Off The Hook - 1994-03-30

[00:24.560 --> 00:28.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: And you're listening to radio station WBAI in New York.
[00:29.340 --> 00:31.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's time now for Off the Hook.
[01:34.410 --> 01:36.630]  [SPEAKER_06]: And another Wednesday evening is upon us.
[01:36.710 --> 01:37.610]  [SPEAKER_06]: This is Emmanuel Goldstein.
[01:37.710 --> 01:38.650]  [SPEAKER_06]: The program is Off the Hook.
[01:38.830 --> 01:48.890]  [SPEAKER_06]: And there's no way to introduce this, but we've got a story for you tonight that's just so incredible that you just won't believe it.
[01:48.890 --> 01:50.030]  [SPEAKER_06]: Stay tuned, though.
[01:50.210 --> 01:51.530]  [SPEAKER_06]: You'll hear the whole thing.
[02:04.990 --> 02:08.090]  [SPEAKER_14]: There's no way out of here.
[02:08.090 --> 02:11.730]  [SPEAKER_14]: When you come in, you're in for good.
[02:12.150 --> 02:15.450]  [SPEAKER_14]: There was no promise made.
[02:15.450 --> 02:18.990]  [SPEAKER_14]: The part you played, the chance you took.
[02:20.530 --> 02:23.830]  [SPEAKER_14]: There are no boundaries set.
[02:23.990 --> 02:27.450]  [SPEAKER_14]: The time, and yet you waste it still.
[02:35.020 --> 02:40.280]  [SPEAKER_14]: So it slips through your hands like grains of sand.
[02:40.640 --> 02:41.600]  [SPEAKER_14]: You live here.
[02:41.940 --> 02:44.440]  [SPEAKER_14]: When you come in, you're in
[02:58.680 --> 02:59.940]  [SPEAKER_15]: for good.
[02:59.940 --> 03:01.480]  [SPEAKER_14]: There's no answer.
[03:05.360 --> 03:07.260]  [SPEAKER_14]: There's no answer.
[03:24.670 --> 03:26.630]  [SPEAKER_14]: Without seeing...
[03:26.630 --> 03:27.310]  [SPEAKER_14]: Without seeing...
[03:37.240 --> 03:40.540]  [SPEAKER_14]: There are no answers here.
[03:40.820 --> 03:44.300]  [SPEAKER_14]: When you look out, you don't see it.
[03:44.920 --> 03:48.000]  [SPEAKER_14]: There was no promise made.
[03:48.280 --> 03:51.560]  [SPEAKER_14]: The part you played, the chance you took.
[03:52.980 --> 03:56.200]  [SPEAKER_14]: There's no way out of here.
[04:38.780 --> 04:40.560]  [SPEAKER_14]: There's no way out of here.
[04:40.560 --> 04:41.460]  [SPEAKER_14]: There's no way out of here.
[04:41.460 --> 04:42.540]  [SPEAKER_14]: When you come in, you're in for good
[04:58.720 --> 05:01.900]  [SPEAKER_14]: There are no answers here.
[05:02.160 --> 05:05.640]  [SPEAKER_14]: When you look out, you don't see it.
[05:06.800 --> 05:10.240]  [SPEAKER_14]: There was no promise made.
[05:10.500 --> 05:12.000]  [SPEAKER_14]: The part you played.
[05:12.360 --> 05:15.660]  [SPEAKER_14]: The chance you took.
[05:39.040 --> 05:51.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, we may not be trapped inside here, but there's many ways we can be locked away and caught without a way out.
[05:52.760 --> 05:57.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: I guess visiting a prison so many times sort of drives that home.
[06:00.840 --> 06:04.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: I've seen fiber optic twice in the past couple of weeks.
[06:05.900 --> 06:13.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, you know, it just keeps getting more and more bureaucratic, more and more difficult to deal with.
[06:15.660 --> 06:16.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: Here's the latest thing.
[06:16.700 --> 06:19.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: I know we've been telling people to send him books and magazines.
[06:20.100 --> 06:23.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: Unfortunately, we can't do that anymore.
[06:28.000 --> 06:31.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: There's a new regulation, a new law.
[06:31.600 --> 06:36.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, not really a new law, but just a new way that they're dealing with things.
[06:36.000 --> 06:39.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: A new way that they're going to make life a bit more difficult.
[06:43.100 --> 06:53.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: And in this particular case, it involves the fact that Mark has been receiving lots and lots of books and magazines from people like you, who have been kind enough to send him these things.
[06:53.580 --> 06:55.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, now the prison authorities are rather upset.
[06:55.660 --> 06:58.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: They're saying that he can no longer get books or magazines.
[06:59.500 --> 07:03.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: That is, he can have a total limit of five books and six magazines.
[07:04.100 --> 07:04.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: Can't have any more than that.
[07:05.020 --> 07:09.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: If he has any more than that, he faces demerits.
[07:09.680 --> 07:13.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: And enough demerits leads to somebody being put in the hole, which is solitary confinement.
[07:14.740 --> 07:17.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's the kind of crap we've got to deal with.
[07:17.220 --> 07:23.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: So at the moment, he's asked me to convey that people not send him books and magazines.
[07:24.040 --> 07:26.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: He has to ship home a lot of the extra ones.
[07:28.820 --> 07:31.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: Obviously, letters are a very good thing to send in.
[07:32.420 --> 07:35.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: And we'll give out the address a little bit later on in the program.
[07:36.440 --> 07:40.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: Here's something else that happened concerning prisons, which just gets me so angry.
[07:42.240 --> 07:51.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: There's one other person still in prison from this particular group of people that got sent away for what I think are absolutely ridiculous charges.
[07:51.700 --> 07:55.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: And this is someone who went by the handle of Scorpion.
[07:55.660 --> 07:56.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: His real name is Paul.
[07:57.060 --> 07:59.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I've submitted an application to visit.
[08:00.120 --> 08:04.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, they don't tell you this when you watch TV and you see people in movies visiting someone in prison.
[08:04.740 --> 08:06.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: There's a long process to this.
[08:06.120 --> 08:07.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: And this is a minimal security prison.
[08:07.760 --> 08:08.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: You have to fill out forms.
[08:09.020 --> 08:09.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: You have to be approved.
[08:09.940 --> 08:11.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: You have to answer all these questions.
[08:12.500 --> 08:16.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: One of the questions being, do you desire to visit with the above-named individual?
[08:17.440 --> 08:19.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, why would you be filling out the form if you didn't?
[08:20.140 --> 08:23.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: Did you know this individual prior to his period of confinement?
[08:23.320 --> 08:25.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: How long have you known this individual?
[08:25.160 --> 08:26.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: Where did the relationship develop?
[08:26.640 --> 08:28.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: Have you ever been convicted of a crime?
[08:28.500 --> 08:30.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: Are you presently on probation or parole?
[08:31.120 --> 08:33.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: Actually, it says, are you presently on probation of parole?
[08:33.640 --> 08:34.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: But I'm sure they don't mean it that way.
[08:35.600 --> 08:37.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: Do you correspond or visit with other inmates?
[08:37.780 --> 08:38.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: If so, who?
[08:39.260 --> 08:40.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: What kind of car do you drive?
[08:40.540 --> 08:41.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: What's your license plate?
[08:41.520 --> 08:42.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: And all kinds of things like that.
[08:42.920 --> 08:48.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, Paul sent me a form in January to visit him.
[08:48.280 --> 08:49.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: I got it in February.
[08:50.100 --> 08:51.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: Filled it out the day I got it.
[08:51.460 --> 08:52.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: And sent it back.
[08:53.580 --> 08:57.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: And then, yesterday, March 29th.
[08:57.520 --> 08:59.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: Keep in mind, he sent me this form in January.
[08:59.760 --> 09:00.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: I got it in February.
[09:01.480 --> 09:04.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: And received this in March 29th.
[09:04.540 --> 09:05.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: The form came back.
[09:06.000 --> 09:09.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: It seemed that I forgot to write his name.
[09:09.720 --> 09:16.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, even though his name is written all over this document, they sent it back to me saying, please complete the rest of the form.
[09:16.800 --> 09:17.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: Put in his name.
[09:17.440 --> 09:18.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: We can't figure that out.
[09:18.860 --> 09:22.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's not, you know, necessarily the same person that's named throughout this document.
[09:22.380 --> 09:25.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: You have to write that name in and his number as well.
[09:25.780 --> 09:30.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: And because I missed that one line, they waited a month and sent me this form back.
[09:30.180 --> 09:31.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, it's pointless.
[09:31.320 --> 09:32.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: He's getting out on April 15th.
[09:32.800 --> 09:37.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: If I send this form in now, by the time I get it back, it'll be May.
[09:40.380 --> 09:47.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, that's a small taste of the frustration that you live when you're inside a place like that.
[09:47.060 --> 09:48.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: And that's one of the good ones.
[09:49.100 --> 09:50.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, it's something to keep in mind.
[09:51.160 --> 09:53.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: Those of us who have the freedom to walk around every day.
[09:55.000 --> 09:57.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: Something that a lot less of us seem to be having these days.
[09:57.480 --> 09:58.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: They're building prisons everywhere.
[10:00.220 --> 10:00.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: All right.
[10:01.280 --> 10:03.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's part of what I wanted to talk about today.
[10:03.880 --> 10:08.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: But the real story concerns what happened in Chicago last week.
[10:08.280 --> 10:10.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, actually, yeah, last week and over the weekend.
[10:11.420 --> 10:19.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: The Computers Freedom and Privacy Conference, the fourth annual one, usually takes place in either the Bay Area or Washington, D.C.
[10:19.140 --> 10:20.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, this time it took place in Chicago.
[10:20.540 --> 10:32.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: And it drew people from all over the world who were interested in such topics as computers and freedom of speech and all kinds of other issues.
[10:32.780 --> 10:38.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: It drew a fair number of computer hackers, civil liberties lawyers, media representatives.
[10:39.100 --> 10:40.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: You name it, they were there.
[10:40.380 --> 10:45.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: It was an interesting smorgasbord of events and discussions.
[10:45.240 --> 10:56.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: We had a hacker panel, which was, I think, very informative and got people their first glimpse of hackers from all different sides of the tracks, so to say.
[10:57.560 --> 10:59.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's nothing unusual in and of itself.
[10:59.400 --> 11:01.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: The CFP Conference happens once a year.
[11:01.160 --> 11:04.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: And it's a great way to meet people.
[11:04.420 --> 11:12.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's a great way to exchange ideas and to see that even though we may be on different sides of the fence, where, you know, we still have a common ground.
[11:12.580 --> 11:13.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: We still can talk.
[11:13.660 --> 11:16.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: We still can hang out together and have fun.
[11:16.560 --> 11:17.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: And that's what we did.
[11:17.380 --> 11:18.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, we hung out.
[11:18.620 --> 11:19.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: We went out to dinner.
[11:19.680 --> 11:20.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: We walked around the town.
[11:21.260 --> 11:25.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: We just traded information of all sorts.
[11:25.360 --> 11:27.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, all kinds of contacts were made.
[11:27.780 --> 11:33.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: But, you know, this year, something really bizarre, something really strange happened.
[11:34.400 --> 11:41.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, at these events, there's representatives from all different governmental agencies, all different investigative agencies, CIA, NSA, FBI.
[11:42.160 --> 11:42.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: They're all there.
[11:43.100 --> 11:46.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: And they walk around with name tags on them, so you can tell who these people are.
[11:46.620 --> 11:47.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's kind of neat.
[11:47.600 --> 11:50.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, I was talking to one guy from the NSA, and he was a really nice person, you know.
[11:50.720 --> 11:53.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: I was just kind of chewing the fat about various things.
[11:53.660 --> 11:57.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, you know, it's kind of a revelation, one I've gotten before, but it still hits you.
[11:58.040 --> 11:59.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: These people are human beings.
[11:59.640 --> 12:00.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: My God!
[12:00.740 --> 12:02.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: They're not aliens from another planet.
[12:03.480 --> 12:07.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, once you realize that, you can sort of become more comfortable with them.
[12:07.320 --> 12:08.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: Maybe they'll see where you're trying to come from.
[12:08.940 --> 12:10.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: Maybe you'll understand something that they're trying to say.
[12:11.420 --> 12:14.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: And that's sort of what the whole purpose of the conference is.
[12:14.520 --> 12:15.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: Computers, freedom, and privacy.
[12:16.000 --> 12:17.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: All kind of ties together.
[12:17.740 --> 12:20.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: But, you know, this year, something different happened.
[12:21.080 --> 12:27.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, yeah, this year, one of those agencies was working really, really hard.
[12:27.500 --> 12:35.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: And what this meant was that, well, I guess the best way to say it is that CFP got raided by the feds.
[12:36.060 --> 12:43.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: A bunch of FBI people were there, and apparently they were looking for some computer hackers.
[12:44.640 --> 12:48.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, we have three stories here.
[12:48.240 --> 12:49.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: Three different stories.
[12:49.600 --> 12:55.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: And what we're going to do is go from one story to the next in the words of the people that lived them.
[12:55.800 --> 13:00.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: Our first story comes from someone from New York, actually.
[13:00.760 --> 13:03.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: Lee Nussbaum, who was attending the conference.
[13:04.200 --> 13:10.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: And had an interesting event happen while he was attending the conference.
[13:10.760 --> 13:14.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: Let's cut over to Lee now, who joins us from St. Louis.
[13:15.280 --> 13:16.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, Lee, are you there?
[13:17.620 --> 13:19.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, I'm not picking you up.
[13:19.240 --> 13:20.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: Let me try you over here.
[13:21.540 --> 13:22.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: Can you hear me now?
[13:23.120 --> 13:23.480]  Yes.
[13:24.180 --> 13:26.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, we're not getting you very loudly.
[13:29.000 --> 13:29.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[13:30.940 --> 13:32.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: Is anybody else there?
[13:32.920 --> 13:33.440]  Yeah, Robert.
[13:33.780 --> 13:34.900]  But, Lee, speak up.
[13:35.240 --> 13:37.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, the problem is with this phone line, I think.
[13:39.640 --> 13:42.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, we're going to have to probably patch this or something.
[13:43.800 --> 13:45.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's just not loud enough, I'm afraid.
[13:47.080 --> 13:48.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, we have some technical difficulties.
[13:48.660 --> 13:49.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: We're going to work these out.
[13:50.180 --> 13:51.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: We'll be back in a minute.
[14:04.070 --> 14:09.950]  [SPEAKER_14]: We'll be back in a minute.
[14:30.070 --> 14:32.530]  [SPEAKER_14]: Oh, sweet.
[14:34.110 --> 14:36.730]  [SPEAKER_14]: Come on, you soon.
[14:38.720 --> 14:44.970]  [SPEAKER_14]: I can't get this long for you.
[16:03.450 --> 16:06.980]  [SPEAKER_14]: Look at that head lying there.
[16:06.980 --> 16:11.000]  [SPEAKER_14]: The moon is dark, she shows no fear.
[16:11.920 --> 16:15.280]  [SPEAKER_14]: I'm lying still, my eyes are wide.
[16:15.960 --> 16:19.480]  [SPEAKER_14]: My heart is pumping, I'm still alive.
[16:20.120 --> 16:23.480]  [SPEAKER_14]: I'm still awake against my love.
[16:24.480 --> 16:29.740]  [SPEAKER_14]: What would it ever take to still this love in me?
[16:44.000 --> 16:46.240]  [SPEAKER_14]: And I'm kind.
[16:48.020 --> 16:50.880]  [SPEAKER_14]: With my own life.
[16:52.220 --> 16:54.840]  [SPEAKER_14]: Is this a dream?
[16:56.480 --> 16:59.500]  [SPEAKER_14]: Or is it real?
[17:00.540 --> 17:03.060]  [SPEAKER_14]: Oh, see,
[17:12.760 --> 17:15.100]  [SPEAKER_15]: there's no way.
[17:17.890 --> 17:23.450]  [SPEAKER_15]: See, come on, let's see.
[17:28.210 --> 17:31.510]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, we seem to have figured out the technical problems.
[17:32.630 --> 17:34.770]  [SPEAKER_06]: Let's see if Lee Nussbaum is there.
[17:34.850 --> 17:35.330]  [SPEAKER_06]: Lee, are you there?
[17:35.570 --> 17:36.010]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yes.
[17:36.190 --> 17:37.110]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, that's much better.
[17:37.890 --> 17:39.890]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, to bring us back.
[17:39.930 --> 17:41.590]  [SPEAKER_06]: Sorry, the WBAI phone system strikes again.
[17:42.290 --> 17:46.070]  [SPEAKER_06]: Basically, we had an interesting experience at Computers Freedom and Privacy.
[17:46.450 --> 17:53.550]  [SPEAKER_06]: And we had some federal agents who were apparently combing the crowd for some people.
[17:53.750 --> 17:55.390]  [SPEAKER_06]: Can you tell us how this affected you?
[17:55.390 --> 17:56.850]  [SPEAKER_20]: Um, yeah.
[17:57.090 --> 18:08.610]  [SPEAKER_20]: Friday morning, at some point between 8 and 8.30, a couple minutes after I'd awakened, got a knock on the door and answered it.
[18:08.770 --> 18:21.790]  [SPEAKER_20]: And it was for Chicago FBI, who basically in about three sentences told me I was Kevin Mitnick.
[18:22.910 --> 18:27.870]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, Kevin Mitnick being a, um, a renowned computer hacker who is currently on the run.
[18:28.870 --> 18:29.310]  [SPEAKER_20]: Yes.
[18:29.470 --> 18:32.110]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, did this surprise you to find out that you were actually Kevin Mitnick?
[18:32.610 --> 18:34.070]  [SPEAKER_20]: Uh, of course.
[18:34.830 --> 18:38.170]  [SPEAKER_20]: Um, and, uh, you know, let them know.
[18:38.910 --> 18:44.730]  [SPEAKER_20]: And basically, my next sentence to them was, you know, to the effect of, no, I'm not, Lee Nussbaum.
[18:44.730 --> 18:48.510]  [SPEAKER_20]: Um, um, their response was, yes, we know about the aliases.
[18:50.250 --> 18:50.850]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[18:51.630 --> 19:00.010]  [SPEAKER_20]: Uh, they mentioned later that apparently he has used William Nussbaum as an alias in the past.
[19:01.390 --> 19:02.110]  [SPEAKER_20]: Uh, uh, uh, alcance.
[19:02.110 --> 19:30.770]  [SPEAKER_20]: And, uh, when someone had recognized me, or had recognized someone who looked enough like a fitneck to be worth checking the night before this name had come up in the search as an alias, um, they, that so, they therefore, uh, took me down to ...to the Chicago FBI office,
[19:30.790 --> 19:32.550]  [SPEAKER_20]: which was about two blocks from the hotel.
[19:36.470 --> 19:36.950]  [SPEAKER_19]: Okay.
[19:37.310 --> 19:39.190]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, they handcuffed you, didn't they, on the way down?
[19:39.350 --> 19:40.770]  [SPEAKER_20]: Yes, they handcuffed me in the room.
[19:41.210 --> 19:44.110]  [SPEAKER_20]: And they gave me an opportunity to dress first.
[19:44.790 --> 19:45.710]  [SPEAKER_20]: How nice of them.
[19:46.230 --> 19:50.550]  [SPEAKER_20]: And, yeah, walked me to that office and handcuffed.
[19:50.550 --> 20:04.350]  [SPEAKER_20]: And when we got there, started asking questions and ran a fingerprint to check the identities on.
[20:04.650 --> 20:22.510]  [SPEAKER_20]: And basically spent the next half hour talking, trying, you know, basically establishing other things that established a difference between us until we got the negative back on the fingerprints.
[20:22.790 --> 20:24.850]  [SPEAKER_06]: So it took about a half hour for the fingerprints to go through.
[20:25.690 --> 20:26.050]  [SPEAKER_20]: Correct.
[20:26.310 --> 20:30.110]  [SPEAKER_06]: And then they realized that you were not Kevin Mitnick, and what did they do at that point?
[20:32.430 --> 20:35.610]  [SPEAKER_20]: Apologized, walked me most of the way back to the hotel, and...
[20:35.610 --> 20:37.070]  [SPEAKER_06]: Took the handcuffs off, I hope.
[20:37.250 --> 20:40.170]  [SPEAKER_20]: Yeah, they took the handcuffs off as soon as we got to the office.
[20:40.370 --> 20:40.810]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, that's good.
[20:42.030 --> 20:45.250]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, this is definitely interesting.
[20:45.250 --> 20:46.390]  [SPEAKER_06]: This happened about 8 a.m.
[20:46.470 --> 20:48.210]  [SPEAKER_06]: in the morning on Friday.
[20:48.390 --> 20:48.590]  [SPEAKER_06]: Correct?
[20:48.930 --> 20:49.130]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yes.
[20:49.570 --> 20:49.910]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[20:50.570 --> 21:03.950]  [SPEAKER_06]: Let me go now to a voice you may have just heard, Robert Steele, who has been on this program before, who is a ex-CIA case officer who now works for a company called Open Systems Solutions, I believe.
[21:04.710 --> 21:15.770]  [SPEAKER_06]: And Robert Steele has been, in fact, described by author Bruce Sterling as somebody who's 100 times smarter than Kevin Mitnick and about 10,000 times more dangerous.
[21:16.850 --> 21:21.090]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, Robert Steele had a similar type of incident.
[21:21.230 --> 21:26.850]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, not really a similar type of incident, but an incident of some sort, which happened at about 9.15 that same morning.
[21:27.070 --> 21:28.590]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, Robert, do you want to tell us what happened to you?
[21:28.590 --> 21:41.950]  [SPEAKER_21]: Well, not to bash the FBI, because I'm sure someone gave them a lead that they thought was worth following up, but they probably didn't expect to run into an old middle-aged balding case officer.
[21:43.330 --> 21:51.490]  [SPEAKER_21]: Basically, I had three young puppies outside my door, a very good-looking young woman and two fine-looking high school football captains.
[21:52.070 --> 21:55.630]  [SPEAKER_21]: They knocked on the door, and at first they said, room service.
[21:55.930 --> 22:02.590]  [SPEAKER_21]: And now this woke me up, because I had gotten in at 5 o'clock that morning from Honolulu, having flown through from Australia.
[22:02.590 --> 22:04.850]  [SPEAKER_21]: And I was just a mite irritated.
[22:04.970 --> 22:06.750]  [SPEAKER_21]: I hadn't ordered room service.
[22:07.170 --> 22:09.190]  [SPEAKER_21]: So I said, I didn't order room service.
[22:09.330 --> 22:09.710]  [SPEAKER_21]: Go away.
[22:09.870 --> 22:11.850]  [SPEAKER_21]: And they said, at that point, FBI.
[22:13.110 --> 22:23.030]  [SPEAKER_21]: Well, respecting the law and having a sense of humor, I opened the door naked and stuck my naked chest around the door and said, well, what do you want?
[22:23.990 --> 22:25.950]  [SPEAKER_21]: They were asking for Mr. Peterson.
[22:26.770 --> 22:35.410]  [SPEAKER_21]: I don't know what they thought they would find, but they found a corporate president who had a meeting in an hour and was not happy about being woken up.
[22:36.290 --> 22:39.830]  [SPEAKER_21]: I think that as soon as they saw me, they realized they'd made a mistake.
[22:40.010 --> 22:42.370]  [SPEAKER_21]: And so they didn't throw their credentials out.
[22:42.450 --> 22:48.850]  [SPEAKER_21]: They didn't come bursting into the room with doors with guns or handcuffs, and they apologized and melted back into the woodwork.
[22:49.110 --> 22:54.270]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, basically, as soon as you opened the door, they at that point said, we've got the wrong room or something?
[22:54.270 --> 22:55.290]  [SPEAKER_21]: Uh, no.
[22:55.490 --> 23:00.090]  [SPEAKER_21]: At that point, they asked me if I was Mr. Peterson, and I explained that I wasn't.
[23:00.270 --> 23:03.030]  [SPEAKER_21]: And, uh, they didn't require any identification.
[23:03.570 --> 23:07.330]  [SPEAKER_21]: I'm curious, going back to our other fellow, was there a woman in the FBI team?
[23:07.730 --> 23:08.430]  [SPEAKER_20]: Uh, yes.
[23:08.730 --> 23:09.910]  [SPEAKER_21]: And did she watch you dress?
[23:13.750 --> 23:15.050]  [SPEAKER_06]: Um... What are you getting at here?
[23:15.130 --> 23:16.610]  [SPEAKER_20]: Watching, but there was...
[23:16.610 --> 23:20.510]  [SPEAKER_20]: The lead officer, actually, was a woman.
[23:20.510 --> 23:23.090]  [SPEAKER_21]: So someone came into the room and accompanied you while you dressed?
[23:24.830 --> 23:26.490]  [SPEAKER_20]: I think she was doing something else.
[23:26.610 --> 23:27.590]  [SPEAKER_20]: I think it was one of the men.
[23:27.890 --> 23:28.330]  [SPEAKER_21]: Uh-huh.
[23:28.410 --> 23:28.970]  [SPEAKER_20]: She was...
[23:28.970 --> 23:32.370]  [SPEAKER_20]: She was actually speaking to one of the other people I was sharing the room with.
[23:32.590 --> 23:32.950]  [SPEAKER_20]: Uh-huh.
[23:32.970 --> 23:33.630]  [SPEAKER_20]: While I was dressing.
[23:34.390 --> 23:36.610]  [SPEAKER_21]: Was she in the room with you while you were dressing?
[23:36.990 --> 23:37.370]  [SPEAKER_21]: Uh, yes.
[23:37.670 --> 23:40.330]  [SPEAKER_21]: I consider that a gross invasion of your privacy.
[23:40.990 --> 23:43.010]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, well, we'll get into that in some detail.
[23:43.010 --> 23:45.790]  [SPEAKER_06]: But we still have another case that's unfolding here.
[23:46.090 --> 23:48.470]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, this happened at 9.15 to Robert Steele.
[23:48.470 --> 24:03.410]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, at 10.15, uh, Joe Stavala, who was a student at Hofstra University, uh, attending his first Computers Freedom and Privacy Convention, uh, from here in New York, uh, going out to Chicago, he also had an incident happen to him.
[24:03.510 --> 24:04.310]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, Joe, are you with us?
[24:04.490 --> 24:04.910]  [SPEAKER_22]: How are you doing?
[24:05.130 --> 24:05.410]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[24:05.570 --> 24:06.490]  [SPEAKER_06]: Tell us what happened to you.
[24:07.250 --> 24:10.550]  [SPEAKER_22]: Uh, it was about, uh, like I said, about 10.15 or so.
[24:10.550 --> 24:21.670]  [SPEAKER_22]: So, I came out of the elevator on the, uh, floor of the conference, and as soon as I stepped out of the elevator, a woman and a man came up to me, they announced it from the FBI, and they wanted to see some ID.
[24:23.030 --> 24:26.390]  [SPEAKER_22]: So, I had asked why, and they said, can I see some ID?
[24:26.530 --> 24:28.390]  [SPEAKER_22]: And I asked why, and they said, can I see some ID?
[24:28.470 --> 24:29.550]  [SPEAKER_22]: So, this went on for a little bit.
[24:30.630 --> 24:32.410]  [SPEAKER_22]: Finally, the woman asked, can I see some ID?
[24:32.530 --> 24:33.070]  [SPEAKER_22]: So, I said, okay.
[24:33.190 --> 24:33.950]  [SPEAKER_22]: I showed it to them.
[24:34.270 --> 24:40.130]  [SPEAKER_22]: And they were comparing it to a, uh, picture which I couldn't see because they were, you Looking at it towards themselves.
[24:41.850 --> 24:44.010]  [SPEAKER_22]: And I asked them what was going on, what was going on.
[24:44.170 --> 24:45.910]  [SPEAKER_22]: So they asked me to take a little walk with them.
[24:46.010 --> 24:46.410]  [SPEAKER_22]: I said, okay.
[24:47.330 --> 24:52.890]  [SPEAKER_22]: So she went to go get some other people, and I was talking to the guy, and I asked him what was going on.
[24:52.990 --> 25:01.350]  [SPEAKER_22]: And what he told me was, I look like somebody who was associated with the World Trade Center bombings.
[25:01.530 --> 25:03.910]  [SPEAKER_22]: One of their accomplices, who was supposed to be in Chicago.
[25:05.290 --> 25:06.030]  [SPEAKER_06]: I see.
[25:07.010 --> 25:08.090]  [SPEAKER_22]: Do you look Iranian?
[25:08.430 --> 25:09.190]  [SPEAKER_22]: I don't know.
[25:09.530 --> 25:11.410]  [SPEAKER_22]: I mean, that's what they told me.
[25:11.510 --> 25:12.430]  [SPEAKER_22]: So I didn't know.
[25:12.670 --> 25:13.350]  [SPEAKER_22]: So I said, okay.
[25:13.430 --> 25:14.950]  [SPEAKER_22]: So he asked me if I'd take a little walk with him.
[25:14.970 --> 25:15.590]  [SPEAKER_22]: So I said, fine.
[25:16.490 --> 25:18.930]  [SPEAKER_22]: So we took a little walk into the room where we eat lunch.
[25:19.070 --> 25:23.630]  [SPEAKER_22]: So we were sitting in there, and me and him were just chatting on a social level.
[25:24.750 --> 25:27.230]  [SPEAKER_22]: And he looks down at my sneakers, you know.
[25:27.670 --> 25:28.850]  [SPEAKER_22]: And he's like, so, you know.
[25:28.890 --> 25:30.390]  [SPEAKER_22]: And I was wearing a pair of black Reeboks.
[25:30.610 --> 25:32.390]  [SPEAKER_22]: And he just was talking about my sneakers.
[25:32.390 --> 25:33.710]  [SPEAKER_22]: And I was like, well, whatever, you know.
[25:33.830 --> 25:34.790]  [SPEAKER_22]: They're my brothers, this and that.
[25:34.790 --> 25:39.470]  [SPEAKER_22]: And so he goes down and, like, looks at my sneakers, and he, like, grabs my ankles.
[25:40.590 --> 25:42.850]  [SPEAKER_22]: So, anyway, I didn't know whatever it was.
[25:42.990 --> 25:44.030]  [SPEAKER_22]: So we're just standing around talking.
[25:44.030 --> 25:47.550]  [SPEAKER_22]: So the woman comes back over with the other FBI guys.
[25:48.990 --> 25:51.790]  [SPEAKER_22]: And this one guy, I don't remember his name, he shakes my hand and says, hi.
[25:52.070 --> 25:53.610]  [SPEAKER_22]: And he says, can I see your left leg?
[25:54.710 --> 25:57.050]  [SPEAKER_22]: So, and all this time, I was one, you know, whatever.
[25:57.370 --> 25:58.290]  [SPEAKER_22]: So I showed a guy on my left leg.
[25:58.350 --> 26:01.050]  [SPEAKER_22]: He reaches down and grabs my ankle, you know.
[26:01.470 --> 26:02.550]  [SPEAKER_22]: And I'm like, whatever.
[26:02.690 --> 26:04.150]  [SPEAKER_22]: Then he looks at me and just says, you can go.
[26:05.190 --> 26:06.430]  [SPEAKER_22]: And so I said, okay.
[26:06.570 --> 26:11.010]  [SPEAKER_22]: So I walked around, I came back, and I asked him if I could see the picture of the person who they were looking for.
[26:11.550 --> 26:12.250]  [SPEAKER_22]: So they said, yeah.
[26:12.350 --> 26:13.170]  [SPEAKER_22]: They showed him to me.
[26:13.870 --> 26:16.050]  [SPEAKER_22]: I mean, I saw somewhat of a resemblance.
[26:16.050 --> 26:17.390]  [SPEAKER_22]: So it wasn't anything major.
[26:17.930 --> 26:19.010]  [SPEAKER_22]: And that was it.
[26:19.050 --> 26:19.450]  [SPEAKER_22]: And I left.
[26:19.570 --> 26:20.650]  [SPEAKER_22]: And I went over to the conference.
[26:22.050 --> 26:22.810]  [SPEAKER_06]: I see.
[26:23.090 --> 26:23.450]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[26:23.730 --> 26:30.090]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, what we've been able to gather out of this, apart from what happened to Lee Nussbaum, they apparently were looking for Kevin Mitnick.
[26:30.430 --> 26:38.790]  [SPEAKER_06]: The case with Robert Steele and with Joe Stavala, apparently, from what we were able to gather, they were looking for another hacker that has been on the run.
[26:38.870 --> 26:44.670]  [SPEAKER_06]: Actually, a hacker-turned-informant from the West Coast who goes by the handle Agent Steele.
[26:44.670 --> 26:49.670]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, Agent Steele, Robert Steele, maybe they thought there was a connection somehow.
[26:50.030 --> 26:52.210]  [SPEAKER_06]: His last name does happen to be Peterson.
[26:52.490 --> 26:58.050]  [SPEAKER_06]: So when they were asking for Mr. Peterson, there's no small doubt that that was the Peterson they were looking for.
[26:58.530 --> 27:06.830]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, what's interesting about this Agent Steele character is that he has a wooden leg, which would explain why they were looking at Mr. Stavala's leg.
[27:07.330 --> 27:10.910]  [SPEAKER_06]: What's interesting, though, is that he doesn't really look all that much like him.
[27:10.990 --> 27:17.690]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, he's got long, dark hair, and I believe Agent Steele has long, blonde hair, if I'm not mistaken.
[27:17.690 --> 27:19.970]  [SPEAKER_06]: But they're not really the same build.
[27:21.030 --> 27:33.470]  [SPEAKER_06]: This is an interesting turn of events because basically what happened at the conference from that point on is that all kinds of rumors and allegations went flying around as far as who was watching who.
[27:33.810 --> 27:38.690]  [SPEAKER_06]: Were there lists being given out by the hotel to various agencies?
[27:38.930 --> 27:40.210]  [SPEAKER_06]: Were rooms being searched?
[27:40.330 --> 27:41.490]  [SPEAKER_06]: Were other people being questioned?
[27:41.650 --> 27:42.370]  [SPEAKER_06]: Were people arrested?
[27:42.950 --> 27:45.690]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, you know, this is computers freedom and privacy.
[27:45.970 --> 27:49.170]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's probably the worst type of place for this kind of thing to happen.
[27:50.570 --> 27:55.030]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, unfortunately, the FBI did this in front of a lot of people.
[27:55.270 --> 28:00.290]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, not necessarily the actual questioning, but word of it got out.
[28:00.470 --> 28:05.210]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, you know, you didn't have to make any phone calls because everybody you would call would be right there.
[28:05.310 --> 28:08.370]  [SPEAKER_06]: The civil liberties lawyers, the media people, they were all there.
[28:08.730 --> 28:11.710]  [SPEAKER_06]: And it's no surprise that this made it to the New York Times the next day.
[28:12.990 --> 28:19.310]  [SPEAKER_06]: And it's kind of funny in a way, but also there's a part of this that is not so funny.
[28:19.430 --> 28:24.030]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, I imagine that at least a couple of you were kind of shaken up by this.
[28:24.270 --> 28:25.170]  [SPEAKER_06]: How about you, Lee?
[28:26.610 --> 28:34.950]  [SPEAKER_20]: Initially, at least until they got to the office and started showing that they weren't so sure.
[28:37.450 --> 28:39.690]  [SPEAKER_21]: But even still, it's...
[28:40.330 --> 28:43.610]  [SPEAKER_21]: But they didn't get you all the way back to the point at which they arrested you?
[28:45.210 --> 28:45.610]  [SPEAKER_21]: I'm sorry?
[28:45.790 --> 28:48.070]  [SPEAKER_21]: They just threw you out in the street and said, find your own way back?
[28:50.130 --> 28:52.170]  [SPEAKER_20]: No, they brought me close to the hotel.
[28:55.070 --> 28:57.030]  [SPEAKER_20]: They didn't basically come back in with me.
[28:57.130 --> 28:58.550]  [SPEAKER_20]: They didn't escort me back in.
[28:59.150 --> 29:11.890]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, after the conference was over and the conference ended Saturday night, there was a massive push to have a post-conference session with one of the FBI representatives.
[29:11.890 --> 29:13.090]  [SPEAKER_06]: His name is Jim Settle.
[29:13.190 --> 29:14.730]  [SPEAKER_06]: And he's a very forthright person.
[29:14.830 --> 29:16.190]  [SPEAKER_06]: He's fun to talk to.
[29:16.370 --> 29:18.130]  [SPEAKER_06]: He's open and honest, I think.
[29:19.470 --> 29:23.190]  [SPEAKER_06]: And he answered everybody's questions as far as what this was all about.
[29:23.490 --> 29:32.290]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, you know, while he didn't give out all the information that people wanted him to give out, he did answer a few questions and just give the sense...
[29:32.290 --> 29:36.330]  [SPEAKER_06]: I found a sense sort of of frustration on their part.
[29:36.330 --> 29:37.550]  [SPEAKER_06]: I can kind of imagine this.
[29:37.630 --> 29:45.330]  [SPEAKER_06]: And the way you sort of feel sorry for the FBI because, you know, they wanted to catch these people so badly and their luck was not running with them.
[29:45.330 --> 29:59.410]  [SPEAKER_06]: But one thing that he said, which stuck with me, and something which I think contrasts with what we're being told here today, he was adamant in that no more than two FBI people were working at any one time.
[29:59.530 --> 30:03.070]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, I believe, Joe, you said there were a couple of people.
[30:03.290 --> 30:04.590]  [SPEAKER_06]: How many people were there for you?
[30:05.390 --> 30:08.110]  [SPEAKER_22]: Well, initially when I got stopped, there was a man and a woman.
[30:08.110 --> 30:15.190]  [SPEAKER_22]: And when, finally, when I was talking to the one guy, the woman came over with two other people.
[30:15.650 --> 30:16.230]  [SPEAKER_16]: Uh-huh.
[30:16.430 --> 30:24.490]  [SPEAKER_22]: The one FBI guy was there at the museum, what was it, Saturday night.
[30:24.710 --> 30:24.970]  [SPEAKER_06]: Right.
[30:25.130 --> 30:31.750]  [SPEAKER_22]: I recognized him from there, and there was some other guy who I didn't recognize, so there was at least four people when I was talking to them.
[30:31.890 --> 30:32.930]  [SPEAKER_06]: Four people in the hotel.
[30:32.930 --> 30:37.450]  [SPEAKER_22]: Yeah, when I was, there was the guy who was with me, the woman that first came, and then two other guys.
[30:37.630 --> 30:38.010]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh-huh.
[30:38.130 --> 30:38.890]  [SPEAKER_22]: So there was four of them.
[30:39.090 --> 30:40.610]  [SPEAKER_06]: Robert, how many people came to your room?
[30:40.770 --> 30:41.210]  [SPEAKER_21]: Uh, three.
[30:41.430 --> 30:46.870]  [SPEAKER_21]: Good-looking blonde, about 5'6", and two young studs.
[30:47.290 --> 30:50.410]  [SPEAKER_21]: Also blonde, about 5'8", 5'9", maybe a little higher.
[30:50.990 --> 30:52.270]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, so you had three people.
[30:52.570 --> 30:53.110]  [SPEAKER_06]: Lee, how about you?
[30:53.150 --> 30:54.410]  [SPEAKER_06]: How many people were actually in the hotel?
[30:55.510 --> 30:56.830]  [SPEAKER_20]: There were four at the room.
[30:57.090 --> 30:57.910]  [SPEAKER_06]: Four at the room.
[30:57.910 --> 31:05.650]  [SPEAKER_06]: So this is interesting, because this was said in front of many, many people in the conference room, that there were no more than two people working at any one time, so...
[31:05.650 --> 31:09.070]  [SPEAKER_20]: None of those four were at the conference.
[31:09.650 --> 31:10.870]  [SPEAKER_06]: None of them were at the conference.
[31:11.230 --> 31:11.690]  [SPEAKER_20]: Yeah, mine were.
[31:11.690 --> 31:15.750]  [SPEAKER_20]: So they may have been referring to only two of the conference participants.
[31:16.970 --> 31:18.010]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, I don't know.
[31:18.150 --> 31:19.310]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's not the way it came across.
[31:19.450 --> 31:24.050]  [SPEAKER_06]: It came across very definitely, as there were no more than two FBI agents in the hotel at any one time.
[31:25.710 --> 31:28.230]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, now, Joe, how do you feel?
[31:28.370 --> 31:30.010]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, were you shaken up by what happened to you?
[31:30.450 --> 31:31.310]  [SPEAKER_22]: I thought it was a joke.
[31:31.610 --> 31:31.990]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh-huh.
[31:32.510 --> 31:36.090]  [SPEAKER_22]: When the whole thing started, I mean, I came out of the elevator, and there's two people.
[31:36.290 --> 31:38.070]  [SPEAKER_22]: I was like, what could the FBI possibly want?
[31:38.170 --> 31:42.150]  [SPEAKER_22]: You know, I mean, I guess, you know, I'm new pretty much at all this and everything like that.
[31:42.370 --> 31:43.790]  [SPEAKER_22]: So at first, I thought it was a joke.
[31:43.970 --> 31:46.930]  [SPEAKER_22]: And then after a while, I was like, I guess, you know, I was like, these people are serious.
[31:47.130 --> 31:51.550]  [SPEAKER_22]: And, you know, they told me this World Trade Center bombing thing and all this, and I was just like...
[31:51.550 --> 31:52.610]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, what was that all about?
[31:52.610 --> 31:54.150]  [SPEAKER_06]: Did they ever explain what they meant by that?
[31:54.530 --> 31:54.750]  [SPEAKER_22]: No.
[31:55.030 --> 32:03.950]  [SPEAKER_22]: They told me when I got stopped, they just said that somebody who was associated or an accomplice or whatever with the people from the World Trade Center bombing was going to be in Chicago.
[32:04.310 --> 32:10.310]  [SPEAKER_22]: The FBI guy told me somebody else got stopped at the Hyatt either earlier that morning or the night before.
[32:11.430 --> 32:12.730]  [SPEAKER_22]: And that's all I got out of them.
[32:13.390 --> 32:15.350]  [SPEAKER_22]: But he had said the person...
[32:15.350 --> 32:24.470]  [SPEAKER_22]: The guy who stopped when I was talking to him, he said, we don't think you're the person because he's, you know, like this tall and he stuck his hand like about five or six inches above my head.
[32:24.690 --> 32:28.330]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, couldn't they figure that out before they cornered you like that?
[32:28.690 --> 32:30.110]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah, but then they grabbed his ankles.
[32:30.830 --> 32:32.210]  [SPEAKER_06]: Then they grabbed your ankles, right.
[32:32.410 --> 32:32.530]  [SPEAKER_06]: Right.
[32:33.810 --> 32:37.630]  [SPEAKER_21]: So, I mean, either you're a wooden leg and a former hacker or you're a World Trade Center bomber.
[32:37.770 --> 32:38.250]  [SPEAKER_21]: Which is it?
[32:38.750 --> 32:43.370]  [SPEAKER_22]: I never got an answer from them, you know, that they told me that that's what I did and this and that.
[32:43.550 --> 32:51.090]  [SPEAKER_22]: And when I had spoke to the FBI guy that they were having a meeting with, why they told me this and that, he couldn't give me an answer.
[32:51.270 --> 32:57.170]  [SPEAKER_22]: Why they told me why I was associated with this instead of telling me they were looking for the steel person.
[32:58.210 --> 33:06.090]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, they never really gave you an explanation as to what the World Trade Center thing was or why they thought you were the person.
[33:06.090 --> 33:22.130]  [SPEAKER_22]: The only answer I got from the person at the meeting was, he said he didn't know why they told me that, but, like, an assumption of his was that they were trying to keep it pretty low-key and, like, if they were telling me they were looking for a hacker and this and that,
[33:22.470 --> 33:23.370]  [SPEAKER_22]: you know, it might have spread.
[33:23.530 --> 33:26.430]  [SPEAKER_22]: And I guess they weren't planning on this whole thing happening.
[33:26.430 --> 33:29.310]  [SPEAKER_22]: So, they just, I guess, concocted some story or this or that.
[33:29.410 --> 33:30.490]  [SPEAKER_22]: And that's all I can get out of him.
[33:30.550 --> 33:33.870]  [SPEAKER_22]: He wouldn't really go too much farther than that.
[33:33.870 --> 33:46.050]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, we're talking with three people that had several, that were the victims, I guess, is the best way to say this, of some sort of a search by the FBI.
[33:46.430 --> 33:54.450]  [SPEAKER_06]: The question is whether or not this kind of thing is correct, whether this kind of thing should occur, whether we can expect this kind of thing to occur.
[33:54.450 --> 34:08.410]  [SPEAKER_06]: My thoughts on it are that this is rather disturbing because, well, I mean, when something like this happens to you and you're innocent, a lot of people seem to think that, well, you can just continue with your life, you did nothing wrong.
[34:08.670 --> 34:10.610]  [SPEAKER_06]: But it does shake you up.
[34:10.630 --> 34:20.690]  [SPEAKER_06]: It does make you a bit jittery afterwards, even if you've done absolutely nothing wrong, to have somebody come up to you and say that you're suspected of some horrific crime.
[34:20.690 --> 34:26.610]  [SPEAKER_06]: And also, if you tell other people that this happened to you, they might start looking at you with a bit of doubt in their eyes.
[34:27.070 --> 34:30.350]  [SPEAKER_06]: So it's not quite that simple a matter of just walking away from it.
[34:30.510 --> 34:32.150]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's a case of mistaken identity.
[34:32.490 --> 34:46.150]  [SPEAKER_06]: The other issue is, are we going to have a society where we can simply pull somebody aside if they look like somebody or if they act somehow the same way as somebody who's wanted?
[34:46.850 --> 34:49.510]  [SPEAKER_06]: How far are we going to let that go?
[34:50.450 --> 35:05.630]  [SPEAKER_06]: In the past, we've had incidents where somebody of a particular ethnic race was wanted, and the people looking for that particular person decided to simply call in everybody from that particular ethnic race and treat them all as suspects.
[35:05.750 --> 35:08.230]  [SPEAKER_06]: Is this far from that particular scenario?
[35:08.230 --> 35:21.350]  [SPEAKER_06]: One thing that I asked Jim Settle at the post-conference meeting afterwards, I asked him, how many people are you looking for?
[35:21.910 --> 35:31.130]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's a fair shot that at least one FBI suspect is similar-looking to people in this room.
[35:31.630 --> 35:36.290]  [SPEAKER_06]: Can we all expect to be questioned at some point simply because we look like somebody?
[35:37.090 --> 35:45.050]  [SPEAKER_06]: It was a bizarre circumstance, one I could not have written to be more bizarre than this.
[35:46.590 --> 35:51.950]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'd like to know if you folks have any comments on that, and I'd also like to open up the phone lines to our listeners so that they can ask any questions.
[35:52.090 --> 35:53.950]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212-279-3400.
[35:54.130 --> 35:59.470]  [SPEAKER_06]: Warning, though, our phone lines are acting weird, so it's possible that even if you do get through, you won't be heard.
[35:59.630 --> 36:00.930]  [SPEAKER_06]: So just keep that in mind.
[36:00.950 --> 36:02.030]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's a risk you have to take.
[36:02.770 --> 36:05.470]  [SPEAKER_06]: Any thoughts from any of our guests tonight?
[36:05.470 --> 36:08.190]  [SPEAKER_21]: Well, I wouldn't make that much of it.
[36:08.230 --> 36:11.530]  [SPEAKER_21]: I feel bad for the fellow that got handcuffed and taken down there.
[36:11.690 --> 36:21.170]  [SPEAKER_21]: I mean, from my point of view, working out of his room and looking through his identification, they should have rapidly established that he was not traveling under a false identity.
[36:21.450 --> 36:29.570]  [SPEAKER_21]: I mean, between pocket litter and other elements, they should have very clearly seen this guy was more than just a false driving license.
[36:29.570 --> 36:39.830]  [SPEAKER_21]: So from my point of view, they didn't take the time in the hotel to really thoroughly vet whether this person was traveling in alias or was, in fact, an imposter.
[36:41.190 --> 36:43.290]  [SPEAKER_21]: But as far as myself, I'm happy.
[36:44.110 --> 36:46.630]  [SPEAKER_21]: You know, they looked at me.
[36:46.670 --> 36:50.410]  [SPEAKER_21]: It took me less than 60 seconds to blow them away.
[36:50.410 --> 36:52.290]  [SPEAKER_21]: And then I went back to sleep.
[36:52.810 --> 36:54.450]  [SPEAKER_21]: So they treated me well.
[36:54.910 --> 36:56.490]  [SPEAKER_06]: But everybody knows who you are.
[36:56.570 --> 36:57.450]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's what I don't understand.
[36:57.850 --> 36:59.750]  [SPEAKER_06]: Everybody knows Robert Steele.
[36:59.870 --> 37:00.410]  [SPEAKER_21]: They know who I am.
[37:00.550 --> 37:11.050]  [SPEAKER_21]: I think they simply were looking at a Robert Steele, and they had no idea they were dealing with someone who's been written about by Alvin Toffler or done these other things.
[37:11.430 --> 37:11.690]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh-huh.
[37:12.770 --> 37:14.250]  [SPEAKER_06]: Joe, do you feel the same way?
[37:15.430 --> 37:16.310]  [SPEAKER_22]: Uh, here and there.
[37:18.230 --> 37:28.710]  [SPEAKER_22]: I feel, I guess, you know, I mean, the guy who saw me, I mean, there's a difference between me and the person of, like, five, you know, actually, like, seven or eight inches, supposedly, between me and him.
[37:30.070 --> 37:32.610]  [SPEAKER_22]: And how they could have mistaken him for me, I don't know.
[37:32.710 --> 37:34.770]  [SPEAKER_22]: But the guy said that he saw me sitting down.
[37:36.030 --> 37:39.450]  [SPEAKER_22]: You know, but the conferences weren't that long, so I'm sure he could have saw me walking around.
[37:39.830 --> 37:40.210]  [SPEAKER_16]: Uh-huh.
[37:40.210 --> 37:45.750]  [SPEAKER_22]: You know, so how he made a mistake like that, I'm not really sure, to tell you the whole truth on something like that.
[37:45.770 --> 37:46.830]  [SPEAKER_06]: How did they track you?
[37:46.870 --> 37:49.710]  [SPEAKER_06]: Because you said they got you just as you were walking out of the elevator.
[37:49.910 --> 37:51.490]  [SPEAKER_06]: So how long were they watching you for?
[37:51.690 --> 37:56.850]  [SPEAKER_22]: He said, when I spoke to him after the meeting, he said he saw me Thursday.
[37:56.850 --> 38:00.430]  [SPEAKER_22]: He said, like, I saw you on Wednesday or Thursday, and I said, I wasn't here Wednesday.
[38:01.890 --> 38:03.590]  [SPEAKER_22]: So he said, oh, it must have been on Thursday.
[38:03.890 --> 38:13.610]  [SPEAKER_22]: He said, I saw you sitting down on Thursday, and I mentioned, you know, whatever the procedure is, and they were waiting for me since, like, 8.30, Friday morning.
[38:13.870 --> 38:20.030]  [SPEAKER_22]: And I had missed the first seminar, so to speak, Friday morning, and I didn't get there until, like, quarter after 10.
[38:20.330 --> 38:26.150]  [SPEAKER_22]: So supposedly, they must have been there from, like, 8.30 or so, right outside the elevator, just waiting for me to come out.
[38:27.810 --> 38:28.770]  [SPEAKER_22]: I thought they were there.
[38:30.270 --> 38:30.870]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's something.
[38:30.990 --> 38:45.570]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, how do you guys feel, those of you that are attending this kind of a conference for the first time, knowing that any time you go to a conference like this, you could be watched by a government agency and compared to various wanted people.
[38:45.610 --> 38:47.010]  [SPEAKER_06]: Does it affect you?
[38:47.190 --> 38:49.250]  [SPEAKER_06]: Do you think you'll be going to conferences like this in the future?
[38:50.830 --> 38:51.530]  [SPEAKER_06]: Lee, Joe?
[38:52.330 --> 38:52.950]  [SPEAKER_22]: I'll answer.
[38:53.130 --> 38:58.250]  [SPEAKER_22]: I think being my first time here was a new experience, the whole thing like that.
[38:59.330 --> 39:00.630]  [SPEAKER_22]: I'll definitely go again.
[39:01.090 --> 39:03.670]  [SPEAKER_22]: You know, I don't see why, how this would stop me from going.
[39:03.750 --> 39:05.010]  [SPEAKER_22]: This is something I'm interested in.
[39:05.170 --> 39:08.510]  [SPEAKER_22]: It wouldn't stop me from going to future conferences and stuff like that.
[39:08.910 --> 39:14.770]  [SPEAKER_22]: But the whole thing of being watched and everything, that was definitely something that I'm not used to.
[39:14.890 --> 39:15.930]  [SPEAKER_22]: And it was a little odd.
[39:17.370 --> 39:20.630]  [SPEAKER_22]: But maybe in the future, you know, you have to take a look around.
[39:20.830 --> 39:23.710]  [SPEAKER_22]: And, you know, you hope this thing doesn't happen everywhere you go.
[39:24.670 --> 39:27.650]  [SPEAKER_22]: But it wouldn't stop me from going to other conferences, definitely not.
[39:28.130 --> 39:28.350]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh-huh.
[39:28.770 --> 39:29.550]  [SPEAKER_06]: Lee, how about you?
[39:29.970 --> 39:31.610]  [SPEAKER_20]: No, it's not going to stop me.
[39:32.730 --> 39:37.630]  [SPEAKER_20]: I am probably going to spend more effort than I'd like to establishing,
[39:41.190 --> 39:44.110]  [SPEAKER_20]: carrying more around to establish my identity and so forth.
[39:44.110 --> 39:44.610]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh-huh.
[39:45.130 --> 39:45.970]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, it's funny.
[39:46.110 --> 39:54.570]  [SPEAKER_06]: At the end of the conference, everybody there, just to show the level of the sense of humor at these things, everybody was wearing a Kevin Mitnick badge.
[39:55.510 --> 39:59.410]  [SPEAKER_06]: So it made it very difficult to see who was who, in fact.
[39:59.970 --> 40:02.330]  [SPEAKER_06]: Even the NSA guy was wearing a Kevin Mitnick badge.
[40:03.470 --> 40:07.370]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, you know, while we can look at this with humor, there is a serious side to this.
[40:07.370 --> 40:12.930]  [SPEAKER_06]: This is something that can be kind of troubling, can be kind of ominous.
[40:13.770 --> 40:25.710]  [SPEAKER_06]: For one thing, how many hackers do you think are going to feel right participating in this kind of thing in the future, especially if it's possible that they might have done something which got some company mad at them at some point?
[40:25.910 --> 40:27.110]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, you never really know.
[40:27.210 --> 40:35.490]  [SPEAKER_06]: When you're a hacker, you never really know who it is that wants to lock you up for what, because it's possible you can make enemies and not even know it.
[40:36.130 --> 40:38.510]  [SPEAKER_06]: So that's something that needs to be considered.
[40:39.130 --> 40:42.710]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, you know, guys, it is computers' freedom and privacy.
[40:42.850 --> 40:45.410]  [SPEAKER_06]: There is something of an element of trust there.
[40:46.050 --> 40:54.790]  [SPEAKER_06]: Even if somebody is wanted for something, it's just, you know, it's kind of not the right forum to have searches and seizures.
[40:55.430 --> 41:03.450]  [SPEAKER_06]: While I sympathize with them trying to catch people they believe to be criminals, this, I think, is a very damaging thing.
[41:03.570 --> 41:08.110]  [SPEAKER_06]: Does anybody here think the FBI can save face after something like this?
[41:08.370 --> 41:09.250]  [SPEAKER_06]: Robert, how about you?
[41:10.810 --> 41:13.090]  [SPEAKER_21]: Well, I think they need instruction.
[41:13.130 --> 41:15.050]  [SPEAKER_21]: I don't think they did anything wrong.
[41:15.050 --> 41:18.170]  [SPEAKER_21]: I think they were doing their job as they understand it.
[41:24.080 --> 41:29.180]  [SPEAKER_21]: What we came out with was that, you know, hacking is cutting-edge elegance.
[41:29.260 --> 41:30.420]  [SPEAKER_21]: It's not breaking the law.
[41:31.400 --> 41:37.260]  [SPEAKER_21]: And the fact that our computer security across the country is so rotten, so vulnerable.
[41:38.140 --> 41:43.240]  [SPEAKER_21]: From my point of view, when someone cracks a system, out of curiosity, it's not hacking.
[41:43.240 --> 41:45.300]  [SPEAKER_21]: It's bad engineering on the system side.
[41:45.960 --> 41:48.380]  [SPEAKER_21]: I think we need a redefinition of the law.
[41:48.920 --> 41:59.500]  [SPEAKER_21]: We need to place a much more significant responsibility on system administrators and on hardware and software developers to embed security.
[42:00.080 --> 42:06.280]  [SPEAKER_21]: I was very annoyed to have the house break-in analogy used during the hacking panel.
[42:06.440 --> 42:10.000]  [SPEAKER_21]: And with the fellow there that was asking the question, I mean, he just didn't get it.
[42:10.180 --> 42:18.360]  [SPEAKER_21]: We don't have a nationwide computer system that is all these elegantly constructed houses with locks and locked windows and everything.
[42:18.360 --> 42:25.040]  [SPEAKER_21]: What we have is a development that's just barely under construction and houses that are nothing more than frameworks.
[42:25.040 --> 42:28.400]  [SPEAKER_21]: They haven't even had the outside walls applied.
[42:28.540 --> 42:30.680]  [SPEAKER_21]: They certainly don't have doors and windows in place.
[42:30.920 --> 42:32.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: Or the house analogy is inevitable.
[42:33.260 --> 42:39.860]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yes, but in that context, people have to understand that hackers are, in fact, a priceless national resource.
[42:40.040 --> 42:42.080]  [SPEAKER_21]: They are pushing the edge of the envelope.
[42:42.240 --> 42:46.880]  [SPEAKER_21]: And the reality is that both the law and the engineering are retarded.
[42:47.980 --> 42:48.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[42:48.720 --> 42:49.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'd like to go to some phone calls.
[42:50.020 --> 42:51.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212-279-3400.
[42:51.680 --> 42:57.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: We're speaking with three people that were questioned by the FBI at the Computers, Freedom, and Privacy Conference.
[42:58.920 --> 43:02.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: And last I heard, all the people they were looking for are still at large.
[43:02.980 --> 43:06.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: So that's, I guess, a complete washout for them.
[43:07.840 --> 43:08.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: Let's take some phone calls.
[43:09.140 --> 43:09.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: Good evening.
[43:09.760 --> 43:10.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: You're on.
[43:10.580 --> 43:10.920]  [SPEAKER_24]: Hi.
[43:11.980 --> 43:12.380]  [SPEAKER_24]: Okay.
[43:12.600 --> 43:24.320]  [SPEAKER_24]: What I was thinking of as I heard the three stories was, I think it was in Alexander Solzhenitsyn's Gulag Archipelago when he was talking about when the police come to take you away.
[43:24.460 --> 43:31.020]  [SPEAKER_24]: They always come very late at night or very, very early in the morning so that everyone's asleep and no one knows what happened to you.
[43:31.560 --> 43:32.780]  [SPEAKER_24]: You just disappear.
[43:35.000 --> 43:51.620]  [SPEAKER_24]: And I remember around the same time that I was reading that, which is going back a long time, it was back in the days when everybody was smoking pot and the police were raiding people's houses and people didn't quite know how to receive the police.
[43:52.580 --> 44:00.060]  [SPEAKER_24]: The advice was given out to never, ever invite them in and don't cooperate and make a lot of noise.
[44:00.060 --> 44:03.740]  [SPEAKER_24]: Draw a lot of attention to what they're doing so that you have witnesses.
[44:04.780 --> 44:18.120]  [SPEAKER_24]: And so the first thing I thought of when I heard of these stories that took place in a hotel room or rooms was of these little sort of pocket-sized alarms that they're selling.
[44:19.480 --> 44:20.280]  [SPEAKER_24]: I don't know.
[44:20.280 --> 44:28.480]  [SPEAKER_24]: Well, these high-tech stores have them and they're for travelers to use on their hotel room in case someone breaks into the room.
[44:28.600 --> 44:35.420]  [SPEAKER_24]: You can pull the plug on it and a loud alarm will sound to frighten away the burglar.
[44:35.700 --> 44:39.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, there's also the question of people coming in to make up the beds.
[44:39.260 --> 44:52.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: At least to an interesting point, one other person, in fact an employee of AT&T, claimed that his room was made up twice and that the hotel had told him that he was on a list of names that was given to the FBI.
[44:53.400 --> 44:55.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: We questioned the hotel staff later on in the day.
[44:55.900 --> 44:57.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: They denied any knowledge of this.
[44:57.620 --> 45:06.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: However, the FBI agent that we questioned afterwards said that the hotel had to have known about it because they could not have gotten permission without that.
[45:06.600 --> 45:08.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: So a lot of conflicting stories here.
[45:09.240 --> 45:13.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: And yeah, it's good to be able to know when somebody is getting into your hotel room.
[45:13.360 --> 45:18.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: However, in a case like that, people do enter it to do various things legitimately.
[45:18.920 --> 45:22.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's hard to differentiate that between the illegitimate ones.
[45:22.260 --> 45:22.460]  [SPEAKER_24]: Yeah.
[45:22.840 --> 45:35.820]  [SPEAKER_24]: The thing is that, especially when you know that you're not, that you're not guilty of any transgressions, it's really a good idea not to go anywhere with anyone until you at least know that some of your friends know that you're going somewhere.
[45:38.540 --> 45:40.680]  [SPEAKER_24]: It's, you know, you're not guilty of anything.
[45:40.680 --> 45:42.820]  [SPEAKER_24]: There's no reason not to make a lot of noise.
[45:42.820 --> 45:45.440]  [SPEAKER_24]: Especially if somebody wakes you up at 4 o'clock in the morning.
[45:45.860 --> 45:47.280]  [SPEAKER_21]: Well, that's an interesting point.
[45:47.300 --> 46:02.080]  [SPEAKER_21]: And when you're all alone in a strange city and you don't have a lawyer handy, it did occur to me, thinking about it afterwards, that had I really been concerned, by closing the door and getting time to dress, my first call would have been to the CFP press room.
[46:02.240 --> 46:02.580]  [SPEAKER_21]: Right.
[46:03.720 --> 46:04.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, it's always good.
[46:04.920 --> 46:14.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I think this is very important here, that all three of these people, their first instinct was to tell people, not to hide, not to cover it up, not to do anything like that, but to tell people.
[46:15.500 --> 46:16.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I think that's very important.
[46:17.060 --> 46:21.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: When something happens, you let people know about it so that there's no mystery.
[46:21.340 --> 46:21.560]  [SPEAKER_24]: Yeah.
[46:21.700 --> 46:27.820]  [SPEAKER_24]: And even while it's happening, because, in fact, although these people said they were FBI agents, they could have been kidnappers.
[46:28.420 --> 46:29.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's a possibility.
[46:29.560 --> 46:30.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: Thanks for your call.
[46:30.540 --> 46:30.680]  [SPEAKER_24]: Bye.
[46:32.440 --> 46:33.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, let's take another phone call.
[46:33.780 --> 46:35.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: 212-279-3400.
[46:35.860 --> 46:36.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: Good evening.
[46:36.400 --> 46:36.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: You're on.
[46:37.080 --> 46:37.580]  [SPEAKER_10]: Hi, Emmanuel.
[46:37.580 --> 46:38.140]  [SPEAKER_10]: How are you doing?
[46:38.320 --> 46:38.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, how are you?
[46:39.080 --> 46:39.560]  [SPEAKER_10]: Just a second.
[46:39.600 --> 46:40.360]  [SPEAKER_10]: Let me turn on the radio.
[46:41.080 --> 46:49.980]  [SPEAKER_10]: First of all, speaking of phones acting weird, just on that note, right now, our telephone here, where I live...
[46:49.980 --> 46:51.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: You'll have to speak up, because we're having trouble getting you.
[46:51.820 --> 46:58.560]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay, this telephone that I'm on right now, because you were talking about phones acting weird, something very strange is going on with our telephone.
[46:58.820 --> 47:05.360]  [SPEAKER_10]: When people call us, they, unless they're local to me, like in the same city, they're getting AT&T.
[47:05.520 --> 47:09.180]  [SPEAKER_10]: They're getting some sort of a true voice demonstration when they call me.
[47:09.400 --> 47:11.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: I do know there's something going on in New York.
[47:11.880 --> 47:13.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: I was talking to a phone company representative today.
[47:13.640 --> 47:27.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: They said that some network, and of course, speaking to a phone company representative, you have to realize 90% of what you're hearing probably isn't true, but they said some network is not working right, and their phone calls are not going where they're supposed to be going.
[47:27.300 --> 47:31.500]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, they're certainly not, because I'm getting calls for the 100 radio station.
[47:31.700 --> 47:36.740]  [SPEAKER_10]: People are calling me, you know, they say they're calling the 800 number, and they end up getting me.
[47:37.040 --> 47:38.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: And they're calling what radio station?
[47:38.880 --> 47:39.280]  [SPEAKER_10]: 100.
[47:40.220 --> 47:40.660]  [SPEAKER_10]: WHDV.
[47:40.980 --> 47:41.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: Really?
[47:41.480 --> 47:43.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: And they're calling an 800 number, and they're getting you?
[47:43.260 --> 47:43.760]  [SPEAKER_10]: They're getting me.
[47:44.140 --> 47:54.000]  [SPEAKER_10]: Somehow, I mean, the AT&T representative said, that I talked to about this, said that all the 800 calls have to, you know, terminate at a, you know, regular phone number.
[47:54.320 --> 47:54.760]  [SPEAKER_19]: Right.
[47:54.760 --> 47:58.580]  [SPEAKER_10]: I'm assuming that somehow they switched this phone number, and now they're being routed to me.
[47:58.860 --> 47:59.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: How many calls have you gotten?
[48:00.180 --> 48:01.980]  [SPEAKER_10]: I've, I just took the phone off the hook.
[48:02.400 --> 48:05.200]  [SPEAKER_10]: I've been getting just non-stop.
[48:05.380 --> 48:07.120]  [SPEAKER_10]: I have to disable call waiting, and...
[48:07.120 --> 48:07.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: All right.
[48:07.380 --> 48:16.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: What you have to do, first of all, you have to call the radio station, and tell them what's going on, and tell them that it's, they have to solve this problem, because you're getting their calls.
[48:17.220 --> 48:21.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: That way, at least you'll get them working for you to solve the problem, because it's their problem too.
[48:22.320 --> 48:30.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: And tell them if they don't, you're just going to start telling people that they've just switched to easy listening format, and that their call means nothing to you, and you can do anything you want, really.
[48:32.220 --> 48:37.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: But basically, what you have to do is get them and the phone company to solve this right away, because that's an intolerable situation.
[48:38.180 --> 48:40.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: All right, but we have to move on.
[48:41.060 --> 48:41.220]  [SPEAKER_16]: Okay.
[48:41.380 --> 48:42.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: All right, thanks for calling.
[48:43.140 --> 48:44.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: Good evening, you're on the air.
[48:45.700 --> 48:46.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: Hello?
[48:46.420 --> 48:46.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: Hello?
[48:46.980 --> 48:49.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, so you don't have to speak up, you've got one of those bad lines.
[48:49.340 --> 48:49.680]  [SPEAKER_16]: Okay.
[48:50.800 --> 48:51.520]  [SPEAKER_16]: Number one...
[48:51.520 --> 48:55.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, I'm afraid there's only time for one thing for you, because we can barely hear you.
[48:55.600 --> 48:59.580]  [SPEAKER_09]: Oh, okay, I've got to give the boo of the week to NYNEX.
[48:59.960 --> 49:05.980]  [SPEAKER_09]: The switch that they put on for the caller services, like caller ID, and all that other stuff.
[49:06.140 --> 49:06.500]  [SPEAKER_16]: Uh-huh.
[49:06.720 --> 49:11.100]  [SPEAKER_09]: I have waiting and call conferencing on my line.
[49:11.640 --> 49:19.060]  [SPEAKER_09]: When I used to, under the old switch, when I used to have my three-way calling in use, my call waiting worked.
[49:19.280 --> 49:20.140]  [SPEAKER_09]: Now it doesn't.
[49:20.260 --> 49:22.240]  [SPEAKER_09]: Now people get a busy signal.
[49:22.700 --> 49:24.120]  [SPEAKER_09]: Doesn't that defeat the purpose?
[49:25.100 --> 49:32.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: I suppose it does, but we're having such trouble hearing that we're not going to be able to really address this right now, so we're going to try to go to another line.
[49:33.060 --> 49:33.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: Sorry about this.
[49:34.780 --> 49:37.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: this phone system is really the pits.
[49:37.260 --> 49:38.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: I have to say that right here.
[49:38.780 --> 49:39.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: Good evening.
[49:39.260 --> 49:39.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: You're on.
[49:40.040 --> 49:40.280]  [SPEAKER_17]: Yeah.
[49:40.600 --> 49:41.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's better.
[49:41.940 --> 49:44.820]  [SPEAKER_17]: I'm hearing this story about the FBI people.
[49:45.440 --> 49:52.160]  [SPEAKER_17]: I've thought in my past when I was doing some labor organizing, I had some encounters with spook types also.
[49:53.500 --> 50:02.040]  [SPEAKER_17]: And what I found from experience will scare them away real quick is I just started to take their picture.
[50:02.960 --> 50:03.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, yes.
[50:03.640 --> 50:04.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, yes.
[50:04.080 --> 50:05.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's something we've learned at the 2600 meetings.
[50:06.100 --> 50:06.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: They hate that.
[50:07.220 --> 50:21.320]  [SPEAKER_17]: And in particular, this is a case where we were in a strike and you could tell the real press people because they would sort of come right in and talk to you, but the spooks never come and talk to you directly.
[50:21.320 --> 50:23.180]  [SPEAKER_17]: They sort of like to stay at a distance.
[50:24.680 --> 50:36.300]  [SPEAKER_17]: And I remember in particular one time we found there was a guy who was clearly he had all the markings of a police officer because he had a flasher on his car and all.
[50:36.440 --> 50:41.560]  [SPEAKER_17]: And I just started trying to take his picture and he ran off quicker than you can believe.
[50:42.160 --> 50:46.580]  [SPEAKER_17]: And that just seems to get rid of them very quickly.
[50:47.100 --> 51:04.480]  [SPEAKER_17]: And the other thing I was to say is I know of some judges and others who have nicknamed FBI as standing for Federal Bureau of Incompetence or Federal Bureau of Intimidation because of what they do.
[51:04.820 --> 51:08.080]  [SPEAKER_17]: And this certainly is consistent with that.
[51:09.940 --> 51:24.000]  [SPEAKER_17]: I guess my reaction in these situations is before I show them anything I would ask for their ID because if they're doing what they're supposed to be doing they should be willing to tell you who they are.
[51:24.320 --> 51:32.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: I know in Robert's case there wasn't a need for that but in Lee and Joe's case were they forthcoming in showing ID?
[51:33.440 --> 51:34.720]  [SPEAKER_22]: I had to ask.
[51:35.400 --> 52:01.680]  [SPEAKER_22]: They weren't going to show me I don't know if they were going to or they didn't feel like it is that but I finally asked if they would I said you know can I see some ID and the woman like you know opened up her thing and showed it to me and it was upside down I don't know what FBI stuff looks like anyway but she half-heartedly pretty much showed me her ID and stuff like that so I don't know if
[52:01.680 --> 52:09.520]  [SPEAKER_22]: they were so happy about it but reluctantly she did show me hers and the guy didn't show me his That did surprise me.
[52:10.500 --> 52:24.280]  [SPEAKER_21]: Normally, I would expect in a professional encounter like that, particularly when you're coming on someone cold in their room, to have your badge out and show it, because that's the first establishment of professional credentials.
[52:24.980 --> 52:32.760]  [SPEAKER_21]: Initially, there was, through my mind, just for one second, I wondered if it was a joke, if I was being spoofed by hacker friends or whatever.
[52:32.760 --> 52:37.860]  [SPEAKER_21]: But they look like such young, clean-cut bureaucrats that I took them for real.
[52:38.480 --> 52:39.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: How about you, Lee?
[52:39.300 --> 52:40.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: Did they show you the ID right away?
[52:40.960 --> 52:47.680]  [SPEAKER_20]: That when they entered the room, I was not really in a state to figure out at the moment, but they did show.
[52:48.180 --> 52:49.780]  [SPEAKER_20]: How were you dressed when they entered the room?
[52:51.000 --> 52:51.980]  [SPEAKER_20]: Underwear, uh-huh.
[52:52.940 --> 52:54.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, you were asleep when they entered the room, right?
[52:55.120 --> 52:56.540]  [SPEAKER_20]: I'd been awake about two minutes.
[52:56.640 --> 53:00.140]  [SPEAKER_20]: One of my room shares had just gone into the bathroom, and they had woken me up.
[53:00.260 --> 53:01.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: Did they ask any questions of your roommates?
[53:02.900 --> 53:07.640]  [SPEAKER_20]: A couple, but they weren't making enough other noise that I didn't hear.
[53:08.160 --> 53:08.500]  [SPEAKER_22]: Manuel?
[53:09.060 --> 53:09.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yes.
[53:09.960 --> 53:10.700]  [SPEAKER_22]: I'll say this.
[53:10.700 --> 53:15.180]  [SPEAKER_22]: If I didn't ask, I don't think they were going to volunteer to show me anything.
[53:15.900 --> 53:21.560]  [SPEAKER_22]: Because the whole time, before I asked them, the whole situation took a couple of minutes, and they didn't volunteer.
[53:21.680 --> 53:23.760]  [SPEAKER_22]: They told me they were from the FBI, but that was it.
[53:23.940 --> 53:25.840]  [SPEAKER_22]: They weren't volunteering to show me anything.
[53:25.880 --> 53:29.280]  [SPEAKER_22]: And if I didn't ask, I don't think they would have even followed to show me anything.
[53:30.240 --> 53:31.620]  [SPEAKER_22]: If that makes a difference or not.
[53:32.280 --> 53:34.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: That is rather disturbing.
[53:34.500 --> 53:40.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I've heard things like that many times with regards to this, that IDs aren't shown, rights aren't read, things like that.
[53:40.740 --> 53:42.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: Lee, did they read you your rights?
[53:42.620 --> 53:46.860]  [SPEAKER_20]: Um, they showed them, actually, on a printed form.
[53:47.120 --> 53:48.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: They showed you your rights?
[53:48.440 --> 53:48.780]  [SPEAKER_20]: Yeah.
[53:49.280 --> 53:49.540]  [SPEAKER_20]: Really?
[53:49.680 --> 53:51.960]  [SPEAKER_21]: Did you sign an acknowledgement that you understood them?
[53:52.240 --> 53:55.480]  [SPEAKER_21]: Um, at the end of the 90 minutes.
[53:56.420 --> 53:56.900]  [SPEAKER_21]: Interesting.
[53:57.260 --> 54:00.020]  [SPEAKER_17]: What would have they done if you hadn't signed that?
[54:02.460 --> 54:03.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's a good question.
[54:04.020 --> 54:06.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I'm not sure anybody really knows the answer.
[54:06.400 --> 54:10.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: What we need are more legal experts to help us out here.
[54:10.620 --> 54:11.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: For instance...
[54:11.180 --> 54:12.700]  [SPEAKER_21]: Your rights before you were questioned.
[54:13.200 --> 54:21.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: For instance, though, when somebody knocks on a hotel room, do they have to have a warrant for that specific hotel room, or can they simply go into any room in the hotel?
[54:22.640 --> 54:23.540]  [SPEAKER_21]: I have no idea.
[54:23.680 --> 54:24.360]  [SPEAKER_21]: Ask Mike Goodwin.
[54:24.540 --> 54:26.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, well, nobody seems to really know the answer to that.
[54:26.820 --> 54:31.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: But, yeah, we do intend to find out, because this is an entirely new situation for us.
[54:31.000 --> 54:33.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: This is something that has never really happened before.
[54:33.820 --> 54:45.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: And it's kind of the whole community, not just the hacker community, but computer professionals, lawyers, media, we're all kind of in shock by this, because it was just so strange, you know, to have the FBI searching people in a conference.
[54:45.880 --> 54:56.400]  [SPEAKER_17]: I'm not an expert, but I would think that they would need a warrant, because you should have a reasonable expectation of privacy when you're in your hotel room, especially at four in the morning.
[54:56.520 --> 54:57.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, you would expect that.
[54:57.560 --> 54:58.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: That is true.
[54:58.580 --> 54:59.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: Thanks for the call.
[54:59.420 --> 55:00.160]  [SPEAKER_17]: Hey, thank you.
[55:00.280 --> 55:00.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: All right.
[55:01.080 --> 55:03.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: See if we can squeeze in another call here.
[55:03.340 --> 55:04.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: Good evening, you're on.
[55:04.680 --> 55:06.300]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, listen, I'm not...
[55:07.200 --> 55:09.580]  [SPEAKER_11]: Oh, and you get a phone call, and it's a lousy connection?
[55:09.860 --> 55:10.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[55:11.060 --> 55:14.240]  [SPEAKER_11]: Anytime someone picks up another extension, there's a voice drop.
[55:14.480 --> 55:15.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, I realize that.
[55:15.280 --> 55:16.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's not the problem here.
[55:16.540 --> 55:17.080]  [SPEAKER_11]: Oh, well, I...
[55:17.080 --> 55:18.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: There's something loose in our board, I think.
[55:18.720 --> 55:21.000]  [SPEAKER_11]: Oh, no, I just thought I'd mention that, that's all.
[55:21.220 --> 55:21.420]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah.
[55:21.420 --> 55:22.700]  [SPEAKER_11]: I was only trying to be helpful.
[55:22.920 --> 55:28.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, well, you were, but in this particular case, it's something of a more phenomenal nature, I think.
[55:29.380 --> 55:30.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: Did you have a question?
[55:30.520 --> 55:31.280]  [SPEAKER_11]: No, no, I just...
[55:31.280 --> 55:36.400]  [SPEAKER_11]: That's all I wanted to tell you, because you had a few people you were trying to get in contact with on the show.
[55:36.460 --> 55:36.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: Right.
[55:36.860 --> 55:37.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, well, thanks very much.
[55:37.880 --> 55:41.180]  [SPEAKER_11]: And the audio was coming in bad, you know?
[55:41.180 --> 55:41.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, I know.
[55:41.680 --> 55:42.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's because we're using some bad lines.
[55:43.020 --> 55:44.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: In fact, half of our lines are bad right now.
[55:45.200 --> 55:46.920]  [SPEAKER_11]: There'll be a lot of people tapping in on you.
[55:47.040 --> 55:49.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, I don't know what it is exactly, but thanks for the help.
[55:49.900 --> 55:56.220]  [SPEAKER_11]: You know, I tried that once with a friend of mine, and I had the kids pick up the extensions in different parts of the house.
[55:56.320 --> 55:56.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: Right.
[55:56.800 --> 55:57.760]  [SPEAKER_11]: And the voice got weaker.
[55:57.880 --> 56:01.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, yeah, every time you pick up an extension, there's a slight voltage drop, so, yeah, that would account for that.
[56:01.840 --> 56:04.640]  [SPEAKER_11]: A gang in on your one conversation.
[56:04.900 --> 56:05.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh-huh.
[56:05.480 --> 56:07.420]  [SPEAKER_11]: And that would kill a long-distance shot on you.
[56:07.660 --> 56:08.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, that's true.
[56:08.520 --> 56:09.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's true.
[56:09.160 --> 56:09.980]  [SPEAKER_11]: Just trying to be helpful.
[56:10.060 --> 56:11.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, well, thanks for calling.
[56:12.000 --> 56:14.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: And in this particular case, we can't blame the FBI.
[56:14.980 --> 56:18.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: We have to blame ourselves here at WBAI, because this phone system is terrible.
[56:18.960 --> 56:25.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: And we're going to have to tear it apart and rebuild it, and if anybody out there wants to help, please show up at the front door with a machete or something.
[56:26.000 --> 56:26.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: Good evening.
[56:26.480 --> 56:26.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: You're on.
[56:27.360 --> 56:27.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: Hello?
[56:27.820 --> 56:28.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yes, go ahead.
[56:28.980 --> 56:29.400]  [SPEAKER_18]: Is that there?
[56:29.700 --> 56:30.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yes, you are.
[56:31.700 --> 56:32.060]  [SPEAKER_18]: Um.
[56:33.300 --> 56:34.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, please say something.
[56:35.420 --> 56:35.660]  [SPEAKER_18]: Hello?
[56:36.080 --> 56:36.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: All right, that's fine.
[56:36.980 --> 56:37.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: They're very clever, too.
[56:37.640 --> 56:37.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: Good evening.
[56:40.200 --> 56:40.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yes.
[56:41.480 --> 56:41.840]  [SPEAKER_18]: Hi.
[56:42.060 --> 56:42.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: Go ahead.
[56:42.800 --> 56:43.860]  [SPEAKER_18]: Yeah, can you hear me?
[56:44.040 --> 56:45.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yes, I hear you fine.
[56:45.120 --> 56:45.400]  [SPEAKER_18]: Okay, good.
[56:45.400 --> 56:59.000]  [SPEAKER_18]: But, you know, you covered pretty extensively the incompetence in the design aspect of the people who are supposedly in charge of, you know, monitoring for the law of computers and how far behind the times they are.
[56:59.000 --> 57:12.840]  [SPEAKER_18]: I think that there's a whole new group of managerial, what I call soft-target cops that are going to be recruited to this, you know, since the Soviet thing is low-key now, there's going to be a whole new raison d'etre.
[57:14.060 --> 57:19.960]  [SPEAKER_18]: And incompetence, I think, is just going to spread where people are put out there on a limb, not really knowing what the heck they're doing.
[57:19.960 --> 57:28.240]  [SPEAKER_18]: Because there's a whole procedure involved in surveillance that these people that you're describing have absolutely no knowledge of what they're supposed to be doing on their job.
[57:28.460 --> 57:36.440]  [SPEAKER_18]: Now, there must be thousands of people like this out there now doing this, and I think it's outrageous that, you know, the FDA is doing the same kind of thing.
[57:36.620 --> 57:43.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: And if you hand them tools like the clipper chip and digital telephony, who knows what kind of abuses of rights we'll see in the future.
[57:43.420 --> 57:50.020]  [SPEAKER_18]: And thrown out in court, which is the, you know, after you have to spend thousands of your own hard-earned money, they lose the case in the end anyway.
[57:50.500 --> 57:51.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's true.
[57:51.380 --> 57:55.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: And as in the case of Craig Neidorf, though, you'll lose lots of money even if you are proven innocent.
[57:56.040 --> 57:58.780]  [SPEAKER_18]: Oh, by the way, it's a fiber optic key.
[57:58.820 --> 58:01.060]  [SPEAKER_18]: He's getting out earlier than he thought he would, right?
[58:03.120 --> 58:07.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: Actually, he's getting out, I believe, November 22nd is the date.
[58:07.760 --> 58:10.160]  [SPEAKER_18]: Oh, I just heard you say something about April or something.
[58:10.480 --> 58:11.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: No, no.
[58:11.440 --> 58:11.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: I misunderstood.
[58:13.180 --> 58:14.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's a hacker named Paul.
[58:15.180 --> 58:15.920]  [SPEAKER_18]: Okay, different guy.
[58:16.040 --> 58:16.180]  [SPEAKER_18]: Okay.
[58:16.640 --> 58:18.220]  [SPEAKER_18]: I'm going to hang up and let you get someone else.
[58:18.420 --> 58:18.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[58:18.900 --> 58:23.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: Actually, we're not going to have time for anybody else because we are out of time.
[58:23.240 --> 58:30.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: But I'd like to give our guests a couple of seconds to give a kind of summation they feel like giving.
[58:31.000 --> 58:32.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: Anybody care to say anything?
[58:32.480 --> 58:34.640]  [SPEAKER_21]: I didn't join this to bash the FBI.
[58:34.900 --> 58:37.720]  [SPEAKER_21]: I mean, they were young, clean-cut kids, and they were doing their job.
[58:37.880 --> 58:42.420]  [SPEAKER_21]: And my feeling is we have a responsibility to help them understand that hacking isn't illegal.
[58:43.320 --> 58:43.680]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[58:44.220 --> 58:44.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: Joe?
[58:45.920 --> 58:47.920]  [SPEAKER_22]: I pretty much agree with what he has to say.
[58:48.160 --> 58:51.320]  [SPEAKER_22]: I don't think... I mean, the FBI was probably doing their job.
[58:53.300 --> 59:00.340]  [SPEAKER_22]: I think mistaking me was a little, you know, out there, you know, with the whole height and this and that.
[59:01.180 --> 59:02.240]  [SPEAKER_22]: But I don't know.
[59:02.360 --> 59:05.140]  [SPEAKER_22]: I mean, you know, they're trying to do their job and this and that.
[59:05.280 --> 59:08.000]  [SPEAKER_22]: And it was... I think the whole situation was just a little weird.
[59:08.460 --> 59:08.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: Mm-hmm.
[59:08.800 --> 59:09.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: Especially the location.
[59:10.400 --> 59:10.680]  [SPEAKER_22]: Yeah.
[59:10.680 --> 59:11.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: And the event.
[59:12.120 --> 59:13.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: Lee, any final remarks from you?
[59:14.300 --> 59:14.460]  [SPEAKER_20]: No.
[59:14.880 --> 59:16.140]  [SPEAKER_20]: Pretty straight forward.
[59:16.620 --> 59:17.480]  [SPEAKER_20]: I agree for the most part.
[59:18.180 --> 59:18.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh-huh.
[59:19.280 --> 59:22.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: And everybody was coming up to you at the conference and calling you Kevin from then on.
[59:22.220 --> 59:22.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: Wasn't that true?
[59:24.260 --> 59:27.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, it's how reputations are built, I guess.
[59:27.900 --> 59:31.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: So computers, freedom, and privacy is history for this year.
[59:31.240 --> 59:33.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I think it's probably one of the more interesting ones.
[59:34.520 --> 59:36.160]  [SPEAKER_06]: We don't know what's going to happen in the future.
[59:36.160 --> 59:39.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: And we don't know if Kevin Mitnick or Agent Steele will ever be caught.
[59:39.760 --> 59:41.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: But we'll keep you updated from here.
[59:42.160 --> 59:44.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: I want to thank all of you for joining us tonight.
[59:44.680 --> 59:46.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: And wish you luck in the future.
[59:47.380 --> 59:47.860]  [SPEAKER_16]: Good night.
[59:48.020 --> 59:48.680]  [SPEAKER_16]: We'll see you soon.
[59:49.080 --> 59:49.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
[59:49.920 --> 59:54.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: And as a conclusion tonight, we said we were going to give out the fiber optics address one more time.
[59:54.640 --> 59:58.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: Remember, can't send books, can't send magazines, because he'll get in trouble now.
[59:59.140 --> 01:00:00.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: So send him a letter.
[01:00:01.320 --> 01:00:05.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: I can't really think of anything else you can send him, because that's pretty much all they're letting us do now.
[01:00:07.920 --> 01:00:13.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's also, it would be nice if everybody visited him, except he's limited to 10 visitors in total.
[01:00:13.380 --> 01:00:15.060]  [SPEAKER_06]: So it's real hell.
[01:00:15.420 --> 01:00:16.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: Prison is hell.
[01:00:16.500 --> 01:00:17.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's something you've got to remember.
[01:00:18.260 --> 01:00:20.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: And even a minimum security prison is hell.
[01:00:21.180 --> 01:00:22.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, I go there.
[01:00:22.800 --> 01:00:24.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: I've been there three times now.
[01:00:24.920 --> 01:00:29.080]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, you know, it's, it's, it's, I don't like it.
[01:00:29.160 --> 01:00:30.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: I don't like being there.
[01:00:30.160 --> 01:00:32.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: It feels bad being there, even if I'm just visiting.
[01:00:33.400 --> 01:00:35.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: Anyway, his address is Mark Abene.
[01:00:36.020 --> 01:00:37.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's A-B-E-N-E.
[01:00:37.940 --> 01:00:42.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: And his number is 3-2-1-0-9-0-5-4.
[01:00:42.540 --> 01:00:48.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: And that's F-P-C, as in Federal Prison Camp, School Kill, S-C-H-U-Y-L-K-I-L-L.
[01:00:48.940 --> 01:00:50.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: Unit 1, P.O.
[01:00:50.980 --> 01:00:58.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: Box 670, Minersville, Pennsylvania, zip code 17954-0670.
[01:00:58.940 --> 01:01:01.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: Remember, all incoming mail is red.
[01:01:03.240 --> 01:01:04.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: Maybe that's something we should all get used to.
[01:01:06.400 --> 01:01:07.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: This has been Off the Hook.
[01:01:07.560 --> 01:01:09.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: We'll be back again next week.
[01:01:09.480 --> 01:01:10.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: Who knows what we'll be talking about then.
[01:01:10.860 --> 01:01:15.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: I have a feeling there's going to be a scandal in the air, and it'll involve some phone companies.
[01:01:15.640 --> 01:01:16.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: We'll be there for you.
[01:01:17.220 --> 01:01:19.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: Stay tuned for the WBAI Evening News.
[01:01:19.400 --> 01:01:20.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: This is Emmanuel Goldstein.
[01:01:20.520 --> 01:01:21.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: Have a good night.
[01:02:16.150 --> 01:02:17.210]  [SPEAKER_05]: Good evening.
[01:02:17.650 --> 01:02:24.010]  [SPEAKER_05]: In the news tonight, the case of an upstate school district exclusively for Hasidic jews goes before the U.S. Supreme Court.
[01:02:25.070 --> 01:02:30.790]  [SPEAKER_05]: A Black-owned Ohio newspaper is firebombed, and the publisher suspects the nation of Islam.
[01:02:31.070 --> 01:02:38.310]  [SPEAKER_05]: And in New York, Latinos call on the Giuliani administration to investigate the unresolved murder of Manuel Mayi.
[01:02:38.730 --> 01:02:47.170]  [SPEAKER_05]: With these and other stories, I'm Jose Santiago in New York with Verna Avery Brown in Washington, and this is the news for Wednesday, March 30, 1994.
[01:02:47.830 --> 01:02:50.810]  [SPEAKER_05]: First to Washington for the Pacifica National News.
[01:02:52.270 --> 01:02:59.670]  [SPEAKER_30]: Mexico's ruling party has chosen a new presidential candidate to replace Luis Dinaldo Colosio, who was assassinated last week.
[01:03:00.130 --> 01:03:03.370]  [SPEAKER_30]: Ernesto Zedillo is considered the businessman's choice for president.
[01:03:03.670 --> 01:03:05.910]  [SPEAKER_30]: From Mexico City, Sandina Robbins reports.
[01:03:06.510 --> 01:03:15.090]  [SPEAKER_26]: Former Education Secretary Ernesto Zedillo received poor grades for his job in charge of Mexico's public school system, according to many parents and teachers.
[01:03:15.350 --> 01:03:24.830]  [SPEAKER_26]: It's widely accepted that Zedillo was chosen by the ruling Institutional Revolutionary Party, or PRI, based on his appeal to foreign investors and Mexico's private sector.
[01:03:25.030 --> 01:03:32.590]  [SPEAKER_26]: The Yale educated economist is well-received in financial circles as a close collaborator of President Carlos Salinas de Gortari.
[01:03:33.090 --> 01:03:38.250]  [SPEAKER_26]: Zedillo took over Salinas' job as Secretary of Budget and Planning when Salinas ran for president.
[01:03:38.570 --> 01:03:42.570]  [SPEAKER_26]: Zedillo is one of the chief architects of the administration's privatization plan.
[01:03:42.830 --> 01:03:45.210]  [SPEAKER_26]: His doctoral thesis focused on the oil industry.
[01:03:45.790 --> 01:03:54.490]  [SPEAKER_26]: Opposition party of the Democratic Revolution candidate, Cuauhtémoc Cardenas, called Zedillo the continuation of President Salinas' pro-business strategies.
[01:03:54.830 --> 01:03:58.710]  [SPEAKER_26]: For Pacifica Network News, this is Sandina Robbins in Mexico City.
[01:03:59.150 --> 01:04:03.290]  [SPEAKER_30]: Fighting today in two Muslim towns in Bosnia is reportedly heavy.
[01:04:03.730 --> 01:04:08.230]  [SPEAKER_30]: Battles raged around the southeast town of Gorazda and the northwest town of Biak.
[01:04:08.430 --> 01:04:13.330]  [SPEAKER_30]: According to the government-run Bosnian radio, Serbs attacked Gorazda around midnight.
[01:04:13.650 --> 01:04:17.570]  [SPEAKER_30]: The attack appears to be a response to an offensive by the Muslim-led government.
[01:04:17.830 --> 01:04:21.770]  [SPEAKER_30]: The government claims to have gained ground against the Serbs in a weakened push.
[01:04:22.030 --> 01:04:27.450]  [SPEAKER_30]: Today's fighting between Serbs and Muslims has not hampered efforts between Bosnian Muslims and Croats.
[01:04:27.590 --> 01:04:33.750]  [SPEAKER_30]: Meeting in Sarajevo as the battles raged on, they have approved a constitution for the new Muslim-Croat Federation.
[01:04:34.110 --> 01:04:41.030]  [SPEAKER_30]: South Africa's multi-party transitional council is preparing to give security forces special powers in the KwaZulu homeland.
[01:04:41.370 --> 01:04:47.590]  [SPEAKER_30]: KwaZulu is the stronghold of the Nkata Freedom Party, which is opposing the country's first democratic elections next month.
[01:04:47.710 --> 01:04:49.630]  [SPEAKER_30]: James Lorimer reports from Johannesburg.
[01:04:49.910 --> 01:04:55.350]  [SPEAKER_02]: Although Nkata leader Mangusutu Butolezi has declared he will allow the elections to go ahead, violence continues.
[01:04:55.730 --> 01:05:01.370]  [SPEAKER_02]: Most of the fighting is between Nkata members who oppose the voting and African National Congress members who are campaigning.
[01:05:01.790 --> 01:05:04.630]  [SPEAKER_02]: Supporters of both sides are using violence to promote their views.
[01:05:04.870 --> 01:05:09.450]  [SPEAKER_02]: Police say 74 people have been killed in KwaZulu and the adjoining Natal province since Friday.
[01:05:09.850 --> 01:05:14.590]  [SPEAKER_02]: Overnight, five ANC members were lured to a meeting with Nkata supporters and then executed.
[01:05:15.070 --> 01:05:20.150]  [SPEAKER_02]: Survivors say that was in revenge for the shooting of Nkata members by the ANC in Johannesburg on Monday.
[01:05:20.490 --> 01:05:24.130]  [SPEAKER_02]: The ANC says the South African government should send in the army to take control.
[01:05:24.510 --> 01:05:30.270]  [SPEAKER_02]: The multi-party transitional council met today with the government to draw up regulations for a state of emergency in the region.
[01:05:30.670 --> 01:05:34.770]  [SPEAKER_02]: The ANC says wide police powers are necessary for a free and fair election.
[01:05:35.210 --> 01:05:39.870]  [SPEAKER_02]: Butolezi says if troops move into his stronghold they risk confrontation with his supporters.
[01:05:40.490 --> 01:05:43.490]  [SPEAKER_02]: For Pacifica Network News, I'm James Lorimer in Johannesburg.
[01:05:43.690 --> 01:05:53.030]  [SPEAKER_30]: China says it will go along with the UN resolution that imposes minimum requirements on North Korea to open its suspect nuclear sites to international inspections.
[01:05:53.110 --> 01:06:01.890]  [SPEAKER_30]: As a permanent member of the Security Council with veto power to kill any resolution imposing economic sanctions against North Korea, China's support is vital.
[01:06:02.110 --> 01:06:08.950]  [SPEAKER_30]: The South Korean foreign minister said today the Chinese are on board in the sense of discussing the form and contents of a resolution.
[01:06:09.210 --> 01:06:17.930]  [SPEAKER_30]: And he says although that means there will only be minimum requirements in the resolution, it's unlikely the Chinese will veto the kind of resolution they're currently working on.
[01:06:18.370 --> 01:06:23.010]  [SPEAKER_30]: Kentucky's Democratic lawmaker Representative William Natcher has died at age 84.
[01:06:23.450 --> 01:06:30.390]  [SPEAKER_30]: Natcher had earned a place in the Guinness Book of Records for his unbroken string of 18,401 votes in the U.S.
[01:06:30.550 --> 01:06:30.750]  [SPEAKER_30]: Congress.
[01:06:31.150 --> 01:06:36.810]  [SPEAKER_30]: Natcher was chairman of the powerful House Appropriations Committee, which controls most of the nation's discretionary spending.
[01:06:37.090 --> 01:06:39.170]  [SPEAKER_30]: And those are the stories topping the news.
[01:06:50.760 --> 01:06:55.600]  [SPEAKER_30]: The battle over the separation of church and state took center stage today before the U.S.
[01:06:55.900 --> 01:06:56.300]  [SPEAKER_30]: Supreme Court.
[01:06:56.500 --> 01:07:02.800]  [SPEAKER_30]: At issue was a New York public school district specifically designed for the disabled children of a Hasidic jewish group.
[01:07:03.160 --> 01:07:08.220]  [SPEAKER_30]: Lawyers for the state and local school boards say it's just a way to accommodate cultural differences.
[01:07:08.500 --> 01:07:14.860]  [SPEAKER_30]: But an attorney for taxpayers who sued the district says the district crosses the line separating church and state.
[01:07:15.300 --> 01:07:17.240]  [SPEAKER_30]: Pacificistan Rush has more on the story.
[01:07:17.520 --> 01:07:20.560]  [SPEAKER_08]: The case began one night during the Christmas holidays.
[01:07:20.980 --> 01:07:27.720]  [SPEAKER_08]: Malka Silberstein went to a school play where her young retarded daughter was dressed up as Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer.
[01:07:28.220 --> 01:07:33.940]  [SPEAKER_08]: Silberstein is a member of the jewish Satmar Hasidic community, a small but religiously insular group.
[01:07:34.100 --> 01:07:41.120]  [SPEAKER_08]: And she was so outraged that she joined other parents who felt the environment of the public school was detrimental to their children.
[01:07:41.360 --> 01:07:46.760]  [SPEAKER_23]: She was forced, I mean, to participate in Christmas celebrations.
[01:07:46.980 --> 01:07:48.900]  [SPEAKER_23]: I don't think that's secular at all.
[01:07:49.340 --> 01:07:54.860]  [SPEAKER_23]: She was taken out to restaurants, but she couldn't partake.
[01:07:55.120 --> 01:08:00.080]  [SPEAKER_23]: She couldn't reach her potential because she was in an alien setting.
[01:08:00.320 --> 01:08:08.320]  [SPEAKER_08]: So in 1989, they got the New York State Legislature to create a special district for the disabled children of Kiryasjul Village.
[01:08:08.540 --> 01:08:14.000]  [SPEAKER_08]: But two taxpayers sued the district claiming it crossed the line separating church and state.
[01:08:14.220 --> 01:08:22.640]  [SPEAKER_08]: And last year, New York's highest court ruled that the creation of the district produced an unconstitutional symbolic union between the sect and the state.
[01:08:23.060 --> 01:08:30.160]  [SPEAKER_08]: Today, Nathan Lewin, attorney for the school board, said that the district was not based on religion, but on cultural differences.
[01:08:30.480 --> 01:08:53.680]  [SPEAKER_04]: As I told the Supreme Court, it is the creation of a district recognizing that there are problems or that there are difficulties that the residents of the village have as a result of their lifestyle and as a result of the fact that their children can't attend the public schools because of that lifestyle and because they want to preserve those traditions for generations to come.
[01:08:54.060 --> 01:08:58.440]  [SPEAKER_04]: That doesn't make it creation of a school district for religious purposes.
[01:08:58.700 --> 01:09:04.460]  [SPEAKER_08]: But the lawyer for taxpayers suing the state told the court this was a distinction without a difference.
[01:09:04.620 --> 01:09:06.060]  [SPEAKER_07]: Attorney Jay Warona.
[01:09:06.320 --> 01:09:10.080]  [SPEAKER_07]: With this particular community, there is no distinction between culture and religion.
[01:09:10.220 --> 01:09:17.680]  [SPEAKER_07]: Religion is... the culture is driven by religion, and it would be ignoring the entire context in which this legislation was passed.
[01:09:17.800 --> 01:09:25.160]  [SPEAKER_08]: But Justice Antonin Scalia said he was not sure that the state was fostering religious beliefs because it did not allow worship in the schools.
[01:09:25.620 --> 01:09:29.420]  [SPEAKER_08]: And indeed, 10 to 20 percent of the students are not members of the Satmar sect.
[01:09:29.640 --> 01:09:34.100]  [SPEAKER_08]: But not everyone in the Satmar community is happy with the new district.
[01:09:34.320 --> 01:09:38.760]  [SPEAKER_28]: This school district is totally run by the religious theocracy.
[01:09:39.080 --> 01:09:44.640]  [SPEAKER_08]: Joseph Waldman claimed that the top leadership of the sect drew up a list of candidates for the school board.
[01:09:44.780 --> 01:09:45.660]  [SPEAKER_08]: And they all won.
[01:09:46.280 --> 01:09:47.600]  [SPEAKER_08]: Waldman ran and lost.
[01:09:47.820 --> 01:09:53.960]  [SPEAKER_28]: I ran without the blessing of the Grand Rabbi, which he ordered me specifically not to run for office.
[01:09:54.140 --> 01:09:55.880]  [SPEAKER_28]: He warned me with death threats.
[01:09:56.080 --> 01:09:57.160]  [SPEAKER_28]: My tire was slashed.
[01:09:57.240 --> 01:09:58.160]  [SPEAKER_28]: My wind was broken.
[01:09:58.680 --> 01:09:59.620]  [SPEAKER_28]: I ran for office.
[01:09:59.760 --> 01:10:01.760]  [SPEAKER_28]: I received 673 votes.
[01:10:01.760 --> 01:10:05.720]  [SPEAKER_08]: But school district officials say there was no rigging of the elections.
[01:10:05.980 --> 01:10:08.260]  [SPEAKER_08]: Abraham Weider, president of the school district.
[01:10:08.460 --> 01:10:13.920]  [SPEAKER_01]: The election was supervised by the state education department, by the superintendent of BOCES.
[01:10:14.140 --> 01:10:28.560]  [SPEAKER_01]: They found it to be in total in compliance, as well as the whole school district is in compliance in total with the laws, procedures, regulations, and policies from state education department, from the federal, and we're not violating one iota.
[01:10:28.680 --> 01:10:33.020]  [SPEAKER_08]: The implications of the case, however, go far beyond the immediate situation in New York.
[01:10:33.220 --> 01:10:39.260]  [SPEAKER_08]: Justice Sandra Day O'Connor was concerned that this set up a dangerous precedent by favoring a particular group.
[01:10:39.780 --> 01:10:47.620]  [SPEAKER_08]: And David Saperstein, with the Religious Action Center of Reform Judaism, predicted that such districts would lead to a splintering of American society.
[01:10:47.800 --> 01:10:59.880]  [SPEAKER_27]: If this school district is allowed to prevail, then every group, religious group that is a minority in any particular school district, Catholic, Methodist, Hindu, or anything else, can demand their own school district.
[01:11:00.020 --> 01:11:03.220]  [SPEAKER_27]: That is the end of the public school system as we know it in America.
[01:11:03.220 --> 01:11:10.380]  [SPEAKER_27]: It is the balkanization of American life, and it would be disastrous for freedom of religion and for the quality of life in America.
[01:11:10.560 --> 01:11:13.260]  [SPEAKER_08]: Don Rush, Pacific Network News, Washington.
[01:11:13.560 --> 01:11:20.240]  [SPEAKER_30]: The Clinton administration today announced its pleasure with the Guatemalan Human Rights Accords signed yesterday in Mexico City.
[01:11:20.460 --> 01:11:29.040]  [SPEAKER_30]: After five days of talks, the Guatemalan government and leftist rebels signed an agreement allowing the United Nations to establish a human rights mission.
[01:11:29.260 --> 01:11:36.760]  [SPEAKER_30]: The facility will have the authority to visit any part of the Central American country at any time to monitor the human rights situation.
[01:11:37.060 --> 01:11:39.020]  [SPEAKER_30]: State Department spokesperson Mike McCurry.
[01:11:39.260 --> 01:11:44.440]  [SPEAKER_03]: The two parties have committed themselves to reaching a comprehensive peace accord by the end of this year.
[01:11:44.600 --> 01:11:48.340]  [SPEAKER_03]: We are encouraged by the political will and flexibility that both sides demonstrated.
[01:11:48.540 --> 01:11:51.080]  [SPEAKER_03]: Difficult issues certainly remain to be negotiated.
[01:11:51.560 --> 01:11:59.520]  [SPEAKER_03]: We will look forward to working closely with the UN moderator, Jean Arnault, and the group of friends to help the parties achieve a definitive settlement.
[01:11:59.720 --> 01:12:12.020]  [SPEAKER_30]: The two sides in the negotiations were able to come to agreement after the rebels postponed their demand for a commission to investigate past human rights abuses, a large proportion of which were committed by the government or its agents.
[01:12:12.300 --> 01:12:17.980]  [SPEAKER_30]: Frank LaRue with the Center for Human Rights Legal Action calls yesterday's signing an historical step forward.
[01:12:18.260 --> 01:12:25.480]  [SPEAKER_19]: As you well know, the negotiations in Guatemala, these negotiations were stalled for the last three years, specifically on the issue of human rights.
[01:12:26.160 --> 01:12:32.520]  [SPEAKER_19]: Obviously, human rights is the most important topic because the military of Guatemala have systematically violated the human rights of the people there.
[01:12:32.900 --> 01:12:35.800]  [SPEAKER_19]: So they found it very difficult to come to terms with that.
[01:12:36.240 --> 01:12:38.640]  [SPEAKER_30]: Guatemala has laws protecting human rights.
[01:12:38.640 --> 01:12:42.000]  [SPEAKER_30]: They just aren't obeyed and violators are not brought to justice.
[01:12:42.180 --> 01:12:49.340]  [SPEAKER_30]: So the principal benefit of this new agreement, says LaRue, is that the world will now be watching to make certain Guatemala's laws are followed.
[01:12:49.560 --> 01:12:53.900]  [SPEAKER_30]: It's been reported that another element of this agreement is that the rebels will have to disarm.
[01:12:54.060 --> 01:12:55.960]  [SPEAKER_30]: But LaRue says this is not true.
[01:12:56.400 --> 01:13:00.500]  [SPEAKER_19]: The rebels will disarm at the end of the negotiation.
[01:13:00.660 --> 01:13:03.500]  [SPEAKER_19]: You see, what was negotiated on Monday was only the human rights agreement.
[01:13:04.300 --> 01:13:06.660]  [SPEAKER_19]: And this is not the final peace agreement.
[01:13:06.880 --> 01:13:19.440]  [SPEAKER_19]: So this particular agreement on human rights only forces both parties, the government and the guerrillas, to recognize human rights, to allow the UN to verify the international standards.
[01:13:19.580 --> 01:13:22.740]  [SPEAKER_19]: But it does not call upon the rebels to disarm as of yet.
[01:13:23.100 --> 01:13:25.100]  [SPEAKER_19]: That will come later in the negotiation.
[01:13:25.360 --> 01:13:35.180]  [SPEAKER_30]: LaRue adds this agreement could very well be the first step towards ending the 33-year civil war that has seen the deaths and disappearances of 140,000 people.
[01:14:07.680 --> 01:14:13.240]  [SPEAKER_30]: Someone lobbed a fire bomb through the window of a small black Cincinnati newspaper around 3 a.m.
[01:14:13.400 --> 01:14:16.580]  [SPEAKER_30]: Tuesday, and investigators now think they know who did it.
[01:14:17.060 --> 01:14:22.080]  [SPEAKER_30]: Authorities have produced a pair of fingerprints from the bombing device and say an arrest is imminent.
[01:14:22.480 --> 01:14:27.200]  [SPEAKER_30]: No one was injured, but damages to the publication's office is estimated at $12,000.
[01:14:27.200 --> 01:14:30.980]  [SPEAKER_30]: And the paper's weekly edition will hit the streets tomorrow, as usual.
[01:14:31.400 --> 01:14:34.760]  [SPEAKER_30]: The Cincinnati Herald has a circulation of about 25,000.
[01:14:34.940 --> 01:14:41.940]  [SPEAKER_30]: It's housed in a building with other tenants, but William Spillers, the publisher, is convinced the newspaper was the target of the attack.
[01:14:42.600 --> 01:14:43.260]  [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah.
[01:14:43.500 --> 01:14:43.760]  [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah.
[01:14:43.860 --> 01:14:44.940]  [SPEAKER_00]: Without question.
[01:14:46.040 --> 01:14:53.180]  [SPEAKER_00]: We had had some phone threats that day about an article that was in our paper.
[01:14:53.840 --> 01:14:56.860]  [SPEAKER_00]: The title of the article was Blacks and Islam.
[01:14:57.600 --> 01:15:10.740]  [SPEAKER_00]: And we had a couple of phone calls warning us that someone was going to retaliate for the fact that we had run the article.
[01:15:12.840 --> 01:15:19.840]  [SPEAKER_00]: However, as you know, in this business, generally, you don't take threats that that seriously.
[01:15:20.420 --> 01:15:22.440]  [SPEAKER_30]: What was the tone of the article?
[01:15:23.000 --> 01:15:26.200]  [SPEAKER_00]: The tone of the article was really a historical piece.
[01:15:27.880 --> 01:15:36.940]  [SPEAKER_00]: And I understand that it was an opinion that someone sent us, and it was on our commentary page.
[01:15:37.340 --> 01:16:01.180]  [SPEAKER_00]: The tone of the article, however, was a historical kind of rendering on going back to the, you know, early 1600s, 1700s in Africa, and how the Islamic religion came to be, and then the whole thing around Islam and the African people.
[01:16:02.040 --> 01:16:04.840]  [SPEAKER_29]: Would you say that it cast Islam in a favorable light?
[01:16:05.650 --> 01:16:08.000]  [SPEAKER_00]: It didn't cast it in any kind of light, really.
[01:16:08.600 --> 01:16:17.780]  [SPEAKER_00]: There were some comments that could have maybe been taken as unfavorable, but at the same time, there were favorable comments.
[01:16:18.580 --> 01:16:23.260]  [SPEAKER_29]: What were the negative things said in the article?
[01:16:23.260 --> 01:16:23.300]  [SPEAKER_29]: What were the negative things said in the article?
[01:16:23.960 --> 01:16:28.680]  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, it kind of alluded to the fact that...