Off The Hook - 1995-04-19

[00:02.940 --> 00:06.980]  [SPEAKER_33]: We'll be at 11 o'clock and at 12 midnight, Earthwatch with Robert Knight.
[00:07.180 --> 00:09.120]  [SPEAKER_33]: We'll have more details on this tragedy.
[00:09.880 --> 00:12.100]  [SPEAKER_33]: Up next, immediately, we'll be Off the Hook.
[00:12.380 --> 00:13.100]  [SPEAKER_33]: Stay with us.
[00:22.930 --> 00:26.050]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yes, the station that works for you needs your help.
[00:26.170 --> 00:30.770]  [SPEAKER_12]: Help to get the remainder of premiums from the last marathon into the mail pronto.
[00:31.210 --> 00:42.870]  [SPEAKER_12]: If you have any time at all during the day, weekdays, please call Lois Henry at WBAI, 212-279-0707, extension 127.
[00:43.630 --> 00:51.810]  [SPEAKER_12]: To volunteer to help us get the premiums out, that's Lois Henry at WBAI, 279-0707, extension 127.
[00:52.550 --> 00:53.530]  [SPEAKER_12]: Help us.
[01:05.030 --> 01:09.590]  [SPEAKER_25]: And the time is 10 o'clock, which means it's time for Off the Hook.
[01:16.930 --> 01:21.170]  [SPEAKER_20]: The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
[01:22.090 --> 01:26.750]  [SPEAKER_20]: I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a call.
[01:27.470 --> 01:32.170]  [SPEAKER_22]: It couldn't get much worse, but if they could, they would.
[01:32.430 --> 01:35.110]  [SPEAKER_22]: Bum Diddly Bum, but the best, expect the worst.
[01:35.710 --> 01:37.650]  [SPEAKER_22]: I hope that's understood.
[01:37.850 --> 01:38.750]  [SPEAKER_22]: Bum Diddly Bum!
[02:34.340 --> 02:35.640]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, what a day it's been.
[02:38.320 --> 02:41.580]  [SPEAKER_25]: This strange day in April, 1995.
[02:42.800 --> 02:44.360]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's two minutes after 10 o'clock.
[02:44.480 --> 02:52.520]  [SPEAKER_25]: This is Off the Hook, Emmanuel Goldstein with you, talking about the latest in high technology, the Internet, the phone system, and computers, and all kinds of fun, outrageous things like that.
[02:53.620 --> 03:02.440]  [SPEAKER_25]: But, if you've been with us for the last few weeks, well, then you'll know that we're engaged in a battle.
[03:02.660 --> 03:03.880]  [SPEAKER_25]: We're engaged in a war, if you will.
[03:03.960 --> 03:04.960]  [SPEAKER_25]: We're engaged in a struggle.
[03:05.180 --> 03:06.480]  [SPEAKER_25]: We're engaged in...
[03:08.700 --> 03:10.680]  [SPEAKER_25]: The Quest for ISDN.
[03:50.620 --> 03:57.460]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, this is day number 29 in the quest for ISDN.
[03:59.220 --> 04:03.600]  [SPEAKER_25]: ISDN is something that one day, maybe, everybody outside the NYNEX area will have.
[04:03.800 --> 04:12.600]  [SPEAKER_25]: But, when they get it, they'll realize that phone service can be a lot more interesting than just picking up, getting a dial tone, things like that.
[04:12.760 --> 04:16.040]  [SPEAKER_25]: You'll be able to use voice data at the same time.
[04:16.040 --> 04:18.460]  [SPEAKER_25]: You'll be able to have more than one phone number for your phone lines.
[04:18.680 --> 04:21.720]  [SPEAKER_25]: You'll be able to send high-speed computer transmissions.
[04:22.180 --> 04:23.020]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah, no kidding.
[04:24.580 --> 04:26.560]  [SPEAKER_25]: And, it's been available for a while.
[04:26.880 --> 04:29.580]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's been here for quite some time.
[04:30.480 --> 04:39.040]  [SPEAKER_25]: And, 29 days ago, Phiber Optik and myself went out on a quest to have ISDN delivered to our homes.
[04:40.040 --> 04:41.520]  [SPEAKER_25]: As is our right.
[04:43.300 --> 04:46.300]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, Fiber's not with us tonight.
[04:46.840 --> 04:48.260]  [SPEAKER_25]: But, I can tell you this.
[04:50.040 --> 04:51.960]  [SPEAKER_25]: He is without ISDN tonight.
[04:54.420 --> 04:57.720]  [SPEAKER_25]: And, I can tell you that I am also without ISDN tonight.
[04:58.680 --> 05:05.940]  [SPEAKER_25]: But, after last week's show, in fact, right after last week's show, I got this phone call that kind of convinced me that they were listening.
[05:06.580 --> 05:14.500]  [SPEAKER_25]: Because, they said, bright and early, Wednesday morning, as the sun lifts its weary head over the horizon...
[05:14.500 --> 05:16.240]  [SPEAKER_25]: This is all a quote.
[05:16.340 --> 05:16.940]  [SPEAKER_25]: This is what they say.
[05:17.040 --> 05:17.700]  [SPEAKER_25]: This is how they talk now.
[05:17.880 --> 05:24.820]  [SPEAKER_25]: As the sun lifts its weary head over the horizon and begins to shine down upon the populace below...
[05:24.820 --> 05:30.620]  [SPEAKER_25]: An ISDN man will come to your house and deliver that which has been denied you.
[05:31.040 --> 05:33.880]  [SPEAKER_25]: Very poetic, but today came.
[05:34.280 --> 05:36.020]  [SPEAKER_25]: Wednesday morning was when it was supposed to be.
[05:36.240 --> 05:37.660]  [SPEAKER_25]: And, guess what?
[05:37.700 --> 05:38.440]  [SPEAKER_25]: They didn't show up.
[05:38.600 --> 05:39.600]  [SPEAKER_25]: They did not show up at all.
[05:39.920 --> 05:42.080]  [SPEAKER_25]: So, 1 o'clock in the afternoon, I called up.
[05:42.700 --> 05:44.320]  [SPEAKER_25]: Actually, I called 611 this time.
[05:44.420 --> 05:48.800]  [SPEAKER_25]: And I said, I'm supposed to have a phone man come to my house.
[05:48.940 --> 05:50.060]  [SPEAKER_25]: They asked what my phone number was.
[05:50.180 --> 05:50.620]  [SPEAKER_25]: I told them.
[05:50.700 --> 05:52.900]  [SPEAKER_25]: They said they had no record of anybody supposedly coming to my house.
[05:52.920 --> 05:55.340]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now, keep in mind, this is the second time that I've been through this.
[05:55.940 --> 06:01.060]  [SPEAKER_25]: Then, when I said it's for ISDN, they said, oh, well, in that case, you're going to have to call the special 800 number.
[06:01.540 --> 06:03.420]  [SPEAKER_25]: So, I called the special 800 number.
[06:03.540 --> 06:05.060]  [SPEAKER_25]: And this person picked up.
[06:05.160 --> 06:07.180]  [SPEAKER_25]: And I told her basically the same thing.
[06:07.840 --> 06:09.500]  [SPEAKER_25]: And she said, well, I don't know why you're calling me.
[06:09.600 --> 06:11.800]  [SPEAKER_25]: This is not really my concern.
[06:11.800 --> 06:12.800]  [SPEAKER_25]: I deal with businesses.
[06:12.800 --> 06:13.720]  [SPEAKER_25]: I don't deal with people.
[06:14.340 --> 06:16.820]  [SPEAKER_25]: And I apologized for being a person.
[06:17.200 --> 06:21.560]  [SPEAKER_25]: And she basically told me to call this other number someplace else.
[06:21.960 --> 06:24.140]  [SPEAKER_25]: Where I got a very tired-sounding person.
[06:24.140 --> 06:27.340]  [SPEAKER_25]: And I apologized for bothering her before I even asked her anything.
[06:27.600 --> 06:30.020]  [SPEAKER_25]: And I basically told her the same story.
[06:30.020 --> 06:36.100]  [SPEAKER_25]: And she said, well, you're going to have to speak to the one person who's in charge of this.
[06:36.680 --> 06:40.020]  [SPEAKER_25]: And, of course, that one person is somebody that I have never spoken to.
[06:40.060 --> 06:42.080]  [SPEAKER_25]: And I cannot reach.
[06:42.560 --> 06:45.640]  [SPEAKER_25]: When I say I, I'm speaking, I'm giving a quote for this person.
[06:45.740 --> 06:46.580]  [SPEAKER_25]: This person has never spoken.
[06:46.660 --> 06:49.480]  [SPEAKER_25]: She's just heard a myth of this person's existence.
[06:49.640 --> 06:50.680]  [SPEAKER_25]: And she says, this is the person.
[06:50.760 --> 06:51.460]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's like the Wizard of Oz.
[06:51.460 --> 06:57.120]  [SPEAKER_25]: So you have to, like, travel across this, this vast wasteland of, of, of technology to get there.
[06:57.360 --> 07:00.840]  [SPEAKER_25]: And then once you get there, maybe you'll actually run into somebody that can help you.
[07:01.820 --> 07:04.640]  [SPEAKER_25]: So, um, she said that she would try to help me anyway.
[07:04.720 --> 07:05.860]  [SPEAKER_25]: And she took down all the information.
[07:05.860 --> 07:06.440]  [SPEAKER_25]: She went away.
[07:06.560 --> 07:09.200]  [SPEAKER_25]: And she came back about 10 minutes later and took down some more information.
[07:09.320 --> 07:09.820]  [SPEAKER_25]: Then went away.
[07:10.000 --> 07:13.160]  [SPEAKER_25]: And about 20 minutes later, I heard the good old NYNEX click.
[07:13.820 --> 07:17.420]  [SPEAKER_25]: And, uh, that usually happens whenever you call NYNEX to complain about anything.
[07:17.420 --> 07:21.800]  [SPEAKER_25]: You get the NYNEX click, usually after 20 minutes on hold, and then you get your dial tone back again.
[07:22.140 --> 07:22.360]  [SPEAKER_25]: Wonderful.
[07:22.980 --> 07:25.300]  [SPEAKER_25]: So, I called the mythical, magical person.
[07:25.520 --> 07:29.500]  [SPEAKER_25]: And, of course, that person was on the phone or away from their desk at this time.
[07:30.160 --> 07:32.080]  [SPEAKER_25]: And, um, I had to leave a message.
[07:32.860 --> 07:34.900]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, later on, the person called back.
[07:35.020 --> 07:36.700]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yes, they actually did call back later on.
[07:36.760 --> 07:39.400]  [SPEAKER_25]: And they said that, uh, there was a miscommunication.
[07:39.540 --> 07:40.660]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now, this is a phone company.
[07:40.760 --> 07:42.060]  [SPEAKER_25]: You know, they cannot communicate.
[07:42.360 --> 07:43.400]  [SPEAKER_25]: They are the phone company.
[07:43.400 --> 07:44.780]  [SPEAKER_25]: They should have communications down.
[07:44.920 --> 07:46.080]  [SPEAKER_25]: But, no, they can't do that.
[07:47.180 --> 07:49.240]  [SPEAKER_25]: So, they said there was a miscommunication.
[07:49.780 --> 07:56.980]  [SPEAKER_25]: And the, uh, the workers that were supposed to come out hadn't received all the information that they needed to go to my place to install the line.
[07:57.600 --> 08:01.080]  [SPEAKER_25]: Uh, so rather than tell me any of this, they just decided not to show up at all.
[08:01.860 --> 08:05.680]  [SPEAKER_25]: And so, uh, the, the person, uh, said that they would try to reschedule it.
[08:05.700 --> 08:07.720]  [SPEAKER_25]: The earliest they could reschedule it would be next Tuesday.
[08:08.360 --> 08:11.900]  [SPEAKER_25]: And I said, you know, I'd really like it if you tried a little harder than that.
[08:12.420 --> 08:16.160]  [SPEAKER_25]: And, um, he called back later on and said that they'd actually be able to show up on Friday.
[08:16.580 --> 08:17.280]  [SPEAKER_25]: Friday morning.
[08:17.440 --> 08:19.820]  [SPEAKER_25]: So, that's where it stands now on day 29.
[08:20.060 --> 08:23.200]  [SPEAKER_25]: Maybe by day 31, somebody will actually show up.
[08:23.300 --> 08:24.780]  [SPEAKER_25]: He actually gave me two phone numbers today.
[08:24.960 --> 08:26.700]  [SPEAKER_25]: Two phone numbers for ISDN service.
[08:26.900 --> 08:29.420]  [SPEAKER_25]: So, that's further along than I've ever been.
[08:30.320 --> 08:32.580]  [SPEAKER_25]: Really, that's, uh, it's, it's pretty far.
[08:32.720 --> 08:33.220]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's pretty far.
[08:33.240 --> 08:34.180]  [SPEAKER_25]: I've got phone numbers now.
[08:34.240 --> 08:34.880]  [SPEAKER_25]: I've got an appointment.
[08:34.940 --> 08:36.200]  [SPEAKER_25]: I had appointments twice before.
[08:36.200 --> 08:39.340]  [SPEAKER_25]: But now I've got two phone numbers and my third appointment.
[08:39.500 --> 08:41.120]  [SPEAKER_25]: So, I think I'm ahead of fiber optic.
[08:41.300 --> 08:42.540]  [SPEAKER_25]: We'll find out next week for sure.
[08:42.900 --> 08:47.080]  [SPEAKER_25]: Uh, we've got a guest here with us who has gone even further than, than, than the two of us.
[08:47.220 --> 08:53.280]  [SPEAKER_25]: He has actually spoken to, uh, higher ups and has found out some rather shocking things.
[08:53.340 --> 08:56.960]  [SPEAKER_25]: So, uh, let me introduce Dave here and, uh, tell us what you've been through.
[08:57.260 --> 08:59.340]  [SPEAKER_23]: Well, my prospects aren't as bright as yours.
[08:59.340 --> 09:09.920]  [SPEAKER_23]: I found out today that above the product manager, I went and called, uh, the corporate offices in Westchester only to find out that there is no executive in charge of ISDN at 9x.
[09:10.340 --> 09:16.760]  [SPEAKER_23]: That after, between the product manager and various levels of support, um, there's a director of operations.
[09:16.760 --> 09:25.220]  [SPEAKER_23]: So, I put a phone call into him in Westchester only to find 20 minutes later after numerous being put on hold and clicks and 9x, 9x.
[09:25.360 --> 09:26.460]  [SPEAKER_23]: You got the clicks too, huh?
[09:26.580 --> 09:26.740]  [SPEAKER_23]: Yeah.
[09:27.460 --> 09:29.560]  [SPEAKER_23]: Um, that he was in the New York office and no one seemed to tell me this.
[09:29.640 --> 09:34.940]  [SPEAKER_23]: So, I called the New York office, spoke to his direct assistant, and I was told that I would get a response back in 20 minutes.
[09:35.500 --> 09:40.400]  [SPEAKER_23]: Um, it's now, what, 10, 10 after 10.
[09:40.860 --> 09:42.920]  [SPEAKER_23]: I, I didn't get a call back until that's...
[09:42.920 --> 09:43.580]  [SPEAKER_23]: 9x minutes.
[09:43.980 --> 09:44.100]  [SPEAKER_23]: No.
[09:44.380 --> 09:46.960]  [SPEAKER_23]: It was 6 o'clock at night and I figured, okay, that's, that's it.
[09:47.160 --> 09:53.700]  [SPEAKER_23]: And, uh, so now I'm, put a phone call in and tomorrow morning I hope to be speaking to the president of 9x.
[09:53.920 --> 09:55.460]  [SPEAKER_25]: The president of 9x.
[09:55.780 --> 09:57.340]  [SPEAKER_25]: And, and what is that person's name?
[09:57.440 --> 09:57.600]  [SPEAKER_25]: Do you know?
[09:57.920 --> 09:59.280]  [SPEAKER_23]: Uh, I think it's Mr. Seidenberg.
[09:59.500 --> 10:01.360]  [SPEAKER_23]: The new guy, Ivan Seidenberg.
[10:01.360 --> 10:05.080]  [SPEAKER_23]: The new guy who was a cable splicer in 66 and rose up to become president of 9x.
[10:05.260 --> 10:05.580]  [SPEAKER_23]: Uh-huh.
[10:06.100 --> 10:08.760]  [SPEAKER_23]: I'm thinking maybe he'll remember what it was like when he was, you know, starting out.
[10:08.880 --> 10:13.080]  [SPEAKER_25]: Because he very, may very well be splicing cables again if he doesn't, uh, respond to some of this.
[10:13.540 --> 10:16.080]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, well, good luck, uh, with, with your quest.
[10:16.260 --> 10:19.380]  [SPEAKER_25]: Apparently lots of people are engaged in this quest, uh, throughout the city.
[10:19.740 --> 10:23.460]  [SPEAKER_25]: Of course, our quest is probably the most publicized right now.
[10:23.460 --> 10:27.620]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, doesn't make it any, uh, any higher on the, uh, priority list, though.
[10:29.260 --> 10:31.320]  [SPEAKER_25]: So, the, the search for ISDN continues.
[10:31.440 --> 10:33.020]  [SPEAKER_25]: Other states, of course, this happens much faster.
[10:33.080 --> 10:34.440]  [SPEAKER_25]: You order ISDN service, you get it.
[10:35.320 --> 10:37.180]  [SPEAKER_25]: Once we get it, we'll be able to play with it.
[10:37.280 --> 10:39.360]  [SPEAKER_25]: And then we'll be able to tell you if it's worth getting.
[10:39.640 --> 10:42.620]  [SPEAKER_25]: But that's something, uh, that's something for the future.
[10:43.040 --> 10:43.940]  [SPEAKER_25]: One of these days.
[10:48.370 --> 10:53.610]  [SPEAKER_21]: One of these days, Mr. Opportunity, gonna be knocking on my door.
[10:53.810 --> 10:57.530]  [SPEAKER_21]: One of these days, I'll read the writing on the wall.
[10:58.350 --> 11:02.790]  [SPEAKER_21]: One of these days, I'll be a spectator in an audience.
[11:03.470 --> 11:07.330]  [SPEAKER_21]: One of these days, I'm gonna run until I fall.
[11:08.190 --> 11:13.050]  [SPEAKER_21]: One of these days, I'll win the lottery and wake up a millionaire.
[11:13.050 --> 11:17.290]  [SPEAKER_21]: One of these days, I'm gonna give myself a job.
[11:17.930 --> 11:21.310]  [SPEAKER_21]: One of these days, they're gonna stop the world.
[11:21.530 --> 11:23.150]  [SPEAKER_21]: And I won't even care.
[11:23.410 --> 11:26.850]  [SPEAKER_21]: One of these days, I'm gonna finally believe in God.
[11:27.730 --> 11:32.490]  [SPEAKER_21]: One of these days, I'm gonna grow up to become the president.
[11:32.670 --> 11:36.890]  [SPEAKER_21]: One of these days, I'll find the woman of my dreams.
[11:37.510 --> 11:42.190]  [SPEAKER_21]: One of these days, I'm gonna find these truths to be still there.
[11:42.190 --> 11:46.230]  [SPEAKER_21]: But if one of these days I'll blow my brains out on TV.
[11:50.450 --> 11:52.490]  [SPEAKER_21]: One of these days.
[11:55.350 --> 11:57.410]  [SPEAKER_21]: One of these days.
[11:59.430 --> 12:04.370]  [SPEAKER_21]: One of these days I'm gonna get in shape, become an astronaut.
[12:04.770 --> 12:08.570]  [SPEAKER_21]: One of these days my fears are gonna fall down the stairs.
[12:09.230 --> 12:14.350]  [SPEAKER_21]: One of these days I'll sell my soul and let them find out what they bought.
[12:14.570 --> 12:17.370]  [SPEAKER_21]: One of these days I'm gonna shave off and
[12:21.070 --> 12:24.110]  [SPEAKER_21]: learn to play and write myself a song.
[12:24.430 --> 12:27.990]  [SPEAKER_21]: One of these days I'll take my conscience out to lunch.
[12:28.710 --> 12:32.150]  [SPEAKER_21]: One of these days I'm gonna buy the plants.
[12:33.950 --> 12:37.810]  [SPEAKER_21]: One of these days I'll have the guts to play my hunch.
[12:41.750 --> 12:43.750]  [SPEAKER_21]: One of these days.
[14:04.200 --> 14:09.080]  [SPEAKER_25]: You know, I'm told when Cop Shoot Cop put that out, there was a line about Ninex in there.
[14:09.320 --> 14:11.880]  [SPEAKER_25]: One of these days, Ninex is going to get the job right.
[14:11.880 --> 14:17.060]  [SPEAKER_25]: But in the interest of radio airplay, they decided to not go with that.
[14:17.280 --> 14:19.440]  [SPEAKER_25]: But see them in concert, I'm sure they'll do it.
[14:20.040 --> 14:23.420]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah, it's 14 minutes after 10 o'clock.
[14:23.640 --> 14:24.820]  [SPEAKER_25]: The program is off the hook.
[14:24.940 --> 14:32.580]  [SPEAKER_25]: And you know, this has been a rather strange week because something happened.
[14:32.580 --> 14:34.560]  [SPEAKER_25]: Actually, it happened late last week.
[14:34.580 --> 14:36.220]  [SPEAKER_25]: And it didn't really happen late last week.
[14:36.240 --> 14:38.340]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's something that I experienced.
[14:39.040 --> 14:44.400]  [SPEAKER_25]: And it's just kind of weird because it's, for me, the first time this has happened.
[14:44.400 --> 14:46.320]  [SPEAKER_25]: And it's certainly not going to be the last time.
[14:46.800 --> 14:49.680]  [SPEAKER_25]: To give you a little background, there was this...
[14:50.540 --> 14:57.920]  [SPEAKER_25]: This, well, a Internet provider known as The Well, which I'm sure you're all familiar with because they've been in the news quite a bit recently.
[14:58.900 --> 15:07.620]  [SPEAKER_25]: Way back a few years ago when they were hosts of the Harper's Conference where we debated computer hacking, a lot of us got to know each other.
[15:09.220 --> 15:22.340]  [SPEAKER_25]: And for me, that was the first time, other than through regular BBSs, the first time on the net, that people debated issues, people that you never saw, people that you only knew as a certain name.
[15:22.400 --> 15:30.180]  [SPEAKER_25]: And you got to sort of attach a persona to these user handles, these eight-character names that just popped up on your screen.
[15:30.920 --> 15:41.140]  [SPEAKER_25]: And for years, after that, I've been involved in various debates from everything from fiber optics case to the recent Kevin Mitnick story.
[15:42.180 --> 15:48.420]  [SPEAKER_25]: And there was this one person, in particular, who really annoyed the hell out of me.
[15:48.480 --> 15:52.380]  [SPEAKER_25]: And I'm sure a lot of you know what that's like, especially online.
[15:52.960 --> 16:05.160]  [SPEAKER_25]: This was somebody that, every time, every time I posted something, somewhere, anywhere on the well, guaranteed, he would post something immediately afterwards.
[16:05.320 --> 16:07.200]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's like he had some sort of a manual meter going.
[16:07.460 --> 16:12.740]  [SPEAKER_25]: And he knew exactly when I said something, within five minutes it'd be a reply.
[16:12.960 --> 16:14.660]  [SPEAKER_25]: And I got so annoyed by this.
[16:14.800 --> 16:15.880]  [SPEAKER_25]: Who is this guy anyway?
[16:16.040 --> 16:21.320]  [SPEAKER_25]: Why does he always have to come up with these banal remarks and nitpick to death everything that I say?
[16:21.320 --> 16:23.580]  [SPEAKER_25]: And it really, really, really got annoying.
[16:24.160 --> 16:26.680]  [SPEAKER_25]: But it also got to be something that I expected.
[16:27.180 --> 16:29.420]  [SPEAKER_25]: Something that I was kind of used to.
[16:30.620 --> 16:40.080]  [SPEAKER_25]: And so, last week, I just happened to stumble upon a brand new topic that had been started on the well by this very person.
[16:40.700 --> 16:47.880]  [SPEAKER_25]: Where he announced to the world that he had to set the record straight because he couldn't hide from it any longer.
[16:48.540 --> 16:52.840]  [SPEAKER_25]: But he felt that he only had a short amount of time left.
[16:52.840 --> 16:55.520]  [SPEAKER_25]: He had been suffering from lung cancer, something I had not known.
[16:55.900 --> 17:01.400]  [SPEAKER_25]: And that he had reached the point where he felt that that he really didn't have more than a few weeks.
[17:01.540 --> 17:04.640]  [SPEAKER_25]: And he had to sort of start saying goodbye to people.
[17:04.900 --> 17:07.400]  [SPEAKER_25]: And I was looking at this topic in amazement.
[17:07.520 --> 17:09.180]  [SPEAKER_25]: It had 600 replies to it.
[17:09.180 --> 17:16.880]  [SPEAKER_25]: And I was going through all these replies, seeing how people were saying, you know, I still think you're a jerk.
[17:16.880 --> 17:20.460]  [SPEAKER_25]: I can't stand the things you say, but this isn't fair.
[17:20.620 --> 17:24.060]  [SPEAKER_25]: I want to debate with you for years to come, for decades to come.
[17:24.240 --> 17:27.140]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's just not something that's right.
[17:27.300 --> 17:29.160]  [SPEAKER_25]: And none of us want this.
[17:29.240 --> 17:31.800]  [SPEAKER_25]: And a lot of outpouring of strong emotion.
[17:33.440 --> 17:37.340]  [SPEAKER_25]: And I was very upset by this because I had no idea any of this had happened.
[17:37.960 --> 17:47.340]  [SPEAKER_25]: And of course, towards the end of the topic, I found out that he had, in fact, passed on about a week and a half ago.
[17:47.340 --> 17:50.580]  [SPEAKER_25]: And it was just such a strange feeling, this person that...
[17:50.580 --> 17:54.100]  [SPEAKER_25]: I'm told I met him, but I don't remember meeting him in real life.
[17:54.240 --> 17:56.760]  [SPEAKER_25]: Mostly somebody that I've had contact with online.
[17:58.300 --> 18:00.560]  [SPEAKER_25]: That this person suddenly has vanished.
[18:01.960 --> 18:06.360]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's a feeling that you're just not used to online.
[18:06.680 --> 18:08.020]  [SPEAKER_25]: You're kind of used to it in person.
[18:08.660 --> 18:12.640]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's weird how you get used to it in person, but online it takes on a whole new meaning.
[18:13.820 --> 18:18.580]  [SPEAKER_25]: So this user ID, it's still there, but the person is no longer there.
[18:19.480 --> 18:21.400]  [SPEAKER_25]: So it was a very disquieting moment.
[18:21.540 --> 18:23.340]  [SPEAKER_25]: The person's name, by the way, is Tom Mandel.
[18:23.340 --> 18:29.660]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, and if you want to go through the well and see some of the heated debates that we've had over the years, I'm sure they're all still there.
[18:30.280 --> 18:43.580]  [SPEAKER_25]: And I just, I wish I had the chance to at least say goodbye, but the Internet is very fleeting sometimes and it doesn't give you any second chances, as I'm sure a lot of us are aware of.
[18:44.200 --> 18:47.780]  [SPEAKER_25]: There was an article about it in last week's Time magazine.
[18:47.780 --> 18:53.120]  [SPEAKER_25]: In fact, it was the article to our readers, because Tom Mandel worked for Time magazine.
[18:53.580 --> 18:59.360]  [SPEAKER_25]: He worked for America Online, I believe, and despite that, he still was a good person.
[18:59.820 --> 19:03.580]  [SPEAKER_25]: And it's something that hit me kind of hard.
[19:03.600 --> 19:08.340]  [SPEAKER_25]: I'm sure it hit a lot of people on the Internet kind of hard, because he was online all the time.
[19:08.360 --> 19:09.560]  [SPEAKER_25]: It wasn't just me that he annoyed.
[19:09.560 --> 19:11.320]  [SPEAKER_25]: He annoyed hundreds of people.
[19:11.940 --> 19:16.940]  [SPEAKER_25]: And that's what a lot of the net is about, just getting people to react, respond.
[19:18.560 --> 19:27.020]  [SPEAKER_25]: And it'll be interesting to see how this is written in the history of the net and how similar things like it transpire in days to come.
[19:27.820 --> 19:29.940]  [SPEAKER_25]: So that's the story there.
[19:30.100 --> 19:31.520]  [SPEAKER_25]: Kind of strange for me.
[19:31.520 --> 19:35.680]  [SPEAKER_25]: I'd like to know if anyone else has had similar types of encounters.
[19:38.560 --> 19:43.360]  [SPEAKER_25]: Speaking of a strange thing, something strange happened in England this past...
[19:43.360 --> 19:44.680]  [SPEAKER_25]: Was it this past week?
[19:44.740 --> 19:45.460]  [SPEAKER_25]: I guess it was.
[19:46.440 --> 19:47.240]  [SPEAKER_25]: Phone day.
[19:47.640 --> 19:49.260]  [SPEAKER_25]: We've talked about phone day before.
[19:50.320 --> 20:04.280]  [SPEAKER_25]: Phone day was this phenomena that occurred where the entire country, the entire country of England, inserted an extra digit before all of their phone numbers.
[20:04.820 --> 20:06.520]  [SPEAKER_25]: So from 2 a.m.
[20:06.620 --> 20:12.040]  [SPEAKER_25]: on Easter Sunday, every single city code had a...
[20:12.040 --> 20:14.600]  [SPEAKER_25]: I believe it was a one placed before it.
[20:15.020 --> 20:20.940]  [SPEAKER_25]: And some cities, including Bristol, Leeds, Leicester, Nottingham, and Sheffield, have entirely new codes.
[20:23.440 --> 20:25.680]  [SPEAKER_25]: And a lot of confusion for a lot of people.
[20:25.820 --> 20:28.780]  [SPEAKER_25]: You think introducing new area codes in this country is strange.
[20:28.820 --> 20:32.360]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, over there, it was downright traumatic.
[20:33.680 --> 20:51.440]  [SPEAKER_25]: So anyway, according to, I believe this is The Guardian that someone left in my mailbox, the simplest way for callers from outside the UK to deal with the phone day changes is to think of England's well-established international country code 4-4 as becoming 4-4-1.
[20:52.400 --> 20:52.980]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's right.
[20:53.240 --> 20:57.420]  [SPEAKER_25]: I remember when you used to dial 4-4-1 to reach London, but now you dial 4...
[20:57.420 --> 20:59.920]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, then you dialed 4-4-7-1 or 4-4-8-1.
[21:00.000 --> 21:03.500]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now you're going to have to dial 4-4-1-7-1 or 4-4-1-8-1.
[21:04.060 --> 21:04.900]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's getting crazy.
[21:05.620 --> 21:17.880]  [SPEAKER_25]: So to ring the Financial Times in London, I guess that's the paper this came from, a caller outside the UK would first dial the code for an international call, which is usually 0-0, but in our country, it's 0-1-1.
[21:18.520 --> 21:35.680]  [SPEAKER_25]: Follow that with the country code, which is 4-4, then the city code, which is 1 plus the old city code in most cases, for instance, 1-7-1 for London, and then the exchange and switchboard numbers, which in the case of the Financial Times would be 8-7-3-3-000.
[21:35.680 --> 21:44.440]  [SPEAKER_25]: So if you wanted to call the Financial... well, let's say you wanted to call the Financial Times 10 years ago, you would have dialed 0-1-1-4-1...
[21:44.440 --> 21:45.440]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, let me try this again.
[21:45.520 --> 21:48.020]  [SPEAKER_25]: 0-1-1-4-4-1-8-7-3-3-000.
[21:48.260 --> 21:58.460]  [SPEAKER_25]: Last year, you would dial 0-1-1-4-4-7-1-8-7-3-3-000, and now you will dial 0-1-1-4-4-1-7-1-8-7-3-3-3-000.
[21:58.980 --> 22:00.140]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah, it's getting crazy.
[22:05.680 --> 22:14.500]  [SPEAKER_25]: Crystal becomes 1-7-9, Leeds 1-3-2, Leicester 1-6-2, Nottingham 1-5-9, and Sheffield 1-4-2.
[22:14.760 --> 22:17.360]  [SPEAKER_25]: These are not soccer scorers, these are phone codes.
[22:18.520 --> 22:26.420]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, that's pretty much all the news of this week, so we'd like to hear from you as far as what's been going on out there.
[22:27.460 --> 22:30.320]  [SPEAKER_25]: 212-279-3400 is our phone number.
[22:30.420 --> 22:38.780]  [SPEAKER_25]: The program is off the hook, where we talk about the latest in the Internet and the telephone network and all kinds of other fun things.
[22:38.840 --> 22:41.660]  [SPEAKER_25]: You know, there's something wild going on outside in the streets of New York.
[22:41.700 --> 22:44.640]  [SPEAKER_25]: I don't know if anyone's walked around, but what's with the phone booths?
[22:44.640 --> 22:53.680]  [SPEAKER_25]: All the phone booths have these weird advertisements going, these scrolling advertisements like it's on the side of the Herald Square building or something.
[22:54.920 --> 22:57.140]  [SPEAKER_25]: I've never seen anything like it, bright red letters.
[22:57.280 --> 22:59.140]  [SPEAKER_25]: I mean, I've seen these things, but not on phone booths.
[22:59.700 --> 23:04.140]  [SPEAKER_25]: And every single one of these phone booths, of course, now can be hacked in a different way.
[23:04.240 --> 23:08.320]  [SPEAKER_25]: If someone can figure out how to get into those signs, they can change what those signs say rather simply.
[23:08.380 --> 23:09.740]  [SPEAKER_25]: I believe all it takes is a keyboard.
[23:10.240 --> 23:14.340]  [SPEAKER_25]: I'm sure there's a whole committee out there that started right now to figure out just how to do that.
[23:15.480 --> 23:16.360]  [SPEAKER_25]: Caught me by surprise.
[23:16.460 --> 23:23.840]  [SPEAKER_25]: I don't know if this has been going on for some time, but I saw about three of them today, and I hadn't seen one before that, so maybe I was just in the dark or something like that.
[23:24.300 --> 23:29.520]  [SPEAKER_25]: So if anyone's seen anything interesting like that, please give us a call, and we can share it together.
[23:30.840 --> 23:32.680]  [SPEAKER_25]: 212-279-3400.
[23:32.920 --> 23:35.500]  [SPEAKER_25]: Also, one other thing before we go to the phones.
[23:35.720 --> 23:37.180]  [SPEAKER_25]: We talked about Bernie S.
[23:37.540 --> 23:39.140]  [SPEAKER_25]: last week in prison.
[23:40.160 --> 23:44.900]  [SPEAKER_25]: Basically, he was arrested, put in prison, $100,000 bail for possession of two red boxes.
[23:45.880 --> 23:47.060]  [SPEAKER_25]: This is in Philadelphia.
[23:47.060 --> 24:00.560]  [SPEAKER_25]: Last week, we told you how we visited him a week ago yesterday, how those charges have been dropped, new charges put in their place for having the software necessary to modify cellular phones.
[24:00.680 --> 24:04.460]  [SPEAKER_25]: Mind you, not modifying cellular phones, having the software to do it.
[24:04.560 --> 24:05.300]  [SPEAKER_25]: That was the crime.
[24:05.740 --> 24:07.940]  [SPEAKER_25]: Federal charges, not local charges.
[24:07.940 --> 24:13.100]  [SPEAKER_25]: And as far as we knew, the bail was being held in exactly the same amount, $100,000.
[24:13.560 --> 24:14.900]  [SPEAKER_25]: We have not heard from Bernie S.
[24:15.080 --> 24:15.560]  [SPEAKER_25]: since then.
[24:15.680 --> 24:19.120]  [SPEAKER_25]: We tried to reach him unsuccessfully, or he tried to reach us unsuccessfully last week.
[24:19.320 --> 24:20.840]  [SPEAKER_25]: Maybe we'll get through to him this week.
[24:21.880 --> 24:24.720]  [SPEAKER_25]: I tried to call the prison that he was in today.
[24:24.720 --> 24:27.300]  [SPEAKER_25]: They refused to tell me if he was still there.
[24:27.440 --> 24:29.180]  [SPEAKER_25]: They just would not give that information out.
[24:29.240 --> 24:30.440]  [SPEAKER_25]: So I don't know what's going on.
[24:31.180 --> 24:34.500]  [SPEAKER_25]: We'll have to just play this one by ear and see what's happening.
[24:35.440 --> 24:39.780]  [SPEAKER_25]: And if we're able to get an address for people to write to him at, that's something we'll certainly give out.
[24:39.780 --> 24:41.620]  [SPEAKER_25]: 212-279-3400.
[24:41.760 --> 24:42.100]  [SPEAKER_25]: Good evening.
[24:42.240 --> 24:42.920]  [SPEAKER_25]: You're on the air.
[24:43.620 --> 24:44.100]  [SPEAKER_19]: Ah, terrific.
[24:44.700 --> 24:49.120]  [SPEAKER_19]: I've got a couple of questions I hope you can answer for me, some of them about the Internet.
[24:49.780 --> 24:50.140]  [SPEAKER_20]: I'll try.
[24:50.200 --> 24:57.420]  [SPEAKER_19]: First of all, can you recommend any good software that would give me or let me access a slip or a PPP account for Windows?
[24:58.260 --> 25:08.460]  [SPEAKER_25]: Uh, well, for Windows, there's, uh, uh, I hate Windows myself, but, um, there's, there's a basic package that most systems have.
[25:08.840 --> 25:10.640]  [SPEAKER_25]: Uh, I believe it's called Winsock.
[25:10.940 --> 25:13.040]  [SPEAKER_25]: And a lot of systems use that.
[25:13.720 --> 25:16.760]  [SPEAKER_25]: And if you're into Windows, it should, it should work for you.
[25:17.020 --> 25:19.180]  [SPEAKER_25]: And you can get it for free from most systems.
[25:19.620 --> 25:24.520]  [SPEAKER_25]: You don't have to go out and, and, and, you know, once, once you sign up for a system, they supply you with the software.
[25:24.980 --> 25:25.420]  [SPEAKER_19]: Okay.
[25:25.660 --> 25:33.960]  [SPEAKER_19]: But you think this would be better than one of the commercial packages, uh, let's say from, uh, Winfax, from Delrina, Winfax Pro, or, you know, one of those other people?
[25:34.060 --> 25:37.460]  [SPEAKER_25]: You're better off working with a local Internet provider who will help you out.
[25:37.580 --> 25:41.780]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah, not just buying something somewhere that, uh, doesn't work and no one will help you once it doesn't.
[25:42.060 --> 25:42.500]  [SPEAKER_19]: Okay.
[25:43.000 --> 25:45.380]  [SPEAKER_19]: Uh, what does ISDN stand for?
[25:46.060 --> 25:47.200]  [SPEAKER_25]: Um, what is it again?
[25:47.940 --> 25:48.380]  [SPEAKER_19]: ISDN?
[25:49.780 --> 25:53.100]  [SPEAKER_25]: Integrated Service, Services Digital Network.
[25:53.100 --> 25:56.420]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah, the reason I can never remember is because it doesn't really flow very well.
[25:56.960 --> 25:58.600]  [SPEAKER_25]: Integrated, yeah, it still does nothing for me.
[25:59.100 --> 25:59.460]  [SPEAKER_19]: Okay.
[25:59.800 --> 26:03.760]  [SPEAKER_19]: And now what is ISDN going to do for us that, let's say, parts can't?
[26:03.960 --> 26:07.300]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, it's going to actually revolutionize the way phones work.
[26:07.560 --> 26:10.240]  [SPEAKER_25]: Um, you'll be able to do many things at once.
[26:10.300 --> 26:21.200]  [SPEAKER_25]: You'll be able to have a computer, for instance, set up at all times in your home, uh, at a very high speed without having to, to get all this extra equipment that you would need.
[26:21.280 --> 26:26.780]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now, without having to have a dedicated phone line, you'll be able to have faxes sent at the same time that you're on the phone.
[26:27.360 --> 26:28.320]  [SPEAKER_25]: All kinds of things.
[26:28.480 --> 26:34.680]  [SPEAKER_25]: Basically, just imagine all the communications technologies tied together into one neat little package.
[26:34.680 --> 26:36.420]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's kind of what they're thinking.
[26:36.760 --> 26:37.200]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay.
[26:37.200 --> 26:41.600]  [SPEAKER_25]: We haven't yet seen it here because, uh, well, certain things are kind of slow to be implemented.
[26:41.760 --> 26:44.900]  [SPEAKER_25]: But that's, you know, in a nutshell, that's what it's supposed to be all about.
[26:45.200 --> 26:45.580]  [SPEAKER_19]: Terrific.
[26:45.800 --> 26:47.280]  [SPEAKER_19]: Two last ones, and I'll make these quick.
[26:47.380 --> 26:47.460]  [SPEAKER_19]: Okay.
[26:47.460 --> 26:48.380]  [SPEAKER_19]: I know you've got a lot of other callers.
[26:48.620 --> 26:52.700]  [SPEAKER_19]: I saw an ad for some modems that were faster than 28.8.
[26:52.960 --> 26:54.380]  [SPEAKER_19]: Then they seemed to disappear.
[26:54.680 --> 26:59.300]  [SPEAKER_19]: I'm wondering, were these things pulled back because of technical reasons for the FCC or what?
[26:59.300 --> 27:02.460]  [SPEAKER_19]: And the last one is, what is the Gutenberg Project?
[27:03.180 --> 27:05.380]  [SPEAKER_25]: Uh, I can't help you with the Gutenberg Project.
[27:05.860 --> 27:07.440]  [SPEAKER_25]: Anyone here know about the Gutenberg Project?
[27:08.040 --> 27:09.960]  [SPEAKER_25]: No, we're drawing blanks on that all around.
[27:10.080 --> 27:21.440]  [SPEAKER_25]: But as far as the modems, I do know that, um, that with compression, uh, and, and various, uh, trickery like that, uh, speeds of higher than 28.8, uh, can be, can be advertised.
[27:21.880 --> 27:27.200]  [SPEAKER_25]: I've never seen a modem at higher than 28.8, though, uh, as, as the base speed.
[27:28.320 --> 27:34.780]  [SPEAKER_25]: I've, I've never actually seen, I mean, the next step would probably be 56K, and that's, uh, you know, that requires a dedicated line of sorts.
[27:35.780 --> 27:35.900]  [SPEAKER_25]: Mm-hmm.
[27:35.900 --> 27:38.960]  [SPEAKER_25]: So if you, if you have further information on that, forward it, uh, forward it over.
[27:39.020 --> 27:41.640]  [SPEAKER_25]: I'd like to see a copy of the ad so I, I could know exactly what to look into.
[27:42.360 --> 27:46.180]  [SPEAKER_19]: No, if I, uh, if I had it, believe me, I would, you know, that wouldn't have been the problem.
[27:46.340 --> 27:52.200]  [SPEAKER_19]: But, uh, like I said, I just saw it in one, uh, dealer magazine, and then I don't see the ad anymore.
[27:52.200 --> 27:54.100]  [SPEAKER_25]: It probably was a creative use of words.
[27:54.240 --> 27:55.160]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's, that's the only thing I can think of.
[27:55.160 --> 27:57.100]  [SPEAKER_19]: No, no, no, there was actually some hard numbers there.
[27:57.280 --> 28:01.180]  [SPEAKER_19]: It wasn't, uh, you know, they said the new, uh, standard is here.
[28:01.180 --> 28:04.160]  [SPEAKER_19]: I can't remember who the heck did it, because I was saying to myself, well, shoot.
[28:04.400 --> 28:10.280]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, keep in mind, it's only a standard if more than one, more than one side uses it at the same time.
[28:10.600 --> 28:11.780]  [SPEAKER_19]: Yeah, well, that I know.
[28:12.300 --> 28:13.440]  [SPEAKER_19]: All right, thanks a lot.
[28:13.560 --> 28:14.180]  [SPEAKER_25]: All right, take care.
[28:14.360 --> 28:14.540]  [SPEAKER_19]: Bye-bye.
[28:15.460 --> 28:16.880]  [SPEAKER_25]: 212-279-3400.
[28:19.460 --> 28:20.480]  [SPEAKER_25]: Good evening, you're on the air.
[28:20.480 --> 28:21.740]  [SPEAKER_31]: Yeah, I have a question for you.
[28:21.840 --> 28:31.500]  [SPEAKER_31]: I have a problem with my phone, and my, uh, radio is coming through, and NYNEX told me to call the FCC, because I couldn't put the presser on, et cetera, et cetera.
[28:31.940 --> 28:33.620]  [SPEAKER_31]: Any advice am I going to be able to give me?
[28:34.280 --> 28:37.440]  [SPEAKER_25]: Uh, well, now, are you receiving interference from a radio station?
[28:37.600 --> 28:43.560]  [SPEAKER_31]: Yeah, like 1230 AM, something like that, you know, with high-end frequency, like a, you know, kind of weird AM station.
[28:43.560 --> 28:46.020]  [SPEAKER_25]: So, you're getting, are you near an AM transmitter?
[28:46.400 --> 29:00.380]  [SPEAKER_31]: No, it's definitely, it's not, I'm not really, I'm in Brooklyn, Williamsburg, and, uh, it's definitely not, um, it's caused, I guess, by, there's two lines being split into, you know, one line being split into two, but usually there's a problem when you have the mobile phone,
[29:00.500 --> 29:01.280]  [SPEAKER_31]: you know, the...
[29:01.280 --> 29:05.140]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, let me ask you this, uh, do you know where the phone line comes into your place?
[29:05.920 --> 29:06.880]  [SPEAKER_31]: Yeah, right side of my window.
[29:07.140 --> 29:11.380]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, where, where the phone company actually goes up to, you know, where that, where that point is?
[29:11.380 --> 29:14.660]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, can you plug a phone into that particular point?
[29:15.720 --> 29:21.260]  [SPEAKER_31]: Um, I can't see it because it's, like, four stories below me and it's, like, in a seal-off area.
[29:21.620 --> 29:29.500]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, what you need to do is, um, is somehow get access to that, plug a phone into that area, see if you have the same problem there.
[29:29.500 --> 29:33.660]  [SPEAKER_25]: If you do, it's definitely the phone company's problem and they have to deal with it.
[29:33.700 --> 29:37.040]  [SPEAKER_25]: If it's something that's taking place because of the wiring inside your house...
[29:37.040 --> 29:41.140]  [SPEAKER_31]: Yeah, they, they try to rewire, you know, a new line from the, uh, from the CEO.
[29:41.140 --> 29:43.120]  [SPEAKER_31]: No, and they would, they said they didn't solve the problem.
[29:43.680 --> 29:46.020]  [SPEAKER_25]: Uh, is yours the only phone line that's getting this problem?
[29:46.280 --> 29:53.460]  [SPEAKER_31]: No, they have repeated, uh, other problems with other phones in the area, but they said it's not going to take, like, two or three years until they get the fiber optics to be laid down.
[29:53.580 --> 29:54.460]  [SPEAKER_31]: But I don't believe that.
[29:54.460 --> 29:59.320]  [SPEAKER_31]: But, but, but what bothered me was I had, their, their, their response was actually called the FCC by the radio station.
[29:59.800 --> 30:03.780]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, I mean, that's, it's not, it's not your responsibility to do their work for them.
[30:04.460 --> 30:04.680]  Yeah.
[30:04.980 --> 30:06.240]  [SPEAKER_25]: I mean, it's, it's their problem.
[30:06.400 --> 30:13.520]  [SPEAKER_25]: And what I would do is get together with a bunch of other people and complain about the same thing and make it public because this is something the phone company has to deal with.
[30:14.480 --> 30:18.240]  [SPEAKER_25]: Especially if it's, if it's taking place with their wiring, which it sounds like it is if other people have their phone.
[30:18.260 --> 30:20.940]  [SPEAKER_31]: Yeah, I mean, it's not like, because if it's my phone race, it's their wiring.
[30:21.080 --> 30:25.000]  [SPEAKER_31]: They have, they refuse to send the money to put extra wiring in to my, uh, my neighborhood.
[30:25.340 --> 30:25.600]  [SPEAKER_25]: Uh-huh.
[30:25.720 --> 30:28.760]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, then, uh, definitely contact the Public Service Commission.
[30:28.940 --> 30:32.200]  [SPEAKER_25]: You'll know they didn't tell you to call them, but those are the people I would suggest you call.
[30:32.320 --> 30:33.740]  [SPEAKER_25]: The number's in the front of your phone book.
[30:34.200 --> 30:37.600]  [SPEAKER_25]: Public Service Commission, don't even stop at the President's hotline, or helpline, rather.
[30:48.240 --> 30:48.880]  [SPEAKER_25]: All right, great.
[30:49.180 --> 30:49.420]  [SPEAKER_25]: All right?
[30:49.560 --> 30:49.980]  [SPEAKER_25]: Thanks a lot.
[30:50.120 --> 30:50.580]  [SPEAKER_25]: All right, take care.
[30:51.920 --> 30:52.880]  [SPEAKER_25]: That happens a lot.
[30:53.060 --> 30:57.660]  [SPEAKER_25]: You think that you, you're the only person with these weird problems, but there are actually quite a few people out there.
[30:57.720 --> 31:04.920]  [SPEAKER_25]: For instance, uh, you get these weird calls on your phone bill that you know you didn't make, but they're on your phone bill.
[31:05.020 --> 31:06.040]  [SPEAKER_25]: They were made from your phone line.
[31:06.140 --> 31:08.440]  [SPEAKER_25]: That means that someone had to do it from your house.
[31:08.440 --> 31:10.220]  [SPEAKER_25]: You're guilty, even though you live by yourself.
[31:10.380 --> 31:11.240]  [SPEAKER_25]: Somehow you did this.
[31:11.460 --> 31:13.100]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's what the phone company has you believing.
[31:13.840 --> 31:16.680]  [SPEAKER_25]: But, uh, in actuality, this happens all the time.
[31:16.680 --> 31:18.340]  [SPEAKER_25]: It happens in many different ways.
[31:18.480 --> 31:19.920]  [SPEAKER_25]: The phone company crosses wires.
[31:20.100 --> 31:22.940]  [SPEAKER_25]: The phone line shows up in two different houses at the same time.
[31:23.260 --> 31:27.860]  [SPEAKER_25]: A linesman climbs up on a telephone pole and decides to go crazy with some 900 numbers.
[31:28.160 --> 31:34.020]  [SPEAKER_25]: Someone goes into the basement of your apartment building and plugs into the panel of where all the phone lines come in.
[31:34.080 --> 31:35.960]  [SPEAKER_25]: Phone lines go through other people's homes sometimes.
[31:36.600 --> 31:39.080]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's very, very easy to do this.
[31:39.300 --> 31:42.160]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's very easy for anything to go wrong with your phone line.
[31:42.260 --> 31:43.600]  [SPEAKER_25]: Phone lines are not very secure.
[31:43.600 --> 31:47.760]  [SPEAKER_25]: So, if you think something is strange on your phone line, it probably is.
[31:48.320 --> 31:51.780]  [SPEAKER_25]: So, uh, don't assume that you're wrong just because the phone company tells you you are.
[31:52.140 --> 31:52.720]  [SPEAKER_25]: Good evening.
[31:52.840 --> 31:53.180]  [SPEAKER_25]: You're on the air.
[31:54.160 --> 31:54.400]  [SPEAKER_32]: What?
[31:54.620 --> 31:55.220]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yes, go ahead.
[31:55.620 --> 31:58.220]  [SPEAKER_32]: Oh, uh, well, I just found something very interesting.
[31:58.400 --> 32:00.320]  [SPEAKER_32]: I posted to Alt.2600.
[32:00.320 --> 32:03.520]  [SPEAKER_32]: And by the way, uh, congratulations on getting 2600.com up.
[32:03.760 --> 32:04.740]  [SPEAKER_25]: Oh, yeah, thank you.
[32:04.800 --> 32:05.280]  [SPEAKER_25]: Thank you very much.
[32:05.460 --> 32:10.580]  [SPEAKER_32]: Uh, anyway, um, and I got this email from this guy, uh, Cracker...
[32:10.580 --> 32:12.340]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah, Cracker, Cracker Buster, right.
[32:12.740 --> 32:14.220]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, let me explain what that's all about.
[32:14.520 --> 32:30.360]  [SPEAKER_25]: Um, uh, everybody who posted on the Alt.2600 USENET News Group, and this is about the second or third time this has happened, received mail back from this fake email address called Cracker Buster at, uh, what is it, polizei.de, which I think is the German word for police,
[32:30.480 --> 32:32.300]  [SPEAKER_25]: and DE, of course, means that it was in Germany.
[32:32.520 --> 32:33.640]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, that's not a real site.
[32:33.640 --> 32:35.420]  [SPEAKER_25]: It was a forged email address.
[32:35.720 --> 32:43.840]  [SPEAKER_25]: What apparently happened was someone was, was running some kind of an automated process on our favorite system, which is, guess what, NetCom.
[32:44.480 --> 32:53.340]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yes, NetCom once again has, uh, has allowed its system to be, uh, accessed by people that, uh, don't have any respect for the net.
[32:53.740 --> 33:04.080]  [SPEAKER_25]: And they sent email to, um, back to the person that posted the message to that person, person, system administrator, and, uh, also to me three times, which is kind of funny.
[33:04.620 --> 33:12.160]  [SPEAKER_25]: We wound up, uh, getting, I think, uh, 15,000 messages in, uh, in 24 hours, which was, was interesting to see all those messages pile in.
[33:12.240 --> 33:14.980]  [SPEAKER_25]: It was the first real test of our, uh, 2600.com system.
[33:15.420 --> 33:16.800]  [SPEAKER_25]: And, uh, it handled it very well.
[33:16.880 --> 33:18.620]  [SPEAKER_25]: They were very easy to get rid of very quickly.
[33:18.960 --> 33:24.340]  [SPEAKER_25]: So it, it didn't cause much of a problem, but it certainly caused a, uh, a lot of discussion on the net.
[33:24.880 --> 33:41.500]  [SPEAKER_25]: Um, what I, what I basically suggest people do is contact NetCom, contact Root at NetCom, Admin at NetCom, Postmaster at NetCom, call NetCom there, I think in San Jose, California, area code 408, I don't know the rest of the number, and, uh, complain and do what you,
[33:41.540 --> 33:44.720]  [SPEAKER_25]: whatever you have to do to see that NetCom does not keep disrupting the net.
[33:44.840 --> 33:46.340]  [SPEAKER_25]: Because that's, that's where I really place the blame.
[33:46.460 --> 33:49.800]  [SPEAKER_25]: People are able to do this so easily, and it always comes from NetCom.
[33:49.980 --> 33:51.340]  [SPEAKER_25]: Obviously, NetCom is the problem.
[33:51.340 --> 34:00.500]  [SPEAKER_25]: Um, unlike the well, unlike panics, unlike the, the decent systems that are around that explain what the problems are, what the insecurities are, NetCom never says anything.
[34:00.680 --> 34:02.700]  [SPEAKER_25]: They are completely silent on all these issues.
[34:02.900 --> 34:07.220]  [SPEAKER_25]: Uh, we've, we've constantly been badgering them to, uh, to tell us what's going on.
[34:07.360 --> 34:09.240]  [SPEAKER_25]: How do people get access to your system like this?
[34:09.320 --> 34:10.440]  [SPEAKER_25]: What are you doing to prevent it?
[34:11.040 --> 34:18.180]  [SPEAKER_25]: Instead, they come up with these high and, and, and mighty, uh, statements about how they helped to capture, uh, Kevin Mitnick and keep the Internet safe for, uh, for everybody.
[34:18.680 --> 34:20.340]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, which is, of course, complete nonsense.
[34:21.000 --> 34:23.340]  [SPEAKER_25]: So, uh, oops, I turned up the wrong, uh, volume.
[34:23.440 --> 34:23.760]  [SPEAKER_25]: Are you still there?
[34:24.120 --> 34:24.240]  Yeah.
[34:24.440 --> 34:25.880]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, so does that make sense to you?
[34:26.020 --> 34:26.480]  [SPEAKER_32]: Yeah, okay.
[34:26.800 --> 34:29.560]  [SPEAKER_25]: All right, so, uh, don't worry, don't, uh, panic or anything like that.
[34:29.640 --> 34:32.000]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's not the, uh, German police out to get you or anything like that.
[34:32.520 --> 34:36.500]  [SPEAKER_25]: Uh, that certainly caused a lot of, uh, a lot of panic, I guess.
[34:37.040 --> 34:49.740]  [SPEAKER_25]: Uh, what's particularly funny is that, um, uh, it's, it's, it's made the traffic on all 2,600, I think, triple, which, if the person's intent was to, was to stop traffic or, or make people afraid, it had the exact opposite effect.
[34:50.120 --> 34:53.100]  [SPEAKER_25]: And, of course, now, uh, more people are flocking to that news group than ever.
[34:53.760 --> 34:56.860]  [SPEAKER_25]: So, um, that's something that, uh, I guess people need to know about.
[34:57.100 --> 35:03.860]  [SPEAKER_25]: So, uh, just delete the message and send mail to, uh, to, uh, netcom and complain and find out what's going on.
[35:04.600 --> 35:06.040]  [SPEAKER_25]: 212-279-3400.
[35:06.360 --> 35:07.060]  [SPEAKER_25]: Good evening, you're on.
[35:08.400 --> 35:09.000]  [SPEAKER_25]: Go ahead.
[35:09.600 --> 35:12.280]  [SPEAKER_32]: Uh, yeah, um...
[35:13.080 --> 35:18.420]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, well, I imagine, uh, you need to get your wire fixed on your phone, and, uh, maybe a trip to Radio Shack is in order.
[35:18.520 --> 35:19.140]  [SPEAKER_25]: Good evening, you're on.
[35:19.860 --> 35:20.220]  [SPEAKER_25]: Oh?
[35:20.420 --> 35:21.040]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yes, go ahead.
[35:21.260 --> 35:21.800]  [SPEAKER_18]: Hi, how you doing?
[35:21.980 --> 35:22.800]  [SPEAKER_25]: I'm fine, how are you?
[35:23.200 --> 35:24.300]  [SPEAKER_18]: Uh, not much, actually.
[35:24.540 --> 35:33.980]  [SPEAKER_18]: I was wondering, um, I don't know how much of, you know, Mac folks you guys have done at the happy little offices of 2600, Inc., um, but they're in the May issue of Mac User.
[35:34.100 --> 35:35.420]  [SPEAKER_18]: There's an article about ISDN.
[35:35.820 --> 35:36.180]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay.
[35:36.920 --> 35:47.820]  [SPEAKER_18]: And they seem to really, at least the person writing the article named Shelly Brisbane seems to, uh, think that NYNEX is all, uh, well, happy and jolly as far as their ISDN installations.
[35:48.160 --> 35:50.660]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, does this person live anywhere near NYNEX territory?
[35:50.880 --> 35:51.380]  [SPEAKER_18]: I don't know.
[35:51.500 --> 36:06.040]  [SPEAKER_18]: It doesn't really say where she lives, but, um, in the subheading ramping up to the fast track, she says about how, quote, veterans of 40 ISDN installations give Pacific Bell and NYNEX high marks for the work they're doing with ISDN.
[36:07.300 --> 36:07.780]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah.
[36:08.060 --> 36:13.000]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, uh, it just goes to show how, uh, you know, any, any slant on the news can make it out there.
[36:13.120 --> 36:21.420]  [SPEAKER_25]: But I can tell you, ask anybody that has dealt with NYNEX, and I mean service providers, Internet service providers, uh, businesses, residences.
[36:22.000 --> 36:25.240]  [SPEAKER_25]: This is a company that clearly does not know what it is doing.
[36:25.240 --> 36:31.900]  [SPEAKER_25]: They, they miss appointments, they lose records, they, they foul up, uh, phone, uh, service beyond comprehension.
[36:32.760 --> 36:36.540]  [SPEAKER_25]: Uh, it's, it's almost like there's a faction of NYNEX that's working against NYNEX.
[36:37.120 --> 36:43.100]  [SPEAKER_25]: So, uh, maybe one day they'll identify themselves, but right now I just would have to say it's, it's too bad there, there is no competition.
[36:43.100 --> 36:48.820]  [SPEAKER_25]: By the way, you may have seen an ad in, uh, in some newspapers, uh, from AT&T, full page ad.
[36:49.040 --> 36:52.740]  [SPEAKER_25]: There would be one clear winner if there was a choice in local phone service.
[36:52.960 --> 36:53.380]  [SPEAKER_25]: You.
[36:53.900 --> 37:01.520]  [SPEAKER_25]: And, um, they, they go on to talk about how long distance prices have gone down, a dramatic 66% from 1984 to 1994 because of competition.
[37:01.860 --> 37:05.800]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's kind of funny to see them, uh, heralding, uh, competition in the long distance market.
[37:05.860 --> 37:06.740]  [SPEAKER_25]: This is AT&T.
[37:06.840 --> 37:08.860]  [SPEAKER_25]: Of course, they never wanted competition in the first place.
[37:09.000 --> 37:09.420]  [SPEAKER_25]: Right, right.
[37:09.620 --> 37:14.420]  [SPEAKER_25]: Uh, they published this, uh, Telephone Consumers Bill of Rights, which is kind of, kind of quaint.
[37:14.540 --> 37:29.240]  [SPEAKER_25]: We, the people, believe in the right to have a real choice of local phone companies, keep our current phone numbers even if we switch local phone companies, make a call without dialing extra numbers even if we switch local phone companies, eliminate unfair charges paid to local phone companies,
[37:29.320 --> 37:35.840]  [SPEAKER_25]: and be sure the government requires local telephone monopolies not to interfere with real and fair competition.
[37:36.340 --> 37:36.940]  [SPEAKER_24]: Yeah, right.
[37:37.100 --> 37:43.660]  [SPEAKER_25]: And they, they say, they say to send a, a free personalized telegram to the chairman of the New York Public Service Commission.
[37:43.660 --> 37:48.080]  [SPEAKER_25]: I guess you can pretty much send a free personalized telegram to them on any subject.
[37:48.220 --> 37:50.680]  [SPEAKER_25]: I'm not sure about that, but, uh, you can certainly talk to these people.
[37:50.800 --> 37:53.700]  [SPEAKER_25]: Call 1-800-225-5188.
[37:53.980 --> 37:56.280]  [SPEAKER_25]: If it's free and personalized, I guess you can say whatever you want.
[37:56.520 --> 38:06.600]  [SPEAKER_25]: But they're encouraging people to, um, uh, to support the, uh, Telephone Consumers Bill of Rights, uh, which is something that AT&T appears to have come up with.
[38:07.140 --> 38:15.220]  [SPEAKER_25]: Um, I can't really say, follow AT&T and trust everything that they say, but we certainly do need competition on the local level.
[38:15.460 --> 38:18.540]  [SPEAKER_18]: And there's a, uh, company that's out of, uh, New Jersey, I think.
[38:18.640 --> 38:19.600]  [SPEAKER_18]: They're called IDT.
[38:19.860 --> 38:20.180]  [SPEAKER_18]: Uh-huh.
[38:20.180 --> 38:26.340]  [SPEAKER_18]: And they're starting to advertise that they're the first long-distance provider to actually offer free Internet access with every account.
[38:27.060 --> 38:28.120]  [SPEAKER_25]: Free Internet access.
[38:28.220 --> 38:30.780]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, I'd like to see what kind of, uh, free Internet access they're talking about.
[38:30.960 --> 38:31.600]  [SPEAKER_18]: There's a number here.
[38:31.700 --> 38:33.120]  [SPEAKER_18]: I can give it to you if you actually want to give them a call.
[38:33.180 --> 38:33.460]  [SPEAKER_18]: Go ahead.
[38:33.460 --> 38:36.740]  [SPEAKER_18]: It's area code 201-928-1000.
[38:37.860 --> 38:39.980]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, 201-928-1000?
[38:40.200 --> 38:40.940]  [SPEAKER_18]: Yep, that's them.
[38:41.360 --> 38:41.700]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay.
[38:42.040 --> 38:43.020]  [SPEAKER_25]: We'll check that out.
[38:43.220 --> 38:46.920]  [SPEAKER_18]: Okay, and I've really enjoyed the, uh, the whole quest for ISDN, you know.
[38:47.080 --> 38:49.180]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, you'll enjoy it a lot more when we finally get there.
[38:49.940 --> 38:52.260]  [SPEAKER_25]: We'll see what, uh, what ISDN actually does.
[38:52.460 --> 38:52.680]  [SPEAKER_18]: Alrighty.
[38:52.940 --> 38:53.540]  [SPEAKER_25]: Thanks for calling.
[38:53.660 --> 38:54.080]  [SPEAKER_18]: Yep, take care.
[38:54.180 --> 38:54.380]  [SPEAKER_25]: Bye-bye.
[38:55.660 --> 38:57.160]  [SPEAKER_25]: 212-279-3400.
[38:57.600 --> 38:58.600]  [SPEAKER_25]: Good evening, you're on.
[38:59.240 --> 38:59.600]  Oh.
[39:00.040 --> 39:00.940]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yes, go ahead.
[39:01.180 --> 39:01.600]  [SPEAKER_15]: Is it anyone?
[39:01.960 --> 39:02.420]  [SPEAKER_25]: Uh-huh.
[39:02.660 --> 39:03.180]  [SPEAKER_15]: Oh, great.
[39:03.460 --> 39:05.240]  [SPEAKER_15]: Uh, Emmanuel, I just have a quick question.
[39:05.420 --> 39:13.000]  [SPEAKER_15]: A number of months ago, you had a guest on, uh, whose name was Brock, and he was discussing, uh, a publication called Interactive Week.
[39:13.340 --> 39:14.840]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's, uh, Brock Meeks, yes.
[39:14.980 --> 39:16.220]  [SPEAKER_25]: Reporter from Washington, D.C.
[39:16.540 --> 39:16.780]  [SPEAKER_15]: Great.
[39:16.960 --> 39:21.220]  [SPEAKER_15]: I, I, do you have any idea how I can get information on how to subscribe or, or get any...
[39:21.220 --> 39:22.320]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, I'll give you a Brock's email.
[39:22.540 --> 39:28.940]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's, uh, Brock, B-R-O-C-K, at, uh, well.com.
[39:30.540 --> 39:31.720]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay, I don't have a computer.
[39:31.960 --> 39:35.280]  [SPEAKER_15]: Is there a, is there a number or an address where I could contact him?
[39:35.280 --> 39:37.980]  [SPEAKER_25]: Um, I don't have one off the top of my head.
[39:38.500 --> 39:38.840]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay.
[39:39.160 --> 39:40.200]  [SPEAKER_25]: Wait, uh, do you have one?
[39:40.440 --> 39:40.620]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah.
[39:41.060 --> 39:43.160]  [SPEAKER_23]: Let's go ahead and contact Ziff Publications in New York.
[39:43.320 --> 39:44.200]  [SPEAKER_25]: Ziff Public, speak up.
[39:44.600 --> 39:46.620]  [SPEAKER_23]: Just contact Ziff Publications in New York.
[39:46.720 --> 39:47.300]  [SPEAKER_23]: They're in the phone book.
[39:47.420 --> 39:48.260]  [SPEAKER_23]: They're at One Park Avenue.
[39:48.480 --> 39:51.760]  [SPEAKER_23]: They publish Interactive Week, and they give you information on how to subscribe to it.
[39:51.920 --> 39:52.860]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay, I appreciate it.
[39:52.980 --> 39:53.240]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay.
[39:53.420 --> 39:53.840]  [SPEAKER_25]: Thanks again.
[39:53.840 --> 39:54.280]  [SPEAKER_25]: Good luck.
[39:55.280 --> 39:56.320]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, thanks for that info.
[39:57.260 --> 39:59.240]  [SPEAKER_25]: 212-279-3400 is our phone number.
[39:59.820 --> 40:00.360]  [SPEAKER_25]: Good evening.
[40:00.480 --> 40:01.000]  [SPEAKER_25]: You're on Off the Hook.
[40:01.180 --> 40:01.700]  [SPEAKER_07]: Hey, Guy.
[40:01.800 --> 40:02.200]  [SPEAKER_07]: How are you doing?
[40:02.340 --> 40:02.580]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay.
[40:03.040 --> 40:08.900]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uh, listen, I wanted to ask you about, uh, the, uh, news capabilities of Internet providers.
[40:09.320 --> 40:11.620]  [SPEAKER_07]: Um, I've really wound up on a wall.
[40:11.700 --> 40:12.960]  [SPEAKER_07]: Some people are saying seven days.
[40:13.060 --> 40:14.660]  [SPEAKER_07]: Some people are saying three to four.
[40:14.760 --> 40:21.540]  [SPEAKER_07]: I think a lot of it's due to the fact that, unfortunately, um, you know, the disk base is limited and the news groups are growing unlimited.
[40:21.540 --> 40:24.660]  [SPEAKER_25]: What, what you're asking is how long is, uh, is news stored?
[40:24.960 --> 40:27.660]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, from you, I mean, it seems like it's a week on most good systems.
[40:27.840 --> 40:29.720]  [SPEAKER_07]: Some people are scratching down to three to four days.
[40:29.800 --> 40:31.000]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah, you know, it's, uh...
[40:31.000 --> 40:31.800]  [SPEAKER_07]: So they have more?
[40:32.560 --> 40:37.000]  [SPEAKER_25]: I, I don't know who, who, who, I think the bigger systems, obviously, would store it longer.
[40:37.420 --> 40:40.440]  [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, for American Online, I think, keeps it for a couple, or for at least a month.
[40:40.500 --> 40:41.820]  [SPEAKER_07]: They used to keep it for a couple months, now they keep it a month.
[40:41.840 --> 40:43.180]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, there's a flip side to that.
[40:43.280 --> 40:45.820]  [SPEAKER_25]: AOL seems to also get it a month later than anybody else.
[40:46.160 --> 40:46.600]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's true, too.
[40:46.600 --> 40:57.700]  [SPEAKER_25]: Uh, the reason for that, uh, the reason I learned about that was once when I was mail-bombed, and I, I was getting, uh, uh, actually I was being mail-bombed from all these people that thought I was, uh, I was a white supremacist, uh, because someone posted this message.
[40:57.780 --> 40:58.280]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's why.
[40:58.900 --> 41:11.380]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, no, it's because someone posted a message, uh, saying all kinds of, of horrible racial things, um, with my name somehow attached to it, and of course I was getting mail from all over the place, and I was able to trace how the net actually, um, responded.
[41:11.580 --> 41:23.880]  [SPEAKER_25]: First it was people in New York, then it was people throughout, uh, the country, then it was over in Germany and, and, and Europe, uh, then it was, um, Asia and Australia, and, uh, then about a week after it all died down, AOL started pouring in.
[41:24.540 --> 41:27.060]  [SPEAKER_25]: So, uh, that, that told me something that...
[41:27.060 --> 41:28.240]  [SPEAKER_07]: I didn't know you guys had a studio audience.
[41:28.660 --> 41:32.840]  [SPEAKER_25]: Uh, yeah, we have a little, uh, laugh track that we, we press every now, and I guess I'm pressing it a little too much.
[41:32.980 --> 41:35.800]  [SPEAKER_07]: Okay, two quick comments about IDT and IOL.
[41:35.880 --> 41:37.260]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's, uh, IDT is an interesting company.
[41:37.380 --> 41:39.500]  [SPEAKER_07]: They used to provide callback service.
[41:39.640 --> 41:41.860]  [SPEAKER_07]: You'd probably be interested in that for international callers.
[41:41.860 --> 41:46.780]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, is that, is that the company where you would call from, uh, from, say, England or France or something like that?
[41:46.780 --> 41:49.900]  [SPEAKER_25]: You'd ring it once and then it would call you back with an American dial tone?
[41:50.060 --> 41:53.400]  [SPEAKER_07]: Well, because, uh, you would be charged at outrageous rates in some countries for...
[41:53.400 --> 41:53.780]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's right.
[41:53.940 --> 41:54.540]  [SPEAKER_07]: ...national calls.
[41:54.660 --> 41:56.960]  [SPEAKER_25]: So they're now offering, uh, Internet access.
[41:57.140 --> 42:00.420]  [SPEAKER_07]: But it's free in so far as if you buy long distance from them.
[42:00.820 --> 42:03.200]  [SPEAKER_07]: So if you buy long distance from them, become their customer.
[42:03.600 --> 42:07.660]  [SPEAKER_07]: And they built through LDDS, which I think is the fourth largest, uh, long distance company.
[42:07.900 --> 42:08.440]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's true.
[42:08.500 --> 42:12.620]  [SPEAKER_25]: And they, they, they own, uh, Metro Media now, which, uh, used to be ITT.
[42:12.840 --> 42:13.860]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah, they're, they're getting pretty big.
[42:16.780 --> 42:19.060]  [SPEAKER_07]: If you sign up with them, they'll give you a shell account for free.
[42:19.140 --> 42:20.520]  [SPEAKER_07]: The PPP account is $20.
[42:21.140 --> 42:22.760]  [SPEAKER_07]: It saves you $15 off of both.
[42:22.920 --> 42:24.120]  [SPEAKER_07]: It's usually $35 and $20.
[42:24.320 --> 42:33.840]  [SPEAKER_07]: So it's, I mean, it's a decent deal if you don't mind getting LDDS, uh, which, which is interesting because LDDS is the only, only distance company that doesn't serve, give you a surcharge for card calls.
[42:34.180 --> 42:35.220]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's, that's true.
[42:35.660 --> 42:36.480]  [SPEAKER_25]: Um, in fact...
[42:36.480 --> 42:38.800]  [SPEAKER_07]: Hey, go for it if you are, if it's your want.
[42:38.900 --> 42:41.500]  [SPEAKER_07]: And they actually, apparently have a good news feed as well.
[42:41.680 --> 42:43.320]  [SPEAKER_25]: If you call, I think it's LDDS.
[42:43.320 --> 42:55.820]  [SPEAKER_25]: It might be listed as Metro Media at this particular point, but if you call them and you ask for the preferred calling card, uh, you can theoretically, if you, if you press hard enough, you'll get a 950 number, which works nationwide, 950-0488.
[42:55.820 --> 43:04.500]  [SPEAKER_25]: And, uh, I think it's a 14-digit code and, uh, basically there's no surcharge on that and it's not as expensive as calling through an 800 number.
[43:04.700 --> 43:05.040]  [SPEAKER_07]: Exactly.
[43:05.200 --> 43:15.980]  [SPEAKER_07]: And, uh, they actually, for some reason, uh, well, actually a long time ago, MCI and I think Sprint used to offer local calls for your card calling, but actually cheaper than putting a quarter in.
[43:16.080 --> 43:16.400]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's right.
[43:16.500 --> 43:21.360]  [SPEAKER_25]: 950-1022 and 1033 used to be the, uh, MCI and Sprint, respectively, uh, numbers.
[43:21.360 --> 43:26.920]  [SPEAKER_25]: As people would call, with the phasing, uh, phasing in of equal access, those numbers went away.
[43:27.140 --> 43:28.900]  [SPEAKER_25]: Unfortunately, it's a really good idea.
[43:29.080 --> 43:38.860]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's something I think they could make a lot of money on if they, if they re-institute that, where you can actually be at a payphone, make a phone call, and pay the same amount of money that you would pay if you were dialing directly from your home.
[43:39.080 --> 43:39.400]  [SPEAKER_07]: Absolutely.
[43:39.540 --> 43:40.520]  [SPEAKER_07]: Last, absolutely last thing.
[43:40.600 --> 43:49.260]  [SPEAKER_07]: I just wanted to ask, uh, answer this, even when I get off, is, uh, you said someone's going to talk to the president of the INEX tomorrow about ISTN, at least in part.
[43:49.500 --> 43:49.920]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's right.
[43:50.020 --> 43:50.860]  [SPEAKER_25]: Someone is going to talk to them.
[43:50.860 --> 43:57.620]  [SPEAKER_07]: Um, I'd like to hear what he has to say, because I hope he's going to relay both your story and millions of other stories that have gone on about ISTN.
[43:57.780 --> 43:58.040]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay.
[43:58.040 --> 44:00.620]  [SPEAKER_25]: I'm, I'm sure he will be there as a representative for all of us.
[44:00.780 --> 44:01.000]  [SPEAKER_07]: Beautiful.
[44:01.200 --> 44:01.420]  [SPEAKER_07]: Thank you.
[44:01.500 --> 44:01.680]  [SPEAKER_07]: Bye-bye.
[44:01.900 --> 44:02.140]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay.
[44:02.900 --> 44:06.820]  [SPEAKER_25]: Uh, and by the way, when you talk to them tomorrow, um, don't mention me.
[44:07.040 --> 44:07.720]  [SPEAKER_25]: Don't mention this.
[44:07.840 --> 44:09.000]  [SPEAKER_25]: Don't mention we're doing this on the radio.
[44:09.140 --> 44:11.140]  [SPEAKER_25]: I, I, I don't want any special treatment here.
[44:11.340 --> 44:13.340]  [SPEAKER_25]: I, I want this to progress in its natural course.
[44:13.460 --> 44:14.680]  [SPEAKER_25]: We're up to day 29 now.
[44:15.200 --> 44:16.540]  [SPEAKER_25]: Maybe that's the way it should be.
[44:16.720 --> 44:17.120]  [SPEAKER_25]: Who knows?
[44:17.720 --> 44:20.680]  [SPEAKER_25]: Um, maybe when we get into the triple digits, I'll feel differently.
[44:20.680 --> 44:22.700]  [SPEAKER_25]: But for now, let's, uh, let's just keep it that way.
[44:22.760 --> 44:26.360]  [SPEAKER_25]: But, uh, by all means, let us know what happens when you plead your case.
[44:28.160 --> 44:29.280]  [SPEAKER_25]: 212-279-3400.
[44:29.380 --> 44:30.520]  [SPEAKER_25]: The program is off the hook.
[44:30.640 --> 44:33.460]  [SPEAKER_25]: We have about another 16 minutes, so let's see how many calls we can get through.
[44:34.000 --> 44:34.920]  [SPEAKER_25]: Good evening, you're on.
[44:36.880 --> 44:38.460]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, well, that's one we're going to get through rather quickly.
[44:38.680 --> 44:39.640]  [SPEAKER_25]: Good evening, you're on.
[44:40.340 --> 44:41.640]  [SPEAKER_25]: Uh, no static.
[44:41.740 --> 44:42.400]  [SPEAKER_25]: No static today.
[44:42.520 --> 44:43.220]  [SPEAKER_25]: Good evening, you're on.
[44:45.000 --> 44:45.640]  Yes, uh...
[44:45.640 --> 44:46.340]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah, go ahead.
[44:47.380 --> 44:50.660]  [SPEAKER_14]: Um, I've been trying to get through for a long time that new switch.
[44:50.680 --> 44:56.780]  [SPEAKER_14]: The switch that you guys had, unfortunately, implemented on you has been disconnecting me for about the last two weeks.
[44:56.960 --> 44:57.780]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yep, that's progress.
[44:58.380 --> 45:00.680]  [SPEAKER_14]: Um, but I'm calling...
[45:01.440 --> 45:04.680]  [SPEAKER_14]: Frankly, I think my, uh, call would have been...
[45:11.210 --> 45:19.590]  [SPEAKER_14]: But, uh, I'm calling, unfortunately, along the lines of, uh, Brian S, who's, uh...
[45:19.590 --> 45:21.690]  [SPEAKER_14]: Was in prison or whatnot?
[45:21.910 --> 45:22.410]  [SPEAKER_25]: Bernie S.
[45:22.610 --> 45:23.270]  [SPEAKER_14]: Bernie S.
[45:23.650 --> 45:51.050]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, uh, what I wanted to call about is that something that happened to him happened to me just recently in January in New Jersey, where, uh, my friend was charged with possession of a red box by local police, who seem to have a keen eye now to be looking for these kinds of things.
[45:51.050 --> 45:56.530]  [SPEAKER_14]: They knew exactly which buttons to press and this and that, and they started making wild accusations.
[45:57.130 --> 45:59.570]  [SPEAKER_25]: Was this, uh, one of the Radio Shack tone dialers?
[45:59.790 --> 46:00.550]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, it was.
[46:00.790 --> 46:03.470]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, listen, this is, this is what I'm going to suggest to everybody out there.
[46:03.530 --> 46:04.710]  [SPEAKER_25]: This has gone too far.
[46:05.430 --> 46:12.790]  [SPEAKER_25]: Um, you, you, you walk into Radio Shack these days and you get interrogation when you try to buy one of these things, tone dialers that can easily be converted to be red boxes.
[46:13.170 --> 46:16.450]  [SPEAKER_25]: Uh, police on the street are, are interrogating people with these.
[46:16.590 --> 46:19.730]  [SPEAKER_25]: People are being locked up for $100,000 bail for possession of them.
[46:20.130 --> 46:28.870]  [SPEAKER_25]: I want everybody, I don't say these kind of things often, but I want everybody to go out, right now, whenever they open again, uh, to Radio Shack and buy these tone dialers.
[46:28.970 --> 46:30.610]  [SPEAKER_25]: Buy as many of them as you can, okay?
[46:30.630 --> 46:32.770]  [SPEAKER_25]: This is not to help Radio Shack, believe me.
[46:33.210 --> 46:35.550]  [SPEAKER_25]: Uh, but just buy them and don't modify them.
[46:35.670 --> 46:36.850]  [SPEAKER_25]: Just walk around with them.
[46:37.090 --> 46:46.610]  [SPEAKER_25]: And, you, when, when, when you start getting interrogated for having something that literally cannot do anything but emit a Touch-Tone, then maybe the average person will see how crazy this is.
[46:46.830 --> 46:52.610]  [SPEAKER_25]: And it'll also become a lot harder to find people that have, have, uh, modified ones and non-modified ones.
[46:52.770 --> 46:53.650]  [SPEAKER_25]: That is not the problem.
[46:53.810 --> 46:57.210]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's not the problem what kind of tones you emit through this little tiny box.
[46:57.470 --> 47:03.450]  [SPEAKER_25]: Uh, the, the, the problem is the fact that, A, payphone calls are outrageously expensive so people feel the need to do this kind of thing.
[47:03.570 --> 47:12.170]  [SPEAKER_25]: B, the system is so incredibly simple that it just takes five tones on a tape recorder that anybody can, can emulate to, uh, to defeat the system.
[47:12.730 --> 47:15.950]  [SPEAKER_25]: And, um, I'm sure there's a C in there somewhere, but I think that's good enough for now.
[47:15.950 --> 47:27.090]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, um, there's several other things that actually make this more than just a problem in terms of harassment.
[47:27.270 --> 47:27.510]  [SPEAKER_11]: Okay.
[47:27.710 --> 47:40.750]  [SPEAKER_14]: Considering the charge that he was charged with was, um, actually initially a felony charge of possession of an unauthorized telecommunications fraud device.
[47:40.750 --> 47:49.530]  [SPEAKER_14]: I actually have the police report in front of me, considering I was also, unfortunately, indirectly involved in this entire procedure.
[47:50.070 --> 47:52.270]  [SPEAKER_14]: I mean, I don't know.
[47:52.550 --> 47:57.090]  [SPEAKER_14]: These, like I said, uh, we weren't, he had it in, on him.
[47:57.290 --> 48:01.730]  [SPEAKER_14]: We weren't near payphones at the time of this entire proceeding and this and that.
[48:01.730 --> 48:13.350]  [SPEAKER_14]: But, at this point, I would assume that harassment is, like, beyond the explanation for what these people seem to be doing now.
[48:13.750 --> 48:27.870]  [SPEAKER_14]: And, also, something else that I wanted to say is that I, myself, um, as a result of this and some other things, have been in jail for the past couple of months.
[48:27.870 --> 48:29.410]  [SPEAKER_14]: I normally go to 2,600.
[48:29.750 --> 48:35.250]  [SPEAKER_14]: I've spoken to you plenty of times, myself, uh, at these meetings and whatnot.
[48:35.650 --> 48:53.010]  [SPEAKER_14]: And, unfortunately, during this last time that I had to deal with these state authorities, I finally found out something that, to me, makes even less sense than the way people are prosecuting these red box calls nowadays.
[48:54.130 --> 49:06.970]  [SPEAKER_14]: I've found out that I've been under investigation by federal authorities for so long that, to me, it seems as if they've been spending literally millions of dollars on me.
[49:07.030 --> 49:15.050]  [SPEAKER_14]: And I want to state right now that I've never been charged federally or state on a state level for any sort of computer crime.
[49:15.210 --> 49:22.710]  [SPEAKER_14]: But I just wanted to let you know that I, myself, have had my phone calls monitored.
[49:22.710 --> 49:27.510]  [SPEAKER_14]: I've had pictures of myself taken at various kinds of 2,600 meetings.
[49:27.670 --> 49:35.690]  [SPEAKER_14]: This was shown to, like, parents of my friends in order to show them what a bad person I was, and this and that.
[49:35.830 --> 49:39.410]  [SPEAKER_14]: I was, had so many things confiscated from me.
[49:39.490 --> 49:48.310]  [SPEAKER_14]: I, myself, had software on how to technically use cellular phones, cables for modifying cellular phones.
[49:48.390 --> 49:50.670]  [SPEAKER_14]: Also had no modified cellular phones.
[49:50.810 --> 49:55.010]  [SPEAKER_14]: But these things, in and of themselves, were confiscated from me.
[49:55.130 --> 49:58.250]  [SPEAKER_14]: No record of them being taken from me was ever given.
[49:58.570 --> 50:05.990]  [SPEAKER_14]: I don't know if I can get them back, because what actual record do I have of them taking this from me?
[50:06.110 --> 50:09.050]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, they're supposed to give you a receipt when they take these things.
[50:09.190 --> 50:10.030]  [SPEAKER_14]: But they haven't.
[50:10.290 --> 50:13.610]  [SPEAKER_14]: And this has happened to me twice, at least.
[50:13.770 --> 50:28.230]  [SPEAKER_14]: And in the, uh, last instance, this being in the, uh, beginning of January, they took, off of this supposed possession of a red box, they came to my house and they took all my computer discs.
[50:28.650 --> 50:32.010]  [SPEAKER_14]: They took 2,600 magazines from me.
[50:32.310 --> 50:34.170]  [SPEAKER_14]: About three or four of them.
[50:35.050 --> 50:39.990]  [SPEAKER_14]: And, uh, once again, they have absolutely no record of ever having taken this from me.
[50:40.110 --> 50:43.370]  [SPEAKER_14]: But I know that I don't have this anymore.
[50:43.570 --> 50:49.990]  [SPEAKER_14]: I mean, this was about, like, 5 to 6 years worth of collecting various files off of various BBSs.
[50:50.470 --> 50:54.430]  [SPEAKER_14]: And hundreds of these discs are no longer in my possession.
[50:54.430 --> 51:06.530]  [SPEAKER_14]: I'm wondering if you've ever heard of similar cases to the level where, I mean, back in September, they took my hard drive and they didn't give me any kind of record of them taking it.
[51:06.710 --> 51:11.470]  [SPEAKER_14]: At that time, they took those cables, they took the software for cellular phones.
[51:11.730 --> 51:14.490]  [SPEAKER_14]: No record of any of this being taken from me.
[51:14.570 --> 51:18.050]  [SPEAKER_25]: I've heard countless cases over the years of, of, of very similar things happening.
[51:18.210 --> 51:21.690]  [SPEAKER_25]: Perhaps, uh, not as well documented as, as yours, you know, from your point of view.
[51:22.210 --> 51:25.570]  [SPEAKER_25]: Uh, but this, this kind of thing does happen quite a bit.
[51:26.010 --> 51:29.050]  [SPEAKER_25]: Um, now, I assume you know the entity that did this.
[51:29.310 --> 51:34.290]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yes, it was the Secret Service on, uh, both accounts.
[51:34.610 --> 51:38.450]  [SPEAKER_14]: However, the FBI also decided to show up in tandem.
[51:38.750 --> 51:45.770]  [SPEAKER_14]: I have unfortunately found out the hard way that I have quite a large file amassed on me since...
[51:45.770 --> 51:46.190]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay.
[51:46.370 --> 51:47.450]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, now, there's a couple of things.
[51:47.630 --> 51:56.770]  [SPEAKER_25]: A, you can, you can file Freedom of Information Acts to, uh, to, to find out what kind of files they have on you, um, and get the help of perhaps the ACLU on that one.
[51:56.990 --> 52:07.190]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now, the problem that a lot of computer hackers have, or, or people that are caught up in these kind of cases, is they don't know exactly what it is that these people are looking for, what they're going to charge them with.
[52:07.270 --> 52:18.810]  [SPEAKER_25]: And I don't think there are very many people in this country, computer hackers and non-computer hackers, that can say beyond a shadow of a doubt, I am totally innocent, and there's absolutely nothing that, uh, that I'm not afraid of, uh, of people finding out.
[52:19.170 --> 52:32.470]  [SPEAKER_25]: If you are one of the people that can stand up and say there's, you know, there's absolutely nothing that I've done wrong, and nothing can be proven against me, then you may be able to afford to actually go public and fight these people, and challenge them to,
[52:32.550 --> 52:33.450]  [SPEAKER_25]: to come up with something.
[52:35.190 --> 52:46.510]  [SPEAKER_25]: And if they will set a precedent where they have to, uh, have some kind of, of, uh, valid reason before they go busting in people's doors and, and, and seizing equipment without any kind of crime being committed.
[52:47.070 --> 52:51.770]  [SPEAKER_25]: You see, but that, that's really, we need that kind of a precedent where someone is not afraid to do that.
[52:51.850 --> 52:57.430]  [SPEAKER_25]: And that's why it's important for people who are interested in this kind of thing to, to play by the rules.
[52:57.550 --> 53:09.850]  [SPEAKER_25]: That is, not, uh, not go out and, and, uh, break all kinds of laws because then, uh, you know, when the pigeons come home to roost, you're not gonna be able to stand on solid ground and say, look, I know why I, I, I'm standing up for myself.
[53:09.850 --> 53:14.050]  [SPEAKER_25]: I know what I believe in, and this is, you know, my point of view, and you violated my rights.
[53:14.190 --> 53:18.010]  [SPEAKER_25]: If you think that you're perhaps a criminal, then you're not gonna be able to do that as easily.
[53:18.570 --> 53:20.590]  [SPEAKER_25]: And, and it'll be much more of a chance to take.
[53:20.750 --> 53:21.390]  [SPEAKER_25]: Do you see my point?
[53:22.190 --> 53:24.390]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, I see your point entirely.
[53:24.790 --> 53:37.090]  [SPEAKER_14]: And, actually, in all of the things that they have accused me of, or supposedly said that I might have been doing, I mean, they never even really gave much explanations.
[53:37.410 --> 53:40.750]  [SPEAKER_14]: They were just, frankly, I was in jail.
[53:40.750 --> 53:45.210]  [SPEAKER_14]: And when I finally came out, I found out that all this stuff was gone.
[53:45.210 --> 53:50.270]  [SPEAKER_14]: I found out that all these books were missing, and this and that.
[53:50.410 --> 54:04.530]  [SPEAKER_14]: Like I said, I've never been charged, much less convicted, of any crime on a state or federal level related to computer crime, telephony, or anything related to this, cellular phone fraud, or nonetheless.
[54:05.130 --> 54:17.310]  [SPEAKER_14]: However, I'm, I'm absolutely certain, because unfortunately, I now have cassette tapes in my possession of recorded conversations from years ago.
[54:17.490 --> 54:27.410]  [SPEAKER_14]: And I found out that they were recently exploiting a legal loophole in the fact that they have the ability to tap a phone for 20 days without notifying the person.
[54:27.590 --> 54:35.530]  [SPEAKER_14]: And what they were doing, in my case, was tapping it for, like, say, 18 days, and not tapping it for five, and then tapping it again.
[54:35.630 --> 54:39.270]  [SPEAKER_14]: And they could do this ad infinitum forever and ever.
[54:39.470 --> 54:42.110]  [SPEAKER_14]: And, unfortunately, they've been doing this for years.
[54:42.230 --> 54:53.950]  [SPEAKER_14]: And, frankly, I initially maybe even wanted to give this as a warning, but I don't even know what to give it as anymore, other than the fact that, in some cases, these guys must be really, really bored.
[54:54.450 --> 54:56.870]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, yeah, they're bored, they're suspicious, they're afraid.
[54:57.130 --> 55:00.550]  [SPEAKER_25]: What you need to do, and you need to do this quickly, contact the ACLU.
[55:00.770 --> 55:02.230]  [SPEAKER_25]: Get them interested in this story.
[55:02.310 --> 55:04.990]  [SPEAKER_25]: They need to take active interest in a lot of these cases.
[55:05.130 --> 55:10.910]  [SPEAKER_25]: They haven't so far, because there hasn't really been something where they can latch on to and learn from.
[55:11.170 --> 55:14.370]  [SPEAKER_25]: And, unfortunately, a lot of people are suffering as a result.
[55:14.570 --> 55:22.370]  [SPEAKER_25]: This sounds like the kind of case where there's a lot of material here, a lot of abuse of authority, and I don't see why they wouldn't be interested in that.
[55:22.490 --> 55:27.990]  [SPEAKER_25]: So, by all means, call the New York office, or if you're in a different city, call the office nearest to you.
[55:28.310 --> 55:33.850]  [SPEAKER_25]: And let us know how it turns out, because it sounds like a case that affects all of us.
[55:34.370 --> 55:41.690]  [SPEAKER_14]: Yeah, that's why I really wanted to finally get on the phone and make sure that everybody knows.
[55:42.210 --> 55:43.470]  [SPEAKER_14]: I live right in New Jersey.
[55:43.470 --> 55:49.050]  [SPEAKER_14]: I'm very close to New York, and I've lived there all in my life, and this has pretty much happened to me all in New Jersey.
[55:49.370 --> 55:57.070]  [SPEAKER_14]: And the Secret Service that have been bothering me and the FBI have been coming from Morristown and Newark, respectively.
[55:58.030 --> 56:02.590]  [SPEAKER_14]: So, it's all actually happening quite close to Newark.
[56:02.790 --> 56:02.810]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay.
[56:02.810 --> 56:10.530]  [SPEAKER_25]: Again, the most important thing in cases like this is full disclosure from us and from the people that are abusing our rights.
[56:10.670 --> 56:14.390]  [SPEAKER_25]: So, by all means, tell as many people as you can about what's going on.
[56:14.470 --> 56:16.010]  [SPEAKER_25]: Telling us on the radio, of course, is a good start.
[56:16.170 --> 56:19.610]  [SPEAKER_25]: But continue to follow this up legally and let us know, okay?
[56:20.030 --> 56:20.310]  Okay.
[56:20.530 --> 56:20.770]  [SPEAKER_25]: All right.
[56:20.810 --> 56:21.170]  [SPEAKER_25]: Good luck.
[56:21.350 --> 56:21.670]  All right.
[56:22.250 --> 56:41.150]  [SPEAKER_25]: And while that caller was on the line, in fact, I guess maybe about two minutes ago, just to demonstrate the ease of which we can do things like this, we took a RadioShack dialer, which somebody had in their pocket, a non-modified one, and began the process of modifying it.
[56:41.150 --> 56:42.250]  [SPEAKER_25]: Is that the case?
[56:42.350 --> 56:44.250]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now, how are we doing over there?
[56:44.390 --> 56:48.930]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, we have all the tools, and we actually just happen to have all the tools on us here.
[56:50.410 --> 56:54.950]  [SPEAKER_09]: I always carry a soldering iron with me just in case I need to solder something.
[56:56.090 --> 56:58.430]  [SPEAKER_25]: You've saved lives with your soldering iron, haven't you?
[56:58.610 --> 56:58.850]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay.
[56:59.130 --> 56:59.670]  [SPEAKER_09]: It's very helpful.
[56:59.750 --> 57:01.390]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, now, where do we stand in the operation?
[57:01.390 --> 57:02.470]  [SPEAKER_25]: It began about two minutes ago.
[57:02.570 --> 57:04.190]  [SPEAKER_25]: I watched all the activity from here.
[57:04.250 --> 57:07.910]  [SPEAKER_09]: We've got to heat up the solder, and it takes a while for the soldering iron to...
[57:07.910 --> 57:08.810]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, you have four minutes.
[57:08.910 --> 57:10.150]  [SPEAKER_25]: Are we going to be done in four minutes?
[57:10.150 --> 57:11.490]  [SPEAKER_09]: Is this a challenge?
[57:11.830 --> 57:12.890]  [SPEAKER_25]: No, it's not a challenge.
[57:12.890 --> 57:13.590]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's a question.
[57:13.870 --> 57:16.610]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, we can actually do that.
[57:16.790 --> 57:19.470]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, you better hurry, because now you have three minutes and 30 seconds.
[57:19.690 --> 57:23.710]  [SPEAKER_25]: So, while they're working on that, let's take another phone call here.
[57:23.910 --> 57:25.410]  [SPEAKER_25]: 212-279-3400.
[57:25.590 --> 57:25.910]  [SPEAKER_25]: Good evening.
[57:26.050 --> 57:26.730]  [SPEAKER_25]: You're on off the hook.
[57:27.110 --> 57:27.910]  [SPEAKER_13]: Good evening.
[57:28.150 --> 57:28.370]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yes.
[57:29.590 --> 57:35.130]  [SPEAKER_13]: UNIX can be reached on 800-501.
[57:35.570 --> 57:36.270]  [SPEAKER_13]: I'm sorry.
[57:36.370 --> 57:37.190]  [SPEAKER_13]: I mean netcom.
[57:37.370 --> 57:37.730]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay.
[57:37.730 --> 57:38.970]  [SPEAKER_25]: I was wondering what you meant by that.
[57:38.970 --> 57:50.590]  [SPEAKER_13]: It can be reached on 800-501-UNIX, and they connect various departments, especially sales.
[57:50.590 --> 57:59.010]  [SPEAKER_13]: I don't know about, excuse me, about technical backup department.
[57:59.010 --> 58:03.730]  [SPEAKER_13]: I think you have to make, always have to call that department on 408.
[58:03.730 --> 58:12.070]  [SPEAKER_13]: As to that IDT company, if you're calling from New York, you're always going to have to wait for them.
[58:12.310 --> 58:23.270]  [SPEAKER_13]: You call an 800 number rather than the 201 number your caller gave, though, of course, that would locally in the Hackensack area.
[58:23.270 --> 58:23.910]  [SPEAKER_13]: That's fine.
[58:24.210 --> 58:29.670]  [SPEAKER_13]: And you have to wait for them to always get back to you.
[58:30.990 --> 58:32.510]  [SPEAKER_13]: What is the name of it?
[58:32.730 --> 59:04.930]  [SPEAKER_13]: What you want, the lowest priced long-distance service of all, and with all six-second increments, not even a 30-second initial increment, is from MetroMedia, LDDS, they'll soon be called WorldCom, formerly ITT, via 800-GUS, GUS-8888, and be sure to press 2 so that you get customer service in East Rutherford.
[59:04.930 --> 59:09.450]  [SPEAKER_13]: You don't want residential, and you don't have to claim to actually be a business.
[59:09.590 --> 59:16.430]  [SPEAKER_13]: To get the same service at slightly higher prices, the residential customers pay a monthly fee.
[59:16.530 --> 59:18.950]  [SPEAKER_13]: The small business do not.
[59:19.090 --> 59:22.850]  [SPEAKER_13]: They're not the most aptly run place.
[59:23.490 --> 59:30.710]  [SPEAKER_13]: You always have to say, and who is this speaking, because they almost never give their names when you get them.
[59:30.710 --> 59:39.450]  [SPEAKER_13]: And then you have to tell them, you have to call the 800 number that's answered in Buffalo, where they sell their rum.
[59:39.670 --> 59:42.130]  [SPEAKER_25]: It sounds like you're taking a train ride around the country here.
[59:42.350 --> 59:43.710]  [SPEAKER_25]: Do you really have to go through all this?
[59:44.090 --> 59:44.410]  [SPEAKER_13]: Mm-hmm.
[59:44.490 --> 59:46.630]  [SPEAKER_25]: You really have to go through all this, East Rutherford, Buffalo?
[59:46.630 --> 59:49.630]  [SPEAKER_13]: You're going to get terrific rates.
[59:50.170 --> 59:50.950]  [SPEAKER_13]: By the way, I have...
[59:50.950 --> 59:52.670]  [SPEAKER_25]: Do you have any energy left after all this?
[59:52.770 --> 59:57.310]  [SPEAKER_13]: I have anonymous call rejection in service now.
[59:57.310 --> 01:00:02.830]  [SPEAKER_13]: No, if there were some way to get through to you, maybe I can tell you about it next week, but...
[01:00:03.270 --> 01:00:04.230]  [SPEAKER_25]: I'm sorry, if there's what?
[01:00:04.610 --> 01:00:11.050]  [SPEAKER_13]: If there were some way to get through to you, most weeks I have my lines going the whole time, and I never do.
[01:00:11.250 --> 01:00:15.370]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah, well, you know, it's a crapshoot for everybody, as far as getting through to the station.
[01:00:15.370 --> 01:00:20.310]  [SPEAKER_13]: At least anonymous call rejection, besides in the Poughkeepsie ladder, is available.
[01:00:20.310 --> 01:00:23.170]  [SPEAKER_13]: You have to call and put in a regular order.
[01:00:23.330 --> 01:00:32.090]  [SPEAKER_13]: There is no charge whatever to put it into effect, and if you have call ID, it's free of monthly charge as well.
[01:00:36.710 --> 01:00:37.770]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, anything else?
[01:00:38.610 --> 01:00:40.590]  [SPEAKER_13]: Well, we're out of time is the problem.
[01:00:40.850 --> 01:00:41.810]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah, that is a problem.
[01:00:41.910 --> 01:00:43.530]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, thanks for calling.
[01:00:43.650 --> 01:00:46.630]  [SPEAKER_25]: We do have to update us on this modification progress.
[01:00:46.890 --> 01:00:47.830]  [SPEAKER_25]: What's going on over there?
[01:00:47.830 --> 01:00:53.530]  [SPEAKER_08]: Well, I've managed to get the old crystal out, the colorburst crystal, and I'm replacing it with a 6.5 megahertz.
[01:00:54.150 --> 01:00:55.550]  [SPEAKER_25]: 6.5 megahertz crystal.
[01:00:55.690 --> 01:00:57.510]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, this is the crystal that got Bernie S.
[01:00:57.650 --> 01:00:58.890]  [SPEAKER_25]: in a slammer for $100,000.
[01:00:59.470 --> 01:01:00.330]  [SPEAKER_25]: In my hand.
[01:01:00.490 --> 01:01:00.730]  [SPEAKER_25]: All right.
[01:01:00.830 --> 01:01:05.010]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, it needs to be out of your hand and into the thing here.
[01:01:05.130 --> 01:01:06.810]  [SPEAKER_25]: We have about 15 seconds.
[01:01:06.930 --> 01:01:07.430]  [SPEAKER_25]: Are we going to make it?
[01:01:07.690 --> 01:01:08.070]  [SPEAKER_24]: 15 seconds.
[01:01:08.770 --> 01:01:11.930]  [SPEAKER_25]: Because we have the news rebroadcast coming up in just a couple minutes.
[01:01:12.350 --> 01:01:17.550]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, while you're soldering, and I'm sure we're making radio history here, maybe criminal history too.
[01:01:19.890 --> 01:01:24.510]  [SPEAKER_25]: Let's update people on the world news here.
[01:01:24.750 --> 01:01:28.650]  [SPEAKER_25]: This is something straight out of Iran, and maybe soon something similar will happen here.
[01:01:28.990 --> 01:01:36.030]  [SPEAKER_25]: Iranians who want their MTV will instead get visits from a special police unit formed to seize satellite TV dishes, which become illegal today.
[01:01:36.430 --> 01:01:39.790]  [SPEAKER_25]: The ban will immunize the people against the cultural invasion of the West.
[01:01:39.890 --> 01:01:47.150]  [SPEAKER_25]: Interior Minister Ali Mohamed Basharadi said yesterday in Tehran his comments were reported by Iranian media monitored in Cyprus.
[01:01:47.830 --> 01:01:48.610]  [SPEAKER_25]: Via satellite.
[01:01:49.110 --> 01:01:53.230]  [SPEAKER_25]: Owners of satellite dishes will have four days to remove them before raids by police begin.
[01:01:53.890 --> 01:01:58.090]  [SPEAKER_25]: Tehran has an estimated 250,000 satellite dishes, about one for every ten inhabitants.
[01:01:58.210 --> 01:01:59.650]  [SPEAKER_25]: I wonder if we can get a good deal on those.
[01:02:00.510 --> 01:02:01.290]  [SPEAKER_25]: I don't know.
[01:02:01.530 --> 01:02:02.230]  [SPEAKER_25]: It would be nice.
[01:02:02.730 --> 01:02:03.650]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, we're out of time.
[01:02:03.870 --> 01:02:04.370]  [SPEAKER_25]: Do we have a...
[01:02:04.370 --> 01:02:04.970]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's done.
[01:02:05.150 --> 01:02:06.570]  [SPEAKER_25]: All right, so let's...
[01:02:06.570 --> 01:02:08.530]  [SPEAKER_25]: Let's see if this thing actually works.
[01:02:08.630 --> 01:02:09.530]  [SPEAKER_25]: We're putting the batteries down.
[01:02:10.090 --> 01:02:17.450]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now remember, these are the tones that cause all the problems in the world, and if the phone company would just fix their system, there would be no problem.
[01:02:17.570 --> 01:02:18.270]  [SPEAKER_25]: Let's see if it works.
[01:02:19.610 --> 01:02:22.390]  [SPEAKER_09]: This is one of the tones.
[01:02:22.950 --> 01:02:23.570]  [SPEAKER_09]: I'm programming.
[01:02:24.630 --> 01:02:24.990]  [SPEAKER_15]: Okay.
[01:02:25.290 --> 01:02:26.510]  [SPEAKER_09]: And now...
[01:02:33.920 --> 01:02:34.900]  [SPEAKER_25]: This is very tense.
[01:02:35.400 --> 01:02:36.880]  [SPEAKER_08]: You hit memory, and then one...
[01:02:36.880 --> 01:02:37.660]  [SPEAKER_08]: Delicate operations.
[01:02:39.360 --> 01:02:41.160]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, we really have no more time.
[01:02:41.340 --> 01:02:42.160]  [SPEAKER_25]: We have to go to the news.
[01:02:42.160 --> 01:02:43.460]  [SPEAKER_08]: Hit memory, star, five times.
[01:02:44.460 --> 01:02:45.240]  [SPEAKER_09]: That's what I've done.
[01:02:46.040 --> 01:02:48.120]  [SPEAKER_25]: All right, well, it was close.
[01:02:48.400 --> 01:02:49.040]  [SPEAKER_25]: It was very close.
[01:02:49.040 --> 01:02:49.820]  [SPEAKER_25]: We'll be done in just a second.
[01:02:49.920 --> 01:02:50.820]  [SPEAKER_25]: We don't have a second.
[01:02:50.940 --> 01:02:51.360]  [SPEAKER_25]: We're out of time.
[01:02:51.480 --> 01:02:52.060]  [SPEAKER_25]: We're out of time.
[01:02:52.180 --> 01:02:52.340]  [SPEAKER_25]: Sorry.
[01:02:53.080 --> 01:02:54.060]  [SPEAKER_25]: But it's close.
[01:02:54.320 --> 01:02:55.040]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's very close.
[01:02:55.280 --> 01:02:57.760]  [SPEAKER_09]: What we need to do is program five stars into the device.
[01:02:57.800 --> 01:03:02.700]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, and then we'd have illegal tones going out over the air, but I guess we're not going to do that today.
[01:03:02.960 --> 01:03:07.820]  [SPEAKER_25]: Thanks, everybody, for joining us and for being a part of this historical program here.
[01:03:08.000 --> 01:03:10.560]  [SPEAKER_25]: Stay tuned for a rebroadcast of Pacifica Evening News.
[01:03:18.910 --> 01:03:25.410]  [SPEAKER_25]: This has been Off the Hook, and we'll be back again next week at the same time, and I'm sure by then we'll have this thing perfected.
[01:03:25.870 --> 01:03:34.350]  [SPEAKER_25]: It only takes a couple of minutes, and it's really something that we need to understand a little better, I think, in the legal world.
[01:03:35.150 --> 01:03:38.750]  [SPEAKER_25]: Stay tuned for the Pacifica Evening News rebroadcast here on WBAI New York.
[01:03:38.890 --> 01:03:39.050]  [SPEAKER_25]: Good night.
[01:04:00.450 --> 01:04:01.450]  [SPEAKER_06]: Good evening.
[01:04:01.830 --> 01:04:08.850]  [SPEAKER_06]: In the news tonight, a massive explosion kills at least 19 and injures more than 100 at a federal building in Oklahoma City.
[01:04:08.870 --> 01:04:12.650]  [SPEAKER_06]: We have reaction from Washington and officials here in our region.
[01:04:12.870 --> 01:04:19.310]  [SPEAKER_06]: And we'll have a special report on Mayor Rudolph Giuliani, what was his law firm's connection to the government of Iraq.
[01:04:19.630 --> 01:04:28.370]  [SPEAKER_06]: With these and other stories, I'm Jose Santiago in New York with Bernard Avery Brown in Washington, and this is the news for Wednesday, April 19, 1995.
[01:04:29.170 --> 01:04:36.530]  [SPEAKER_06]: We'll be going to Washington in a few moments for the Pacifica Network News, but first we have this update on today's explosion in Oklahoma.
[01:04:37.490 --> 01:04:45.350]  [SPEAKER_06]: Nineteen people are confirmed dead from an explosion that brought down an entire wall of a federal office building in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma this morning.
[01:04:45.350 --> 01:04:56.810]  [SPEAKER_06]: The Oklahoma governor's office has confirmed the fatalities, which included 17 children who at the time of the blast were in two separate daycare centers, one in the building that was struck, the other one across the street.
[01:04:57.070 --> 01:05:09.970]  [SPEAKER_06]: There have been unconfirmed reports that the number of fatalities could end up as high as 78 or even more as rescue workers search through what remains of the building looking for federal workers and more children believed to be trapped in the rubble.
[01:05:10.210 --> 01:05:17.390]  [SPEAKER_06]: The explosive device that did the damage appears to have been a car bomb believed to have contained as much as 1,200 pounds of explosives.
[01:05:17.730 --> 01:05:23.930]  [SPEAKER_06]: The FBI is reported to be looking for three suspects seen in the area of the blast riding in a brown pickup truck.
[01:05:24.290 --> 01:05:27.270]  [SPEAKER_06]: The men have been described as Middle Eastern in appearance.
[01:05:27.650 --> 01:05:37.150]  [SPEAKER_06]: Late this afternoon, President Clinton made a brief statement on the bombing, his comments followed by a description of the investigation as it's progressed so far by Attorney General Janet Reno.
[01:05:37.150 --> 01:05:41.950]  [SPEAKER_06]: Here now is a segment of that news conference again held late this afternoon in Washington.
[01:05:42.270 --> 01:05:49.990]  [SPEAKER_04]: The bombing in Oklahoma City was an attack on innocent children and defenseless citizens.
[01:05:51.490 --> 01:05:56.290]  [SPEAKER_04]: It was an act of cowardice and it was evil.
[01:05:58.090 --> 01:06:08.590]  [SPEAKER_04]: The United States will not tolerate it and I will not allow the people of this country to be intimidated by evil cowards.
[01:06:10.110 --> 01:06:25.830]  [SPEAKER_04]: I have met with our team which we assembled to deal with this bombing and I have determined to take the following steps to assure the strongest response to this situation.
[01:06:27.030 --> 01:06:40.770]  [SPEAKER_04]: First, I have deployed a crisis management team under the leadership of the FBI, working with the Department of Justice, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, military and local authorities.
[01:06:41.230 --> 01:06:45.910]  [SPEAKER_04]: We are sending the world's finest investigators to solve these murders.
[01:06:47.590 --> 01:07:04.950]  [SPEAKER_04]: Second, I have declared an emergency in Oklahoma City and at my direction, James LeWitt, the director of the Federal Emergency Management Agency, is now on his way there to make sure we do everything we can to help the people of Oklahoma deal with the tragedy.
[01:07:06.010 --> 01:07:15.590]  [SPEAKER_04]: Third, we are taking every precaution to reassure and to protect people who work in or live near other federal facilities.
[01:07:16.510 --> 01:07:18.470]  [SPEAKER_04]: Let there be no room for doubt.
[01:07:18.910 --> 01:07:21.690]  [SPEAKER_04]: We will find the people who did this.
[01:07:22.990 --> 01:07:29.530]  [SPEAKER_04]: When we do, justice will be swift, certain and severe.
[01:07:30.670 --> 01:07:35.950]  [SPEAKER_04]: These people are killers and they must be treated like killers.
[01:07:38.650 --> 01:07:58.030]  [SPEAKER_04]: Finally, let me say that I ask all Americans tonight to pray, to pray for the people who have lost their lives, to pray for the families and the friends of the dead and the wounded, to pray for the people of Oklahoma City.
[01:07:59.290 --> 01:08:01.370]  [SPEAKER_04]: May God's grace be with them.
[01:08:02.730 --> 01:08:06.150]  [SPEAKER_04]: Meanwhile, we will be about our work.
[01:08:06.610 --> 01:08:07.490]  [SPEAKER_04]: Thank you.
[01:08:09.870 --> 01:08:13.710]  [SPEAKER_06]: And President Clinton did not take reporter questions on the explosion.
[01:08:13.930 --> 01:08:21.070]  [SPEAKER_06]: Instead, he asked Attorney General Janet Reno to describe the investigation to reporters, the investigation that just began today.
[01:08:21.250 --> 01:08:23.390]  [SPEAKER_06]: And here is Attorney General Janet Reno.
[01:08:24.090 --> 01:08:27.470]  [SPEAKER_01]: This has been a tragic and heartbreaking day.
[01:08:28.110 --> 01:08:30.250]  [SPEAKER_01]: I can tell you this.
[01:08:30.990 --> 01:08:42.630]  [SPEAKER_01]: The FBI and the law enforcement community will pursue every lead and use every possible resource to bring the people responsible to justice.
[01:08:43.390 --> 01:08:54.150]  [SPEAKER_01]: The FBI has established a command post in Oklahoma City, and it is in 24-hour contact with FBI headquarters command post and with the Department of Justice.
[01:08:54.950 --> 01:09:04.150]  [SPEAKER_01]: Four FBI special agents in charge have been dispatched to the scene to provide 24-hour operation of the command post.
[01:09:04.870 --> 01:09:12.830]  [SPEAKER_01]: The FBI has sent four evidence response teams and explosive ordinance teams to Oklahoma City.
[01:09:14.450 --> 01:09:27.910]  [SPEAKER_01]: Five of the very best FBI agents experienced in this type of investigation are arriving in Oklahoma City, as have bomb technicians from Boston, Chicago, Miami, San Francisco, and Los Angeles.
[01:09:28.890 --> 01:09:34.790]  [SPEAKER_01]: Thirteen members of the Rapid Start team will be entering data as the evidence is collected.
[01:09:35.590 --> 01:09:41.430]  [SPEAKER_01]: Fifty more agents are available for arrival tomorrow, and more will be used as needed.
[01:09:41.430 --> 01:09:54.190]  [SPEAKER_01]: The FBI and federal law enforcement have received superb cooperation from local authorities in Oklahoma City, and the federal law enforcement agencies are working together.
[01:09:54.590 --> 01:09:59.590]  [SPEAKER_01]: The ATF has sent two national response teams and a mobile command center.
[01:09:59.770 --> 01:10:10.150]  [SPEAKER_01]: It has three explosive technicians and three laboratory technicians in Oklahoma City, and it is prepared to send 20 to 25 more personnel tomorrow.
[01:10:10.670 --> 01:10:14.390]  [SPEAKER_01]: The Secret Service is also sending explosives experts.
[01:10:15.030 --> 01:10:23.490]  [SPEAKER_01]: In addition, the Oklahoma National Guard has been deployed to assist in control of the area and the evacuation of the injured.
[01:10:24.010 --> 01:10:31.450]  [SPEAKER_01]: The United States Army has deployed the 61st Ordinance Detachment with a robot from Fort Sill, Oklahoma.
[01:10:31.450 --> 01:10:36.850]  [SPEAKER_01]: The Tulsa Police Department has deployed two bomb technicians, two dogs, and a robot.
[01:10:37.410 --> 01:10:41.490]  [SPEAKER_01]: And the FEMA is playing a major role in aid and assistance.
[01:10:42.590 --> 01:10:49.230]  [SPEAKER_01]: We cannot tell how long it will be before we can say with certainty what occurred and who is responsible.
[01:10:49.230 --> 01:10:54.350]  [SPEAKER_01]: But we will find the perpetrators, and we will bring them to justice.
[01:10:54.770 --> 01:11:01.110]  [SPEAKER_12]: Have you put out a bulletin seeking some particular suspects, and what can you tell us about that?
[01:11:01.210 --> 01:11:04.890]  [SPEAKER_12]: There are reports that got their descriptions of a couple of people who were seeking it.
[01:11:05.130 --> 01:11:10.650]  [SPEAKER_01]: What I can say about all evidentiary issues and all leads is that it would be...
[01:11:10.650 --> 01:11:20.990]  [SPEAKER_01]: it would hinder the investigation to discuss any action that we are taking and pursuant to the leads, but we are pursuing absolutely every shred of evidence available.
[01:11:21.090 --> 01:11:25.670]  [SPEAKER_12]: If people are to be on the lookout for someone, isn't there a way that you can describe those people?
[01:11:26.330 --> 01:11:32.110]  [SPEAKER_13]: Sounds from everything you've said as if you've concluded that this was a terrorist attack of some kind.
[01:11:32.290 --> 01:11:33.010]  [SPEAKER_13]: Can you confirm that?
[01:11:33.250 --> 01:11:42.210]  [SPEAKER_01]: I would not characterize it as such until the evidence is in, but we are pursuing every piece of evidence with whatever motivation behind it.
[01:11:42.290 --> 01:11:44.390]  [SPEAKER_12]: Do you have any statistics on the casualties?
[01:11:45.010 --> 01:11:49.510]  [SPEAKER_01]: We have some statistics on the casualties, but they are increasing every moment.
[01:11:49.850 --> 01:11:54.510]  [SPEAKER_01]: What we are trying to do is to make sure that we pursue every lead thing.
[01:11:55.570 --> 01:12:01.190]  [SPEAKER_01]: What we have been told is that there were 550 people assigned in the building.
[01:12:01.550 --> 01:12:05.150]  [SPEAKER_01]: Only 250 had been accounted for before I came in.
[01:12:05.450 --> 01:12:10.010]  [SPEAKER_01]: There may be as many as 100 to 250 more people to account for.
[01:12:10.010 --> 01:12:12.510]  [SPEAKER_01]: The casualty figures are climbing.
[01:12:13.550 --> 01:12:15.050]  [SPEAKER_01]: 100 victims have been treated.
[01:12:15.370 --> 01:12:21.050]  [SPEAKER_01]: Six children who were in the daycare center have been confirmed as dead.
[01:12:21.410 --> 01:12:25.650]  [SPEAKER_01]: And we are just pursuing absolutely every lead that we can.
[01:12:26.110 --> 01:12:30.370]  [SPEAKER_16]: General, have there been any more threats against any other federal buildings across the country?
[01:12:30.370 --> 01:12:41.390]  [SPEAKER_01]: In a situation like this, there are sometimes terribly misguided, horrible people who create copycat situations.
[01:12:41.650 --> 01:12:46.970]  [SPEAKER_01]: We've responded in each instance, and so far nothing has materialized.
[01:12:47.290 --> 01:12:51.890]  [SPEAKER_00]: Was there any indication, any warning that anything like this could happen?
[01:12:52.010 --> 01:13:00.030]  [SPEAKER_00]: Because there have been conflicting reports that, not specific warnings per se, but warnings that there might be terrorist activity in the period after March.
[01:13:00.750 --> 01:13:07.070]  [SPEAKER_01]: Again, I can't comment on any specific lead or any of the evidence that we have developed.
[01:13:07.270 --> 01:13:09.150]  [SPEAKER_24]: Do you think there's any tie-up with Waco?
[01:13:10.210 --> 01:13:16.090]  [SPEAKER_27]: Ms. Reno, the current crime bill that the president has signed includes a death penalty provision.
[01:13:16.290 --> 01:13:20.590]  [SPEAKER_27]: Assuming you do catch these people, will you go for that?
[01:13:20.590 --> 01:13:22.890]  [SPEAKER_01]: 18 U.S.C.
[01:13:23.050 --> 01:13:28.870]  [SPEAKER_01]: Section 844 relates to those who maliciously damage or destroy a federal building.
[01:13:29.130 --> 01:13:35.090]  [SPEAKER_01]: If there is death, if death occurs, the death penalty is available, and we will seek it.
[01:13:35.770 --> 01:13:39.450]  [SPEAKER_03]: General Reno, any more indication of where this device exploded?
[01:13:40.710 --> 01:13:50.730]  [SPEAKER_01]: Again, that would be commenting on the evidence that is being developed, and we would not want to do that, because to do so could possibly hinder the investigation.
[01:13:50.870 --> 01:13:52.250]  [SPEAKER_01]: General, if other governments are...
[01:13:52.250 --> 01:13:52.990]  [SPEAKER_02]: General Reno.
[01:13:53.230 --> 01:13:54.570]  [SPEAKER_02]: General Reno, I'm sorry.
[01:13:54.750 --> 01:14:04.950]  [SPEAKER_02]: On the importance of this event, are we crossing a new threshold of concern about security in this country, when even Oklahoma City is not safe?
[01:14:05.270 --> 01:14:09.150]  [SPEAKER_01]: I think that this has been a matter of concern for all Americans.
[01:14:09.150 --> 01:14:20.010]  [SPEAKER_01]: Any time you see acts like this around the world, and I think it is a matter that has got to be pursued with all vigor, I can't tell you whether it's a crossroads.
[01:14:20.250 --> 01:14:33.970]  [SPEAKER_01]: I can tell you that any time something like this occurs, we have to do everything possible to ensure that the people who are responsible are held accountable, and that we do everything we can to prevent a future of recurrence.
[01:14:34.130 --> 01:14:36.590]  [SPEAKER_14]: General, let me tell you whether or not this is a question.
[01:14:36.590 --> 01:14:43.290]  [SPEAKER_00]: General, what cautions would you urge other people who work in federal buildings or live near them to take?
[01:14:43.870 --> 01:14:55.530]  [SPEAKER_01]: We are working with the General Services Administration, the United States Marshal Service, and the FBI to take sensible precautions, and the federal employees who have been involved have just been wonderful.
[01:14:56.230 --> 01:15:00.930]  [SPEAKER_06]: General, have you decided whether this is just a coincidence that it happened on the second anniversary of the wait-to-seed?
[01:15:00.930 --> 01:15:04.070]  [SPEAKER_01]: General, again, we are pursuing all leads.
[01:15:04.230 --> 01:15:13.110]  [SPEAKER_01]: We cannot tell exactly what happened or who is responsible, and it would be better not to comment until we can conclusively talk about it.
[01:15:13.150 --> 01:15:18.090]  [SPEAKER_01]: General, has anyone called to claim responsibility for this, any credible group or organization?
[01:15:18.230 --> 01:15:24.070]  [SPEAKER_01]: Again, I don't think that I should comment on the evidence, because to do so would hinder the investigation.
[01:15:32.590 --> 01:15:39.590]  [SPEAKER_26]: General, if another government or governments are found to be involved, would military retaliation be appropriate?
[01:15:39.810 --> 01:15:41.490]  [SPEAKER_26]: Will it be carried out?
[01:15:41.670 --> 01:15:43.990]  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think that we should deal with what-ifs.
[01:15:44.090 --> 01:15:48.710]  [SPEAKER_01]: I think we should make sure that those people who are responsible and pursued and brought to justice...
[01:15:49.650 --> 01:15:54.890]  [SPEAKER_30]: General, the government of Israel has offered its help because it has a vast experience with this sort of thing.
[01:15:55.230 --> 01:15:56.570]  [SPEAKER_30]: Do you know if we're accepting that help?
[01:15:56.770 --> 01:16:07.250]  [SPEAKER_01]: We will, of course, rely on any additional resource that can possibly be involved and be utilized appropriately in bringing these people to justice.
[01:16:07.450 --> 01:16:08.410]  [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you very much.
[01:16:08.950 --> 01:16:14.470]  [SPEAKER_06]: And Attorney General Janet Reno taking reporter questions following the President's comments in Washington today.
[01:16:14.470 --> 01:16:19.430]  [SPEAKER_06]: In our region, police in New York and New Jersey stepped up security at federal facilities here.
[01:16:19.570 --> 01:16:27.750]  [SPEAKER_06]: The federal office building in Lower Manhattan was evacuated for several hours today while it was searched by agents of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms.
[01:16:28.070 --> 01:16:32.930]  [SPEAKER_06]: After a few hours, workers were allowed back in to retrieve their belongings and leave for the day.
[01:16:33.150 --> 01:16:42.090]  [SPEAKER_06]: At the Peter Rodino Federal Building in Newark, New Jersey, bomb experts from the Essex County Sheriff's Office searched the area for bombs as well and found nothing there.
[01:16:42.090 --> 01:16:45.910]  [SPEAKER_06]: Fire officials there did not feel the facility needed to be evacuated.
[01:16:46.290 --> 01:16:53.530]  [SPEAKER_06]: Earlier in the day, New York City Mayor Rudolph Giuliani assured New Yorkers that officials knew of no threat to federal facilities here in our region.
[01:16:53.750 --> 01:17:04.510]  [SPEAKER_34]: To the people of New York City, I think we should make it very plain that there is no reason for alarm, no reason for them to be worried that something will happen here.
[01:17:04.630 --> 01:17:09.950]  [SPEAKER_34]: There is no information, no intelligence, no suggestion that anything will happen here.
[01:17:09.950 --> 01:17:19.090]  [SPEAKER_06]: Even earlier in the day, the Federal Building in Rochester, New York, was evacuated after someone found in a bomb threat just hours after the explosion in Oklahoma City.
[01:17:19.290 --> 01:17:20.930]  [SPEAKER_06]: The four-story Kenneth B.
[01:17:21.050 --> 01:17:27.990]  [SPEAKER_06]: Keating Building houses about 560 employees working for a dozen agencies, including the FBI, the Secret Service, U.S.
[01:17:28.290 --> 01:17:30.430]  [SPEAKER_06]: District Courts, and a daycare center there as well.
[01:17:30.430 --> 01:17:36.790]  [SPEAKER_06]: A man called a Rochester hospital at 1222 this afternoon, claiming he planted a bomb in the Federal Building there.
[01:17:36.950 --> 01:17:41.370]  [SPEAKER_06]: After the evacuation, police searched the building, but so far have found nothing.
[01:17:41.610 --> 01:17:49.730]  [SPEAKER_06]: And a team of FBI agents and New York City police detectives is headed to Oklahoma City to help investigate the car bombing of the Federal Building.
[01:17:49.730 --> 01:17:59.890]  [SPEAKER_06]: James Kallstrin, agent in charge of the FBI's New York City office, says the five agents making the trip helped reconstruct the 1993 World Trade Center bombing in New York.
[01:18:00.050 --> 01:18:07.970]  [SPEAKER_06]: The first deputy police commissioner, John Timoney, says that five city police detectives and a captain are also en route to the blast site in Oklahoma.
[01:18:08.510 --> 01:18:12.590]  [SPEAKER_06]: That is the latest on the explosion in the Federal Building in Oklahoma City today.
[01:18:12.590 --> 01:18:16.110]  [SPEAKER_06]: Again, 19 confirmed dead in that blast today.
[01:18:16.330 --> 01:18:30.570]  [SPEAKER_06]: There is one report, unofficial report, saying that the Oklahoma City Ambulance Service has been told to expect as many as 80 bodies to be brought to a morgue that has been set up about 10 blocks from the building that exploded this morning.
[01:18:30.830 --> 01:18:34.370]  [SPEAKER_06]: We'll have more details on it in our newscast as we get them.
[01:18:34.510 --> 01:18:38.830]  [SPEAKER_06]: For the moment, I'm Jose Santiago in New York for the WBAI Evening News.
[01:18:38.830 --> 01:18:41.790]  [SPEAKER_06]: We go now to the Pacifica Network News in Washington.
[01:18:42.590 --> 01:18:49.990]  [SPEAKER_29]: A huge explosion ripped apart a federal office building in downtown Oklahoma City about 9 in the morning local time.
[01:18:50.230 --> 01:18:54.950]  [SPEAKER_29]: A nurse told a local television station, at least 78 people were killed.
[01:18:55.210 --> 01:18:57.970]  [SPEAKER_29]: At least 17 of the victims were said to be children.
[01:18:58.290 --> 01:19:00.310]  [SPEAKER_29]: There was a daycare center in the building.
[01:19:00.550 --> 01:19:02.950]  [SPEAKER_29]: More than 500 people worked in the building.
[01:19:03.150 --> 01:19:10.730]  [SPEAKER_29]: It housed offices for the FBI, DEA, the Agriculture Department, and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms.
[01:19:10.730 --> 01:19:13.910]  [SPEAKER_29]: Hundreds of people are being treated in nearby hospitals.
[01:19:14.150 --> 01:19:19.010]  [SPEAKER_29]: The FBI says the blast was a car bomb carrying over 1,000 pounds of explosives.
[01:19:19.390 --> 01:19:24.930]  [SPEAKER_29]: White House Press Secretary Mike McCurry told reporters that President Clinton is very troubled by the explosion.
[01:19:25.370 --> 01:19:36.550]  [SPEAKER_05]: He wants to make sure through proper law enforcement that everything is done as quickly as possible to bring whoever is responsible for this incident quickly to justice.
[01:19:36.550 --> 01:19:43.250]  [SPEAKER_29]: However, McCurry cautioned that at this time, around 2 in the afternoon on the East Coast, very little is known.
[01:19:43.550 --> 01:19:49.610]  [SPEAKER_05]: It was way too early at this point to draw any conclusions about what has happened in Oklahoma City.
[01:19:49.830 --> 01:19:57.150]  [SPEAKER_05]: Clearly there's been a devastating explosion that's occurred at this federal building, that the cause of it is unknown.
[01:19:57.790 --> 01:20:05.410]  [SPEAKER_05]: Those responsible are unknown at this point, and we'll have to develop that very carefully in the course of the coming hours and days.
[01:20:05.670 --> 01:20:09.810]  [SPEAKER_29]: An FBI team has been sent to the site of the Oklahoma City blast.
[01:20:10.090 --> 01:20:15.410]  [SPEAKER_29]: Today marks the second anniversary of the federal raid on the Branch Davidian compound in Waco, Texas.
[01:20:15.650 --> 01:20:22.690]  [SPEAKER_29]: At least 71 people died in that raid, ending a 51-day standoff between federal officials and the religious group.
[01:20:22.690 --> 01:20:30.490]  [SPEAKER_29]: Turkey's Prime Minister, Tansu Chiller, says military operations against Kurdish rebels in northern Iraq are largely over.
[01:20:30.790 --> 01:20:32.430]  [SPEAKER_29]: Richard Holbrook of the U.S.
[01:20:32.530 --> 01:20:38.190]  [SPEAKER_29]: State Department says the Turkish leader told President Clinton that her country's troops will return home in weeks.
[01:20:38.410 --> 01:20:42.530]  [SPEAKER_28]: The operation would be limited in scope and duration, a matter of weeks.
[01:20:42.770 --> 01:20:49.650]  [SPEAKER_28]: As she has said publicly, the president repeated his view that this is of importance, and we attach high importance to it.
[01:20:49.750 --> 01:20:51.710]  [SPEAKER_28]: No specific timetable was discussed.
[01:20:51.710 --> 01:21:00.150]  [SPEAKER_29]: Holbrook said that Turkey's actions do not violate international law because it's self-defense against the PKK, a terrorist organization.
[01:21:00.570 --> 01:21:01.570]  [SPEAKER_29]: Today, the U.S.
[01:21:01.690 --> 01:21:06.650]  [SPEAKER_29]: Supreme Court ruled 5-4 that a death penalty inmate's conviction should be overturned.
[01:21:07.090 --> 01:21:11.990]  [SPEAKER_29]: Curtis Lee Kiles had been found guilty of murdering a woman in 1984 in New Orleans.
[01:21:12.210 --> 01:21:25.530]  [SPEAKER_29]: But Kiles maintained prosecutors had failed to disclose evidence that might have cleared him, including statements by eyewitnesses, a statement by a police informant, and a computer printout of licenses of cars parked at the crime scene.
[01:21:25.770 --> 01:21:35.750]  [SPEAKER_29]: The majority of justices found that if there is a reasonable probability that suppressed evidence would have altered the outcome, then there is a constitutional error, and so there should be a new trial.
[01:21:36.270 --> 01:21:41.090]  [SPEAKER_29]: A mysterious research project at the Pentagon has come under a cloud of suspicion.
[01:21:41.090 --> 01:21:55.510]  [SPEAKER_29]: The High Frequency Active Auroral Research Project, or the HARP, under construction at an Air Force base near Gakona, Alaska, is the first step toward creating the most powerful ionospheric heater and electromagnetic transmitter on Earth.
[01:21:55.770 --> 01:22:07.410]  [SPEAKER_29]: The ionospheric heater device would use electromagnetic energy to heat up the ionosphere and raise the temperature, creating any number of interesting effects which the Defense Department thinks might be useful.
[01:22:07.410 --> 01:22:13.190]  [SPEAKER_29]: But despite this major scientific feat, the HARP has received precious little press coverage.
[01:22:13.410 --> 01:22:24.210]  [SPEAKER_29]: That's true in part because HARP is described as either an innocuous scientific research project or a potentially ominous defense weapon, depending on which government memo you believe.
[01:22:24.650 --> 01:22:30.790]  [SPEAKER_29]: Gar Smith, a writer for the Earth Island Journal, came across a public and a private Pentagon description of the project.
[01:22:31.110 --> 01:22:34.230]  [SPEAKER_29]: The latter was obtained through the Freedom of Information Act.
[01:22:34.230 --> 01:22:48.850]  [SPEAKER_17]: The public document describes HARP as being a project that would enhance present civilian capabilities in communications and would also, quote, provide significant scientific advancements.
[01:22:49.970 --> 01:23:01.630]  [SPEAKER_17]: And the public document also says that this is a purely scientific research facility which represents no threat to potential adversaries and therefore would have no value as a military target, unquote.
[01:23:02.370 --> 01:23:04.850]  [SPEAKER_17]: And you might wonder why they threw that line in there.
[01:23:05.990 --> 01:23:13.950]  [SPEAKER_17]: Well, in February 1990, there was an Air Force Navy document that told another version of the HARP story.
[01:23:14.590 --> 01:23:27.230]  [SPEAKER_17]: And this document claims that, quote, So, from a defense point of view, the most exciting and challenging part of the experiment is the potential to control atmospheric processes for military objectives.
[01:23:28.790 --> 01:23:42.610]  [SPEAKER_17]: And some of those objectives included disrupting electronic communications over a large part of the globe while allowing our defense forces to communicate.
[01:23:42.610 --> 01:23:51.470]  [SPEAKER_17]: There's also an interest in using the ionosphere to communicate with deeply submerged nuclear submarines around the world.
[01:23:52.460 --> 01:24:03.890]  [SPEAKER_17]: And the document also said that the potential for significantly altering regions of the ionosphere is very desirable from a military perspective.
[01:24:03.890 --> 01:24:08.710]  [SPEAKER_17]: And it's hard to know exactly all the plans that they have in mind.
[01:24:10.250 --> 01:24:34.110]  [SPEAKER_17]: But we're concerned because it sounds a lot like something called an Eastland device, which would use a similar electromagnetic beam to not only create focusing mirrors in the ionosphere, but also could affect the upper atmosphere and change weather patterns.
[01:24:35.230 --> 01:24:43.210]  [SPEAKER_17]: Actually, a very interesting verb that the Defense Department used in its internal memo said they're interested in perturbing.
[01:24:43.390 --> 01:24:44.110]  [SPEAKER_17]: That's their word.
[01:24:44.250 --> 01:24:46.470]  [SPEAKER_17]: They want to perturb the atmosphere.
[01:24:46.790 --> 01:24:49.230]  [SPEAKER_17]: I'm sorry, perturb the ionosphere.
[01:24:49.850 --> 01:24:52.030]  [SPEAKER_17]: And see how it responds.
[01:24:53.190 --> 01:24:58.410]  [SPEAKER_29]: Now, I don't know about ionospheres, but when you perturb people, you disrupt them a little bit.
[01:24:59.070 --> 01:25:00.690]  [SPEAKER_17]: That's the other side of it, too.
[01:25:01.530 --> 01:25:04.870]  [SPEAKER_17]: The public document assures people that...
[01:25:04.870 --> 01:25:06.410]  [SPEAKER_17]: Here's a quote again.
[01:25:06.590 --> 01:25:10.970]  [SPEAKER_17]: Most of the high-energy beam would be emitted upward rather than toward the horizon.
[01:25:11.770 --> 01:25:20.850]  [SPEAKER_17]: But even in the public document, it later has a little line saying that to reduce the percentage of time, large signal levels would be transmitted toward large cities.
[01:25:21.750 --> 01:25:23.430]  [SPEAKER_17]: They would take special steps.
[01:25:23.630 --> 01:25:26.170]  [SPEAKER_17]: And the closest large cities are Fairbanks and Alaska.
[01:25:26.950 --> 01:25:42.690]  [SPEAKER_17]: And when we did a little more research into this, we found out that 80 to 90 percent of the experiments that would be planned with the ionospheric heater would redirect or refract energy back down toward the planet.
[01:25:44.070 --> 01:25:46.690]  [SPEAKER_17]: So the energy isn't all going upwards.
[01:25:47.730 --> 01:25:49.350]  [SPEAKER_17]: Some of it will be coming down.
[01:25:49.350 --> 01:25:53.930]  [SPEAKER_17]: And any place this energy goes, it can cause human problems.
[01:25:54.750 --> 01:26:01.830]  [SPEAKER_17]: It can cause problems with fatigue, sleepiness, cataracts, leukemia.
[01:26:02.150 --> 01:26:09.690]  [SPEAKER_17]: It's even possible that people flying through the beam in an airplane could have their HAARP pacemakers affected.
[01:26:09.890 --> 01:26:13.790]  [SPEAKER_17]: That's a problem that was spelled out in some of the documentation.
[01:26:13.790 --> 01:26:18.690]  [SPEAKER_29]: Gar Smith first wrote about the HAARP project last fall for the Earth Island Journal.
[01:26:18.890 --> 01:26:23.870]  [SPEAKER_29]: It's included in Project's censored yearbook as the ninth most censored story of 1994.
[01:26:24.670 --> 01:26:30.610]  [SPEAKER_29]: Today is the second anniversary of the fatal ending of the federal siege of the Branch Davidian compound in Waco, Texas.
[01:26:30.610 --> 01:26:41.370]  [SPEAKER_29]: Ever since that siege and the deaths of two white separatists and Randy Weaver's family in Idaho, ad hoc citizens' militias have been cropping up around the country, particularly in the West.
[01:26:41.590 --> 01:26:50.690]  [SPEAKER_29]: No one seems to be keeping an accurate count of the number of people training in groups with semi-automatic assault rifles, but some estimate as high as the tens of thousands.
[01:26:50.690 --> 01:26:57.430]  [SPEAKER_29]: These militias are also capitalizing on frustrations with federal regulations, the growing property rights movement.
[01:26:57.630 --> 01:27:02.310]  [SPEAKER_29]: And as Lee Robartos reports, white supremacists have been attracted to the movement as well.
[01:27:03.350 --> 01:27:16.030]  [SPEAKER_10]: We would like to open the meeting by having a pledge of allegiance, and we are pledging allegiance to the flag of the United States of America as a republic under the original Constitution.
[01:27:16.030 --> 01:27:21.950]  [SPEAKER_03]: At a Militia of Montana meeting last year, participants emphasized the Bill of Rights.
[01:27:22.110 --> 01:27:28.570]  [SPEAKER_03]: To most militia members, the first ten amendments are divinely inspired, and all others are the work of man.
[01:27:28.850 --> 01:27:31.390]  [SPEAKER_03]: Many believe the Constitution is under attack.
[01:27:32.090 --> 01:27:41.130]  [SPEAKER_03]: John Trachman, who co-founded what's now called the Militia of Montana 20 years ago with his brother, doesn't mince words when asked why a militia is necessary.
[01:27:41.130 --> 01:27:44.730]  [SPEAKER_16]: Because the federal agents shot a woman in the face and her son in the back.
[01:27:46.050 --> 01:27:49.010]  [SPEAKER_16]: Because the federal agents burned children at the stake in Waco.
[01:27:51.350 --> 01:27:57.110]  [SPEAKER_16]: Because the federal government's been passing laws contrary to the oath they've swore to uphold.
[01:27:57.310 --> 01:28:00.790]  [SPEAKER_03]: Trachman describes his militia as an educational enterprise.
[01:28:01.170 --> 01:28:13.630]  [SPEAKER_03]: Indeed, the Militia of Montana catalog features videos of New World Order seminars and manuals with titles like Sniper Training and Employment and Guerrilla Warfare and Special Forces Ops.
[01:28:13.850 --> 01:28:19.690]  [SPEAKER_03]: The idea, Trachman says, is for fellow patriots to be ready to defend against the coming tyranny.
[01:28:19.970 --> 01:28:26.290]  [SPEAKER_03]: Trachman and other militiamen believe that President Clinton is rapidly preparing to declare martial law.
[01:28:26.290 --> 01:28:29.330]  [SPEAKER_03]: His evidence for this claim includes U.N.
[01:28:29.770 --> 01:28:31.370]  [SPEAKER_03]: military equipment spotted at U.S.
[01:28:31.790 --> 01:28:40.130]  [SPEAKER_03]: military facilities, foreign troops training in the U.S., and recently enacted gun legislation aimed at taking arms out of citizens' hands.
[01:28:40.850 --> 01:28:53.590]  [SPEAKER_03]: Trachman says he has documents proving the United Nations is planning to enact a one-world government by the year 2000 and reduce the world's population by two-thirds, not through birth control, but through outright murder.
[01:28:53.590 --> 01:28:54.750]  [SPEAKER_16]: We've got the same enemy.
[01:28:54.950 --> 01:28:58.250]  [SPEAKER_16]: They're taking food away from Americans right now and putting it in underground U.N.
[01:28:58.330 --> 01:29:01.650]  [SPEAKER_16]: bunkers, and you're going to beg to eat, or you're going to die.
[01:29:01.890 --> 01:29:08.450]  [SPEAKER_16]: The whole idea of the administration that runs this country is to reduce our population by two-thirds.
[01:29:08.810 --> 01:29:16.830]  [SPEAKER_03]: Militia of Montana researcher and spokesman Bob Fletcher says the term militia originated with the Second Amendment of the Constitution.
[01:29:16.830 --> 01:29:31.230]  [SPEAKER_11]: As long as the people can maintain armament, then there would be a less likelihood of having a tyrannical control of government, which we originally had when the country was created.
[01:29:31.590 --> 01:29:37.410]  [SPEAKER_11]: And it was stepping away from a dictatorial monarchy at that time.
[01:29:37.570 --> 01:29:43.210]  [SPEAKER_03]: To the human rights community, the rhetoric of the militia supporters and their leaders is cause for concern.
[01:29:43.210 --> 01:29:55.570]  [SPEAKER_03]: For example, in a Militia of Montana video, Fletcher tells fellow patriots that a book designed to make children more tolerant of gays, Heather Has Two Mommies, is straight out of the Clinton White House.
[01:29:55.770 --> 01:30:00.190]  [SPEAKER_11]: I used to read golden books when I was a youngster, and it was C-spot run, for crying out loud.
[01:30:00.250 --> 01:30:01.110]  [SPEAKER_11]: That's how I learned to read.
[01:30:01.770 --> 01:30:04.430]  [SPEAKER_11]: I certainly don't need Heather Has Two Mommies.
[01:30:04.970 --> 01:30:08.210]  [SPEAKER_11]: That's serious trash being brought into our schools.
[01:30:08.210 --> 01:30:08.310]  [SPEAKER_11]: I think boom, I think this was the one being the 46 ge�, I didn't have a choice from the North Solomon.
[01:30:08.370 --> 01:30:08.390]  [SPEAKER_11]: I looked at this world as a historian on the left and a former researcher on the left and over zeros.
[01:30:09.170 --> 01:30:09.330]  Hopefully that was a different type of profile on the left, caractyl scared, and again, But then, I think this has been incredibly Word to give.