Off The Hook - 1994-08-03

[00:02.750 --> 00:05.550]  [SPEAKER_08]: I don't know what... Are they playing music behind themselves?
[00:05.810 --> 00:05.890]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yes!
[00:06.990 --> 00:08.770]  [SPEAKER_08]: They got a whole thing going on.
[00:10.090 --> 00:11.050]  [SPEAKER_08]: They're doing everything.
[00:11.170 --> 00:11.830]  [SPEAKER_08]: Music and talk.
[00:12.850 --> 00:14.530]  [SPEAKER_08]: Mike, that's because you don't know what's happening.
[00:14.910 --> 00:15.730]  [SPEAKER_08]: You know what's happening?
[00:16.150 --> 00:17.310]  [SPEAKER_08]: Mike, watch me out on check.
[00:17.530 --> 00:22.110]  [SPEAKER_08]: Mike, you're in Alien 3 where the black guy was lecturing the guys...
[00:22.110 --> 00:22.970]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's like a black station.
[00:23.310 --> 00:23.870]  [SPEAKER_08]: I think so.
[00:24.270 --> 00:25.290]  [SPEAKER_08]: Howard don't know nothing.
[00:25.630 --> 00:27.010]  [SPEAKER_07]: Hey, we know how it's done.
[00:27.170 --> 00:28.550]  [SPEAKER_18]: Howard don't know nothing.
[00:29.290 --> 00:30.570]  [SPEAKER_18]: It's quite obvious.
[00:31.630 --> 00:32.910]  [SPEAKER_18]: That was Night Shift, Howard.
[00:33.990 --> 00:35.810]  [SPEAKER_18]: Thursday mornings from 3.30 a.m. till 6 a.m.
[00:38.930 --> 00:41.390]  [SPEAKER_18]: WBAI 99.5 FM.
[00:41.630 --> 00:42.750]  [SPEAKER_18]: Night Shift, Howard.
[00:42.990 --> 00:43.670]  [SPEAKER_18]: Get in touch.
[00:44.050 --> 00:44.630]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, yeah.
[00:44.750 --> 00:45.470]  [SPEAKER_08]: Hello, you're in the air.
[00:46.950 --> 00:47.970]  [SPEAKER_08]: Anyway, let's get on.
[00:48.290 --> 00:48.750]  [SPEAKER_08]: Are you ready?
[00:49.290 --> 00:50.370]  [SPEAKER_08]: I think I'm going to do another thing.
[00:50.490 --> 00:50.770]  [SPEAKER_08]: That's it.
[00:50.870 --> 00:51.110]  [SPEAKER_08]: All right.
[00:51.550 --> 00:52.770]  [SPEAKER_08]: I have no idea what that was.
[00:52.790 --> 00:53.590]  [SPEAKER_08]: I don't know what was going on.
[00:53.650 --> 00:54.210]  [SPEAKER_08]: It was entertaining.
[01:02.040 --> 01:03.160]  [SPEAKER_04]: Do you know what time it is?
[01:03.300 --> 01:05.260]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's 10 o'clock on a Wednesday night.
[01:05.540 --> 01:06.880]  [SPEAKER_04]: And that means it's time for Off the Hook.
[01:13.090 --> 01:15.110]  [SPEAKER_10]: The telephone keeps ringing.
[01:15.550 --> 01:17.650]  [SPEAKER_10]: So I ripped it off the wall.
[01:18.590 --> 01:20.650]  [SPEAKER_10]: I cut myself while shaving.
[01:21.250 --> 01:23.210]  [SPEAKER_10]: Now I can't make a call.
[01:24.130 --> 01:26.030]  [SPEAKER_10]: It could be yet much worse.
[01:26.650 --> 01:28.630]  [SPEAKER_11]: But if they could, they would.
[01:28.850 --> 01:31.570]  [SPEAKER_11]: Bumbin' it, Bump, or the best expect from worst.
[01:32.110 --> 01:34.070]  [SPEAKER_11]: I hope that's understood.
[01:34.450 --> 01:35.190]  [SPEAKER_11]: Bumbin' it, Bump!
[02:02.200 --> 02:03.800]  [SPEAKER_04]: And a very good evening to everybody.
[02:03.800 --> 02:05.060]  [SPEAKER_04]: This is Emmanuel Goldstein.
[02:05.160 --> 02:20.320]  [SPEAKER_04]: The program is Off the Hook, where we talk about the latest innovations in technology, the latest threats to your privacy, and all kinds of fun things that can happen to any one of us, and most likely is happening to you right now, even though you don't even know it.
[02:21.200 --> 02:25.560]  [SPEAKER_04]: But there is some good news, but not very much of it this week.
[02:26.480 --> 02:29.200]  [SPEAKER_04]: I guess we have to focus on bad news.
[02:29.280 --> 02:32.440]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, the good news, I guess, is that we're going to be doing mostly phone calls tonight.
[02:32.600 --> 02:38.600]  [SPEAKER_04]: So if you're one of those people that is always fretting that you can't get in until 10.30, well, you can get in pretty soon.
[02:38.600 --> 02:41.160]  [SPEAKER_04]: So give us a call at 212-279-3400.
[02:41.220 --> 02:47.680]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's one of our caller catch-up shows, where you can pretty much spout your views on whatever you feel like spouting them on.
[02:47.680 --> 02:50.660]  [SPEAKER_04]: But first, I'm going to spout my views on a couple of things.
[02:52.140 --> 02:58.780]  [SPEAKER_04]: Some things that have been in the paper recently, which involve some very disturbing things.
[02:58.800 --> 03:04.220]  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know why... if you have seen the news over the past week, you may have seen reference to this.
[03:04.320 --> 03:11.540]  [SPEAKER_04]: There was coverage, there was not a lot of coverage, but there was some coverage of this computer, quote-unquote, pornography case.
[03:12.040 --> 03:29.620]  [SPEAKER_04]: A husband and wife from California were convicted on July 28th of distributing pornography via computer in a case that raises questions about how to apply community standards, the community standards test of federal obscenity law to the information superhighway.
[03:29.900 --> 03:35.820]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm not sure how many of you remember, a few years ago we had Robert Thomas on this radio program.
[03:35.820 --> 03:40.520]  [SPEAKER_04]: He had been raided by local police out in California.
[03:41.580 --> 03:47.540]  [SPEAKER_04]: And eventually, the charges were dropped because it was found that he was not distributing anything that was illegal.
[03:47.540 --> 03:49.260]  [SPEAKER_04]: He was not distributing things to minors.
[03:49.260 --> 03:52.100]  [SPEAKER_04]: He was simply running an adult-oriented bulletin board.
[03:52.640 --> 03:53.760]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, get this.
[03:53.980 --> 04:01.200]  [SPEAKER_04]: What happened to him now is that he was called by somebody in Memphis, Tennessee.
[04:01.540 --> 04:03.920]  [SPEAKER_04]: Now, keep in mind, this guy's bulletin board is in California.
[04:04.520 --> 04:07.140]  [SPEAKER_04]: It was called by somebody in Memphis, Tennessee.
[04:07.140 --> 04:10.320]  [SPEAKER_04]: And because people in Memphis, Tennessee are kind of...
[04:10.320 --> 04:11.880]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, I don't want to say it, but...
[04:11.880 --> 04:15.040]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, let's just say it's not a Renaissance city.
[04:15.460 --> 04:16.160]  [SPEAKER_04]: All right?
[04:17.040 --> 04:23.520]  [SPEAKER_04]: Because of that, he was charged with transmitting computer pornography.
[04:24.000 --> 04:26.420]  [SPEAKER_04]: Now, he didn't call Memphis, Tennessee.
[04:26.580 --> 04:28.020]  [SPEAKER_04]: Memphis, Tennessee called him.
[04:28.360 --> 04:37.980]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yet he was charged and convicted of 11 counts of transmitting obscenity through interstate phone lines through this computer bulletin board.
[04:38.180 --> 04:42.640]  [SPEAKER_04]: Each count carries up to five years in prison and a $250,000 fine.
[04:42.640 --> 04:45.240]  [SPEAKER_04]: So he's facing 55 years in prison.
[04:46.920 --> 04:51.140]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's probably not going to be 55 years in prison, but it shouldn't be a day in prison.
[04:51.760 --> 04:52.920]  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, this is something...
[04:52.920 --> 04:57.620]  [SPEAKER_04]: Community standards in the city in which he lives allows him to do this.
[04:58.220 --> 05:06.360]  [SPEAKER_04]: Now, somebody in Memphis, Tennessee, on their own volition, decides to call this bulletin board and he's charged with violating their community standards.
[05:06.480 --> 05:07.320]  [SPEAKER_04]: Now, it's only half the story.
[05:07.420 --> 05:13.760]  [SPEAKER_04]: The other half of the story is that the people in Memphis, Tennessee, that called him were, guess what?
[05:14.620 --> 05:16.360]  [SPEAKER_04]: People that wanted to convict him.
[05:16.920 --> 05:19.060]  [SPEAKER_04]: A postal inspector of all people.
[05:19.300 --> 05:27.120]  [SPEAKER_04]: A postal inspector testified that he had joined the bulletin board under a false name and had received sexually explicit pictures in his computer in Memphis.
[05:27.160 --> 05:28.040]  [SPEAKER_04]: He asked for it.
[05:28.140 --> 05:31.380]  [SPEAKER_04]: He called up and he asked for it and he got it and he prosecuted the guy that gave it to him.
[05:32.560 --> 05:39.140]  [SPEAKER_04]: And because the case was tried in Memphis, Tennessee, it wasn't too hard to find a jury to say, yeah, that's obscene.
[05:39.220 --> 05:39.720]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's illegal.
[05:39.860 --> 05:40.660]  [SPEAKER_04]: That should be outlawed.
[05:40.740 --> 05:42.000]  [SPEAKER_04]: Death penalty all the way.
[05:43.220 --> 05:51.100]  [SPEAKER_04]: During the week-long trial, jurors were shown photographs carried over the Thomas' bulletin board featuring scenes of bestiality and other sexual fetishes.
[05:51.860 --> 05:55.740]  [SPEAKER_04]: The images were available for a fee to computer users around the world.
[05:56.360 --> 06:06.560]  [SPEAKER_04]: The defense argued unsuccessfully before a trial that prosecutors had shopped around for a place to try this case, looking for a city where a conservative jury might be found.
[06:06.760 --> 06:11.540]  [SPEAKER_04]: This case would never have gone to trial in California, said the defense lawyer.
[06:11.740 --> 06:13.800]  [SPEAKER_04]: And obviously, they're planning to appeal.
[06:14.360 --> 06:15.220]  [SPEAKER_04]: Think about it.
[06:15.320 --> 06:17.720]  [SPEAKER_04]: Think about what this means to any one of us.
[06:17.980 --> 06:25.360]  [SPEAKER_04]: Any one of us running a bulletin board or doing anything that involves transmitting material to a different place.
[06:25.360 --> 06:29.320]  [SPEAKER_04]: A place where maybe different values are inherent.
[06:30.220 --> 06:32.720]  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, you can extend it way beyond the bulletin board.
[06:32.800 --> 06:34.040]  [SPEAKER_04]: You can extend this to the telephone.
[06:34.240 --> 06:38.960]  [SPEAKER_04]: You can extend this to letters in the mail if you want to be really ridiculous about this.
[06:40.800 --> 06:44.400]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's tragic that this has to happen in this particular case.
[06:44.960 --> 06:47.400]  [SPEAKER_04]: Unfortunately, we can't speak with Robert Thomas now.
[06:47.400 --> 06:48.380]  [SPEAKER_04]: He's got his hands full.
[06:49.160 --> 06:50.640]  [SPEAKER_04]: But we wish him well.
[06:50.640 --> 06:52.720]  [SPEAKER_04]: And we'll be keeping an eye on this.
[06:53.540 --> 06:56.040]  [SPEAKER_04]: This is another thing we'll be addressing at the HOPE Conference too.
[06:56.240 --> 06:58.060]  [SPEAKER_04]: So, we hope to see a lot of you there.
[06:59.220 --> 07:03.280]  [SPEAKER_04]: Another thing we're going to be addressing is something that may be happening tomorrow.
[07:04.260 --> 07:05.100]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, that's right.
[07:05.840 --> 07:10.840]  [SPEAKER_04]: Keep your eyes on the media tomorrow because you might see something really, really scary.
[07:11.240 --> 07:13.240]  [SPEAKER_04]: I was in touch with a few people in D.C.
[07:13.380 --> 07:22.200]  [SPEAKER_04]: There are some rumors going around that sometime tomorrow there's going to be an announcement made Oh, I feel the whole city listening now.
[07:22.560 --> 07:22.980]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
[07:23.580 --> 07:42.600]  [SPEAKER_04]: There's going to be an announcement made tomorrow sometime that the national ID card that we talked about a few weeks ago is going to be implemented on a test basis in those states that have been hurt the most by illegal immigration which would include California,
[07:42.860 --> 07:55.120]  [SPEAKER_04]: Texas, Florida, maybe North Dakota who knows those places where all the illegal people just scurry across our border and rob us of all our liberties.
[07:56.180 --> 08:14.340]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, so now that's the excuse for implementing this so-called national identity card which the Department of Immigration and Naturalization wants to do supposedly maybe there are other people behind this but if this happens what will the reaction be?
[08:15.360 --> 08:17.680]  [SPEAKER_04]: I can't imagine anybody supporting this.
[08:17.780 --> 08:19.520]  [SPEAKER_04]: I can't imagine the right supporting this.
[08:19.580 --> 08:21.260]  [SPEAKER_04]: I can't imagine the left supporting this.
[08:21.640 --> 08:30.380]  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know what's going through this administration's mind sometimes when they introduce things like the clipper chip digital telephony bill and national ID cards.
[08:30.540 --> 08:31.660]  [SPEAKER_04]: What is wrong with them?
[08:32.080 --> 08:41.900]  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean we should be going ahead surging forward on things like national health and justice and education and freedom and all those neat things.
[08:42.260 --> 08:56.760]  [SPEAKER_04]: Instead these Orwellian concepts which we don't need there's been no reasonable cause for them and even if there were a cause for them is it worth sacrificing our liberties?
[08:57.240 --> 08:58.720]  [SPEAKER_04]: Is it really necessary?
[08:58.900 --> 09:00.500]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's the question we have to keep asking ourselves.
[09:02.060 --> 09:14.180]  [SPEAKER_04]: So that's something that's not good something bad something we need to keep our eyes on so watch the media tomorrow this may just be a rumor maybe this won't happen but there are people down in D.C.
[09:14.240 --> 09:15.560]  [SPEAKER_04]: that seem to be pushing for this.
[09:16.840 --> 09:37.220]  [SPEAKER_04]: So again we'll have more on that we're going to have a whole panel on that particular subject because we expect it to be a reality by the time the conference starts which is a week from this weekend and it's really coming up on us fast and we also this is good news the only good news of the week for those of you that are old timers and used to read TAP magazine. TAP is the predecessor to 2600
[09:37.220 --> 10:02.460]  [SPEAKER_04]: started by the Yippies and helped out by Abby Hoffman among many others well Cheshire Catalyst - Richard Cheshire the last editor of TAP magazine will be coming up to HOPE and telling us all about the history of TAP telling various stories and maybe showing us some things that we've never seen before so again if you want information on HOPE the number to call is 516-751-2600 however don't listen to
[10:02.460 --> 10:07.000]  [SPEAKER_04]: that message entirely you'll get an answering machine telling you how to pre-register It's too late to pre-register.
[10:07.120 --> 10:12.080]  [SPEAKER_04]: Do not pre-register because there is not enough time for you to mail us something and for us to mail you something back.
[10:12.240 --> 10:20.640]  [SPEAKER_04]: So just come to the door and it'll be worth the extra five bucks, I think, for coming to the door instead of mailing it through the U.S.
[10:20.700 --> 10:21.240]  [SPEAKER_04]: Postal Service.
[10:21.980 --> 10:23.640]  [SPEAKER_04]: All right, that's pretty much all I have to say.
[10:24.840 --> 10:27.120]  [SPEAKER_04]: Just keep your eyes open and your wits about you.
[10:27.120 --> 10:31.520]  [SPEAKER_04]: So our phone number is 212-279-3400.
[10:32.220 --> 10:40.560]  [SPEAKER_04]: And we'll take your phone calls, any questions, any comments, any experiences that have happened to you over the past week or however long it's been since you called in.
[10:40.840 --> 10:41.920]  [SPEAKER_04]: Good evening, you're on the air.
[10:42.080 --> 10:43.440]  [SPEAKER_07]: Hi, it's your favorite caller again.
[10:43.600 --> 10:45.160]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, it certainly is.
[10:45.380 --> 10:45.680]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[10:48.180 --> 10:51.200]  [SPEAKER_07]: I just wanted to mention one thing.
[10:52.900 --> 10:54.860]  [SPEAKER_07]: There is a song.
[10:54.860 --> 10:56.400]  [SPEAKER_07]: I know you like telephone songs.
[10:56.400 --> 11:00.760]  [SPEAKER_07]: I don't know if you're going to have this at the whole conference, but there is a song by the Beastie Boys.
[11:00.920 --> 11:01.600]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's a new song.
[11:01.720 --> 11:02.220]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's called...
[11:02.220 --> 11:04.260]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's actually an album and it's the title track.
[11:04.380 --> 11:05.260]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's called Ill Communication.
[11:05.740 --> 11:07.840]  [SPEAKER_04]: You don't strike me as the Beastie Boys type.
[11:08.200 --> 11:08.780]  [SPEAKER_07]: No, I...
[11:08.780 --> 11:15.400]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, I don't really listen to it, but since it's about telephones and everything, you know...
[11:16.060 --> 11:16.780]  [SPEAKER_07]: But anyway...
[11:16.780 --> 11:19.240]  [SPEAKER_04]: I guess, yeah, you sacrificed your values and...
[11:19.240 --> 11:20.080]  [SPEAKER_07]: You should listen to that.
[11:20.960 --> 11:21.540]  [SPEAKER_07]: What's it called?
[11:21.860 --> 11:24.120]  [SPEAKER_07]: What about the tape that I gave you?
[11:24.300 --> 11:25.300]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, you know, I...
[11:25.300 --> 11:28.980]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, you gave us a tape and I listened to the tape and...
[11:28.980 --> 11:31.100]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, I mean, I have a couple of words of advice.
[11:31.180 --> 11:31.960]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's an interesting tape.
[11:32.180 --> 11:33.940]  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, you have some phone noises in there, but...
[11:33.940 --> 11:44.540]  [SPEAKER_04]: But when you're recording noise off the phone, it's probably best not to be making all kinds of comments and talking and laughing in the background while things are happening.
[11:44.760 --> 11:46.980]  [SPEAKER_07]: You've got to remember, that was like 10, 15 years ago.
[11:47.020 --> 11:48.120]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, you were a little kid then.
[11:48.280 --> 11:48.620]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[11:48.620 --> 11:51.680]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I recognized your voice even then as a little kid.
[11:52.620 --> 11:54.000]  [SPEAKER_04]: But it's an interesting tape.
[11:54.920 --> 11:56.240]  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't have it with me right now.
[11:56.360 --> 11:57.200]  [SPEAKER_04]: I wanted to keep it safe.
[11:57.580 --> 11:57.760]  [SPEAKER_07]: All right.
[11:57.820 --> 11:59.040]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, you're going to have it at the conference.
[11:59.160 --> 12:02.020]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, well, I'm going to give it to you, and you're going to have it at the conference.
[12:02.260 --> 12:05.480]  [SPEAKER_04]: But I like the telephone song where you were banging the pots and pans.
[12:05.580 --> 12:06.720]  [SPEAKER_04]: I thought that was pretty interesting.
[12:07.180 --> 12:08.180]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, that was...
[12:08.180 --> 12:10.100]  [SPEAKER_04]: You know, that's something I think people need to hear.
[12:10.200 --> 12:11.120]  [SPEAKER_07]: I just want to mention two things.
[12:11.120 --> 12:15.880]  [SPEAKER_07]: I've noticed that on certain payphones, you cannot dial certain carrier access codes.
[12:16.040 --> 12:20.320]  [SPEAKER_07]: In other words, on one payphone, you cannot dial 10222 for MCI.
[12:20.460 --> 12:22.640]  [SPEAKER_07]: You'll get a recording saying you can't complete the number.
[12:22.900 --> 12:23.060]  [SPEAKER_04]: Really?
[12:23.260 --> 12:23.940]  [SPEAKER_07]: And, yeah.
[12:24.400 --> 12:26.240]  [SPEAKER_07]: And then another payphone, you'll be able to.
[12:26.420 --> 12:31.640]  [SPEAKER_07]: And then you won't be able to dial N, R, ITT on certain payphones.
[12:32.060 --> 12:33.960]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, keep in mind that every telephone...
[12:33.960 --> 12:35.800]  [SPEAKER_07]: 9X, I'm talking about 9X payphones regularly.
[12:36.020 --> 12:38.580]  [SPEAKER_04]: Every telephone is really a computer terminal.
[12:38.800 --> 12:39.480]  [SPEAKER_07]: No, no, no.
[12:39.480 --> 12:40.500]  [SPEAKER_07]: I'm talking about 9X.
[12:40.500 --> 12:42.200]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm talking about 9X, too.
[12:42.400 --> 12:44.980]  [SPEAKER_04]: Every telephone is a computer terminal, the equivalent of it.
[12:45.100 --> 12:46.800]  [SPEAKER_04]: It can be programmed to do certain things.
[12:46.880 --> 12:50.280]  [SPEAKER_04]: They can program one phone not to accept the 7 key if they wanted to.
[12:50.720 --> 12:54.380]  [SPEAKER_04]: You know, they can do anything like that because it's all controlled by computers.
[12:54.620 --> 12:55.560]  [SPEAKER_07]: I've got to mention something.
[12:55.620 --> 12:56.140]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's not difficult.
[12:56.300 --> 13:04.020]  [SPEAKER_07]: At work, our PBX, the guy who runs the phones and the PBX and everything, he didn't know that you can block 411.
[13:04.220 --> 13:07.500]  [SPEAKER_07]: I was trying to tell him that, you know, you see, I'm...
[13:07.500 --> 13:10.900]  [SPEAKER_07]: I amaze him because I knew about phones and everything.
[13:11.120 --> 13:13.060]  [SPEAKER_07]: He was talking about...
[13:13.060 --> 13:21.280]  [SPEAKER_07]: I was talking to him about how you can make a free phone call within the system by using the call completion feature.
[13:21.920 --> 13:24.320]  [SPEAKER_07]: So I told him to block the call completion feature.
[13:24.700 --> 13:29.500]  [SPEAKER_04]: You can block the call completion feature, which is basically when you dial information and they say for an...
[13:29.500 --> 13:31.880]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, they say, to connect to this number, press 1.
[13:31.880 --> 13:35.200]  [SPEAKER_04]: By the way, if you're still on the line, we're going to charge you 35 cents for it.
[13:35.240 --> 13:37.160]  [SPEAKER_07]: Right, but you could block that and just make it say the number.
[13:37.500 --> 13:37.860]  [SPEAKER_04]: Really?
[13:37.900 --> 13:38.760]  [SPEAKER_04]: I didn't know you could block that.
[13:39.020 --> 13:39.260]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[13:39.680 --> 13:39.940]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[13:40.120 --> 13:42.560]  [SPEAKER_04]: So did you tell them to block that or information entirely?
[13:43.460 --> 13:43.700]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[13:44.420 --> 13:45.300]  [SPEAKER_04]: Did you or didn't you?
[13:45.700 --> 13:46.660]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yes, I did tell them.
[13:47.000 --> 13:48.780]  [SPEAKER_04]: To block information or just to call completion?
[13:48.780 --> 13:50.960]  [SPEAKER_07]: Not to block information, to block the call completion feature.
[13:51.420 --> 13:51.940]  [SPEAKER_04]: I see.
[13:52.700 --> 13:55.420]  [SPEAKER_04]: And on 555-1212...
[13:55.420 --> 13:56.040]  [SPEAKER_07]: That's the same thing.
[13:56.260 --> 13:57.960]  [SPEAKER_04]: ...will you get call completion on that?
[13:58.140 --> 13:58.320]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[13:59.000 --> 14:01.340]  [SPEAKER_04]: But if you block it on 411, it would block it both.
[14:01.380 --> 14:01.380]  No, no.
[14:01.640 --> 14:04.700]  [SPEAKER_07]: You block it in 9X, not in the system.
[14:05.060 --> 14:05.500]  [SPEAKER_04]: I see.
[14:05.660 --> 14:08.140]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, now, I believe there's national...
[14:08.140 --> 14:10.860]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's starting to be implemented, national call completion.
[14:11.120 --> 14:11.540]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, I know.
[14:11.800 --> 14:14.420]  [SPEAKER_04]: So I don't think you'd be blocking that if you blocked it with 9X.
[14:14.500 --> 14:16.540]  [SPEAKER_07]: Actually, we're not able to get national operator.
[14:16.760 --> 14:17.800]  [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, you know, AT&T.
[14:19.120 --> 14:21.700]  [SPEAKER_04]: You're not able to get... What if you ask New York Telephone for AT&T?
[14:21.900 --> 14:23.120]  [SPEAKER_07]: You can't get on 9X.
[14:23.160 --> 14:23.800]  [SPEAKER_07]: You can't dial zero.
[14:24.020 --> 14:24.880]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, you can't dial zero.
[14:25.000 --> 14:25.140]  [SPEAKER_07]: No.
[14:25.340 --> 14:28.240]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's one of those things where each station gets a little bill.
[14:28.720 --> 14:29.120]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh-huh.
[14:30.000 --> 14:31.920]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, what if you want to make an operator-assisted call?
[14:32.260 --> 14:32.680]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, you can.
[14:32.940 --> 14:34.440]  [SPEAKER_04]: You can make a collect call?
[14:34.720 --> 14:35.120]  [SPEAKER_04]: No.
[14:35.500 --> 14:35.800]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[14:36.820 --> 14:38.820]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, some things I guess you just have to live with.
[14:39.380 --> 14:40.240]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, that's true.
[14:40.860 --> 14:41.620]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, anything else?
[14:42.000 --> 14:43.480]  [SPEAKER_07]: Um, let's see.
[14:43.600 --> 14:43.980]  [SPEAKER_07]: What else?
[14:45.620 --> 14:47.640]  [SPEAKER_07]: I guess... No, I guess not.
[14:47.640 --> 14:50.460]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, well, I suppose we'll see you at the 2600 meeting on Friday.
[14:50.660 --> 14:51.240]  [SPEAKER_07]: No, I'm not.
[14:51.340 --> 14:52.380]  [SPEAKER_07]: I'm going to be in Philadelphia meeting.
[14:52.660 --> 14:53.460]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, okay.
[14:53.460 --> 14:54.920]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, I'll make some phone calls to them.
[14:55.220 --> 14:55.580]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, wow!
[14:56.420 --> 14:59.300]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, I'm sure you'll meet lots of interesting people down there.
[14:59.420 --> 15:00.300]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay, bye, man.
[15:00.320 --> 15:01.000]  [SPEAKER_04]: All right, take care.
[15:02.260 --> 15:03.860]  [SPEAKER_04]: Get on the phone to Philadelphia, quick.
[15:06.860 --> 15:07.460]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, boy.
[15:08.360 --> 15:09.160]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, there is a meeting.
[15:09.400 --> 15:12.340]  [SPEAKER_04]: There's meetings everywhere this Friday.
[15:12.840 --> 15:15.980]  [SPEAKER_04]: But the one here is at CityCorp Center at 5 p.m.
[15:16.180 --> 15:16.940]  [SPEAKER_04]: by the pay phones.
[15:17.680 --> 15:21.020]  [SPEAKER_04]: We don't meet with the corporate executives, but sometimes they come downstairs and meet with us.
[15:22.040 --> 15:22.960]  [SPEAKER_04]: And 5 p.m.
[15:23.000 --> 15:23.560]  [SPEAKER_04]: to 8 p.m.
[15:23.580 --> 15:25.360]  [SPEAKER_04]: This is the last meeting before hope.
[15:26.800 --> 15:28.420]  [SPEAKER_04]: For whatever happens that hope happens.
[15:28.720 --> 15:31.100]  [SPEAKER_04]: So, 212-279-3400.
[15:31.300 --> 15:31.680]  [SPEAKER_04]: Good evening.
[15:31.800 --> 15:32.140]  [SPEAKER_04]: You're on the air.
[15:33.040 --> 15:33.680]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yes, hello.
[15:33.920 --> 15:34.080]  [SPEAKER_07]: Hi.
[15:34.320 --> 15:35.040]  [SPEAKER_07]: Manuel, hi.
[15:35.820 --> 15:36.540]  [SPEAKER_07]: Fantastic show.
[15:36.920 --> 15:37.680]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, it just started.
[15:37.800 --> 15:39.680]  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know if it's quite reached the fantastic level yet.
[15:39.720 --> 15:40.540]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's getting there.
[15:40.640 --> 15:41.760]  [SPEAKER_07]: On an ongoing basis.
[15:41.940 --> 15:42.800]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, oh, okay.
[15:43.020 --> 15:43.380]  [SPEAKER_04]: Ongoing.
[15:43.420 --> 15:44.080]  [SPEAKER_04]: I can accept that.
[15:44.180 --> 15:45.740]  [SPEAKER_07]: A supporter and member of the station.
[15:45.860 --> 15:46.280]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, thank you.
[15:46.340 --> 15:47.000]  [SPEAKER_04]: We appreciate that.
[15:47.500 --> 15:50.040]  [SPEAKER_07]: I wanted to tell you about something and get your comment.
[15:50.140 --> 15:53.400]  [SPEAKER_07]: I don't know if it has to do with phones, but it has to do with electronic security.
[15:55.160 --> 16:02.680]  [SPEAKER_07]: I have a Visa account with Bank One, which is one of the major credit card issuers in the country.
[16:02.820 --> 16:13.660]  [SPEAKER_07]: And they sent me this thing in the mail where they want me to sign up to use my credit card in ATM machines to get cash out of ATMs on my Visa card.
[16:13.860 --> 16:22.720]  [SPEAKER_07]: And there's this little mailer you're supposed to mail back and to request a PIN for your account, a personal access identification number.
[16:23.240 --> 16:24.560]  [SPEAKER_07]: Personal identification number.
[16:24.660 --> 16:30.460]  [SPEAKER_07]: And it seems to me like this is the most unsecure thing I've ever seen.
[16:30.580 --> 16:33.620]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's a three-panel paper.
[16:33.800 --> 16:39.880]  [SPEAKER_07]: You're supposed to fold it in three and tape it and then mail it back to them.
[16:39.880 --> 16:41.420]  [SPEAKER_07]: So it's like the size of a postcard.
[16:41.860 --> 16:48.160]  [SPEAKER_07]: On the address, addressed to them, it says Bank Card Associates Attention Security.
[16:49.440 --> 16:50.220]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, great.
[16:50.580 --> 17:01.280]  [SPEAKER_07]: On the back of it, on the other side, in other words, it has a little blurb explaining personal identification number, how you can use your PIN to get cash with your credit card.
[17:01.560 --> 17:06.160]  [SPEAKER_04]: So you select your PIN, and then you advertise to the world that you've selected your PIN and it's in the mail now.
[17:06.260 --> 17:07.360]  [SPEAKER_07]: What you have to do is open it up.
[17:07.480 --> 17:10.680]  [SPEAKER_07]: You have to write in your credit card account number and the PIN.
[17:11.000 --> 17:12.660]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, the whole shebang then?
[17:12.800 --> 17:13.000]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[17:13.320 --> 17:13.660]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[17:14.120 --> 17:15.820]  [SPEAKER_07]: I'm not sending this in.
[17:15.920 --> 17:20.100]  [SPEAKER_07]: Anybody can get this out of the mail and they'll have my account number and my PIN too.
[17:20.980 --> 17:22.060]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's certainly true.
[17:22.300 --> 17:23.240]  [SPEAKER_04]: And if you...
[17:23.240 --> 17:26.360]  [SPEAKER_07]: This is, I mean, as bizarre as I do.
[17:27.000 --> 17:27.900]  [SPEAKER_07]: What do you think of this?
[17:27.920 --> 17:28.800]  [SPEAKER_07]: Is this unsecure?
[17:28.980 --> 17:29.980]  [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, can someone use this?
[17:30.020 --> 17:31.160]  [SPEAKER_04]: Of course it's insecure.
[17:31.400 --> 17:34.600]  [SPEAKER_04]: Is there a way you can, without even opening the envelope, peer through it?
[17:34.680 --> 17:36.420]  [SPEAKER_04]: Sometimes you can do that and just read through the paper.
[17:36.580 --> 17:38.240]  [SPEAKER_07]: I think so, because it just folds.
[17:39.840 --> 17:41.580]  [SPEAKER_04]: Like, marking over where you would write your PIN?
[17:41.760 --> 17:41.940]  [SPEAKER_07]: No.
[17:42.500 --> 17:42.620]  [SPEAKER_04]: No.
[17:42.680 --> 17:43.240]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, that's...
[17:43.240 --> 17:44.260]  [SPEAKER_04]: I would not use that system.
[17:45.520 --> 17:48.440]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'd also give them a call and say, you know, you guys are morons.
[17:48.860 --> 17:49.340]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, I know.
[17:49.500 --> 17:50.300]  [SPEAKER_07]: You can be moronious.
[17:51.120 --> 17:58.080]  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, that's the case with most instances of fraud of various sorts, whether it be phone fraud or credit card fraud.
[17:58.500 --> 18:04.160]  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, not to justify it or anything like that, but lots of it is based on utter stupidity on the part of the companies.
[18:04.160 --> 18:06.540]  [SPEAKER_04]: They just simply do not know the meaning of the word security.
[18:07.180 --> 18:08.040]  [SPEAKER_04]: And it's very hard.
[18:08.040 --> 18:11.600]  [SPEAKER_04]: You know, a lot of people sometimes, they're faced with this choice in life.
[18:11.600 --> 18:18.280]  [SPEAKER_04]: Do I take the high road or do I bow to temptation and get everything I want and live like people in commercials?
[18:18.820 --> 18:22.540]  [SPEAKER_04]: You know, it's kind of hard for some people that haven't had everything in their lives.
[18:23.720 --> 18:25.800]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, they make it sound so easy.
[18:25.900 --> 18:27.040]  [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, you can get cash.
[18:27.180 --> 18:37.500]  [SPEAKER_07]: They also don't, you know, mention except in the small print that if you do get cash out of your, on your Visa account that they're going to charge you a 3% or 4% service charge.
[18:37.640 --> 18:39.580]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, it's incredible what they wind up charging.
[18:39.980 --> 18:49.860]  [SPEAKER_04]: You know, another thing, and this reminds me of it, something that I find really disturbing is the spreading of banks that charge you for using ATMs.
[18:49.860 --> 18:55.200]  [SPEAKER_04]: Now, this is something they introduced years ago to make things, you know, easy for us.
[18:55.400 --> 18:59.400]  [SPEAKER_04]: They did everything possible to get us to use ATMs and now they're charging us for them.
[18:59.600 --> 19:11.040]  [SPEAKER_04]: And they introduced these networks and they're trying to convince us that it costs them lots of money to have another bank give you money instead of your bank.
[19:11.540 --> 19:12.960]  [SPEAKER_04]: And it's utter nonsense.
[19:13.200 --> 19:14.560]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's like phone company logic.
[19:14.960 --> 19:17.740]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's like a dollar for a lot of banks per transaction.
[19:17.940 --> 19:18.160]  [SPEAKER_04]: Right.
[19:18.160 --> 19:23.520]  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, if you want to take out $10, you know, you pay a dollar every time you want to take out $10.
[19:23.820 --> 19:25.300]  [SPEAKER_04]: They even charge you if you want to deposit something.
[19:26.000 --> 19:27.160]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's just not right.
[19:27.260 --> 19:28.500]  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, this is something that...
[19:28.500 --> 19:29.580]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's easy for them.
[19:29.600 --> 19:30.360]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's easy for us.
[19:30.360 --> 19:30.720]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's quick.
[19:30.800 --> 19:31.840]  [SPEAKER_04]: There's no humans involved.
[19:31.960 --> 19:35.440]  [SPEAKER_04]: They don't have to pay somebody to stand there smiling and giving you money.
[19:35.820 --> 19:36.020]  Right.
[19:36.200 --> 19:38.060]  [SPEAKER_04]: So that kind of thing is...
[19:38.060 --> 19:43.280]  [SPEAKER_04]: It can't be allowed to spread because we'll get used to it and then we'll just wind up paying fees for nothing.
[19:43.520 --> 19:48.180]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, let me just ask you something real quick going through this thing with the PIN and the card.
[19:48.340 --> 19:57.980]  [SPEAKER_07]: If the person who is trying to commit fraud does not have your actual card but they have your account and your PIN, how do they go about...
[19:57.980 --> 20:05.540]  [SPEAKER_07]: Not that I'm asking how to do this but I'm curious about how do they commit fraud in order to steal money from your account?
[20:05.540 --> 20:06.240]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, okay.
[20:06.380 --> 20:08.020]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's important to know these things.
[20:08.120 --> 20:09.040]  [SPEAKER_04]: There's nothing wrong with asking that.
[20:09.980 --> 20:17.600]  [SPEAKER_04]: With an account number with a PIN if they have the ability to make a card they have everything they need to do that.
[20:18.060 --> 20:33.760]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's why it's very important that you take your receipt whenever you go to a bank machine using a credit card because it prints your full credit card number on there and if the person is looking over your shoulder or videotaping or whatever they can simply take your PIN and they'll be able to make everything work just fine.
[20:34.020 --> 20:38.260]  [SPEAKER_07]: But keep in mind Can it be done by computers too without actually having a physical card?
[20:38.660 --> 20:40.320]  [SPEAKER_07]: Like if someone gets computer access?
[20:40.600 --> 20:45.620]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, a credit card number is a very valuable thing to have even though it's a very simple thing to get.
[20:45.800 --> 21:06.340]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's usually a 16 digit number and the only other thing you need is an expiration date which last I heard in many cases this may have changed but in many cases they don't even check the expiration date they just ask you for it but it doesn't really matter whatever you say as long as it's not something they did in the past but with those numbers and an address which is not hard to get either or not
[21:06.340 --> 21:13.640]  [SPEAKER_04]: hard to make up you simply are able to buy amazing things over the phone and it shouldn't be that simple.
[21:13.780 --> 21:15.240]  [SPEAKER_07]: What are they doing about this?
[21:15.380 --> 21:20.680]  [SPEAKER_07]: Do the credit card companies not care if their card holder's accounts are violated?
[21:21.020 --> 21:43.880]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's not that they don't care it's that they don't have the imagination to think of a better system where there's something a little bit more secure than just a bunch of numbers on a card they want to make things as easy as possible for consumers to buy things if you want to buy something on an impulse and the only thing that you have to do is read 16 digits what's to stop you?
[21:43.940 --> 22:02.980]  [SPEAKER_07]: You're not going to think that you don't have the money to pay for it you just have those magic 16 digits and you can get it the next day Could it be that they don't care if someone is fraudulently charging your card because they're going to get the charge anyway and even though it's not a legitimate charge that you make someone has to pay for it and they're going to get them Well I mean they wind
[22:02.980 --> 22:19.380]  [SPEAKER_04]: up swallowing a lot of the fraud but apparently it has not reached the stage where it's that much of a threat to them I mean it hurts merchants certainly I mean lots of times merchants really get it from fraud More so than the credit card companies.
[22:20.220 --> 22:21.720]  [SPEAKER_04]: You know, it can happen that way.
[22:23.080 --> 22:28.000]  [SPEAKER_04]: So, the pressure has to be put on the credit card companies to tighten up their act a little bit.
[22:28.100 --> 22:32.520]  [SPEAKER_07]: If anyone else out there has Bank One and got this thing, I would suggest that they call up and complain.
[22:32.620 --> 22:34.280]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm sure they're not the only bank that does that.
[22:34.480 --> 22:35.120]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm sure it's not.
[22:35.220 --> 22:40.660]  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, all kinds of institutions like that don't really think about security.
[22:41.200 --> 22:42.940]  [SPEAKER_04]: You know what's interesting, though, with credit cards?
[22:43.020 --> 22:45.600]  [SPEAKER_04]: This is something I just discovered.
[22:47.280 --> 22:49.720]  [SPEAKER_04]: I used to go around with a gasoline card.
[22:49.800 --> 22:50.720]  [SPEAKER_04]: I had a Shell card.
[22:52.040 --> 22:55.120]  [SPEAKER_04]: And I'd buy gasoline with my Shell card sometimes.
[22:55.740 --> 22:56.600]  [SPEAKER_04]: Plain and simple.
[22:56.720 --> 22:57.460]  [SPEAKER_04]: Same price, too.
[22:57.660 --> 23:01.340]  [SPEAKER_04]: It wasn't any more expensive to pay cash or to pay credit card.
[23:03.240 --> 23:08.080]  [SPEAKER_04]: Now, I've gotten this offer from Shell to have a MasterCard.
[23:08.220 --> 23:12.500]  [SPEAKER_04]: So, I have this Shell MasterCard, which comes from Chase Manhattan Bank.
[23:13.120 --> 23:16.780]  [SPEAKER_04]: And I can take this MasterCard and go to any gas station.
[23:16.780 --> 23:24.620]  [SPEAKER_04]: So, I can go now to a mobile station and pay for gas with my Shell MasterCard from Chase Manhattan.
[23:24.860 --> 23:26.280]  [SPEAKER_04]: And I'm paying the same price.
[23:26.300 --> 23:27.960]  [SPEAKER_04]: They have to split it four ways now.
[23:28.240 --> 23:34.120]  [SPEAKER_04]: Instead of giving all the money to Shell, now they have to split it between Shell, Mobile, MasterCard, and Chase Manhattan Bank.
[23:34.200 --> 23:36.180]  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, I feel great every time I get gas now.
[23:36.920 --> 23:40.240]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm doing my bit to lessen profits to the evil people.
[23:41.820 --> 23:43.100]  [SPEAKER_07]: All right, I'll let you go, Emmanuel.
[23:43.220 --> 23:44.100]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, thanks for calling.
[23:44.260 --> 23:44.600]  [SPEAKER_07]: Thanks.
[23:44.860 --> 23:45.100]  Bye, man.
[23:46.420 --> 23:48.940]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm sure they're raking it in somehow, but I feel better.
[23:49.200 --> 23:49.680]  [SPEAKER_04]: Good evening.
[23:49.780 --> 23:50.140]  [SPEAKER_04]: You're on the air.
[23:50.940 --> 23:52.380]  [SPEAKER_17]: Yes, I have a couple things.
[23:52.680 --> 23:52.860]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[23:53.260 --> 24:05.740]  [SPEAKER_17]: First thing is, where in the New York City area can I go out and purchase a used or semi-used cellular phone at a discount price without going to Cellular One and getting raped from them?
[24:06.200 --> 24:08.080]  [SPEAKER_04]: There's all kinds of places on Canal Street.
[24:08.300 --> 24:13.900]  [SPEAKER_04]: I would just walk up and down to Canal Street, and I'm sure you'll find something at a really phenomenally low price.
[24:14.380 --> 24:14.640]  [SPEAKER_17]: Okay.
[24:14.720 --> 24:19.340]  [SPEAKER_17]: Will there be anybody at the HOPE conference that'll be vending stuff like that?
[24:19.700 --> 24:35.860]  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know if anyone's going to be selling cellular phones, but I'm sure a lot of people can guide you in that direction and show you things that you can get, accessories you might be able to get, and we can certainly tell you where to get used ones in the city.
[24:36.520 --> 24:36.760]  [SPEAKER_17]: Okay.
[24:36.940 --> 24:37.520]  [SPEAKER_17]: That's about it.
[24:37.660 --> 24:38.120]  [SPEAKER_17]: And thank you.
[24:38.560 --> 24:40.040]  [SPEAKER_17]: The Rebel did come up with something good.
[24:40.420 --> 24:46.520]  [SPEAKER_17]: I'm enjoying reporting broken pay phones to the 800-NYT-COIN number.
[24:47.000 --> 24:50.700]  [SPEAKER_17]: It gives me a sense that 9X is actually doing something about the phones.
[24:50.800 --> 24:52.080]  [SPEAKER_04]: Are they doing something about the phones?
[24:52.080 --> 25:03.740]  [SPEAKER_17]: Well, when you report a phone that's broken, you go through the voicemail thing, and then you report it an hour later, they'll tell you you already have an outstanding request on that phone, and it'll be fixed on a certain date.
[25:03.980 --> 25:04.460]  [SPEAKER_04]: And is it?
[25:04.880 --> 25:05.500]  [SPEAKER_17]: I'm waiting.
[25:05.720 --> 25:12.080]  [SPEAKER_17]: I have a phone that's been vandalized in front of the store that I work in, and I'm waiting to see if that phone is going to be fixed on the date they promised.
[25:12.300 --> 25:12.520]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh-huh.
[25:13.140 --> 25:16.300]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, you know, I'll tell you, I've had some experiences in the last week.
[25:16.340 --> 25:21.160]  [SPEAKER_04]: I've had experiences every week now for about a year with 9X fixing things.
[25:21.160 --> 25:25.880]  [SPEAKER_04]: I've had a line, which, coincidentally enough, is the line I use for modem connections.
[25:26.380 --> 25:31.660]  [SPEAKER_04]: And this is a line that, for some reason, has little bursts of static which knock me completely off the modem.
[25:32.180 --> 25:39.780]  [SPEAKER_04]: Now, trying to tell this to 9X is like trying to explain something in Swahili to somebody because they simply cannot...
[25:39.780 --> 25:41.280]  [SPEAKER_04]: First of all, they don't know what a modem is.
[25:41.440 --> 25:41.960]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay?
[25:41.960 --> 25:47.220]  [SPEAKER_04]: And then, they test the line when you call, and they say, well, it's testing clear now.
[25:47.220 --> 25:48.220]  [SPEAKER_04]: It must be your fault.
[25:48.500 --> 25:52.000]  [SPEAKER_04]: And I'm trying to tell them, you know, this is something that happens sporadically.
[25:52.080 --> 25:54.520]  [SPEAKER_04]: There's something rubbing together in the trees, maybe.
[25:54.820 --> 25:55.960]  [SPEAKER_04]: Your wires are crossing.
[25:56.120 --> 26:00.840]  [SPEAKER_04]: They're not always crossed, but sometimes they touch, and there's a problem, and that's when I get knocked off.
[26:01.400 --> 26:08.900]  [SPEAKER_04]: Four times I had to file a repair request before somebody came out, and they made a valiant attempt to fix the problem, finally.
[26:09.440 --> 26:11.480]  [SPEAKER_04]: And they made it better, but they didn't quite fix it.
[26:11.620 --> 26:16.060]  [SPEAKER_17]: I've had the exact same problem with 9X, except I had AM radio on my line.
[26:16.420 --> 26:17.580]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, that can be a problem.
[26:17.720 --> 26:19.500]  [SPEAKER_04]: I think I know what can cause that.
[26:19.580 --> 26:20.900]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's the length of your cable.
[26:21.140 --> 26:22.040]  [SPEAKER_17]: And I didn't...
[26:22.040 --> 26:26.540]  [SPEAKER_17]: You didn't even need a radio with the quality of the broadcast that's coming into my home.
[26:26.880 --> 26:29.280]  [SPEAKER_17]: I had 9X in my house five different times.
[26:29.620 --> 26:31.920]  [SPEAKER_17]: They'll tell me, it's my equipment, it's my equipment.
[26:32.460 --> 26:36.120]  [SPEAKER_17]: And they say, they plug in this butt set, and he says, it's fine, you don't hear it right here.
[26:36.240 --> 26:38.880]  [SPEAKER_17]: And I said, well, I don't have 200 bucks to go out and buy a butt set to make it.
[26:38.900 --> 26:41.840]  [SPEAKER_17]: I can take all my phone calls with, can you please do something about the radio on the line?
[26:43.400 --> 26:44.500]  [SPEAKER_17]: They fixed me up.
[26:44.600 --> 26:49.820]  [SPEAKER_17]: I have like three different suppressors on each line, and now it's so I can live with it now.
[26:50.300 --> 26:51.340]  [SPEAKER_04]: What was the station?
[26:51.660 --> 26:55.100]  [SPEAKER_17]: It was WABC, broadcasting out of City Island.
[26:55.300 --> 26:57.000]  [SPEAKER_04]: So you've got Bob Grant on your phone, huh?
[26:57.120 --> 26:57.420]  [SPEAKER_17]: Exactly.
[26:57.720 --> 26:58.000]  [SPEAKER_04]: Wow.
[26:59.000 --> 26:59.920]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, I pity you.
[27:00.120 --> 27:01.060]  [SPEAKER_17]: That's 9X for you.
[27:01.160 --> 27:01.460]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[27:01.780 --> 27:04.500]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's probably some subtle propaganda ploy.
[27:04.500 --> 27:14.420]  [SPEAKER_17]: What's good is when you call repair, you call 611, and they don't believe that something's actually broken, and something's wrong with your phone, because you're calling in, you're calling on that number, and they don't believe you, that something's wrong.
[27:14.520 --> 27:16.800]  [SPEAKER_17]: And they say, well, okay, we'll send someone out.
[27:17.140 --> 27:23.420]  [SPEAKER_04]: If you ever want to have a night of fun, call 611, and when they ask you what phone number you want to report out of service, say 611.
[27:25.020 --> 27:26.940]  [SPEAKER_04]: You can go around for quite a while with that one.
[27:27.080 --> 27:27.820]  [SPEAKER_17]: I'll have to give that a try.
[27:28.040 --> 27:28.220]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[27:28.440 --> 27:28.920]  [SPEAKER_04]: Thanks for calling.
[27:29.120 --> 27:29.360]  [SPEAKER_17]: Good night.
[27:30.220 --> 27:40.680]  [SPEAKER_04]: By the way, at HOPE, we're going to have a, I think I might have mentioned this last week, we're having a social engineering contest where, I don't know exactly how we're going to do this yet, but we're going to get an operator on the phone up there on the podium,
[27:40.680 --> 27:50.320]  [SPEAKER_04]: and anybody who wants to try can talk to the operator and get her to do whatever it is that's not obscene, that is, within reason.
[27:51.180 --> 27:56.440]  [SPEAKER_04]: And shut down the whole system, or transfer you for free over to Tahiti or something.
[27:56.920 --> 28:00.180]  [SPEAKER_04]: Whatever it is you think you can get away with, see how far you can go.
[28:00.620 --> 28:02.180]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's all part of social engineering.
[28:02.660 --> 28:03.680]  [SPEAKER_04]: Might not be AT&T.
[28:03.780 --> 28:04.540]  [SPEAKER_04]: Maybe we'll do Sprint.
[28:04.600 --> 28:04.940]  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know.
[28:05.100 --> 28:07.220]  [SPEAKER_04]: We'll do various operators and see what we can get them to do.
[28:08.620 --> 28:11.740]  [SPEAKER_04]: In the past, people have done all kinds of strange things with operators.
[28:12.700 --> 28:15.300]  [SPEAKER_04]: Had them turn off their consoles.
[28:15.840 --> 28:16.680]  [SPEAKER_04]: One person...
[28:17.440 --> 28:18.520]  [SPEAKER_04]: I heard this one.
[28:18.520 --> 28:22.620]  [SPEAKER_04]: And one person actually got the operator to go...
[28:22.620 --> 28:28.740]  [SPEAKER_04]: This was an AOS service, alternate operator service, one of the sleazy companies.
[28:29.140 --> 28:33.720]  [SPEAKER_04]: They got them to take their console down to a C prompt in DOS.
[28:34.900 --> 28:36.980]  [SPEAKER_04]: The operator was saying, well, what do I do now?
[28:36.980 --> 28:38.040]  [SPEAKER_04]: I have a C prompt.
[28:38.160 --> 28:43.440]  [SPEAKER_04]: And the person was saying, okay, well, you type a directory here, and you pipe it to this file, and you...
[28:43.440 --> 28:49.860]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, you turn off the back of the computer now, and you just had to picture what was going on in that operator room after this poor person was over.
[28:50.180 --> 28:51.440]  [SPEAKER_04]: All in the name of fun, though.
[28:51.560 --> 28:55.460]  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, it's called job training, of one sort or another.
[28:56.520 --> 28:58.500]  [SPEAKER_04]: 212-279-3400.
[28:58.700 --> 28:59.300]  [SPEAKER_04]: Good evening.
[28:59.420 --> 28:59.620]  [SPEAKER_04]: You're on.
[29:00.360 --> 29:00.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, hi.
[29:00.960 --> 29:02.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: I'm enjoying your show, as usual.
[29:02.460 --> 29:02.660]  [SPEAKER_04]: Thanks.
[29:03.660 --> 29:13.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: In regards to the last caller who was asking about where he can buy a cellular phone, and perhaps of interest to other people, I just attended the police department property auction today.
[29:13.420 --> 29:14.920]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, you know, I heard about that.
[29:15.180 --> 29:17.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: They sell a lot of electronic equipment.
[29:18.960 --> 29:22.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: Unfortunately, you basically need to take off two weekdays in order to attend it.
[29:22.600 --> 29:26.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: You view the equipment on a Monday, and it's auctioned the following Wednesday.
[29:27.460 --> 29:31.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: But I did attend it, and what I saw was a lot of cellular phones.
[29:31.800 --> 29:32.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: Some...
[29:32.240 --> 29:40.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: I don't know much about them, but there were some pretty old and clunky-looking ones, and some very new, compact-looking ones, and all the familiar name brands you'd see.
[29:41.020 --> 29:49.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: And they were... went in lots of... between individual phones, or you'd buy six at once, and the prices were as low as $25 for a phone.
[29:49.760 --> 29:52.540]  [SPEAKER_04]: And I imagine these are all drug contraband.
[29:53.020 --> 29:54.380]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's what I would imagine, yeah.
[29:54.600 --> 29:54.820]  [SPEAKER_04]: Mm-hmm.
[29:54.840 --> 29:55.480]  [SPEAKER_04]: A lot of beepers?
[29:55.880 --> 29:56.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: Lots of beepers.
[29:56.880 --> 29:59.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: They have so many that they only sell them in lots of about 50.
[30:00.340 --> 30:01.680]  [SPEAKER_04]: You can start a beeper company.
[30:01.940 --> 30:02.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, that's what I think.
[30:02.960 --> 30:07.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: There were people bidding on them, and they were going for about $1,000 for maybe 50 beepers.
[30:08.020 --> 30:09.580]  [SPEAKER_04]: $1,000 for 50 beepers?
[30:09.700 --> 30:09.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[30:10.960 --> 30:15.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: Including, you know, digital alphanumeric ones and stuff.
[30:15.480 --> 30:19.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: They also have some computer equipment and other office equipment.
[30:19.740 --> 30:21.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's kind of interesting to check out.
[30:21.440 --> 30:21.600]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[30:22.140 --> 30:23.220]  [SPEAKER_04]: How often does this happen?
[30:24.300 --> 30:25.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's irregular.
[30:25.300 --> 30:26.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's about once a month.
[30:27.260 --> 30:28.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: The next one...
[30:28.500 --> 30:29.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: Actually, I know the date.
[30:29.360 --> 30:31.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: The next one is September 12th.
[30:31.800 --> 30:32.260]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's a Monday.
[30:32.620 --> 30:34.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's when you view the merchandise.
[30:34.480 --> 30:36.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's in a warehouse in Long Island City.
[30:36.800 --> 30:37.040]  [SPEAKER_09]: Mm-hmm.
[30:37.040 --> 30:44.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: And then the following Wednesday, I guess it would be the 14th, you bid on the products at a police headquarters in downtown Manhattan.
[30:45.740 --> 30:48.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, you know, like I said, I guess some people get some good deals.
[30:48.720 --> 30:51.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: Other things, people bid, and it gets expensive.
[30:53.300 --> 30:54.920]  [SPEAKER_06]: Anyway, interesting stuff to check out.
[30:55.020 --> 30:55.820]  [SPEAKER_04]: They sell cars, too?
[30:56.380 --> 30:56.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[30:56.900 --> 30:57.840]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, they sell the cars.
[30:57.960 --> 30:58.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: They sell bicycles.
[31:00.400 --> 31:00.980]  [SPEAKER_06]: Sporting goods.
[31:01.160 --> 31:01.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: Tools.
[31:02.000 --> 31:02.280]  [SPEAKER_04]: Mm-hmm.
[31:02.280 --> 31:04.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: And all sorts of strange stuff.
[31:04.440 --> 31:06.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: Medical equipment, heart monitors.
[31:07.520 --> 31:09.320]  [SPEAKER_04]: Somehow they got in the hands of the police.
[31:09.520 --> 31:10.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, yeah.
[31:10.220 --> 31:10.800]  [SPEAKER_04]: Heart monitors.
[31:11.320 --> 31:12.180]  [SPEAKER_04]: One has to wonder.
[31:12.880 --> 31:13.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[31:13.540 --> 31:20.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: So it'll be announced, always announced in the Times and the Daily News on the Sunday before the auction.
[31:20.920 --> 31:23.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, and like the Help Wanted section, they have announcements.
[31:23.940 --> 31:27.480]  [SPEAKER_04]: And don't forget those telephone company auctions happen every now and then, too.
[31:27.560 --> 31:29.860]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's how 2600 got its telephone company van.
[31:30.460 --> 31:31.740]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, never heard of that.
[31:31.740 --> 31:32.960]  [SPEAKER_04]: You can see at HOPE, actually.
[31:33.100 --> 31:34.480]  [SPEAKER_04]: We'll be playing around with that.
[31:34.600 --> 31:36.480]  [SPEAKER_04]: But, yeah, you can get all kinds of...
[31:36.480 --> 31:37.420]  [SPEAKER_04]: You can get cherry pickers.
[31:37.580 --> 31:40.560]  [SPEAKER_04]: You can get all kinds of trucks that they use.
[31:40.680 --> 31:41.140]  [SPEAKER_04]: Cars, too.
[31:41.300 --> 31:42.300]  [SPEAKER_04]: Regular phone company cars.
[31:43.180 --> 31:46.580]  [SPEAKER_04]: But the customer service reps really beat on those cars, so...
[31:46.580 --> 31:49.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, same with used city cars, I think they...
[31:49.100 --> 31:49.600]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[31:50.440 --> 31:52.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: But, anyway, just to pass that on...
[31:52.120 --> 31:52.400]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[31:52.580 --> 31:53.480]  [SPEAKER_04]: Good information.
[31:53.740 --> 31:54.000]  [SPEAKER_04]: Thank you.
[31:54.160 --> 31:54.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: Thank you.
[31:54.640 --> 31:54.940]  [SPEAKER_04]: All right.
[31:55.100 --> 31:55.420]  [SPEAKER_04]: Take care.
[32:02.600 --> 32:03.620]  [SPEAKER_07]: How are you doing tonight?
[32:03.800 --> 32:04.440]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, we're just fine.
[32:05.040 --> 32:10.880]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, a couple of things I want to make about the thing with the nationwide card for this.
[32:10.880 --> 32:13.140]  [SPEAKER_07]: I think the government should enforce the laws they have.
[32:13.240 --> 32:14.080]  [SPEAKER_07]: Totally against it.
[32:14.260 --> 32:16.860]  [SPEAKER_07]: Plus, I don't think they can do it because it goes against the Constitution.
[32:17.940 --> 32:19.200]  [SPEAKER_04]: What part of the Constitution?
[32:19.580 --> 32:25.500]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, the Constitution says you can't stop people and ask for an ID, except if you think they're committing a crime.
[32:26.600 --> 32:27.020]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh-huh.
[32:27.160 --> 32:32.280]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, these days, I think the government thinks we're all committing crimes, but what part of the Constitution is that?
[32:32.360 --> 32:38.360]  [SPEAKER_07]: I don't know which amendment it is, but if you're walking down the street and a cop would ask you for an ID, you don't have to show them an ID.
[32:38.940 --> 32:40.620]  [SPEAKER_07]: Only if there's a crime in progress.
[32:40.900 --> 32:42.940]  [SPEAKER_07]: Or he thinks you are involved in crime.
[32:43.020 --> 32:44.080]  [SPEAKER_07]: They just want to ask for an ID.
[32:44.240 --> 32:44.920]  [SPEAKER_07]: You can't do that.
[32:45.620 --> 32:45.880]  [SPEAKER_09]: Uh-huh.
[32:46.860 --> 32:48.320]  [SPEAKER_07]: Second thing is...
[32:48.980 --> 32:51.560]  [SPEAKER_07]: I heard the fellow talking about the pages last week.
[32:52.540 --> 32:53.420]  [SPEAKER_07]: And, uh...
[32:53.420 --> 32:57.780]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yes, there's some good programs out there that allow you to interface to an R7000.
[32:58.680 --> 33:02.480]  [SPEAKER_07]: And a computer will allow you to read off the various different codes.
[33:03.340 --> 33:04.120]  [SPEAKER_04]: Correct, yes.
[33:04.260 --> 33:06.360]  [SPEAKER_04]: We've been experimenting with that over the past week.
[33:06.800 --> 33:10.300]  [SPEAKER_04]: And about the only word we can use to describe it is information overload.
[33:10.520 --> 33:17.320]  [SPEAKER_04]: There's so much traffic out there that just trying to see what's going on, you have to be able to read at 9600 baud.
[33:17.320 --> 33:18.580]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, you gotta...
[33:19.100 --> 33:22.620]  [SPEAKER_07]: Basically, you gotta load it in and then pull it out as you...
[33:22.940 --> 33:24.620]  [SPEAKER_07]: Slowly, you can't do it real-time.
[33:24.760 --> 33:25.820]  [SPEAKER_07]: There's too much information.
[33:26.080 --> 33:27.140]  [SPEAKER_04]: Right, that's why you need a computer.
[33:27.300 --> 33:30.200]  [SPEAKER_04]: You have to sort of store the information, sort it, and then...
[33:30.200 --> 33:30.700]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's an old trick.
[33:30.840 --> 33:31.760]  [SPEAKER_07]: If you wanna find someone...
[33:31.760 --> 33:33.740]  [SPEAKER_07]: If you know somebody's page...
[33:33.740 --> 33:36.260]  [SPEAKER_07]: If you know somebody's page number...
[33:36.260 --> 33:37.480]  [SPEAKER_07]: You can find their cap code.
[33:37.580 --> 33:39.640]  [SPEAKER_07]: If you know what company they're within, you can listen to...
[33:39.640 --> 33:40.280]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, very easy.
[33:40.340 --> 33:42.520]  [SPEAKER_04]: You tune to the frequency, you beep them with a string...
[33:42.520 --> 33:44.600]  [SPEAKER_04]: And you look at the cap code next to the string...
[33:44.600 --> 33:44.840]  [SPEAKER_07]: Right.
[33:44.960 --> 33:45.520]  [SPEAKER_04]: And you...
[33:45.520 --> 33:46.160]  [SPEAKER_07]: How many people are?
[33:53.080 --> 34:00.980]  [SPEAKER_04]: I have a Kenwood R-2000, is what I have.
[34:05.280 --> 34:06.640]  [SPEAKER_04]: We'll have some of it, yes.
[34:06.820 --> 34:07.660]  [SPEAKER_04]: In fact, we'll have quite a bit.
[34:08.260 --> 34:12.640]  [SPEAKER_04]: People like Mr. Icom, Bernie S, they're coming and they're bringing all kinds of equipment, so...
[34:12.640 --> 34:13.460]  [SPEAKER_07]: The time is to start.
[34:14.260 --> 34:18.160]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, the actual conference begins at noon on Saturday.
[34:18.400 --> 34:22.460]  [SPEAKER_04]: However, registration will be before then, about 10 o'clock, I would imagine.
[34:23.500 --> 34:29.780]  [SPEAKER_04]: And if you're setting up with the network, the Ethernet, or want to help out technically, you come by Friday night, any time after 5 p.m.
[34:29.780 --> 34:33.480]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's at the Hotel Pennsylvania on 7th Avenue and 33rd.
[34:33.720 --> 34:34.480]  [SPEAKER_07]: Nice stop, boy.
[34:34.520 --> 34:35.220]  [SPEAKER_07]: I'm a ham operator.
[34:35.580 --> 34:35.840]  [SPEAKER_04]: Great.
[34:35.940 --> 34:37.580]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, we can certainly use people like that.
[34:37.720 --> 34:38.020]  [SPEAKER_07]: All right.
[34:38.360 --> 34:39.100]  [SPEAKER_04]: All right, thanks for calling.
[34:39.240 --> 34:39.980]  [SPEAKER_07]: Good job, by the way.
[34:40.100 --> 34:40.400]  [SPEAKER_04]: Thank you.
[34:40.560 --> 34:40.740]  [SPEAKER_04]: Bye.
[34:40.860 --> 34:41.140]  [SPEAKER_04]: Take care.
[34:42.120 --> 34:42.880]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's amazing.
[34:44.080 --> 34:51.900]  [SPEAKER_04]: We've been having meetings as far as this conference goes, and it's just incredible how many people are out there and what they have access to.
[34:52.260 --> 34:54.380]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's what the whole hacking community is all about.
[34:54.440 --> 35:05.600]  [SPEAKER_04]: People have access to these huge machines that you wouldn't expect human beings to own, and reams of cable and just technical knowledge that is absolutely unbelievable.
[35:05.600 --> 35:08.680]  [SPEAKER_04]: So when we put all that together, it's going to be something.
[35:09.240 --> 35:10.900]  [SPEAKER_04]: Better than Woodstock, I can tell you that.
[35:11.620 --> 35:13.920]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, better than the new Woodstock, anyway.
[35:14.060 --> 35:14.320]  [SPEAKER_04]: Good evening.
[35:14.380 --> 35:14.780]  [SPEAKER_04]: You're on the air.
[35:15.420 --> 35:15.700]  [SPEAKER_02]: Hi.
[35:16.040 --> 35:16.460]  [SPEAKER_02]: How are you doing?
[35:16.460 --> 35:32.160]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm calling to find out if there's any information about bands putting out their music through computers and the telephone lines, and that possibly taking over the recording industry.
[35:32.160 --> 35:42.460]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, I do know that with various mediums such as digital audio tape, you can bypass record company distribution entirely.
[35:42.940 --> 35:55.460]  [SPEAKER_04]: And certainly when this whole ISDN information superhighway thing gets to the individual level, people theoretically will be able to do things like send video, send audio very easily.
[35:55.700 --> 35:59.220]  [SPEAKER_04]: You know, not the clumsy way we do it today, but extremely...
[35:59.220 --> 36:06.420]  [SPEAKER_04]: You want the new Stone Temple Pilots album, you just simply send it over the phone line and you get it in digital sound.
[36:06.660 --> 36:15.920]  [SPEAKER_04]: Now, that can be a problem if you're looking to make a profit off each and every individual copy that is sold out there, and you look upon this as a threat.
[36:15.920 --> 36:26.100]  [SPEAKER_04]: However, it can be the greatest thing imaginable to a band that's starting out and has no record company distribution, or has had a fight with a record company, or doesn't get along with MTV.
[36:26.820 --> 36:31.540]  [SPEAKER_04]: You simply distribute it on the net yourself, and people who want to get it, get it.
[36:32.100 --> 36:34.240]  [SPEAKER_02]: So you don't know of anyone that's doing that yet?
[36:34.520 --> 36:35.360]  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know.
[36:35.500 --> 36:37.420]  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm sure people are experimenting with it.
[36:37.480 --> 36:47.880]  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know specifically of people that are doing that, but I'm sure it's happening, and I'm sure it's going to happen a lot more, and it's going to be very difficult not to have that happen if this technology keeps progressing.
[36:48.820 --> 36:49.180]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.
[36:49.560 --> 36:49.900]  [SPEAKER_04]: All right?
[36:50.040 --> 36:50.360]  [SPEAKER_04]: Thank you.
[36:50.560 --> 36:51.100]  [SPEAKER_04]: Thanks for calling.
[36:51.260 --> 36:51.360]  [SPEAKER_04]: Bye.
[36:52.000 --> 36:53.620]  [SPEAKER_04]: There's always two sides to these things.
[36:53.840 --> 36:55.060]  [SPEAKER_04]: People will say, well, that's a threat.
[36:55.060 --> 36:57.860]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's a threat to our profits and everything like that.
[36:57.900 --> 37:03.500]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's not a threat, though, if you always have a way of making people want to get the original.
[37:03.500 --> 37:04.320]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's like software.
[37:05.120 --> 37:11.500]  [SPEAKER_04]: And what we're sort of moving into is a world where data can be copied, and everything is data.
[37:11.620 --> 37:12.380]  [SPEAKER_04]: Everything is digital.
[37:13.700 --> 37:22.240]  [SPEAKER_04]: Now, does that mean that we have to somehow figure out ways of imposing fees for copying everything, from music to video to the latest version of WordPerfect?
[37:22.980 --> 37:23.680]  [SPEAKER_04]: We can.
[37:23.820 --> 37:24.700]  [SPEAKER_04]: We can try to do that.
[37:24.840 --> 37:25.880]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's going to be a losing battle.
[37:26.400 --> 37:32.860]  [SPEAKER_04]: Or we can try and make it so that a lot of people have access, and those that can afford to and want the originals will buy them.
[37:33.500 --> 37:39.960]  [SPEAKER_04]: And hopefully everybody is kept in business, and everybody has access, not only to receive, but to send information.
[37:40.360 --> 37:40.940]  [SPEAKER_04]: Good evening.
[37:41.060 --> 37:41.400]  [SPEAKER_04]: You're on the air.
[37:42.200 --> 37:42.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: Hello?
[37:42.860 --> 37:43.380]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, go ahead.
[37:44.000 --> 37:44.240]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[37:44.940 --> 37:47.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, I'd like to discuss a CIX with you on the net.
[37:48.500 --> 37:49.020]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
[37:49.240 --> 37:49.760]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[37:49.820 --> 37:51.300]  [SPEAKER_04]: Why don't you explain that to us?
[37:51.520 --> 37:51.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[37:52.120 --> 37:55.320]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, it's something called, if I'm not mistaken, the Commercial Internet Exchange.
[37:55.920 --> 37:56.380]  [SPEAKER_04]: Correct.
[37:56.820 --> 38:06.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: And apparently it's a number of fairly large internet providers that have gotten together and decided to charge for use of the net on a flat rate basis.
[38:06.800 --> 38:08.600]  [SPEAKER_04]: I believe an extra $10,000 a year?
[38:08.600 --> 38:09.760]  [SPEAKER_05]: That is my understanding.
[38:09.980 --> 38:10.320]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[38:10.620 --> 38:18.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: What I'm wondering is, what do you think about the possibility of thinking of these companies in terms of a utility?
[38:18.340 --> 38:33.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: And they're basically tolling what should be a national highway, so to speak, and taking private tolls off anybody who wants to use it, if they want to get on this supposed national highway.
[38:34.160 --> 38:38.240]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, you see, the problem with utilities is that they inherently don't have any competition.
[38:38.740 --> 38:45.320]  [SPEAKER_04]: You see, and there's only one utility, a cable TV company, a water company, a gas company, and you're stuck with them.
[38:45.760 --> 38:50.660]  [SPEAKER_04]: So I don't know if that's the right road to take, to think of internet providers as utilities.
[38:51.180 --> 38:56.420]  [SPEAKER_04]: I think you'll get better service and more varied service by having lots of different ones.
[38:56.420 --> 39:01.580]  [SPEAKER_04]: But that doesn't mean we have to cripple them with excessive fees like this.
[39:02.260 --> 39:04.640]  [SPEAKER_04]: Because the smaller companies are going to be paying...
[39:04.640 --> 39:05.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: Are they not inviting regulation?
[39:07.060 --> 39:08.700]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, they very well might be.
[39:08.840 --> 39:10.620]  [SPEAKER_04]: But certainly the smaller companies aren't.
[39:11.320 --> 39:16.060]  [SPEAKER_04]: You know, the smaller companies have to pay this $10,000 as well as the huge companies like CompuServe.
[39:16.200 --> 39:17.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: Which makes it extremely...
[39:17.300 --> 39:18.440]  [SPEAKER_05]: Basically, they're protecting their turf.
[39:18.540 --> 39:20.180]  [SPEAKER_05]: That means smaller companies can't get started.
[39:20.640 --> 39:27.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's a big one that can afford the $10,000 that'll pay and happily be on it and keep all the small ones from forming new competitive forces.
[39:28.180 --> 39:28.460]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's right.
[39:28.540 --> 39:31.280]  [SPEAKER_04]: This could be the beginning of the end of what the internet was all about.
[39:31.460 --> 39:34.520]  [SPEAKER_04]: I certainly hope not, and I think there should be a strong reaction against this.
[39:35.140 --> 39:42.460]  [SPEAKER_05]: But of course, that means basically taking over, in a sense, private lines and, in a sense, nationalizing them.
[39:43.200 --> 39:43.700]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh-huh.
[39:43.860 --> 39:45.020]  [SPEAKER_05]: Which is rather un-American.
[39:45.360 --> 39:46.260]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it's...
[39:46.260 --> 39:48.620]  [SPEAKER_04]: You run into some sticky issues on that, I know.
[39:50.040 --> 39:56.640]  [SPEAKER_04]: But this is something where, for the first time, individual people have access to something that's virtually unlimited.
[39:57.360 --> 40:00.100]  [SPEAKER_04]: And I don't know what the big push is to limit it, you know?
[40:00.520 --> 40:03.260]  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, who is not happy with the way it is now?
[40:03.360 --> 40:10.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: The commons problem, if it's free and totally free to everyone, then eventually it becomes polluted and overused.
[40:11.100 --> 40:27.640]  [SPEAKER_05]: So, in a sense, some charge maybe down the road would be necessary, but it should be metered in some sense, so that you can't just pump megabytes, huge megabytes onto the net.
[40:27.840 --> 40:28.280]  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know.
[40:28.320 --> 40:33.540]  [SPEAKER_04]: To me, it seems like an attempt to control something which they're afraid of.
[40:33.800 --> 40:37.520]  [SPEAKER_04]: They don't know where it's going to go, and they don't want to watch and see where it goes.
[40:37.520 --> 40:41.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, the CIX is clearly an attempt to throttle the competition.
[40:43.240 --> 40:47.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: Big boys are getting together, and they're going to make it our little club and not let anyone else in, essentially.
[40:48.180 --> 40:49.940]  [SPEAKER_04]: Have you seen any organized opposition to this?
[40:50.180 --> 40:50.740]  [SPEAKER_05]: Not really.
[40:51.060 --> 40:52.620]  [SPEAKER_04]: I haven't either, and I'm wondering why not.
[40:53.760 --> 40:54.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, it's the little guys.
[40:55.860 --> 40:58.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: There may not be enough of them out there that know about it yet.
[40:59.660 --> 41:01.360]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, I think word is spreading.
[41:01.580 --> 41:02.500]  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, I've heard about this.
[41:02.580 --> 41:03.900]  [SPEAKER_04]: I have not heard about this from the big guys.
[41:03.900 --> 41:05.060]  [SPEAKER_04]: I've heard about it from the little guys.
[41:05.060 --> 41:14.780]  [SPEAKER_05]: The little guys can't do anything about it, because you need some kind of regulation to force the issue, because otherwise it's private property, and they're well within their rights to do whatever they want on their own lines.
[41:18.100 --> 41:20.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: Anyways, I just thought I'd put it out for discussion.
[41:21.480 --> 41:22.240]  [SPEAKER_05]: Thank you very much.
[41:22.780 --> 41:23.740]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, thanks for calling.
[41:23.860 --> 41:24.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, then.
[41:24.560 --> 41:24.740]  Bye-bye.
[41:25.660 --> 41:27.120]  [SPEAKER_04]: Actually, we have a little guy here.
[41:29.680 --> 41:33.760]  [SPEAKER_04]: The owner-operator of escape.com, Roman Kazan.
[41:33.760 --> 41:34.820]  [SPEAKER_04]: How does this affect you?
[41:35.360 --> 41:37.660]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, we're all going to have to pay $10,000 a year.
[41:37.820 --> 41:39.920]  [SPEAKER_14]: Our routing will be turned off to the entire internet.
[41:40.640 --> 41:42.380]  [SPEAKER_04]: When you say all, you mean us.
[41:42.400 --> 41:43.320]  [SPEAKER_04]: You mean companies.
[41:43.320 --> 41:49.800]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, to the other, like, let's say Netcom is part of this, CIX, as well as other large companies.
[41:49.980 --> 41:52.000]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, Netcom has 10,000 million users.
[41:52.140 --> 41:56.560]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, and, well, our routing will be turned off to those companies also.
[41:57.140 --> 42:01.540]  [SPEAKER_14]: Basically, their network, our companies, our users won't be able to connect to.
[42:01.540 --> 42:09.420]  [SPEAKER_04]: I see, so what they're saying is that all the small people can stay together, but if you want to talk to the big guys, you've got to pay $10,000.
[42:09.640 --> 42:10.060]  [SPEAKER_14]: That's correct.
[42:10.640 --> 42:11.580]  [SPEAKER_04]: What about the big guys?
[42:11.660 --> 42:13.240]  [SPEAKER_04]: Do they have to pay to contact you guys?
[42:13.500 --> 42:14.360]  [SPEAKER_14]: They have to pay $10,000.
[42:15.100 --> 42:16.440]  [SPEAKER_14]: But they don't pay any more.
[42:16.440 --> 42:23.800]  [SPEAKER_14]: $10,000 means nothing to them, since, you know, $10,000 means a lot more to me than it means to a multi-million dollar company.
[42:24.200 --> 42:27.940]  [SPEAKER_14]: There is rumor that they are going to lower the price to people who use less bandwidth.
[42:28.800 --> 42:31.240]  [SPEAKER_04]: What's to stop them from making $20,000 next year?
[42:32.240 --> 42:33.740]  [SPEAKER_14]: There's rumors that it's going down, though.
[42:34.760 --> 42:37.420]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, well, I don't think it's a very good sign.
[42:38.280 --> 42:38.940]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's scary.
[42:39.200 --> 42:42.300]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it's very scary, especially with people like you running businesses like this.
[42:42.420 --> 42:44.620]  [SPEAKER_14]: When I first heard about it, I was very scared.
[42:44.840 --> 42:46.100]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I remember that night.
[42:46.780 --> 42:47.440]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, okay.
[42:48.200 --> 42:49.740]  [SPEAKER_04]: Thanks for filling us in on that.
[42:49.900 --> 42:52.220]  [SPEAKER_04]: And people keep an eye on that, because that's the kind of thing.
[42:52.300 --> 42:56.040]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's the kind of thing that could be a threat to the way things are now.
[42:58.240 --> 43:01.020]  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, a lot of us don't yet have access to the way things are now.
[43:01.120 --> 43:03.660]  [SPEAKER_04]: We kind of like it to stay that way so that you do get access.
[43:05.160 --> 43:10.300]  [SPEAKER_04]: And that's one of the things we're going to try to do at the conference is give people access.
[43:10.620 --> 43:18.460]  [SPEAKER_04]: In other words, what's going to happen is everybody that comes to the conference will walk in, and they'll get an Internet address, which will be good for two days, on the HOPENet machine.
[43:18.760 --> 43:22.940]  [SPEAKER_04]: You can basically do Internet things and see what it's like.
[43:23.700 --> 43:26.400]  [SPEAKER_04]: And then decide for yourself whether that's what you want.
[43:26.540 --> 43:29.860]  [SPEAKER_04]: Or whether you want something where you pay more money and have less services.
[43:30.080 --> 43:30.540]  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know.
[43:30.580 --> 43:31.460]  [SPEAKER_04]: But then again, I'm biased.
[43:32.160 --> 43:32.760]  [SPEAKER_04]: Good evening.
[43:32.840 --> 43:33.200]  [SPEAKER_04]: You're on the air.
[43:33.840 --> 43:34.600]  [SPEAKER_15]: Hi, Emmanuel.
[43:34.600 --> 43:36.880]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'm a live subscriber, but a first-time listener.
[43:36.880 --> 43:38.080]  [SPEAKER_15]: I really love the show.
[43:38.340 --> 43:38.840]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, thanks.
[43:39.020 --> 43:40.340]  [SPEAKER_15]: A couple of comments.
[43:40.540 --> 43:53.400]  [SPEAKER_15]: One about a previous caller who was talking about the Constitution prohibiting a national ID card, what I think he's slightly misremembering is a Supreme Court case from about five years ago.
[43:54.160 --> 44:00.500]  [SPEAKER_15]: The police stopped, I believe, in California, a guy in dreadlocks and asked him for ID and when he couldn't...
[44:00.500 --> 44:01.320]  [SPEAKER_04]: I remember that guy.
[44:01.480 --> 44:03.380]  [SPEAKER_04]: It was a sus law of some sort, right?
[44:03.860 --> 44:04.880]  [SPEAKER_15]: I don't really know.
[44:05.060 --> 44:06.220]  [SPEAKER_04]: Suspicion of something.
[44:06.340 --> 44:07.480]  [SPEAKER_04]: Suspicion of doing something.
[44:07.640 --> 44:09.580]  [SPEAKER_04]: This is the guy that walked around his neighborhood all the time.
[44:09.740 --> 44:11.340]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, I believe that was it.
[44:11.460 --> 44:16.380]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, and when he couldn't produce ID, they cuffed him, locked him up overnight or something along those lines.
[44:16.920 --> 44:21.140]  [SPEAKER_15]: And essentially, the Supreme Court ruled that non-possession of an ID is not a crime.
[44:23.520 --> 44:25.820]  [SPEAKER_15]: But yeah, Frank...
[44:37.110 --> 44:42.510]  [SPEAKER_15]: And incidentally, we'll be there Friday before the conference to help you guys set up a couple other things.
[44:43.170 --> 44:57.250]  [SPEAKER_15]: A follow-up on a letter that you published of mine from a couple years ago on making phone calls from dedicated telephones such as that you find in airports to dial hotels and limos.
[44:57.350 --> 44:57.990]  [SPEAKER_04]: Bank phones?
[44:58.150 --> 44:59.330]  [SPEAKER_15]: Bank phones, yes.
[45:00.170 --> 45:08.850]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'm probably responsible for Citibank changing their entire phone system, which they're doing branch by branch lately.
[45:10.130 --> 45:19.810]  [SPEAKER_15]: Two years ago, when some other correspondent first reported this, I realized that Citibank had that sort of phone and exploited it mercilessly.
[45:19.950 --> 45:25.470]  [SPEAKER_15]: And I'd like to apologize to anybody else who used them that I'm now screwing over because of Citibank changing their phones.
[45:25.990 --> 45:28.150]  [SPEAKER_04]: Don't you think you should be apologizing to Citibank?
[45:29.330 --> 45:31.230]  [SPEAKER_04]: Come on, they're out there, they're listening, they're waiting.
[45:31.550 --> 45:38.350]  [SPEAKER_15]: No, frankly, my girlfriend used to work for them and in a rather high position and she got screwed over soundly by them.
[45:39.090 --> 45:43.030]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'd rather not go into details because it could identify her and thereby me, but...
[45:43.030 --> 45:46.410]  [SPEAKER_04]: No, I think they have so many people that they screwed over, I don't think they'd ever identify them.
[45:47.210 --> 46:04.450]  [SPEAKER_15]: And finally, I have a question sort of about the HOPE conference, which is, I've been reading ALT 2600 on the net and there's a fairly, well, there's some interest in MetroCard, the New York City Transit Authority's new fare card.
[46:04.530 --> 46:04.890]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's right.
[46:04.890 --> 46:10.190]  [SPEAKER_15]: And I was wondering, are you going to have any experts there speaking about it?
[46:10.390 --> 46:18.210]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, we've gathered some information, we have some data, some technical manuals of various sorts that we've obtained.
[46:18.990 --> 46:23.290]  [SPEAKER_04]: And we're going to have people look at them and try to analyze the system and see if it's a secure system.
[46:23.290 --> 46:27.110]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, okay, do you have anyone who actually works for the Transit Authority?
[46:27.430 --> 46:28.750]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, not as of yet.
[46:28.970 --> 46:29.550]  [SPEAKER_15]: You do now.
[46:29.550 --> 46:36.670]  [SPEAKER_15]: I happen to be, uh, a railroad clerk, which is what, uh, the average public talks about as token sellers.
[46:36.810 --> 46:37.090]  [SPEAKER_04]: Wow.
[46:37.510 --> 46:39.790]  [SPEAKER_15]: And I work at a MetroCard station.
[46:39.830 --> 46:42.110]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'm not about to identify myself further.
[46:42.290 --> 46:44.250]  [SPEAKER_04]: Boy, I've been waiting for a call like this.
[46:44.370 --> 46:46.630]  [SPEAKER_04]: So you actually, you sort of make the MetroCard.
[46:46.690 --> 46:47.950]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, more or less, yeah.
[46:48.130 --> 46:48.370]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh-huh.
[46:48.510 --> 46:52.190]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, and there's a lot of misinformation on ALT 2600 about it.
[46:52.290 --> 46:53.170]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, fill us in.
[46:53.290 --> 46:53.830]  [SPEAKER_04]: Please, we're listening.
[46:54.030 --> 46:59.950]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, the most common, uh, misconception, uh, is, first of all, no, no passback.
[47:00.170 --> 47:03.790]  [SPEAKER_15]: That was an original feature, uh, but they eliminated that.
[47:03.890 --> 47:10.350]  [SPEAKER_15]: What passback is, is you use it once, and then you pass it to someone else and use it again.
[47:10.790 --> 47:19.530]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, if, if it's on an unlimited basis, in other words, a card good for, uh, a month, a week, a year, that makes sense.
[47:19.530 --> 47:32.350]  [SPEAKER_15]: But since MetroCard is on a cost-per-ride basis, you put X amount of dollars on the card, and each time you go through the turnstiles, it takes $1.25 off, uh, that makes no sense.
[47:32.510 --> 47:37.670]  [SPEAKER_15]: In fact, MetroCard is convenient for people who would go traveling with a group or with their family.
[47:38.190 --> 47:43.130]  [SPEAKER_15]: So, the passback feature, uh, the no passback feature is non-existent.
[47:43.250 --> 47:49.410]  [SPEAKER_04]: You know, I've noticed that when I use a MetroCard, for some reason, people have no difficulty at all saying, oh, could you swipe that again for me, please?
[47:49.650 --> 47:56.490]  [SPEAKER_04]: You know, it's like, you don't give them a token, but, uh, for some reason, swiping the card twice, they don't think of that as, as you're giving them $1.25.
[47:57.910 --> 48:00.890]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, what you are doing is exactly that.
[48:01.110 --> 48:01.950]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it does work.
[48:02.010 --> 48:08.670]  [SPEAKER_04]: But how about the thing where you, you swipe it too fast once on one token, or one turnstile, you go to the next one, you get charged twice?
[48:08.870 --> 48:13.110]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, that, there are, there are innumerable software glitches in it.
[48:13.610 --> 48:20.530]  [SPEAKER_15]: Um, the best one is when, uh, the bulk of the stations went online on the same day.
[48:20.530 --> 48:37.150]  [SPEAKER_15]: Um, and, uh, it turns out that due to a programming error, if you signed on more than one person simultaneously, you're supposed to be able to sign several railroad clerks on at once on your token booth computer, uh, to allow them to encode fare cards,
[48:37.290 --> 48:43.810]  [SPEAKER_15]: each on their, their own account, uh, because as the public also doesn't know, railroad clerks are responsible for, for their own monies.
[48:43.830 --> 48:48.690]  [SPEAKER_15]: If we're short, you're not screwing the transit authority by screwing us, you're screwing us personally.
[48:48.690 --> 49:05.670]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, so, consequently, they keep the accounts separate, uh, but the early software glitch was that if more than one railroad clerk signed on the token booth computer before a certain date, it, it froze the computer completely.
[49:05.670 --> 49:09.710]  [SPEAKER_15]: You could not encode cards, decode cards, anything.
[49:11.530 --> 49:14.250]  [SPEAKER_04]: Boy, that's, uh, that, that still doesn't happen, though.
[49:14.470 --> 49:17.730]  [SPEAKER_15]: That, yeah, that was, that was, uh, uh, a time flaw.
[49:17.990 --> 49:24.770]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, they, they, they, they, they, they contacted us and said, you'll be able to do this after a certain date and time, don't do it beforehand.
[49:25.350 --> 49:33.070]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, uh, there, there are many, many, many other flaws, uh, in it, uh, which are just too innumerable to mention.
[49:33.390 --> 49:36.690]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, the computer, uh, itself is rather interesting.
[49:36.690 --> 49:39.030]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's in a stainless steel, steel case.
[49:39.350 --> 49:43.050]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, it has what looks to be standard cables coming out.
[49:43.550 --> 49:47.770]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, but there's no way to get to any sort of prompt.
[49:48.210 --> 49:50.870]  [SPEAKER_15]: And in fact, there's no way to sign on by keyboard only.
[49:51.330 --> 49:58.190]  [SPEAKER_15]: Signing on is done by, by a MetroCard-like card in the possession of the railroad clerk or supervisor.
[49:58.770 --> 50:10.870]  [SPEAKER_15]: And in fact, supervisors and technicians, uh, there are two, uh, keyholes on the token booth computer, uh, one for each, which allows them to access a different set of menus.
[50:12.190 --> 50:14.190]  [SPEAKER_04]: Do they have to hold the keys at the same time?
[50:14.390 --> 50:16.250]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, no, no, no, no, no, uh, like on Star Trek?
[50:16.350 --> 50:17.070]  [SPEAKER_15]: One keyhole, no.
[50:17.170 --> 50:24.690]  [SPEAKER_15]: One keyhole for, uh, for, uh, supervisors to access the supervisor's menu, which allows them limited things, and a different keyhole.
[50:24.790 --> 50:25.130]  [SPEAKER_04]: I see.
[50:25.290 --> 50:35.330]  [SPEAKER_15]: For the technician to access, uh, the, uh, his, his menu and also allows him to open up the, the stainless steel case.
[50:35.510 --> 50:45.550]  [SPEAKER_04]: Now, when you actually, uh, when someone comes to you and says they want a MetroCard, uh, without giving us specific passwords or anything like that, what is it that you wind up typing on the, uh, on the display there?
[50:45.590 --> 50:47.870]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay, uh, there's really no password.
[50:48.230 --> 50:58.950]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, uh, when you sign on, uh, you swipe a MetroCard-like card, an employee card, and then the computer will ask you for your PIN number.
[50:59.250 --> 51:11.810]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, once you do that, uh, you then go to the Fair Card menu, you re-enter your PIN number, and at that point, if you stay in that menu, uh, you can access as many cards as you like.
[51:11.970 --> 51:16.670]  [SPEAKER_15]: In fact, they tell clerks, if you go to the bathroom, if you go out to lunch, make sure you get out of that menu.
[51:16.850 --> 51:30.010]  [SPEAKER_15]: Otherwise, the other clerk in the booth, your lunch relief, or anybody else who happens to be left in the booth, because booths are never left unmanned if they're open, uh, anybody else can encode as many Fair Cards as they like.
[51:30.770 --> 51:32.210]  [SPEAKER_15]: Millions and billions, theoretically.
[51:32.810 --> 51:33.030]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh-huh.
[51:34.190 --> 51:39.590]  [SPEAKER_04]: So, okay, so you, you're saying that you swipe two cards and you swipe a MasterCard?
[51:39.690 --> 51:41.870]  [SPEAKER_15]: One card originally, uh, when you come in.
[51:42.570 --> 51:49.130]  [SPEAKER_15]: And then as people come up and say, give me a MetroCard for five, give me a MetroCard for ten bucks, you swipe their card to encode it.
[51:49.290 --> 51:51.850]  [SPEAKER_04]: So do you only swipe your card at the very beginning of your shift?
[51:51.950 --> 51:53.050]  [SPEAKER_15]: Your card at the very beginning.
[51:53.330 --> 51:53.850]  [SPEAKER_04]: I see.
[51:53.910 --> 51:55.430]  [SPEAKER_04]: So you don't do that every time you have a customer?
[51:55.630 --> 51:56.230]  [SPEAKER_15]: No, you don't.
[51:56.450 --> 51:56.810]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[51:57.190 --> 52:05.070]  [SPEAKER_04]: So then, okay, you take a card out of the stack, and these cards all have those numbers printed on them already, the, uh, the serial numbers and the batch numbers?
[52:05.210 --> 52:15.970]  [SPEAKER_15]: They, they have, they have printed on the back, printed, physically, visibly printed, uh, expiration date, uh, serial number, and a batch number.
[52:16.750 --> 52:30.850]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, encoded on them are the, uh, type of card, whether it's, uh, pre-encoded for $15 or whether it's non-pre-encoded, Which is a fancy way of saying blank.
[52:32.470 --> 52:33.450]  [SPEAKER_15]: Expiration date.
[52:33.770 --> 52:34.750]  [SPEAKER_15]: Type of card.
[52:35.050 --> 52:35.950]  [SPEAKER_15]: Serial number.
[52:36.670 --> 52:39.230]  [SPEAKER_15]: And information on its last use.
[52:40.250 --> 52:57.170]  [SPEAKER_15]: As MetroCard users will know, if you go to the MetroCard reader or passenger information unit, the freestanding narrow metal boxes near the token booths and swipe your card through, it will tell you where you were last at and at what time and date.
[52:57.170 --> 52:59.570]  [SPEAKER_04]: Actually, it doesn't do that unless the card is expired.
[52:59.830 --> 53:00.410]  [SPEAKER_15]: Oh, really?
[53:00.410 --> 53:00.990]  [SPEAKER_15]: It doesn't?
[53:01.270 --> 53:07.630]  [SPEAKER_04]: Because we got our hands on an employee card that was expired that was basically a free pass.
[53:07.970 --> 53:08.690]  [SPEAKER_04]: You could use any time.
[53:08.810 --> 53:11.930]  [SPEAKER_04]: But it expired and it told us when the last use was.
[53:12.130 --> 53:14.590]  [SPEAKER_04]: But on a card that's current, it simply tells you the value.
[53:14.710 --> 53:18.810]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's fascinating because that employee card... no employee card should have been expired.
[53:19.990 --> 53:21.410]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's a white card, is it not?
[53:21.430 --> 53:22.450]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it was a white card.
[53:22.450 --> 53:23.090]  [SPEAKER_15]: Oh, okay.
[53:23.230 --> 53:24.910]  [SPEAKER_15]: You may not have gotten an employee card.
[53:25.070 --> 53:27.810]  [SPEAKER_15]: You may have gotten a card out of the training center.
[53:27.990 --> 53:28.890]  [SPEAKER_15]: They look identical.
[53:29.230 --> 53:30.770]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, I can tell you exactly what it said.
[53:30.910 --> 53:32.390]  [SPEAKER_04]: Actually, I seem to have lost it.
[53:32.470 --> 53:33.250]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, I have it somewhere.
[53:33.470 --> 53:35.070]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, we can discuss this at HOPE.
[53:35.270 --> 53:37.410]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I'm sure we'll have lengthy discussions about this.
[53:37.550 --> 53:37.750]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah.
[53:39.110 --> 53:45.330]  [SPEAKER_04]: But is there anything that would indicate to you that... you mentioned that some cards are already encoded with the value?
[53:45.330 --> 53:48.370]  [SPEAKER_15]: You can get $15 cards.
[53:48.370 --> 53:50.390]  [SPEAKER_15]: They're wrapped up in plastic.
[53:50.690 --> 53:57.230]  [SPEAKER_15]: And in fact, the Transit Authority, since in about four years, they're supposed to get off of tokens and onto fair cards entirely.
[53:57.410 --> 53:57.630]  [SPEAKER_09]: Right.
[53:57.830 --> 54:04.750]  [SPEAKER_15]: They're trying to sell them in non-transit outlets, coffee shops, newspaper stands, etc.
[54:06.370 --> 54:06.950]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh-huh.
[54:07.270 --> 54:09.890]  [SPEAKER_04]: So, I mean, the plan is to go away from tokens entirely.
[54:10.170 --> 54:10.990]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, we realize that.
[54:11.210 --> 54:11.350]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.
[54:11.550 --> 54:30.570]  [SPEAKER_04]: But the theory we're kicking around here is that when you pick up the card and you slide it through the machine, you're not actually encoding the card, but you're simply sending that serial number to whatever computer it is that keeps track of all this and assigning a value to it.
[54:30.570 --> 54:36.830]  [SPEAKER_04]: And then whenever you use that card, it checks that number and says, okay, this amount of money is attached to that number.
[54:36.910 --> 54:37.750]  [SPEAKER_04]: Does that sound reasonable?
[54:37.970 --> 54:40.930]  [SPEAKER_15]: There is some evidence for that.
[54:41.470 --> 54:51.450]  [SPEAKER_15]: There recently have been a number of promotions whereby they handed out blank fair cards to passengers.
[54:52.130 --> 55:05.550]  [SPEAKER_15]: And the idea was that if you would actually encode the card and use it in that station, they would post the next week a list of serial numbers and you'd win either a $100 or a $25 MetroCard.
[55:06.510 --> 55:17.190]  [SPEAKER_15]: But the thing was, you had to either do both of those, or allegedly do both of those, they told you to do both of those, or you had to write on a postcard the serial number.
[55:17.190 --> 55:26.130]  [SPEAKER_15]: So there's some evidence that the serial number is transmitted to a central computer.
[55:26.850 --> 55:48.630]  [SPEAKER_15]: There are a lot of rumors floating around in the TA that if you say, for example, identically encode two cards, in other words, use yourself a card reader writer, identically encode two cards, and use one, and then attempt to use the second one, that it will be rejected.
[55:48.870 --> 55:53.810]  [SPEAKER_15]: However, there's no empirical evidence that I know of, and the source is nebulous at best.
[55:53.970 --> 55:58.210]  [SPEAKER_04]: We have yet to be able to successfully read one of these cards.
[55:58.370 --> 56:00.770]  [SPEAKER_04]: It's using some kind of strange format we're not familiar with.
[56:01.210 --> 56:03.490]  [SPEAKER_04]: So if you know anybody that knows how to read these...
[56:03.490 --> 56:09.270]  [SPEAKER_15]: Can I suggest that you don't necessarily have to know how to read it?
[56:09.350 --> 56:12.850]  [SPEAKER_15]: I presume it's not encrypted, it's just in a weird format.
[56:14.230 --> 56:22.170]  [SPEAKER_15]: All you really need to have is a sample space with some regular information on it.
[56:24.350 --> 56:32.210]  [SPEAKER_15]: May I suggest that what you do is simply go to a booth with a stack of $5 bills, and buy... do this overnight.
[56:32.510 --> 56:33.990]  [SPEAKER_15]: I mean, we are busy at times.
[56:35.050 --> 56:37.730]  [SPEAKER_15]: And just buy $5 Metro cards.
[56:37.730 --> 56:41.770]  [SPEAKER_15]: If you have any luck, they'll have consecutive serial numbers on them.
[56:41.850 --> 56:42.470]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's true, they will.
[56:42.850 --> 56:54.510]  [SPEAKER_15]: And although the time field will be different, and hopefully you'll be able to pick it out one way or another, there will be only a limited number of different pieces of information on the card.
[56:55.110 --> 57:00.410]  [SPEAKER_15]: So you'll be able to figure out, to some extent, at least a little more information off it.
[57:00.510 --> 57:12.470]  [SPEAKER_04]: And if the theory that the card is never actually written to is correct, then the time thing is actually in the computer and won't be written to the card, so the only thing there will be the serial number, the batch number, maybe the expiration date.
[57:12.470 --> 57:35.830]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, when a card is read either by the clerk in the booth to add money to it, or by the passenger at the little swipe thing right outside the clerk's window, in order to check after money has been added, only a limited field comes up.
[57:36.530 --> 57:46.330]  [SPEAKER_15]: Expiration date, last use, if any, type of card, either pre-encoded with $15 or non-pre-encoded, which means it was encoded in the booth.
[57:47.550 --> 57:51.930]  [SPEAKER_15]: There's a field that says bus slash subway, and it always says three.
[57:52.130 --> 57:53.250]  [SPEAKER_15]: I have no idea what that means.
[57:54.030 --> 57:55.190]  [SPEAKER_15]: There's a couple other fields.
[57:55.310 --> 58:00.090]  [SPEAKER_15]: I might take some Polaroids of the computer screen and show those around at HOPE.
[58:00.490 --> 58:00.810]  [SPEAKER_04]: Great.
[58:01.210 --> 58:05.390]  [SPEAKER_04]: There's also a theory going around that the magnetic strip is not actually a magnetic strip.
[58:05.390 --> 58:07.550]  [SPEAKER_04]: I know we tried to erase it here, and we couldn't do it.
[58:08.110 --> 58:09.490]  [SPEAKER_04]: We're thinking maybe it's a barcode.
[58:10.730 --> 58:12.290]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's an interesting thought.
[58:14.270 --> 58:16.970]  [SPEAKER_04]: Which would explain why we can't read it with a credit card reader, too.
[58:17.230 --> 58:19.210]  [SPEAKER_15]: Do you guys have a powerful magnet?
[58:20.170 --> 58:22.850]  [SPEAKER_04]: We have what's known as a bulk eraser here at the radio station.
[58:22.990 --> 58:26.670]  [SPEAKER_04]: Basically, you stick a cassette on this thing, push a button, and it's gone in a second.
[58:27.970 --> 58:37.910]  [SPEAKER_15]: I was thinking you might try screwing up magnetically some FAIR cards, getting them to me, and I might try encoding them.
[58:38.030 --> 58:40.450]  [SPEAKER_15]: That would tell us whether or not they're magnetic.
[58:41.030 --> 58:41.270]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[58:41.470 --> 58:43.590]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, we should be prepared for all kinds of experimentation.
[58:43.650 --> 58:45.130]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's what this whole thing is going to be about.
[58:45.570 --> 58:49.030]  [SPEAKER_04]: And at the beginning of HOPE, we're going to kind of present what we know at the end of HOPE.
[58:49.250 --> 58:52.730]  [SPEAKER_04]: Maybe we'll crack the whole system, or maybe we'll just say, this is a good system.
[58:52.730 --> 59:03.930]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, frankly, as far as I can tell, it's probably, if anyone has any venal, mercenary, or criminal ideas, it's probably easier just to make artificial tokens.
[59:05.430 --> 59:08.050]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, I'm sure the Transit Authority would be happy to hear that.
[59:08.530 --> 59:09.290]  [SPEAKER_15]: Probably not.
[59:09.650 --> 59:11.890]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, they're phasing out tokens, aren't they?
[59:12.130 --> 59:12.770]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yes, they are.
[59:13.070 --> 59:13.350]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[59:13.530 --> 59:19.750]  [SPEAKER_04]: I believe the main computer center, for those interested in jumping in garbage cans or whatever, is at J Street in Brooklyn, is that right?
[59:19.750 --> 59:26.690]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, 370 J Street is the Transit Authority headquarters, and that would be where the computer would be.
[59:26.810 --> 59:32.550]  [SPEAKER_15]: There's a park on one side, and there's a little alley practically behind.
[59:34.710 --> 59:37.850]  [SPEAKER_15]: And garbage is pretty much unguarded, as far as I know.
[59:37.970 --> 59:42.350]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, I'm sure they're calling in reinforcements tonight, so you might want to check that in nights to come.
[59:42.530 --> 59:44.470]  [SPEAKER_15]: I don't think anybody listens to the show.
[59:44.470 --> 59:46.830]  [SPEAKER_15]: They barely listen to anything down there.
[59:47.210 --> 59:49.590]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, okay, we'll see what happens as far as that goes.
[59:49.750 --> 59:51.430]  [SPEAKER_04]: Thanks very much for a very interesting discussion.
[59:51.610 --> 59:53.170]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, check your voicemail later tonight.
[59:53.370 --> 59:55.590]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, and we'll look forward to meeting you at HOPE.
[59:55.830 --> 59:56.130]  [SPEAKER_15]: Bye-bye.
[59:56.390 --> 59:56.730]  [SPEAKER_04]: Take care.
[59:57.690 --> 01:00:01.330]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, uh, that's really, uh, about all the time we have.
[01:00:01.610 --> 01:00:03.070]  [SPEAKER_04]: Um, I mean, that was fascinating.
[01:00:03.070 --> 01:00:08.490]  [SPEAKER_04]: I was looking for somebody like that that knows something about the new fare cards.
[01:00:08.570 --> 01:00:13.950]  [SPEAKER_04]: By the way, if that person is still out there, the, um, I found the card that I thought I had lost, the employee card.
[01:00:14.010 --> 01:00:16.690]  [SPEAKER_04]: It says, for a test only, no free access.
[01:00:16.690 --> 01:00:20.650]  [SPEAKER_04]: But, of course, that's exactly what it gives you is free access, uh, except that it's expired.
[01:00:21.510 --> 01:00:23.070]  [SPEAKER_04]: So that was, uh, kind of interesting.
[01:00:23.090 --> 01:00:26.470]  [SPEAKER_04]: We'll be doing more about that in weeks to come and at the conference.
[01:00:27.470 --> 01:00:29.050]  [SPEAKER_04]: Again, that's all the time we have for tonight.
[01:00:29.050 --> 01:00:30.930]  [SPEAKER_04]: We'll be back again next week.
[01:00:30.930 --> 01:00:41.470]  [SPEAKER_04]: And, of course, uh, those of you that want to meet with, uh, with hackers and various other interesting people, uh, before the HOPE convention, come to CitiCorp Center this Friday, between 5 p.m. and 8 p.m.
[01:00:42.910 --> 01:00:48.650]  [SPEAKER_04]: And, uh, we'll be hanging out by the payphones, doing the usual thing that we do every month, first Friday of the month.
[01:00:54.580 --> 01:00:56.940]  [SPEAKER_04]: Stay tuned for a rebroadcast of the evening news.
[01:00:57.100 --> 01:00:59.760]  [SPEAKER_04]: This is Emmanuel Goldstein for Off the Hook.
[01:00:59.940 --> 01:01:00.720]  [SPEAKER_04]: See you next week.
[01:01:00.880 --> 01:01:01.120]  [SPEAKER_04]: Good night.