Off The Hook - 1994-09-14

[00:02.570 --> 00:05.100]  [SPEAKER_09]: ...of the islands of Cuba and Hispaniola.
[00:05.700 --> 00:10.740]  [SPEAKER_09]: That's Cuba and Hispaniola, a special report, Monday, September 19th, from 7 a.m.
[00:10.800 --> 00:14.760]  [SPEAKER_09]: to midnight, only on WBAI 99.5 FM.
[00:22.480 --> 00:27.400]  [SPEAKER_12]: Listen, I wonder how many of you tonight are willing to wait till the midnight hour.
[00:29.820 --> 00:36.440]  [SPEAKER_12]: I wonder how many of you tonight feel that the midnight hour is the right time to wait.
[00:39.100 --> 00:46.760]  [SPEAKER_10]: On Friday, September 16th, Wilson Pickett, the Midnight Mover, meets the Midnight Ravers in a five-hour marathon special.
[00:47.500 --> 00:53.660]  [SPEAKER_10]: During the past three decades, Wilson Pickett has established himself as one of the country's leading singers and hitmakers.
[00:54.000 --> 00:58.500]  [SPEAKER_10]: His sensational string of bestsellers, including Mustang Sally...
[00:59.840 --> 01:03.260]  [SPEAKER_12]: Mustang Sally...
[01:07.100 --> 01:11.840]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yes, you better slow your Mustang down...
[01:12.460 --> 01:15.160]  [SPEAKER_10]: I'm in love...
[01:15.160 --> 01:17.340]  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm in love...
[01:17.340 --> 01:19.640]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, I am.
[01:20.940 --> 01:23.160]  [SPEAKER_03]: Love, love, love.
[01:26.800 --> 01:32.000]  [SPEAKER_10]: Has made him one of the hottest box office attractions on the international concert circuit.
[01:32.340 --> 01:40.400]  [SPEAKER_10]: Join Wilson Pickett live with the Midnight Ravers in a marathon special Friday, September 16th from 10 p.m.
[01:40.460 --> 01:41.220]  [SPEAKER_10]: to 3 a.m.
[01:41.600 --> 01:47.340]  [SPEAKER_10]: over listener-sponsored WBAI Radio 99.5 FM in New York.
[01:53.100 --> 01:57.080]  [SPEAKER_07]: The Midnight Ravers, where every show is a special.
[01:57.080 --> 02:07.760]  [SPEAKER_03]: How much more long, how long, how long, how long, how much more long, how long.
[02:08.620 --> 02:13.100]  [SPEAKER_01]: Hi, this is Marjorie Moore, host of Wednesday Afternoon Talkback.
[02:13.360 --> 02:18.600]  [SPEAKER_01]: And on Wednesday, September 21st, tune in early at 2 p.m.
[02:19.000 --> 02:22.500]  [SPEAKER_01]: for a membership drive special, Defending Our Name.
[02:22.800 --> 02:27.940]  [SPEAKER_01]: African-American women celebrate their history, struggles, and victory.
[02:28.160 --> 02:31.040]  [SPEAKER_01]: We will have an all-star lineup of guests.
[02:31.300 --> 02:36.200]  [SPEAKER_01]: The lists include Lonnie Guineer, Angela Davis, and Johnetta Cole.
[02:36.500 --> 02:38.260]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's from 2 p.m.
[02:38.420 --> 02:39.660]  [SPEAKER_01]: till 4.30 p.m.
[02:40.000 --> 02:41.860]  [SPEAKER_01]: on Wednesday, September 23rd.
[02:42.000 --> 02:46.760]  [SPEAKER_01]: But stay tuned for my usual talkback slot from 4.30 till 6.
[02:46.760 --> 02:55.140]  [SPEAKER_01]: My special guest will be Joy Behar, herself a former talk show host and comedian familiar to these airwaves.
[02:55.260 --> 03:02.560]  [SPEAKER_01]: Joy and I will discuss the state of talk radio in New York, women's issues, politics, and we'll have lots of laughs.
[03:02.840 --> 03:06.740]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's on Wednesday, September 21st, from 2 p.m.
[03:06.880 --> 03:07.700]  [SPEAKER_01]: to 6 p.m.
[03:07.700 --> 03:14.200]  [SPEAKER_01]: Here on listener-sponsored, commercial-free, and always stimulating WBAI.
[03:24.820 --> 03:34.580]  [SPEAKER_00]: On September 23rd through the 25th, the 10th Annual National Conference of the International Black Women's Congress will be held in Washington, D.C.
[03:34.580 --> 03:41.200]  [SPEAKER_00]: Save Our Lives, Establishing a Research Agenda on Black Women's Health, is the title of the conference.
[03:41.680 --> 03:43.500]  [SPEAKER_00]: Among the many speakers are...
[04:03.740 --> 04:10.420]  [SPEAKER_00]: There will be workshops, Afro-sized classes, cultural activities, and fashion shows.
[04:10.420 --> 04:18.080]  [SPEAKER_00]: For registration fees and other information, call 201-926-0570.
[04:18.480 --> 04:22.760]  [SPEAKER_00]: That's 201-926-0570.
[04:30.040 --> 04:40.260]  [SPEAKER_14]: And this is radio station WBAI, where it's five minutes after 10 o'clock, which means we're five minutes late for our usual Wednesday production of Off the Hook.
[04:40.260 --> 04:46.740]  [SPEAKER_14]: But it's okay, because this week will be on until midnight, and you just know what we're going to be asking you for.
[04:52.940 --> 04:57.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
[04:58.380 --> 05:02.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: I cut myself all shaven, now I can't make a cough.
[05:03.670 --> 05:05.760]  [SPEAKER_05]: It couldn't get much worse.
[05:08.430 --> 05:11.170]  [SPEAKER_04]: Bum-ding-a-bump for the best, expect the worst.
[05:11.830 --> 05:13.750]  [SPEAKER_04]: I hope the song is good.
[05:14.030 --> 05:14.790]  [SPEAKER_04]: Bum-ding-a-bump!
[05:53.160 --> 05:54.980]  [SPEAKER_14]: And a very good evening to one and all.
[05:55.360 --> 05:57.540]  [SPEAKER_14]: This is Emmanuel Goldstein with Off the Hook.
[05:58.660 --> 06:04.080]  [SPEAKER_14]: The program that talks about all kinds of fun stuff going on in the world of the Internet.
[06:04.860 --> 06:12.420]  [SPEAKER_14]: Of the growing and stumbling telephone systems and all kinds of computer fun that you just would not believe.
[06:13.220 --> 06:18.700]  [SPEAKER_14]: And, of course, in addition to that, we talk about freedom of speech.
[06:18.700 --> 06:24.800]  [SPEAKER_14]: We talk about various issues of the day that affect all of us, whether we have a computer or we don't have a computer.
[06:25.640 --> 06:30.040]  [SPEAKER_14]: Issues that affect virtually every person on the planet in some form.
[06:30.760 --> 06:32.280]  [SPEAKER_14]: And tonight is no exception.
[06:32.280 --> 06:33.620]  [SPEAKER_14]: We'll be having a special guest.
[06:33.620 --> 06:41.000]  [SPEAKER_14]: And hopefully we'll be hearing from Phiber Optik also sometime later on in this hour.
[06:41.360 --> 06:47.240]  [SPEAKER_14]: And, of course, we'll be asking for your help to keep programs like this on the radio because it's our fall pledge drive.
[06:47.580 --> 06:48.200]  [SPEAKER_14]: That's right.
[06:48.200 --> 06:52.100]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's amazing how fast time goes by, but we're into fall already.
[06:52.680 --> 07:11.840]  [SPEAKER_14]: And it's time for us to ask for support so that we can keep going with programs like this and with a radio station like WBAI, where we've all learned so much about technology through this particular radio program, through shows like The Personal Computer Show and Explorations and all the other fine things that we have here on WBAI.
[07:11.840 --> 07:14.220]  [SPEAKER_14]: But we'll be getting more into that in just a little bit.
[07:14.560 --> 07:19.220]  [SPEAKER_14]: We're going to try and set things up so that we'll have some interesting things to talk about.
[07:19.660 --> 07:24.440]  [SPEAKER_14]: And we have a special premium, which we'll be getting into in just a couple of minutes, too.
[07:24.600 --> 07:25.740]  [SPEAKER_14]: So stay with us.
[07:37.430 --> 07:42.890]  [SPEAKER_06]: I think you're all alone It's not quite true
[07:48.350 --> 08:00.770]  [SPEAKER_04]: Because no one should Everything you see was meant to be Misunderstood Safe
[08:07.440 --> 08:13.060]  [SPEAKER_07]: and sound So safe and sound
[08:20.790 --> 08:34.610]  [SPEAKER_04]: And all my friends Are killing me And all my friends Are killing me
[09:46.650 --> 09:48.790]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, and we're back.
[09:49.070 --> 09:51.190]  [SPEAKER_14]: And you're fading away, right?
[09:51.490 --> 09:51.790]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah.
[09:51.970 --> 09:52.150]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay.
[09:52.670 --> 09:56.870]  [SPEAKER_14]: We're here tonight on a special occasion.
[09:57.190 --> 10:02.330]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, it is a special occasion because we only ask for support three times a year.
[10:03.210 --> 10:05.890]  [SPEAKER_14]: Although maybe it seems like more than that sometimes.
[10:07.090 --> 10:12.250]  [SPEAKER_14]: But three particular times in a year.
[10:12.350 --> 10:15.010]  [SPEAKER_14]: And this is the autumn, our autumn turn.
[10:16.030 --> 10:18.550]  [SPEAKER_14]: And we need your help as much as we've ever done before.
[10:18.650 --> 10:24.070]  [SPEAKER_14]: But before we get into that, we have a special guest with us that we want to talk to for a bit.
[10:24.590 --> 10:28.070]  [SPEAKER_14]: As far as certain issues go.
[10:28.610 --> 10:36.350]  [SPEAKER_14]: We have on the phone with us from Port Townsend, Washington, Steve O'Keefe, who is the editorial director of Loompanics.
[10:36.650 --> 10:37.590]  [SPEAKER_14]: And, Steve, are you with us?
[10:37.810 --> 10:38.090]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[10:38.310 --> 10:39.130]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's great to be here.
[10:39.310 --> 10:39.730]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, thanks.
[10:40.670 --> 10:46.590]  [SPEAKER_14]: Now, Loompanics is a familiar word to many hackers and a familiar word to many people interested in reading.
[10:47.890 --> 10:52.430]  [SPEAKER_14]: And also, it will be a familiar word to people tonight who pledge because we have a special offer.
[10:52.490 --> 10:53.970]  [SPEAKER_14]: But we'll get to that in a few minutes.
[10:54.890 --> 11:15.430]  [SPEAKER_14]: More recently, if you're watching the National Broadcasting Company, which is, I guess, best described as one of those commercial television networks that invades our turf, NBC had a program called Dateline NBC, which is how I imagine if they are naming their shows.
[11:15.610 --> 11:18.930]  [SPEAKER_14]: Which, by the way, you know that show is on three times a week next season?
[11:18.930 --> 11:19.590]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's incredible.
[11:19.730 --> 11:21.250]  [SPEAKER_14]: They just have nothing else to put on the air.
[11:21.250 --> 11:23.550]  [SPEAKER_02]: They're thinking of going up five times a week.
[11:23.770 --> 11:24.170]  [SPEAKER_14]: Five times?
[11:24.370 --> 11:28.490]  [SPEAKER_14]: I mean, that's incredibly cheap for them to have to put the same show on five times a week.
[11:28.590 --> 11:31.270]  [SPEAKER_14]: They don't have to come up with Miami Vice or something.
[11:31.450 --> 11:34.630]  [SPEAKER_02]: And how much Jane Pauley can one person stand in a week?
[11:34.690 --> 11:36.050]  [SPEAKER_14]: Is it all going to be Jane Pauley?
[11:36.650 --> 11:37.890]  [SPEAKER_02]: And Stone Phillips.
[11:38.050 --> 11:38.390]  [SPEAKER_14]: Wow.
[11:38.650 --> 11:40.330]  [SPEAKER_14]: You see, I mean, that's the difference.
[11:40.650 --> 11:45.450]  [SPEAKER_14]: At WBAI, nobody would ever put me on five nights a week because there's a limit.
[11:45.630 --> 11:48.990]  [SPEAKER_14]: There's a limit to how much people can take of one particular thing over and over again.
[11:49.850 --> 11:52.970]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm sure you're a lot more entertaining than Jane Pauley.
[11:53.290 --> 11:54.930]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, that's not too hard to do.
[11:55.010 --> 11:56.370]  [SPEAKER_14]: But enough Jane Pauley bashing.
[11:57.010 --> 12:01.850]  [SPEAKER_14]: We have more serious issues to talk about, and that's sort of what Dateline NBC was supposed to do.
[12:01.950 --> 12:06.070]  [SPEAKER_14]: They were supposed to talk about serious issues, but it kind of degenerated into a farce.
[12:06.770 --> 12:13.090]  [SPEAKER_14]: The story was about making bombs and using computers to get the information to make bombs.
[12:13.250 --> 12:15.910]  [SPEAKER_14]: Now, you know, a lot of us who listen to this radio show will say, big deal.
[12:15.910 --> 12:18.590]  [SPEAKER_14]: You can use a book to get information on how to make bombs.
[12:18.590 --> 12:26.970]  [SPEAKER_14]: But the fact that a computer was involved meant that all Internet users were bomb makers, and those of us that weren't into child pornography are into blowing things up.
[12:27.370 --> 12:34.250]  [SPEAKER_14]: And that's pretty much the perception that the big networks like to get out for some reason, I think because it's just a very easy thing to do.
[12:35.110 --> 12:46.410]  [SPEAKER_14]: And people from Loompanics were interviewed on this particular show because they put out books that deal with making bombs, as well as many other books that deal with making all kinds of things.
[12:46.410 --> 12:59.010]  [SPEAKER_14]: But I guess I can start off, Steve, by asking you the same question in a different tone, perhaps, that they asked when they had one of your people on the airwaves there.
[12:59.530 --> 13:01.490]  [SPEAKER_14]: How do you justify your existence?
[13:02.310 --> 13:04.370]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, we don't have to justify it.
[13:04.450 --> 13:09.450]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's what the First Amendment's about, is we're free to publish whatever we want.
[13:10.630 --> 13:12.350]  [SPEAKER_02]: Words never harmed anyone.
[13:13.350 --> 13:16.510]  [SPEAKER_02]: And people are free to buy it or not buy it if they choose.
[13:16.770 --> 13:27.410]  [SPEAKER_02]: We don't force anybody to take our books, to read them, and we certainly don't expect people to act on all the information that they find in our books.
[13:27.610 --> 13:31.470]  [SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, we're protected by the First Amendment in that.
[13:31.470 --> 13:42.790]  [SPEAKER_02]: And that's the nice thing about the First Amendment, is you don't have to justify or kiss anybody's butt in order to be able to publish or say what you want to publish or say.
[13:43.250 --> 13:43.850]  [SPEAKER_14]: Uh-huh.
[13:44.410 --> 13:46.970]  [SPEAKER_14]: Now, what kind of other titles do you publish?
[13:48.110 --> 13:51.710]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, there's about a thousand titles listed in our catalog.
[13:51.710 --> 13:55.310]  [SPEAKER_02]: All of them are controversial and unusual books.
[13:55.630 --> 14:02.570]  [SPEAKER_02]: There's everything on weapons, shortening people's lives, extending people's lives.
[14:02.570 --> 14:20.970]  [SPEAKER_02]: We have weird science books, life extension, anarchism, books on making drugs, books on surveillance and eavesdropping, things on alternative shelters, squatting, beat the system kind of books, things on avoiding taxes.
[14:21.730 --> 14:31.450]  [SPEAKER_02]: You name it, if it's somewhat unconventional and it's a how-to book, chances are you'll find it in our catalog and a few other places.
[14:32.690 --> 14:34.730]  [SPEAKER_14]: And how long has Loompanics been around?
[14:35.130 --> 14:39.610]  [SPEAKER_02]: Since about 1975, so we're coming up on 20 years here.
[14:40.230 --> 14:43.950]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's a long time in the marginal publishing universe.
[14:44.450 --> 14:51.850]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, over the past couple of years anyway, we've seen a publishing explosion with zines and with all kinds of alternative reading material.
[14:52.430 --> 14:57.390]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and our business has just ballooned in the last few years.
[14:58.090 --> 15:02.350]  [SPEAKER_02]: Like Tower Books and Tower Records in New York now carry our stock.
[15:02.810 --> 15:05.730]  [SPEAKER_02]: It used to be you couldn't find it anywhere but mail order.
[15:06.290 --> 15:09.630]  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, even some of the chains are starting to carry our titles.
[15:09.830 --> 15:17.170]  [SPEAKER_02]: We have one on psychedelic shamanism that came out this year that's in Walden Books, probably right next to the Say No to Drugs poster.
[15:17.170 --> 15:21.990]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, do you see this as a change in the overall mood of the country?
[15:22.210 --> 15:25.610]  [SPEAKER_14]: Are people becoming more literate and more into alternative things?
[15:25.870 --> 15:30.450]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, there's a sad side to it and a positive side.
[15:30.630 --> 15:37.670]  [SPEAKER_02]: I think people are into more weird and bizarre stuff and part of this is fed by TV.
[15:39.030 --> 16:04.850]  [SPEAKER_02]: Dateline NBC being on three nights a week or five nights a week is an example of all that television programming which is becoming reality-based news shows where we find the most unusual or scary person we can find and we bring them up on TV and show them to people for a few minutes and then have an insta-poll to decide thumbs up or thumbs down.
[16:06.990 --> 16:16.210]  [SPEAKER_02]: People are getting away from fiction and television and away from fiction and print and they're more interested in non-fiction and the stranger the better.
[16:17.410 --> 16:18.070]  [SPEAKER_14]: Uh-huh.
[16:18.790 --> 16:26.150]  [SPEAKER_14]: You also have shows such as TV Nation actually on the same network of NBC that kind of take the whole thing with a grain of salt.
[16:26.410 --> 16:30.510]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, TV Nation is great because they don't pretend to be objective.
[16:30.770 --> 17:03.170]  [SPEAKER_02]: For example, when Dateline came to film that segment at our place I'm guessing they spent maybe $50,000 just to film our portion which was one-third of one segment on their show one night and they must have had 12 people there lighting camera makeup sound correspondents producers they shot I'm guessing seven or eight hours of footage and from that they edit down to you know two and a half minutes
[17:03.170 --> 17:11.290]  [SPEAKER_02]: actually appears on the air well they can make anybody look like an idiot in two and a half minutes or a genius You know, if they have five hours of film.
[17:12.550 --> 17:21.450]  [SPEAKER_02]: Actually, they seem to portray us fairly on there, although we didn't care for the stand they took on the issue of freedom of speech.
[17:21.710 --> 17:32.930]  [SPEAKER_02]: This is the thing that always galls me, is the mainstream press is sometimes the ones crying loudest for restrictions on freedom of speech and freedom of the press.
[17:32.930 --> 17:34.330]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, you have to wonder about that.
[17:34.430 --> 17:40.110]  [SPEAKER_14]: The press is coming out and saying freedom of the press is a bad thing, or making it seem that way, making other people say that.
[17:41.090 --> 17:41.990]  [SPEAKER_14]: It is awfully bizarre.
[17:42.010 --> 17:50.370]  [SPEAKER_02]: Dateline did us a big favor with that segment, because what they did was they linked Loompanics with all these computer users out there who are on the Internet.
[17:51.390 --> 17:57.630]  [SPEAKER_02]: And there's some 35 million people on the Internet, and they don't like hearing about censorship of the Internet.
[17:57.630 --> 18:04.090]  [SPEAKER_02]: And so somehow we got linked with them, and all of a sudden we're sort of heroes on the Internet.
[18:04.490 --> 18:19.410]  [SPEAKER_02]: And Dateline NBC, who broadcast their Internet address at the end of every episode, was deluged with email against their segment and supportive freedom of speech on the Internet.
[18:19.410 --> 18:27.450]  [SPEAKER_02]: So it actually may have resulted in them taking a step back.
[18:27.710 --> 18:32.070]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, I know they gave out their email address, and I know a lot of people that sent mail to that email address.
[18:32.530 --> 18:39.670]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's funny, they all got back the same reply instantly that said, we're getting a tremendous response, and we're very pleased with this.
[18:39.810 --> 18:42.770]  [SPEAKER_14]: We can't respond individually, but we thank you for your letter.
[18:43.090 --> 18:48.270]  [SPEAKER_14]: Now, what's interesting about that is that they tell people they're getting a tremendous response before they get a tremendous response.
[18:48.270 --> 18:48.790]  [SPEAKER_14]: Right.
[18:48.990 --> 18:49.870]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's their form letter.
[18:50.010 --> 18:51.710]  [SPEAKER_14]: They're always getting a tremendous response.
[18:51.930 --> 18:52.350]  [SPEAKER_02]: Form letter.
[18:52.410 --> 18:58.190]  [SPEAKER_02]: You get the same kind of thing if you send an email to the White House, which is online also, supposedly.
[19:00.170 --> 19:00.650]  [SPEAKER_14]: Right.
[19:00.650 --> 19:02.330]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's kind of fake, I guess.
[19:02.550 --> 19:07.190]  [SPEAKER_14]: But did they acknowledge all this email on the air at all, do you know?
[19:07.830 --> 19:13.810]  [SPEAKER_02]: To my knowledge, fortunately, I've been spared from watching Dateline since this segment ran.
[19:14.490 --> 19:18.230]  [SPEAKER_02]: I had to watch it for months waiting for them to air it.
[19:18.330 --> 19:26.830]  [SPEAKER_02]: They taped it in March, and I took about as much Jane Pauley as I could take, and so I haven't watched it since.
[19:27.030 --> 19:41.850]  [SPEAKER_02]: But I have been monitoring the net, and the reaction on the net has been unanimous and very vocal in all the news groups that are related to computer security issues and the Internet.
[19:42.790 --> 19:45.810]  [SPEAKER_02]: We have our own spot on the net.
[19:46.050 --> 19:51.590]  [SPEAKER_02]: We're on a system called The Well out in San Francisco, and we have a catalog online out there.
[19:51.590 --> 19:55.110]  [SPEAKER_02]: So we heard a lot of feedback off of that, too.
[19:56.910 --> 20:05.930]  [SPEAKER_02]: And really, it surprised me how much people on the net really do not want any sort of censorship whatsoever of the net.
[20:06.090 --> 20:08.990]  [SPEAKER_02]: And it's not just Dateline that's calling for that.
[20:09.250 --> 20:14.830]  [SPEAKER_02]: The Wall Street Journal started thumping about kiddie porn on the net a while ago.
[20:14.830 --> 20:38.910]  [SPEAKER_02]: And you're going to increasingly see the establishment come down on the net because they're going to use issues like pornography and hate mail and bomb-making and national security to justify clamping down on the net because they simply don't like the free flow of information between consenting people,
[20:38.950 --> 20:43.030]  [SPEAKER_02]: which is what the net's about, and that's also what your radio network there is about.
[20:43.030 --> 20:43.530]  [SPEAKER_14]: Absolutely.
[20:44.290 --> 20:52.850]  [SPEAKER_14]: The net is really the first time we've had the opportunity to have such freedom of speech flowing unabated between different people throughout the world.
[20:53.030 --> 20:59.210]  [SPEAKER_14]: And, you know, there's not a government in the world that does not fear that because that's potentially losing control.
[20:59.430 --> 21:08.670]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's potentially having your citizens speaking their minds without anybody coming down on them, without them feeling afraid to do so.
[21:08.670 --> 21:13.230]  [SPEAKER_14]: And it can be, even for a democracy, any government in power fears that kind of thing.
[21:13.450 --> 21:16.350]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and that's why they fear radio stations, too.
[21:16.630 --> 21:23.350]  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, you have an established station there, but the FCC strictly limits the...
[21:23.350 --> 21:38.190]  [SPEAKER_02]: They require a certain threshold size for a station before it can get a license, which effectively eliminates, you know, all your mom-and-pop, you know, radio outfits from being able to use available airspace.
[21:38.570 --> 21:38.810]  [SPEAKER_14]: Right.
[21:39.090 --> 21:42.350]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, I mean, I should point out that WBAI is kind of a...
[21:43.370 --> 21:45.050]  [SPEAKER_14]: We're an exception to the rule.
[21:45.610 --> 21:50.630]  [SPEAKER_14]: We're a 50,000-watt radio station in the middle of the FM dial in New York City.
[21:50.630 --> 21:55.950]  [SPEAKER_14]: You just don't get non-commercial radio stations like that in other parts of the country.
[21:55.950 --> 22:00.530]  [SPEAKER_14]: And it's kind of weird that we got one here in New York.
[22:00.530 --> 22:04.510]  [SPEAKER_14]: There's a long story behind it, but the fact is it's here, and we want it to stay here.
[22:05.290 --> 22:07.270]  [SPEAKER_14]: What's the radio scene like out there in Washington?
[22:07.870 --> 22:08.750]  [SPEAKER_02]: It sucks.
[22:08.950 --> 22:09.170]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah.
[22:09.970 --> 22:11.290]  [SPEAKER_02]: I hate to say that.
[22:11.590 --> 22:11.730]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's what people say.
[22:11.730 --> 22:14.930]  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, a lot of people think the music scene out here is truly awesome.
[22:15.950 --> 22:32.470]  [SPEAKER_02]: But really, the cultural situation out in western Washington is pretty lame compared to some place like New York, where you just have this thriving metropolis of people from all over the world, all with their favorite kinds of music.
[22:33.550 --> 22:37.850]  [SPEAKER_02]: And the radio is so bad out here, it's almost not worth listening to.
[22:38.030 --> 22:41.290]  [SPEAKER_02]: So you should be lucky to have a good station there.
[22:41.390 --> 22:50.370]  [SPEAKER_02]: There's one good independent station out in Seattle, KCMU, that plays music for thinking people.
[22:50.510 --> 22:51.790]  [SPEAKER_14]: Is that a college station?
[22:51.790 --> 22:52.070]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yep.
[22:52.450 --> 22:53.310]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay, I figured as much.
[22:53.430 --> 22:56.690]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, you'll find that most of the good stations are non-commercial stations.
[22:56.790 --> 23:09.970]  [SPEAKER_14]: And it's that whole philosophy where if you have a commercial broadcasting entity, they're going to be that much more diluted because they have to appeal to the broadest number of people and they have to worry about their advertisers.
[23:10.610 --> 23:13.110]  [SPEAKER_14]: And we have neither of those worries here at WBAI.
[23:13.250 --> 23:21.150]  [SPEAKER_14]: We simply have to reach enough people out there that care about radio and are willing to invest in it and are willing to keep us going.
[23:21.870 --> 23:28.650]  [SPEAKER_14]: And what we have, what people at Loompanics have been kind enough to do for us here tonight, is donate some books.
[23:29.170 --> 23:38.530]  [SPEAKER_14]: And one book which I think pertains to our audience especially well is the recently published Secrets of a Super Hacker, written by The Nightmare.
[23:38.530 --> 23:41.270]  [SPEAKER_14]: And we only have a limited number of these.
[23:41.490 --> 23:46.490]  [SPEAKER_14]: So the pledge deal is this.
[23:46.510 --> 23:49.670]  [SPEAKER_14]: For a $75 pledge, you will get this book.
[23:50.250 --> 23:52.910]  [SPEAKER_14]: This, how many pages is this book here?
[23:53.050 --> 23:55.130]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's about 200 plus, I'd say.
[23:55.570 --> 23:57.250]  [SPEAKER_14]: And it's got all kinds of information.
[23:57.370 --> 24:09.870]  [SPEAKER_14]: And for a $75 pledge at 212-279-3400, you'll get a copy of this Loompanicss book and a free membership at WBAI, of course, the program guide for a year.
[24:10.710 --> 24:18.250]  [SPEAKER_14]: And also, more importantly, the notion that you are helping this radio station continue with what it's trying to do.
[24:19.010 --> 24:20.630]  [SPEAKER_14]: You're helping this radio program.
[24:20.830 --> 24:24.490]  [SPEAKER_14]: And that way we'll be able to keep coming back with information like this.
[24:24.490 --> 24:26.430]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's 212-279-3400.
[24:26.430 --> 24:27.690]  [SPEAKER_14]: We have two callers on the line.
[24:27.810 --> 24:30.430]  [SPEAKER_14]: And we have room for seven, I think, right?
[24:30.610 --> 24:33.730]  [SPEAKER_14]: So we have...
[24:33.730 --> 24:39.070]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, Secrets of a Super Hacker is an awesome book, by the way, which is not readily available.
[24:39.350 --> 24:41.590]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's a $20 book.
[24:41.590 --> 24:53.770]  [SPEAKER_02]: And in addition to being just terrific inside, it's got a great cover by Bart Nagel, who is the art director at Mondo 2000, a magazine that might be familiar to some of your listeners.
[24:53.770 --> 24:55.030]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, I thought this looked familiar.
[24:55.170 --> 24:55.330]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah.
[24:55.430 --> 24:56.410]  [SPEAKER_14]: It does look like that.
[24:56.510 --> 24:57.370]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's really...
[24:57.370 --> 25:00.390]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's a nice package, and it's a terrific book.
[25:00.710 --> 25:00.930]  [SPEAKER_14]: Mm-hmm.
[25:01.470 --> 25:03.810]  [SPEAKER_14]: So that's Secrets of a Super Hacker with every pledge of $75.
[25:04.170 --> 25:08.530]  [SPEAKER_14]: But that's not to say you can't pledge less than that if you don't want to pledge $75.
[25:08.590 --> 25:10.290]  [SPEAKER_14]: We will accept any amount, of course.
[25:10.690 --> 25:16.910]  [SPEAKER_14]: Every little bit helps, and that's how we get the high-up figures.
[25:17.030 --> 25:21.650]  [SPEAKER_14]: Like, for instance, today, we've raised $49,425, and we had to start somewhere.
[25:21.650 --> 25:24.210]  [SPEAKER_14]: We had to start with somebody pledging $20, $30.
[25:24.730 --> 25:25.670]  [SPEAKER_14]: It adds up.
[25:25.810 --> 25:29.370]  [SPEAKER_14]: So every person that calls in and pledges something adds to that total.
[25:29.590 --> 25:38.990]  [SPEAKER_14]: So hopefully at the end of our two hours together, we'll have a nice sizable total, and we'll know that people who listen to Off the Hook care about this radio station, care about this radio show, and are willing to support it.
[25:39.770 --> 25:41.110]  [SPEAKER_14]: 212-279-3400.
[25:41.370 --> 25:48.570]  [SPEAKER_14]: I'd like to read something from this book on the social engineering part, which is something that a lot of hackers take interest in.
[25:50.130 --> 25:54.050]  [SPEAKER_14]: Somehow shocking the first time one hears about social engineering.
[25:54.250 --> 25:55.390]  [SPEAKER_14]: At least it was shocking for me.
[25:55.770 --> 26:11.250]  [SPEAKER_14]: Hacking is thought of as an activity pursued solely, nocturnally, relentlessly, for hour after midnight hour, or by some dazed and nerdish character banging away at a computer keyboard in feverish pursuit of that single golden word which will grant access to the technological secrets of the universe.
[26:12.150 --> 26:16.590]  [SPEAKER_14]: And you guys print some information as to what social engineering is all about.
[26:16.590 --> 26:17.630]  [SPEAKER_14]: Here's an example.
[26:19.370 --> 26:20.350]  [SPEAKER_14]: Person on the other end.
[26:20.670 --> 26:22.610]  [SPEAKER_14]: Hello, Jack Chipper, Computing Department.
[26:23.190 --> 26:23.550]  [SPEAKER_14]: You.
[26:24.050 --> 26:24.710]  [SPEAKER_14]: Hello, Jack.
[26:24.810 --> 26:26.690]  [SPEAKER_14]: This is Gary Harris from the Researching Department.
[26:26.910 --> 26:28.050]  [SPEAKER_14]: Maybe you could help me with a problem.
[26:28.450 --> 26:28.810]  [SPEAKER_14]: Maybe.
[26:28.990 --> 26:29.510]  [SPEAKER_14]: What is it?
[26:29.870 --> 26:32.810]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, I'm the first one here, and I can't seem to get things started up.
[26:32.870 --> 26:33.730]  [SPEAKER_14]: Will you talk me through it?
[26:33.990 --> 26:34.350]  [SPEAKER_14]: Sure.
[26:34.510 --> 26:35.230]  [SPEAKER_14]: You buy your computer?
[26:35.390 --> 26:35.730]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yes.
[26:36.170 --> 26:36.490]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay.
[26:36.630 --> 26:37.890]  [SPEAKER_14]: Turn on the red switch by the floor.
[26:37.970 --> 26:38.470]  [SPEAKER_14]: You see it there?
[26:38.870 --> 26:39.230]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yes.
[26:39.330 --> 26:39.510]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay.
[26:39.510 --> 26:40.010]  [SPEAKER_14]: I see it.
[26:40.150 --> 26:40.410]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay.
[26:41.250 --> 26:42.550]  [SPEAKER_14]: It'll take a few minutes for everything to boot up.
[26:43.170 --> 26:43.750]  [SPEAKER_14]: To what?
[26:44.170 --> 26:49.070]  [SPEAKER_14]: Now, of course, by saying to what like that, you're pretending that you're stupid and the person will give you more information.
[26:50.070 --> 26:50.570]  [SPEAKER_14]: Boot up.
[26:50.630 --> 26:53.750]  [SPEAKER_14]: I mean, it'll take a minute or two for the computer to set itself, to get ready for use.
[26:54.470 --> 26:54.790]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay.
[26:54.810 --> 26:56.110]  [SPEAKER_14]: And then you say, Okay, it stopped.
[26:56.810 --> 26:58.330]  [SPEAKER_14]: Jack says, What do you see?
[26:59.010 --> 27:00.330]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, just what you always see.
[27:00.370 --> 27:02.930]  [SPEAKER_14]: It worked up to here fine before, but after this, it didn't work.
[27:03.070 --> 27:04.810]  [SPEAKER_14]: What do I do when it doesn't work here?
[27:05.550 --> 27:06.650]  [SPEAKER_14]: What do you usually type?
[27:06.890 --> 27:07.510]  [SPEAKER_14]: I don't know.
[27:07.590 --> 27:08.510]  [SPEAKER_14]: This is my first day here.
[27:08.590 --> 27:09.090]  [SPEAKER_14]: I'm just a temp.
[27:09.210 --> 27:10.330]  [SPEAKER_14]: They said someone would tell me.
[27:11.250 --> 27:12.170]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay, press Enter.
[27:12.830 --> 27:13.050]  [SPEAKER_14]: Enter.
[27:13.210 --> 27:13.370]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay.
[27:13.630 --> 27:15.690]  [SPEAKER_14]: Now type temp, spacebar, puppy.
[27:16.390 --> 27:16.830]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay.
[27:17.150 --> 27:17.450]  [SPEAKER_14]: Oh!
[27:18.430 --> 27:19.070]  [SPEAKER_14]: You see?
[27:19.250 --> 27:19.810]  [SPEAKER_14]: Thank you, Jack.
[27:20.070 --> 27:21.490]  [SPEAKER_14]: I don't know what went wrong before.
[27:21.490 --> 27:23.810]  [SPEAKER_14]: You've just gotten an account and a password.
[27:24.050 --> 27:25.730]  [SPEAKER_14]: And that's what social engineering is all about.
[27:25.870 --> 27:31.650]  [SPEAKER_14]: By pretending you're someone you're not or by pretending you're stupid, people are able to get all kinds of information.
[27:31.790 --> 27:39.610]  [SPEAKER_14]: And sometimes it works the other way around where you actually walk someone else through something and they give you information while you're walking them through it.
[27:39.730 --> 27:43.510]  [SPEAKER_14]: You know, you're saying, I hear someone there has trouble logging into a computer system.
[27:43.670 --> 27:45.830]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, you know, we can help you out.
[27:45.930 --> 27:47.030]  [SPEAKER_14]: What accounts are you using?
[27:47.090 --> 27:48.150]  [SPEAKER_14]: What password are you using?
[27:48.230 --> 27:49.730]  [SPEAKER_14]: And they cheerfully tell you this information.
[27:51.130 --> 27:51.990]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's almost funny.
[27:52.070 --> 27:52.790]  [SPEAKER_14]: In fact, it is funny.
[27:52.790 --> 27:57.830]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, a lot of people, they spend enormous amounts of money on computer security.
[27:58.190 --> 28:07.570]  [SPEAKER_02]: And then an employee leaves the password, you know, taped up underneath their desk somewhere or on the bottom of their keyboard.
[28:07.570 --> 28:11.850]  [SPEAKER_02]: And then that's all you need to get past all that big security package.
[28:11.850 --> 28:24.030]  [SPEAKER_02]: So for most hackers, it's really a lot easier nowadays to just get a legitimate user to reveal their password than it is to try to, you know, break in relentlessly.
[28:24.370 --> 28:26.410]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay, I'm going to cut in for a second.
[28:26.410 --> 28:28.570]  [SPEAKER_14]: I think we have Phiber Optik on the line.
[28:28.750 --> 28:29.430]  [SPEAKER_14]: Phiber, is that you?
[28:30.730 --> 28:31.210]  [SPEAKER_14]: Hello?
[28:32.110 --> 28:32.890]  [SPEAKER_14]: Anybody there?
[28:33.390 --> 28:33.850]  I'm here.
[28:34.830 --> 28:37.410]  [SPEAKER_14]: Oh, we had a line ringing.
[28:37.590 --> 28:38.570]  [SPEAKER_14]: I'm not sure if that was him.
[28:39.170 --> 28:40.230]  [SPEAKER_14]: We'll check into that.
[28:40.350 --> 28:42.870]  [SPEAKER_14]: But, okay, hang on, let me see.
[28:43.590 --> 28:44.370]  [SPEAKER_14]: Anybody there?
[28:45.530 --> 28:46.490]  [SPEAKER_14]: No, I guess not.
[28:47.450 --> 28:47.930]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay.
[28:49.010 --> 28:50.790]  [SPEAKER_14]: All right, never mind that.
[28:51.350 --> 28:55.310]  [SPEAKER_02]: Is fiber optic trying to freak in from Philadelphia?
[28:55.790 --> 28:56.870]  [SPEAKER_14]: I think so, yeah.
[28:57.010 --> 28:58.270]  [SPEAKER_14]: I think they're trying to do that.
[28:59.230 --> 29:01.410]  [SPEAKER_02]: Get his little blue box hooked up in the prison.
[29:01.470 --> 29:03.410]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, I don't think they permit that kind of thing.
[29:03.570 --> 29:08.350]  [SPEAKER_14]: But, anyway, 212-279-3400 is the phone number to call.
[29:08.390 --> 29:15.810]  [SPEAKER_14]: And if we could have a display on the screen in there as to how many calls we are getting and how many people are calling in, we can update everybody.
[29:16.910 --> 29:19.150]  [SPEAKER_14]: Important thing is, I'm not sure if fiber's going to get through tonight.
[29:19.190 --> 29:20.270]  [SPEAKER_14]: If he does, that'd be great.
[29:22.030 --> 29:33.290]  [SPEAKER_14]: But the thing is, we've heard so much from him in prison recently and we've been able to keep in touch with the whole story as to how he got there and everything behind that case.
[29:34.310 --> 29:40.590]  [SPEAKER_14]: The thing is, we wouldn't have been able to hear all of that if this station weren't here, if this radio program weren't here for us to do so.
[29:40.790 --> 29:46.670]  [SPEAKER_14]: A lot of our listeners have been able to speak directly with him, ask questions, have been able to find out all kinds of interesting things.
[29:47.230 --> 29:53.630]  [SPEAKER_14]: Usually the switchboard is completely crowded with people calling in and asking questions or giving comments.
[29:53.750 --> 29:58.630]  [SPEAKER_14]: Tonight we're asking for some support so that we can continue to do that in the weeks ahead.
[29:59.730 --> 30:01.110]  [SPEAKER_14]: 212-279-3400.
[30:01.190 --> 30:02.610]  [SPEAKER_14]: We have no calls on the line right now.
[30:02.690 --> 30:03.710]  [SPEAKER_14]: Let's fill up that switchboard.
[30:03.890 --> 30:05.350]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's really important that we hear from you.
[30:05.470 --> 30:07.010]  [SPEAKER_14]: 212-279-3400.
[30:07.170 --> 30:24.370]  [SPEAKER_14]: Remember, everybody calling in with a $75 pledge will get a copy of Secrets of a Super Hacker written by The Nightmare and information on all kinds of things from the basics, the history of hacking, passwords and access control, social engineering, and reverse social engineering,
[30:24.790 --> 30:39.430]  [SPEAKER_14]: public access terminals and computers, on-site hacking, hacking at home, dialing up computers with your modem, bulletin board systems, borderline hacking, including filthy tricks, bribery, boos and broads and bad feelings, what to do once you're inside,
[30:40.170 --> 30:46.050]  [SPEAKER_14]: after hacking, hacker security, how to keep from getting caught, all kinds of valuable information.
[30:46.210 --> 30:48.990]  [SPEAKER_14]: 212-279-3400.
[30:49.250 --> 30:52.570]  [SPEAKER_14]: Please give us a call and keep this radio station going.
[30:52.710 --> 30:54.110]  [SPEAKER_14]: 212-279-3400.
[30:54.190 --> 31:01.810]  [SPEAKER_14]: Remember, we take Visa, we take MasterCard, and we have all kinds of people there waiting to take your phone call.
[31:01.930 --> 31:03.950]  [SPEAKER_14]: 212-279-3400.
[31:05.250 --> 31:09.270]  [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe they don't know how incredible some of the stuff in this book is.
[31:09.430 --> 31:10.230]  [SPEAKER_02]: Like there's...
[31:10.230 --> 31:11.530]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, what's an overview?
[31:11.790 --> 31:21.530]  [SPEAKER_02]: There's like eight appendices at the end that have lists of words, commonly used passwords, also words that are set on computers at the factories.
[31:22.090 --> 31:33.030]  [SPEAKER_02]: Many people never change the initial settings for their computers when they're set up or else they type in their first name as their password or that sort of thing.
[31:33.530 --> 31:36.610]  [SPEAKER_14]: All right, Steve, I'm going to break in because we do have Phiber Optik on the line.
[31:36.770 --> 31:37.390]  [SPEAKER_14]: Phiber, are you there?
[31:37.610 --> 31:38.230]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yes, I am.
[31:38.230 --> 31:39.210]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay, great.
[31:39.530 --> 31:46.470]  [SPEAKER_14]: Now, this is truly incredible that we're able to actually talk to you live from prison and we're very happy to be able to do so.
[31:46.930 --> 31:52.310]  [SPEAKER_14]: And I wish you were here right now because we're in one of our beg-a-thons as you've seen many times.
[31:53.510 --> 31:58.650]  [SPEAKER_14]: Perhaps in your voice, maybe coming from you, it'll mean more than coming from me.
[31:58.750 --> 32:00.150]  [SPEAKER_14]: You're locked up right now.
[32:00.230 --> 32:00.850]  [SPEAKER_14]: You're a prisoner.
[32:01.470 --> 32:03.250]  [SPEAKER_14]: You've been taken captive by the U.S.
[32:03.570 --> 32:06.030]  [SPEAKER_14]: government because you spoke your mind.
[32:06.610 --> 32:11.450]  [SPEAKER_14]: Now, is a radio station like WBAI worth supporting so people can speak their minds?
[32:11.690 --> 32:12.630]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, of course it is.
[32:12.710 --> 32:17.230]  [SPEAKER_15]: Where else would I have had a venue in order to voice my opinions along with you on this show?
[32:17.970 --> 32:18.570]  [SPEAKER_14]: That's right.
[32:18.710 --> 32:19.170]  [SPEAKER_14]: That's right.
[32:20.230 --> 32:32.570]  [SPEAKER_14]: And it's a way of keeping in touch not only with this particular case, but with all the cases that are going to be coming up in the future, all the new technological breakthroughs and, you know, use your imagination.
[32:32.870 --> 32:33.690]  [SPEAKER_14]: There's no limit.
[32:34.390 --> 32:38.130]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, there's a lot of people the state doesn't ever want you to hear about.
[32:38.890 --> 32:40.090]  [SPEAKER_14]: Oh, Phiber, I should introduce you.
[32:40.150 --> 32:42.890]  [SPEAKER_14]: Steve O'Keefe from Loompanics is on the other line.
[32:43.130 --> 32:43.890]  [SPEAKER_15]: Oh, how are you?
[32:44.150 --> 32:44.810]  [SPEAKER_15]: Fine, fine.
[32:45.050 --> 32:45.750]  [SPEAKER_15]: How are you?
[32:46.670 --> 32:47.990]  [SPEAKER_14]: Shaking virtual hands there.
[32:48.170 --> 32:50.750]  [SPEAKER_15]: I've seen better days, but it won't be long now.
[32:51.430 --> 32:52.990]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, we're down to...
[32:52.990 --> 32:54.010]  [SPEAKER_15]: Down to nine weeks.
[32:54.210 --> 32:54.810]  [SPEAKER_14]: Nine weeks.
[32:55.550 --> 33:00.390]  [SPEAKER_14]: Boy, you know, the time has gone really, painfully slowly.
[33:00.750 --> 33:00.830]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah.
[33:01.250 --> 33:06.430]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, let's give out your address so that if people want to get a hold of you, they can, or write to you anyway.
[33:06.690 --> 33:06.870]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.
[33:07.170 --> 33:09.810]  [SPEAKER_14]: I'm dropping a money order in the mail right now, actually.
[33:10.770 --> 33:11.170]  [SPEAKER_15]: Wonderful.
[33:11.450 --> 33:13.030]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, so hopefully I'll help with your phone expenses.
[33:13.110 --> 33:14.330]  [SPEAKER_14]: How's the phone account holding up?
[33:14.610 --> 33:15.850]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's doing okay right now.
[33:15.990 --> 33:16.410]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay, good.
[33:17.070 --> 33:19.110]  [SPEAKER_14]: Why don't you give your address out, and then...
[33:19.110 --> 33:35.410]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's my name, which is Mark with a K, M-A-R-K, and the last name is Ebene, A-B-E-N-E, and my inmate number is 3-2-1-0-9-0-5-4.
[33:36.510 --> 33:47.590]  [SPEAKER_15]: And that's F-P-C, as in Federal Prison Camp, school kill, S-C-H-U-Y-L-K-I-L-L.
[33:47.590 --> 33:49.570]  [SPEAKER_15]: And that's Unit 1.
[33:49.750 --> 33:51.110]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's the building that I'm in.
[33:51.590 --> 33:52.730]  [SPEAKER_15]: And it's P.O.
[33:52.790 --> 33:59.930]  [SPEAKER_15]: Box 670, Minersville, as in M-I-N-E-R, Pennsylvania.
[34:00.610 --> 34:07.150]  [SPEAKER_15]: And the zip is 1-7-9-5-4-0-6-7-0.
[34:07.450 --> 34:08.790]  [SPEAKER_14]: A whole lot of numbers there.
[34:09.010 --> 34:09.330]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah.
[34:09.510 --> 34:11.930]  [SPEAKER_14]: But you'll reach a person in the end.
[34:12.090 --> 34:18.390]  [SPEAKER_14]: And you know, the letters that people have sent, the listeners of this radio program have sent to Mark have really made a difference.
[34:18.890 --> 34:22.330]  [SPEAKER_14]: Just, I mean, hearing human contact, that means so much to you, doesn't it?
[34:22.430 --> 34:26.090]  [SPEAKER_15]: It really cheered me up a whole lot to get a lot of the letters that I did.
[34:26.970 --> 34:39.370]  [SPEAKER_14]: So if there's anything you want to send, newspaper clippings, just your thoughts on issues, please send them to Mark because that's the most important thing is just staying in touch.
[34:39.750 --> 34:44.010]  [SPEAKER_14]: I mean, I guess a lot of people in prison, they kind of lose touch with what's going on out there.
[34:44.090 --> 34:46.450]  [SPEAKER_14]: There must be people out there that don't get visitors, that don't get letters.
[34:46.710 --> 34:48.050]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, it's definitely true.
[34:48.550 --> 34:55.510]  [SPEAKER_15]: Just a minor thing that I want to let people know because it's happened in the past is that people have included envelopes with stamps on them.
[34:55.890 --> 34:58.810]  [SPEAKER_15]: And now that they don't let them through, they return them.
[34:59.010 --> 35:04.210]  [SPEAKER_15]: But just so people don't worry, they're not getting me into any kind of trouble or anything like that because some people get concerned.
[35:04.990 --> 35:05.370]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.
[35:05.370 --> 35:07.170]  [SPEAKER_15]: But they won't let any of that stuff through.
[35:07.330 --> 35:13.030]  [SPEAKER_15]: Anything that we can buy and pay for, they'll get money from, they won't let it come from the outside.
[35:14.050 --> 35:15.490]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, they let you get books in there?
[35:15.970 --> 35:16.470]  [SPEAKER_15]: Oh, yeah.
[35:16.790 --> 35:18.550]  [SPEAKER_15]: Books, provided that they're soft cover.
[35:19.010 --> 35:21.250]  [SPEAKER_15]: If they're hard cover, they have to come from the publisher directly.
[35:21.810 --> 35:23.470]  [SPEAKER_14]: Hey, you know, you guys are publishers, aren't you?
[35:23.650 --> 35:24.110]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's right.
[35:24.330 --> 35:24.590]  [SPEAKER_14]: Wow.
[35:25.450 --> 35:27.270]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, I have a feeling, Mark, you might be getting...
[35:27.270 --> 35:30.050]  [SPEAKER_14]: You've got to be careful, though, with some of the books that you guys put out.
[35:30.410 --> 35:31.950]  [SPEAKER_14]: I don't know if you want to be sending us to prison.
[35:32.090 --> 35:35.530]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, it is true that the rules in general don't apply to me.
[35:35.650 --> 35:38.670]  [SPEAKER_15]: I have apparently specific rules that only apply to myself.
[35:38.930 --> 35:40.330]  [SPEAKER_14]: And they're not privileges, are they?
[35:40.590 --> 35:44.970]  [SPEAKER_15]: No, and various types of mail that you would expect that I get, I don't.
[35:45.190 --> 35:47.950]  [SPEAKER_15]: My mail gets censored specifically.
[35:49.650 --> 35:54.070]  [SPEAKER_15]: And anything that they find objectionable in their own opinion is rejected.
[35:54.930 --> 35:57.370]  [SPEAKER_15]: And absolutely no explanation is necessary.
[35:57.510 --> 36:00.970]  [SPEAKER_15]: They just come out with some umbrella clause.
[36:02.330 --> 36:12.330]  [SPEAKER_15]: that any material that they find objectionable, all they say is that it constitutes a threat to the good order and discipline of the institution.
[36:12.950 --> 36:14.630]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we're familiar with that.
[36:14.810 --> 36:19.070]  [SPEAKER_02]: A lot of our books are banned from prisons under that same terminology.
[36:19.270 --> 36:19.450]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[36:20.990 --> 36:29.950]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, that's something, that's what's happening to someone that you heard here less than a year ago on this particular radio show in this particular studio.
[36:29.950 --> 36:32.150]  [SPEAKER_14]: And of course, in a couple of months you'll hear him again right here.
[36:32.430 --> 36:34.390]  [SPEAKER_14]: But for now, he's going through hell.
[36:34.590 --> 36:39.230]  [SPEAKER_14]: But fortunately, we can stay in touch with him through the phone.
[36:39.390 --> 36:41.570]  [SPEAKER_14]: This is really a miracle we're able to do this.
[36:42.930 --> 36:47.750]  [SPEAKER_14]: And by writing, and for the privileged few, we can visit.
[36:47.950 --> 36:50.430]  [SPEAKER_14]: But there are very few people that are allowed to do that, unfortunately.
[36:52.190 --> 36:54.710]  [SPEAKER_02]: Do they have any computers there in the prison?
[36:55.250 --> 36:55.570]  [SPEAKER_15]: No.
[36:56.410 --> 36:57.650]  [SPEAKER_15]: No, not at all.
[36:57.890 --> 37:01.470]  [SPEAKER_15]: In fact, I think it's hilarious when people actually ask me if I'm able to use a computer.
[37:01.730 --> 37:03.330]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, they have computers, but you can't use them.
[37:03.350 --> 37:03.730]  [SPEAKER_15]: Oh, yeah.
[37:03.870 --> 37:06.170]  [SPEAKER_15]: But I mean, when was the last time I saw a computer?
[37:06.410 --> 37:09.110]  [SPEAKER_15]: Since I've been here, I might have seen one two or three times.
[37:09.910 --> 37:11.310]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, they have them in the offices.
[37:12.070 --> 37:13.890]  [SPEAKER_14]: You know, they've all changed now, Mark.
[37:14.070 --> 37:15.130]  [SPEAKER_14]: The computers speak now.
[37:15.230 --> 37:16.750]  [SPEAKER_14]: You don't use keyboards anymore.
[37:16.890 --> 37:17.210]  [SPEAKER_15]: Oh, really?
[37:17.210 --> 37:17.510]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah.
[37:17.690 --> 37:22.570]  [SPEAKER_14]: No, you say computer just like on Star Trek, and they respond to you, and it's amazing.
[37:22.930 --> 37:24.210]  [SPEAKER_15]: I've really missed so much.
[37:24.310 --> 37:26.330]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, they've changed the shape of Coke bottles.
[37:26.450 --> 37:27.270]  [SPEAKER_14]: Everything has changed.
[37:27.490 --> 37:28.590]  [SPEAKER_14]: You won't recognize this place.
[37:29.430 --> 37:30.570]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's incredibly different.
[37:30.770 --> 37:33.550]  [SPEAKER_15]: Next, you'll be telling me we're traveling around on conveyor belts or something.
[37:33.650 --> 37:35.650]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, no, they'll never try that.
[37:36.770 --> 37:38.030]  [SPEAKER_14]: Moving sidewalks, that'd be great.
[37:38.590 --> 37:48.850]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, folks, we have $150, but that's not really very good, and what better way to show everybody that we care, that we're going to be there for them in the future, than to call up and pledge whatever you can.
[37:49.050 --> 37:52.610]  [SPEAKER_14]: You don't have to get the book if that's too much for you, but it's a great book.
[37:52.610 --> 37:53.170]  [SPEAKER_14]: It really is.
[37:53.270 --> 37:56.230]  [SPEAKER_14]: I've got a copy, and it's entertaining reading.
[37:56.830 --> 37:58.310]  [SPEAKER_14]: You can read this for many hours.
[37:59.530 --> 38:00.950]  [SPEAKER_14]: 212-279-3400.
[38:01.110 --> 38:08.310]  [SPEAKER_14]: Please, let's light up those phones and show Phiber Optik and the folks at Loompanics that people in New York care about freedom of speech.
[38:08.410 --> 38:10.690]  [SPEAKER_14]: They care about freedom in general.
[38:10.870 --> 38:13.850]  [SPEAKER_14]: They care about publishing and various things like that.
[38:14.770 --> 38:16.150]  [SPEAKER_14]: There's so much in this book.
[38:16.430 --> 38:18.770]  [SPEAKER_14]: Now, Steve, you were going over the book right before Mark called.
[38:19.050 --> 38:19.130]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah.
[38:19.290 --> 38:20.250]  [SPEAKER_14]: Tell us a little bit more about it.
[38:20.330 --> 38:21.230]  [SPEAKER_14]: Mark, have you heard about this book?
[38:21.610 --> 38:22.950]  [SPEAKER_15]: I didn't hear the title of the book.
[38:23.410 --> 38:25.050]  [SPEAKER_14]: I'm sorry, Secrets of a Super Hacker.
[38:25.730 --> 38:26.050]  [SPEAKER_15]: Oh.
[38:26.350 --> 38:26.950]  [SPEAKER_14]: You haven't heard about it.
[38:27.010 --> 38:27.830]  [SPEAKER_14]: This has come out...
[38:27.830 --> 38:29.290]  [SPEAKER_14]: When was this published?
[38:29.470 --> 38:31.230]  [SPEAKER_02]: It came out in March.
[38:31.710 --> 38:32.790]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay, so you would have missed that.
[38:33.010 --> 38:33.190]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[38:33.590 --> 38:36.950]  [SPEAKER_14]: Maybe we can try sending you a copy, although it probably will come back.
[38:37.770 --> 38:40.390]  [SPEAKER_14]: This is material that Mark is not allowed to read right now.
[38:40.490 --> 38:40.810]  [SPEAKER_14]: Think of it.
[38:40.890 --> 38:41.750]  [SPEAKER_14]: You can get this
[38:48.530 --> 38:50.390]  [SPEAKER_02]: And then he'll see you here before I leave.
[38:50.610 --> 38:50.670]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[38:50.830 --> 38:50.990]  [SPEAKER_02]: All right.
[38:51.150 --> 38:52.610]  [SPEAKER_02]: And then he'll come back and he'll catch up.
[38:53.010 --> 38:58.170]  [SPEAKER_02]: Unfortunately, we're following some of this information we'll end up at.
[38:58.610 --> 38:59.010]  [SPEAKER_02]: So...
[38:59.010 --> 39:00.170]  [SPEAKER_14]: A list of passwords?
[39:01.070 --> 39:04.550]  [SPEAKER_02]: Exercise care in using information like this.
[39:04.670 --> 39:04.810]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah.
[39:04.910 --> 39:05.590]  [SPEAKER_14]: Be very careful.
[39:05.950 --> 39:08.090]  [SPEAKER_14]: 212-279-3400, please.
[39:08.190 --> 39:09.410]  [SPEAKER_14]: We have three calls on the line.
[39:09.510 --> 39:12.530]  [SPEAKER_14]: Let's make that seven because seven is our grand total here.
[39:12.650 --> 39:16.250]  [SPEAKER_14]: And it'd be great to get a bingo as we're talking to these two fine people.
[39:16.470 --> 39:20.710]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, maybe one thing I'd like to say is an incentive for people to donate is...
[39:20.710 --> 39:21.130]  [SPEAKER_14]: Four calls.
[39:21.270 --> 39:28.150]  [SPEAKER_02]: The Loompanic's catalog, which is a huge catalog of books and kind of a cult favorite, is a $5 item.
[39:28.370 --> 39:34.890]  [SPEAKER_02]: But, folks, I'd rather have you give the $5 to the radio station, WBAI.
[39:35.090 --> 39:42.370]  [SPEAKER_02]: So if you call our phone number and say that you heard Steve O'Keefe on the radio, they'll send you a catalog for free.
[39:43.010 --> 39:44.510]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay, well, we'll work that out.
[39:44.690 --> 39:47.390]  [SPEAKER_14]: We'll somehow get that to them, but you will get that.
[39:47.690 --> 39:49.570]  [SPEAKER_14]: 212-279-3400.
[39:50.270 --> 39:51.450]  [SPEAKER_14]: Please add to the...
[39:51.450 --> 39:52.730]  [SPEAKER_14]: Oh, we're up to $250 now.
[39:52.730 --> 39:53.750]  [SPEAKER_14]: You see, this is how it happens.
[39:54.330 --> 40:00.930]  [SPEAKER_14]: If enough people call in, we're going to break $1,000 pretty soon, and that's a much better number than $150, isn't it?
[40:01.150 --> 40:01.310]  Yeah.
[40:01.610 --> 40:07.090]  [SPEAKER_14]: And that money goes to keeping this radio station on the air, to keeping this radio show going.
[40:07.730 --> 40:19.150]  [SPEAKER_14]: You know, the little things, buying, editing tape and recording tape and paying the phone bill and things like that, because, you know, we have to make phone calls to have guests on the radio, and it all adds up.
[40:19.270 --> 40:23.770]  [SPEAKER_14]: I don't know how many people out there have ever operated a radio station, but it does really add up.
[40:23.870 --> 40:25.510]  [SPEAKER_14]: And the thing is, nobody here gets paid.
[40:25.590 --> 40:26.010]  [SPEAKER_14]: That's right.
[40:26.010 --> 40:31.530]  [SPEAKER_14]: We don't get paid for doing radio shows, we don't get paid for all the work that we do, because we just want to do it, we want to get the word out.
[40:31.890 --> 40:34.350]  [SPEAKER_14]: You know, no commercial radio station is going to air this kind of thing.
[40:34.390 --> 40:39.850]  [SPEAKER_14]: How many commercial radio stations have you heard that talk about these issues in intelligent terms?
[40:39.850 --> 40:40.510]  [SPEAKER_14]: You don't.
[40:41.090 --> 40:51.990]  [SPEAKER_14]: And there's a reason for that, because, you know, the big mega corporations advertise on them, and they kind of keep pressure to keep things from becoming a little too serious.
[40:52.670 --> 40:55.290]  [SPEAKER_14]: So that's why you've got a call, 212-279-3400.
[40:55.430 --> 40:56.350]  [SPEAKER_14]: Pledge whatever you can afford.
[40:56.450 --> 40:57.910]  [SPEAKER_14]: Use your Visa, use your MasterCard.
[40:58.250 --> 41:00.650]  [SPEAKER_14]: If you're in your car, use your car phone if you have one.
[41:00.790 --> 41:01.850]  [SPEAKER_14]: Otherwise, pull over to a payphone.
[41:02.710 --> 41:04.130]  [SPEAKER_14]: 212-279-3400.
[41:04.310 --> 41:04.950]  [SPEAKER_14]: Call your friends.
[41:08.840 --> 41:09.200]  [SPEAKER_14]: There.
[41:09.380 --> 41:10.820]  [SPEAKER_14]: That moment of silence was for drama.
[41:13.040 --> 41:14.780]  [SPEAKER_14]: Mark, now, you're...
[41:15.400 --> 41:16.640]  [SPEAKER_14]: What's going on over there right now?
[41:17.340 --> 41:17.680]  [SPEAKER_15]: Here?
[41:17.880 --> 41:18.080]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah.
[41:19.560 --> 41:20.440]  [SPEAKER_15]: Not very much.
[41:20.540 --> 41:21.780]  [SPEAKER_15]: A few people are watching TV.
[41:23.160 --> 41:24.940]  [SPEAKER_15]: A bunch of people are using the phone.
[41:25.400 --> 41:25.680]  [SPEAKER_14]: Uh-huh.
[41:26.260 --> 41:27.680]  [SPEAKER_14]: Are you going to be able to stay on for a while?
[41:29.160 --> 41:33.400]  [SPEAKER_15]: Um, right now, uh, I won't be able to call immediately back, but I can try calling back afterwards.
[41:33.720 --> 41:35.280]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay, because there are people waiting for the phone.
[41:35.440 --> 41:35.600]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah.
[41:35.840 --> 41:39.860]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay, so why don't we give you the balance of the time to say, you know, whatever is on your mind.
[41:40.180 --> 41:54.620]  [SPEAKER_15]: All right, well, um, what I did do today is that I looked at the calendar, and I noticed that, uh, the day that I get back, November 22nd, is a Tuesday, which means that if there is going to be a radio show the following night, I can go be on the show.
[41:54.620 --> 41:55.680]  [SPEAKER_14]: Wow, that'd be great.
[41:55.780 --> 41:56.180]  [SPEAKER_15]: Next day.
[41:56.560 --> 41:58.040]  [SPEAKER_14]: That's what, November 23rd?
[41:58.140 --> 41:59.200]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, it's a Wednesday.
[41:59.400 --> 42:01.480]  [SPEAKER_14]: So, the day after you get out, that'd be amazing.
[42:01.720 --> 42:01.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[42:02.620 --> 42:04.900]  [SPEAKER_14]: That's something to mark on, uh, our calendars.
[42:05.720 --> 42:08.920]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you'll have a lot to be thankful for this Thanksgiving, huh?
[42:08.980 --> 42:09.640]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's true.
[42:11.020 --> 42:22.240]  [SPEAKER_14]: We're up to $400, by the way, but we have no calls on the line, so, uh, if you're trying to get through, you can get through now, there's nobody there, 212-279-3400, and, uh, I think we have a total of 20 of these books, is that right, Steve?
[42:22.420 --> 42:22.900]  [SPEAKER_07]: That's right.
[42:23.060 --> 42:26.640]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay, and, uh, we do appreciate your, uh, donation to the radio station.
[42:27.060 --> 42:30.760]  [SPEAKER_14]: Uh, we, we kind of have to stick together, all of us that, uh, stand up for freedom of speech.
[42:31.360 --> 42:36.000]  [SPEAKER_14]: Uh, Mark, did you happen to see the NBC show, uh, Dateline NBC that had, uh, Loompanics on it?
[42:36.320 --> 42:39.220]  [SPEAKER_15]: No, no, we, we never really get to see normal TV here.
[42:39.480 --> 42:39.760]  [SPEAKER_14]: Really?
[42:40.700 --> 42:42.460]  [SPEAKER_15]: No one really watches normal TV.
[42:42.720 --> 42:43.600]  [SPEAKER_02]: What do they watch?
[42:43.680 --> 42:44.420]  [SPEAKER_02]: Love Connection?
[42:44.680 --> 42:52.660]  [SPEAKER_15]: Oh, well, um, there's, uh, one of two things on, either sports, which, uh, as far as I'm concerned, uh, I'd, I'd rather not watch anything.
[42:52.840 --> 42:53.000]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[42:53.000 --> 42:58.760]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, um, the only cable, uh, channel that anybody ever really watches is HBO.
[42:59.800 --> 43:06.400]  [SPEAKER_15]: So you figure either we're watching a movie that we've seen 20 times already, or else, uh, somebody's watching sports, and that's about it.
[43:06.540 --> 43:08.120]  [SPEAKER_15]: No one watches normal television.
[43:09.160 --> 43:10.140]  [SPEAKER_14]: Wow, that's interesting.
[43:10.840 --> 43:20.900]  [SPEAKER_14]: Um, but, you know, not to give the impression that people are lounging around watching HBO, there's, uh, there's the downside to all of that, and that's that everybody has to, uh, has to perform menial labor.
[43:21.120 --> 43:22.180]  [SPEAKER_15]: Oh, yeah, exactly.
[43:22.180 --> 43:24.020]  [SPEAKER_15]: We're not just lounging around all day.
[43:24.120 --> 43:24.860]  [SPEAKER_15]: This is only at night.
[43:25.420 --> 43:28.300]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, during the day, everyone has a job doing something.
[43:29.720 --> 43:30.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh-huh.
[43:30.400 --> 43:47.880]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, whether it's, uh, it's mainly the upkeep of the institution is the main job, keeping things clean and so on, or working in the dining hall, or, uh, landscaping, which is, uh, a nifty term for either weed whacking or in the wintertime, which is what I was doing with shoveling snow.
[43:49.640 --> 43:58.940]  [SPEAKER_15]: And, uh, apart from that, there's, uh, Unicor, which is, uh, a very interesting company that exists at every single federal institution, every single federal prison.
[43:59.020 --> 43:59.900]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, this is scary.
[44:00.180 --> 44:12.560]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, this is basically a corporation owned and operated by the government that employs, uh, prisoners as slave laborers to provide, uh, products for other prisons and for the military.
[44:13.660 --> 44:17.920]  [SPEAKER_14]: And this, this is not an exaggeration because when you employ people and pay them, what, how much per hour?
[44:18.380 --> 44:21.420]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, well, I myself get paid about 12 cents.
[44:21.580 --> 44:25.660]  [SPEAKER_15]: They probably get paid, uh, maybe a 40 cents or maybe even 50 cents an hour.
[44:25.800 --> 44:28.960]  [SPEAKER_14]: So they're, they're really swaggering around there with all that extra money.
[44:29.100 --> 44:29.200]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[44:29.400 --> 44:40.680]  [SPEAKER_14]: 40 or 50 cents an hour, and, uh, it's kind of, kind of pressure to, to work in this place because otherwise you wind up in a maximum security prison, and, uh, you have to build furniture, and this furniture is used by the U.S.
[44:40.780 --> 44:43.000]  [SPEAKER_14]: government in various ways.
[44:43.500 --> 44:44.220]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yep, this is true.
[44:45.080 --> 44:46.040]  [SPEAKER_14]: That's, uh, that's incredible.
[44:46.220 --> 44:48.740]  [SPEAKER_14]: Now, uh, you, you yourself are not working for Unicor, though.
[44:48.880 --> 44:54.320]  [SPEAKER_15]: No, no, they tend to, uh, target people that have a long, much longer sentences that are going to be around for a while.
[44:54.580 --> 44:54.840]  [SPEAKER_15]: Mm-hmm.
[44:55.860 --> 44:56.940]  [SPEAKER_14]: Any idea why they do that?
[44:57.180 --> 45:03.900]  [SPEAKER_15]: Oh, yeah, because, um, they don't want to, I, I, I assume that the people that are going to be here for a while are going to be more worried about, uh, expenses.
[45:04.520 --> 45:14.760]  [SPEAKER_15]: So, I, I, I guess they try to entice them with the, uh, little extra money that they would be making, as opposed to, uh, you know, a more menial job.
[45:15.840 --> 45:16.120]  [SPEAKER_14]: Uh-huh.
[45:17.400 --> 45:22.520]  [SPEAKER_14]: Uh, that is really, uh, really something, though, um, I mean, I, I never heard about Unicor before you went in there.
[45:22.660 --> 45:25.980]  [SPEAKER_14]: So, I mean, even though you're in prison, we're still able to learn things.
[45:26.260 --> 45:26.460]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[45:27.700 --> 45:33.060]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we have a couple of books on that probably would have been helpful to you on surviving in prison.
[45:33.400 --> 45:35.720]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, uh, um, it really is.
[45:35.840 --> 45:42.940]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's, I, I gotta imagine that the, the noise and the lack of control over your living conditions have to be some of the Yeah.
[45:43.420 --> 45:45.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: major hassles of being there.
[45:46.160 --> 45:46.520]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh-huh.
[45:46.960 --> 45:52.880]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, we have a new book coming out by Jim Hogshire called, um, you're going to prison.
[45:53.300 --> 46:13.860]  [SPEAKER_02]: Um, and it covers a lot of information that might help people actually stay out of prison, like the importance of your pre-trial sentencing report and how the system's gonna handle you and different ways along the chain from the time that they slap the cuffs on you to the time that they put you in prison where you have an opportunity to make things go easier.
[46:14.320 --> 46:14.640]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah.
[46:15.240 --> 46:19.420]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, I don't mean to interrupt, but I just got my final click notification that I'm gonna be disconnected.
[46:19.800 --> 46:20.660]  [SPEAKER_14]: How long do you have?
[46:21.000 --> 46:22.160]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, a few seconds now.
[46:22.420 --> 46:22.660]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay.
[46:22.840 --> 46:24.240]  [SPEAKER_14]: So, uh, how long is the line?
[46:25.380 --> 46:26.100]  [SPEAKER_14]: Oh, he's gone.
[46:26.920 --> 46:33.560]  [SPEAKER_14]: Oh, I can't tell you what a pain it is talking to somebody under these conditions, but, uh, he'll call back, I guess, when he gets, uh, the chance.
[46:33.680 --> 46:36.620]  [SPEAKER_14]: He has to wait on line again, and, um, hopefully we'll hear from him again tonight.
[46:37.140 --> 46:38.460]  [SPEAKER_14]: Uh, again, this is Off the Hook.
[46:38.620 --> 46:50.240]  [SPEAKER_14]: We're on until midnight tonight, and, uh, we have with us, uh, Steve O'Keefe from, uh, Loompanics, uh, publishing all kinds of, uh, of, uh, I guess, risque material in the eyes of, of some.
[46:50.620 --> 46:58.140]  [SPEAKER_14]: Um, things on, on how to hack, how to make bombs, how to, uh, what are some of the other ones that people might be shocked by?
[46:58.920 --> 47:04.340]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, we have a book called Successful Armed Robbery, written by a guy who's in the pen, actually.
[47:04.820 --> 47:18.040]  [SPEAKER_02]: Um, he was successful at it for years before he went under, and I think it's just fascinating to take a look at what really goes through the mind of somebody, um, as they're committing robberies, et cetera.
[47:18.340 --> 47:18.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh-huh.
[47:18.660 --> 47:26.800]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's, uh, it's a lot more chilling than, say, reading some Hollywood or seeing some Hollywood dramatized version of it on the screen.
[47:27.580 --> 47:39.000]  [SPEAKER_02]: Um, we have a lot of books on fake ID, and we actually have quite a large section on, on prison, life in prison, surviving in prison, making weapons in prison.
[47:39.000 --> 47:52.500]  [SPEAKER_02]: Um, it's really, it's stunning how many laws there, there are in this country, and sooner or later, almost everybody winds up on, on the wrong side of that, even if it's as simple as a traffic citation or something.
[47:53.220 --> 48:03.460]  [SPEAKER_02]: Nowadays, they can, uh, with asset forfeiture, they can virtually, you know, steal you blind if you violate any of the million laws that they've passed on the books.
[48:03.960 --> 48:14.980]  [SPEAKER_02]: And this is fueling this whole criminal justice system, which, as we see now, is linked up with some, some corporations that are using, uh, prisoners as slave labor.
[48:15.160 --> 48:31.500]  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, the whole thing reeks, you know, it's, it's like, uh, the war on drugs is a growth industry for law enforcement in the United States, and, and, um, anybody who steps on the wrong side of the law now isn't just facing a reprimand or being incarcerated,
[48:31.500 --> 48:36.780]  [SPEAKER_02]: they're also losing all their assets, their family and relatives may have their assets taken.
[48:36.840 --> 48:39.720]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's just, uh, it's gotten to be ridiculous.
[48:40.000 --> 48:45.020]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, I mean, I've heard that, uh, we're reaching the stage where, you know, a very large percentage of the U.S.
[48:45.120 --> 48:53.760]  [SPEAKER_14]: population is, is going to be imprisoned in the next, uh, couple of decades, and, um, and a large part of the remainder is going to be in charge of keeping them in prison.
[48:53.960 --> 48:54.840]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's, it's kind of scary.
[48:55.060 --> 48:56.560]  [SPEAKER_14]: Happy to say we've got Mark back.
[48:56.720 --> 48:57.280]  [SPEAKER_14]: Welcome back, Mark.
[48:57.540 --> 48:58.000]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, thanks.
[48:58.060 --> 48:59.240]  [SPEAKER_15]: I was able to make a call back.
[48:59.360 --> 48:59.780]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'm surprised.
[49:00.200 --> 49:01.400]  [SPEAKER_14]: Wow, do you have to bribe somebody?
[49:02.260 --> 49:03.260]  [SPEAKER_15]: No, nothing like that.
[49:03.480 --> 49:03.700]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay.
[49:03.700 --> 49:04.840]  [SPEAKER_15]: A couple of cigarettes, huh?
[49:05.280 --> 49:05.500]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah.
[49:05.760 --> 49:09.000]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, cigarettes there are like the, uh, uh, the currency, right?
[49:09.280 --> 49:09.960]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, that's true.
[49:10.120 --> 49:11.200]  [SPEAKER_15]: Cigarettes and tuna fish.
[49:11.460 --> 49:12.200]  [SPEAKER_14]: Tuna fish?
[49:12.400 --> 49:12.580]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah.
[49:12.880 --> 49:14.200]  [SPEAKER_15]: Can people send you cigarettes?
[49:14.440 --> 49:15.200]  [SPEAKER_15]: Oh, no, no.
[49:15.500 --> 49:21.000]  [SPEAKER_15]: Like I said before, anything that we are forced to buy here, we can't get from any other source.
[49:21.680 --> 49:23.480]  [SPEAKER_14]: And what are the things that you're forced to buy there?
[49:24.260 --> 49:27.820]  [SPEAKER_15]: Oh, I mean, I mean, what I mean basically is like food and things like that.
[49:28.660 --> 49:31.360]  [SPEAKER_15]: Cigarettes, uh, certain types of clothing.
[49:33.220 --> 49:33.740]  [SPEAKER_15]: Stamps.
[49:34.160 --> 49:35.960]  [SPEAKER_15]: All the basic necessities.
[49:38.620 --> 49:40.640]  [SPEAKER_15]: Saving equipment, I imagine.
[49:40.860 --> 49:41.580]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, exactly.
[49:42.240 --> 49:43.580]  [SPEAKER_15]: Toiletries, anything like that.
[49:43.740 --> 49:43.860]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah.
[49:44.120 --> 49:45.420]  [SPEAKER_15]: And we have to pay their prices.
[49:46.360 --> 49:46.880]  [SPEAKER_06]: Wow.
[49:47.660 --> 49:50.480]  [SPEAKER_15]: Are their prices as low as what they pay at a work?
[49:51.360 --> 49:52.500]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, it depends.
[49:52.800 --> 49:56.980]  [SPEAKER_15]: Some things are more expensive than you'd expect and other things are, I guess, fair.
[49:57.980 --> 49:58.260]  [SPEAKER_14]: Mm-hmm.
[49:59.680 --> 50:06.080]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, we don't know about the phone company yet, though, because, uh, Mark, have you heard from anybody that got a bill from Loctell yet?
[50:06.480 --> 50:13.140]  [SPEAKER_15]: Um, what I heard, I heard today from, uh, someone who got a bill, they did mail me a copy of it, which I haven't gotten yet.
[50:13.600 --> 50:21.360]  [SPEAKER_15]: But, um, they said something to the effect that, uh, a 15-minute call to New York City was roughly, uh, $4 and some change.
[50:21.680 --> 50:22.520]  [SPEAKER_14]: That's not too bad.
[50:22.520 --> 50:23.460]  [SPEAKER_15]: It wasn't too bad.
[50:23.560 --> 50:23.800]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay.
[50:23.940 --> 50:26.280]  [SPEAKER_15]: If that's, in fact, correct, I'll have to see once I get the bill.
[50:26.460 --> 50:27.920]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay, then I guess we'll be getting bills, too.
[50:28.440 --> 50:28.620]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[50:28.880 --> 50:33.320]  [SPEAKER_02]: So, I'm curious, are there other political prisoners in the prison that you're at?
[50:33.800 --> 50:34.720]  [SPEAKER_14]: Besides Mike Tyson.
[50:36.460 --> 50:37.800]  [SPEAKER_02]: Is Tyson in your prison?
[50:38.280 --> 50:38.640]  [SPEAKER_14]: No.
[50:39.080 --> 50:42.320]  [SPEAKER_14]: No, actually, Mark, you probably didn't see the MTV Awards, did you?
[50:42.500 --> 50:43.640]  [SPEAKER_15]: No, no, we don't get MTV.
[50:44.040 --> 50:44.260]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah.
[50:44.980 --> 50:46.880]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, okay, we'll tell you about that when you get out.
[50:47.300 --> 50:47.520]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah.
[50:48.820 --> 50:52.900]  [SPEAKER_14]: Again, before you answer that, uh, 212-279-3400 is our phone number.
[50:53.140 --> 50:59.000]  [SPEAKER_14]: Uh, in case you didn't hear it before, anybody that calls in with any pledge, is it, did I read you correctly, Steve?
[50:59.300 --> 51:02.320]  [SPEAKER_14]: You guys will donate a copy of, uh, of the catalog.
[51:02.760 --> 51:12.380]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I was going to say if they call us, we'll give them a free copy of the catalog and, in hopes that they'll take that money that they're saving and donate it to the station.
[51:12.560 --> 51:16.120]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, what we can do is we can fax you a list of the people and then that way you can...
[51:16.120 --> 51:16.360]  [SPEAKER_14]: That'd be great.
[51:16.460 --> 51:20.500]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'd be happy to send free catalogs to anybody who makes any donation.
[51:20.740 --> 51:34.900]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay, now, a Loompanics catalog, I should point out, those of you that went to the 2600 meeting last, uh, last week, we had some left over from Hope, um, and, um, those of you that were diving for that box, and some of you have hit your heads together rather hard,
[51:34.960 --> 51:41.700]  [SPEAKER_14]: and I do apologize for that, uh, in the scramble to get what was in the box, what you were trying to get were a Loompanics catalogs.
[51:41.760 --> 51:49.740]  [SPEAKER_14]: So this is a great way to show your appreciation for the radio station, get a Loompanics catalog, and, and, you know, realize that you cracked your head open for a good reason.
[51:50.520 --> 51:52.500]  [SPEAKER_14]: Uh, 212-279-3400.
[51:52.660 --> 51:56.260]  [SPEAKER_14]: Now, if you pledge $75, you'll get that, and you'll get Secrets of a Super Hacker.
[51:56.660 --> 52:05.880]  [SPEAKER_14]: Uh, if you, uh, pledge any other amount, uh, well, I guess if you pledge any amount less than $75, you'll, you'll get the, uh, the catalog, and if you pledge above that, you'll get the book and the catalog.
[52:06.360 --> 52:11.320]  [SPEAKER_14]: Um, now, Loompanics catalog, they're, they're kind of legendary because they're, they're so big.
[52:11.640 --> 52:11.960]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[52:12.420 --> 52:14.400]  [SPEAKER_14]: I mean, these really are valuable commodities.
[52:14.700 --> 52:17.440]  [SPEAKER_02]: It costs us a couple of bucks just to put it in the mail.
[52:17.660 --> 52:21.460]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, just to put it in the mail, let alone printing and, and, and compiling the thing.
[52:21.560 --> 52:22.840]  [SPEAKER_14]: I mean, how many titles do you have in there?
[52:23.260 --> 52:29.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: There's, um, there's, uh, almost, well, now with, uh, we have supplements that come out every two months.
[52:29.440 --> 52:37.700]  [SPEAKER_02]: So with the supplements, we're over a thousand books, books, which are all available for sale, all of them difficult to find anywhere else.
[52:37.780 --> 52:39.780]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay, we have five calls on the line, five calls.
[52:39.900 --> 52:41.700]  [SPEAKER_14]: So that means two more calls, and we'll get a bingo.
[52:41.840 --> 52:43.680]  [SPEAKER_14]: 212-279-3400.
[52:43.920 --> 52:59.500]  [SPEAKER_14]: Show your support for freedom of speech, for, for books, for reading material of all sorts, and, uh, for, uh, for WBAI, and for the hacker world, too, because, uh, a lot of what we're going through is, is kind of symbolic of what everybody's going through at some stage in their lives,
[53:00.040 --> 53:07.100]  [SPEAKER_14]: uh, the, the drive for independence, the drive for, uh, you know, for being able to speak your mind, and being able to live your life in a free manner.
[53:07.320 --> 53:09.020]  [SPEAKER_14]: 212-279-3400.
[53:09.180 --> 53:10.180]  [SPEAKER_14]: We're one away from a bingo.
[53:10.320 --> 53:13.120]  [SPEAKER_14]: Only one call left, and we have every line lit.
[53:13.440 --> 53:14.960]  [SPEAKER_14]: 212-279-3400.
[53:15.180 --> 53:20.900]  [SPEAKER_14]: Remember, every, uh, every call gets a catalog, every, uh, $75 pledge.
[53:21.460 --> 53:22.440]  [SPEAKER_14]: Are you joking me?
[53:22.960 --> 53:23.800]  [SPEAKER_15]: By the way, Emmanuel.
[53:23.840 --> 53:24.440]  [SPEAKER_14]: This is horrible.
[53:24.680 --> 53:26.240]  [SPEAKER_14]: Uh, I, I asked, no, I don't want that.
[53:26.340 --> 53:30.820]  [SPEAKER_14]: I don't want, I asked for something to drink, and they're giving me this, this awful stuff that I've never heard of before.
[53:31.420 --> 53:34.580]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay, I'm sorry, uh, yeah, that's, that's my trivial needs, never mind.
[53:34.860 --> 53:37.340]  [SPEAKER_15]: Emmanuel, I saw somebody interesting here that we can talk to.
[53:37.620 --> 53:38.300]  [SPEAKER_14]: Somebody interesting?
[53:38.520 --> 53:41.880]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, the reason why I say that he's, uh, interesting is because he just happens to be an attorney.
[53:42.480 --> 53:43.600]  [SPEAKER_14]: An attorney in prison?
[53:43.760 --> 53:43.960]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yes.
[53:44.080 --> 53:44.580]  [SPEAKER_14]: He's a prisoner?
[53:44.860 --> 53:45.120]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yes.
[53:45.300 --> 53:45.580]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay.
[53:45.940 --> 53:50.500]  [SPEAKER_15]: I think it'd be, uh, a valuable, uh, point of view that we could, we could hear.
[53:50.760 --> 53:51.700]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay, point him on.
[53:51.840 --> 53:52.640]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay, hold on a second.
[53:52.920 --> 53:54.840]  [SPEAKER_14]: This is great, we're getting guest speakers from prison.
[53:55.160 --> 53:55.960]  [SPEAKER_15]: Hey, that's cool.
[53:59.590 --> 54:01.670]  [SPEAKER_14]: And by the way, we have every line lit right now.
[54:01.670 --> 54:03.590]  [SPEAKER_14]: So, very, very happy to announce that.
[54:04.050 --> 54:04.270]  [SPEAKER_13]: Hello?
[54:04.690 --> 54:05.750]  [SPEAKER_14]: Hi, who are we talking to?
[54:06.010 --> 54:07.890]  [SPEAKER_13]: Uh, my name is Sal, I'm an attorney here.
[54:08.150 --> 54:08.570]  [SPEAKER_14]: Hi, Sal.
[54:08.930 --> 54:09.150]  Yep.
[54:09.690 --> 54:14.950]  [SPEAKER_14]: Uh, this is Emmanuel and we're on the phone with, uh, Steve from, uh, from Washington State, who, uh, is a publisher.
[54:15.890 --> 54:18.250]  [SPEAKER_14]: Um, tell us, uh, tell us what you're there for.
[54:18.590 --> 54:23.050]  [SPEAKER_13]: I'm here for a crime that's called cash structuring a transaction, money transaction.
[54:23.230 --> 54:24.350]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's where you cash a check.
[54:24.690 --> 54:25.050]  [SPEAKER_14]: Uh-huh.
[54:25.430 --> 54:29.610]  [SPEAKER_13]: Uh, for over $10,000 in denominations of under $10,000.
[54:30.550 --> 54:31.170]  [SPEAKER_14]: I see.
[54:31.170 --> 54:32.230]  [SPEAKER_14]: That sounds kind of confusing.
[54:32.730 --> 54:41.890]  [SPEAKER_13]: In other words, if you want $15,000 for some purpose and you cash it at intervals of $7,500 and $7,500 instead of one of $15,000.
[54:42.070 --> 54:43.890]  [SPEAKER_02]: So you can do time for that?
[54:44.030 --> 54:44.770]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yes, you can.
[54:45.170 --> 54:45.330]  [SPEAKER_13]: Gee.
[54:46.410 --> 54:52.810]  [SPEAKER_13]: And, uh, the reason being is the bank files a currency transaction report if the transaction is over $10,000.
[54:52.930 --> 54:59.410]  [SPEAKER_13]: So what you're doing is, is, is, uh, forcing the bank not to file a form, in a sense.
[54:59.590 --> 55:05.970]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we got about a dozen books on all of that aspects of financial shenanigans in our catalog.
[55:06.430 --> 55:06.750]  [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[55:07.030 --> 55:09.910]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, that's a, that's a, that's, that's some of the charges.
[55:10.010 --> 55:15.010]  [SPEAKER_13]: A lot of people hear on that, too, that of some sort of, some sort of variation of money laundering, too.
[55:15.170 --> 55:16.890]  [SPEAKER_14]: How, uh, how long did they give you for that?
[55:16.890 --> 55:18.050]  [SPEAKER_13]: I got a year and a day.
[55:18.330 --> 55:19.390]  [SPEAKER_14]: Same sentence as Mark.
[55:19.930 --> 55:20.270]  [SPEAKER_14]: That's right.
[55:20.450 --> 55:22.570]  [SPEAKER_14]: Did you know at the time that that was even a crime?
[55:22.830 --> 55:22.970]  [SPEAKER_13]: No.
[55:23.870 --> 55:24.250]  [SPEAKER_13]: Incredible.
[55:24.710 --> 55:28.710]  [SPEAKER_13]: I practiced civil law on the state level, city level, actually, New York City.
[55:29.110 --> 55:32.230]  [SPEAKER_13]: I didn't even have federal law books in my, uh, you know, in my office.
[55:32.390 --> 55:33.430]  [SPEAKER_13]: Never practiced federal law.
[55:33.770 --> 55:33.990]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh-huh.
[55:34.290 --> 55:36.950]  [SPEAKER_13]: And I, the law, the law only passed in 86.
[55:37.670 --> 55:40.170]  [SPEAKER_13]: They call it the Smurfing law, you know, Smurfing stature.
[55:40.410 --> 55:41.510]  [SPEAKER_13]: It only passed in 86.
[55:41.690 --> 55:43.170]  [SPEAKER_13]: I just was completely unaware of it.
[55:43.170 --> 55:51.050]  [SPEAKER_14]: So let's say you get a check for, say, $15,000, and you only cash half of it, and then you cash another half of it.
[55:51.170 --> 55:51.470]  [SPEAKER_13]: Right.
[55:51.790 --> 55:53.310]  [SPEAKER_14]: You're committing a crime by doing that.
[55:53.470 --> 55:54.010]  [SPEAKER_13]: That is correct.
[55:54.530 --> 55:55.910]  [SPEAKER_14]: I, I would never have known that.
[55:56.170 --> 55:58.650]  [SPEAKER_02]: You're, you're evading the law, which says that anything...
[55:58.650 --> 55:59.670]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, you know what happened now?
[55:59.770 --> 56:05.330]  [SPEAKER_13]: Supreme Court in January of 94 said that it has to be, uh, you have to have knowledge of the law for it to be illegal now.
[56:05.610 --> 56:07.830]  [SPEAKER_13]: That doesn't help me at this point.
[56:08.130 --> 56:14.270]  [SPEAKER_14]: You mean, even though, even though they've ruled that what you got sent in for isn't, isn't a crime, you're still in prison?
[56:14.670 --> 56:17.690]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, because it would cost too much money to fight the system to get out of here.
[56:18.550 --> 56:19.190]  [SPEAKER_14]: That's incredible.
[56:20.010 --> 56:22.370]  [SPEAKER_14]: Uh, Sal, do you want to give your address for people to write to you?
[56:22.630 --> 56:23.730]  [SPEAKER_13]: Same address as Mark's.
[56:23.830 --> 56:25.030]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, okay, but it's a different name.
[56:25.230 --> 56:28.110]  [SPEAKER_13]: The last name is Spinelli, S-P-I-N-E-L-L-I.
[56:28.330 --> 56:29.570]  [SPEAKER_14]: And you have a number, too, don't you?
[56:29.830 --> 56:31.030]  [SPEAKER_13]: Oh, you mean my prison number.
[56:31.150 --> 56:31.890]  [SPEAKER_13]: I forgot about that.
[56:32.070 --> 56:36.750]  [SPEAKER_13]: You know, 34027-054.
[56:37.590 --> 56:37.910]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay.
[56:38.290 --> 56:40.790]  [SPEAKER_14]: Hey, you know, that 054, that means you're from New York, doesn't it?
[56:40.790 --> 56:43.310]  [SPEAKER_13]: That the, uh, the court was in New York.
[56:43.630 --> 56:44.190]  [SPEAKER_13]: Southern District.
[56:44.410 --> 56:45.130]  [SPEAKER_14]: Southern District.
[56:45.290 --> 56:45.470]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay.
[56:46.070 --> 56:54.670]  [SPEAKER_14]: And the rest of that address, F-P-C, it's Schoolkill, S-C-H-U-I-L-K-I-L-L, Unit 1, P-O-Box 670, Minorsville, Pennsylvania, 1-7-9-5-4.
[56:54.830 --> 56:56.950]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's an address we should all be memorizing by now.
[56:57.070 --> 56:57.490]  [SPEAKER_07]: Hope so.
[56:57.770 --> 56:58.870]  [SPEAKER_14]: You've been announced so many times.
[56:59.330 --> 57:00.450]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, Sal, best of luck.
[57:00.590 --> 57:04.670]  [SPEAKER_14]: I mean, have your impressions of prison been pretty much the same as Mark's?
[57:05.390 --> 57:09.690]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, I don't know what his were, but mine were totally different than I anticipated.
[57:09.970 --> 57:16.530]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, you were anticipating I thought it was really more of a... believe it or not, as naive as it sounds, more of a country club atmosphere.
[57:17.430 --> 57:19.010]  [SPEAKER_13]: You know, tennis courts and the whole deal.
[57:19.090 --> 57:19.630]  [SPEAKER_13]: Oh, man.
[57:20.650 --> 57:25.850]  [SPEAKER_13]: And I had no idea the mental games that are played, the head games.
[57:27.390 --> 57:28.710]  [SPEAKER_13]: The regimentation, I'm sure.
[57:28.890 --> 57:29.890]  [SPEAKER_13]: That's the part they're really sure.
[57:29.910 --> 57:36.410]  [SPEAKER_13]: I thought even at the federal correction offices would be a little bit professional.
[57:37.330 --> 57:39.030]  [SPEAKER_14]: Can you give us an example of the mental games?
[57:39.030 --> 57:42.570]  [SPEAKER_13]: Oh, for example, I'll give you one that's recent.
[57:43.070 --> 57:52.150]  [SPEAKER_13]: I went to speak to the camp administrator yesterday about a possible halfway house, complaining about the lack of paperwork that's been generated in that regard.
[57:52.810 --> 57:55.430]  [SPEAKER_13]: The same day, there was an inspection, and I got...
[57:55.430 --> 57:58.470]  [SPEAKER_13]: The inspections run from levels one to four, four being the best.
[57:59.290 --> 58:02.090]  [SPEAKER_13]: Two being like, you know, it's like A, B, C, D, you know.
[58:02.910 --> 58:04.610]  [SPEAKER_13]: Two being like one of the worst you can get.
[58:05.070 --> 58:08.930]  [SPEAKER_13]: Now, in the seven months I've been here, I never got less than a three or a four.
[58:09.330 --> 58:10.190]  [SPEAKER_13]: I get it, too.
[58:11.310 --> 58:13.090]  [SPEAKER_13]: Same day, on my inspection.
[58:13.530 --> 58:16.070]  [SPEAKER_13]: Nothing wrong with my living cube or anything like that.
[58:16.430 --> 58:16.690]  [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[58:17.050 --> 58:18.190]  [SPEAKER_13]: You're just making trouble.
[58:18.350 --> 58:19.630]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, they gave me a message.
[58:19.770 --> 58:20.910]  [SPEAKER_13]: The message is don't make trouble.
[58:21.390 --> 58:21.590]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah.
[58:22.010 --> 58:22.850]  [SPEAKER_13]: Don't open your mouth.
[58:23.050 --> 58:24.570]  [SPEAKER_13]: Don't open your big New York City mouth.
[58:24.750 --> 58:24.950]  [SPEAKER_14]: Wow.
[58:25.130 --> 58:27.390]  [SPEAKER_14]: Are certain people targeted more than others?
[58:27.790 --> 58:28.510]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, Mark is.
[58:28.750 --> 58:29.770]  [SPEAKER_14]: Mark is targeted more.
[58:29.950 --> 58:30.770]  [SPEAKER_13]: Oh, I think he is.
[58:30.850 --> 58:32.210]  [SPEAKER_13]: He may not take it, but I see it.
[58:32.270 --> 58:34.410]  [SPEAKER_13]: I think I'm more objective than he is.
[58:34.750 --> 58:36.390]  [SPEAKER_14]: And in what way?
[58:36.450 --> 58:36.990]  [SPEAKER_14]: For what reason?
[58:36.990 --> 58:39.490]  [SPEAKER_13]: Because I think they consider him a threat somehow.
[58:41.730 --> 58:43.230]  [SPEAKER_13]: Is that because he's political?
[58:43.570 --> 58:44.150]  [SPEAKER_13]: You know, a threat because...
[58:44.150 --> 58:46.790]  [SPEAKER_13]: Number one, because of his alleged crime.
[58:47.510 --> 58:49.250]  [SPEAKER_13]: You know, it's something that they don't understand.
[58:50.070 --> 58:52.070]  [SPEAKER_13]: And secondly, I think...
[58:54.030 --> 58:57.290]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, he doesn't play the game, you know, but why is he targeted?
[58:57.510 --> 59:01.170]  [SPEAKER_13]: Because his crime is something that they consider a form of terrorism.
[59:02.610 --> 59:02.970]  [SPEAKER_07]: Wow.
[59:03.130 --> 59:03.270]  [SPEAKER_07]: Amazing.
[59:03.270 --> 59:03.950]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's so blatant.
[59:04.110 --> 59:06.490]  [SPEAKER_13]: I see it as being blatant, the way he gets harassed.
[59:06.630 --> 59:10.650]  [SPEAKER_13]: He may not say it, but I'm, you know, being too modest, but I see him getting harassed all the time.
[59:10.950 --> 59:11.750]  [SPEAKER_14]: That's incredible.
[59:11.750 --> 59:16.150]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, it's not like, you know, nobody's beating you with rubber hoses.
[59:16.430 --> 59:17.690]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's little subtle things.
[59:19.130 --> 59:26.250]  [SPEAKER_13]: If five people are smoking within 50 feet of the unit, and one of them is marked, you know that those people are going to get extra duty.
[59:26.950 --> 59:27.470]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh-huh.
[59:27.770 --> 59:28.910]  [SPEAKER_13]: This is not a made-up example.
[59:29.090 --> 59:29.750]  [SPEAKER_13]: This is a real example.
[59:30.090 --> 59:30.370]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh-huh.
[59:30.370 --> 59:36.170]  [SPEAKER_13]: Now, if five other people are smoking up there, and one of them is not marked, then they've got to walk right by you while you're smoking.
[59:36.850 --> 59:39.570]  [SPEAKER_14]: Now, Mark, I guess, is able to handle this pretty well.
[59:39.650 --> 59:44.490]  [SPEAKER_14]: He seems to be his old self, but I imagine there's lots of people there that probably would crack under that kind of pressure.
[59:44.610 --> 59:45.670]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's just mental stuff.
[59:45.810 --> 59:47.830]  [SPEAKER_13]: If you have any...
[59:48.610 --> 59:54.870]  [SPEAKER_13]: Without sounding snobbish, as long as you're smarter than the people here, and you know it's a head trip, you don't really lose anything.
[59:55.790 --> 59:58.710]  [SPEAKER_13]: You can't be manipulated if you know somebody's trying to manipulate you.
[59:59.390 --> 01:00:00.750]  [SPEAKER_13]: But that's the way you look at it.
[01:00:01.350 --> 01:00:01.710]  [SPEAKER_14]: Wow.
[01:00:02.670 --> 01:00:04.350]  [SPEAKER_13]: In a way, sometimes you laugh at it.
[01:00:05.070 --> 01:00:07.230]  [SPEAKER_13]: When it's happening to you, at the time, you get upset.
[01:00:07.430 --> 01:00:11.230]  [SPEAKER_13]: But then, after a while, you realize, you know, what the quality of people...
[01:00:11.230 --> 01:00:12.990]  [SPEAKER_13]: You know, it's so blunt.
[01:00:13.130 --> 01:00:16.810]  [SPEAKER_13]: They're so obvious in their actions that it's almost comical.
[01:00:17.970 --> 01:00:19.030]  [SPEAKER_14]: So, when are you doing that?
[01:00:19.530 --> 01:00:20.810]  [SPEAKER_13]: Almost the same time as Mark.
[01:00:21.390 --> 01:00:29.850]  [SPEAKER_13]: My release date is in January, and I've been fighting for the last two months to get halfway house, because I have a... my wife is quite ill.
[01:00:30.470 --> 01:00:32.610]  [SPEAKER_13]: But that, you know, that doesn't seem to mean anything.
[01:00:33.270 --> 01:00:35.550]  [SPEAKER_13]: I could get out any day if they gave me halfway house.
[01:00:35.770 --> 01:00:38.810]  [SPEAKER_13]: For example, if they let me out today, I would have three and a half months halfway house.
[01:00:39.370 --> 01:00:40.630]  [SPEAKER_13]: But Judge Walkler isn't.
[01:00:41.670 --> 01:00:45.750]  [SPEAKER_13]: But I haven't been able to get the papers processed.
[01:00:47.090 --> 01:00:48.470]  [SPEAKER_13]: Halfway house is ready to accept me.
[01:00:48.570 --> 01:00:49.410]  [SPEAKER_13]: Everything else is ready.
[01:00:49.410 --> 01:00:51.110]  [SPEAKER_13]: But the people here cannot do the work.
[01:00:52.410 --> 01:00:56.430]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you just get caught up in the machinery of the justice system.
[01:00:56.630 --> 01:00:59.890]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's a question that they're lazy, and they don't have the ability to do any work.
[01:01:00.370 --> 01:01:01.990]  [SPEAKER_13]: They really have poor work habits.
[01:01:02.630 --> 01:01:05.770]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, that's because you guys are doing all their work for them, keeping the place clean.
[01:01:05.950 --> 01:01:06.670]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, that's part of it.
[01:01:06.750 --> 01:01:08.110]  [SPEAKER_13]: But it's just...
[01:01:08.110 --> 01:01:09.130]  [SPEAKER_13]: They can't be fired.
[01:01:09.410 --> 01:01:13.630]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's work habits that if they were in the private sector, they'd last about two minutes on the job.
[01:01:14.070 --> 01:01:15.850]  [SPEAKER_13]: You know, they can't complete a full thing.
[01:01:15.850 --> 01:01:16.810]  [SPEAKER_13]: They can't do a...
[01:01:16.810 --> 01:01:17.710]  [SPEAKER_13]: All right, let me start on this.
[01:01:18.290 --> 01:01:20.850]  [SPEAKER_13]: On inmate A's application, and I'll finish it.
[01:01:21.370 --> 01:01:21.970]  [SPEAKER_13]: Now, they'll do...
[01:01:21.970 --> 01:01:26.930]  [SPEAKER_13]: They'll put the name on 200 applications, for example.
[01:01:27.110 --> 01:01:27.810]  [SPEAKER_13]: Or 170.
[01:01:27.810 --> 01:01:28.630]  [SPEAKER_13]: How many do they have?
[01:01:32.520 --> 01:01:33.700]  [SPEAKER_13]: So, on the next 170.
[01:01:34.620 --> 01:01:36.900]  [SPEAKER_13]: So, at that rate, they should be finished in 1995.
[01:01:39.440 --> 01:01:41.200]  [SPEAKER_14]: Which is about when they'll be released anyway.
[01:01:41.600 --> 01:01:42.680]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, exactly right.
[01:01:42.860 --> 01:01:44.240]  [SPEAKER_13]: See, Mark is going to the end.
[01:01:44.320 --> 01:01:45.480]  [SPEAKER_13]: He's not going to go to halfway house.
[01:01:45.480 --> 01:01:50.920]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, because they offered him a halfway house that he didn't want to go to, that he thought was in a very dangerous neighborhood.
[01:01:51.220 --> 01:01:51.940]  [SPEAKER_13]: In Bed-Stuy.
[01:01:52.140 --> 01:01:56.500]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, and there was one that would be perfect for him, but they wouldn't give him that one, of course.
[01:01:56.680 --> 01:01:57.780]  [SPEAKER_13]: They would never do the paperwork.
[01:01:58.020 --> 01:01:59.720]  [SPEAKER_13]: That requires another piece of paper.
[01:02:00.000 --> 01:02:00.340]  [SPEAKER_14]: Uh-huh.
[01:02:00.640 --> 01:02:02.040]  [SPEAKER_13]: That requires additional work.
[01:02:02.320 --> 01:02:02.760]  [SPEAKER_14]: Uh-huh.
[01:02:03.580 --> 01:02:08.940]  [SPEAKER_13]: It's really hard for somebody on the outside to understand the mindset over here.
[01:02:09.500 --> 01:02:12.020]  [SPEAKER_13]: They would not do that if extra work.
[01:02:12.160 --> 01:02:13.580]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, we had a similar situation.
[01:02:13.580 --> 01:02:18.160]  [SPEAKER_14]: We were trying to visit somebody at Allenwood, in a minimal security prison there.
[01:02:19.080 --> 01:02:22.080]  [SPEAKER_14]: And they delayed sending the form for a month.
[01:02:22.220 --> 01:02:23.620]  [SPEAKER_14]: Then we sent the form back.
[01:02:23.760 --> 01:02:27.260]  [SPEAKER_14]: Then a month later, they sent it back to us, saying, you didn't fill in this line properly.
[01:02:27.480 --> 01:02:33.920]  [SPEAKER_14]: And by the time we got to the point where, you know, we would send it back in, he was about ready to come out anyway.
[01:02:33.960 --> 01:02:36.960]  [SPEAKER_14]: So, this person didn't get a single visitor because of this crap.
[01:02:36.960 --> 01:02:45.280]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah, it's a question of, part of it is, there's a message, part of it is intentional, and part of it is, they just don't have the ability to do it.
[01:02:45.720 --> 01:02:47.100]  [SPEAKER_14]: So, we wish you the best of luck.
[01:02:47.340 --> 01:02:48.080]  [SPEAKER_14]: Is Mark there?
[01:02:48.240 --> 01:02:48.940]  [SPEAKER_13]: Hold on one second.
[01:02:49.100 --> 01:02:49.260]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay.
[01:02:50.780 --> 01:02:51.080]  [SPEAKER_13]: Hello.
[01:02:51.540 --> 01:02:54.180]  [SPEAKER_14]: Hey, that was quite a story from your fellow prisoner there.
[01:02:55.100 --> 01:02:56.920]  [SPEAKER_14]: Now, are you going to be able to call us back again?
[01:02:57.100 --> 01:02:58.180]  [SPEAKER_15]: Oh, you want for two hours?
[01:02:58.660 --> 01:02:59.800]  [SPEAKER_14]: We're on until midnight, yes.
[01:02:59.920 --> 01:03:00.380]  [SPEAKER_15]: Oh, great.
[01:03:00.600 --> 01:03:01.580]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, I can call back.
[01:03:01.580 --> 01:03:02.700]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay, that's great.
[01:03:02.880 --> 01:03:04.440]  [SPEAKER_14]: Is there anybody else there you have to talk to us?
[01:03:04.840 --> 01:03:06.940]  [SPEAKER_15]: I can go round up some people.
[01:03:07.260 --> 01:03:07.520]  Okay.
[01:03:07.900 --> 01:03:10.400]  [SPEAKER_14]: No, I mean, every person seems to have quite a story behind them.
[01:03:10.440 --> 01:03:10.760]  [SPEAKER_15]: Part of you.
[01:03:11.680 --> 01:03:12.860]  [SPEAKER_14]: But that's something.
[01:03:13.040 --> 01:03:13.580]  [SPEAKER_14]: That's something.
[01:03:13.780 --> 01:03:15.540]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's a shocking story.
[01:03:15.920 --> 01:03:17.560]  [SPEAKER_14]: All right, we're going to be cut off any second now.
[01:03:17.740 --> 01:03:17.920]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah.
[01:03:18.420 --> 01:03:19.380]  [SPEAKER_14]: So, you want to wait for that?
[01:03:19.920 --> 01:03:21.500]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, we might as well, and then I'll call back.
[01:03:21.660 --> 01:03:21.900]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay.
[01:03:23.200 --> 01:03:36.040]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, hey, I want to mention here, I guess, that, you know, a lot of people really don't realize what's coming for them when they get caught in the machinery of the criminal justice system.
[01:03:36.340 --> 01:03:38.300]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, they operate by their own rules.
[01:03:39.340 --> 01:03:41.700]  [SPEAKER_14]: Mark is gone, but he will call back hopefully soon.
[01:03:42.680 --> 01:03:44.180]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's Kafka-ish, yes.
[01:03:45.900 --> 01:03:47.380]  [SPEAKER_02]: Loompanics actually does...
[01:03:47.380 --> 01:04:03.860]  [SPEAKER_02]: One thing I'm proud of is we do provide a number of manuals, like the Outlaw's Bible, which really tell you all the stuff that's about to happen to you, and little points along the way that you'd be surprised at where you can make things go easier.
[01:04:04.180 --> 01:04:19.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: If you're in trouble with the law, I really suggest that you not wait until your day in court to find out that they don't care about you, they don't care about your family, they don't even care about your crime.
[01:04:19.620 --> 01:04:24.460]  [SPEAKER_02]: You just are now an administrative number, and you're caught in this machinery.
[01:04:25.340 --> 01:04:35.580]  [SPEAKER_02]: And if you don't know what's coming, you're going to end up getting twice as long a sentence and twice as worse conditions as you could if you were prepared.
[01:04:36.280 --> 01:04:37.200]  [SPEAKER_14]: Mark is back.
[01:04:37.340 --> 01:04:37.920]  [SPEAKER_14]: Welcome back, Mark.
[01:04:38.100 --> 01:04:39.680]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, luckily I was able to get back.
[01:04:39.780 --> 01:04:41.040]  [SPEAKER_14]: This is a very good night for us.
[01:04:41.440 --> 01:04:42.980]  [SPEAKER_14]: No huge lines in the phones.
[01:04:43.740 --> 01:04:43.960]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah.
[01:04:44.380 --> 01:04:46.000]  [SPEAKER_14]: Sometimes you have to wait for hours.
[01:04:46.260 --> 01:04:47.540]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, that's definitely true.
[01:04:48.240 --> 01:04:49.640]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay, well, I'm glad it's working out.
[01:04:50.280 --> 01:04:52.220]  [SPEAKER_14]: Again, thanks to everybody who's calling in.
[01:04:52.220 --> 01:04:54.340]  [SPEAKER_14]: Our number is 212-279-3400.
[01:04:54.460 --> 01:04:55.720]  [SPEAKER_14]: Please show support for the radio station.
[01:04:55.860 --> 01:04:59.140]  [SPEAKER_14]: This has been an incredible series of conversations here.
[01:04:59.260 --> 01:05:04.320]  [SPEAKER_14]: I mean, where else can you tune in and hear people talking live from prison about prison conditions?
[01:05:05.020 --> 01:05:10.820]  [SPEAKER_14]: True, it's not a maximum security prison, but I'm kind of surprised by the way things are in a minimal security prison.
[01:05:11.040 --> 01:05:21.740]  [SPEAKER_14]: You wouldn't expect this kind of, as your fellow prisoner was saying, mind games to be played on people and just this overall sense that you're so completely powerless and at the mercy of them.
[01:05:22.760 --> 01:05:24.560]  [SPEAKER_14]: It scares me, and I'm on the outside.
[01:05:25.400 --> 01:05:29.860]  [SPEAKER_14]: I really have a lot of respect for people in there that are able to keep their sanity.
[01:05:30.260 --> 01:05:37.680]  [SPEAKER_14]: And if it does you any good, we're out here, and we care, and we'll do everything we can to make things more bearable.
[01:05:39.220 --> 01:05:41.600]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, Manuel, I have a couple more people here.
[01:05:41.840 --> 01:05:43.620]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay, let me just give out the phone number one more time.
[01:05:43.620 --> 01:05:45.280]  [SPEAKER_14]: 212-279-3400.
[01:05:45.420 --> 01:05:47.080]  [SPEAKER_14]: Please show your support for the radio station.
[01:05:47.260 --> 01:05:48.100]  [SPEAKER_14]: We're up to zero?
[01:05:48.340 --> 01:05:49.420]  [SPEAKER_14]: Why is there a zero up there?
[01:05:49.980 --> 01:05:51.200]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay, there's a zero on our screen.
[01:05:51.280 --> 01:05:58.760]  [SPEAKER_14]: I don't know why there's a zero there, but we were up to something like five or six hundred before, so hopefully we're climbing and all those phone calls were coming in before.
[01:05:59.620 --> 01:06:01.180]  [SPEAKER_14]: 212-279-3400.
[01:06:01.400 --> 01:06:02.300]  [SPEAKER_14]: We have the book.
[01:06:02.400 --> 01:06:03.380]  [SPEAKER_14]: Hopefully we have enough of them.
[01:06:03.580 --> 01:06:05.640]  [SPEAKER_14]: Call in and grab them before they all go away.
[01:06:06.000 --> 01:06:08.920]  [SPEAKER_14]: Secrets of a Super Hacker for a $75 pledge or more.
[01:06:09.420 --> 01:06:16.960]  [SPEAKER_14]: And everybody that calls in with a pledge of any size will get a copy of the Loompanic's catalog with, is it thousands of titles?
[01:06:17.240 --> 01:06:18.340]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, over a thousand.
[01:06:18.440 --> 01:06:29.500]  [SPEAKER_14]: Over a thousand titles of all kinds of neat things, including things that will help you stay out of prison, hopefully, and all kinds of interesting titles.
[01:06:29.680 --> 01:06:35.200]  [SPEAKER_14]: I mean, you could say that printing a book on how to successfully commit an armed robbery is a horrible thing.
[01:06:35.200 --> 01:06:38.520]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's very easy to say what possible good is this going to serve.
[01:06:38.900 --> 01:06:44.280]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, supposing you're writing a movie or a book or something and you want somebody in there to commit an armed robbery.
[01:06:44.540 --> 01:06:46.900]  [SPEAKER_14]: Wouldn't you like it to be somewhat realistic?
[01:06:47.340 --> 01:06:51.060]  [SPEAKER_02]: Supposing you're a bank manager and don't want to end up on the wrong end of it.
[01:06:51.300 --> 01:06:52.620]  [SPEAKER_14]: That's another very good point.
[01:06:52.820 --> 01:06:53.000]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[01:06:53.400 --> 01:06:54.960]  [SPEAKER_14]: The NBC people, they were...
[01:06:54.960 --> 01:06:59.880]  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, most guys that commit armed robberies don't go out and read a book on how to do it before they do it.
[01:07:00.000 --> 01:07:05.800]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, they're druggies or whatever, they need some money, they walk into a bank and stick a gun in somebody's face.
[01:07:05.800 --> 01:07:11.360]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's not like we're fueling the criminal element by publishing this.
[01:07:11.620 --> 01:07:20.300]  [SPEAKER_02]: If anything, we're letting more straight people know what people will do when they're in a situation like that.
[01:07:21.180 --> 01:07:23.140]  [SPEAKER_14]: 212-279-3400.
[01:07:23.300 --> 01:07:33.040]  [SPEAKER_14]: Your support here is a vote for this kind of radio program, this kind of conversation and dialogue that really will come to you in no other place.
[01:07:33.240 --> 01:07:43.560]  [SPEAKER_14]: And without this radio station, you're just going to hear more top 40 hits and, you know, all kinds of shop-at-home nonsense that we're going to be exposed to in the 90s.
[01:07:44.160 --> 01:07:45.400]  [SPEAKER_14]: So please give us a call.
[01:07:45.680 --> 01:07:54.580]  [SPEAKER_14]: You know, one of the things, Steve, that they said on NBC was how do you guys justify printing books on how to make explosives?
[01:07:54.800 --> 01:07:59.220]  [SPEAKER_14]: And you guys had a really snappy comeback that never made it to the air.
[01:07:59.280 --> 01:08:00.080]  [SPEAKER_14]: What was that comeback?
[01:08:00.380 --> 01:08:08.880]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, well, I told the producer that one thing the book could be used for was to rig trucks to explode on network news programs.
[01:08:09.880 --> 01:08:23.180]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, of course, Dateline NBC is the program that did rig up a truck to explode in a fraudulent segment on how unsafe certain vehicles were in a collision.
[01:08:23.420 --> 01:08:25.180]  [SPEAKER_14]: A sore point for NBC, certainly.
[01:08:25.700 --> 01:08:25.840]  [SPEAKER_02]: Huh?
[01:08:26.020 --> 01:08:28.440]  [SPEAKER_14]: That was a sore point for NBC because they rigged the story.
[01:08:28.440 --> 01:08:31.080]  [SPEAKER_02]: I could tell the jaws dropped immediately when I mentioned that.
[01:08:31.260 --> 01:08:33.840]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, of course, heads rolled at NBC over that.
[01:08:34.700 --> 01:08:38.480]  [SPEAKER_02]: The head of their news department was fired because of that incident.
[01:08:38.760 --> 01:08:42.060]  [SPEAKER_02]: So they seem to lack a sense of humor about that.
[01:08:42.240 --> 01:08:53.000]  [SPEAKER_02]: Here they are chastising us for publishing a book on how to make explosives while at the same time they're using explosives to rig phony crash tests on their program.
[01:08:53.440 --> 01:08:55.580]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, I'm glad you got to say it here anyway.
[01:08:56.640 --> 01:08:59.520]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, this is one of those uncensored environments.
[01:08:59.760 --> 01:09:02.000]  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I haven't been bleeped out once tonight.
[01:09:02.940 --> 01:09:03.960]  [SPEAKER_14]: That you know of.
[01:09:04.000 --> 01:09:06.000]  [SPEAKER_14]: You wouldn't know if you got bleeped, but no, you didn't.
[01:09:06.120 --> 01:09:08.340]  [SPEAKER_02]: And it's live and it's real.
[01:09:08.560 --> 01:09:20.280]  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, on all these blow-dried network news programs that you see, everything has been just edited down from massive files of tapes to make the story look whatever way they want at the time.
[01:09:21.360 --> 01:09:26.100]  [SPEAKER_14]: I should point out too that we were talking about people filming and everything like that.
[01:09:26.180 --> 01:09:27.960]  [SPEAKER_14]: We had a film crew in here while you were saying that.
[01:09:28.580 --> 01:09:34.660]  [SPEAKER_14]: I thought that was very ironic there, but we had someone from TBS here a little while ago filming the radio show.
[01:09:34.980 --> 01:09:35.980]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, that's great.
[01:09:36.080 --> 01:09:38.600]  [SPEAKER_14]: So you were on film yet again, even though you didn't know it.
[01:09:38.980 --> 01:09:40.300]  [SPEAKER_07]: I'm on film virtually.
[01:09:40.820 --> 01:09:42.100]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, it's pretty incredible.
[01:09:43.020 --> 01:09:47.100]  [SPEAKER_14]: 212-279-3400, all but one line is lit, so one more call we'll get another bingo.
[01:09:47.260 --> 01:09:56.940]  [SPEAKER_14]: And my theory as to why it's a big zero on the screen is because things are in such turmoil down in the tally room that, well, people don't have time to change the actual...
[01:09:57.560 --> 01:09:59.340]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, it sounds like turmoil down there.
[01:09:59.540 --> 01:10:06.420]  [SPEAKER_14]: A lot of people talking and running into each other, so hopefully they'll change the numbers so we can find out how many people have called in.
[01:10:06.500 --> 01:10:07.180]  [SPEAKER_14]: Mark, are you still there?
[01:10:07.980 --> 01:10:09.860]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think you just lost the prison line.
[01:10:09.980 --> 01:10:10.380]  [SPEAKER_14]: Oh, dear.
[01:10:11.100 --> 01:10:12.280]  [SPEAKER_14]: I wonder why we lost it.
[01:10:13.940 --> 01:10:15.240]  [SPEAKER_14]: We shouldn't have lost that line.
[01:10:15.420 --> 01:10:19.740]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, maybe it's another mind game that they're we shouldn't have lost that line.
[01:10:20.760 --> 01:10:22.540]  [SPEAKER_14]: Boy, I hope it gets back soon.
[01:10:23.460 --> 01:10:24.760]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay, this might be him.
[01:10:24.980 --> 01:10:25.600]  [SPEAKER_14]: Mark, is this you?
[01:10:25.880 --> 01:10:27.900]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, there's all the static and stuff.
[01:10:28.040 --> 01:10:29.040]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, there was a lot of static.
[01:10:29.060 --> 01:10:29.660]  [SPEAKER_14]: I don't know why.
[01:10:29.780 --> 01:10:30.980]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's coming on your line now.
[01:10:31.240 --> 01:10:32.740]  [SPEAKER_15]: Oh, maybe we're being jammed.
[01:10:32.920 --> 01:10:33.280]  [SPEAKER_14]: Maybe.
[01:10:33.880 --> 01:10:35.180]  [SPEAKER_14]: But you seem okay now.
[01:10:35.400 --> 01:10:37.420]  [SPEAKER_14]: So, okay, what do you got for us?
[01:10:37.560 --> 01:10:38.920]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay, hold on one second.
[01:10:39.020 --> 01:10:39.220]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay.
[01:10:43.510 --> 01:10:45.470]  [SPEAKER_14]: I think he's convincing people to be on the radio.
[01:10:45.810 --> 01:10:46.290]  [SPEAKER_14]: Two-one...
[01:10:46.290 --> 01:10:54.290]  [SPEAKER_02]: live reports from American prisons because people really, you know, one of the problems prisoners have is that it's out of sight, out of mind.
[01:10:54.570 --> 01:10:54.950]  [SPEAKER_14]: Right.
[01:10:55.310 --> 01:10:56.250]  [SPEAKER_14]: Sweep them under the carpet.
[01:10:56.530 --> 01:10:58.350]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, we're not about to do that here.
[01:10:58.530 --> 01:11:09.850]  [SPEAKER_14]: A lot of the people, I've come to meet some of these people there when I visit, and you know, it's so sad to see them in this state, you know, where their families come and visit them, and I mean, these are not violent criminals.
[01:11:09.850 --> 01:11:13.890]  [SPEAKER_14]: These are not people that really should be locked away like this.
[01:11:14.750 --> 01:11:16.530]  [SPEAKER_02]: I think you got one on the line there.
[01:11:16.670 --> 01:11:17.170]  [SPEAKER_14]: There's someone here.
[01:11:17.490 --> 01:11:18.690]  [SPEAKER_15]: Oh, it's me again.
[01:11:18.830 --> 01:11:20.790]  [SPEAKER_15]: Apparently, they're a little radio shy.
[01:11:21.030 --> 01:11:22.430]  [SPEAKER_14]: I can understand that.
[01:11:22.490 --> 01:11:25.650]  [SPEAKER_14]: I mean, you know, they might frown on things like that at the prison even.
[01:11:25.950 --> 01:11:26.130]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[01:11:26.230 --> 01:11:31.130]  [SPEAKER_14]: So you got to be kind of careful, but I can understand why people would be kind of shy.
[01:11:31.710 --> 01:11:35.550]  [SPEAKER_02]: Have you ever had reprisals because of stuff you said on the radio, Mark?
[01:11:36.190 --> 01:11:38.210]  [SPEAKER_15]: Oh, I don't think anyone's really aware of it yet.
[01:11:38.650 --> 01:11:38.950]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh-huh.
[01:11:40.290 --> 01:11:41.870]  [SPEAKER_15]: And probably it's best that they are.
[01:11:41.930 --> 01:11:42.130]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah.
[01:11:42.430 --> 01:11:44.430]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, we've only done this twice before already.
[01:11:45.330 --> 01:11:45.650]  [SPEAKER_14]: Uh-huh.
[01:11:46.550 --> 01:11:49.610]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, hopefully, we'll be able to do this until you get out in November.
[01:11:51.150 --> 01:11:52.610]  [SPEAKER_14]: Tell us, Mark, what do you miss the most?
[01:11:52.710 --> 01:11:54.270]  [SPEAKER_14]: I've asked this before, I know, but still.
[01:11:55.390 --> 01:11:56.730]  [SPEAKER_14]: It might change from week to week.
[01:11:57.890 --> 01:11:59.710]  [SPEAKER_14]: Any particular things that you want to do when you get out?
[01:12:00.910 --> 01:12:01.670]  [SPEAKER_15]: That I want to do?
[01:12:01.810 --> 01:12:04.010]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, I mean, little things that you miss.
[01:12:04.010 --> 01:12:06.410]  [SPEAKER_15]: Oh, well, I miss everything.
[01:12:07.030 --> 01:12:09.270]  [SPEAKER_15]: I mean, I miss being a free man.
[01:12:09.770 --> 01:12:11.550]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, but what is being a free man?
[01:12:11.650 --> 01:12:18.290]  [SPEAKER_14]: I mean, I'm trying to put this in context to our listeners that are hopefully all free people, things that they may take for granted.
[01:12:19.530 --> 01:12:22.490]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, I miss my family, I miss my friends.
[01:12:23.390 --> 01:12:23.850]  [SPEAKER_14]: Uh-huh.
[01:12:23.850 --> 01:12:25.650]  [SPEAKER_14]: Just being able to see people on a daily basis.
[01:12:25.790 --> 01:12:27.290]  [SPEAKER_15]: I mean, seeing people that I know.
[01:12:27.450 --> 01:12:38.370]  [SPEAKER_15]: I miss the familiarity of my own neighborhood, of where I work, of my own bed, of decent real food to eat, and toothing your food, I imagine.
[01:12:39.530 --> 01:12:40.230]  [SPEAKER_14]: What's this?
[01:12:40.410 --> 01:12:42.710]  [SPEAKER_15]: Just being able to tooth what food you're going to eat.
[01:12:42.710 --> 01:12:45.130]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, being able to make choices for yourself.
[01:12:45.510 --> 01:12:48.030]  [SPEAKER_15]: You're treated like a child here.
[01:12:48.430 --> 01:12:50.590]  [SPEAKER_15]: You have to be herded like animals.
[01:12:50.890 --> 01:12:51.330]  [SPEAKER_14]: Uh-huh.
[01:12:51.450 --> 01:12:53.130]  [SPEAKER_15]: And constantly told what to do.
[01:12:54.450 --> 01:13:05.230]  [SPEAKER_14]: One thing that a caller asked last week that got on after you had already left was How will this change you as far as your hacker mentality?
[01:13:05.850 --> 01:13:08.530]  [SPEAKER_14]: Are you going to act differently when you get out of prison?
[01:13:09.430 --> 01:13:17.150]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, I think that in some ways it's put me into a position where I feel compelled to talk out as more of an activist.
[01:13:17.970 --> 01:13:22.790]  [SPEAKER_15]: I mean, of course I was doing that before, but I feel even more compelled to do so now.
[01:13:23.910 --> 01:13:27.710]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, that's I'm sure exactly what they had in mind when they sent you to prison, isn't it?
[01:13:28.050 --> 01:13:28.650]  [SPEAKER_15]: What's that?
[01:13:28.810 --> 01:13:29.850]  [SPEAKER_14]: To make you into an activist.
[01:13:30.430 --> 01:13:36.110]  [SPEAKER_14]: I mean, these prison sentences really don't seem to be having the effect that the government wants them to have.
[01:13:36.310 --> 01:13:37.310]  [SPEAKER_02]: No, not at all.
[01:13:37.450 --> 01:13:41.550]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's probably also why they think you have kind of a bad attitude there or something.
[01:13:42.130 --> 01:13:52.310]  [SPEAKER_02]: It sounds like you get singled out for special mistreatment and maybe that's because you're becoming an activist over this.
[01:13:52.650 --> 01:13:53.570]  [SPEAKER_02]: Is that possible?
[01:13:54.070 --> 01:13:56.270]  [SPEAKER_15]: Oh, you mean here or you mean in general?
[01:13:56.450 --> 01:13:57.210]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean there.
[01:13:57.210 --> 01:13:58.350]  [SPEAKER_15]: Oh yeah, of course.
[01:13:58.670 --> 01:14:08.230]  [SPEAKER_15]: The thing that's strange is that since I've gotten here, I mean, I can only guess what they do, but it's strange how many of the staff know my name just in passing.
[01:14:09.210 --> 01:14:18.730]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know, like say there might be some new prison officer, you know, a guard that I haven't seen before and he knows what my name is.
[01:14:18.950 --> 01:14:19.470]  [SPEAKER_15]: You know what I mean?
[01:14:19.570 --> 01:14:21.670]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's almost as if he's been briefed or something.
[01:14:23.590 --> 01:14:41.730]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm real curious if you have any piece of advice for, say, somebody who might be hacking or might be, you know, doing something that's legally questionable and all of a sudden the man's on the doorstep, you know, somebody showed up and their number is up.
[01:14:42.010 --> 01:14:45.870]  [SPEAKER_02]: Is there something along the line that people can do to make things go better?
[01:14:46.090 --> 01:15:00.590]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah, well, one of the most important things to do before you even have to start thinking about going to prison is the mistake that a lot of people make in a frenzy, in the panic of those first few moments, is to start telling them everything you know because you think you're going to feel better and be better off,
[01:15:00.610 --> 01:15:01.330]  [SPEAKER_15]: according to them.
[01:15:02.270 --> 01:15:03.870]  [SPEAKER_15]: Absolutely not the case.
[01:15:04.150 --> 01:15:06.190]  [SPEAKER_15]: Don't ever tell them anything.
[01:15:06.910 --> 01:15:07.430]  [SPEAKER_15]: Nothing.
[01:15:09.270 --> 01:15:12.470]  [SPEAKER_15]: The less that you tell them, the better off you'll be.
[01:15:13.190 --> 01:15:19.590]  [SPEAKER_14]: So what you're saying is that if federal agents say trust us, you should not trust them.
[01:15:19.590 --> 01:15:24.050]  [SPEAKER_15]: trust us, or what they said to me was, we already know everything, so tell us what you did.
[01:15:25.150 --> 01:15:29.290]  [SPEAKER_14]: And when you think about that for only half a second, you realize if they know everything or they want to know that.
[01:15:29.550 --> 01:15:29.910]  [SPEAKER_15]: Exactly.
[01:15:30.190 --> 01:15:31.610]  [SPEAKER_15]: But those are their exact words.
[01:15:33.010 --> 01:15:33.370]  [SPEAKER_14]: Unbelievable.
[01:15:33.910 --> 01:15:34.250]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's true.
[01:15:34.390 --> 01:15:46.270]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's hard, you know, it sounds silly now, but when you're in that position and the agent's standing there in front of you, you're scared to shit, you know, and the tendency is to just try to talk your way out or something.
[01:15:46.750 --> 01:15:51.050]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I think what people do is they tend to talk themselves into a great big hole.
[01:15:51.750 --> 01:15:54.850]  [SPEAKER_15]: The best thing to do is clam up as tightly as possible.
[01:15:56.270 --> 01:15:58.170]  [SPEAKER_14]: And seek legal counsel, obviously.
[01:15:58.350 --> 01:15:59.110]  [SPEAKER_15]: Obviously, yeah.
[01:15:59.330 --> 01:16:06.650]  [SPEAKER_15]: You don't want to give them the impression that you're not cooperating, but you're simply going to have some difficulty answering their questions without legal counsel present.
[01:16:07.870 --> 01:16:20.490]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's funny, you know, we have this show here called NYPD Blue, and almost every single week they have this scene where they say, okay, you can ask for a lawyer, but if you ask for a lawyer, then this deal that I'm offering you is going to be null and void,
[01:16:20.530 --> 01:16:26.790]  [SPEAKER_14]: and you're going to wind up going to prison, so why don't you talk to me now, and we can keep the lawyers out of it, and you know, you can be happy and free.
[01:16:26.870 --> 01:16:33.470]  [SPEAKER_14]: Of course, in this particular case, the cops are the good guys, so if they talk to the cops before the evil lawyers get involved, everybody walks away happy.
[01:16:33.890 --> 01:16:35.870]  [SPEAKER_14]: But it doesn't always work that way in real life, does it?
[01:16:35.970 --> 01:16:37.690]  [SPEAKER_15]: So, seldomly does it ever work that way.
[01:16:37.830 --> 01:16:43.370]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'm sure there's plenty of people here that are going to tell you that, that they were going to cooperate, and things would be easier.
[01:16:44.130 --> 01:16:44.290]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[01:16:45.170 --> 01:16:50.430]  [SPEAKER_02]: No, it's just a bad idea to cooperate with any official like that.
[01:16:50.550 --> 01:16:54.050]  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, to let them into your premises without a warrant.
[01:16:54.330 --> 01:16:54.630]  [SPEAKER_02]: Sure.
[01:16:54.950 --> 01:17:06.170]  [SPEAKER_02]: Once you invite them in, anything they see, or anything they think they see, or anything they plant on your premises is now going to be, you know, grounds for getting a warrant and arresting you.
[01:17:07.590 --> 01:17:11.510]  [SPEAKER_14]: Now, if you do not invite them in, that's not seen as not cooperating, is it?
[01:17:11.950 --> 01:17:14.490]  [SPEAKER_15]: No, if they don't have a warrant, they have no right to come in.
[01:17:14.690 --> 01:17:15.010]  [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[01:17:15.270 --> 01:17:20.050]  [SPEAKER_02]: And if you invite them in, you're just opening a can of worms for yourself.
[01:17:20.290 --> 01:17:20.730]  [SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.
[01:17:21.810 --> 01:17:36.570]  [SPEAKER_02]: And if you say anything to them, anything at all, I mean, just even like something you think is totally innocuous, you know, can I get a glass of water or something, anything can end up leading to problems.
[01:17:36.870 --> 01:17:37.310]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh-huh.
[01:17:38.210 --> 01:17:38.850]  [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.
[01:17:39.350 --> 01:17:41.230]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I thought I would just mention this.
[01:17:41.350 --> 01:17:53.450]  [SPEAKER_02]: There was just an incident in Michigan about a month ago where a game company was invaded by the Secret Service, very similar to the Steve Jackson games.
[01:17:53.590 --> 01:17:54.350]  [SPEAKER_14]: Another one?
[01:17:54.450 --> 01:17:55.290]  [SPEAKER_02]: Incident, yes.
[01:17:55.510 --> 01:18:02.610]  [SPEAKER_02]: And what it was is part of their role-playing game involved these fake FBI badges badges or something.
[01:18:02.830 --> 01:18:09.290]  [SPEAKER_02]: And somebody had seen them in a trade show and said that these people were counterfeiting Secret Service badges.
[01:18:09.990 --> 01:18:11.490]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so...
[01:18:11.490 --> 01:18:14.570]  [SPEAKER_02]: But it's a game and the badges are like neon green.
[01:18:14.770 --> 01:18:17.570]  [SPEAKER_02]: They're obviously not real Secret Service badges.
[01:18:17.990 --> 01:18:20.650]  [SPEAKER_02]: And the Secret Service raided their building.
[01:18:21.170 --> 01:18:29.750]  [SPEAKER_02]: And one of the interesting upshots was they didn't seize their computers because they said it's against the law to take a computer.
[01:18:30.030 --> 01:18:36.970]  [SPEAKER_02]: If somebody is writing a book on it, it's considered a work in progress and that's protected by the First Amendment.
[01:18:37.590 --> 01:18:40.590]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, that's one of the things to come out of the Steve Jackson games case.
[01:18:40.930 --> 01:18:41.290]  [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[01:18:41.530 --> 01:18:54.730]  [SPEAKER_02]: So now, at Loompanics, we've all been told, you know, if anybody ever shows up at the door to say that we got novels and books in progress on these computers and please don't take them.
[01:18:55.470 --> 01:18:55.890]  [SPEAKER_14]: Uh-huh.
[01:18:56.710 --> 01:19:11.570]  [SPEAKER_14]: That's something too, because I was involved in something similar to that back in the early 80s and one of the computers that was seized had all these things I was writing, you know, and there's nothing worse than the feeling that all this stuff from your heart is not only lost,
[01:19:11.710 --> 01:19:20.070]  [SPEAKER_14]: but in the minds, you know, in the possession of these people that will never be able to appreciate it and will do God knows what with it.
[01:19:20.370 --> 01:19:21.470]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's a real invasion.
[01:19:21.570 --> 01:19:24.310]  [SPEAKER_14]: You want to talk about invasion of privacy, that is an invasion.
[01:19:24.630 --> 01:19:26.090]  [SPEAKER_14]: It doesn't get any worse than that.
[01:19:26.170 --> 01:19:36.150]  [SPEAKER_14]: That's where they come and they just yank everything out of your life and reduce you to, you know, this shivering creature over in a corner that's got nothing left.
[01:19:36.530 --> 01:19:39.350]  [SPEAKER_14]: I mean, Mark, you've been put in that situation a couple of times, haven't you?
[01:19:39.450 --> 01:19:43.130]  [SPEAKER_15]: I mean, make no mistake, we have absolutely no privacy whatsoever here.
[01:19:45.550 --> 01:19:54.550]  [SPEAKER_15]: Our possessions are systematically searched through periodically by the staff, and they call them shakedowns.
[01:19:54.770 --> 01:19:56.430]  [SPEAKER_15]: They're looking for contraband.
[01:19:57.610 --> 01:19:58.890]  [SPEAKER_15]: And what's contraband?
[01:19:59.030 --> 01:20:02.450]  [SPEAKER_15]: Contraband is anything that they don't allow you to have, basically.
[01:20:02.830 --> 01:20:12.170]  [SPEAKER_15]: Whether it's something completely innocuous, like, say, for instance, a piece of plasticware to eat something with, or, you know, and so on.
[01:20:12.550 --> 01:20:16.270]  [SPEAKER_15]: Or a piece of food that you might have tried to bring back with you from the kitchen.
[01:20:16.610 --> 01:20:17.710]  [SPEAKER_14]: Oh, you can't do that, huh?
[01:20:17.850 --> 01:20:18.030]  [SPEAKER_15]: No.
[01:20:18.030 --> 01:20:20.030]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's all considered contraband.
[01:20:21.250 --> 01:20:21.650]  [SPEAKER_14]: Wow.
[01:20:22.050 --> 01:20:22.270]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah.
[01:20:22.510 --> 01:20:23.910]  [SPEAKER_14]: How do you keep track of all the rules?
[01:20:26.350 --> 01:20:27.950]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, you kind of get used to it.
[01:20:28.330 --> 01:20:35.830]  [SPEAKER_15]: I mean, you just figure, if you work with the mindset that you can't do anything, then you won't get caught up in anything.
[01:20:36.190 --> 01:20:37.550]  [SPEAKER_14]: I guess it's a healthy attitude.
[01:20:37.950 --> 01:20:38.250]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah.
[01:20:38.410 --> 01:20:40.690]  [SPEAKER_15]: I mean, that's what it is.
[01:20:40.910 --> 01:20:47.930]  [SPEAKER_15]: One of the other points that I wanted to bring up that the other people here were telling me that should be said is a state of overcrowdedness.
[01:20:48.230 --> 01:20:57.150]  [SPEAKER_15]: The fact that we have TV rooms that are supposed to be recreational rooms closed off, and they're filled with bunk beds because there are so many people here.
[01:20:58.390 --> 01:21:03.070]  [SPEAKER_15]: Initially, to my knowledge, this prison was built for roughly 150 people.
[01:21:03.670 --> 01:21:06.250]  [SPEAKER_15]: There is currently over 300 here.
[01:21:07.890 --> 01:21:10.550]  [SPEAKER_14]: And that's got to be illegal in some way.
[01:21:10.690 --> 01:21:11.370]  [SPEAKER_15]: I'm sure it is.
[01:21:11.450 --> 01:21:27.630]  [SPEAKER_15]: When you have 30 people expected to use a single toilet, or you have 60 people and say, two toilets and two or three showers, it starts to get ridiculous.
[01:21:28.070 --> 01:21:33.190]  [SPEAKER_02]: And just the violence that is likely to erupt when you have that many people in such a primary area.
[01:21:33.190 --> 01:21:33.210]  [SPEAKER_02]: Obviously.
[01:21:33.370 --> 01:21:35.890]  [SPEAKER_15]: There's arguments over the television.
[01:21:36.130 --> 01:21:39.630]  [SPEAKER_15]: There's arguments over who's first online to eat.
[01:21:39.810 --> 01:21:42.350]  [SPEAKER_15]: There's arguments over who's first online to use the telephone.
[01:21:42.550 --> 01:21:43.670]  [SPEAKER_15]: There's arguments over everything.
[01:21:43.670 --> 01:21:50.130]  [SPEAKER_15]: And sometimes they do erupt into fights because it just gets to you.
[01:21:50.350 --> 01:21:51.630]  [SPEAKER_15]: Things can really get under your skin.
[01:21:52.050 --> 01:21:54.410]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, people aren't meant to live under those conditions.
[01:21:54.750 --> 01:22:07.510]  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, the American prison system has conditions that are so abhorrent that if we saw them on TV, we would think this was some third world country or something.
[01:22:07.790 --> 01:22:08.150]  [SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.
[01:22:09.070 --> 01:22:12.890]  [SPEAKER_02]: some foreign out of Midnight Express or something.
[01:22:13.090 --> 01:22:15.990]  [SPEAKER_14]: You know, what scares me is that you're in a camp, Mark.
[01:22:16.170 --> 01:22:19.410]  [SPEAKER_14]: You're in the lowest possible security prison.
[01:22:19.610 --> 01:22:20.010]  [SPEAKER_15]: Exactly.
[01:22:20.130 --> 01:22:22.090]  [SPEAKER_14]: What's it like across the street in that other place?
[01:22:22.250 --> 01:22:22.430]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah.
[01:22:22.590 --> 01:22:30.530]  [SPEAKER_15]: The thing that makes me laugh is when I have an interview done and some moron ends up writing in the paper that, oh, it was such a nice place.
[01:22:30.670 --> 01:22:31.830]  [SPEAKER_15]: It was so clean.
[01:22:32.090 --> 01:22:34.130]  [SPEAKER_15]: There were even flowers in the front of the building.
[01:22:34.330 --> 01:22:36.210]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, I saw the flowers last time I was there.
[01:22:36.210 --> 01:22:44.790]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yes, if that's all it takes to fool people, to make them think that this is such a wonderful place, then they should put flowers in front of every prison, and everyone will be fooled.
[01:22:45.870 --> 01:22:47.650]  [SPEAKER_15]: They'll be trying to get into prison.
[01:22:47.790 --> 01:22:48.510]  [SPEAKER_15]: They'll think it's so great.
[01:22:48.730 --> 01:22:58.330]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I think one of the great tragedies of this is that most of the people that are in prison in the United States are not there because they harmed anyone in any way.
[01:22:58.650 --> 01:23:04.050]  [SPEAKER_02]: The only harm they did was to their own selves through drugs or through totally victimless crimes.
[01:23:04.370 --> 01:23:11.310]  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, a lot of people just assume that since you're going to trial or since you've been arrested, you must have done something wrong.
[01:23:11.650 --> 01:23:28.270]  [SPEAKER_02]: But there's these vast numbers of people out there that have done nothing wrong whatsoever except consenting involuntary behavior with other consenting adults, and yet they're locked up in the United States in what are increasingly dismal conditions, you know,
[01:23:28.330 --> 01:23:30.530]  [SPEAKER_02]: and just treated like subhuman beings.
[01:23:30.890 --> 01:23:31.910]  [SPEAKER_02]: And for what?
[01:23:32.070 --> 01:23:36.070]  [SPEAKER_02]: There's, you know, the idea of a crime against the state is wrong.
[01:23:36.610 --> 01:23:43.870]  [SPEAKER_02]: There's crimes against people, and those are the ones that law enforcement should be out there trying to protect us from.
[01:23:44.050 --> 01:23:58.630]  [SPEAKER_02]: Crimes of violence, crimes of fraud, but these crimes where people don't commit any crime, like, for example, gaining access into somebody's computer, you haven't done anything wrong to their computer, you haven't damaged any information.
[01:23:58.630 --> 01:24:04.830]  [SPEAKER_02]: If you don't go in and monkey with their files, you haven't harmed them in any way.
[01:24:04.950 --> 01:24:07.910]  [SPEAKER_02]: In fact, you may have pointed out a security breach to them.
[01:24:08.090 --> 01:24:12.530]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, Mark's biggest offense in their eyes was, as the judge said, he was a symbol.
[01:24:12.730 --> 01:24:20.730]  [SPEAKER_14]: He was somebody that spoke out, he was somebody that showed them what was wrong with the systems, and wouldn't back down and admit that he was an evil person.
[01:24:20.730 --> 01:24:21.530]  [SPEAKER_14]: He never did that.
[01:24:21.870 --> 01:24:24.010]  [SPEAKER_14]: And because of that, they had to deal with him.
[01:24:24.070 --> 01:24:25.250]  [SPEAKER_14]: They had to crack him.
[01:24:25.950 --> 01:24:29.410]  [SPEAKER_15]: and also the judge said that if he could, he would have given me more time.
[01:24:30.270 --> 01:24:31.270]  [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, amazing.
[01:24:31.570 --> 01:24:37.310]  [SPEAKER_02]: And did you, in your case, did they find you guilty of doing any damage to computers?
[01:24:37.530 --> 01:24:38.330]  [SPEAKER_15]: No, none whatsoever.
[01:24:38.910 --> 01:24:44.610]  [SPEAKER_15]: Of all the millions of dollars, and recently I just requested a copy of my pre-sentencing investigation report.
[01:24:45.110 --> 01:24:45.550]  [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[01:24:45.690 --> 01:24:53.070]  [SPEAKER_15]: Of all the millions of dollars in damages that were alleged by this company and that company, I was held responsible for absolutely none of it.
[01:24:53.650 --> 01:25:04.790]  [SPEAKER_15]: Because not once did any of the companies actually come forward with an itemized list, they had these vague notions of, well, it costs this much to hire these security people.
[01:25:04.950 --> 01:25:09.030]  [SPEAKER_15]: It costs this much to install new security countermeasures.
[01:25:09.850 --> 01:25:12.010]  [SPEAKER_02]: Right, but that's their responsibility.
[01:25:12.010 --> 01:25:22.870]  [SPEAKER_02]: In other words, you have done no damage that they have shown whatsoever to their system, and yet you are in prison just because basically insulting their security system.
[01:25:22.970 --> 01:25:23.090]  [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[01:25:24.510 --> 01:25:33.770]  [SPEAKER_02]: people put this stuff out on the airwaves, like people talk over cellular phones, which anybody can listen into, and then all of a sudden listening in is a crime.
[01:25:34.070 --> 01:25:35.230]  [SPEAKER_14]: We just lost him.
[01:25:36.410 --> 01:25:39.470]  [SPEAKER_14]: We didn't say if he was going to be able to call back.
[01:25:39.570 --> 01:25:40.290]  [SPEAKER_14]: Hopefully he will be.
[01:25:41.050 --> 01:25:43.210]  [SPEAKER_02]: It was getting very interesting discussion.
[01:25:43.430 --> 01:25:48.750]  [SPEAKER_14]: You know, it's really good to hear him speak out like that because, you know, that's the Mark we all know and love.
[01:25:49.790 --> 01:26:01.430]  [SPEAKER_02]: I actually think prison will make, you know, will make missionaries out of people that were simply just trying to get through their life before they got hooked up with this criminal justice machine.
[01:26:02.450 --> 01:26:05.710]  [SPEAKER_02]: And it's really happening all over the United States.
[01:26:05.870 --> 01:26:06.710]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay, we got him back.
[01:26:07.550 --> 01:26:08.250]  [SPEAKER_14]: Mark, you there?
[01:26:08.350 --> 01:26:08.710]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm here.
[01:26:08.910 --> 01:26:09.130]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay.
[01:26:09.430 --> 01:26:18.750]  [SPEAKER_14]: Let me just, again, I hate to do this, but it is very important because we wouldn't be here now if we didn't have this radio station and we need to get people to call in and show their support.
[01:26:19.290 --> 01:26:22.590]  [SPEAKER_14]: We've raised a total, I don't know how we did this, we raised a total of $932.
[01:26:22.990 --> 01:26:25.710]  [SPEAKER_14]: Apparently somebody pledged an uneven amount somehow.
[01:26:26.030 --> 01:26:28.770]  [SPEAKER_14]: That's okay, fine, no problem, someone pledged $2 or something.
[01:26:29.950 --> 01:26:31.110]  [SPEAKER_02]: They won that catalog.
[01:26:31.310 --> 01:26:35.890]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, every bit counts, so please give us a call, 212-279-3400.
[01:26:36.010 --> 01:26:37.190]  [SPEAKER_14]: Think of what you're hearing here tonight.
[01:26:37.350 --> 01:26:38.490]  [SPEAKER_14]: This is something unprecedented.
[01:26:40.230 --> 01:26:45.390]  [SPEAKER_14]: Hearing live talk from prison, not just from Mark, but from some of his fellow prisoners as well.
[01:26:47.170 --> 01:27:00.330]  [SPEAKER_14]: We really hadn't planned on delving into this particular aspect of the hacker world, namely prison conditions, but it's a very pertinent issue, something that we do need to focus on, something VAI does focus on at other times.
[01:27:01.190 --> 01:27:11.690]  [SPEAKER_14]: And you can show your support for this kind of freedom of speech, this kind of coverage by pledging to the radio station, making sure that we're still here.
[01:27:11.750 --> 01:27:12.810]  [SPEAKER_14]: Remember, we don't have commercials.
[01:27:12.990 --> 01:27:14.330]  [SPEAKER_14]: We don't have any commercials at all.
[01:27:14.770 --> 01:27:19.230]  [SPEAKER_14]: If we had commercials, we wouldn't be able to have programming like this, and that's just the simple way.
[01:27:19.330 --> 01:27:22.110]  [SPEAKER_14]: We prefer it this way, because who wants to hear an AT&T commercial?
[01:27:22.290 --> 01:27:25.690]  [SPEAKER_14]: You know, can you imagine, we have to break now in front of those stupid-you-will commercials?
[01:27:26.670 --> 01:27:29.950]  [SPEAKER_14]: You know, that would sort of defeat the whole purpose of what we're talking about here.
[01:27:31.210 --> 01:27:33.930]  [SPEAKER_14]: And if we were a commercial radio station, we would have to do that.
[01:27:34.250 --> 01:27:35.530]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's holy.
[01:27:35.730 --> 01:27:37.550]  [SPEAKER_14]: You know, it's something you do not joke about.
[01:27:37.770 --> 01:27:43.610]  [SPEAKER_14]: The commercial is what keeps the station going, and that's what allows you to pay people huge amounts of money and things like that.
[01:27:44.010 --> 01:27:52.610]  [SPEAKER_14]: And, of course, you all wind up paying for the commercials, too, because you wind up paying for the products and budgeted into the products are things for advertising.
[01:27:52.870 --> 01:27:54.350]  [SPEAKER_14]: So you wind up paying twice, really.
[01:27:54.410 --> 01:27:59.370]  [SPEAKER_14]: You have to sit through all the crap and listen to the commercials, and then you have to pay for the products, which cover the advertising.
[01:27:59.370 --> 01:28:11.450]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, can you imagine how much lower our phone bills would be if all that money spent by Sprint and AT&T and MCI on ads were just rebated to customers on their phone bills?
[01:28:11.550 --> 01:28:11.870]  [SPEAKER_14]: Oh, yeah.
[01:28:11.950 --> 01:28:14.250]  [SPEAKER_14]: I mean, I don't even know why NYNEX has to advertise.
[01:28:14.410 --> 01:28:14.890]  [SPEAKER_14]: They're a monopoly.
[01:28:15.050 --> 01:28:15.810]  [SPEAKER_14]: You don't have a choice.
[01:28:16.110 --> 01:28:18.370]  [SPEAKER_14]: You know, they say, boy, use your phone.
[01:28:18.490 --> 01:28:19.750]  [SPEAKER_14]: You know, it's nice to talk to people.
[01:28:19.890 --> 01:28:21.390]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, okay, yeah, we do that already.
[01:28:21.490 --> 01:28:22.250]  [SPEAKER_14]: What do you want us to do?
[01:28:22.310 --> 01:28:23.490]  [SPEAKER_14]: Use it 24 hours a day?
[01:28:23.950 --> 01:28:25.810]  [SPEAKER_14]: You know, you don't really have a choice.
[01:28:26.010 --> 01:28:27.270]  [SPEAKER_14]: I mean, that's going to change.
[01:28:27.990 --> 01:28:29.190]  [SPEAKER_14]: Mark, have you been keeping up with that?
[01:28:29.290 --> 01:28:31.310]  [SPEAKER_14]: There are going to be local phone companies hopefully soon?
[01:28:31.670 --> 01:28:32.210]  [SPEAKER_07]: What's this?
[01:28:32.470 --> 01:28:33.630]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, hopefully there will be.
[01:28:33.750 --> 01:28:34.610]  [SPEAKER_14]: They're talking about them.
[01:28:34.670 --> 01:28:36.130]  [SPEAKER_14]: They're called CAPs, C-A-P-S.
[01:28:36.470 --> 01:28:37.110]  [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, right, yeah.
[01:28:37.910 --> 01:28:38.790]  [SPEAKER_14]: I've read about that.
[01:28:38.870 --> 01:28:46.810]  [SPEAKER_14]: Hopefully, I mean, there are some already in New York City, but it hasn't reached the stage where, you know, Joe Q Public or whatever can call up and choose a local phone company.
[01:28:46.850 --> 01:28:47.970]  [SPEAKER_14]: But that day is coming.
[01:28:48.330 --> 01:28:56.170]  [SPEAKER_14]: And no doubt, because of lots of the complaints that we've been echoing here on this radio station, they've been happening to people all over the place, and they want competition.
[01:28:56.170 --> 01:28:57.510]  [SPEAKER_14]: They want something to choose from.
[01:28:58.030 --> 01:29:01.910]  [SPEAKER_14]: And that's, you know, that's part of the whole thing, freedom of choice.
[01:29:01.910 --> 01:29:06.210]  [SPEAKER_14]: You can choose what it is you want to use, how you want to use technology.
[01:29:06.230 --> 01:29:07.410]  [SPEAKER_14]: That's what we're all about here.
[01:29:07.970 --> 01:29:10.150]  [SPEAKER_14]: The thing is, though, we need you in order to be able to do that.
[01:29:10.210 --> 01:29:12.410]  [SPEAKER_14]: We don't have sponsors except for you.
[01:29:12.950 --> 01:29:15.370]  [SPEAKER_14]: Our listeners, people like you, are our sponsors.
[01:29:15.890 --> 01:29:20.150]  [SPEAKER_14]: And to keep it that way, we need our sponsors to help and show us support every now and then.
[01:29:20.370 --> 01:29:21.170]  [SPEAKER_14]: This is the time.
[01:29:21.270 --> 01:29:22.810]  [SPEAKER_14]: 212-279-3400.
[01:29:22.930 --> 01:29:23.370]  [SPEAKER_14]: What are we up to?
[01:29:23.370 --> 01:29:24.610]  [SPEAKER_14]: We're going down now.
[01:29:24.730 --> 01:29:26.370]  [SPEAKER_14]: I think they're recalculating over there.
[01:29:26.670 --> 01:29:29.170]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you should remind them about that free catalog.
[01:29:30.750 --> 01:29:32.350]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, Emmanuel, I have to interrupt.
[01:29:32.870 --> 01:29:35.430]  [SPEAKER_15]: Unfortunately, they're in the process of closing this building down.
[01:29:35.550 --> 01:29:35.950]  [SPEAKER_14]: Oh, dear.
[01:29:36.270 --> 01:29:40.390]  [SPEAKER_15]: So we're going to have to move back up to our unit, but there's only two telephones there.
[01:29:40.610 --> 01:29:41.610]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay, what does that mean?
[01:29:41.990 --> 01:29:47.010]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, that means that basically there's 160 people that may or may not want to use two telephones.
[01:29:47.250 --> 01:29:47.570]  [SPEAKER_15]: Yeah.
[01:29:47.730 --> 01:29:49.730]  [SPEAKER_15]: So I can try to get back through again.
[01:29:49.730 --> 01:29:51.850]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay, well, let's give it your best shot.
[01:29:51.870 --> 01:29:53.510]  [SPEAKER_14]: Hopefully, we'll hear back from you later on tonight.
[01:29:54.090 --> 01:29:57.150]  [SPEAKER_14]: Of course, your phone system goes down, doesn't it, once a night?
[01:29:57.250 --> 01:29:58.330]  [SPEAKER_15]: It goes down at midnight.
[01:29:59.030 --> 01:29:59.450]  [SPEAKER_14]: Uh-huh.
[01:29:59.630 --> 01:30:01.070]  [SPEAKER_15]: And it comes back on at 1 o'clock.
[01:30:01.710 --> 01:30:01.970]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay.
[01:30:02.090 --> 01:30:02.950]  [SPEAKER_14]: Why does it do that?
[01:30:02.990 --> 01:30:04.510]  [SPEAKER_14]: Why does the phone system go down for an hour?
[01:30:04.630 --> 01:30:06.590]  [SPEAKER_15]: They never actually gave any specific reason.
[01:30:06.790 --> 01:30:16.030]  [SPEAKER_15]: They claim that there's various rumors that it might be to change tapes to record phone calls or just for possible maintenance.
[01:30:16.410 --> 01:30:18.010]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, they're going to love this one, won't they?
[01:30:18.010 --> 01:30:18.010]  Okay.
[01:30:18.570 --> 01:30:19.030]  [SPEAKER_15]: What's that?
[01:30:19.090 --> 01:30:21.950]  [SPEAKER_14]: When they get around to listening to this phone call, they'll certainly be entertained.
[01:30:22.370 --> 01:30:22.510]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[01:30:23.730 --> 01:30:24.090]  [SPEAKER_14]: Wow.
[01:30:24.250 --> 01:30:25.990]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, that's quite a world you live in over there.
[01:30:26.130 --> 01:30:28.710]  [SPEAKER_02]: I hope you don't end up paying the price for some of this.
[01:30:28.870 --> 01:30:31.410]  [SPEAKER_15]: Well, if I do, it was a risk worth taking.
[01:30:31.550 --> 01:30:34.010]  [SPEAKER_15]: What they can't do is keep me from coming home on November 22nd.
[01:30:35.070 --> 01:30:35.890]  [SPEAKER_15]: That's what I'm talking about.
[01:30:36.070 --> 01:30:36.910]  [SPEAKER_15]: Freedom of speech.
[01:30:37.210 --> 01:30:46.550]  [SPEAKER_02]: Here's a guy taking a chance that he's going to get, you know, reprisals here in prison just for speaking his mind about the criminal justice system on radio.
[01:30:47.290 --> 01:30:48.010]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's amazing.
[01:30:48.350 --> 01:30:48.470]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah.
[01:30:49.050 --> 01:30:51.330]  [SPEAKER_14]: All right, Mark, you stay cool over there.
[01:30:51.450 --> 01:30:51.670]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[01:30:51.790 --> 01:30:52.790]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'll try to call back.
[01:30:52.890 --> 01:30:53.090]  [SPEAKER_14]: All right.
[01:30:53.130 --> 01:30:53.810]  [SPEAKER_14]: Hopefully we'll hear from you.
[01:30:53.950 --> 01:30:54.150]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay.
[01:30:54.230 --> 01:30:54.470]  [SPEAKER_14]: Bye-bye.
[01:30:54.570 --> 01:30:54.870]  [SPEAKER_14]: Take care.
[01:30:56.930 --> 01:30:57.650]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, that's...
[01:30:57.650 --> 01:30:58.710]  [SPEAKER_14]: I don't know if I could do that.
[01:30:58.870 --> 01:31:02.130]  [SPEAKER_14]: You know, I don't know if I could be as cool about that as he's being.
[01:31:02.230 --> 01:31:03.370]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I was...
[01:31:03.370 --> 01:31:04.370]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm impressed.
[01:31:04.370 --> 01:31:17.970]  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I've not heard Mark before, and I can tell that it sounds like this experience has really changed him, and who wouldn't be changed by it?
[01:31:18.270 --> 01:31:20.490]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, I think it's brought out what was always there.
[01:31:20.730 --> 01:31:30.410]  [SPEAKER_14]: You know, Mark's always been a courageous person, someone who's, you know, got a sense of the surroundings and can pretty much scope out a situation fairly quickly.
[01:31:31.150 --> 01:31:42.750]  [SPEAKER_14]: Um, I think, you know, part of this is because he's got so much support from people, you know, in the hacker world, from people in the radio world that have been following what's been going on, you know, and that's... that makes a big difference.
[01:31:43.450 --> 01:31:53.270]  [SPEAKER_14]: Because even... even when you're in there for a little while, I mean, I visit him now and then, and I'm in there for a few hours, you're really, really happy to be out of that place because it's so confining.
[01:31:53.410 --> 01:32:06.810]  [SPEAKER_14]: You feel the eyes constantly on you, watching everything you do, listening to everything you say, it's a... it's a damn scary place, and this is a minimal security prison, and I'm a visitor, and if I get this kind of reaction just from being there, uh,
[01:32:07.030 --> 01:32:07.610]  [SPEAKER_14]: you know, so...
[01:32:07.610 --> 01:32:16.450]  [SPEAKER_14]: so few... uh... amount of hours compared to his 24 hours a day, I mean, you can imagine what somebody that's, uh... that's there feel.
[01:32:16.550 --> 01:32:19.110]  [SPEAKER_14]: I mean, most people would change, yes, but they would change for the worse.
[01:32:19.210 --> 01:32:26.350]  [SPEAKER_14]: They come out of this intimidated and, um, you know, they'll never break a rule in their lives, no matter what kind of rule it is.
[01:32:26.850 --> 01:32:34.650]  [SPEAKER_14]: Uh, Mark, it sounds like it's still going to be able to, um, you know, to challenge injustices, and I sure hope, uh, that's the case.
[01:32:35.010 --> 01:32:41.650]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's, uh, uh, some people think there's country club prisons, and there really aren't country club prisons.
[01:32:41.870 --> 01:32:47.290]  [SPEAKER_02]: If, to the extent that there are, you're never going to go to one, I'm never going to go to one.
[01:32:47.290 --> 01:32:50.050]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, yeah, I mean, Casper Weinberger might go to one or something like that, but...
[01:32:50.050 --> 01:32:58.090]  [SPEAKER_02]: they're, uh, you're, uh, even your well-to-do, uh, well-heeled criminals are not going to end up going to a very nice place to be.
[01:32:58.450 --> 01:33:02.990]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, uh, the other thing I wanted to mention on that is, is, uh, like prisoner lawsuits.
[01:33:03.290 --> 01:33:10.030]  [SPEAKER_02]: You hear about these lawsuits because they served crunchy peanut butter and not smooth peanut butter, and some prisoner is suing over that.
[01:33:10.350 --> 01:33:10.690]  [SPEAKER_07]: Right.
[01:33:10.810 --> 01:33:17.130]  [SPEAKER_02]: People don't realize it's, is they're suing over that because they're suing over anything that they can sue over.
[01:33:17.290 --> 01:33:23.530]  [SPEAKER_02]: And they aren't allowed to sue over, you know, being beat up, but they are allowed to sue over the kind of food that they're served.
[01:33:23.690 --> 01:33:29.270]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, and the other reason you hear about it, and this is the real reason you hear about it, is because the media wants to say, look how silly this is.
[01:33:29.330 --> 01:33:31.010]  [SPEAKER_14]: Look how these people are wasting your tax dollars.
[01:33:31.130 --> 01:33:32.890]  [SPEAKER_14]: That's the story they want to, they want to air.
[01:33:33.230 --> 01:33:33.450]  [SPEAKER_14]: Right.
[01:33:33.650 --> 01:33:35.310]  [SPEAKER_02]: They don't want to go into something...
[01:33:35.310 --> 01:33:43.590]  [SPEAKER_02]: The truth behind these lawsuits is, it's just a way of striking out and fighting back against the bizarre injustice of prison.
[01:33:43.870 --> 01:33:44.010]  [SPEAKER_14]: Mm-hmm.
[01:33:44.930 --> 01:33:47.470]  [SPEAKER_14]: I mean, this has been a trip for all of us.
[01:33:47.770 --> 01:33:52.130]  [SPEAKER_14]: You know, we never really were able to go behind the wall and see what it was like back there.
[01:33:52.710 --> 01:33:54.010]  [SPEAKER_14]: We're learning a lot, you know.
[01:33:54.090 --> 01:33:59.650]  [SPEAKER_14]: This is stuff that we didn't necessarily want to learn, but, you know, we've been forced into it.
[01:33:59.750 --> 01:34:01.810]  [SPEAKER_14]: And all of a sudden, the whole thing has gotten much bigger.
[01:34:02.050 --> 01:34:03.470]  [SPEAKER_14]: You know, there's a lot of injustice.
[01:34:03.710 --> 01:34:08.510]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's not just against computer hackers and people that play with technology.
[01:34:08.770 --> 01:34:10.530]  [SPEAKER_14]: A lot of people are affected by this.
[01:34:10.530 --> 01:34:19.190]  [SPEAKER_02]: Plus, in a prison, it's those people who become political that are most heavily targeted by the prison officials for reprisals.
[01:34:19.490 --> 01:34:25.050]  [SPEAKER_02]: There's nothing worse than somebody who knows their rights and is willing to stand up for them in a prison.
[01:34:25.870 --> 01:34:28.950]  [SPEAKER_02]: It just singles you out as being a troublemaker.
[01:34:29.070 --> 01:34:40.850]  [SPEAKER_02]: A troublemaker for standing up for basic human dignity, like being able to take a shower, you know, more than once a week, or being able to walk out of your cell more than an hour a day.
[01:34:41.110 --> 01:34:50.110]  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, and these people who are willing to suffer greatly just to make a stand on principle.
[01:34:50.310 --> 01:34:57.630]  [SPEAKER_02]: Boy, there's nothing that the state hates more than somebody that is willing to take a stand on principle and not yield on that.
[01:34:57.630 --> 01:34:58.830]  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean...
[01:34:58.830 --> 01:35:04.530]  [SPEAKER_14]: That's funny because, yeah, that's true within a prison, but you know, it's also true just within our society.
[01:35:04.750 --> 01:35:10.950]  [SPEAKER_14]: There's nothing the government hates more than somebody that does that because it really makes things a royal pain in the ass for them.
[01:35:11.270 --> 01:35:11.570]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[01:35:11.850 --> 01:35:12.230]  [SPEAKER_14]: Absolutely.
[01:35:12.550 --> 01:35:24.790]  [SPEAKER_14]: You know, if they have an agenda and there's people standing up and preventing it, I mean, obviously they're going to want any way to get those people out of the way and keep themselves looking good too.
[01:35:25.370 --> 01:35:26.690]  [SPEAKER_02]: But it is a reality.
[01:35:26.790 --> 01:35:37.290]  [SPEAKER_02]: A lot of people out there who are doing innocent activities on computers, say you're just cruising around the Internet, you know, and you're trying to find out what's in this database or what's in that database.
[01:35:37.670 --> 01:35:40.850]  [SPEAKER_02]: All of a sudden you can be tagged as some sort of a hacker.
[01:35:41.130 --> 01:36:06.270]  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, that's where this book, Secrets of the Super Hacker, editing it, really helped me navigate the Internet because even though I'm not doing any hacking on there, if you're swimming around the Internet, you're going to get to places where you're stuck and you might try a command like menu or enter or list or something like that that all of a sudden pops you out of being unstuck.
[01:36:06.490 --> 01:36:12.290]  [SPEAKER_02]: So there's a whole version of hacking that has nothing to do with the legal breaking in.
[01:36:12.450 --> 01:36:14.070]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's just a search for information.
[01:36:14.290 --> 01:36:17.310]  [SPEAKER_02]: In most cases, a very harmless search for information.
[01:36:18.250 --> 01:36:25.510]  [SPEAKER_02]: And yet, nowadays, you know, you might stumble into the wrong corner of the net and be considered some sort of criminal for that.
[01:36:25.750 --> 01:36:26.050]  [SPEAKER_14]: Right.
[01:36:26.170 --> 01:36:36.250]  [SPEAKER_14]: And knowing this beforehand, knowing that you might stumble into the wrong part of the net, it certainly takes away the spirit of adventure when you're actually trying to figure the thing out.
[01:36:36.550 --> 01:36:38.330]  [SPEAKER_14]: You know, you'll be overly cautious.
[01:36:38.610 --> 01:36:40.750]  [SPEAKER_14]: You'll be careful what you say and what you do.
[01:36:40.910 --> 01:36:45.210]  [SPEAKER_14]: And you'll be looking over your shoulder all the time, thinking that if you type the wrong word, you could be breaking a law.
[01:36:45.610 --> 01:36:49.010]  [SPEAKER_14]: And it's not really the best way to venture into a new territory.
[01:36:49.750 --> 01:36:58.790]  [SPEAKER_02]: I can understand how they might put somebody in jail if they caused, you know, a company's computers to totally self-destruct or melt down or crash or whatever.
[01:36:59.050 --> 01:37:00.250]  [SPEAKER_14]: Of course, that's causing damage.
[01:37:00.450 --> 01:37:02.090]  [SPEAKER_14]: That's doing something that's a crime.
[01:37:02.090 --> 01:37:13.850]  [SPEAKER_02]: But to put somebody in jail for simply curiosity, for simply just trying to open, pick a lock, if you will, an electronic lock... Or for speaking out.
[01:37:13.990 --> 01:37:20.570]  [SPEAKER_02]: ...of doing any damage whatsoever, maintaining that lock is really the responsibility of those companies.
[01:37:21.470 --> 01:37:28.210]  [SPEAKER_02]: And unfortunately, Phiber Optik has done them a great favor by pointing out weaknesses in their security.
[01:37:28.490 --> 01:37:31.330]  [SPEAKER_02]: And now he's paying the price of being behind bars for it.
[01:37:33.330 --> 01:37:33.750]  [SPEAKER_14]: Unbelievable.
[01:37:34.470 --> 01:37:39.810]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, you know, we've been following this case for years now.
[01:37:39.910 --> 01:37:44.570]  [SPEAKER_14]: You know, this all started back in 1989 when he was raided the first time.
[01:37:44.610 --> 01:37:46.050]  [SPEAKER_14]: This has been going on for such a long time.
[01:37:46.290 --> 01:37:51.610]  [SPEAKER_14]: I mean, not just being put in prison, but the fear of being put in prison for five years.
[01:37:51.830 --> 01:37:55.330]  [SPEAKER_14]: You know, that's a prison in itself, just having to worry about this.
[01:37:55.470 --> 01:37:59.930]  [SPEAKER_14]: I mean, I went through this a long time ago, in the early 80s, and there was that fear.
[01:38:00.030 --> 01:38:04.270]  [SPEAKER_14]: At one point, they were saying they were going to send me to prison for 55 years for using someone's login password.
[01:38:04.850 --> 01:38:04.950]  [SPEAKER_14]: You know?
[01:38:05.330 --> 01:38:07.430]  [SPEAKER_14]: And, you know, at the time, I said, that's crazy.
[01:38:07.650 --> 01:38:08.510]  [SPEAKER_14]: You know, that's never going to happen.
[01:38:08.850 --> 01:38:12.270]  [SPEAKER_14]: But there was this element in me that was afraid, because what are they going to do?
[01:38:12.370 --> 01:38:13.330]  [SPEAKER_14]: You know, what are they really going to do?
[01:38:13.390 --> 01:38:14.290]  [SPEAKER_14]: These people are nuts.
[01:38:14.430 --> 01:38:16.370]  [SPEAKER_14]: They don't understand the system themselves.
[01:38:16.850 --> 01:38:18.730]  [SPEAKER_14]: They just want to make an example.
[01:38:19.430 --> 01:38:21.330]  [SPEAKER_14]: And they have the upper hand.
[01:38:21.970 --> 01:38:27.090]  [SPEAKER_14]: You know, a lot of people are facing situations like this, and we have to be there for them.
[01:38:27.170 --> 01:38:31.110]  [SPEAKER_14]: We have to be able to give them a voice and listen.
[01:38:31.650 --> 01:38:37.090]  [SPEAKER_14]: And, you know, not treat them as if they're doing something bad, because lots of times they're not doing something bad.
[01:38:37.170 --> 01:38:41.050]  [SPEAKER_14]: We have to be able to be open-minded about these things.
[01:38:41.050 --> 01:38:50.530]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, at Loompanics, we, as the editorial director there, I've dealt with a lot of people in prison over the last 10 years.
[01:38:50.550 --> 01:38:54.090]  [SPEAKER_02]: And it's been an eye-opening experience.
[01:38:54.390 --> 01:38:56.250]  [SPEAKER_02]: Many of our authors are doing time.
[01:38:56.470 --> 01:38:58.050]  [SPEAKER_02]: They have their mail read.
[01:38:58.190 --> 01:38:59.310]  [SPEAKER_02]: They have their mail seized.
[01:38:59.330 --> 01:39:04.750]  [SPEAKER_02]: I can't even send them copies of their own books that they've written because they're not allowed into the prisons.
[01:39:05.130 --> 01:39:07.130]  [SPEAKER_02]: They've had manuscripts seized.
[01:39:07.850 --> 01:39:15.270]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I've also dealt with many people who are, you know, on the lam from the cops.
[01:39:15.330 --> 01:39:18.890]  [SPEAKER_02]: And their phone numbers change every 30 days.
[01:39:19.050 --> 01:39:20.790]  [SPEAKER_02]: Their addresses are always changing.
[01:39:21.850 --> 01:39:28.130]  [SPEAKER_02]: We're holding royalties in escrow form because we can't find them to send them their checks and stuff.
[01:39:28.590 --> 01:39:30.670]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's really a different world.
[01:39:30.670 --> 01:39:35.010]  [SPEAKER_02]: And a lot of people don't see it because they don't want you to see it.
[01:39:35.150 --> 01:39:36.230]  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it really is.
[01:39:36.550 --> 01:39:43.290]  [SPEAKER_02]: That's probably the most frightening thing about prison is if you're inside, you feel like the whole world's forgotten about you.
[01:39:43.850 --> 01:39:58.090]  [SPEAKER_02]: And, um, because that's part of the punishment is they tried to make it out of sight, out of mind and, and, um, to make you disappear, uh, to make you feel, uh, like you're less than a human being.
[01:39:58.730 --> 01:40:02.150]  [SPEAKER_14]: You know, we touched upon this last week for a few minutes at the close of the program.
[01:40:02.270 --> 01:40:05.450]  [SPEAKER_14]: We were talking about, uh, uh, super maximum security.
[01:40:05.590 --> 01:40:06.410]  [SPEAKER_14]: Have you heard anything about this?
[01:40:06.650 --> 01:40:06.850]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
[01:40:07.130 --> 01:40:09.210]  [SPEAKER_07]: Marion prison is an example of that.
[01:40:09.350 --> 01:40:17.550]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, now this was supposedly something that they're thinking of in the future where they build something into a mountain and, and these, these are for people that would never have any human contact whatsoever.
[01:40:18.090 --> 01:40:19.790]  [SPEAKER_02]: I have not heard about this.
[01:40:19.930 --> 01:40:20.110]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah.
[01:40:20.110 --> 01:40:36.250]  [SPEAKER_14]: That's, that's something that, uh, supposedly has been in several, uh, magazine articles and documentaries and, um, meant for people, uh, uh, you know, uh, serial killers of, of the most, uh, incredible caliber people that you would never want to have,
[01:40:36.270 --> 01:40:37.810]  [SPEAKER_14]: uh, in touch with somebody else.
[01:40:38.030 --> 01:40:40.890]  [SPEAKER_14]: Uh, their food would be given to them by, by machinery.
[01:40:41.310 --> 01:40:47.250]  [SPEAKER_14]: Uh, they'd be, you know, a shower would come up and, and they'd use that, but no person would ever be in contact with them.
[01:40:47.390 --> 01:40:50.430]  [SPEAKER_14]: And it just seemed like a punishment worse than death.
[01:40:50.950 --> 01:40:53.590]  [SPEAKER_14]: You know, if this is such a thing that has actually been considered.
[01:40:54.130 --> 01:40:54.490]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[01:40:54.670 --> 01:40:57.690]  [SPEAKER_02]: I guess that's supposedly not cruel or unusual, huh?
[01:40:57.870 --> 01:41:00.910]  [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe if it's too common, then it won't be unusual.
[01:41:01.250 --> 01:41:06.850]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, the thing is, these are people that you would supposedly have no pity or sense of compassion for in the first place.
[01:41:07.330 --> 01:41:11.470]  [SPEAKER_14]: But, uh, you have to wonder, you know, how, how can a society make something like that?
[01:41:11.550 --> 01:41:18.750]  [SPEAKER_14]: That really is, uh, is, is incredibly cruel, I think, even to anybody else who's, uh, inhuman themselves.
[01:41:19.710 --> 01:41:22.170]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, there's a prison called Marion.
[01:41:22.370 --> 01:41:22.850]  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not sure.
[01:41:22.930 --> 01:41:24.250]  [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's Marion, Ohio.
[01:41:25.310 --> 01:41:27.470]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's a maximum security prison.
[01:41:27.670 --> 01:41:39.570]  [SPEAKER_02]: And the Supreme Court ruled that, um, you know, it's cruel and unusual punishment to lock somebody down and to deny them showers and to deny them movement and recreation, et cetera.
[01:41:39.890 --> 01:41:45.150]  [SPEAKER_02]: But apparently it's not cruel and unusual to lock, if you lock down the entire prison.
[01:41:45.930 --> 01:41:50.730]  [SPEAKER_02]: So the, the prison in Marion has been on lockdown since 1987.
[01:41:51.870 --> 01:42:01.870]  [SPEAKER_02]: And this has become a new strategy with federal prisons is to, um, simply lock them down and keep them locked down for indefinitely.
[01:42:02.450 --> 01:42:10.730]  [SPEAKER_02]: And you can't imagine how psychologically debilitating it is to only be able to get out of yourself for a half an hour a day.
[01:42:11.210 --> 01:42:16.110]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, it just is, uh, frightening that some of the conditions that people are kept in.
[01:42:16.190 --> 01:42:19.690]  [SPEAKER_02]: And Marion is a particularly used to house political prisoners.
[01:42:19.990 --> 01:42:23.350]  [SPEAKER_14]: So now what's, what's your definition of political prisoner?
[01:42:24.930 --> 01:42:30.150]  [SPEAKER_02]: Somebody who's in prison, not for doing any act of violence, but basically because of their beliefs.
[01:42:30.990 --> 01:42:37.650]  [SPEAKER_02]: Um, many members of the American Indian movement are, are, are in prison because they're political prisoners.
[01:42:38.710 --> 01:42:48.490]  [SPEAKER_02]: Um, I would consider even fiber optic to be a political prisoner at this point, because he's locked up to set an example.
[01:42:48.630 --> 01:42:50.010]  [SPEAKER_02]: He's locked up as a symbol.
[01:42:50.170 --> 01:42:52.070]  [SPEAKER_02]: He's locked up because he is an idea.
[01:42:52.290 --> 01:42:59.090]  [SPEAKER_02]: He represents, um, a political idea of, uh, freedom of information.
[01:42:59.090 --> 01:43:04.910]  [SPEAKER_02]: And so he's considered a threat just because of what he believes, not because of what he's done.
[01:43:06.870 --> 01:43:10.890]  [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if there's a specific definition of political prisoners.
[01:43:11.070 --> 01:43:18.250]  [SPEAKER_02]: I suppose Amnesty International would have one, and they consider many Americans to be kept in prison for political reasons.
[01:43:18.970 --> 01:43:23.550]  [SPEAKER_14]: That would be something if we could actually get Amnesty International to define, Mark, as a political prisoner.
[01:43:24.070 --> 01:43:28.390]  [SPEAKER_14]: I would, that would certainly change things, uh, uh, for future hacker cases.
[01:43:28.570 --> 01:43:30.170]  [SPEAKER_07]: It would probably make his life worse.
[01:43:30.230 --> 01:43:30.850]  [SPEAKER_14]: It probably would.
[01:43:30.970 --> 01:43:32.790]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, that's why I would hesitate to even consider it.
[01:43:32.890 --> 01:43:36.550]  [SPEAKER_14]: But, uh, it is a very interesting way to, to deal with this.
[01:43:36.750 --> 01:43:38.850]  [SPEAKER_14]: Um, I guess in a way it's kind of intuitive.
[01:43:39.210 --> 01:43:43.910]  [SPEAKER_14]: Um, you, you know when someone is a criminal and when they should be kept away from society.
[01:43:44.310 --> 01:43:51.210]  [SPEAKER_14]: And in cases like Mark and the other person we spoke with, it just seems like, you know, it's, it's a mistake to, to lock these people away.
[01:43:51.930 --> 01:43:54.930]  [SPEAKER_14]: I mean, what, who is, um, who is benefiting from this?
[01:43:55.150 --> 01:43:55.310]  [SPEAKER_14]: Certainly.
[01:43:55.550 --> 01:44:00.850]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, this is where, um, the people benefiting from it now are increasingly our law enforcement.
[01:44:01.110 --> 01:44:10.670]  [SPEAKER_02]: Um, and this is why I say the, the war on drugs is a growth industry for law enforcement because through it they've gotten access to the asset forfeiture laws.
[01:44:10.670 --> 01:44:11.150]  [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[01:44:11.330 --> 01:44:30.630]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now they pay for their, their trips to training camps in Hawaii and they pay for their fancy sports cars for all the officers and the, and the, uh, police stations and, uh, cable TV and the cop shops and all these little goodies and perks that are coming out of asset forfeiture laws,
[01:44:30.730 --> 01:44:40.650]  [SPEAKER_02]: which is basically money that they've shaken down from anybody that's been accused, not even convicted of, uh, of a drug conviction, uh, drug violation.
[01:44:40.650 --> 01:44:57.130]  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, and, um, in fact, there's some, somewhere of 80% of all asset forfeitures are, are uncontested and never result in the person going to, uh, jail for the crime that they were accused of, but they never had their property returned to them either.
[01:44:57.910 --> 01:45:06.670]  [SPEAKER_14]: So, um, I think they're trying to do the same thing with, uh, a lot of computer cases because, uh, law enforcement keeps a lot of the computer equipment.
[01:45:06.790 --> 01:45:12.370]  [SPEAKER_14]: In fact, hacker cases are, are a tremendous source of computer equipment for law enforcement.
[01:45:12.530 --> 01:45:22.570]  [SPEAKER_14]: We, we even intercepted a memo that said something like that or actually an article in a, uh, district attorney magazine in California that said, uh, prosecuting hackers is fun and it's profitable.
[01:45:23.230 --> 01:45:39.090]  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, that, that is sick, that, that is how they look upon I mean, there was a case in California where they actually, the Scott case, where they actually handed out an appraisal of this guy's property at a pre-raid briefing before the cops went to his house.
[01:45:39.090 --> 01:45:42.510]  [SPEAKER_02]: And they showed his property valued at $2.5 million.
[01:45:42.790 --> 01:45:47.010]  [SPEAKER_02]: And they went in to find drugs, ended up shooting Mr. Scott.
[01:45:47.710 --> 01:45:49.330]  [SPEAKER_02]: And no drugs were ever found.
[01:45:49.470 --> 01:45:52.670]  [SPEAKER_02]: Of course, the police have taken a big rap on the knuckles for this.
[01:45:52.670 --> 01:46:02.470]  [SPEAKER_02]: But there's no doubt that asset forfeiture was the motivation behind the raid and behind what cost this innocent person his life eventually.
[01:46:03.200 --> 01:46:06.830]  [SPEAKER_02]: And this is really a very serious problem.
[01:46:07.250 --> 01:46:21.990]  [SPEAKER_02]: The 50% of the Cook County law enforcement, the Cook County Sheriff's Office and their law enforcement in Chicago, 50% of their employees are now involved in the asset forfeiture unit.
[01:46:22.830 --> 01:46:25.610]  [SPEAKER_02]: Of the Cook County Sheriff's Division.
[01:46:25.910 --> 01:46:28.710]  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, a couple of years ago, they didn't even have one.
[01:46:28.850 --> 01:46:33.030]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now they have an asset forfeiture unit that's divided into five divisions.
[01:46:33.030 --> 01:46:38.490]  [SPEAKER_02]: One for swiping people's automobiles, one for real estate, one for cash.
[01:46:38.790 --> 01:46:45.970]  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, it just is, it's an amazingly, stunningly powerful law enforcement tool.
[01:46:45.970 --> 01:46:59.950]  [SPEAKER_02]: And the frightening thing is some of the abuses of this have caused the Supreme Court to say you can't use it excessively, like you can't take somebody's house if they're convicted of shoplifting.
[01:46:59.950 --> 01:47:13.270]  [SPEAKER_02]: But the scary thing is the new crime bill that just passed Congress and was signed by the president involves the expansion of asset forfeiture to more than just drug crimes.
[01:47:13.510 --> 01:47:17.150]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now they want to go after white-collar crimes and use this tool.
[01:47:17.310 --> 01:47:25.530]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I'll guarantee you that hacking is one of those crimes that has recently had the asset forfeiture provisions beefed up on it.
[01:47:25.530 --> 01:47:40.290]  [SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, people can look forward to seeing a new sort of criminal justice in America where the police no longer have to ask for tax revenue in order to fund their operations.
[01:47:40.720 --> 01:47:50.670]  [SPEAKER_02]: All they have to do is go out and find unpopular, wealthy citizens and rip off whatever they got and use that to support the police department.
[01:47:50.990 --> 01:47:53.150]  [SPEAKER_14]: Let me just insert a programming note here.
[01:47:53.150 --> 01:47:56.050]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's currently 11.58.
[01:47:56.290 --> 01:48:01.090]  [SPEAKER_14]: The program normally on this time, Earthwatch with Robert Knight, will be on at midnight.
[01:48:01.950 --> 01:48:03.350]  [SPEAKER_14]: So stay tuned for that.
[01:48:03.550 --> 01:48:05.150]  [SPEAKER_14]: We're on for about another 12 minutes or so.
[01:48:05.250 --> 01:48:13.370]  [SPEAKER_14]: And we are asking for your support here at WBAI because that's how we survive, by getting support from listeners like you.
[01:48:13.450 --> 01:48:16.910]  [SPEAKER_14]: And if you like what you heard tonight or, you know, I don't like what I heard tonight.
[01:48:16.910 --> 01:48:23.370]  [SPEAKER_14]: But, I mean, if you were educated and enthralled as much as I was, of course, I might have to sit here.
[01:48:23.510 --> 01:48:30.150]  [SPEAKER_14]: But the thing is, if I was driving in my car, I probably wouldn't be getting out of my car to do anything else because this is a really fascinating discussion, I think.
[01:48:30.150 --> 01:48:38.250]  [SPEAKER_14]: Just hearing about what's going on in prison and how it all ties into freedom of speech and publishing and everything like that.
[01:48:39.590 --> 01:48:42.810]  [SPEAKER_14]: So, if you've done that, you've gotten something out of this.
[01:48:43.010 --> 01:48:50.150]  [SPEAKER_14]: And you can ensure that we do things like this in the future and cover the issues by pledging your support to 212-279-3400.
[01:48:51.150 --> 01:48:53.410]  [SPEAKER_14]: Please do it now because we're only on for a few more minutes.
[01:48:53.850 --> 01:49:08.910]  [SPEAKER_14]: And it would be a great way to show fiber optic that there are a lot of people out there that really care and are willing to show support for the station so that when he comes back, there'll be a place where he can speak out even more and tell us what went on in there.
[01:49:09.170 --> 01:49:21.410]  [SPEAKER_14]: Those of you that pledged $75 will get a copy of the book donated by Loompanics' Secrets of a Super Hacker, which Mark has not seen yet, but I'm sure he'll find it interesting when he gets out.
[01:49:21.490 --> 01:49:28.350]  [SPEAKER_14]: All kinds of hacker secrets and things you might have heard about through other means as well.
[01:49:28.350 --> 01:49:37.450]  [SPEAKER_14]: The Hacker Ethic, the latest in technology, CD-ROM databases, what's out there, passwords, access control, and of course social engineering.
[01:49:37.690 --> 01:49:40.070]  [SPEAKER_14]: So all of that for a pledge of $75.
[01:49:40.590 --> 01:49:52.730]  [SPEAKER_14]: And everybody that pledges, no matter how big or how small, will get a copy of the Loompanics catalog, which is basically a list of all the books that Loompanics publishes.
[01:49:52.730 --> 01:49:59.630]  [SPEAKER_14]: Loompanics is probably the biggest distributor of such material in the country, would you say so?
[01:50:00.210 --> 01:50:01.150]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, certainly.
[01:50:02.230 --> 01:50:09.890]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's a field that's not... there's not a lot of competition to distribute such weird or offbeat books.
[01:50:10.150 --> 01:50:15.190]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, you must get a lot of opposition from various people that try and stop you, right?
[01:50:15.190 --> 01:50:15.670]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[01:50:15.930 --> 01:50:19.310]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, actually, not really very much.
[01:50:19.550 --> 01:50:22.850]  [SPEAKER_02]: We've been hassled fairly little by law enforcement.
[01:50:23.190 --> 01:50:34.810]  [SPEAKER_02]: In fact, I almost hate to say this on your program, but the number one buyers of Secrets of a Super Hacker have been corporations and governments, government agencies.
[01:50:36.010 --> 01:50:39.550]  [SPEAKER_02]: They're trying to figure out how to protect all those government computers.
[01:50:39.550 --> 01:50:43.270]  [SPEAKER_02]: And I was stunned at the amount of money.
[01:50:43.610 --> 01:50:50.450]  [SPEAKER_02]: They're willing to part with their 20 bucks on those corporate credit cards or at taxpayer expense.
[01:50:50.770 --> 01:50:54.570]  [SPEAKER_02]: So they have really scooped up a lot of copies of this book.
[01:50:54.810 --> 01:50:58.370]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, I'm happy to say, and I'm sure you can probably tell by the static, that Mark is back.
[01:50:58.970 --> 01:51:02.710]  [SPEAKER_15]: Now, by the way, I have another person who I'd like you to hear their plate.
[01:51:02.910 --> 01:51:03.670]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay, let's hear it.
[01:51:03.750 --> 01:51:03.930]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay.
[01:51:05.530 --> 01:51:06.690]  [SPEAKER_14]: This is live from prison.
[01:51:06.910 --> 01:51:07.190]  [SPEAKER_15]: Hello?
[01:51:07.650 --> 01:51:08.630]  [SPEAKER_14]: Hi, who are we talking to?
[01:51:08.630 --> 01:51:09.450]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, Ira.
[01:51:09.770 --> 01:51:10.390]  [SPEAKER_14]: Hi, Ira.
[01:51:10.490 --> 01:51:13.610]  [SPEAKER_14]: This is Emmanuel, and we have Steve over in Washington State.
[01:51:14.750 --> 01:51:16.290]  [SPEAKER_14]: So what are you in for?
[01:51:16.810 --> 01:51:17.030]  [SPEAKER_16]: See?
[01:51:17.710 --> 01:51:23.970]  [SPEAKER_16]: I was sentenced for eight counts, four counts of money laundering and four counts of drug conspiracy.
[01:51:24.730 --> 01:51:27.090]  [SPEAKER_14]: And what kind of drug conspiracy are we talking about?
[01:51:27.270 --> 01:51:28.190]  [SPEAKER_16]: Um, ecstasy.
[01:51:28.630 --> 01:51:28.850]  [SPEAKER_14]: Really?
[01:51:28.990 --> 01:51:29.470]  [SPEAKER_14]: Are you familiar with it?
[01:51:29.630 --> 01:51:30.050]  [SPEAKER_14]: Oh, yeah.
[01:51:30.410 --> 01:51:33.370]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, now, as far as, how do you conspire with a drug?
[01:51:33.790 --> 01:51:34.210]  [SPEAKER_16]: Excuse me?
[01:51:34.590 --> 01:51:36.710]  [SPEAKER_14]: How do you conspire with ecstasy?
[01:51:36.710 --> 01:51:38.510]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, I was, uh...
[01:51:38.510 --> 01:51:45.890]  [SPEAKER_16]: Some other people got caught, uh, selling some ecstasy to the DEA agents, and so they turned around and said that I was the one who sold it to them.
[01:51:46.430 --> 01:51:46.970]  [SPEAKER_14]: I see.
[01:51:47.210 --> 01:51:48.930]  [SPEAKER_16]: So they tied me into drug conspiracy.
[01:51:49.870 --> 01:51:52.850]  [SPEAKER_16]: They didn't actually, uh, catch me with anything.
[01:51:53.510 --> 01:51:53.810]  [SPEAKER_14]: Uh-huh.
[01:51:54.490 --> 01:51:55.570]  [SPEAKER_14]: How long are you in for?
[01:51:56.190 --> 01:52:02.890]  [SPEAKER_16]: Um, well, they gave me six and a half years for money laundering and, uh, another, uh, forty-one months for, uh, the drug conspiracy.
[01:52:02.910 --> 01:52:03.530]  [SPEAKER_14]: Oh, wow.
[01:52:03.690 --> 01:52:05.210]  [SPEAKER_14]: That's, that's, that's really...
[01:52:05.210 --> 01:52:08.130]  [SPEAKER_16]: I'm running them concurrently, so I only have to do, uh, seventy-eight months.
[01:52:08.710 --> 01:52:09.410]  [SPEAKER_16]: Oh, man.
[01:52:09.630 --> 01:52:10.590]  [SPEAKER_14]: Seventy-eight months?
[01:52:10.770 --> 01:52:11.050]  [SPEAKER_14]: Right.
[01:52:11.190 --> 01:52:12.170]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, how many years is that?
[01:52:12.370 --> 01:52:13.030]  [SPEAKER_16]: Six and a half.
[01:52:13.770 --> 01:52:15.510]  [SPEAKER_14]: Six and a half years at a place like that?
[01:52:15.670 --> 01:52:15.930]  [SPEAKER_16]: Right.
[01:52:15.930 --> 01:52:19.350]  [SPEAKER_16]: And mind you, the money laundering charge was for a total of $2,000.
[01:52:20.070 --> 01:52:21.570]  [SPEAKER_14]: How do you launder $2,000?
[01:52:21.910 --> 01:52:23.130]  [SPEAKER_14]: I mean, I really don't know how to do that.
[01:52:23.310 --> 01:52:29.590]  [SPEAKER_02]: Folks should know that money laundering can just be kiting checks, according to the federal government nowadays.
[01:52:29.890 --> 01:52:37.470]  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, you write a check and there's not enough money to cover it in your account immediately, that's considered check fraud and probably money laundering.
[01:52:37.470 --> 01:52:39.430]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, I thought that was considered bouncing a check.
[01:52:40.070 --> 01:52:41.830]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, I think that's a different charge.
[01:52:42.450 --> 01:52:42.930]  [SPEAKER_14]: Uh-huh.
[01:52:43.150 --> 01:52:48.450]  [SPEAKER_16]: Um, I really, uh, I really think that that was a really shaky charge that, uh, I shouldn't have been charged with.
[01:52:48.730 --> 01:52:57.310]  [SPEAKER_16]: They considered it money laundering because, uh, somebody sent me, uh, Western Union and, uh, I sent it to my wife's name because I wasn't going to be in town.
[01:52:57.850 --> 01:53:00.770]  [SPEAKER_16]: So they said I was trying to, uh, disguise the proceeds.
[01:53:01.730 --> 01:53:02.170]  [SPEAKER_16]: Amazing.
[01:53:02.490 --> 01:53:02.970]  [SPEAKER_16]: So, uh...
[01:53:02.970 --> 01:53:11.310]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, I mean, even more so than Mark, this seems like a case where, I mean, the sentence handed out here just does not match by any means a crime.
[01:53:11.530 --> 01:53:13.070]  [SPEAKER_16]: I, uh, I totally agree.
[01:53:13.070 --> 01:53:18.030]  [SPEAKER_16]: I think it's a little ridiculous, uh, to give somebody, such a long time for such a minor offense.
[01:53:18.910 --> 01:53:20.050]  [SPEAKER_14]: How long have you been in for?
[01:53:20.530 --> 01:53:25.430]  [SPEAKER_16]: Um, actually, I got here three days before Mark did, so we've almost been in exactly the same time.
[01:53:25.590 --> 01:53:29.150]  [SPEAKER_16]: So I'll be, I'm starting the second week of my ninth month.
[01:53:29.370 --> 01:53:31.910]  [SPEAKER_14]: Are you getting, uh, getting visitors, getting mail?
[01:53:32.150 --> 01:53:32.850]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, sure.
[01:53:33.030 --> 01:53:38.790]  [SPEAKER_16]: My, uh, my wife is one of these types that, uh, wouldn't go, uh, let a week go by without seeing me.
[01:53:39.010 --> 01:53:41.110]  [SPEAKER_16]: She's been extremely supportive, so...
[01:53:41.110 --> 01:53:41.410]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh-huh.
[01:53:41.550 --> 01:53:44.710]  [SPEAKER_16]: I, uh, I've been getting a lot of visits from her and my mother.
[01:53:45.250 --> 01:53:45.550]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh-huh.
[01:53:45.730 --> 01:53:47.550]  [SPEAKER_16]: Uh, the mail has been flowing in as well.
[01:53:47.870 --> 01:53:51.070]  [SPEAKER_16]: Can't say I'm as popular as Mark, but, uh, I do get my fair share.
[01:53:51.270 --> 01:53:53.010]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, do you want to give out your, your address as well?
[01:53:53.210 --> 01:53:56.790]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, it's the same one, uh, uh, VO Box 670.
[01:53:57.330 --> 01:53:58.650]  [SPEAKER_14]: Right, okay, but your name is going to be different.
[01:53:58.650 --> 01:54:06.570]  [SPEAKER_16]: Oh, uh, Heaps, H-E-A-P-S, and the, uh, the number is 3-4-3-1-4-0-5-4.
[01:54:06.830 --> 01:54:08.650]  [SPEAKER_14]: So you're from that same 0-5-4 court.
[01:54:08.910 --> 01:54:09.270]  Right.
[01:54:09.670 --> 01:54:18.270]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay, and that's FPC, School Kill, S-C-H-U-Y-L-K-I-double-L, Unit 1, VO Box 670, Minersville, Pennsylvania, 1-7-9-5-4.
[01:54:18.650 --> 01:54:18.830]  [SPEAKER_14]: Right.
[01:54:19.010 --> 01:54:23.250]  [SPEAKER_14]: Uh, now, as far as, as actually being there, how do you consider the place to be?
[01:54:23.730 --> 01:54:28.010]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, um, I don't really have too much to, uh, judge it by.
[01:54:28.010 --> 01:54:31.070]  [SPEAKER_16]: This is really the first time I've ever been locked up in a federal prison.
[01:54:31.690 --> 01:54:38.730]  [SPEAKER_16]: I mean, I personally am the type of person that makes the best out of any situation, so I'm trying to make the best I possibly can out of it.
[01:54:39.410 --> 01:54:43.490]  [SPEAKER_16]: Uh, I, the first thing I can say right off the bat is it's extremely overcrowded.
[01:54:43.690 --> 01:54:46.810]  [SPEAKER_16]: There's really not enough places for the amount of people that are here.
[01:54:47.670 --> 01:54:54.970]  [SPEAKER_16]: Um, you know, to get together a card game with four guys, you gotta, like, run down and scrounge up the nearest hallway and put a table into it.
[01:54:56.210 --> 01:54:56.730]  [SPEAKER_16]: Mm-hmm.
[01:54:56.730 --> 01:55:00.070]  [SPEAKER_16]: Um, other than that, the facility is, uh, is nice.
[01:55:00.290 --> 01:55:03.390]  [SPEAKER_16]: It's, uh, it's outdoor, uh, activities.
[01:55:03.730 --> 01:55:06.350]  [SPEAKER_16]: It's just, uh, not really too much to do.
[01:55:06.550 --> 01:55:08.970]  [SPEAKER_16]: The education lacks and, uh, the recreation lacks.
[01:55:08.970 --> 01:55:12.470]  [SPEAKER_14]: You don't, you don't have, you don't have golf, uh, golf courses and tennis courts now, do you?
[01:55:12.610 --> 01:55:13.290]  [SPEAKER_02]: Not even close.
[01:55:13.430 --> 01:55:13.970]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, okay.
[01:55:14.550 --> 01:55:24.410]  [SPEAKER_02]: Is there any sort of thing for you to be able to, um, study or take classes or, or, uh, do something to pass the time that might be more constructive than making furniture?
[01:55:24.710 --> 01:55:28.430]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, what he's asking is, are you able to take any kind of courses, college courses or things like that?
[01:55:28.630 --> 01:55:32.310]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, I'm currently enrolled in the college program, uh, right now.
[01:55:32.310 --> 01:55:39.810]  [SPEAKER_16]: So, yes, you can take them, but, uh, I don't know if you're familiar that they, uh, they canceled the Pell Grants, supposedly.
[01:55:40.150 --> 01:55:40.730]  [SPEAKER_16]: Oh, right.
[01:55:41.050 --> 01:55:44.670]  [SPEAKER_16]: So, if that bill does go through, then I won't be able to take any more courses.
[01:55:45.010 --> 01:55:46.590]  [SPEAKER_16]: And is that the same crime bill?
[01:55:46.690 --> 01:55:47.930]  [SPEAKER_16]: Is that in the crime bill?
[01:55:48.110 --> 01:55:49.390]  [SPEAKER_16]: The infamous crime bill.
[01:55:49.610 --> 01:55:50.650]  [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, that went through.
[01:55:50.650 --> 01:55:51.390]  [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, that's a popular subject here.
[01:55:51.450 --> 01:55:51.750]  [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, boy.
[01:55:52.650 --> 01:55:53.090]  [SPEAKER_02]: Wow.
[01:55:54.170 --> 01:56:01.850]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, wouldn't, wouldn't you think that somebody like you, uh, would receive a lighter sentence considering their concerns over overcrowding?
[01:56:02.330 --> 01:56:04.270]  [SPEAKER_02]: Why give you such a heavy sentence?
[01:56:04.830 --> 01:56:08.150]  [SPEAKER_16]: I, they, they treat money laundering very seriously.
[01:56:08.550 --> 01:56:16.170]  [SPEAKER_16]: And, uh, I believe that they should really go back and, uh, give people the sentences for money laundering that really deserve it.
[01:56:16.310 --> 01:56:20.250]  [SPEAKER_16]: And, you know, a $2,000 check that was mailed to, uh, somebody else's name.
[01:56:20.650 --> 01:56:22.030]  [SPEAKER_16]: You shouldn't get such a sentence.
[01:56:23.190 --> 01:56:26.550]  [SPEAKER_02]: Now, there's nothing illegal about what you did, is there?
[01:56:26.750 --> 01:56:27.410]  [SPEAKER_16]: Excuse me?
[01:56:27.590 --> 01:56:31.370]  [SPEAKER_02]: There's nothing illegal about sending the check to somebody else, is there?
[01:56:31.410 --> 01:56:35.190]  [SPEAKER_02]: It's only because of the drug thing that that was considered laundering and not...
[01:56:35.190 --> 01:56:36.210]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, that's how they tied it in.
[01:56:36.350 --> 01:56:43.910]  [SPEAKER_16]: First, they convicted me of the drug charge, so therefore there's no explanation for the money outside of the drugs, so, uh, that's how they tied it in.
[01:56:43.910 --> 01:56:44.170]  [SPEAKER_16]: Oh.
[01:56:44.550 --> 01:56:44.770]  [SPEAKER_16]: Mm-hmm.
[01:56:45.610 --> 01:56:56.930]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I want people to know, when you say money laundering, they're thinking of this heinous crime or some kind of complicated scam or something, but you're just talking about stuff that we all do all the time.
[01:56:57.090 --> 01:57:10.310]  [SPEAKER_16]: Well, actually, there is a second part of it, and the second part is that, uh, they charged me with two more counts, because they say that, uh, the people that sent me the money had sold some drugs to make the money.
[01:57:10.310 --> 01:57:24.370]  [SPEAKER_16]: So they charged me also with receiving money from drug proceeds, and when I put the question to them, it's like, if I were to receive a check from any individual, am I going to stop every single person and say, um, you didn't sell drugs to get this money,
[01:57:24.450 --> 01:57:24.690]  [SPEAKER_16]: did you?
[01:57:24.750 --> 01:57:26.370]  [SPEAKER_16]: Because you did, I really can't take it.
[01:57:26.650 --> 01:57:31.290]  [SPEAKER_16]: I mean, I really don't think I should be responsible for knowing where the money came from.
[01:57:31.490 --> 01:57:31.770]  [SPEAKER_16]: Right.
[01:57:32.050 --> 01:57:32.750]  [SPEAKER_14]: This is unbelievable.
[01:57:32.990 --> 01:57:36.630]  [SPEAKER_14]: Unfortunately, we're out of time, but, uh, we want to wish you the best of luck over there.
[01:57:36.630 --> 01:57:38.170]  [SPEAKER_14]: What's, what's the earliest you can get out?
[01:57:38.910 --> 01:57:39.710]  [SPEAKER_16]: Um, 1999.
[01:57:40.470 --> 01:57:41.010]  [SPEAKER_14]: Oh, boy.
[01:57:41.330 --> 01:57:42.370]  [SPEAKER_16]: I'm trying to behave myself.
[01:57:42.810 --> 01:57:53.950]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, I hope people think about what we've heard tonight, uh, as, as they go about their daily routines, because, you know, folks like you really shouldn't be in places like that for, for, for amounts of time like this.
[01:57:54.130 --> 01:57:54.770]  [SPEAKER_02]: I think that way.
[01:57:55.570 --> 01:57:56.790]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay, is Mark still there?
[01:57:57.050 --> 01:57:57.930]  [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, yeah, hold on a second.
[01:57:57.930 --> 01:57:58.850]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, thanks, good luck.
[01:57:58.990 --> 01:57:59.690]  [SPEAKER_02]: All right, bye-bye.
[01:58:00.550 --> 01:58:02.330]  [SPEAKER_02]: Hey, it's been very enlightening, Emmanuel.
[01:58:02.410 --> 01:58:02.850]  [SPEAKER_14]: Oh, yeah.
[01:58:03.630 --> 01:58:05.090]  [SPEAKER_14]: Almost too enlightening for me.
[01:58:06.670 --> 01:58:07.510]  [SPEAKER_14]: Oh, this is something.
[01:58:07.730 --> 01:58:08.290]  [SPEAKER_14]: Hi, Mark.
[01:58:08.470 --> 01:58:10.670]  [SPEAKER_14]: Um, we're out of time, but, uh...
[01:58:10.670 --> 01:58:11.490]  [SPEAKER_15]: We're out of time, too.
[01:58:11.870 --> 01:58:12.610]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, oh, that's right.
[01:58:12.690 --> 01:58:13.830]  [SPEAKER_14]: Your system's going to go down, isn't it?
[01:58:13.930 --> 01:58:14.070]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah.
[01:58:14.550 --> 01:58:14.790]  [SPEAKER_14]: Wow.
[01:58:15.130 --> 01:58:17.030]  [SPEAKER_14]: Uh, convenient, isn't it?
[01:58:17.530 --> 01:58:20.730]  [SPEAKER_14]: Now, if this show was on at midnight, we'd really be, uh, in bad shape.
[01:58:21.390 --> 01:58:23.990]  [SPEAKER_14]: Uh, well, thanks for, uh, for sharing that with us.
[01:58:24.090 --> 01:58:28.310]  [SPEAKER_14]: I mean, that's something I, I really, you know, hadn't been thinking of, the plight of these people.
[01:58:28.710 --> 01:58:28.930]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[01:58:28.950 --> 01:58:32.630]  [SPEAKER_02]: Mark, I'll send some books there, and hopefully a couple of them will make it through.
[01:58:32.870 --> 01:58:33.650]  [SPEAKER_02]: Great, thanks a lot.
[01:58:33.870 --> 01:58:34.570]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, and share them.
[01:58:34.710 --> 01:58:35.670]  [SPEAKER_14]: Share them with the people there.
[01:58:35.670 --> 01:58:36.210]  [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, definitely.
[01:58:36.690 --> 01:58:38.550]  [SPEAKER_14]: And, uh, we'll be back again next week.
[01:58:38.650 --> 01:58:41.130]  [SPEAKER_14]: Hopefully we'll hear from Mark again, uh, as well.
[01:58:41.890 --> 01:58:47.690]  [SPEAKER_14]: Uh, and those of you that want to write to Mark, again, the address, Mark Abene, A-B-E-N-E-3-2-1-0-9-0-5-4.
[01:58:47.870 --> 01:58:48.650]  [SPEAKER_14]: That's your new name.
[01:58:49.270 --> 01:58:52.050]  [SPEAKER_14]: And, uh, FPC, School Kill, Unit 1, P.O.
[01:58:52.110 --> 01:58:55.110]  [SPEAKER_14]: Box 670, Minersville, Pennsylvania, 1-7-9-5-4.
[01:58:56.290 --> 01:59:00.330]  [SPEAKER_14]: Okay, and we want to thank, uh, Steve O'Keefe from Loompanics for being with us tonight.
[01:59:00.670 --> 01:59:03.130]  [SPEAKER_14]: And again, uh, I think there's still some left.
[01:59:03.130 --> 01:59:06.570]  [SPEAKER_14]: For up to $1,342 total pledges, which is very good.
[01:59:06.650 --> 01:59:08.410]  [SPEAKER_14]: And I'm, I'm very happy to see that number.
[01:59:08.550 --> 01:59:09.550]  [SPEAKER_14]: Thanks to everybody who called in.
[01:59:09.550 --> 01:59:16.010]  [SPEAKER_14]: Uh, if there are any left, I think there are some left, um, people can call in now, 212-279-3400.
[01:59:16.630 --> 01:59:18.630]  [SPEAKER_14]: And, um, we'll work it out for you.
[01:59:18.770 --> 01:59:24.190]  [SPEAKER_14]: Again, anybody who calls in to pledge will get a Loompanics catalog, which in itself is, is worth the pledge.
[01:59:24.390 --> 01:59:28.730]  [SPEAKER_14]: Because, uh, you'll just be inspired by all the different, uh, uh, titles there.
[01:59:28.850 --> 01:59:30.390]  [SPEAKER_14]: And you'll, you'll realize that there is hope.
[01:59:30.590 --> 01:59:32.710]  [SPEAKER_14]: There, there is hope for intelligent thinking people.
[01:59:32.710 --> 01:59:37.510]  [SPEAKER_14]: And, uh, and, and different ideas that maybe aren't allowed in, in lots of places.
[01:59:38.030 --> 01:59:40.350]  [SPEAKER_14]: So, Steve, thank you very much for, for your generosity.
[01:59:40.510 --> 01:59:41.110]  [SPEAKER_14]: Oh, we've lost Mark.
[01:59:41.230 --> 01:59:41.710]  [SPEAKER_14]: Mark is gone.
[01:59:41.830 --> 01:59:41.930]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[01:59:42.510 --> 01:59:43.990]  [SPEAKER_14]: Uh, too bad I couldn't say goodbye to him.
[01:59:44.150 --> 01:59:47.570]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, it really, you know, sometimes these topics are tough to talk about.
[01:59:47.730 --> 01:59:54.910]  [SPEAKER_02]: But at the same time, it's so much more interesting than the crap that you see on TV or, or some pre-digested conversation.
[01:59:54.910 --> 02:00:02.350]  [SPEAKER_14]: So, yeah, I'll tell you, I'm, I'm pretty depressed right now after going through all this, but, uh, you know, it's, it's worth it because we needed this.
[02:00:02.450 --> 02:00:04.690]  [SPEAKER_14]: We really needed to see what's, what's going on out there.
[02:00:04.790 --> 02:00:11.290]  [SPEAKER_14]: And, uh, you know, hopefully, uh, it'll have a happy ending in the end, but, uh, it's, it's going to be, it's going to be hard to get there.
[02:00:11.390 --> 02:00:23.910]  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, well, that's why people need to support vehicles for free speech like your station and, uh, you know, Loompanics and, and just people like Phiber Optik who are, are victims of a political process, so.
[02:00:24.910 --> 02:00:26.970]  [SPEAKER_14]: Again, Steve, thank you very much for being a part of this.
[02:00:27.250 --> 02:00:30.410]  [SPEAKER_14]: We're out of time, and, uh, we'll be back again next week.
[02:00:30.650 --> 02:00:31.450]  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, thanks.
[02:00:31.670 --> 02:00:32.690]  [SPEAKER_14]: Stay tuned for Robert Knight.
[02:00:32.890 --> 02:00:34.590]  [SPEAKER_14]: This is WBAI, New York.