Off The Hook - 1995-01-18

[00:02.620 --> 00:04.080]  [SPEAKER_25]: Join us every week.
[00:04.140 --> 00:16.500]  [SPEAKER_25]: In fact, this Saturday, from 9 to 12, a three-hour special on Three Mile Island, Chernobyl, Nuclear Energy, all that stuff, this Saturday, 9 o'clock to 12 o'clock, special edition of Exploration.
[00:16.860 --> 00:18.100]  [SPEAKER_25]: And we did it!
[00:18.420 --> 00:20.440]  [SPEAKER_25]: $3,050.
[00:20.720 --> 00:22.060]  [SPEAKER_25]: So thank you very much.
[00:22.200 --> 00:25.160]  [SPEAKER_25]: We broke $3,000 in this segment of Exploration.
[00:25.420 --> 00:30.740]  [SPEAKER_25]: Thank you so much for sponsoring WBAI 99.5 FM.
[00:30.940 --> 00:31.300]  [SPEAKER_25]: Good evening.
[00:44.780 --> 00:48.440]  [SPEAKER_04]: And this is WBAI, where the time is now 9 o'clock p.m.
[00:48.460 --> 00:54.000]  [SPEAKER_04]: And coming up next is a special edition of Off the Hook with Mr. Emmanuel Goldstein.
[00:54.180 --> 00:55.360]  [SPEAKER_04]: Please stay tuned.
[01:03.760 --> 01:09.050]  [SPEAKER_12]: I'm Valerie Van Nistler, General Manager of WBAI Pacifica Radio here in New York.
[01:09.320 --> 01:14.820]  [SPEAKER_12]: Many of you are probably aware of the potential funding crisis facing public broadcasting.
[01:15.180 --> 01:21.560]  [SPEAKER_12]: The newly elected Republican majority in Congress has threatened to defund the Corporation for Public Broadcasting.
[01:22.280 --> 01:27.440]  [SPEAKER_12]: CPB disperses funds to public radio and television stations, including WBAI.
[01:27.820 --> 01:42.960]  [SPEAKER_12]: This Thursday, January 19th, the House Committee on Labor and Health and Human Services, a subcommittee of the House Appropriations Group, will be deciding whether to eliminate funding for CPB this year and in the coming years.
[01:43.940 --> 01:50.640]  [SPEAKER_12]: WBAI and the Pacifica Network receive approximately 20% of our overall funding through CPB.
[01:51.120 --> 02:05.880]  [SPEAKER_12]: If public and community broadcasting is important to you, and you'd like more information on how to reach your elected officials, to voice your concerns, please call WBAI at 212-279-0707.
[02:05.880 --> 02:11.950]  [SPEAKER_12]: Again, that's 212-279-0707 for more information.
[02:12.570 --> 02:15.760]  [SPEAKER_12]: Please make your voice heard by this Thursday.
[02:16.380 --> 02:17.320]  [SPEAKER_12]: Thank you very much.
[02:22.640 --> 02:28.120]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, General, Connie and men, I have something awesome to reveal to you.
[02:28.350 --> 02:29.380]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, go ahead, sir.
[02:29.600 --> 02:29.960]  [SPEAKER_10]: Go ahead.
[02:30.640 --> 02:34.850]  [SPEAKER_10]: Two flying saucers have just landed on my plate.
[02:38.320 --> 02:39.540]  [SPEAKER_25]: Turn away, sir.
[02:39.620 --> 02:40.040]  [SPEAKER_25]: I'll eat them.
[02:41.220 --> 02:42.660]  [SPEAKER_01]: Invasion from without.
[02:43.080 --> 02:44.600]  [SPEAKER_01]: Redefining human beings.
[02:44.820 --> 02:45.220]  [SPEAKER_01]: Mutation.
[02:45.780 --> 02:46.940]  [SPEAKER_01]: Mutants among us.
[02:47.060 --> 02:48.980]  [SPEAKER_01]: Systematic mutation within us.
[02:49.400 --> 02:50.700]  [SPEAKER_01]: Monday, January 23rd.
[02:51.440 --> 02:52.120]  [SPEAKER_01]: Midnight.
[02:52.440 --> 02:54.260]  [SPEAKER_01]: A six-hour overnight special.
[02:54.600 --> 02:56.620]  [SPEAKER_01]: Mutants in science fiction cinema.
[02:56.960 --> 02:58.280]  [SPEAKER_01]: David Cronenberg.
[02:58.280 --> 02:59.420]  [SPEAKER_01]: Roger Corman.
[02:59.940 --> 03:00.800]  [SPEAKER_01]: John Carpenter.
[03:00.960 --> 03:01.640]  [SPEAKER_01]: Wes Craven.
[03:01.920 --> 03:02.500]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's Monday.
[03:02.760 --> 03:03.740]  [SPEAKER_01]: January 23rd.
[03:04.520 --> 03:04.920]  [SPEAKER_01]: At midnight.
[03:04.920 --> 03:06.860]  [SPEAKER_01]: Pass the syrup, General.
[03:07.900 --> 03:09.500]  [SPEAKER_10]: That's a good idea, Chuck.
[03:09.940 --> 03:11.760]  [SPEAKER_10]: But syrup won't stop them.
[03:12.520 --> 03:12.940]  [SPEAKER_10]: Next.
[03:13.960 --> 03:14.680]  [SPEAKER_17]: Sir?
[03:15.160 --> 03:15.880]  [SPEAKER_10]: Colonel?
[03:16.480 --> 03:17.540]  [SPEAKER_17]: Are you nuts?
[03:18.620 --> 03:22.020]  [SPEAKER_10]: That is just exactly what they want you to believe.
[03:24.740 --> 03:31.640]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, it's three minutes after nine o'clock, and this is not the personal computer show.
[03:31.800 --> 03:33.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: The personal computer show is not on this week.
[03:33.820 --> 03:43.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: Instead, we have an expanded edition of the technology and telephone and computer and Big Brother show known as Off the Hook.
[03:50.170 --> 03:52.070]  [SPEAKER_15]: The telephone keeps ringing.
[03:52.490 --> 03:54.630]  [SPEAKER_15]: So I ripped it off the wall.
[03:55.590 --> 03:57.570]  [SPEAKER_15]: I cut myself while shaving.
[03:58.150 --> 04:00.150]  [SPEAKER_15]: Now I can't make a cough.
[04:01.010 --> 04:02.870]  [SPEAKER_15]: It couldn't get much worse.
[04:03.550 --> 04:05.450]  [SPEAKER_14]: But if they could, they would.
[04:05.710 --> 04:06.450]  [SPEAKER_14]: Bum, did we bump?
[04:06.590 --> 04:08.330]  [SPEAKER_14]: But the best, expect the worst.
[04:08.950 --> 04:10.830]  [SPEAKER_14]: I hope that's understood.
[04:11.030 --> 04:11.870]  [SPEAKER_14]: Bum, did we bump?
[04:51.840 --> 04:53.730]  [SPEAKER_05]: And very good evening to one and all.
[04:53.880 --> 04:54.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: This is Emmanuel Goldstein.
[04:54.910 --> 04:56.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: The program is Off the Hook tonight.
[04:56.080 --> 04:57.290]  [SPEAKER_05]: We are on for two hours.
[04:57.760 --> 05:00.530]  [SPEAKER_05]: Not three hours, as we said two weeks ago.
[05:01.360 --> 05:03.410]  [SPEAKER_05]: But two hours until 11 o'clock.
[05:03.800 --> 05:05.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: And we'll be asking for your support.
[05:05.480 --> 05:07.440]  [SPEAKER_05]: But please, a special favor to me.
[05:07.560 --> 05:09.040]  [SPEAKER_05]: Do not call us right now.
[05:09.230 --> 05:09.410]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh-uh.
[05:09.560 --> 05:10.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: Don't call us.
[05:10.440 --> 05:12.150]  [SPEAKER_05]: Unless you're calling for a misuse program.
[05:12.300 --> 05:14.730]  [SPEAKER_05]: But please don't call us until you hear what we have to say.
[05:15.350 --> 05:19.600]  [SPEAKER_05]: And then you can decide whether or not you want to support such things.
[05:19.730 --> 05:20.680]  [SPEAKER_05]: In the future.
[05:21.680 --> 05:22.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: Simple enough, right?
[05:22.860 --> 05:23.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[05:23.850 --> 05:24.600]  [SPEAKER_05]: This is Off the Hook.
[05:24.740 --> 05:28.240]  [SPEAKER_05]: We come your way every Wednesday night from 10 o'clock to 11 o'clock.
[05:28.460 --> 05:32.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: And we talk about new games with the phone company.
[05:32.680 --> 05:34.280]  [SPEAKER_05]: New games with the Internet.
[05:34.900 --> 05:40.180]  [SPEAKER_05]: And various good and bad things that are happening around the planet.
[05:40.770 --> 05:42.440]  [SPEAKER_05]: And how it affects everybody.
[05:43.100 --> 05:44.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: Everybody listening in one way or another.
[05:45.000 --> 05:46.440]  [SPEAKER_05]: Whether or not you have a computer.
[05:46.580 --> 05:47.780]  [SPEAKER_05]: Whether or not you have a phone.
[05:48.720 --> 05:49.770]  [SPEAKER_05]: One way or another.
[05:50.220 --> 05:51.330]  [SPEAKER_05]: It affects everyone.
[05:52.740 --> 05:53.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[05:54.330 --> 05:55.440]  [SPEAKER_05]: About a year ago.
[05:55.540 --> 05:57.100]  [SPEAKER_05]: It was actually a little less than a year ago.
[05:57.220 --> 06:00.600]  [SPEAKER_05]: We had a fundraiser here at the radio station for this program.
[06:00.650 --> 06:02.500]  [SPEAKER_05]: And we did something rather unprecedented.
[06:02.840 --> 06:05.440]  [SPEAKER_05]: We gave away Internet access as one of our premiums.
[06:05.720 --> 06:11.680]  [SPEAKER_05]: And we did that thanks to an Internet provider in New York City known as escape.com.
[06:11.680 --> 06:15.440]  [SPEAKER_05]: And the system operator of escape is here tonight.
[06:15.680 --> 06:17.560]  [SPEAKER_05]: Roman Kazan, let's see if your microphone is working.
[06:17.710 --> 06:18.150]  [SPEAKER_05]: Hello there.
[06:18.340 --> 06:18.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[06:19.330 --> 06:20.440]  [SPEAKER_05]: You're here tonight.
[06:20.800 --> 06:22.210]  [SPEAKER_05]: Almost a year after that.
[06:22.780 --> 06:26.270]  [SPEAKER_05]: We set some sort of a record last time we tried that.
[06:26.780 --> 06:29.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: So many people called in, wanted Internet access for a full year.
[06:30.520 --> 06:32.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: And it was really...
[06:32.340 --> 06:34.560]  [SPEAKER_05]: I think everybody benefited from that.
[06:34.620 --> 06:35.460]  [SPEAKER_05]: The listeners benefited.
[06:36.100 --> 06:37.830]  [SPEAKER_05]: The radio station certainly benefited.
[06:37.830 --> 06:40.650]  [SPEAKER_05]: I think we brought in something like $10,000 that night.
[06:41.520 --> 06:46.210]  [SPEAKER_05]: And we also got a lot of publicity for your system.
[06:46.520 --> 06:48.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now, it's been several months now.
[06:48.540 --> 06:51.160]  [SPEAKER_05]: And you seem to be growing pretty exponentially.
[06:51.680 --> 06:54.600]  [SPEAKER_05]: How has the system been over the past few months?
[06:54.720 --> 06:55.580]  [SPEAKER_23]: It's been really busy.
[06:55.770 --> 06:59.210]  [SPEAKER_23]: I've been answering close to 60 to 70 customer service calls a day.
[06:59.440 --> 06:59.890]  [SPEAKER_23]: Wow.
[07:00.770 --> 07:02.420]  [SPEAKER_23]: I have an intern who works for me now.
[07:02.520 --> 07:03.900]  [SPEAKER_23]: And he has been helping out a lot.
[07:04.620 --> 07:07.540]  [SPEAKER_23]: And we just went through major upgrades in the last few weeks.
[07:07.540 --> 07:10.740]  [SPEAKER_23]: We upgraded to a T1 and ISDN services.
[07:11.060 --> 07:11.740]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now, okay.
[07:12.060 --> 07:13.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: I was going to bring that up.
[07:13.420 --> 07:15.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: And now that you've mentioned a T1, tell us.
[07:16.120 --> 07:18.680]  [SPEAKER_05]: Tell the audience out there, what in God's name is a T1?
[07:18.680 --> 07:22.560]  [SPEAKER_05]: How does it relate to somebody picking up a telephone?
[07:22.710 --> 07:24.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: Compare it to a single telephone line.
[07:24.400 --> 07:25.040]  [SPEAKER_05]: What is a T1?
[07:25.220 --> 07:31.520]  [SPEAKER_23]: Well, in the past, we had a 56 kilobit, which allowed 5,600 characters per second to be transferred.
[07:31.890 --> 07:34.150]  [SPEAKER_23]: A T1 is 24 times faster.
[07:34.720 --> 07:35.100]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[07:35.660 --> 07:39.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: So that allows for more people to be able to get on at the same time.
[07:39.210 --> 07:42.420]  [SPEAKER_23]: In other words, we have room for more people.
[07:42.520 --> 07:45.460]  [SPEAKER_23]: We have room more than what we could handle.
[07:45.580 --> 07:50.620]  [SPEAKER_23]: I mean, basically, we could have a lot more customers than what we have right now with the bandwidth we have.
[07:51.100 --> 07:51.890]  [SPEAKER_17]: Mm-hmm.
[07:52.160 --> 07:52.360]  [SPEAKER_23]: Wow.
[07:52.360 --> 07:52.720]  [SPEAKER_23]: Does that make sense?
[07:53.000 --> 07:53.150]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[07:53.280 --> 07:53.770]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, it does.
[07:54.360 --> 07:57.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: It means that, I guess, your lines are becoming busier.
[07:58.080 --> 07:58.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: Is that how it...
[07:58.980 --> 08:01.240]  [SPEAKER_23]: Yeah, right now we're waiting for an order from NYNEX.
[08:01.420 --> 08:03.330]  [SPEAKER_23]: We're supposed to have an additional 30 lines.
[08:03.330 --> 08:04.650]  [SPEAKER_23]: We ordered about two months ago.
[08:04.780 --> 08:05.680]  [SPEAKER_23]: But you know NYNEX.
[08:05.840 --> 08:06.100]  [SPEAKER_23]: Oh, NYNEX is...
[08:06.100 --> 08:06.980]  [SPEAKER_23]: We have to wait for everything.
[08:07.330 --> 08:09.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: Are you implying that NYNEX is difficult to work with?
[08:09.960 --> 08:10.460]  [SPEAKER_23]: Oh, boy.
[08:10.740 --> 08:14.770]  [SPEAKER_23]: They're trying to install one of my 30 lines, and they broke existing lines that I have right now.
[08:16.280 --> 08:20.740]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now, how does NYNEX break their own phone lines?
[08:20.860 --> 08:23.710]  [SPEAKER_23]: And then they say they're going to busy out those lines, and they don't busy it out.
[08:23.860 --> 08:24.150]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh-huh.
[08:25.800 --> 08:26.220]  [SPEAKER_23]: Wow.
[08:26.300 --> 08:27.800]  [SPEAKER_23]: But that's another story.
[08:28.020 --> 08:28.240]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh-huh.
[08:29.240 --> 08:32.600]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, now, Escape is...
[08:32.600 --> 08:34.440]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, you have ISDN access.
[08:35.560 --> 08:36.640]  [SPEAKER_05]: Explain to us what that is.
[08:36.740 --> 08:41.160]  [SPEAKER_23]: ISDN is dial-up phone lines that are digital, that run at 64 kilobits.
[08:41.560 --> 08:53.500]  [SPEAKER_23]: Technically, they have two channels, and you can connect up to 128 kilobits, which a standard modem line, or a standard normal voice telephone line, the fastest modem that exists right now, is 28 kilobits.
[08:53.860 --> 08:54.180]  [SPEAKER_17]: Uh-huh.
[08:55.400 --> 09:04.360]  [SPEAKER_23]: And basically, that means it runs about two times faster at 64 kilobits, and four times faster at 128 kilobits, and we're offering that to our customers.
[09:04.680 --> 09:05.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: I see.
[09:05.080 --> 09:05.210]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[09:05.210 --> 09:07.040]  [SPEAKER_05]: So what kind of person would be interested in ISDN?
[09:07.440 --> 09:09.680]  [SPEAKER_05]: Someone who wants to go on the Internet fast.
[09:09.960 --> 09:10.160]  [SPEAKER_23]: Uh-huh.
[09:10.600 --> 09:17.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: And ISDN is, within a couple of years, I guess it would be something that a lot of us will be using.
[09:17.160 --> 09:18.380]  [SPEAKER_23]: It is all technology.
[09:18.380 --> 09:20.330]  [SPEAKER_23]: In many European countries, that's all they use.
[09:20.500 --> 09:20.660]  [SPEAKER_23]: Yeah.
[09:21.360 --> 09:22.780]  [SPEAKER_23]: We're last for everything, I guess.
[09:22.940 --> 09:24.440]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, it's because we're so big, you know.
[09:24.500 --> 09:30.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: We have to allow everybody in the far reaches of the country to catch up first.
[09:31.440 --> 09:35.060]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, you also have someone here with you that is a user of your system.
[09:35.260 --> 09:36.680]  [SPEAKER_05]: You want to introduce this person?
[09:36.680 --> 09:46.140]  [SPEAKER_23]: Yeah, well, basically, we've been growing a lot, and other systems have been growing off of ESCAPE with, like, you know, they basically get a link, a dedicated line, over to ESCAPE, and then they'll have their own system on the Internet.
[09:46.780 --> 09:49.000]  [SPEAKER_23]: One of those systems is like a virtual mud.
[09:49.260 --> 09:50.820]  [SPEAKER_23]: It's a city, and it's called...
[09:50.820 --> 09:51.960]  [SPEAKER_23]: What is it called?
[09:52.360 --> 09:53.720]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's called Cybersphere.
[09:54.400 --> 09:56.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, and that's a virtual city, you say?
[09:57.220 --> 09:57.980]  [SPEAKER_24]: Oh, yes.
[09:58.600 --> 10:06.280]  [SPEAKER_24]: I run a site, cybersphere.vb.com, and on the site, we have a virtual reality.
[10:06.460 --> 10:18.600]  [SPEAKER_24]: It's a textual-based virtual reality multi-user game, and users can tell that in, and they can create their own characters, and they can roam around a city.
[10:19.640 --> 10:33.860]  [SPEAKER_24]: We have different areas of it called, for example, the Night City or the Wastelands, and these are all programmed in an object-oriented language called Moo, for mud, for object-oriented.
[10:34.240 --> 10:35.680]  [SPEAKER_05]: You say virtual reality.
[10:35.920 --> 10:40.640]  [SPEAKER_05]: This is not the virtual reality you put a helmet and gloves on, is it?
[10:40.820 --> 10:41.820]  [SPEAKER_24]: Oh, correct, correct.
[10:41.980 --> 10:44.560]  [SPEAKER_24]: This is a text-based adventure-type game.
[10:44.740 --> 10:44.940]  [SPEAKER_24]: Okay.
[10:45.760 --> 10:46.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: All right.
[10:46.360 --> 10:49.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: I guess that'll happen in the future sometime when we have virtual reality over the net.
[10:51.380 --> 10:56.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: But what can users do once they access you?
[10:57.040 --> 10:58.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: Give us a scenario, a typical scenario.
[10:59.320 --> 11:00.900]  [SPEAKER_24]: Oh, a user will dial in.
[11:01.100 --> 11:08.920]  [SPEAKER_24]: They'll be able to create their own character and describe themselves textually and roam around.
[11:08.920 --> 11:30.380]  [SPEAKER_24]: For example, they'll be able to use commands like north, south, east, west, be able to communicate with other users in a chat system type of scenario that some people may be familiar with and interact with characters that are in the game that are computer-generated and roam around through different rooms,
[11:31.080 --> 11:34.100]  [SPEAKER_24]: purchase clothing, kill other players.
[11:34.700 --> 11:36.880]  [SPEAKER_24]: That's a very interesting topic.
[11:36.900 --> 11:39.280]  [SPEAKER_24]: A lot of people have formed gangs and they roam around.
[11:39.500 --> 11:41.400]  [SPEAKER_05]: There's gangs roaming around your system?
[11:41.400 --> 11:42.160]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yes, there are.
[11:42.180 --> 11:43.040]  [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, great.
[11:43.040 --> 11:44.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: I guess there'll be another book coming out about that.
[11:46.060 --> 11:49.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: So, okay, now, people on the Internet now, how can they access your particular MUD?
[11:50.060 --> 12:00.400]  [SPEAKER_24]: Oh, so right now, if you have an Internet account, you can type telnet cybersphere.vv.com and the port number is 7777.
[12:01.220 --> 12:04.580]  [SPEAKER_05]: So they'd separate that with a space and type 47s afterwards.
[12:04.800 --> 12:05.120]  [SPEAKER_24]: Right.
[12:05.360 --> 12:05.640]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[12:05.920 --> 12:07.600]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now, you say you run it off of Escape.
[12:07.600 --> 12:08.050]  [SPEAKER_05]: Right.
[12:08.680 --> 12:14.720]  [SPEAKER_24]: We have a dedicated 28.8 kilobit line through Escape.
[12:15.620 --> 12:16.100]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[12:16.360 --> 12:22.500]  [SPEAKER_05]: And that's a good example of one of the things you can do with Internet access if you want to build upon it a little bit more.
[12:22.640 --> 12:26.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: There's straight Internet access and then there's making something more out of it.
[12:26.620 --> 12:30.020]  [SPEAKER_05]: And you don't have to have your own site.
[12:30.020 --> 12:33.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: You can sort of latch into another site.
[12:33.720 --> 12:34.200]  [SPEAKER_23]: Correct.
[12:34.200 --> 12:36.880]  [SPEAKER_23]: Well, everyone latches into each other on the Internet.
[12:37.140 --> 12:37.860]  [SPEAKER_23]: That's the whole point.
[12:38.080 --> 12:39.600]  [SPEAKER_23]: They're all interconnected like that.
[12:40.180 --> 12:44.400]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now, he needs your site, though, in order to be connected to the net.
[12:44.440 --> 12:48.800]  [SPEAKER_23]: And I need another site to be connected to the net and that other site needs another site to be connected to the net as well.
[12:49.000 --> 12:49.220]  [SPEAKER_05]: Right.
[12:49.360 --> 12:53.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: And that's the nature of the entire Internet spreading throughout the planet.
[12:54.000 --> 12:54.180]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[12:54.260 --> 12:56.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, now, this is what we're going to do tonight.
[12:57.140 --> 12:57.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: All right.
[12:57.740 --> 13:03.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: We're not doing the same thing we did last year only because if we did that, Roman, you would probably go out of business.
[13:05.080 --> 13:05.480]  [SPEAKER_23]: Yeah.
[13:06.820 --> 13:10.520]  [SPEAKER_23]: And it will be very difficult to get in touch with everyone with the amount of work I have now.
[13:10.620 --> 13:10.800]  [SPEAKER_05]: Right.
[13:10.920 --> 13:14.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: I think you got something like 100 new users last time.
[13:14.640 --> 13:21.220]  [SPEAKER_05]: And hopefully those people that signed on last time will continue to use the Internet through Escape because...
[13:21.220 --> 13:24.240]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, I mean, hopefully they're satisfied with it.
[13:24.340 --> 13:26.120]  [SPEAKER_23]: Oh, they seem to be all satisfied.
[13:26.400 --> 13:27.440]  [SPEAKER_23]: They seem to be really happy.
[13:27.620 --> 13:29.100]  [SPEAKER_23]: They call up with questions all the time.
[13:29.240 --> 13:29.900]  [SPEAKER_23]: They're all excited.
[13:29.900 --> 13:30.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[13:30.640 --> 13:38.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: So tonight, and I caution those of you that are far away from the phone to drop whatever it is you're doing and get closer to the phone because we have a limited number of these.
[13:38.980 --> 13:44.100]  [SPEAKER_05]: For a pledge of $100, you can get a full year's access to Internet.
[13:44.100 --> 13:47.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: But, here's the but, there's only five of these available.
[13:48.080 --> 13:48.720]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's right.
[13:48.900 --> 13:58.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: So it's going to, once those phones fill up and people pledge for those five, there's not going to be any more that we're giving out for this entire pledge drive.
[13:58.700 --> 14:00.240]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's the limit that we put on this.
[14:00.480 --> 14:04.240]  [SPEAKER_05]: So, 212-279-3400 is our telephone number.
[14:04.500 --> 14:09.460]  [SPEAKER_05]: For a pledge of $100, you can get full Internet access for a year.
[14:09.660 --> 14:10.140]  [SPEAKER_05]: Unlimited.
[14:10.380 --> 14:11.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: No time limits.
[14:11.340 --> 14:17.100]  [SPEAKER_05]: You can call up tomorrow and keep your modem connected until a year from now if that's what you want to do.
[14:17.140 --> 14:18.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: But, please don't do that.
[14:19.360 --> 14:23.500]  [SPEAKER_05]: Unless you really have a lot of communication to get out of the way.
[14:23.500 --> 14:26.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: Anyway, we seem to have three lines lit.
[14:26.720 --> 14:33.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: So that means there's only two of these left if these people are, in fact, calling to claim these and not calling to tell us to stop doing this.
[14:33.560 --> 14:33.680]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yes?
[14:33.860 --> 14:41.420]  [SPEAKER_23]: Yeah, the retail price for this, so what we charge is, not retail, but the price we charge is $16.50, which is $200 a year.
[14:41.600 --> 14:43.280]  [SPEAKER_23]: This is half price.
[14:43.580 --> 14:45.560]  [SPEAKER_23]: I don't understand why it's so cheap here.
[14:45.560 --> 15:02.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: If you go through other Internet providers, and I won't name too many names, but, you know, names like CompuServe and Prodigy and those groups that claim to offer Internet access but really don't because there's all kinds of restrictions on what you can and cannot do,
[15:03.940 --> 15:09.220]  [SPEAKER_05]: well, those ones will cost you quite a lot more, quite a lot more.
[15:09.380 --> 15:16.020]  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, I've never even added it up myself, but we're talking about many hundreds more because they bill you by the hour.
[15:16.160 --> 15:17.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: There's no such thing as unlimited time.
[15:18.140 --> 15:21.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's kind of the whole point of the Internet is there's unlimited time.
[15:22.040 --> 15:29.560]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, you can not have to worry about distance, about how long it takes you to comprehend something or to program something.
[15:30.300 --> 15:34.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: And that's why it's good to have something like this available.
[15:35.420 --> 15:41.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm going to say, since all the lines are lit up, that it's probably safe to assume that all of these have been taken at this point.
[15:42.920 --> 15:46.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: And for those of you who didn't make it, we will have something else.
[15:46.560 --> 15:50.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: It won't be the same thing, but we're going to have something else in the latter part of the show.
[15:51.880 --> 15:54.720]  [SPEAKER_05]: Thanks for those people that did call in and take advantage of this offer.
[15:55.980 --> 16:03.500]  [SPEAKER_05]: And for those of you who didn't make it, perhaps you might want to invest in speed dialing for the next time we offer something like this because you would have gotten through much faster that way.
[16:04.900 --> 16:05.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: All right.
[16:05.820 --> 16:09.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: Thanks, Roman, for the generous offer to our listeners.
[16:10.000 --> 16:10.320]  [SPEAKER_23]: Thank you.
[16:10.380 --> 16:12.680]  [SPEAKER_23]: Well, if they didn't get through, they could always call us directly.
[16:12.900 --> 16:13.560]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's true, too.
[16:13.560 --> 16:16.600]  [SPEAKER_05]: If you still want Internet access, what's the phone number for Escape?
[16:16.600 --> 16:19.240]  [SPEAKER_23]: You can reach Escape customer service between 11 a.m.
[16:19.260 --> 16:20.060]  [SPEAKER_23]: and 8 p.m.
[16:20.220 --> 16:28.040]  [SPEAKER_23]: Monday through Saturday at area code 212, telephone number 888-8780.
[16:28.440 --> 16:29.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: Right gates, don't you?
[16:29.780 --> 16:30.680]  [SPEAKER_23]: Oh, my favorite number.
[16:30.700 --> 16:31.640]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, well, you got it.
[16:32.120 --> 16:38.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: All right, so that's to reach Escape in case you want to get a hold of the net in that particular way.
[16:38.840 --> 16:41.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: And you charge $16.50 a month on limited access.
[16:41.700 --> 16:44.280]  [SPEAKER_23]: $16.50 for either Shell accounts or Slip accounts.
[16:44.360 --> 16:48.000]  [SPEAKER_23]: And as far as I know, we're the least expensive in New York City area for Slip.
[16:48.280 --> 16:48.580]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[16:48.860 --> 16:53.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, good luck to you, and we'll be checking in to see how things are going in the weeks ahead.
[16:53.200 --> 16:55.560]  [SPEAKER_23]: Thank you, and let's wish WBAI luck this time.
[16:55.720 --> 16:55.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[16:56.220 --> 16:56.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[16:56.700 --> 17:01.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, with generous people and generous listeners, we don't need luck.
[17:01.660 --> 17:02.640]  [SPEAKER_05]: We just need you.
[17:02.720 --> 17:06.270]  [SPEAKER_05]: We just need you to help us out and give us a call at 212-279-3400.
[17:06.270 --> 17:16.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now, we don't have any more of these, I guess, seeing as how all those lines are lit pretty steady and either the Tali people are having private conversations with them or they are taking information.
[17:17.490 --> 17:21.770]  [SPEAKER_05]: Then we will be giving out some other neat things in this hour.
[17:21.840 --> 17:30.560]  [SPEAKER_05]: In fact, we're going to be making history here tonight because we're going to be doing something that has never been done before on the radio, at least not on this particular radio station, as far as I know, and I could be wrong.
[17:30.560 --> 17:41.030]  [SPEAKER_05]: I could be wrong here, but we're going to be playing an excerpt of something that happened last summer at the Hackers on Planet Earth conference.
[17:41.540 --> 17:49.220]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's the opening address by Robert Steele, formerly of the CIA, Central Intelligence Agency, in case some of you don't know that.
[17:49.900 --> 17:52.580]  [SPEAKER_05]: He said some very interesting things in his opening remarks.
[17:52.580 --> 17:54.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: We have some excerpts of those.
[17:54.340 --> 18:14.240]  [SPEAKER_05]: And if you're interested in receiving a videotape, a videotape copy of that particular speech, as well as the opening remarks and a couple other things that we won't be playing tonight, that will be available as a premium for those of you calling in, in addition to a one-year subscription to 2600 Magazine.
[18:14.380 --> 18:29.040]  [SPEAKER_05]: For a pledge of $100, you can get both a one-year subscription and a copy of the videotape of Robert Steele's opening remarks at the Hackers on Planet Earth conference, which took place last August right here in New York City.
[18:29.140 --> 18:33.580]  [SPEAKER_05]: Kind of made history for the hacker world because nothing like that had ever been done before.
[18:34.360 --> 18:39.460]  [SPEAKER_05]: So, what we're going to do now is we're going to cut to the mini-disc.
[18:39.700 --> 18:41.040]  [SPEAKER_05]: We've never done this before.
[18:41.040 --> 18:44.320]  [SPEAKER_05]: We've never played a mini-disc on the radio at this radio station.
[18:45.180 --> 18:50.760]  [SPEAKER_05]: Mini-disc, for those of you that don't know, this is what a mini-disc sounds like dropped from one foot above the table.
[18:51.620 --> 18:52.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: All right?
[18:52.500 --> 18:54.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now, that's...
[18:56.100 --> 18:57.020]  [SPEAKER_05]: This is radio.
[18:57.160 --> 18:59.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: You can't show it on the radio, so you have to do things like that.
[19:00.460 --> 19:05.200]  [SPEAKER_05]: And we're going to also insert it into the mini-disc machine, and you can hear what it sounds like as we insert it.
[19:06.980 --> 19:07.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: There.
[19:07.660 --> 19:11.560]  [SPEAKER_05]: And it makes little noises as you press the buttons.
[19:13.260 --> 19:14.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: I don't know if you can hear that.
[19:15.820 --> 19:17.240]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's very similar to a CD.
[19:18.060 --> 19:18.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: Very similar.
[19:19.140 --> 19:20.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: Except it's smaller.
[19:20.120 --> 19:21.060]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's two and a half inches.
[19:22.320 --> 19:24.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: And you can record on it, which is really neat.
[19:24.860 --> 19:26.780]  [SPEAKER_05]: So, we took this from the video tape.
[19:26.880 --> 19:28.560]  [SPEAKER_05]: We dubbed it directly onto a mini-disc.
[19:29.200 --> 19:37.400]  [SPEAKER_05]: And we're going to play that mini-disc now live over the air, including the intro to the Hope Conference, which is a piece by Jello Biafra.
[19:38.680 --> 19:42.600]  [SPEAKER_05]: And we'll see if we have actual audio coming up from that.
[19:44.120 --> 19:44.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: There we go.
[19:45.600 --> 19:48.140]  [SPEAKER_05]: All right, we are now hearing the beginning.
[19:50.120 --> 19:51.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: And we'll be back in a little while.
[19:52.100 --> 19:53.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: Again, if you're interested in a...
[19:55.060 --> 20:04.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: a one-year subscription to 2600 Magazine, the Hacker Quarterly, plus a copy of this video tape, which obviously you can't see on the radio, for a pledge of $100.
[20:06.400 --> 20:07.680]  [SPEAKER_05]: They can be yours.
[20:07.860 --> 20:10.040]  [SPEAKER_05]: 212-279-3400.
[20:10.200 --> 20:11.680]  [SPEAKER_05]: You can call during the speech.
[20:59.750 --> 21:04.050]  [SPEAKER_13]: We interrupt this program with a special bulletin.
[21:04.150 --> 21:09.290]  [SPEAKER_13]: America is now under martial law.
[21:10.150 --> 21:14.830]  [SPEAKER_13]: All constitutional rights have been suspended.
[21:15.550 --> 21:17.310]  [SPEAKER_13]: Stay in your homes.
[21:17.730 --> 21:24.350]  [SPEAKER_13]: Do not attempt to contact loved ones, insurance agents, or attorneys.
[21:25.170 --> 21:26.290]  [SPEAKER_13]: Shut up.
[21:26.770 --> 21:31.290]  [SPEAKER_13]: Do not attempt to think or depression may occur.
[21:31.930 --> 21:33.510]  [SPEAKER_13]: Stay in your homes.
[21:33.510 --> 21:36.190]  [SPEAKER_13]: Curfew is at 7 p.m.
[21:36.410 --> 21:38.190]  [SPEAKER_13]: sharp after work.
[21:38.740 --> 21:45.510]  [SPEAKER_13]: Anyone caught outside the gates of their subdivision sectors after curfew will...
[21:46.170 --> 21:47.230]  [SPEAKER_13]: Do not.
[21:48.250 --> 21:48.740]  [SPEAKER_13]: Remain...
[21:49.230 --> 21:51.110]  [SPEAKER_13]: Do not panic.
[21:51.530 --> 21:58.130]  [SPEAKER_13]: Your neighborhood watch officer will be by to collect urine samples in the morning.
[21:58.130 --> 22:06.850]  [SPEAKER_13]: Anyone caught interfering with the collection of urine samples will be shot.
[22:07.430 --> 22:11.770]  [SPEAKER_13]: Houses were inspected for trace elements that noon.
[22:12.210 --> 22:27.270]  [SPEAKER_13]: Anyone who fails to display the required embossed black velvet Mexican painting of Alexander Haig on their living room wall will be shot.
[22:28.920 --> 22:34.890]  [SPEAKER_13]: Cameras and surveillance equipment will be posted on all lampposts and streetlights.
[22:35.430 --> 22:46.470]  [SPEAKER_13]: Anyone failing to attend required worship services on Sunday will be promptly arrested and dispatched to a re-education resort.
[22:46.810 --> 22:49.450]  [SPEAKER_13]: Stay in your homes.
[22:50.030 --> 22:51.390]  [SPEAKER_13]: Remain calm.
[22:51.970 --> 22:56.250]  [SPEAKER_13]: The number one enemy of progress is questions.
[22:57.230 --> 23:02.610]  [SPEAKER_13]: National security is more important than individual will.
[23:02.610 --> 23:07.730]  [SPEAKER_13]: All sports broadcasts will proceed as normal.
[23:08.270 --> 23:13.670]  [SPEAKER_13]: No more than two people may gather anywhere without permission.
[23:14.670 --> 23:15.140]  [SPEAKER_13]: You...
[23:15.610 --> 23:18.710]  [SPEAKER_13]: ...scribed by your boss or supervisor.
[23:19.430 --> 23:20.690]  [SPEAKER_13]: Shut up!
[23:21.010 --> 23:22.070]  [SPEAKER_13]: Be happy!
[23:22.630 --> 23:25.170]  [SPEAKER_13]: Obey all orders without question.
[23:25.630 --> 23:28.730]  [SPEAKER_13]: The comfort you've demanded is now mandatory.
[23:29.410 --> 23:30.330]  [SPEAKER_13]: Be happy!
[23:30.330 --> 23:31.770]  [SPEAKER_13]: At last!
[23:32.450 --> 23:35.170]  [SPEAKER_13]: Everything is done for you!
[23:43.780 --> 23:44.680]  [SPEAKER_03]: Nobody move.
[23:44.880 --> 23:45.620]  [SPEAKER_03]: You're all under arrest.
[23:46.840 --> 23:47.880]  [SPEAKER_03]: You think I'm kidding?
[23:50.260 --> 23:50.780]  [SPEAKER_26]: Six.
[24:02.200 --> 24:03.580]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's kind of scary, isn't it?
[24:03.720 --> 24:06.620]  [SPEAKER_03]: The good news is the power has shifted to individuals.
[24:12.030 --> 24:14.110]  [SPEAKER_03]: Actually, I have notes on what Eric wants me to say.
[24:16.850 --> 24:17.370]  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[24:23.150 --> 24:26.890]  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm going to talk a little bit about who am I, why am I here, and how can I help.
[24:29.350 --> 24:32.130]  [SPEAKER_03]: Then I'm going to talk about some remarks that I made.
[24:38.520 --> 24:39.380]  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, thanks.
[24:39.620 --> 24:40.980]  [SPEAKER_03]: Please, shout out if I fade.
[24:42.720 --> 24:47.680]  [SPEAKER_03]: And then we will go into some interactive questions and answers.
[24:47.680 --> 24:50.920]  [SPEAKER_03]: And we can recognize the suits by their niche.
[24:51.440 --> 24:54.980]  [SPEAKER_03]: So it'll be a ratio of one suit question to four hacker questions.
[24:55.820 --> 24:57.660]  [SPEAKER_03]: And I'm authorized to enforce that.
[24:58.940 --> 24:59.540]  [SPEAKER_03]: All right.
[24:59.760 --> 25:00.980]  [SPEAKER_03]: Who am I and why am I here?
[25:03.280 --> 25:10.180]  [SPEAKER_03]: You've got to admit, this is a pretty neat trick to produce a suit that talks your language or that is your friend.
[25:12.920 --> 25:20.320]  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm here because when I worked on an artificial intelligence project at the Central Intelligence Agency, I read a lot.
[25:21.520 --> 25:24.580]  [SPEAKER_03]: And one of the things I read was Howard Reingold's Tools for Thought.
[25:25.160 --> 25:28.020]  [SPEAKER_03]: And the other thing I read was Shirley Turkle's My Second Self.
[25:28.660 --> 25:30.780]  [SPEAKER_03]: And those books literally changed my life.
[25:34.200 --> 25:37.160]  [SPEAKER_03]: Shirley's book gave me an understanding of hacking.
[25:37.160 --> 25:38.880]  [SPEAKER_03]: I am not a technical hacker.
[25:39.500 --> 25:41.880]  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm an unemployment agency for hackers.
[25:43.000 --> 25:45.920]  [SPEAKER_03]: And I do try and help link people together.
[25:46.240 --> 25:54.400]  [SPEAKER_03]: But Shirley Turkle, with her book on MIT and the PDP and stuff, really made the point that hacking is an elegant piece of work.
[25:54.940 --> 25:56.040]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's not a criminal act.
[25:56.500 --> 26:04.700]  [SPEAKER_03]: And all these media people and all these government people that are going around saying hackers are criminals and we need to break them down.
[26:04.700 --> 26:05.880]  [SPEAKER_03]: All these system operators.
[26:06.000 --> 26:09.800]  [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, system operators used to be really smart people that had built the machines they were operating.
[26:10.140 --> 26:11.900]  [SPEAKER_03]: Now they're a bunch of dumb administrators.
[26:13.220 --> 26:16.200]  [SPEAKER_03]: And they get real upset when someone shows up in their system.
[26:16.380 --> 26:19.020]  [SPEAKER_03]: And they think you should legislate that person away.
[26:19.260 --> 26:20.560]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, it doesn't work that way.
[26:22.140 --> 26:26.240]  [SPEAKER_03]: So, that book, those two books kind of got me started on a path.
[26:26.360 --> 26:32.720]  [SPEAKER_03]: And ultimately, I was asked by the Marine Corps to resign from the Central Intelligence Agency and serve as the senior civilian standing up to the Marine Corps Intelligence Center.
[26:33.200 --> 26:34.120]  [SPEAKER_03]: And I did that.
[26:36.820 --> 26:38.420]  [SPEAKER_03]: Top Secret Classified System.
[26:39.000 --> 26:41.660]  [SPEAKER_03]: And I talked a little bit about this earlier, so I won't belabor it.
[26:41.700 --> 26:49.900]  [SPEAKER_03]: The bottom line is, after a lifetime of collecting secrets, I suddenly realized that most of my secrets were worthless in terms of getting real work done.
[26:50.540 --> 26:59.800]  [SPEAKER_03]: And when I did a cost analysis and looked at LexisNexis and BRS and EasyNet and back then, Internet was in its infancy in terms of content.
[26:59.800 --> 27:01.100]  [SPEAKER_03]: It was mostly chatter.
[27:02.160 --> 27:08.360]  [SPEAKER_03]: But I found that for $20,000 a year, I could answer 80% of the intelligence requirements to my general officers.
[27:08.480 --> 27:12.980]  [SPEAKER_03]: And the beauty of it was the product was unclassified, which meant it could be shared with just about anybody.
[27:15.400 --> 27:25.800]  [SPEAKER_03]: And I shared this with a member, a staff, a Marine reservist who was on the House Permanent Select Committee for Intelligence, and he wrote into the National Security Act in 1992, an office for open-source exploitation.
[27:26.180 --> 27:33.780]  [SPEAKER_03]: The Director of Central Intelligence was required to have an open-source intelligence task force, and he just didn't get it.
[27:34.000 --> 27:36.720]  [SPEAKER_03]: Now, bear in mind, intelligence has always used open-sources.
[27:36.720 --> 27:45.360]  [SPEAKER_03]: But in the 60s and 70s, when we started getting into fancy satellites and clandestine ops against the Soviets, we kind of lost sight of our origins.
[27:46.480 --> 27:57.780]  [SPEAKER_03]: The OSS, Miles Copeland's book Without Cloak and Dagger talks about how when the OSS was first formed, they had all these lunatic requirements from the State Department, the Pentagon, and so on, and they put a guy in a room with the New York Times.
[27:58.140 --> 28:05.380]  [SPEAKER_03]: And his job was to use the New York Times to answer these questions and just pretend it came from a very complex system of risky agents.
[28:06.060 --> 28:06.940]  [SPEAKER_03]: It worked!
[28:07.740 --> 28:10.920]  [SPEAKER_03]: It became the most important unit in the new CIA.
[28:12.780 --> 28:14.060]  [SPEAKER_03]: And we lost sight of that.
[28:15.000 --> 28:17.240]  [SPEAKER_03]: We got too wrapped up in technical collection.
[28:17.240 --> 28:18.920]  [SPEAKER_03]: We got too wrapped up in denied areas.
[28:19.020 --> 28:19.880]  [SPEAKER_03]: We forgot the basics.
[28:21.380 --> 28:25.020]  [SPEAKER_03]: So for me, working for the Marine Corps was a real privilege and I learned a lot.
[28:25.320 --> 28:26.780]  [SPEAKER_03]: But Gates just didn't get it.
[28:27.420 --> 28:41.240]  [SPEAKER_03]: So I asked my general officer, actually asked my SES equivalent, for permission to run an international symposium on my own time to more or less jumpstart the issue of open-source intelligence.
[28:42.440 --> 28:43.400]  [SPEAKER_03]: And I got permission.
[28:43.660 --> 28:53.280]  [SPEAKER_03]: I met the requirements of SECNAV instruction 5000, which is that you declare your interest, you take no money from the Marine Corps, and your supervisor agrees it's in the best interest of the government.
[28:53.600 --> 28:54.920]  [SPEAKER_03]: This is where Howard comes in.
[28:55.300 --> 28:56.280]  [SPEAKER_03]: I tracked him down.
[28:56.440 --> 28:58.440]  [SPEAKER_03]: I had no idea what a wild man he was.
[28:58.640 --> 29:01.060]  [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, Tools for Thought is a very sane, rational book.
[29:01.540 --> 29:06.740]  [SPEAKER_03]: And nowhere in there do you see anything about painted boots and magicians' clothes and stuff like that.
[29:07.900 --> 29:09.200]  [SPEAKER_03]: But I tracked Howard down.
[29:09.340 --> 29:10.360]  [SPEAKER_03]: I got him to agree to speak.
[29:10.540 --> 29:19.640]  [SPEAKER_03]: I pulled together people like Bob Kahn, Jake Keyworth, Science Advisor of the President, Paul Strassman, Admiral Studeman honored us with his presence and made some very sensible remarks.
[29:19.840 --> 29:21.240]  [SPEAKER_03]: And don't misunderstand me.
[29:21.300 --> 29:23.420]  [SPEAKER_03]: I am a strong supporter of the intelligence community.
[29:23.420 --> 29:25.760]  [SPEAKER_03]: I think it needs to maintain its present level of funding.
[29:26.240 --> 29:32.500]  [SPEAKER_03]: I just think that Jim Woolsey has failed miserably at reinventing intelligence and getting it back to basics.
[29:33.220 --> 29:37.380]  [SPEAKER_03]: So please, I am not in any way criticizing the intelligence community as a whole.
[29:37.480 --> 29:44.780]  [SPEAKER_03]: I just think they need to get a life and come into the modern age.
[29:44.880 --> 29:49.840]  [SPEAKER_03]: You know, it used to be the intelligence community with its satellites and stuff used to be like an oasis in the desert.
[29:50.300 --> 30:00.700]  [SPEAKER_03]: But now they built a cement bunker around that oasis and they don't realize that someone's come along and watered the desert and all these private sector information capabilities have blossomed.
[30:00.980 --> 30:08.260]  [SPEAKER_03]: And so their answer to taking advantage of that is to drill a little tiny hole in the cement bunker and stick a straw through it and suck on the Internet.
[30:08.940 --> 30:09.180]  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay?
[30:09.540 --> 30:15.160]  [SPEAKER_03]: And it's going to take them five to ten years to really come up to speed if they continue with that approach.
[30:15.400 --> 30:31.440]  [SPEAKER_03]: Anyway, to make a long story short, I got Howard there and Howard's condition for agreeing to speak outside of a few little things like money was that I write an article for Whole Earth Review called Ethics, Psychology, Evolution, and Intelligence, an alternate paradigm for national intelligence.
[30:31.580 --> 30:41.600]  [SPEAKER_03]: The whole idea was to create a citizens intelligence core to put the power in the hands of the people, to allow people to be able to make informed judgments by having access.
[30:41.820 --> 30:45.080]  [SPEAKER_03]: This includes government bureaucrats that are starved for information.
[30:45.520 --> 31:00.080]  [SPEAKER_03]: The special assistant to the President of the United States and the National Economic Council told the Open Source Lunch Club that for economic strategy and economic decision making in the White House, the intelligence community is useless because it's not allowed to look at the automobile industry and so on.
[31:00.220 --> 31:03.320]  [SPEAKER_03]: And the rest of the government is lousy at the business of intelligence.
[31:03.640 --> 31:09.320]  [SPEAKER_03]: They don't know how to do collection management and distill products and put them together and get them up into decision memoranda.
[31:09.580 --> 31:14.260]  [SPEAKER_03]: So what we have is a really dumb government going through the motions along the machine model lines.
[31:15.440 --> 31:25.900]  [SPEAKER_03]: Anyway, that article subsequently led to my going to Hackers 8-0 and Hackers 9-0 and I know that the management here doesn't recognize the Lake Tahoe hackers.
[31:26.660 --> 31:29.800]  [SPEAKER_03]: They're the middle-aged guys that are now legal and making money.
[31:32.180 --> 31:35.280]  [SPEAKER_03]: But that really started me getting to know people.
[31:35.520 --> 31:36.340]  [SPEAKER_03]: I went out to Europe.
[31:36.680 --> 31:37.960]  [SPEAKER_03]: RAP was very good to me.
[31:38.320 --> 31:48.440]  [SPEAKER_03]: I gave a talk there, got to know Emmanuel and the 2600 environment and in fact when I started my conference I started bringing hackers in.
[31:50.360 --> 31:52.080]  [SPEAKER_03]: And this is one of the points I want to make.
[31:52.500 --> 31:59.080]  [SPEAKER_03]: The suits that attended my conference were absolutely flabbergasted at the hackers.
[31:59.460 --> 32:09.220]  [SPEAKER_03]: I mean one of them Tsutsu, the Japanese guy that does cellular hacking talked to an SCS, that's a general officer equivalent from DIA and the guy came back to me later bug-eyed and he said I didn't realize.
[32:09.820 --> 32:24.220]  [SPEAKER_03]: I mean he had this perception of hackers as sleazeball criminals and I think part of my role as your friend is to use my suit power to correct those misperceptions.
[32:25.480 --> 32:30.860]  [SPEAKER_03]: Emmanuel was face to face with Greg Treverton, the vice chairman of the National Intelligence Council at my conference last year.
[32:30.960 --> 32:31.380]  [SPEAKER_03]: It was awesome.
[32:33.080 --> 32:38.600]  [SPEAKER_03]: I mean talk about two opposite but complementary poles of brilliance.
[32:40.000 --> 32:46.840]  [SPEAKER_03]: Now going on with this misperception thing and I'll wrap up in about five minutes and we'll go into questions and answers.
[32:47.960 --> 33:01.180]  [SPEAKER_03]: It bothers me that people don't understand that we have moved from the industrial era to the information era and all these corporations all these government bureaucracies all these laws are from an old era.
[33:02.440 --> 33:04.280]  [SPEAKER_03]: Thomas Jefferson was a hacker.
[33:04.560 --> 33:06.380]  [SPEAKER_03]: He hacked the British empire.
[33:06.740 --> 33:12.380]  [SPEAKER_03]: The American Revolution broke British law and it established new law.
[33:13.200 --> 33:25.820]  [SPEAKER_03]: Thomas Jefferson in his memorial in Washington one of the four quotes that's up there is that while he does not believe in the need for frequent changes in the law he does believe that the law must keep pace with the human mind.
[33:27.220 --> 33:34.020]  [SPEAKER_03]: No more would he have a man wear the coat of his youth than to have old laws applied to new eras.
[33:35.040 --> 33:37.460]  [SPEAKER_03]: Now our government hasn't figured that out yet.
[33:38.780 --> 33:47.980]  [SPEAKER_03]: And one of the things that I really am eager to see the President of the States do is to commission a presidential commission on cyberspace law.
[33:48.900 --> 34:01.600]  [SPEAKER_03]: I have asked Brian Caheen from Harvard to join us at our symposium and I'm trying to find $25,000 in funding for him to establish a new legal framework for cyberspace.
[34:06.350 --> 34:14.330]  [SPEAKER_03]: I think one of the other points that the management wanted me to make is that you're not alone.
[34:15.030 --> 34:17.330]  [SPEAKER_03]: You have now achieved critical mass.
[34:17.490 --> 34:22.110]  [SPEAKER_03]: I think it's absolutely phenomenal to see this room full of bright people.
[34:22.690 --> 34:24.210]  [SPEAKER_03]: You are the pioneers.
[34:25.270 --> 34:29.230]  [SPEAKER_03]: Like the pioneers of the Wild West, you are being crushed by the Buffaloes.
[34:29.970 --> 34:32.830]  [SPEAKER_03]: Bruce Sterling has written a book about it.
[34:35.490 --> 34:37.910]  [SPEAKER_03]: Buffalo heard in the attack.
[34:39.850 --> 34:41.350]  [SPEAKER_03]: You are being shot at.
[34:41.650 --> 34:44.890]  [SPEAKER_03]: You are falling into crevices and dying by the trail.
[34:46.430 --> 34:49.630]  [SPEAKER_03]: I just talked to Phiber Optik on the phone the other day.
[34:50.790 --> 34:54.330]  [SPEAKER_03]: If anyone from Echo is here, be warned, I'm competing for his services.
[34:56.950 --> 35:01.450]  [SPEAKER_03]: And I think that you represent a critical national resource.
[35:01.910 --> 35:04.470]  [SPEAKER_03]: When the Israelis catch a hacker, they give them a job.
[35:08.430 --> 35:22.470]  [SPEAKER_03]: I think this conference, I think of every single one of you as legal, law-abiding citizens that has enormous potential to make a contribution to our national security and our national competitiveness defined in a wholly new way.
[35:22.990 --> 35:30.110]  [SPEAKER_03]: Defined in a way that recognizes that electronic democracy is about popular intellectual power.
[35:31.140 --> 35:38.230]  [SPEAKER_03]: And that attempting to encumber that power with mandated encryption systems and things like that is simply not going to fly.
[35:38.550 --> 35:42.190]  [SPEAKER_03]: And now one final comment on why I am optimistic about your future.
[35:46.150 --> 35:50.970]  [SPEAKER_03]: Charles Perrow has written a wonderful book called Normal Accidents Dealing with High-Risk Technologies.
[35:51.810 --> 35:55.350]  [SPEAKER_03]: He talks about how with simple systems you have single points of failure.
[35:55.790 --> 35:57.230]  [SPEAKER_03]: They're easy to diagnose.
[35:57.450 --> 35:58.810]  [SPEAKER_03]: You can fix them rapidly.
[35:59.670 --> 36:01.930]  [SPEAKER_03]: Complex systems you have multiple points of failure.
[36:02.230 --> 36:05.170]  [SPEAKER_03]: They're a little harder to diagnose, a little harder to fix.
[36:05.530 --> 36:11.350]  [SPEAKER_03]: With constellations of complex systems, you get very quickly to catastrophic failure.
[36:11.350 --> 36:11.370]  [SPEAKER_03]: failure.
[36:12.090 --> 36:13.670]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's impossible to diagnose.
[36:13.950 --> 36:33.630]  [SPEAKER_03]: I think that in this era of complex systems, the power has shifted to the individual because the power of an individual to completely immobilize, indeed destroy, a major corporation, a major government unit, a major telecommunications system, is just phenomenal.
[36:34.070 --> 36:35.230]  [SPEAKER_03]: Now, I'm concerned.
[36:35.430 --> 36:37.230]  [SPEAKER_03]: I consider you the forces of good.
[36:37.230 --> 36:44.530]  [SPEAKER_03]: I consider the people who have picked up some of your methods and are using them for criminal gain or for malicious satisfaction.
[36:44.530 --> 36:45.590]  [SPEAKER_03]: I think they're the enemy.
[36:46.670 --> 37:00.230]  [SPEAKER_03]: And I would be very encouraged if the people associated with hope were available at appropriate salaries to help corporations and help others figure out just how many holes are in their tent.
[37:01.410 --> 37:10.270]  [SPEAKER_03]: Again, as I said earlier, you cannot have a secure corporation if your nation does not have an overall environment that lends itself to security.
[37:11.210 --> 37:16.630]  [SPEAKER_03]: With that, let me stop and say that I am really, I consider it an enormous privilege to be here.
[37:16.810 --> 37:18.570]  [SPEAKER_03]: I was going to undress for you.
[37:21.090 --> 37:27.110]  [SPEAKER_03]: Beneath this suit is a hacker's 9-0 t-shirt from Lake Tahoe and a pair of shorts.
[37:27.850 --> 37:33.510]  [SPEAKER_03]: But I do have detractors and enemies and some of them are in this room and they would use it against me in Washington.
[37:33.790 --> 37:37.650]  [SPEAKER_03]: So, look for me later in appropriate clothing
[37:41.380 --> 37:42.380]  [SPEAKER_03]: with this hat.
[37:46.270 --> 37:50.610]  [SPEAKER_03]: Now, please, let me, what kind of questions have you always wanted to ask the spy?
[37:51.190 --> 37:53.270]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, we're going to get to that part in just a moment.
[37:53.610 --> 38:06.290]  [SPEAKER_05]: And we are offering this speech by Robert Steele, formerly of the CIA and now of Open Sources Solutions in Washington, D.C., who gave the opening address at the Hackers on Planet Earth conference this August.
[38:06.490 --> 38:08.070]  [SPEAKER_05]: Kind of ironic there.
[38:08.250 --> 38:16.190]  [SPEAKER_05]: We're offering that along with a full-year subscription of $2,600, the video and the subscription for a pledge of $100.
[38:16.610 --> 38:19.870]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's 212-279-3400 is the phone number to call.
[38:20.030 --> 38:26.250]  [SPEAKER_05]: We'll be getting back into the Robert Steele speech in just a moment as he takes a few interesting questions from some of the audience members.
[38:27.170 --> 38:29.270]  [SPEAKER_05]: Robert Steele is a fascinating person to talk to.
[38:29.390 --> 38:37.990]  [SPEAKER_05]: He has all kinds of experiences in many different parts of the world with the most powerful people you could probably imagine.
[38:38.570 --> 38:46.090]  [SPEAKER_05]: And here he is talking to a group of computer hackers about how they fit into the bigger scheme of things and willing to talk about this about anything.
[38:46.510 --> 38:52.350]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now, you heard a lot of laughter there as he put on a particular hat, but this is radio, so you can't tell what he was wearing.
[38:52.550 --> 38:54.170]  [SPEAKER_05]: But if you get the video, you'll find out.
[38:54.890 --> 39:01.130]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, for only $100, you can get that video and a full year subscription of 2600 Magazine.
[39:01.750 --> 39:07.730]  [SPEAKER_05]: The summer, I'm sorry, the winter issue, which has just come out, and a lot of interesting things in there.
[39:07.810 --> 39:11.570]  [SPEAKER_05]: We're going to go back to the speech now as he takes some more questions.
[39:12.190 --> 39:15.590]  [SPEAKER_05]: And again, our phone number is 212-279-3400.
[39:15.590 --> 39:30.130]  [SPEAKER_05]: If you want a video copy of that speech and the opening part of the Hackers on Planet Earth Conference, in addition, as well as a full year subscription to the Hacker Quarterly, which will go for four issues, give us a call now.
[39:30.230 --> 39:31.850]  [SPEAKER_05]: 212-279-3400.
[39:32.590 --> 39:36.490]  [SPEAKER_05]: Help support radio that makes this kind of thing possible in the first place.
[39:36.770 --> 39:39.250]  [SPEAKER_05]: 212-279-3400.
[39:52.570 --> 39:53.970]  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, that's a two-part question.
[39:54.090 --> 40:01.530]  [SPEAKER_03]: What's with the N-I-R-O and why did it take them so long to kind of get their act together and why do intelligence agencies have to keep their budget secret?
[40:01.650 --> 40:04.870]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, there are a number of senators that agree with you that the budget should not be secret.
[40:06.430 --> 40:14.350]  [SPEAKER_03]: Part of the reason for secrecy, let me come out in reverse, part of the reason for secrecy is that how you spend money tells a lot about your sources and methods.
[40:15.170 --> 40:28.030]  [SPEAKER_03]: The intelligence community essentially consists of the clandestine operations, which is humans handling agents, where you go out and you recruit someone, you persuade them to betray their country or betray their corporation, usually for money.
[40:28.110 --> 40:28.710]  [SPEAKER_03]: That's what I did.
[40:28.810 --> 40:29.730]  [SPEAKER_03]: I was very good at it.
[40:30.750 --> 40:35.170]  [SPEAKER_03]: And I've left that behind me because I realized a lot of it wasn't very useful.
[40:35.230 --> 40:36.650]  [SPEAKER_03]: Now, I still, I think we need to do that.
[40:37.010 --> 40:39.730]  [SPEAKER_03]: But I think we need to do it in a much cleverer way.
[40:41.610 --> 40:45.330]  [SPEAKER_03]: Right now, it's real easy to recognize who the spies are overseas.
[40:47.230 --> 40:55.350]  [SPEAKER_03]: And my personal opinion is that at least 50% of our clandestine assets, if not more, are already known to local liaison and they're just stringing us along.
[40:56.870 --> 41:02.250]  [SPEAKER_03]: I personally feel the clandestine service needs to be doubled in size, but it needs to go deep and long.
[41:02.530 --> 41:05.290]  [SPEAKER_03]: It needs to have a lot more, a lot more capability.
[41:05.290 --> 41:09.830]  [SPEAKER_03]: But if you revealed its budget, you would be revealing a lot about how it does business.
[41:09.950 --> 41:12.350]  [SPEAKER_03]: So I support secrecy and intelligence.
[41:13.090 --> 41:19.470]  [SPEAKER_03]: Let me, let me also say, Keith Hall, the Deputy Assistant Secretary for Defense for Intelligence, just gave a great speech to the Open Source Lunch Club the other day.
[41:19.550 --> 41:22.270]  [SPEAKER_03]: And he pointed out that intelligence is about secrets.
[41:22.290 --> 41:26.310]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's about collecting information which is not available by other means.
[41:26.890 --> 41:31.110]  [SPEAKER_03]: And he firmly placed open-sources in the category of other means.
[41:32.750 --> 41:38.750]  [SPEAKER_03]: There are some nasty, nasty people out there running out all the way from Libya and Iran.
[41:38.930 --> 41:51.290]  [SPEAKER_03]: The four warrior classes of the future that I talk about are high-tech brutes, low-tech brutes like narco-traffickers and criminals, including, you now have a very vicious Vietnamese and Russian criminal gang that's international in scope.
[41:52.550 --> 41:57.910]  [SPEAKER_03]: Low-tech seers, mobs, Islamic fundamentalism, used improperly.
[41:57.910 --> 41:59.050]  [SPEAKER_03]: I have nothing against the religion.
[41:59.290 --> 42:05.850]  [SPEAKER_03]: And then high-tech seers, down to the 13-year-old Pakistani working through U.S.
[42:05.990 --> 42:10.470]  [SPEAKER_03]: computers that pay his phone bill both ways and coming in and running amok.
[42:12.450 --> 42:15.850]  [SPEAKER_03]: There's an arms race going on in cyberspace and we're not competing.
[42:17.730 --> 42:23.210]  [SPEAKER_03]: So I think secrecy is appropriate for those specific details in the intelligence community.
[42:23.210 --> 42:27.810]  [SPEAKER_03]: I completely support the community in that, but I think the totality of the budget needs to be known.
[42:28.030 --> 42:33.050]  [SPEAKER_03]: The other thing that concerns me is that there is a number that is not secret, but is not known.
[42:33.390 --> 42:34.950]  [SPEAKER_03]: And that is how much the U.S.
[42:35.090 --> 42:40.390]  [SPEAKER_03]: government spends on unclassified information collection, processing, production, and dissemination.
[42:41.190 --> 42:43.330]  [SPEAKER_03]: You are being ripped off as a taxpayer.
[42:44.390 --> 42:46.290]  [SPEAKER_03]: I am being ripped off as a taxpayer.
[42:46.690 --> 42:47.390]  [SPEAKER_03]: The U.S.
[42:47.490 --> 42:52.790]  [SPEAKER_03]: government is the most inefficient information processing kludge I have ever seen.
[42:54.650 --> 42:57.450]  [SPEAKER_03]: And that scares the hell out of me because we're in the age of information.
[42:57.570 --> 42:59.230]  [SPEAKER_03]: Our national competitiveness depends on that.
[42:59.330 --> 43:00.010]  [SPEAKER_03]: Now, to the NRO.
[43:01.770 --> 43:03.430]  [SPEAKER_03]: The NRO got its start.
[43:03.570 --> 43:05.730]  [SPEAKER_03]: I love talking to former members of the NRO.
[43:05.910 --> 43:07.110]  [SPEAKER_03]: I say, NRO, NRO, NRO.
[43:07.350 --> 43:08.270]  [SPEAKER_03]: It drives them crazy.
[43:08.590 --> 43:10.370]  [SPEAKER_03]: Because, you know, I mean, they've gone through their whole life.
[43:11.430 --> 43:18.290]  [SPEAKER_03]: Those, you know, we, I mean, people when you go into surgery, they send someone in to make sure you don't say NRO while you're under, under gas.
[43:19.590 --> 43:21.410]  [SPEAKER_03]: Same thing with CIA and NSA.
[43:21.910 --> 43:23.270]  [SPEAKER_03]: National Reconnaissance Office.
[43:24.650 --> 43:28.290]  [SPEAKER_03]: Those are the people that build the satellites that collect images and signals.
[43:29.130 --> 43:40.890]  [SPEAKER_03]: One of the most positive, constructive things the President of the United States has done in recent months is direct Jim Woolsey to put one meter resolution imagery into the private sector.
[43:41.730 --> 43:43.590]  [SPEAKER_03]: Lockheed and ITAC are competing.
[43:44.090 --> 43:47.250]  [SPEAKER_03]: Now, SPOT is doing real-time imagery.
[43:47.650 --> 43:54.690]  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, they've got a little neat little thing here now where they can have their satellite over there and they can bring in this thing on a C-130 and you can see it in real-time.
[43:54.730 --> 43:55.150]  [SPEAKER_03]: That's cool.
[43:57.990 --> 44:04.890]  [SPEAKER_03]: And what the President recognized, which Jim Woolsey and his deputy directors did not recognize, is that times have changed.
[44:05.170 --> 44:10.730]  [SPEAKER_03]: We can no longer keep the satellite assembly lines open with that kind of restricted customer base.
[44:10.730 --> 44:19.350]  [SPEAKER_03]: And the power of American brains and American know-how is going to atrophy unless we start doing these things in the commercial market.
[44:19.750 --> 44:23.070]  [SPEAKER_03]: And I think that it is a shame that
[44:31.360 --> 44:36.960]  [SPEAKER_03]: he had to be embarrassed by the President with some pushing from George Brown on the Space Committee.
[44:37.300 --> 44:42.980]  [SPEAKER_03]: By the way, a bona fide hacker, Peter Kennedy, is on that Space Committee as an assigned fellow.
[44:43.120 --> 44:43.640]  [SPEAKER_03]: Robert Kennedy?
[44:43.640 --> 44:43.980]  [SPEAKER_03]: Thanks.
[44:44.220 --> 44:45.780]  [SPEAKER_03]: Robert Kennedy is on that committee.
[44:46.420 --> 44:48.100]  [SPEAKER_03]: And Robert, here's a good hacker story.
[44:48.200 --> 44:48.900]  [SPEAKER_03]: Hacker in Washington.
[44:50.160 --> 44:52.160]  [SPEAKER_03]: Woolsey's in there testifying to George Brown.
[44:52.800 --> 44:54.400]  [SPEAKER_03]: And he's staring straight ahead.
[44:54.400 --> 44:55.140]  [SPEAKER_03]: He's very angry.
[44:55.860 --> 44:58.140]  [SPEAKER_03]: And Brown turns around and Robert's sitting behind him.
[44:58.200 --> 45:04.400]  [SPEAKER_03]: And he says, I'd really love to have that poster that shows all the satellites in space.
[45:05.000 --> 45:06.660]  [SPEAKER_03]: So Robert ambles out of the room.
[45:06.860 --> 45:08.060]  [SPEAKER_03]: He calls around town.
[45:08.160 --> 45:10.880]  [SPEAKER_03]: He finds out that the editor of Aviation Week has one over his wall.
[45:10.880 --> 45:14.900]  [SPEAKER_03]: He jumps in a taxi, races over there, brings it back, puts it on an easel.
[45:15.020 --> 45:19.620]  [SPEAKER_03]: And George Brown says to Mr. Woolsey, I direct your attention to the number of satellites in space.
[45:19.700 --> 45:22.600]  [SPEAKER_03]: Are you telling me we can't allow Lockheed to put another one up?
[45:22.880 --> 45:25.820]  [SPEAKER_03]: And so Robert, that's making your bones.
[45:26.600 --> 45:29.040]  [SPEAKER_03]: He really impressed the hell out of those staffers.
[45:29.120 --> 45:32.280]  [SPEAKER_03]: And that's one small contribution to the progress of this dialogue.
[45:32.800 --> 45:36.740]  [SPEAKER_03]: Now the NRO started because we didn't know anything about the Soviet Union.
[45:36.740 --> 45:39.340]  [SPEAKER_03]: It was a so-called closed society.
[45:40.960 --> 45:48.440]  [SPEAKER_03]: And it seems to be an American penchant to try and answer hard problems with technology rather than people.
[45:48.980 --> 46:00.040]  [SPEAKER_03]: And so instead of developing really good legal traveler programs, instead of really putting some effort into debriefing Soviets coming out of the Soviet Union and so on, we built a really, gee whiz, U-2 followed by satellite.
[46:00.680 --> 46:02.200]  [SPEAKER_03]: And it took great pictures.
[46:03.040 --> 46:08.200]  [SPEAKER_03]: The Soviet Union was so important, and it took those great pictures day after day after day after day.
[46:08.600 --> 46:12.340]  [SPEAKER_03]: It didn't take pictures of anywhere else in the world, for all practical purposes.
[46:12.520 --> 46:13.960]  [SPEAKER_03]: And I say this, this is informed judgment.
[46:14.040 --> 46:16.400]  [SPEAKER_03]: I was on the Foreign Intelligence Parties Committee and all those other things.
[46:16.500 --> 46:18.740]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's nice being the second civilian in Marine Corps intelligence.
[46:20.380 --> 46:22.180]  [SPEAKER_03]: Basically, the system got perverted.
[46:23.140 --> 46:26.020]  [SPEAKER_03]: And it became a gee whiz kind of program.
[46:26.020 --> 46:30.080]  [SPEAKER_03]: It was hiding behind so many closed doors that it couldn't be, it wasn't accountable.
[46:30.720 --> 46:32.780]  [SPEAKER_03]: Now let's get to the NRO office building.
[46:34.160 --> 46:43.600]  [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, in an era of declining intelligence budgets, in an era when we've just put one-meter resolution imagery into the private sector, do we really need a 10-building complex?
[46:43.920 --> 46:44.220]  [SPEAKER_03]: No.
[46:44.340 --> 46:45.400]  [SPEAKER_03]: This is the last hurrah.
[46:46.360 --> 46:51.600]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's my personal feeling that the NRO did indeed obfuscate its budgetary things.
[46:52.000 --> 46:53.560]  [SPEAKER_03]: It hid the building in base.
[46:53.720 --> 46:55.900]  [SPEAKER_03]: Base is stuff that's been previously approved.
[46:56.380 --> 47:02.760]  [SPEAKER_03]: New initiatives are things that are coming up for the first time, and ongoing initiatives are things that have been approved but are in their five-year rollover period.
[47:04.820 --> 47:08.440]  [SPEAKER_03]: I think Dick Consini is setting the stage for the departure of Jim Woolsey.
[47:09.720 --> 47:14.740]  [SPEAKER_03]: I'd be very pleased if the NRO's office buildings became the new open-source intelligence center for the nation.
[47:18.640 --> 47:19.560]  [SPEAKER_03]: Another question.
[47:19.760 --> 47:20.060]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, sir.
[47:44.530 --> 47:46.430]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, okay, that's a three-part thing.
[47:46.530 --> 47:48.690]  [SPEAKER_03]: One is the assumption I'm primarily military intelligence.
[47:48.870 --> 47:49.430]  [SPEAKER_03]: That's not correct.
[47:49.690 --> 47:51.830]  [SPEAKER_03]: I spent nine years at CIA.
[47:53.510 --> 47:56.290]  [SPEAKER_03]: I was very proud and pleased to be at CIA.
[47:57.310 --> 48:00.410]  [SPEAKER_03]: I still respect that organization and the people who work there.
[48:00.750 --> 48:08.470]  [SPEAKER_03]: I then went to become a civilian in Marine Corps intelligence because they wanted me to stand up the intel center.
[48:08.590 --> 48:09.230]  [SPEAKER_03]: I had had...
[48:09.230 --> 48:12.250]  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm one of the few people that served in three of the four directives at CIA.
[48:12.250 --> 48:13.410]  [SPEAKER_03]: I've done overseas ops.
[48:13.530 --> 48:14.210]  [SPEAKER_03]: I've done satellites.
[48:14.410 --> 48:14.990]  [SPEAKER_03]: I've done tech.
[48:16.010 --> 48:17.170]  [SPEAKER_03]: And I can read and write.
[48:17.710 --> 48:18.710]  [SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, it...
[48:19.290 --> 48:20.430]  [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, it was good.
[48:20.530 --> 48:21.190]  [SPEAKER_03]: It was a good package.
[48:21.290 --> 48:22.730]  [SPEAKER_03]: I was very proud to go to the Marine Corps.
[48:24.030 --> 48:25.850]  [SPEAKER_03]: God bless them because they changed me.
[48:27.290 --> 48:33.870]  [SPEAKER_03]: Second item, you assume that the military is very good at buying weapons that kill people and not very good at computers and processing information.
[48:33.990 --> 48:34.910]  [SPEAKER_03]: Actually, they're not good at either.
[48:37.630 --> 48:40.110]  [SPEAKER_03]: I helped kill the M1 tank in the Marine Corps.
[48:40.750 --> 48:46.370]  [SPEAKER_03]: The first time the M1 tank was bought by the Marine Corps, it was bought under pressure from the Army, which needed a larger buy.
[48:47.350 --> 48:51.850]  [SPEAKER_03]: The Army was pushing the 120 gun so it could take care of the central front.
[48:52.870 --> 48:54.690]  [SPEAKER_03]: And the Marine Corps didn't have an intelligence center.
[48:54.690 --> 48:59.270]  [SPEAKER_03]: Now, the M1 tank weighs 70 tons and it invented the concept of gallons per mile.
[48:59.850 --> 49:00.370]  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay?
[49:00.930 --> 49:03.810]  [SPEAKER_03]: It also fries infantrymen in its vicinity.
[49:05.530 --> 49:09.290]  [SPEAKER_03]: The second time, the commandant had the good sense, he had an intelligence center.
[49:09.370 --> 49:13.570]  [SPEAKER_03]: He asked me, his colonel asked me, and so I had a little study.
[49:13.750 --> 49:16.990]  [SPEAKER_03]: We went back and we said, well, weigh 70 tons.
[49:17.650 --> 49:22.650]  [SPEAKER_03]: European companies will not sell a commercial truck that weighs more than 30 tons to the third world.
[49:23.470 --> 49:23.990]  [SPEAKER_03]: Why?
[49:23.990 --> 49:24.730]  [SPEAKER_03]: Bridge loading.
[49:25.550 --> 49:27.610]  [SPEAKER_03]: Bridges will not carry more than 30 tons on the average.
[49:28.150 --> 49:30.670]  [SPEAKER_03]: Second, main gun in the third world is a 105.
[49:31.570 --> 49:35.370]  [SPEAKER_03]: Third, average weight of the battle tank out there is 35, 40 tons.
[49:36.250 --> 49:38.410]  [SPEAKER_03]: Fourth, you have no cross-country mobility.
[49:38.530 --> 49:41.890]  [SPEAKER_03]: In other words, the third world tends to be very hazardous terrain outside of about six countries.
[49:41.890 --> 49:44.410]  [SPEAKER_03]: You can't get from the beach to the capital city off-road.
[49:45.850 --> 49:49.530]  [SPEAKER_03]: Fourth, line of sight distance, intervisibility is under 900 meters.
[49:50.870 --> 49:52.750]  [SPEAKER_03]: Gees, maybe we don't need the M1.
[49:53.010 --> 49:55.870]  [SPEAKER_03]: Maybe we need a helicopter with a big bad stinger on it.
[49:56.810 --> 50:02.790]  [SPEAKER_03]: But this is an example of unclassified intelligence making a strategic difference in a major procurement effort.
[50:03.010 --> 50:05.610]  [SPEAKER_03]: Right now, and I've written extensively on this.
[50:06.030 --> 50:10.090]  [SPEAKER_03]: My article that addresses this point on yours is a critical evaluation of U.S.
[50:10.390 --> 50:15.750]  [SPEAKER_03]: national intelligence, which was in the International Journal of Intelligence, Counterintelligence.
[50:15.750 --> 50:17.710]  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm under a lifetime secrecy agreement.
[50:17.930 --> 50:20.530]  [SPEAKER_03]: All of my written materials are previewed for security.
[50:22.730 --> 50:28.150]  [SPEAKER_03]: And we don't do a very good job of making informed judgments about acquisitions programs.
[50:28.610 --> 50:33.570]  [SPEAKER_03]: Once a program is underway, we don't do a very good job of understanding the threat as it's changed.
[50:33.810 --> 50:46.590]  [SPEAKER_03]: You know, when you have a 10 to 15 year procurement process and you have a private sector that is able to develop things in a year or two, and then you have people who can go steal off-the-shelf capabilities, all of a sudden you have this mismatch.
[50:46.710 --> 50:50.830]  [SPEAKER_03]: Now, on computers, it's not the military, it's not the government, it's the country.
[50:52.490 --> 50:54.890]  [SPEAKER_03]: Take the chief information officer concept.
[50:56.250 --> 50:59.350]  [SPEAKER_03]: In my experience, it's mostly the senior tech weenie.
[51:00.630 --> 51:06.550]  [SPEAKER_03]: That's the last person that should be the chief information officer for a country, I mean for a company.
[51:06.850 --> 51:21.410]  [SPEAKER_03]: The chief information officer for a company should be responsible for ensuring that every employee is a collector, delivery people, service They should be responsible for ensuring that the information that's collected is put into a corporate-wide database.
[51:21.850 --> 51:28.870]  [SPEAKER_03]: My friend Paul Strassman invented the concept of corporate information management, which means one-time data entry, corporate-wide access.
[51:29.510 --> 51:33.870]  [SPEAKER_03]: And they should be responsible for ensuring that the information supports the strategic intent.
[51:35.590 --> 51:38.170]  [SPEAKER_03]: And so I don't say the military has any answers.
[51:38.170 --> 51:44.910]  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm saying that we as a country need to come up with some solutions, and you as a group, I think, have a lot to offer.
[51:45.050 --> 51:51.570]  [SPEAKER_03]: For instance, I'm still waiting to see that killer paper on how I would take down the United States in 24 hours.
[51:52.010 --> 51:54.870]  [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, Peter Black gave it a stab in Wired Magazine.
[51:54.870 --> 52:01.090]  [SPEAKER_03]: He had a very nice little article that listed, you know, Barking Sands Time Antenna and Culpeper Switch in Virginia and a few other things.
[52:01.150 --> 52:01.910]  [SPEAKER_03]: It was a fun article.
[52:02.870 --> 52:04.990]  [SPEAKER_03]: Wyn Schwartel, his book, Terminal Compromise.
[52:05.110 --> 52:06.490]  [SPEAKER_03]: His lawyers wouldn't let him do this one.
[52:06.530 --> 52:07.230]  [SPEAKER_03]: This is a great book.
[52:07.750 --> 52:08.990]  [SPEAKER_03]: You know, do me a favor.
[52:09.130 --> 52:10.130]  [SPEAKER_03]: Improve on this book.
[52:10.810 --> 52:14.330]  [SPEAKER_03]: This is Information Warfare, Chaos on the Electronic Superhighway.
[52:15.230 --> 52:17.870]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's got a blurb by one Robert Steele on the back.
[52:18.030 --> 52:19.390]  [SPEAKER_03]: I obviously believe in this book.
[52:19.810 --> 52:26.250]  [SPEAKER_03]: This book is my weapon for scaring the hell out of everybody in charge of communications and computing in this country.
[52:26.950 --> 52:33.410]  [SPEAKER_03]: Wyn Schwartel, he's here in the white shorts and the Oklahoma version of a Hawaiian shirt.
[52:35.850 --> 52:36.810]  [SPEAKER_03]: Wyn, are you here?
[52:38.710 --> 52:39.430]  [SPEAKER_03]: I guess not.
[52:39.510 --> 52:40.390]  [SPEAKER_03]: He's doing more important things.
[52:40.450 --> 52:41.130]  [SPEAKER_03]: He's heard me before.
[52:41.870 --> 52:43.650]  [SPEAKER_03]: But Wyn Schwartel, I encourage you to talk to him.
[52:43.750 --> 52:46.070]  [SPEAKER_03]: And frankly, I want you to write the next book.
[52:47.530 --> 52:57.170]  [SPEAKER_03]: I'd love to see you guys, hope, as an organization, publish a book on your views on what's wrong with our existing system and how it can be fixed.
[52:58.990 --> 53:02.310]  [SPEAKER_03]: I don't ask you to publish how to do it.
[53:04.410 --> 53:05.910]  [SPEAKER_03]: Because I trust you.
[53:06.070 --> 53:07.790]  [SPEAKER_03]: I don't trust the people that will read your book.
[53:09.090 --> 53:10.990]  [SPEAKER_03]: But I think you have a lot to contribute.
[53:10.990 --> 53:12.450]  [SPEAKER_03]: Another question.
[53:12.930 --> 53:13.650]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, sir.
[53:14.110 --> 53:17.970]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, one of these things is the current state of computer education in America.
[53:18.370 --> 53:21.190]  [SPEAKER_11]: To bluntly, computer education in America is non-existent.
[53:21.710 --> 53:23.650]  [SPEAKER_03]: Education in America is non-existent.
[53:30.450 --> 53:32.110]  [SPEAKER_11]: And that was in 1993.
[53:32.490 --> 53:35.430]  [SPEAKER_11]: Who left on to in 1989 in elementary school?
[53:35.810 --> 53:40.630]  [SPEAKER_11]: To take the Tandy color computer to an intermediate school.
[53:40.750 --> 53:42.950]  [SPEAKER_11]: There are Macintosh 2s, ancient.
[53:43.390 --> 53:43.830]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[53:43.890 --> 53:45.030]  [SPEAKER_11]: And a Connor 64.
[53:46.090 --> 53:49.150]  [SPEAKER_11]: We're supposed to be the most industrialized nation in the world.
[53:49.250 --> 53:50.550]  [SPEAKER_11]: We're supposed to be on the edge of the future.
[53:50.870 --> 53:51.690]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yeah, but we're not.
[53:51.730 --> 53:52.890]  [SPEAKER_11]: And computers are obviously the future.
[53:53.010 --> 53:53.510]  How come?
[53:53.610 --> 53:55.070]  [SPEAKER_03]: Let me cut to the chase.
[53:55.070 --> 53:58.710]  [SPEAKER_03]: The question is, why do we have such lousy computer education in this country?
[53:59.750 --> 54:02.650]  [SPEAKER_03]: And of course, I feel we have a terrible education system.
[54:02.790 --> 54:11.490]  [SPEAKER_03]: I make the comment that we now sentence everybody in the United States to 12 years in prison, followed by two to four years in a halfway house called graduate school.
[54:13.210 --> 54:17.010]  [SPEAKER_03]: You know, my stomach turns over when I see a yellow school bus.
[54:17.350 --> 54:21.690]  [SPEAKER_03]: And I'm going to be watching very carefully when my five-year-old starts school in September.
[54:23.450 --> 54:25.870]  [SPEAKER_03]: Part of the problem is the education mafia.
[54:26.270 --> 54:31.350]  [SPEAKER_03]: The teachers, the educational associations, they're in the stone age.
[54:31.790 --> 54:33.550]  [SPEAKER_03]: They do not understand this stuff.
[54:34.930 --> 54:37.790]  [SPEAKER_03]: Frankly, I would like to think...
[54:37.790 --> 54:40.150]  [SPEAKER_03]: Again, it's very difficult to lead a revolution.
[54:40.150 --> 54:41.770]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's very difficult to make a revolution.
[54:41.770 --> 54:45.750]  [SPEAKER_03]: But we're now at a point where you guys represent the new educational system.
[54:45.750 --> 54:47.330]  [SPEAKER_03]: You're self-taught.
[54:47.550 --> 54:48.670]  [SPEAKER_03]: You're smart.
[54:48.870 --> 54:49.690]  [SPEAKER_03]: You're applied.
[54:49.990 --> 54:56.370]  [SPEAKER_03]: You have unlimited stamina, given an adequate supply of snow cones and other things.
[54:57.990 --> 54:58.790]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[54:59.110 --> 55:02.010]  [SPEAKER_03]: And I think you represent a new way of learning.
[55:02.990 --> 55:05.450]  [SPEAKER_03]: We're in a major transition period.
[55:07.230 --> 55:11.870]  [SPEAKER_03]: And I think that the kind of self-help that you can provide one another.
[55:12.090 --> 55:15.150]  [SPEAKER_03]: The kind of coming together of boffs, of birds of a feather.
[55:16.250 --> 55:18.650]  [SPEAKER_03]: That's going to be an important part of transition.
[55:19.370 --> 55:25.170]  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm starting to see hackers that were in jail two years ago in very productive junior engineering positions.
[55:27.010 --> 55:39.210]  [SPEAKER_03]: And I think it's one of the purposes of a forum like this, and one of the things that I try and do in my own activities, including my newsletter, is to help people understand that it's what you can do, not whether you have that diploma.
[55:39.750 --> 55:43.130]  [SPEAKER_03]: Now, having said that, I would also put an expiration date on all diplomas.
[55:46.570 --> 55:48.570]  [SPEAKER_03]: You guys want me to stop, or more questions?
[55:49.610 --> 55:49.970]  [SPEAKER_03]: More?
[55:50.150 --> 55:50.450]  [SPEAKER_03]: All right.
[55:51.690 --> 55:53.490]  [SPEAKER_03]: You, sir, and then in the back.
[55:55.110 --> 55:56.210]  [SPEAKER_03]: Please stand up.
[55:56.730 --> 55:57.130]  [SPEAKER_03]: What?
[55:59.550 --> 56:00.190]  [SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
[56:00.470 --> 56:02.430]  [SPEAKER_03]: Sensitive compartmented information facilities.
[56:08.020 --> 56:09.120]  [SPEAKER_03]: Probably not.
[56:09.120 --> 56:11.820]  [SPEAKER_03]: I suspect the information is available.
[56:12.540 --> 56:13.280]  [SPEAKER_03]: Part of the...
[56:13.280 --> 56:13.760]  [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, I'm sorry.
[56:13.860 --> 56:25.200]  [SPEAKER_03]: Is the public aware of how much money has been spent on Tempest, which is emissions protection, so that you can't use the VanEck emissions effect and use one of those $100,000 Radio Shack vans to capture stuff?
[56:25.200 --> 56:27.480]  [SPEAKER_03]: Or whatever you've cooked up.
[56:30.160 --> 56:34.360]  [SPEAKER_03]: Tempest is a very viable and important program for protecting secrets.
[56:35.520 --> 56:39.520]  [SPEAKER_03]: It is, unfortunately, not at all common in the corporate sector.
[56:39.640 --> 56:47.440]  [SPEAKER_03]: Hughes STX had an excellent computer and communication security program, and it went belly-up, because the market wasn't ready.
[56:47.640 --> 56:48.640]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, it's ready now.
[56:50.120 --> 56:56.340]  [SPEAKER_03]: And I think that BDM and a couple of other firms that I'm working with are going to start moving towards serious money-making.
[56:56.340 --> 57:07.240]  [SPEAKER_03]: The big thing, we were talking about this earlier, is your corporate information systems have 20% proprietary that deserves Tempest protection, and 80% that doesn't.
[57:07.720 --> 57:12.360]  [SPEAKER_03]: But because the proprietary is on the big system, they can't afford to Tempest the whole system.
[57:12.360 --> 57:20.020]  [SPEAKER_03]: And because the proprietary is on the big system, they won't allow the employees to reach out and barter and share that encyclopedia.
[57:20.200 --> 57:21.180]  [SPEAKER_03]: So they're losing twice.
[57:21.600 --> 57:29.320]  [SPEAKER_03]: One of the most fundamental things people have to do is decide what you really want to protect and give it Tempest, full encryption, authentication, reliability, and so on.
[57:29.320 --> 57:32.040]  [SPEAKER_03]: The other stuff, you need to have an open network.
[57:32.200 --> 57:38.380]  [SPEAKER_03]: And at the same time, you need to work aggressively through your government representatives, your lobbyists and so on.
[57:39.380 --> 57:40.840]  [SPEAKER_03]: I think I'm being thrown off.
[57:41.780 --> 57:49.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, yes, actually, Robert, you are being thrown off because we are running out of time and we do have to move ahead with the program.
[57:49.760 --> 58:01.460]  [SPEAKER_05]: However, what you have been listening to is a large part of the Robert Steele speech which took place at the opening ceremonies, as they were, of the Hackers on Planet Earth Conference.
[58:01.460 --> 58:09.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: Robert Steele being a former operative for the Central Intelligence Agency and someone who seems to have a fairly enlightened view.
[58:09.780 --> 58:12.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now, you won't agree with everything he says.
[58:12.540 --> 58:16.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: I know I don't agree with everything he says, but it's the way he says it.
[58:16.200 --> 58:24.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's the way that he's willing to bridge some gaps and speak to people that you would not expect someone affiliated with the Central Intelligence Agency to do.
[58:25.220 --> 58:30.760]  [SPEAKER_05]: So that's why we asked him to be a part of the conference, and that's why we played his remarks tonight.
[58:31.160 --> 58:38.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: And that's why we hope that you will call us up and show some support for the radio station that makes all of this possible, WBAI in New York.
[58:38.680 --> 58:41.440]  [SPEAKER_05]: Our number is 212-279-3400.
[58:41.560 --> 58:54.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: While we will accept any pledge that you can offer us, because every little bit helps and we all kind of add up together to make something really, really big, a pledge of $100 will get you a copy of the videotape, which goes on for quite a bit longer than that.
[58:54.380 --> 59:02.140]  [SPEAKER_05]: As there were some remarks beforehand, there was an opening address and, of course, all the video that you don't see on the radio.
[59:02.360 --> 59:08.400]  [SPEAKER_05]: In addition to that, you will get a full year of 2600 Magazine, the Hacker Quarterly, and a year of the WBAI Folio.
[59:08.460 --> 59:09.580]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's for a pledge of $100.
[59:09.580 --> 59:16.160]  [SPEAKER_05]: Remember, we take Visa and MasterCard, and we have wide-open phone lines, 212-279-3400.
[59:16.380 --> 59:19.880]  [SPEAKER_05]: We're up to $925 for this program.
[59:19.880 --> 59:28.780]  [SPEAKER_05]: We're on for another hour, and we need to move significantly beyond that for us to be qualified in the halls of WBAI as a success.
[59:29.080 --> 59:32.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: So, 212-279-3400.
[59:33.000 --> 59:33.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: Walter is here.
[59:33.920 --> 59:36.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: He's one of the co-organizers of the Hackers on Planet Earth Conference.
[59:37.160 --> 59:37.780]  [SPEAKER_05]: Greetings, Walter.
[59:38.000 --> 59:38.320]  [SPEAKER_05]: Hiya.
[59:39.200 --> 59:45.020]  [SPEAKER_05]: You, I understand, actually met face-to-face with Robert Steele, and you had an interesting encounter with him.
[59:45.020 --> 59:46.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, he was very productive.
[59:46.800 --> 59:47.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: He's a fascinating person, isn't he?
[59:47.960 --> 59:48.340]  [SPEAKER_06]: He is.
[59:48.460 --> 59:50.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: We had a decent conversation.
[59:50.900 --> 59:51.200]  [SPEAKER_05]: Tell us.
[59:51.240 --> 59:51.760]  [SPEAKER_05]: Tell us what happened.
[59:52.020 --> 59:56.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: He was behind me in line for the ID cards at Hope.
[59:56.600 --> 01:00:02.300]  [SPEAKER_06]: I was waiting on line in the middle of the night because most of the time I was in the kitchen working on the systems.
[01:00:02.740 --> 01:00:04.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's where the network operations center was in the kitchen.
[01:00:04.940 --> 01:00:05.700]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, the kitchen.
[01:00:06.560 --> 01:00:08.680]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's too bad they never fixed that leak on the floor.
[01:00:08.820 --> 01:00:09.140]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[01:00:10.000 --> 01:00:12.140]  [SPEAKER_06]: The roaches were plenty of fun, too.
[01:00:12.280 --> 01:00:12.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[01:00:12.660 --> 01:00:14.240]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, they kept people out, but...
[01:00:14.240 --> 01:00:15.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: So, okay.
[01:00:15.400 --> 01:00:16.680]  [SPEAKER_05]: Tell us about your conversation.
[01:00:16.680 --> 01:00:20.860]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, he was behind me on line, and he asked me whether I was in line.
[01:00:21.120 --> 01:00:21.420]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh-huh.
[01:00:21.540 --> 01:00:26.360]  [SPEAKER_06]: And I turned around and yelled at him, I'm in line, but you're out of line.
[01:00:26.740 --> 01:00:28.280]  [SPEAKER_05]: Ah, you said that to Robert Steele, huh?
[01:00:28.300 --> 01:00:28.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[01:00:28.680 --> 01:00:28.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: Wow.
[01:00:29.060 --> 01:00:30.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: And that kind of killed the conversation.
[01:00:31.380 --> 01:00:32.780]  [SPEAKER_06]: Boy, that's something.
[01:00:32.800 --> 01:00:35.040]  [SPEAKER_06]: But what it was, it was pretty interesting.
[01:00:35.100 --> 01:00:37.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: Did you know at the time that he was a former operative of the CIA?
[01:00:37.500 --> 01:00:37.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, yeah.
[01:00:38.160 --> 01:00:39.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: No, I actually knew it was him.
[01:00:39.580 --> 01:00:39.800]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh-huh.
[01:00:40.420 --> 01:00:42.600]  [SPEAKER_06]: I missed the opening speech.
[01:00:42.920 --> 01:00:46.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, if you listen to the radio just now, you will have heard some of it.
[01:00:46.380 --> 01:00:46.580]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[01:00:46.580 --> 01:00:48.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know where he comes from, though?
[01:00:48.100 --> 01:00:50.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know basically his viewpoints?
[01:00:50.920 --> 01:00:51.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, yeah.
[01:00:51.820 --> 01:00:53.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's actually very surprising.
[01:00:53.500 --> 01:00:54.440]  [SPEAKER_06]: It makes me a little suspicious.
[01:00:54.740 --> 01:00:54.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh-huh.
[01:00:55.300 --> 01:00:56.680]  [SPEAKER_05]: What do you think he's...
[01:00:56.680 --> 01:00:58.820]  [SPEAKER_06]: That he is so open-minded and...
[01:00:58.820 --> 01:00:59.260]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh-huh.
[01:00:59.900 --> 01:01:02.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, he has a lot of enemies in Washington, D.C.
[01:01:02.600 --> 01:01:10.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: That much seems pretty clear, because he's advocating opening so many things up, and a lot of people in Washington, D.C.
[01:01:10.940 --> 01:01:15.560]  [SPEAKER_05]: survive on making things as closed as possible, kind of like, you know, the Kremlin or something almost.
[01:01:15.560 --> 01:01:16.400]  [SPEAKER_06]: Right, right.
[01:01:16.820 --> 01:01:17.540]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, uh, yeah.
[01:01:18.120 --> 01:01:19.940]  [SPEAKER_06]: Robert Steele, it's really surprising.
[01:01:20.060 --> 01:01:25.720]  [SPEAKER_06]: Robert Steele, working as a former, working for the CIA, it's really surprising hearing what he has to say.
[01:01:26.100 --> 01:01:34.020]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, uh, he actually has very intelligent viewpoints about these things, though, and, uh, I would tend to agree with.
[01:01:34.160 --> 01:01:47.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: What I thought was really good, though, was being in that room with about 500 computer hackers who were all asking him questions, you know, and there was this back and forth between the CIA guy and computer hackers, and, uh, I mean, how often do you get something like that?
[01:01:47.360 --> 01:01:53.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: How often do you actually get the chance to, to put somebody up on the spot like that and have him, uh, you know, take what you say seriously?
[01:01:54.040 --> 01:02:04.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, it's, uh, it's kind of what we exist for here and, uh, and what we've been trying to do with the, with the magazine as well, to bridge some gaps, to have people talking to each other from totally different sides of the fence.
[01:02:04.840 --> 01:02:12.560]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, uh, of course, to do that, you have to have some kind of a desire, uh, to, to meet with somebody who you may not see completely eye to eye with.
[01:02:12.620 --> 01:02:13.780]  [SPEAKER_05]: And that's, that's what he did.
[01:02:13.860 --> 01:02:15.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's what a lot of people at Hope did.
[01:02:15.000 --> 01:02:29.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: And that's basically what we're asking people here tonight to do as well, uh, is to invest a little time and money into, uh, the radio stations that we can continue to bring, uh, opposing views and, um, and, and different people, not only to the airwaves,
[01:02:29.220 --> 01:02:33.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: but, uh, but, you know, to the, to the city, to, uh, to the community as, as a whole.
[01:02:34.140 --> 01:02:40.780]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, WBAI was a major part of the Hackers on Planet Earth Conference because, uh, how do you think you, you get the word out on something like that?
[01:02:40.780 --> 01:02:43.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: You have to tell people, you have to spread knowledge around.
[01:02:43.780 --> 01:02:48.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: And when you have a 50,000 watt radio station in the middle of New York City, that's a fairly good vehicle for doing that.
[01:02:49.040 --> 01:02:53.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: But the flip side is that we need support so that people can continue to do this in the future.
[01:02:54.100 --> 01:03:08.160]  [SPEAKER_05]: So if you support the idea of, of communication, of bridging gaps, of getting people together and hearing differing opinions and, and, and just things that you may or may not agree with, give us a call now, 212-279-3400.
[01:03:08.220 --> 01:03:09.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: We have no phone calls.
[01:03:09.680 --> 01:03:10.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: Can you believe this, Walter?
[01:03:10.360 --> 01:03:11.220]  [SPEAKER_05]: No phone calls.
[01:03:11.560 --> 01:03:11.760]  [SPEAKER_06]: Unbelievable.
[01:03:12.020 --> 01:03:12.280]  [SPEAKER_05]: Unbelievable.
[01:03:12.580 --> 01:03:17.560]  [SPEAKER_05]: We are, we are broadcasting, uh, to, to three different states, maybe even four different states from, from what I can tell.
[01:03:18.040 --> 01:03:24.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: And we are, we are, uh, sharing things that nobody else shares in this particular, uh, airwave.
[01:03:25.240 --> 01:03:29.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, so, please give us a call, 212-279-3400.
[01:03:29.200 --> 01:03:30.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: We need to, uh, to get several pledges.
[01:03:30.780 --> 01:03:37.560]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now, in addition to, uh, uh, to the Robert Steele speech, you will be able to get a full year of 2600 Magazine.
[01:03:37.560 --> 01:03:39.440]  [SPEAKER_05]: The winter issue has just come out.
[01:03:39.540 --> 01:03:42.720]  [SPEAKER_05]: This is what the winter issue sounds like from a foot above the desk.
[01:03:42.960 --> 01:03:43.180]  [SPEAKER_05]: Dropping.
[01:03:43.340 --> 01:03:43.720]  [SPEAKER_05]: See?
[01:03:43.860 --> 01:03:46.440]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's pretty thick with information there.
[01:03:46.560 --> 01:03:47.500]  [SPEAKER_05]: And in fact, you know what?
[01:03:47.500 --> 01:03:48.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's going to get thicker.
[01:03:48.600 --> 01:03:49.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's going to get thicker.
[01:03:49.540 --> 01:03:56.640]  [SPEAKER_05]: I am authorized to say that in the spring 1995 edition, there will be, uh, an extra few pages in here.
[01:03:56.760 --> 01:03:59.680]  [SPEAKER_05]: I think we're going from 48 pages to 56 pages or something like that.
[01:04:00.060 --> 01:04:15.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: So, um, if you, uh, take advantage of this offer by calling 212-279-3400, pledging $100, you will be getting a full year of this magazine with more pages, and you'll be getting the Robert Steele Hope intro videotape, uh, never before available to anybody.
[01:04:15.360 --> 01:04:17.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, that's for a pledge of $100.
[01:04:18.000 --> 01:04:22.600]  [SPEAKER_05]: And again, you can use Visa and MasterCard and spread the payments out for the rest of your life, I guess.
[01:04:22.960 --> 01:04:24.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: If, if, uh, that's what they like when you do that.
[01:04:25.420 --> 01:04:32.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, but again, if, if, if you're not interested in any of this, but you want to support the radio station, we will accept any amount.
[01:04:32.240 --> 01:04:33.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: And that's, that's, that's certainly true.
[01:04:34.020 --> 01:04:43.640]  [SPEAKER_05]: So if you have ever gotten anything out of this particular radio program off the hook, please give us a call now, 212-279-3400, and pledge whatever you can afford.
[01:04:44.160 --> 01:04:49.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, if we have, um, seven phone lines light up right now, and everybody pledges $25.
[01:04:50.200 --> 01:04:52.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, that's, uh, help me out here, Walter, what is that?
[01:04:52.980 --> 01:04:53.400]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's, uh...
[01:04:53.820 --> 01:04:54.180]  [SPEAKER_05]: $175.
[01:04:54.360 --> 01:04:55.020]  [SPEAKER_05]: Thank you, thank you.
[01:04:55.140 --> 01:04:56.740]  [SPEAKER_05]: So nice to have mathematician types around.
[01:04:57.300 --> 01:04:58.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: $175, just like that, you know?
[01:04:58.980 --> 01:05:04.240]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, and $25 is, is a fairly small amount, uh, for any, any particular pledge drive.
[01:05:04.400 --> 01:05:06.640]  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, I don't think they'll even allow you to do that on public television.
[01:05:08.080 --> 01:05:10.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: So please give us a call, 212-279-3400.
[01:05:10.720 --> 01:05:16.800]  [SPEAKER_05]: Usually all these phone lines are taken up with people asking all kinds of, uh, of strange questions and sharing information.
[01:05:17.180 --> 01:05:22.440]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, all of that is made possible by the people that call tonight and pledge support.
[01:05:22.640 --> 01:05:23.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: Invest in the radio station.
[01:05:24.080 --> 01:05:24.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: We don't have commercials.
[01:05:25.240 --> 01:05:27.140]  [SPEAKER_05]: We don't have any other way of doing this.
[01:05:27.240 --> 01:05:27.880]  [SPEAKER_05]: We really don't.
[01:05:28.040 --> 01:05:37.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: And if we, um, if we lie back and allow people like Newt Gingrich to, uh, to dictate our future, well, we're going to have a very interesting future.
[01:05:37.420 --> 01:05:38.260]  [SPEAKER_05]: Let's just put it that way.
[01:05:38.380 --> 01:05:42.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: He thinks that, uh, channel 13 is too liberal.
[01:05:42.920 --> 01:05:43.720]  [SPEAKER_05]: Channel 13.
[01:05:43.960 --> 01:05:44.600]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now this is WBAI.
[01:05:45.180 --> 01:05:46.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: We are the alternative to channel 13.
[01:05:47.060 --> 01:05:52.560]  [SPEAKER_05]: So, you know, imagine, imagine how Newt Gingrich feels about, uh, about Pacifica radio.
[01:05:52.560 --> 01:05:58.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm sure it's not high on his list of things to listen to, and, and it is very high on his list of things to chop.
[01:05:59.460 --> 01:06:07.580]  [SPEAKER_05]: So, um, not that we get money from Newt Gingrich, but if he, uh, if he had his way, he'd figure out all kinds of things to make life more difficult for us.
[01:06:07.580 --> 01:06:19.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: And when you have authority figures, people in government trying to make life difficult for you, life does become difficult, but all of us together can, uh, can fight it, can prevent it from happening and make things a lot easier.
[01:06:20.060 --> 01:06:23.160]  [SPEAKER_05]: Your call now will make things a lot easier for us.
[01:06:23.160 --> 01:06:26.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, we're, I know we're at 925, but we've had a couple of phone calls.
[01:06:27.100 --> 01:06:29.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: So hopefully those phone calls have been nice, generous pledges.
[01:06:30.060 --> 01:06:32.100]  [SPEAKER_05]: Again, 212-279-3400.
[01:06:32.260 --> 01:06:40.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: We have yet to see, apart from when we were offering the escape accounts before, we have yet to see a full set of, uh, of phones lighting up.
[01:06:40.500 --> 01:06:43.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, and that's sort of a tradition here at Off the Hook.
[01:06:43.640 --> 01:06:49.880]  [SPEAKER_05]: At least once we get all the lines lit up and people in the, in the tally room are running around frantically trying to answer all the phones.
[01:06:50.020 --> 01:06:52.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: So this would be a good time for that to happen.
[01:06:52.080 --> 01:06:54.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: 212-279-3400.
[01:06:55.280 --> 01:06:58.760]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now, Walter, I know you'd be pledging if you weren't sitting here on the radio right now, isn't it, right?
[01:06:58.760 --> 01:07:00.660]  [SPEAKER_06]: Uh, if I, if I had some money, I'd be pledging.
[01:07:01.000 --> 01:07:01.400]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[01:07:01.560 --> 01:07:02.320]  [SPEAKER_06]: Anything I had.
[01:07:02.680 --> 01:07:05.620]  [SPEAKER_06]: I, I think you should add an extra little bit of spice to your offer.
[01:07:05.880 --> 01:07:12.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: You could probably waive the special fee to decode the message in one of the letters on one of the pages.
[01:07:12.680 --> 01:07:13.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, okay.
[01:07:13.340 --> 01:07:15.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: I think, uh, people get excited about that.
[01:07:15.300 --> 01:07:18.440]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, well, you know, we do have a premium page in 2600 Magazine.
[01:07:18.660 --> 01:07:20.560]  [SPEAKER_05]: Not, not unlike those premium channels on cable.
[01:07:21.000 --> 01:07:24.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: However, you are not authorized to read the page unless you pay the fee.
[01:07:25.860 --> 01:07:28.460]  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, I mean, that's just the way, that's just the way it is.
[01:07:28.560 --> 01:07:34.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, I'm following, you know, the footsteps of, of all these other corporations that we all admire and try to emulate.
[01:07:34.000 --> 01:07:39.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: So, um, you know, yeah, people, uh, people aren't allowed to read that unless they pay the extra fee.
[01:07:39.740 --> 01:07:40.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: But we can work something out.
[01:07:41.080 --> 01:07:51.140]  [SPEAKER_05]: We can work something out where in addition, in addition to the magazine, in addition to the videotape, we will, uh, give you the, uh, the access needed to read that page.
[01:07:51.220 --> 01:07:51.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: How's that?
[01:07:51.980 --> 01:07:52.180]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[01:07:52.380 --> 01:07:52.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[01:07:52.660 --> 01:07:53.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: Fair enough.
[01:07:53.220 --> 01:07:53.580]  [SPEAKER_05]: Fair enough.
[01:07:53.580 --> 01:07:55.400]  [SPEAKER_05]: This is open information, you know?
[01:07:55.540 --> 01:07:56.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: Freedom of information here.
[01:07:56.640 --> 01:07:58.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: 212-279-3400.
[01:07:58.640 --> 01:08:00.160]  [SPEAKER_05]: We have two callers on the line.
[01:08:00.300 --> 01:08:01.580]  [SPEAKER_05]: Let's make it another five.
[01:08:01.780 --> 01:08:03.040]  [SPEAKER_05]: That will light every line up.
[01:08:03.180 --> 01:08:04.720]  [SPEAKER_05]: 212-279-3400.
[01:08:04.900 --> 01:08:05.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: Here's something.
[01:08:05.840 --> 01:08:08.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: In case you're, you're wondering what 2600 Magazine is all about.
[01:08:09.200 --> 01:08:13.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: This is the kind of news story that you will, you will hear, you will see in the magazine.
[01:08:13.360 --> 01:08:20.880]  [SPEAKER_05]: From the Bulletin of the Ministry of the Information of the Republic of Kosova, that's the Republic of Serbia near Albania.
[01:08:21.000 --> 01:08:23.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: This is dated August 22nd.
[01:08:23.240 --> 01:08:33.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: The presence of cordless telephones in numerous private Albanian homes has been of great concern to Serbian police authorities with the revelation that in some cases, police wave bans can be overheard.
[01:08:34.220 --> 01:08:46.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: Consequently, Serbian police have embarked upon a mass search of Albanian homes throughout communes of Kosova in order to seize telephones which police believe are being used to eavesdrop on police communication frequencies.
[01:08:46.780 --> 01:08:51.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: In many cases, families found in possession of such phones have been subjected to physical maltreatment.
[01:08:51.740 --> 01:08:59.560]  [SPEAKER_05]: Incidents of this type have been reported in different communes with over 54 telephones seized, each seizure accompanied by maltreatment of Albanian residents.
[01:09:00.120 --> 01:09:10.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: Albanians affected by this police action have pointed out that they had purchased the phones legally and with the full knowledge of Serbian telecommunication authorities and had paid up to 2,500 Deutschmarks in order to be connected.
[01:09:11.420 --> 01:09:22.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's an example of some of the things that happen in the rest of the world that you can relate to what's happening here and see how a couple of steps further would be a very, very bad scene indeed.
[01:09:22.380 --> 01:09:26.280]  [SPEAKER_05]: For instance, in this country it's now illegal to listen to cellular phone calls.
[01:09:26.300 --> 01:09:29.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's very hard to buy a scanner that has cellular capabilities.
[01:09:29.820 --> 01:09:32.100]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's between 800 and 900 megahertz.
[01:09:32.280 --> 01:09:33.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: They've actually gone and done this.
[01:09:33.620 --> 01:09:39.560]  [SPEAKER_05]: We've been talking about this for years on this radio program, but unfortunately we've been unable to stop it from happening.
[01:09:39.860 --> 01:09:42.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's now illegal to listen.
[01:09:42.300 --> 01:09:48.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, it always was illegal to listen, which was absurd in itself, but now it's virtually impossible to get a scanner that has that capability.
[01:09:49.060 --> 01:09:51.260]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now, why do we want to listen to cellular phone calls?
[01:09:51.400 --> 01:09:57.720]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, we don't really want to listen to them, but the fact of the matter is they're being broadcast on the radio spectrum unencrypted.
[01:09:57.720 --> 01:10:02.440]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now, that in itself should be something to tell you that it's not safe.
[01:10:02.440 --> 01:10:03.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's not secure.
[01:10:03.440 --> 01:10:04.260]  [SPEAKER_05]: You should know this.
[01:10:04.820 --> 01:10:17.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: By simply masking out that particular frequency and making it illegal to listen to it and impossible to buy a radio that has those frequencies, you're providing a false sense of security to customers that use cellular phones.
[01:10:17.820 --> 01:10:21.100]  [SPEAKER_05]: They think that people can't listen, but people can.
[01:10:21.260 --> 01:10:22.280]  [SPEAKER_05]: Certainly the government can.
[01:10:22.440 --> 01:10:26.060]  [SPEAKER_05]: Certainly they can access these scanners and listen in on various frequencies.
[01:10:26.060 --> 01:10:28.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: However, the rest of us are not allowed that.
[01:10:29.980 --> 01:10:36.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: A better solution would be to encrypt the conversations, but then, of course, the government wouldn't be able to listen in to the conversations in the first place.
[01:10:36.840 --> 01:10:38.280]  [SPEAKER_05]: So that won't work, will it?
[01:10:38.680 --> 01:10:43.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: You see, this is the kind of thing that is an ongoing discussion both on this radio program and in 2600 Magazine.
[01:10:44.780 --> 01:10:50.060]  [SPEAKER_05]: And relating it to what's going on in Serbia is something that we need to do.
[01:10:50.060 --> 01:11:02.260]  [SPEAKER_05]: We need to see how these ill-informed policies can become very dangerous policies, can be used against human rights, can be used to hurt people.
[01:11:02.740 --> 01:11:09.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I remember a few years ago, you had to have your typewriters registered in Romania.
[01:11:09.340 --> 01:11:13.180]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, that's another example of how crazy things can get.
[01:11:13.180 --> 01:11:15.040]  [SPEAKER_05]: But how crazy is that, really?
[01:11:15.140 --> 01:11:22.680]  [SPEAKER_05]: Do you think one day, maybe, because of all the child pornography being peddled on the net, we might have to register all of our computers so everybody knows who's where?
[01:11:23.260 --> 01:11:28.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: There's definitely a move afoot to get things under control.
[01:11:28.720 --> 01:11:34.760]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, the authorities feel that they've lost control and that they need to keep track of what's going on.
[01:11:34.820 --> 01:11:37.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: Everybody needs to have a tracking device of some sort.
[01:11:37.920 --> 01:11:38.880]  [SPEAKER_05]: It sounds crazy.
[01:11:39.060 --> 01:11:41.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: It sounds crazy, but it's happening.
[01:11:41.560 --> 01:11:44.320]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's happening all the time, in little, tiny steps.
[01:11:44.640 --> 01:11:51.040]  [SPEAKER_05]: And when you look back and see how far you've gone, see how far the social security number has gone as far as becoming a person number.
[01:11:51.680 --> 01:11:54.220]  [SPEAKER_05]: 20 years ago, that was inconceivable.
[01:11:54.420 --> 01:11:58.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: Today, everybody uses their social security number for everything from the phone company to registering for school.
[01:11:59.640 --> 01:12:01.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's just the way it is.
[01:12:01.880 --> 01:12:03.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: So we need to keep an eye on these things.
[01:12:04.000 --> 01:12:05.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: And off the hook is one way of doing that.
[01:12:05.980 --> 01:12:08.720]  [SPEAKER_05]: If you support, off the hook, please give us a call now.
[01:12:08.860 --> 01:12:10.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: 212-279-3400.
[01:12:11.320 --> 01:12:12.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: We need to hear from you.
[01:12:12.720 --> 01:12:15.680]  [SPEAKER_05]: We're up to 1075, which is nice.
[01:12:15.780 --> 01:12:18.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: It means we've gotten a couple of phone calls, but it's not nearly enough.
[01:12:19.120 --> 01:12:20.720]  [SPEAKER_05]: I know, I don't want to sound like an ingrate.
[01:12:20.960 --> 01:12:26.800]  [SPEAKER_05]: We thank the people that called in so far, but we need to hear from more of you because we know you're out there, for one thing.
[01:12:27.740 --> 01:12:28.740]  [SPEAKER_05]: They'll make us call you.
[01:12:28.880 --> 01:12:29.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: We know you're out there.
[01:12:31.120 --> 01:12:31.640]  [SPEAKER_05]: All right.
[01:12:32.720 --> 01:12:34.060]  [SPEAKER_05]: 212-279-3400.
[01:12:34.060 --> 01:12:37.260]  [SPEAKER_05]: A lot of people get information.
[01:12:37.760 --> 01:12:38.140]  [SPEAKER_05]: All right.
[01:12:38.220 --> 01:12:39.160]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm going to prove it right now.
[01:12:40.020 --> 01:12:41.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm going to prove it right now.
[01:12:42.440 --> 01:12:49.240]  [SPEAKER_05]: If you have a question of any sort, or an observation of any sort, give us a call now on our special line to be on the air.
[01:12:49.360 --> 01:12:51.460]  [SPEAKER_05]: 212-279-3407.
[01:12:56.190 --> 01:12:57.780]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, that didn't take long, did it?
[01:12:58.150 --> 01:13:00.610]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now, you see how quickly people call in on that line?
[01:13:00.690 --> 01:13:01.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's all filled up now.
[01:13:01.790 --> 01:13:02.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: All the lines are taken up.
[01:13:03.500 --> 01:13:05.580]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now, you see how... I'll take the calls, too.
[01:13:05.690 --> 01:13:11.880]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm not going to... I'm not going to, you know, confuse people by giving out a number and not taking the phone calls in the first place.
[01:13:13.070 --> 01:13:15.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: But, that's the kind of response we need on the other lines.
[01:13:17.330 --> 01:13:18.580]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's very important.
[01:13:19.870 --> 01:13:21.230]  [SPEAKER_05]: 212-279-3400.
[01:13:21.360 --> 01:13:23.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now, there's definitely people out there because they just responded to me.
[01:13:25.070 --> 01:13:26.800]  [SPEAKER_05]: Please, give us a call now.
[01:13:26.960 --> 01:13:28.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: 212-279-3400.
[01:13:28.800 --> 01:13:34.040]  [SPEAKER_05]: If you do not give us a call, and if everybody doesn't give us a call, we just become weaker.
[01:13:35.210 --> 01:13:38.440]  [SPEAKER_05]: Think of the people that will be happy by us being weaker.
[01:13:39.110 --> 01:13:39.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: All right.
[01:13:39.770 --> 01:13:43.270]  [SPEAKER_05]: I've said enough, but I hope that the point has been made.
[01:13:43.650 --> 01:13:45.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: 212-279-3400.
[01:13:46.240 --> 01:13:47.580]  [SPEAKER_05]: Please give us a call.
[01:13:47.780 --> 01:13:48.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: We're speaking to you.
[01:13:51.540 --> 01:13:52.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: Good evening, you're on.
[01:13:53.340 --> 01:13:53.780]  [SPEAKER_07]: Hi.
[01:13:54.080 --> 01:13:54.360]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.
[01:13:55.270 --> 01:13:58.920]  [SPEAKER_07]: If my account wasn't overdrawn today, maybe I'd give you guys some money.
[01:13:59.110 --> 01:14:01.240]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, you know, we take credit cards.
[01:14:01.530 --> 01:14:02.940]  [SPEAKER_07]: We take credit, I suppose.
[01:14:03.190 --> 01:14:03.400]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[01:14:03.580 --> 01:14:04.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: Visa and MasterCard.
[01:14:04.740 --> 01:14:09.480]  [SPEAKER_07]: That would be a bad idea right now, but maybe next month I'll have some money, and I'd like to give you money.
[01:14:09.700 --> 01:14:09.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[01:14:10.070 --> 01:14:16.160]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, why don't you tell the people out there who aren't in such dire straits why you think it's important to give money to this radio station?
[01:14:16.840 --> 01:14:20.690]  [SPEAKER_07]: There are less and less sources of real information out there.
[01:14:20.690 --> 01:14:32.730]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's true that I get on Internet every day, and I listen to CNN, and I watch C-SPAN, and I guess you could get lulled into a false sense of having knowledge about all the information that's out there.
[01:14:32.730 --> 01:14:35.230]  [SPEAKER_07]: But something's missing.
[01:14:35.380 --> 01:14:38.840]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's kind of like reading Animal Farm.
[01:14:38.980 --> 01:14:44.340]  [SPEAKER_07]: The animals notice that something's missing from the Constitution, but they don't know exactly what.
[01:14:44.580 --> 01:14:52.860]  [SPEAKER_07]: And listening to WBAI actually helps me to get back to the center again, and see what's going on.
[01:14:52.860 --> 01:15:03.980]  [SPEAKER_07]: But what I would like to ask you, just to change the subject for a moment, is how do you get onto the real alt-2600 on Internet, the one that they say the real hackers go on?
[01:15:04.750 --> 01:15:08.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, I don't know who's saying that, but there is really only one alt-2600.
[01:15:08.230 --> 01:15:09.320]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's a USENET news group.
[01:15:09.420 --> 01:15:11.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: There's no way to distinguish between one and another.
[01:15:11.980 --> 01:15:18.380]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, there are some hackers who seem to say that there's... that's not the real one.
[01:15:18.460 --> 01:15:25.800]  [SPEAKER_07]: The one, you know, anyone can get isn't nearly as interesting, they say, as the hidden news.
[01:15:25.800 --> 01:15:28.270]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, that sounds like a hacker-lorer.
[01:15:28.360 --> 01:15:29.040]  [SPEAKER_05]: What do you say, Walter?
[01:15:29.300 --> 01:15:32.480]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, I think that's someone trying to play with you.
[01:15:32.700 --> 01:15:34.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: Someone's trying to yank your chains there, because...
[01:15:34.840 --> 01:15:36.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: Where do you get your service from?
[01:15:37.030 --> 01:15:38.900]  [SPEAKER_07]: I get it from Panix right now.
[01:15:39.080 --> 01:15:40.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, Panix has a full feed.
[01:15:40.420 --> 01:15:42.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: I know they get everything from alt-2600.
[01:15:42.540 --> 01:15:57.980]  [SPEAKER_07]: You know, my cable company, Cablevision, is doing testing now on Internet access, and luckily I get to talk to the people who are in charge there, and I'm trying to convince them that it's important for them not to try to censor or police, because, after all,
[01:15:58.000 --> 01:16:00.120]  [SPEAKER_07]: the phone company doesn't truly do that.
[01:16:00.420 --> 01:16:02.340]  [SPEAKER_07]: So why should the cable company...
[01:16:02.340 --> 01:16:03.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, have they...
[01:16:03.340 --> 01:16:04.420]  [SPEAKER_07]: ...only considering it?
[01:16:04.540 --> 01:16:06.150]  [SPEAKER_05]: Have they expressed an interest in this?
[01:16:06.340 --> 01:16:07.200]  [SPEAKER_07]: In censoring?
[01:16:07.360 --> 01:16:07.580]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yes.
[01:16:07.980 --> 01:16:08.780]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yes, they have.
[01:16:08.780 --> 01:16:09.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: And how have they done this?
[01:16:10.670 --> 01:16:11.860]  [SPEAKER_07]: How have they done it?
[01:16:11.940 --> 01:16:12.190]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
[01:16:12.570 --> 01:16:15.080]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, they haven't done anything yet, because they're only testing.
[01:16:15.690 --> 01:16:18.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, but how do you know that they are interested in censoring?
[01:16:18.580 --> 01:16:19.440]  [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, how have they done it?
[01:16:19.460 --> 01:16:25.380]  [SPEAKER_07]: Because I've spoken to the people who are in charge of giving Internet access to their cable subscribers.
[01:16:25.660 --> 01:16:27.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: And what are some of their concerns?
[01:16:27.080 --> 01:16:42.000]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, they're just concerned that they don't want people to do anything, quote, illegal, unquote, or, quote, unsavory, unquote, on their network equipment, you might say.
[01:16:42.200 --> 01:16:42.730]  [SPEAKER_05]: I see.
[01:16:43.300 --> 01:16:47.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, they definitely have the wrong idea as far as what the net is all about.
[01:16:47.340 --> 01:16:48.480]  [SPEAKER_07]: Right, it's important.
[01:16:48.770 --> 01:16:54.030]  [SPEAKER_07]: You know, as an Internet user since around 1983, I feel that I've had a little experience.
[01:16:54.690 --> 01:17:01.240]  [SPEAKER_07]: And I just think that my conversations with them are important, but I think other people need to make it clear to them.
[01:17:01.240 --> 01:17:14.120]  [SPEAKER_07]: People who are on the net and understand the net need to make cable companies who are just about to get into this business not get in the way of the freedom of information that the Internet has given up to this point.
[01:17:14.420 --> 01:17:14.500]  [SPEAKER_05]: Absolutely.
[01:17:14.690 --> 01:17:20.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I think it can draw some parallels between what we're trying to do here, what we're trying to do in the magazine, and what we're doing on the net.
[01:17:21.380 --> 01:17:22.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: It basically is...
[01:17:22.840 --> 01:17:23.460]  [SPEAKER_05]: I don't know.
[01:17:23.530 --> 01:17:31.800]  [SPEAKER_05]: I think it's sort of like a natural human instinct to just want to be able to express yourself freely and reach out and contact other people.
[01:17:32.040 --> 01:17:37.070]  [SPEAKER_05]: And it seems to be something we always have to fight for because there are those that say that kind of thing is dangerous.
[01:17:37.200 --> 01:17:38.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now, how can communication be dangerous?
[01:17:38.820 --> 01:17:44.040]  [SPEAKER_05]: How can talking to like-minded people and just sharing things be dangerous?
[01:17:44.270 --> 01:17:50.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, it can be if you have a certain set agenda that dictates that you don't want people to be able to do this.
[01:17:50.730 --> 01:17:51.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: You want to weaken them.
[01:17:51.650 --> 01:17:52.880]  [SPEAKER_05]: You want to have total control.
[01:17:53.570 --> 01:17:56.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: So, you know, it sounds really ominous.
[01:17:56.270 --> 01:17:56.500]  [SPEAKER_17]: I agree.
[01:17:56.740 --> 01:18:07.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: And it sounds a little paranoid, but when you just advance things a couple of steps, you see that there is a real danger in allowing that kind of thinking to dictate the way we all live.
[01:18:07.120 --> 01:18:09.860]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, it's just words for the most part.
[01:18:10.840 --> 01:18:13.000]  [SPEAKER_07]: So, what's so dangerous about words?
[01:18:13.530 --> 01:18:16.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: Words are probably the most dangerous thing there are in the eyes of those in control.
[01:18:17.200 --> 01:18:21.230]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I think that's true of any government, democratic, totalitarian, you name it.
[01:18:21.620 --> 01:18:21.980]  [SPEAKER_07]: Yes.
[01:18:21.980 --> 01:18:28.700]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, it just seems pretty bad when corporations such as Cablevision start taking on that role and feel that they need to.
[01:18:29.300 --> 01:18:42.820]  [SPEAKER_07]: I said to them that it's much simpler equipment-wise, especially, not to have any kind of filters, not to have any kind of watchers, whether software or human, and they're thinking about it.
[01:18:42.820 --> 01:18:44.150]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, let's hope that they do.
[01:18:44.280 --> 01:18:46.780]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I hope you continue to exercise some influence over them.
[01:18:47.000 --> 01:18:47.420]  [SPEAKER_07]: I'll try.
[01:18:47.660 --> 01:18:47.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: All right.
[01:18:47.900 --> 01:18:48.440]  [SPEAKER_05]: Thanks for calling.
[01:18:48.650 --> 01:18:48.920]  [SPEAKER_07]: Thank you.
[01:18:49.080 --> 01:18:49.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: All right.
[01:18:49.360 --> 01:18:50.730]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now, please, folks.
[01:18:51.710 --> 01:18:53.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: 212-279-3400.
[01:18:53.570 --> 01:18:53.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: Call us.
[01:18:54.080 --> 01:18:54.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: Show your support.
[01:18:55.460 --> 01:18:57.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: You see the importance of it.
[01:18:57.040 --> 01:19:03.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: You see the importance of one person being able to get out there and say something to somebody in a position of influence.
[01:19:04.230 --> 01:19:05.800]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, we all have that power.
[01:19:05.980 --> 01:19:09.650]  [SPEAKER_05]: And right now, tonight, especially, we all have the power to make a difference.
[01:19:09.650 --> 01:19:12.030]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, we're not making anything out of this.
[01:19:12.150 --> 01:19:20.150]  [SPEAKER_05]: We're not getting a commission for our particular radio programs as we try and raise money for the radio station.
[01:19:20.540 --> 01:19:22.300]  [SPEAKER_05]: We all benefit from this.
[01:19:22.570 --> 01:19:23.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: The radio station benefits.
[01:19:23.840 --> 01:19:24.650]  [SPEAKER_05]: The listeners benefit.
[01:19:24.920 --> 01:19:27.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: 212-279-3400.
[01:19:27.190 --> 01:19:34.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now, if you want the package of the videotape and the Hacker Quarterly for $100, please call us now.
[01:19:34.920 --> 01:19:37.320]  [SPEAKER_05]: If you want something else, there's all kinds of things.
[01:19:37.320 --> 01:19:40.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: There's all kinds of neat things that we have here at the radio station.
[01:19:41.200 --> 01:19:42.110]  [SPEAKER_05]: Please call us.
[01:19:42.200 --> 01:19:44.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: 212-279-3400.
[01:19:44.200 --> 01:19:51.570]  [SPEAKER_05]: There's a whole room full of volunteers, and they're just kind of sitting around right now, engaging in small talk because the phones are not ringing.
[01:19:52.550 --> 01:19:54.460]  [SPEAKER_05]: 212-279-3400.
[01:19:54.730 --> 01:19:56.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: Please give us a call.
[01:19:57.030 --> 01:19:57.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: Good evening.
[01:19:57.700 --> 01:19:58.190]  [SPEAKER_05]: You're on the radio.
[01:19:58.740 --> 01:19:59.540]  [SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, hi, Emmanuel.
[01:19:59.700 --> 01:20:00.780]  [SPEAKER_09]: This is Roy from New Jersey.
[01:20:00.900 --> 01:20:01.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: Hi.
[01:20:01.120 --> 01:20:01.460]  [SPEAKER_05]: How are you doing?
[01:20:01.460 --> 01:20:01.980]  [SPEAKER_09]: Okay.
[01:20:02.440 --> 01:20:06.900]  [SPEAKER_09]: You know, saying the words have power is really very apropos.
[01:20:07.000 --> 01:20:12.880]  [SPEAKER_09]: When I was driving back from a meeting, I turned on your station, and I heard this gentleman speaking, Robert Steele.
[01:20:13.070 --> 01:20:13.340]  [SPEAKER_17]: Mm-hmm.
[01:20:13.660 --> 01:20:17.110]  [SPEAKER_09]: And I started feeling very uneasy as I was listening to him.
[01:20:17.610 --> 01:20:26.820]  [SPEAKER_09]: And I started hearing, you know, very key phrases, and all of a sudden it was like, welcome back to the fold, you know, all you, like, crazy, weird, far-out hacker guys.
[01:20:27.150 --> 01:20:28.280]  [SPEAKER_09]: We really love you.
[01:20:28.380 --> 01:20:29.070]  [SPEAKER_09]: Come on back.
[01:20:29.230 --> 01:20:30.070]  [SPEAKER_09]: Work for us.
[01:20:30.440 --> 01:20:30.730]  [SPEAKER_08]: Mm-hmm.
[01:20:30.820 --> 01:20:37.340]  [SPEAKER_09]: And pretty soon he starts creating these boogeymen on the Internet, these crazy Muslims and all these other things.
[01:20:37.340 --> 01:20:41.380]  [SPEAKER_09]: Of course, nothing against their religion, mind you, but only those bad ones we don't want.
[01:20:41.730 --> 01:20:41.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: Right.
[01:20:42.110 --> 01:20:44.000]  [SPEAKER_09]: And I'm really getting nauseous.
[01:20:44.380 --> 01:20:44.690]  [SPEAKER_08]: Uh-huh.
[01:20:44.690 --> 01:20:49.200]  [SPEAKER_09]: And, you know, this, I was just, I just couldn't believe I was hearing this type of thing.
[01:20:49.480 --> 01:20:55.660]  [SPEAKER_09]: And then, of course, I came upstairs, I pulled my car in the apartment, I came upstairs, and at which point I hear that he was a member of the CIA.
[01:20:56.120 --> 01:20:56.460]  [SPEAKER_05]: Right.
[01:20:56.610 --> 01:20:57.730]  [SPEAKER_09]: Now I know his agenda.
[01:20:58.380 --> 01:20:58.500]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now.
[01:20:58.500 --> 01:21:03.440]  [SPEAKER_09]: And I was just, I was really upset even hearing that coming through my speaker, because I can get that from Ted Koppel.
[01:21:03.530 --> 01:21:04.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, yeah, that's true.
[01:21:04.360 --> 01:21:09.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: But sometimes you need to be upset to really hear what's going on out there.
[01:21:09.160 --> 01:21:10.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now, Robert Steele is a moderate.
[01:21:10.540 --> 01:21:13.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: He's somebody that, you know, that has a sense.
[01:21:13.840 --> 01:21:16.500]  [SPEAKER_09]: What passes for moderate now is still rather right-wing.
[01:21:16.500 --> 01:21:16.880]  [SPEAKER_09]: I know.
[01:21:17.030 --> 01:21:17.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, I agree with you totally.
[01:21:19.370 --> 01:21:25.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: But we need to be open to these things to hear what the people are saying and realize this is reality.
[01:21:25.660 --> 01:21:27.400]  [SPEAKER_05]: We have to somehow deal with it.
[01:21:27.460 --> 01:21:28.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now, how do we deal with it?
[01:21:28.500 --> 01:21:33.200]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, the first thing we do is we listen to what they're saying and look at how much power they have.
[01:21:33.540 --> 01:21:36.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, and we as computer hackers also have a lot of power.
[01:21:36.780 --> 01:21:38.200]  [SPEAKER_05]: Of course, we're not at all organized.
[01:21:38.200 --> 01:21:40.780]  [SPEAKER_05]: We just have our curiosity to guide us.
[01:21:41.270 --> 01:21:45.460]  [SPEAKER_05]: But there are a lot of people out there taking an interest in what we discover and what we do.
[01:21:45.610 --> 01:21:50.240]  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, there's been so much media attention devoted to us over the past year or so.
[01:21:51.630 --> 01:21:56.400]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's important that we not close our eyes and just assume everything's going to work out the way we want it to.
[01:21:57.070 --> 01:22:00.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: It only is going to work out if we pay attention to what's happening around us.
[01:22:00.920 --> 01:22:05.500]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I think listening to what Robert Steele says, listening to what other people say, is a good first step.
[01:22:05.980 --> 01:22:12.610]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, I'll tell you, I know there's a lot of young kids out there that are really into this stuff and they may not have a lot of parental...
[01:22:20.310 --> 01:22:21.620]  [SPEAKER_09]: ...wives are wrapped up in this.
[01:22:21.970 --> 01:22:27.290]  [SPEAKER_09]: And when they hear this great father image saying, welcome to the fold, I just want to say, warning, watch out.
[01:22:27.290 --> 01:22:29.810]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, that's an important message to heed.
[01:22:29.840 --> 01:22:30.890]  [SPEAKER_05]: I agree with you there.
[01:22:31.080 --> 01:22:38.630]  [SPEAKER_09]: I'm a long-time subscriber and what I do is I remind myself of what it felt like one day when I got in the car and I turned the radio on and there was nothing there.
[01:22:40.120 --> 01:22:43.840]  [SPEAKER_09]: And my stomach dropped out and I said, God damn it, Reagan got him.
[01:22:44.800 --> 01:22:45.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: What happened to us?
[01:22:46.130 --> 01:22:48.250]  [SPEAKER_09]: I think you went off the air for maybe a couple minutes.
[01:22:48.540 --> 01:22:48.730]  [SPEAKER_05]: Oh.
[01:22:49.720 --> 01:22:51.050]  [SPEAKER_09]: But my heart sunk.
[01:22:51.230 --> 01:23:00.050]  [SPEAKER_09]: And it was really scary because there's really no other form of media as far as electronic media that has what the AI offers.
[01:23:00.390 --> 01:23:01.670]  [SPEAKER_05]: You're absolutely right there.
[01:23:02.160 --> 01:23:06.810]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's something that is so precious, so rare, and something that...
[01:23:06.810 --> 01:23:07.710]  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, I've been traveling.
[01:23:07.880 --> 01:23:11.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: In fact, I have a great story to tell in a few minutes about traveling to other parts of the country.
[01:23:12.810 --> 01:23:15.470]  [SPEAKER_05]: And when you go to other parts of the country, you just don't hear this kind of thing.
[01:23:15.550 --> 01:23:20.970]  [SPEAKER_05]: You hear emptiness, or worse, you hear American contemporary music of various sorts.
[01:23:21.040 --> 01:23:23.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: And it's all the same, and the announcers all sound the same.
[01:23:23.770 --> 01:23:25.770]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's sad, but that's just the way it is.
[01:23:26.420 --> 01:23:27.500]  [SPEAKER_05]: New York is different.
[01:23:27.770 --> 01:23:28.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: WBAI is different.
[01:23:28.660 --> 01:23:31.230]  [SPEAKER_05]: We have a rich history dating back 30 years.
[01:23:31.920 --> 01:23:34.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, you know, we want to be here for another 30 years.
[01:23:34.510 --> 01:23:35.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: We want to be here for another 300 years.
[01:23:35.750 --> 01:23:37.350]  [SPEAKER_05]: As long as the FM spectrum is around.
[01:23:37.580 --> 01:23:41.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: But we can only do that if our listeners stay with us and continue to support us.
[01:23:41.160 --> 01:23:47.470]  [SPEAKER_05]: Because, God forbid, we ever have to start taking commercials because we don't get enough money from the listeners, all of a sudden the magic will disappear.
[01:23:47.710 --> 01:23:53.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: We'll be forced to, you know, to kind of tone down our remarks so that we don't offend Exxon, you know?
[01:23:53.340 --> 01:23:57.270]  [SPEAKER_05]: When's the last time you heard a commercial radio station really offend Exxon, or the phone company?
[01:23:57.470 --> 01:23:58.730]  [SPEAKER_09]: Hey, you're preaching to the choir here.
[01:23:58.850 --> 01:24:00.290]  [SPEAKER_09]: I'm going to back off and listen to your show.
[01:24:00.430 --> 01:24:00.670]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[01:24:00.880 --> 01:24:01.710]  [SPEAKER_05]: Hey, thanks for calling.
[01:24:02.540 --> 01:24:06.790]  [SPEAKER_05]: I think in many, many cases our listeners say it better than we do here.
[01:24:06.960 --> 01:24:08.470]  [SPEAKER_05]: We have two phone calls on the line.
[01:24:09.180 --> 01:24:10.730]  [SPEAKER_05]: 212-279-3400.
[01:24:10.930 --> 01:24:11.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: Please give us a call.
[01:24:11.730 --> 01:24:12.290]  [SPEAKER_05]: Show your support.
[01:24:12.470 --> 01:24:14.230]  [SPEAKER_05]: Add your support to those people already on the line.
[01:24:14.390 --> 01:24:17.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: Because you'll see, together, we make a difference.
[01:24:18.420 --> 01:24:19.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: Individually, we make a difference.
[01:24:19.700 --> 01:24:27.500]  [SPEAKER_05]: But together, when we link hands and join up and become a part of the whole process, that's real power.
[01:24:27.500 --> 01:24:30.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: 212-279-3400.
[01:24:30.900 --> 01:24:33.090]  [SPEAKER_05]: Got to take a quick musical break here.
[01:24:33.720 --> 01:24:36.630]  [SPEAKER_05]: And we'll be back with some more info.
[01:24:36.630 --> 01:24:38.730]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I've got an interesting story to tell.
[01:24:38.890 --> 01:24:40.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: And who knows what other surprises we might have.
[01:24:41.010 --> 01:24:42.250]  [SPEAKER_05]: But please keep those phones ringing.
[01:24:43.400 --> 01:24:45.390]  [SPEAKER_05]: 212-279-3400.
[01:24:46.200 --> 01:24:49.050]  [SPEAKER_05]: This is WBAI in New York.
[01:25:10.470 --> 01:25:11.490]  [SPEAKER_24]: Hey, Rasta man.
[01:25:11.690 --> 01:25:12.170]  [SPEAKER_24]: Nice wig.
[01:25:12.290 --> 01:25:13.210]  [SPEAKER_24]: You wanna buy a gun?
[01:25:13.710 --> 01:25:14.370]  [SPEAKER_20]: No, man.
[01:25:14.850 --> 01:25:15.350]  [SPEAKER_20]: No, man.
[01:25:15.410 --> 01:25:17.150]  [SPEAKER_20]: Everybody in America has a gun.
[01:25:17.570 --> 01:25:18.070]  [SPEAKER_20]: Watch that.
[01:25:18.170 --> 01:25:20.950]  [SPEAKER_20]: Just because I have locks upon her head don't mean I have to carry a M-16.
[01:25:21.310 --> 01:25:22.970]  [SPEAKER_20]: Don't get upset about it, man.
[01:25:23.050 --> 01:25:25.270]  [SPEAKER_20]: I thought all you rock the wig-eyed types had guns.
[01:25:25.310 --> 01:25:27.510]  [SPEAKER_20]: Well, I'm on gong for sure you'd say that's a misconception.
[01:25:27.770 --> 01:25:30.330]  [SPEAKER_20]: Boy, I feel like grab the mic, tell everybody, say, check this.
[01:25:31.230 --> 01:25:35.830]  [SPEAKER_20]: All around in the city, I see dreads and pistols at their sides.
[01:25:35.830 --> 01:25:38.250]  [SPEAKER_20]: Fighting guns, show wars with bullets.
[01:25:38.630 --> 01:25:40.650]  [SPEAKER_20]: And running for their very lives.
[01:25:41.210 --> 01:25:43.390]  [SPEAKER_20]: Now it's so hard to accept them.
[01:25:44.190 --> 01:25:45.890]  [SPEAKER_20]: The Rasta man's under attack.
[01:25:51.700 --> 01:25:52.940]  [SPEAKER_20]: So I cry wolf.
[01:25:53.780 --> 01:25:55.980]  [SPEAKER_20]: I'm gonna cry wolf.
[01:25:56.760 --> 01:25:58.280]  [SPEAKER_20]: It's time to cry wolf.
[01:25:59.220 --> 01:26:01.360]  [SPEAKER_20]: I and I cry wolf.
[01:26:01.840 --> 01:26:02.900]  [SPEAKER_20]: I cry wolf.
[01:26:03.580 --> 01:26:05.000]  [SPEAKER_20]: So let me get this straight.
[01:26:05.140 --> 01:26:06.400]  [SPEAKER_20]: You don't want a gun.
[01:26:06.520 --> 01:26:07.820]  [SPEAKER_20]: You're not wearing a wig.
[01:26:08.040 --> 01:26:09.500]  [SPEAKER_20]: And you're not telling me no shit.
[01:26:09.500 --> 01:26:11.820]  [SPEAKER_20]: Hey, hear what I'm gonna have to say now.
[01:26:12.160 --> 01:26:14.040]  [SPEAKER_20]: I'm gonna live my life, italy, naturally.
[01:26:14.340 --> 01:26:15.860]  [SPEAKER_20]: I'm on works called from the Bible.
[01:26:16.080 --> 01:26:17.860]  [SPEAKER_20]: So I don't deal with no folly like Babylon.
[01:26:18.220 --> 01:26:20.080]  [SPEAKER_20]: A man has paid according to his works.
[01:26:20.360 --> 01:26:21.980]  [SPEAKER_20]: Soldier I say, check this.
[01:26:21.980 --> 01:26:25.480]  [SPEAKER_20]: I was at a reggae dance in Brooklyn.
[01:26:25.900 --> 01:26:27.140]  [SPEAKER_20]: The mood was set.
[01:26:27.220 --> 01:26:28.240]  [SPEAKER_20]: The sound was nice.
[01:26:28.680 --> 01:26:30.860]  [SPEAKER_20]: Until the crowd started to scatter.
[01:26:31.340 --> 01:26:33.420]  [SPEAKER_20]: And then a locksman pulled a knife.
[01:26:33.980 --> 01:26:36.060]  [SPEAKER_20]: Now when I saw the two men fighting.
[01:26:36.620 --> 01:26:38.360]  [SPEAKER_20]: A sadness grew inside my wolf.
[01:26:49.240 --> 01:26:51.040]  [SPEAKER_20]: I wanna cry wolf.
[01:26:51.760 --> 01:26:54.020]  [SPEAKER_20]: I and I cry wolf.
[01:26:54.020 --> 01:26:55.700]  [SPEAKER_20]: I cry wolf.
[01:26:55.700 --> 01:26:55.900]  [SPEAKER_20]: I cry wolf.
[01:27:02.420 --> 01:27:05.960]  [SPEAKER_19]: Woe be unto the pastors that lead our sheep astray.
[01:27:06.420 --> 01:27:10.400]  [SPEAKER_19]: And to the leaders that calls us to err in our ways.
[01:27:11.780 --> 01:27:12.460]  [SPEAKER_19]: Selah.
[01:27:15.870 --> 01:27:19.550]  [SPEAKER_20]: For banish I'll be called, but just a few chosen.
[01:27:21.310 --> 01:27:23.470]  [SPEAKER_20]: So be cautious of the wolf.
[01:27:23.870 --> 01:27:26.510]  [SPEAKER_20]: Hiding beneath the sheep's clung within.
[01:27:26.850 --> 01:27:28.690]  [SPEAKER_20]: His head to fear is like the pure wool.
[01:27:29.090 --> 01:27:31.570]  [SPEAKER_20]: His eyes are like the fiery flame.
[01:27:31.910 --> 01:27:33.790]  [SPEAKER_20]: The lion of the tribe of Judah.
[01:27:34.290 --> 01:27:36.870]  [SPEAKER_20]: And Rastafari is his name.
[01:27:36.870 --> 01:27:39.210]  [SPEAKER_20]: So with you and wicked intentions.
[01:27:47.370 --> 01:27:48.790]  [SPEAKER_20]: And so I cry wolf.
[01:27:49.250 --> 01:27:51.730]  [SPEAKER_20]: I'm gonna cry wolf.
[01:27:52.510 --> 01:27:54.230]  [SPEAKER_20]: I wanna cry wolf.
[01:27:54.810 --> 01:27:56.890]  [SPEAKER_20]: I and I cry wolf.
[01:27:57.630 --> 01:27:59.230]  [SPEAKER_20]: I'm gonna cry wolf.
[01:27:59.770 --> 01:28:02.050]  [SPEAKER_20]: I want to cry wolf.
[01:28:02.910 --> 01:28:04.730]  [SPEAKER_20]: It's time to cry wolf.
[01:28:05.450 --> 01:28:07.270]  [SPEAKER_20]: Rastaman cry wolf.
[01:28:08.410 --> 01:28:09.690]  [SPEAKER_20]: Cry wolf.
[01:28:09.850 --> 01:28:10.950]  [SPEAKER_20]: Cry wolf.
[01:28:11.350 --> 01:28:12.530]  [SPEAKER_20]: Cry wolf.
[01:28:13.690 --> 01:28:14.930]  [SPEAKER_20]: Cry wolf.
[01:28:15.250 --> 01:28:16.130]  [SPEAKER_20]: Cry wolf.
[01:28:16.490 --> 01:28:17.610]  [SPEAKER_20]: Cry wolf.
[01:28:18.730 --> 01:28:19.310]  [SPEAKER_20]: Cry wolf.
[01:28:20.850 --> 01:28:20.950]  Cry wolf.
[01:28:20.950 --> 01:28:20.990]  Cry wolf.
[01:28:20.990 --> 01:28:22.930]  [SPEAKER_20]: I guess you don't wanna buy a gun.
[01:28:24.130 --> 01:28:25.430]  [SPEAKER_20]: You got that right, man.
[01:28:30.630 --> 01:28:32.030]  [SPEAKER_20]: Maybe I got a jersey.
[01:28:35.770 --> 01:28:37.170]  [SPEAKER_20]: A message to Babylon.
[01:28:38.170 --> 01:28:38.830]  [SPEAKER_20]: Back off.
[01:28:38.830 --> 01:28:39.450]  [SPEAKER_20]: Back off!
[01:29:09.460 --> 01:29:12.130]  [SPEAKER_05]: We're not crying wolf when we say we need your support.
[01:29:15.770 --> 01:29:18.320]  [SPEAKER_05]: 212-279-3400
[01:29:26.600 --> 01:29:28.200]  [SPEAKER_05]: Shout out to Self-Defense.
[01:29:29.160 --> 01:29:33.800]  [SPEAKER_05]: QBrit and the WUSB crew for putting this particular record out several years ago.
[01:29:39.860 --> 01:29:41.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: Some valuable messages enclosed.
[01:29:42.700 --> 01:29:53.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: The most valuable message for the moment, however, is to call 212-279-3400 Show your support for non-commercial radio.
[01:29:54.400 --> 01:29:56.320]  [SPEAKER_05]: For alternative ideas.
[01:29:57.240 --> 01:29:59.020]  [SPEAKER_05]: And just for standing together.
[01:30:01.740 --> 01:30:09.780]  [SPEAKER_05]: So we can tell our stories and be able to get out there.
[01:30:10.160 --> 01:30:10.800]  [SPEAKER_05]: Reach the people.
[01:30:11.020 --> 01:30:12.040]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's the important thing.
[01:30:12.180 --> 01:30:14.280]  [SPEAKER_05]: 212-279-3400
[01:30:19.240 --> 01:30:28.780]  [SPEAKER_05]: Hey, you know, I took a trip this past weekend down to North Carolina.
[01:30:28.780 --> 01:30:31.020]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's right, Jesse Helms territory.
[01:30:31.900 --> 01:30:32.580]  [SPEAKER_05]: Oh boy.
[01:30:32.900 --> 01:30:37.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's really alien land down there as far as the eye can see.
[01:30:38.780 --> 01:30:43.020]  [SPEAKER_05]: The way I went down there, I took a train down to Washington, D.C.
[01:30:43.160 --> 01:30:48.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: And then rented a car and drove through Virginia, through North Carolina to a place called Charlotte.
[01:30:49.880 --> 01:30:52.020]  [SPEAKER_05]: Which in itself is not a bad place at all.
[01:30:52.140 --> 01:30:53.720]  [SPEAKER_05]: In fact, they're getting a football team next year.
[01:30:53.840 --> 01:30:54.160]  [SPEAKER_05]: Do you know that?
[01:30:54.160 --> 01:30:58.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: They haven't built the stadium yet, but hey, they're gonna...
[01:30:58.360 --> 01:31:00.060]  [SPEAKER_05]: They say they will anyway.
[01:31:03.780 --> 01:31:13.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: And you know, for the most part, I'd have to say that even though Jesse Helms has control over the place, it's not that bad, you know?
[01:31:13.200 --> 01:31:14.670]  [SPEAKER_05]: It seemed kind of nice.
[01:31:15.580 --> 01:31:17.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, people there were friendly.
[01:31:17.210 --> 01:31:25.320]  [SPEAKER_05]: People there were able to, you know, speak English or whatever language you wanted to speak.
[01:31:26.340 --> 01:31:27.590]  [SPEAKER_05]: Understand where you're coming from.
[01:31:27.980 --> 01:31:29.200]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, they were human beings.
[01:31:29.280 --> 01:31:36.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: It was kind of like that whole philosophical thing where you kind of wake up to the fact that we're all brothers here on this planet.
[01:31:36.540 --> 01:31:38.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: And we all have to start getting together.
[01:31:38.740 --> 01:31:42.750]  [SPEAKER_05]: We all have to help each other and support each other.
[01:31:44.480 --> 01:31:45.710]  [SPEAKER_05]: And it was kind of nice.
[01:31:49.040 --> 01:31:51.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: That is, until I started driving home.
[01:31:52.540 --> 01:31:53.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's right.
[01:31:53.160 --> 01:31:54.210]  [SPEAKER_05]: I drove home yesterday.
[01:31:55.080 --> 01:31:58.170]  [SPEAKER_05]: The old return trip was from Charlotte to Washington, D.C.
[01:31:58.880 --> 01:32:03.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: And you know, I've been stopped by cops many, many, many times in my life.
[01:32:03.960 --> 01:32:05.040]  [SPEAKER_05]: I don't know why.
[01:32:05.240 --> 01:32:06.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: Maybe it's because I look bizarre.
[01:32:06.380 --> 01:32:06.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: I don't know.
[01:32:07.130 --> 01:32:08.780]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's always a good starting point.
[01:32:08.940 --> 01:32:18.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, people stop you because, you know, you're black, you're young, you have long hair, you have a bumper sticker on the back of your car that says death to pigs or something like that.
[01:32:18.520 --> 01:32:19.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, you know, I didn't have that.
[01:32:20.080 --> 01:32:20.460]  [SPEAKER_05]: Don't worry.
[01:32:20.620 --> 01:32:23.170]  [SPEAKER_05]: But I can't imagine why people do that to their cars.
[01:32:24.240 --> 01:32:26.590]  [SPEAKER_05]: Actually, maybe I can after some of these incidents.
[01:32:26.780 --> 01:32:35.200]  [SPEAKER_05]: But in all the time that I've been pulled over by various law enforcement agencies, I think maybe I've gotten one ticket out of it all.
[01:32:35.400 --> 01:32:38.020]  [SPEAKER_05]: And it's been fairly cordial for the most part.
[01:32:38.700 --> 01:32:52.040]  [SPEAKER_05]: Of course, there were the times entering the country from foreign lands, such as Canada, where I've been searched extensively and looked over like I was, you know, some kind of mastermind criminal.
[01:32:53.400 --> 01:32:55.050]  [SPEAKER_05]: Real mastermind criminal, that is.
[01:32:55.210 --> 01:32:56.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: Not just thought crime.
[01:32:57.710 --> 01:33:07.710]  [SPEAKER_05]: And then, of course, there are a couple of times in foreign countries, such as Yugoslavia and East Germany, where people were kind of suspicious of Grateful Dead t-shirts, among other things.
[01:33:08.290 --> 01:33:12.590]  [SPEAKER_05]: But again, it all passed without bloodshed, without any kind of real unpleasantness.
[01:33:12.700 --> 01:33:14.710]  [SPEAKER_05]: And for the most part, it was an educational experience.
[01:33:14.900 --> 01:33:21.880]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, on this particular occasion, I was driving down Interstate 85, going north actually on 85.
[01:33:22.840 --> 01:33:30.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, you know, I passed by this, I guess it was an accident scene or something, some kind of scene where there was a police presence.
[01:33:30.860 --> 01:33:39.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: And did what everybody else does, went at a nice normal speed instead of the usual 75 miles an hour that everybody seems to go down there.
[01:33:39.900 --> 01:33:55.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I kept within the confines of traffic and realized that there were now police right behind that will probably be leaving that accident scene and zooming up at 120 miles an hour, trying to find other people that are going 66 miles an hour instead.
[01:33:56.760 --> 01:34:00.170]  [SPEAKER_05]: So I kept a nice conservative speed, so did everybody else.
[01:34:00.290 --> 01:34:02.160]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's kind of the language of the highway when you do that.
[01:34:02.250 --> 01:34:07.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, you pass by some policemen, you know that they're going to eventually catch up to you, so you kind of take it easy for a while.
[01:34:07.700 --> 01:34:15.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: And so I did that, and I noticed as I was driving, I was in the right-hand lane, and I was coming up on this car that was going excessively slow.
[01:34:15.540 --> 01:34:22.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now, I should also point out that in North Carolina, there are an abundance of really absurdly slow drivers.
[01:34:23.780 --> 01:34:29.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now, I have a theory that many times these people are just trying to refine their driving skills.
[01:34:29.860 --> 01:34:38.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: For instance, as you're driving down a particular road, someone is making a left turn, and you're right behind them, you're going straight, and there's only one lane, so you can't pass around them.
[01:34:38.520 --> 01:34:47.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: And they go about maybe three miles an hour as they're making this left-hand turn, and, you know, the whole turn can take up to 45 seconds.
[01:34:47.280 --> 01:34:50.130]  [SPEAKER_05]: But what I believe they're trying to do is master the perfect turn.
[01:34:50.460 --> 01:34:59.500]  [SPEAKER_05]: And you have some pretty good turners down there, because they don't cross any of the lines they're not supposed to cross, and they, you know, apart from the slowness, they do a pretty good job.
[01:34:59.500 --> 01:35:09.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: So the thing that you have to really develop in North Carolina is patience, you know, for these slower people that always wind up in front of you.
[01:35:09.660 --> 01:35:14.460]  [SPEAKER_05]: So there was one of these people right in front of me on the highway as I was coming up on them.
[01:35:15.250 --> 01:35:18.170]  [SPEAKER_05]: And so I started to do what any normal person would do.
[01:35:18.340 --> 01:35:19.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: I slowed down.
[01:35:19.320 --> 01:35:23.200]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, that's what you do when someone is ahead of you and going 40 miles an hour in a 65 zone.
[01:35:23.440 --> 01:35:24.290]  [SPEAKER_05]: I started slowing down.
[01:35:24.290 --> 01:35:28.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I was thinking, you know, I should pass this person because this is not the way I want to travel.
[01:35:28.710 --> 01:35:35.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: But I looked in my rearview mirror, and I saw this car coming up really, really fast in the lane right to the left of me.
[01:35:35.460 --> 01:35:40.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: So I said, okay, I'm going to postpone my decision to pass this person until after that person passes me.
[01:35:41.240 --> 01:35:43.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: And so I continued to slow down behind this other person.
[01:35:44.660 --> 01:35:53.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: However, the nincompoop that was coming up behind me in the left lane decides to slow down right in my blind spot.
[01:35:54.040 --> 01:36:02.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, that means if I hadn't turned around to look in that blind spot and tried to make that left turn, I would have smacked right into this person.
[01:36:02.170 --> 01:36:05.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: Kind of dumb, if you ask me, but the person stayed in my blind spot.
[01:36:05.630 --> 01:36:11.580]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I'm trying to, like, deal with the situation because I have this slow person in front of me.
[01:36:11.580 --> 01:36:17.440]  [SPEAKER_05]: I have this guy hanging out in my blind spot, apparently quite content to remain there to the left of me.
[01:36:18.000 --> 01:36:20.400]  [SPEAKER_05]: And all I want to do is resume at normal speed.
[01:36:20.580 --> 01:36:25.790]  [SPEAKER_05]: So, you know, I continue to slow down to wait for somebody to do something so I can get around someone.
[01:36:26.560 --> 01:36:33.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: And eventually the person to the left of me backs off a little bit, allowing me enough space to move ahead of him, which is what I do.
[01:36:34.380 --> 01:36:39.050]  [SPEAKER_05]: And the moment I do that, I realize that the person that has been hiding in my blind spot is a cop.
[01:36:40.140 --> 01:36:40.500]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[01:36:40.880 --> 01:36:42.090]  [SPEAKER_05]: And he pulls me over.
[01:36:42.860 --> 01:36:46.020]  [SPEAKER_05]: Pulls me over onto the side of the road and I'm really baffled.
[01:36:46.130 --> 01:36:47.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: What could this person be pulling me over for?
[01:36:47.840 --> 01:36:49.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: I wasn't doing anything.
[01:36:49.290 --> 01:36:52.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: I was trying to pass somebody.
[01:36:52.290 --> 01:36:58.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: I certainly wasn't speeding because ever since I passed that accident scene, I wasn't going fast at all.
[01:36:58.090 --> 01:36:59.750]  [SPEAKER_05]: So, what could this person possibly want?
[01:36:59.960 --> 01:37:03.040]  [SPEAKER_05]: So, he walks over to the passenger side.
[01:37:03.280 --> 01:37:04.880]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now, usually they walk over to the driver's side.
[01:37:04.980 --> 01:37:06.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I'm an expert on this because I've been pulled over so many times.
[01:37:06.900 --> 01:37:10.710]  [SPEAKER_05]: But this person walked over to the passenger side.
[01:37:11.280 --> 01:37:14.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, you know, I kind of wave at him because the window's closed.
[01:37:14.820 --> 01:37:17.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I'm trying to figure out how to open it because it's one of these automated things.
[01:37:17.630 --> 01:37:19.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I'm never quite sure which button opens which window.
[01:37:20.500 --> 01:37:26.130]  [SPEAKER_05]: And so, I managed to open it and he asked me to step outside for a minute.
[01:37:26.290 --> 01:37:28.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I say, okay, great, I'll do that.
[01:37:29.240 --> 01:37:30.590]  [SPEAKER_05]: Get out, go to the back.
[01:37:30.740 --> 01:37:36.090]  [SPEAKER_05]: And he says, first of all, do you have any weapons on you?
[01:37:36.660 --> 01:37:38.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: Kind of a strange question to ask.
[01:37:38.670 --> 01:37:40.240]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I say, no, I don't have any weapons on me.
[01:37:40.660 --> 01:37:42.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: Then the guy proceeds to search me.
[01:37:42.980 --> 01:37:44.210]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, right there on the highway.
[01:37:44.400 --> 01:37:45.440]  [SPEAKER_05]: He's going through my pockets.
[01:37:45.760 --> 01:37:48.040]  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, how do you deal with a situation like that?
[01:37:48.040 --> 01:37:49.790]  [SPEAKER_05]: I've never been searched on a highway before.
[01:37:49.960 --> 01:37:52.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: I've had plenty of cops pull me over, but no one has ever done that.
[01:37:53.000 --> 01:37:54.750]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm told that this is standard down there.
[01:37:54.900 --> 01:37:57.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: And at the moment, I didn't know what was standard and what wasn't.
[01:37:57.940 --> 01:38:01.500]  [SPEAKER_05]: I felt the best thing to do was just, you know, play along and see where this thing went.
[01:38:02.340 --> 01:38:08.050]  [SPEAKER_05]: Then after searching me and going through my pockets and all that kind of thing, he says, okay, you want to sit in my car for a little while?
[01:38:08.210 --> 01:38:08.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: He's like, yeah, sure.
[01:38:08.980 --> 01:38:10.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: I've never sat in a police car before.
[01:38:10.520 --> 01:38:11.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: That sounds like fun.
[01:38:12.240 --> 01:38:22.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: So I sat in the passenger side, and he explained to me that the reason he pulled me over was because I was going too slow behind this guy in front of me.
[01:38:22.860 --> 01:38:27.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I said to him, you know, the reason I was going behind this guy was you were in my blind spot.
[01:38:27.480 --> 01:38:30.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, you know, I wasn't trying to be rude or anything like that, but it's a fact.
[01:38:30.960 --> 01:38:32.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: I could not pass him because you were there.
[01:38:33.360 --> 01:38:34.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: He didn't really have an answer for that.
[01:38:35.130 --> 01:38:36.630]  [SPEAKER_05]: He didn't really say anything.
[01:38:36.630 --> 01:38:38.440]  [SPEAKER_05]: He didn't deny that he was in my blind spot.
[01:38:38.440 --> 01:38:43.210]  [SPEAKER_05]: But I don't know if he just expected me to careen over and hit him so he could pull me over for having an accident with him.
[01:38:44.920 --> 01:38:46.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: But he wrote me a warning ticket.
[01:38:46.500 --> 01:38:52.780]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now, as soon as I realized it was a warning ticket and not a real ticket, I stopped arguing because a warning ticket doesn't really mean anything.
[01:38:53.180 --> 01:39:06.280]  [SPEAKER_05]: But I just found it kind of strange that he would pull me over and issue me a ticket for something so bizarre as going too slow and apparently following too close, even though I was not following close at all.
[01:39:06.940 --> 01:39:20.630]  [SPEAKER_05]: And so, while this is going on, while he's there, he pulls my license, he reads it out over the radio, and within maybe five seconds they have an answer for him as to exactly what it's registered to and my whole history.
[01:39:20.630 --> 01:39:21.170]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's incredible.
[01:39:21.360 --> 01:39:29.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I get to hear some dispatcher somewhere in Carolina reading off all my personal information over the radio waves.
[01:39:30.100 --> 01:39:34.280]  [SPEAKER_05]: While this is going on, this other police car pulls up right behind us.
[01:39:34.340 --> 01:39:35.400]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm just aware of this.
[01:39:35.550 --> 01:39:37.590]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, he's calling for backup, apparently, or something.
[01:39:37.860 --> 01:39:38.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm such a dangerous person.
[01:39:39.740 --> 01:39:44.550]  [SPEAKER_05]: And as I'm sitting there talking to him, and he's really, really friendly, you know?
[01:39:44.700 --> 01:39:49.340]  [SPEAKER_05]: This is the thing that probably pissed me off more than anything, was how friendly this guy was.
[01:39:49.590 --> 01:39:51.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: Talking about, oh, you're from New York.
[01:39:52.000 --> 01:39:52.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: What's New York like?
[01:39:53.120 --> 01:39:53.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: Do you take the train?
[01:39:54.020 --> 01:39:54.780]  [SPEAKER_05]: You like the train?
[01:39:54.780 --> 01:39:55.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: What do you think of Carolina?
[01:39:56.240 --> 01:39:58.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, all this nice southern hospitality.
[01:39:59.120 --> 01:40:02.940]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, it's the same kind of hospitality you get from those guys that guard the Washington Monument.
[01:40:03.050 --> 01:40:04.710]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, the Marines.
[01:40:04.900 --> 01:40:10.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: They're always very, very polite, but you know that if you make the wrong move, they're going to kill you on the spot, because that's what they're hired to do.
[01:40:11.000 --> 01:40:13.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: So, you know, I'm trying not to be nervous.
[01:40:14.280 --> 01:40:16.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm just, you know, I have nothing to hide, so why should I be nervous?
[01:40:16.630 --> 01:40:17.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: There's absolutely nothing wrong here.
[01:40:17.980 --> 01:40:21.080]  [SPEAKER_05]: I don't have anything on me that could possibly get me in trouble.
[01:40:21.420 --> 01:40:23.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yet I'm starting to feel like I'm a criminal for some reason.
[01:40:24.280 --> 01:40:25.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: Boy, does this sound familiar.
[01:40:26.120 --> 01:40:32.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: So, this other cop comes up and just opens the back door and just sits down behind me.
[01:40:33.000 --> 01:40:38.630]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, he just comes in, without a word, sits down behind me in the same car while I'm talking to this person.
[01:40:39.660 --> 01:40:49.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: And after some more social niceties, the first cop says, Okay, do you have any weapons in your car?
[01:40:50.050 --> 01:40:51.790]  [SPEAKER_05]: Do you have any illegal drugs in your car?
[01:40:52.240 --> 01:40:54.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: Do you have any decapitated bodies in your car?
[01:40:54.630 --> 01:40:56.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: Do you have any blah, blah, blah, whatever else?
[01:40:56.480 --> 01:40:59.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, he could think of that I might not want to have in my car at that moment.
[01:40:59.900 --> 01:41:01.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: Do I have in my car?
[01:41:01.620 --> 01:41:04.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I said, no, I don't have anything like that.
[01:41:04.820 --> 01:41:06.210]  [SPEAKER_05]: And that's when he asked the question.
[01:41:06.400 --> 01:41:08.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: The question I always thought I'd be prepared to answer.
[01:41:09.620 --> 01:41:12.250]  [SPEAKER_05]: And for the most part, I always thought I was prepared to answer this.
[01:41:13.020 --> 01:41:14.550]  [SPEAKER_05]: Do you mind if I search?
[01:41:16.040 --> 01:41:24.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now, you're sitting there in the middle of North Carolina, on an interstate highway, by yourself, with several hundred more miles of road to go in North Carolina.
[01:41:24.740 --> 01:41:28.160]  [SPEAKER_05]: You have a guy with a gun sitting behind you that has not said a word.
[01:41:28.160 --> 01:41:32.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: And you have another guy with a gun sitting next to you that's really, really friendly, almost manically so.
[01:41:33.840 --> 01:41:36.780]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, uh, he asks you, do you mind if I search?
[01:41:38.820 --> 01:41:41.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, I thought about it for the split second I had.
[01:41:41.840 --> 01:41:45.790]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I realized that I could say, I don't want you to search my car.
[01:41:45.900 --> 01:41:46.710]  [SPEAKER_05]: I have my rights.
[01:41:46.880 --> 01:41:48.280]  [SPEAKER_05]: There's no reason for you to search my car.
[01:41:48.400 --> 01:41:49.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm not under arrest.
[01:41:49.900 --> 01:41:50.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: Et cetera, et cetera.
[01:41:50.860 --> 01:41:52.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: All those things we read about all the time.
[01:41:52.660 --> 01:41:53.670]  [SPEAKER_05]: I could say that.
[01:41:54.140 --> 01:42:07.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: And then I could try and figure out a way to get through the rest of the state without being pulled over for doing one mile an hour too high, for hitting a white line when I wasn't supposed to, or for doing God knows what else, and then being labeled as a troublemaker.
[01:42:07.920 --> 01:42:10.780]  [SPEAKER_05]: And we all know how the Deep South treats troublemakers.
[01:42:12.260 --> 01:42:18.020]  [SPEAKER_05]: So I said to, uh, to the guy with deep embarrassment and shame, no, I don't mind.
[01:42:18.020 --> 01:42:19.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: I've got nothing to hide.
[01:42:20.820 --> 01:42:25.440]  [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, Ed Meats would have been so proud of me, but, uh, I figured I had nothing to hide.
[01:42:25.460 --> 01:42:26.740]  [SPEAKER_05]: I really didn't have anything to hide.
[01:42:27.060 --> 01:42:28.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: At this point, I was also kind of curious.
[01:42:28.750 --> 01:42:30.500]  [SPEAKER_05]: What could they find on me?
[01:42:30.780 --> 01:42:32.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: There was nothing I had.
[01:42:32.090 --> 01:42:33.780]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, I had a couple of copies of 2,600.
[01:42:34.130 --> 01:42:35.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: I had my...
[01:42:35.380 --> 01:42:42.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: I guess maybe the most, um, uh, objectionable thing I had was the police scanner, but it was, uh, kind of in pieces.
[01:42:43.090 --> 01:42:44.620]  [SPEAKER_05]: So I don't think they could have even figured out what it was.
[01:42:44.620 --> 01:42:51.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: And it's not illegal to have a police scanner in the first place, but they probably would have asked all kind of questions about it if, uh, if they were able to figure out what it was.
[01:42:52.680 --> 01:42:57.750]  [SPEAKER_05]: And then for the next 45 minutes or so, I had to sit on a handrail.
[01:42:58.400 --> 01:43:00.630]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, uh, guardrail, not a handrail.
[01:43:00.710 --> 01:43:02.000]  [SPEAKER_05]: Guardrail by the side of the highway.
[01:43:02.800 --> 01:43:14.790]  [SPEAKER_05]: While the second cop stood next to me, his hand on his gun, watching me as if I was going to do something, and I got to see the other guy going through the entire car, bit by bit.
[01:43:14.920 --> 01:43:22.040]  [SPEAKER_05]: Every bag I had, every, every item of paper he would look at, went through the glove compartment, went through the trunk, even went through the engine.
[01:43:22.040 --> 01:43:23.580]  [SPEAKER_05]: The guy was meticulous.
[01:43:23.740 --> 01:43:25.540]  [SPEAKER_05]: He went through every single inch of that car.
[01:43:26.480 --> 01:43:28.200]  [SPEAKER_05]: God knows what he was looking for.
[01:43:28.580 --> 01:43:30.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: He tore the thing apart.
[01:43:30.960 --> 01:43:36.790]  [SPEAKER_05]: And then finally, after about 45 minutes or so, when it was all over, he, uh, he walked towards me.
[01:43:37.020 --> 01:43:39.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: And without smiling, he said, okay, thank you.
[01:43:40.780 --> 01:43:44.160]  [SPEAKER_05]: He was almost as pissed off as I was because he wasn't able to find anything.
[01:43:45.780 --> 01:43:55.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: And it took quite a while for me to, uh, to, to recover from that, to realize that, uh, that, you know, I was going to survive this particular, uh, brush with the law.
[01:43:55.520 --> 01:43:57.130]  [SPEAKER_05]: But, you know, I, I, I waited.
[01:43:57.500 --> 01:44:02.710]  [SPEAKER_05]: I sort of hung out in these small towns waiting for darkness to fall because I didn't want anybody to see me.
[01:44:02.780 --> 01:44:05.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: I wanted to be able to travel under the cloak of darkness so this wouldn't happen anymore.
[01:44:06.120 --> 01:44:14.050]  [SPEAKER_05]: Here I was, a perfectly innocent person, yet because of the way that they, uh, they, they were, they were treating me, they would make me feel like a criminal.
[01:44:14.680 --> 01:44:16.380]  [SPEAKER_05]: And it was a really frightening thing.
[01:44:16.620 --> 01:44:20.400]  [SPEAKER_05]: Here I was in a, in practically a foreign country, in Jesse Helms land.
[01:44:20.880 --> 01:44:27.120]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I was being pursued by some, some law enforcement entity for some unknown reason.
[01:44:27.700 --> 01:44:34.250]  [SPEAKER_05]: And then, when I got back in the car, I realized that these people had, had completely made a mess of the entire place.
[01:44:34.360 --> 01:44:35.960]  [SPEAKER_05]: My, my, my clothes were all over the place.
[01:44:36.090 --> 01:44:37.580]  [SPEAKER_05]: My, my bags were unzippered.
[01:44:37.980 --> 01:44:43.980]  [SPEAKER_05]: I, I found the, the battery for my scanner underneath a chair, underneath one of the seats in the car.
[01:44:44.130 --> 01:44:44.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: It was incredible.
[01:44:44.860 --> 01:44:48.050]  [SPEAKER_05]: They hadn't even, uh, put it back the way they found it.
[01:44:48.250 --> 01:44:53.440]  [SPEAKER_05]: So this is clearly, um, some kind of, uh, of abuse of some sort.
[01:44:53.630 --> 01:44:57.880]  [SPEAKER_05]: What really got me the most upset though was how nice they were being throughout it, you know.
[01:44:58.120 --> 01:45:05.790]  [SPEAKER_05]: And every time, every time they were, they were nice, every time they said something, you know, pleasant and conversational, they would take another step.
[01:45:05.790 --> 01:45:08.420]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, they'd say, okay, well then, do you mind if we do this?
[01:45:08.620 --> 01:45:11.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: Can we, can we, uh, encroach on your rights a little bit more?
[01:45:12.660 --> 01:45:21.130]  [SPEAKER_05]: And being alone, being kind of afraid, being in a, a foreign country as it were, and a hostile one at that, you kind of let them do it.
[01:45:21.440 --> 01:45:23.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's embarrassing, but you kind of let them do it.
[01:45:23.520 --> 01:45:25.920]  [SPEAKER_05]: They asked who I was staying with when I was down there.
[01:45:26.680 --> 01:45:29.550]  [SPEAKER_05]: I couldn't think of a lie fast enough, so I gave a real name.
[01:45:29.660 --> 01:45:34.170]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, it's, it makes you feel like you're really unprepared to deal with this kind of thing.
[01:45:34.740 --> 01:45:39.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: And if, if this can happen to me down there, it can happen to a lot of people in, in all kinds of places.
[01:45:39.840 --> 01:45:42.860]  [SPEAKER_05]: When you deal with law enforcement people, you have to be very, very careful.
[01:45:43.170 --> 01:45:54.460]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, we all watch NYPD Blue, we see how they, they get the criminals each time, and, and, and we don't object when they step over the line and, and abuse people's rights a little bit, because, hey, they're the criminals, they deserve to have their rights abused.
[01:45:55.200 --> 01:46:07.750]  [SPEAKER_05]: But, when you're not a criminal, when you see this happen to innocent people based totally upon their, their, their skin color, their age, the way their, their physical complexion, or perhaps just, just where they're from.
[01:46:08.420 --> 01:46:13.700]  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, as soon as they found out I was from New York, that definitely added a few, a few minutes to the, to the whole process.
[01:46:14.540 --> 01:46:19.780]  [SPEAKER_05]: When you do it for those reasons, it's clearly wrong, and it should not be tolerated.
[01:46:20.080 --> 01:46:23.160]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now, had I been in New York, first of all, I don't think this ever would have happened in New York.
[01:46:23.160 --> 01:46:26.880]  [SPEAKER_05]: I've been driving for nearly 20 years, every single day in New York, and I've never had my car searched.
[01:46:27.020 --> 01:46:30.280]  [SPEAKER_05]: Here it is, the second day of driving in North Carolina, and my car is torn apart.
[01:46:31.480 --> 01:46:32.500]  [SPEAKER_05]: Something's wrong with that.
[01:46:33.180 --> 01:46:40.840]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, one thing that kept me going throughout, is knowing I'd have the opportunity to tell people, about the experience.
[01:46:44.470 --> 01:46:49.390]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, well, I guess, yeah, it's the North Carolina State Police.
[01:46:49.650 --> 01:46:51.790]  [SPEAKER_05]: I think maybe I've, I've offended somebody.
[01:46:51.790 --> 01:47:00.210]  [SPEAKER_05]: But, the thing is, what's important, is that, we all, share these experiences, when they happen to us.
[01:47:00.890 --> 01:47:03.950]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, we don't let them happen unremarked.
[01:47:04.170 --> 01:47:12.950]  [SPEAKER_05]: A lot of people get raided by the Secret Service, a lot of people have, run-ins with the FBI, with local police, state police, all kinds of things like that.
[01:47:13.490 --> 01:47:20.150]  [SPEAKER_05]: Without a voice, without a way of, of telling this to people, you're a lot weaker.
[01:47:20.850 --> 01:47:21.870]  [SPEAKER_05]: You're a lot weaker.
[01:47:22.110 --> 01:47:26.850]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, you feel like, you're being oppressed, and you are being oppressed, and nobody cares.
[01:47:27.030 --> 01:47:29.410]  [SPEAKER_05]: Nobody's listening, because, nobody can hear you.
[01:47:30.490 --> 01:47:33.470]  [SPEAKER_05]: And what we, what we have here at WBAI, is a voice.
[01:47:34.210 --> 01:47:41.870]  [SPEAKER_05]: And it's a voice, not only for the people, who do radio shows here, it's a voice for people, on, the phone, people, who have radios.
[01:47:42.470 --> 01:47:45.830]  [SPEAKER_05]: Anybody can get a hold of us, and tell them things, that have happened.
[01:47:46.270 --> 01:47:47.450]  [SPEAKER_05]: Tell us things that have happened.
[01:47:47.790 --> 01:47:50.090]  [SPEAKER_05]: Tell all of New York, all of New Jersey, all of Connecticut.
[01:47:51.450 --> 01:47:54.830]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, that's so important, to be able to have that power.
[01:47:55.350 --> 01:48:01.710]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, it's, like I said, that's one of the things, that kept me going, knowing that I'd be able to, to tell people about this.
[01:48:01.750 --> 01:48:04.790]  [SPEAKER_05]: I felt like everybody was there with me, in that regard.
[01:48:05.310 --> 01:48:13.370]  [SPEAKER_05]: And that, you know, whatever happened to me, would be remembered, and that I would, would have a way of, letting people know about it.
[01:48:14.650 --> 01:48:17.350]  [SPEAKER_05]: I don't know, this is, it's a, it's a pretty crazy thing.
[01:48:17.430 --> 01:48:21.310]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, you kind of think that things like that, are always happening, but you don't expect it to happen to you.
[01:48:21.870 --> 01:48:23.170]  [SPEAKER_05]: I still don't know why.
[01:48:23.570 --> 01:48:33.230]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, it had to have been just, the person took a look at me, and decided I didn't quite look right, for that particular region, and felt that they must be able to find something on me.
[01:48:33.330 --> 01:48:37.930]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's also a reason why you have to really, really be careful.
[01:48:38.070 --> 01:48:49.930]  [SPEAKER_05]: Imagine if I had one thing on me, one ounce of pot, you know, one, I don't know what they consider to be illegal down there, but there are a lot of things, an open container of some sort.
[01:48:50.770 --> 01:48:54.450]  [SPEAKER_05]: Any one of those things, I probably wouldn't be here right now, I'd probably be in jail someplace.
[01:48:54.930 --> 01:48:55.690]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's that easy.
[01:48:55.970 --> 01:48:59.530]  [SPEAKER_05]: And just because we're in New York, doesn't mean it's not that easy here as well.
[01:49:00.170 --> 01:49:02.750]  [SPEAKER_05]: You have to be very, very careful with what you do.
[01:49:04.250 --> 01:49:12.810]  [SPEAKER_05]: And it's important that we tell people, when things like this happen, when they grab people for the wrong reasons.
[01:49:12.890 --> 01:49:13.510]  [SPEAKER_05]: And this is nothing.
[01:49:13.670 --> 01:49:14.630]  [SPEAKER_05]: This really is nothing.
[01:49:14.810 --> 01:49:22.610]  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, there are countless instances, right here in our own backyard, that far surpass anything that I had to go through.
[01:49:22.630 --> 01:49:23.970]  [SPEAKER_05]: I was really quite fortunate.
[01:49:26.450 --> 01:49:28.190]  [SPEAKER_05]: But we need to be able to tell people.
[01:49:28.290 --> 01:49:29.950]  [SPEAKER_05]: We need to be able to spread the word.
[01:49:31.690 --> 01:49:33.390]  [SPEAKER_05]: So, help us spread the word here.
[01:49:33.630 --> 01:49:34.890]  [SPEAKER_05]: Help support this radio station.
[01:49:35.110 --> 01:49:37.610]  [SPEAKER_05]: 212-279-3400 is our telephone number.
[01:49:39.230 --> 01:49:40.450]  [SPEAKER_05]: Let's take a couple of phone calls.
[01:49:40.550 --> 01:49:42.570]  [SPEAKER_05]: 212-279-3407.
[01:49:44.270 --> 01:49:46.290]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, those lines are lighting up really quickly.
[01:49:46.290 --> 01:49:46.710]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's amazing.
[01:49:46.850 --> 01:49:49.530]  [SPEAKER_05]: People just have their fingers on the buttons, as far as that one goes.
[01:49:50.410 --> 01:49:51.890]  [SPEAKER_05]: We need to light up the other ones.
[01:49:51.890 --> 01:49:58.070]  [SPEAKER_05]: We're up to $1,300, which is a lucky number, but not lucky enough yet.
[01:49:58.470 --> 01:50:00.910]  [SPEAKER_05]: Let's try and hit $1,500 before the night's over.
[01:50:01.050 --> 01:50:02.170]  [SPEAKER_05]: We have 11 minutes left.
[01:50:02.510 --> 01:50:04.090]  [SPEAKER_05]: I think we can do it with your help.
[01:50:05.050 --> 01:50:08.550]  [SPEAKER_05]: 212-279-3400 for $100.
[01:50:09.590 --> 01:50:17.730]  [SPEAKER_05]: You'll get a copy of the videotape, which we played excerpts of before, of Robert Steele from the Central Intelligence Agency, addressing about 500 computer hackers.
[01:50:18.990 --> 01:50:30.430]  [SPEAKER_05]: And you'll also get a full year of 2600 Magazine, The Hacker Quarterly, where you can hear all kinds of strange incidents that happen to hackers, as well as things that hackers do.
[01:50:30.930 --> 01:50:38.750]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, it was a couple of weeks ago, somebody told me this, that they went into a Barnes & Noble in some part of the country, and they asked for 2600 Magazine.
[01:50:39.750 --> 01:50:44.510]  [SPEAKER_05]: They were so afraid of hackers in that particular part of the country that they asked them to leave the store based upon that.
[01:50:45.610 --> 01:50:51.670]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's the kind of craziness we have in this country, and we need to keep being vocal about it.
[01:50:51.850 --> 01:50:57.910]  [SPEAKER_05]: Every time someone threatens us in the magazine, and we get threatened quite a bit, we let people know about it.
[01:50:58.170 --> 01:51:00.190]  [SPEAKER_05]: And we get a lot more support because of that.
[01:51:00.410 --> 01:51:02.890]  [SPEAKER_05]: Because people are aware of what's going on out there.
[01:51:03.390 --> 01:51:07.670]  [SPEAKER_05]: And when someone tells us that they've been abused, we let people know about that as well.
[01:51:07.670 --> 01:51:08.930]  [SPEAKER_05]: And it does help.
[01:51:09.270 --> 01:51:15.150]  [SPEAKER_05]: People were aware of the fiber optic story because we told them here on this radio station.
[01:51:15.190 --> 01:51:21.790]  [SPEAKER_05]: I don't know if a lot of you have seen all the media publicity that surrounded his return over the past couple of weeks.
[01:51:21.790 --> 01:51:24.230]  [SPEAKER_05]: We had a party for him last Thursday.
[01:51:25.610 --> 01:51:28.470]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, gosh, there were things in the New York Times, Time, Newsweek.
[01:51:28.650 --> 01:51:32.710]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, how many people would have known about this, you know, if we hadn't started the process?
[01:51:33.210 --> 01:51:37.530]  [SPEAKER_05]: And that's where people like you and you and you out there.
[01:51:37.650 --> 01:51:38.230]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yes, that's right.
[01:51:38.270 --> 01:51:39.090]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm pointing as I say this.
[01:51:39.830 --> 01:51:41.430]  [SPEAKER_05]: You all are part of this.
[01:51:41.850 --> 01:51:45.150]  [SPEAKER_05]: And you help make us strong by supporting us in our time of need.
[01:51:45.250 --> 01:51:46.870]  [SPEAKER_05]: And this, my friends, is our time of need.
[01:51:47.810 --> 01:51:49.070]  [SPEAKER_05]: 212-279-3400.
[01:51:49.150 --> 01:51:50.270]  [SPEAKER_05]: Hey, we're up to 1350.
[01:51:50.450 --> 01:51:50.730]  [SPEAKER_05]: You see?
[01:51:50.870 --> 01:51:51.850]  [SPEAKER_05]: You see how easy it is?
[01:51:52.390 --> 01:51:54.110]  [SPEAKER_05]: We're a fourth of the way to 1500.
[01:51:54.810 --> 01:51:56.850]  [SPEAKER_05]: It takes a couple more phone calls and we can do it.
[01:51:56.990 --> 01:51:58.910]  [SPEAKER_05]: 212-279-3400.
[01:51:59.570 --> 01:52:01.230]  [SPEAKER_05]: Show your support for this radio station.
[01:52:01.230 --> 01:52:02.750]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, we don't have commercials.
[01:52:03.770 --> 01:52:05.210]  [SPEAKER_05]: We don't take advertising.
[01:52:05.510 --> 01:52:07.230]  [SPEAKER_05]: We don't even take underwriting.
[01:52:08.210 --> 01:52:17.330]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, underwriting is that thing that PBS invented where it's not really a commercial, but you kind of give the name and address of the people that are sending you money.
[01:52:17.510 --> 01:52:20.650]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, like, this program is underwritten by AT&T.
[01:52:20.830 --> 01:52:22.750]  [SPEAKER_05]: This program is not underwritten by AT&T, by the way.
[01:52:22.890 --> 01:52:25.230]  [SPEAKER_05]: But that's what we would say if it was.
[01:52:26.550 --> 01:52:27.710]  [SPEAKER_05]: Maybe we should charge them for that.
[01:52:29.330 --> 01:52:33.130]  [SPEAKER_05]: But things like, you know, the McNeil-Lair Report or Masterpiece Theater, you know.
[01:52:33.770 --> 01:52:35.330]  [SPEAKER_05]: Who underwrites the McNeil-Lair Report?
[01:52:35.390 --> 01:52:36.330]  [SPEAKER_05]: We all know it's AT&T.
[01:52:36.390 --> 01:52:37.550]  [SPEAKER_05]: Who underwrites Masterpiece Theater?
[01:52:37.630 --> 01:52:39.030]  [SPEAKER_05]: We all know it's Mobile Oil, right?
[01:52:39.790 --> 01:52:40.470]  [SPEAKER_05]: Or is it Getty?
[01:52:40.530 --> 01:52:40.950]  [SPEAKER_05]: No, it's Mobile.
[01:52:41.610 --> 01:52:47.110]  [SPEAKER_05]: But the reason we know that is because the product registers with us.
[01:52:47.310 --> 01:52:49.350]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, we recognize the product name.
[01:52:49.350 --> 01:52:50.890]  [SPEAKER_05]: We associate it with the program.
[01:52:50.890 --> 01:52:55.510]  [SPEAKER_05]: So we associate, you know, a certain oil company with a certain PBS program.
[01:52:55.870 --> 01:52:57.330]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's not what it's all about.
[01:52:57.330 --> 01:52:58.890]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's not what it's supposed to be all about.
[01:52:59.230 --> 01:53:00.470]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's not about products.
[01:53:00.470 --> 01:53:01.390]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's about culture.
[01:53:01.610 --> 01:53:03.490]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's about spreading information.
[01:53:03.670 --> 01:53:05.570]  [SPEAKER_05]: McNeil-Lair Report is not about AT&T.
[01:53:05.750 --> 01:53:11.690]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's about, you know, hopefully providing some kind of some kind of news report that's fairly reliable.
[01:53:11.810 --> 01:53:16.830]  [SPEAKER_05]: Unfortunately, by providing underwriting in that regard, you sort of lose something.
[01:53:18.030 --> 01:53:19.430]  [SPEAKER_05]: Here, we don't have that.
[01:53:20.590 --> 01:53:23.690]  [SPEAKER_05]: AT&T just offered one million dollars to keep off the hook off the air.
[01:53:23.690 --> 01:53:27.910]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, can we call that a matching fund?
[01:53:27.910 --> 01:53:28.550]  [SPEAKER_05]: How about that?
[01:53:29.830 --> 01:53:33.330]  [SPEAKER_05]: Everyone sends in a million dollars and we cancel them out and we just sort of stay where we are.
[01:53:34.070 --> 01:53:35.390]  [SPEAKER_05]: 212-279-3400.
[01:53:35.550 --> 01:53:40.290]  [SPEAKER_05]: So if you're listening for the first time, if you've never heard this radio station before, that's what we're all about.
[01:53:40.990 --> 01:53:50.110]  [SPEAKER_05]: We're all about telling people what's going on in the real world and not being influenced by huge mega corporations that want to tell us what to say and what not to say.
[01:53:50.250 --> 01:53:57.390]  [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, they'll never say that's what they want to do but of course when you give somebody a lot of money you kind of want to have a say in what it's all about.
[01:53:57.690 --> 01:54:01.330]  [SPEAKER_05]: Now, our listeners have a say and we respect what our listeners tell us.
[01:54:01.850 --> 01:54:17.490]  [SPEAKER_05]: And there are so many people out there that we have sort of a multi-cultural, multi-lingual sponsor out there that is constantly giving us feedback and constantly being broadcast themselves over the radio.
[01:54:17.970 --> 01:54:19.710]  [SPEAKER_05]: Let's broadcast a few of them right now.
[01:54:19.710 --> 01:54:23.570]  [SPEAKER_05]: So, again, while we're doing this please call us 212-279-3400.
[01:54:24.130 --> 01:54:25.110]  [SPEAKER_05]: Good evening, listener.
[01:54:25.310 --> 01:54:26.130]  [SPEAKER_05]: Welcome to the airwaves.
[01:54:26.350 --> 01:54:26.690]  [SPEAKER_21]: Hi.
[01:54:26.970 --> 01:54:27.430]  [SPEAKER_05]: How are you doing?
[01:54:27.630 --> 01:54:27.910]  [SPEAKER_21]: Good.
[01:54:28.410 --> 01:54:29.170]  [SPEAKER_05]: What's on your mind?
[01:54:29.470 --> 01:54:34.250]  [SPEAKER_21]: Well, I was calling about your episode of being pulled over in North Carolina.
[01:54:34.590 --> 01:54:36.350]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yes, my latest episode of being pulled over.
[01:54:36.550 --> 01:54:37.570]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yes, I have...
[01:54:37.570 --> 01:54:40.870]  [SPEAKER_21]: My older brother was actually pulled over there once and he is an epileptic.
[01:54:41.130 --> 01:54:41.630]  [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, boy.
[01:54:41.890 --> 01:54:42.910]  [SPEAKER_21]: He's an epileptic.
[01:54:43.110 --> 01:54:59.570]  [SPEAKER_21]: He had gone down for the weekend just to visit and had taken some of his medication with him out of the prescription bottle and put it into a small bag and, of course, he was pulled over and searched the same way you were and when they found the medication they threw him in jail for the weekend.
[01:55:00.590 --> 01:55:01.250]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's just...
[01:55:01.250 --> 01:55:02.470]  [SPEAKER_05]: Without the medication, no doubt.
[01:55:02.670 --> 01:55:04.010]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yes, and they took his medication.
[01:55:04.210 --> 01:55:08.050]  [SPEAKER_21]: It took my mother calling a doctor and getting a judge who actually could...
[01:55:08.050 --> 01:55:10.610]  [SPEAKER_21]: And I don't think that the judge didn't get in until Monday morning.
[01:55:11.110 --> 01:55:15.030]  [SPEAKER_21]: So he spent, like, two nights in jail without his medication for the...
[01:55:18.030 --> 01:55:20.350]  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, my eyes a little bit more than they were already open.
[01:55:20.410 --> 01:55:21.210]  [SPEAKER_05]: You should see my eyes.
[01:55:21.310 --> 01:55:22.230]  [SPEAKER_05]: They're completely bugged out.
[01:55:22.510 --> 01:55:23.350]  [SPEAKER_21]: It's just amazing.
[01:55:23.350 --> 01:55:24.550]  [SPEAKER_21]: I mean, what can go on?
[01:55:24.690 --> 01:55:25.550]  [SPEAKER_21]: You know, I mean, that's...
[01:55:25.910 --> 01:55:32.550]  [SPEAKER_21]: It was kind of absurd that they pulled him over, but then when they found his, you know, his medicine, didn't listen to him, I mean, he just got caught in that situation.
[01:55:32.930 --> 01:55:34.570]  [SPEAKER_05]: Do you know why they pulled him over in the first place?
[01:55:35.290 --> 01:55:36.090]  [SPEAKER_21]: I don't know.
[01:55:36.410 --> 01:55:36.990]  [SPEAKER_21]: I don't know.
[01:55:37.030 --> 01:55:37.870]  [SPEAKER_21]: They didn't give him a ticket.
[01:55:38.410 --> 01:55:39.490]  [SPEAKER_05]: Was it New York Plates, maybe?
[01:55:40.210 --> 01:55:40.830]  [SPEAKER_21]: No, no, no.
[01:55:40.910 --> 01:55:42.450]  [SPEAKER_21]: No, he was from Virginia, so...
[01:55:42.450 --> 01:55:43.030]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's funny.
[01:55:43.090 --> 01:55:45.050]  [SPEAKER_05]: I had Virginia Plates, too, because that's where I rented the car.
[01:55:45.410 --> 01:55:48.370]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah, well, he was out of state, so I guess maybe they just didn't like that.
[01:55:48.370 --> 01:55:49.390]  [SPEAKER_21]: I really don't know.
[01:55:49.610 --> 01:55:51.570]  [SPEAKER_05]: One state away, and they still...
[01:55:51.570 --> 01:55:55.050]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, when they found out I was from New York, though, I think that's when they really went hog wild.
[01:55:55.310 --> 01:55:56.070]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah, it might have been.
[01:55:56.650 --> 01:56:04.390]  [SPEAKER_21]: I do know that they had taken some beer with them, and they had just taken it from the refrigerator, so they didn't have like a full six-pack.
[01:56:04.910 --> 01:56:06.830]  [SPEAKER_21]: So I think they thought that was suspicious.
[01:56:07.430 --> 01:56:08.210]  [SPEAKER_21]: You know, that...
[01:56:08.210 --> 01:56:19.490]  [SPEAKER_21]: I mean, there wasn't open bottles or anything, and they hadn't been drinking, and they were never accused of anything, but it was not like a full six-pack, and he wanted to know where the other bottles were or something, and he was like, well, you know,
[01:56:19.510 --> 01:56:20.090]  [SPEAKER_21]: they were at home.
[01:56:20.410 --> 01:56:20.690]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh-huh.
[01:56:20.910 --> 01:56:23.030]  [SPEAKER_05]: How did he make it through all this?
[01:56:23.290 --> 01:56:24.470]  [SPEAKER_21]: Well, that was...
[01:56:24.470 --> 01:56:38.450]  [SPEAKER_21]: I mean, my brother's just a construction worker from Virginia, so he didn't have any polar sources or certainly anybody to talk to, and he wound up having to go back down there even to, like, answer to charges and stuff, which were immediately thrown out.
[01:56:38.530 --> 01:56:43.090]  [SPEAKER_21]: I mean, it was absurd, but it was a real ordeal for him, and...
[01:56:43.090 --> 01:56:44.070]  [SPEAKER_05]: How long ago did this happen?
[01:56:44.670 --> 01:56:46.470]  [SPEAKER_21]: Uh, I'd say it was about five years ago.
[01:56:47.050 --> 01:56:47.290]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh-huh.
[01:56:47.410 --> 01:56:48.390]  [SPEAKER_21]: Five or six years ago.
[01:56:49.350 --> 01:56:51.190]  [SPEAKER_21]: So, I mean, it's...
[01:56:51.190 --> 01:56:55.410]  [SPEAKER_21]: But to think that people have that kind of control over you is really pretty scary.
[01:56:56.030 --> 01:56:59.050]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's weird, but that's what we've kind of grown accustomed to.
[01:56:59.150 --> 01:57:03.830]  [SPEAKER_05]: These armed individuals can just pull us over any time and make our lives hell.
[01:57:04.110 --> 01:57:07.590]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, it's up to us to make sure that they don't go over the line.
[01:57:07.650 --> 01:57:17.730]  [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, we're all pretty content with allowing cops to go through traffic lights and abuse laws in all different ways, but when they start abusing people, that's when you have to really stand up and say something.
[01:57:17.910 --> 01:57:18.270]  [SPEAKER_05]: Oh.
[01:57:18.330 --> 01:57:22.550]  [SPEAKER_05]: It happens all the time, but it always seems to happen to people that don't have a voice.
[01:57:22.770 --> 01:57:22.970]  [SPEAKER_21]: Right.
[01:57:23.110 --> 01:57:26.070]  [SPEAKER_21]: I mean, why couldn't they have listened to the doctor sooner?
[01:57:26.270 --> 01:57:27.270]  [SPEAKER_21]: Why couldn't have policed them?
[01:57:27.330 --> 01:57:29.870]  [SPEAKER_21]: I mean, it just seems a little bit strange.
[01:57:29.990 --> 01:57:32.150]  [SPEAKER_21]: Of course, my mother was calling saying, wait, that's my son.
[01:57:32.210 --> 01:57:32.650]  [SPEAKER_21]: You've got there.
[01:57:32.730 --> 01:57:34.130]  [SPEAKER_21]: At least give him his medication back.
[01:57:34.130 --> 01:57:34.870]  [SPEAKER_21]: He needs it.
[01:57:35.150 --> 01:57:35.530]  [SPEAKER_21]: Absolutely.
[01:57:35.530 --> 01:57:37.470]  [SPEAKER_21]: And I know he didn't get it until Monday morning.
[01:57:37.470 --> 01:57:39.130]  [SPEAKER_21]: It was really...
[01:57:40.170 --> 01:57:43.590]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, I'm sorry to hear this, but I'm not surprised at all.
[01:57:43.870 --> 01:57:44.590]  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm not surprised.
[01:57:45.610 --> 01:57:47.350]  [SPEAKER_05]: I thought I'd add to your story.
[01:57:47.510 --> 01:57:47.730]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[01:57:47.830 --> 01:57:51.210]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, thanks very much for contributing that and I'm glad you were able to tell the story.
[01:57:51.490 --> 01:57:51.630]  Yep.
[01:57:52.050 --> 01:57:52.330]  [SPEAKER_05]: All right.
[01:57:52.410 --> 01:57:52.690]  [SPEAKER_05]: Take care.
[01:57:52.930 --> 01:57:53.150]  [SPEAKER_17]: Thanks.
[01:57:53.310 --> 01:57:53.510]  Good night.
[01:57:53.830 --> 01:58:00.330]  [SPEAKER_05]: I have a feeling there's a lot of stories like that out there just based in North Carolina alone, but there's probably a lot based here as well.
[01:58:01.170 --> 01:58:02.750]  [SPEAKER_05]: Let's fit in a couple more phone calls.
[01:58:02.850 --> 01:58:06.530]  [SPEAKER_05]: We have one caller on the pledge line, 212-279-3400.
[01:58:06.710 --> 01:58:08.050]  [SPEAKER_05]: Please, let's make that a few more.
[01:58:08.130 --> 01:58:09.810]  [SPEAKER_05]: We only have about three minutes left.
[01:58:10.230 --> 01:58:10.790]  [SPEAKER_05]: Good evening.
[01:58:10.910 --> 01:58:11.350]  [SPEAKER_05]: You're on the radio.
[01:58:11.710 --> 01:58:11.870]  [SPEAKER_08]: Hi.
[01:58:11.990 --> 01:58:12.330]  [SPEAKER_08]: How are you?
[01:58:12.470 --> 01:58:12.690]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[01:58:12.870 --> 01:58:13.210]  [SPEAKER_05]: How are you doing?
[01:58:13.570 --> 01:58:13.810]  [SPEAKER_08]: Great.
[01:58:14.070 --> 01:58:16.770]  [SPEAKER_08]: My name's John Painter from Greenwich, Connecticut.
[01:58:17.230 --> 01:58:18.490]  [SPEAKER_08]: I have a couple of questions.
[01:58:18.710 --> 01:58:25.530]  [SPEAKER_08]: Just first, I wanted to know if for those without credit cards, is there an address to which we can send checks for WAI?
[01:58:26.010 --> 01:58:32.390]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, actually, the reason we ask people to pledge first is that we have an idea of what we're going to be getting.
[01:58:32.610 --> 01:58:38.490]  [SPEAKER_05]: Our address is WBAI 505 8th Avenue, New York, New York, 10018.
[01:58:39.110 --> 01:58:39.510]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[01:58:39.750 --> 01:58:40.930]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's our main address.
[01:58:40.930 --> 01:58:45.610]  [SPEAKER_05]: But we do ask that you call up the main number, 212-279-3400.
[01:58:45.610 --> 01:58:47.290]  [SPEAKER_05]: Tell us how much you want to pledge.
[01:58:47.450 --> 01:58:56.730]  [SPEAKER_05]: What we do then is we send out a little reminder form that tells you exactly what it is you're going to be getting and provides you even with an envelope so you can send it right back to us.
[01:58:57.170 --> 01:58:57.470]  [SPEAKER_08]: All right.
[01:58:58.050 --> 01:58:58.510]  [SPEAKER_08]: Thank you.
[01:58:58.610 --> 01:59:00.350]  [SPEAKER_08]: And I have just one more question for Emmanuel.
[01:59:00.610 --> 01:59:00.890]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
[01:59:01.790 --> 01:59:02.490]  [SPEAKER_05]: Go ahead.
[01:59:02.650 --> 01:59:15.670]  [SPEAKER_08]: Concerning privacy and freedom of expression on the Internet, relating that to how amateur radio was regulated by the FCC and the strict laws that prevent coding and deliberate encryption there.
[01:59:15.670 --> 01:59:32.750]  [SPEAKER_08]: I was wondering if in the future of communications on the Internet and the backbones that I guess in some parts are owned or were started, created by the government if there's ever any regulation in the future or if the possibility for that exists.
[01:59:33.430 --> 01:59:37.550]  [SPEAKER_05]: The possibility for regulating encryption you mean?
[01:59:37.690 --> 01:59:47.430]  [SPEAKER_08]: No, the possibility for regulating the Internet and use of the network the actual backbone as the radio waves are regulated in the amateur bands by the FCC.
[01:59:47.810 --> 01:59:53.250]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, I don't see that realistically, but I do see that in the heads of some people.
[01:59:53.250 --> 01:59:57.530]  [SPEAKER_05]: I think it would be a catastrophic thing to do that, to actually regulate...
[01:59:57.530 --> 02:00:02.270]  [SPEAKER_05]: Basically, you'd be regulating words and communication, you know, data communication.
[02:00:03.490 --> 02:00:08.330]  [SPEAKER_05]: It'll be like regulating what you can say through the mail, you know, and how much mail you can send, you know, U.S.
[02:00:08.410 --> 02:00:08.830]  [SPEAKER_05]: mail, that is.
[02:00:09.530 --> 02:00:14.570]  [SPEAKER_05]: It certainly could be done theoretically on paper.
[02:00:14.730 --> 02:00:19.470]  [SPEAKER_05]: It could be done, but it would be a very big mistake, one I think which we'd never recover from.
[02:00:19.630 --> 02:00:26.170]  [SPEAKER_05]: And I think we've gone so far already on this information superhighway that we can't just turn around and do it that way.
[02:00:26.610 --> 02:00:33.090]  [SPEAKER_05]: But again, it really depends on how awake we all are, you know, how alert we are to the threats.
[02:00:33.750 --> 02:00:34.150]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay?
[02:00:34.470 --> 02:00:34.830]  [SPEAKER_05]: All right.
[02:00:34.930 --> 02:00:35.190]  [SPEAKER_05]: Thank you.
[02:00:35.190 --> 02:00:35.870]  [SPEAKER_05]: Thanks for calling.
[02:00:36.030 --> 02:00:36.530]  [SPEAKER_05]: Bye-bye.
[02:00:36.790 --> 02:00:36.950]  [SPEAKER_05]: Bye.
[02:00:37.590 --> 02:00:45.350]  [SPEAKER_05]: And if the information superhighway reflects the real highway in any sense, there'll be Carolina State Troopers on that as well.
[02:00:45.430 --> 02:00:47.010]  [SPEAKER_05]: So, be careful.
[02:00:47.270 --> 02:00:53.830]  [SPEAKER_05]: You know, it's difficult out there enough as it is without all kinds of fascism rearing its ugly head.
[02:00:53.830 --> 02:00:56.290]  [SPEAKER_05]: And yes, it will happen in various ways.
[02:00:56.570 --> 02:01:00.150]  [SPEAKER_05]: We've just got to be aware and alert and tell other people when it happens.
[02:01:00.770 --> 02:01:03.550]  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, we have a flurry of phone calls on the pledge line.
[02:01:03.670 --> 02:01:05.350]  [SPEAKER_05]: 212-279-3400.
[02:01:05.510 --> 02:01:06.330]  [SPEAKER_05]: We're out of here, though.
[02:01:07.090 --> 02:01:09.950]  [SPEAKER_05]: And it looks like we broke $1,500, which is great.
[02:01:10.210 --> 02:01:10.830]  [SPEAKER_05]: All right.
[02:01:11.570 --> 02:01:12.230]  [SPEAKER_05]: Thank you.
[02:01:13.810 --> 02:01:20.130]  [SPEAKER_05]: Thank you, people down in Talley for staying there and being patient and dealing with all the phone calls that have been coming in.
[02:01:20.210 --> 02:01:22.830]  [SPEAKER_05]: You can still call us after we sign off.
[02:01:22.890 --> 02:01:25.450]  [SPEAKER_05]: 212-279-3400 and pledge your support.
[02:01:25.650 --> 02:01:31.670]  [SPEAKER_05]: Again, the deal that we're offering is for a $100 pledge, which you can bill it to your Visa or MasterCard.
[02:01:31.970 --> 02:01:34.170]  [SPEAKER_05]: And please, bill it to your Visa or MasterCard.
[02:01:35.710 --> 02:01:39.010]  [SPEAKER_05]: I just feel that's, you know, in order to advise people to do that.
[02:01:39.130 --> 02:01:40.770]  [SPEAKER_05]: Because it's so easy to bill it to somebody else.
[02:01:40.870 --> 02:01:41.490]  [SPEAKER_05]: It really is.
[02:01:44.330 --> 02:01:45.890]  [SPEAKER_05]: You can send us a check.
[02:01:46.190 --> 02:01:48.610]  [SPEAKER_05]: You can bill it to your Visa or MasterCard.
[02:01:48.710 --> 02:01:52.110]  [SPEAKER_05]: Before that, you will get a full year of 2600 Magazine, the Hacker Quarterly.
[02:01:52.650 --> 02:01:55.110]  [SPEAKER_05]: All kinds of information you will not get anywhere else.
[02:01:55.850 --> 02:02:05.610]  [SPEAKER_05]: And you'll also get the videotape from the Hope Conference, Robert Steele's intro to the whole conference, as well as the other opening ceremonies.
[02:02:06.110 --> 02:02:11.070]  [SPEAKER_05]: And in addition, you'll get a full year of the WBAI full deal so that you'll know what's on when.
[02:02:11.570 --> 02:02:15.730]  [SPEAKER_05]: Believe me, all of us here at the radio station need that so that we can figure out when we're on.
[02:02:16.130 --> 02:02:20.450]  [SPEAKER_05]: And it's essential for listeners as well because there are just so many different programs here.
[02:02:21.470 --> 02:02:26.190]  [SPEAKER_05]: We have a special Pacifica News program coming up next, so stay tuned for that.
[02:02:26.390 --> 02:02:29.690]  [SPEAKER_05]: We'll be back again next week at our usual time slot of 10 p.m.
[02:02:30.170 --> 02:02:31.530]  [SPEAKER_05]: Until then, this is Emmanuel Goldstein.
[02:02:31.810 --> 02:02:32.690]  [SPEAKER_05]: Have yourselves a good night.
[02:02:32.790 --> 02:02:33.630]  [SPEAKER_05]: Thanks to everybody who called.
[02:02:33.810 --> 02:02:37.770]  [SPEAKER_05]: Again, 212-279-3400 is our phone number for those of you that have not yet called.
[02:02:38.490 --> 02:02:39.430]  [SPEAKER_05]: We'll see you next week.