Off The Hook - 1994-07-06

[00:03.350 --> 00:05.350]  [SPEAKER_24]: And call...
[00:09.110 --> 00:10.310]  [SPEAKER_24]: Hello, stranger...
[00:10.310 --> 00:17.570]  [SPEAKER_30]: Hi, this is Chet Jackson, and I want you to join me for Night Flight on Sunday mornings at 3 a.m.
[00:17.850 --> 00:21.130]  [SPEAKER_30]: right after Labrish on WBAI-FM.
[00:21.430 --> 00:27.030]  [SPEAKER_30]: We will still play all the R&B classics along with the best in new contemporary music.
[00:27.030 --> 00:33.670]  [SPEAKER_30]: There will be interviews and special features from the people who influence and produce the music as well.
[00:33.850 --> 00:37.290]  [SPEAKER_30]: So join me on Sundays at 3 a.m.
[00:37.730 --> 00:43.850]  [SPEAKER_30]: for the Night Flight on 99.5 FM WBAI, New York City.
[00:55.140 --> 00:56.380]  [SPEAKER_28]: It's 10 o'clock.
[00:56.540 --> 00:58.080]  [SPEAKER_28]: This is WBAI.
[00:58.080 --> 01:01.400]  [SPEAKER_28]: After Message, Off the Hook.
[01:33.720 --> 01:43.820]  [SPEAKER_01]: There's an army of them out there, broken finely, toiling in the darkness, waiting for what?
[01:44.440 --> 01:45.420]  [SPEAKER_21]: For you!
[01:46.660 --> 01:52.700]  [SPEAKER_21]: For your incandescent, brilliant, palpitating talent!
[01:54.940 --> 01:57.240]  [SPEAKER_12]: All mixed up with Peter Beauchamp.
[01:57.480 --> 02:00.680]  [SPEAKER_12]: Monday mornings at 9.30, here on WBAI.
[02:07.350 --> 02:11.490]  [SPEAKER_31]: And it's 10.01, which means it's one minute late for Off the Hook.
[02:17.940 --> 02:22.560]  [SPEAKER_29]: The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
[02:23.440 --> 02:28.160]  [SPEAKER_29]: I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a call.
[02:29.080 --> 02:33.540]  [SPEAKER_29]: It couldn't get much worse, but if they could, they would.
[02:33.800 --> 02:36.460]  [SPEAKER_29]: Bum-Dilly-Bum for the best, expect the worst.
[02:37.100 --> 02:40.120]  [SPEAKER_29]: I hope that's understood, but Bum-Dilly-Bum!
[03:33.800 --> 03:35.260]  [SPEAKER_31]: And good evening to everybody.
[03:35.260 --> 03:36.460]  [SPEAKER_31]: This is Emmanuel Goldstein.
[03:36.580 --> 03:52.520]  [SPEAKER_31]: The program is Off the Hook, where we talk about the latest in telephone technology, the information superhighway, all the potholes that appear within it, and all the other nice things we can say, comparisons to the real world that we can come up with.
[03:52.520 --> 04:06.280]  [SPEAKER_31]: And, of course, we'll be taking your phone calls at 212-279-3400, and talking about some current events which have been taking place currently.
[04:07.780 --> 04:24.020]  [SPEAKER_31]: Yeah, okay, well, let's start off with something kind of new from AT&T that has just been introduced, and that is an addition to the AT&T EasyReach service.
[04:24.640 --> 04:29.780]  [SPEAKER_31]: Now, AT&T EasyReach is something that we've been talking about over the past year or so here.
[04:29.780 --> 04:40.500]  [SPEAKER_31]: It involves what is known as an 0700 number, which you can use to route anywhere in the country that you wish to have your calls go to.
[04:40.940 --> 04:47.360]  [SPEAKER_31]: Now, the way that this service was marketed was that you would only need to have one phone number for the rest of your life.
[04:47.360 --> 04:50.640]  [SPEAKER_31]: You could simply have that number follow you around wherever you go.
[04:51.400 --> 04:59.760]  [SPEAKER_31]: Well, of course, after that service was introduced, it turned out that they were going to move the 0700 service down to the 500 area code.
[04:59.860 --> 05:01.900]  [SPEAKER_31]: That has not yet happened, but it is planned.
[05:02.240 --> 05:08.920]  [SPEAKER_31]: So that means that right away, everyone's phone number will be changing your phone numbers that you will never have to change.
[05:09.680 --> 05:11.540]  [SPEAKER_31]: But that's not what we're going to talk about tonight.
[05:11.740 --> 05:14.020]  [SPEAKER_31]: Tonight, there is an expansion to the service.
[05:14.140 --> 05:16.720]  [SPEAKER_31]: Well, actually, not tonight, but tonight we're talking about that.
[05:17.800 --> 05:33.040]  [SPEAKER_31]: So USA Direct, along with the AT&T Overseas Service and all that kind of thing, is kind of combining with EasyReach to allow you to expand your calls to other countries as well.
[05:33.280 --> 05:39.320]  [SPEAKER_31]: So what this means is that you can go overseas and have your calls follow you on this 0700 number.
[05:39.800 --> 05:44.340]  [SPEAKER_31]: And that means that either you or the person calling you will wind up paying overseas rates.
[05:44.340 --> 05:47.860]  [SPEAKER_31]: You can also have it so that you can program this from overseas.
[05:47.860 --> 05:51.220]  [SPEAKER_31]: You can have people from overseas call your 700 number now.
[05:51.360 --> 05:56.400]  [SPEAKER_31]: However, the way it's explained here, there is no way that people overseas can pay for the calls.
[05:56.400 --> 05:57.920]  [SPEAKER_31]: They have to charge them to you.
[05:58.060 --> 06:00.080]  [SPEAKER_31]: So that's a slight inconvenience there.
[06:02.100 --> 06:07.500]  [SPEAKER_31]: I'll read you some questions and answers that this AT&T brochure gives out.
[06:07.740 --> 06:12.040]  [SPEAKER_31]: You know, I just can't believe people have the audacity to beat me while I'm on the air.
[06:12.040 --> 06:12.280]  [SPEAKER_31]: Okay.
[06:12.880 --> 06:15.100]  [SPEAKER_31]: Well, that's something we'll have to deal with.
[06:16.540 --> 06:17.640]  [SPEAKER_31]: Here's some questions.
[06:18.040 --> 06:19.480]  [SPEAKER_31]: Questions and answers.
[06:20.660 --> 06:25.820]  [SPEAKER_31]: What will I be charged to forward a call to an overseas location from a phone in the United States?
[06:26.540 --> 06:26.980]  [SPEAKER_31]: Nothing.
[06:27.220 --> 06:27.640]  [SPEAKER_31]: That's right.
[06:27.700 --> 06:32.760]  [SPEAKER_31]: You can call your 0700 number from anywhere in the United States and program it, and it doesn't cost a thing.
[06:32.840 --> 06:34.640]  [SPEAKER_31]: That's kind of neat, but so what?
[06:34.640 --> 06:44.540]  [SPEAKER_31]: To forward calls from a phone overseas, though, you will be charged the AT&T USA direct rates, as if you were calling back here in the United States, because that's really what you're doing.
[06:46.140 --> 06:52.300]  [SPEAKER_31]: Now, will my callers be told that their call is going out of the country if they're calling me overseas from the U.S.?
[06:53.000 --> 06:53.440]  [SPEAKER_31]: Yes.
[06:53.440 --> 06:57.860]  [SPEAKER_31]: And if they're paying for the call themselves, they'll be told specifically which country their call is going to.
[06:58.460 --> 07:00.260]  [SPEAKER_31]: That's what we're going to do here tonight.
[07:00.640 --> 07:06.400]  [SPEAKER_31]: We're going to actually play around with this system a little bit, because it's just a lot of fun.
[07:06.820 --> 07:13.480]  [SPEAKER_31]: First, what we're going to do is call up our own specially programmed 700 number.
[07:13.840 --> 07:14.700]  [SPEAKER_31]: Okay, there we go.
[07:14.740 --> 07:15.440]  [SPEAKER_31]: There's our dial tone.
[07:16.700 --> 07:25.360]  [SPEAKER_31]: And we do that by dialing 102-88-0700, and then the 700 number.
[07:26.560 --> 07:28.300]  [SPEAKER_31]: And we should get an AT&T recording.
[07:30.960 --> 07:31.740]  [SPEAKER_10]: We're sorry.
[07:32.020 --> 07:34.340]  [SPEAKER_10]: Your call cannot be completed as dialed.
[07:34.540 --> 07:36.400]  [SPEAKER_10]: Please check the number and dial again.
[07:37.580 --> 07:38.980]  [SPEAKER_31]: Well, obviously, that's not what happened.
[07:39.000 --> 07:41.200]  [SPEAKER_31]: Let's see what went wrong there and try it one more time.
[07:43.060 --> 07:45.380]  [SPEAKER_31]: Something wrong with our keypad there.
[07:45.400 --> 07:46.620]  [SPEAKER_31]: It sounds kind of sloppy.
[07:53.680 --> 07:55.720]  [SPEAKER_31]: I'm afraid we might get the same thing again.
[08:05.330 --> 08:06.090]  [SPEAKER_11]: We're sorry.
[08:06.090 --> 08:07.770]  [SPEAKER_31]: Well, I don't know what's going wrong here.
[08:07.870 --> 08:09.230]  [SPEAKER_31]: Let's try a different line.
[08:21.070 --> 08:21.950]  [SPEAKER_11]: AT&T.
[08:22.270 --> 08:23.370]  [SPEAKER_11]: Easy reach service.
[08:23.670 --> 08:28.830]  [SPEAKER_11]: If you have an easy reach personal identification number, enter it, and then press the pound key.
[08:28.870 --> 08:30.410]  [SPEAKER_31]: Okay, that's exactly what we're going to do.
[08:30.510 --> 08:32.990]  [SPEAKER_31]: And, of course, we're not going to allow those numbers to be entered over the air.
[08:33.350 --> 08:33.930]  [SPEAKER_31]: Here we go.
[08:38.980 --> 08:40.460]  [SPEAKER_11]: Call forwarding is on.
[08:40.700 --> 08:44.460]  [SPEAKER_11]: To review, change, or cancel call forwarding, press 1.
[08:44.700 --> 08:46.620]  [SPEAKER_11]: To place a call, press 2.
[08:46.620 --> 08:47.440]  [SPEAKER_31]: We're going to press 1.
[08:47.440 --> 08:56.840]  [SPEAKER_11]: Your easy reach calls will be forwarded to 5, 1, 6, 4, 7, 3, 2, 6, 2, 6.
[08:57.100 --> 08:58.900]  [SPEAKER_11]: Until you cancel, call forwarding.
[08:58.900 --> 09:00.680]  [SPEAKER_31]: That's the 2600 voice bulletin board.
[09:00.820 --> 09:01.320]  [SPEAKER_11]: Press 1.
[09:01.500 --> 09:04.920]  [SPEAKER_11]: To make a change or to cancel call forwarding, press 2.
[09:05.080 --> 09:05.960]  [SPEAKER_31]: Okay, we're going to press 2.
[09:05.960 --> 09:08.160]  [SPEAKER_11]: To cancel call forwarding, press 1.
[09:08.360 --> 09:11.840]  [SPEAKER_11]: To change the number you want calls forwarded to, press 2.
[09:12.140 --> 09:16.100]  [SPEAKER_11]: Enter the number you want calls forwarded to, followed by the pound key.
[09:16.640 --> 09:17.920]  [SPEAKER_31]: Okay, we're going to go overseas.
[09:18.400 --> 09:19.260]  [SPEAKER_31]: So we're going to enter...
[09:19.260 --> 09:20.260]  [SPEAKER_11]: Enter the area.
[09:20.320 --> 09:21.000]  [SPEAKER_31]: Yeah, yeah, I'm getting to you.
[09:21.380 --> 09:22.340]  [SPEAKER_31]: We're going to enter 011.
[09:23.840 --> 09:25.800]  [SPEAKER_31]: And let's go to England, 4, 4.
[09:27.380 --> 09:29.560]  [SPEAKER_31]: And London, 7, 1.
[09:29.720 --> 09:30.100]  [SPEAKER_31]: And then...
[09:33.110 --> 09:34.630]  [SPEAKER_31]: A bunch of random digits.
[09:35.090 --> 09:37.690]  [SPEAKER_11]: Your easy reach calls will be forwarded to...
[09:37.690 --> 09:38.230]  [SPEAKER_31]: Yeah, whatever.
[09:38.750 --> 09:39.550]  [SPEAKER_11]: Entries confirmed.
[09:39.930 --> 09:42.110]  [SPEAKER_31]: Okay, now we hang up and we call back.
[09:42.370 --> 09:43.290]  [SPEAKER_31]: Let's see if we get a warning.
[09:57.140 --> 09:58.220]  [SPEAKER_11]: AT&T.
[09:58.320 --> 09:59.540]  [SPEAKER_11]: Easy reach service.
[09:59.840 --> 10:05.100]  [SPEAKER_11]: If you have an easy reach personal identification number, enter it and then press the pound key.
[10:05.320 --> 10:09.280]  [SPEAKER_11]: If you don't have one, just press the pound key to complete this call.
[10:09.740 --> 10:13.020]  [SPEAKER_11]: Your call will be forwarded to the United Kingdom.
[10:13.020 --> 10:16.100]  [SPEAKER_11]: You will be charged international long distance rates.
[10:16.280 --> 10:16.520]  [SPEAKER_31]: Whoa.
[10:16.880 --> 10:18.500]  [SPEAKER_31]: We don't want that now, do we?
[10:19.020 --> 10:24.160]  [SPEAKER_31]: So, it tells you the country that it's forwarding to and you can have it forward virtually anywhere in the world.
[10:24.260 --> 10:31.820]  [SPEAKER_31]: So, that can be a lot of fun to play with, to hear her say your calls are being forwarded to, I don't know, Zimbabwe or something.
[10:31.920 --> 10:36.400]  [SPEAKER_31]: That might be kind of humorous on a slow Saturday night with a crowd of people.
[10:37.660 --> 10:40.480]  [SPEAKER_31]: Remind me to forward that back to where it's supposed to be going.
[10:41.080 --> 10:43.820]  [SPEAKER_31]: Hopefully, nobody will call that number in the time that we have.
[10:46.160 --> 10:50.940]  [SPEAKER_31]: Alright, we have some other news to fill people in on.
[10:52.660 --> 10:58.880]  [SPEAKER_31]: I guess, in a way, it's kind of anticlimactic to put it this way.
[10:59.040 --> 11:09.540]  [SPEAKER_31]: Because the way things have been going in the past few days, it's been a virtual crescendo of activity, passion, feelings of all sorts.
[11:10.160 --> 11:18.300]  [SPEAKER_31]: And we're just going to try and present it all here in a form where we can talk about it in a civilized manner over the radio.
[11:18.300 --> 11:21.600]  [SPEAKER_31]: So, I hope we can do this.
[12:16.860 --> 12:21.900]  [SPEAKER_31]: Inconfident is defined by Webster's as...
[12:21.900 --> 12:24.820]  [SPEAKER_31]: Inconfident is defined by Webster's as...
[12:33.600 --> 12:34.160]  [SPEAKER_31]: Well,
[12:38.020 --> 12:51.200]  [SPEAKER_31]: I couldn't find 9x in a dictionary, but I am writing a letter to Webster's asking them to include a pointer in that particular category.
[12:52.100 --> 12:59.900]  [SPEAKER_31]: The trials and tribulations we have had with 9x over the past few months have been outstanding, to say the least.
[13:01.160 --> 13:02.580]  [SPEAKER_31]: Nothing complicated, mind you.
[13:02.680 --> 13:06.710]  [SPEAKER_31]: Nothing like figuring out the square root of pi or something like that.
[13:06.710 --> 13:10.300]  [SPEAKER_31]: This is something that I understand they know how to do.
[13:17.460 --> 13:24.120]  [SPEAKER_31]: Something like installing a phone line and doing it properly.
[13:25.710 --> 13:34.540]  [SPEAKER_31]: But would you believe since March, we have been trying at the 2600 offices to get the phone lines installed and to have them stay installed?
[13:36.300 --> 13:38.280]  [SPEAKER_31]: No, it doesn't work that way, you see.
[13:38.900 --> 13:43.020]  [SPEAKER_31]: What has happened since March is that we've had lines put in that don't belong to us.
[13:43.020 --> 13:45.660]  [SPEAKER_31]: We've had lines that do belong to us put in in other places.
[13:45.940 --> 13:53.600]  [SPEAKER_31]: We've had lines that belong to us put in in our places, but put in in the wrong possible manners, under the wrong names, with the wrong services.
[13:55.120 --> 14:02.860]  [SPEAKER_31]: And, on top of everything else, disconnected over and over and over again.
[14:06.420 --> 14:07.600]  [SPEAKER_31]: It just never stops.
[14:07.780 --> 14:09.120]  [SPEAKER_31]: Today was the last straw.
[14:09.280 --> 14:12.900]  [SPEAKER_31]: Today was the day where I went over the deep end and turned into a screaming maniac.
[14:14.900 --> 14:22.470]  [SPEAKER_31]: Because after many, many times of calling them and saying, Hey, you know, these lines still aren't configured in just the right way.
[14:22.470 --> 14:24.780]  [SPEAKER_31]: You know, this line is called waiting and it's a fax line.
[14:24.920 --> 14:26.620]  [SPEAKER_31]: It's really a bad thing for a fax line to have.
[14:26.730 --> 14:27.680]  [SPEAKER_31]: It's called waiting, you know.
[14:29.120 --> 14:33.230]  [SPEAKER_31]: So, they went out and they disconnected the fax line for us.
[14:35.490 --> 14:47.880]  [SPEAKER_31]: So, this having happened four or five times over the last several months, I kind of said to them, you know, this doesn't make me all too happy.
[14:47.990 --> 14:52.160]  [SPEAKER_31]: This is kind of like harassment, whether it's incompetence, maliciousness.
[14:52.160 --> 14:53.580]  [SPEAKER_31]: Because it doesn't really matter at this point.
[14:54.140 --> 14:56.180]  [SPEAKER_31]: You folks don't know what you're doing.
[14:56.460 --> 14:59.600]  [SPEAKER_31]: And the problem is, there's no competition.
[14:59.600 --> 15:01.380]  [SPEAKER_31]: There's nobody else we can go to.
[15:01.520 --> 15:02.640]  [SPEAKER_31]: There's no choice.
[15:02.640 --> 15:06.460]  [SPEAKER_31]: We're stuck with this incompetence.
[15:10.610 --> 15:11.890]  [SPEAKER_31]: What's a poor human to do?
[15:13.310 --> 15:26.830]  [SPEAKER_31]: Well, I'll tell you, if I had the option, if I had the access, if I had the means to go into their system and do it right myself, at this stage, I would not even hesitate.
[15:27.630 --> 15:35.210]  [SPEAKER_31]: And I imagine a lot of people out there feel the same way, because 9x nightmare stories are something that you could write a book about.
[15:36.830 --> 15:40.630]  [SPEAKER_31]: Where they just keep getting it wrong over and over and over again.
[15:41.510 --> 15:43.070]  [SPEAKER_31]: And you never get any answers.
[15:45.390 --> 16:06.930]  [SPEAKER_31]: But the best thing we, as law-abiding citizens, can do, apart from screaming, ranting, and raving, is to complain to the Public Service Commission, to the 9x President's Hotline, and to call us here at WBAI and vent a little bit.
[16:08.530 --> 16:10.950]  [SPEAKER_31]: Let us know what kinds of horrible things have happened to you.
[16:16.610 --> 16:18.780]  [SPEAKER_31]: And, if that makes you feel better, great.
[16:21.060 --> 16:25.280]  [SPEAKER_31]: But don't expect it to get your lines installed in the proper manner.
[16:28.160 --> 16:31.900]  [SPEAKER_31]: Because if I can't do it, I don't think anyone else can.
[16:39.230 --> 16:43.730]  [SPEAKER_31]: Well, complaining is something that makes you feel a little better if you complain a lot, complain to the right people.
[16:43.910 --> 16:46.890]  [SPEAKER_31]: You'll get some sympathetic ears, but you won't really get what you want in the end.
[16:47.390 --> 16:48.990]  [SPEAKER_31]: So, I don't really have any answers.
[16:49.290 --> 16:56.430]  [SPEAKER_31]: After all the talk I've been doing over the years about how to complain about 9x, about where to go, where to turn, I've gone there, I've turned there, I've been there.
[16:57.470 --> 17:00.330]  [SPEAKER_31]: And my phone lines are still disconnected for no reason at all.
[17:00.870 --> 17:01.810]  [SPEAKER_31]: And you know what's going to happen?
[17:01.890 --> 17:02.850]  [SPEAKER_31]: I can tell you this right away.
[17:03.010 --> 17:05.750]  [SPEAKER_31]: What's going to happen is tomorrow morning, bright and early, the line's going to be back.
[17:05.850 --> 17:08.250]  [SPEAKER_31]: It's going to be configured wrong, of course, but it'll be back on.
[17:09.390 --> 17:12.490]  [SPEAKER_31]: And talking to people at 9x about it will be as if it never happened.
[17:12.730 --> 17:15.570]  [SPEAKER_31]: You know, I won't ever get an answer as to why they keep doing this.
[17:16.410 --> 17:19.010]  [SPEAKER_31]: And, of course, I won't ever get it put in the way I want it to.
[17:19.310 --> 17:20.130]  [SPEAKER_31]: But, you know, you've got to think.
[17:20.170 --> 17:21.190]  [SPEAKER_31]: This is the phone company.
[17:21.290 --> 17:22.510]  [SPEAKER_31]: This is all they have to do.
[17:22.510 --> 17:26.150]  [SPEAKER_31]: They just have to get phones turned on and turn them off at the right time.
[17:27.910 --> 17:29.310]  [SPEAKER_31]: I guess we should be happy.
[17:29.410 --> 17:30.650]  [SPEAKER_31]: They're not in charge of anything else.
[17:30.790 --> 17:35.830]  [SPEAKER_31]: You know, like our mental health or the oxygen supply or anything like that.
[17:37.470 --> 17:38.950]  [SPEAKER_31]: That's the deal with 9x.
[17:39.050 --> 17:40.030]  [SPEAKER_31]: Be careful out there.
[17:41.150 --> 17:43.230]  [SPEAKER_31]: And I'm sure the same thing goes for Bell Atlantic.
[17:43.410 --> 17:45.030]  [SPEAKER_31]: I'd like to hear from people in New Jersey as well.
[17:45.570 --> 17:48.610]  [SPEAKER_31]: People in New England, from Southern New England Telephone, the independent company.
[17:49.170 --> 17:50.310]  [SPEAKER_31]: Don't know how things go over there.
[17:51.290 --> 17:57.530]  [SPEAKER_31]: Okay, those of you reading newspapers, and I know a lot of you do that, might have seen an article in Sunday's New York Times.
[17:57.610 --> 18:06.310]  [SPEAKER_31]: In fact, the front page of Sunday's New York Times entitled, Cyberspace's Most Wanted, Dark Side Hacker Eludes FBI Pursuit.
[18:06.350 --> 18:12.410]  [SPEAKER_31]: It's an article all about Kevin Mitnick, who, over the years, we've talked about here on this radio program.
[18:12.910 --> 18:16.190]  [SPEAKER_31]: The, quote-unquote, dark side hacker.
[18:16.850 --> 18:19.710]  [SPEAKER_31]: I'll read you the first couple of paragraphs of this thing.
[18:20.330 --> 18:28.190]  [SPEAKER_31]: Combining technical wizardry with the age-old guile of a grifter, Kevin Mitnick is a computer programmer run amok.
[18:28.410 --> 18:31.730]  [SPEAKER_31]: Law enforcement officials cannot seem to catch up with him.
[18:31.730 --> 18:37.290]  [SPEAKER_31]: Thirty years old, Mr. Mitnick has already served time in jail for one computer crime and pleaded guilty to another.
[18:37.610 --> 18:46.550]  [SPEAKER_31]: One of his lawyers told the court that he had an addiction to computers, and during his time in a treatment program, he was prohibited from touching a computer or a modem.
[18:47.410 --> 19:03.950]  [SPEAKER_31]: Now one of the nation's most wanted computer criminals, Mr. Mitnick is suspected of stealing software and data from more than half a dozen leading cellular telephone manufacturers, coaxing gullible employees into giving him passwords and computer codes that could be used to break into their computers.
[19:04.530 --> 19:14.390]  [SPEAKER_31]: He's currently being hunted for violating a federal probation requirement that he not enter computers illegally or associate with other people convicted of similar crimes.
[19:23.000 --> 19:31.580]  [SPEAKER_31]: Now, included in this article is a picture of Kevin Mitnick saying Kevin Mitnick is suspected of stealing software and data from cellular telephone companies.
[19:34.080 --> 19:46.300]  [SPEAKER_31]: And I guess a lot of also kind of catching up from the book Cyberpunk, which came out a couple of years ago and included as one of its chapters a story on Kevin Mitnick.
[19:46.420 --> 19:53.560]  [SPEAKER_31]: We have on the phone with us the author of this article and the co-author of the book Cyberpunk, and that is John Markoff from San Francisco.
[19:53.700 --> 19:54.260]  [SPEAKER_31]: Johnny, with us.
[19:54.440 --> 19:55.340]  [SPEAKER_22]: Yes, I'm still here.
[19:55.480 --> 19:55.760]  [SPEAKER_31]: Hi.
[19:56.460 --> 20:03.960]  [SPEAKER_31]: Well, now, I guess the first question I have is concerning this story, and maybe you can answer this.
[20:04.780 --> 20:07.920]  [SPEAKER_31]: Does this seem to you to be a page one kind of a story?
[20:09.460 --> 20:12.000]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, first of all, it was in Monday's paper and not Sunday's.
[20:12.080 --> 20:13.020]  [SPEAKER_20]: It was July 4th.
[20:14.320 --> 20:15.380]  [SPEAKER_31]: Okay, my mistake then.
[20:15.640 --> 20:16.860]  [SPEAKER_20]: Yeah, no problem.
[20:17.680 --> 20:18.880]  [SPEAKER_20]: Yeah, I think it is.
[20:19.080 --> 20:28.140]  [SPEAKER_20]: Given what the FBI suspects Kevin is doing now, I think it merits public attention.
[20:30.480 --> 20:46.020]  [SPEAKER_20]: I don't think anyone since Kevin is still a fugitive has proof that he's actually stolen software from half a dozen cellular phone makers, but he's the suspect that they're looking for.
[20:46.360 --> 20:51.220]  [SPEAKER_20]: And if you talk to these companies, as I have, they're pissed.
[20:52.200 --> 21:04.380]  [SPEAKER_20]: You know, we're talking about the next generation of cellular telephones, and there's been a tremendous amount of discussion about how insecure the current generation of analog telephones are.
[21:04.540 --> 21:09.640]  [SPEAKER_20]: And there's been some hope that the next generation of phones will offer more privacy.
[21:10.520 --> 21:23.740]  [SPEAKER_20]: And if the source code to these phones is floating around out there on the net, I'm not sure if it really benefits the public to have it widely distributed that way.
[21:24.700 --> 21:30.820]  [SPEAKER_31]: Have they offered any substantial proof that he is, in fact, the person that did this?
[21:31.800 --> 21:33.080]  [SPEAKER_31]: Or are they just saying that?
[21:33.760 --> 21:37.760]  [SPEAKER_20]: They are just saying that to people at the companies and to other people that they talk to.
[21:38.540 --> 21:45.120]  [SPEAKER_20]: And I don't know why the FBI has decided that it's Kevin Mitnick.
[21:45.700 --> 22:04.200]  [SPEAKER_20]: It's conceivable that he's a convenient fugitive, but I've been writing about Kevin for a long time and sort of following his adventures and it would be plausible based on discussions that I've had at least with one company in great detail about what happened that it was in fact Kevin.
[22:04.960 --> 22:05.580]  [SPEAKER_31]: Uh-huh.
[22:06.000 --> 22:18.880]  [SPEAKER_31]: Well, it's interesting because I'm sure you know the effect of having a front-page story on a nationwide newspaper with somebody's picture in it creates I guess kind of a man-hunt atmosphere.
[22:18.880 --> 22:21.300]  [SPEAKER_31]: I'm sure a lot of people out there right now are hunting for Kevin.
[22:21.800 --> 22:24.560]  [SPEAKER_20]: I got a call this afternoon from America's Most Wanted.
[22:24.740 --> 22:25.780]  [SPEAKER_31]: Oh boy, what did they want?
[22:25.960 --> 22:28.620]  [SPEAKER_20]: They wanted to do a television program about Kevin.
[22:28.900 --> 22:29.180]  [SPEAKER_31]: Uh-huh.
[22:29.180 --> 22:30.200]  [SPEAKER_31]: And what did you say?
[22:30.700 --> 22:31.760]  [SPEAKER_20]: I said good luck.
[22:32.980 --> 22:34.880]  [SPEAKER_31]: Well, did they need your permission to do that?
[22:35.120 --> 22:35.820]  [SPEAKER_20]: No, of course not.
[22:35.840 --> 22:36.700]  [SPEAKER_20]: They wanted my help.
[22:36.840 --> 22:38.760]  [SPEAKER_20]: I wasn't really in a you know, that's not my job.
[22:39.080 --> 22:39.300]  [SPEAKER_20]: Uh-huh.
[22:39.720 --> 22:44.040]  [SPEAKER_31]: Well, now we're talking about someone that is alleged to have copied software.
[22:44.200 --> 22:45.300]  [SPEAKER_31]: Is that the deal?
[22:45.620 --> 22:48.980]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, I mean, we're talking about someone who has copied software.
[22:49.160 --> 22:50.660]  [SPEAKER_20]: Remember, he's gone to jail for it a couple of times.
[22:50.720 --> 22:52.400]  [SPEAKER_31]: Right, but he served his time for that, did he not?
[22:52.580 --> 23:06.300]  [SPEAKER_20]: He did, and he went into a halfway house and went through a therapy program modeled after the Alcoholics Anonymous 12-step program.
[23:06.500 --> 23:06.680]  [SPEAKER_31]: Right.
[23:07.080 --> 23:14.900]  [SPEAKER_20]: And then got a job as a programmer, and I think I've heard moved to Las Vegas and lived there for a while, and then at one point moved back to
[23:23.560 --> 23:28.840]  [SPEAKER_20]: warrant on him and a friend of his, alleging that he was violating the terms of his probation.
[23:30.000 --> 23:32.620]  [SPEAKER_20]: And there were two points to the
[23:35.920 --> 23:40.040]  [SPEAKER_20]: warrant that was issued for his arrest after he disappeared.
[23:40.040 --> 23:54.080]  [SPEAKER_20]: One was that he was associated with known computer criminals, which is an interesting concept, and two, that he had illegally accessed a Pacific Bell computer in August of 1992.
[23:55.720 --> 24:00.100]  [SPEAKER_20]: And, you know, that's why the FBI was looking for him.
[24:00.120 --> 24:02.740]  [SPEAKER_20]: I don't know more detail than that.
[24:04.240 --> 24:11.340]  [SPEAKER_31]: Well, now, apart from him, though, being alleged to have copied this software, I'm not talking about what he already served time for.
[24:11.380 --> 24:22.240]  [SPEAKER_31]: I'm talking about what has happened since then, and alleged to have associated with people that were criminals of some sort, which is not too difficult to do in the hacker world, certainly, or in the real world.
[24:23.440 --> 24:25.600]  [SPEAKER_31]: Is there anything else that...
[24:25.600 --> 24:26.880]  [SPEAKER_20]: There's another warrant.
[24:27.060 --> 24:27.260]  [SPEAKER_31]: Okay.
[24:27.560 --> 24:34.080]  [SPEAKER_20]: There's a state warrant issued by the California Department of Motor Vehicles, which is a really intriguing one, actually.
[24:34.320 --> 24:35.780]  [SPEAKER_20]: I mean, it's actually fairly remarkable.
[24:36.440 --> 24:40.360]  [SPEAKER_20]: It was issued almost a year later in September of 1993.
[24:42.320 --> 24:49.080]  [SPEAKER_20]: And Kevin is alleged by that warrant, and there's a million-dollar bail attached, a million-dollar bail figure attached to that warrant.
[24:50.020 --> 25:07.880]  [SPEAKER_20]: Kevin is alleged to have wiretapped FBI agents who are calling the DMV for license information and obtain their law enforcement access codes and then use those codes to illegally obtain DMV information.
[25:08.500 --> 25:11.800]  [SPEAKER_20]: It's now not legal to get that information from the DMV.
[25:13.520 --> 25:32.000]  [SPEAKER_20]: And I spoke with the investigator on that case, who was more willing to talk to me than the FBI, and he spent a couple of months looking for Kevin last year and gave up after a while and wasn't getting much cooperation from the FBI, which was actually also interesting.
[25:33.700 --> 25:34.220]  [SPEAKER_31]: Yeah.
[25:34.860 --> 25:36.180]  [SPEAKER_20]: There are two cases.
[25:36.180 --> 25:41.940]  [SPEAKER_20]: there are two allegations based on, I suppose, on evidence that he's broken the law.
[25:44.100 --> 25:52.840]  [SPEAKER_20]: Breaking into a pack bell of computer and wiretapping FBI agents, which my understanding is also entails taking control of telephone switches.
[25:53.300 --> 25:55.860]  [SPEAKER_31]: How did they know that he was wiretapping them?
[25:56.640 --> 25:59.180]  [SPEAKER_20]: I have only had the warrant read to me.
[25:59.260 --> 25:59.820]  [SPEAKER_20]: I do not know.
[26:00.660 --> 26:08.300]  [SPEAKER_31]: Now, are we able to find out how they found this out, or we just have to take their word until Kevin is apprehended, if he ever is.
[26:08.800 --> 26:11.460]  [SPEAKER_20]: And then I imagine they're going to have to bring their evidence into court.
[26:12.900 --> 26:14.860]  [SPEAKER_31]: Because it sounds kind of staggering.
[26:15.060 --> 26:31.080]  [SPEAKER_31]: I mean, they're saying these things that he's wiretapping agencies that are supposed to be wiretapping him and causing them to completely not be able to do their job properly, and yet we don't know how they know this until he's brought into captivity of sorts.
[26:31.440 --> 26:32.120]  [SPEAKER_20]: I agree.
[26:33.100 --> 26:49.400]  [SPEAKER_31]: I'm just a little baffled as to why this is being treated as if he were some sort of a mass murderer or something, because I mean, this kind of a manhunt usually is reserved for only the most desperate of criminals, and we talk about somebody that if he did all this,
[26:49.660 --> 27:00.100]  [SPEAKER_31]: simply entered computers, manipulated data, copied software, which I'm not saying is right, but does it warrant having a picture on the front page of the New York Times?
[27:00.620 --> 27:08.960]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, the decision on where to place the story is one that was made by the editors of the Times.
[27:09.200 --> 27:24.580]  [SPEAKER_20]: I mean, I think you can make the case that because of the importance of telecommunication systems today, that significant threats to their security or to the privacy of people who are using them is something that we should be concerned about.
[27:25.520 --> 27:34.540]  [SPEAKER_20]: And I think that if the allegations and what I've learned from my reporting is true, that what Kevin may have done raises those issues.
[27:36.500 --> 27:37.340]  [SPEAKER_31]: It's interesting.
[27:37.540 --> 27:42.140]  [SPEAKER_31]: I'd like to read one part of the story here and tell me if this is in fact true.
[27:42.620 --> 27:55.840]  [SPEAKER_31]: There is no evidence that Mr. Mitnick has used his computer skills illegally to make money, although the cellular phone companies say the person who stole their software could sell it to competing manufacturers in Asia or to criminals who want to offer free phone calls.
[27:55.920 --> 28:00.840]  [SPEAKER_31]: So there's no actual proof that he has done anything monetarily with his skills.
[28:01.000 --> 28:01.840]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, that's...
[28:01.840 --> 28:04.000]  [SPEAKER_20]: That apparently is not true.
[28:05.120 --> 28:18.260]  [SPEAKER_20]: You know, it's a difficult and sort of gray area, but when Kevin moved back from Las Vegas to California, I've heard he went to work for a private investigative firm.
[28:18.940 --> 28:20.600]  [SPEAKER_20]: And there have been some allegations.
[28:20.600 --> 28:27.300]  [SPEAKER_20]: I don't know if they're contained in the warrants, that he was using his skills for the private investigative firm.
[28:27.920 --> 28:33.780]  [SPEAKER_20]: Now, that, to me, would be a pretty clear case of using his particular talents for profit.
[28:33.980 --> 28:34.960]  [SPEAKER_31]: Yeah, but not illegally.
[28:35.780 --> 28:40.200]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, that's apparently what the FBI believes he was doing, that he was using them illegally.
[28:40.620 --> 28:40.900]  [SPEAKER_31]: Mm-hmm.
[28:41.500 --> 28:50.240]  [SPEAKER_31]: I was also kind of curious, you're familiar with the exploits of the Computers, Freedom, and Privacy Conference in Chicago earlier this year.
[28:51.680 --> 28:52.080]  [SPEAKER_20]: Yes.
[28:52.280 --> 28:55.100]  [SPEAKER_31]: And I didn't see any mention of that in the story, was that in fact?
[28:55.120 --> 28:58.180]  [SPEAKER_20]: It was, I guess you'd say it was cut for space, is what they usually say.
[28:58.280 --> 29:05.020]  [SPEAKER_20]: There was a discussion of that in the article, and I think the agency is particularly sensitive actually to that.
[29:05.160 --> 29:08.080]  [SPEAKER_20]: They were very embarrassed by that event.
[29:08.080 --> 29:25.780]  [SPEAKER_20]: It wasn't just Kevin they were looking for, they were also looking for another person who is also a fugitive, but who was an FBI informant at one point, who, his name is, he's there, Eric Peterson, I believe, or Eric Hines or Justin Peterson.
[29:25.960 --> 29:26.920]  [SPEAKER_20]: He has a couple of aliases.
[29:27.240 --> 29:28.340]  [SPEAKER_31]: Known as Agent Steele.
[29:28.580 --> 29:29.200]  [SPEAKER_20]: Agent Steele.
[29:31.100 --> 29:38.940]  [SPEAKER_20]: The FBI had reason to believe he was there too, so they pulled some poor guy into custody and checked to see if he had a wooden leg and then released him.
[29:39.080 --> 29:43.760]  [SPEAKER_31]: Well, actually, what had happened was they had pulled one person into custody thinking he was Kevin Mitnick.
[29:43.860 --> 29:46.640]  [SPEAKER_31]: They actually fingerprinted him before they realized they had the wrong person.
[29:46.860 --> 29:54.860]  [SPEAKER_31]: They pulled another person away and asked to see his leg because Agent Steele has a wooden leg and this person did not.
[29:55.020 --> 30:03.860]  [SPEAKER_31]: And then they knocked on the door of Robert Steele, former CIA employee, thinking that perhaps he might be related to Agent Steele, and of course he was not.
[30:03.860 --> 30:06.240]  [SPEAKER_20]: I think you spelled Steele differently, right?
[30:06.380 --> 30:11.360]  [SPEAKER_31]: Yes, he did, but I'm sure they thought maybe he was especially tricky by doing that.
[30:13.240 --> 30:25.740]  [SPEAKER_31]: I guess it raises some questions in people's eyes why something like that, that obviously embarrassed the FBI, that kind of thing wasn't in the story, but all this other allegations that the FBI is giving, that that was in the story.
[30:25.920 --> 30:27.060]  [SPEAKER_31]: Are you at all disturbed by that?
[30:27.160 --> 30:29.080]  [SPEAKER_20]: That's a fair...
[30:29.080 --> 30:39.040]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, in the defense of the times, we actually reported that earlier, and that may have been why the editors decided it wasn't news.
[30:39.900 --> 30:41.440]  [SPEAKER_20]: It's a call I can't make.
[30:41.780 --> 30:45.500]  [SPEAKER_20]: You know, I often have much more information than I can fit into the space that's allowed.
[30:45.740 --> 30:49.740]  [SPEAKER_31]: Right, but a lot of this story, though, is also rehashing of things in the past, right?
[30:49.960 --> 30:50.560]  [SPEAKER_20]: That's true.
[30:50.780 --> 30:57.080]  [SPEAKER_20]: It was a story that was in great part a profile of Kevin.
[30:59.240 --> 31:00.240]  [SPEAKER_20]: And it was motivated.
[31:00.400 --> 31:08.240]  [SPEAKER_20]: I mean, you know, I have known that Kevin has been a fugitive for some time, and I didn't think that was particularly newsworthy.
[31:09.020 --> 31:27.700]  [SPEAKER_20]: However, after I spent half a day with a cellular telephone company, and they took me through what had happened to them, I decided that it probably did merit, because they lost 112 megabytes of source code, which is the instructions the programmers write.
[31:32.180 --> 31:40.400]  [SPEAKER_20]: the software that ultimately will go into the transceiver, the little handheld thing you carry around, which is basically just a radio and a computer.
[31:41.780 --> 31:48.920]  [SPEAKER_20]: And I think it's very interesting to speculate on what someone might do if they really knew the inner workings of that software.
[31:49.400 --> 31:53.380]  [SPEAKER_31]: I think it would be interesting to speculate on that, whether or not Kevin Mitnick were a factor in this.
[31:53.540 --> 31:54.220]  [SPEAKER_31]: I agree.
[31:54.220 --> 31:57.600]  [SPEAKER_31]: What exactly are the weaknesses in this particular software?
[31:57.780 --> 32:05.200]  [SPEAKER_20]: I think we both have friends who have taken this software apart in the current analog generation of phones.
[32:05.320 --> 32:31.220]  [SPEAKER_20]: I mean, I have seen many cocktail party demonstrations of people who can, just by knowing the right magic cookie, can drop into the basement of the software of our today's cellular phones and turn them into scanners, which, of course, it means that every cellular phone today that it's sold actually violates the electronic privacy protections we're supposed to have.
[32:31.360 --> 32:31.760]  [SPEAKER_31]: That's true.
[32:31.920 --> 32:33.320]  [SPEAKER_31]: Yeah, every cellular phone is a radio.
[32:33.560 --> 32:34.860]  [SPEAKER_31]: That's something to remember.
[32:35.180 --> 32:36.900]  [SPEAKER_20]: Yeah, and it's an illegal device.
[32:37.620 --> 32:37.900]  [SPEAKER_31]: Uh-huh.
[32:39.200 --> 32:43.840]  [SPEAKER_31]: So, are these companies worried about any particular thing happening to them?
[32:45.440 --> 33:00.420]  [SPEAKER_20]: I think that these companies, you know, a company like the one I wrote about in Southern California, which, I mean, I talked to them, I'm not going to mention their name, because I talked to them, and they were willing to talk to me on the grounds that I kept them out of the paper,
[33:00.420 --> 33:14.020]  [SPEAKER_20]: because they're in the midst of very delicate legal negotiations, and if it was widely publicized that their software was potentially tremendously insecure, I think it probably would do great damage to the company.
[33:15.100 --> 33:20.020]  [SPEAKER_20]: So I made that deal in exchange for them describing to me exactly what had happened.
[33:20.020 --> 33:24.300]  [SPEAKER_20]: and they're very worried, but they don't have a good idea of what someone might do.
[33:24.920 --> 33:44.520]  [SPEAKER_20]: They speculated that someone might be able to sell the software to an Asian manufacturer who wanted to make a clone phone, but it's not an easy proposition, because these next generation of phones are going to be based on custom semiconductor technology that's not... the hardware is... it would be very difficult to knock off.
[33:44.660 --> 33:46.420]  [SPEAKER_20]: So that's probably not what they're going to do.
[33:46.920 --> 33:49.880]  [SPEAKER_20]: What's probably more likely is someone who is interested in finding
[33:53.860 --> 34:10.260]  [SPEAKER_20]: either security flaws so that perhaps you could get free phone time, or perhaps if you could spoof the cellular network in some way, if you control the... if you control the transceiver software, you might be able to hide your location in the cellular network.
[34:11.100 --> 34:19.760]  [SPEAKER_20]: You might be able to persuade the network that you were actually somewhere other than where you were, which if you were hiding from the police would be a very handy thing.
[34:20.640 --> 34:23.680]  [SPEAKER_20]: You know, we've all sort of read about what happened to O.J.
[34:23.780 --> 34:25.960]  [SPEAKER_20]: Simpson in the last couple of weeks.
[34:26.160 --> 34:41.840]  [SPEAKER_20]: I mean, that was... I don't know what the papers back east wrote about it, but it was a big thing in the California papers where there were a lot of claims that Simpson was found because of the surveillance capabilities built into the cellular network.
[34:42.500 --> 34:46.240]  [SPEAKER_20]: I actually believe that's not true, but that was what the newspaper said.
[34:46.240 --> 34:54.380]  [SPEAKER_31]: Well, we actually talked about that a couple of weeks ago, how a cellular phone that's just left on can be used to find somebody or at least find the cell that they're in.
[34:54.500 --> 34:54.720]  [SPEAKER_31]: Right.
[34:55.320 --> 34:56.920]  [SPEAKER_31]: Without having to actually make a call.
[34:57.140 --> 34:58.220]  [SPEAKER_20]: And I think that's technically true.
[34:58.280 --> 35:07.460]  [SPEAKER_20]: I actually believe that Simpson was found by a cop who just happened to have an APB looking for him, but they certainly were tracing him through the network.
[35:07.660 --> 35:14.160]  [SPEAKER_31]: I imagine quite a few people probably had access to that conversation, too, if it was being made right over a cellular link.
[35:14.160 --> 35:16.340]  [SPEAKER_20]: I'm actually kind of surprised it hasn't been published yet.
[35:16.520 --> 35:17.240]  [SPEAKER_31]: Yeah, I am, too.
[35:17.400 --> 35:19.120]  [SPEAKER_31]: I'm not expecting to get a tape in the mail any day.
[35:20.260 --> 35:26.800]  [SPEAKER_31]: I'd like to read something from the article here concerning that kind of a thing as far as hiding identity.
[35:27.820 --> 35:39.260]  [SPEAKER_31]: A year after, actually, in 1988, he was arrested again, this time by FBI agents on charges of stealing prototype operating system software from the Digital Equipment Corporation.
[35:39.260 --> 35:40.460]  [SPEAKER_31]: He was later convicted.
[35:40.460 --> 35:51.240]  [SPEAKER_31]: The FBI had closed in on him only after he tried to harass a friend and partner in crime pretending to be an IRS agent and making threatening calls to his friend's employer.
[35:51.480 --> 35:52.720]  [SPEAKER_31]: Actually, that wasn't the part I wanted to read.
[35:52.780 --> 35:53.600]  [SPEAKER_31]: The part I wanted to read is this.
[35:53.680 --> 35:58.920]  [SPEAKER_31]: The exploits Mr. Mitnick, who worked at various computer programming jobs to support himself, became legendary.
[35:59.120 --> 36:07.000]  [SPEAKER_31]: For example, after he gained control of the telephone switching network in Los Angeles, he reprogrammed the system to mislead federal agents trying to trace his call.
[36:07.280 --> 36:11.780]  [SPEAKER_31]: Thinking they had found his hideout, they barged into the home of a Middle Eastern immigrant watching television.
[36:12.060 --> 36:12.940]  [SPEAKER_31]: That actually happened?
[36:13.120 --> 36:13.980]  [SPEAKER_20]: That did actually happen.
[36:14.480 --> 36:15.740]  [SPEAKER_31]: Just like on TV, huh?
[36:16.940 --> 36:18.260]  [SPEAKER_20]: What do you mean just like on TV?
[36:18.500 --> 36:20.100]  [SPEAKER_31]: Where they barged into the wrong place.
[36:20.240 --> 36:20.800]  [SPEAKER_20]: Oh, well, they did.
[36:20.880 --> 36:21.540]  [SPEAKER_20]: They did, yes.
[36:21.640 --> 36:22.820]  [SPEAKER_20]: And they were incredibly embarrassed.
[36:23.500 --> 36:31.420]  [SPEAKER_20]: But, you know, Kevin routinely, this is back in 1988, when he would work, he was working from his friend's place of work.
[36:31.500 --> 36:33.040]  [SPEAKER_20]: They would go there after-hours.
[36:34.400 --> 36:37.800]  [SPEAKER_20]: And it was a small
[36:48.000 --> 36:52.310]  [SPEAKER_20]: and they had BMS systems, which were Kevin's favorites.
[36:52.540 --> 37:08.740]  [SPEAKER_20]: And before he would start work every night, he referred to it as his work, they would go into the wiring closet, the telephone wiring closet of the company, and he would rewire all the phones so anybody looking for him on a physical basis, like if they'd actually tap the lines physically,
[37:09.000 --> 37:11.260]  [SPEAKER_20]: would be led to other offices in the building.
[37:11.890 --> 37:12.330]  [SPEAKER_31]: Uh-huh.
[37:13.540 --> 37:14.390]  [SPEAKER_20]: Are we still on?
[37:14.450 --> 37:16.330]  [SPEAKER_31]: Yes, that was just somebody tapping our line, apparently.
[37:17.780 --> 37:24.100]  [SPEAKER_20]: But he would also, if you control the switch, I mean, you know, you control the horizontal, you control the vertical, you can do anything you want.
[37:24.220 --> 37:32.890]  [SPEAKER_20]: And they had access to all of the central office switching locations in California through control of the minis.
[37:34.280 --> 37:48.720]  [SPEAKER_20]: Basically, the big telephone switches are controlled by minicomputers, and the minicomputers had dial-ups that were protected just by passwords, which is incredibly, I mean, you probably have discussed this ad nauseam on the show, but, I mean, it's bad security.
[37:49.410 --> 37:53.760]  [SPEAKER_20]: Apparently, they're using physical security now and callback stuff.
[37:54.000 --> 37:56.220]  [SPEAKER_20]: But even callback stuff is not perfect, if you can...
[37:56.220 --> 37:56.700]  [SPEAKER_31]: No, it's not.
[37:56.850 --> 37:58.660]  [SPEAKER_31]: It can be easily faked out.
[37:58.930 --> 37:59.060]  [SPEAKER_20]: Yeah.
[37:59.390 --> 38:00.120]  [SPEAKER_31]: Tell me something.
[38:00.350 --> 38:06.740]  [SPEAKER_31]: If Kevin Mitnick picked up this paper and saw his picture in it, what do you think his reaction would be about now?
[38:08.880 --> 38:09.640]  [SPEAKER_20]: I don't know.
[38:09.870 --> 38:12.330]  [SPEAKER_20]: I suppose it depends on what Kevin's been doing.
[38:13.480 --> 38:20.280]  [SPEAKER_20]: And, you know, since I haven't talked to Kevin, although I made an effort to, you know, I don't know what his reaction is.
[38:22.020 --> 38:31.020]  [SPEAKER_20]: You know, if he's doing the things the FBI alleges he's doing, I mean, you know, I could see Kevin just taking off and trying to live as a fugitive underground.
[38:32.900 --> 38:42.000]  [SPEAKER_20]: And I, you know, given the fact that the FBI was after him, I think that might be, you know, and the fact that he's been in prison twice and probably doesn't want to go back to prison.
[38:42.200 --> 38:46.870]  [SPEAKER_31]: Well, especially because when he was in prison, he was put in solitary confinement for a few months.
[38:47.040 --> 38:47.220]  [SPEAKER_20]: Yeah.
[38:47.620 --> 38:50.430]  [SPEAKER_31]: Simply because they were afraid to have him anywhere near a telephone.
[38:51.280 --> 38:54.430]  [SPEAKER_31]: Do you think that is a rational way of dealing with this?
[38:54.480 --> 39:02.370]  [SPEAKER_20]: I think that's an irrational fear on the part of, you know, I mean, many people are mystified and frightened of technology.
[39:03.100 --> 39:08.260]  [SPEAKER_20]: And a person like Kevin sort of strikes fear into a lot of people's hearts.
[39:09.910 --> 39:17.020]  [SPEAKER_20]: On the other hand, you know, I'm sympathetic with Kevin up to a point.
[39:17.220 --> 39:27.930]  [SPEAKER_20]: But, you know, you reach a point where, I mean, I just feel he has no business going into the computers of these cell phone manufacturers if he's doing that.
[39:28.840 --> 39:32.460]  [SPEAKER_20]: If he's crossed that line, I basically don't think he should be out and running around.
[39:33.810 --> 39:38.660]  [SPEAKER_20]: He's not, you know, he's not sort of being a productive member of society.
[39:39.830 --> 39:46.980]  [SPEAKER_20]: If he hasn't, you know, and there's no proof that he's done that, then it's a fugitive case and he's a probation violator.
[39:47.060 --> 39:49.330]  [SPEAKER_20]: That's a very different question.
[39:49.740 --> 40:01.020]  [SPEAKER_31]: As far as I know, that at least in Chicago, that was the only thing that I could get a straight answer on from the FBI as to what it was he was wanted for, violating probation, not being in a certain place at a certain time.
[40:02.020 --> 40:15.540]  [SPEAKER_31]: As for the rest of it, it can be rather difficult to, even though we're innocent until proven guilty, it can be kind of difficult to say that you're not responsible for a particular computer crime when someone says that you are.
[40:15.780 --> 40:20.800]  [SPEAKER_31]: It's very, the evidence is kind of easy to fabricate or to misinterpret.
[40:22.780 --> 40:24.120]  [SPEAKER_31]: It has happened before.
[40:24.350 --> 40:35.460]  [SPEAKER_20]: The point that we're treating Kevin unfairly, that he's innocent until proven guilty, and that he shouldn't be under this kind of scrutiny.
[40:37.000 --> 40:42.060]  [SPEAKER_31]: Well, it seems like he's under a tremendous amount of scrutiny, just from having his picture there and all that.
[40:42.220 --> 40:45.040]  [SPEAKER_20]: Yeah, and I mean, I agree with you.
[40:45.850 --> 40:54.520]  [SPEAKER_20]: However, I didn't make the decision to write about him until I spent a day with a cell phone company and went over in great detail what had happened.
[40:55.720 --> 41:09.040]  [SPEAKER_20]: That, coupled with hearing from the FBI agents and hearing what they were looking for, and just sort of knowing Kevin's M.O., made me feel that this was something that was out of the usual.
[41:09.280 --> 41:10.640]  [SPEAKER_20]: I mean, I try not to cover
[41:16.390 --> 41:17.810]  [SPEAKER_20]: every computer break-in.
[41:17.810 --> 41:21.830]  [SPEAKER_20]: I mean, I don't want to be on the computer cop beat.
[41:23.100 --> 41:28.740]  [SPEAKER_20]: But there are some things that I think sort of stand out because of just the boldness of the action.
[41:28.930 --> 41:31.430]  [SPEAKER_20]: I mean, you know, in some senses, I'm in awe of Kevin.
[41:32.370 --> 41:42.660]  [SPEAKER_20]: If, in fact, he's doing this, the persistence that he's shown and the sort of the daring and the skills really sort of are not, you know, this is not garden variety computing hacking.
[41:43.000 --> 41:44.100]  [SPEAKER_20]: This is something else.
[41:44.240 --> 41:47.140]  [SPEAKER_20]: And that's, I think, why it merits the intention of the newspaper.
[41:47.140 --> 41:47.660]  [SPEAKER_31]: I agree.
[41:47.870 --> 41:49.060]  [SPEAKER_31]: I mean, it does merit attention.
[41:49.350 --> 42:02.060]  [SPEAKER_31]: What concerns me is that we don't seem to be focusing the same eye on things like the FBI, on the cellular companies, when something that might embarrass them, it's...
[42:02.060 --> 42:05.430]  [SPEAKER_31]: we kind of avoid the topic and just move on to something else.
[42:05.960 --> 42:09.520]  [SPEAKER_20]: You know, I think I have to agree with you.
[42:09.560 --> 42:10.910]  [SPEAKER_20]: I think it was probably...
[42:11.960 --> 42:17.660]  [SPEAKER_20]: it was disappointing to me that the details about the CFP thing were not in the story.
[42:18.640 --> 42:22.480]  [SPEAKER_20]: However, you know, I don't try to play just one side of the street.
[42:22.600 --> 42:29.390]  [SPEAKER_20]: I mean, I don't know if you talked about it, but when I found out that there was a flaw in the clipper chip, I wrote about it.
[42:29.450 --> 42:32.040]  [SPEAKER_20]: The paper played that, also played that story very prominently.
[42:33.540 --> 42:34.870]  [SPEAKER_20]: You know, and I...
[42:34.870 --> 42:39.520]  [SPEAKER_20]: in that case, I was surprised by the play, but it's an important political issue.
[42:41.930 --> 42:47.480]  [SPEAKER_20]: You know, the paper makes those decisions, and, you know, I agree with you.
[42:47.890 --> 42:54.410]  [SPEAKER_20]: Where the piece plays in the newspaper is almost, in some cases, more important than what it says.
[42:56.240 --> 42:58.310]  [SPEAKER_20]: And that's something I don't have any control over.
[42:58.950 --> 42:59.140]  [SPEAKER_31]: Yeah.
[42:59.620 --> 43:05.180]  [SPEAKER_31]: I mean, you're getting calls now for America's Most Wanted, and, I mean, where do you think the story's going to go now?
[43:05.410 --> 43:16.240]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, it's already been picked up by the Times of London, and BBC is working on their version of the story, and, you know, I mean, this society has always had a fascination with outlaws.
[43:17.940 --> 43:22.520]  [SPEAKER_20]: And, you know, most outlaws today are pretty depressing people.
[43:22.720 --> 43:26.410]  [SPEAKER_20]: I mean, you know, look at the kind of serial killing stuff we go on.
[43:26.600 --> 43:28.080]  [SPEAKER_20]: We go on and focus on.
[43:28.220 --> 43:33.240]  [SPEAKER_20]: I mean, you know, look at what's on television today, and here you find a person who hasn't killed anybody.
[43:33.700 --> 43:38.240]  [SPEAKER_20]: You know, I mean, he's almost... you could almost construe him as a Robin Hood kind of figure.
[43:39.160 --> 43:46.240]  [SPEAKER_20]: And, you know, this is a society without a lot of romance, and here's someone who's really sort of acting out a lot of people's fantasies.
[43:47.600 --> 43:53.520]  [SPEAKER_20]: So, I mean, if you asked me sort of why it catches the fancy, why it gets more attention than other things, I think that's why.
[43:54.480 --> 43:57.200]  [SPEAKER_31]: What is he actually facing if he is...
[43:57.200 --> 44:06.040]  [SPEAKER_20]: Man, well, you know, I haven't explored this, but I was wondering, you know, California has this three strikes law that's going into effect.
[44:06.040 --> 44:09.380]  [SPEAKER_20]: I think that he doesn't fall under that, but it's not impossible.
[44:09.540 --> 44:10.720]  [SPEAKER_20]: You know, he's been in prison twice.
[44:11.540 --> 44:13.200]  [SPEAKER_31]: You're saying he could be facing life?
[44:13.200 --> 44:14.860]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, I don't think so.
[44:15.020 --> 44:18.500]  [SPEAKER_20]: I think that deals only with violent crime.
[44:20.000 --> 44:21.480]  [SPEAKER_20]: But, you know, they're mandatory.
[44:21.660 --> 44:24.500]  [SPEAKER_20]: Now, if it's just parole violation, I don't think it's a serious...
[44:24.500 --> 44:27.920]  [SPEAKER_20]: I mean, I don't think he'll do some jail time, but it won't be years and years.
[44:28.140 --> 44:30.440]  [SPEAKER_20]: But this DMV thing could be a huge problem.
[44:32.700 --> 44:39.700]  [SPEAKER_20]: You know, those are five to ten year kind of prison terms that you can face for that kind of stuff.
[44:39.920 --> 44:40.200]  [SPEAKER_31]: Uh-huh.
[44:41.040 --> 44:43.120]  [SPEAKER_31]: We're speaking with John Markoff from the New York Times.
[44:43.520 --> 44:46.160]  [SPEAKER_31]: John, do you have a couple of minutes to take some phone calls with us?
[44:46.240 --> 44:46.440]  [SPEAKER_31]: Sure.
[44:46.760 --> 44:46.980]  [SPEAKER_31]: Okay.
[44:47.220 --> 44:49.880]  [SPEAKER_31]: Our phone number is 212-279-3400.
[44:50.240 --> 44:53.140]  [SPEAKER_31]: We ask that you try and stick to the subject.
[44:53.320 --> 44:54.920]  [SPEAKER_31]: I know there's a lot of things to talk about out there.
[44:55.160 --> 45:03.240]  [SPEAKER_31]: We were going to talk about the Star-77 feature this week, but due to all these things that have been happening, we're going to do that next week.
[45:04.260 --> 45:06.860]  [SPEAKER_31]: Star-77 is a new feature that the phone company will be offering.
[45:06.940 --> 45:10.420]  [SPEAKER_31]: That's all we're going to say, because otherwise we'll have to keep talking about it.
[45:11.500 --> 45:13.160]  [SPEAKER_31]: 212-279-3400.
[45:13.220 --> 45:14.520]  [SPEAKER_31]: The program is off the hook.
[45:14.980 --> 45:15.640]  [SPEAKER_31]: Good evening.
[45:15.760 --> 45:16.240]  [SPEAKER_31]: You're on the radio.
[45:17.300 --> 45:17.480]  [SPEAKER_19]: Hello?
[45:17.760 --> 45:18.380]  [SPEAKER_31]: Yes, go ahead.
[45:19.040 --> 45:23.380]  [SPEAKER_19]: Yes, I know this is kind of off the topic, but I...
[45:23.380 --> 45:24.280]  [SPEAKER_31]: What did I ask?
[45:24.300 --> 45:25.300]  [SPEAKER_31]: The first thing...
[45:25.300 --> 45:25.920]  [SPEAKER_31]: All right, go ahead.
[45:26.000 --> 45:26.280]  [SPEAKER_31]: Go ahead.
[45:26.740 --> 45:27.500]  [SPEAKER_19]: I know.
[45:27.700 --> 45:32.580]  [SPEAKER_19]: I was wondering if you guys knew of any Internet boards that provide free access.
[45:32.700 --> 45:35.820]  [SPEAKER_19]: I know there's one in Illinois, but that's kind of far free here.
[45:37.140 --> 45:38.020]  [SPEAKER_31]: Free access?
[45:38.440 --> 45:39.460]  [SPEAKER_19]: Or cheap?
[45:40.280 --> 45:50.860]  [SPEAKER_31]: Well, there are a lot of boards in New York that offer fairly inexpensive, and we've talked about that in the past, and there's also universities, which you can get for simply the cost of a class.
[45:52.860 --> 45:55.780]  [SPEAKER_31]: But, I mean, this is something that we deal with on an ongoing basis.
[45:56.700 --> 45:59.200]  [SPEAKER_31]: We have to present a list of different things to you.
[46:00.100 --> 46:02.560]  [SPEAKER_19]: So there are no boards around here that provide it for free?
[46:03.240 --> 46:04.240]  [SPEAKER_31]: Not that I know of.
[46:04.300 --> 46:07.000]  [SPEAKER_31]: If I find out something to the contrary, I will let everybody know.
[46:07.680 --> 46:08.020]  [SPEAKER_19]: Okay.
[46:08.320 --> 46:08.580]  [SPEAKER_19]: All right?
[46:08.760 --> 46:09.260]  [SPEAKER_19]: Thanks a lot.
[46:09.700 --> 46:10.440]  [SPEAKER_19]: One other thing.
[46:10.580 --> 46:13.320]  [SPEAKER_19]: I just asked if the summer edition of 2600 is out, yeah?
[46:13.320 --> 46:14.000]  [SPEAKER_31]: Yes, it's out.
[46:14.100 --> 46:15.140]  [SPEAKER_31]: It got sent to subscribers.
[46:15.300 --> 46:16.840]  [SPEAKER_31]: It should be in bookstores real soon.
[46:17.080 --> 46:17.920]  [SPEAKER_31]: Okay, thanks a lot.
[46:18.040 --> 46:18.260]  [SPEAKER_31]: Okay.
[46:19.900 --> 46:20.440]  [SPEAKER_31]: Good evening.
[46:20.500 --> 46:20.880]  [SPEAKER_31]: You're on the air.
[46:21.780 --> 46:23.760]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, I was wondering...
[46:24.380 --> 46:25.340]  [SPEAKER_13]: I'm on the air right now?
[46:25.460 --> 46:25.980]  [SPEAKER_31]: Yes, go ahead.
[46:26.260 --> 46:32.700]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, I have a scanner, and I pick up cellular telephone.
[46:33.540 --> 46:36.220]  [SPEAKER_13]: And I was wondering, is that illegal or illegal?
[46:36.940 --> 46:39.580]  [SPEAKER_31]: Well, actually, John, maybe you can answer this better than me.
[46:40.140 --> 46:41.140]  [SPEAKER_20]: I believe it's illegal.
[46:41.300 --> 46:43.240]  [SPEAKER_20]: I can't cite the law to you, but...
[46:43.240 --> 46:47.200]  [SPEAKER_31]: Is it illegal to have the scanner, or is it illegal to turn it on, or to listen, or what?
[46:47.340 --> 46:50.040]  [SPEAKER_20]: It is illegal to use the scanner.
[46:50.260 --> 46:52.600]  [SPEAKER_20]: I believe it's also illegal to have the scanner.
[46:54.620 --> 46:57.060]  [SPEAKER_20]: I can't cite the law for you at the moment, though.
[46:57.320 --> 46:58.680]  [SPEAKER_13]: Right, because I had one.
[46:58.800 --> 47:00.400]  [SPEAKER_13]: I had a chip taken out of it.
[47:00.580 --> 47:03.460]  [SPEAKER_13]: I had the radio modified, and it picks up the whole band.
[47:04.200 --> 47:08.580]  [SPEAKER_13]: And now I have a portable that I just bought a couple of weeks ago.
[47:08.920 --> 47:12.780]  [SPEAKER_13]: And I noticed that they expanded the band, the coverage on the cellular phone.
[47:13.020 --> 47:14.440]  [SPEAKER_13]: And it also picks it up.
[47:14.580 --> 47:15.820]  [SPEAKER_31]: Well, what do you mean they've expanded it?
[47:16.160 --> 47:22.300]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, since years ago, the 800 band is a lot wider than it used to be.
[47:22.600 --> 47:23.480]  [SPEAKER_31]: Well, how wide does it go?
[47:23.940 --> 47:25.580]  [SPEAKER_13]: Oh, well, a couple of...
[47:26.340 --> 47:28.860]  [SPEAKER_13]: They added a lot of extra channels on it, I noticed.
[47:29.560 --> 47:34.440]  [SPEAKER_13]: You know, it went from 840 MHz all the way up to...
[47:34.440 --> 47:36.520]  [SPEAKER_13]: Now it goes all the way up to, I think, 912.
[47:37.280 --> 47:39.100]  [SPEAKER_13]: And it used to go up to 860.
[47:40.220 --> 47:42.680]  [SPEAKER_13]: And they used to put a blockout chip on the scanner.
[47:43.000 --> 47:45.780]  [SPEAKER_13]: And that's how it would pick it up.
[47:45.900 --> 47:50.260]  [SPEAKER_31]: Well, I know there are going to be a lot more cellular frequencies at some point in the future.
[47:50.380 --> 47:52.220]  [SPEAKER_31]: John, I know you've been writing on that.
[47:52.740 --> 47:55.060]  [SPEAKER_31]: Or, I know your paper isn't writing on that anyway.
[47:55.280 --> 47:58.520]  [SPEAKER_31]: New allocations by the FCC for personal communication services.
[47:58.880 --> 47:59.580]  [SPEAKER_20]: Digital stuff.
[47:59.760 --> 48:00.560]  [SPEAKER_20]: I mean, most of the...
[48:01.040 --> 48:04.520]  [SPEAKER_20]: What's happening is most of the stuff is going to go digital over the next half decade.
[48:04.740 --> 48:07.120]  [SPEAKER_20]: And the digital stuff will be somewhat harder to listen to.
[48:07.180 --> 48:08.700]  [SPEAKER_20]: You won't be able to use a standard scanner.
[48:10.180 --> 48:12.180]  [SPEAKER_31]: And also, it will be cheaper for consumers, right?
[48:12.960 --> 48:15.700]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, some of these new technologies will be very cheap.
[48:15.800 --> 48:16.200]  [SPEAKER_20]: That's true.
[48:18.100 --> 48:20.140]  [SPEAKER_20]: Although, it doesn't seem like it's happening very quickly, does it?
[48:20.260 --> 48:20.840]  [SPEAKER_31]: No, it doesn't.
[48:21.200 --> 48:23.740]  [SPEAKER_31]: But I'm sure it'll happen before the end of this century.
[48:24.680 --> 48:26.120]  [SPEAKER_20]: And yours in my lifetime, maybe.
[48:26.520 --> 48:27.300]  [SPEAKER_31]: Okay, thanks for the call.
[48:27.340 --> 48:29.100]  [SPEAKER_31]: Let's go on to some other calls.
[48:29.120 --> 48:29.420]  [SPEAKER_31]: Good evening.
[48:29.540 --> 48:29.880]  [SPEAKER_31]: You're on the air.
[48:31.680 --> 48:32.400]  [SPEAKER_31]: Hello, speak up.
[48:32.660 --> 48:33.000]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yeah, hello.
[48:33.120 --> 48:34.080]  [SPEAKER_16]: I need to turn on my radio.
[48:34.220 --> 48:34.480]  [SPEAKER_31]: Okay.
[48:34.480 --> 48:36.800]  [SPEAKER_16]: Two things about that scanner situation.
[48:37.280 --> 48:40.720]  [SPEAKER_16]: It's not illegal to have a scanner made before a certain date.
[48:40.860 --> 48:45.240]  [SPEAKER_16]: But it is against the law to listen to the cellular frequencies.
[48:45.480 --> 48:47.440]  [SPEAKER_16]: Because you're violating the Privacy Act.
[48:48.040 --> 48:48.520]  [SPEAKER_31]: Okay.
[48:48.760 --> 48:51.580]  [SPEAKER_31]: I mean, is there anybody here that does not think that's rather silly?
[48:51.760 --> 48:52.640]  [SPEAKER_16]: I think it's silly.
[48:52.720 --> 48:53.460]  [SPEAKER_16]: I'm a ham operator.
[48:53.640 --> 49:00.520]  [SPEAKER_16]: I think that saying, taking a radio like the R7000, and now you can't buy it anymore.
[49:00.700 --> 49:01.960]  [SPEAKER_16]: You're quoting a black market.
[49:02.080 --> 49:03.860]  [SPEAKER_16]: Why do these scanners now have doubled in price?
[49:04.290 --> 49:05.920]  [SPEAKER_16]: You will never be able to stop it.
[49:06.840 --> 49:12.420]  [SPEAKER_16]: The responsibility should be on the manufacturers to do whatever they have to do to secure their system.
[49:12.760 --> 49:16.380]  [SPEAKER_16]: The manufacturers are doing this not because they think it's going to help anything.
[49:16.880 --> 49:19.680]  [SPEAKER_16]: My belief, they're doing it because they think it's a selling point.
[49:20.480 --> 49:23.760]  [SPEAKER_31]: Are you talking about the scanner manufacturers or the cellular manufacturers?
[49:24.020 --> 49:26.900]  [SPEAKER_16]: Scanner manufacturers, of course they want to sell scanners.
[49:27.280 --> 49:28.160]  [SPEAKER_16]: You can get them ordered.
[49:28.580 --> 49:32.240]  [SPEAKER_16]: Now what else to listen to on a scanner, except for the police and a couple other things.
[49:32.240 --> 49:34.660]  [SPEAKER_16]: In the next five years, it'll all be digital anyway.
[49:34.780 --> 49:42.160]  [SPEAKER_16]: The only reason why this EPA thing was brought about, it was because the cellular manufacturers had more clout than anybody else.
[49:42.340 --> 49:53.540]  [SPEAKER_16]: And the last comment I'd like to make was, you were discussing the technology that this other gentleman in California said, the technology for the new telephones won't be able to be copied.
[49:53.540 --> 49:54.520]  [SPEAKER_16]: That's incorrect.
[49:55.180 --> 50:02.180]  [SPEAKER_16]: Anything that's manufactured by one manufacturer will be figured out, just like in the video game business or any other electronics.
[50:02.360 --> 50:06.820]  [SPEAKER_16]: I haven't found hardware yet that has been protected because of the custom chip.
[50:07.300 --> 50:09.260]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, no, I agree with you.
[50:10.580 --> 50:12.800]  [SPEAKER_20]: It's a question of what it will cost.
[50:12.980 --> 50:20.980]  [SPEAKER_20]: I mean, technically it's certainly possible, but when you're talking about BLSI semiconductors, the investment you have to make to reverse engineer it is significant.
[50:21.240 --> 50:23.660]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, yeah, but if you understand what's happening, you don't have to.
[50:23.900 --> 50:25.420]  [SPEAKER_16]: You can use a lot more chips.
[50:25.720 --> 50:37.800]  [SPEAKER_16]: There are, in the video game business, where they come out with special LSI chips, then they use regular chips that just build up enough digital block to do the function of an LSI.
[50:38.020 --> 50:44.520]  [SPEAKER_16]: If there is a market for it, if there's a demand for a product, then somebody's going to manufacture it.
[50:44.720 --> 50:46.380]  [SPEAKER_16]: Just like they want to stop cigarette smoking.
[50:47.220 --> 50:53.360]  [SPEAKER_16]: If the government says you can't do this, then somebody's going to come up with that product to do it because there'll be a market for it.
[50:53.540 --> 50:54.520]  [SPEAKER_16]: Just like in booze.
[50:54.900 --> 50:57.700]  [SPEAKER_16]: The government should stop telling people what they can and cannot do.
[50:57.920 --> 50:59.840]  [SPEAKER_31]: That seems to be a theme we keep going back to.
[50:59.960 --> 51:00.540]  [SPEAKER_31]: Thanks for the call.
[51:01.060 --> 51:01.400]  [SPEAKER_20]: Good night.
[51:02.920 --> 51:03.820]  [SPEAKER_31]: Any comments, John?
[51:04.440 --> 51:06.580]  [SPEAKER_20]: No, basically, in principle, I agree with him.
[51:06.680 --> 51:09.000]  [SPEAKER_20]: I mean, you know, the clipper is a classic example.
[51:10.360 --> 51:18.040]  [SPEAKER_20]: The incentive there would be very high, either whether it's on principle or for economic reasons to reverse-engineer it, but it would be very expensive.
[51:18.780 --> 51:20.300]  [SPEAKER_20]: A government could certainly do it.
[51:21.000 --> 51:23.340]  [SPEAKER_20]: Probably a large Japanese corporation could do it.
[51:24.300 --> 51:27.100]  [SPEAKER_20]: But, you know, it's not cheap.
[51:27.340 --> 51:28.520]  [SPEAKER_20]: It doesn't come for free.
[51:28.700 --> 51:30.800]  [SPEAKER_20]: I mean, you know, you need electron microscopes.
[51:30.840 --> 51:34.120]  [SPEAKER_20]: You need all kinds of technology to tackle these tasks.
[51:34.860 --> 51:36.840]  [SPEAKER_31]: Okay, let's see if we can fit in some more phone calls.
[51:37.060 --> 51:37.380]  [SPEAKER_31]: Good evening.
[51:37.460 --> 51:37.860]  [SPEAKER_31]: You're on the air.
[51:39.520 --> 51:39.880]  [SPEAKER_31]: Hello?
[51:40.060 --> 51:40.320]  [SPEAKER_31]: Go ahead.
[51:41.420 --> 51:44.520]  [SPEAKER_15]: I just wanted to make a comment about Kevin Mitnick's story.
[51:44.680 --> 51:44.980]  [SPEAKER_31]: Go ahead.
[51:46.480 --> 52:01.320]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, my first impression when I read it was like the old joke, you know, Generalissimo Francisco Franco is still dead, that there was no real news story, and that, you know, it must have been a light news day, and they needed some filler stories.
[52:01.320 --> 52:08.940]  [SPEAKER_15]: But also, along with Katie Hafner, John Markoff wrote the cyberpunk book.
[52:09.320 --> 52:11.240]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yes, you're aware of that, aren't you, John?
[52:11.480 --> 52:12.340]  [SPEAKER_15]: I remember.
[52:12.580 --> 52:12.840]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay.
[52:13.120 --> 52:23.080]  [SPEAKER_15]: But Kevin Mitnick, in the 2600 issue, I think, summer issue, Kevin Mitnick, like, said that it wasn't really a true story.
[52:24.800 --> 52:38.120]  [SPEAKER_31]: Well, I know Kevin has taken exception to a lot of what has been said about him, various things, including him changing people's phone numbers or creating fake press releases, things like that.
[52:38.120 --> 52:40.280]  [SPEAKER_31]: He says that that was never actually what happened.
[52:41.360 --> 52:53.200]  [SPEAKER_31]: The one disadvantage to the story, of course, and it's not John's fault, but we don't really get to hear Kevin's side of the story because Kevin is, in fact, on the run, and nobody knows how to get a hold of him.
[52:53.300 --> 52:54.320]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, maybe he'll be at Hope.
[52:54.840 --> 52:55.200]  Yeah.
[52:55.380 --> 53:07.420]  [SPEAKER_31]: Well, you know, it's funny because at one point I had talked to him about that, and he did express an interest in going, but he realized that that would probably not happen, although the way the FBI operates, he would probably have to walk up to them,
[53:07.740 --> 53:14.080]  [SPEAKER_31]: introduce himself, show ID to prove it was him, and explain to them exactly why he was wanted before they would actually take him into custody.
[53:15.320 --> 53:15.680]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah.
[53:15.960 --> 53:16.120]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah.
[53:16.620 --> 53:16.840]  [SPEAKER_31]: Bye.
[53:17.160 --> 53:17.600]  [SPEAKER_31]: All right.
[53:17.680 --> 53:18.160]  [SPEAKER_31]: Thanks for calling.
[53:18.520 --> 53:18.760]  [SPEAKER_15]: Adios.
[53:20.600 --> 53:26.700]  [SPEAKER_31]: That whole CFP thing, though, was historical as far as bungled operations.
[53:26.720 --> 53:31.720]  [SPEAKER_31]: It's a shame, really, that that couldn't be shared a little bit more often because it really is quite a story.
[53:33.140 --> 53:33.740]  [SPEAKER_13]: I agree.
[53:33.940 --> 53:37.060]  [SPEAKER_31]: I'm sure we'll have some survivors of that at Hope as well.
[53:37.700 --> 53:38.220]  [SPEAKER_31]: Good evening.
[53:38.300 --> 53:38.740]  [SPEAKER_31]: You're on the radio.
[53:40.200 --> 53:40.760]  [SPEAKER_31]: Go ahead.
[53:41.580 --> 53:44.300]  [SPEAKER_31]: Everyone seems to be kind of in shock when I first put them on.
[53:44.660 --> 53:45.440]  [SPEAKER_31]: Oh, there you are.
[53:45.900 --> 53:46.340]  [SPEAKER_31]: Anybody there?
[53:46.640 --> 53:46.980]  [SPEAKER_31]: All right.
[53:47.020 --> 53:47.440]  [SPEAKER_31]: No one's there.
[53:47.500 --> 53:48.280]  [SPEAKER_31]: Let's go to the next line.
[53:48.700 --> 53:49.240]  [SPEAKER_31]: Good evening.
[53:49.400 --> 53:49.800]  [SPEAKER_31]: You're on the air.
[53:50.180 --> 53:50.340]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yes.
[53:50.420 --> 53:50.600]  [SPEAKER_14]: Hi.
[53:51.220 --> 53:52.460]  [SPEAKER_14]: Before you forget...
[53:52.460 --> 53:52.760]  [SPEAKER_31]: Yes.
[53:53.420 --> 53:54.780]  [SPEAKER_14]: What about Star 77?
[53:55.740 --> 53:58.640]  [SPEAKER_31]: Well, we were going to talk about that, but we're going to have to postpone that for next week.
[53:58.660 --> 53:58.940]  [SPEAKER_31]: Oh, man.
[53:58.960 --> 54:00.680]  [SPEAKER_14]: You left us hanging for a whole week.
[54:00.760 --> 54:01.400]  [SPEAKER_31]: Yeah, I know.
[54:01.500 --> 54:01.840]  [SPEAKER_31]: I know.
[54:02.260 --> 54:03.520]  [SPEAKER_14]: And it doesn't work yet.
[54:03.780 --> 54:04.920]  [SPEAKER_31]: No, that's just it.
[54:04.920 --> 54:05.460]  [SPEAKER_31]: It doesn't work.
[54:05.460 --> 54:09.220]  [SPEAKER_31]: It doesn't do anything, so there's no point, really, in thinking about it right now.
[54:09.220 --> 54:10.600]  [SPEAKER_31]: But next week, we will tackle it.
[54:10.660 --> 54:10.980]  [SPEAKER_31]: I promise.
[54:11.120 --> 54:11.440]  [SPEAKER_31]: Promise?
[54:11.860 --> 54:12.420]  [SPEAKER_31]: Promise, yes.
[54:12.420 --> 54:12.700]  [SPEAKER_31]: Okay.
[54:13.060 --> 54:13.340]  [SPEAKER_31]: Okay?
[54:13.500 --> 54:13.860]  [SPEAKER_22]: Okay.
[54:14.200 --> 54:14.520]  [SPEAKER_31]: All right.
[54:14.600 --> 54:14.860]  [SPEAKER_31]: Take care.
[54:15.660 --> 54:17.720]  [SPEAKER_31]: I hate disappointing people like that, but then again...
[54:17.720 --> 54:18.540]  [SPEAKER_31]: A little following.
[54:18.760 --> 54:19.520]  [SPEAKER_31]: Yeah, yeah.
[54:20.160 --> 54:23.280]  [SPEAKER_31]: Then again, you know, I kind of like disappointing people sometimes.
[54:24.140 --> 54:24.540]  [SPEAKER_31]: Good evening.
[54:24.620 --> 54:25.000]  [SPEAKER_31]: You're on the air.
[54:25.380 --> 54:26.540]  [SPEAKER_17]: Manuel, Milo Fondel.
[54:26.780 --> 54:27.540]  [SPEAKER_31]: Hi, how are you?
[54:27.700 --> 54:27.900]  [SPEAKER_31]: Good.
[54:27.960 --> 54:28.280]  [SPEAKER_31]: How are you?
[54:28.360 --> 54:29.380]  [SPEAKER_31]: Phone freak of the past.
[54:29.880 --> 54:30.240]  [SPEAKER_17]: Yeah.
[54:30.480 --> 54:31.720]  [SPEAKER_17]: Well, I keep creeping up, don't I?
[54:31.740 --> 54:33.460]  [SPEAKER_31]: I'm sure you read John Markoff's articles a lot.
[54:33.740 --> 54:35.840]  [SPEAKER_17]: Uh, yeah, with mixed interest.
[54:35.840 --> 54:36.360]  [SPEAKER_31]: Okay.
[54:37.520 --> 54:41.620]  [SPEAKER_17]: Listen, I understand David Jampson's going to play Kevin Mitnick in the upcoming Kevin Mitnick story.
[54:41.760 --> 54:42.340]  [SPEAKER_31]: Is that right?
[54:42.860 --> 54:43.900]  [SPEAKER_31]: Well, that's...
[54:44.660 --> 54:47.980]  [SPEAKER_31]: That's going to be quite a TV movie, or is it a miniseries?
[54:48.280 --> 54:49.420]  [SPEAKER_17]: Uh, don't know.
[54:49.580 --> 54:51.120]  [SPEAKER_17]: I understand it's going to be serial.
[54:52.500 --> 54:54.360]  [SPEAKER_31]: No doubt Fox is first crack at it.
[54:54.680 --> 54:58.180]  [SPEAKER_17]: Do you have any info on anything about some hacking...
[54:59.060 --> 55:02.140]  [SPEAKER_17]: something or other problem I just read about on a board?
[55:03.520 --> 55:06.080]  [SPEAKER_17]: The name that comes up is Death Vegetable?
[55:06.880 --> 55:07.720]  [SPEAKER_31]: Death Vegetable?
[55:08.400 --> 55:11.240]  [SPEAKER_31]: You'll have to be a little bit more descriptive than that.
[55:11.400 --> 55:13.700]  [SPEAKER_17]: Well, that's apparently the fellow's handle.
[55:13.940 --> 55:16.940]  [SPEAKER_17]: Um, I understand he's supposed to be on TV tomorrow night, but...
[55:16.940 --> 55:17.640]  [SPEAKER_31]: Oh, okay, yes.
[55:17.740 --> 55:21.500]  [SPEAKER_31]: There is something tomorrow night on Dateline from, uh, somebody in Boston.
[55:21.500 --> 55:22.460]  [SPEAKER_31]: I was just up there.
[55:22.800 --> 55:24.960]  [SPEAKER_31]: And, yeah, uh, they did some interviews.
[55:25.340 --> 55:29.200]  [SPEAKER_31]: And from what I understand, they were a bit, um, uh, confrontational about it.
[55:29.240 --> 55:39.340]  [SPEAKER_31]: In other words, they brought up some things of this person's past, which weren't really relevant to the story and simply served to throw him off guard, uh, in that, you know, um, Geraldo style.
[55:39.620 --> 55:41.480]  [SPEAKER_31]: So, we'll just have to see how that turned out.
[55:41.580 --> 55:43.440]  [SPEAKER_31]: But, yeah, that's NBC tomorrow night at 10 o'clock.
[55:43.540 --> 55:44.100]  [SPEAKER_31]: I know that much.
[55:44.360 --> 55:45.020]  [SPEAKER_31]: Ah, okay.
[55:45.280 --> 55:45.580]  [SPEAKER_31]: All right?
[55:45.780 --> 55:45.960]  [SPEAKER_31]: Great.
[55:46.100 --> 55:46.560]  [SPEAKER_31]: Thanks a bunch.
[55:46.660 --> 55:46.860]  [SPEAKER_31]: Okay.
[55:47.120 --> 55:47.480]  [SPEAKER_31]: Take care.
[55:48.500 --> 55:49.980]  [SPEAKER_31]: It's always good when I have the answer, isn't it?
[55:50.160 --> 55:50.760]  [SPEAKER_31]: That's impressive.
[55:50.760 --> 55:51.500]  [SPEAKER_31]: All right.
[55:51.600 --> 55:52.960]  [SPEAKER_31]: Let's, uh, go on to another phone call.
[55:53.040 --> 55:53.260]  [SPEAKER_31]: Good evening.
[55:53.340 --> 55:53.700]  [SPEAKER_31]: You're on the air.
[55:54.160 --> 55:54.640]  [SPEAKER_18]: Hi, Manuel.
[55:54.780 --> 55:55.580]  [SPEAKER_18]: Great show, as always.
[55:55.760 --> 55:56.000]  [SPEAKER_31]: Thank you.
[55:56.460 --> 55:59.300]  [SPEAKER_18]: Um, just wondering, about, Cyberpunk was a wonderful book.
[55:59.500 --> 56:02.660]  [SPEAKER_18]: Um, just wondering, you, the author of it, I forget your name.
[56:03.040 --> 56:03.860]  [SPEAKER_20]: Uh, John Markoff.
[56:03.980 --> 56:05.540]  [SPEAKER_20]: And my co-author was Katie Hafner.
[56:05.880 --> 56:06.200]  [SPEAKER_18]: Yeah.
[56:06.340 --> 56:11.280]  [SPEAKER_18]: In that book, you always, you portrayed him sort of as, you know, more of an evil person.
[56:11.540 --> 56:15.120]  [SPEAKER_18]: I mean, I don't really want to say evil, but, I mean, you even called him a dark side hacker.
[56:15.340 --> 56:15.740]  [SPEAKER_18]: No, no.
[56:15.860 --> 56:16.160]  [SPEAKER_20]: No, no.
[56:16.180 --> 56:17.560]  [SPEAKER_20]: We never called him a dark side hacker.
[56:17.560 --> 56:20.760]  [SPEAKER_20]: We said that the Los Angeles newspapers called him a dark side hacker.
[56:20.760 --> 56:21.040]  [SPEAKER_20]: Oh, okay.
[56:21.180 --> 56:21.800]  [SPEAKER_20]: That's a difference.
[56:22.320 --> 56:23.960]  [SPEAKER_20]: And we didn't portray him as evil.
[56:25.600 --> 56:29.240]  [SPEAKER_20]: Um, you know, I, I think we were pretty, pretty straightforward.
[56:29.620 --> 56:30.360]  [SPEAKER_18]: I mean...
[56:30.360 --> 56:30.720]  [SPEAKER_18]: Yeah, yeah.
[56:30.780 --> 56:33.600]  [SPEAKER_18]: I mean, I'm not saying, I'm not saying anything bad or anything's wrong with it.
[56:33.660 --> 56:41.600]  [SPEAKER_18]: What I'm wondering is, you know, I mean, he seemed just like, um, just from what he did, a manipulative person, you know, from, from the stories that you got from your interviews.
[56:42.020 --> 56:42.280]  [SPEAKER_22]: Uh-huh.
[56:42.520 --> 56:46.940]  [SPEAKER_18]: Um, I was wondering if you ever met him, or Emmanuel, if you've ever met him, what kind of a person he really is.
[56:46.940 --> 56:48.260]  [SPEAKER_18]: Well, Emmanuel knows him better.
[56:48.420 --> 56:49.640]  [SPEAKER_18]: I've spoken with Kevin on the phone.
[56:51.240 --> 56:56.760]  [SPEAKER_31]: All right, me, uh, me, Rob from Hack-Tic, and, and Kevin hung out in Las Vegas once we all went gambling together.
[56:57.580 --> 57:02.520]  [SPEAKER_31]: I, I'll bet we had several agencies watching us then, and we actually came out with quite a bit of money after we went in.
[57:02.880 --> 57:04.720]  [SPEAKER_31]: Uh, and all, all legally, too.
[57:04.820 --> 57:05.480]  [SPEAKER_31]: I was just very lucky.
[57:05.720 --> 57:12.580]  [SPEAKER_31]: Um, but, no, he's, uh, he's actually, I found him to be a very nice person, uh, you know, a rather social person.
[57:13.140 --> 57:20.260]  [SPEAKER_31]: Um, I have not witnessed his, his hacking, uh, uh, side, but, um, I do know that he's a decent person.
[57:20.260 --> 57:22.140]  [SPEAKER_31]: He has a decent side to him, at least.
[57:22.380 --> 57:24.300]  [SPEAKER_31]: Uh, so, uh, that's, that's really all I can say.
[57:24.540 --> 57:24.700]  [SPEAKER_18]: Yeah.
[57:25.020 --> 57:29.780]  [SPEAKER_18]: I guess, well, you know, every story can become twisted between, you know, every, all the different sides of it.
[57:30.120 --> 57:32.660]  [SPEAKER_18]: Um, I really do wish we could have gotten Kevin's side on this one.
[57:32.660 --> 57:36.640]  [SPEAKER_31]: Yeah, well, you know, if, uh, if we hear from Kevin, we'll certainly try and get his side.
[57:37.040 --> 57:43.260]  [SPEAKER_31]: Um, and if he is, um, if he has picked up, uh, obviously, uh, we'll do everything possible to hear his side of the story then.
[57:43.500 --> 57:43.700]  [SPEAKER_18]: Yeah.
[57:44.360 --> 57:44.720]  [SPEAKER_18]: All right.
[57:44.820 --> 57:45.280]  [SPEAKER_18]: Well, thanks a lot.
[57:45.660 --> 57:46.380]  [SPEAKER_31]: Okay, take care.
[57:47.240 --> 57:52.220]  [SPEAKER_31]: Uh, now, John, you didn't actually, uh, speak with, uh, with Kevin, though, for the book, did you?
[57:52.720 --> 57:55.160]  [SPEAKER_20]: Uh, well, that's a good point.
[57:55.400 --> 57:57.240]  [SPEAKER_20]: Um, he refused to cooperate with us.
[57:57.420 --> 57:57.540]  [SPEAKER_25]: Uh-huh.
[58:00.500 --> 58:11.480]  [SPEAKER_20]: Um, and so we had to rely on Lenny DeCicco and, um, Susan Headley and Lewis De Payne, people who had, and Stephen Rhodes, people who had, uh, been friends of Kevin in the past.
[58:11.640 --> 58:14.100]  [SPEAKER_31]: In the past, though, then we're not friends with him at present.
[58:14.280 --> 58:19.440]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, it was, it was Lenny who turned Kevin in after Kevin had played this prank on him.
[58:19.640 --> 58:19.900]  [SPEAKER_31]: Right.
[58:20.000 --> 58:21.900]  [SPEAKER_31]: So they weren't exactly in the best of terms then.
[58:22.200 --> 58:22.860]  [SPEAKER_20]: That's fair.
[58:23.140 --> 58:23.340]  [SPEAKER_31]: Yeah.
[58:23.520 --> 58:26.320]  [SPEAKER_20]: So, I mean, uh, it's clearly a one-sided story.
[58:26.560 --> 58:26.680]  [SPEAKER_20]: Right.
[58:26.900 --> 58:31.480]  [SPEAKER_20]: I agreed, because Kevin wouldn't, wouldn't, uh, wouldn't spend time with us.
[58:31.740 --> 58:31.940]  [SPEAKER_25]: Uh-huh.
[58:32.180 --> 58:36.560]  [SPEAKER_20]: And there's not much you can do about that except you try to, you know, sort out the facts from the fiction.
[58:36.560 --> 58:37.600]  [SPEAKER_20]: And we did the best we could.
[58:38.620 --> 58:39.000]  [SPEAKER_31]: Uh-huh.
[58:39.440 --> 58:41.180]  [SPEAKER_31]: Okay, let's take one or two more phone calls.
[58:41.240 --> 58:41.520]  [SPEAKER_31]: Good evening.
[58:41.640 --> 58:41.860]  [SPEAKER_31]: You're on.
[58:42.340 --> 58:42.700]  [SPEAKER_07]: Hello.
[58:43.140 --> 58:47.000]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, I'm calling to ask you a question slightly off topic.
[58:47.320 --> 58:48.300]  [SPEAKER_31]: Okay, make it fast.
[58:48.480 --> 58:48.640]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.
[58:49.060 --> 58:56.920]  [SPEAKER_07]: On a scanner, police scanner, is it possible to listen to, uh, the, uh, studio transmitter link between AM stations and the transmitters?
[58:57.200 --> 59:04.420]  [SPEAKER_31]: Uh, well, studio transmitter links tend to be either phone lines or, uh, very, very high frequencies.
[59:04.540 --> 59:05.840]  [SPEAKER_31]: I believe microwave links.
[59:06.360 --> 59:08.700]  [SPEAKER_31]: Uh, standard scanner would not be able to get that.
[59:09.240 --> 59:13.000]  [SPEAKER_31]: Uh, there are, there are links of lower frequencies that you should be able to get.
[59:13.020 --> 59:15.340]  [SPEAKER_31]: I'm not 100% certain on this, because I've never actually tried that.
[59:15.600 --> 59:26.860]  [SPEAKER_31]: Uh, but if you, if you watch a TV station late at night, you'll see there's a certain hour, usually around five o'clock or so if they don't go off the air, uh, where they identify their studio transmitter link and the frequency of it.
[59:27.100 --> 59:30.120]  [SPEAKER_31]: Look at your scanner, see if it, if it receives that kind of a frequency.
[59:30.400 --> 59:39.960]  [SPEAKER_31]: I, I do know that your scanner will receive audio signals from a TV station, and of course, uh, if it receives, uh, FM transmissions, it'll just get the frequency as it is.
[59:40.400 --> 59:40.660]  [SPEAKER_31]: Uh-huh.
[59:40.920 --> 59:41.620]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay, thank you.
[59:41.760 --> 59:42.360]  [SPEAKER_31]: Okay, good luck.
[59:43.000 --> 59:44.420]  [SPEAKER_31]: I think we have time for one more call.
[59:44.520 --> 59:44.800]  [SPEAKER_31]: Good evening.
[59:46.620 --> 59:47.160]  [SPEAKER_31]: Go ahead.
[59:48.120 --> 59:48.480]  [SPEAKER_31]: Yeah.
[59:48.740 --> 59:50.680]  [SPEAKER_31]: Okay, sorry, you've got to speak faster than that.
[59:50.740 --> 59:51.040]  [SPEAKER_31]: Good evening.
[59:52.300 --> 59:54.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: Hi, is this still Emmanuel?
[59:54.420 --> 59:55.340]  [SPEAKER_31]: Yes, speak up, please.
[59:55.660 --> 59:56.460]  [SPEAKER_31]: Yeah, can you hear me?
[59:56.580 --> 59:57.140]  [SPEAKER_31]: Yes, go ahead.
[59:57.320 --> 01:00:08.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, I was wondering, Emmanuel, I didn't catch your program tonight, but if one wanted to send something out to California to a court system, what's your intelligent guess?
[01:00:08.300 --> 01:00:20.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: Would a judge open it, or would they, would a telegram be the only official way if you wish to send something and get it fast to someone like that, such a, you know, an official person like that?
[01:00:21.120 --> 01:00:22.260]  [SPEAKER_31]: An official person like what?
[01:00:22.420 --> 01:00:23.020]  [SPEAKER_31]: A judge.
[01:00:23.220 --> 01:00:25.100]  [SPEAKER_31]: You want to send something to a judge in California?
[01:00:25.120 --> 01:00:26.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: Or a judge goes to his court, though.
[01:00:26.960 --> 01:00:33.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: I would want to send it previous to their getting at the courthouse, but if I have to do it then, I would do it there, too.
[01:00:33.800 --> 01:00:35.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: Would that be something that...
[01:00:35.560 --> 01:00:37.840]  [SPEAKER_31]: Sounds like you have some insider knowledge of some sort there.
[01:00:38.060 --> 01:00:38.520]  [SPEAKER_06]: No, no, no.
[01:00:38.520 --> 01:00:42.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: I just want to write to that judge and tell her my opinion and do it in a brief way.
[01:00:43.200 --> 01:00:43.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh-huh.
[01:00:43.580 --> 01:00:47.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: I don't want it lost, and I don't want her not to open it, if you know what I'm saying.
[01:00:47.840 --> 01:00:49.340]  [SPEAKER_31]: Is this a judge we know about?
[01:00:49.780 --> 01:00:51.960]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, the lady that's sitting on the Simpson court.
[01:00:52.140 --> 01:00:52.660]  [SPEAKER_31]: I thought so.
[01:00:53.060 --> 01:00:56.000]  [SPEAKER_31]: Well, I don't really... I don't have her address or anything like that.
[01:00:56.440 --> 01:00:58.620]  [SPEAKER_31]: I don't know how to get a hold of her faster, probably.
[01:00:58.700 --> 01:01:00.180]  [SPEAKER_31]: I mean, the best way to do it, obviously...
[01:01:00.180 --> 01:01:12.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: If you wanted to give a message to someone that occupied, that's already going to make the decision overnight, so I would like to get it to the person before they make the decision, if you know what I'm which they're making tomorrow.
[01:01:12.780 --> 01:01:13.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: Exactly.
[01:01:13.320 --> 01:01:14.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: She's making it tonight.
[01:01:14.460 --> 01:01:16.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's already going to be a done deal in the morning.
[01:01:16.400 --> 01:01:18.420]  [SPEAKER_31]: Well, gosh, you know, if you know her name, give her a call.
[01:01:19.140 --> 01:01:21.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: How do you get someone's name like that, though?
[01:01:21.260 --> 01:01:24.560]  [SPEAKER_31]: Well, no, her name is pretty much out there, but I don't know if her number...
[01:01:24.560 --> 01:01:24.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: What would one do?
[01:01:24.980 --> 01:01:27.000]  [SPEAKER_06]: How would you get one's private home?
[01:01:27.740 --> 01:01:30.940]  [SPEAKER_31]: Well, maybe she has not thought to make her number unlisted.
[01:01:31.060 --> 01:01:43.120]  [SPEAKER_31]: You always have that possibility, so you basically figure the city where this is taking place, Los Angeles, 213 area code, you call information, ask for her by name, and maybe you'll get somebody, a relative, you ask them, hey, is so-and-so around?
[01:01:43.580 --> 01:01:45.000]  [SPEAKER_31]: I don't know, you might get lucky that way.
[01:01:45.580 --> 01:01:53.880]  [SPEAKER_31]: I don't know how you're going to get a message to this person before tomorrow, short of taking over a local TV station and broadcasting it yourself.
[01:01:54.320 --> 01:01:56.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: I knew you would think of something wild like that.
[01:01:56.700 --> 01:01:57.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: I can't do that.
[01:01:57.680 --> 01:01:59.640]  [SPEAKER_06]: Please don't do that, okay, because I'll probably get in trouble.
[01:02:00.280 --> 01:02:01.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: But you sure think big.
[01:02:02.600 --> 01:02:04.900]  [SPEAKER_25]: I thought of some other way, and I just want his address
[01:02:09.950 --> 01:02:10.770]  [SPEAKER_31]: Right, Phiber Optik.
[01:02:11.110 --> 01:02:12.670]  [SPEAKER_25]: Is he anything better with him?
[01:02:15.190 --> 01:02:18.610]  [SPEAKER_31]: He's still in prison, obviously, and he definitely could use some mail.
[01:02:18.850 --> 01:02:19.770]  [SPEAKER_06]: You don't have it handy.
[01:02:19.990 --> 01:02:22.870]  [SPEAKER_06]: I meant one time to ask you, because I never got to write to him.
[01:02:23.350 --> 01:02:25.090]  [SPEAKER_31]: Yeah, I can give you his address, actually.
[01:02:25.630 --> 01:02:27.310]  [SPEAKER_31]: He had a number and all that, right?
[01:02:27.650 --> 01:02:30.890]  [SPEAKER_31]: Yeah, but we are out of time, so I'm going to have to do that as we sign off, okay?
[01:02:31.150 --> 01:02:31.630]  [SPEAKER_31]: Oh, sure.
[01:02:31.810 --> 01:02:32.750]  [SPEAKER_31]: All right, so thanks for calling.
[01:02:32.810 --> 01:02:33.530]  [SPEAKER_31]: You can do it over the air.
[01:02:33.530 --> 01:02:34.150]  [SPEAKER_31]: Yes, I will.
[01:02:34.250 --> 01:02:34.430]  [SPEAKER_31]: Thanks.
[01:02:34.710 --> 01:02:34.930]  [SPEAKER_31]: Okay.
[01:02:35.630 --> 01:02:43.710]  [SPEAKER_31]: John, I just want to take this time to thank you for showing up and for giving us feedback from your particular point of view.
[01:02:43.990 --> 01:02:44.970]  [SPEAKER_24]: Thanks for having me, Emmanuel.
[01:02:45.290 --> 01:02:45.650]  [SPEAKER_31]: Okay.
[01:02:47.150 --> 01:02:49.550]  [SPEAKER_31]: I'm looking for Mark's address here.
[01:02:50.450 --> 01:02:58.090]  [SPEAKER_31]: Basically, fiber optic, you can write to him by writing to Mark Abene, A-B-E-N-E.
[01:02:59.030 --> 01:03:14.350]  [SPEAKER_31]: And his address is Mark Abene, 3-2-1-0-9-0-5-4, and that's F-P-C, as in Federal Prison Camp, School Kill, S-C-H-U-Y-L-K-I-L-L, Unit 1, P.O.
[01:03:14.410 --> 01:03:19.250]  [SPEAKER_31]: Box 670, Minersville, Pennsylvania, 1-7-9-5-4.
[01:03:19.450 --> 01:03:20.650]  [SPEAKER_31]: That's our show for tonight.
[01:03:20.650 --> 01:03:21.950]  [SPEAKER_31]: Thanks very much for tuning in.
[01:03:22.090 --> 01:03:23.570]  [SPEAKER_31]: We'll be back again next week.
[01:03:23.710 --> 01:03:23.990]  [SPEAKER_31]: Good night.