Off The Hook - 1994-02-16

[01:14.430 --> 01:21.370]  [SPEAKER_03]: Friday night or Saturday morning, 3 to 5 a.m., hear the music of Donna Long live.
[01:21.850 --> 01:26.910]  [SPEAKER_03]: That's Friday night or Saturday morning, depending on whether you're staying up or getting up.
[01:26.910 --> 01:28.730]  [SPEAKER_03]: 3 to 5 a.m.
[01:29.070 --> 01:32.870]  [SPEAKER_03]: on WBAI 99.5 FM.
[01:33.570 --> 01:35.490]  [SPEAKER_03]: Donna Long live.
[01:36.010 --> 01:37.670]  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm Frederick Jeobald.
[01:37.970 --> 01:38.990]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's Light Show.
[01:42.940 --> 01:45.700]  [SPEAKER_25]: And it's 10 o'clock, Wednesday night.
[01:45.940 --> 01:47.840]  [SPEAKER_25]: Time for Off the Hook.
[01:52.980 --> 01:57.540]  [SPEAKER_07]: The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
[01:58.820 --> 02:00.460]  [SPEAKER_07]: I cut myself off shaving.
[02:00.980 --> 02:03.000]  [SPEAKER_07]: Now I can't make a cough.
[02:03.780 --> 02:05.680]  [SPEAKER_07]: It couldn't get much worse.
[02:06.380 --> 02:08.220]  [SPEAKER_07]: But if they could, they would.
[02:08.480 --> 02:09.220]  [SPEAKER_07]: Bum, did we bump?
[02:09.360 --> 02:11.100]  [SPEAKER_07]: But the best is back from worst.
[02:11.720 --> 02:13.540]  [SPEAKER_07]: I hope that's understood.
[02:13.760 --> 02:14.560]  [SPEAKER_07]: Bum, did we bump?
[02:49.620 --> 02:51.140]  [SPEAKER_25]: And a very good evening, everybody.
[02:51.460 --> 02:52.360]  [SPEAKER_25]: This is Off the Hook.
[02:52.560 --> 03:02.180]  [SPEAKER_25]: Emmanuel Goldstein with you for the next hour, talking about telephones and computers, high technology, low intelligence, all kinds of fun things that go along with it.
[03:02.640 --> 03:04.940]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's all about new things.
[03:04.940 --> 03:06.620]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's all about changing habits.
[03:06.620 --> 03:08.560]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's all about having lots of fun.
[03:08.680 --> 03:12.120]  [SPEAKER_25]: And above all else, it's all about power.
[03:16.550 --> 03:27.490]  [SPEAKER_21]: The Autonomous Komi Republic, which is part of the Russian Federation, is situated in the far northwest of Europe and spreads up to the Arctic part of the Ural Mountains.
[03:27.870 --> 03:30.450]  [SPEAKER_21]: It's crossed by nine northern parallels.
[03:31.350 --> 03:35.230]  [SPEAKER_21]: Ten fair-sized European states could be placed on its territory.
[03:35.230 --> 03:44.630]  [SPEAKER_21]: Besides indigenous residents, that is, the Komi people, there are also Russians, Ukrainians, Nenetses, Chuvashis, and Tatars.
[03:45.070 --> 03:47.890]  [SPEAKER_21]: And now, let's go back into history a little bit.
[03:49.150 --> 03:55.690]  [SPEAKER_21]: A boy lying on skins behind our backs was turning the knobs of a small transistor radio.
[04:00.350 --> 04:05.110]  [SPEAKER_21]: And a tent was suddenly filled with an announcer's voice speaking Komi.
[04:08.430 --> 04:13.110]  [SPEAKER_21]: Then, with music from Moscow, followed by English and French speech.
[04:13.410 --> 04:17.010]  [SPEAKER_00]: The recording was made at the Moscow Theater of Musical Miniatures.
[04:17.490 --> 04:19.230]  [SPEAKER_21]: Now, back to modern times.
[04:19.950 --> 04:21.390]  [SPEAKER_02]: Your attention, please.
[04:21.990 --> 04:32.830]  [SPEAKER_02]: At the recommendation of the International Time Bureau, commencing at 23 hours, 15 minutes, 60 seconds, UTC, an extra second will be inserted into the NBS timescale.
[04:32.830 --> 04:44.310]  [SPEAKER_02]: This adjustment is required to maintain internationally coordinated universal time as we broadcast from these stations in close agreement with UT-1, or Astronomical Time.
[04:48.200 --> 04:52.620]  [SPEAKER_07]: W-A-6-O-D-B with a question.
[04:56.190 --> 04:59.360]  [SPEAKER_08]: Do you know how many time zones there are in the Soviet Union?
[04:59.540 --> 05:00.780]  [SPEAKER_08]: And about power.
[05:01.260 --> 05:02.850]  [SPEAKER_08]: We've got so much power now.
[05:03.020 --> 05:05.520]  [SPEAKER_08]: Do you know how many time zones there are in the Soviet Union?
[05:05.660 --> 05:07.100]  [SPEAKER_08]: We've got so much power now.
[05:07.480 --> 05:08.300]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's ridiculous.
[05:08.620 --> 05:11.580]  [SPEAKER_08]: Do you know how many time zones there are in the Soviet Union?
[05:11.880 --> 05:13.260]  [SPEAKER_08]: Power and all that.
[05:13.380 --> 05:14.100]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's power.
[05:14.320 --> 05:15.470]  [SPEAKER_08]: We've got so much power.
[05:15.660 --> 05:16.350]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's ridiculous.
[05:16.350 --> 05:21.360]  [SPEAKER_08]: We have power, power, power, power, power, power now.
[05:21.560 --> 05:22.350]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's ridiculous.
[05:22.640 --> 05:23.970]  [SPEAKER_08]: We've got so much power now.
[05:24.120 --> 05:26.600]  [SPEAKER_08]: Do you know how many time zones there are in the Soviet Union?
[05:26.780 --> 05:27.780]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's not even funny.
[05:28.360 --> 05:29.320]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's ridiculous.
[05:29.760 --> 05:31.040]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's not even funny.
[05:31.560 --> 05:32.500]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's ridiculous.
[05:33.460 --> 05:34.400]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's ridiculous.
[05:34.660 --> 05:36.340]  [SPEAKER_08]: Do you know how many times... That's ridiculous.
[05:36.780 --> 05:37.780]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's not even funny.
[05:38.160 --> 05:40.740]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's not even funny.
[05:40.880 --> 05:43.460]  [SPEAKER_08]: Do you know how many time zones there are in the Soviet Union?
[05:43.460 --> 05:44.800]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's not even funny.
[05:45.900 --> 05:47.140]  [SPEAKER_08]: How many time zones?
[05:47.460 --> 05:47.660]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[05:48.080 --> 05:49.760]  [SPEAKER_08]: We have four in this country, right?
[05:50.080 --> 05:51.280]  [SPEAKER_08]: How many time zones?
[05:51.520 --> 05:51.680]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[05:52.120 --> 05:52.940]  [SPEAKER_08]: One, two, three.
[05:53.060 --> 05:54.060]  [SPEAKER_08]: Four in this country, right?
[05:54.260 --> 05:54.840]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yes, sir.
[05:55.840 --> 05:56.240]  [SPEAKER_08]: Four.
[05:56.740 --> 05:57.540]  [SPEAKER_08]: One, two, three.
[05:57.680 --> 05:58.020]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yes, sir.
[05:58.220 --> 05:59.620]  [SPEAKER_08]: One, two, three.
[05:59.800 --> 06:00.100]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yes, sir.
[06:01.650 --> 06:02.760]  [SPEAKER_08]: Four time zones?
[06:02.940 --> 06:03.180]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[06:03.480 --> 06:04.860]  [SPEAKER_08]: We have four in this country, right?
[06:05.140 --> 06:05.760]  [SPEAKER_08]: No, sir.
[06:06.300 --> 06:07.040]  [SPEAKER_08]: We have...
[06:07.040 --> 06:07.660]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yes, sir.
[06:09.320 --> 06:09.720]  [SPEAKER_08]: And...
[06:09.720 --> 06:11.520]  [SPEAKER_08]: Do you know how many time zones they have?
[06:11.520 --> 06:12.280]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yes, sir.
[06:12.700 --> 06:13.180]  [SPEAKER_08]: Four.
[06:13.540 --> 06:14.180]  [SPEAKER_08]: No, sir.
[06:14.340 --> 06:16.280]  [SPEAKER_08]: I never really studied that up.
[06:16.660 --> 06:17.080]  [SPEAKER_08]: Eleven.
[06:17.880 --> 06:18.440]  [SPEAKER_08]: Eleven.
[06:18.840 --> 06:19.920]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's not even funny.
[06:20.220 --> 06:20.680]  [SPEAKER_08]: Eleven.
[06:21.480 --> 06:22.040]  [SPEAKER_08]: Eleven.
[06:22.360 --> 06:23.300]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's ridiculous.
[06:23.660 --> 06:24.120]  [SPEAKER_08]: Eleven.
[06:24.920 --> 06:25.480]  [SPEAKER_08]: Eleven.
[06:25.820 --> 06:26.740]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's what we can do.
[06:26.840 --> 06:28.760]  [SPEAKER_08]: We can go anywhere because we live here.
[06:28.860 --> 06:33.540]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, but not only the right of free travel, I'm saying eleven.
[06:34.560 --> 06:34.980]  [SPEAKER_08]: Eleven.
[06:35.600 --> 06:36.320]  [SPEAKER_08]: One, two, three.
[06:36.500 --> 06:36.820]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yes, sir.
[06:37.480 --> 06:38.040]  [SPEAKER_08]: Eleven.
[06:38.860 --> 06:39.420]  [SPEAKER_08]: Eleven.
[06:39.740 --> 06:40.580]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's how big they are.
[06:40.580 --> 06:41.600]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, yeah.
[06:41.900 --> 06:42.340]  [SPEAKER_08]: Eleven.
[06:42.620 --> 06:43.500]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's how big they are.
[06:43.700 --> 06:44.480]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, yeah.
[06:44.620 --> 06:45.640]  [SPEAKER_08]: I can believe that.
[06:45.760 --> 06:46.920]  [SPEAKER_08]: I'm a firm believer in that.
[06:47.140 --> 06:47.320]  [SPEAKER_08]: Really?
[06:48.080 --> 06:48.720]  [SPEAKER_08]: One, two, three.
[06:49.600 --> 06:50.040]  [SPEAKER_08]: Four.
[06:50.360 --> 06:51.040]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yes, sir.
[06:51.260 --> 06:52.000]  [SPEAKER_08]: One, two, three.
[06:52.000 --> 06:52.240]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yes, sir.
[06:52.420 --> 06:52.760]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yes, sir.
[06:53.300 --> 06:56.540]  [SPEAKER_08]: The Soviet Union, the whole half side of the world.
[06:57.400 --> 06:57.840]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[06:58.100 --> 07:02.040]  [SPEAKER_08]: And we're just a little, one little tent of the globe.
[07:02.960 --> 07:03.160]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[07:03.780 --> 07:09.300]  [SPEAKER_08]: They, uh, when you talk about fighting, we're a country that, uh, we're a firm believer on Christ.
[07:09.500 --> 07:11.360]  [SPEAKER_08]: And it's called help thy neighbor.
[07:11.600 --> 07:12.720]  [SPEAKER_08]: Do not kill.
[07:12.940 --> 07:15.920]  [SPEAKER_08]: Do not, you know, steal, cheat, lie from everybody.
[07:16.280 --> 07:18.220]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's why we have to have computers.
[07:18.280 --> 07:21.360]  [SPEAKER_08]: Because, man, nobody is perfect.
[07:22.060 --> 07:22.680]  [SPEAKER_08]: You know?
[07:23.780 --> 07:25.060]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's not even funny.
[07:25.060 --> 07:29.800]  [SPEAKER_08]: You might... And about power, man, nobody is perfect.
[07:30.540 --> 07:31.120]  [SPEAKER_08]: You know?
[07:31.260 --> 07:32.080]  [SPEAKER_08]: So what is your point?
[07:32.260 --> 07:33.440]  [SPEAKER_08]: Nobody is perfect.
[07:34.180 --> 07:34.760]  [SPEAKER_08]: You know?
[07:34.920 --> 07:35.980]  [SPEAKER_08]: So what is your point, Glenn?
[07:36.260 --> 07:38.780]  [SPEAKER_08]: There's, there's, there's, there's two things you don't talk about.
[07:38.900 --> 07:40.680]  [SPEAKER_08]: One's politics, the other one's religion.
[07:41.280 --> 07:45.680]  [SPEAKER_08]: You, you might... They can, the reason you don't talk about them is because they combine in each other.
[07:46.120 --> 07:47.180]  [SPEAKER_08]: You know what I'm saying?
[07:47.180 --> 07:49.860]  [SPEAKER_08]: Do you know how many time zones there are in the Soviet Union?
[07:50.480 --> 07:51.320]  [SPEAKER_08]: You know what I'm saying?
[07:51.500 --> 07:52.360]  [SPEAKER_08]: Don't you kid yourself.
[07:53.020 --> 07:57.740]  [SPEAKER_08]: Thanks, Glenn, for the, uh, just thanks for the, the good thoughts.
[08:04.250 --> 08:07.310]  [SPEAKER_18]: This concludes our transmission to Oceania.
[08:07.610 --> 08:12.090]  [SPEAKER_18]: However, listeners in East Asia may continue listening on the following shortwave frequencies.
[08:12.730 --> 08:22.030]  [SPEAKER_18]: 6110, 7230, 9565, 9760, 15160, and 15425 kilohertz.
[08:29.950 --> 08:37.730]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, if you listen to, uh, certain members of the House of Representatives, we just gave out a whole lot of codes on the air, but, uh, no, that's not what we did.
[08:37.870 --> 08:42.250]  [SPEAKER_25]: We listened to Negativland and, uh, a track called Time Zones, one of my favorites.
[08:43.330 --> 08:52.650]  [SPEAKER_25]: I don't know if you, uh, were able to pick out the long-distance operator on that particular track, giving out the phone number to Radio Moscow, but that was, uh, a lot of, uh, a lot of things going on there.
[08:54.730 --> 08:55.950]  [SPEAKER_25]: Eleven time zones, yeah.
[08:57.070 --> 09:00.170]  [SPEAKER_25]: I like to, uh, look at something that I think is really, really scary.
[09:00.410 --> 09:06.650]  [SPEAKER_25]: I don't know how many of you pick up the New York Times and read it every day and find yourself being scared to death almost every day by various things.
[09:07.050 --> 09:19.490]  [SPEAKER_25]: But if you had done that on Saturday, uh, you might have really, um, gotten the run for your money by looking at the front page and reading an article entitled, White House Seeking Software to Aid in Wiretaps.
[09:19.570 --> 09:32.090]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now, as you recall last week, we, um, we had a show about the clipper chip and how, uh, the White House is pressing for the clipper chip to be, uh, um, instituted everywhere you look.
[09:32.390 --> 09:36.510]  [SPEAKER_25]: A way of, um, decrypting various means of communication.
[09:36.590 --> 09:43.530]  [SPEAKER_25]: Ways that law enforcement can maintain a, uh, a firm grip, if you will, on the criminal element.
[09:43.530 --> 09:48.930]  [SPEAKER_25]: And at the same time, have the potential to eavesdrop on every single one of us without us ever knowing.
[09:50.070 --> 09:58.670]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, add this story to the mess and you'll see why some of us are, well, just looking over our shoulders a whole lot more than we used to.
[09:59.150 --> 10:11.410]  [SPEAKER_25]: The White House is pressing for legislation to force telephone and cable television companies to install computer software on their networks that would enable law enforcement agencies to eavesdrop on phone calls and computer transmissions.
[10:11.410 --> 10:19.190]  [SPEAKER_25]: This, according to the Clinton administration, on Friday, a week after the clipper chip, uh, was, uh, was endorsed again.
[10:19.590 --> 10:35.590]  [SPEAKER_25]: The, uh, move intended to preserve the law enforcement agency's ability to conduct court-authorized wiretaps is intended to overcome the difficulty of intercepting telephone conversations and other electronic transmissions in the on-off pulses of digital computer code,
[10:35.710 --> 10:38.190]  [SPEAKER_25]: which is being used increasingly for everyday communications.
[10:40.490 --> 10:53.070]  [SPEAKER_25]: The administration's plan comes on the heels of a White House effort to promote use of a government-designed computer chip, known as the clipper chip, that would facilitate law enforcement agencies' interceptions of coded computer communications.
[10:53.790 --> 11:02.790]  [SPEAKER_25]: Like the computer chip plan, the new bill is likely to put the administration on a collision course with both telecommunications companies and civil rights groups.
[11:02.790 --> 11:05.290]  [SPEAKER_25]: This is probably the first time they've ever been together on something.
[11:06.070 --> 11:13.810]  [SPEAKER_25]: Industry executives believe any such measure could cost as much as $300 million so that they would have to seek higher rates from customers.
[11:14.350 --> 11:19.290]  [SPEAKER_25]: And civil rights groups argue the measure is largely unnecessary and poses potential threats to privacy.
[11:20.650 --> 11:37.790]  [SPEAKER_25]: If you recall, about a year or so ago, um, the administration, this time the, uh, the Bush administration, was, uh, proposing, uh, through the FBI that, uh, a, a, a kind of, uh, monitoring, um, feature be installed in every digital phone system, and that the cost for this would be,
[11:37.830 --> 11:39.110]  [SPEAKER_25]: uh, passed on to the consumer.
[11:39.430 --> 11:45.310]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, that raised quite a, um, uh, quite a furor in the, uh, in the, in the world of, uh, individuals.
[11:45.310 --> 11:47.210]  [SPEAKER_25]: And it was eventually dropped.
[11:47.350 --> 11:58.610]  [SPEAKER_25]: Then the clipper chip came out about a year ago, was endorsed two weeks ago by the, uh, administration who vowed to press on ahead, despite all the, uh, objections from, uh, people and, uh, civil rights organizations.
[11:58.890 --> 12:09.090]  [SPEAKER_25]: And now this, now a renewal of, uh, of the first plan, which, uh, allows for eavesdropping, very, very simple eavesdropping.
[12:09.170 --> 12:11.410]  [SPEAKER_25]: No more clipping wires onto things.
[12:11.410 --> 12:15.670]  [SPEAKER_25]: No more, uh, running around and going through a lot of paperwork.
[12:15.830 --> 12:17.050]  [SPEAKER_25]: Makes it very, very simple.
[12:17.190 --> 12:21.270]  [SPEAKER_25]: And it's forcing telephone and cable television companies to go along with it.
[12:22.490 --> 12:30.250]  [SPEAKER_25]: Mark Rotenberg, director of Computer Professionals for Social Responsibility, which is a non-profit group in Washington, says, We're not objecting to wiretaps.
[12:30.350 --> 12:35.290]  [SPEAKER_25]: We're saying they don't have the right to pass a law that requires people to make it easier to wiretap.
[12:36.190 --> 12:42.010]  [SPEAKER_25]: Telephone and cable companies are building advanced networks that will also be used for shopping, education, and personal business.
[12:42.150 --> 12:45.310]  [SPEAKER_25]: So, more than tapping telephone calls is at stake.
[12:45.530 --> 12:51.130]  [SPEAKER_25]: We're not only talking about voice communications, said Jerry Berman, executive director of the Electronic Frontier Foundation.
[12:51.510 --> 12:53.250]  [SPEAKER_25]: What kind of movies we watch?
[12:53.410 --> 12:55.530]  [SPEAKER_25]: What kind of commerce we engage in?
[12:55.670 --> 12:58.170]  [SPEAKER_25]: What kind of political parties we want to communicate with?
[12:58.610 --> 13:00.950]  [SPEAKER_25]: All of these things are going to be on the information highway.
[13:02.150 --> 13:13.970]  [SPEAKER_25]: The, uh, new bill, which is a revised version of legislation proposed two years ago by the Bush administration, but never introduced in Congress, would not change any of the legal standards set for law enforcement agencies' wiretaps.
[13:14.110 --> 13:19.270]  [SPEAKER_25]: Rather, it would require companies to install technology that makes it possible to continue traditional wiretapping.
[13:20.170 --> 13:35.990]  [SPEAKER_25]: Officials at the FBI, the plan's main proponent, and at other law enforcement agencies argue that traditional wiretap techniques, which entail little more than splicing into a telephone line and listening, are insufficient for today's digital networks.
[13:36.570 --> 13:45.770]  [SPEAKER_25]: Beyond that, they contend the telephone industry is now using new computerized routing technology that makes it harder to isolate particular calls, or figure out where they are going.
[13:47.330 --> 13:50.130]  [SPEAKER_25]: I mean, they're really, really confused and upset by this.
[13:51.250 --> 14:02.030]  [SPEAKER_25]: However, Martina Bradford, vice president of government affairs for the American Telephone and Telegraph Company, said today that the company saw no need for mandatory requirements on the industry.
[14:02.270 --> 14:07.550]  [SPEAKER_25]: Our main concern in the past was that the Bush legislation appeared to be too broad, too sweeping, and premature.
[14:08.350 --> 14:11.470]  [SPEAKER_25]: We can work these things out under the broad guidelines of current law.
[14:12.410 --> 14:19.150]  [SPEAKER_25]: Administration officials said the new bill would be narrower than the Bush administration measure, which was also pushed by the FBI.
[14:19.370 --> 14:29.890]  [SPEAKER_25]: That bill would have forced almost any company providing communication services, including private computer networks, to include software permitting law enforcement agencies to decipher the streams of digital data.
[14:30.370 --> 14:43.250]  [SPEAKER_25]: Clinton administration officials said the new bill would be more focused than the Bush administration bill, which encountered vigorous opposition from both civil rights groups and telephone companies, and would attempt to meet some of the industry's concerns.
[14:43.670 --> 14:52.030]  [SPEAKER_25]: People familiar with administration thinking say the new bill will probably exempt private networks like those used within companies to exchange data among offices.
[14:52.690 --> 15:00.050]  [SPEAKER_25]: Civil rights groups are hoping the administration will also propose new measures to expand privacy protections against unauthorized eavesdropping.
[15:00.150 --> 15:11.090]  [SPEAKER_25]: For example, by broadening the scope of current laws against unauthorized eavesdropping on cellular telephone calls, which are transmitted via radio waves, and increasing the penalties for violations.
[15:11.910 --> 15:28.550]  [SPEAKER_25]: Within the White House, the Office of Science and Technology Policy has led an effort to develop a measure to satisfy the conflicting demands of security agencies, the communications industry, and civil rights organizations, and administration officials have emphasized that discussions with these groups were continuing.
[15:28.870 --> 15:44.030]  [SPEAKER_25]: Nevertheless, one administration official strongly suggested that the bill would impose new obligations on a wide range of companies, local and long-distance carriers, cable television companies that enter the telephone industry, cellular carriers, and specialized fiber-optic companies.
[15:44.250 --> 15:49.230]  [SPEAKER_25]: The official said all companies that offered communication services must be treated similarly.
[15:49.730 --> 16:01.770]  [SPEAKER_25]: If the telephone company is required to install new technology but other local carriers are not, administration officials fear the other carriers could market themselves as offering services that are free from surveillance.
[16:02.250 --> 16:09.290]  [SPEAKER_25]: FBI officials contend that unless they can keep up with new technology, they will lose an invaluable tool for investigation.
[16:10.950 --> 16:14.710]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's the article that scared me from the New York Times last Saturday.
[16:16.010 --> 16:17.450]  [SPEAKER_25]: They're really serious about this.
[16:17.570 --> 16:22.430]  [SPEAKER_25]: They really want total control of everything and want to be able to listen whenever they want to listen.
[16:22.630 --> 16:31.970]  [SPEAKER_25]: And you have to ask yourself, you know, maybe the technology is developing to a degree where that's not as simple, and maybe it shouldn't be as simple.
[16:32.150 --> 16:36.050]  [SPEAKER_25]: Maybe people should not have the ability to just tap in.
[16:36.690 --> 16:44.830]  [SPEAKER_25]: Maybe by having computer communications and digital telephone networks, we're simply protecting the privacy that we should have in the first place.
[16:45.330 --> 16:49.130]  [SPEAKER_25]: And if you think somebody's a criminal, catch them committing a crime.
[16:50.730 --> 16:52.350]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's the old brainwave analogy.
[16:52.570 --> 16:56.270]  [SPEAKER_25]: If they could read your brainwaves, they'd say they'd have to in order to find criminals.
[16:56.690 --> 16:59.930]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, maybe they don't have to be able to listen to telephone calls.
[17:01.470 --> 17:09.830]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, we've got all kinds of other neat things, including a revelation.
[17:10.430 --> 17:14.930]  [SPEAKER_25]: Not the religious kind, just something that we found by accident.
[17:15.110 --> 17:19.310]  [SPEAKER_25]: And of course, the most important things you always find by accident, just the nature of things.
[17:19.730 --> 17:30.710]  [SPEAKER_25]: Somebody called over to the 2600 offices, the hacker magazine, and happened, just so happened to bounce over to a phone line that was experimenting with caller ID.
[17:30.910 --> 17:31.690]  [SPEAKER_25]: That happens sometimes.
[17:31.690 --> 17:34.410]  [SPEAKER_25]: If one line is busy, it'll bounce over to another one and another one, etc.
[17:34.870 --> 17:36.890]  [SPEAKER_25]: And this person was lucky enough to do that.
[17:36.970 --> 17:40.110]  [SPEAKER_25]: However, they were calling from Washington State.
[17:40.890 --> 17:44.250]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now, as you might know, we've talked about this before.
[17:44.250 --> 17:50.730]  [SPEAKER_25]: We discovered that cable and wireless was passing various caller ID data over the networks.
[17:51.490 --> 17:52.830]  [SPEAKER_25]: But this was different.
[17:53.070 --> 17:55.010]  [SPEAKER_25]: This was not being routed over an 800 number.
[17:55.370 --> 17:59.250]  [SPEAKER_25]: This was being done through another long-distance company.
[17:59.490 --> 17:59.690]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's right.
[17:59.770 --> 18:02.390]  [SPEAKER_25]: Another long-distance company has joined in.
[18:02.850 --> 18:07.630]  [SPEAKER_25]: And what's interesting about this one is that anybody can use this long-distance company.
[18:07.750 --> 18:09.190]  [SPEAKER_25]: You don't have to be a subscriber to them.
[18:09.270 --> 18:14.110]  [SPEAKER_25]: You simply have to put a carrier access code in front of your telephone call.
[18:14.270 --> 18:18.970]  [SPEAKER_25]: And anytime you use this particular company, your number will be transmitted.
[18:19.130 --> 18:23.010]  [SPEAKER_25]: We got a call today from California, California, where caller ID has not been approved.
[18:23.730 --> 18:31.350]  [SPEAKER_25]: In fact, the person from Washington State said that there was no way we could see his number because he had blocked his caller ID.
[18:31.890 --> 18:36.310]  [SPEAKER_25]: He made a specific effort with the phone company to block his number from being transmitted.
[18:36.430 --> 18:36.990]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, guess what?
[18:37.270 --> 18:40.510]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's being transmitted anyway with this phone company.
[18:40.950 --> 18:48.890]  [SPEAKER_25]: So we figured it would be a nice thing to do to let you know about this and have people experiment with it themselves.
[18:49.410 --> 18:54.850]  [SPEAKER_25]: The name of the phone company is kind of a new one to the long-distance business, at least as far as I'm concerned.
[18:55.010 --> 18:56.410]  [SPEAKER_25]: This company has been involved with hardware.
[18:57.050 --> 18:58.470]  [SPEAKER_25]: The name is Wiltel.
[18:58.710 --> 19:00.330]  [SPEAKER_25]: W-I-L-T-E-L.
[19:00.990 --> 19:08.190]  [SPEAKER_25]: And if you preface 10555 before a phone number, you will be able to use that particular long-distance company.
[19:08.630 --> 19:11.210]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's that simple and your number will be transmitted.
[19:11.450 --> 19:14.690]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now, as part of an experiment, we'd like to... we did this once before.
[19:15.350 --> 19:22.190]  [SPEAKER_25]: We'd like for people to use this particular carrier access code and try calling this particular phone number that we're about to give you.
[19:23.010 --> 19:26.570]  [SPEAKER_25]: And next week, we will read off not the phone numbers, not the entire phone number.
[19:26.630 --> 19:27.290]  [SPEAKER_25]: We would never do that.
[19:27.450 --> 19:32.650]  [SPEAKER_25]: But the area code and exchange so that way you can listen and see if your particular number was passed through.
[19:33.070 --> 19:36.770]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's my opinion that virtually every number will be passed through.
[19:36.890 --> 19:37.510]  [SPEAKER_25]: We'll have to see.
[19:38.390 --> 19:40.510]  [SPEAKER_25]: The only way to find out is to experiment like this.
[19:40.590 --> 19:44.870]  [SPEAKER_25]: So far, just about every number that we've tried has gone through from around the country.
[19:45.230 --> 19:51.070]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now, this is frightening because this is the way things are going to be maybe in the next year.
[19:51.270 --> 19:56.190]  [SPEAKER_25]: In the next year, whenever you make a phone call, your number will be transmitted without regard to what you want.
[19:56.570 --> 19:59.830]  [SPEAKER_25]: I mean, we have people here that wanted to block their numbers.
[20:00.050 --> 20:01.690]  [SPEAKER_25]: They can't block their numbers anymore.
[20:01.990 --> 20:02.870]  [SPEAKER_25]: Simple as that.
[20:03.870 --> 20:13.030]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, so the number that we'd like you to try to call, and this is very important too because if a lot of people call it once, most of the numbers won't go through.
[20:22.180 --> 20:31.780]  [SPEAKER_25]: And the number is 10555, area code 516-751-2600.
[20:31.800 --> 20:38.920]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now, as I was saying, if too many people call it once, you'll come in on call waiting and the number won't be registered that way.
[20:38.960 --> 20:41.960]  [SPEAKER_25]: So what we're asking you to do is wait until you hear a pickup.
[20:42.560 --> 20:46.060]  [SPEAKER_25]: And as soon as you hear an answering machine start talking, you can hang up at that point.
[20:46.160 --> 20:47.000]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah, you'll get charged for that.
[20:47.080 --> 20:48.900]  [SPEAKER_25]: You'll probably get charged about 15 cents or something.
[20:49.020 --> 20:50.420]  [SPEAKER_25]: And you'll get... this is the fun part.
[20:50.460 --> 20:54.080]  [SPEAKER_25]: You'll get a special page on your phone bill from this weird company.
[20:54.100 --> 20:56.280]  [SPEAKER_25]: And it'll come on your regular New York telephone bill.
[20:56.860 --> 21:03.820]  [SPEAKER_25]: So especially those people in New Jersey and Connecticut and any other parts of the planet that might be listening to us right now.
[21:04.880 --> 21:09.060]  [SPEAKER_25]: 10555-516-751-2600.
[21:09.400 --> 21:12.780]  [SPEAKER_25]: Try that out, and we'll see how many numbers we're able to get.
[21:13.080 --> 21:19.200]  [SPEAKER_25]: And we'll see if they all get transmitted, if some of them get transmitted, if it's a 50-50 kind of a thing.
[21:19.280 --> 21:22.740]  [SPEAKER_25]: And that way, we'll have a sense as to where this is going.
[21:22.920 --> 21:24.680]  [SPEAKER_25]: This is the only way you can find out things like this.
[21:24.780 --> 21:26.820]  [SPEAKER_25]: And I'm going to prove that to you.
[21:27.300 --> 21:29.860]  [SPEAKER_25]: Let's get a dial tone here.
[21:34.520 --> 21:36.000]  [SPEAKER_25]: We're going to attempt to get information.
[21:41.090 --> 21:42.530]  [SPEAKER_15]: 800 directory, Barbara?
[21:42.830 --> 21:43.850]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yes, have I gotten information?
[21:44.250 --> 21:45.590]  [SPEAKER_15]: This is 800 information.
[21:45.870 --> 21:46.370]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, great.
[21:46.530 --> 21:48.130]  [SPEAKER_25]: I need the number for Wiltel.
[21:48.310 --> 21:50.070]  [SPEAKER_25]: W-I-L-T-E-L.
[21:50.210 --> 21:50.870]  [SPEAKER_25]: They're a phone company.
[21:54.460 --> 21:55.920]  [SPEAKER_14]: Do you know where they're located, sir?
[21:56.440 --> 21:57.320]  [SPEAKER_25]: No, I don't.
[22:04.280 --> 22:12.260]  [SPEAKER_16]: The toll-free number is 800-828-4984.
[22:12.500 --> 22:12.940]  [SPEAKER_16]: Repeat.
[22:13.460 --> 22:15.240]  [SPEAKER_25]: 800-828-4984.
[22:15.260 --> 22:16.160]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, that's not necessary.
[22:16.300 --> 22:16.520]  [SPEAKER_25]: Thank you.
[22:17.160 --> 22:18.580]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, so we have a number for them.
[22:19.380 --> 22:20.320]  [SPEAKER_25]: We're going to call them.
[22:23.460 --> 22:24.360]  [SPEAKER_25]: See what they say.
[22:25.360 --> 22:27.380]  [SPEAKER_25]: Always the best way to find out what's going on.
[22:27.460 --> 22:29.880]  [SPEAKER_00]: Wiltel, all representatives are currently busy.
[22:30.040 --> 22:33.160]  [SPEAKER_00]: Please remain on the line, and your call will be answered in the order received.
[22:34.650 --> 22:35.400]  [SPEAKER_25]: Oh, this is great.
[22:35.450 --> 22:36.100]  [SPEAKER_25]: We have music now.
[22:39.790 --> 22:41.930]  [SPEAKER_25]: Sounds like they're using AT&T True Voice.
[22:43.210 --> 22:45.010]  [SPEAKER_25]: You know, the increased bass response.
[22:55.840 --> 22:56.960]  [SPEAKER_11]: Thank you for calling Wiltel.
[22:57.100 --> 22:57.560]  [SPEAKER_11]: This is Greg.
[22:57.780 --> 22:58.100]  [SPEAKER_11]: May I help you?
[22:58.320 --> 22:58.900]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yes, hi.
[22:59.040 --> 23:04.640]  [SPEAKER_25]: I'd like to know if your particular long-distance service is available to anybody.
[23:04.800 --> 23:07.500]  [SPEAKER_25]: Do you have to subscribe to the service, or can you use a carrier access code?
[23:07.500 --> 23:09.240]  [SPEAKER_11]: You can use a 10555.
[23:09.400 --> 23:10.700]  [SPEAKER_11]: Well, it depends on where you're at.
[23:10.920 --> 23:11.460]  [SPEAKER_25]: New York.
[23:12.060 --> 23:12.600]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yes, you can.
[23:13.000 --> 23:18.260]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, and do you know if your phone number is passed on to caller ID boxes with this service?
[23:18.760 --> 23:19.440]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yes, it is.
[23:19.560 --> 23:20.000]  [SPEAKER_25]: It is.
[23:20.060 --> 23:20.760]  [SPEAKER_25]: On all calls?
[23:23.220 --> 23:24.620]  [SPEAKER_11]: As far as I know, it's all calls.
[23:24.800 --> 23:25.180]  [SPEAKER_25]: I see.
[23:25.260 --> 23:26.640]  [SPEAKER_25]: Do you know if any other company offers that?
[23:27.700 --> 23:29.660]  [SPEAKER_11]: Caller ID, or where they block it?
[23:29.940 --> 23:33.700]  [SPEAKER_25]: No, I'm saying as far as passing the number on, is this the only company that does that?
[23:35.020 --> 23:36.040]  [SPEAKER_11]: I'm sure of the other ones.
[23:36.040 --> 23:36.900]  [SPEAKER_11]: I'm not real sure.
[23:36.900 --> 23:36.940]  [SPEAKER_11]: Sure.
[23:37.240 --> 23:37.480]  [SPEAKER_25]: Uh-huh.
[23:38.140 --> 23:41.460]  [SPEAKER_25]: And do you know how to block that if you don't want to pass your number on?
[23:41.860 --> 23:42.800]  [SPEAKER_11]: To block the caller ID?
[23:43.020 --> 23:43.240]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah.
[23:43.520 --> 23:44.500]  [SPEAKER_11]: We cannot do that.
[23:44.700 --> 23:45.240]  [SPEAKER_25]: You can't do that.
[23:45.260 --> 23:48.500]  [SPEAKER_25]: So if I make a call with WillTel, the number will be passed on no matter what, is that...?
[23:48.500 --> 24:00.380]  [SPEAKER_11]: Right, and it's going to have to... I believe all the other carriers are like that, too, because what happens is we get the telephone number from the local telephone company, and then it goes over our network.
[24:00.540 --> 24:00.840]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh-huh.
[24:00.920 --> 24:05.860]  [SPEAKER_11]: If we scramble it up, the local telephone company will not know where to send the phone number.
[24:05.860 --> 24:06.660]  [SPEAKER_25]: I see.
[24:07.020 --> 24:08.720]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, so you don't scramble it for that reason.
[24:09.000 --> 24:09.180]  [SPEAKER_11]: Right.
[24:09.480 --> 24:09.800]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay.
[24:10.360 --> 24:11.460]  [SPEAKER_25]: All right, and where are you located?
[24:11.840 --> 24:13.360]  [SPEAKER_11]: We're based out of Tulsa, Oklahoma.
[24:13.680 --> 24:14.020]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay.
[24:14.240 --> 24:16.280]  [SPEAKER_25]: And have you been in the long-distance business for very long?
[24:18.340 --> 24:19.660]  [SPEAKER_11]: About... let me think here.
[24:20.680 --> 24:21.820]  [SPEAKER_11]: About 10 years, maybe.
[24:22.140 --> 24:22.640]  [SPEAKER_25]: 10 years.
[24:23.220 --> 24:24.000]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, great.
[24:24.620 --> 24:25.660]  [SPEAKER_25]: All right, well, thank you for your help.
[24:25.800 --> 24:26.180]  [SPEAKER_25]: You're welcome.
[24:26.380 --> 24:26.580]  [SPEAKER_25]: Bye-bye.
[24:27.660 --> 24:33.140]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, that's interesting, because I know I dialed 10555, and I got another company not too long ago.
[24:33.500 --> 24:38.300]  [SPEAKER_25]: So, if they've been in the long-distance business for 10 years, it's been a secret as far as I can see.
[24:39.360 --> 24:44.180]  [SPEAKER_25]: But, as you heard, they know they're doing this.
[24:44.260 --> 24:47.320]  [SPEAKER_25]: They know they're passing on the number around the country.
[24:47.900 --> 24:49.400]  [SPEAKER_25]: They think other phone companies do it.
[24:49.420 --> 24:50.600]  [SPEAKER_25]: Other phone companies do not do this.
[24:50.660 --> 24:51.620]  [SPEAKER_25]: Cable and wireless does.
[24:51.620 --> 24:57.320]  [SPEAKER_25]: However, you have to subscribe to them, and I don't think it's as far-reaching as will tell.
[24:57.440 --> 24:58.420]  [SPEAKER_25]: So, this is something new.
[24:58.600 --> 25:05.820]  [SPEAKER_25]: This is another step towards nationwide caller ID, and there doesn't seem to be any way to stop it, other than not using this company.
[25:06.020 --> 25:14.560]  [SPEAKER_25]: So, again, to participate in the experiment, and you can do this, because we'll have the line forwarding up until about, I'd say about midnight or so.
[25:14.560 --> 25:27.420]  [SPEAKER_25]: So, between now and midnight, if you call that particular number and let it ring a couple of times and pick up, we'll see if your particular phone number gets passed on, and we can tell you next week what exchanges and what area codes made it through.
[25:28.040 --> 25:32.650]  [SPEAKER_25]: The number, 10555-516-751-2600.
[25:33.340 --> 25:36.480]  [SPEAKER_25]: You might have to put a 1 before the 516, too, depending on where you're calling from.
[25:38.040 --> 25:40.040]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, more exciting news.
[25:40.040 --> 25:50.800]  [SPEAKER_25]: This is also from the New York Times of February 11th, concerning the story that we reported last week, the CERT Advisory on Internet Break-Ins.
[25:51.200 --> 25:53.660]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now, again, this is not a new story.
[25:53.780 --> 25:55.520]  [SPEAKER_25]: This has been going on for years.
[25:55.720 --> 26:03.940]  [SPEAKER_25]: People writing programs that can capture information and thereby capture people's login attempts and get their passwords and all kinds of things like that.
[26:03.940 --> 26:10.860]  [SPEAKER_25]: So, the thing that makes it news is when the Computer Emergency Response Team puts out a bulletin and tells people that there's a problem.
[26:11.380 --> 26:22.580]  [SPEAKER_25]: Computer security experts say they now believe that a recent rash of break-ins on the global Internet web of computer networks was an organized effort to crack the security of the world's busiest computer systems.
[26:22.780 --> 26:24.480]  [SPEAKER_25]: An organized effort.
[26:24.840 --> 26:30.760]  [SPEAKER_25]: But they remain baffled by the motives of the unknown intruders who stole tens of thousands of passwords.
[26:30.760 --> 26:34.040]  [SPEAKER_25]: It had all the trappings of an orchestrated effort, said L.
[26:34.160 --> 26:37.860]  [SPEAKER_25]: Dane Gary, manager of the Computer Emergency Response Team's center.
[26:38.220 --> 26:49.600]  [SPEAKER_25]: Mr. Gary, whose group sent a warning about two weeks ago to all network administrators on the Internet, said the break-ins apparently began sporadically last summer on isolated computers.
[26:49.780 --> 26:54.840]  [SPEAKER_25]: But recently, the assault intensified, turning to computers that were strategic gateways to the Internet.
[26:54.840 --> 27:00.040]  [SPEAKER_25]: One such computer was operated by Panix of New York City, a major Internet service provider.
[27:00.480 --> 27:05.880]  [SPEAKER_25]: Panix reported that 300 other computers were compromised as a result of the security breach in the Panix computer.
[27:06.040 --> 27:12.260]  [SPEAKER_25]: So, you have one security breach, it gets passed on, and it's kind of like a snowball effect sometimes.
[27:12.260 --> 27:25.580]  [SPEAKER_25]: The Internet, which is defined as a web of some 10,000 networks that include military, government, academic, and corporate computer systems around the world, is used by an estimated 15 million people.
[27:26.340 --> 27:43.140]  [SPEAKER_25]: The Computer Emergency Response Team, based at Carnegie Mellon University in Pittsburgh, was set up with federal financing five years ago to monitor the security of the Internet and other national computer networks, especially government and military networks.
[27:43.340 --> 27:51.760]  [SPEAKER_25]: The Response Team's warning came on February 3rd, after officials recognized a surge in break-in reports from companies known as Internet service providers.
[27:52.400 --> 27:55.620]  [SPEAKER_25]: There are an estimated 500 service providers in the United States.
[27:55.920 --> 28:01.320]  [SPEAKER_25]: Each is a gateway to the Internet for as few as a dozen or as many as 10,000 or more customers.
[28:02.100 --> 28:11.640]  [SPEAKER_25]: Other security experts said that while the scope of the assault was surprising, the number of computers, their strategic importance on the Internet, and the timing of the break-ins, the fact that it occurred was not.
[28:11.800 --> 28:14.680]  [SPEAKER_25]: The weaknesses exploited were well-known in computer networking.
[28:15.000 --> 28:21.620]  [SPEAKER_25]: The actual method used is nothing new, said Pushpenda Mota, director of engineering at Surfnet.
[28:21.760 --> 28:23.600]  [SPEAKER_25]: An Internet service company in San Diego.
[28:23.820 --> 28:33.660]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's not really a hole or a bug, but a feature that can be exploited for many things, including by network operators for troubleshooting or capturing information about activity on the network.
[28:34.420 --> 28:36.800]  [SPEAKER_25]: Mr. Mota said his system was not affected.
[28:37.860 --> 28:39.720]  [SPEAKER_25]: I don't know how he's so sure about that.
[28:39.980 --> 28:45.820]  [SPEAKER_25]: Security experts said all Internet users should immediately change their passwords and make a habit of doing so frequently.
[28:45.820 --> 28:54.440]  [SPEAKER_25]: In general terms, the intruders did their work remotely using computer networks to crack the security on one or more computers that act as gateways to the Internet.
[28:54.680 --> 29:00.560]  [SPEAKER_25]: They installed a secret sniffer program disguised to avoid detection that captures information on network activity.
[29:00.780 --> 29:06.220]  [SPEAKER_25]: The sniffer was put in promiscuous mode to snare any information that crossed its path.
[29:06.840 --> 29:07.940]  [SPEAKER_25]: Promiscuous mode, yeah.
[29:07.940 --> 29:19.060]  [SPEAKER_25]: The passive sniffer grabbed the first 128 characters of every message that passed through the computer, including the identity of the user, his or her password, and the identity of the destination computer.
[29:19.720 --> 29:22.300]  [SPEAKER_25]: Later, the program could play back the instructions.
[29:22.300 --> 29:27.300]  [SPEAKER_25]: If the password had not been changed in the meantime, the intruder gained access to another computer.
[29:27.500 --> 29:28.900]  [SPEAKER_25]: The process was then repeated.
[29:29.100 --> 29:32.780]  [SPEAKER_25]: And because the computers that were targets were Internet gateways, the effect was amplified.
[29:32.780 --> 29:40.900]  [SPEAKER_25]: A single successful sniffer could collect thousands of passwords and thus, in theory, compromise the security of thousands of computers worldwide.
[29:41.340 --> 29:43.840]  [SPEAKER_25]: The question is, who did it?
[29:45.200 --> 29:46.480]  [SPEAKER_25]: This is the interesting part.
[29:46.900 --> 29:52.200]  [SPEAKER_25]: Mr. Gary of the response team says there are about 50 people who really have the capacity to defeat the system.
[29:52.420 --> 29:57.000]  [SPEAKER_25]: At least that's the number we get from our friends in law enforcement and investigative agencies.
[29:57.880 --> 30:03.920]  [SPEAKER_25]: Those are the ones who have the skill, the desire, the energy, and the persistence to go after the network until they get the job done.
[30:04.540 --> 30:09.260]  [SPEAKER_25]: But there are about 300 or 400 wannabes who will copy whatever those gurus do.
[30:10.100 --> 30:13.460]  [SPEAKER_25]: Perhaps more troubling is that there is no apparent motive for the attacks.
[30:14.340 --> 30:22.300]  [SPEAKER_25]: Officials of the response team said there had been no reports of intruders using the stolen information for malicious or criminal activities.
[30:23.500 --> 30:26.260]  [SPEAKER_25]: Almost like they're disappointed, you know, they want to see a crime committed.
[30:26.440 --> 30:30.680]  [SPEAKER_25]: But the fact that somebody would just go in and do this for the challenge of it, that's unacceptable.
[30:32.220 --> 30:32.980]  [SPEAKER_25]: What would you do?
[30:32.980 --> 30:44.480]  [SPEAKER_25]: If you had the ability, if you could figure it out, if you could figure out a way to capture all this information and compromise security on hundreds, if not thousands of computers, would you try it out?
[30:44.660 --> 30:46.920]  [SPEAKER_25]: Would you want to see if you could actually do this?
[30:47.020 --> 30:49.680]  [SPEAKER_25]: If you could actually get all this sensitive information?
[30:51.420 --> 30:53.600]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's one thing to try to do that.
[30:53.740 --> 30:57.560]  [SPEAKER_25]: And then it's another thing to see what you do with it once you have accomplished this.
[31:00.530 --> 31:03.530]  [SPEAKER_25]: I'm sure we'll be hearing more about that in the very near future.
[31:06.710 --> 31:08.170]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, what else do we have here?
[31:08.250 --> 31:10.750]  [SPEAKER_25]: We have a couple of other interesting stories.
[31:10.950 --> 31:17.090]  [SPEAKER_25]: This is, again, not to pick on the Clinton administration, but they are the current administration.
[31:17.090 --> 31:21.350]  [SPEAKER_25]: And they, I guess, have to be picked on because they're the ones in charge.
[31:22.590 --> 31:24.910]  [SPEAKER_25]: You know, that old information superhighway.
[31:24.990 --> 31:28.890]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, the thing with data is that you can always manipulate data.
[31:28.890 --> 31:33.450]  [SPEAKER_25]: You can always change what you say and make it seem as if it never happened.
[31:33.750 --> 31:34.630]  [SPEAKER_25]: And you know what?
[31:35.050 --> 31:37.850]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's exactly what seems to be going on with the Clinton administration.
[31:38.230 --> 31:39.170]  [SPEAKER_25]: Listen to this.
[31:39.690 --> 31:41.310]  [SPEAKER_25]: This comes from the Associated Press.
[31:41.310 --> 31:53.590]  [SPEAKER_25]: The White House deleted the word lie from a press release, criticizing a New York scholar who took issue with its health care plan and issued a sanitized version over its computerized information service.
[31:53.910 --> 32:03.630]  [SPEAKER_25]: The electronic version replaced references such as blatant lie with far milder and less controversial language, including, that is wrong.
[32:04.990 --> 32:11.750]  [SPEAKER_25]: One White House official told a computer subscriber, we do not alter documents, and suggested the first version had never been published.
[32:12.670 --> 32:20.250]  [SPEAKER_25]: Another White House official stood by the first version Thursday, while yet another called it a mistake and backed the milder electronic version.
[32:20.750 --> 32:29.870]  [SPEAKER_25]: In what one aide called a comedy of errors, the White House found itself defending two separate versions of its attack on scholar Elizabeth McCauley of New York.
[32:30.570 --> 32:42.690]  [SPEAKER_25]: Justin Roberts, a California attorney and computer buff who got an electronic mail message from the White House disputing the accuracy of the first press release, said he was dismayed that officials would alter the document in the computer version.
[32:43.070 --> 32:48.330]  [SPEAKER_25]: Let's not use the information superhighway to distort public documents, Roberts said in an interview.
[32:48.730 --> 32:57.930]  [SPEAKER_25]: It all began on January 31st, when the White House distributed a 10-page press release blasting McCauley's piece in the New Republic magazine.
[32:57.930 --> 33:07.150]  [SPEAKER_25]: Her article had suggested the Clinton health care plan would restrict people's choices of physicians, limit their access to specialists, and deny new cures to those over age 65.
[33:07.690 --> 33:19.810]  [SPEAKER_25]: The White House took strong issue in its initial press release, widely distributed in Washington, using the word lie four times, as well as phrases such as this is ridiculous and deliberately inaccurate.
[33:20.590 --> 33:26.590]  [SPEAKER_25]: The episode created something of a tempest, giving the article far wider attention than it would have otherwise received.
[33:27.270 --> 33:40.310]  [SPEAKER_25]: The author, a fellow at the conservative Manhattan Institute, and the author of several books on government, said she resented being called a liar by the White House, and she defended her views in a series of newspaper and television interviews.
[33:41.490 --> 33:52.310]  [SPEAKER_25]: Roberts, an attorney in Lafayette, California, near San Francisco, said his curiosity was whetted by a newspaper article, so he went to his computer and dialed up White House documents on the Internet.
[33:52.850 --> 33:58.650]  [SPEAKER_25]: The Internet is a worldwide connection of computer networks, linking an estimated 6 million users.
[33:58.770 --> 34:03.550]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, that's down from the 15 million the New York Times estimates, but I guess that's just something that got lost.
[34:04.230 --> 34:09.850]  [SPEAKER_25]: Anyway, the White House is also on the Internet, and they routinely put their press releases and other documents into the system.
[34:10.330 --> 34:16.070]  [SPEAKER_25]: But Roberts said he was amazed that the computer version press release didn't contain the word lie at all.
[34:16.590 --> 34:21.190]  [SPEAKER_25]: He said he sent the computer message to the White House asking why they had all to the document.
[34:21.450 --> 34:22.450]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now, here's the surprising part.
[34:22.490 --> 34:23.190]  [SPEAKER_25]: He got a reply.
[34:23.790 --> 34:30.150]  [SPEAKER_25]: I mean, those of us that send computer messages to the White House, we might get a form letter back, but he got a real reply.
[34:30.330 --> 34:32.070]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's, I think, the most amazing part of this story.
[34:32.330 --> 34:41.090]  [SPEAKER_25]: He got a computer mail response from Jonathan Gill, a White House official who oversees special computer projects, raising questions about the existence of the earlier version.
[34:42.030 --> 34:44.490]  [SPEAKER_25]: Roberts made a copy available to the Associated Press.
[34:44.490 --> 34:51.490]  [SPEAKER_25]: It said, You should know that we do not edit or alter documents posted to the computer servers that they were using.
[34:51.930 --> 34:57.390]  [SPEAKER_25]: It would appear that the reporter in question may have obtained an unpublished earlier draft with a different vocabulary.
[34:57.670 --> 35:01.310]  [SPEAKER_25]: Again, we do not alter documents, signed Jock Gill.
[35:02.530 --> 35:04.930]  [SPEAKER_25]: But the White House did alter the document.
[35:05.130 --> 35:08.230]  [SPEAKER_25]: Other officials conceded Thursday when pressed by the Associated Press.
[35:08.410 --> 35:12.370]  [SPEAKER_25]: We certainly don't deny that we put out the original documents at Press Secretary D.D.
[35:12.490 --> 35:12.790]  [SPEAKER_25]: Myers.
[35:13.310 --> 35:15.710]  [SPEAKER_25]: There's a different version running on the computer service.
[35:15.850 --> 35:17.250]  [SPEAKER_25]: We reserve the right to edit.
[35:17.710 --> 35:20.910]  [SPEAKER_25]: Furthermore, she said, We stand by the draft that was put out initially.
[35:21.690 --> 35:29.230]  [SPEAKER_25]: But Jeff Eller, White House Media Affairs Director who oversees health care issues, stood by the newer sanitized version instead.
[35:29.510 --> 35:33.310]  [SPEAKER_25]: He said the original one, with the words lies, never should have been issued.
[35:33.650 --> 35:35.110]  [SPEAKER_25]: It was my fault, he said.
[35:35.270 --> 35:37.930]  [SPEAKER_25]: The one that went out with the word lie inadvertently went out.
[35:38.070 --> 35:38.770]  [SPEAKER_25]: It was a mistake.
[35:39.390 --> 35:42.590]  [SPEAKER_25]: Later, he said that the White House stands by both versions.
[35:43.650 --> 35:53.670]  [SPEAKER_25]: Meanwhile, Gill, who sent the message asserting we never alter documents, said he had been unaware that a different version had been issued first by the White House press office when he sent the message to Roberts.
[35:55.510 --> 35:59.270]  [SPEAKER_25]: Originally, the White House had branded as a blatant lie.
[35:59.710 --> 36:06.230]  [SPEAKER_25]: McCowey's assertion that escaping the Clinton health care system and paying a specialist out of pocket for tests would be almost impossible.
[36:06.550 --> 36:09.410]  [SPEAKER_25]: The altered version says instead, said that is wrong.
[36:09.950 --> 36:22.150]  [SPEAKER_25]: In responding to the article's claim that the health care is based, biased rather, towards lower cost, not highest quality care, the White House replaced another lie with not true.
[36:23.450 --> 36:27.590]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, it might be an innocent mistake.
[36:27.850 --> 36:29.530]  [SPEAKER_25]: It might be incompetence.
[36:29.690 --> 36:32.610]  [SPEAKER_25]: But it does point to something that could be very dangerous.
[36:32.870 --> 36:34.730]  [SPEAKER_25]: Altering electronic documents.
[36:35.130 --> 36:38.970]  [SPEAKER_25]: Saying something never happened when people know that it did.
[36:40.710 --> 36:41.550]  [SPEAKER_25]: Rewriting history.
[36:41.990 --> 36:42.710]  [SPEAKER_25]: Almost literally.
[36:44.330 --> 36:48.190]  [SPEAKER_25]: Something we have to keep an eye out for and I'm glad there's people out there that are doing just that.
[36:48.890 --> 36:50.230]  [SPEAKER_25]: I'm glad we were able to tell you about it.
[36:50.410 --> 36:53.070]  [SPEAKER_25]: Who knows what ten years from now it will bring.
[36:56.290 --> 36:56.910]  [SPEAKER_25]: I don't know.
[36:57.030 --> 37:03.590]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's something about having government knowing how to use high technology to its advantage.
[37:03.590 --> 37:06.390]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's something about that that just worries me.
[37:07.230 --> 37:13.430]  [SPEAKER_25]: because well gosh I guess I guess it's no secret that government can abuse things.
[37:13.650 --> 37:17.470]  [SPEAKER_25]: In fact government tends to abuse just about everything that it can get its hands on.
[37:18.050 --> 37:25.270]  [SPEAKER_25]: And once you abuse the net once you abuse high technology you suddenly become a lot more powerful.
[37:27.350 --> 37:27.870]  [SPEAKER_25]: All right.
[37:27.970 --> 37:28.850]  [SPEAKER_25]: We're going to take some phone calls.
[37:28.950 --> 37:40.030]  [SPEAKER_25]: 212-279-3400 for whatever might be on your mind as far as this kind of thing as far as other high-tech issues telephone issues computer issues privacy issues that kind of thing.
[37:40.390 --> 37:50.290]  [SPEAKER_25]: One item that has just happened this just happened today we just found out about this it's bad news from 2600 magazine.
[37:51.710 --> 37:57.270]  [SPEAKER_25]: Apparently as some of you know 2600 magazine is distributed in various places.
[37:57.890 --> 38:08.270]  [SPEAKER_25]: And you can find it in some very strange places too including some bookstores that you wouldn't really expect to see it in like Barnes & Nobles Tower Books places like that.
[38:08.310 --> 38:10.210]  [SPEAKER_25]: Actually you can expect to see anything in Tower Books.
[38:10.370 --> 38:15.910]  [SPEAKER_25]: But one of the most unusual places was a computer chain store known as CompUSA.
[38:16.670 --> 38:25.230]  [SPEAKER_25]: And quite a few people were finding 2600 for the first time there and getting turned on to the world of computer hackers and freedom of information and all that kind of thing.
[38:25.470 --> 38:50.230]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well apparently those days are over because today we just learned that CompUSA has taken offense at a story we don't know what story they're talking about they took offense to an article in our latest issue about decoding it doesn't exactly narrow it down too much an article about decoding and the crux of the matter is they have decided to permanently remove 2600 from their stores.
[38:51.390 --> 39:02.930]  [SPEAKER_25]: And that's that's something that's something to hit somebody with they're offended by an article so they're cutting off 100% all their supplies to all their customers of this magazine.
[39:03.310 --> 39:31.870]  [SPEAKER_25]: I don't know I'd like to know what article it is they're talking about was it about cellular phones was it about 9x voicemail what what exactly was it that troubled CompUSA so much that they felt they had to get this thing out of their stores immediately or have all kinds of dire consequences I don't know that's that's bad news because it's always good to have people waking up and seeing you for
[39:31.870 --> 39:51.930]  [SPEAKER_25]: the first time and getting turned on to something and to have a powerful entity just kind of turn that channel off that's not a good thing not a good thing and something that deserves to be known alright 212-279-3400 that's our telephone number and we're here to take your phone calls so So,
[39:52.090 --> 39:53.390]  [SPEAKER_25]: let's get started.
[39:53.950 --> 39:54.570]  [SPEAKER_25]: Good evening.
[39:54.710 --> 39:54.950]  [SPEAKER_25]: You're on.
[39:56.170 --> 39:56.610]  [SPEAKER_05]: Hi.
[39:57.790 --> 39:59.930]  [SPEAKER_05]: I... I'm going to turn this thing off.
[40:00.190 --> 40:02.530]  [SPEAKER_05]: I heard that woman who wrote that article.
[40:02.650 --> 40:06.490]  [SPEAKER_05]: She works for the Wall Street Journal in addition to being a member of that think tank.
[40:07.010 --> 40:09.010]  [SPEAKER_05]: And she was on an NYC interview.
[40:09.250 --> 40:14.130]  [SPEAKER_05]: And she's a real sort of right-wing, pro-business, pro-insurance lobby.
[40:14.130 --> 40:23.130]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I suspect that the information in her articles probably were factually correct in some very strict interpretation.
[40:23.370 --> 40:28.730]  [SPEAKER_05]: But the gist of what she was saying was, in fact, to distort most of what the Clinton bill is about.
[40:28.870 --> 40:32.490]  [SPEAKER_05]: So I think she probably was lying, which brings me to the point related to your program.
[40:32.910 --> 40:37.910]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I think the mere fact that you believe what you're saying doesn't mean it's true.
[40:37.990 --> 40:39.490]  [SPEAKER_05]: In other words, what is truth?
[40:40.330 --> 40:41.490]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, hold on a second.
[40:41.490 --> 40:49.130]  [SPEAKER_25]: What we're focusing on here is that the Clinton administration put out something, and then they said they didn't put it out, and then it was later found out that they did put it out.
[40:49.210 --> 40:58.470]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, I'm sure each of the spokespeople who said what they were saying thought they were saying the truth, because when you're dealing with information that's in cyberspace, it's all in a state of electronic flux.
[40:58.610 --> 41:02.250]  [SPEAKER_05]: And you've got one person writing in the first draft of something on a computer.
[41:02.250 --> 41:03.450]  [SPEAKER_05]: There's no hard copy.
[41:03.450 --> 41:14.050]  [SPEAKER_05]: And someone sends out what's in that computer through faxes and data transmission lines to all these different news sources as a news release.
[41:14.210 --> 41:18.130]  [SPEAKER_05]: Then somebody else modifies that and says, no, that's a little bit too strong.
[41:18.130 --> 41:19.470]  [SPEAKER_05]: Let's change it.
[41:19.610 --> 41:20.990]  [SPEAKER_05]: So what is truth?
[41:21.130 --> 41:23.830]  [SPEAKER_05]: In other words, the first thing they sent out was a mistake.
[41:24.730 --> 41:28.390]  [SPEAKER_05]: So I think you're being a little bit hard on the administration, although I'm no great fan of Clinton.
[41:28.390 --> 41:34.690]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, now, okay, yeah, you might be right about that, and, you know, I don't really think that there is any ill intent this time.
[41:34.890 --> 41:48.650]  [SPEAKER_25]: But the technology is such that it's very simple to insert that ill intent and to do this deliberately, to put out a document one day in the future and then withdraw that document and say, no, it never existed or alter it in some way.
[41:48.770 --> 41:52.230]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, I think this is the great moral crux of the issue that you spoke of earlier.
[41:52.230 --> 42:08.670]  [SPEAKER_05]: When you criticized the law enforcement people for being suspicious of digitized data and information flowing through these channels that they could not possibly access because they didn't know the encryption codes, and their feeling is that they don't know what's going on,
[42:08.790 --> 42:14.430]  [SPEAKER_05]: and that scares them, in the same way when you don't know what's going on with the administration, it scares you.
[42:14.690 --> 42:16.790]  [SPEAKER_05]: And one of the results of this...
[42:16.790 --> 42:18.210]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's not not knowing what's going on.
[42:18.210 --> 42:22.290]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's not knowing exactly what's going on and knowing that somebody is trying to pull the wool over your eyes.
[42:22.430 --> 42:25.810]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's what's annoying and frustrating and potentially scary.
[42:25.970 --> 42:39.730]  [SPEAKER_05]: And the whole thing with the numbers showing on the phone book and on your electronic phone or whatever, I think this whole electronic information age thing is creating a whole bunch of paranoia, and everybody's trying to out-snoop the other.
[42:40.150 --> 42:43.170]  [SPEAKER_05]: And there's something we really have to work out around, all these issues.
[42:43.270 --> 42:44.810]  [SPEAKER_05]: Otherwise, we're in big trouble in the future.
[42:44.810 --> 42:59.490]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah, well, I agree that there's an unprecedented amount of paranoia going on, but there's also a lot of facts that aren't being told to people, and people deserve to know when their phone numbers are being passed all over the place, when their names are being given out,
[43:00.390 --> 43:02.910]  [SPEAKER_25]: you know, when their privacy is being invaded in any way.
[43:03.050 --> 43:03.370]  [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, yeah.
[43:03.410 --> 43:10.450]  [SPEAKER_05]: The whole thing with caller ID that I really object to is, why should you pay four or five bucks a month extra for something that costs them next to nothing to give you?
[43:10.490 --> 43:12.030]  [SPEAKER_05]: It ought to be a free service to everybody.
[43:15.230 --> 43:27.630]  [SPEAKER_05]: But for them to make it an exclusive thing available to those people who can afford to spend 60 bucks for a box, you know, and five bucks a month extra, I think they're using it as a marketing rip-off ploy.
[43:27.790 --> 43:33.870]  [SPEAKER_25]: Right, and it's also proof that even if you block your number, that data is still being sent out in some form.
[43:34.410 --> 43:36.250]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's something that people deserve to know.
[43:36.570 --> 43:37.670]  [SPEAKER_05]: Anyway, I'll let you go.
[43:37.830 --> 43:38.590]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, thanks for calling.
[43:39.610 --> 43:40.870]  [SPEAKER_25]: Good evening, you're on Off the Hook.
[43:41.510 --> 43:42.370]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yes, Emmanuel.
[43:42.570 --> 43:43.070]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yes, go ahead.
[43:43.070 --> 43:44.430]  [SPEAKER_13]: Fantastic program.
[43:44.650 --> 43:44.990]  [SPEAKER_25]: Thank you.
[43:46.270 --> 43:49.430]  [SPEAKER_13]: That thing about the White House and the press release is pretty funny.
[43:49.670 --> 43:50.930]  [SPEAKER_13]: It reminds me of something.
[43:51.070 --> 43:57.830]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's a good thing the Reagan administration years ago didn't have access to the Internet because they were doing this sort of thing every day.
[43:57.930 --> 44:00.350]  [SPEAKER_13]: They would issue statements and then deny them the next day.
[44:00.530 --> 44:03.110]  [SPEAKER_25]: Can you imagine the Reagan administration with its hands on the...
[44:03.110 --> 44:05.590]  [SPEAKER_25]: I mean, I kind of like to see what they would try, you know?
[44:05.750 --> 44:08.190]  [SPEAKER_25]: In a way, I regret it, but I guess it's...
[44:08.190 --> 44:09.290]  [SPEAKER_25]: Or the Nixon administration.
[44:09.470 --> 44:10.370]  [SPEAKER_25]: Oh, can you imagine that?
[44:10.370 --> 44:16.090]  [SPEAKER_13]: They were, you know, the Reagan administration was, like, denying everything they said the next day all the time.
[44:16.210 --> 44:17.070]  [SPEAKER_13]: They weren't even on the Internet.
[44:17.450 --> 44:22.210]  [SPEAKER_13]: But that was really funny the way you presented it, and I, you know, I think you have a good point there, too.
[44:22.630 --> 44:32.270]  [SPEAKER_13]: On the other hand, I don't agree with the other caller because I think concerning the health care plan, and I think the Clinton plan is definitely designed to limit your choice to providers.
[44:32.430 --> 44:33.530]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's one of the purposes of it.
[44:33.810 --> 44:35.970]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah, well, you see, that's not the issue.
[44:36.090 --> 44:40.330]  [SPEAKER_25]: I don't really... I mean, I care about the health care thing, but that's not the intent here to talk about that.
[44:40.550 --> 44:44.690]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's the fact that somebody would put out something and then say they didn't put it out and almost be believed.
[44:44.850 --> 44:46.010]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's the issue here.
[44:46.130 --> 44:46.490]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, of course.
[44:46.530 --> 44:49.930]  [SPEAKER_13]: I don't want to get into the whole thing, but I do have a question about phones.
[44:49.930 --> 44:57.070]  [SPEAKER_13]: I was in the city recently, and I know that certain public phones you can't receive a phone call on.
[44:57.170 --> 44:57.610]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's right.
[44:57.730 --> 45:06.630]  [SPEAKER_13]: So I needed to call someone on their beeper and get them to call me back, and I didn't know whether the phone I was going to use could receive calls.
[45:06.690 --> 45:21.590]  [SPEAKER_13]: So what I did was I dialed the operator, I got NYNEX operator, and I asked the operator, and the operator said, well, I don't know, but I'll try to call you back on the phone, and if I get through to call you back, then that means the phone receives calls.
[45:21.770 --> 45:22.590]  [SPEAKER_13]: So I said, fine.
[45:23.090 --> 45:29.230]  [SPEAKER_13]: And sure enough, like 10 seconds later, she called me back, and I said, okay, I'll use this phone because I can get a call back.
[45:30.090 --> 45:35.770]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, I called the beeper, you know, and I waited and waited and waited, and I never got a call back.
[45:35.770 --> 45:37.330]  [SPEAKER_13]: So finally I said, let me check this.
[45:37.530 --> 45:51.070]  [SPEAKER_13]: I went to a public phone, another one right next to it, tried to call the phone I was on, and sure enough, a message comes on saying the number you are trying to call is inoperative for incoming calls.
[45:51.910 --> 45:52.390]  [SPEAKER_25]: Right.
[45:52.750 --> 46:02.510]  [SPEAKER_13]: I was angry about that because I had been trying to reach someone and getting them to call me, and I specifically checked first, and apparently the operator did not know what she was talking about.
[46:02.510 --> 46:17.170]  [SPEAKER_25]: You see, every telephone has a ringer in it, and by calling the operator, you can have the operator ring back to that particular ringer, but it doesn't check to see if that line is restricted in a particular way and can't receive real phone calls.
[46:17.310 --> 46:27.670]  [SPEAKER_25]: The best way to do it is what you did in the end, to call the number from either another phone, or even if you call it from your own phone and it's busy, that's a good indication that it's going to ring because it can't be busy if there's a recording on there.
[46:27.890 --> 46:31.310]  [SPEAKER_13]: I guess I was duped to believe the operator knew what they were doing.
[46:31.530 --> 46:31.890]  [SPEAKER_25]: Uh-huh.
[46:32.030 --> 46:33.930]  [SPEAKER_25]: There are some phones, though, and you've got to be careful of this.
[46:33.930 --> 46:38.310]  [SPEAKER_25]: There are some phones that will ring, but the ringer doesn't work.
[46:38.390 --> 46:41.590]  [SPEAKER_25]: So you have to keep picking up every few seconds to see if your call is coming through.
[46:42.650 --> 46:45.090]  [SPEAKER_13]: You mean someone is calling you, but you can't hear it ringing?
[46:45.230 --> 46:45.550]  [SPEAKER_25]: Exactly.
[46:46.550 --> 46:46.910]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah.
[46:47.210 --> 46:48.670]  [SPEAKER_25]: So you've got to be careful of those, too.
[46:48.770 --> 46:50.670]  [SPEAKER_25]: But that's better.
[46:50.790 --> 46:53.630]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's better than having a phone where you can't get a call back no matter what.
[46:53.710 --> 46:58.150]  [SPEAKER_25]: And it's a real disservice to customers not to be able to be called at a payphone.
[46:58.210 --> 46:59.450]  [SPEAKER_25]: I mean, what are you supposed to do?
[46:59.730 --> 47:00.190]  [SPEAKER_13]: I know.
[47:00.310 --> 47:01.130]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's really frustrating.
[47:01.130 --> 47:05.570]  [SPEAKER_25]: Of course, by beeping somebody and waiting at a payphone, you know that makes you a drug dealer, right?
[47:05.810 --> 47:06.510]  Oh, yeah, right.
[47:06.690 --> 47:11.510]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah, that's the only possible thing that NYNEX could think you were doing at a payphone by beeping somebody.
[47:11.890 --> 47:15.770]  [SPEAKER_25]: And that's why they're changing payphones to rotary so that you can't possibly do that.
[47:16.550 --> 47:19.070]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's going to cut drugs in half in this country, you know?
[47:19.310 --> 47:20.370]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's going to solve everything.
[47:21.070 --> 47:22.390]  [SPEAKER_13]: We all have the cellular phones.
[47:22.890 --> 47:23.590]  [SPEAKER_25]: Oh, yeah.
[47:24.170 --> 47:26.150]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, well, I guess that's the end of that.
[47:26.370 --> 47:27.270]  [SPEAKER_13]: Thanks a lot, Emmanuel.
[47:27.470 --> 47:27.890]  [SPEAKER_13]: Great show.
[47:28.010 --> 47:28.550]  [SPEAKER_25]: Thanks for calling.
[47:28.550 --> 47:29.090]  [SPEAKER_25]: Bye-bye.
[47:29.970 --> 47:32.510]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah, Simplistic Solutions, that's their trademark.
[47:33.310 --> 47:47.090]  [SPEAKER_25]: You know, one thing that I wanted to do, I wanted to ask New York Telephone, now that you're installing, or NYNEX, actually, now that you're installing all of these payphones and making them rotary only instead of Touch-Tone, well, since Touch-Tone service costs so much money,
[47:47.090 --> 47:51.290]  [SPEAKER_25]: what are you doing with all the savings that you're getting from having all these rotary phones there?
[47:51.530 --> 47:55.170]  [SPEAKER_25]: You know, you must be saving a bundle by not having to provide Touch-Tone service to those phones.
[47:55.170 --> 47:57.990]  [SPEAKER_25]: So let's share some of that profit there.
[47:58.310 --> 47:59.070]  [SPEAKER_25]: I don't know.
[47:59.170 --> 47:59.830]  [SPEAKER_25]: Would I get an answer?
[48:01.910 --> 48:02.670]  [SPEAKER_25]: Probably not.
[48:03.150 --> 48:03.670]  [SPEAKER_25]: Good evening.
[48:03.790 --> 48:04.170]  [SPEAKER_25]: You're on the air.
[48:04.510 --> 48:04.850]  [SPEAKER_06]: Hello.
[48:04.990 --> 48:05.250]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yes.
[48:05.410 --> 48:06.670]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'm going to find out...
[48:13.340 --> 48:18.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: Is there any way I can block that beeper from showing my number on the display?
[48:18.480 --> 48:18.880]  [SPEAKER_25]: Of course.
[48:19.120 --> 48:22.420]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah, because beepers don't record the number that's calling them.
[48:22.460 --> 48:23.820]  [SPEAKER_25]: They record the number that you input.
[48:24.320 --> 48:30.300]  [SPEAKER_25]: You see, when you call a beeper, you get your beeps and you're supposed to input something with Touch-Tone.
[48:30.820 --> 48:35.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, because I live in New Jersey, and I called a number in New York.
[48:35.340 --> 48:37.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: I think it was... I won't say the number.
[48:37.880 --> 48:41.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: Just... I think it was 719 area code.
[48:41.440 --> 48:41.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: 718.
[48:42.180 --> 48:44.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: No, I think it was a beeper code.
[48:44.640 --> 48:45.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: 917 then.
[48:45.460 --> 48:46.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: 917, yes.
[48:46.180 --> 48:46.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[48:46.280 --> 48:51.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: And then 875, and then the person called me back here in Jersey, and I was curious.
[48:51.040 --> 48:54.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: How can that person see my number in New York City, being that I'm in New Jersey?
[48:54.920 --> 48:57.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: Wait, are you saying you didn't enter any digits at all?
[48:57.560 --> 48:59.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: I didn't enter my number.
[48:59.960 --> 49:01.640]  [SPEAKER_25]: What did you hear when you called the number?
[49:02.220 --> 49:14.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: I heard a message telling me it was a beeper number, and to enter my phone number, I didn't enter my number, because I was somewhere... I wanted to call somebody else.
[49:14.760 --> 49:16.080]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, and...
[49:16.080 --> 49:18.640]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yet, they called me back here, on my phone.
[49:18.880 --> 49:20.180]  [SPEAKER_25]: Was this somebody that you knew?
[49:20.460 --> 49:20.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: No.
[49:21.620 --> 49:22.560]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's awfully strange.
[49:22.840 --> 49:27.320]  [SPEAKER_25]: What you're suggesting is that there's a beeper service that can read your telephone number.
[49:27.340 --> 49:28.340]  [SPEAKER_25]: I mean, it's not inconceivable.
[49:28.500 --> 49:29.040]  [SPEAKER_25]: It could be.
[49:29.300 --> 49:30.880]  [SPEAKER_25]: I'm just not aware of anything like that.
[49:30.940 --> 49:32.120]  [SPEAKER_25]: I'd certainly like to look into it.
[49:32.400 --> 49:32.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[49:32.800 --> 49:34.260]  [SPEAKER_25]: The 875 exchange, you said?
[49:34.680 --> 49:35.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: 875, yeah.
[49:35.880 --> 49:40.200]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, well, we'll try to look into that and see if that's possible, if people have that kind of a service.
[49:40.480 --> 49:48.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, and also, for some time now, I've called a number in New York City, 8752-541-6025, or 28, rather.
[49:49.400 --> 49:51.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I get NBC TV through the phone.
[49:51.920 --> 49:55.340]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah, that's probably one of those audio feed lines.
[49:55.480 --> 49:57.220]  [SPEAKER_25]: They're passed around on bulletin boards everywhere.
[49:57.240 --> 49:59.400]  [SPEAKER_25]: You call up and you just hear an audio feed for a network.
[49:59.660 --> 50:00.500]  [SPEAKER_25]: There's one for ABC.
[50:00.700 --> 50:02.420]  [SPEAKER_25]: There's one for, I think, virtually every TV station.
[50:02.820 --> 50:04.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: What are these for, usually used?
[50:04.540 --> 50:05.980]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, they're not for the public.
[50:06.820 --> 50:11.820]  [SPEAKER_25]: They're for people who work for the network to see what's on or to monitor something.
[50:12.340 --> 50:15.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, and I'd like, you know, some feedback on that, on beeper.
[50:15.580 --> 50:17.060]  [SPEAKER_25]: We don't have one here at WBAI, though.
[50:17.100 --> 50:17.940]  [SPEAKER_25]: I can assure you of that.
[50:18.160 --> 50:19.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, okay.
[50:19.180 --> 50:22.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, like, here, can I block it so they can't see my number on a beeper?
[50:22.540 --> 50:25.620]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, again, if it's going, you're going interstate.
[50:25.860 --> 50:27.200]  [SPEAKER_25]: So it depends how...
[50:27.200 --> 50:28.560]  [SPEAKER_25]: I mean, yeah, there's ways to do that, obviously.
[50:28.560 --> 50:33.660]  [SPEAKER_25]: If you go through an operator or if you use a particular carrier, it won't be passed along if that's what's happening.
[50:34.360 --> 50:37.400]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's too early to say exactly how this is being done.
[50:38.020 --> 50:39.320]  [SPEAKER_25]: You know, I can't...
[50:39.740 --> 50:42.120]  [SPEAKER_25]: I'm not aware of that particular service being offered.
[50:42.300 --> 50:44.600]  [SPEAKER_25]: However, do you know what your long-distance company is?
[50:44.980 --> 50:45.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: AT&T.
[50:45.920 --> 50:48.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: This person here called me back and they had, like, a computer.
[50:49.180 --> 50:50.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: And they spoke.
[50:51.080 --> 50:52.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: It gave my number out.
[50:52.540 --> 50:53.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: It said, see, I know your number.
[50:53.840 --> 50:55.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: And they played it over the phone.
[50:55.680 --> 50:55.940]  [SPEAKER_25]: Uh-huh.
[50:57.140 --> 50:58.400]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's pretty strange.
[50:58.760 --> 50:59.160]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's pretty...
[50:59.160 --> 51:01.580]  [SPEAKER_25]: And you had never called this person before and he did not know who you were.
[51:01.660 --> 51:03.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: This person, I heard their number over the CB.
[51:03.880 --> 51:04.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh-huh.
[51:04.360 --> 51:05.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: A CB radio.
[51:05.900 --> 51:08.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: I have a CB radio and they gave me a number, right?
[51:09.000 --> 51:09.320]  [SPEAKER_25]: Uh-huh.
[51:09.400 --> 51:13.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: I called them up in New York City and then the guy called me back here in Jersey.
[51:13.900 --> 51:14.620]  [SPEAKER_25]: I'll tell you what.
[51:14.720 --> 51:19.780]  [SPEAKER_25]: Can you give a call to the 2600 line and leave that number there?
[51:20.000 --> 51:20.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: What number is this?
[51:20.860 --> 51:27.600]  [SPEAKER_25]: Uh, I'll give you the phone number and you can call over there and leave the whole phone number for the 917 thing and we'll look into it.
[51:27.780 --> 51:27.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[51:28.280 --> 51:28.580]  [SPEAKER_25]: All right.
[51:28.700 --> 51:32.540]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's area code 516-751-2600.
[51:32.780 --> 51:33.140]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay.
[51:33.280 --> 51:36.300]  [SPEAKER_25]: And just leave that information there and somebody will...
[51:36.300 --> 51:41.820]  [SPEAKER_25]: If they don't answer the phone, they'll leave it on the machine and we'll hopefully have an answer for you next week.
[51:41.920 --> 51:42.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: All right.
[51:42.120 --> 51:42.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: Thank you.
[51:42.620 --> 51:42.940]  [SPEAKER_25]: All right.
[51:43.040 --> 51:43.200]  [SPEAKER_25]: Bye.
[51:43.380 --> 51:43.640]  [SPEAKER_25]: Bye-bye.
[51:44.860 --> 51:45.580]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's interesting.
[51:45.820 --> 51:50.280]  [SPEAKER_25]: I mean, we always knew that was possible, but I'm not aware of that actually happening.
[51:50.420 --> 51:52.940]  [SPEAKER_25]: Beepers that can instantly read your phone number.
[51:53.040 --> 52:01.100]  [SPEAKER_25]: It kind of takes away the purpose of beepers in the first place where you enter a particular phone number or a particular message or a code or something like that that you want to enter.
[52:01.260 --> 52:04.100]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's kind of like what caller ID could be if it was done properly.
[52:04.940 --> 52:15.280]  [SPEAKER_25]: Imagine caller ID where you could just simply type in a message, type in a number, type in something that would indicate to somebody who you are and not necessarily pass along the phone number that you're at.
[52:15.360 --> 52:19.160]  [SPEAKER_25]: Because sometimes when you get, say, a call from a payphone, you don't know who that is at the payphone.
[52:19.340 --> 52:22.640]  [SPEAKER_25]: But imagine if you got a little code that said, hey, it's me.
[52:22.640 --> 52:23.320]  [SPEAKER_25]: I'm calling you.
[52:23.440 --> 52:24.660]  [SPEAKER_25]: I'm at a number you won't recognize.
[52:25.320 --> 52:28.020]  [SPEAKER_25]: That would be a positive implementation of caller ID.
[52:29.700 --> 52:30.240]  [SPEAKER_25]: Good evening.
[52:30.380 --> 52:30.600]  [SPEAKER_25]: You're on.
[52:30.600 --> 52:36.840]  [SPEAKER_09]: Hi, this is, I haven't, go ahead, don't listen to the radio.
[52:37.260 --> 52:40.080]  [SPEAKER_09]: I want to get some information about information.
[52:40.660 --> 52:40.900]  [SPEAKER_25]: All right.
[52:41.260 --> 52:48.560]  [SPEAKER_09]: If I call for a number in Wisconsin, I can get a street address, a zip code, everything, spelling of the name.
[52:48.960 --> 52:49.180]  [SPEAKER_05]: Right.
[52:49.580 --> 52:56.540]  [SPEAKER_09]: If I call international AT&T, they will give me a number for a name in a city.
[52:57.340 --> 53:05.600]  [SPEAKER_09]: And then they might play a sort of little guessing game where you supply part of the address and they'll give you a scrambled part of the rest.
[53:05.760 --> 53:06.080]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's right.
[53:06.160 --> 53:06.280]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah.
[53:06.340 --> 53:07.780]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's that guessing game that costs money.
[53:08.280 --> 53:14.000]  [SPEAKER_09]: But you see, as I understand it, the phone system in France is actually a little more advanced over ours.
[53:15.220 --> 53:20.760]  [SPEAKER_09]: And if they can give you this information in Wisconsin, you know, there isn't.
[53:20.980 --> 53:24.000]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's not like the old days where the Great Eastern laid cables.
[53:24.260 --> 53:28.240]  [SPEAKER_09]: There's no, there's nothing funny about getting information from France.
[53:28.240 --> 53:29.180]  [SPEAKER_09]: Why do they do this?
[53:29.320 --> 53:33.260]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, this could be something that you're running into with, you know, a different culture, perhaps.
[53:33.580 --> 53:35.940]  [SPEAKER_09]: Explain to me that it was an FCC regulation.
[53:36.400 --> 53:40.920]  [SPEAKER_25]: I doubt FCC has any power over in France.
[53:41.360 --> 53:41.880]  [SPEAKER_09]: I'm sorry.
[53:42.040 --> 53:44.420]  [SPEAKER_09]: I use an AT&T international operator.
[53:44.960 --> 53:45.200]  [SPEAKER_25]: Uh-huh.
[53:45.280 --> 53:47.900]  [SPEAKER_25]: Did you get connected to a French operator at any point?
[53:48.060 --> 53:48.220]  [SPEAKER_09]: No.
[53:49.080 --> 53:50.540]  [SPEAKER_25]: It sounds like they're giving you the runaround.
[53:50.700 --> 53:53.220]  [SPEAKER_25]: I mean, if they have the information, they're required to give it to you.
[53:53.300 --> 53:54.800]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, in other words, they get a French database.
[53:54.840 --> 53:56.460]  [SPEAKER_09]: They load it into their computer.
[53:56.700 --> 53:58.040]  [SPEAKER_09]: They charge it by name, right?
[53:58.140 --> 53:59.700]  [SPEAKER_09]: And then they get the whole whatever is available.
[53:59.940 --> 54:00.060]  [SPEAKER_25]: Right.
[54:00.060 --> 54:03.880]  [SPEAKER_25]: And if it's there, if you have a number, if you have a name, they're supposed to give you whatever is there.
[54:03.980 --> 54:04.680]  [SPEAKER_25]: And that includes address.
[54:04.680 --> 54:08.140]  [SPEAKER_09]: Plus, they charge you something like $3.75 for this information.
[54:08.140 --> 54:09.880]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's ridiculous what they charge you now.
[54:10.060 --> 54:11.860]  [SPEAKER_25]: Only a couple of years ago, it didn't cost anything.
[54:12.020 --> 54:15.100]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now, all of a sudden, we're led to believe that it costs $4 to get a phone number.
[54:15.260 --> 54:16.740]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, this is what I don't understand.
[54:17.040 --> 54:21.080]  [SPEAKER_09]: There is nothing any exotic about getting a phone number in France anymore.
[54:21.380 --> 54:23.820]  [SPEAKER_09]: There's hardly any difference between Wisconsin and France.
[54:24.000 --> 54:24.480]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's true.
[54:24.660 --> 54:24.940]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's true.
[54:25.140 --> 54:25.840]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's all part of the...
[54:25.840 --> 54:27.860]  [SPEAKER_09]: Maybe Wisconsin's more difficult because of the weather.
[54:27.960 --> 54:28.300]  [SPEAKER_09]: I don't know.
[54:28.460 --> 54:29.460]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's probably true.
[54:30.260 --> 54:32.680]  [SPEAKER_09]: And they're playing this gag like...
[54:32.680 --> 54:35.140]  [SPEAKER_09]: In other words, I have a serious piece of information.
[54:35.280 --> 54:36.720]  [SPEAKER_09]: I want to get someone's mailing address.
[54:37.800 --> 54:42.360]  [SPEAKER_09]: Why is it a secret in Marseille and a noble in Madison, Wisconsin?
[54:43.040 --> 54:45.400]  [SPEAKER_09]: And at seven times the rate.
[54:45.860 --> 54:53.540]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, like I've said before, you're better off just calling a random number in France, getting to know somebody, and asking them to give you a phone number out of the phone book.
[54:54.480 --> 54:55.520]  [SPEAKER_25]: It'll cost less, too.
[54:55.800 --> 54:56.880]  [SPEAKER_07]: I hadn't thought of that.
[54:56.980 --> 54:58.520]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah, it'll cost much less, actually.
[54:58.680 --> 55:00.360]  [SPEAKER_25]: So, yeah, it's bizarre.
[55:00.420 --> 55:01.640]  [SPEAKER_25]: You're running into bureaucracy.
[55:01.640 --> 55:03.040]  [SPEAKER_25]: You're running into stupidity.
[55:03.660 --> 55:07.760]  [SPEAKER_09]: But it's interesting, though, the way they play on this notion of it being foreign.
[55:08.380 --> 55:08.800]  [SPEAKER_25]: Uh-huh.
[55:09.200 --> 55:10.420]  [SPEAKER_09]: You know, to charge money.
[55:10.720 --> 55:14.460]  [SPEAKER_25]: If something is foreign, they can always blame it on the foreigner.
[55:14.700 --> 55:15.280]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, exactly.
[55:15.500 --> 55:17.780]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah, that's a standard thing to do.
[55:18.500 --> 55:25.080]  [SPEAKER_25]: But it's, you know, you're running into bureaucracy, and I think you're running into it here if you're talking to an AT&T operator, and they're not giving you that information.
[55:27.480 --> 55:30.460]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, I liked your intro piece very much, incidentally.
[55:30.660 --> 55:30.940]  [SPEAKER_25]: Thank you.
[55:31.040 --> 55:31.840]  [SPEAKER_25]: You mean the negative land?
[55:32.040 --> 55:32.380]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yes.
[55:32.780 --> 55:34.820]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah, that's a classic piece, I think.
[55:35.440 --> 55:35.820]  [SPEAKER_09]: Available?
[55:36.680 --> 55:38.460]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah, it's on CD now.
[55:38.600 --> 55:39.600]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's SST Records.
[55:40.440 --> 55:41.740]  [SPEAKER_09]: And what would the title be?
[55:42.120 --> 55:44.980]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's called Escape from Noise.
[55:45.160 --> 55:45.420]  [SPEAKER_25]: Uh-huh.
[55:45.500 --> 55:46.140]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's the name of the record.
[55:46.460 --> 55:51.160]  [SPEAKER_25]: You know, they do a radio show, actually, out on our sister station in Berkeley, KPFA.
[55:51.280 --> 55:51.480]  [SPEAKER_25]: Ah.
[55:51.720 --> 55:54.520]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah, every Thursday night, I believe, so you might want to tune in for that.
[55:54.740 --> 55:55.060]  [SPEAKER_09]: Huh.
[55:55.340 --> 55:56.900]  [SPEAKER_25]: I mean, if you're out in Berkeley, that is, obviously.
[55:57.180 --> 55:57.400]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.
[55:58.240 --> 55:59.380]  [SPEAKER_09]: All right, well, thank you very much.
[55:59.460 --> 56:00.240]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, thanks for calling.
[56:00.380 --> 56:00.540]  [SPEAKER_09]: Bye.
[56:02.000 --> 56:04.800]  [SPEAKER_25]: Just proof that crazy people think alike, you know.
[56:04.900 --> 56:08.660]  [SPEAKER_25]: If we listen to them here on WBAI, it means they have a show out at KPFA.
[56:08.800 --> 56:11.820]  [SPEAKER_25]: Maybe somebody's listening to us on KPFA right now.
[56:11.920 --> 56:12.360]  [SPEAKER_25]: Who knows?
[56:13.200 --> 56:14.120]  [SPEAKER_25]: Good evening, you're on.
[56:15.280 --> 56:15.600]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yes.
[56:15.600 --> 56:21.160]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, just a quick comment to the folks who are concerned about paranoia.
[56:21.260 --> 56:21.540]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay.
[56:24.000 --> 56:29.480]  [SPEAKER_10]: And the intrusions that you so correctly bring forward on your show.
[56:29.640 --> 56:29.840]  [SPEAKER_25]: Uh-huh.
[56:29.960 --> 56:30.840]  [SPEAKER_10]: Just this statement.
[56:31.180 --> 56:35.300]  [SPEAKER_10]: Paranoics, even paranoics have real enemies, right?
[56:35.500 --> 56:36.060]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's true.
[56:36.320 --> 56:36.980]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay, sir.
[56:37.480 --> 56:37.860]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay.
[56:38.200 --> 56:41.140]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, I'm sure you've made a lot of people sleep better tonight.
[56:42.460 --> 56:43.800]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yes, even paranoid.
[56:43.800 --> 56:44.920]  [SPEAKER_25]: Good evening.
[56:45.380 --> 56:45.880]  [SPEAKER_25]: You're on.
[56:46.280 --> 56:47.360]  [SPEAKER_01]: Hello, Manuel.
[56:47.580 --> 56:48.080]  [SPEAKER_01]: Great show.
[56:48.600 --> 56:56.360]  [SPEAKER_01]: I had a question about this new service that the phone company is offering here in the New York area.
[56:56.600 --> 56:57.500]  [SPEAKER_25]: Which service is that?
[56:57.740 --> 57:06.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's the service in which you're allowed to assign a name to a phone number, and then you just speak the name into your telephone, and it dials it for you.
[57:06.780 --> 57:07.300]  [SPEAKER_25]: Ah, yes.
[57:07.400 --> 57:08.500]  [SPEAKER_25]: The old voice calling.
[57:08.540 --> 57:09.620]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's something NYNEX is offering?
[57:10.000 --> 57:11.560]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, yeah, I think so.
[57:11.560 --> 57:12.360]  [SPEAKER_01]: I got a...
[57:12.360 --> 57:19.940]  [SPEAKER_01]: You can store up to, I think, 10 numbers on your machine, and I was just wondering what the utility of this is.
[57:21.040 --> 57:22.620]  [SPEAKER_25]: You mean what the use of it is?
[57:22.760 --> 57:27.980]  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, why would they offer this service since most telephones store numbers anyway?
[57:28.280 --> 57:31.360]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah, I don't really understand what they're leading up to.
[57:31.360 --> 57:36.800]  [SPEAKER_25]: I mean, if you keep saying somebody's name, you know, you're going to forget their number.
[57:36.980 --> 57:39.880]  [SPEAKER_25]: And if you had a payphone, you won't be able to call them because you'll keep saying their name.
[57:39.940 --> 57:44.220]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's like when you have speed dialing, you know, and you say, well, you know, Jimmy's number is 7.
[57:44.560 --> 57:45.020]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's right.
[57:45.180 --> 57:46.160]  [SPEAKER_25]: You know, that's not going to help you much.
[57:46.160 --> 57:47.620]  [SPEAKER_07]: That's real good until you're away from your telephone.
[57:47.620 --> 57:48.020]  [SPEAKER_07]: Exactly.
[57:48.240 --> 57:57.140]  [SPEAKER_25]: Unless, you know, they've got some sort of master plan where they're going to have a name equal a number everywhere you go, and you'll just have to speak somebody's name and you'll be instantly connected to them.
[57:57.800 --> 57:59.800]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's kind of a scary thought in itself.
[58:00.780 --> 58:02.720]  [SPEAKER_25]: For now, I'd just be content playing with it.
[58:02.760 --> 58:03.580]  [SPEAKER_25]: Have you played with it yourself?
[58:03.580 --> 58:11.720]  [SPEAKER_01]: No, I haven't played with it, but I was just wondering how they would do it and where they'd store those numbers and if that was connected to your telephone.
[58:11.920 --> 58:15.260]  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, and who has access to it?
[58:15.380 --> 58:20.600]  [SPEAKER_01]: It just strikes me as a really easy way to, you know, trace what your calling habits are.
[58:20.980 --> 58:24.760]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, yeah, and also to get your voice pattern and all that.
[58:24.900 --> 58:31.460]  [SPEAKER_25]: I mean, the thing is connected through your local switch, just the same way the phone card is by Sprint.
[58:31.460 --> 58:35.540]  [SPEAKER_25]: And when you access their network, that information is stored in their particular switches.
[58:36.880 --> 58:41.660]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's, you know, part of voice technology, which is something that you're going to see a lot more of in the future.
[58:41.760 --> 58:43.500]  [SPEAKER_25]: The question is, how is it going to be implemented?
[58:44.500 --> 58:45.740]  [SPEAKER_25]: Who has access to it?
[58:46.000 --> 58:48.300]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, again, everybody in the phone company can access this.
[58:49.000 --> 58:50.320]  [SPEAKER_25]: What exactly can they do with it?
[58:50.380 --> 58:51.900]  [SPEAKER_25]: I don't really know what they can do with it.
[58:52.980 --> 58:54.880]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's not exactly sensitive information.
[58:54.880 --> 58:57.420]  [SPEAKER_25]: You're getting somebody's name and it's translating to a number.
[58:57.580 --> 59:01.440]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's the same thing, you know, you get anyway from information or dialing records.
[59:01.460 --> 59:02.240]  [SPEAKER_25]: Of any other sort.
[59:02.980 --> 59:06.180]  [SPEAKER_25]: But it's not the kind of thing you'd want to have being circulated all over the place, certainly.
[59:06.560 --> 59:07.080]  [SPEAKER_01]: No, it's not.
[59:07.200 --> 59:10.380]  [SPEAKER_01]: It just really reminded me of that friends and family thing.
[59:10.740 --> 59:11.300]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah, yeah.
[59:11.420 --> 59:13.420]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's probably the same mistakes are being made.
[59:13.420 --> 59:14.180]  [SPEAKER_25]: I wouldn't be surprised.
[59:14.640 --> 59:16.320]  [SPEAKER_25]: What area are you in that's offering this?
[59:16.460 --> 59:17.180]  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm in Brooklyn.
[59:17.540 --> 59:20.060]  [SPEAKER_25]: Uh-huh, because I think only a limited area is getting this right now.
[59:20.160 --> 59:20.320]  [SPEAKER_25]: Uh-huh.
[59:20.400 --> 59:22.200]  [SPEAKER_25]: So you're probably part of a test group.
[59:22.600 --> 59:22.820]  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh-huh.
[59:23.640 --> 59:23.960]  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[59:24.320 --> 59:25.140]  [SPEAKER_25]: All right, thanks for calling.
[59:25.320 --> 59:25.500]  [SPEAKER_01]: Bye.
[59:31.460 --> 59:33.040]  [SPEAKER_25]: To be interesting in any way.
[59:38.380 --> 59:42.820]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah, most of these new forms of technology are going to have a few bumps in the road.
[59:44.100 --> 59:46.020]  [SPEAKER_25]: And we're here to ride with those bumps.
[59:46.900 --> 59:49.560]  [SPEAKER_25]: All right, that's going to be our program for tonight.
[59:50.320 --> 59:52.180]  [SPEAKER_25]: A lot of interesting developments happening.
[59:52.180 --> 01:00:07.980]  [SPEAKER_25]: And we'll be back again next week with even more interesting developments because things are happening fast involving this whole clipper chip and eavesdropping technology, things like that.
[01:00:08.120 --> 01:00:10.280]  [SPEAKER_25]: So we'll update you as far as that kind of thing goes.
[01:00:10.280 --> 01:00:22.220]  [SPEAKER_25]: Again, if you want to test your number to see if it's being passed on via long distance through a company called WillTel, dial the following number up until midnight and let it pick up.
[01:00:22.260 --> 01:00:24.600]  [SPEAKER_25]: And we'll tell you next week if your exchange made it through.
[01:00:24.900 --> 01:00:29.920]  [SPEAKER_25]: 1-0-5-5-5-5-1-5-1-6-7-5-1-2-6-0.
[01:00:30.840 --> 01:00:38.320]  [SPEAKER_25]: It appears to be passing caller ID information, phone number information nationwide, if you use that particular prefix.
[01:00:38.800 --> 01:00:40.220]  [SPEAKER_25]: A sign of things to come.
[01:00:40.420 --> 01:00:41.580]  [SPEAKER_25]: We'll be back next week.
[01:00:41.820 --> 01:00:42.140]  [SPEAKER_25]: Take care.
[01:01:20.220 --> 01:01:23.960]  [SPEAKER_24]: Hey, this is Todd McFarlane, creator of Spawn.
[01:01:24.080 --> 01:01:29.060]  [SPEAKER_24]: And I'll be on Night Shift Thursday, February 17th from 3.30 to 6 a.m.
[01:01:29.060 --> 01:01:32.540]  [SPEAKER_24]: on WBAI 99.5 FM.
[01:01:43.160 --> 01:01:50.240]  [SPEAKER_03]: Friday night or Saturday morning, 3 to 5 a.m., hear the music of Donna Long live.
[01:01:50.800 --> 01:01:57.600]  [SPEAKER_03]: That's Friday night or Saturday morning, depending on whether you're staying up or getting up, 3 to 5 a.m.
[01:01:58.000 --> 01:02:01.720]  [SPEAKER_03]: on WBAI 99.5 FM.
[01:02:02.380 --> 01:02:04.320]  [SPEAKER_03]: Donna Long live.
[01:02:04.920 --> 01:02:06.120]  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm Frederick G.
[01:02:06.400 --> 01:02:07.920]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's Light Show.
[01:02:15.830 --> 01:02:16.910]  [SPEAKER_23]: Good evening.
[01:02:17.490 --> 01:02:23.890]  [SPEAKER_23]: In the news tonight, the Navy's Admiral Kelso steps down, but does that really close the door on the tailhook scandal?
[01:02:24.730 --> 01:02:28.590]  [SPEAKER_23]: Pennsylvania's tough new abortion law has a ripple effect along the East Coast.
[01:02:28.850 --> 01:02:37.510]  [SPEAKER_23]: And in New York, the police department pays up for the beating of a gay and lesbian rights activist, while local farmers speak out against the growth hormone DST.
[01:02:38.090 --> 01:02:46.690]  [SPEAKER_23]: With these and other stories, I'm Jose Santiago in New York with Verna Avery-Brown in Washington, and this is the news for Wednesday, February 16, 1994.
[01:02:47.410 --> 01:02:50.390]  [SPEAKER_23]: First to Washington for the Pacifica National News.
[01:02:51.770 --> 01:03:00.830]  [SPEAKER_12]: President Clinton today announced that Saudi Arabia has agreed to buy $6 billion in commercial aircraft from the Boeing Company and McDonnell Corporation.
[01:03:00.830 --> 01:03:06.190]  [SPEAKER_12]: Clinton thanked the Saudi king and said the decision was made despite strong European competition.
[01:03:06.590 --> 01:03:12.990]  [SPEAKER_12]: A White House fact sheet said the deal would result in tens of thousands of American jobs in California and Washington.
[01:03:13.690 --> 01:03:15.590]  [SPEAKER_12]: South African President F.W.
[01:03:15.730 --> 01:03:23.330]  [SPEAKER_12]: de Klerk and African National Congress leader Nelson Mandela have offered to change the new constitution to accommodate the conservative parties.
[01:03:23.490 --> 01:03:31.010]  [SPEAKER_12]: The conservative parties are running under the banner of the Freedom Alliance and have been saying they won't take part in the country's first all-race elections.
[01:03:31.330 --> 01:03:33.330]  [SPEAKER_12]: James Lorimer reports from Johannesburg.
[01:03:33.670 --> 01:03:41.450]  [SPEAKER_22]: African National Congress leader Nelson Mandela says the new constitution will be changed to include separate ballots in the election for national and provincial legislators.
[01:03:41.810 --> 01:03:46.930]  [SPEAKER_22]: He says the constitution will also recognize the rights of Afrikaners and will enhance regional powers.
[01:03:46.930 --> 01:03:53.550]  [SPEAKER_22]: There has been growing pressure on the government and ANC to make some sort of concession to try and defuse the growing threat of civil war.
[01:03:53.830 --> 01:03:58.150]  [SPEAKER_22]: That pressure has come from smaller parties, from the churches, business and foreign diplomats.
[01:03:58.290 --> 01:04:05.490]  [SPEAKER_22]: They want concessions so that parties in the Freedom Alliance may be persuaded to come back into the negotiations process and to take part in elections.
[01:04:05.870 --> 01:04:12.130]  [SPEAKER_22]: A Freedom Alliance negotiator has reacted with suspicion, saying he wants to see the concessions on paper before he responds.
[01:04:12.570 --> 01:04:20.830]  [SPEAKER_22]: The concessions follow an explosion of tension in the small town of Standerton today, the white conservative council there declared the area would become part of a white state.
[01:04:20.970 --> 01:04:27.130]  [SPEAKER_22]: An ANC march to protest that was stopped by police, who fired shotguns and rubber bullets and wounded 30 people.
[01:04:27.570 --> 01:04:30.630]  [SPEAKER_22]: For Pacifica Network News, I'm James Lorimer in Johannesburg.
[01:04:30.830 --> 01:04:40.010]  [SPEAKER_12]: In Sarajevo today, sniper fire claimed another life, marking the first casualty since a truce between the warring sides was declared nearly a week ago.
[01:04:40.250 --> 01:04:49.570]  [SPEAKER_12]: The death came as the United Nations asked for extra troops to help demilitarize the besieged city, but member nations are wary of committing their troops to the region.
[01:04:49.870 --> 01:04:51.430]  [SPEAKER_12]: Stephen Jones reports from London.
[01:04:52.070 --> 01:05:00.310]  [SPEAKER_26]: The UN commander in Bosnia, General Sir Michael Rose, wants another 3,000 troops, roughly doubling the size of the contingent already in Sarajevo.
[01:05:00.510 --> 01:05:07.350]  [SPEAKER_26]: He had hoped reinforcements would come from countries already represented in the region, but his pleas appear to have fallen on deaf ears.
[01:05:07.710 --> 01:05:12.650]  [SPEAKER_26]: The French have said they're not willing to send extra forces, but will send two radar units instead.
[01:05:12.650 --> 01:05:21.690]  [SPEAKER_26]: The Russian authorities have flatly denied the request, worried by the demands of hardliners not to use force against the Serbs, people they once regarded as allies.
[01:05:21.970 --> 01:05:28.010]  [SPEAKER_26]: The British government is still considering its answer, but say they've already shouldered more than their fair share of the responsibility.
[01:05:28.450 --> 01:05:29.950]  [SPEAKER_26]: Stephen Jones, London.
[01:05:30.330 --> 01:05:31.850]  [SPEAKER_26]: For Pacifica Network News.
[01:05:32.110 --> 01:05:35.550]  [SPEAKER_12]: A United Nations report released today says the lifting of the U.S.
[01:05:35.650 --> 01:05:39.510]  [SPEAKER_12]: trade embargo against Cuba will improve human rights conditions there.
[01:05:39.510 --> 01:05:42.710]  [SPEAKER_12]: The report, compiled by a Swedish diplomat for the U.N.
[01:05:42.770 --> 01:05:46.990]  [SPEAKER_12]: Human Rights Commission, said that outside pressure on the island was not working.
[01:05:47.150 --> 01:05:52.710]  [SPEAKER_12]: The Cuban economy has steadily declined since the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991.
[01:05:53.450 --> 01:06:02.470]  [SPEAKER_12]: Acute food shortages has forced at least 6,000 people to leave their villages in central Somalia today and trek to the town of Badoa to look for food.
[01:06:02.470 --> 01:06:03.190]  [SPEAKER_12]: A U.N.
[01:06:03.210 --> 01:06:04.510]  [SPEAKER_12]: spokesperson said the U.N.
[01:06:04.550 --> 01:06:09.810]  [SPEAKER_12]: was seeking help from international aid agencies to distribute food after another poor harvest.
[01:06:09.950 --> 01:06:12.470]  [SPEAKER_12]: And in the capital, Mogadishu, U.S.
[01:06:12.530 --> 01:06:18.170]  [SPEAKER_12]: troops fired into the air to disperse a large crowd of Somalis who were blocking the entrance to the port.
[01:06:18.450 --> 01:06:27.450]  [SPEAKER_12]: The Academy Awards of Pork Barrel Spending Projects was announced today with Democratic Senator Robert Byrd of West Virginia winning the Lifetime Achievement Award.
[01:06:27.450 --> 01:06:36.750]  [SPEAKER_12]: According to the Pig Book of Wasteful Government Spending, Senator Byrd brought a total of $154 million to his small rural state.
[01:06:37.010 --> 01:06:40.410]  [SPEAKER_12]: The book is put out annually by Citizens Against Government Waste.
[01:06:40.790 --> 01:06:47.710]  [SPEAKER_12]: Jack Anderson, the co-chairman for the group, estimates that 34 cents out of every tax dollar is allegedly wasted.
[01:06:47.950 --> 01:06:49.990]  [SPEAKER_12]: And those are the stories topping the news.
[01:07:02.540 --> 01:07:06.320]  [SPEAKER_12]: For all intents and purposes, the tailhook scandal is over.
[01:07:06.660 --> 01:07:13.920]  [SPEAKER_12]: Late yesterday, the man at the top of the Navy gangplank, Admiral Frank Kelso, decided to retire two months early.
[01:07:14.240 --> 01:07:22.060]  [SPEAKER_12]: He said his effectiveness had been hampered by continued questions about the tailhook convention two and a half years ago when dozens of women were molested.
[01:07:22.400 --> 01:07:25.340]  [SPEAKER_12]: Admiral Kelso said this is the end of tailhook.
[01:07:25.340 --> 01:07:26.160]  [SPEAKER_12]: But is it?
[01:07:26.500 --> 01:07:27.640]  [SPEAKER_12]: Mark Beebis reports.
[01:07:28.060 --> 01:07:32.420]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's been two and a half years since the infamous tailhook annual convention in Las Vegas.
[01:07:32.640 --> 01:07:39.620]  [SPEAKER_04]: The 1991 gathering of Navy and Marine aviators ended in dozens of women charging they were molested and harassed when they attended a party.
[01:07:39.880 --> 01:07:44.460]  [SPEAKER_04]: The most notorious of the charges was that the women were forced to run a gauntlet while men grabbed at them.
[01:07:44.900 --> 01:07:51.240]  [SPEAKER_04]: The investigation into the charges lasted until last week, when the military judge in Norfolk threw out the last three criminal cases.
[01:07:51.240 --> 01:07:54.460]  [SPEAKER_04]: In all, the Navy disposed of 116 cases.
[01:07:54.820 --> 01:07:59.520]  [SPEAKER_04]: Of them, only 28 officers received administrative penalties, including fines and reprimands.
[01:07:59.680 --> 01:08:02.420]  [SPEAKER_04]: The Marines threw out all but one of its 22 cases.
[01:08:02.760 --> 01:08:05.660]  [SPEAKER_04]: No officer from either service has been court-martialed.
[01:08:05.960 --> 01:08:12.820]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yesterday, Admiral Frank Kelso, chief of naval operations, announced his early retirement, saying he thought this is the end of tailhook.
[01:08:13.200 --> 01:08:17.920]  [SPEAKER_04]: Colorado Democratic Representative Patricia Schroeder has been a leading critic of the tailhook investigation.
[01:08:17.920 --> 01:08:21.380]  [SPEAKER_15]: If you sit there and think, okay, now where are we three years later?
[01:08:22.420 --> 01:08:28.100]  [SPEAKER_15]: Three years later, the Navy brought absolutely no sexual assault charges.
[01:08:28.100 --> 01:08:32.800]  [SPEAKER_15]: What they did was try to treat this like it was streaking or a bad fraternity party.
[01:08:33.580 --> 01:08:38.360]  [SPEAKER_15]: When you read the charges, that's not what it was about.
[01:08:38.660 --> 01:08:40.220]  [SPEAKER_15]: It wasn't about rowdyism.
[01:08:40.220 --> 01:08:43.060]  [SPEAKER_15]: It was about people being assaulted.
[01:08:43.720 --> 01:08:45.120]  [SPEAKER_15]: Out and out assaulted.
[01:08:45.700 --> 01:08:51.160]  [SPEAKER_15]: They ignored that part at all and tried to treat it like it's boys will be boys.
[01:08:51.700 --> 01:09:04.880]  [SPEAKER_15]: The taxpayers spent a whole lot of money because they had to pull off three or four different investigations that just were obviously whitewashes, and everybody got embarrassed by those when they got uncovered.
[01:09:05.260 --> 01:09:07.080]  [SPEAKER_15]: So we spent a whole lot of money.
[01:09:07.080 --> 01:09:11.920]  [SPEAKER_15]: I mean, we finally got to the bottom of what really happened and who the 84 victims were.
[01:09:12.380 --> 01:09:17.740]  [SPEAKER_15]: And now you see the first victim quitting in total disgust.
[01:09:18.220 --> 01:09:22.160]  [SPEAKER_15]: And no one charged with anything, and they're saying it's all behind us.
[01:09:22.280 --> 01:09:24.800]  [SPEAKER_15]: So what was that all about?
[01:09:25.260 --> 01:09:27.980]  [SPEAKER_04]: Kate O'Byrne thinks it's all about sexual politics.
[01:09:28.260 --> 01:09:38.260]  [SPEAKER_04]: O'Byrne is vice president of government relations for the conservative think tank, the Heritage Foundation, and says O'Byrne, she believes tailhook is not over, but that it will live on to the detriment of the Navy.
[01:09:38.740 --> 01:09:48.920]  [SPEAKER_16]: What the Pentagon was unable to do, beginning with Dick Cheney, and now under Les Aspen, and Secretary Perry, is put in perspective the tailhook episode.
[01:09:50.240 --> 01:09:55.200]  [SPEAKER_16]: The behavior was obnoxious and indefensible for young officers.
[01:09:55.200 --> 01:10:00.120]  [SPEAKER_16]: However, it should never have been permitted to taint the entire United States Navy.
[01:10:00.440 --> 01:10:03.640]  [SPEAKER_16]: It is a community onto itself, these aviators.
[01:10:04.100 --> 01:10:08.120]  [SPEAKER_16]: It does not signal a larger cultural institutional problem in the Navy.
[01:10:08.340 --> 01:10:17.260]  [SPEAKER_16]: There's absolutely no evidence that the kind of behavior that was evidenced at tailhook exists anyplace else in the whole Navy.
[01:10:17.480 --> 01:10:23.620]  [SPEAKER_04]: And O'Byrne puts much of the blame for the tainted Navy on Admiral Kelso for letting the investigations get out of hand.
[01:10:23.620 --> 01:10:28.000]  [SPEAKER_04]: But some disagree with O'Byrne's characterization that sex discrimination is not Navy-wide.
[01:10:28.280 --> 01:10:34.060]  [SPEAKER_04]: One of the original tailhook whistleblowers, Navy Lieutenant Paula Coughlin, recently resigned due to alleged harassment.
[01:10:34.440 --> 01:10:42.660]  [SPEAKER_04]: Retired Brigadier General Patricia Foote is saddened by the recent events around the scandal, but she does not agree that Admiral Kelso's early retirement represents closure.
[01:10:42.920 --> 01:10:52.860]  [SPEAKER_14]: In fact, I think there's no closure whatsoever, and I certainly do not look at Lieutenant Coughlin's resignation as the appropriate closure.
[01:10:52.860 --> 01:11:07.440]  [SPEAKER_14]: I find that to be one of the most tragic aspects of this, that the Navy has lost a very courageous young woman, a very courageous professional officer, who had the courage to stand up and be counted.
[01:11:08.400 --> 01:11:22.060]  [SPEAKER_14]: In a strange sort of way, while her tenure in the service has been relatively brief, Paula Coughlin, by having surfaced tailhook, I think has changed the Navy forever.
[01:11:22.440 --> 01:11:23.880]  [SPEAKER_04]: But has the Navy changed?
[01:11:24.260 --> 01:11:26.960]  [SPEAKER_04]: Lieutenant Kate Muller, spokesperson for the Pentagon, thinks so.
[01:11:27.220 --> 01:11:36.940]  [SPEAKER_04]: She says just the inclusion of more women into areas from which they were formerly excluded will bring about better understanding between men and women, and in that way reduce the chances of future tailhooks.
[01:11:37.400 --> 01:11:42.100]  [SPEAKER_04]: Muller says the Navy can't change a culture overnight, but it is working to improve the situation.
[01:11:42.100 --> 01:11:50.880]  [SPEAKER_17]: Right up this alley is one of the training programs that the Navy has started called Informal Resolution System.
[01:11:51.140 --> 01:12:04.560]  [SPEAKER_17]: And what this system does is it helps people start a dialogue among each other about what really constitutes sexual harassment and what doesn't, and it helps us recognize it better.
[01:12:06.160 --> 01:12:16.540]  [SPEAKER_17]: If something happens in the office now where, you know, it might be borderline or something like that, someone will say, hey, you know, a lot more willing to say, hey, you shouldn't say that, or that's not appropriate.
[01:12:16.780 --> 01:12:20.720]  [SPEAKER_17]: And I think people are just so much more aware that there is greater respect out there.
[01:12:20.980 --> 01:12:26.400]  [SPEAKER_04]: Lieutenant Muller credits Admiral Kelso for putting many of these programs in place in light of the tailhook scandal.
[01:12:26.680 --> 01:12:29.600]  [SPEAKER_04]: Admiral Kelso's retirement goes into effect April 30th.
[01:12:30.020 --> 01:12:35.160]  [SPEAKER_04]: Defense Secretary William Perry is expected to nominate Admiral Jeremy Borda to be Kelso's replacement.
[01:12:35.460 --> 01:12:38.100]  [SPEAKER_04]: Mark Beavis, Pacifica Network News, Washington.
[01:13:10.530 --> 01:13:16.010]  [SPEAKER_12]: What's the one thing the spotted owl, rangelands, and ozone holes have in common?
[01:13:16.230 --> 01:13:17.410]  [SPEAKER_12]: Paid lobbyists.
[01:13:17.690 --> 01:13:29.070]  [SPEAKER_12]: But the thousands of well-suited and salaried lobbyists who routinely pressure Congress on behalf of the Earth are finding that, like many of the Earth's natural resources, environmental dollars are also getting scarce.
[01:13:29.070 --> 01:13:36.570]  [SPEAKER_12]: Outside Magazine, a publication targeted at outdoors types, has conducted its latest review of environmental lobbyists.
[01:13:36.750 --> 01:13:43.230]  [SPEAKER_12]: It identifies the 12 most powerful groups, who they are, what they've done, and how they compete in a leaner meaning.