Off The Hook - 1995-02-22

[00:18.620 --> 00:22.660]  [SPEAKER_19]: And you are listening to radio station WBAI in New York.
[00:22.880 --> 00:24.640]  [SPEAKER_19]: It's time once again for Off the Hook.
[01:46.760 --> 01:48.000]  [SPEAKER_19]: And good evening, everybody.
[01:48.000 --> 01:49.420]  [SPEAKER_19]: This is Off the Hook.
[01:49.600 --> 01:58.540]  [SPEAKER_19]: Emmanuel Goldstein with you for the next hour from 10 o'clock to 11 o'clock here on listener-sponsored WBAI in New York.
[02:00.520 --> 02:02.900]  [SPEAKER_19]: It's been a bloody week in cyberspace.
[02:04.740 --> 02:10.460]  [SPEAKER_19]: We have no less than four major stories we're working on right now.
[02:12.920 --> 02:14.680]  [SPEAKER_19]: And no end in sight.
[02:15.600 --> 02:16.420]  [SPEAKER_19]: Stay tuned.
[05:02.270 --> 05:05.430]  [SPEAKER_19]: Yes, it's been a very busy week for us here in the hacker world.
[05:05.430 --> 05:10.630]  [SPEAKER_19]: And as I'm sure many of you know by simply looking at a newspaper, a lot has been going on.
[05:10.770 --> 05:14.910]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, we have the obvious story of Kevin Mitnick, which is what the bulk of the program is going to be about.
[05:15.370 --> 05:19.450]  [SPEAKER_19]: Then we have some not-so-obvious stories that maybe you don't know about.
[05:19.470 --> 05:22.710]  [SPEAKER_19]: Or maybe you've just heard little bits and pieces.
[05:23.390 --> 05:27.730]  [SPEAKER_19]: So, we're going to start off with something that you might not have heard anything at all about.
[05:27.730 --> 05:29.430]  [SPEAKER_19]: And that's the situation in Finland.
[05:29.770 --> 05:30.230]  [SPEAKER_19]: That's right.
[05:30.330 --> 05:30.790]  [SPEAKER_19]: Finland.
[05:31.810 --> 05:41.690]  [SPEAKER_19]: The home of an anonymous remailer, which is something that a lot of people on the internet use to send sensitive information back and forth.
[05:41.990 --> 05:43.030]  [SPEAKER_19]: The idea is this.
[05:43.030 --> 05:46.610]  [SPEAKER_19]: You basically send somebody a message.
[05:46.690 --> 05:47.870]  [SPEAKER_19]: You send it to Finland.
[05:48.670 --> 05:51.590]  [SPEAKER_19]: And they disguise your ID.
[05:51.770 --> 05:53.510]  [SPEAKER_19]: In other words, they take away your name.
[05:53.510 --> 05:54.630]  [SPEAKER_19]: They strip your name away from it.
[05:54.730 --> 05:58.930]  [SPEAKER_19]: And they remail it with an anonymous identification number.
[05:59.250 --> 06:02.750]  [SPEAKER_19]: And then the person is able to mail back to that anonymous identification number.
[06:02.890 --> 06:06.190]  [SPEAKER_19]: And it's forwarded again through the anonymous remailer back to you.
[06:06.910 --> 06:27.670]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, that all worked just great, fine and dandy, until last week, when, under the direction, and this is where it gets kind of bizarre, under the direction of the Church of Scientology, that's right, agents of Interpol, that's an agency we haven't really dealt with yet,
[06:27.870 --> 06:40.970]  [SPEAKER_19]: but I guess we will now, Now, they actually presented a search warrant to the anonymous remailer in Finland, and they were able to find out someone's real address.
[06:41.850 --> 06:49.490]  [SPEAKER_19]: According to the system operator, he had a choice of basically letting all the information out or letting the information out for just one user ID, so he chose the latter.
[06:50.030 --> 06:54.510]  [SPEAKER_19]: Of course, what this does is this makes the anonymous remailer pretty much useless.
[06:54.590 --> 06:59.810]  [SPEAKER_19]: I don't know anybody in their right mind that would use an anonymous remailer after something like that happened, or that particular one.
[07:01.730 --> 07:05.510]  [SPEAKER_19]: What we're going to do is basically run over a chronology of events.
[07:06.310 --> 07:08.770]  [SPEAKER_19]: This is dated February 18th.
[07:09.350 --> 07:18.850]  [SPEAKER_19]: The investigators of Bureau of Investigations in Helsinki, known otherwise as the police, have confiscated sender information from a link on the internet in Helsinki.
[07:18.970 --> 07:29.530]  [SPEAKER_19]: The police took information a week ago from the server maintained by Panetic Incorporated of Finland, from which people could send anonymous messages and information throughout the world.
[07:30.630 --> 07:36.930]  [SPEAKER_19]: The police acted upon a request of investigation made by the International Church of Scientology.
[07:37.270 --> 07:51.050]  [SPEAKER_19]: The headquarters of the Church of Scientology claim that an unknown person has penetrated into the computer system of the church itself in the United States and has stolen a report that is classified as business security.
[07:53.270 --> 07:53.790]  [SPEAKER_19]: Yeah.
[07:54.050 --> 08:03.230]  [SPEAKER_19]: According to the announcement made by the Scientologist, the illegal data has been spread on the internet starting on January 23rd, and the Helsinki server has been used to distribute the data.
[08:03.810 --> 08:12.750]  [SPEAKER_19]: Just to keep in mind, these are the same people that are trying to sue Netcom for allowing discussion of the Church of Scientology to take place on the internet.
[08:12.810 --> 08:16.510]  [SPEAKER_19]: And they're also trying to shut down a news group called alt.religion.scientology.
[08:16.750 --> 08:27.730]  [SPEAKER_19]: Of course, as is typical in the computer hacker world, or just the computer world in general, once you draw attention to something like that, its popularity skyrockets.
[08:27.910 --> 08:32.090]  [SPEAKER_19]: And of course, now hundreds of thousands of people are reading alt.religion.scientology.
[08:32.090 --> 08:34.010]  [SPEAKER_19]: And I'm sure a lot more have just written it down.
[08:35.330 --> 08:38.230]  [SPEAKER_19]: So, that's the kind of people we're dealing with right here.
[08:38.730 --> 08:43.990]  [SPEAKER_19]: That's without even getting into any Scientology, whatever it is they stand for.
[08:44.450 --> 08:50.170]  [SPEAKER_19]: The server allows people to send material to the net showing only a numerical ID as a sender.
[08:50.770 --> 08:55.250]  [SPEAKER_19]: A real place of origin is left to the server logs with which the sender can be traced.
[08:55.450 --> 09:12.290]  [SPEAKER_19]: The lawyer for the Church of Scientology in Finland, Mr. Lucy Savanen, suspects in the announcement that the person who hacked into the Church of Scientology computer system is possibly the same person who sent this mail through anon.penet.fi, which is the email address for the anonymous remailer.
[09:12.930 --> 09:18.510]  [SPEAKER_19]: At least the person who spread this information knows from where and from whom he or she has gotten the information.
[09:19.390 --> 09:25.250]  [SPEAKER_19]: The police grounded their search in information confiscation by the fact that the sender is suspected of unauthorized use of a computer.
[09:26.010 --> 09:33.650]  [SPEAKER_19]: The president of Penetic Incorporated, Mr. Johan Helsingius, says that he hadn't any other possibility than to give the information requested to the police.
[09:34.230 --> 09:37.110]  [SPEAKER_19]: Otherwise, the police would have confiscated the whole machine, he says.
[09:37.550 --> 09:39.810]  [SPEAKER_19]: Police got a sample of so-called login...
[09:40.730 --> 09:42.990]  [SPEAKER_19]: log information is what they call here.
[09:43.050 --> 09:47.130]  [SPEAKER_19]: Okay, log information, which was delivered to the police in Los Angeles via Interpol.
[09:47.490 --> 09:50.290]  [SPEAKER_19]: Police stopped the investigation of this case last Monday.
[09:50.790 --> 09:54.190]  [SPEAKER_19]: According to the investigation, no one has committed a crime, at least in Finland.
[09:55.170 --> 10:04.010]  [SPEAKER_19]: The investigator assigned to this case, Mr. Kaj Malmberg, says that the information gathered from the anon.penet.fi logs doesn't necessarily lead to the real sender.
[10:04.070 --> 10:06.870]  [SPEAKER_19]: You can only see the information that the sender has given to himself.
[10:06.870 --> 10:10.350]  [SPEAKER_19]: I suspect that the information gained from the server won't lead us anywhere.
[10:11.010 --> 10:15.190]  [SPEAKER_19]: Also, the maintainer of the anon server thinks that tracing the real sender is hard.
[10:15.310 --> 10:18.150]  [SPEAKER_19]: A technically skilled person can register with false names.
[10:19.290 --> 10:27.930]  [SPEAKER_19]: Helsingius thinks the actions taken by the police are principally remarkable, as supposedly the first time the police broke the anonymity shield of any anonymous server on the internet.
[10:28.150 --> 10:33.050]  [SPEAKER_19]: There are about 20 anonymous servers operating in the world, but the police haven't visited any of the others.
[10:33.750 --> 10:40.130]  [SPEAKER_19]: The person hunted by the Scientologist has also delivered troublesome information, that is, troublesome for the church, to the internet before.
[10:40.670 --> 10:50.930]  [SPEAKER_19]: According to the information gained by Helsingius, few anonymous servers have been silencing the Scientology criticism after the church's lawyers have been pressuring the maintainers of the services with their letters.
[10:51.410 --> 10:55.290]  [SPEAKER_19]: The Church of Scientology says the reasons have been the copyright violations.
[11:03.770 --> 11:07.310]  [SPEAKER_19]: Keep in mind, this is a translation, so some of these sentences are kind of weird.
[11:21.050 --> 11:23.890]  [SPEAKER_19]: And that's pretty much everything that's relevant here.
[11:24.730 --> 11:32.110]  [SPEAKER_19]: It's kind of scary when you see Interpol getting involved in all this, and when you see anonymous re-mailers get, for all intents and purposes, shut down.
[11:32.790 --> 11:33.510]  [SPEAKER_19]: Fiberoptic, welcome.
[11:34.190 --> 11:36.810]  [SPEAKER_19]: Would you use an anonymous re-mailer?
[11:37.590 --> 11:44.930]  [SPEAKER_18]: Personally, I've never really had much of a need to, but with all this talk of Interpol, it reminds me of something out of the Naked Lunch, Agents of the Interzone.
[11:45.770 --> 11:50.710]  [SPEAKER_18]: So now we're going to have to start worrying about giant talking cockroaches and things like that.
[11:51.610 --> 11:53.510]  [SPEAKER_19]: Yeah, it might be a lot closer than we think.
[11:54.970 --> 12:01.290]  [SPEAKER_19]: But it's sobering, I'll say that, when you can't even count on anonymity.
[12:01.370 --> 12:02.330]  [SPEAKER_19]: How do you think they work?
[12:02.450 --> 12:07.730]  [SPEAKER_19]: They basically kept a list of everybody that sent in email to them?
[12:07.870 --> 12:19.390]  [SPEAKER_18]: I think apparently what they must have been doing is, normally the way a re-mailer works is that it strips off the header, the original header of the message, and it tacks on the header of...
[12:19.390 --> 12:31.850]  [SPEAKER_18]: I mean, all it's really doing is looking at the body, so it's re-mailing the message, so that the recipient of the message is preserved, and they get the message, and where it says that it's coming from is the address of the re-mailer itself.
[12:32.730 --> 12:35.650]  [SPEAKER_18]: So, but at the same, it would be nice if that's all it did.
[12:35.770 --> 12:42.310]  [SPEAKER_18]: But unfortunately, lots of nosy people like logging their anonymous re-mailer, so they're not so anonymous anymore.
[12:42.930 --> 12:51.890]  [SPEAKER_18]: Or for people that want to, say for example, the way anon.penit.fi worked, is that you could actually register with it.
[12:52.790 --> 13:08.970]  [SPEAKER_18]: So your particular site, or it doesn't necessarily, as was stated, it doesn't have to be a real site, you could directly connect to the mail port at pennant, and register a fake e-mail address, so that that fake e-mail address is recognized by pennant.
[13:09.850 --> 13:12.430]  [SPEAKER_18]: And you wouldn't actually exist anywhere in particular.
[13:13.430 --> 13:16.290]  [SPEAKER_18]: And so, I mean, that's how you could basically get around the logging.
[13:16.650 --> 13:19.670]  [SPEAKER_18]: So while they're logging, they're not really logging a real site.
[13:19.790 --> 13:24.110]  [SPEAKER_19]: What I'm wondering is, did they take every step they could have possibly taken to keep that information secret?
[13:24.110 --> 13:27.310]  [SPEAKER_19]: Could they have encrypted it somehow, so that when someone came...
[13:27.310 --> 13:28.510]  [SPEAKER_18]: Yeah, they certainly could have done that.
[13:29.190 --> 13:34.210]  [SPEAKER_18]: Why they didn't, if they truly wanted to remain anonymous, is a mystery.
[13:34.570 --> 13:36.550]  [SPEAKER_18]: Why do they want to keep logs like that available?
[13:36.570 --> 13:43.890]  [SPEAKER_18]: I think, if anything, if I was someone maintaining an anonymous re-mailer, that's the last information I'd want to keep online, because that would make me a target.
[13:43.930 --> 13:47.910]  [SPEAKER_18]: I think it boils down to the same reason a lot of these things boil down to.
[13:48.490 --> 13:48.910]  [SPEAKER_19]: Sloppiness.
[13:49.270 --> 13:50.430]  [SPEAKER_19]: People get lazy.
[13:50.750 --> 13:56.990]  [SPEAKER_19]: They keep logs for their own convenience, not realizing that those logs will also be a boon to their biggest enemies.
[13:57.670 --> 14:02.070]  [SPEAKER_19]: And computer hackers are probably among the leading offenders in that regard.
[14:02.750 --> 14:04.730]  [SPEAKER_19]: They keep track of everything, you know?
[14:04.850 --> 14:09.610]  [SPEAKER_19]: And they keep nice, neat little logs of who they talk to and what they get from certain people.
[14:10.490 --> 14:11.710]  [SPEAKER_19]: Authorities love this kind of thing.
[14:11.850 --> 14:13.410]  [SPEAKER_19]: And they love to misinterpret it.
[14:13.470 --> 14:17.410]  [SPEAKER_19]: They love to do whatever it is they feel needs to be done with this information.
[14:17.410 --> 14:24.750]  [SPEAKER_19]: And now, unfortunately, it's gotten into the hands of Interpol, the Church of Scientology, the federal government in our country and in Finland.
[14:25.290 --> 14:27.990]  [SPEAKER_19]: This is information that supposedly was anonymous.
[14:28.630 --> 14:31.950]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, there is no anonymity on the net, as I think we're starting to learn.
[14:32.290 --> 14:33.890]  [SPEAKER_19]: At least, not yet.
[14:34.990 --> 14:39.330]  [SPEAKER_19]: Now, we have a breaking story that is taking place right now, actually.
[14:39.930 --> 14:47.830]  [SPEAKER_19]: We don't know all that much about this yet, but this could be a continuation of what started last week with the capture of Kevin Mitnick.
[14:48.010 --> 14:52.850]  [SPEAKER_19]: As of this morning, there have been raids in several cities in the United States.
[14:52.850 --> 15:04.510]  [SPEAKER_19]: I've heard up to 10 cities, but we've gotten confirmation on Philadelphia, Seattle, Illinois, part of Illinois, that is, and parts of Texas.
[15:05.730 --> 15:07.570]  [SPEAKER_19]: Supposedly, other people are involved.
[15:07.570 --> 15:10.070]  [SPEAKER_19]: Again, we're just learning about this.
[15:10.250 --> 15:19.530]  [SPEAKER_19]: One very interesting thing, in the few cases that we've heard, these are the three things that the federal authorities said they were interested in.
[15:19.730 --> 15:20.770]  [SPEAKER_19]: A, conspiracy.
[15:20.970 --> 15:23.030]  [SPEAKER_19]: Of course, you know they're always interested in conspiracy.
[15:24.350 --> 15:25.750]  [SPEAKER_19]: B, cellular information.
[15:26.430 --> 15:34.190]  [SPEAKER_19]: And, of course, that was a big thing with Kevin Mitnick, was the alleged cellular information they found on various accounts.
[15:34.810 --> 15:38.050]  [SPEAKER_19]: And, this is the big one, money laundering.
[15:38.830 --> 15:40.590]  [SPEAKER_19]: Now, that's a brand new one.
[15:40.670 --> 15:42.690]  [SPEAKER_19]: We've never seen a charge of money laundering before.
[15:42.770 --> 15:47.090]  [SPEAKER_19]: I'm not even sure I understand what money laundering is, or how it would relate to something like this.
[15:47.210 --> 15:56.710]  [SPEAKER_19]: And the people I spoke to were completely baffled as to what these guys were talking about when they said they had some sort of evidence of money laundering, or were looking into money laundering.
[15:57.730 --> 15:59.810]  [SPEAKER_19]: Any hint of a clue as to what that could be about?
[15:59.810 --> 16:17.510]  [SPEAKER_18]: Well, I mean, as far as my understanding goes of what money laundering means, I believe it means money that was gotten through illicit means, which has then been converted either by using it to buy merchandise, which would obscure the origin of the illicit profit.
[16:17.790 --> 16:18.210]  [SPEAKER_11]: Mm-hmm.
[16:18.650 --> 16:26.490]  [SPEAKER_18]: What that has to do with hackers, I don't know, unless, of course, some of the people in question were selling stolen merchandise.
[16:26.490 --> 16:26.650]  [SPEAKER_18]: Nice.
[16:27.690 --> 16:32.290]  [SPEAKER_19]: Okay, but isn't that pretty much theft and selling stolen...
[16:32.290 --> 16:33.870]  [SPEAKER_19]: I mean, that's a crime in itself right there.
[16:34.370 --> 16:36.170]  [SPEAKER_19]: This money laundering is just...
[16:36.170 --> 16:37.790]  [SPEAKER_18]: Yeah, it sounds kind of nebulous.
[16:37.910 --> 16:39.590]  [SPEAKER_18]: I don't know exactly what they're trying to...
[16:39.590 --> 16:41.670]  [SPEAKER_19]: It's what they charge organized criminals.
[16:41.870 --> 16:42.050]  [SPEAKER_19]: Yeah, exactly.
[16:42.050 --> 16:44.130]  [SPEAKER_19]: Organized crime people always being charged with money laundering.
[16:44.190 --> 16:46.490]  [SPEAKER_18]: Yeah, you'd hear that in conjunction with racketeering.
[16:46.650 --> 16:48.530]  [SPEAKER_19]: Right, and I'm sure we're going to be hearing that word again, too.
[16:50.910 --> 16:53.130]  [SPEAKER_19]: Okay, the other major story...
[16:53.130 --> 16:54.810]  [SPEAKER_19]: Again, let's update people on that.
[16:55.010 --> 16:56.330]  [SPEAKER_19]: Raids taking place this morning.
[16:57.090 --> 17:03.870]  [SPEAKER_19]: Under the auspices of the FBI, not the Secret Service, the FBI this time, targeting people with cellular information.
[17:04.090 --> 17:06.230]  [SPEAKER_19]: This may or may not be tied into the Kevin Mitnick case.
[17:07.030 --> 17:08.810]  [SPEAKER_19]: I suspect it might be...
[17:08.810 --> 17:11.090]  [SPEAKER_19]: I suspect all of these are kind of tied together in some way.
[17:11.210 --> 17:19.810]  [SPEAKER_18]: I suspect that to a certain degree they might be suspicious about that certain million-dollar cellular software that might have leaked out, or so they think.
[17:20.210 --> 17:20.450]  [SPEAKER_18]: Right.
[17:20.450 --> 17:38.390]  [SPEAKER_18]: And I think to a degree they might be searching around looking for people that they think are involved in advanced cellular programming that might have gotten in contact with either Kevin or people like Kevin who may or may not have been in possession of this certain expensive cellular software.
[17:39.230 --> 17:40.110]  [SPEAKER_18]: It's incredible.
[17:40.110 --> 17:43.750]  [SPEAKER_19]: The lengths they'll go to control knowledge.
[17:43.990 --> 17:45.310]  [SPEAKER_19]: The paranoia is high.
[17:45.410 --> 17:46.870]  [SPEAKER_19]: This isn't about selling things.
[17:46.950 --> 17:48.550]  [SPEAKER_19]: At least with Kevin, this is not about selling things.
[17:48.630 --> 17:54.110]  [SPEAKER_19]: This is about curiosity, learning, you know, figuring it all out, accessing things.
[17:54.230 --> 17:55.750]  [SPEAKER_19]: That's really what the threat is.
[17:56.230 --> 17:57.670]  [SPEAKER_19]: Make no mistake about that.
[17:58.050 --> 18:10.390]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, the other story before we get to Kevin has to do with the particular tale of pornography on the Internet in alt.sex.stories a few weeks ago.
[18:10.650 --> 18:18.790]  [SPEAKER_19]: This guy named Jake Baker posted a story about this girl that supposedly was a real person at his school.
[18:19.090 --> 18:19.930]  [SPEAKER_19]: And it was all kinds of...
[18:19.930 --> 18:21.650]  [SPEAKER_19]: I actually was able to get a copy of the story.
[18:21.790 --> 18:24.190]  [SPEAKER_19]: I managed to get onto the news group.
[18:24.350 --> 18:25.630]  [SPEAKER_19]: In fact, anyone out there can do this too.
[18:25.770 --> 18:31.250]  [SPEAKER_19]: Alt.sex.stories And they're being reposted in various places.
[18:31.270 --> 18:36.490]  [SPEAKER_19]: You can read it for yourself and see what you think of it, which I think is always the best way to judge something.
[18:36.490 --> 18:42.870]  [SPEAKER_19]: What's interesting is the reaction a lot of people are giving to seeing the story being posted.
[18:43.030 --> 18:48.810]  [SPEAKER_19]: They think that the entire net will be shut down by federal authorities because we're posting a story that's illegal.
[18:48.970 --> 18:51.730]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, let's make some things clear here.
[18:51.730 --> 18:53.310]  [SPEAKER_19]: A story is not illegal.
[18:53.770 --> 19:02.410]  [SPEAKER_19]: Now, perhaps this person can be found guilty of threatening somebody using their name in a fictitious story that ends in violence and murder.
[19:03.090 --> 19:05.450]  [SPEAKER_19]: Maybe that can be constituted as a threat.
[19:05.650 --> 19:12.270]  [SPEAKER_19]: I don't think it's right to be putting the person in federal prison, which is where he wound up, for writing a story.
[19:12.530 --> 19:17.670]  [SPEAKER_19]: You know, if it can be found that he actually was threatening this person, then that's one thing right there.
[19:17.850 --> 19:26.710]  [SPEAKER_19]: Writing a fictitious story about somebody, even if it's a real person or a real name or a similar name or what have you, it just seems a bit heavy-handed.
[19:26.870 --> 19:32.950]  [SPEAKER_19]: It seems like they're taking a few major steps against free speech there.
[19:33.490 --> 19:34.070]  [SPEAKER_19]: I don't know.
[19:34.190 --> 19:35.530]  [SPEAKER_19]: It's a tough one to call.
[19:35.650 --> 19:46.790]  [SPEAKER_19]: I mean, the university certainly has the right to do certain things if students act inappropriately, but when you get the federal authorities throwing people in prison for posting something on the internet, think about it.
[19:46.910 --> 19:47.850]  [SPEAKER_19]: Where can this lead?
[19:48.970 --> 19:50.130]  [SPEAKER_19]: It's rather scary.
[19:50.330 --> 19:52.150]  [SPEAKER_19]: So anyway, I managed to get that story.
[19:52.230 --> 19:53.790]  [SPEAKER_19]: Hopefully, I'm not in trouble now for reading it.
[19:55.970 --> 19:57.270]  [SPEAKER_19]: It's giving me some ideas, though.
[19:59.990 --> 20:04.770]  [SPEAKER_19]: And, yeah, it's a story you'll be seeing a lot more of in various places.
[20:05.010 --> 20:06.150]  [SPEAKER_19]: There's an article in Time this week.
[20:06.230 --> 20:08.070]  [SPEAKER_19]: Oh, speaking of media, there's...
[20:08.070 --> 20:09.770]  [SPEAKER_19]: I believe you're in Newsweek this week.
[20:09.830 --> 20:11.870]  [SPEAKER_19]: I think I'm in Time concerning...
[20:11.870 --> 20:15.090]  [SPEAKER_19]: Yeah, concerning the whole Mitnick hacker type of thing.
[20:15.510 --> 20:16.870]  [SPEAKER_18]: Oh, I haven't seen it yet.
[20:17.090 --> 20:18.770]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, actually, you're the one that told me you were in Newsweek.
[20:18.990 --> 20:21.190]  [SPEAKER_18]: Oh, but yet I still haven't seen it.
[20:21.230 --> 20:21.350]  [SPEAKER_18]: You haven't seen it.
[20:21.350 --> 20:22.270]  [SPEAKER_19]: I haven't seen mine either.
[20:22.410 --> 20:23.550]  [SPEAKER_19]: I'm not sure if it's actually happening.
[20:24.690 --> 20:27.510]  [SPEAKER_19]: There's an interesting piece last Tuesday on...
[20:27.510 --> 20:31.490]  [SPEAKER_19]: last Sunday, rather, on the news about cellular monitoring, which was kind of fun.
[20:31.770 --> 20:31.910]  [SPEAKER_18]: Yeah.
[20:32.030 --> 20:35.170]  [SPEAKER_19]: Where we were driving around the expressway doing all kinds of weird things.
[20:35.370 --> 20:39.470]  [SPEAKER_19]: I think it drove home the point rather well that cellular phones are not secure.
[20:40.230 --> 20:41.850]  [SPEAKER_19]: Hopefully, people will heed that advice.
[20:42.190 --> 20:47.230]  [SPEAKER_19]: If you're going to talk in a cellular phone, be aware that there are people listening, and they won't all be as nice as we are.
[20:48.450 --> 20:49.810]  [SPEAKER_19]: And next Sunday...
[20:49.810 --> 20:50.310]  [SPEAKER_19]: Oh, boy.
[20:50.390 --> 20:51.730]  [SPEAKER_19]: Next Sunday is the one we look forward to.
[20:51.890 --> 20:52.590]  [SPEAKER_19]: You want to tell them, Fiber?
[20:53.250 --> 20:53.610]  [SPEAKER_18]: Yeah.
[20:54.030 --> 21:02.690]  [SPEAKER_18]: Next Sunday, supposedly, they're finally going to show the interview that we did with that men of men, Mike Wallace, on 60 Minutes.
[21:02.730 --> 21:08.150]  [SPEAKER_19]: I'm still in awe of being questioned mercilessly by Mike Wallace, of all people, you know?
[21:08.410 --> 21:13.830]  [SPEAKER_19]: But isn't it true, Mr. Goldstein, that you defend child pornography and bestiality on the net?
[21:14.310 --> 21:16.410]  [SPEAKER_19]: That's what the whole purpose of the internet is.
[21:17.230 --> 21:19.130]  [SPEAKER_19]: Oh, I broke down and confessed right there.
[21:19.710 --> 21:21.090]  [SPEAKER_19]: I would have confessed to anything.
[21:21.570 --> 21:25.910]  [SPEAKER_18]: In fact, you clarify that the internet is nothing but government-funded child pornography.
[21:26.130 --> 21:26.430]  [SPEAKER_18]: That's right.
[21:27.830 --> 21:28.630]  [SPEAKER_18]: Democratically funded.
[21:30.090 --> 21:31.690]  [SPEAKER_19]: Yeah, so that's going to be on this Sunday.
[21:31.890 --> 21:34.090]  [SPEAKER_19]: Who knows what they're going to make us say on that.
[21:34.230 --> 21:35.210]  [SPEAKER_19]: It's going to be kind of interesting.
[21:35.490 --> 21:51.930]  [SPEAKER_19]: It's going to be kind of interesting.
[21:51.930 --> 21:53.970]  [SPEAKER_19]: about this on the net and various other forums.
[21:54.410 --> 21:57.070]  [SPEAKER_19]: Kevin Mitnick was captured in Raleigh, North Carolina.
[21:58.290 --> 22:08.210]  [SPEAKER_19]: His cellular path was traced by computers that he was allegedly logging into to the apartment that he was staying in.
[22:09.110 --> 22:12.430]  [SPEAKER_19]: Now, what they are saying here is simply remarkable.
[22:12.650 --> 22:18.130]  [SPEAKER_19]: There's basically three things that they are saying he did right off the bat.
[22:18.430 --> 22:20.710]  [SPEAKER_19]: Now remember, we had no idea why he was on the run.
[22:20.710 --> 22:26.170]  [SPEAKER_19]: Every time we asked, and we've been asking this for over a year, we were told that he violated probation.
[22:26.450 --> 22:26.990]  [SPEAKER_19]: Okay, great.
[22:27.170 --> 22:28.330]  [SPEAKER_19]: Why did he violate probation?
[22:28.410 --> 22:29.010]  [SPEAKER_19]: What did he do?
[22:29.210 --> 22:30.470]  [SPEAKER_19]: You know, we never would get an answer.
[22:30.630 --> 22:33.350]  [SPEAKER_19]: It's like they wanted to just lock this guy up for some reason.
[22:33.850 --> 22:38.550]  [SPEAKER_19]: And in my last conversations with Kevin, it seemed that he didn't really understand it either.
[22:38.550 --> 22:43.030]  [SPEAKER_19]: He just knew that he had to keep one step ahead of them or something horrible would happen.
[22:43.650 --> 22:49.630]  [SPEAKER_19]: And unfortunately, he wasn't able to keep that far ahead of them as he had hoped to.
[22:50.230 --> 22:58.130]  [SPEAKER_19]: Okay, what everybody is hearing in the media is that Kevin stole 20,000 credit card numbers from Netcom.
[22:59.010 --> 23:00.610]  [SPEAKER_19]: 20,000 credit card numbers.
[23:00.670 --> 23:02.230]  [SPEAKER_19]: That's a lot of credit cards there.
[23:02.330 --> 23:08.130]  [SPEAKER_19]: Now, the real story, and I don't know why this didn't come out in the newspaper because this has been publicized.
[23:08.370 --> 23:19.970]  [SPEAKER_19]: I mean, I happen to know that people who write these stories read 2600, and in 2600, in the autumn issue, we said very clearly, the Netcom credit card file has been compromised.
[23:20.270 --> 23:21.510]  [SPEAKER_19]: It has been copied.
[23:21.830 --> 23:22.910]  [SPEAKER_19]: People are looking at it.
[23:23.010 --> 23:23.990]  [SPEAKER_19]: It's all over the place.
[23:24.330 --> 23:25.990]  [SPEAKER_19]: Common knowledge on the internet.
[23:25.990 --> 23:28.430]  [SPEAKER_19]: It was posted on IRC of all places.
[23:28.430 --> 23:29.350]  [SPEAKER_19]: It was everywhere.
[23:29.870 --> 23:39.410]  [SPEAKER_19]: So, they find this particular file in someone's account or an account that someone has alleged to frequent, and they say, this is the person that did it.
[23:40.170 --> 23:44.350]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, whether or not he had a copy of it or not, the file was out there.
[23:44.350 --> 23:45.450]  [SPEAKER_19]: It was everywhere.
[23:45.910 --> 23:47.410]  [SPEAKER_19]: It was not hard to get.
[23:48.490 --> 23:57.890]  [SPEAKER_19]: So, it's an exaggeration at best, a lie at worst, as to Kevin's stealing these credit cards.
[23:58.290 --> 24:04.570]  [SPEAKER_19]: If you read about 16 paragraphs into the story, though, it does say that Kevin did not use any of these cards.
[24:04.670 --> 24:06.250]  [SPEAKER_19]: There was no allegation that he did.
[24:06.390 --> 24:08.470]  [SPEAKER_19]: There was no allegation that he ever caused any harm, in fact.
[24:08.750 --> 24:12.190]  [SPEAKER_19]: It was just somebody that they really wanted to get, and they wanted to get badly.
[24:12.950 --> 24:20.710]  [SPEAKER_19]: Okay, so the major thing that most people have heard is that this is the guy that stole credit card numbers, and that's what convicts him in the eyes of most people.
[24:21.290 --> 24:23.870]  [SPEAKER_19]: The fact that someone could steal your credit card number.
[24:23.930 --> 24:25.050]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, it's a personal thing then.
[24:25.470 --> 24:28.210]  [SPEAKER_19]: You see, they're reaching into your pocket, grabbing your numbers.
[24:30.270 --> 24:31.350]  [SPEAKER_19]: That's not good.
[24:32.350 --> 24:35.070]  [SPEAKER_19]: So, that's a major media exaggeration right there.
[24:35.390 --> 24:47.950]  [SPEAKER_19]: Now, another thing that they said he did was they said he left taunting messages in the voicemail system of the scientist that he allegedly took cellular software from.
[24:48.910 --> 24:52.970]  [SPEAKER_19]: And, of course, we're talking about Shimomura.
[24:53.330 --> 24:54.470]  [SPEAKER_19]: What's his first name?
[24:54.910 --> 24:55.510]  [SPEAKER_19]: Tsutomo.
[24:55.610 --> 24:56.050]  [SPEAKER_19]: Tsutomo.
[24:56.170 --> 24:57.110]  [SPEAKER_19]: Tsutomo Shimomura.
[24:57.550 --> 24:59.670]  [SPEAKER_19]: Now, I happen to hear these messages.
[24:59.990 --> 25:03.470]  [SPEAKER_19]: I got copies of the messages that Shimomura posted on the net.
[25:03.850 --> 25:04.990]  [SPEAKER_19]: It's not Kevin Mitnick.
[25:05.470 --> 25:06.770]  [SPEAKER_19]: It's not his voice.
[25:07.810 --> 25:10.910]  [SPEAKER_19]: And, well, let's just say we know it's not Kevin.
[25:11.550 --> 25:15.930]  [SPEAKER_18]: In fact, I think we should mention there are at least two people in each of the calls.
[25:16.190 --> 25:17.750]  [SPEAKER_19]: There are at least two people in each of the calls.
[25:17.950 --> 25:24.410]  [SPEAKER_19]: And it wasn't really like Kevin to play phone pranks on the phone with other people.
[25:24.530 --> 25:25.530]  [SPEAKER_19]: It just didn't seem this style.
[25:25.670 --> 25:27.510]  [SPEAKER_19]: But, regardless, neither one of those people is Kevin.
[25:27.510 --> 25:31.550]  [SPEAKER_19]: I think a lot of people in the hacker world can verify that.
[25:32.650 --> 25:34.670]  [SPEAKER_19]: So, that's another major thing right there.
[25:34.850 --> 25:36.410]  [SPEAKER_19]: He didn't taunt the person.
[25:36.570 --> 25:38.370]  [SPEAKER_19]: He didn't take the credit cards.
[25:38.630 --> 25:42.630]  [SPEAKER_19]: At least, he wasn't the first person to access them if they were even taken by him.
[25:44.870 --> 25:47.570]  [SPEAKER_19]: The other thing now is the software itself.
[25:47.990 --> 25:54.810]  [SPEAKER_19]: The security software that was found in this guy's account in San Diego, the scientist's account.
[25:54.990 --> 25:55.610]  [SPEAKER_19]: What do you think of that?
[25:55.630 --> 25:56.810]  [SPEAKER_19]: What's your take on all that?
[25:57.770 --> 26:14.890]  [SPEAKER_18]: Well, if there's any truth to the fact that Shimomura was programming security tools for such shady characters as the National Security Agency, then I'm sure that the government would consider these security tools to be of a sensitive nature.
[26:15.730 --> 26:25.910]  [SPEAKER_18]: But truth be told, anything that Kevin may or may not have found on Shimomura's machine is certainly not anything from another planet.
[26:25.910 --> 26:29.610]  [SPEAKER_18]: it's something that could have been written by most anyone.
[26:29.610 --> 26:34.710]  [SPEAKER_18]: Granted, they were developed by the human being known as Tsutomo Shimomura.
[26:34.950 --> 26:44.610]  [SPEAKER_18]: So, obviously, it's not out of the realm of possibility that in reality, any proficient programmer, knowledgeable in security, could have written such tools.
[26:45.350 --> 26:49.790]  [SPEAKER_18]: The fact that Kevin may have gotten them off his machine, I think, is irrelevant.
[26:50.970 --> 26:58.330]  [SPEAKER_18]: Because anyone in the know is capable of performing what's known lately in the media as spoofing.
[27:01.310 --> 27:05.050]  [SPEAKER_19]: It's certainly very disturbing to see this kind of thing happen to somebody.
[27:05.330 --> 27:08.750]  [SPEAKER_19]: And to realize that they really want blood this time.
[27:08.830 --> 27:13.570]  [SPEAKER_19]: They really want to put him away and teach a lesson to the rest of us.
[27:14.370 --> 27:21.950]  [SPEAKER_19]: And if you just look a little deeper into this story, you realize that there's so much more to this than is being reported, even though there's been so much press on this recently.
[27:22.750 --> 27:30.110]  [SPEAKER_19]: On the phone with us, a good friend of Kevin Mitnick's from as far back as the 1970s.
[27:30.890 --> 27:35.990]  [SPEAKER_19]: And, you know, actually, I don't really know how I should introduce this person, so I'm going to let him introduce himself.
[27:36.130 --> 27:37.410]  [SPEAKER_19]: The friend of Kevin Mitnick.
[27:37.950 --> 27:38.530]  [SPEAKER_19]: Are you there?
[27:38.870 --> 27:39.210]  Hello?
[27:39.450 --> 27:39.850]  [SPEAKER_19]: Go ahead.
[27:40.030 --> 27:40.310]  [SPEAKER_06]: Hi.
[27:40.410 --> 27:40.970]  [SPEAKER_06]: What shall we call you?
[27:41.190 --> 27:41.670]  [SPEAKER_06]: Dave Harrison.
[27:41.850 --> 27:46.230]  [SPEAKER_06]: I've known Kevin since, I think, Okay.
[27:46.550 --> 27:47.710]  [SPEAKER_19]: And what was he like back then?
[27:48.570 --> 27:50.430]  [SPEAKER_06]: Just your, you know, inquisitive teenager.
[27:52.750 --> 27:56.350]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's, you know, very just interested in the technology around him.
[27:57.230 --> 28:07.350]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, one thing I'd like to say right off the top is in all the years I've known him, I've never known him to do anything malicious, you know, or do anything for profit or for financial gain.
[28:08.090 --> 28:14.890]  [SPEAKER_06]: He's just always been inquisitive, and, you know, I think whatever he's done has basically been for the challenge of doing it.
[28:16.670 --> 28:20.910]  [SPEAKER_19]: Now, I assume you read the book Cyberpunk, that was a third about Kevin Mitnick.
[28:22.530 --> 28:24.730]  [SPEAKER_06]: No, I read bits and pieces of it.
[28:25.010 --> 28:25.290]  [SPEAKER_19]: Uh-huh.
[28:25.670 --> 28:29.730]  [SPEAKER_19]: What do you think of the earlier media allegations as to what Kevin was like?
[28:29.750 --> 28:31.350]  [SPEAKER_19]: Not counting what happened last week.
[28:32.010 --> 28:33.250]  [SPEAKER_06]: You mean Mr. Fatburger?
[28:33.670 --> 28:35.970]  [SPEAKER_06]: I think blown way out of proportion.
[28:36.310 --> 28:36.570]  [SPEAKER_11]: Uh-huh.
[28:38.350 --> 28:45.910]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, I don't know, they're just giving a lot of coverage to this, and I guess it's because the internet is such a buzzword these days.
[28:47.610 --> 28:55.550]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, when you see all the bad stories about CompuServe America Online, I guess it just makes, you know, good press to make somebody out to be a bad boy.
[28:56.270 --> 28:57.830]  [SPEAKER_19]: To keep the rest of us in line.
[28:58.110 --> 28:58.470]  [SPEAKER_06]: Right.
[29:00.210 --> 29:06.450]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, I think there are a lot worse people out there that the government should be concentrating on nailing.
[29:07.590 --> 29:11.530]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, I know when Kevin was on his probation here, he was doing really well.
[29:12.670 --> 29:26.830]  [SPEAKER_06]: It always seemed to me, the way he was talking about things going on in his life, that there were a couple of the guys that were out to get him because the government seemed to be dissatisfied with the sentencing and the probation he got.
[29:28.010 --> 29:36.070]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, you know, I know he had mentioned once that he just had a funny feeling that one minute before his probation ended, they were going to get him for something.
[29:36.970 --> 29:42.950]  [SPEAKER_19]: Do you know what the circumstances were initially when they said he was wanted for violating probation?
[29:45.670 --> 29:54.370]  [SPEAKER_06]: No, all I heard was that he was supposedly getting some information from DMV.
[29:56.270 --> 29:59.310]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, I don't know how he would do that.
[29:59.450 --> 30:06.270]  [SPEAKER_06]: I know he wasn't using a computer or a modem in all the time that, you know, we spent together when he was on probation.
[30:09.650 --> 30:10.810]  [SPEAKER_19]: And anything else?
[30:13.970 --> 30:24.550]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, I don't know, you know, just like I say, it's just, I guess they just try to make an example out of him, just as you said earlier.
[30:25.650 --> 30:27.570]  [SPEAKER_19]: When was the last time you had contact with him?
[30:28.690 --> 30:30.190]  [SPEAKER_06]: A couple of months ago.
[30:30.350 --> 30:39.470]  [SPEAKER_06]: Our group has a weekly user group meeting at a local deli, and he knows this because this has been going on for many, many years.
[30:40.130 --> 30:46.770]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, you know, he's called me a couple of times just to let me know that he was okay and, you know, that he was still looking over his shoulder.
[30:47.950 --> 30:48.250]  [SPEAKER_19]: Uh-huh.
[30:48.610 --> 30:52.790]  [SPEAKER_19]: Did you get the sense that he didn't think that capture was inevitable?
[30:55.190 --> 31:13.170]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, I guess it's hard to say because he never really sounded worried or anything like that, but, you know, he was always kind of, you know, wondering what was going on, if anybody had talked to anybody, you know, if any questions had been asked, of course,
[31:13.350 --> 31:13.850]  [SPEAKER_06]: you know, no.
[31:14.210 --> 31:31.330]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, now, this is where it gets interesting because last week, actually, maybe about ten days ago when I had the last of my series of conversations with him, he was very concerned because he had information, and his information was almost always impeccable,
[31:32.010 --> 31:40.210]  [SPEAKER_19]: he had information that the New York Times reporter John Markoff was writing a story about him, and he wanted to know what he was writing a story about.
[31:40.430 --> 31:45.930]  [SPEAKER_19]: I mean, this is the same reporter that put him on page one back in the summertime, just to say he was on the run.
[31:46.030 --> 31:56.550]  [SPEAKER_19]: Now, when's the last time you saw an article in the New York Times and the front page was somebody's picture saying, by the way, this guy's on the run, hasn't done anything in the last year or so, and nothing really has happened, but he's just on the run,
[31:56.670 --> 31:57.470]  [SPEAKER_19]: keep an eye out for him.
[31:58.450 --> 32:10.770]  [SPEAKER_19]: So, he had good information that another article was being written, and he wanted to know what exactly that was all about, and he had asked me if I had heard anything, and I had not, and we were both trying to figure out what this was all about, and of course,
[32:11.230 --> 32:12.450]  [SPEAKER_19]: well, this is what it was all about.
[32:12.710 --> 32:16.350]  [SPEAKER_19]: Apparently, some people had some advanced knowledge this was going to be happening.
[32:16.990 --> 32:17.890]  [SPEAKER_19]: Does that surprise you?
[32:18.710 --> 32:19.810]  [SPEAKER_06]: No, not at all.
[32:20.290 --> 32:32.270]  [SPEAKER_06]: I've also heard that he's writing a book, so maybe, you know, by putting, by just keeping all this out in the news, it probably helped his sales.
[32:33.410 --> 32:38.110]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, it's going to make one heck of a film now, and what you say could be true.
[32:38.390 --> 32:46.250]  [SPEAKER_19]: I mean, if a book comes out anytime soon, I guess that would confirm that, but it's weird how this whole thing developed.
[32:46.470 --> 32:56.430]  [SPEAKER_19]: Apparently, I this Times reporter was part of the whole process, and that's what we're learning by hearing how the whole scenario came down in the first place.
[32:57.130 --> 33:17.750]  [SPEAKER_19]: The tracking process involved Tsutuma Shimomura, which I would expect it to involve, because he was the person that feels he was wronged by Kevin, and various members members of Netcom, and The Well, which is a West Coast internet provider, and the FBI,
[33:17.930 --> 33:20.170]  [SPEAKER_19]: of course, and various other agencies.
[33:20.590 --> 33:29.070]  [SPEAKER_19]: But if a journalist actually takes part in the search, it seems to me that's a step over the journalistic line.
[33:29.190 --> 33:32.450]  [SPEAKER_19]: I mean, reporting is one thing, but making it happen.
[33:32.630 --> 33:40.210]  [SPEAKER_19]: What I'm wondering, the question I keep asking myself, is how much of Kevin Mitnick was built in the New York Times?
[33:40.710 --> 33:47.490]  [SPEAKER_19]: How many articles have we read about Kevin Mitnick that did not come from the New York Times that were based on other information?
[33:47.490 --> 33:57.370]  [SPEAKER_19]: It seems that everything we learn about Kevin comes from one source, and that's a source that's selling a book and perhaps a movie about this person?
[33:57.690 --> 33:59.090]  [SPEAKER_19]: I mean, what does that say?
[34:00.370 --> 34:03.790]  [SPEAKER_06]: Every article I've read, it's always quoted the New York Times source.
[34:04.870 --> 34:08.730]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, in fact, a lot of the articles in our local papers in L.A.
[34:08.770 --> 34:11.830]  [SPEAKER_06]: have been reprints of New York Times articles.
[34:12.770 --> 34:17.250]  [SPEAKER_06]: And, as to your question, when was the last time you saw somebody on the front page?
[34:17.250 --> 34:20.090]  [SPEAKER_06]: I think it was in a 1952 movie.
[34:21.610 --> 34:22.550]  [SPEAKER_19]: Which movie was that?
[34:22.970 --> 34:26.390]  [SPEAKER_06]: No, it was a fictional movie where they show the newspaper.
[34:26.970 --> 34:27.910]  [SPEAKER_19]: Oh, I see what you're saying.
[34:28.150 --> 34:29.690]  [SPEAKER_06]: Sorry, I'm a little tired.
[34:38.230 --> 34:39.190]  [SPEAKER_06]: The credit cards?
[34:39.370 --> 34:39.510]  [SPEAKER_19]: Yes.
[34:40.610 --> 35:01.070]  [SPEAKER_06]: I've been trying to follow some of the news groups, and granted, there are thousands of messages, but there are some people in the news groups that have mentioned that one guy said that his friend had his credit card number flashed on IRC, and this was long before they alleged Kevin stole the file.
[35:01.230 --> 35:04.750]  [SPEAKER_19]: Right, that probably happened back in the summertime when that was happening to quite a few people.
[35:04.850 --> 35:06.170]  [SPEAKER_19]: The file had been compromised.
[35:06.170 --> 35:10.130]  [SPEAKER_19]: We tried to tell people, and Netcom denied it.
[35:10.350 --> 35:15.710]  [SPEAKER_19]: It was posted in netcom.general, which is their local news group, and they denied it.
[35:15.770 --> 35:16.730]  [SPEAKER_19]: They said it didn't happen.
[35:17.090 --> 35:20.310]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, well, it did, because I think I was one of the victims.
[35:21.030 --> 35:29.610]  [SPEAKER_06]: I had my visa number used, and I was very, very careful in using it myself, not doing any mail order or anything like that.
[35:29.730 --> 35:35.010]  [SPEAKER_06]: The only person that had it where it was vulnerable was Netcom, and I got dinged for $290.
[35:35.770 --> 35:45.110]  [SPEAKER_06]: Not a great deal of money, but multiply that by 5 or 10,000 cards over the next five years, and you've got a tremendous amount of fraud there.
[35:45.590 --> 36:01.010]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, it seems pretty obvious, and if people haven't already figured this out, if you use Netcom, if you use a credit card on Netcom, your credit card is out there, so I would suggest people cancel those credit card numbers and get new ones, because, don't blame Kevin,
[36:01.230 --> 36:03.010]  [SPEAKER_19]: this really doesn't have anything to do with Kevin.
[36:03.190 --> 36:03.370]  [SPEAKER_19]: Right.
[36:03.690 --> 36:09.750]  [SPEAKER_19]: This happened a while ago, this file has been out, you're only hearing about it now because Netcom chose to mention it now.
[36:10.570 --> 36:25.350]  [SPEAKER_19]: I don't know what we have to do to get the word out on certain things like this, and Netcom unfortunately has been notoriously bad as far as security, as far as fixing things that are broken, and this is not just me speaking here, this is from everything I've seen on the net.
[36:25.890 --> 36:32.010]  [SPEAKER_19]: We've had cases of all kinds of net forgeries on the use net over the past several months.
[36:32.150 --> 36:42.210]  [SPEAKER_19]: Every single one of them came from Netcom, every single one of them can be attributed to Netcom carelessness as far as letting their passwords get out, letting their accounts be used by all kinds of unauthorized people.
[36:42.350 --> 36:45.170]  [SPEAKER_19]: Now, yeah, these are hackers being upset by this kind of thing.
[36:45.430 --> 36:48.230]  [SPEAKER_19]: You see, we do get upset when people misuse the net.
[36:48.530 --> 36:54.170]  [SPEAKER_19]: However, we feel it should be dealt with inside the community, and we should figure out ways to make things more secure.
[36:54.330 --> 36:59.490]  [SPEAKER_19]: We don't need stormtroopers stomping around, kicking in people's doors, and sending folks away to prison.
[37:00.490 --> 37:03.350]  [SPEAKER_19]: And that goes for all the players in these particular games.
[37:05.050 --> 37:14.810]  [SPEAKER_19]: As far as netcom goes, though, they have potential to be a good service, but from what they are doing, they don't seem to really care enough to communicate with people.
[37:14.950 --> 37:19.790]  [SPEAKER_19]: One case in point I hear many, many times, people trying to cancel their accounts, and they can't do it.
[37:19.850 --> 37:26.810]  [SPEAKER_19]: They say, please, stop billing me, and every month they still get billed on their credit card by netcom after they tell them that they don't want to be billed anymore.
[37:27.210 --> 37:29.390]  [SPEAKER_19]: I've seen a lot of complaints of this on the net, too.
[37:29.650 --> 37:31.510]  [SPEAKER_19]: So you have to wonder, what are these people thinking?
[37:32.710 --> 37:36.970]  [SPEAKER_19]: Fiber, you run an internet provider, or you help run an internet provider here in New York.
[37:37.330 --> 37:39.290]  [SPEAKER_18]: You think you'd last very long if you did things like that?
[37:39.910 --> 37:47.890]  [SPEAKER_18]: Certainly not, and especially not if we were broken into as many times as netcom has and pretended it didn't happen.
[37:48.410 --> 37:50.150]  [SPEAKER_18]: I mean, that's not the way to go.
[37:50.930 --> 37:54.850]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, they seem to have a policy of deny, deny, deny, cover up, cover up, cover up.
[37:54.850 --> 37:57.010]  [SPEAKER_18]: Well, yeah, deny or just not say anything.
[37:57.330 --> 38:03.430]  [SPEAKER_18]: And then the surprising thing is that statement that the supposed CEO of netcom made.
[38:03.630 --> 38:05.370]  [SPEAKER_18]: Netcom helps protect the internet.
[38:05.510 --> 38:05.950]  [SPEAKER_18]: Did you see that?
[38:05.950 --> 38:06.290]  [SPEAKER_18]: Oh, yeah.
[38:06.450 --> 38:06.730]  [SPEAKER_11]: Yes.
[38:06.970 --> 38:07.550]  [SPEAKER_11]: That was hilarious.
[38:07.550 --> 38:08.930]  [SPEAKER_18]: I've never seen such propaganda.
[38:09.430 --> 38:15.030]  [SPEAKER_18]: And now that Kevin is in custody, everyone's troubles are over, and netcom helped that happen.
[38:15.310 --> 38:15.490]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[38:15.670 --> 38:19.630]  [SPEAKER_06]: Let's blame all of our troubles up until last week on Kevin.
[38:19.850 --> 38:21.450]  [SPEAKER_06]: Anything that happened anywhere...
[38:33.710 --> 38:35.190]  [SPEAKER_18]: You know, I had heartburn yesterday.
[38:35.910 --> 38:37.390]  [SPEAKER_06]: I think Kevin did it.
[38:37.530 --> 38:38.270]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, Kevin did it.
[38:38.330 --> 38:41.450]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, I've been telling people my sticky S key hasn't been sticking in the last week.
[38:41.850 --> 38:45.210]  [SPEAKER_19]: Oh, you know, so I think that maybe it had something to do with that.
[38:45.490 --> 38:49.250]  [SPEAKER_06]: Hey, phone rates went up in California on January 1st by a couple of dollars a line.
[38:49.410 --> 38:50.150]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's Kevin's fault.
[38:50.390 --> 38:50.550]  [SPEAKER_19]: It's Kevin.
[38:50.750 --> 38:50.850]  [SPEAKER_19]: Yeah.
[38:51.170 --> 38:51.250]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[38:52.170 --> 38:52.590]  [SPEAKER_19]: Oh, boy.
[38:52.650 --> 38:56.490]  [SPEAKER_19]: You know, one of the last conversations I had with him, he was joking about just that.
[38:56.630 --> 38:58.730]  [SPEAKER_19]: He was saying, you know, they might as well blame world hunger on me.
[38:58.790 --> 39:00.230]  [SPEAKER_19]: I might as well take responsibility for that, too.
[39:01.170 --> 39:02.490]  [SPEAKER_19]: He always had a sense of humor.
[39:02.910 --> 39:03.270]  [SPEAKER_19]: Yeah.
[39:03.370 --> 39:03.910]  [SPEAKER_19]: Is that not true?
[39:04.290 --> 39:08.510]  [SPEAKER_06]: Actually, I think Fox is blaming their poor schedule on him, too.
[39:09.350 --> 39:10.230]  [SPEAKER_06]: Their poor ratings.
[39:10.530 --> 39:12.330]  [SPEAKER_19]: I wish Kevin could hear this, actually.
[39:12.750 --> 39:13.990]  [SPEAKER_19]: Okay, we're going to take some phone calls.
[39:14.090 --> 39:15.870]  [SPEAKER_19]: 212-279-3400.
[39:16.050 --> 39:19.290]  [SPEAKER_19]: We're on the phone with Dave Harrison, is it?
[39:19.430 --> 39:19.870]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yes, sir.
[39:20.030 --> 39:23.430]  [SPEAKER_19]: Okay, and you've been a friend of Kevin Mitnick's since the 1970s.
[39:23.430 --> 39:24.250]  [SPEAKER_19]: How did you first meet him?
[39:24.590 --> 39:32.690]  [SPEAKER_06]: We were running, oh, I hate to say this because I'm a lot older now, but in my younger days, we set up the first recorded phone sex line.
[39:34.370 --> 39:35.690]  [SPEAKER_19]: You were a true pioneer, then.
[39:35.710 --> 39:36.490]  [SPEAKER_19]: Look how that's caught on.
[39:36.710 --> 39:39.050]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, on the West Coast, we were actually using 8-track tapes.
[39:39.750 --> 39:44.610]  [SPEAKER_06]: People would pre-subscribe by sending in so much money for a month, and we would change the stories.
[39:45.310 --> 39:54.190]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, we'd have a number of different stories on the tapes, and we'd change the tapes once a week, and that's how I met, you know, that's how I met Kevin and a number of other people.
[39:54.190 --> 39:59.630]  [SPEAKER_06]: They were just very curious and interested as to, you know, what the equipment was we were using, who we were.
[39:59.770 --> 40:01.710]  [SPEAKER_06]: We just got to be good friends after that.
[40:02.790 --> 40:03.970]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's quite a...
[40:03.970 --> 40:06.510]  [SPEAKER_06]: That was quite an interesting period in my life.
[40:07.750 --> 40:10.450]  [SPEAKER_19]: Okay, again, our phone number is 212-279-3400.
[40:10.530 --> 40:12.050]  [SPEAKER_19]: We ask people when you call in.
[40:12.070 --> 40:22.190]  [SPEAKER_19]: I know you may have various interesting things going on in your lives, but we're trying to keep the subject matter to Kevin Mitnick this week because this is a breaking story, or any of the other breaking stories that we've been covering tonight.
[40:22.590 --> 40:32.530]  [SPEAKER_19]: So, please, if you're calling in with some personal anecdote, while it may be very interesting in other shows, we really want to keep it to Kevin Mitnick this week because this is a pretty major thing.
[40:32.670 --> 40:36.210]  [SPEAKER_19]: So, with that in mind, 212-279-3400.
[40:36.390 --> 40:36.770]  [SPEAKER_19]: Good evening.
[40:37.470 --> 40:38.950]  [SPEAKER_19]: Oh, that line's no good.
[40:39.050 --> 40:39.590]  [SPEAKER_19]: Okay, let's try this one.
[40:39.630 --> 40:39.910]  [SPEAKER_19]: Good evening.
[40:39.970 --> 40:40.390]  [SPEAKER_19]: You're on the air.
[40:41.210 --> 40:41.850]  [SPEAKER_07]: Hi, Emmanuel.
[40:43.430 --> 40:43.750]  [SPEAKER_07]: Emmanuel?
[40:44.090 --> 40:44.410]  [SPEAKER_19]: Yes.
[40:44.670 --> 40:45.530]  [SPEAKER_07]: Hey, it's...
[40:45.530 --> 40:46.610]  [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, I'm glad I got through.
[40:47.330 --> 40:48.750]  [SPEAKER_07]: I'm all the way upstate here.
[40:48.870 --> 40:51.970]  [SPEAKER_19]: You're all the way upstate, and there's no way you could have heard what I just said, is there?
[40:51.970 --> 40:58.470]  [SPEAKER_07]: No, I don't mean to talk about other subjects, but I don't know what the subject is tonight.
[40:58.710 --> 40:59.610]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, the subject...
[40:59.610 --> 41:01.430]  [SPEAKER_19]: Okay, well, it's good to hear your voice.
[41:01.510 --> 41:02.050]  [SPEAKER_19]: It really is.
[41:02.190 --> 41:02.390]  [SPEAKER_07]: Oh.
[41:02.590 --> 41:03.530]  [SPEAKER_19]: Especially over the phone.
[41:04.050 --> 41:08.430]  [SPEAKER_19]: But, do you hear anything upstate about Kevin Mitnick?
[41:09.310 --> 41:09.710]  [SPEAKER_07]: No.
[41:09.970 --> 41:10.030]  [SPEAKER_07]: Nothing.
[41:10.030 --> 41:15.150]  [SPEAKER_07]: In fact, you know, people up here really don't know much about phones and computers and...
[41:15.150 --> 41:17.050]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, then, it's up to you to educate them.
[41:18.070 --> 41:19.470]  [SPEAKER_07]: I'm trying to do that.
[41:19.650 --> 41:20.690]  [SPEAKER_19]: Okay, well, do you need to do?
[41:20.770 --> 41:21.590]  [SPEAKER_19]: You're on the net, right?
[41:22.250 --> 41:22.470]  [SPEAKER_07]: Huh?
[41:22.850 --> 41:23.870]  [SPEAKER_19]: You're on the net, right?
[41:24.030 --> 41:24.410]  [SPEAKER_19]: The internet?
[41:24.610 --> 41:25.350]  [SPEAKER_07]: No, that's the thing.
[41:25.470 --> 41:26.190]  [SPEAKER_19]: You're not on the net.
[41:26.430 --> 41:30.850]  [SPEAKER_07]: You see, our system here, we can only do email.
[41:31.690 --> 41:32.750]  [SPEAKER_07]: Let's blame that on Kevin.
[41:32.930 --> 41:33.470]  [SPEAKER_19]: That's terrible.
[41:33.570 --> 41:34.370]  [SPEAKER_19]: Yeah, let's blame that on Kevin.
[41:35.090 --> 41:35.870]  [SPEAKER_19]: Blame that on Kevin?
[41:36.410 --> 41:44.990]  [SPEAKER_07]: And, you know, speaking of things, now that you mentioned somebody like Kevin Mitnick, you know, I did something with the school computer that...
[41:44.990 --> 41:46.810]  [SPEAKER_19]: That I don't think you should talk about.
[41:46.930 --> 41:53.170]  [SPEAKER_19]: I really don't think you should talk about what you've done with the school computer or the school phone or the school people or anything like that.
[41:53.170 --> 41:56.110]  [SPEAKER_07]: because here at State, I'm in a 315 area code.
[41:56.810 --> 42:00.510]  [SPEAKER_07]: And this is a NYNEX area in Utica, New York.
[42:00.770 --> 42:02.630]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's right next to Syracuse.
[42:03.070 --> 42:05.710]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's in the central part of the state for those who are wondering.
[42:07.650 --> 42:11.910]  [SPEAKER_07]: And the way the phones work here is that they do not have 11 numbers.
[42:12.010 --> 42:14.850]  [SPEAKER_07]: In other words, to dial information, you cannot dial 411.
[42:15.190 --> 42:17.750]  [SPEAKER_07]: You can only dial 555-1212.
[42:17.910 --> 42:18.090]  [SPEAKER_19]: Okay, okay.
[42:18.310 --> 42:24.530]  [SPEAKER_19]: Unfortunately, this is precisely the kind of thing I was trying to avoid because we want to talk about Kevin Mitnick on the show tonight.
[42:24.710 --> 42:27.050]  [SPEAKER_19]: I know it's not your fault because you can't hear us up there.
[42:28.570 --> 42:30.910]  [SPEAKER_07]: Can I just mention quickly, though?
[42:30.930 --> 42:31.850]  [SPEAKER_19]: Very, very quickly.
[42:32.110 --> 42:32.430]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.
[42:32.750 --> 42:33.890]  [SPEAKER_19]: We have a lot of other people waiting.
[42:34.370 --> 42:34.650]  [SPEAKER_07]: All right.
[42:36.810 --> 42:39.570]  [SPEAKER_07]: The star numbers work when your phone is disconnected.
[42:39.750 --> 42:45.610]  [SPEAKER_07]: You know, when you don't pay your phone bill, they restrict your phone from outgoing calls except for 890 numbers and 911.
[42:45.990 --> 42:50.330]  [SPEAKER_07]: You can dial start, like if somebody calls you, you can star 69 them.
[42:51.010 --> 42:56.250]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, that's one way of making phone calls without having to worry about the charge if you didn't pay your phone bill.
[42:56.850 --> 42:57.930]  [SPEAKER_19]: Again, thanks for calling.
[42:57.930 --> 42:59.590]  [SPEAKER_19]: Good to hear your voice, but we do have to move on.
[42:59.710 --> 43:00.290]  [SPEAKER_19]: Good luck up there.
[43:01.150 --> 43:03.210]  [SPEAKER_19]: I hate being rude, but there's no other way, you know.
[43:03.990 --> 43:05.830]  [SPEAKER_19]: I assume everyone else is listening to the show.
[43:06.190 --> 43:06.550]  [SPEAKER_19]: Okay.
[43:06.750 --> 43:07.210]  [SPEAKER_19]: Good evening.
[43:07.330 --> 43:07.730]  [SPEAKER_19]: You're on the air.
[43:07.730 --> 43:09.590]  [SPEAKER_08]: Hello, let me shut off my radio, please.
[43:09.890 --> 43:10.610]  [SPEAKER_19]: Okay, that's a good sign.
[43:10.610 --> 43:12.570]  [SPEAKER_19]: That means he's listening if he has a radio to turn off.
[43:13.730 --> 43:14.530]  [SPEAKER_19]: Very good sign.
[43:15.770 --> 43:25.070]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yes, concerning Kevin Mitnick, I just have this certain inclination to believe that he's probably, you know, the world's most wanted hacker.
[43:25.270 --> 43:26.990]  [SPEAKER_08]: You know, that's New York Times speak.
[43:27.510 --> 43:31.490]  [SPEAKER_08]: We're talking about a fellow who's probably like a prime threat to the new world order.
[43:31.650 --> 43:36.050]  [SPEAKER_08]: You know, all this technology's being used to basically control everybody.
[43:36.570 --> 43:36.990]  [SPEAKER_19]: Uh-huh.
[43:38.330 --> 43:40.830]  [SPEAKER_19]: Or they would like to use it in that particular manner.
[43:41.190 --> 43:45.010]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, like I said, he's a living monkey wrench, and let's put it this way.
[43:45.330 --> 43:51.670]  [SPEAKER_08]: You know, I hate to have to bring this up, but, you know, something may happen to him, and it may look like an accident.
[43:53.650 --> 43:55.090]  [SPEAKER_19]: You really think it would go that far?
[43:56.150 --> 43:57.010]  [SPEAKER_08]: Don't be surprised.
[43:57.010 --> 43:59.250]  [SPEAKER_08]: We live in a world, in this kind of world.
[43:59.350 --> 44:00.790]  [SPEAKER_19]: We do live in a world, that's for sure.
[44:01.070 --> 44:01.570]  [SPEAKER_19]: All right.
[44:01.690 --> 44:03.010]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, thanks for the info.
[44:03.210 --> 44:03.450]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay.
[44:03.570 --> 44:03.830]  [SPEAKER_08]: All right, bye.
[44:03.950 --> 44:04.190]  [SPEAKER_19]: All right.
[44:04.750 --> 44:06.750]  [SPEAKER_06]: Get Kevin a tinfoil hat to protect him.
[44:07.590 --> 44:07.990]  [SPEAKER_19]: Yeah.
[44:08.710 --> 44:09.450]  [SPEAKER_19]: I don't know.
[44:09.850 --> 44:17.830]  [SPEAKER_19]: I like to think that there are some elements still in place that might see to it that justice is heard in the end.
[44:18.210 --> 44:18.890]  [SPEAKER_19]: I don't know, though.
[44:18.930 --> 44:21.070]  [SPEAKER_19]: With all this hype, it's very difficult to believe that.
[44:21.550 --> 44:35.090]  [SPEAKER_06]: By the way, Emmanuel, do you know the last time Kevin was in the federal pokey in downtown L.A., and also, I think, out in Lompoc, he met Ivan Boski and Barry Minco, the Z-Best Carpet Cleaning King.
[44:35.390 --> 44:35.750]  [SPEAKER_19]: Yes.
[44:35.890 --> 44:38.390]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yes, that's the kind of class the feds give him.
[44:38.610 --> 44:43.670]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, they put him right up there with the guys that, you know, are the real criminals.
[44:43.850 --> 44:46.750]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, they also put him in solitary confinement for quite some time.
[44:46.950 --> 44:57.190]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, and I remember when he was calling me last time he was in the federal lockup, they had him in the middle of a room with guards around, they would dial the number and hand him the handset.
[44:58.290 --> 45:01.570]  [SPEAKER_06]: They wouldn't even let him dial the phone himself or use a payphone.
[45:01.710 --> 45:03.850]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's how much of a threat they thought the guy is.
[45:04.010 --> 45:08.230]  [SPEAKER_06]: Now, what the heck can a computer hacker do from a phone without a computer?
[45:08.230 --> 45:11.410]  [SPEAKER_19]: Now, I saw a quote from Sutomo Shimomura.
[45:11.670 --> 45:21.790]  [SPEAKER_19]: This is the genius scientist that is capable of configuring cellular software with his mind and all kinds of amazing things there.
[45:22.130 --> 45:25.110]  [SPEAKER_19]: You know, he's like a regular Vulcan of information.
[45:25.350 --> 45:26.610]  [SPEAKER_06]: And he believes in Godzilla too.
[45:26.630 --> 45:39.650]  [SPEAKER_19]: And he said, maybe, I don't know, he said in the paper that Kevin was not allowed to make phone calls because if he was allowed to use a phone he could erase vital files.
[45:39.810 --> 45:45.630]  [SPEAKER_19]: Now, can someone please take a running jump on that leap of logic there and tell me what he means.
[45:45.730 --> 45:48.250]  [SPEAKER_19]: How can you erase files over a telephone with your voice?
[45:48.390 --> 45:49.950]  [SPEAKER_18]: We could have whistled modem tones.
[45:50.690 --> 45:51.530]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, that's it.
[45:51.670 --> 45:55.290]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, I think Kevin, last time he was practicing, he got up to 4,800 baud.
[45:55.430 --> 45:55.790]  [SPEAKER_19]: Really?
[45:57.130 --> 45:58.290]  [SPEAKER_06]: His parody was off.
[45:58.290 --> 46:00.690]  [SPEAKER_06]: He was at 6-0-1 instead of 8-0-1.
[46:00.730 --> 46:01.590]  [SPEAKER_19]: Oh, is that so?
[46:02.650 --> 46:03.210]  [SPEAKER_19]: I don't know.
[46:03.250 --> 46:07.910]  [SPEAKER_19]: We have to be really, really careful with what we allow to be believed here.
[46:08.010 --> 46:10.070]  [SPEAKER_19]: Some of this is just absolutely incredible.
[46:10.870 --> 46:11.910]  [SPEAKER_19]: Let's go back to the phones.
[46:12.030 --> 46:12.310]  [SPEAKER_19]: Good evening.
[46:12.410 --> 46:12.870]  [SPEAKER_19]: You're on the air.
[46:13.310 --> 46:23.450]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I think one of the things that's going to be dangerous for Kevin is that people in the criminal justice system, they don't know too much about computers and so they're deathly afraid of them.
[46:23.630 --> 46:28.410]  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know that much about computers either, but before I went to prison, I worked as a word processor.
[46:29.250 --> 46:32.010]  [SPEAKER_04]: And so I know how to use some applications.
[46:32.010 --> 46:32.590]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's it.
[46:32.590 --> 46:34.930]  [SPEAKER_04]: I type 85 words a minute.
[46:35.050 --> 46:37.630]  [SPEAKER_04]: That's the limit of how good I can work computers.
[46:38.070 --> 46:41.830]  [SPEAKER_04]: When I went to the parole board, my crime didn't have anything to do with computers.
[46:42.350 --> 46:50.670]  [SPEAKER_04]: But when they gave me my parole conditions, they put down there that this person is a computer expert and he may not own or possess a personal computer.
[46:52.090 --> 46:52.530]  [SPEAKER_19]: Amazing.
[46:52.750 --> 46:57.030]  [SPEAKER_19]: You raise a very good point in that a lot of this is based on fear.
[46:57.030 --> 47:05.390]  [SPEAKER_19]: A lot of people's reactions against Kevin is based on their worst case scenario of what could happen to their credit card, what could happen to their credit rating, what could happen to their computers.
[47:05.730 --> 47:13.370]  [SPEAKER_19]: And I think the authorities and to a degree the scientific community is also reacting in this way.
[47:13.750 --> 47:17.290]  [SPEAKER_19]: They see the net as something which is not totally controllable.
[47:17.410 --> 47:18.530]  [SPEAKER_19]: They don't have a handle on it.
[47:18.590 --> 47:20.130]  [SPEAKER_19]: They don't have a handle on any of this technology.
[47:20.330 --> 47:24.830]  [SPEAKER_19]: And somebody could really mess things up if they were malicious.
[47:25.330 --> 47:33.750]  [SPEAKER_19]: And then they transpose all of this onto Kevin and they say, this is the person that represents all the evil that there is in the computer world.
[47:33.810 --> 47:38.150]  [SPEAKER_19]: So we have to punish him as if he was Marquita's side of hacking.
[47:38.650 --> 47:42.430]  [SPEAKER_04]: And then they can also give the impression that, in fact, they do have things under control.
[47:42.710 --> 47:50.370]  [SPEAKER_04]: There are a few nasty people out there that might be a threat, but thank God we have the police to track down people like that and give them their just desserts.
[47:51.090 --> 47:51.530]  [SPEAKER_19]: Yes.
[47:51.990 --> 47:52.610]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well said.
[47:52.870 --> 47:53.670]  [SPEAKER_19]: Thanks for the call.
[47:54.190 --> 47:54.810]  [SPEAKER_19]: Take care.
[47:56.230 --> 47:56.870]  [SPEAKER_19]: Good evening.
[47:57.010 --> 47:57.530]  [SPEAKER_19]: You're on Off the Hook.
[47:57.990 --> 47:58.410]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, hi.
[47:58.770 --> 47:59.250]  [SPEAKER_05]: I want to comment.
[47:59.330 --> 48:00.390]  [SPEAKER_05]: You mentioned John Markoff.
[48:00.730 --> 48:00.970]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
[48:01.170 --> 48:04.790]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's one of the quotes, one of the things he wrote in the Times that made me really ill.
[48:05.150 --> 48:14.390]  [SPEAKER_05]: It was basically the fact that Kevin's last blow was a fatal blow to the well and nearly destroyed the community that it served.
[48:14.390 --> 48:22.510]  [SPEAKER_05]: Then you read on to the next page, the very last near paragraph, that the act of destroying the county files was a mere slip of a key.
[48:22.830 --> 48:23.110]  [SPEAKER_19]: Yeah.
[48:23.170 --> 48:24.590]  [SPEAKER_19]: Now, that was totally wrong.
[48:24.690 --> 48:27.250]  [SPEAKER_19]: In fact, they had to print a retraction in Sunday's paper about that.
[48:27.390 --> 48:30.230]  [SPEAKER_19]: He did not almost destroy the well.
[48:30.230 --> 48:36.150]  [SPEAKER_19]: It was one accounting file and they believed it was some sort of a typographical error and there was never any threat to the system.
[48:36.590 --> 48:38.670]  [SPEAKER_19]: And these are the system operators telling us this.
[48:38.670 --> 48:43.250]  [SPEAKER_19]: And I happen to believe them because, unlike Netcom, the well has always been very forthright as far as when there's a problem.
[48:43.850 --> 48:44.210]  [SPEAKER_05]: Right.
[48:44.270 --> 48:48.370]  [SPEAKER_05]: But, of course, they had it in the business section on the front page, so everyone probably read that, never read the retraction.
[48:48.690 --> 48:52.010]  [SPEAKER_05]: And, of course, Kevin seems to be this bad guy, the fader.
[48:52.610 --> 48:52.970]  [SPEAKER_19]: Exactly.
[48:53.170 --> 48:53.410]  [SPEAKER_19]: Exactly.
[48:53.750 --> 48:56.770]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, you know, the screaming headlines are what sell papers.
[48:57.310 --> 49:01.170]  [SPEAKER_19]: And if you're able to get a front page story about something like this.
[49:01.170 --> 49:13.090]  [SPEAKER_19]: You know, I was saying to myself as I was walking out of the studio last week, we had the story before anybody did because we were told about it by some other people and nobody in the press knew.
[49:13.250 --> 49:23.850]  [SPEAKER_19]: And I was saying to myself, you know, it would be interesting if tomorrow's paper, last Thursday's paper, actually has a story on this because that will tell us that the Times was tipped off well in advance.
[49:23.850 --> 49:31.530]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, not only did they have a story, they had a front page story and a full page inside with all kinds of background information and research.
[49:31.730 --> 49:33.850]  [SPEAKER_19]: I mean, these guys have been working on this story for quite some time.
[49:33.990 --> 49:35.330]  [SPEAKER_19]: And it goes on even further.
[49:35.550 --> 49:36.970]  [SPEAKER_19]: There's a story in Friday's paper.
[49:37.010 --> 49:38.430]  [SPEAKER_19]: There's a story in Sunday's paper.
[49:38.630 --> 49:40.070]  [SPEAKER_19]: There's a story in today's paper.
[49:40.690 --> 49:43.910]  [SPEAKER_19]: I mean, these guys, this is selling a lot of newspapers for them.
[49:44.790 --> 49:46.170]  [SPEAKER_05]: But they must have their own angle, though.
[49:46.250 --> 49:47.630]  [SPEAKER_05]: This is not simply sell papers.
[49:47.710 --> 49:51.910]  [SPEAKER_05]: They must have their own media-based need to control information.
[49:53.230 --> 49:55.730]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, I guess if you run a newspaper, it's sort of...
[49:55.730 --> 49:57.930]  [SPEAKER_05]: Well, I mean, the net doesn't sell papers.
[49:57.930 --> 49:59.370]  [SPEAKER_05]: It sells different things.
[49:59.390 --> 50:01.510]  [SPEAKER_05]: I guess they're trying to push this to be a business venture.
[50:02.430 --> 50:02.990]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, I don't know.
[50:02.990 --> 50:04.430]  [SPEAKER_19]: I'm not trying to analyze them too deeply.
[50:04.490 --> 50:11.390]  [SPEAKER_19]: I just know that something is awfully wrong here, because this doesn't seem like a story that developed and was reported on by the newspapers.
[50:11.570 --> 50:15.930]  [SPEAKER_19]: It seemed to be a story that was kind of helped along by the newspapers.
[50:16.350 --> 50:21.510]  [SPEAKER_19]: And, you know, it's like those reality-based news programs where they reenact crimes and things like this.
[50:21.510 --> 50:27.630]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, in this particular case, they're kind of pushing it along and making it happen right in front of all of our eyes.
[50:27.770 --> 50:32.530]  [SPEAKER_19]: It's not necessarily important that it be accurate, just that it be sensational.
[50:32.810 --> 50:33.490]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's a good point.
[50:33.930 --> 50:34.270]  [SPEAKER_05]: Thanks, Glenn.
[50:34.330 --> 50:34.510]  [SPEAKER_05]: Good night.
[50:34.770 --> 50:35.050]  [SPEAKER_19]: Thanks.
[50:36.130 --> 50:38.010]  [SPEAKER_19]: Any comments from you, Dave?
[50:39.030 --> 50:39.790]  [SPEAKER_06]: About the well.
[50:39.870 --> 50:41.470]  [SPEAKER_06]: Did you hear they shut down for a couple of days?
[50:41.590 --> 50:43.190]  [SPEAKER_19]: Yes, they shut down Monday morning.
[50:43.190 --> 50:45.330]  [SPEAKER_19]: They were back up, actually, by Tuesday.
[50:45.470 --> 50:48.130]  [SPEAKER_19]: So it was not 48 hours like it was originally supposed to be.
[50:48.130 --> 50:54.510]  [SPEAKER_19]: It was for a hardware change and also for security protection of various sorts.
[50:55.790 --> 51:00.310]  [SPEAKER_19]: Not 100% Mitnick-related, although a lot of the hysteria was Mitnick-related.
[51:01.150 --> 51:07.850]  [SPEAKER_19]: There were numerous break-ins on lots and lots of systems throughout the area, throughout the country, that is.
[51:08.650 --> 51:15.670]  [SPEAKER_19]: So it was by no means restricted to the well, and it was by no means simply because of Kevin Mitnick that the Internet is insecure.
[51:16.490 --> 51:18.570]  [SPEAKER_19]: And it never will be secure.
[51:18.730 --> 51:19.870]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's inherently insecure.
[51:19.870 --> 51:21.490]  [SPEAKER_19]: Yeah, in the way that we want it to be secure.
[51:21.590 --> 51:22.110]  [SPEAKER_19]: It just never will be.
[51:22.130 --> 51:28.690]  [SPEAKER_19]: When I saw the story in early January in the Times, also a front-page story about Internet spoofing, we discussed it here on the radio.
[51:28.690 --> 51:36.330]  [SPEAKER_19]: What's interesting about that story is that apparently that was the first step leading towards Kevin Mitnick, blaming him for the spoofing.
[51:36.450 --> 51:45.430]  [SPEAKER_19]: I happen to think that's a real load of crap because one person could not have done all that in the first place, and I don't think it was Kevin to begin with.
[51:46.150 --> 51:47.770]  [SPEAKER_19]: That's just my personal feeling on it.
[51:47.770 --> 51:52.330]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, all the stuff that was supposedly done, and here he's working eight hours a day?
[51:53.850 --> 51:56.150]  [SPEAKER_06]: He's supposed to be hacking 20 hours a day?
[51:56.270 --> 52:00.110]  [SPEAKER_19]: Yeah, you know, hacking doesn't bring in much of a salary, so you have to do other things as well.
[52:00.270 --> 52:01.730]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, and when does he sleep?
[52:01.950 --> 52:02.850]  [SPEAKER_19]: Yeah, exactly.
[52:03.450 --> 52:06.770]  [SPEAKER_19]: And, you know, when I was talking to him on the phone, he wasn't playing with computers at that particular time.
[52:06.770 --> 52:07.210]  [SPEAKER_19]: He was talking.
[52:07.370 --> 52:08.370]  [SPEAKER_19]: He was doing various other things.
[52:08.470 --> 52:09.430]  [SPEAKER_19]: He had a life, you know.
[52:09.470 --> 52:12.170]  [SPEAKER_19]: He wasn't totally enveloped by all of this.
[52:12.170 --> 52:18.910]  [SPEAKER_19]: But the spoofing article made it to page one, even though that kind of thing has been known about for quite some time.
[52:19.110 --> 52:20.930]  [SPEAKER_19]: Fiverr, did you know about spoofing before that article?
[52:21.170 --> 52:21.810]  [SPEAKER_18]: Oh, certainly.
[52:22.070 --> 52:26.590]  [SPEAKER_18]: In fact, when we talked about it, I had known about it for some years.
[52:26.590 --> 52:28.650]  [SPEAKER_18]: It's certainly not anything new on the Internet.
[52:29.010 --> 52:32.850]  [SPEAKER_19]: So if you had written up something and sent it to the New York Times, they probably wouldn't have put it on page one.
[52:33.050 --> 52:34.070]  [SPEAKER_18]: Oh, probably not.
[52:34.070 --> 52:36.950]  [SPEAKER_18]: No, they would probably say, oh, we failed to see the newsworthiness.
[52:37.290 --> 52:47.770]  [SPEAKER_19]: But now we look at a story here, and it says, well, a couple of weeks ago, in this very same news, paper, on page one, we reported on something that seemed to be a threat at the time, and now we can link it to Kevin Mitnick.
[52:47.890 --> 52:50.270]  [SPEAKER_19]: It seems almost too good to be true.
[52:50.810 --> 52:52.070]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, here's our scapegoat.
[52:52.750 --> 52:53.110]  [SPEAKER_19]: Exactly.
[52:55.010 --> 52:56.890]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, I don't know where it's going to lead from here.
[52:57.150 --> 52:58.870]  [SPEAKER_19]: Any predictions from you, Dave?
[52:59.850 --> 53:03.190]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, we're just waiting for Kevin to get back in town and get in contact.
[53:03.590 --> 53:04.530]  [SPEAKER_19]: What's the story with that?
[53:04.550 --> 53:09.290]  [SPEAKER_19]: I hear the people in North Carolina want a piece of him, and there's sort of a battle going on between them and California.
[53:09.970 --> 53:13.830]  [SPEAKER_06]: I think California will probably get him first, because, well, we are a big state.
[53:14.030 --> 53:15.790]  [SPEAKER_06]: I think we're bigger than North Carolina.
[53:16.110 --> 53:17.230]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, push comes to shove, yeah.
[53:17.570 --> 53:27.810]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, and, you know, I think, you know, if the feds don't get what they want here, they're going to just keep trying to nail him in all the places where they allege that he has lived and, quote, hacked.
[53:29.330 --> 53:31.630]  [SPEAKER_19]: What's important is to keep everything in perspective, though.
[53:31.770 --> 53:40.110]  [SPEAKER_19]: I mean, the people in North Carolina want him, I suppose, for using an illegal cellular phone and logging into accounts that didn't belong to him, but put it in perspective.
[53:40.190 --> 53:42.910]  [SPEAKER_19]: Here's a guy on the run, all right?
[53:43.010 --> 53:49.070]  [SPEAKER_19]: Now, whatever it takes to get on the run, that's irrelevant at this point, for this particular point I'm trying to make.
[53:49.230 --> 53:50.610]  [SPEAKER_19]: The guy is a fugitive.
[53:50.910 --> 53:55.570]  [SPEAKER_19]: When you are a fugitive, you have to do things like that to remain a fugitive.
[53:55.630 --> 53:59.930]  [SPEAKER_19]: Unless you want to be caught, you had better not take out a telephone in your own name.
[53:59.930 --> 54:03.410]  [SPEAKER_19]: You shouldn't apply for Internet access in your own name.
[54:03.550 --> 54:04.910]  [SPEAKER_19]: You shouldn't advertise your presence.
[54:05.070 --> 54:07.870]  [SPEAKER_19]: That's part of what being a fugitive is all about, all right?
[54:07.930 --> 54:15.790]  [SPEAKER_19]: Now, if you want to be a good fugitive, you have to sometimes bend some rules and break some laws, albeit rather minor.
[54:16.850 --> 54:20.650]  [SPEAKER_19]: It's kind of ridiculous to say, oh, look what this guy did in North Carolina.
[54:20.770 --> 54:21.730]  [SPEAKER_19]: I mean, yeah, he was a fugitive.
[54:21.790 --> 54:22.950]  [SPEAKER_19]: You expect people to do things like that.
[54:23.010 --> 54:24.330]  [SPEAKER_19]: Did he rob a bank?
[54:24.510 --> 54:25.570]  [SPEAKER_19]: Did he mug people?
[54:25.650 --> 54:26.730]  [SPEAKER_19]: Did he do violent things?
[54:26.890 --> 54:27.970]  [SPEAKER_19]: Did he steal money?
[54:28.530 --> 54:31.430]  [SPEAKER_19]: Somehow, he was able to get by without doing any of that.
[54:31.730 --> 54:35.110]  [SPEAKER_19]: I think that's an accomplishment in itself in this particular day and age.
[54:35.210 --> 54:41.390]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, I guess the biggest question we should ask is, did anybody see him do anything?
[54:41.670 --> 54:45.070]  [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, did somebody look over his shoulder when he was transferring files?
[54:45.310 --> 54:50.030]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, it's interesting you should say that, because John Markoff appears to have seen him do something.
[54:50.090 --> 54:53.250]  [SPEAKER_19]: Listen to this quote from page one of last Thursday's New York Times.
[54:53.250 --> 55:02.050]  [SPEAKER_19]: On Christmas Day, he broke into the home computer of a computer security expert, Tsutomo Shimomura, a researcher at the federally financed San Diego Supercomputer Center.
[55:02.590 --> 55:04.230]  [SPEAKER_19]: He said he did it.
[55:04.290 --> 55:05.550]  [SPEAKER_19]: He doesn't say allegedly did it.
[55:05.630 --> 55:07.410]  [SPEAKER_19]: It doesn't say that somebody else said he did it.
[55:07.830 --> 55:12.430]  [SPEAKER_19]: This is John Markoff on page one of the New York Times saying, on Christmas Day, he broke into the home computer.
[55:12.770 --> 55:13.450]  [SPEAKER_19]: It's a fact.
[55:13.570 --> 55:14.390]  [SPEAKER_19]: It becomes fact.
[55:14.530 --> 55:21.110]  [SPEAKER_06]: Maybe John has some psychic sense, or maybe he's a member of Psychic Friends Network, and he gets all his information that way.
[55:21.210 --> 55:22.450]  [SPEAKER_19]: See, even you said maybe.
[55:22.970 --> 55:28.050]  [SPEAKER_19]: You see, some of us might be able to verify that with facts, but we would say, you know, what the facts were.
[55:28.230 --> 55:29.610]  [SPEAKER_19]: This is not reporting.
[55:29.970 --> 55:38.810]  [SPEAKER_06]: One thing I hope the Internet community does is, most of the people have prejudged Kevin to be guilty based on what they've read in the newspaper.
[55:39.290 --> 55:40.310]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, he's not O.J.
[55:40.390 --> 55:40.690]  [SPEAKER_06]: Simpson.
[55:41.310 --> 55:43.610]  [SPEAKER_06]: He's innocent until proven guilty.
[55:44.010 --> 55:45.850]  [SPEAKER_06]: People should give him the benefit of the doubt.
[55:46.050 --> 55:48.250]  [SPEAKER_06]: He's already been convicted and hanged on the net.
[55:48.390 --> 55:49.690]  [SPEAKER_06]: And this is wrong.
[55:50.150 --> 55:51.150]  [SPEAKER_19]: Absolutely, absolutely.
[55:51.970 --> 55:57.610]  [SPEAKER_19]: I think as somebody that has known him for so long, you really are qualified to say what kind of a person he is.
[55:57.830 --> 55:59.790]  [SPEAKER_19]: How come we don't hear from people like this?
[55:59.890 --> 56:06.450]  [SPEAKER_19]: We seem to only hear from people that feel they know Kevin intimately when he logs into their system or something.
[56:07.870 --> 56:09.250]  [SPEAKER_19]: Does he have many friends?
[56:09.950 --> 56:11.650]  [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, he's got quite a few good friends.
[56:11.830 --> 56:17.630]  [SPEAKER_06]: I think it's the people that say the negative things get the press.
[56:17.890 --> 56:26.110]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, people that have positive things to say about Kevin and his manners and, you know, just the way he is.
[56:26.250 --> 56:27.690]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, that's not news.
[56:27.850 --> 56:29.010]  [SPEAKER_06]: People don't want to read that stuff.
[56:29.010 --> 56:35.370]  [SPEAKER_06]: That's the kind of stuff you see on, you know, I don't know, the lifestyles page.
[56:35.710 --> 56:37.570]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, not the front page news.
[56:38.330 --> 56:38.670]  [SPEAKER_19]: Right.
[56:39.590 --> 56:50.370]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, I just hope that the details do get out, that we don't stop talking about this, that we keep asking questions, and that we keep discussing it in various forums, both on the net and off the net.
[56:50.650 --> 56:56.190]  [SPEAKER_06]: One thing we are trying to do is set up a 900 number to raise money for his defense.
[56:57.170 --> 56:59.090]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, some of his friends in the L.A.
[56:59.130 --> 57:00.870]  [SPEAKER_06]: area are going to be paying the setup fees.
[57:01.650 --> 57:05.090]  [SPEAKER_06]: The checks are going to go directly to Kevin, who is an attorney.
[57:05.310 --> 57:07.010]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, we're not taking a penny out of it.
[57:07.230 --> 57:14.390]  [SPEAKER_06]: We're hoping to get this done in the next couple of weeks, and we hope that that can get some kind of press, some kind of news.
[57:14.690 --> 57:16.090]  [SPEAKER_19]: Oh, we don't get press, all right.
[57:16.090 --> 57:25.550]  [SPEAKER_19]: I can just, I can imagine the way the press is going to cover a computer hacker running a 900 number for his defense, but I can just see the headlines now.
[57:25.650 --> 57:29.730]  [SPEAKER_19]: I don't want to think about it, but if it's an effective way to raise money, go for it.
[57:29.990 --> 57:36.210]  [SPEAKER_06]: Well, you know, a buck a minute, I think it's a dollar, the way they were talking, it's like a $1.99 call, Kevin gets a buck.
[57:37.230 --> 57:39.870]  [SPEAKER_06]: You know, we have somebody locally that'll do all the production.
[57:40.830 --> 57:42.450]  [SPEAKER_06]: But it's someone...
[57:42.450 --> 57:48.290]  [SPEAKER_06]: that can get the information and just, you know, tell our side of the story or, you know, tell Kevin's side of the story.
[57:48.490 --> 57:53.610]  [SPEAKER_06]: And they'll also, I think, be able to leave a comment or a feedback message to his attorney or to Kevin.
[57:54.650 --> 57:56.670]  [SPEAKER_19]: You've just got to promise us one thing.
[57:56.730 --> 57:58.550]  [SPEAKER_19]: If someone hacks the system, you won't come after them.
[57:58.950 --> 57:59.710]  [SPEAKER_06]: Oh, I'll blend Kevin.
[57:59.930 --> 58:00.710]  [SPEAKER_19]: Yeah, there you go.
[58:01.770 --> 58:04.070]  [SPEAKER_19]: Okay, Dave Harrison, thank you very much for joining us tonight.
[58:04.350 --> 58:05.130]  [SPEAKER_06]: And thanks, Emmanuel.
[58:05.290 --> 58:06.130]  [SPEAKER_06]: It's been nice chatting with you.
[58:06.210 --> 58:06.730]  [SPEAKER_19]: Stay in touch.
[58:06.730 --> 58:08.270]  [SPEAKER_19]: Let us know if you hear anything from Kevin.
[58:08.530 --> 58:09.990]  [SPEAKER_19]: And, of course, we'll do the same.
[58:13.290 --> 58:15.130]  [SPEAKER_19]: And this has been Off the Hook.
[58:15.450 --> 58:23.190]  [SPEAKER_19]: Again, we will continue to keep you updated on the Kevin Mitnick story as well as the breaking story about federal raids throughout the country today.
[58:24.230 --> 58:26.650]  [SPEAKER_19]: We will let you know as we learn more.
[58:26.890 --> 58:34.290]  [SPEAKER_19]: You can stay in touch with us by writing to us here, Off the Hook, here at WBAI, 505 8th Avenue, New York, New York, 10018.
[58:34.950 --> 58:37.250]  [SPEAKER_19]: You can write to me directly on the well.
[58:37.250 --> 58:38.810]  [SPEAKER_19]: Emmanuel, that's right, I'm still there.
[58:39.310 --> 58:43.030]  [SPEAKER_19]: Emmanuel, E-M-M-A-N-U-E-L, at well.com.
[58:44.130 --> 58:45.810]  [SPEAKER_19]: And, Fiverr, how about your internet address?
[58:46.210 --> 58:51.270]  [SPEAKER_18]: My internet address is Fiverr, P-H-I-B-E-R, at echo.net.
[58:51.470 --> 58:53.050]  [SPEAKER_18]: So you're using the echo.net now.
[58:53.110 --> 58:53.990]  [SPEAKER_18]: I kind of like it better.
[58:54.030 --> 58:54.950]  [SPEAKER_19]: I like it a lot better.
[58:55.230 --> 58:55.750]  [SPEAKER_19]: All right.
[58:56.310 --> 58:57.510]  [SPEAKER_19]: Well, thanks for stopping by.
[58:57.850 --> 59:02.390]  [SPEAKER_19]: And we'll see how this story and the other stories we covered today eventually turn out.
[59:09.940 --> 59:11.340]  [SPEAKER_19]: Tune in again next week.
[59:11.460 --> 59:13.340]  [SPEAKER_19]: Wednesday night, 10 o'clock for Off the Hook.
[59:13.480 --> 59:13.730]  [SPEAKER_19]: Good night.
[59:13.960 --> 59:17.440]  [SPEAKER_10]: The funk is ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
[59:18.500 --> 59:20.380]  [SPEAKER_10]: I cut myself while shaving.
[59:21.150 --> 59:22.980]  [SPEAKER_10]: Now I can't make a cough.
[59:23.820 --> 59:25.730]  [SPEAKER_10]: I couldn't get much worse.
[59:26.540 --> 59:28.300]  [SPEAKER_09]: But if I could, they would.
[59:28.500 --> 59:31.200]  [SPEAKER_09]: For me, we're on for the best, expect the worst.
[59:31.880 --> 59:34.780]  [SPEAKER_09]: I hope that's understood, but let me know.
[59:41.160 --> 59:42.000]  [SPEAKER_17]: Good evening.
[59:42.260 --> 59:48.200]  [SPEAKER_17]: In the news tonight, Republicans celebrate the halfway mark of their first 100 days in control of Congress.
[59:48.560 --> 59:52.380]  [SPEAKER_17]: British and Irish leaders lay out a framework for peace in Northern Ireland.
[59:52.600 --> 59:56.140]  [SPEAKER_17]: Will the Serbs and Croats renew their conflict now that U.N.
[59:56.220 --> 59:57.760]  [SPEAKER_17]: peacekeepers are leaving Croatia?
[59:58.080 --> 01:00:02.860]  [SPEAKER_17]: And in New York, City University students take their fight against the budget acts to court.
[01:00:03.140 --> 01:00:05.840]  [SPEAKER_17]: With these and other stories, I'm David Sears in New York.
[01:00:05.840 --> 01:00:07.540]  [SPEAKER_17]: With Verna Avery-Brown in Washington.
[01:00:07.900 --> 01:00:11.780]  [SPEAKER_17]: And this is the news for Wednesday, February 22, 1995.
[01:00:12.660 --> 01:00:15.340]  [SPEAKER_17]: First to Washington for these stories topping the news.
[01:00:16.120 --> 01:00:24.180]  [SPEAKER_15]: Officials in an East Georgia town are negotiating with civil rights leaders after the officials endorsed a ban of black youngsters from local businesses.
[01:00:24.180 --> 01:00:26.480]  [SPEAKER_15]: Tony Phillips has more from Atlanta.
[01:00:26.800 --> 01:00:34.140]  [SPEAKER_03]: Officials of Union Point, Georgia, agreed to lift the ban against the 21 youngsters after nearly a half day of negotiations.
[01:00:34.520 --> 01:00:47.020]  [SPEAKER_03]: The 21 youths, ranging in ages from 15 to 19, were prohibited admittance to the local stores and businesses after merchants of the town complained the group terrorized them and stole their property.
[01:00:47.020 --> 01:00:54.760]  [SPEAKER_03]: The mayor of Union Point endorsed the move and in so doing set off local civil rights groups who charged the ban was racist.
[01:00:55.540 --> 01:01:04.260]  [SPEAKER_03]: NAACP attorneys representing the youngsters say they will continue to meet with city officials to discuss pending lawsuits and possible damages to be awarded.
[01:01:04.260 --> 01:01:10.540]  [SPEAKER_03]: As part of the agreement, Union Point officials did not admit any wrongdoing and did not apologize.
[01:01:11.520 --> 01:01:18.260]  [SPEAKER_03]: NAACP officials are saying for that reason, they will continue their lawsuit against the businesses and the city.
[01:01:18.840 --> 01:01:22.820]  [SPEAKER_03]: For Pacifica Network News, I'm Tony Phillips in Atlanta.
[01:01:23.220 --> 01:01:33.080]  [SPEAKER_15]: President Clinton went to Capitol Hill today to meet with Democrats and plan strategy for the next 50 days of the Republicans' 100-day drive for the contract with America.
[01:01:33.080 --> 01:01:39.020]  [SPEAKER_15]: Clinton says while he agrees with many parts of the contract, there are areas of disagreement as well.
[01:01:39.200 --> 01:01:54.840]  [SPEAKER_13]: It is ironic that here on the 50th day of this 100-day effort that they are making to put in their contract, the single most important issue in the world of them seems to be to cut the school lunch program and end it.
[01:01:54.960 --> 01:02:02.880]  [SPEAKER_15]: The Republicans are proposing to slash the school lunch program and fold the monies into state block grants at 80% of current funding level.
[01:02:03.080 --> 01:02:08.220]  [SPEAKER_15]: House Speaker Newt Gingrich says the key battle for the next 50 days will be in May over the budget.
[01:02:08.440 --> 01:02:12.580]  [SPEAKER_14]: The core question, should we decide we're going to get to a balanced budget?
[01:02:12.720 --> 01:02:15.980]  [SPEAKER_14]: How much are we prepared to change in order to get to a balanced budget?
[01:02:16.120 --> 01:02:17.660]  [SPEAKER_14]: And are we serious about it?
[01:02:17.740 --> 01:02:22.040]  [SPEAKER_14]: Or in fact, do we lack the courage to stop putting debt on our children and grandchildren?
[01:02:22.280 --> 01:02:25.900]  [SPEAKER_15]: Gingrich says the aim is to balance the federal budget by 2002.
[01:02:26.360 --> 01:02:31.200]  [SPEAKER_15]: And so there must be a review of current programs, such as the Corporation for Public Broadcasting.
[01:02:31.400 --> 01:02:45.820]  [SPEAKER_14]: If it simply got its fair share of money out of the billion dollars a year that Sesame Street grosses and the $800 million a year that Barney grosses and the several hundred million dollars that a third program grosses, and you go down the list, if they were simply run as a commercially rational enterprise,
[01:02:46.040 --> 01:02:49.680]  [SPEAKER_14]: that they could in fact be a freestanding self-financing institution.
[01:02:49.680 --> 01:02:56.600]  [SPEAKER_15]: But Representative Peter Torkelson of Massachusetts urged his fellow Republicans to continue funding for public broadcasting.
[01:02:56.900 --> 01:02:59.800]  [SPEAKER_01]: Cable is not a substitute, as many cannot afford cable.
[01:03:00.320 --> 01:03:02.220]  [SPEAKER_01]: PBS reaches 99% of the country.
[01:03:02.780 --> 01:03:08.060]  [SPEAKER_01]: Broadcast television is not the answer either, as the free market will not always support educational TV.
[01:03:08.680 --> 01:03:14.140]  [SPEAKER_01]: All line items may have to take a reduction, but let's not eliminate a key part of our public education system.
[01:03:14.140 --> 01:03:21.940]  [SPEAKER_15]: The House Appropriations Subcommittee is expected to act today to reduce next year's $300 million budget for public broadcasting.
[01:03:22.360 --> 01:03:25.780]  [SPEAKER_15]: The nation's capital is sinking in a sea of red ink.
[01:03:26.260 --> 01:03:27.460]  [SPEAKER_15]: John Hill of the U.S.
[01:03:27.620 --> 01:03:31.220]  [SPEAKER_15]: General Accounting Office checked the financial records of Washington, D.C.
[01:03:31.540 --> 01:03:35.720]  [SPEAKER_02]: It is now clear that the district will run out of cash as early as this summer.
[01:03:36.080 --> 01:03:43.300]  [SPEAKER_02]: In fact, the district could be considered insolvent, since it does not have enough cash to pay all of its bills.
[01:03:43.300 --> 01:03:45.920]  [SPEAKER_02]: And future sources of funds are uncertain.
[01:03:46.240 --> 01:03:53.800]  [SPEAKER_15]: Hill warns if current spending continues, the District of Columbia could find its 1996 congressional appropriation to be zero.
[01:03:54.280 --> 01:03:58.860]  [SPEAKER_15]: Critics charge the district's bureaucracy is bloated with one employee for every 10 residents.
[01:03:59.220 --> 01:03:59.740]  [SPEAKER_15]: But D.C.
[01:03:59.820 --> 01:04:08.220]  [SPEAKER_15]: Mayor Marion Barry says the financial crisis arises from many problems, including the city's inability to tax embassies and many non-profit institutions.
[01:04:08.220 --> 01:04:14.380]  [SPEAKER_15]: In Florida, the family of slain Dr. David Gunn is suing the abortion clinic where he was killed.
[01:04:14.720 --> 01:04:20.660]  [SPEAKER_15]: Gunn was shot to death in March 1993 as he arrived at the Pensacola Women's Medical Services Clinic.
[01:04:20.900 --> 01:04:26.880]  [SPEAKER_15]: The family charges the clinic failed to provide adequate security in light of the death threats Gunn had received.
[01:04:27.120 --> 01:04:29.220]  [SPEAKER_15]: And those are the stories topping the news.
[01:04:39.810 --> 01:04:46.130]  [SPEAKER_15]: With a great deal of fanfare, House Republicans marked the halfway point in their first 100 days of Congress.
[01:04:46.390 --> 01:04:53.330]  [SPEAKER_15]: And the GOP pointed to the fact that the House has passed five major bills of its 10-point contract with America.
[01:04:53.590 --> 01:04:57.350]  [SPEAKER_15]: But Democrats warned the hardest part of the contract is yet to come.
[01:04:57.810 --> 01:04:59.570]  [SPEAKER_15]: Pacifica's Don Rush has this report.
[01:04:59.570 --> 01:05:06.650]  [SPEAKER_20]: Our leader, our visionary, the Speaker of the House, the gentleman from Georgia, Newt Gingrich.
[01:05:11.720 --> 01:05:19.620]  [SPEAKER_20]: Flanked by a row of American flags, House Speaker Newt Gingrich beamed at the Republicans gathered to celebrate the 50th day of the revolution.
[01:05:19.980 --> 01:05:24.580]  [SPEAKER_20]: It's the halfway point, and they declared their contract with America was right on schedule.
[01:05:24.920 --> 01:05:28.920]  [SPEAKER_20]: The House has approved half of the contract with support from many Democrats.
[01:05:28.920 --> 01:05:35.120]  [SPEAKER_20]: Indeed, a GOP handout claimed that, on average, 60% of House Democrats had voted with Republicans.
[01:05:35.260 --> 01:05:38.740]  [SPEAKER_20]: And this was not left unnoticed by the Speaker of the House.
[01:05:38.980 --> 01:05:49.160]  [SPEAKER_14]: For the first time in a long time, you do not have a liberal Democratic leadership blocking from the floor issues in which the American people feel deeply.
[01:05:49.160 --> 01:05:59.540]  [SPEAKER_14]: So when you finally get to a vote, no matter what the secret desire of a lot of liberal Democrats, survival compels them to vote with the American people, not to vote with Republicans.
[01:05:59.860 --> 01:06:01.200]  [SPEAKER_14]: It's very important to understand that.
[01:06:01.600 --> 01:06:10.800]  [SPEAKER_14]: This is the American people's majority in the American people's contract, and we are passing reforms the American people want, and that's why it's working.
[01:06:10.880 --> 01:06:12.580]  [SPEAKER_14]: If I can ask the governor to help me.
[01:06:12.580 --> 01:06:18.380]  [SPEAKER_20]: While five of the ten measures in the contract have been approved by the House, only one has been signed by the President.
[01:06:18.780 --> 01:06:22.160]  [SPEAKER_20]: That one made private sector workplace laws apply to Congress.
[01:06:22.440 --> 01:06:29.280]  [SPEAKER_20]: The President is also expected to sign a bill that severely restricts unfunded mandates imposed on the states by the federal government.
[01:06:29.520 --> 01:06:37.480]  [SPEAKER_20]: But there are some ticking time bombs in the contract, and a reported Gingrich strategy memo appears to recognize some of the problems ahead.
[01:06:37.480 --> 01:06:44.960]  [SPEAKER_20]: In the memo, Gingrich reportedly warns that spending cuts to meet the requirements of the balanced budget amendment will not be popular.
[01:06:45.200 --> 01:06:49.500]  [SPEAKER_20]: The balanced budget amendment has passed the House and awaits an uncertain fate in the Senate.
[01:06:49.760 --> 01:06:53.640]  [SPEAKER_20]: Adding to the Speaker's dilemma is a set of tax cuts proposed in the contract.
[01:06:53.980 --> 01:06:55.500]  [SPEAKER_20]: John Judas with the New Republic.
[01:06:55.500 --> 01:07:12.260]  [SPEAKER_21]: You can't put together a balanced budget amendment on the one hand, and enormous tax cuts, both for the most wealthy, the capital gains tax cut, and for the middle class credit on child care.
[01:07:12.460 --> 01:07:14.380]  [SPEAKER_21]: They just don't match.
[01:07:14.440 --> 01:07:27.800]  [SPEAKER_21]: In order to get a balanced budget from those, you would have to hack off about half of the government, including a lot of the things that the Republicans say they don't want to touch, like Social Security.
[01:07:28.120 --> 01:07:36.800]  [SPEAKER_20]: Of the measures approved by the House, at least two could also face a presidential veto, a crime bill that rolls back money for cops on the street, and a measure that would cut U.S.
[01:07:36.820 --> 01:07:38.660]  [SPEAKER_20]: support for United Nations peacekeeping.
[01:07:38.960 --> 01:07:48.080]  [SPEAKER_20]: As the Democrats mark the 50th day, they told reporters the easy part is over, President Clinton after a meeting with top Democratic Party leadership on Capitol Hill.
[01:07:48.080 --> 01:07:51.440]  [SPEAKER_13]: We have been willing to work with the Republicans.
[01:07:51.680 --> 01:08:01.840]  [SPEAKER_13]: You know, the bill to apply to Congress, the laws that apply to the private sector, passed overwhelmingly in the House of Representatives, with the same level of Democratic support as Republican support.
[01:08:02.120 --> 01:08:08.660]  [SPEAKER_13]: The bill to reduce the burden of unfunded mandates on state and local governments received large Democratic support.
[01:08:08.660 --> 01:08:11.380]  [SPEAKER_13]: So, we want to work with the Republicans.
[01:08:11.580 --> 01:08:18.540]  [SPEAKER_13]: But we have no intention of abandoning the American people to unproven theories and extreme positions.
[01:08:18.980 --> 01:08:21.380]  [SPEAKER_20]: Indeed, the Democrats came out swinging today.
[01:08:21.740 --> 01:08:26.800]  [SPEAKER_20]: House Minority Leader Dick Gephardt blasted a Republican proposal to eliminate the school lunch program.
[01:08:27.060 --> 01:08:34.540]  [SPEAKER_20]: Calling it mean-spirited, Gephardt began the Democratic assault on the contract's welfare reform proposals, still moving towards a vote in the House.
[01:08:34.740 --> 01:08:37.720]  [SPEAKER_20]: And the President also seemed to find his voice this week.
[01:08:37.720 --> 01:08:44.040]  [SPEAKER_20]: He roundly criticized a GOP contract measure that would roll back federal environmental, health, and safety regulations.
[01:08:44.500 --> 01:08:48.700]  [SPEAKER_20]: Such cutbacks would affect the middle class whose needs Clinton wants to champion.
[01:08:49.040 --> 01:08:52.700]  [SPEAKER_20]: At the same time, the administration turned its attention to organized labor.
[01:08:52.940 --> 01:09:00.020]  [SPEAKER_20]: The administration promised to issue an executive order that would prohibit government contractors from permanently replacing striking workers.
[01:09:00.320 --> 01:09:05.020]  [SPEAKER_20]: John Judas with The New Republic believes the President is pursuing a two-track strategy.
[01:09:05.360 --> 01:09:06.780]  [SPEAKER_21]: He's doing two things.
[01:09:06.780 --> 01:09:16.620]  [SPEAKER_21]: He's worried about shoring up his own base among those groups that have been loyal to the Democratic Party.
[01:09:17.280 --> 01:09:22.020]  [SPEAKER_21]: And on the other hand, he's got to worry about the great middle ground.
[01:09:22.240 --> 01:09:26.360]  [SPEAKER_20]: And the GOP appears to be looking for ways to create wedge issues.
[01:09:26.760 --> 01:09:30.600]  [SPEAKER_20]: In Gingrich's strategy memo, the Speaker reportedly attacks affirmative action.
[01:09:31.020 --> 01:09:35.040]  [SPEAKER_20]: Barbara Ehrenreich is a columnist who contributes to Time magazine.
[01:09:35.160 --> 01:09:40.660]  [SPEAKER_20]: She believes the affirmative action strategy may be a double-edged sword for the Republicans.
[01:09:41.020 --> 01:09:49.260]  [SPEAKER_00]: Affirmative action, a lot of people are saying, or experts are saying, that the real beneficiaries of affirmative action have been white women.
[01:09:49.540 --> 01:09:56.160]  [SPEAKER_00]: That is, the wives of white male construction workers and congressmen and whatever.
[01:09:56.820 --> 01:10:05.760]  [SPEAKER_00]: So I think that as soon as the whole, the gender side of that issue sinks into people's heads, there's going to be a little bit, maybe a little bit rethinking.
[01:10:06.040 --> 01:10:08.560]  [SPEAKER_00]: But right now, it's a cast entirely as a racial issue.
[01:10:08.820 --> 01:10:11.620]  [SPEAKER_20]: Don Rush, Pacific Network News, Washington.
[01:10:11.620 --> 01:10:15.780]  [SPEAKER_15]: It's not a peace plan, but it's the framework for one.
[01:10:16.020 --> 01:10:24.720]  [SPEAKER_15]: After decades of bloody conflict and two years of negotiations, Britain and Ireland today unveiled a framework document for peace in Northern Ireland.
[01:10:25.060 --> 01:10:32.540]  [SPEAKER_15]: The 15-page outline calls on the Irish Republic to amend its constitution to relinquish claim to Northern Ireland.
[01:10:32.760 --> 01:10:35.680]  [SPEAKER_15]: And it would allow Britain to restore a parliament there.
[01:10:35.920 --> 01:10:42.340]  [SPEAKER_15]: The document also aims to create a cross-border authority between the British-ruled North and the Independent South.
[01:10:43.160 --> 01:10:46.760]  [SPEAKER_15]: Myel Muratainen is a political correspondent with the Irish Times.
[01:10:47.420 --> 01:10:59.740]  [SPEAKER_12]: Unionists have reacted with great alarm to the prospect of North-South institutions because that involves an assembly in Northern Ireland, but also the involvement of the Dublin government.
[01:10:59.940 --> 01:11:06.600]  [SPEAKER_12]: And as you know, they would regard that as the first step on a slippery slope to a united Ireland.
[01:11:07.340 --> 01:11:16.880]  [SPEAKER_12]: Nationalists, on the other hand, would welcome such a development because they see it as coming closer to achieving their particular goal, which, of course, is unity.
[01:11:17.200 --> 01:11:19.160]  [SPEAKER_12]: Tell us exactly what this body would do.
[01:11:19.440 --> 01:11:26.380]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, both governments want these new institutions to be created to cover a range of areas.
[01:11:26.700 --> 01:11:37.440]  [SPEAKER_12]: These cross-border institutions would look after areas like agriculture, fisheries, transport, industrial development, that type of area, energy trade.
[01:11:37.440 --> 01:11:40.480]  [SPEAKER_12]: In fact, everything but security and taxation.
[01:11:41.540 --> 01:11:53.620]  [SPEAKER_12]: These cross-border bodies would consist of members from the Northern, the New Northern Assembly, which is proposed, and from the Parliament in Dublin, the Dáil.
[01:11:54.420 --> 01:11:58.460]  [SPEAKER_12]: They would work together in this new type of...
[01:11:58.460 --> 01:12:03.340]  [SPEAKER_12]: in these fora to develop areas of common interest.
[01:12:03.940 --> 01:12:12.380]  [SPEAKER_12]: This is the first time that anything like this has been proposed since the foundation of the state, or since the partition began, 70 years ago.
[01:12:12.580 --> 01:12:22.540]  [SPEAKER_15]: Now, the Irish government is going to put forth a proposal basically relinquishing claim to Northern Ireland, and that's obviously contrary to the will of the majority of the people on the province.
[01:12:22.540 --> 01:12:24.620]  [SPEAKER_15]: Can a ceasefire hold under these terms?
[01:12:25.160 --> 01:12:28.260]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, this is all very much down the road.
[01:12:28.640 --> 01:12:38.280]  [SPEAKER_12]: The Irish government has said in the framework document that it is prepared to hold a referendum to allow constitutional changes.
[01:12:38.280 --> 01:12:54.680]  [SPEAKER_12]: The British government has decided to do exactly the same, even though it doesn't have a written constitution, but that it would implement the legislation, or repeal the necessary legislation which established the Northern Ireland state, or to make changes to that.
[01:12:55.840 --> 01:13:00.420]  [SPEAKER_12]: These are issues that will only come about in the event of an overall settlement.
[01:13:00.600 --> 01:13:04.700]  [SPEAKER_12]: We're not going to face a referendum tomorrow or next year.
[01:13:04.900 --> 01:13:12.740]  [SPEAKER_12]: This is at the end of a final settlement that all of these constitutional issues will be put to the people in a referendum.
[01:13:13.000 --> 01:13:14.520]  [SPEAKER_15]: What is a timetable here?
[01:13:15.160 --> 01:13:16.840]  [SPEAKER_12]: There isn't one, in fact.
[01:13:17.680 --> 01:13:28.700]  [SPEAKER_12]: And this is the unfortunate thing because people are quite wary that the ceasefires are more fragile than we would like to believe.
[01:13:28.980 --> 01:13:40.760]  [SPEAKER_12]: And that if we go into a situation where all party talks do not get off the ground within a relatively short space of time, that pressure could come on those ceasefires again.
[01:13:40.940 --> 01:13:46.720]  [SPEAKER_12]: But there is a great deal of optimism that, in fact, they will hold and allow the all party talks to get underway.
[01:13:47.120 --> 01:13:52.420]  [SPEAKER_15]: How would you characterize the process towards peace at this point, given this?
[01:13:52.780 --> 01:13:54.400]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's an evolutionary one.
[01:13:54.660 --> 01:13:57.140]  [SPEAKER_12]: Nobody can say how long it's going to take.
[01:13:57.780 --> 01:14:08.420]  [SPEAKER_12]: There is still a great deal of suspicion and anxiety in the unionist community that the union is being taken from them piece by piece.
[01:14:09.040 --> 01:14:18.860]  [SPEAKER_12]: On the other hand, the nationalist community, which, of course, would prefer to see United Ireland, feel that this is perhaps a step in the direction of achieving their goal.
[01:14:19.080 --> 01:14:21.620]  [SPEAKER_12]: So it depends on what one's perspective is.
[01:14:21.620 --> 01:14:35.140]  [SPEAKER_12]: But all politicians, with the exception of the unionists, are billing this framework document as a major step forward in the resolution of what has been a very long and painful conflict in Northern Ireland.
[01:14:35.440 --> 01:14:41.980]  [SPEAKER_12]: The most interesting thing, I think, now, would be to look forward to see how soon the all party talks can get underway.
[01:14:42.520 --> 01:14:51.100]  [SPEAKER_12]: Because this morning we had a situation where a prominent Northern unionist was being interviewed on a television station.
[01:14:51.220 --> 01:14:55.500]  [SPEAKER_12]: A member of Sinn Féin walked into the station and he promptly left.
[01:14:55.780 --> 01:14:59.880]  [SPEAKER_12]: So there are deep divisions between the communities still, deep suspicions.
[01:15:00.380 --> 01:15:03.680]  [SPEAKER_12]: All of these have to be overcome and only time will do that.
[01:15:03.840 --> 01:15:20.380]  [SPEAKER_12]: If there is a political will on everybody's part to see an end to the conflict and to come up with some kind of settlement that will lead the country away from the violence that has torn it apart for the past 25 years, well, that can only be a good thing.
[01:15:20.560 --> 01:15:24.100]  [SPEAKER_15]: Political correspondent Myel Muretainen with the Irish Times.
[01:15:24.360 --> 01:15:26.280]  [SPEAKER_15]: Reaction to the framework has been swift.
[01:15:26.780 --> 01:15:33.640]  [SPEAKER_15]: Jerry Adams, head of the Sinn Féin, the political party allied with the Irish Republican Army, reportedly likes what he's heard of the plan.
[01:15:33.800 --> 01:15:36.040]  [SPEAKER_15]: He calls it a move toward One Ireland.
[01:15:36.560 --> 01:15:38.360]  [SPEAKER_15]: But the line of critics was longer.
[01:15:38.820 --> 01:15:42.140]  [SPEAKER_15]: Ulster Union lawmaker David Trimble says it's bound to fail.
[01:15:42.500 --> 01:15:45.500]  [SPEAKER_15]: The Ulster Union represents the largest pro-British bloc.
[01:15:45.980 --> 01:15:52.820]  [SPEAKER_15]: And hardline Protestant leader the Reverend Ian Paisley says his people will break what he calls this conspiracy between London and Dublin.
[01:15:53.420 --> 01:15:58.820]  [SPEAKER_15]: Bernadette Devlin-Mikalski, a long-time Irish human rights activist, dismisses the document.
[01:15:59.140 --> 01:16:05.520]  [SPEAKER_15]: She told Pacifica that the peace framework ignores the issue of justice and self-determination for the people of Northern Ireland.
[01:16:05.520 --> 01:16:07.960]  [SPEAKER_15]: President Clinton today welcomed the plan.
[01:16:08.220 --> 01:16:16.340]  [SPEAKER_15]: The administration will host a major economic conference in May to encourage investment in Ireland to boost the economy and further the peace process.
[01:16:17.180 --> 01:16:26.380]  [SPEAKER_15]: Croatian President Franjo Tujman shocked the international community when he announced that Croatia would not renew the United Nations current peacekeeping mandate in his country.
[01:16:26.640 --> 01:16:35.360]  [SPEAKER_15]: Since the end of the 1991 Serb-Croat War, in which rebel Serbs captured almost a third of Croatian territory, 13,000 U.N.
[01:16:35.400 --> 01:16:38.480]  [SPEAKER_15]: troops have been stationed along the confrontation lines in Croatia.
[01:16:38.980 --> 01:16:41.520]  [SPEAKER_15]: In contrast to Bosnia, the U.N.
[01:16:41.600 --> 01:16:45.600]  [SPEAKER_15]: presence in Croatia has helped maintain the ceasefire between the warring factions.
[01:16:45.840 --> 01:16:51.720]  [SPEAKER_15]: But as Paul Hakanos reports from the Croatian capital of Zagreb, many observers fear the departure of U.N.
[01:16:51.780 --> 01:16:53.540]  [SPEAKER_15]: peacekeepers and the