_04]: They don't like it when people get lots of mail or get their names printed in magazines.
[24:20.450 --> 24:24.430]  [SPEAKER_04]: But it was his choice, and we believe he has every right to do that.
[24:24.570 --> 24:30.010]  [SPEAKER_04]: And he says he's getting mail at least one piece a day, and it's keeping his sanity, and that's the important thing.
[24:30.510 --> 24:36.870]  [SPEAKER_04]: And I know that Phiber is getting mail, too, and that's keeping his sanity, and that's about all you can hope for when you're in prison.
[24:37.390 --> 24:40.390]  [SPEAKER_04]: Listen to this letter that we got, though, from the Federal Bureau of Prisons.
[24:42.650 --> 24:54.610]  [SPEAKER_04]: We sent Paul, Scorpion, a whole lot of copies of 2600 magazine because that's what he was interested in reading, and we thought it would make the days go by.
[24:54.750 --> 25:02.990]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, the prison people didn't agree, and they sent the letter to Paul saying the following.
[25:03.750 --> 25:13.410]  [SPEAKER_04]: 21 incoming publications, 21, that's about all the ones we sent them, titled 2600, addressed to you, have been found to contain objectionable material.
[25:13.750 --> 25:18.750]  [SPEAKER_04]: The decision has been made that this material would be detrimental to the security and good order of the institution.
[25:19.250 --> 25:26.930]  [SPEAKER_04]: Specifically, the publications contain information which could possibly compromise the integrity of USP Lewisburg's computer operations.
[25:27.090 --> 25:32.330]  [SPEAKER_04]: In view of the foregoing, the publications must be rejected as being a threat to the security and good order of the institution.
[25:32.330 --> 25:35.570]  [SPEAKER_04]: The sender is being informed that the publications are being rejected.
[25:35.930 --> 25:42.750]  [SPEAKER_04]: Now, they sent us a similar kind of a letter, along with a copy of that letter, telling us that we had every right to have an independent review.
[25:43.030 --> 25:44.230]  [SPEAKER_04]: Now, here's the weird part.
[25:44.590 --> 25:47.710]  [SPEAKER_04]: This happens every single time we have a problem with the prison system.
[25:48.070 --> 25:54.690]  [SPEAKER_04]: The letter is dated January 12th, and in this letter, dated January 12th, they tell us we have 15 days to appeal this.
[25:54.850 --> 26:01.110]  [SPEAKER_04]: However, the letter was mailed, and we know this from the postmark on the envelope, the letter was mailed on January 24th.
[26:01.110 --> 26:04.090]  [SPEAKER_04]: 12 days after the letter was written.
[26:04.410 --> 26:09.230]  [SPEAKER_04]: Now, the letter says you have 15 days from now to respond.
[26:09.530 --> 26:11.870]  [SPEAKER_04]: Otherwise, the magazines will be sent back to you.
[26:12.030 --> 26:17.130]  [SPEAKER_04]: So, obviously, they don't intend to let people actually respond.
[26:17.610 --> 26:22.850]  [SPEAKER_04]: Now, this has happened to us before, where we've had our magazine rejected, and we've sent this letter out.
[26:22.850 --> 26:29.510]  [SPEAKER_04]: And both times, they've dated the letter about 12 days before they send out the actual letter.
[26:29.650 --> 26:31.290]  [SPEAKER_04]: So, we'll see what happens.
[26:31.370 --> 26:40.610]  [SPEAKER_04]: We'll see if they actually allow us to appeal, and if we can find out exactly what it is they find so objectionable in every single one of the issues that we sent out.
[26:41.030 --> 26:46.230]  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, we very rarely deal with prison systems or prison computers or anything like that.
[26:46.230 --> 26:47.890]  [SPEAKER_04]: So, we'll keep you updated on that.
[26:49.210 --> 26:54.390]  [SPEAKER_04]: We also heard from another prisoner known as Acid Freak who's generally doing all right.
[26:56.430 --> 27:00.990]  [SPEAKER_04]: See, prisoners do have a lot of problems that we just don't think of.
[27:01.030 --> 27:06.850]  [SPEAKER_04]: For instance, they're assigned a particular job, and they have to do this job every single day.
[27:08.270 --> 27:16.710]  [SPEAKER_04]: Now, in at least one of these cases, one of our friends was stricken with the flu, and they were taken to the doctor, and the doctor said, get lots of rest.
[27:17.150 --> 27:21.130]  [SPEAKER_04]: And the warden said, you have to go to work, and you can't get lots of rest.
[27:21.190 --> 27:32.650]  [SPEAKER_04]: And so, these people have to go to work when they're sick in bed, when they have the flu, when they have fevers of 101, they still have to do their job, so to say, as important as it might be.
[27:33.670 --> 27:38.270]  [SPEAKER_04]: So, that's the kind of thing we're dealing with here, the stupidity of the bureaucracy.
[27:38.950 --> 27:39.590]  [SPEAKER_04]: All right.
[27:40.130 --> 27:48.490]  [SPEAKER_04]: Without further ado, let's listen to Phiber Optik, see how he's doing, and then we'll take some phone calls at 212-279-3400.
[27:49.150 --> 27:52.750]  [SPEAKER_03]: So, Mark, how are things working out for you over there in prison?
[27:53.250 --> 28:00.890]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, I'm trying to adjust as best I can, and I'm hanging around with some good people.
[28:00.890 --> 28:05.390]  [SPEAKER_10]: The important thing is talking with people.
[28:05.610 --> 28:09.630]  [SPEAKER_10]: There's some good, friendly people here, despite what one might think.
[28:11.990 --> 28:21.570]  [SPEAKER_10]: And a lot of the time, I'll just sit around and smoke cigarettes and chat with people, and it helps time go easier, rather than just keeping to yourself and going crazy.
[28:22.830 --> 28:24.830]  [SPEAKER_10]: What kind of people are there with you?
[28:24.830 --> 28:24.890]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
[28:25.430 --> 28:30.450]  [SPEAKER_10]: There's people here of all ages, from, like, late teens to, like, 70s.
[28:31.110 --> 28:33.930]  [SPEAKER_10]: And people are here for assorted reasons.
[28:34.210 --> 28:37.510]  [SPEAKER_10]: There's people here for embezzlement, financial crimes.
[28:37.810 --> 28:42.090]  [SPEAKER_10]: And there's people here for small amounts of drug possession, too.
[28:43.750 --> 28:47.070]  [SPEAKER_10]: Can you describe what a typical day consists of?
[28:47.870 --> 28:49.930]  [SPEAKER_10]: Um, it depends.
[28:50.390 --> 28:54.990]  [SPEAKER_10]: But, um, basically there's something like about five counts every day.
[28:55.730 --> 29:01.450]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, um, one of those, the one at 415, is a formal count where you actually have to be in your cube.
[29:02.470 --> 29:07.910]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, um, the other one is basically you just be in one of the TV rooms or in your cube.
[29:07.910 --> 29:08.890]  [SPEAKER_10]: It doesn't matter.
[29:09.070 --> 29:10.110]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's an informal count.
[29:11.130 --> 29:16.790]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, uh, so you're constantly aware of the counts during the course of the day.
[29:17.430 --> 29:23.630]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, um, you might be watching some TV, or if you bother to get up at 6 in the morning, you might eat breakfast.
[29:24.150 --> 29:28.390]  [SPEAKER_10]: The meals are at very odd times, and I have a lot of trouble dealing with it.
[29:28.670 --> 29:35.550]  [SPEAKER_10]: Because breakfast is at 6 a.m., lunch is at quarter to 11, and dinner is right after the 415 count.
[29:36.830 --> 29:40.790]  [SPEAKER_10]: So, like, unless you actually buy food in the commissary, you're going to be hungry a lot of the time.
[29:42.650 --> 29:48.550]  [SPEAKER_03]: Now, what kind of things are they making you do as far as any kind of, uh, job or chore or things like that?
[29:48.550 --> 29:52.010]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, the job I got assigned is in a place called the Powerhouse.
[29:52.450 --> 29:57.310]  [SPEAKER_10]: And it's basically where, um, there's, um, gas...
[29:57.310 --> 30:02.130]  [SPEAKER_10]: They use natural gas to heat the buildings and to, uh, heat for hot water and stuff.
[30:02.930 --> 30:10.150]  [SPEAKER_10]: So, um, I'm thinking of changing it because it's horribly noisy there, and there's all these caustic chemicals laying around that make me really nervous.
[30:10.770 --> 30:15.950]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, um, basically, uh, I have to, I, I, well, I don't have to.
[30:16.070 --> 30:17.290]  [SPEAKER_10]: I'm there with, like, a couple other people.
[30:17.710 --> 30:18.990]  [SPEAKER_10]: But I read gauges.
[30:19.310 --> 30:20.690]  [SPEAKER_10]: I basically read meters.
[30:21.110 --> 30:23.230]  [SPEAKER_10]: The meters have to be read once in an hour and logged.
[30:25.110 --> 30:27.990]  [SPEAKER_03]: So that's about as close to, uh, technology as you get, right?
[30:28.230 --> 30:29.450]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, pretty much.
[30:29.870 --> 30:30.890]  [SPEAKER_03]: Are you getting much mail?
[30:30.890 --> 30:37.150]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, I, uh, I appreciate all the mail I've been receiving and books and magazines and stuff, too.
[30:37.310 --> 30:41.950]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's been keeping me in good spirits so much so that I look forward to getting mail.
[30:42.090 --> 30:48.610]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's, like, the high point of the day is mail call because, uh, I've pretty much gotten mail every day.
[30:49.270 --> 30:50.750]  [SPEAKER_10]: So it's something to look forward to.
[30:50.930 --> 30:54.410]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's sort of, uh, you know, my, my tie back home.
[30:54.970 --> 30:55.490]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh-huh.
[30:55.490 --> 30:59.910]  [SPEAKER_10]: Sort of, uh, my connection to the real world, so to speak.
[30:59.910 --> 31:03.370]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I guess a lot of other people don't have that, that good fortune.
[31:03.790 --> 31:03.970]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[31:05.850 --> 31:07.950]  [SPEAKER_03]: Now, uh, can you just clear one thing up?
[31:08.230 --> 31:12.510]  [SPEAKER_03]: Um, there's a lot of talk as to what exactly happened after we dropped you off that time.
[31:12.590 --> 31:14.810]  [SPEAKER_03]: Can you just, um, tell us exactly what did happen?
[31:15.110 --> 31:16.730]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, it wasn't, it wasn't very pleasant.
[31:17.230 --> 31:25.190]  [SPEAKER_10]: Um, I got strip searched and, uh, all my, uh, what little property I had on me was taken away, including, like, clothing and things.
[31:25.910 --> 31:35.250]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, uh, apparently what they didn't inform us when we called on the phone was that, um, no one is here to process you on the weekend if you're a new inmate.
[31:35.510 --> 31:38.910]  [SPEAKER_10]: So they threw me in segregation, which is better known as The Hole.
[31:39.930 --> 31:44.130]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, uh, it was pretty miserable for about a day and a half.
[31:45.130 --> 32:06.950]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, um, they, you're basically alone in a small cell with the bed and one of these stainless steel combination sink toilet things that freezes your ass when you flush the toilet because there's no toilet seat or anything and, uh, a piece of polished metal,
[32:07.210 --> 32:11.690]  [SPEAKER_10]: which, uh, I would assume is supposed to be a mirror, and, uh, a little else, that's about it.
[32:12.750 --> 32:13.450]  [SPEAKER_10]: No windows?
[32:14.130 --> 32:24.550]  [SPEAKER_10]: There's, uh, something that resembles a window with, uh, thick metal bars on it, and you have a nice view of the, uh, barbed wire fence right outside with the, uh, spotlight.
[32:27.010 --> 32:27.670]  [SPEAKER_10]: I see.
[32:28.010 --> 32:29.570]  [SPEAKER_03]: And how long were you in there for?
[32:29.810 --> 32:30.990]  [SPEAKER_10]: About, about a day and a half.
[32:31.930 --> 32:33.230]  [SPEAKER_10]: Until, uh, Monday morning.
[32:33.390 --> 32:34.490]  [SPEAKER_10]: This was pretty much the whole weekend.
[32:34.910 --> 32:36.630]  [SPEAKER_03]: And did they tell you why they were putting you there?
[32:37.010 --> 32:38.750]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, not, not specifically, no.
[32:40.930 --> 32:43.190]  [SPEAKER_03]: So, um, what happened after that?
[32:43.590 --> 32:49.870]  [SPEAKER_10]: On Monday morning when I was still there, when I got up, I tried to eat some breakfast, and the food down there was incredibly bad.
[32:50.610 --> 32:54.470]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, um, whether it was nerves or just, well, I'm sure it was nerves.
[32:54.790 --> 33:01.230]  [SPEAKER_10]: And a combination of that and just bad food and stuff, I just puked all over the place right before I left.
[33:01.570 --> 33:03.250]  [SPEAKER_10]: So it was good that I got that into my system.
[33:03.970 --> 33:07.050]  [SPEAKER_03]: And also sort of left behind the calling card of sorts, I guess.
[33:07.270 --> 33:07.850]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, basically.
[33:07.910 --> 33:11.430]  [SPEAKER_10]: So then they took me out and they gave me a change of clothing.
[33:11.690 --> 33:13.570]  [SPEAKER_10]: It was more suited for where I was going.
[33:13.730 --> 33:15.450]  [SPEAKER_10]: And they pretty much, uh, drove me up the road.
[33:16.090 --> 33:17.550]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, uh, I checked in here.
[33:18.270 --> 33:27.690]  [SPEAKER_10]: And then what happened at night was, um, I had a serious nervous attack or anxiety attack, whatever you want to call it.
[33:28.570 --> 33:30.950]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, um, I just felt really faint.
[33:31.330 --> 33:37.190]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, uh, I was getting, uh, like pins and needles and, like, cramps in my hands and arms and stuff.
[33:37.190 --> 33:39.810]  [SPEAKER_10]: And I felt like I was going to pass out just from stress.
[33:40.610 --> 33:49.310]  [SPEAKER_10]: So, uh, a bunch of guys, like, uh, they called one of the guards and they, uh, helped me down to the, uh, to the doctor.
[33:49.810 --> 33:54.210]  [SPEAKER_10]: And the doctor gave me, uh, something to calm me down, some liquid sedative or something.
[33:54.610 --> 33:56.810]  [SPEAKER_10]: And I kind of felt, uh, better after that.
[33:57.910 --> 34:01.790]  [SPEAKER_10]: And it was, it was then that I came to realize that people were generally friendly.
[34:03.030 --> 34:08.750]  [SPEAKER_10]: You know, there's sort of this camaraderie almost between, uh, a lot of the inmates.
[34:08.930 --> 34:15.450]  [SPEAKER_10]: Like, they'll help you out and show you the ropes and sort of get you going and try to, uh, alleviate your stress and stuff.
[34:15.670 --> 34:18.530]  [SPEAKER_10]: Because everyone pretty much just wants to go home too.
[34:19.870 --> 34:28.190]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, uh, majority of people don't want any trouble with anyone else because they don't want to get into trouble and get thrown in the hole for violence or anything like that.
[34:28.590 --> 34:29.030]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh-huh.
[34:29.750 --> 34:34.450]  [SPEAKER_03]: Now, um, uh, is there any kind of disciplinary thing that, that you have to abide by?
[34:34.630 --> 34:37.270]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, no, you have to keep your, your, your cubicle clean.
[34:37.810 --> 34:38.050]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
[34:38.430 --> 34:39.530]  [SPEAKER_10]: There's, uh, there's that.
[34:40.050 --> 34:48.310]  [SPEAKER_10]: There's, um, basically not interfering with any of the counts, which, uh, can be a severe thing.
[34:49.230 --> 34:57.150]  [SPEAKER_10]: There's, um, being careful about what you talk about on the phone because they're obviously monitored and they record everything.
[34:57.150 --> 35:00.090]  [SPEAKER_03]: Do they say what, uh, what we're not supposed to talk about?
[35:01.110 --> 35:02.490]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's never really been specific.
[35:02.490 --> 35:08.010]  [SPEAKER_10]: What they have said is that they don't want you to carry business, to carry on business, over the phone.
[35:08.930 --> 35:15.750]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's basically one of the reasons they got this inmate telethon system was that, uh, people were just, you know, running illegal rackets out of prison.
[35:16.970 --> 35:18.630]  [SPEAKER_10]: So they pretty much spoiled it for everyone.
[35:19.490 --> 35:21.850]  [SPEAKER_10]: And they don't want people conducting business over the phone.
[35:22.410 --> 35:25.130]  [SPEAKER_10]: Can you very quickly describe the phone system, how it works?
[35:25.690 --> 35:30.870]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, well, basically we're all assigned nine-digit PAC codes, phone access codes.
[35:31.950 --> 35:38.930]  [SPEAKER_10]: And the first, the, what, you have to submit a list of a maximum of 20 phone numbers, which you're authorized to call.
[35:39.870 --> 35:40.790]  [SPEAKER_10]: And that's it.
[35:41.290 --> 35:57.210]  [SPEAKER_10]: And, um, as soon as they get activated, which can take anywhere from a couple of days to a couple of weeks, then, um, for the first seven days, when you, you, when you first get here and your phone is activated, your, your PAC code, you can make collect calls only and only to those numbers.
[35:57.790 --> 36:04.270]  [SPEAKER_10]: And after that seven-day period is expired, you, uh, have to make sure that, um, if you came in with money, then that's good.
[36:04.550 --> 36:12.730]  [SPEAKER_10]: You could put, um, phone credits, when you go to the commissary, you can put phone credits in one dollar increments towards, towards your phone usage.
[36:13.870 --> 36:20.670]  [SPEAKER_10]: And local calls, local, as far as, like, calling New York and surrounding states, it's roughly twenty-three cents a minute.
[36:22.550 --> 36:24.630]  [SPEAKER_03]: And you only have a fifteen-minute limit, isn't it, right?
[36:24.690 --> 36:25.890]  [SPEAKER_03]: Fifteen limit for every call.
[36:26.290 --> 36:28.170]  [SPEAKER_03]: In fact, we're, we're fast approaching that right now.
[36:28.430 --> 36:32.050]  [SPEAKER_10]: You just, pretty much, you get a one-minute warning, and then you just turn, your call's terminated.
[36:32.310 --> 36:32.610]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh-huh.
[36:33.090 --> 36:35.930]  [SPEAKER_10]: And you can check your, uh, balance when it works.
[36:35.950 --> 36:38.510]  [SPEAKER_10]: I was saying before, I just tried to check my balance, and nothing happened.
[36:38.830 --> 36:39.310]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh-huh.
[36:39.350 --> 36:43.530]  [SPEAKER_10]: The phone system is, uh, rather poor and unreliable at best.
[36:43.950 --> 36:44.190]  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh-huh.
[36:44.690 --> 36:54.370]  [SPEAKER_03]: Now, um, we have to, um, of course, keep, uh, keep you supplied in phone credits by sending, uh, money orders to you so that you're able to, to call us back.
[36:54.650 --> 36:57.950]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that and, uh, so I can shop at the commissary.
[36:58.030 --> 36:58.270]  [SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[36:58.570 --> 37:00.950]  [SPEAKER_10]: Pretty much to buy food and, and cigarettes.
[37:01.150 --> 37:02.770]  [SPEAKER_03]: And you get to do that once, uh, once a week.
[37:02.810 --> 37:03.890]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, once a week I can do that.
[37:04.310 --> 37:07.310]  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, we'll, we'll get out the information as to how exactly to do that.
[37:07.810 --> 37:12.730]  [SPEAKER_03]: Um, just, we're about to get cut off, um, in about a minute or so.
[37:13.290 --> 37:17.310]  [SPEAKER_03]: Um, is there anything else that you wanted to, um, to say to people out there?
[37:17.970 --> 37:28.090]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, just that I'm doing okay and I look forward to the day when I could be back there in the studio and, uh, tell everyone my story.
[37:28.990 --> 37:30.990]  [SPEAKER_03]: When, uh, when do you think that day is?
[37:31.090 --> 37:32.290]  [SPEAKER_03]: Have they given you an exact...
[37:32.290 --> 37:33.430]  [SPEAKER_03]: That's, that's the warning.
[37:33.570 --> 37:34.230]  [SPEAKER_03]: We have a one minute warning.
[37:34.230 --> 37:34.690]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[37:34.690 --> 37:36.990]  [SPEAKER_03]: We'll get one more warning, I think, when there's ten seconds left.
[37:37.310 --> 37:37.410]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[37:37.770 --> 37:40.090]  [SPEAKER_03]: Um, would they give you an idea, an idea when that date is?
[37:40.270 --> 37:43.810]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, it's probably gonna be sometime in November, if not sooner.
[37:44.010 --> 37:47.450]  [SPEAKER_10]: Like, if I manage to get halfway house, which I don't know if I'll accept or not.
[37:47.590 --> 37:49.750]  [SPEAKER_10]: If I even get it, it's not very good.
[37:50.170 --> 37:54.110]  [SPEAKER_10]: But, um, I get something like 54 days off for good behavior.
[37:54.110 --> 37:56.410]  [SPEAKER_10]: So it would be, it would fall sometime in November.
[37:57.210 --> 37:58.310]  [SPEAKER_10]: Seems so far away.
[37:58.390 --> 37:59.010]  [SPEAKER_03]: November, yeah.
[38:00.010 --> 38:02.430]  [SPEAKER_03]: But, uh, we'll be literally counting the days.
[38:03.430 --> 38:03.710]  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[38:03.710 --> 38:05.530]  [SPEAKER_03]: And, uh, they're literally counting the seconds.
[38:06.570 --> 38:09.750]  [SPEAKER_03]: All right, well, um, it's, it's always good talking to you.
[38:10.190 --> 38:10.230]  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[38:10.230 --> 38:13.270]  [SPEAKER_03]: And, um, we'll, uh, we'll be in touch with you again real soon.
[38:31.930 --> 39:04.750]  [SPEAKER_21]: For you whose eyes were open wide Wise mind refused to see I'm sore in need of saving grace Be kind and humor me I'm lost amidst the sea of wheat Where people speak, but seldom meet.
[39:05.270 --> 39:09.520]  [SPEAKER_24]: And grief and love is strange but true.
[39:10.980 --> 39:15.640]  [SPEAKER_24]: Although they die, they seldom...
[39:21.660 --> 39:26.640]  [SPEAKER_21]: And oh, by any other name, yeah.
[39:27.460 --> 39:30.980]  [SPEAKER_21]: I know I might read more sweet.
[39:32.620 --> 39:42.180]  [SPEAKER_21]: Perhaps the sun will never shine upon my field of wheat.
[39:43.400 --> 39:53.880]  [SPEAKER_21]: But still in closing, let me say, For those too sick, yeah, too sick, too sick.
[39:54.600 --> 39:59.320]  [SPEAKER_24]: Though knowledge shows, yeah, someone knows.
[40:15.240 --> 40:18.180]  [SPEAKER_04]: And you are listening to Off the Hook here on WBAI New York.
[40:18.320 --> 40:24.920]  [SPEAKER_04]: We were just listening to Phiber Optik, an interview from prison in School Kill.
[40:25.020 --> 40:38.480]  [SPEAKER_04]: In fact, we're going to give out his address right now and urge our listeners that recognize the sound of his voice and have learned a thing or two from him in the past to take a little bit of time and write to him.
[40:38.620 --> 40:43.100]  [SPEAKER_04]: Because as he said, mail call is probably the highlight of the day.
[40:44.180 --> 40:49.740]  [SPEAKER_04]: And you never know how important that is until you're either in the army or in a prison somewhere.
[40:50.180 --> 40:53.000]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's an interesting parallel, and I'm sure it's been drawn before.
[40:53.360 --> 40:54.460]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, this is the address.
[40:54.460 --> 40:57.340]  [SPEAKER_04]: Please write it down and let other people know about it as well.
[40:57.340 --> 41:00.420]  [SPEAKER_04]: The name is Mark, M-A-R-K-A-B-E-N-E.
[41:00.580 --> 41:02.520]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's A-B-E-N-E.
[41:02.980 --> 41:12.260]  [SPEAKER_04]: And on the same line, because right now that is part of his name, the number is 3-2-1-0-9-0-5-4.
[41:12.460 --> 41:17.280]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's 3-2-1-0-9-0-5-4.
[41:18.380 --> 41:32.460]  [SPEAKER_04]: And on the next line, F-P-C, as in Federal Prison Camp, comma, School Kill, which is spelled S-C-H-U-Y-L-K-I-L-L.
[41:33.200 --> 41:35.760]  [SPEAKER_04]: And next line, Unit 1.
[41:36.460 --> 41:37.980]  [SPEAKER_04]: Next line, P.O. Box 6-7-0.
[41:40.660 --> 41:54.520]  [SPEAKER_04]: And finally, Minersville, that's M-I-N-E-R-S-V-I-L-L-E, Pennsylvania, zip code 179-5-4-0-6-7-0.
[41:55.840 --> 42:16.540]  [SPEAKER_04]: And again, if you can, if it's possible, to contribute to the, I guess, phone account or commissary account or what have you so that he'd be able to keep in touch with us and others as well and buy things in the commissary.
[42:16.680 --> 42:19.620]  [SPEAKER_04]: Once a week, he gets to go to the commissary and buy things.
[42:19.840 --> 42:31.360]  [SPEAKER_04]: And of course, it's kind of like being in the village, you know, in the prisoner where you buy things that you've never heard of before that are only made in one particular part of the world and are probably inferior to what you're used to.
[42:32.200 --> 42:33.280]  [SPEAKER_04]: But it's a privilege.
[42:33.280 --> 42:34.440]  [SPEAKER_04]: You can only do it once a week.
[42:34.660 --> 42:36.460]  [SPEAKER_04]: And you can only do it if you have money in your account.
[42:36.600 --> 42:47.760]  [SPEAKER_04]: So if you want to contribute to his account, send a money order to that same address and address put on the name of the money order, his full name plus the prisoner number.
[42:48.360 --> 42:55.600]  [SPEAKER_04]: And that way, he will ensure that his life will be a little bit easier.
[42:55.820 --> 42:55.960]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[42:56.640 --> 42:57.840]  [SPEAKER_04]: Let's take some phone calls.
[42:57.960 --> 43:01.620]  [SPEAKER_04]: 212-279-3400.
[43:01.760 --> 43:02.800]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's our telephone number.
[43:03.340 --> 43:05.080]  [SPEAKER_04]: And we're talking about...
[43:05.080 --> 43:14.360]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, I guess we're talking about this sad aspect of the whole hacker world and as well as other forms of technology that we've been talking about before.
[43:14.360 --> 43:16.320]  [SPEAKER_04]: The carrier access code is going to be changing.
[43:17.260 --> 43:23.680]  [SPEAKER_04]: New York City is being met with a new system of mass transit.
[43:24.120 --> 43:26.340]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's going to be an interesting next couple of...
[43:27.660 --> 43:30.120]  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know, months, years, what have you.
[43:31.000 --> 43:32.420]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's going to be interesting, that's for sure.
[43:33.140 --> 43:36.780]  [SPEAKER_04]: So stay tuned to Off the Hook.
[43:36.920 --> 43:39.940]  [SPEAKER_04]: We'll be bringing you information as we get it.
[43:42.320 --> 43:44.460]  [SPEAKER_04]: 212-279-3400 is our phone number.
[43:44.840 --> 43:45.640]  [SPEAKER_04]: 1 p.m.
[43:45.820 --> 43:47.120]  [SPEAKER_04]: and after lunch from 2 p.m.
[43:47.120 --> 43:48.860]  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know what that is.
[43:48.940 --> 43:49.160]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[43:50.680 --> 43:51.700]  [SPEAKER_04]: Let's pick up this line.
[43:51.780 --> 43:52.080]  [SPEAKER_04]: Good morning.
[43:52.640 --> 43:53.520]  [SPEAKER_13]: Hello, is this off the hook?
[43:53.620 --> 43:54.320]  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, good afternoon.
[43:54.620 --> 43:55.520]  [SPEAKER_04]: No, good evening.
[43:55.860 --> 43:56.860]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm in the right place.
[43:57.220 --> 43:57.720]  [SPEAKER_04]: Go ahead.
[43:57.860 --> 43:58.820]  [SPEAKER_13]: I just had a couple of questions.
[43:58.900 --> 43:59.040]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah.
[43:59.040 --> 44:07.380]  [SPEAKER_13]: Let's say a BBS caller decided that, like a long-distance caller decided to set up an 800 or reroute an 800 number to the BBS.
[44:07.780 --> 44:13.840]  [SPEAKER_13]: And, like, because he was tired of paying long-distance calls, and a lot of people used it, and the numbers spread around.
[44:14.040 --> 44:15.680]  [SPEAKER_13]: Would the system operator be liable?
[44:16.740 --> 44:19.800]  [SPEAKER_04]: This sounds like a hypothetical question, and I hope it is.
[44:20.380 --> 44:21.880]  [SPEAKER_04]: Would the system operator be liable?
[44:21.960 --> 44:22.440]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, it depends.
[44:22.560 --> 44:24.620]  [SPEAKER_04]: Did the system operator know about this?
[44:26.100 --> 44:29.020]  [SPEAKER_04]: Was the system operator part of this alleged conspiracy?
[44:29.360 --> 44:29.480]  [SPEAKER_04]: No.
[44:30.080 --> 44:31.100]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, then how could he be liable?
[44:31.220 --> 44:37.680]  [SPEAKER_04]: If you route an 800 number to somebody's house, and people call that person at the house, well, no.
[44:38.520 --> 44:40.780]  [SPEAKER_04]: They have no knowledge of it, so they're not liable.
[44:40.920 --> 44:54.480]  [SPEAKER_04]: And I've seen this kind of thing happen before, where people route things that are popular through 800 numbers, and, you know, it's not a legal thing to do, obviously, if nobody intends on paying for those calls.
[44:54.620 --> 44:56.200]  [SPEAKER_22]: System operator wouldn't be liable.
[44:56.420 --> 45:00.060]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, no, because the billing number is not the same as the N number in this case.
[45:00.200 --> 45:06.820]  [SPEAKER_04]: It used to be that 800 numbers always routed to the billing number, but these days, you can have an 800 number route any place you want.
[45:06.980 --> 45:16.260]  [SPEAKER_04]: In fact, I'm still waiting, and I said this a couple of years ago, I'm still waiting for a rich person somewhere to route an 800 number to the White House, so that people can call the White House for free, and the rich person would pay the bill.
[45:17.480 --> 45:18.260]  [SPEAKER_04]: Hasn't happened yet.
[45:19.680 --> 45:23.400]  [SPEAKER_04]: But, no, the person is not liable unless they're part of that particular plan.
[45:23.400 --> 45:26.180]  [SPEAKER_04]: And the person who is liable, though, is the person that set up the service.
[45:27.180 --> 45:29.600]  [SPEAKER_04]: And the person who provided billing information.
[45:30.660 --> 45:35.680]  [SPEAKER_13]: If it was set up from a payphone with all false information, no one would...
[45:36.440 --> 45:44.160]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, if a phone company is dumb enough to actually accept information from a payphone that's fake, then I guess the phone company is the one that winds up being liable.
[45:45.020 --> 45:46.040]  [SPEAKER_13]: Also, one other question.
[45:46.220 --> 45:47.780]  [SPEAKER_13]: What's up with that free phone thing?
[45:48.360 --> 45:49.480]  [SPEAKER_13]: I've heard a lot about it.
[45:49.560 --> 45:50.320]  [SPEAKER_13]: I've called up.
[45:50.320 --> 45:53.540]  [SPEAKER_13]: But is it, like, is it bogus or is it real?
[45:55.280 --> 45:56.840]  [SPEAKER_13]: They really need to make calls.
[45:57.660 --> 45:59.300]  [SPEAKER_04]: You'll have to describe the system to me.
[45:59.480 --> 46:02.720]  [SPEAKER_13]: It was listed in your latest 2600 magazine.
[46:02.900 --> 46:04.140]  [SPEAKER_13]: I believe Whistler wrote the letter.
[46:04.400 --> 46:07.920]  [SPEAKER_13]: And what it was was a service, I believe it was in New Jersey, that you call up.
[46:08.240 --> 46:11.760]  [SPEAKER_13]: And from what they said, you hook up with their service.
[46:11.760 --> 46:15.340]  [SPEAKER_13]: So you dial that carrier access code for them before you dial the number.
[46:15.540 --> 46:19.200]  [SPEAKER_13]: And any number you dial using their access code, they pay you.
[46:19.200 --> 46:21.280]  [SPEAKER_13]: They give you money back for dialing the numbers.
[46:22.080 --> 46:25.220]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, that's something that I'm very doubtful of.
[46:25.540 --> 46:30.300]  [SPEAKER_04]: And, you know, it's the only way to really know if something like that is on the level is to try it out.
[46:30.420 --> 46:32.620]  [SPEAKER_04]: And I just haven't gotten around to trying that one out yet.
[46:34.000 --> 46:35.980]  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, you're welcome to do it and see what happens.
[46:36.260 --> 46:41.200]  [SPEAKER_13]: I heard on the 2600 bulletin board, they said that they taped the conversations, too.
[46:41.340 --> 46:42.180]  [SPEAKER_13]: All the conversations.
[46:42.520 --> 46:43.660]  [SPEAKER_04]: I kind of doubt that.
[46:43.860 --> 46:44.080]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yes.
[46:44.080 --> 46:45.660]  [SPEAKER_13]: From what I hear, it's running.
[46:45.920 --> 46:47.880]  [SPEAKER_13]: The whole system is running off of a 486.
[46:55.730 --> 46:58.070]  [SPEAKER_12]: Information pretending to be someone else and how easy it was.
[46:58.630 --> 47:03.550]  [SPEAKER_12]: We had an incident here at my house where I'm the person's listening right now.
[47:05.430 --> 47:14.230]  [SPEAKER_12]: They basically called up the cable company, phone company, electricity company, all that, and said, we're moving.
[47:14.650 --> 47:16.370]  [SPEAKER_12]: Could you turn off all these services?
[47:17.650 --> 47:21.050]  [SPEAKER_12]: And we were not aware at all that they had done this.
[47:21.550 --> 47:26.210]  [SPEAKER_12]: Until the next morning, I happened to notice that nor the cable or the phones were working.
[47:27.490 --> 47:29.090]  [SPEAKER_12]: And sure enough, I called up.
[47:29.690 --> 47:36.810]  [SPEAKER_12]: And what they had done is, for the phone company, they had somehow put a recording on.
[47:36.950 --> 47:38.250]  [SPEAKER_12]: Got them to put a recording on.
[47:38.330 --> 47:39.530]  [SPEAKER_12]: It said the number's been changed.
[47:40.890 --> 47:42.410]  [SPEAKER_12]: And it had a different number.
[47:42.510 --> 47:44.390]  [SPEAKER_12]: And if you called that number, it didn't even work.
[47:44.730 --> 47:46.870]  [SPEAKER_12]: So I don't know how they couldn't have figured that out.
[47:48.270 --> 47:54.170]  [SPEAKER_12]: And then they had disconnected the cable, sent all our bills to totally different locations.
[47:55.550 --> 48:03.090]  [SPEAKER_12]: And the strange thing was, we then put a passcode on our account, which you can do with 9x now.
[48:03.310 --> 48:09.270]  [SPEAKER_12]: You can put a three-digit access code on it, where no changes can be made without it.
[48:09.430 --> 48:10.050]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's right.
[48:10.230 --> 48:14.510]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, sure enough, I called up to order three-way calling.
[48:15.070 --> 48:16.550]  [SPEAKER_12]: They didn't ask for the access code.
[48:16.970 --> 48:18.010]  [SPEAKER_12]: After we had put it in.
[48:18.490 --> 48:18.570]  [SPEAKER_04]: Incredible.
[48:19.110 --> 48:19.710]  [SPEAKER_04]: And you know what else?
[48:19.710 --> 48:24.430]  [SPEAKER_04]: There's another weakness in that system, where you can assign an access code to somebody else that doesn't have one.
[48:24.570 --> 48:24.870]  [SPEAKER_04]: Exactly.
[48:25.050 --> 48:27.130]  [SPEAKER_04]: And thereby lock them out of their own account.
[48:27.890 --> 48:31.750]  [SPEAKER_12]: And the last thing is, you're talking about how there's a number shortage.
[48:32.090 --> 48:32.290]  [SPEAKER_22]: Mm-hmm.
[48:32.410 --> 48:34.350]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, two things about that.
[48:34.510 --> 48:38.830]  [SPEAKER_12]: First of all, I got a tour of the local 9x office here.
[48:39.930 --> 48:40.610]  [SPEAKER_12]: Switching office.
[48:40.890 --> 48:43.730]  [SPEAKER_12]: If you want to happen to do that, they'll give you a free tour or whatever.
[48:43.730 --> 48:49.490]  [SPEAKER_12]: Or just, first of all, call 914-890-2300 for the President's Helpline.
[48:50.030 --> 48:52.690]  [SPEAKER_12]: And just tell them, I don't know, you're doing a project or something.
[48:52.870 --> 48:53.210]  [SPEAKER_24]: Mm-hmm.
[48:53.290 --> 48:54.230]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'm curious about the system.
[48:54.750 --> 48:56.290]  [SPEAKER_12]: And you want to know if you could get a tour.
[48:56.410 --> 48:57.850]  [SPEAKER_12]: And they'll usually be happy to do that.
[48:57.950 --> 48:58.830]  [SPEAKER_12]: And they'll give you a tour.
[48:59.490 --> 49:01.150]  [SPEAKER_04]: Don't mention 2600 Magazine.
[49:01.170 --> 49:02.230]  [SPEAKER_04]: Don't mention Off the Hook.
[49:02.230 --> 49:03.170]  [SPEAKER_04]: And you'll probably get in.
[49:03.170 --> 49:03.590]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah.
[49:04.550 --> 49:06.950]  [SPEAKER_12]: What they told me was, well, two things.
[49:07.270 --> 49:11.890]  [SPEAKER_12]: First of all, they're saying they have their...
[49:11.890 --> 49:15.350]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'm not sure maybe if this will change the problem.
[49:15.510 --> 49:20.910]  [SPEAKER_12]: But first of all, they have a way of sending two phone lines through one copper wire.
[49:21.130 --> 49:22.410]  [SPEAKER_12]: Not fiber optics, but copper.
[49:22.690 --> 49:22.870]  [SPEAKER_24]: Mm-hmm.
[49:23.290 --> 49:30.890]  [SPEAKER_12]: And the other thing was, they told me that only 35,000 out of the 70,000 numbers here, at least, are used.
[49:31.690 --> 49:34.610]  [SPEAKER_12]: And they don't plan to use the rest of them because they might need them for emergencies.
[49:35.530 --> 49:36.330]  [SPEAKER_12]: I mean, everywhere.
[49:36.570 --> 49:36.910]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh-huh.
[49:37.090 --> 49:38.850]  [SPEAKER_12]: They don't need the new area because that's just a waste.
[49:39.090 --> 49:39.390]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[49:39.490 --> 49:45.810]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, I mean, there's a lot of wasted numbers, I guess you could look at it through cellular phones, voicemail boxes, beepers, things like that.
[49:45.890 --> 49:47.590]  [SPEAKER_04]: Things that aren't real true phone lines.
[49:47.770 --> 49:49.230]  [SPEAKER_04]: And that's why we're running out of numbers.
[49:50.090 --> 49:51.310]  [SPEAKER_04]: But they're only numbers, you know.
[49:51.310 --> 49:52.990]  [SPEAKER_04]: We can simply assign other things.
[49:53.150 --> 49:55.570]  [SPEAKER_04]: This area code change is something that's long overdue.
[49:55.730 --> 50:02.870]  [SPEAKER_12]: There's one prefix here where you can call it and it says, call answering cannot continue transferring to an attendant on about 5,000 numbers.
[50:03.170 --> 50:03.470]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh-huh.
[50:04.570 --> 50:04.950]  [SPEAKER_04]: Wow.
[50:05.230 --> 50:07.230]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, there's all kinds of weird things going on.
[50:07.410 --> 50:07.710]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[50:07.890 --> 50:09.630]  [SPEAKER_04]: And it's going to increase for the next couple of years.
[50:09.890 --> 50:11.190]  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know what's going to happen after that.
[50:11.650 --> 50:11.770]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[50:12.030 --> 50:12.230]  [SPEAKER_04]: All right.
[50:12.270 --> 50:12.790]  [SPEAKER_04]: Thanks for your call.
[50:15.210 --> 50:16.170]  [SPEAKER_04]: That reminds me.
[50:16.270 --> 50:20.710]  [SPEAKER_04]: That reminds me of something else weird that happened over the past couple of weeks.
[50:20.710 --> 50:24.770]  [SPEAKER_04]: A lot has happened in these last few weeks since we've been on.
[50:26.210 --> 50:30.590]  [SPEAKER_04]: We had a problem with a phone company where they actually turned off one of our phone lines.
[50:31.050 --> 50:33.970]  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, this has never, ever, ever happened before.
[50:34.510 --> 50:35.790]  [SPEAKER_04]: But you know what they do these days?
[50:35.850 --> 50:40.670]  [SPEAKER_04]: When they turn off your phone line, it used to be that you would pick up the phone and you wouldn't get anything.
[50:40.670 --> 50:41.730]  [SPEAKER_04]: You would not get a dial tone.
[50:41.790 --> 50:45.010]  [SPEAKER_04]: You could still get incoming calls, but you wouldn't get a dial tone.
[50:45.070 --> 50:45.810]  [SPEAKER_04]: You couldn't dial anything.
[50:45.810 --> 50:47.250]  [SPEAKER_04]: And in fact, there was a trick.
[50:47.350 --> 50:50.650]  [SPEAKER_04]: There might even still be a trick with that particular system.
[50:51.470 --> 50:57.850]  [SPEAKER_04]: The trick being that you can somehow get three-way.
[50:57.930 --> 50:59.730]  [SPEAKER_04]: If you have three-way, if you subscribe to three-way, that is.
[51:00.350 --> 51:05.870]  [SPEAKER_04]: You can manage to get another dial tone by having somebody call you.
[51:06.010 --> 51:10.150]  [SPEAKER_04]: And then you flash the switch hook and you go to another dial tone.
[51:10.230 --> 51:11.670]  [SPEAKER_04]: That dial tone will be unrestricted.
[51:12.770 --> 51:18.110]  [SPEAKER_04]: Now, there's another way of doing things.
[51:18.170 --> 51:19.250]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's the way they do things today.
[51:19.650 --> 51:21.670]  [SPEAKER_04]: They have the more sophisticated way of doing it.
[51:21.790 --> 51:24.010]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's where you get a dial tone, but you can't dial anything.
[51:24.270 --> 51:25.750]  [SPEAKER_04]: They don't let you dial anything.
[51:25.790 --> 51:30.690]  [SPEAKER_04]: You can only call an 890 number, which is New York Telephone, or 911.
[51:31.010 --> 51:31.370]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's it.
[51:32.190 --> 51:36.270]  [SPEAKER_04]: You get a recording saying, to call the police, dial 911 to talk about your bill.
[51:37.030 --> 51:37.770]  [SPEAKER_04]: Call us.
[51:38.270 --> 51:39.870]  [SPEAKER_04]: Actually, you can call 800 numbers, too.
[51:39.870 --> 51:41.090]  [SPEAKER_04]: So, it was a mistake.
[51:41.090 --> 51:43.810]  [SPEAKER_04]: It was a clerical error, and we were able to get it fixed pretty quickly.
[51:43.810 --> 51:49.650]  [SPEAKER_04]: But we had enough time to hack out the system and see if there were any holes in it, and we were unable to find anything.
[51:50.190 --> 51:54.090]  [SPEAKER_04]: Unable to find a single hole, except for 800 numbers going through.
[51:54.730 --> 51:55.950]  [SPEAKER_04]: 95Os did not work at all.
[51:57.990 --> 51:58.590]  [SPEAKER_04]: 958 worked.
[51:58.710 --> 52:02.330]  [SPEAKER_04]: 958 and 511 worked for the automatic number announcements.
[52:03.790 --> 52:06.710]  [SPEAKER_04]: And 311, the new TDD service, worked.
[52:08.390 --> 52:10.630]  [SPEAKER_04]: So, that was kind of neat right there.
[52:11.870 --> 52:12.270]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[52:13.510 --> 52:15.330]  [SPEAKER_04]: 212-279-3400.
[52:15.650 --> 52:16.110]  [SPEAKER_04]: Good evening.
[52:16.230 --> 52:16.410]  [SPEAKER_04]: You're on.
[52:17.270 --> 52:17.670]  [SPEAKER_18]: Hello?
[52:18.010 --> 52:18.490]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, go ahead.
[52:18.990 --> 52:19.810]  [SPEAKER_18]: Am I on the air?
[52:20.230 --> 52:20.630]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
[52:21.230 --> 52:21.610]  [SPEAKER_18]: Hello.
[52:22.610 --> 52:23.130]  [SPEAKER_18]: Who's this?
[52:23.230 --> 52:24.590]  [SPEAKER_18]: I just stumbled on your program.
[52:24.730 --> 52:25.390]  [SPEAKER_18]: You're talking about the earthquake.
[52:26.130 --> 52:27.290]  [SPEAKER_04]: No, you got the wrong station.
[52:27.410 --> 52:27.590]  [SPEAKER_04]: Sorry.
[52:27.910 --> 52:28.430]  [SPEAKER_04]: Good morning.
[52:28.810 --> 52:29.310]  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, good evening.
[52:29.910 --> 52:30.190]  [SPEAKER_04]: Hi.
[52:30.390 --> 52:31.810]  [SPEAKER_15]: Are you on a delay, or am I on the air?
[52:32.230 --> 52:32.990]  [SPEAKER_04]: You're on the air.
[52:33.430 --> 52:34.850]  [SPEAKER_04]: And we're not talking about an earthquake.
[52:35.490 --> 52:36.210]  [SPEAKER_15]: I beg your pardon?
[52:37.050 --> 52:37.830]  [SPEAKER_15]: What am I...
[52:37.830 --> 52:38.650]  [SPEAKER_15]: Oh, I said you...
[52:38.650 --> 52:39.230]  [SPEAKER_15]: I am on the air.
[52:39.590 --> 52:40.410]  [SPEAKER_15]: Let me turn this down.
[52:40.710 --> 52:41.110]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay.
[52:41.310 --> 52:42.130]  [SPEAKER_15]: Here's my question.
[52:42.390 --> 52:44.550]  [SPEAKER_15]: What can you tell me about non-published numbers?
[52:44.770 --> 52:46.990]  [SPEAKER_15]: Getting them, the legalities, ways of...
[52:46.990 --> 52:52.550]  [SPEAKER_15]: If you do get those numbers, what is legal to know, and what's not legal to know?
[52:53.430 --> 52:53.990]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm sorry?
[52:54.350 --> 52:55.010]  [SPEAKER_15]: Did you follow?
[52:55.650 --> 52:56.210]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm sorry.
[52:56.210 --> 52:56.870]  [SPEAKER_04]: I had trouble hearing you.
[52:57.150 --> 52:57.410]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay.
[52:57.430 --> 52:59.110]  [SPEAKER_15]: My question is about non-published numbers.
[52:59.290 --> 52:59.570]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
[53:00.090 --> 53:01.650]  [SPEAKER_15]: What is possible to get?
[53:01.810 --> 53:02.910]  [SPEAKER_15]: What is not possible to get?
[53:03.050 --> 53:06.810]  [SPEAKER_15]: If you get those numbers, are you holding illegal information, et cetera?
[53:08.970 --> 53:10.050]  [SPEAKER_04]: If you get a non...
[53:10.050 --> 53:11.890]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, I don't know what you mean by if you get a non-published number.
[53:11.990 --> 53:16.250]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, I guess through surreptitious means, you could get a non-published number of someone else's.
[53:16.250 --> 53:17.090]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, then it's the method.
[53:17.110 --> 53:18.230]  [SPEAKER_15]: I hypothesize that you got that.
[53:18.450 --> 53:20.490]  [SPEAKER_15]: Knowing that information, do you think that would be illegal?
[53:20.770 --> 53:23.530]  [SPEAKER_04]: I think disseminating that information would be illegal.
[53:23.870 --> 53:29.070]  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't think actually having the information in itself is illegal.
[53:29.850 --> 53:34.930]  [SPEAKER_04]: But certainly, if you were to break a law to get the information, then yes, you'd be breaking a law, obviously.
[53:35.250 --> 53:35.470]  [SPEAKER_04]: Right.
[53:35.470 --> 53:46.510]  [SPEAKER_04]: But that's, you know, possession, unlike what they send fiber optic away for, it's not holding on to an access device.
[53:46.510 --> 53:51.130]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's, it's not, it's not holding on to an access device.
[53:51.850 --> 53:55.250]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's, um, it's basically, you know...
[53:55.250 --> 53:55.610]  [SPEAKER_15]: Information.
[53:57.950 --> 53:59.030]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it's information.
[53:59.710 --> 54:12.330]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, do you have, now, the next question becomes, if there was a method by dialing 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, hypothetically, and there was an internal code that one could use to, to get that information, knowing that, that, that information, if such a thing existed,
[54:12.430 --> 54:14.070]  [SPEAKER_15]: then starting to use it, would that be illegal?
[54:14.410 --> 54:15.550]  [SPEAKER_15]: There was a way to hack into it.
[54:15.550 --> 54:23.110]  [SPEAKER_15]: If there was a legal way, you found a way to get into a system, you happened upon some information that allowed you to go into computers and pull it, think that would be illegal?
[54:23.110 --> 54:29.590]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, but you're still, you're still violating the person's privacy by getting it in the first place, and that's, you know, that's subject to something, you see?
[54:29.770 --> 54:33.270]  [SPEAKER_04]: And that's, that's, that's what, uh, that's where breaking a law would come in.
[54:33.530 --> 54:36.650]  [SPEAKER_04]: You know, violating somebody's privacy, getting information that's supposed to be private.
[54:37.310 --> 54:45.490]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, now, if that information is, uh, is made available by phone companies, and made available easily by phone companies, well, then that's something that the phone
[54:49.710 --> 54:55.830]  [SPEAKER_04]: The most important question is, do you know how to get them?
[54:58.950 --> 55:00.610]  [SPEAKER_04]: Is there anything you'd like to say on the air?
[55:15.490 --> 55:18.010]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's very hard to get them to tell you things they are supposed to, but that's something else.
[55:18.630 --> 55:19.110]  [SPEAKER_04]: All right.
[55:19.250 --> 55:19.690]  [SPEAKER_04]: Thanks for calling.
[55:20.770 --> 55:21.130]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[55:21.430 --> 55:21.890]  [SPEAKER_04]: Thanks so much.
[55:22.350 --> 55:24.190]  [SPEAKER_04]: See if we can squeeze in one more call.
[55:25.150 --> 55:25.690]  [SPEAKER_04]: Good evening.
[55:26.510 --> 55:27.250]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yes, good evening.
[55:27.610 --> 55:29.510]  [SPEAKER_11]: I would like to know two questions.
[55:30.330 --> 55:33.230]  [SPEAKER_11]: Where in Manhattan can I get the 2600?
[55:33.610 --> 55:39.270]  [SPEAKER_11]: And how is the prisoner, poor Mark, going to know that he has money coming his way?
[55:39.890 --> 55:43.490]  [SPEAKER_04]: First of all, I know Mark is going to love the fact that he's not referred to as the prisoner.
[55:43.610 --> 55:44.370]  [SPEAKER_04]: He is going to like that.
[55:45.010 --> 55:46.270]  [SPEAKER_04]: Hi, Mark, I'm saying.
[55:46.650 --> 55:47.950]  [SPEAKER_04]: No, I like it.
[55:48.050 --> 55:48.890]  [SPEAKER_04]: I think he will, too.
[55:49.550 --> 55:51.850]  [SPEAKER_04]: But basically, how is he going to know?
[55:52.070 --> 55:58.910]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, hopefully, he dials a particular number to find out what his balance is on, I think, both the phone and the commissary.
[55:59.090 --> 55:59.430]  [SPEAKER_04]: Right.
[55:59.550 --> 56:01.870]  [SPEAKER_04]: In case those of you are curious out there, the number is 118.
[56:01.990 --> 56:03.770]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's what he dials from inside his system.
[56:05.190 --> 56:09.430]  [SPEAKER_04]: And he's able to tell on a day-by-day basis how much money is put into there.
[56:09.490 --> 56:12.210]  [SPEAKER_04]: And I think he would also find out who it's from.
[56:12.210 --> 56:13.410]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm pretty sure that's how it works.
[56:13.410 --> 56:16.050]  [SPEAKER_04]: He hasn't been in there long enough for us to really know how that system works.
[56:16.970 --> 56:21.310]  [SPEAKER_04]: But I should be talking to him in the next couple of days, and I can find out more specifics about that.
[56:21.310 --> 56:30.670]  [SPEAKER_11]: Somebody who didn't know him were to send him $10 or something, and the person, of course, money or whatever, and has the proof.
[56:30.670 --> 56:33.450]  [SPEAKER_11]: But he never finds out because somebody else uses it or whatever.
[56:33.910 --> 56:41.630]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, I know it's hard for us to trust these people that run the prison, but we're going to have to for this particular thing.
[56:41.910 --> 56:46.550]  [SPEAKER_04]: But, you know, a contribution like that of $10 would have paid for the interview you just heard now.
[56:46.810 --> 56:47.990]  [SPEAKER_04]: You know, things like that.
[56:47.990 --> 56:49.670]  [SPEAKER_04]: And we cannot call him.
[56:49.850 --> 56:52.630]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's really sad that we can't call back and ask questions.
[56:52.690 --> 56:53.650]  [SPEAKER_04]: We have to wait for him to call us.
[56:53.730 --> 56:55.550]  [SPEAKER_04]: We have to be around just at that particular moment.
[56:55.670 --> 56:57.510]  [SPEAKER_04]: And after 15 minutes, he gets cut off.
[56:57.510 --> 57:04.410]  [SPEAKER_11]: I would gladly, for example, send the copy of the money order to somewhere where then he has a proof or something.
[57:04.630 --> 57:04.830]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh-huh.
[57:04.890 --> 57:11.050]  [SPEAKER_11]: Because of me, but because for him to have the possibility of double-checking if he has received something.
[57:11.170 --> 57:11.330]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay.
[57:11.350 --> 57:13.910]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, you're welcome to send it here to WBAI as well.
[57:14.110 --> 57:14.230]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh-huh.
[57:14.230 --> 57:15.690]  [SPEAKER_04]: Or if you want, we can forward it to him.
[57:15.770 --> 57:16.470]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's fine as well.
[57:16.650 --> 57:16.910]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh-huh.
[57:17.610 --> 57:23.310]  [SPEAKER_11]: If you send it in a letter, would it get to him the copy that something has been sent to him?
[57:23.530 --> 57:23.770]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[57:23.910 --> 57:25.230]  [SPEAKER_04]: We would make sure of that.
[57:25.230 --> 57:25.770]  [SPEAKER_11]: I know.
[57:25.930 --> 57:32.250]  [SPEAKER_11]: I mean, because I have a feeling that he is very appreciated and that this might come up through other people also.
[57:32.430 --> 57:32.690]  [SPEAKER_22]: Uh-huh.
[57:32.990 --> 57:42.910]  [SPEAKER_11]: Will he know if he has received something, not for an ego trip, but just for him to know that he has something coming or that something was sent to be able to double-check?
[57:42.990 --> 57:44.250]  [SPEAKER_04]: See, we really don't know yet.
[57:44.390 --> 57:45.090]  [SPEAKER_04]: We really don't know.
[57:45.230 --> 57:45.350]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[57:45.470 --> 57:46.110]  [SPEAKER_04]: We have to try.
[57:46.270 --> 57:47.110]  [SPEAKER_11]: And we're in Manhattan.
[57:47.350 --> 57:48.650]  [SPEAKER_11]: Could I find 2600?
[57:48.810 --> 57:52.490]  [SPEAKER_11]: I would like to have a sample copy to buy it to read before I subscribe.
[57:52.490 --> 57:58.690]  [SPEAKER_04]: Try any kind of alternative bookstore or places like Tower or Hudson News or places like that.
[57:58.970 --> 57:59.570]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay, wonderful.
[57:59.570 --> 58:00.810]  [SPEAKER_04]: Thank you so much.
[58:00.870 --> 58:01.250]  [SPEAKER_04]: Thanks for calling.
[58:01.430 --> 58:01.530]  [SPEAKER_04]: Bye-bye.
[58:01.810 --> 58:02.150]  [SPEAKER_04]: All right.
[58:02.210 --> 58:03.030]  [SPEAKER_04]: We're out of time here.
[58:09.000 --> 58:10.520]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's just about 11 o'clock.
[58:10.660 --> 58:12.300]  [SPEAKER_04]: Time for us to be rebroadcasting the news.
[58:12.480 --> 58:23.000]  [SPEAKER_04]: If you want to send something to the radio station and not to the prison or if you want to send a duplicate to us so we can verify if Fiber ever got it, you can write to us here at WBAI.
[58:23.000 --> 58:30.340]  [SPEAKER_04]: Emmanuel Goldstein, Off the Hook, 505 8th Avenue, New York, New York, 10018.
[58:31.160 --> 58:35.480]  [SPEAKER_04]: We'll be back next week with yet another fun-filled edition of Off the Hook.
[58:36.120 --> 58:40.140]  [SPEAKER_04]: And until then, stay happy, stay educated, stay warm.
[58:40.360 --> 58:40.600]  [SPEAKER_04]: Good night.