Off The Hook - 1994-11-02

[00:08.200 --> 00:13.980]  [SPEAKER_35]: And it is 10 o'clock, or close enough, time for Off the Hook here on WBAI New York.
[01:22.880 --> 01:24.520]  [SPEAKER_35]: And a very good evening to everyone.
[01:24.520 --> 01:26.120]  [SPEAKER_35]: This is Off the Hook.
[01:26.340 --> 01:43.080]  [SPEAKER_35]: I'm Emmanuel Goldstein, and we're together every week at this time, from 10 to 11, talking about the newest in high technology and the telephone system, the Internet, and privacy concerns, and all kinds of hacker issues.
[01:43.080 --> 01:47.580]  [SPEAKER_35]: Don't forget the hacker meeting this Friday at the CitiCorp Center from 5 p.m. to 8 p.m.
[01:49.260 --> 01:56.620]  [SPEAKER_35]: Just follow all the security guards, and we're usually hanging out by the payphones, talking to people all over the world sometimes.
[01:57.260 --> 01:58.880]  [SPEAKER_35]: And most of them call us, by the way.
[02:00.600 --> 02:06.360]  [SPEAKER_35]: A couple of interesting news items that I'm sure people here would like to know about.
[02:06.480 --> 02:10.240]  [SPEAKER_35]: Well, I don't know if you'd like to know about it so much, but you should know about it.
[02:11.060 --> 02:16.340]  [SPEAKER_35]: All Californians may soon have to carry tamper-proof ID cards to prove they are U.S. citizens.
[02:17.860 --> 02:18.880]  [SPEAKER_35]: I'm not kidding.
[02:19.440 --> 02:21.500]  [SPEAKER_35]: That's if the state's political leaders have their way.
[02:21.680 --> 02:31.240]  [SPEAKER_35]: Republican Governor Pete Wilson, who has built his re-election campaign on a call for a crackdown on illegal immigration, has raised the issue once again.
[02:31.240 --> 02:40.540]  [SPEAKER_35]: He said a tamper-proof identification card will be necessary if Proposition 187 is approved by California voters on November 8.
[02:41.160 --> 02:42.400]  [SPEAKER_35]: That's next Tuesday.
[02:42.680 --> 02:57.980]  [SPEAKER_35]: So, if this concerns you and you want to contact all your friends and maybe make some new friends in California and let them know that Proposition 187 is not cool, then maybe now is the time to do so.
[02:58.260 --> 03:00.020]  [SPEAKER_35]: Because next Tuesday, people will vote on it.
[03:00.040 --> 03:03.700]  [SPEAKER_35]: And if they pass this, who knows?
[03:03.740 --> 03:04.940]  [SPEAKER_35]: Who knows what it's going to lead to?
[03:04.940 --> 03:22.880]  [SPEAKER_35]: But California, supposedly, will be one of the first states to have this mandatory identification card that will prove that people are not those pesky aliens that need to be driven out at all costs, even costs to our privacy and freedom.
[03:23.680 --> 03:27.620]  [SPEAKER_35]: Speaking of privacy and freedom, it leads us to prisons.
[03:28.260 --> 03:34.880]  [SPEAKER_35]: And do you know, this is something that I'm sure Phiber Optik will take an interest in because he helped contribute to it.
[03:35.040 --> 03:44.200]  [SPEAKER_35]: The nation's state and federal prison population has topped 1 million for the first time in history, hitting 1,012,851 at the end of June.
[03:45.260 --> 03:49.080]  [SPEAKER_35]: Everyone in prison at that time gets a special certificate because they were part of this.
[03:49.520 --> 03:59.880]  [SPEAKER_35]: Of the total, 919,143 were in state prisons and 93,708 were in federal prisons, according to Justice Department statistics.
[03:59.880 --> 04:08.520]  [SPEAKER_35]: The total is more than double the 462,002 prison population of December 31, 1984.
[04:09.260 --> 04:11.260]  [SPEAKER_35]: They doubled it in 10 years.
[04:11.520 --> 04:12.280]  [SPEAKER_35]: Less than 10 years.
[04:12.540 --> 04:14.080]  [SPEAKER_35]: At this rate...
[04:14.900 --> 04:16.300]  [SPEAKER_35]: I don't want to think about it.
[04:16.660 --> 04:19.880]  [SPEAKER_35]: Anyway, the state with the highest incarceration rate...
[04:21.260 --> 04:21.780]  [SPEAKER_35]: Guess.
[04:22.000 --> 04:22.680]  [SPEAKER_35]: Anyone want to guess?
[04:23.080 --> 04:24.260]  [SPEAKER_35]: No, it's not Pennsylvania.
[04:24.260 --> 04:32.360]  [SPEAKER_35]: It's Texas with 545 people sentenced for every 100,000 residents.
[04:32.840 --> 04:34.620]  [SPEAKER_35]: New York was number 6.
[04:34.900 --> 04:38.260]  [SPEAKER_35]: We have 361 people behind bars for every 100,000 people.
[04:40.160 --> 04:42.180]  [SPEAKER_35]: What are we heading towards?
[04:42.180 --> 04:43.180]  [SPEAKER_35]: I don't know.
[04:43.400 --> 04:44.760]  [SPEAKER_35]: I don't know where we're going.
[04:46.220 --> 04:46.940]  [SPEAKER_35]: Okay.
[04:47.980 --> 04:50.300]  [SPEAKER_35]: We're going to be talking about digital telephony tonight.
[04:50.780 --> 04:53.180]  [SPEAKER_35]: And we'll be getting to that in just a moment.
[04:55.420 --> 04:56.660]  [SPEAKER_35]: First couple of announcements.
[04:56.860 --> 05:08.740]  [SPEAKER_35]: The Chaos Communications Congress, organized by the Chaos Computer Club and traditionally taking place between Christmas and New Year's, will this year again be offering a lot of interesting issues for the hitchhikers on the data highway and everybody else.
[05:09.380 --> 05:16.680]  [SPEAKER_35]: After taking place in Hamburg for 10 years, this year the Congress opens itself in terms of both content and structure to a larger public.
[05:16.680 --> 05:27.640]  [SPEAKER_35]: It will be held in the former Art Exhibition Hall right in the center of Berlin City on Breitscheidplatz opposite the thing with the German name.
[05:27.780 --> 05:38.880]  [SPEAKER_35]: Now that computers have turned out to be the most important new medium, questions of conception of this new medium, which will even overtake TV in importance, that's right, are gaining more and more social relevance.
[05:39.080 --> 05:47.500]  [SPEAKER_35]: Terms such as interactive TV should contain much more than just a buy button on the remote control, which persuades you to buy any product you see in the commercials.
[05:47.760 --> 05:49.420]  [SPEAKER_35]: To achieve this, visions are needed.
[05:49.760 --> 06:07.320]  [SPEAKER_35]: Thanks to their self-created, freely accessible computer networks, which can offer a lot more speaking of interactivity, the hackers do not only reach the children's rooms in the information society, but also get into difficulties caused by large combines that are more and more regarding the networks as a field of activity.
[06:08.000 --> 06:13.440]  [SPEAKER_35]: The industry is tending to lay a direct glass-fiber connection right into our wallets in the commercialization of information.
[06:15.320 --> 06:24.740]  [SPEAKER_35]: Information ways involved threatens organizations that have a social interest, such as environmental or human rights organizations, parties, or trade unions whose aims are not in the first place financial ones.
[06:24.800 --> 06:26.380]  [SPEAKER_35]: Well, it goes on for quite some time, actually.
[06:28.760 --> 06:42.880]  [SPEAKER_35]: To keep the Congress as easy to understand as possible in terms of technical jargon, there will be introductory workshops on some issues, that is, the Internet, the Hack Center and the data-filling stations in every room will be offering the possibility of critical and creative use of technology.
[06:44.100 --> 06:55.820]  [SPEAKER_35]: It's happening December 27th through the 29th in Berlin, and they have prices for various combinations.
[06:55.820 --> 07:06.340]  [SPEAKER_35]: If you're there for three days, it costs 42 Deutschmarks, which I think is about $42 now, if the dollar continues to do what it's been doing over the last few years.
[07:07.140 --> 07:11.960]  [SPEAKER_35]: If you're a member of the Chaos Communications Club, it would be 23 Deutschmarks.
[07:12.740 --> 07:16.020]  [SPEAKER_35]: And if you're a journalist, it jumps up to 75 Deutschmarks.
[07:16.260 --> 07:18.280]  [SPEAKER_35]: And if you're a commercial in any way, it's 100.
[07:19.040 --> 07:26.560]  [SPEAKER_35]: And if you're just there for one day, 20 Deutschmarks for regular people, 12 for pupils and unemployed persons.
[07:27.140 --> 07:36.840]  [SPEAKER_35]: Anyway, if you want to call them up, you can reach them at 011, country code 49, city code 40, telephone number 490-3757.
[07:38.680 --> 07:42.220]  [SPEAKER_35]: And I would give you an email address, except I don't see one here.
[07:42.600 --> 07:45.200]  [SPEAKER_35]: If we get one, we'll certainly pass it along.
[07:45.880 --> 07:53.020]  [SPEAKER_35]: Chaos, this is the 11th Chaos Communications Congress, again, taking place December 27th through 29th in Berlin.
[07:54.000 --> 07:56.000]  [SPEAKER_35]: So, that ought to be interesting.
[07:56.160 --> 08:00.220]  [SPEAKER_35]: I've never been to one of those, so I don't really know what to expect as far as that kind of thing goes.
[08:00.500 --> 08:01.040]  [SPEAKER_35]: Who knows?
[08:01.040 --> 08:03.480]  [SPEAKER_35]: It might be Hopin' German.
[08:04.920 --> 08:05.640]  [SPEAKER_35]: Quite possible.
[08:06.720 --> 08:07.120]  [SPEAKER_35]: All right.
[08:08.420 --> 08:16.980]  [SPEAKER_35]: Before we get on to our discussion tonight as to digital telephony, what it means to all of us, we have a responsibility.
[08:18.000 --> 08:19.720]  [SPEAKER_35]: Now, first of all, a couple of things.
[08:20.060 --> 08:22.960]  [SPEAKER_35]: A couple of good bits of news.
[08:24.480 --> 08:27.980]  [SPEAKER_35]: WBAI listeners, as we have said many, many times, have power.
[08:28.260 --> 08:28.860]  [SPEAKER_35]: That's right.
[08:28.940 --> 08:35.260]  [SPEAKER_35]: We have lots and lots of power tied up in our big or little hands or what have you.
[08:35.600 --> 08:36.960]  [SPEAKER_35]: We can get things changed.
[08:36.960 --> 08:40.880]  [SPEAKER_35]: We can get things done in all kinds of marvelous ways.
[08:42.060 --> 08:44.660]  [SPEAKER_35]: And that has happened yet again.
[08:45.580 --> 08:46.120]  [SPEAKER_35]: That's right.
[08:46.140 --> 08:49.340]  [SPEAKER_35]: A few weeks ago, we revealed a scandal.
[08:50.080 --> 08:59.080]  [SPEAKER_35]: The scandal was that a certain company was giving out information that perhaps they really shouldn't have given out.
[09:03.300 --> 09:15.060]  [SPEAKER_35]: The information basically is that people's names, not names, actually, addresses, were given out if you gave their phone numbers by calling up for this House of Windsor catalog.
[09:15.280 --> 09:16.820]  [SPEAKER_35]: Well, that has changed.
[09:16.820 --> 09:17.980]  [SPEAKER_35]: The number is still there.
[09:18.520 --> 09:24.860]  [SPEAKER_35]: The number is still there, but when you call it, it does not give out the street address anymore.
[09:24.880 --> 09:27.720]  [SPEAKER_35]: It gives out the street, but not the full street address.
[09:28.440 --> 09:32.500]  [SPEAKER_35]: And that's something that has to be attributed to people calling and complaining.
[09:33.500 --> 09:36.800]  [SPEAKER_35]: It's not 100% of the way there, but it's getting there.
[09:37.060 --> 09:37.840]  [SPEAKER_35]: It's getting there.
[09:37.980 --> 09:47.320]  [SPEAKER_35]: When they don't give out this information at all for anybody calling in with your phone number, then I think we will have succeeded in stopping this kind of invasion of privacy.
[09:47.640 --> 09:49.520]  [SPEAKER_35]: Worked for even unlisted phone numbers.
[09:49.580 --> 09:53.440]  [SPEAKER_35]: All you had to have was someone's phone number, and you were able to get their address.
[09:54.300 --> 09:58.300]  [SPEAKER_35]: Well, now you're just able to get their street, but that's still a little bit too much.
[09:59.000 --> 10:05.900]  [SPEAKER_35]: Also, from what I've heard, if you call the number more than three times from the same phone line, it will no longer work from that phone line.
[10:05.960 --> 10:09.740]  [SPEAKER_35]: That's something that I have not yet verified, but I have heard that that is true.
[10:10.000 --> 10:11.440]  [SPEAKER_35]: So that's something you might want to consider.
[10:12.040 --> 10:20.660]  [SPEAKER_35]: Again, the number is 1-800-433-3210, and that is for the House of Windsor catalog.
[10:20.900 --> 10:28.340]  [SPEAKER_35]: By the way, every time you enter somebody's phone number, they will get a big red glossy catalog in the mail, so you might want to watch that.
[10:29.160 --> 10:47.060]  [SPEAKER_35]: Okay, and as far as other rip-off services, ripping off either your privacy or your money, we've been talking over the past several weeks about 1-800-CALL-INFO, the MCI service, that charges 75 cents if you ask for a number.
[10:47.300 --> 11:05.320]  [SPEAKER_35]: Now, it's okay to offer services, no one is objecting to that, but when you make an 800 number automatically bill back when somebody asks for a certain question, it's basically duplicating a 900 number, and it really shouldn't be an 800 number if it's doing the exact same thing as a 900 number.
[11:05.500 --> 11:11.420]  [SPEAKER_35]: And what this does is make people hesitate when they see an 800 number.
[11:11.580 --> 11:17.120]  [SPEAKER_35]: They don't know if they're going to be billed, if they ask a certain question or if they perform a certain function.
[11:18.020 --> 11:25.140]  [SPEAKER_35]: And it's basically devaluing the whole 800 service for every company, every person that has an 800 number.
[11:25.480 --> 11:33.420]  [SPEAKER_35]: That's another reason why people should be very upset at this, apart from the consumer reason that you're getting charged for something that you really shouldn't be charged for.
[11:33.420 --> 11:37.020]  [SPEAKER_35]: people install 900 blocks so that this kind of thing does not happen.
[11:37.620 --> 11:41.740]  [SPEAKER_35]: Companies like MCI come in and bypass it by putting it on an 800 number.
[11:41.880 --> 11:50.000]  [SPEAKER_35]: And, on top of that, the worst of all, when they have these little advertisements on television, they don't even say what company they are.
[11:50.220 --> 11:51.720]  [SPEAKER_35]: They don't say that it's MCI.
[11:51.800 --> 11:52.900]  [SPEAKER_35]: Well, we say it's MCI.
[11:53.780 --> 11:59.140]  [SPEAKER_35]: One thing, though, last week we called them and we got them to tell us what time it was in Pensacola, Florida.
[11:59.640 --> 12:02.500]  [SPEAKER_35]: And we noted that the time was an hour off from our time.
[12:02.500 --> 12:13.040]  [SPEAKER_35]: At first, we thought that was their mistake, but I have done some research into this, and it turns out, really fascinating actually, that Pensacola is as far west as Chicago, so therefore it's in the central time zone.
[12:13.480 --> 12:20.980]  [SPEAKER_35]: So, yes, MCI was correct in giving us the time, and they also saved us 36 cents from calling the time locally.
[12:21.340 --> 12:39.860]  [SPEAKER_35]: So, you can use this service for some things, but I don't suggest using it very often for information, as it costs the exact same amount as regular information and the advertising practices they use are a bit, well, deceiving is a gentle way of saying it.
[12:40.480 --> 12:46.640]  [SPEAKER_35]: Let's give them a call now, as we will do virtually every week, I think, and I think a lot of people should call them too, just to see how they are.
[13:05.100 --> 13:09.220]  [SPEAKER_03]: 1-800-CALL-INFO director of assistance for only 75 cents.
[13:09.440 --> 13:10.740]  [SPEAKER_03]: How would you like to bill your call?
[13:11.420 --> 13:13.300]  [SPEAKER_35]: Actually, I was curious about something.
[13:13.460 --> 13:17.240]  [SPEAKER_35]: You also connect calls after you give out the phone number?
[13:17.240 --> 13:18.170]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, we do.
[13:18.380 --> 13:20.860]  [SPEAKER_35]: At what rate would I pay for that?
[13:21.200 --> 13:25.740]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, sir, if you want specific rate information, I'll have to transfer you to customer service.
[13:26.380 --> 13:27.720]  [SPEAKER_35]: Customer service of what company?
[13:28.680 --> 13:29.060]  [SPEAKER_03]: MCI.
[13:29.260 --> 13:30.480]  [SPEAKER_35]: Oh, so this is actually MCI?
[13:30.640 --> 13:32.100]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, this is MCI product.
[13:32.620 --> 13:34.860]  [SPEAKER_35]: Okay, because I didn't see that in the advertisement anywhere.
[13:35.170 --> 13:35.540]  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[13:35.790 --> 13:36.000]  [SPEAKER_03]: All right.
[13:36.220 --> 13:36.820]  [SPEAKER_35]: Well, you know what?
[13:36.820 --> 13:38.140]  [SPEAKER_35]: I think I'll try back a little...
[13:38.140 --> 13:39.000]  [SPEAKER_35]: What time do you have
[13:47.760 --> 13:48.920]  [SPEAKER_35]: You're in Pensacola, right?
[13:49.140 --> 13:49.420]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
[13:49.640 --> 13:49.860]  [SPEAKER_35]: Okay.
[13:50.120 --> 13:50.790]  [SPEAKER_35]: Well, you know what?
[13:50.820 --> 13:55.200]  [SPEAKER_35]: I'm going to call back probably later on tonight close to midnight and then I'll have a little bit more time to chat.
[13:55.620 --> 13:56.240]  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, sir.
[13:56.420 --> 13:56.600]  [SPEAKER_35]: Okay.
[13:56.700 --> 13:57.880]  [SPEAKER_35]: Well, thanks very much for being there.
[13:58.180 --> 13:59.960]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, thank you for using 1-800-CALL-INFO.
[14:00.140 --> 14:00.290]  [SPEAKER_35]: Okay.
[14:00.410 --> 14:00.640]  [SPEAKER_35]: Good night.
[14:00.920 --> 14:01.290]  [SPEAKER_03]: Good night.
[14:02.340 --> 14:03.500]  [SPEAKER_35]: Yeah, well, that was nice.
[14:03.680 --> 14:07.910]  [SPEAKER_35]: We had a little fun with them and they were very friendly to us.
[14:08.360 --> 14:14.340]  [SPEAKER_35]: Okay, well, I just think we're adding such community to the whole phone system here.
[14:14.640 --> 14:19.060]  [SPEAKER_35]: And it's an 800 number, so I don't ever have to worry about being billed for that now, do I?
[14:19.880 --> 14:21.220]  [SPEAKER_35]: Okay, digital telephony.
[14:21.220 --> 14:22.880]  [SPEAKER_35]: That's the serious subject for tonight.
[14:25.040 --> 14:26.080]  [SPEAKER_35]: It's past.
[14:26.100 --> 14:27.920]  [SPEAKER_35]: It's something that has happened.
[14:28.060 --> 14:31.460]  [SPEAKER_35]: We've been talking about this for, I guess, a year now or so.
[14:32.200 --> 14:52.380]  [SPEAKER_35]: It's basically a rather forbidding law that requires manufacturers of phone systems, central offices, PBXs, that kind of thing, to install mechanisms that make it easier for law enforcement to tap into the system.
[14:53.980 --> 15:06.700]  [SPEAKER_35]: As far as what specifically was what was passed and what was not passed, we're going to ask our expert guest tonight, Dave Vannisar from Epic, Electronic Privacy Information Center.
[15:06.940 --> 15:07.790]  [SPEAKER_35]: Dave, are you there?
[15:08.140 --> 15:08.740]  [SPEAKER_22]: I am.
[15:08.860 --> 15:09.320]  [SPEAKER_22]: How are you doing?
[15:09.600 --> 15:09.960]  [SPEAKER_35]: Pretty good.
[15:10.040 --> 15:14.420]  [SPEAKER_35]: You're down there in Washington, D.C., or actually somewhere else, in the burbs.
[15:14.620 --> 15:15.410]  [SPEAKER_35]: Okay, in the burbs.
[15:16.410 --> 15:19.120]  [SPEAKER_35]: What exactly was passed and what wasn't passed?
[15:19.220 --> 15:21.820]  [SPEAKER_35]: Is this as bad as it was when they first introduced it?
[15:22.040 --> 15:23.000]  [SPEAKER_35]: Or should we be happy?
[15:23.120 --> 15:23.740]  [SPEAKER_35]: Should we be sad?
[15:23.840 --> 15:23.920]  [SPEAKER_35]: What?
[15:24.800 --> 15:36.800]  [SPEAKER_22]: Well, to go into my Ross Perot imitation, you can take a big old ugly hog and you can put a wig on it, you can put a dress on it, you can even put some makeup on it, but it's still a big old ugly hog.
[15:37.460 --> 15:38.560]  [SPEAKER_35]: I see your point.
[15:39.260 --> 15:51.170]  [SPEAKER_22]: So, this is basically the same bill that they've been, they being the FBI, has been asking for for a couple years now, but it's, you know, it's got some window dressing on it now.
[15:51.480 --> 15:58.380]  [SPEAKER_22]: They've tried to make it sound like they've compromised, but they basically get the same things that they've been asking for all along.
[15:59.900 --> 16:03.910]  [SPEAKER_35]: Now, what's some of the window dressing that might have changed that could have fooled people?
[16:05.010 --> 16:18.320]  [SPEAKER_22]: Well, they've put some what they want to call privacy protections on it, but if you actually look at them and read the text of the bill rather than certain press releases, they don't look that great after all.
[16:19.270 --> 16:21.300]  [SPEAKER_22]: Frankly, they're rather trivial.
[16:22.670 --> 16:23.760]  [SPEAKER_35]: Anything specific?
[16:24.170 --> 16:47.460]  [SPEAKER_22]: Well, they've put some restrictions on collecting records from online services, but if you read the actual text of the bill, it still requires, it still allows the police to pretty much get access to anything they want with a subpoena, and then they have to go up to a really weak warrant provision to get the rest of the information.
[16:48.040 --> 16:56.640]  [SPEAKER_22]: But they can still find out who you are, they can find out how long you've been on, what your information is, perhaps even who you've been talking to.
[16:57.030 --> 16:59.670]  [SPEAKER_35]: Now, could they not have found that out in the past?
[17:00.720 --> 17:02.820]  [SPEAKER_22]: Well, it depended on the service provider.
[17:02.820 --> 17:13.120]  [SPEAKER_22]: The one I used down here had rules that said that they couldn't get anything from, the police couldn't get anything without a court order.
[17:14.080 --> 17:20.600]  [SPEAKER_22]: And this lowers that to a subpoena, which is anything a government bureaucrat can ask for.
[17:20.800 --> 17:25.400]  [SPEAKER_22]: When I was working for the public defender's office about five years ago, I could send out subpoenas.
[17:25.960 --> 17:26.340]  [SPEAKER_35]: Uh-huh.
[17:26.420 --> 17:28.940]  [SPEAKER_35]: So it's that much easier now for them to do that.
[17:29.120 --> 17:29.380]  [SPEAKER_22]: Right.
[17:29.380 --> 17:31.800]  [SPEAKER_35]: Now, tell us something about the history of this law.
[17:31.940 --> 17:34.940]  [SPEAKER_35]: Where was it introduced and what finally happened?
[17:35.480 --> 17:38.500]  [SPEAKER_22]: Uh, well, this has been around for about three years now.
[17:38.740 --> 17:43.720]  [SPEAKER_22]: Uh, it started out, uh, the first, uh, the first bill was, uh, in 1991.
[17:44.900 --> 17:48.460]  [SPEAKER_22]: And it, uh, really more dealt with the encryption side of things.
[17:48.660 --> 17:52.660]  [SPEAKER_22]: But it had basically the same wording in some of its provisions.
[17:52.660 --> 18:00.400]  [SPEAKER_22]: Uh, that one was rejected after, uh, a large number of people called up and screamed and yelled at their congressman.
[18:00.620 --> 18:03.400]  [SPEAKER_35]: Well, what wasn't the original reason why people were so upset?
[18:03.420 --> 18:06.300]  [SPEAKER_35]: Because, uh, they said that the taxpayers would have to fund this?
[18:06.640 --> 18:09.860]  [SPEAKER_22]: Uh, well, the bill in 91 didn't have anything one way or the other.
[18:10.120 --> 18:25.860]  [SPEAKER_22]: But, uh, there was a general consensus that the way it was written, it would have, uh, required that all the phone companies and telecommunications companies decrypt all communications that went through their systems, which means they would have had to prohibit private encryption systems.
[18:26.580 --> 18:27.300]  [SPEAKER_35]: I see.
[18:27.490 --> 18:38.290]  [SPEAKER_22]: Um, the 92 bill died because, uh, because basically it would have, uh, been paid for by higher rates on telephone systems.
[18:39.530 --> 18:42.100]  [SPEAKER_35]: And that was the main reason why it died, because of that?
[18:42.290 --> 18:43.600]  [SPEAKER_22]: Well, there was a lot of reasons.
[18:43.860 --> 19:00.660]  [SPEAKER_22]: I mean, there was obviously all the privacy reasons, and the phone companies were none too interested in rewiring all the systems at their own expense, and then hoping that the public utility commissions would allow them to raise their rates, um, which is one of the reasons why it passed this time.
[19:00.970 --> 19:10.920]  [SPEAKER_22]: Uh, one of the deals that was cut in the end on this bill was that the phone companies got a half billion dollars worth of taxpayer money to be able to rewire their systems.
[19:11.680 --> 19:18.040]  [SPEAKER_22]: Um, and, uh, well, there's a few other reasons, but, uh, that's one of the main ones.
[19:18.730 --> 19:18.800]  [SPEAKER_35]: Uh-huh.
[19:18.940 --> 19:20.010]  [SPEAKER_35]: So, now we're up to 92.
[19:20.010 --> 19:20.990]  [SPEAKER_35]: What happened in 93?
[19:21.800 --> 19:33.530]  [SPEAKER_22]: Uh, in 93, uh, when Clinton came in, apparently the first thing that the FBI people were saying was that they wanted to make this their number one legislative proposal.
[19:34.250 --> 19:39.510]  [SPEAKER_22]: Uh, they waited until about November or so, and then they started talking about it seriously.
[19:39.880 --> 19:43.440]  [SPEAKER_22]: And then when 94 came around, they actually introduced a bill.
[19:43.440 --> 19:48.380]  [SPEAKER_22]: Uh, this time around they, uh, they got some people to help them out.
[19:48.660 --> 19:54.040]  [SPEAKER_22]: They, uh, they, uh, convinced a couple senators that this was a good thing.
[19:54.770 --> 20:04.540]  [SPEAKER_22]: And, uh, eventually our friends at the Electronic Frontier Foundation rolled over and, uh, decided to join them in supporting this bill.
[20:04.990 --> 20:11.030]  [SPEAKER_35]: That's something that's been a topic, uh, all over the net as to just why the EFF did that.
[20:11.270 --> 20:12.840]  [SPEAKER_35]: Any, any, any suspicions?
[20:13.420 --> 20:19.200]  [SPEAKER_22]: Well, I, I think one of the, uh, reasons is sort of, uh, what we would call Washington-itis.
[20:19.920 --> 20:27.660]  [SPEAKER_22]: It's, uh, propensity for a, uh, somebody to come into town and want to become a big player here in the Washington scene.
[20:28.140 --> 20:38.680]  [SPEAKER_22]: Uh, ever since they fired their entire staff and, well, except for Mike Godwin and, and moved down to, uh, D.C., they just have not been the same organization.
[20:39.230 --> 20:46.040]  [SPEAKER_22]: Uh, these days, their entire funding, except for some money that K-POR gives them comes from industry.
[20:46.360 --> 20:49.040]  [SPEAKER_22]: So they're basically a trade association now.
[20:49.560 --> 20:53.680]  [SPEAKER_35]: And they're probably not in much danger of being called a, a hacker defense organization anymore.
[20:53.940 --> 20:56.580]  [SPEAKER_22]: I don't think there's any threat of that happening.
[20:56.920 --> 20:57.010]  [SPEAKER_35]: No.
[20:57.230 --> 21:00.560]  [SPEAKER_22]: Except maybe in a couple, uh, press releases that they send out.
[21:00.940 --> 21:01.230]  [SPEAKER_35]: Uh-huh.
[21:01.640 --> 21:04.300]  [SPEAKER_22]: They want to make it look like they're still a good guy.
[21:04.300 --> 21:06.100]  [SPEAKER_35]: So, who opposed this?
[21:06.530 --> 21:19.400]  [SPEAKER_22]: Well, um, we worked very hard against it, and we worked closely with, uh, voters' telecom watch, which is, uh, a project that's based up by you, uh, and the Society for Electronic Access.
[21:19.920 --> 21:28.820]  [SPEAKER_22]: Uh, the American Civil Liberties Union, uh, came in and, uh, wrote a very strong letter and, and, uh, lobbied Congress very hard.
[21:28.820 --> 21:30.530]  [SPEAKER_22]: Uh, the U.S.
[21:30.660 --> 21:39.970]  [SPEAKER_22]: Privacy Council, which is a, which is sort of an overall group of a number of different privacy groups and consumer groups, uh, work to, uh, try and kill this bill.
[21:40.510 --> 21:50.530]  [SPEAKER_22]: And a lot of people, thousands of people, called, faxed, emailed their congressmen, their senators, asked them to kill this bill, and it came very close.
[21:51.180 --> 22:01.100]  [SPEAKER_35]: Well, now that, uh, election day is merely one week away, perhaps this would be a good time to, um, to mention some of the people that may have supported it or, or not supported it.
[22:01.400 --> 22:12.060]  [SPEAKER_22]: Uh, well, one of the problems is, is when they passed the thing in the middle of the night a couple weeks ago, they passed it without taking an actual vote about who voted for it and who voted against it.
[22:12.460 --> 22:20.320]  [SPEAKER_22]: So, basically, they, they got through the process without leaving any fingerprints, for the most part, on, uh, on who did what.
[22:20.660 --> 22:22.660]  [SPEAKER_35]: They, they can pass bills without taking votes?
[22:22.900 --> 22:32.700]  [SPEAKER_22]: Well, uh, they can if, uh, they do something called suspension of the rules in the house, which is basically how they passed just about everything that ever passes over there.
[22:33.300 --> 22:46.040]  [SPEAKER_22]: Uh, if not more than one-third of the, uh, of the Congress opposes the bill, they don't take a, uh, they take a voice vote, but not a written vote on who, uh, on the, uh, vote.
[22:46.300 --> 22:49.760]  [SPEAKER_22]: And a, uh, there's a similar measure that happened in the Senate.
[22:50.220 --> 22:54.340]  [SPEAKER_35]: Well, no, there must be some leaders, though, that have spoken out against it.
[22:54.340 --> 22:59.960]  [SPEAKER_22]: Um, there was a number of people who, uh, at one point or another, were opposing the bill.
[23:00.260 --> 23:09.680]  [SPEAKER_22]: Uh, Senator, uh, Warner from Texas, or from, uh, Virginia, Senator Wallop from, uh, Wyoming, uh, Senator Metzenbaum from Ohio.
[23:09.680 --> 23:14.340]  [SPEAKER_22]: They all, at one point, uh, were holding up the bill from being passed.
[23:14.920 --> 23:15.200]  [SPEAKER_15]: Mm-hmm.
[23:15.360 --> 23:25.900]  [SPEAKER_22]: Um, Congressman Brooks for a while looked like he was opposing the bill, but, uh, eventually he, uh, rolled over and, uh, and shoved the thing through on the House side.
[23:26.220 --> 23:28.400]  [SPEAKER_35]: Do you know anything about, uh, New York representatives?
[23:30.580 --> 23:31.540]  [SPEAKER_22]: No, I don't.
[23:32.260 --> 23:32.560]  [SPEAKER_35]: Uh-huh.
[23:32.780 --> 23:34.760]  [SPEAKER_35]: And it would be kind of hard to find out, wouldn't it?
[23:35.100 --> 23:43.220]  [SPEAKER_22]: Um, yeah, I, as far as I know, neither of the senators played, uh, any kind of role in the, in the bill one way or the other.
[23:45.480 --> 23:45.880]  [SPEAKER_35]: Wow.
[23:46.080 --> 23:48.980]  [SPEAKER_35]: So, now, what does this mean to the average person?
[23:49.160 --> 23:52.760]  [SPEAKER_35]: I mean, someone who, who doesn't have anything to hide, why should they be concerned?
[23:54.720 --> 23:59.000]  [SPEAKER_22]: Um, well, I mean, that's always a question about privacy.
[23:59.340 --> 24:02.740]  [SPEAKER_22]: You know, why should you worry about it if you don't have anything to hide?
[24:02.940 --> 24:20.280]  [SPEAKER_22]: But, uh, you know, I don't remember the last, last time somebody was pleased about seeing their, say, their medical records on the front page of the New York Times, or the, or their consumer records used by some clown who decides to buy himself a house down in Florida using your good credit rating.
[24:20.720 --> 24:37.060]  [SPEAKER_22]: Um, there are a lot of reasons for privacy, a lot of, uh, of basic human needs to, to have what you want known about yourself limited to the people that you want to know about.
[24:37.580 --> 24:51.360]  [SPEAKER_22]: And this bill is basically one step, and, and a somewhat small step, but still a step towards designing all new technologies with surveillance built in.
[24:51.800 --> 25:02.660]  [SPEAKER_22]: And the point of all this at some point is going to be a sort of enforced compliance of, uh, sort of like political correctness is now on a much bigger scale.
[25:03.450 --> 25:10.460]  [SPEAKER_35]: So, now, technically, um, any, any new phone system that is designed has to have something built in?
[25:10.840 --> 25:11.400]  [SPEAKER_35]: Right.
[25:11.640 --> 25:34.120]  [SPEAKER_22]: The, the, what is supposed to happen is any standard-setting body for telecommunications, that's things like, uh, ANSI, the American National Standards Institute, uh, the TIA, any of those groups, uh, are supposed to get together among themselves and develop standards based on what the FBI wants.
[25:34.220 --> 25:47.780]  [SPEAKER_22]: And the FBI wants remote access to communications and phone number information instantaneously, uh, at remote government access centers.
[25:48.680 --> 25:53.140]  [SPEAKER_22]: And these groups are supposed to design this.
[25:53.340 --> 26:11.760]  [SPEAKER_22]: So, just like they would be designing a, uh, a new spec for how caller ID is supposed to work or how, uh, how anything else, uh, you know, call forwarding or a new service is supposed to work, they have to design everything with the specification of surveillance in the back of their heads.
[26:12.000 --> 26:15.660]  [SPEAKER_22]: And if they can't get the surveillance built in, they're going to get into trouble.
[26:16.020 --> 26:19.840]  [SPEAKER_35]: Well, do you have any idea, though, how, how this is going to actually work?
[26:19.980 --> 26:24.500]  [SPEAKER_35]: Will, will the feds be able to simply dial a special code into any phone system and be able to listen?
[26:25.140 --> 26:34.420]  [SPEAKER_22]: Uh, the way the language is written is, uh, is that they're supposed to be able to, uh, have to have a phone company person there to turn it on.
[26:34.980 --> 26:52.800]  [SPEAKER_22]: Uh, however, in some of the legislative hearings, uh, the director of the FBI, Lewis Free, was, uh, discussing about how on the smaller phone systems that they could easily design the software to make sure that nobody had to be there when they turned it on to save the phone company's money,
[26:52.840 --> 26:53.300]  [SPEAKER_22]: of course.
[26:54.720 --> 26:57.240]  [SPEAKER_35]: Yeah, okay, make everybody happier in the process.
[26:57.540 --> 26:58.980]  [SPEAKER_35]: I feel much better myself.
[27:00.020 --> 27:04.180]  [SPEAKER_35]: Dave Benassar from, uh, Electronic, uh, Privacy Information Center.
[27:04.280 --> 27:04.840]  [SPEAKER_35]: I'm getting that right.
[27:05.080 --> 27:05.360]  [SPEAKER_35]: Right.
[27:05.360 --> 27:05.860]  [SPEAKER_35]: Right, okay.
[27:06.320 --> 27:07.580]  [SPEAKER_35]: Uh, tell us something about your group.
[27:07.840 --> 27:14.760]  [SPEAKER_22]: Uh, we're, we're a, uh, public interest group, uh, based down here in the, uh, belly of the beast in Washington, D.C.
[27:15.300 --> 27:20.260]  [SPEAKER_22]: Uh, we used to be the Washington Office of, uh, Computer Professionals for Social Responsibility.
[27:20.840 --> 27:26.360]  [SPEAKER_22]: Uh, now we're a joint project of theirs and a civil liberties group called the Fund for Constitutional Government.
[27:26.700 --> 27:28.320]  [SPEAKER_35]: So there is still a CPSR.
[27:28.560 --> 27:28.980]  [SPEAKER_22]: Right.
[27:29.240 --> 27:36.420]  [SPEAKER_22]: CPSR is a California-based organization with, uh, 20-some chapters, uh, and we're still a project of theirs.
[27:36.580 --> 27:38.320]  [SPEAKER_22]: We're just not the Washington office anymore.
[27:38.620 --> 27:39.140]  [SPEAKER_35]: I see.
[27:39.320 --> 27:40.540]  [SPEAKER_35]: How can people get a hold of you?
[27:41.440 --> 27:53.720]  [SPEAKER_22]: Uh, well, you can, uh, email us at info at epic.org or, uh, we have a lot of information up at the CPSR, uh, FTP site at, uh, cpsr.org.
[27:54.740 --> 27:58.660]  [SPEAKER_35]: I'm sure there's a lot of people wringing their hair now or, uh, saying that they don't have net access.
[27:58.800 --> 27:59.700]  [SPEAKER_35]: How do they get a hold of you?
[28:00.460 --> 28:05.860]  [SPEAKER_22]: Uh, well, they can, uh, call at, uh, 202-544-9240.
[28:06.580 --> 28:06.940]  [SPEAKER_35]: Okay.
[28:07.020 --> 28:13.200]  [SPEAKER_35]: Good old-fashioned telephones that, uh, may or may not be listened to, uh, depending on whether the feds have gotten around to you yet.
[28:14.240 --> 28:22.420]  [SPEAKER_35]: Uh, it's, uh, it's pretty scary, um, and it seems to be in, in, um, in tune with a lot of other developments that are going on.
[28:22.480 --> 28:28.860]  [SPEAKER_35]: I don't know if you heard the stories we were reading before about the, uh, the California situation with the ID cards or the prison population.
[28:29.140 --> 28:30.640]  [SPEAKER_35]: Do you think this is all related somehow?
[28:32.000 --> 28:40.840]  [SPEAKER_22]: Um, well, there certainly is a, a general, um, measure towards more, uh, law and order at this moment.
[28:41.080 --> 28:46.060]  [SPEAKER_22]: The, uh, the war on drugs being the most popular thing at the moment.
[28:46.240 --> 28:49.040]  [SPEAKER_35]: Well, you don't want to be accused of being soft on crime now, do you?
[28:49.360 --> 28:53.900]  [SPEAKER_22]: Um, well, I'm not running for any office, so actually I don't have to worry about it, thankfully.
[28:54.440 --> 28:58.180]  [SPEAKER_35]: That's true, but, uh, maybe one day we'll all have to not be soft on crime.
[28:58.280 --> 29:00.180]  [SPEAKER_22]: I may regret this radio show.
[29:00.340 --> 29:02.680]  [SPEAKER_35]: Yeah, it could come back to haunt you in your political career.
[29:03.200 --> 29:03.340]  [SPEAKER_35]: Yeah.
[29:04.760 --> 29:05.160]  [SPEAKER_35]: Wow.
[29:05.420 --> 29:10.360]  [SPEAKER_22]: Um, in terms of ID cards, uh, there are certainly a lot of parallels.
[29:10.720 --> 29:28.700]  [SPEAKER_22]: Uh, there's the, uh, government Tessera program, which is to, uh, design a clipper-like chip, which will go into ID cards for secure net access, and there's been some talk in the government about using that through the postal service for a lot of other,
[29:28.900 --> 29:30.260]  [SPEAKER_22]: uh, services.
[29:30.660 --> 29:39.060]  [SPEAKER_22]: And, uh, the postal service has said several times that they'd love to be able to issue an ID card, uh, probably because they have no other reason to exist.
[29:40.120 --> 29:43.300]  [SPEAKER_22]: So, and they certainly can't deliver the mail anymore.
[29:44.260 --> 29:44.700]  [SPEAKER_35]: Yeah.
[29:45.020 --> 29:49.460]  [SPEAKER_35]: Well, now, that's, um, it's depressing, the things that we're hearing.
[29:49.980 --> 29:54.840]  [SPEAKER_35]: Do you think there's anything that, I mean, is, is the clipper chip, do you think that's the next thing that's going to go through now?
[29:56.140 --> 30:01.740]  [SPEAKER_22]: Um, well, the clipper chip was a government standard, and they've already adopted it as the standard.
[30:02.100 --> 30:05.820]  [SPEAKER_22]: Uh, the next question is whether they're going to try and make it mandatory.
[30:06.480 --> 30:17.540]  [SPEAKER_22]: And, um, shortly before the digital telephony bill passed, the director of the FBI was at a conference sponsored by everybody's friend, Dorothy Denning.
[30:17.540 --> 30:34.760]  [SPEAKER_22]: And, uh, at this conference, he was, uh, saying that if, if the clipper chip did not become a standard that everybody used, criminals included, that he would go back down to Capitol Hill in a few years and ask for legislation to make it mandatory.
[30:35.340 --> 30:51.780]  [SPEAKER_22]: Uh, there's already a bill that was introduced at the end of last session of Congress that would, uh, allow the FBI and the NSA to basically control the government crypto standard setting, uh, which is very similar to what free is asking for.
[30:52.410 --> 31:02.220]  [SPEAKER_35]: And, of course, uh, that would also, in order to be effective, would have to be, um, linked to something that would forbid, uh, your own independent form of encryption, right?
[31:02.700 --> 31:03.140]  [SPEAKER_22]: Right.
[31:03.440 --> 31:09.680]  [SPEAKER_22]: Uh, I was at a technical conference today sponsored by ACM, and there was a lot of discussion about key escrow there.
[31:10.240 --> 31:29.940]  [SPEAKER_22]: And, uh, there are still a lot of things that they aren't going to be able to solve if, uh, two rogue agents, uh, people who just decide to go outside the escrow scheme want to, they can always do that, and there is basically no real technical way of that being prevented.
[31:31.040 --> 31:38.360]  [SPEAKER_22]: Uh, there, of course, could be some sort of law pass that makes it illegal, some sort of federal penalty for doing such a thing.
[31:38.540 --> 31:41.860]  [SPEAKER_35]: Right, but, uh, with law enforcement, it's very hard to enforce things like that.
[31:42.160 --> 31:52.340]  [SPEAKER_22]: Well, it would be used selectively against people that they had some other reason to nail and didn't have a, didn't, weren't able to do it and had this tool to use against them then.
[31:52.600 --> 31:52.860]  [SPEAKER_35]: Mm-hmm.
[31:53.340 --> 31:57.900]  [SPEAKER_35]: We're speaking with Dave Vanasar from the Electronic Privacy Information Center down in Washington, D.C.
[31:58.200 --> 32:12.520]  [SPEAKER_35]: If you have any questions concerning digital telephony or electronic freedom, privacy issues, uh, things like that, or maybe if you just want to get more involved in the governmental process, uh, give us a call 212-279-3400.
[32:12.760 --> 32:18.940]  [SPEAKER_35]: And, um, we may also, uh, be joined by Phiber Optik, uh, later on if he's able to, uh, to reach us.
[32:19.000 --> 32:24.360]  [SPEAKER_35]: I know his, uh, his funds were, were being depleted, so he may have run out of money for, uh, for the phone.
[32:24.360 --> 32:27.060]  [SPEAKER_35]: Uh, so we'll, we'll see if we hear from him in a little bit.
[32:27.500 --> 32:29.440]  [SPEAKER_35]: 212-279-3400.
[32:29.580 --> 32:31.160]  [SPEAKER_35]: Let's take our first phone call.
[32:31.380 --> 32:31.720]  [SPEAKER_35]: Good evening.
[32:31.860 --> 32:32.080]  [SPEAKER_35]: You're on.
[32:33.300 --> 32:53.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, actually, uh, what I wanted to talk about was the, um, in, um, next Wednesday, uh, right after the election, the Public Service Commission is, in New York, is going to begin hearings on the plan that would determine how we're going to be charged for telephone service for the next seven years.
[32:54.240 --> 33:09.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's the, uh, New York NYNEX's, uh, incentive, uh, regulation plan, which, uh, uh, just came out of settlement, uh, hearings, which were on a confidential basis.
[33:09.900 --> 33:14.500]  [SPEAKER_06]: They finally released, uh, the plan with, uh, about 17 signatures.
[33:14.960 --> 33:21.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, people like MCI and AT&T and, uh, cable television didn't sign it.
[33:21.040 --> 33:29.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, but it's going up for, unless they get another delay, it's going up for litigation starting next Wednesday up in Albany.
[33:30.210 --> 33:38.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, uh, so far, the plan calls for certain rate reductions for, uh, customers, uh, in the New York area.
[33:38.500 --> 33:46.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: Nassau, some customers will get a reduction on their flat rate, a charge from 22-27 down to 2016.
[33:46.900 --> 33:51.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, people in Great Neck, for instance, would go from 1802 to 1665.
[33:52.780 --> 33:58.640]  [SPEAKER_35]: And, uh, perhaps the most important part of this whole plan is the elimination of the touchstone fee once and for all.
[33:59.080 --> 33:59.560]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, yes.
[33:59.820 --> 34:04.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: That, that would apply to about 78 percent of the, uh, people.
[34:04.340 --> 34:06.740]  [SPEAKER_35]: And we're going to have one, one heck of a party when that happens.
[34:07.940 --> 34:11.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: But, of course, there are many ramifications of this.
[34:11.400 --> 34:30.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: It may be that if the regulation isn't stringent and very, uh, specific, they could be earning crazily because they are talking about, uh, reducing the workforce from 9 to 13,000, which would mean their productivity, uh, costs and everything would be,
[34:30.760 --> 34:35.460]  [SPEAKER_06]: uh, give them a tremendous bottom line where they make tremendous profits.
[34:35.460 --> 34:40.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, uh, the, uh, it is going to be a very important...
[34:40.860 --> 34:44.420]  [SPEAKER_35]: Okay, so, so, so, just to sum up, uh, when does this begin and how long does it last?
[34:44.600 --> 34:50.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, well, the, uh, hearings begin, though, on, um, Wednesday, November 9th, up in Albany.
[34:50.920 --> 34:55.120]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, they may have some in New York, and, uh, I'll call you and let you know if that takes place.
[34:55.400 --> 35:12.200]  [SPEAKER_06]: But I'd just like to mention for people in, uh, uh, Nassau County, for instance, and, uh, Suffolk County and in Westchester County, uh, there are, uh, important reductions in, in a lot of the flat rate charges for residential customers.
[35:12.540 --> 35:15.220]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, there's a problem about, what about New York City?
[35:15.370 --> 35:18.950]  [SPEAKER_06]: Is New York City going to get any reductions on their basic rate?
[35:19.140 --> 35:28.430]  [SPEAKER_06]: Because New York City, except for little spots in, uh, Queens, and possibly, excuse me, Satin Island, don't have an opportunity for flat rate service.
[35:28.430 --> 35:49.910]  [SPEAKER_06]: So, uh, but the, um, there is money because the commission had found in a previous case, and they haven't paid out all this money yet, that the phone company had earned too much money, and according to the old way of regulation by rate of return, that they were supposed to give back a lot of this money.
[35:49.910 --> 35:59.870]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, uh, the, uh, the only application that was made was, number one, the elimination of the 50-cent Touch-Tone charge for residential customers.
[36:00.180 --> 36:05.580]  [SPEAKER_06]: Business customers will come in on this in a couple of years, but, uh, the residential will get it.
[36:05.740 --> 36:11.890]  [SPEAKER_06]: Assuming that the plan goes into effect in January of 95, that'll take effect.
[36:12.060 --> 36:28.180]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, the, but, uh, I want to point out that Buffalo, Erie County, and Nassau County had a representative into, in these proceedings, which resulted in having some give back of basic charges to some customers.
[36:28.800 --> 36:45.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: Um, but, uh, the city of New York was there, but, uh, they had a representative there, but the representative apparently, uh, didn't, uh, have anything to offer about what could be done for New York City's customers who only have message rate.
[36:45.890 --> 36:51.850]  [SPEAKER_06]: It might be that they should institute a flat rate, uh, option for various communities.
[36:52.000 --> 36:55.060]  [SPEAKER_35]: Well, that would certainly be a very popular thing to have here in New York.
[36:55.240 --> 36:59.700]  [SPEAKER_35]: I want to thank you for, uh, for the info, and I'm sure we'll be hearing more about this in, uh, in the weeks ahead.
[36:59.870 --> 37:00.260]  [SPEAKER_35]: Thanks again.
[37:00.540 --> 37:02.140]  [SPEAKER_35]: I believe we have Phiber Optik with us.
[37:02.200 --> 37:02.820]  [SPEAKER_35]: Phiber, are you there?
[37:02.960 --> 37:03.370]  [SPEAKER_16]: Yes, we do.
[37:03.680 --> 37:04.180]  [SPEAKER_35]: All right.
[37:04.430 --> 37:06.180]  [SPEAKER_35]: Phiber, Dave Benassar is also on the line.
[37:06.580 --> 37:07.140]  [SPEAKER_22]: How you doing?
[37:07.600 --> 37:08.020]  [SPEAKER_22]: Hi.
[37:08.500 --> 37:12.540]  [SPEAKER_35]: And this is probably the first time, uh, you guys have talked since, uh, Phiber went away.
[37:14.870 --> 37:15.930]  [SPEAKER_22]: It's been a while.
[37:16.280 --> 37:16.620]  [SPEAKER_22]: Yeah.
[37:16.980 --> 37:22.800]  [SPEAKER_35]: We're, uh, discussing the digital telephony law and how it's going to, um, going to affect people.
[37:22.910 --> 37:26.000]  [SPEAKER_35]: Phiber, maybe you have some observations on that or questions.
[37:26.200 --> 37:26.720]  [SPEAKER_21]: Well, yeah.
[37:26.870 --> 37:28.430]  [SPEAKER_21]: I mean, uh, I was curious.
[37:28.430 --> 37:38.680]  [SPEAKER_21]: I mean, I remember what the whole thing encompassed, and I thought that the industry was, just wasn't going to cooperate, and they didn't have, uh, any corporations backing them.
[37:39.080 --> 37:42.410]  [SPEAKER_21]: So, uh, like, what exactly is it going to entail, is my question.
[37:42.410 --> 37:49.980]  [SPEAKER_21]: Are they actually mandating that, uh, telecommunications companies are now going to have to, uh, build in these eavesdropping mechanisms?
[37:51.140 --> 38:02.390]  [SPEAKER_22]: Um, well, they're requiring the, all the standard-setting bodies to, uh, to do the standards for it, and if the bodies don't do it, then the FCC is going to step in and set the requirements.
[38:02.980 --> 38:04.740]  [SPEAKER_22]: So, uh, yes, they are.
[38:05.060 --> 38:05.450]  [SPEAKER_22]: Wow.
[38:05.800 --> 38:11.560]  [SPEAKER_22]: Uh, in exchange, the, uh, the telecom companies get a half a billion dollars to play with.
[38:11.850 --> 38:12.220]  [SPEAKER_22]: Wow.
[38:12.460 --> 38:14.120]  [SPEAKER_35]: And we have to raise that money somehow.
[38:15.480 --> 38:18.460]  [SPEAKER_35]: And we've got to do it quick, too, because it's coming out of our pockets.
[38:20.890 --> 38:23.320]  [SPEAKER_35]: So, uh, Mark, are you surprised by that?
[38:23.580 --> 38:24.720]  [SPEAKER_21]: Um, I'm really surprised.
[38:24.720 --> 38:27.410]  [SPEAKER_21]: It seems like so much, uh, changes since I went away.
[38:27.700 --> 38:27.980]  [SPEAKER_35]: Yeah.
[38:28.200 --> 38:30.120]  [SPEAKER_21]: But, uh, I see, I see two problems.
[38:30.700 --> 38:46.000]  [SPEAKER_21]: The, the first problem is that people shouldn't lose sight of the fact that there's, uh, plenty of, uh, phone company-type testing mechanisms that are already inherent in most of the infrastructure of the telephone company as it is now.
[38:46.620 --> 39:03.930]  [SPEAKER_21]: And, uh, if, uh, hackers can figure out how to use these type of mechanisms to eavesdrop on conversations the way things are now, then, uh, I see things only getting worse if they're gonna have to engineer mechanisms that are gonna allow people, like the FBI,
[39:04.220 --> 39:09.500]  [SPEAKER_21]: many of whom aren't technically inclined, to be able to eavesdrop remotely.
[39:11.560 --> 39:21.640]  [SPEAKER_21]: And, uh, by facilitating a mechanism like that, it seems like it's gonna be, uh, a whole lot easier for the wrong types of people to abuse that mechanism.
[39:23.240 --> 39:23.890]  [SPEAKER_35]: Mm-hmm.
[39:25.350 --> 39:32.260]  [SPEAKER_35]: Yeah, it's, uh, it's, it's definitely gonna be some, uh, some rough riding ahead as far as, uh, privacy and, and telecommunications go.
[39:32.260 --> 39:37.820]  [SPEAKER_35]: So, um, Dave, is there any kind of, uh, a counter-strike to this in the works?
[39:37.960 --> 39:40.080]  [SPEAKER_35]: Or, uh, is it, is the battle over?
[39:40.260 --> 39:41.390]  [SPEAKER_35]: Or are there other things we can do?
[39:42.180 --> 39:49.300]  [SPEAKER_22]: Uh, well, next session, they're gonna have to appropriate the money to spend the, the, uh, 500 million.
[39:49.740 --> 40:04.480]  [SPEAKER_22]: Uh, and, uh, there's certainly an opportunity at that point, uh, that we're gonna try and lead the charge to, uh, to get the money struck out of the bill, which means they could, uh, they could demand all they want, but they wouldn't have any money to spend,
[40:04.480 --> 40:07.220]  [SPEAKER_22]: and the phone companies won't do a thing without the money.
[40:08.100 --> 40:08.350]  [SPEAKER_35]: Uh-huh.
[40:08.390 --> 40:10.280]  [SPEAKER_35]: Do you think there's a reasonable chance we can do that?
[40:10.800 --> 40:12.580]  [SPEAKER_22]: Uh, I think it's worth the effort.
[40:13.300 --> 40:13.720]  [SPEAKER_22]: Uh-huh.
[40:13.720 --> 40:16.200]  [SPEAKER_22]: Uh, if nothing else, we'll drive them up the wall.
[40:16.500 --> 40:16.680]  [SPEAKER_35]: Yeah.
[40:17.520 --> 40:19.430]  [SPEAKER_22]: Well, through ulcers or something.
[40:19.740 --> 40:20.020]  [SPEAKER_35]: Uh-huh.
[40:20.660 --> 40:22.100]  [SPEAKER_35]: Okay, let's take a couple more phone calls.
[40:22.390 --> 40:23.320]  [SPEAKER_35]: Good evening, you're on.
[40:24.040 --> 40:37.020]  [SPEAKER_20]: Hello, uh, I was speaking, I was listening to this, and, uh, you know, concerning these ID cards, don't be surprised if you hear something, like, uh, if the media may raise the word eminent domain.
[40:37.410 --> 40:39.870]  [SPEAKER_20]: When you hear that, you know you've got real big problems.
[40:40.800 --> 40:41.240]  [SPEAKER_20]: Will?
[40:41.430 --> 40:43.080]  [SPEAKER_35]: Do you want to go into a little more detail on that?
[40:43.520 --> 40:47.160]  [SPEAKER_20]: Uh, well, concern, uh, how can I explain this?
[40:48.500 --> 40:58.580]  [SPEAKER_20]: Uh, the situation is that, uh, you know, you know, people will have, you know, wow, I didn't expect to get on this soon.
[40:58.890 --> 41:03.680]  [SPEAKER_20]: But nonetheless, uh, you know, it's, I'm surprised, I don't even know where to start.
[41:03.950 --> 41:09.160]  [SPEAKER_20]: I was, I had another thing I was going to speak about, a little, a little more on the light side and something more on the technical.
[41:09.480 --> 41:10.600]  [SPEAKER_35]: Well, let's stick to this for now.
[41:10.980 --> 41:11.350]  [SPEAKER_20]: Okay.
[41:12.020 --> 41:12.820]  [SPEAKER_20]: Eminent domain.
[41:13.220 --> 41:18.120]  [SPEAKER_20]: It's a situation where you'd have, uh, a number of civil liberties groups, they're already on the case here.
[41:18.120 --> 41:21.850]  [SPEAKER_20]: or, and, uh, that's all I know.
[41:21.980 --> 41:25.500]  [SPEAKER_20]: It's, uh, there's going to be a point where eminent domain's like, we must keep order.
[41:26.430 --> 41:29.890]  [SPEAKER_20]: And so we're going to have to, you know, we're going to have to deal with this in this manner.
[41:30.100 --> 41:30.540]  [SPEAKER_35]: Uh-huh.
[41:30.640 --> 41:33.140]  [SPEAKER_35]: So basically, a crisis situation.
[41:33.410 --> 41:33.850]  [SPEAKER_20]: Exactly.
[41:34.060 --> 41:43.720]  [SPEAKER_20]: And we know we have an administration that seems to be very professional at creating crises, thanks to the media, or the established media, if you will.
[41:44.100 --> 41:44.520]  [SPEAKER_35]: Right.
[41:45.060 --> 41:48.410]  [SPEAKER_35]: And the crisis in the California case would be the illegal aliens.
[41:48.800 --> 41:49.160]  [SPEAKER_20]: Exactly.
[41:49.450 --> 41:49.700]  [SPEAKER_20]: Exactly.
[41:50.580 --> 41:50.910]  [SPEAKER_35]: Okay.
[41:51.260 --> 41:51.950]  [SPEAKER_35]: Thanks for the call.
[41:52.260 --> 41:52.500]  [SPEAKER_20]: All right.
[41:52.680 --> 41:53.040]  [SPEAKER_20]: Okay, bye.
[41:53.180 --> 41:53.460]  [SPEAKER_35]: Take care.
[41:54.000 --> 41:55.980]  [SPEAKER_35]: Uh, Phiber, I mailed you some of those articles, too.
[41:56.040 --> 41:56.500]  [SPEAKER_35]: Did you get them?
[41:56.600 --> 41:57.600]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah, yes, I did today.
[41:57.800 --> 42:02.100]  [SPEAKER_35]: And, um, well, one of them, I congratulate you for helping us make the million mark in prison.
[42:02.320 --> 42:06.080]  [SPEAKER_21]: I, I, I feel lucky to have been able to contribute to something like that.
[42:06.320 --> 42:08.140]  [SPEAKER_35]: And you do get a plaque for this, don't you?
[42:08.460 --> 42:09.740]  [SPEAKER_21]: Oh, I hope so.
[42:09.890 --> 42:11.370]  [SPEAKER_21]: Maybe I'll, I guess I'll find out when I leave.
[42:11.580 --> 42:14.280]  [SPEAKER_35]: I mean, they couldn't have done it without, uh, without people like you all over the world.
[42:14.620 --> 42:15.500]  [SPEAKER_35]: The country, anyway.
[42:15.500 --> 42:20.180]  [SPEAKER_22]: So, because you're leaving so soon, they may kind of, uh, try and cheat you out of that plaque.
[42:21.200 --> 42:23.480]  [SPEAKER_35]: Yeah, but for every one person that leaves, another two come in.
[42:24.340 --> 42:26.020]  [SPEAKER_21]: Uh, it's, it's getting to be more than that.
[42:26.980 --> 42:29.300]  [SPEAKER_35]: Well, your prison is incredibly overcrowded, isn't it?
[42:29.350 --> 42:29.720]  [SPEAKER_21]: Oh, yeah.
[42:29.870 --> 42:34.930]  [SPEAKER_21]: In fact, uh, the actual statistics are that this place was built for roughly 180 people.
[42:35.520 --> 42:39.460]  [SPEAKER_21]: And, uh, right now, as I speak, there are well over 300 people.
[42:39.960 --> 42:41.540]  [SPEAKER_35]: That's just in your little section, though.
[42:41.800 --> 42:43.350]  [SPEAKER_21]: I'm, I'm talking about in the whole camp.
[42:43.980 --> 42:46.100]  [SPEAKER_21]: The whole camp was built for 180 people.
[42:46.260 --> 42:46.720]  [SPEAKER_35]: Two buildings.
[42:46.910 --> 42:48.640]  [SPEAKER_35]: But you're not talking about the place across the street.
[42:50.140 --> 42:51.740]  [SPEAKER_35]: You know, the, the, the...
[42:51.740 --> 42:52.580]  [SPEAKER_21]: Oh, that's the FCI.
[42:52.850 --> 42:52.960]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah.
[42:53.020 --> 42:54.700]  [SPEAKER_21]: That houses, I think, about 1,000 people.
[42:54.820 --> 42:55.180]  [SPEAKER_35]: Right, okay.
[42:55.350 --> 42:57.680]  [SPEAKER_21]: Talking just the camp, just alone, where we live here.
[42:57.930 --> 42:58.140]  [SPEAKER_35]: Uh-huh.
[42:59.390 --> 43:02.980]  [SPEAKER_21]: It was supposed to be for 180 people, and, uh, there's over 300 living here.
[43:04.220 --> 43:04.580]  [SPEAKER_35]: Amazing.
[43:04.740 --> 43:08.120]  [SPEAKER_35]: Yeah, they have people, uh, living in hallways and TV rooms?
[43:08.540 --> 43:10.410]  [SPEAKER_21]: Uh, no, just, just the TV rooms.
[43:10.430 --> 43:11.060]  [SPEAKER_35]: TV rooms, okay.
[43:12.060 --> 43:13.040]  [SPEAKER_35]: That's, uh, that's something.
[43:13.060 --> 43:20.280]  [SPEAKER_21]: In fact, if you could get close enough to the building and look into the window of the upstairs TV room, you'd see the window filled with beds.
[43:20.410 --> 43:22.800]  [SPEAKER_35]: Well, we could try that, but we'd be shot while we're out there.
[43:23.500 --> 43:25.100]  [SPEAKER_35]: So, uh, I don't know if it's worth the effort.
[43:25.480 --> 43:26.980]  [SPEAKER_22]: Become a permanent resident there.
[43:27.180 --> 43:27.890]  [SPEAKER_35]: Yeah, that's true, too.
[43:27.950 --> 43:28.850]  [SPEAKER_35]: They might ask you to stay.
[43:29.200 --> 43:29.500]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.
[43:29.940 --> 43:31.980]  [SPEAKER_35]: All right, let's, uh, take another phone call.
[43:32.240 --> 43:33.120]  [SPEAKER_35]: Good evening, you're on.
[43:33.560 --> 43:33.820]  [SPEAKER_10]: Hi.
[43:34.280 --> 43:36.700]  [SPEAKER_10]: I have a question about, uh, the 950 exchange.
[43:36.980 --> 43:37.720]  [SPEAKER_35]: Can you speak up a bit?
[43:38.140 --> 43:40.520]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, I have a question about the 950 exchange.
[43:40.740 --> 43:40.980]  [SPEAKER_35]: Yes.
[43:41.240 --> 43:42.860]  [SPEAKER_10]: Is that free, or...
[43:42.860 --> 43:44.720]  [SPEAKER_35]: Uh, 950 is, is free.
[43:45.080 --> 43:48.580]  [SPEAKER_35]: Um, uh, maybe Phiber can, can explain it better than I can.
[43:49.020 --> 43:51.080]  [SPEAKER_21]: Well, uh, it certainly is free.
[43:51.260 --> 43:52.700]  [SPEAKER_21]: What else did you want to know about it?
[43:53.900 --> 43:55.800]  [SPEAKER_35]: I mean, do you have any other questions about it?
[43:55.980 --> 43:58.780]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, I have a question about, like, Amnex and TVXs.
[43:58.780 --> 43:59.700]  [SPEAKER_35]: Okay.
[44:00.080 --> 44:05.500]  [SPEAKER_10]: Uh, I want to know, like, uh, about ANI and, uh, and, like, what it is, really.
[44:06.100 --> 44:07.280]  [SPEAKER_10]: What is ANI?
[44:07.620 --> 44:08.580]  [SPEAKER_09]: Okay, that's a good question.
[44:08.880 --> 44:09.860]  [SPEAKER_09]: Sure, it's a good question.
[44:10.020 --> 44:18.620]  [SPEAKER_21]: Well, uh, in brief, at least, it's a means of a switching system, basically a computer that processes your phone calls.
[44:18.940 --> 44:24.860]  [SPEAKER_21]: It's a means for it to signal to some other computer somewhere, whether it be another switching system or something.
[44:25.860 --> 44:29.680]  [SPEAKER_21]: Basically, your telephone number is, is the main purpose of it.
[44:30.380 --> 44:32.840]  [SPEAKER_21]: Let's, let's say, for example, you're calling an 800 number.
[44:33.620 --> 44:38.280]  [SPEAKER_21]: Your switching system obviously knows what your phone number is since you're directly connected to it.
[44:38.340 --> 44:39.800]  [SPEAKER_21]: And it's, it is your switching system.
[44:39.920 --> 44:41.060]  [SPEAKER_21]: It processes your calls.
[44:41.780 --> 44:50.280]  [SPEAKER_21]: So, uh, what it's going to do when, uh, when it does a connection to an 800 number, leaving out all the technical stuff that happens in between, which isn't really important.
[44:50.280 --> 44:58.960]  [SPEAKER_21]: And the important thing is that your local switching system, the computer itself, is going to signal your, your telephone number to the switch at the other end.
[44:59.060 --> 45:00.520]  [SPEAKER_21]: And that's how it knows where you're calling from.
[45:01.540 --> 45:03.540]  [SPEAKER_21]: This has nothing to do with caller ID.
[45:03.840 --> 45:04.680]  [SPEAKER_21]: You should bear that in mind.
[45:04.820 --> 45:10.800]  [SPEAKER_35]: Yeah, well, caller ID, while it may get the same information in the end, uh, it gets it in a totally different way.
[45:11.200 --> 45:11.640]  [SPEAKER_35]: Yeah.
[45:12.080 --> 45:14.940]  [SPEAKER_35]: And, uh, different equipment is, is required and all that kind of thing.
[45:15.480 --> 45:23.680]  [SPEAKER_35]: Um, okay, but I guess, uh, I guess maybe what he was getting at was, um, is ANI passed on when you use a 950 number.
[45:24.160 --> 45:25.780]  [SPEAKER_21]: It, uh, wasn't in the past.
[45:25.940 --> 45:27.020]  [SPEAKER_21]: I mean, that may have changed.
[45:28.000 --> 45:30.940]  [SPEAKER_21]: Traditionally, 950s were known as a feature group B number.
[45:31.120 --> 45:33.180]  [SPEAKER_21]: And the feature groups go...
[45:42.170 --> 45:44.210]  [SPEAKER_21]: It was reserved for 950s.
[45:44.310 --> 45:50.210]  [SPEAKER_21]: And all they were, were, uh, the predecessor basically to equal access.
[45:50.910 --> 46:00.030]  [SPEAKER_21]: I mean, the only reason they're holding on to the 950 exchange is that, uh, I know numerous companies are using it for purposes that have absolutely nothing to do with long distance.
[46:00.470 --> 46:01.750]  [SPEAKER_35]: Uh, such as Domino's.
[46:02.110 --> 46:02.490]  [SPEAKER_21]: Right.
[46:03.210 --> 46:07.830]  [SPEAKER_21]: Initially, it was strictly for long distance carriers and there were no numbers over, uh, 1,999.
[46:08.690 --> 46:08.990]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh-huh.
[46:09.070 --> 46:12.450]  [SPEAKER_21]: They only assigned from, uh, 0, 0, 0, 0 to 1,999.
[46:13.350 --> 46:13.630]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh-huh.
[46:13.990 --> 46:18.570]  [SPEAKER_21]: Obviously, now that's changed and also the purpose for the exchange has changed.
[46:18.990 --> 46:27.810]  [SPEAKER_21]: So it's certainly possible that today they could be passing ANI simply because they're offering newer services that had nothing to do with its original purpose.
[46:28.250 --> 46:33.790]  [SPEAKER_35]: 950 numbers are still a way to, uh, to make a, a cheap phone call without having all those surcharges.
[46:33.790 --> 46:48.450]  [SPEAKER_35]: If you can find a company that actually offers you the service, um, for instance, cable and wireless, uh, Metro Media, uh, you can basically use a code, call a number someplace, and pay almost the same amount that you would pay if you dial direct from your home,
[46:49.110 --> 46:55.990]  [SPEAKER_35]: uh, as opposed to AT&T, MCI, Sprint, who will all give you large surcharges, uh, for making a call in the first place.
[46:57.650 --> 46:59.470]  [SPEAKER_35]: So 950s apparently allow you to do that.
[46:59.970 --> 47:01.390]  [SPEAKER_35]: Uh, Phiber, how are you doing on time?
[47:02.150 --> 47:07.830]  [SPEAKER_21]: Uh, I have about three minutes left, but unfortunately, uh, I'm not going to be able to call back.
[47:08.090 --> 47:08.750]  [SPEAKER_35]: Oh, why is that?
[47:08.870 --> 47:09.550]  [SPEAKER_21]: Where the show ends.
[47:09.730 --> 47:17.310]  [SPEAKER_21]: Well, I've been waiting here for quite some time, and, uh, a little bit of stupidity happened tonight that caused them to close down the entire administration building.
[47:17.770 --> 47:20.570]  [SPEAKER_35]: Uh, what, uh, is a little bit of stupidity or don't you want to get into it?
[47:20.790 --> 47:33.050]  [SPEAKER_21]: Uh, it involved, apparently, at least from what I heard, somebody had attempted to use one of the can in-house telephones in, uh, one of the off-limits rooms down in the administration building.
[47:33.730 --> 47:41.650]  [SPEAKER_21]: And apparently, uh, set off a red light somewhere on, uh, some main phone, either in the office in the admin building or down at the FCI.
[47:41.970 --> 47:42.250]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh-huh.
[47:42.510 --> 47:49.330]  [SPEAKER_21]: And, uh, apparently they radioed up and, uh, told the people up here that somebody had tried to use, uh, one of the in-house telephones.
[47:50.390 --> 47:54.790]  [SPEAKER_21]: And, uh, they decided that they were going to lock down the entire building and not let anybody get into it.
[47:55.550 --> 47:58.490]  [SPEAKER_35]: Wow, so, uh, that happened until just recently, I guess.
[47:58.670 --> 47:59.610]  [SPEAKER_21]: Oh, that happened tonight.
[47:59.910 --> 48:01.350]  [SPEAKER_35]: And, but they let everybody back in.
[48:02.090 --> 48:03.850]  [SPEAKER_35]: Or, are you calling from someplace else?
[48:04.010 --> 48:05.410]  [SPEAKER_21]: Calling from my housing unit.
[48:05.510 --> 48:06.110]  [SPEAKER_35]: Oh, I see.
[48:06.250 --> 48:09.830]  [SPEAKER_21]: So, we're basically, uh, roughly 160 people using two telephones.
[48:10.070 --> 48:10.710]  [SPEAKER_35]: Oh, that's bad.
[48:11.430 --> 48:13.990]  [SPEAKER_35]: Well, so there's a whole line of people there waiting to use it.
[48:13.990 --> 48:16.790]  [SPEAKER_35]: But, I bet you're the only one that has a radio show to be on.
[48:17.150 --> 48:18.070]  [SPEAKER_22]: Yeah, I guess so.
[48:18.170 --> 48:19.630]  [SPEAKER_35]: Although, I don't want to jump to conclusions.
[48:19.830 --> 48:21.830]  [SPEAKER_22]: Well, maybe the next guy can call.
[48:22.550 --> 48:26.110]  [SPEAKER_35]: Yeah, have the next guy call us, and, uh, we can put him on instead.
[48:26.570 --> 48:33.650]  [SPEAKER_35]: Well, Phiber, we're not on next week because, uh, we have to do the post-mortem for the election, uh, election day and, and, and fret about what's ahead.
[48:34.070 --> 48:34.250]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah.
[48:34.390 --> 48:36.230]  [SPEAKER_35]: Uh, but we will be on again in two weeks.
[48:36.350 --> 48:38.510]  [SPEAKER_35]: Now, you're going to be out on the 22nd.
[48:38.670 --> 48:39.130]  [SPEAKER_21]: That's right.
[48:39.210 --> 48:40.310]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah, Tuesday the 22nd.
[48:40.430 --> 48:42.910]  [SPEAKER_35]: Okay, that means you'll be here live in the studio on the 23rd.
[48:43.050 --> 48:43.450]  [SPEAKER_21]: That's right.
[48:43.750 --> 48:45.370]  [SPEAKER_35]: We're looking forward to that like, like nothing.
[48:45.670 --> 48:45.950]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah.
[48:46.190 --> 48:47.690]  [SPEAKER_35]: Even more than Thanksgiving the day after.
[48:48.890 --> 48:51.990]  [SPEAKER_21]: Well, that was just my magic click, if anybody else heard it.
[48:52.130 --> 48:53.530]  [SPEAKER_35]: Okay, so you have, what, about a minute now?
[48:53.770 --> 48:54.990]  [SPEAKER_21]: Uh, a few seconds now.
[48:55.090 --> 48:55.570]  [SPEAKER_35]: A few seconds.
[48:55.710 --> 48:57.530]  [SPEAKER_35]: Okay, well, say whatever you want to say.
[48:57.990 --> 49:05.310]  [SPEAKER_21]: Uh, well, I look forward to, uh, coming back, obviously, and I look forward to having a lot of fun, uh, that Wednesday, the 23rd.
[49:06.150 --> 49:06.510]  [SPEAKER_35]: Okay.
[49:07.350 --> 49:08.190]  [SPEAKER_35]: Sounds good to me.
[49:08.710 --> 49:11.270]  [SPEAKER_35]: Dave, do you have anything to say in the last couple of seconds with Phiber?
[49:11.270 --> 49:12.390]  [SPEAKER_22]: Uh, congratulations.
[49:12.890 --> 49:17.530]  [SPEAKER_22]: I'll, uh, be seeing you out, uh, out here in the so-called free world.
[49:17.810 --> 49:18.930]  [SPEAKER_22]: Yep, see you on the other side.
[49:19.570 --> 49:19.890]  [SPEAKER_35]: Okay.
[49:20.330 --> 49:23.090]  [SPEAKER_35]: Well, we'll let you, uh, click off naturally, Phiber.
[49:24.370 --> 49:25.430]  [SPEAKER_35]: A graceful exit.
[49:25.570 --> 49:28.230]  [SPEAKER_35]: Yeah, a graceful exit, and, uh, we're going to take some more phone calls here.
[49:28.930 --> 49:31.050]  [SPEAKER_35]: Uh, 212-279-3400.
[49:31.530 --> 49:32.430]  [SPEAKER_35]: Oh, there he goes.
[49:33.030 --> 49:34.350]  [SPEAKER_35]: Uh, we're here with Dave Banasar.
[49:34.650 --> 49:36.470]  [SPEAKER_35]: Uh, you're still with us in the free world, right?
[49:36.730 --> 49:38.790]  [SPEAKER_22]: Uh, well, here in Maryland, at least.
[49:38.890 --> 49:39.710]  [SPEAKER_35]: Okay, close enough.
[49:40.010 --> 49:41.090]  [SPEAKER_35]: Good evening, you're on the air.
[49:41.270 --> 49:42.930]  [SPEAKER_18]: Good evening, two privacy items.
[49:43.150 --> 49:48.370]  [SPEAKER_18]: First, to try to give a simpler answer to the caller who asked about ANI.
[49:48.550 --> 49:53.670]  [SPEAKER_18]: That's, that is basically for 800 and also 900, uh, service operators.
[49:53.910 --> 50:02.570]  [SPEAKER_18]: One reason I have 800 service at home, um, is so that I can extract the phone numbers of people who might not want to give me their number.
[50:02.750 --> 50:06.570]  [SPEAKER_18]: It won't show on my call ID, but if they're calling from the U.S.
[50:06.590 --> 50:15.190]  [SPEAKER_18]: or Canada, uh, their area code and phone number will appear on my 800 bill at the end of the cycle when, when the bill comes.
[50:15.470 --> 50:19.650]  [SPEAKER_35]: Well, do you know, if you use either WillTel or Cable and Wireless, it will show up in your caller ID box?
[50:19.690 --> 50:21.410]  [SPEAKER_18]: Or Cable and Wireless, thank you.
[50:21.550 --> 50:22.430]  [SPEAKER_18]: So I must get...
[50:22.430 --> 50:27.570]  [SPEAKER_18]: Now, WillTel do a nice, uh, credit investigation of you before they let you sign up, by the way.
[50:27.870 --> 50:28.490]  [SPEAKER_35]: Oh, that's nice.
[50:28.490 --> 50:30.010]  [SPEAKER_18]: I don't know about Cable and Wireless.
[50:30.610 --> 50:45.810]  [SPEAKER_18]: Um, and WillTel have an unpleasant connection with, uh, sort of rip-off company Encore, but, so it's WillTel and Cable and Wireless, right, which could let some of us drop our, uh, um, 800 service for that reason.
[50:45.810 --> 50:49.850]  [SPEAKER_18]: Of course, the 500 and the 700 service let you do it either way.
[50:49.970 --> 50:57.890]  [SPEAKER_18]: You can give people a call reversing PIN, and then, same as with 800 service, their calling numbers appear on your bill.
[50:58.170 --> 51:03.610]  [SPEAKER_18]: They pay for the call, then their calling area code and number do not appear on your bill.
[51:03.610 --> 51:22.710]  [SPEAKER_18]: And what I do is, when I want to extract it, I have the, I will sometimes have the non, where they try to pay for it themselves, it will go into a line that I use only for outgoing calls and don't answer or have any rings on incoming, forcing them to use the code and make me pay for the call incoming,
[51:22.890 --> 51:35.350]  [SPEAKER_18]: but it lets me extract the number when I get my next bill for the AT&T True Connections service, and I trust the other companies when they introduce the 500 service, it will work the same way.
[51:35.490 --> 51:37.970]  [SPEAKER_35]: That's quite an operation you've got going over there.
[51:38.150 --> 51:38.550]  [SPEAKER_18]: No.
[51:38.830 --> 51:40.030]  [SPEAKER_35]: Sounds like you're running a small government.
[51:40.270 --> 51:41.210]  [SPEAKER_18]: Who likes to be able.
[51:41.310 --> 51:45.090]  [SPEAKER_18]: I'm the guy who thanked you so much for the thing about the Windsor catalog, you remember?
[51:45.370 --> 51:46.130]  [SPEAKER_35]: Did you get yours?
[51:46.570 --> 51:49.910]  [SPEAKER_18]: Oh, well, I never put my own number.
[51:49.930 --> 51:50.370]  [SPEAKER_35]: Oh, okay.
[51:50.510 --> 51:50.770]  [SPEAKER_18]: You know what?
[51:50.790 --> 52:04.130]  [SPEAKER_18]: I did check all my numbers, and happily, by having completely unlisted service, they said, I'm sorry, we cannot help you on all my regular and ringmate numbers, so I was very relieved of that.
[52:04.130 --> 52:10.070]  [SPEAKER_35]: Well, that's not necessarily the reason, because we did have unlisted numbers show up with addresses, numbers that had always been unlisted.
[52:10.070 --> 52:13.050]  [SPEAKER_18]: And I appreciated that, I noticed that.
[52:13.390 --> 52:32.850]  [SPEAKER_18]: And anyway, what was the other thing, before I go to my second point that I was going to say about this 800, oh, I was talking with Bell Canada, who are the local company for Quebec and Ontario provinces, and they were saying how they always get the number on their call ID,
[52:33.110 --> 52:48.390]  [SPEAKER_18]: they call it call display, when people call from the states hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of miles away, though never the name, if it involves enhanced call ID, the caller's name, if it's a listed party, seems to never cross the border.
[52:48.610 --> 52:49.810]  [SPEAKER_35]: Well, not yet, anyway.
[52:50.010 --> 52:50.430]  [SPEAKER_18]: I'm right.
[52:50.670 --> 52:53.550]  [SPEAKER_35]: Okay, now, quickly, what is your second point, because we have other calls?
[52:54.230 --> 53:20.470]  [SPEAKER_18]: Their trial period for the block the blocker, in other words, star 77, or 1177, or anonymous call rejection, supposed to have ended October 31st, but they've extended it, for whatever silly reason, to December 31st, so hopefully about New Year's we'll start being able to actually use star 77 in the rest,
[53:20.970 --> 53:23.770]  [SPEAKER_18]: 9x customers in the rest of New York State.
[53:23.970 --> 53:26.110]  [SPEAKER_35]: Block those people that dare to be anonymous.
[53:27.290 --> 53:29.110]  [SPEAKER_35]: Okay, thanks for the info.
[53:29.290 --> 53:29.430]  [SPEAKER_35]: Sure.
[53:29.530 --> 53:32.450]  [SPEAKER_35]: You can do that now, also, with hardware.
[53:32.850 --> 53:40.910]  [SPEAKER_35]: There is hardware that will detect a call that comes in that's unavailable, not unavailable, a private number, and we'll play a message for them.
[53:41.570 --> 53:43.430]  [SPEAKER_35]: But that does result in a call completion.
[53:44.090 --> 53:47.090]  [SPEAKER_22]: Jump onto my soapbox here, if I can, for a second.
[53:47.210 --> 53:47.330]  [SPEAKER_22]: Go ahead.
[53:47.330 --> 54:04.710]  [SPEAKER_22]: This really does seem, except for that small group of people that seem to want it, like the preceding caller, it just seems like another phone company scheme to try and make it as hard as possible to keep your anonymity and to enhance the caller ID service.
[54:04.710 --> 54:07.250]  [SPEAKER_22]: I think this has very little to do with privacy.
[54:07.710 --> 54:08.150]  [SPEAKER_35]: Absolutely.
[54:08.150 --> 54:08.650]  [SPEAKER_35]: I agree.
[54:08.890 --> 54:19.770]  [SPEAKER_35]: I look at it as more of a toy, and I think that's what most of our listeners look at it as, something to play with, something to figure out how to defeat or what it does in a certain circumstances.
[54:20.070 --> 54:24.270]  [SPEAKER_35]: So in that regard, they may seem a little eager to see these things.
[54:24.410 --> 54:29.550]  [SPEAKER_35]: But yeah, the privacy implications are obviously far more important, and they should be looked upon very,
[54:33.370 --> 54:39.030]  [SPEAKER_35]: I still do not agree with at all, as far as this is going to cut down on harassing phone calls.
[54:39.190 --> 54:44.890]  [SPEAKER_35]: I think all this does is make for this air of confrontation before you even pick up the telephone.
[54:45.690 --> 54:52.750]  [SPEAKER_35]: I can't tell you now how many times you accidentally dial a number, and right away your phone rings back with someone demanding to know why you called them.
[54:53.530 --> 54:56.090]  [SPEAKER_35]: You know, it really makes for unpleasantness.
[54:57.290 --> 55:01.650]  [SPEAKER_35]: Anyway, 212-279-3400, let's fit a few more in.
[55:01.710 --> 55:02.010]  [SPEAKER_35]: Good evening.
[55:03.050 --> 55:04.510]  [SPEAKER_17]: Yes, good evening.
[55:05.970 --> 55:11.190]  [SPEAKER_17]: I'd like to know about that number to Washington, D.C.
[55:11.290 --> 55:14.710]  [SPEAKER_17]: on information on the Clipper chip bill that was passed.
[55:16.030 --> 55:16.630]  [SPEAKER_17]: Hello?
[55:17.090 --> 55:18.170]  [SPEAKER_35]: Yeah, Dave, I think that's you.
[55:19.250 --> 55:24.250]  [SPEAKER_22]: You want our number, the bill number, or Congress's number?
[55:25.950 --> 55:26.850]  [SPEAKER_17]: Your number.
[55:27.210 --> 55:31.990]  [SPEAKER_22]: It's 202-544-9249.
[55:32.870 --> 55:42.610]  [SPEAKER_22]: And if you have any sort of online service, you can get copies of the bill off our CopyServe, America Online, or the net.
[55:43.550 --> 55:44.650]  [SPEAKER_17]: Okay, thank you.
[55:44.970 --> 56:25.650]  [SPEAKER_17]: By the way, I'd like to know if, Mr. Goldstein, if you're familiar with an article in the New York Times Magazine on June 12th dealing with the battle over the clipper chip technology, it was an article by Stephen Levy discussing a man by the name of Whitfield Duffy who was a cryptographer who had some breakthroughs in the science of cryptology which could ensure some kind of privacy on the line
[56:25.650 --> 56:31.130]  [SPEAKER_17]: or some kind of defense against something like clipper chip technology.
[56:31.530 --> 56:33.230]  [SPEAKER_35]: Yeah, I did see the article.
[56:34.430 --> 56:41.490]  [SPEAKER_35]: Cryptography is not my field of expertise, but it certainly is something that a lot of people are paying strict attention to these days.
[56:42.010 --> 56:47.990]  [SPEAKER_35]: And the group of people that I feel more comfortable with are known as cypherpunks.
[56:49.270 --> 56:52.090]  [SPEAKER_35]: And I think we have to look towards people like that.
[56:52.470 --> 56:57.130]  [SPEAKER_17]: Yes, they also covered cypherpunks in the article also.
[56:57.490 --> 56:58.930]  [SPEAKER_35]: Right, I think they were on the front cover, actually.
[57:00.470 --> 57:02.850]  [SPEAKER_17]: No, Mr. Duffy was on the front cover.
[57:02.850 --> 57:04.190]  [SPEAKER_35]: Oh, okay, I'm thinking of something else then.
[57:04.490 --> 57:05.530]  [SPEAKER_17]: Yeah, Gilmore and Hughes.
[57:05.690 --> 57:12.290]  [SPEAKER_17]: They mentioned Gilmore and Hughes as two cypherpunks who were part of that group.
[57:12.630 --> 57:12.890]  [SPEAKER_35]: Uh-huh.
[57:13.610 --> 57:14.910]  [SPEAKER_35]: Okay, thanks for the call.
[57:15.310 --> 57:15.710]  [SPEAKER_17]: Thank you.
[57:16.650 --> 57:18.130]  [SPEAKER_35]: Dave, you let something slip there.
[57:18.290 --> 57:21.170]  [SPEAKER_35]: You guys actually use AOL and CompuServe?
[57:21.430 --> 57:22.690]  [SPEAKER_22]: Yeah, God forbid.
[57:23.170 --> 57:23.910]  [SPEAKER_22]: How come?
[57:23.910 --> 57:33.550]  [SPEAKER_22]: We do, but we can't all be net denizens, and it's important to get our message out as wide as possible.
[57:33.850 --> 57:34.070]  [SPEAKER_35]: Uh-huh.
[57:34.210 --> 57:37.890]  [SPEAKER_35]: But is the reason because you can't get access any other way?
[57:38.410 --> 57:46.370]  [SPEAKER_22]: Uh, well, no, I have, uh, full net access, but, uh, through a regular service provider, but I know a lot of people don't.
[57:46.650 --> 57:46.990]  [SPEAKER_35]: Uh-huh.
[57:47.150 --> 57:47.650]  [SPEAKER_35]: Oh, I see.
[57:47.670 --> 57:48.750]  [SPEAKER_35]: So it's for their benefit.
[57:48.890 --> 57:49.030]  [SPEAKER_35]: Right.
[57:49.190 --> 57:50.710]  [SPEAKER_35]: Because they can't get out from there.
[57:50.830 --> 57:51.030]  [SPEAKER_35]: Okay.
[57:51.450 --> 57:54.730]  [SPEAKER_22]: God forbid I don't use, uh, CompuServe for the enjoyment.
[57:54.970 --> 57:56.270]  [SPEAKER_35]: Well, I was concerned.
[57:56.270 --> 57:59.210]  [SPEAKER_35]: I just felt if you had a problem, you needed a helping hand.
[57:59.790 --> 58:09.490]  [SPEAKER_35]: So, okay, but, um, but people do need to know that, uh, the net is not, uh, what, uh, what, what CompuServe, AOL, and all those other services have in mind.
[58:09.510 --> 58:11.990]  [SPEAKER_35]: It's, it's something much more magical and mystical.
[58:12.430 --> 58:14.530]  [SPEAKER_22]: Uh, yeah, I believe that's what it is.
[58:14.690 --> 58:14.930]  [SPEAKER_35]: Yeah.
[58:15.150 --> 58:16.130]  [SPEAKER_35]: Well, it's supposed to be, anyway.
[58:16.490 --> 58:17.070]  [SPEAKER_35]: Good evening.
[58:17.230 --> 58:17.450]  [SPEAKER_35]: You're on.
[58:18.710 --> 58:19.350]  [SPEAKER_35]: Speak up.
[58:19.890 --> 58:20.450]  [SPEAKER_27]: Uh, hello.
[58:20.690 --> 58:21.170]  [SPEAKER_35]: Yes, go ahead.
[58:21.170 --> 58:35.290]  [SPEAKER_27]: Yes, um, recently, I got, uh, a call from NYNEX, and they told me that someone got hold of my, uh, credit card, calling card number, and, uh, did about $600 worth of calls.
[58:35.530 --> 58:35.950]  [SPEAKER_35]: Okay.
[58:36.130 --> 58:39.090]  [SPEAKER_27]: And how can I protect myself against this thing in the future?
[58:39.250 --> 58:46.230]  [SPEAKER_35]: Well, uh, the NYNEX calling card is, um, physically, it's, it's, it's pretty secure because it only has four digits on it.
[58:46.350 --> 58:47.450]  [SPEAKER_35]: It doesn't have your phone number on it.
[58:47.530 --> 58:50.550]  [SPEAKER_35]: However, uh, did you order a NYNEX calling card?
[58:50.550 --> 58:54.810]  [SPEAKER_27]: Uh, yes, I did, and I, uh, I used it a couple times at the airport.
[58:55.130 --> 59:01.270]  [SPEAKER_35]: Okay, someone could have looked over your shoulder, someone could have been tapping into the line and recording the Touch-Tones, there's all kinds of different ways.
[59:01.450 --> 59:04.490]  [SPEAKER_35]: The important thing, though, for you to know is that you're not liable for those calls.
[59:05.190 --> 59:06.090]  [SPEAKER_27]: All right, good.
[59:06.290 --> 59:14.410]  [SPEAKER_35]: Even if NYNEX had not notified you, if you see something show up on your bill that does not belong to you, uh, even if somebody looks over your shoulder, that doesn't make you guilty of a crime.
[59:14.790 --> 59:15.190]  [SPEAKER_35]: I see.
[59:15.190 --> 59:19.230]  [SPEAKER_35]: Uh, these are digits, and it's an inherently insecure system to start with.
[59:19.810 --> 59:20.030]  [SPEAKER_35]: Right.
[59:20.030 --> 59:27.150]  [SPEAKER_35]: Uh, we had a, we had a situation not too long ago where NYNEX mailed us a calling card we didn't ask for, and they mailed it to the wrong address.
[59:27.390 --> 59:39.970]  [SPEAKER_35]: The person at that address opened it, said, hey, this isn't mine, uh, wrote on the envelope, send back, and NYNEX put that envelope into another envelope and sent it to our proper address, basically telling us, we don't care that other people have looked at your calling card,
[59:40.070 --> 59:40.930]  [SPEAKER_35]: here it is, you know?
[59:41.330 --> 59:41.950]  [SPEAKER_27]: I see.
[59:42.170 --> 59:46.510]  [SPEAKER_35]: Yeah, so it's not something that I would worry about too much, but definitely keep an eye on your phone bill.
[59:46.910 --> 59:48.550]  [SPEAKER_27]: Okay, all right, thank you very much.
[59:48.630 --> 59:49.170]  [SPEAKER_35]: Thanks for calling.
[59:49.530 --> 59:50.310]  [SPEAKER_35]: Hey, we're out of time.
[59:50.410 --> 59:52.930]  [SPEAKER_35]: Dave, thanks very much for, uh, stopping in yet again.
[59:52.930 --> 01:00:05.270]  [SPEAKER_35]: Um, some of you might have seen, uh, Dave Manasar at the HOPE conference, uh, talking about, uh, privacy and, um, actually predicting quite accurately that this digital telephony thing could very well pass in the next couple of months.
[01:00:05.270 --> 01:00:05.870]  [SPEAKER_35]: Well, it did.
[01:00:06.570 --> 01:00:16.450]  [SPEAKER_35]: Um, I guess, uh, something like this kind of strengthens you in a way, makes you, uh, want to fight more, but at the same time, it definitely, uh, has to be looked at as a defeat.
[01:00:16.790 --> 01:00:25.630]  [SPEAKER_35]: And I have to, uh, I have to agree with you, Dave, as far as, um, um, not siding with the Electronic Frontier Foundation in this, saying that it's some kind of, uh, a victory.
[01:00:25.790 --> 01:00:29.230]  [SPEAKER_35]: I, I still don't quite understand what that stance, uh, comes from.
[01:00:29.630 --> 01:00:41.870]  [SPEAKER_22]: Well, you know, they get a lot of their money these days from AT&T and Microsoft, so I guess if, uh, if you're AT&T or Bell Atlantic and you've got a half a billion dollars to play with, you could call it a victory.
[01:00:41.870 --> 01:00:44.390]  [SPEAKER_35]: Yeah, I guess that's, that might be one way of looking at it.
[01:00:44.490 --> 01:00:48.090]  [SPEAKER_35]: We're going to hear more on this whole issue in the, in the weeks and months ahead.
[01:00:48.750 --> 01:00:52.230]  [SPEAKER_35]: Um, Dave, again, thanks for stopping by, and, uh, we'll be in touch in the future.
[01:00:52.770 --> 01:00:53.510]  [SPEAKER_22]: Talk to you soon.
[01:00:53.730 --> 01:00:53.970]  [SPEAKER_35]: Okay.
[01:00:54.470 --> 01:00:54.650]  Bye.
[01:00:59.890 --> 01:01:01.910]  [SPEAKER_35]: And, uh, that is our show for tonight.
[01:01:02.130 --> 01:01:05.690]  [SPEAKER_35]: We're not going to be on next week because of, uh, post-election day.
[01:01:06.290 --> 01:01:09.170]  [SPEAKER_35]: However, we will be back in two weeks, so we'll see you then.
[01:01:09.390 --> 01:01:14.190]  [SPEAKER_35]: Stay tuned for a re-broadcast of the WBAI Evening News here on WBAI New York.
[01:01:14.350 --> 01:01:14.630]  [SPEAKER_35]: Good night.