Off The Hook - 1995-05-17

[00:30.900 --> 00:35.920]  [SPEAKER_26]: The Titanic started life as a sort of response to what can happen.
[00:35.940 --> 00:40.100]  [SPEAKER_26]: What kind of piece of music would a conceptual piece of music be?
[00:40.400 --> 00:45.720]  [SPEAKER_26]: The factual information can be transformed into poetry.
[00:46.140 --> 00:49.400]  [SPEAKER_26]: The band were playing, if you like, on the ocean surface.
[00:49.720 --> 00:52.080]  [SPEAKER_26]: And they continued to play until the moment...
[00:52.540 --> 00:56.840]  [SPEAKER_26]: Well, in fact, we don't know when they stopped because they were suddenly playing as the ship went down.
[00:57.320 --> 00:58.900]  [SPEAKER_00]: Technical Ecstasy.
[00:59.320 --> 01:00.980]  [SPEAKER_00]: Wednesday at midnight.
[01:00.980 --> 01:06.200]  [SPEAKER_00]: Here on listener-supported WBAI, non-commercial radio, in New York.
[01:06.880 --> 01:07.960]  [SPEAKER_00]: Wednesday at midnight.
[01:08.520 --> 01:09.860]  [SPEAKER_00]: Wednesday at midnight.
[01:10.360 --> 01:10.460]  [SPEAKER_00]: Wednesday at midnight.
[01:11.060 --> 01:14.440]  [SPEAKER_07]: I don't want to have anything to do with any race.
[01:14.880 --> 01:16.500]  [SPEAKER_07]: Any race of dogs.
[01:17.780 --> 01:18.860]  [SPEAKER_07]: Two-legged dogs.
[01:19.160 --> 01:24.760]  [SPEAKER_07]: That will fix four-legged dogs on innocent, harmless women, children, and babies.
[01:25.860 --> 01:27.680]  [SPEAKER_07]: I'm not an integrationist.
[01:27.840 --> 01:28.760]  [SPEAKER_07]: Never could be.
[01:29.120 --> 01:31.100]  [SPEAKER_07]: I couldn't integrate with my enemy.
[01:31.440 --> 01:33.200]  [SPEAKER_07]: And I know who my enemy is.
[01:33.900 --> 01:40.780]  [SPEAKER_07]: The injustice that has been inflicted upon Negroes in this country by Uncle Sam is criminal.
[01:41.040 --> 01:43.040]  [SPEAKER_07]: Uncle Sam is criminal.
[01:43.820 --> 01:44.900]  [SPEAKER_06]: Malcolm X.
[01:45.140 --> 01:46.240]  [SPEAKER_06]: 36 hours.
[01:46.240 --> 01:52.280]  [SPEAKER_06]: Beginning Friday, May 19th, Malcolm X's 70th birthday, starting at 6 a.m.
[01:53.180 --> 01:57.180]  [SPEAKER_07]: We declare our rights on this earth to be a man.
[01:57.480 --> 01:58.720]  [SPEAKER_07]: To be a human being.
[01:59.020 --> 02:01.020]  [SPEAKER_07]: To be respected as a human being.
[02:01.220 --> 02:03.120]  [SPEAKER_07]: To be given the rights of a human being.
[02:03.140 --> 02:05.440]  [SPEAKER_17]: To be or not to be.
[02:06.980 --> 02:10.720]  [SPEAKER_17]: Now that ain't a question that too many black folks be asking.
[02:11.980 --> 02:16.020]  [SPEAKER_17]: We be too busy just being...
[02:16.020 --> 02:17.720]  [SPEAKER_17]: Any mean...
[02:19.520 --> 02:24.100]  [SPEAKER_06]: Only on WBAI 99.5 FM.
[02:24.480 --> 02:28.860]  [SPEAKER_25]: Where it's seven minutes after nine o'clock and hey, we're almost an hour early.
[02:28.860 --> 02:31.320]  [SPEAKER_25]: This is an expanded edition of Off the Hook.
[02:37.520 --> 02:39.520]  [SPEAKER_17]: The telephone keeps ringing.
[02:39.980 --> 02:42.120]  [SPEAKER_17]: So I ripped it off the wall.
[02:43.020 --> 02:45.100]  [SPEAKER_17]: I cut myself while shaving.
[02:45.700 --> 02:47.760]  [SPEAKER_17]: Now I can't make a cough.
[02:48.560 --> 02:50.460]  [SPEAKER_17]: It could be yet much worse.
[02:51.100 --> 02:53.100]  [SPEAKER_16]: But if there could be wood.
[02:53.340 --> 02:56.020]  [SPEAKER_16]: Bum-diddly-bom for the best, expect the worst.
[02:56.560 --> 02:58.540]  [SPEAKER_16]: I hope that's understood.
[02:58.760 --> 02:59.640]  [SPEAKER_16]: Bum-diddly-bom!
[03:36.780 --> 03:38.400]  [SPEAKER_13]: Bum-diddly-bom.
[03:38.460 --> 03:42.700]  [SPEAKER_13]: Bum-diddly-bom.
[03:55.900 --> 04:37.690]  [SPEAKER_26]: Bum-diddly-bom.
[07:48.280 --> 07:50.280]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's brutal and inexcusable.
[09:23.300 --> 09:27.600]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah, that's our opening theme for tonight.
[09:27.880 --> 09:31.040]  [SPEAKER_25]: Of course, it was Baparni, but we all know that.
[09:32.080 --> 09:35.520]  [SPEAKER_25]: Intermixed from the What is Bangra CD.
[09:36.080 --> 09:38.020]  [SPEAKER_25]: And you know, that didn't bring in very many calls.
[09:38.280 --> 09:45.420]  [SPEAKER_25]: I was sort of hoping people would take the hint and call in and pledge support while we were playing that, but I guess I have to be a little bit more direct.
[09:45.860 --> 09:47.000]  [SPEAKER_25]: But this is Off the Hook.
[09:47.200 --> 09:49.380]  [SPEAKER_25]: We're on for two hours, 45 minutes tonight.
[09:49.560 --> 09:52.920]  [SPEAKER_25]: This is Emmanuel Goldstein, and the next voice you hear will be that of fiber optic.
[09:53.280 --> 09:53.700]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yes.
[09:54.140 --> 10:05.780]  [SPEAKER_25]: And that's what we're going to be doing tonight, is talking about various other things, such as high technology, the Internet, the future, the past, and the somewhat troubling present.
[10:06.580 --> 10:11.460]  [SPEAKER_25]: And, of course, we'll be asking for your support at 212-279-3400.
[10:11.620 --> 10:13.780]  [SPEAKER_25]: But, no, no, don't call yet.
[10:15.040 --> 10:16.520]  [SPEAKER_25]: All the lines are tied up.
[10:16.680 --> 10:17.740]  [SPEAKER_25]: This is such a hassle.
[10:17.880 --> 10:19.300]  [SPEAKER_25]: Look, people, don't call in yet.
[10:19.460 --> 10:24.340]  [SPEAKER_25]: I mean, you know, just save your wallets for a few minutes until we tell you what we have.
[10:24.340 --> 10:28.180]  [SPEAKER_25]: People are so eager to just throw their money to us.
[10:28.600 --> 10:29.360]  [SPEAKER_25]: Actually, I'm joking.
[10:29.500 --> 10:32.220]  [SPEAKER_25]: There's not a single line lit, but I figured I'd be sarcastic.
[10:32.900 --> 10:43.160]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, we have all kinds of special things for you tonight to help make it a little bit easier and to help us reach our goals.
[10:43.780 --> 10:45.080]  [SPEAKER_25]: So far, we're at zero.
[10:45.440 --> 10:50.820]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, now we're starting off, and that's a good place to be at the beginning, is zero, because we haven't asked for anything yet.
[10:51.500 --> 10:59.120]  [SPEAKER_25]: But, we expect that to change, because we have a few special things to offer to you, and we'll be doing that throughout the course of the evening.
[10:59.140 --> 11:01.340]  [SPEAKER_25]: We'll be on until 11.45 tonight.
[11:01.620 --> 11:09.260]  [SPEAKER_25]: But, before we get started with that, Friber, anything new with you as far as the world of the net?
[11:09.760 --> 11:11.020]  [SPEAKER_21]: The world of the net.
[11:11.120 --> 11:11.660]  [SPEAKER_21]: Things like that.
[11:11.920 --> 11:12.840]  [SPEAKER_21]: Let's see, what's new?
[11:13.960 --> 11:24.500]  [SPEAKER_21]: Actually, I spoke to someone at Motorola, who everyone probably knows is a really top manufacturer of beepers and cellular phones and so on.
[11:25.140 --> 11:33.020]  [SPEAKER_21]: Motorola came out with an ISDN terminal adapter that was previously known as the TA-210.
[11:33.440 --> 11:39.160]  [SPEAKER_21]: But, that'd probably be kind of hard to remember, so they improved it a little bit and changed the name to the BitSurfer.
[11:39.320 --> 11:39.760]  [SPEAKER_25]: There you go.
[11:40.320 --> 11:48.020]  [SPEAKER_21]: And, the BitSurfer, seems like it's going to be geared towards more artistic people, since it's going to be released in an assortment of colors.
[11:48.560 --> 11:51.660]  [SPEAKER_21]: Just as the Bravo Plus beepers are.
[11:52.440 --> 11:54.960]  [SPEAKER_25]: So, well, first of all, why don't you tell us what this thing is?
[11:55.200 --> 11:55.400]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, basically.
[11:55.400 --> 11:56.340]  [SPEAKER_25]: Then we can talk about the colors.
[11:57.140 --> 12:00.680]  [SPEAKER_21]: The Motorola BitSurfer is an ISDN terminal adapter.
[12:00.700 --> 12:02.380]  [SPEAKER_21]: It's one of these all-in-one boxes.
[12:02.440 --> 12:08.540]  [SPEAKER_21]: It gives you a network terminator built in, so you can plug it directly into your phone line with the ISDN service on it.
[12:08.660 --> 12:14.120]  [SPEAKER_25]: So, okay, now we have ISDN service now, so the next step for us would be to get one of these terminal servers.
[12:14.120 --> 12:14.580]  [SPEAKER_25]: Right.
[12:14.800 --> 12:25.220]  [SPEAKER_21]: You get one of these terminal adapters, you plug it into the wall, and what it provides you with is a real analog interface, so you can plug in a normal telephone, fax machine, or modem if you wanted to.
[12:26.000 --> 12:32.300]  [SPEAKER_21]: And it also provides you with a high-speed serial port, which you can connect to the serial port on your Mac or PC.
[12:34.240 --> 12:40.680]  [SPEAKER_21]: And I think it's a really nice all-in-one piece of hardware if you want to get ISDN service without the muss or the fuss.
[12:41.640 --> 12:42.340]  [SPEAKER_25]: Sounds good.
[12:42.700 --> 12:45.520]  [SPEAKER_25]: And is this available right now?
[12:45.760 --> 12:47.460]  [SPEAKER_21]: It's coming out fairly soon.
[12:47.640 --> 12:50.400]  [SPEAKER_21]: It should be out within the next couple of months, I believe.
[12:51.640 --> 12:54.720]  [SPEAKER_21]: And it's supposed to cost, I believe, between $300 and $400.
[12:55.300 --> 12:55.660]  [SPEAKER_25]: Really?
[12:55.720 --> 12:56.520]  [SPEAKER_25]: Which is relatively cheap.
[12:56.520 --> 12:59.920]  [SPEAKER_25]: Would that be everything that somebody would need getting ISDN phone service?
[13:00.040 --> 13:01.840]  [SPEAKER_21]: There's nothing else they would need to buy.
[13:02.060 --> 13:02.400]  [SPEAKER_25]: Really?
[13:02.660 --> 13:07.220]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah, it's like the perfect introductory ISDN product for a single user, the end user.
[13:07.380 --> 13:08.240]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now talk about the colors.
[13:08.720 --> 13:17.300]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah, I noticed on their web page, which people can check out if they point their browser to www.motmot.com.
[13:18.980 --> 13:20.560]  [SPEAKER_25]: Is that Mott as in Mott Street?
[13:20.900 --> 13:21.780]  [SPEAKER_25]: No, 1T.
[13:22.020 --> 13:22.780]  [SPEAKER_25]: Mott as in Motley.
[13:23.060 --> 13:23.200]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay.
[13:23.340 --> 13:24.380]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah, Mott as in Motley.
[13:25.080 --> 13:32.340]  [SPEAKER_21]: And if you go to alphabetical listing of products under B, you'll see BitSurfer, which incidentally is spelled S-U-R-F-R.
[13:32.440 --> 13:32.940]  [SPEAKER_21]: There's no E.
[13:33.680 --> 13:34.120]  [SPEAKER_21]: Okay.
[13:34.360 --> 13:35.700]  [SPEAKER_21]: It's part of the whole trend thing.
[13:35.700 --> 13:36.240]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah, trendy.
[13:36.740 --> 13:43.300]  [SPEAKER_21]: But I noticed on the main page for the product info, they had two BitSurfers depicted.
[13:43.600 --> 13:48.260]  [SPEAKER_21]: One of them was black, and the other one was purple with gold wetterring.
[13:49.120 --> 13:54.280]  [SPEAKER_21]: So one of the first questions I had when I called up Motorola was, you know, how did the two models differ?
[13:54.500 --> 13:56.280]  [SPEAKER_21]: I noticed there was a purple and a black one.
[13:56.640 --> 14:00.340]  [SPEAKER_21]: And the guy informed me that apparently they were both exactly the same.
[14:00.520 --> 14:01.560]  [SPEAKER_25]: Just the colors.
[14:01.860 --> 14:03.040]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah, just the colors were different.
[14:03.900 --> 14:07.280]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, it's to match the kids carrying the school bags with the translucent colors, you know.
[14:07.460 --> 14:09.540]  [SPEAKER_21]: So I said, so then I clicked in my head.
[14:09.680 --> 14:13.280]  [SPEAKER_21]: I said, gee, you guys are going to do the same thing as you did with the beepers, aren't you?
[14:13.360 --> 14:14.120]  [SPEAKER_21]: With different colors.
[14:14.240 --> 14:15.160]  [SPEAKER_25]: I want a clear one, then.
[14:15.420 --> 14:15.660]  [SPEAKER_21]: Do you?
[14:15.780 --> 14:16.960]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah, I want a transparent one.
[14:17.300 --> 14:18.580]  [SPEAKER_25]: Hey, you see all the components moving.
[14:18.820 --> 14:19.000]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah.
[14:20.780 --> 14:21.100]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah.
[14:21.460 --> 14:23.880]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, well, that sounds fascinating.
[14:24.160 --> 14:24.980]  [SPEAKER_25]: So are you going to get one?
[14:25.280 --> 14:25.920]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah, definitely.
[14:26.460 --> 14:29.700]  [SPEAKER_21]: I'm supposed to be demoing one fairly soon, and I do plan on buying one.
[14:29.700 --> 14:31.940]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, well, we'll have to keep the folks updated.
[14:32.380 --> 14:36.140]  [SPEAKER_25]: Technically, the quest for ISDN is still on, although the NYNEX part of it seems to be over for now.
[14:36.220 --> 14:37.840]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah, they've kind of fulfilled their end of the bargain.
[14:37.920 --> 14:46.400]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah, although we don't know because we're not really using our ISDN lines yet if, in fact, they are still working because they could just disconnect them and we wouldn't know until we plug something in.
[14:46.560 --> 14:47.020]  [SPEAKER_23]: That's true.
[14:47.160 --> 14:49.500]  [SPEAKER_25]: Because that happened to one of my other phone lines, one of the ones I do use.
[14:49.600 --> 14:51.420]  [SPEAKER_25]: I happen to notice that it wasn't working at all.
[14:51.660 --> 14:52.560]  [SPEAKER_25]: And do you know what they did?
[14:52.560 --> 14:53.700]  [SPEAKER_25]: They came on a Sunday.
[14:54.640 --> 14:58.940]  [SPEAKER_25]: I reported a hum on the line on Saturday, and they said they wouldn't be able to get to it until the next week.
[14:59.040 --> 15:00.140]  [SPEAKER_25]: They came on Sunday.
[15:00.360 --> 15:01.140]  [SPEAKER_25]: Woke me up.
[15:01.400 --> 15:01.880]  [SPEAKER_25]: Woke me up.
[15:01.980 --> 15:07.380]  [SPEAKER_25]: And to ask me what was wrong, I mean, they didn't have it on their form, apparently, but I was amazed that they came on a Sunday.
[15:08.560 --> 15:13.300]  [SPEAKER_25]: Not amazed enough not to be angry that they woke me up, but I was amazed.
[15:13.860 --> 15:14.340]  [SPEAKER_25]: All right.
[15:14.500 --> 15:16.460]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, that's a little bit of an update there.
[15:16.480 --> 15:18.280]  [SPEAKER_25]: We'll have more coming up in just a little bit.
[15:19.300 --> 15:21.080]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now, remember why we're all here today, folks.
[15:21.220 --> 15:23.580]  [SPEAKER_25]: We're here because we need to keep the station going.
[15:23.580 --> 15:33.660]  [SPEAKER_25]: We need to keep this radio program strong and to keep topics like this, like the many ones that we've heard in the past, on the air.
[15:35.180 --> 15:37.340]  [SPEAKER_25]: And we'll have updates on the Bernie S.
[15:37.540 --> 15:41.040]  [SPEAKER_25]: situation, on the Kevin Mitnick story in just a little bit as well.
[15:41.720 --> 15:44.580]  [SPEAKER_25]: But we do need you to call 212-279-3400.
[15:44.680 --> 15:48.220]  [SPEAKER_25]: Today, we have a special deal, but we only have five of them.
[15:48.900 --> 15:52.280]  [SPEAKER_25]: You might want to even start calling before I describe it because, you know, in case you want one.
[15:52.280 --> 15:54.500]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, we only have five of these.
[15:54.900 --> 16:05.340]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now, courtesy of the Internet service in New York called Escape.com, we have five, what do we call this, PPP accounts?
[16:05.360 --> 16:05.840]  [SPEAKER_25]: Is that right?
[16:05.960 --> 16:07.660]  [SPEAKER_25]: They're Roman Kazan, proprietor of Escape.
[16:08.480 --> 16:09.000]  [SPEAKER_22]: Right.
[16:09.120 --> 16:10.640]  [SPEAKER_22]: They're PPP and Shell accounts.
[16:10.760 --> 16:11.180]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay.
[16:11.180 --> 16:24.620]  [SPEAKER_25]: So, you're going to describe for us what PPP accounts are, but first I'm going to say if you call 212-279-3400, first five callers who pledge $150 will get a six-month unlimited access PPP account.
[16:24.800 --> 16:27.880]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now, for the benefit of the people out there, what is that?
[16:29.440 --> 16:34.320]  [SPEAKER_22]: Okay, PPP actually connects you directly to the Internet as if you are a node on the Internet.
[16:34.660 --> 16:37.680]  [SPEAKER_22]: For instance, students at universities have this kind of access.
[16:38.000 --> 16:38.400]  [SPEAKER_22]: Mm-hmm.
[16:38.840 --> 16:40.680]  [SPEAKER_22]: It will connect you through a modem.
[16:42.200 --> 16:42.700]  [SPEAKER_22]: Uh-huh.
[16:42.700 --> 16:43.700]  [SPEAKER_22]: Can I just do this in a few minutes?
[16:43.840 --> 16:44.220]  [SPEAKER_22]: I'm sorry.
[16:46.620 --> 16:47.120]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah.
[16:47.800 --> 17:01.480]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, well, while you're trying to collect yourself there, PPP is a service that allows you to have full access to the net as if you're a site, as if you are somebody...
[17:01.480 --> 17:02.900]  [SPEAKER_25]: Father, maybe you could explain this better.
[17:03.720 --> 17:04.300]  [SPEAKER_25]: Go ahead.
[17:04.940 --> 17:05.300]  [SPEAKER_21]: Should I?
[17:05.520 --> 17:05.720]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yes.
[17:05.860 --> 17:05.940]  [SPEAKER_21]: All right.
[17:06.980 --> 17:09.040]  [SPEAKER_21]: PPP is the point-to-point protocol.
[17:09.220 --> 17:19.620]  [SPEAKER_21]: It basically allows you to connect your PC or Mac or what have you directly to the Internet using a normal dial-up line with a high-speed modem and allows you to do various things like surf the web.
[17:20.140 --> 17:30.700]  [SPEAKER_21]: I use the term surf loosely and allows you to use Mosaic or Netscape, for example, the graphical web browsers that I'm sure people may or may not have heard lots about.
[17:31.680 --> 17:32.600]  [SPEAKER_21]: And, uh...
[17:32.600 --> 17:34.220]  [SPEAKER_25]: This is like the wave.
[17:34.800 --> 17:36.080]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's not the wave of the future anymore.
[17:36.220 --> 17:38.060]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's the wave of the present because...
[17:38.060 --> 17:43.200]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah, it seems to be where it's at right now as far as people and the net are concerned.
[17:43.200 --> 17:54.920]  [SPEAKER_21]: It's like on the one hand you can have access just strictly to, say, an online service or, say, a UNIX shell and use commands that would allow you to access Internet services.
[17:55.560 --> 18:00.680]  [SPEAKER_21]: But with Slippr PPP access, it's as if your computer is directly connected to the net.
[18:01.480 --> 18:02.360]  [SPEAKER_21]: So, uh...
[18:02.360 --> 18:04.360]  [SPEAKER_21]: You could take advantage of, uh...
[18:04.360 --> 18:07.060]  [SPEAKER_21]: all kinds of services directly, which you couldn't ordinarily do.
[18:07.240 --> 18:11.140]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, let's just show an example of someone with a shell account.
[18:11.240 --> 18:13.480]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's where you get an actual prompt, a UNIX prompt.
[18:13.680 --> 18:18.140]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now, with PPP, though, you have a series of, what is it, icons?
[18:19.120 --> 18:34.160]  [SPEAKER_21]: Well, basically, with PPP, your computer negotiates with the service provider that you're subscribing to, which the service provider would issue you an actual address on the Internet, and which your PC at home is actually known by that address.
[18:34.160 --> 18:37.400]  [SPEAKER_25]: So, it's like you're just on the net yourself.
[18:37.640 --> 18:38.060]  [SPEAKER_21]: It's like being there.
[18:38.180 --> 18:39.100]  [SPEAKER_21]: It's like you've just kind of...
[18:39.100 --> 18:41.080]  [SPEAKER_21]: you've become an extension of the Internet itself.
[18:42.040 --> 18:44.840]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's something that we've just gotten over at 2600.
[18:45.040 --> 18:48.420]  [SPEAKER_25]: We have a PPP account, and it's changed everything.
[18:48.420 --> 18:52.940]  [SPEAKER_25]: You can just walk over to your computer, hit a button, see if you have mail.
[18:53.160 --> 18:55.160]  [SPEAKER_25]: You don't have to worry about busy signals.
[18:55.220 --> 18:58.040]  [SPEAKER_25]: You don't have to worry about constantly redialing and trying to get in.
[18:58.240 --> 18:59.420]  [SPEAKER_25]: So, it's really...
[18:59.420 --> 19:10.420]  [SPEAKER_25]: I would say this is something that if you've never really experienced the net, if you think you're into the net, you like the net, and you want to experience it to the fullest, this is something that you should try.
[19:10.500 --> 19:13.040]  [SPEAKER_25]: And I don't know how many we have left, but it's limited.
[19:13.280 --> 19:16.020]  [SPEAKER_25]: 212-279-3400 for every pledge of $150.
[19:16.380 --> 19:17.320]  [SPEAKER_25]: We only have five of these.
[19:18.260 --> 19:23.640]  [SPEAKER_25]: You'll get a six month PPP account, or Shell account too.
[19:23.700 --> 19:24.720]  [SPEAKER_25]: You can also use Shell.
[19:25.120 --> 19:26.340]  [SPEAKER_25]: They're not restricted at all.
[19:27.300 --> 19:29.340]  [SPEAKER_25]: 2escape.com, which is local to New York City.
[19:29.500 --> 19:38.640]  [SPEAKER_25]: So, if you're anywhere within 212 or 718, you will be able to access that without any cost whatsoever, other than a local phone call.
[19:38.900 --> 19:40.880]  [SPEAKER_25]: 212-279-3400.
[19:41.300 --> 19:42.620]  [SPEAKER_25]: That is our phone number.
[19:42.820 --> 19:47.480]  [SPEAKER_25]: Again, for a $150 pledge, we're offering that six month unlimited access.
[19:47.620 --> 19:48.680]  [SPEAKER_25]: You can call up.
[19:48.740 --> 19:49.780]  [SPEAKER_25]: You can make your pledge.
[19:50.000 --> 19:56.500]  [SPEAKER_25]: You can call up, and you can stay connected for six months from now, day and night.
[19:56.720 --> 19:57.500]  [SPEAKER_25]: You can do that.
[19:57.620 --> 19:58.320]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's how it works.
[19:58.380 --> 19:59.240]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's how the net works.
[19:59.760 --> 20:04.920]  [SPEAKER_25]: So, this is not Prodigy and AOL and CompuServe and all that garbage.
[20:05.200 --> 20:07.280]  [SPEAKER_25]: This is something completely different.
[20:07.940 --> 20:17.120]  [SPEAKER_25]: Because, unlike those services, true Internet access does not charge you tons and tons of money to do basic things.
[20:17.440 --> 20:24.400]  [SPEAKER_25]: Somebody I know recently, well, actually somebody I know second-hand, got an AOL bill for a month.
[20:24.400 --> 20:25.460]  [SPEAKER_25]: How much do you think it was?
[20:26.440 --> 20:26.880]  [SPEAKER_21]: $600.
[20:27.340 --> 20:27.460]  [SPEAKER_25]: Uh-uh.
[20:27.940 --> 20:28.740]  [SPEAKER_25]: $1,500.
[20:29.120 --> 20:29.940]  [SPEAKER_25]: $1,500.
[20:30.640 --> 20:32.140]  [SPEAKER_25]: And they're still on AOL.
[20:32.540 --> 20:36.560]  [SPEAKER_25]: You know, for $1,500 you'd think that maybe you were able to move away from AOL.
[20:36.680 --> 20:38.840]  [SPEAKER_25]: You know, that would be sort of a fee to break the habit.
[20:38.940 --> 20:41.860]  [SPEAKER_25]: But no, $1,500 and they're still just an AOL user.
[20:42.260 --> 20:43.580]  [SPEAKER_25]: You know, that is what people are doing.
[20:43.580 --> 20:44.480]  [SPEAKER_25]: One month.
[20:44.660 --> 20:45.200]  [SPEAKER_25]: One month.
[20:45.340 --> 20:57.240]  [SPEAKER_25]: So, we're saying for a tenth the price of what that foolish person did in one month, you can have six months unlimited access, you can do hundreds of times the amount of things that AOL permits you to do.
[20:58.060 --> 21:02.800]  [SPEAKER_25]: AOL people, I mean, I don't really have anything against them other than the fact that there's too damn many of them.
[21:03.300 --> 21:05.960]  [SPEAKER_25]: They don't really have a sense of what the net is all about.
[21:06.380 --> 21:09.620]  [SPEAKER_25]: You know, people on AOL get flamed all the time on USENET.
[21:09.700 --> 21:13.900]  [SPEAKER_25]: And the reason for that is because they just, they haven't been taught how the net works.
[21:14.120 --> 21:23.660]  [SPEAKER_25]: When you use your PPP from Escape, you'll have, you know, some sense of what's going on because you'll see other people that have been part of the whole process.
[21:23.940 --> 21:25.180]  [SPEAKER_25]: There are teachers there.
[21:25.280 --> 21:26.500]  [SPEAKER_25]: There are people that will guide you.
[21:26.580 --> 21:33.600]  [SPEAKER_25]: There are people that will be happy to show you the ropes and to gently correct you if you do something terribly wrong.
[21:34.480 --> 21:37.280]  [SPEAKER_25]: And that's just the way it is.
[21:39.060 --> 21:40.220]  [SPEAKER_25]: 212-279-3400.
[21:40.300 --> 21:41.660]  [SPEAKER_25]: We may have, they may all be gone.
[21:41.780 --> 21:42.120]  [SPEAKER_25]: I'm not sure.
[21:42.220 --> 21:44.000]  [SPEAKER_25]: We have about three or four lines taken.
[21:44.160 --> 21:47.120]  [SPEAKER_25]: So if you have your doubts, remember we take Visa and MasterCard.
[21:48.960 --> 21:50.100]  [SPEAKER_25]: So give us a call.
[21:50.200 --> 21:51.640]  [SPEAKER_25]: 212-279-3400.
[21:53.120 --> 21:55.500]  [SPEAKER_25]: And that's really about all I can say as far as that goes.
[21:55.520 --> 21:57.020]  [SPEAKER_25]: Any other words?
[21:57.700 --> 21:58.620]  [SPEAKER_22]: Roman, you going to try again?
[21:58.800 --> 21:59.900]  [SPEAKER_22]: Yeah, I'm sorry about before.
[21:59.980 --> 22:00.580]  [SPEAKER_22]: I was not prepared.
[22:00.900 --> 22:01.120]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay.
[22:01.740 --> 22:04.160]  [SPEAKER_22]: Basically, you remember a few weeks ago, we did iPhone.
[22:04.280 --> 22:06.620]  [SPEAKER_22]: We communicated with people all around the world on the Internet.
[22:06.800 --> 22:09.760]  [SPEAKER_22]: You could do that through a PPP account and only a PPP account.
[22:09.840 --> 22:10.080]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's right.
[22:10.140 --> 22:11.260]  [SPEAKER_25]: You cannot do that for Michelle.
[22:11.300 --> 22:11.860]  [SPEAKER_22]: many things you can do.
[22:12.000 --> 22:13.420]  [SPEAKER_25]: You cannot do that from a Michelle account.
[22:14.060 --> 22:18.300]  [SPEAKER_22]: And for that $150 price, you basically get complete Internet access.
[22:18.440 --> 22:19.600]  [SPEAKER_22]: There's nothing more than this.
[22:20.060 --> 22:21.360]  [SPEAKER_22]: This is the whole works.
[22:21.400 --> 22:22.620]  [SPEAKER_22]: You get a Michelle UNIX account.
[22:22.780 --> 22:24.380]  [SPEAKER_22]: You get a slip PPP account.
[22:25.740 --> 22:27.860]  [SPEAKER_22]: When you say full Internet access, this is it.
[22:28.000 --> 22:29.200]  [SPEAKER_22]: There's nothing more than this.
[22:29.880 --> 22:36.600]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, other than being a service provider like you, but I guess that's a step that not very many people are likely to take.
[22:36.740 --> 22:38.180]  [SPEAKER_25]: Tell us, you've been around now for how long?
[22:38.300 --> 22:39.460]  [SPEAKER_25]: How long has Escape.com been here?
[22:39.580 --> 22:40.540]  [SPEAKER_25]: About a year and a half now.
[22:40.640 --> 22:41.220]  [SPEAKER_25]: A year and a half.
[22:41.320 --> 22:42.640]  [SPEAKER_25]: And you've grown tremendously in that time.
[22:42.960 --> 22:43.260]  [SPEAKER_22]: Oh, God.
[22:43.380 --> 22:44.900]  [SPEAKER_22]: We're signing up people left and right now.
[22:45.940 --> 22:47.240]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, that's a good thing, isn't it?
[22:47.240 --> 22:48.000]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's something you want.
[22:48.080 --> 22:49.120]  [SPEAKER_25]: You want to see that happen.
[22:49.120 --> 22:50.580]  [SPEAKER_22]: It's a lot of work, but yes, it's great.
[22:51.060 --> 22:53.820]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now, Roman is not like all the other service providers.
[22:53.980 --> 22:57.180]  [SPEAKER_25]: This is not like NetCom and CompuServe and all that.
[22:57.380 --> 22:58.940]  [SPEAKER_25]: Roman started it up all by himself.
[22:59.420 --> 23:04.340]  [SPEAKER_25]: He's hired a few people to help him out and it's kind of like almost a family business.
[23:04.760 --> 23:07.220]  [SPEAKER_22]: Yeah, we have about like four or five people working for us now.
[23:07.380 --> 23:07.660]  [SPEAKER_22]: Mm-hmm.
[23:08.000 --> 23:09.620]  [SPEAKER_22]: And it grew.
[23:09.880 --> 23:11.300]  [SPEAKER_22]: It started from a bulletin board in 1987.
[23:11.920 --> 23:13.660]  [SPEAKER_25]: And Amiga bulletin board, I believe, right?
[23:13.860 --> 23:14.980]  [SPEAKER_22]: Commodore 64, actually.
[23:15.220 --> 23:15.380]  [SPEAKER_22]: Commodore 64.
[23:15.640 --> 23:17.800]  [SPEAKER_25]: So, I mean, you know, good things can come out of Commodores.
[23:18.200 --> 23:19.080]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's just living proof.
[23:20.460 --> 23:22.160]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, I'm just trying to dispel the rumors.
[23:22.200 --> 23:22.660]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, thanks.
[23:22.940 --> 23:23.100]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah.
[23:23.760 --> 23:29.300]  [SPEAKER_25]: So, if there's any left, give us a call at 212-279-3400 and ask our volunteers standing by.
[23:29.380 --> 23:31.120]  [SPEAKER_25]: Speaking of volunteers, we need volunteers.
[23:31.120 --> 23:42.000]  [SPEAKER_25]: So, if anyone out there feels like coming down to the radio station, helping out, answering the phones, either now or anytime, you can also call this very same number and say that you wish to become a volunteer.
[23:42.240 --> 23:44.240]  [SPEAKER_25]: 212-279-3400.
[23:44.820 --> 23:50.180]  [SPEAKER_25]: But once again, just to wrap this up, I'm assuming that if there are any left, there's maybe one or two.
[23:51.680 --> 23:53.520]  [SPEAKER_25]: 212-279-3400.
[23:54.240 --> 23:55.360]  [SPEAKER_25]: $150 pledge.
[23:55.540 --> 24:02.040]  [SPEAKER_25]: You will get six months unlimited access to escape.com via PPP and or shell access.
[24:02.360 --> 24:03.680]  [SPEAKER_25]: You won't beat that price.
[24:03.960 --> 24:11.960]  [SPEAKER_25]: You really won't as far as being able to support the radio station having unlimited access to the net in that particular way.
[24:12.220 --> 24:16.260]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's the kind of thing that doesn't come along all that often.
[24:16.380 --> 24:18.780]  [SPEAKER_22]: There's one more thing that's included which we didn't mention.
[24:19.140 --> 24:21.640]  [SPEAKER_22]: Everyone gets a personal web page with their account for free.
[24:21.780 --> 24:22.300]  [SPEAKER_22]: Oh, cool.
[24:22.440 --> 24:23.920]  [SPEAKER_22]: So they can even put up their own web page.
[24:24.240 --> 24:27.380]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, now, we have some web designers here, don't we?
[24:27.520 --> 24:27.940]  [SPEAKER_25]: Oh, yeah.
[24:28.120 --> 24:30.560]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, someone come up and tell us what webs are like.
[24:30.740 --> 24:32.000]  [SPEAKER_25]: What a web page is like.
[24:32.000 --> 24:33.720]  [SPEAKER_25]: What can you do with a web page?
[24:34.060 --> 24:37.920]  [SPEAKER_25]: Try to move the microphone as much as possible to make all the noise you possibly can.
[24:38.780 --> 24:39.620]  [SPEAKER_03]: All right, go ahead.
[24:39.780 --> 24:41.080]  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, what is a web page?
[24:41.080 --> 24:41.760]  [SPEAKER_03]: Who are you first?
[24:42.920 --> 24:44.800]  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, my name is Jim Vicente.
[24:45.040 --> 24:50.280]  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm half-owner and principal of Esoteric Resources Incorporated.
[24:50.720 --> 24:55.960]  [SPEAKER_03]: We're a computer training, documentation, and web page writing firm here in New York.
[24:57.100 --> 25:01.160]  [SPEAKER_03]: And we're also a couple of ex-hackers, but we won't talk about our sordid past.
[25:02.780 --> 25:03.960]  [SPEAKER_03]: What is a web page?
[25:04.900 --> 25:10.260]  [SPEAKER_03]: The World Wide Web is a way of graphically accessing information on the Internet.
[25:11.100 --> 25:20.860]  [SPEAKER_03]: If you have what's known as a shell account, you have what looks like just a text-based method of looking at the information.
[25:20.860 --> 25:30.520]  [SPEAKER_03]: It looks like those old teletypes you see in your typical old science fiction or World War III movie, except now it's on a screen instead of on an endless scroll of paper.
[25:30.740 --> 25:40.420]  [SPEAKER_03]: What the World Wide Web does is it puts up on your PC or Mac screen whatever pictures the person who wrote that page wants you to see.
[25:41.100 --> 25:42.480]  [SPEAKER_03]: It looks a lot better.
[25:43.220 --> 25:45.680]  [SPEAKER_03]: You're able to see whatever they want to put up.
[25:46.000 --> 25:55.340]  [SPEAKER_03]: You can also, if you have the right viewer, you can also see little movies, download sound clips, access sound clips off their web page.
[25:56.660 --> 25:59.600]  [SPEAKER_03]: There are literally hundreds of thousands of them out there.
[25:59.840 --> 26:05.920]  [SPEAKER_03]: And it's sort of like what the printing press was in 1500.
[26:05.920 --> 26:11.820]  [SPEAKER_03]: It's a new technology that gives everyone the power to put up whatever information they want.
[26:12.420 --> 26:20.700]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, it's interesting seeing all these businesses getting involved because there are lots of Fortune 500 companies that are putting up their web pages.
[26:20.740 --> 26:21.900]  [SPEAKER_25]: What are they doing with these web pages?
[26:22.500 --> 26:39.440]  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, the really interesting thing, I'm the other half of Esoteric Resources, is that people can access information about a company and not only can they see pictures or movies or little video clips or sounds, but they can actually connect to computers all over the Internet without knowing where the hell they're going.
[26:39.760 --> 26:45.980]  [SPEAKER_01]: They can use hypertext, click on a topic, and they can be sent to a computer halfway across the world.
[26:46.300 --> 26:47.880]  [SPEAKER_01]: You don't need to know that anymore.
[26:48.220 --> 26:52.020]  [SPEAKER_01]: That's what the World Wide Web, that's the beauty of it and that's why these corporations are getting into it.
[26:52.220 --> 26:56.800]  [SPEAKER_01]: Before now, it was really hard for the average user to get anywhere on the Internet.
[26:57.240 --> 26:59.360]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now, what's an average user going to do with a homepage?
[26:59.600 --> 27:01.500]  [SPEAKER_25]: Why would somebody want their own homepage?
[27:01.760 --> 27:02.480]  [SPEAKER_25]: Give us an example.
[27:03.180 --> 27:03.640]  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
[27:03.720 --> 27:05.480]  [SPEAKER_01]: They think they have something they want to say to the world.
[27:05.680 --> 27:05.960]  [SPEAKER_25]: Uh-huh.
[27:06.020 --> 27:07.040]  [SPEAKER_25]: Show a picture of themselves?
[27:07.240 --> 27:12.340]  [SPEAKER_01]: Picture, what your cat looks like, the view out your window, some special topic that you're interested in.
[27:12.480 --> 27:15.340]  [SPEAKER_25]: And is it hard for somebody with that experience to learn how to do this?
[27:15.340 --> 27:16.180]  [SPEAKER_01]: Not particularly.
[27:16.640 --> 27:16.860]  [SPEAKER_25]: Uh-huh.
[27:17.900 --> 27:27.480]  [SPEAKER_01]: In fact, more and more commercially available products are, even Microsoft Word now has an add-on that you can download and you can actually generate your own homepage.
[27:27.540 --> 27:33.720]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, if you see a homepage that you like, you can actually download the code for that homepage and look at how they did it and then do it yourself.
[27:33.980 --> 27:34.120]  [SPEAKER_25]: Sure.
[27:34.120 --> 27:40.420]  [SPEAKER_01]: You can copy it, change the actual text, and I'm sure you can draw a graphic and if you can't, you can probably find someone who can help you.
[27:40.960 --> 27:42.880]  [SPEAKER_25]: And you can link to other homepages.
[27:43.100 --> 27:43.500]  [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.
[27:43.720 --> 27:46.840]  [SPEAKER_01]: So anything you've found that you like, you can make a hypertext link.
[27:46.940 --> 27:47.800]  [SPEAKER_01]: It's real simple.
[27:48.040 --> 27:54.120]  [SPEAKER_01]: Once you spend any time on the net, you know, most people who are bright enough to listen to this radio show can probably figure it out for themselves.
[27:54.580 --> 27:57.940]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, so it's worth the investment, but you know, we forgot the most important part of all.
[27:59.000 --> 28:06.340]  [SPEAKER_25]: $150 will be going to WBAI and helping make us stronger, helping to keep us out of the clutches of those evil people in Washington, D.C.
[28:06.380 --> 28:07.440]  [SPEAKER_25]: that want to shut us down.
[28:07.600 --> 28:09.900]  [SPEAKER_25]: And they have not said so.
[28:09.900 --> 28:11.280]  [SPEAKER_25]: They have not gone out...
[28:11.280 --> 28:11.880]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, have they?
[28:12.000 --> 28:12.320]  [SPEAKER_25]: I don't know.
[28:12.420 --> 28:19.300]  [SPEAKER_25]: Some people say they have, but they have not specifically stood up on the podium and said, we aim to shut down WBAI in New York.
[28:19.500 --> 28:31.320]  [SPEAKER_25]: However, they have made certain indications that they find the kinds of programs that we have objectionable and something that they don't think that federal funds should be supporting.
[28:31.380 --> 28:43.640]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now, we get all kinds of matching grants from various organizations as far as I believe Corporation for Public Broadcasting or whatnot.
[28:43.640 --> 28:52.160]  [SPEAKER_25]: I'm not exactly sure how it works, but I know we get federal funds that are being threatened to be cut off and we could lose hundreds of thousands of dollars as a result of this.
[28:52.460 --> 28:56.500]  [SPEAKER_25]: And that will, in effect, strangle us without the support of our listeners.
[28:57.460 --> 29:12.520]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's, you know, a couple of years ago we were talking about Robert Mapplethought and how certain objectionable paintings were being looked at as something the federal government did not want to endorse by providing any kinds of funding for development.
[29:13.200 --> 29:18.500]  [SPEAKER_25]: That was their way of looking at it, the way that certain conservative senators were looking at things.
[29:18.500 --> 29:30.900]  [SPEAKER_25]: They view certain pictures, certain ideas as pornographic and so they convince a lot of people not to support that and to speak out against it and it makes things very difficult, makes things very combative.
[29:31.280 --> 29:33.000]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now it's progressed.
[29:33.160 --> 29:38.100]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's progressed a little bit beyond that, beyond paintings, beyond poetry, beyond books.
[29:38.340 --> 29:39.480]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now it's radio.
[29:39.800 --> 29:41.600]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now it's Pacifica in particular.
[29:41.600 --> 29:48.040]  [SPEAKER_25]: We will be the first heads on the chopping block as far as that kind of thing goes and NPR won't be far behind.
[29:48.360 --> 29:56.020]  [SPEAKER_25]: So if you support the radio station then supporting this radio program should be something that you take a natural interest in.
[29:56.160 --> 30:08.380]  [SPEAKER_25]: We're trying to make it easier for you but, you know, even if we didn't have anything to offer you in return other than the radio station itself, I would hope that you would call up and contribute whatever you could afford.
[30:09.240 --> 30:13.240]  [SPEAKER_25]: 212-279-3400 is our telephone number and we're offering...
[30:13.860 --> 30:15.160]  [SPEAKER_25]: We haven't been updated yet.
[30:15.520 --> 30:18.260]  [SPEAKER_25]: You might want to call and ask if any of those are available.
[30:19.120 --> 30:25.840]  [SPEAKER_25]: The six-month PPP accounts to escape.com if you're anywhere local to New York City, 212-718 area codes.
[30:26.160 --> 30:29.240]  [SPEAKER_25]: It would be a very worthwhile thing to try out for six months.
[30:29.960 --> 30:39.100]  [SPEAKER_25]: And, you know, even if you don't have a computer yet or if you don't have a phone line set up yet, you can start this whenever you wish.
[30:39.240 --> 30:42.180]  [SPEAKER_25]: If you want to start it two months down the road for six months, that's fine.
[30:42.300 --> 30:43.760]  [SPEAKER_25]: They're very flexible down there to escape.
[30:44.640 --> 30:51.540]  [SPEAKER_25]: Roman, we should also give you the opportunity to give out some information about your service for those people that might be interested in just calling up to find out more about you.
[30:52.200 --> 30:52.340]  [SPEAKER_22]: Sure.
[30:52.580 --> 30:54.640]  [SPEAKER_22]: We provide complete Internet access, as you know.
[30:55.720 --> 30:58.240]  [SPEAKER_22]: The cost of our service is $19.95 a month.
[30:58.440 --> 31:00.520]  [SPEAKER_22]: That includes a slip PVP and a shell account.
[31:00.720 --> 31:07.520]  [SPEAKER_22]: And we can be reached at area code 212-888-8780 between the hours of 10 a.m.
[31:07.740 --> 31:08.460]  [SPEAKER_22]: and 6 p.m.
[31:08.600 --> 31:09.380]  [SPEAKER_22]: Monday through Friday.
[31:10.000 --> 31:10.400]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay.
[31:11.060 --> 31:14.840]  [SPEAKER_25]: And, again, thanks very much for providing this service to us.
[31:15.480 --> 31:18.660]  [SPEAKER_25]: And, again, our phone number is 212-279-3400.
[31:18.660 --> 31:28.840]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now, if, by some chance, you don't want that, and you would prefer something else instead, we have a couple of other things.
[31:29.760 --> 31:35.220]  [SPEAKER_25]: And I'll go over one of them now, and then we'll go over another one later.
[31:35.840 --> 31:43.700]  [SPEAKER_25]: We have 2600 Magazine, a full year of 2600 Magazine, the most controversial hackerzine around, I think.
[31:44.040 --> 31:45.780]  [SPEAKER_25]: Probably one of the few hackerzines around.
[31:46.320 --> 31:50.900]  [SPEAKER_25]: And, also, a controversial 2600 t-shirt, which I understand.
[31:51.680 --> 31:53.280]  [SPEAKER_25]: I've only heard this as a rumor.
[31:53.700 --> 31:57.280]  [SPEAKER_25]: I understand the design of the 2600 t-shirts is about to change.
[31:57.280 --> 32:08.280]  [SPEAKER_25]: So, if you have not gotten one of these yet, you would do well to call up now, pledge $75, and get a one-year subscription and a 2600 t-shirt.
[32:08.420 --> 32:10.380]  [SPEAKER_25]: Sent wherever you tell us to send it.
[32:10.520 --> 32:11.040]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's right.
[32:11.120 --> 32:11.600]  [SPEAKER_25]: We'll do that.
[32:11.980 --> 32:23.640]  [SPEAKER_25]: So, for a pledge of $150, a six-month PPP account at Escape, or for a pledge of $75, a 2600 subscription, and a 2600 t-shirt.
[32:24.360 --> 32:31.740]  [SPEAKER_25]: And on that 2600 t-shirt is a schematic of a blue box, which people rumor is illegal to wear in California, but we're not sure about that yet.
[32:32.400 --> 32:36.780]  [SPEAKER_25]: And all kinds of hacker articles on the back of the shirt.
[32:36.940 --> 32:39.800]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's white lettering on black background.
[32:40.680 --> 32:42.800]  [SPEAKER_25]: When you wear that shirt, people will know.
[32:42.940 --> 32:47.740]  [SPEAKER_25]: People will know that you are the kind of person that takes great pride in learning things.
[32:48.200 --> 32:54.780]  [SPEAKER_25]: That takes great pride in hammering away at the answers until you get what it is that you're looking for.
[32:55.980 --> 32:58.700]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's kind of what the hacker world is all about.
[32:59.300 --> 33:01.400]  [SPEAKER_25]: And we're proud of it here at Off The Hook.
[33:01.540 --> 33:03.960]  [SPEAKER_25]: I think we're proud of it here at WBAI in general.
[33:04.980 --> 33:09.000]  [SPEAKER_25]: So, again, that phone number is 212-279-3400.
[33:09.920 --> 33:13.040]  [SPEAKER_25]: All right, we'll be back in a couple of minutes with some special guests.
[33:13.580 --> 33:15.420]  [SPEAKER_25]: Until then, keep those phones ringing.
[33:15.700 --> 33:20.940]  [SPEAKER_25]: Remember, this is Off The Hook, the program that is proud to find out things.
[33:22.220 --> 33:28.000]  [SPEAKER_14]: I told you before to go away from my door.
[33:28.520 --> 33:33.100]  [SPEAKER_14]: Don't give me that brother, brother, brother, brother.
[33:34.620 --> 33:40.120]  [SPEAKER_14]: The freaks on the phone won't leave me alone.
[33:41.060 --> 33:48.380]  [SPEAKER_14]: So don't give me that brother, brother, brother, I found out.
[33:56.520 --> 34:10.380]  [SPEAKER_14]: I found out Now that I show what I've been through Don't take the rush away What you can do
[34:13.950 --> 34:25.960]  [SPEAKER_14]: will come from the sky Now that I've found out I know I can cry I found out.
[34:38.310 --> 34:40.310]  [SPEAKER_14]: Don't get you nowhere.
[34:40.970 --> 34:43.190]  [SPEAKER_14]: Don't make you a man.
[34:44.310 --> 34:48.550]  [SPEAKER_14]: I heard something about them all in my palm.
[34:49.690 --> 34:54.230]  [SPEAKER_14]: In one mist, so there may be a star.
[34:55.110 --> 34:58.470]  [SPEAKER_14]: I, I found out.
[35:01.980 --> 35:03.980]  [SPEAKER_14]: I found out.
[35:34.960 --> 35:37.020]  [SPEAKER_14]: Just keep you crazy.
[35:37.480 --> 35:39.640]  [SPEAKER_14]: We're nothing to do.
[35:42.000 --> 35:42.760]  [SPEAKER_14]: Occupied.
[35:43.440 --> 35:44.740]  [SPEAKER_14]: I am a star.
[35:46.060 --> 35:47.920]  [SPEAKER_14]: There ain't no clue.
[35:48.680 --> 35:50.780]  [SPEAKER_14]: Can't see through your eyes.
[36:55.000 --> 36:58.520]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, we just found out that we've already hit $1,000.
[36:58.960 --> 36:59.560]  [SPEAKER_25]: Isn't that something?
[36:59.880 --> 37:00.980]  [SPEAKER_25]: Congratulations, everyone.
[37:01.100 --> 37:01.400]  [SPEAKER_25]: Congratulations.
[37:02.540 --> 37:03.140]  [SPEAKER_25]: All right.
[37:03.380 --> 37:05.320]  [SPEAKER_25]: We're, we're moving pretty, uh, pretty fast.
[37:05.560 --> 37:08.460]  [SPEAKER_25]: And, uh, all the, um, all the PPPs are gone.
[37:09.320 --> 37:09.720]  [SPEAKER_25]: Sorry.
[37:10.000 --> 37:11.100]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's all, all gone there.
[37:11.300 --> 37:14.800]  [SPEAKER_25]: And, uh, thank you very much, Roman, for providing that to us at escape.com.
[37:15.020 --> 37:17.280]  [SPEAKER_25]: Remember, they can be reached at 212-888-8780.
[37:17.800 --> 37:26.300]  [SPEAKER_25]: Uh, if, uh, you want some, uh, information on Internet service in New York and, um, perhaps someday somewhere else, too, you might be expanding, right?
[37:26.300 --> 37:29.180]  [SPEAKER_22]: Yeah, hopefully by the end of summer, Long Island and New Jersey.
[37:29.460 --> 37:29.740]  [SPEAKER_25]: Wow.
[37:29.980 --> 37:32.600]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, those are certainly, uh, places to set your sights on.
[37:33.200 --> 37:33.760]  [SPEAKER_25]: All right.
[37:34.180 --> 37:37.480]  [SPEAKER_25]: Um, here's an interesting little, little, uh, note.
[37:38.300 --> 37:38.980]  [SPEAKER_25]: There you go.
[37:39.480 --> 37:45.380]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's, uh, that's our, our famous, uh, friendly, uh, red box tone, which, uh, Bernie S.
[37:45.500 --> 37:49.020]  [SPEAKER_25]: is currently in prison for, for $100,000 bail.
[37:49.560 --> 37:50.380]  [SPEAKER_25]: Boy, how about that?
[37:50.840 --> 37:55.180]  [SPEAKER_25]: Those five tones, or one tone five times, can, can get you in a world of trouble.
[37:55.620 --> 37:57.000]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, we happen to know Bernie S.
[37:57.300 --> 38:00.660]  [SPEAKER_25]: is, um, in a federal penitentiary now in southern New Jersey.
[38:01.280 --> 38:03.360]  [SPEAKER_25]: Um, Fiber, I think you're familiar with the name of it.
[38:03.580 --> 38:09.080]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah, the, uh, the exact place, uh, from what you've told me is Fairton, F-A-I-R-T-O-N.
[38:09.240 --> 38:11.980]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, and that's really all we know now is that he's at Fairton.
[38:12.300 --> 38:21.200]  [SPEAKER_25]: We're trying to find out exactly, uh, uh, what his prisoner number is, what his address is, so we can provide some sort of a, uh, a gateway for, for people to mail him.
[38:21.300 --> 38:24.620]  [SPEAKER_25]: We're going to try to get down there and visit him as well and find out just where this case stands.
[38:24.780 --> 38:32.740]  [SPEAKER_25]: The Redbox case was dropped, um, because, uh, I guess they just felt that wasn't the case there, and of course we felt that from the beginning.
[38:32.840 --> 38:42.680]  [SPEAKER_25]: However, it was replaced with, uh, an equally bogus, uh, cellular phone case, uh, having the software necessary to modify a cellular phone to do evil things.
[38:43.200 --> 38:49.520]  [SPEAKER_25]: He was never charged with doing evil things, intending to do evil things, or anything quite like that, just having the knowledge to do it.
[38:49.780 --> 38:57.880]  [SPEAKER_25]: And that's something that, um, I fear we may see a lot more of in the future, uh, prosecutions based on fear of knowledge.
[38:58.820 --> 39:06.560]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, knowledge is something that has come to the people of the Lower East Side in the way of an, a new cyber cafe.
[39:06.840 --> 39:14.460]  [SPEAKER_25]: You know, Fiber, weren't we saying a couple of years ago, wouldn't it be nice if there was a place where we could just sort of go hang out, have food, and, and be on the net?
[39:14.460 --> 39:15.560]  [SPEAKER_21]: It would be great.
[39:15.940 --> 39:17.180]  [SPEAKER_25]: I'm sorry, I didn't have your mic on.
[39:17.220 --> 39:17.760]  [SPEAKER_25]: You want to repeat that?
[39:17.900 --> 39:18.660]  [SPEAKER_21]: Oh, yeah, I see.
[39:18.800 --> 39:20.480]  [SPEAKER_21]: It would be great if that were true.
[39:20.660 --> 39:20.980]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yes.
[39:21.520 --> 39:22.680]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, it's happened.
[39:22.860 --> 39:23.720]  [SPEAKER_25]: It has happened.
[39:23.820 --> 39:29.200]  [SPEAKER_25]: In fact, uh, you and I have both, uh, been down there a few times, uh, a new place downtown called the At Cafe.
[39:29.480 --> 39:33.860]  [SPEAKER_25]: We have the two people that, uh, that started, uh, the At Cafe with us, uh, tonight.
[39:34.180 --> 39:37.260]  [SPEAKER_25]: Uh, Nick Barnes, Glenn McGinnis, welcome to Off the Hook.
[39:37.360 --> 39:41.640]  [SPEAKER_25]: Tell us something about, uh, uh, uh, where you got the idea to start a place like this and what it's all about.
[39:42.080 --> 39:43.000]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, thank you.
[39:43.240 --> 39:45.980]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, well, we've worked on it for a while.
[39:46.260 --> 39:53.680]  [SPEAKER_12]: Maybe hadn't thought of it about three years ago, but, uh, but have certainly been thinking about it for the past, uh, year or so.
[39:53.900 --> 39:59.460]  [SPEAKER_12]: Brought it into existence and opened it up to the public, uh, just about three weeks ago now.
[39:59.640 --> 40:01.760]  [SPEAKER_12]: So we have 13 systems down there.
[40:01.860 --> 40:10.300]  [SPEAKER_12]: We were, we're running a T1 into the building, actually, uh, forced NYNEX to do a little work, rip up the street on 3rd Avenue and draw, draw some, uh, fiber into the building.
[40:10.500 --> 40:12.060]  [SPEAKER_25]: So you had to go to a NYNEX too.
[40:12.220 --> 40:13.480]  [SPEAKER_25]: There was no, no, no choice.
[40:13.760 --> 40:15.380]  [SPEAKER_12]: Unfortunately, but at least we beat them up back a little bit.
[40:15.760 --> 40:20.980]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, we, uh, we can run, uh, currently 183 T's into the building.
[40:21.180 --> 40:23.260]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, haven't quite, uh, hooked that many in yet.
[40:23.420 --> 40:24.700]  [SPEAKER_12]: Hundred and eighty three.
[40:25.200 --> 40:25.560]  [SPEAKER_12]: Wow.
[40:25.960 --> 40:26.880]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's what we were told.
[40:27.020 --> 40:32.540]  [SPEAKER_12]: Of course, uh, NYNEX likes to throw different numbers at you, so we'll, we'll, we'll see when we start, uh, ordering them.
[40:32.820 --> 40:33.100]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh-huh.
[40:33.100 --> 40:37.300]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, at any rate, uh, we, we have, uh, UNIX systems down there on the floor.
[40:37.460 --> 40:38.760]  [SPEAKER_12]: We have, uh, Power Max.
[40:39.000 --> 40:40.840]  [SPEAKER_12]: We have, uh, PCs.
[40:41.240 --> 40:43.940]  [SPEAKER_12]: They're all, they're all, uh, live 24-7.
[40:44.220 --> 40:45.960]  [SPEAKER_12]: Unfortunately, we're not open 24 hours yet.
[40:45.980 --> 40:49.180]  [SPEAKER_12]: Hopefully soon if you guys, uh, get your butts down there.
[40:49.300 --> 40:49.880]  [SPEAKER_12]: That would be great.
[40:50.060 --> 40:51.400]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, uh, yeah.
[40:51.680 --> 40:55.280]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, so, uh, we're running See You See Me, which is video conferencing.
[40:55.460 --> 40:57.700]  [SPEAKER_12]: People have been getting psyched about that on the, on the Max.
[40:58.040 --> 41:00.860]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, uh, as well as, uh, having a liquor license.
[41:01.320 --> 41:01.420]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh-huh.
[41:01.420 --> 41:01.680]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh-huh.
[41:01.680 --> 41:04.860]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, uh, pouring beers and, uh, shots as well.
[41:05.140 --> 41:07.260]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, uh, uh, so that's where we stand.
[41:07.460 --> 41:13.180]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, now, the See You See Me was interesting because, uh, we were in the cafe the other day and we were watching, uh, uh, uh, people from around the world.
[41:13.320 --> 41:21.480]  [SPEAKER_25]: But we were also watching people from, from different parts of the world just kind of, uh, um, coming in over the screen and people talking back and forth to them.
[41:21.960 --> 41:25.760]  [SPEAKER_25]: I mean, I know See You See Me has been around for, for a little bit of time and, uh, a lot of people are playing with it.
[41:25.880 --> 41:33.520]  [SPEAKER_25]: But I've never been in a situation where it's kind of like, you know, a place where a lot of people are at the same time and everyone's just sort of talking back and forth.
[41:33.680 --> 41:41.020]  [SPEAKER_25]: I mean, you're, you're, you're sitting upstairs looking down at somebody, but you can see them on your computer screen and you can say hello to them and they can say hello back to you.
[41:41.080 --> 41:42.980]  [SPEAKER_25]: No need for all this, uh, face-to-face stuff.
[41:43.360 --> 41:46.080]  [SPEAKER_25]: And you can do the same thing to somebody in Belgium at the same exact moment.
[41:46.160 --> 41:48.820]  [SPEAKER_12]: Or the person in Belgium can introduce you to the person at the other table.
[41:48.940 --> 41:49.260]  [SPEAKER_25]: Exactly.
[41:49.440 --> 41:49.740]  [SPEAKER_25]: Exactly.
[41:50.200 --> 41:54.520]  [SPEAKER_25]: So, uh, moments like that are, are, I guess, uh, pretty, pretty commonplace now.
[41:54.700 --> 41:56.220]  [SPEAKER_25]: Although, when did you guys actually open?
[41:56.780 --> 41:59.520]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, as I said, just about, uh, three weeks ago on the 25th.
[41:59.760 --> 42:05.800]  [SPEAKER_12]: I haven't thrown the, uh, grand opening bash, uh, yet, but when we do, I'm sure, uh, you are all definitely invited.
[42:06.100 --> 42:06.300]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh-huh.
[42:06.480 --> 42:07.140]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, yeah.
[42:07.300 --> 42:11.360]  [SPEAKER_12]: And as far as, uh, See You See Me stories, they are beginning to happen more frequently.
[42:11.840 --> 42:12.180]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, mm-hmm.
[42:12.380 --> 42:14.360]  [SPEAKER_12]: Seal was actually on the other day, the musician.
[42:14.900 --> 42:15.100]  [SPEAKER_13]: Mm-hmm.
[42:15.180 --> 42:24.760]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, uh, we had, uh, interesting event down there with, uh, a couple of, uh, extreme fans, uh, showing their extreme affection over See You See Me, uh, to Seal.
[42:25.200 --> 42:25.380]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh-huh.
[42:25.640 --> 42:27.200]  [SPEAKER_12]: And also to the rest of the, uh, restaurants.
[42:27.580 --> 42:29.880]  [SPEAKER_12]: So, what kind of a... Crazy things happening all the time.
[42:29.900 --> 42:34.480]  [SPEAKER_25]: What kind of response are you getting from, from the neighborhood, from, uh, the media, from people like that?
[42:34.480 --> 42:37.420]  [SPEAKER_12]: People have been, uh, pretty hot, people have been pretty positive about it.
[42:37.620 --> 42:44.800]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, we're really have all got our hearts in it, you know, trying to, trying to offer the best possible hardware, the best possible connectivity.
[42:45.380 --> 42:50.800]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, obviously it's a fight all the time with all the different sort of, uh, links in the chain, but it's been going pretty good.
[42:51.060 --> 42:54.860]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, we're trying to serve some good food and, uh, some good drink at the same time.
[42:55.080 --> 42:57.100]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, uh, it's been great.
[42:57.180 --> 42:58.100]  [SPEAKER_12]: We have a great space.
[42:58.180 --> 42:59.140]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's in a beautiful building.
[42:59.220 --> 43:08.760]  [SPEAKER_12]: We, uh, have some projection systems going so that you can, uh, actually see huge images, whether it's movies, animation, or actually seeing the Internet itself.
[43:09.280 --> 43:13.500]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, and, uh, the, the crowd has been very interesting.
[43:13.500 --> 43:19.300]  [SPEAKER_12]: We've had people all the way from the UN to people just around the street, you know, being very supportive coming back.
[43:19.600 --> 43:27.420]  [SPEAKER_25]: Uh, as well as, uh, you're, you're, you're in the old, uh, St. Mark's books place on St. Mark's.
[43:27.500 --> 43:27.740]  [SPEAKER_12]: Is that right?
[43:28.100 --> 43:28.460]  [SPEAKER_12]: Exactly.
[43:28.720 --> 43:33.120]  [SPEAKER_12]: Trying to keep up the church, the high route tradition of, uh, 12 St. Mark's, I guess.
[43:33.360 --> 43:33.580]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh-huh.
[43:34.500 --> 43:37.000]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, but yeah, actually it was before it was St. Mark's bookstore.
[43:37.080 --> 43:37.660]  [SPEAKER_12]: It was actually a bar.
[43:37.840 --> 43:40.680]  [SPEAKER_12]: So we're also, also bringing, bringing those spirits back to life.
[43:40.700 --> 43:41.820]  [SPEAKER_25]: What was it before St. Mark's books?
[43:42.300 --> 43:43.280]  [SPEAKER_12]: What was it, uh, Nick?
[43:43.280 --> 43:47.220]  [SPEAKER_05]: I think it was a Hungarian, just a Hungarian local East Village Hungarian bar, actually.
[43:47.380 --> 43:47.660]  [SPEAKER_05]: Really?
[43:47.780 --> 43:48.480]  [SPEAKER_05]: I didn't know that.
[43:48.680 --> 43:51.260]  [SPEAKER_05]: Previous to that was the, uh, German-American shooting club.
[43:51.440 --> 43:53.200]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's, the building was built in... No kidding.
[43:53.420 --> 43:53.580]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[43:53.860 --> 43:55.260]  [SPEAKER_25]: The German-American shooting club.
[43:55.540 --> 43:55.580]  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[43:55.800 --> 43:57.420]  [SPEAKER_25]: Boy, that brings back some memories.
[43:57.540 --> 44:00.920]  [SPEAKER_25]: Were they Germans and Americans shooting at each other or were they shooting with each other?
[44:00.960 --> 44:03.200]  [SPEAKER_05]: It's interesting for the East Village to have that, uh, there, so.
[44:03.360 --> 44:03.660]  [SPEAKER_25]: Uh-huh.
[44:03.800 --> 44:05.120]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, that's, uh, that is something.
[44:05.900 --> 44:08.200]  [SPEAKER_25]: So now it's, uh, now it's the At Cafe.
[44:08.200 --> 44:10.220]  [SPEAKER_25]: Any trouble with Wired overusing the At sign?
[44:10.760 --> 44:10.860]  [SPEAKER_25]: No?
[44:11.860 --> 44:12.780]  [SPEAKER_12]: No, no trouble, man.
[44:12.780 --> 44:13.460]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, that's good.
[44:13.540 --> 44:13.900]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's good.
[44:14.020 --> 44:15.300]  [SPEAKER_25]: They wanted to trademark that, I heard.
[44:15.900 --> 44:16.640]  [SPEAKER_25]: Um... Really?
[44:17.220 --> 44:17.620]  [SPEAKER_12]: Really?
[44:18.180 --> 44:18.580]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah.
[44:18.720 --> 44:22.460]  [SPEAKER_25]: So now, what has been your biggest crisis so far, as far as, uh, technical things?
[44:22.660 --> 44:24.280]  [SPEAKER_25]: Uh, you've fallen off the net a few times?
[44:24.500 --> 44:33.120]  [SPEAKER_12]: Actually, I'd say our biggest crisis is when we had a main pipe break over our computer room and had, uh, about 80 gallons of steaming water... Oh, dear.
[44:33.840 --> 44:36.060]  [SPEAKER_12]: ...come down around all the main systems...
[44:36.060 --> 44:36.640]  [SPEAKER_12]: Oh, that's gotta hurt.
[44:36.720 --> 44:37.680]  [SPEAKER_12]: ...the day of opening.
[44:37.960 --> 44:39.620]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, it was, uh, it was interesting.
[44:39.620 --> 44:45.160]  [SPEAKER_12]: But, uh, human, human shields can deflect water, which they did very well for about an hour.
[44:45.580 --> 44:49.000]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now, you have, you have Macs and you have, uh, UNIX systems, you said.
[44:49.100 --> 44:50.360]  [SPEAKER_25]: What, what kind of UNIX systems are you running?
[44:50.520 --> 44:55.140]  [SPEAKER_12]: We just, we have Linux, free UNIX, baby, um, running, uh, actually just on one system right now.
[44:55.240 --> 45:03.140]  [SPEAKER_12]: We have some dumb terminals, uh, that are just right onto our main, uh, which is also, we're running Linux downstairs, a combination of Linux and, uh, Solaris.
[45:03.580 --> 45:11.340]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, and we hope to get more of them up, up quickly just because, I mean, they're obviously such nice systems to work with, with the multitasking.
[45:11.660 --> 45:15.140]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now, do the waitresses have to know how to kill a process or...
[45:15.140 --> 45:15.640]  [SPEAKER_25]: Absolutely.
[45:16.440 --> 45:16.840]  [SPEAKER_25]: Really?
[45:16.840 --> 45:17.240]  [SPEAKER_25]: So...
[45:17.240 --> 45:17.820]  [SPEAKER_25]: Absolutely.
[45:18.020 --> 45:21.960]  [SPEAKER_25]: So people serving you food are actually, um, they, they know about this kind of thing.
[45:21.980 --> 45:23.120]  [SPEAKER_12]: The staff has been phenomenal.
[45:23.340 --> 45:27.720]  [SPEAKER_12]: They're, it's a great, it's great crew and it just shows, uh, how much interest is really out there.
[45:27.960 --> 45:33.600]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, uh, because they're, they're, they're, they're a great, great bunch of people as well as being very knowledgeable about the Internet.
[45:33.600 --> 45:42.420]  [SPEAKER_12]: And it did, in addition to the, to the wait staff, we also have, uh, computer, people just dedicated to helping people out with the net on the floor all the time.
[45:42.580 --> 45:42.720]  [SPEAKER_13]: Mm-hmm.
[45:43.020 --> 45:45.020]  [SPEAKER_12]: How, how did you reach out to these people?
[45:45.140 --> 45:45.740]  [SPEAKER_25]: How did you find them?
[45:46.980 --> 45:54.980]  [SPEAKER_12]: Through, uh, through both, both, both over, over the net and, uh, through, through more conventional means, you know, just through the paper and, uh, and word of mouth.
[45:55.500 --> 45:55.720]  [SPEAKER_25]: Really?
[45:55.860 --> 46:00.380]  [SPEAKER_12]: The Internet did prove to be a great tool, though, in finding, in finding people as well.
[46:00.380 --> 46:02.560]  [SPEAKER_25]: Have you guys been on the net for a while, before this?
[46:03.500 --> 46:04.320]  [SPEAKER_12]: Oh, yeah, definitely.
[46:04.440 --> 46:11.480]  [SPEAKER_12]: I mean, I just, I, I, I was, I was at Cornell before I sort of got into this and I was on, you know, from, from when I, uh, started it at school.
[46:11.820 --> 46:17.680]  [SPEAKER_12]: I had, I'd been doing the bulletin board thing through high school and, uh, just, just the Internet as for so many people.
[46:17.780 --> 46:20.060]  [SPEAKER_25]: You notice how a lot of these seem to spring from bulletin boards?
[46:20.200 --> 46:25.920]  [SPEAKER_25]: Escape got started from a bulletin board and, and you guys had bulletin board access or experience before that?
[46:25.920 --> 46:32.780]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, I think for people who were, were, were checking out bulletin boards, um, way back when, that, uh, that it's very obvious.
[46:32.800 --> 46:38.780]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's just, I mean, it's almost, it's just like a giant, giant, uh, much more, obviously, than a bulletin board, much more to it, obviously.
[46:39.160 --> 46:41.720]  [SPEAKER_12]: I don't want to make that comparison, but, but the roots are certainly there.
[46:41.860 --> 46:52.020]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's just as like, you can, uh, see, see the, the history and the evolution of Moose all the way back to, to, to Zork, you know, and, uh, that's sort of, yeah, view of things, I guess.
[46:52.540 --> 46:54.280]  [SPEAKER_25]: So now, what do you have planned for the future?
[46:54.460 --> 46:57.140]  [SPEAKER_25]: What, what kinds of, uh, expansions, um...
[46:57.140 --> 46:57.820]  [SPEAKER_25]: Expansions?
[46:57.920 --> 46:58.560]  [SPEAKER_25]: You can't really grow.
[46:58.960 --> 46:59.340]  [SPEAKER_25]: Mind, of the body?
[46:59.380 --> 47:01.080]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, can, you can't really grow in that space, right?
[47:01.480 --> 47:02.480]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's really, uh...
[47:02.480 --> 47:07.000]  [SPEAKER_12]: Well, with, uh, the, the, uh, virtue of virtual, uh, virtual space, right?
[47:07.120 --> 47:08.040]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's, it's sort of unlimited.
[47:08.520 --> 47:16.220]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, we've got plenty of room to cram systems in, and it's, as I said, it's a nice big space for, so plenty of people can get on down there and do some drinking.
[47:16.800 --> 47:17.880]  [SPEAKER_12]: Hang on the computers.
[47:18.080 --> 47:19.520]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now, okay, that's, that brings up an interesting point.
[47:19.700 --> 47:23.760]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now, people drinking and using computers, you think that's a, that's a good mix, or, uh...
[47:23.760 --> 47:24.260]  [SPEAKER_25]: Definitely.
[47:24.580 --> 47:24.680]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah?
[47:24.740 --> 47:25.540]  [SPEAKER_25]: Definitely a great mix.
[47:25.560 --> 47:27.320]  [SPEAKER_25]: People become a little more creative, or more adventurous?
[47:27.320 --> 47:29.220]  [SPEAKER_25]: A little more social, yeah, absolutely.
[47:29.600 --> 47:30.000]  [SPEAKER_25]: Absolutely.
[47:30.360 --> 47:34.580]  [SPEAKER_25]: You don't see computers as, as taking away from people's, uh, social life at all?
[47:34.760 --> 47:42.780]  [SPEAKER_12]: I have always seen, um, uh, additional technology as, as, as an addition to myself and to others, certainly.
[47:42.960 --> 47:50.360]  [SPEAKER_12]: I mean, uh, I see it as very empowering, empowering, I see the technology as very empowering to the individual, if we, if we use it correctly.
[47:50.660 --> 47:50.820]  [SPEAKER_12]: Mm-hmm.
[47:50.860 --> 48:09.600]  [SPEAKER_12]: And if we can keep the Internet free, and, uh, relatively, uh, uh, free-flowing, and, and not jammed up, uh, and, and keep it growing, that I think it can be a very empowering thing for, for all of us as, as individuals, as opposed to a more conforming government system,
[48:09.600 --> 48:23.980]  [SPEAKER_12]: and, and, and a more, uh, uh, I think a society that would like to, to see us, or the powers that be would like to see us, um, conform to certain standards, I think the Internet is a, incredibly powerful tool to fight that, and to, to, to remain independent.
[48:24.460 --> 48:31.240]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah, that, that, that is it exactly, uh, in fact, uh, I, I, I see the authorities kicking themselves from not getting a handle on this quicker, so that they could be the ones.
[48:31.380 --> 48:42.140]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah, it's too late, because, uh, the Pandora's box has been opened, we've had a taste of it, and, uh, I don't think we're going to just let it go like this, and, uh, it's, it's good to see you guys are, uh, you seem to have the right spirit about it all.
[48:42.460 --> 48:53.020]  [SPEAKER_25]: One of the biggest questions, though, I get when I tell people about this place is, um, uh, yeah, you have the computers right there on the table while the people spill beer and the, and the keyboard, what, what do you do, and how do you, how do you prevent things like that,
[48:53.120 --> 48:56.320]  [SPEAKER_25]: uh, you know, how do you mix food and, and computers and, and all that?
[48:56.940 --> 49:12.140]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, knock on wood, uh, things have been going very well, we haven't had any hardware failures yet, uh, we've definitely had some bad spills, and, uh, I've really tried to place the systems out of the way and spent, uh, we, we, we've all spent a lot of time really trying to design the place to,
[49:12.140 --> 49:27.860]  [SPEAKER_12]: to withstand shock, uh, and we'll certainly continue to add things to prevent, uh, any sort of damage, but, I mean, the keyboards, we've poured beer straight into them and cracked them open and put them under the faucet and let, hung them up to dry, and they're fine.
[49:28.700 --> 49:30.320]  [SPEAKER_25]: You sound, it sounds like you've done all this intentionally.
[49:31.300 --> 49:31.640]  [SPEAKER_25]: Right?
[49:31.640 --> 49:32.500]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah, absolutely.
[49:32.740 --> 49:35.700]  [SPEAKER_12]: Got a, got a, got a, got a plan for those, uh, late night parties.
[49:35.900 --> 49:36.060]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh-huh.
[49:36.520 --> 49:37.060]  [SPEAKER_25]: Sounds great.
[49:37.720 --> 49:40.900]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, um, tell us something about your, your provider, fly.net.
[49:41.040 --> 49:42.420]  [SPEAKER_25]: Is that, is that your provider or is that your...
[49:42.420 --> 49:43.020]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, that's us.
[49:43.140 --> 49:44.020]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's you, fly.net.
[49:44.080 --> 49:53.240]  [SPEAKER_12]: I mean, that's why we, we, we drew the, uh, the fiber down to the building to make sure that we had, uh, the capacity to, to, to, to provide service.
[49:53.520 --> 49:55.340]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, that's something that we're looking at now.
[49:55.660 --> 50:12.360]  [SPEAKER_12]: When we, when we came up with the, uh, the whole idea and concept, it was very, it's very important, uh, to us to provide, as I said, the best hardware that we possibly could and the best connectivity to, to find a really, uh, nice space, a great space,
[50:12.760 --> 50:19.440]  [SPEAKER_12]: uh, great physical space, and then provide a great virtual space through, through, uh, the best equipment that we could put together.
[50:19.740 --> 50:26.040]  [SPEAKER_12]: And it seemed to us that we would be the freest to provide that by creating our own service, thus fly.net.
[50:26.220 --> 50:46.640]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, so, so just like escape.com, uh, we, we have the capabilities in the restaurant to do, to, to, uh, do all those different things as well as hopefully get, get customers dialing in so that they can take advantage of the physical space and then go home and still take advantage of,
[50:46.760 --> 51:02.380]  [SPEAKER_12]: of the virtual space of, of our systems that, that I think there is a lot to be gained by being able to go in, work on a T1 at T1 access speeds, be able to keep your stuff there and then go home, dial in, and, and, and use it from home as well.
[51:02.520 --> 51:06.500]  [SPEAKER_25]: So you, you'll be providing accounts for people to, to keep their stuff on?
[51:06.640 --> 51:08.340]  [SPEAKER_12]: In the not too distant future, baby.
[51:08.580 --> 51:08.760]  [SPEAKER_12]: Mm-hmm.
[51:09.200 --> 51:09.420]  [SPEAKER_25]: Great.
[51:09.540 --> 51:11.800]  [SPEAKER_25]: So right now, right now it's just pretty much guest access.
[51:12.220 --> 51:12.580]  [SPEAKER_12]: Absolutely.
[51:12.860 --> 51:20.860]  [SPEAKER_12]: But we're, we're definitely, um, letting, letting, uh, the, the, the good and the proud in, in, uh, right away to sort of test out the system and beat it up a little bit.
[51:20.880 --> 51:21.020]  [SPEAKER_12]: Yeah.
[51:21.060 --> 51:28.100]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, that's, that's actually a very smart move, letting people like us in first so that we can, we can break everything and, and show you what's, what's, what's wrong with it.
[51:28.160 --> 51:31.400]  [SPEAKER_25]: Because, uh, has security been a big concern as, as far as starting this project?
[51:31.580 --> 51:32.400]  [SPEAKER_12]: Oh, oh, definitely.
[51:32.680 --> 51:36.060]  [SPEAKER_25]: Uh, people like to, uh... I mean, keeping you up nights and making you worry a lot?
[51:36.400 --> 51:42.020]  [SPEAKER_12]: Um, we try not to worry too much, but we're, we, we, we... I mean, you had Father Optic walk through the doors.
[51:42.260 --> 51:44.300]  [SPEAKER_25]: I mean, did you, did you, did you get a little nervous?
[51:44.480 --> 51:49.320]  [SPEAKER_12]: Oh my God, we, we, we tried to, uh, run over and, uh, get him a beer as quickly as possible.
[51:49.940 --> 51:59.640]  [SPEAKER_12]: But, uh, but no, we've tried to really be, we've tried to really be open and make it so clear to people that they're really welcome to do pretty much damn well what they please through, through, um, through our systems.
[51:59.720 --> 52:13.800]  [SPEAKER_12]: I guess I shouldn't say that, uh, with, without, uh, limitations, but that it's really about, we're, we're very much a, uh, open system and that we really have, I don't think that much of interest to, to, to mess or, to mess around with.
[52:13.880 --> 52:25.180]  [SPEAKER_12]: And hopefully that, that people will see the advantages of, of, uh, just coming in and, and, and, uh, making themselves known and then taking advantage of the resources because that's certainly, uh, less of a pain in the ass.
[52:25.340 --> 52:27.360]  [SPEAKER_25]: Do you expect to see more places like this opening up?
[52:27.580 --> 52:28.420]  [SPEAKER_25]: I think it's inevitable.
[52:28.660 --> 52:39.860]  [SPEAKER_12]: I think it's, uh, it's obvious to us all that the technology is growing so fast that, that, that, uh, that this is, this, this will soon not even be something for the press.
[52:39.960 --> 52:41.400]  [SPEAKER_12]: This will just be commonplace every day.
[52:41.540 --> 52:42.560]  [SPEAKER_12]: It's just a matter of access.
[52:42.740 --> 52:52.020]  [SPEAKER_12]: This is, to me, it's just a very logical extension, uh, uh, to, to have it in a, in a public place where you can come in and, and, uh, share it all around.
[52:52.280 --> 52:55.260]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, I think we're going to start seeing it right out on the streets.
[52:55.460 --> 52:57.640]  [SPEAKER_25]: I saw something like this a couple of years ago in California.
[52:57.640 --> 53:03.580]  [SPEAKER_25]: They had some in, in street cafes, but they weren't really tied into the net and they were kind of clumsy and slow.
[53:03.920 --> 53:08.420]  [SPEAKER_25]: And the most you could do is talk to somebody down the street, maybe if they happened to be sitting there at that moment.
[53:08.860 --> 53:12.580]  [SPEAKER_25]: Uh, no, see you, see me, of course it didn't exist then, so it wasn't really their fault.
[53:12.800 --> 53:12.940]  [SPEAKER_25]: Right.
[53:13.120 --> 53:16.760]  [SPEAKER_25]: Uh, but no access to the net, but you guys have blatant access.
[53:16.900 --> 53:17.720]  [SPEAKER_25]: You're right there on the net.
[53:17.860 --> 53:18.960]  [SPEAKER_25]: You're, you can go into IRC.
[53:19.100 --> 53:20.260]  [SPEAKER_25]: You can mail somebody something.
[53:20.460 --> 53:21.440]  [SPEAKER_25]: You can tell net places.
[53:21.500 --> 53:22.620]  [SPEAKER_25]: You can go on the worldwide web.
[53:22.720 --> 53:23.320]  [SPEAKER_25]: You can do all that.
[53:23.880 --> 53:28.540]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's, uh, you know, for me, that's, that's really amazing to be able to just walk into a place and do that.
[53:28.960 --> 53:32.360]  [SPEAKER_25]: And, um, I think that's, you know, that's, that's really something, something good.
[53:33.340 --> 53:33.660]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay.
[53:33.920 --> 53:37.700]  [SPEAKER_25]: So, um, any other details you want to give out?
[53:37.880 --> 53:38.680]  [SPEAKER_25]: Uh, when are you guys open?
[53:39.260 --> 53:43.040]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, we are, we're open, as again, we're on 12 St. Mark's between second and third.
[53:43.220 --> 53:45.560]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, you can see, uh, Astro Place from our doorstep.
[53:45.900 --> 53:49.000]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, and you can see our giant at flag hanging out there.
[53:49.220 --> 53:55.480]  [SPEAKER_12]: Uh, that, uh, we are, we are open during the week from 11 to 12.
[53:56.100 --> 53:58.440]  [SPEAKER_12]: We're, we're willing to stay open if the people are there.
[53:58.580 --> 54:00.080]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, you don't, you're not just open for an hour.
[54:00.200 --> 54:03.100]  [SPEAKER_25]: You're open from 11 in the morning until 12.
[54:03.100 --> 54:03.440]  [SPEAKER_12]: Okay.
[54:03.520 --> 54:05.940]  [SPEAKER_12]: I just wanted to make sure you weren't being overly cautious.
[54:05.940 --> 54:06.360]  [SPEAKER_12]: That's right.
[54:06.740 --> 54:08.920]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, uh, we, uh, on the weekend.
[54:09.140 --> 54:09.560]  [SPEAKER_05]: That's too early.
[54:09.660 --> 54:10.060]  [SPEAKER_25]: You know that.
[54:10.220 --> 54:10.540]  [SPEAKER_25]: Absolutely.
[54:10.540 --> 54:11.740]  [SPEAKER_25]: You gotta stay open later than midnight.
[54:11.820 --> 54:12.180]  [SPEAKER_05]: We might.
[54:12.180 --> 54:14.500]  [SPEAKER_05]: I think that, I think that that actually should be adjusted right now.
[54:14.580 --> 54:18.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: I think that's more 11 to two on the weekdays, 11 to four on the weekend.
[54:18.780 --> 54:20.220]  [SPEAKER_25]: You just adjusted the time right now.
[54:20.360 --> 54:20.800]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, fine.
[54:20.940 --> 54:22.060]  [SPEAKER_05]: For you, for you listeners.
[54:22.500 --> 54:25.520]  [SPEAKER_05]: And for tonight, and for tonight, we're hoping to have a little bit of a party for you guys down there tonight.
[54:25.700 --> 54:27.360]  [SPEAKER_05]: And the listeners, please come down.
[54:27.640 --> 54:29.820]  [SPEAKER_05]: Uh, anything, of course, to support WBAI.
[54:29.900 --> 54:30.560]  [SPEAKER_25]: That sounds like fun.
[54:30.860 --> 54:31.780]  [SPEAKER_25]: That sounds like a lot of fun.
[54:31.880 --> 54:33.660]  [SPEAKER_25]: So maybe we'll, uh, we'll pop on down there afterwards.
[54:34.120 --> 54:39.940]  [SPEAKER_25]: Uh, and maybe we'll even come down after the 2,600 meetings and then you'll really see a mob of, uh, of people.
[54:40.180 --> 54:41.120]  [SPEAKER_25]: Come on down, brothers.
[54:41.440 --> 54:44.480]  [SPEAKER_25]: Uh, you have a phone number where you want to give out for people to get more information?
[54:44.960 --> 54:45.600]  [SPEAKER_05]: Certainly, yes.
[54:45.900 --> 54:48.720]  [SPEAKER_05]: 2-1-2-9-7-9-5-4-3-9.
[54:48.920 --> 54:50.900]  [SPEAKER_05]: You can get, uh, get most of the information you want from that number.
[54:50.920 --> 54:57.320]  [SPEAKER_12]: And, and of course, www.fly.net as well as info at fly.net.
[54:57.800 --> 54:58.020]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay.
[54:58.120 --> 55:02.200]  [SPEAKER_25]: And that's the app cafe, 12, uh, St. Mark's place in New York.
[55:02.320 --> 55:08.840]  [SPEAKER_25]: The first of, uh, what we hope are, are many such establishments, um, providing access to the net as well as, uh, as well as food and drink.
[55:09.660 --> 55:11.780]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's, uh, it's the future coming right at you.
[55:11.900 --> 55:15.380]  [SPEAKER_25]: Thanks very much for, uh, Nick Barnes and, uh, Glenn McGinnis for being with us tonight.
[55:16.140 --> 55:20.800]  [SPEAKER_25]: And, um, that's, um, just another example of what's, uh, how things are changing.
[55:21.240 --> 55:25.660]  [SPEAKER_25]: We sort of, we sort of saw this coming at one point, but, uh, here it is.
[55:26.380 --> 55:27.140]  [SPEAKER_25]: Pretty amazing.
[55:27.380 --> 55:32.960]  [SPEAKER_25]: So we're here at WBAI again, uh, taking your pledges at 212-279-3400.
[55:33.120 --> 55:37.620]  [SPEAKER_25]: We have another special offer that we're going to be, uh, giving you in just a few minutes.
[55:37.760 --> 55:38.720]  [SPEAKER_25]: So stay tuned.
[55:39.160 --> 55:46.280]  [SPEAKER_25]: But if you want to, uh, call up and show your support in the interim, we have, um, uh, we don't have any more PPP accounts.
[55:46.400 --> 55:52.480]  [SPEAKER_25]: We're, we're, we're done with that, but we do have the 2600 subscription and the 2600 t-shirt.
[55:53.000 --> 55:58.360]  [SPEAKER_25]: Soon to be, uh, soon to be out of print, 2600 t-shirt for a pledge of $75.
[55:58.760 --> 56:00.420]  [SPEAKER_25]: 212-279-3400.
[56:00.600 --> 56:03.760]  [SPEAKER_25]: Give us a call while this music is playing.
[56:04.000 --> 56:04.420]  [SPEAKER_25]: Thank you.
[01:01:42.800 --> 01:01:44.880]  [SPEAKER_25]: And it's six minutes after 10 o'clock.
[01:01:45.040 --> 01:01:46.520]  [SPEAKER_25]: You're tuned to WBAI in New York.
[01:01:46.660 --> 01:01:47.780]  [SPEAKER_25]: The program is off the hook.
[01:01:47.960 --> 01:02:08.140]  [SPEAKER_25]: We're on until 1145 tonight, hoping to raise some money for the radio station to, uh, keep things going here so we can continue to bring you news of happenings in the world of cyberspace and individual freedom, liberty, that kind of thing, all that cool stuff that we've grown used to.
[01:02:09.420 --> 01:02:20.720]  [SPEAKER_25]: This is Emmanuel Goldstein here with, uh, fiber optic and, um, you know, we've got, uh, we've got some pretty exciting news, uh, which, uh, we want to, uh, update you on.
[01:02:20.720 --> 01:02:32.280]  [SPEAKER_25]: Um, I don't know if it's exciting, scary, or, or what have you, but do you know that, uh, that encryption has, uh, pretty much been outlawed?
[01:02:33.220 --> 01:02:36.080]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah, it's kind of shocking, don't you think?
[01:02:37.460 --> 01:02:37.900]  [SPEAKER_25]: Outlawed.
[01:02:40.360 --> 01:02:52.480]  [SPEAKER_25]: Measures to observe the law in development, production, sale, and use of encryption devices and provision of services in encrypting information.
[01:02:52.480 --> 01:02:54.960]  [SPEAKER_25]: This is a law dated April 3rd, 1995.
[01:02:55.700 --> 01:03:14.960]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now, what it does is, it restricts the use of encryption technologies by government agencies, state-owned, private, and foreign entities, and complements a rapidly growing body of law publicly regulating activities which previously were the exclusive domain of government intelligence,
[01:03:15.440 --> 01:03:19.200]  [SPEAKER_25]: uh, various national security agencies, and of the military.
[01:03:20.200 --> 01:03:50.820]  [SPEAKER_25]: The, uh, edict, which, uh, just came down pretty recently, bans the development, import, sale, and use of unlicensed encryption devices, as well as of protected technological means of storage, processing, and transmission of information, and directs the Federal Counterintelligence Service and other enforcement agencies to ensure compliance and to prosecute violators.
[01:03:50.820 --> 01:03:51.560]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's pretty scary.
[01:03:51.980 --> 01:03:54.660]  [SPEAKER_25]: Did, did any of you know that encryption has been outlawed?
[01:03:54.740 --> 01:03:55.280]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, it has been.
[01:03:55.380 --> 01:03:55.880]  [SPEAKER_25]: Look at this.
[01:03:56.620 --> 01:03:58.120]  [SPEAKER_25]: The, I mean, it's what it says.
[01:03:58.320 --> 01:04:10.300]  [SPEAKER_25]: The edict designates the Federal Agency of Government Telecommunications and Information Attached to the Office of the President as the authority responsible for the review of applications and issuance of licenses.
[01:04:11.880 --> 01:04:27.560]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now, uh, in accordance with this statute, uh, this organization, headed by a Director General, reports directly to the President and is responsible for the security of government communications as well as for intelligence operations in connection with encrypted and coded information.
[01:04:28.640 --> 01:04:38.380]  [SPEAKER_25]: They also have a research and development branch, uh, the Academy of Cryptography, several army units, government communications corps, radio surveillance engineering detachments.
[01:04:38.680 --> 01:04:47.380]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now, within its jurisdiction, this organization can issue orders and instruction which are mandatory for all government and private agencies and companies.
[01:04:48.960 --> 01:05:03.960]  [SPEAKER_25]: They, uh, issue licenses for encryption activities in accordance with internal regulations and pursuant to the government decree on licensing of certain types of activities, which sets forth general licensing guidelines for competent government agencies.
[01:05:05.620 --> 01:05:12.340]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, I guess there's one other detail I should point out as far as what this, uh, what this law means to you.
[01:05:13.280 --> 01:05:16.180]  [SPEAKER_25]: It, um, it, um, it happened in Russia.
[01:05:17.000 --> 01:05:26.780]  [SPEAKER_25]: It didn't happen here, but it's awfully close because this is something that came down.
[01:05:27.560 --> 01:05:33.200]  [SPEAKER_25]: I'm convinced a lot of people seem to be convinced as a result of FBI influence overseas.
[01:05:33.200 --> 01:05:46.380]  [SPEAKER_25]: In other words, uh, we're, we're kind of, uh, crusading to various other countries in the world, saying, you guys really should protect yourselves, take control of, uh, cryptography, uh, before your citizens do.
[01:05:46.700 --> 01:05:51.200]  [SPEAKER_25]: And that way you'll have, uh, you'll have some semblance of, uh, of control.
[01:05:52.360 --> 01:05:54.840]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's, um, it's a scary thing.
[01:05:55.100 --> 01:05:58.460]  [SPEAKER_25]: I mean, it's really, uh, it's really kind of, uh, disturbing to see this happening.
[01:05:58.680 --> 01:06:05.400]  [SPEAKER_25]: You might say, yeah, it's Russia, you know, okay, things happen in Russia, but Russia is supposed to be, uh, uh, moving towards democracy.
[01:06:06.880 --> 01:06:10.300]  [SPEAKER_25]: There's been a lot of talk in this country about things that are going to be happening here.
[01:06:10.500 --> 01:06:20.580]  [SPEAKER_25]: A lot of people see what happened in, uh, in Russia very, very recently within the last month as something indicative of what could happen here in the very near future.
[01:06:21.340 --> 01:06:23.920]  [SPEAKER_25]: Barbara, you're the one that, uh, that spotted this.
[01:06:23.920 --> 01:06:24.800]  [SPEAKER_25]: What do you think?
[01:06:24.820 --> 01:06:25.320]  [SPEAKER_25]: Are we surprised?
[01:06:26.020 --> 01:06:36.320]  [SPEAKER_21]: Uh, the initial occurrence, uh, when Boris Yeltsin formed this, this, I don't know if you want to call it a task force, but at least a government organization known as F-A-G-T-I.
[01:06:37.280 --> 01:06:44.080]  [SPEAKER_21]: And, um, they're supposed to actually enforce the unauthorized and unlicensed use of encryption.
[01:06:44.720 --> 01:06:50.260]  [SPEAKER_21]: And, uh, not very long after that, the, uh, director of the FBI, uh, Mr. Free.
[01:06:51.520 --> 01:06:52.400]  [SPEAKER_25]: Isn't that something?
[01:06:52.520 --> 01:06:53.120]  [SPEAKER_25]: Isn't that something?
[01:06:53.180 --> 01:06:53.880]  [SPEAKER_25]: His name is Free.
[01:06:54.120 --> 01:06:54.320]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah.
[01:06:54.440 --> 01:06:55.680]  [SPEAKER_21]: I think that's just incredible.
[01:06:56.200 --> 01:07:06.400]  [SPEAKER_21]: He, uh, he testified before Congress saying that, um, from, from what I can make out of it, it's almost as if to say that the digital telephony proposal just isn't enough.
[01:07:06.540 --> 01:07:08.040]  [SPEAKER_21]: It's not enough that we can wiretap.
[01:07:08.220 --> 01:07:08.520]  [SPEAKER_25]: Right.
[01:07:08.840 --> 01:07:10.180]  [SPEAKER_21]: And any phone line we want to.
[01:07:10.300 --> 01:07:11.040]  [SPEAKER_21]: I saw him.
[01:07:11.120 --> 01:07:12.160]  [SPEAKER_25]: I was watching C-SPAN.
[01:07:12.260 --> 01:07:21.480]  [SPEAKER_25]: I was watching those hearings and they were pretty frightening, uh, because basically after the Oklahoma City bombing, he said that the biggest problem was, uh, people communicating with impunity on the Internet using encryption.
[01:07:21.780 --> 01:07:22.720]  [SPEAKER_25]: We have to do something.
[01:07:22.820 --> 01:07:23.920]  [SPEAKER_25]: We have to address this problem.
[01:07:24.080 --> 01:07:24.780]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's a problem.
[01:07:24.900 --> 01:07:26.780]  [SPEAKER_25]: People communicating freely is a problem.
[01:07:27.700 --> 01:07:31.340]  [SPEAKER_25]: So, uh, that's, uh, that, that's a problem that he thinks that's a problem.
[01:07:31.560 --> 01:07:32.500]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's what I think.
[01:07:32.800 --> 01:07:39.500]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now, here's an article from, um, from Brock Meeks, uh, one of our favorite people because he's always on top of these things.
[01:07:39.720 --> 01:07:46.160]  [SPEAKER_25]: And, uh, this will give you an idea of where the situation is going in this country anyway.
[01:07:46.160 --> 01:07:52.640]  [SPEAKER_25]: Jacking in from the narco-terrorist encryption port, Brock Meeks with his cyberwire dispatch.
[01:07:53.600 --> 01:07:55.720]  [SPEAKER_25]: The other shoe has dropped several times.
[01:07:58.020 --> 01:08:12.660]  [SPEAKER_25]: In the political backlash and emotional fallout of the bombing of the federal building in Oklahoma City, FBI Director Louis Free has begun to wage his own private war on the use of private encryption schemes.
[01:08:14.600 --> 01:08:23.800]  [SPEAKER_25]: According to administration sources, several different proposals are now being discussed on how to implement a policy of government-mandated, government-certified encryption.
[01:08:23.960 --> 01:08:24.640]  [SPEAKER_25]: Does it sound familiar?
[01:08:24.800 --> 01:08:26.920]  [SPEAKER_25]: It sounds like what I just read from Russia.
[01:08:27.000 --> 01:08:36.180]  [SPEAKER_25]: The most hard line of these proposals would outlaw the public's ability to choose an encryption scheme which the government couldn't break under the authority of a court order.
[01:08:36.960 --> 01:08:39.060]  [SPEAKER_25]: Free has left no doubts about his intentions.
[01:08:39.060 --> 01:08:50.700]  [SPEAKER_25]: Not satisfied with the proposal he successfully rammed through Congress last year, the bill that gives law enforcement agencies easy wiretap access to digital conversations at a cost of 50 million dollars in taxpayer money.
[01:08:50.820 --> 01:08:52.260]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's the digital telephony bill.
[01:08:53.100 --> 01:08:55.020]  [SPEAKER_25]: His next target is private encryption.
[01:08:55.640 --> 01:09:02.180]  [SPEAKER_25]: During an appropriations hearing, May 11th Free told a congressional panel, we're in favor of strong encryption, robust encryption.
[01:09:02.540 --> 01:09:03.660]  [SPEAKER_25]: The country needs it.
[01:09:03.740 --> 01:09:04.520]  [SPEAKER_25]: Industry needs it.
[01:09:04.520 --> 01:09:06.780]  [SPEAKER_25]: We just want to make sure we have a trapdoor.
[01:09:09.260 --> 01:09:10.980]  [SPEAKER_25]: I'm sorry, it's just so funny.
[01:09:11.980 --> 01:09:14.720]  [SPEAKER_25]: We want strong encryption as long as it's not strong.
[01:09:15.480 --> 01:09:16.320]  [SPEAKER_25]: Oh boy.
[01:09:17.040 --> 01:09:23.800]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, we just want to make sure we have a trapdoor and key under some judge's authority where we can get there if somebody is planning a crime.
[01:09:24.580 --> 01:09:25.440]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's incredible.
[01:09:25.640 --> 01:09:28.520]  [SPEAKER_25]: You know, nobody would have ever caught Timothy McVeigh.
[01:09:28.680 --> 01:09:31.720]  [SPEAKER_25]: He didn't use the net, he didn't use encryption at all.
[01:09:31.840 --> 01:09:32.780]  [SPEAKER_25]: It didn't make a difference.
[01:09:33.400 --> 01:09:36.500]  [SPEAKER_25]: So all of this is a is kind of a moot point.
[01:09:36.700 --> 01:09:38.340]  [SPEAKER_25]: It wouldn't have applied to this case.
[01:09:38.360 --> 01:09:42.820]  [SPEAKER_25]: You can still blow up buildings and do all kinds of terrorist things without communicating over the net.
[01:09:43.000 --> 01:09:45.780]  [SPEAKER_25]: So it's it's it's obviously that's not the point.
[01:09:46.380 --> 01:09:47.640]  [SPEAKER_25]: Anyway, let's continue with the article.
[01:09:47.880 --> 01:09:54.540]  [SPEAKER_25]: That means an end to private non-government encryption, which doesn't have keys the government can use.
[01:09:55.400 --> 01:10:02.380]  [SPEAKER_25]: Private encryption schemes allow a person to scramble an electronic message that if intercepted by an unintended party, renders it unreadable.
[01:10:02.640 --> 01:10:18.540]  [SPEAKER_25]: These scrambling programs are useful to a wide range of people and interest, including researchers who want to keep their proprietary breakthroughs safe from prying eyes to corporations sending trade secrets to a distant office across the net to ordinary folks sending a steamy love letter to a lover.
[01:10:19.900 --> 01:10:31.360]  [SPEAKER_25]: But these same encryption programs are being used by terrorists and international drug traffickers as well, claims FBI Director Free, and that makes private encryption schemes a threat to national security.
[01:10:33.440 --> 01:10:44.200]  [SPEAKER_25]: But Free's crusade against encryption has been enjoined by members of the justice department with the gleeful back alley goading the nation's top spook group, the national security agency.
[01:10:44.360 --> 01:10:52.560]  [SPEAKER_25]: And when it comes right down to it, your privacy rights don't stand as snowball's chance in hell of outweighing pictures of dead babies or pieces of dead babies.
[01:10:56.630 --> 01:11:00.150]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's really incredible some of the things that they say here.
[01:11:00.450 --> 01:11:05.570]  [SPEAKER_25]: One of them is that they actually think that criminals... here's a part here.
[01:11:05.650 --> 01:11:11.110]  [SPEAKER_25]: Why would criminals knowingly use a device like the clipper chip that they know the government could easily tap?
[01:11:12.010 --> 01:11:15.170]  [SPEAKER_25]: Because criminals are stupid was the FBI's party line.
[01:11:15.650 --> 01:11:17.550]  [SPEAKER_25]: No, I am not making this up.
[01:11:19.050 --> 01:11:19.710]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's right.
[01:11:20.670 --> 01:11:26.870]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now, Free hasn't publicly outlined just how he proposes to resolve the encryption problem.
[01:11:26.990 --> 01:11:30.550]  [SPEAKER_25]: However, according to an FBI source, several plans are in the works.
[01:11:30.710 --> 01:11:36.610]  [SPEAKER_25]: The source refused to detail any specific plan, but added, let's just say everything is on the table.
[01:11:36.870 --> 01:11:39.250]  [SPEAKER_25]: Does that include outlawing private encryption schemes?
[01:11:39.630 --> 01:11:42.590]  [SPEAKER_25]: I said everything, the source said.
[01:12:05.520 --> 01:12:09.980]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, I don't know about you, but that makes me feel kind of afraid, doesn't it?
[01:12:10.340 --> 01:12:27.200]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yes, it really concerns me greatly that something like that could just kind of slip through and no one really seems to know very much about it as far as the average citizen who may or may not have heard about encryption, but I'm certain ultimately will see the benefits in it.
[01:12:27.700 --> 01:12:32.540]  [SPEAKER_21]: And it's a shame that it's possible that by the time they realize that it might be illegal.
[01:12:34.040 --> 01:12:35.360]  [SPEAKER_25]: Here's something interesting.
[01:12:35.480 --> 01:12:40.860]  [SPEAKER_25]: An NSA source, when questioned about his agency's role in the process, was reluctant to speak.
[01:12:41.140 --> 01:12:45.380]  [SPEAKER_25]: He did say that Clipper was merely act one of a three-part play.
[01:12:46.000 --> 01:12:47.200]  [SPEAKER_25]: Press for further details.
[01:12:47.420 --> 01:12:49.560]  [SPEAKER_25]: He said, do your own homework.
[01:12:51.420 --> 01:12:57.140]  [SPEAKER_25]: These guys are up to something, and it's pretty scary when you think of it.
[01:12:58.270 --> 01:13:10.270]  [SPEAKER_25]: Except for the rise of an offshore black market encryption trade, the administration is hoping the public will buy off on the fact that one, it's private industry holding the keys, not government agencies.
[01:13:10.680 --> 01:13:15.540]  [SPEAKER_25]: Two, the availability of choice among several different vendors will squash the imagery of Big Brother.
[01:13:16.380 --> 01:13:20.310]  [SPEAKER_25]: But again, there's that black market, which we'll soon be a part of, I'm sure.
[01:13:21.040 --> 01:13:22.040]  [SPEAKER_25]: And it's going to come.
[01:13:22.440 --> 01:13:23.760]  [SPEAKER_25]: It will have to be a black market.
[01:13:23.860 --> 01:13:32.200]  [SPEAKER_25]: The FBI has already gone around the world preaching the evils of private encryption, trying to get other law enforcement groups to push for outlawing such programs in their own countries.
[01:13:32.500 --> 01:13:34.920]  [SPEAKER_25]: And they already have a convert, Russia.
[01:13:35.860 --> 01:13:37.920]  [SPEAKER_25]: That country recently adopted such a policy.
[01:13:38.040 --> 01:13:38.540]  [SPEAKER_25]: Nice to know.
[01:13:39.020 --> 01:13:41.000]  [SPEAKER_25]: We're following in Mr. Yeltsin's footsteps.
[01:13:41.000 --> 01:13:41.140]  [SPEAKER_25]: Excerpts.
[01:13:42.220 --> 01:13:44.380]  [SPEAKER_25]: Excerpts from Brock Meek's article.
[01:13:44.640 --> 01:13:47.200]  [SPEAKER_25]: You can get the full text of it on 2600.com.
[01:13:47.270 --> 01:13:49.800]  [SPEAKER_25]: FTP to 2600.com.
[01:13:49.940 --> 01:13:51.720]  [SPEAKER_25]: Log in as either anonymous or FTP.
[01:13:52.540 --> 01:13:54.140]  [SPEAKER_25]: And I think it's the first thing you see.
[01:13:54.270 --> 01:13:55.760]  [SPEAKER_25]: We make sure people see things like this.
[01:13:56.040 --> 01:13:58.880]  [SPEAKER_25]: And download that and spread it around so people know about this.
[01:13:59.020 --> 01:14:01.680]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's probably the best thing we can do right now.
[01:14:01.730 --> 01:14:04.620]  [SPEAKER_25]: If you're going to contact Brock, he's a source of information of all sorts.
[01:14:04.920 --> 01:14:08.860]  [SPEAKER_25]: His address is Brock, B-R-O-C-K, at well.com.
[01:14:09.020 --> 01:14:15.580]  [SPEAKER_25]: You know, the well is changing their name from well.sf.ca.us to well.com for their official name.
[01:14:15.800 --> 01:14:20.620]  [SPEAKER_25]: The other one will still work, but I just got a note saying that they're going to be officially changing that.
[01:14:22.510 --> 01:14:23.040]  [SPEAKER_25]: Is it?
[01:14:23.160 --> 01:14:24.060]  [SPEAKER_25]: I kind of like that.
[01:14:24.180 --> 01:14:35.880]  [SPEAKER_25]: I mean, why is it that every other country has to put their, uh, you know, their, their two-letter acronym at the end and we don't, you know, I think everything, everything should be .us if it's truly an international, an international, uh, type of thing.
[01:14:37.920 --> 01:14:42.100]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, that noise that you hear in the background is, uh, the sound of slint as they fade away.
[01:14:43.400 --> 01:14:47.880]  [SPEAKER_25]: And I want to thank them for providing some backup, uh, instrumentals for us while we talk about encryption.
[01:14:48.040 --> 01:14:48.400]  [SPEAKER_25]: Thank you guys.
[01:14:48.520 --> 01:14:49.120]  [SPEAKER_25]: You can go home now.
[01:14:51.390 --> 01:14:52.260]  [SPEAKER_25]: Oh, thank you.
[01:14:53.020 --> 01:14:53.560]  [SPEAKER_25]: All right.
[01:14:54.480 --> 01:14:56.700]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's, uh, that's pretty much what's going on there.
[01:14:56.810 --> 01:15:00.980]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now we have a story, a story of, uh, is it encryption or is it scanners or what?
[01:15:01.100 --> 01:15:02.700]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's actually a story referring to scanners.
[01:15:02.940 --> 01:15:03.100]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay.
[01:15:03.120 --> 01:15:03.800]  [SPEAKER_25]: Who are you, first of all?
[01:15:03.880 --> 01:15:04.900]  [SPEAKER_25]: This is Master Chemist.
[01:15:05.230 --> 01:15:06.160]  [SPEAKER_25]: Master Chemist.
[01:15:06.500 --> 01:15:06.730]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay.
[01:15:06.730 --> 01:15:07.860]  [SPEAKER_25]: We'll put your test tubes away.
[01:15:08.000 --> 01:15:08.880]  [SPEAKER_25]: We'll play those later.
[01:15:09.200 --> 01:15:09.460]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yes.
[01:15:09.770 --> 01:15:10.180]  [SPEAKER_24]: All right.
[01:15:10.400 --> 01:15:15.500]  [SPEAKER_24]: Well, I was actually, uh, interested in seeing what the actual story was and trying to get a scanner.
[01:15:15.700 --> 01:15:18.920]  [SPEAKER_24]: I'd heard all these stories, so I thought I'd actually see what's going on.
[01:15:18.920 --> 01:15:31.340]  [SPEAKER_24]: I walked into one of the tri-state area's larger electronics centers, and I asked them if I could have a, uh, Uniden Barakat 220 XLT.
[01:15:31.730 --> 01:15:35.160]  [SPEAKER_24]: And they asked me, first question out of their mouth was, why do you want this one?
[01:15:35.230 --> 01:15:37.340]  [SPEAKER_24]: Because it happened to be one of their most expensive models.
[01:15:37.800 --> 01:15:39.540]  [SPEAKER_24]: And I was like, well, I'm interested in scanning.
[01:15:39.700 --> 01:15:42.300]  [SPEAKER_24]: And they were like, well, we have several models that, you know, for a young guy.
[01:15:42.520 --> 01:15:47.520]  [SPEAKER_24]: Well, actually he said, for a young boy, for a young boy, such as yourself.
[01:15:48.660 --> 01:15:52.730]  [SPEAKER_24]: And now being, you know, over six feet tall, I kind of get the feeling I don't give that image.
[01:15:52.840 --> 01:15:57.270]  [SPEAKER_24]: But still, he said he had several models that were a lot cheaper and would serve the same function.
[01:15:57.680 --> 01:16:01.200]  [SPEAKER_24]: And I told him that I was interested in getting somewhere in the 800 range.
[01:16:01.200 --> 01:16:04.600]  [SPEAKER_24]: And he immediately looked at me as if I'd committed a crime.
[01:16:05.460 --> 01:16:08.120]  [SPEAKER_24]: And so things concluded.
[01:16:08.120 --> 01:16:12.620]  [SPEAKER_24]: And I purchased the, uh, BC 220 XLT, took it home.
[01:16:12.840 --> 01:16:23.060]  [SPEAKER_24]: And part of one of the reasons why I finally did was all over the box, it was written that this scanner receives the 800 public service range.
[01:16:23.420 --> 01:16:27.760]  [SPEAKER_24]: So I was kind of excited about that, but no, no such luck.
[01:16:28.040 --> 01:16:35.140]  [SPEAKER_24]: So getting it home on the first couple of pamphlets, this scanner receives the 800 public service range.
[01:16:35.560 --> 01:16:43.770]  [SPEAKER_24]: And then, uh, reading through it, there was small print on the last page that said, this scanner will not pick up cellular phone conversation.
[01:16:44.020 --> 01:16:46.140]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, now that seems like a contradiction there.
[01:16:46.270 --> 01:16:47.260]  [SPEAKER_24]: That is very true.
[01:16:47.560 --> 01:16:58.580]  [SPEAKER_24]: So playing with the scanner, I realized that it blocked out all ranges from 868.00 to 890.00, which I really found quite disturbing.
[01:16:58.900 --> 01:17:03.620]  [SPEAKER_24]: So then I called technical support, which is open 24 hours a day at our good friends at Uniden.
[01:17:04.020 --> 01:17:08.760]  [SPEAKER_24]: And I asked her if there was any reason why my scanner wouldn't pick up between those two ranges.
[01:17:09.020 --> 01:17:14.980]  [SPEAKER_24]: And she told me that it was completely illegal to try and get anything within those two ranges.
[01:17:15.360 --> 01:17:19.000]  [SPEAKER_24]: She's telling me because they were reserved for cellular phone use.
[01:17:19.120 --> 01:17:25.220]  [SPEAKER_24]: And I said, yes, what your product has on the box that it covers completely from 50 to 900 megahertz.
[01:17:25.620 --> 01:17:33.620]  [SPEAKER_24]: And she said, well, that one area is blocked out for the safety of yourself and for those using cellular telephones.
[01:17:33.640 --> 01:17:35.340]  [SPEAKER_25]: Did she really say for the safety of yourself?
[01:17:35.600 --> 01:17:36.160]  [SPEAKER_24]: Yes, she did.
[01:17:36.300 --> 01:17:43.960]  [SPEAKER_24]: She told me that to ask any additional questions that for my own information, I may want to be aware that I am asking illegal questions.
[01:17:44.120 --> 01:17:45.360]  [SPEAKER_25]: How can you ask illegal questions?
[01:17:45.800 --> 01:17:47.100]  [SPEAKER_24]: I speak of truth.
[01:17:47.420 --> 01:17:47.980]  [SPEAKER_25]: Oh boy.
[01:17:48.180 --> 01:17:49.880]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, I don't think that's speaking of truth there.
[01:17:49.980 --> 01:18:10.980]  [SPEAKER_24]: The sad issue is, in relation to an article that was in 2600, which obviously the people at Uniden aren't aware of, the issue of harmonics, that adding 21.4 to any signal you catch that would say maybe be in the 868 to 890 range, you can actually hear the echo of what's actually being said.
[01:18:11.180 --> 01:18:17.920]  [SPEAKER_24]: So the truth is that the Barakat 220 XLT does not truly block out all cellular phone conversations.
[01:18:18.220 --> 01:18:20.980]  [SPEAKER_24]: And I found it quite angry that I wasn't able to get that range.
[01:18:21.180 --> 01:18:34.340]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, you know, there's one thing that I've noticed over the past week or so, and that's how I was looking at some scanner ads in various magazines, such as popular communications, monitoring times, things like that.
[01:18:34.580 --> 01:18:43.480]  [SPEAKER_25]: And you know how they said when they passed this law that they were going to make it illegal to manufacture radios they could get in the 800 megahertz range?
[01:18:43.480 --> 01:18:45.600]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, it seems to have changed a bit.
[01:18:45.730 --> 01:18:55.460]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now it's, um, if you look at the, at the radios, yeah, they, they do block those, but they say that 800 to 900 megahertz is reserved for government use only.
[01:18:56.220 --> 01:19:00.100]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now that's not, that's not how they, how they worded the law when they originally passed this thing.
[01:19:00.180 --> 01:19:01.730]  [SPEAKER_25]: They said it was illegal to listen.
[01:19:02.020 --> 01:19:06.100]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now, apparently if you're a government employee, it's legal for you to listen.
[01:19:06.380 --> 01:19:09.060]  [SPEAKER_25]: Only government employees can listen to cellular phone calls.
[01:19:09.600 --> 01:19:18.300]  [SPEAKER_24]: Now, what is really disturbing for me is that all over the box was written clear as day, this device will cover the entire 800 range.
[01:19:18.860 --> 01:19:24.940]  [SPEAKER_24]: It said, actually, I don't want to misquote them, it says this device will cover the 800 public service range.
[01:19:25.270 --> 01:19:29.620]  [SPEAKER_24]: And it was written on the box, it was written on the sides of the box, and it was written in the manual several times.
[01:19:29.620 --> 01:19:32.120]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, it's probably that, that public service is how they're getting away with it.
[01:19:32.220 --> 01:19:41.880]  [SPEAKER_25]: Public service, uh, area is probably not where the cellular phone calls are because the number of, of agencies do use 800 megahertz for various things, uh, not cellular phone, uh, phone calls.
[01:19:42.340 --> 01:19:48.360]  [SPEAKER_25]: But, um, it's still, it's still kind of deceptive because, uh, you, you, you go in there thinking you're going to get something.
[01:19:48.480 --> 01:19:52.500]  [SPEAKER_25]: But I would say to people looking to buy something like that, it's really not possible anymore.
[01:19:52.920 --> 01:19:56.400]  [SPEAKER_25]: Um, we were talking about this for a couple of years actually, and it's, it's finally happened.
[01:19:56.810 --> 01:20:02.420]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's virtually impossible for you to get, uh, a scanner that will get cellular phone calls in this country.
[01:20:02.520 --> 01:20:05.420]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now you can go over to Canada and you can, uh, you can buy one there.
[01:20:05.540 --> 01:20:06.860]  [SPEAKER_25]: I don't know if they block other frequencies.
[01:20:06.860 --> 01:20:07.440]  [SPEAKER_25]: They might.
[01:20:07.920 --> 01:20:10.560]  [SPEAKER_25]: I know other countries block certain other frequencies.
[01:20:10.560 --> 01:20:12.140]  [SPEAKER_25]: In England, you can't get the police at all.
[01:20:12.700 --> 01:20:15.060]  [SPEAKER_25]: And, um, who knows what frequencies they use?
[01:20:15.160 --> 01:20:20.400]  [SPEAKER_25]: You know, they, they may use, uh, our TV channels for, for, for police frequencies over there for all we know.
[01:20:20.580 --> 01:20:21.940]  [SPEAKER_24]: Well, if it's in the air, it should be free.
[01:20:22.360 --> 01:20:24.140]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's, uh, that's, that's, that's logic.
[01:20:24.340 --> 01:20:33.120]  [SPEAKER_25]: You see, you're injecting logic into this and, uh, when it comes to making laws and things like that, I don't know, it's, it's, it's, It's not that easy to assume that.
[01:20:34.040 --> 01:20:36.040]  [SPEAKER_25]: We're coming to some pretty weird times here.
[01:20:36.220 --> 01:20:41.480]  [SPEAKER_25]: We're talking about scanners gets you in trouble, and everything is blocked.
[01:20:41.640 --> 01:20:47.760]  [SPEAKER_25]: But one thing that I think will overcome this is ingenuity, figuring out a way to bypass the system.
[01:20:48.260 --> 01:20:51.700]  [SPEAKER_25]: And I think virtually every scanner can be bypassed in some way.
[01:20:52.020 --> 01:21:01.460]  [SPEAKER_21]: I think it's interesting to note that all you diehard folks out there that still have your old television sets before the whole cable-ready era...
[01:21:01.460 --> 01:21:02.460]  [SPEAKER_25]: You'd have to turn them in, don't they?
[01:21:03.500 --> 01:21:11.960]  [SPEAKER_21]: All those old TV sets that still go up to Channel 83 on the UHF band, you could tune into the cellular telephone range.
[01:21:12.080 --> 01:21:13.810]  [SPEAKER_21]: You know, I've never been able to get that to work.
[01:21:13.810 --> 01:21:14.560]  [SPEAKER_21]: I've tried that.
[01:21:14.800 --> 01:21:16.180]  [SPEAKER_21]: Oh, I've gotten it to work easily.
[01:21:16.380 --> 01:21:17.640]  [SPEAKER_25]: Maybe it's a TV set.
[01:21:17.860 --> 01:21:20.620]  [SPEAKER_21]: You don't need any special antenna or anything.
[01:21:20.620 --> 01:21:23.230]  [SPEAKER_21]: If you're in the city, you could use the old-fashioned...
[01:21:23.770 --> 01:21:25.080]  [SPEAKER_21]: It was a little circular.
[01:21:25.080 --> 01:21:29.020]  [SPEAKER_21]: It was like a piece of wire bent in a circle on the back of the TV set.
[01:21:29.520 --> 01:21:33.340]  [SPEAKER_21]: And you could switch somewhere between Channel 70 and 83.
[01:21:33.960 --> 01:21:39.300]  [SPEAKER_21]: You can fine-tune, and you can pick up cellular telephone conversations with no problem at all.
[01:21:40.000 --> 01:21:41.760]  [SPEAKER_25]: But it is illegal to do that.
[01:21:41.760 --> 01:21:42.740]  [SPEAKER_25]: It is illegal to do this.
[01:21:42.860 --> 01:21:43.920]  [SPEAKER_25]: Very illegal to do that.
[01:21:45.180 --> 01:21:46.640]  [SPEAKER_25]: Unbelievable what we're telling people here.
[01:21:47.120 --> 01:21:49.300]  [SPEAKER_25]: Not that we're telling people how to listen to cellular phone calls.
[01:21:49.360 --> 01:21:52.740]  [SPEAKER_25]: In fact, we're telling them it's illegal to turn your TV set and hear something.
[01:21:53.640 --> 01:21:54.440]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's insane.
[01:21:55.080 --> 01:21:55.480]  [SPEAKER_25]: I don't know.
[01:21:55.660 --> 01:21:57.000]  [SPEAKER_25]: I feel like I'm going into fantasy world here.
[01:21:57.340 --> 01:22:02.620]  [SPEAKER_25]: One thing, when I was looking at that TV set, though, I did notice a lot of weird UHF channels that we get up here.
[01:22:02.740 --> 01:22:03.920]  [SPEAKER_25]: Like, there's a 3D channel.
[01:22:04.140 --> 01:22:05.520]  [SPEAKER_25]: There's a Korean channel.
[01:22:05.680 --> 01:22:06.180]  [SPEAKER_25]: There's all kinds of...
[01:22:06.180 --> 01:22:10.260]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah, there's a 3D channel that actually comes from Stevens Institute in New Jersey.
[01:22:10.420 --> 01:22:10.580]  [SPEAKER_21]: Uh-huh.
[01:22:10.780 --> 01:22:11.940]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's kind of neat.
[01:22:12.160 --> 01:22:12.320]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah.
[01:22:12.320 --> 01:22:15.200]  [SPEAKER_25]: You know, I owe that to looking for cellular phone calls.
[01:22:15.460 --> 01:22:18.920]  [SPEAKER_25]: But there's all kinds of wacky TV stations out there that don't get listed anywhere.
[01:22:19.340 --> 01:22:21.020]  [SPEAKER_25]: So you might want to explore for those, too.
[01:22:22.180 --> 01:22:25.140]  [SPEAKER_25]: So, yeah, that's the latest on scanners.
[01:22:26.180 --> 01:22:28.520]  [SPEAKER_25]: You know, they're kind of elusive.
[01:22:28.860 --> 01:22:33.900]  [SPEAKER_25]: And we're open to hear what people have to say about their experiences.
[01:22:35.500 --> 01:22:38.040]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, now to update people on Kevin Mitnick.
[01:22:38.180 --> 01:22:39.480]  [SPEAKER_25]: Again, to update you on our phone number.
[01:22:39.640 --> 01:22:40.840]  [SPEAKER_25]: Remember, we're here to raise money tonight.
[01:22:41.000 --> 01:22:42.640]  [SPEAKER_25]: 212-279-3400.
[01:22:42.780 --> 01:22:45.300]  [SPEAKER_25]: We have a special deal we're going to be getting to in just a couple of minutes.
[01:22:45.480 --> 01:22:49.200]  [SPEAKER_25]: We're up to $13.50 on our total, which is good.
[01:22:49.340 --> 01:22:51.460]  [SPEAKER_25]: But we need to keep those calls coming in.
[01:22:52.320 --> 01:22:53.780]  [SPEAKER_25]: We're going to present you with some information.
[01:22:53.980 --> 01:22:57.100]  [SPEAKER_25]: And, Fiber, I'd like you to listen to this because I don't think you've heard this yet.
[01:22:57.680 --> 01:23:00.280]  [SPEAKER_25]: And this is something I only just got a couple of days ago.
[01:23:00.280 --> 01:23:07.740]  [SPEAKER_25]: So, this has to do with what happened before Kevin was caught.
[01:23:07.980 --> 01:23:11.420]  [SPEAKER_25]: In fact, this has to do with what happened at the very, very beginning.
[01:23:12.340 --> 01:23:19.040]  [SPEAKER_25]: All right, this is probably having to do with why he was on the run in the first place.
[01:23:19.080 --> 01:23:20.500]  [SPEAKER_25]: Remember, we keep asking these questions.
[01:23:21.380 --> 01:23:24.940]  [SPEAKER_25]: They keep saying he violated probation, but no one knows why.
[01:23:25.360 --> 01:23:28.820]  [SPEAKER_25]: All right, this is a document.
[01:23:28.820 --> 01:23:29.880]  [SPEAKER_25]: The United States v.
[01:23:30.080 --> 01:23:35.700]  [SPEAKER_25]: Kevin David Mitnick, respectfully presenting petition for action of court for cause as follows.
[01:23:36.200 --> 01:23:42.920]  [SPEAKER_25]: It is alleged that the above-mentioned supervised releasee has violated the terms and conditions to wit.
[01:23:43.160 --> 01:24:01.680]  [SPEAKER_25]: One, having previously been instructed regarding the special conditions prohibiting engaging in any illegal or unauthorized access into any computers or telecommunication devices, on August 7, 1992, Mr. Mitnick participated in the unauthorized access of Pacific Bell Computers' confidential voicemail system.
[01:24:01.940 --> 01:24:16.160]  [SPEAKER_25]: This was accomplished through the unauthorized use of confidential and personal passwords of Pacific Bell Telephone Company security investigators who, along with local authorities, have been investigating Mr. Mitnick's employer at the time, Teltec Investigations.
[01:24:16.160 --> 01:24:31.760]  [SPEAKER_25]: Two, the offender had previously been instructed regarding the special condition prohibiting him from associating with or being in the company of any person or persons known to have engaged in the illegal or unauthorized access of computers or telecommunication devices.
[01:24:32.060 --> 01:24:42.200]  [SPEAKER_25]: The offender violated this condition beginning on a date unknown and continuing to at least September 29, 1992, as he maintained association with one Louis DePayne.
[01:24:42.320 --> 01:24:50.520]  [SPEAKER_25]: Mr. DePayne had been convicted of violation of 182-502 penal code conspiracy to commit computer fraud on April 2, 1982.
[01:24:51.500 --> 01:25:05.680]  [SPEAKER_25]: Records reflect that Mr. Mitnick was a juvenile co-conspirator in this offense for which a petition was requested and sustained against the offender for violation of 502-C penal code computer fraud and 459-Penal Code burglary on June 25, 1981.
[01:25:07.140 --> 01:25:08.160]  [SPEAKER_25]: What do you think of that?
[01:25:08.480 --> 01:25:09.700]  [SPEAKER_21]: Well, that's pretty interesting.
[01:25:09.960 --> 01:25:12.740]  [SPEAKER_21]: So, he was basically working for a private investigation?
[01:25:12.740 --> 01:25:18.420]  [SPEAKER_25]: It sounds to me, yeah, like he had some sort of a job with a private eye and the private eye was under investigation.
[01:25:18.600 --> 01:25:21.140]  [SPEAKER_25]: Therefore, Kevin was under investigation for that.
[01:25:22.940 --> 01:25:24.860]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's, I mean, it seems a little murky here.
[01:25:24.980 --> 01:25:28.520]  [SPEAKER_25]: Using voicemail systems, logging into someone's voicemail account.
[01:25:29.240 --> 01:25:30.900]  [SPEAKER_25]: Again, you know, where's the proof?
[01:25:31.140 --> 01:25:33.580]  [SPEAKER_25]: How did they know it was actually him doing this?
[01:25:34.080 --> 01:25:42.700]  [SPEAKER_25]: And, okay, we're talking about logging into a voicemail system, which presumably was using a default password, which I wouldn't be surprised.
[01:25:43.500 --> 01:25:46.100]  [SPEAKER_25]: And they don't really go into detail as to what it was.
[01:25:46.220 --> 01:25:49.120]  [SPEAKER_25]: I mean, they pretty much classify these crimes all the same way.
[01:25:49.160 --> 01:25:52.520]  [SPEAKER_25]: You enter a mailbox once, even by accident.
[01:25:52.860 --> 01:25:55.620]  [SPEAKER_25]: You know, you enter a default password and say, hey, it works.
[01:25:55.760 --> 01:26:00.720]  [SPEAKER_25]: Or you stalk somebody and you enter that password every single day for their entire lives.
[01:26:00.920 --> 01:26:03.180]  [SPEAKER_25]: They pretty much classify it the same way.
[01:26:03.320 --> 01:26:05.980]  [SPEAKER_25]: He illegally entered a voicemail system.
[01:26:06.860 --> 01:26:21.760]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's the whole basis for saying that his probation has been violated for making him become a fugitive, for him being on the run for years, for him having this nationwide front-page manhunt going on, and eventually his capture earlier this year.
[01:26:21.760 --> 01:26:27.360]  [SPEAKER_25]: Or, and God only knows, you know, what kind of prison sentence he's eventually going to wind up with.
[01:26:27.480 --> 01:26:29.860]  [SPEAKER_25]: But this, apparently, is where it all began.
[01:26:31.000 --> 01:26:34.300]  [SPEAKER_25]: And, you know, I kind of thought it would be something trivial.
[01:26:35.140 --> 01:26:37.140]  [SPEAKER_25]: And this certainly seems to fit into that.
[01:26:37.260 --> 01:26:40.820]  [SPEAKER_25]: I don't see anything, any real smoking gun there.
[01:26:40.920 --> 01:26:43.460]  [SPEAKER_25]: I intend to look into this a little bit more, as to just what was going on.
[01:26:43.600 --> 01:26:47.060]  [SPEAKER_25]: But, you know, people do this kind of thing all the time.
[01:26:47.480 --> 01:26:55.480]  [SPEAKER_25]: Even if it's proven that he was doing that kind of thing in the first place, perhaps his employer was doing this kind of thing, and he was just employed by somebody not knowing what they were up to.
[01:26:55.640 --> 01:26:56.960]  [SPEAKER_25]: There's all kinds of possibilities.
[01:26:57.160 --> 01:26:59.980]  [SPEAKER_25]: It doesn't seem like Kevin has been given any benefit of the doubt whatsoever.
[01:27:01.180 --> 01:27:03.240]  [SPEAKER_25]: He is still, by the way, in North Carolina.
[01:27:05.140 --> 01:27:11.520]  [SPEAKER_25]: We're waiting for verification of the address we have for him, and hopefully we'll be able to provide that to people in the weeks ahead.
[01:27:13.100 --> 01:27:15.740]  [SPEAKER_25]: So, that's pretty much it, as far as that goes.
[01:27:15.880 --> 01:27:18.460]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now, was Kevin banned from using all computers initially?
[01:27:18.460 --> 01:27:19.560]  [SPEAKER_25]: No, he wasn't.
[01:27:19.680 --> 01:27:26.260]  [SPEAKER_25]: Obviously, he couldn't have been, because it's very difficult to get through life not using a computer at all.
[01:27:26.300 --> 01:27:27.920]  [SPEAKER_25]: I know he was banned from using a modem.
[01:27:28.160 --> 01:27:28.440]  [SPEAKER_25]: Oh.
[01:27:29.160 --> 01:27:34.520]  [SPEAKER_25]: But, again, that ended at the end of his probation, which was, I believe, in 1992.
[01:27:35.080 --> 01:27:35.220]  [SPEAKER_25]: Really?
[01:27:36.560 --> 01:27:44.840]  [SPEAKER_25]: And from what I understand, from what I hear, and this has not yet been verified, they knocked on his door two hours after his probation had ended.
[01:27:45.660 --> 01:27:50.040]  [SPEAKER_25]: Two hours, and this was at about 2 o'clock in the morning, mind you, because probation ended at midnight.
[01:27:50.940 --> 01:27:52.220]  [SPEAKER_25]: And he had already left.
[01:27:52.620 --> 01:27:54.640]  [SPEAKER_25]: He somehow knew they were going to do that.
[01:27:55.300 --> 01:27:56.840]  [SPEAKER_25]: He always expressed a fear.
[01:27:56.860 --> 01:28:07.040]  [SPEAKER_25]: I remember we had a friend of his on the air a month or so ago who said that Kevin had told him that he had the feeling that a minute before his probation was up, they would get him on something.
[01:28:07.180 --> 01:28:08.660]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, it wasn't quite that.
[01:28:08.680 --> 01:28:09.620]  [SPEAKER_25]: It was very close, though.
[01:28:10.380 --> 01:28:11.600]  [SPEAKER_25]: They were after him.
[01:28:11.600 --> 01:28:12.940]  [SPEAKER_25]: They were looking for something to get him on.
[01:28:13.780 --> 01:28:14.500]  [SPEAKER_25]: And they did.
[01:28:15.980 --> 01:28:19.900]  [SPEAKER_25]: So, that's being repeated many places, many different ways.
[01:28:19.920 --> 01:28:23.960]  [SPEAKER_25]: We have the Kevin Poulsen story, which still has not completely worked itself out.
[01:28:25.240 --> 01:28:29.840]  [SPEAKER_25]: And we're going to be here, hopefully, telling you all about them in the weeks and months ahead.
[01:28:30.980 --> 01:28:32.360]  [SPEAKER_25]: But we need your help to do that.
[01:28:32.620 --> 01:28:35.380]  [SPEAKER_25]: Let's, first of all, thank the people that brought us up to where we are now.
[01:28:35.520 --> 01:28:37.080]  [SPEAKER_25]: We want to thank...
[01:28:37.080 --> 01:28:39.280]  [SPEAKER_25]: Hang on, first I have to make sure that they want to be thanked.
[01:28:40.140 --> 01:28:43.440]  [SPEAKER_25]: Sometimes, sometimes they check off a box here that says, don't thank me.
[01:28:43.540 --> 01:28:43.700]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay.
[01:28:44.240 --> 01:28:48.260]  [SPEAKER_25]: I want to thank Tom from East Rockaway for his generous donation.
[01:28:48.340 --> 01:28:49.400]  [SPEAKER_25]: Margaret from Brooklyn.
[01:28:52.500 --> 01:28:54.600]  [SPEAKER_25]: Julio from Maranek, New York.
[01:28:55.180 --> 01:28:56.820]  [SPEAKER_25]: Maranek is one heck of a place.
[01:28:57.100 --> 01:28:58.760]  [SPEAKER_25]: You know, there's this...
[01:28:58.760 --> 01:29:03.200]  [SPEAKER_25]: I don't know if it's from Maranek, but there's this lady that does a TV show up there called Kaleidoscope.
[01:29:03.320 --> 01:29:04.020]  [SPEAKER_25]: Have any of you ever seen it?
[01:29:04.100 --> 01:29:04.960]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's a cable TV show.
[01:29:05.560 --> 01:29:05.960]  [SPEAKER_13]: No.
[01:29:05.960 --> 01:29:06.420]  [SPEAKER_25]: She's incredible.
[01:29:06.640 --> 01:29:07.680]  [SPEAKER_25]: She's absolutely incredible.
[01:29:07.680 --> 01:29:12.620]  [SPEAKER_25]: If anyone out there knows what I'm talking about, you'd do well to tape this show and send me copies.
[01:29:13.580 --> 01:29:14.060]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay.
[01:29:14.060 --> 01:29:18.540]  [SPEAKER_25]: We also want to thank Carl from Brooklyn for his very generous donation.
[01:29:19.580 --> 01:29:22.220]  [SPEAKER_25]: And Tim from New York, New York.
[01:29:22.980 --> 01:29:24.040]  [SPEAKER_25]: Right here in town.
[01:29:25.080 --> 01:29:26.500]  [SPEAKER_25]: This is a neat one.
[01:29:26.640 --> 01:29:28.740]  [SPEAKER_25]: Catherine from Springfield, New Jersey.
[01:29:29.100 --> 01:29:29.960]  [SPEAKER_25]: Springfield, New Jersey.
[01:29:30.080 --> 01:29:34.100]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's always good to hear from that part of our listening range.
[01:29:34.420 --> 01:29:35.600]  [SPEAKER_25]: Thank you for your donation.
[01:29:36.240 --> 01:29:45.420]  [SPEAKER_25]: And Chris from Dover, Dover being the site of the former private sector BBS, 2600's first bulletin board system.
[01:29:45.680 --> 01:29:48.500]  [SPEAKER_25]: And I want to thank Chris from Dover for his donation.
[01:29:50.090 --> 01:29:53.320]  [SPEAKER_25]: And there's a bunch more, I hope, calling in right now.
[01:29:53.440 --> 01:29:55.200]  [SPEAKER_25]: 212-279-3400.
[01:29:55.200 --> 01:29:56.200]  [SPEAKER_25]: We have a special deal.
[01:29:58.620 --> 01:30:00.840]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now, this is kind of an interesting deal, actually.
[01:30:01.220 --> 01:30:05.820]  [SPEAKER_25]: Because it involves a lot of us in various ways.
[01:30:07.320 --> 01:30:08.580]  [SPEAKER_25]: A couple of months ago...
[01:30:08.580 --> 01:30:10.300]  [SPEAKER_25]: Was it a couple of months ago only that this thing came out?
[01:30:11.040 --> 01:30:12.020]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah, it was...
[01:30:12.020 --> 01:30:12.800]  [SPEAKER_25]: Seems like forever.
[01:30:13.160 --> 01:30:14.300]  [SPEAKER_25]: Maybe it was just around the new year.
[01:30:14.420 --> 01:30:15.040]  [SPEAKER_25]: Around the new year.
[01:30:15.640 --> 01:30:17.520]  [SPEAKER_25]: That a certain book came out.
[01:30:17.680 --> 01:30:20.560]  [SPEAKER_25]: A certain book called Masters of Deception.
[01:30:21.460 --> 01:30:22.020]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's right.
[01:30:22.140 --> 01:30:22.860]  [SPEAKER_25]: Masters of Deception.
[01:30:22.860 --> 01:30:24.500]  [SPEAKER_25]: We've got a bunch of copies of this.
[01:30:24.920 --> 01:30:26.560]  [SPEAKER_25]: A bunch of copies lying around.
[01:30:26.820 --> 01:30:28.380]  [SPEAKER_25]: This is a book with fiber optic in it.
[01:30:28.480 --> 01:30:33.880]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now, I should point out that this book was met with mixed reviews in the hacker community.
[01:30:35.520 --> 01:30:46.920]  [SPEAKER_25]: And to attest to that, you could sort of say that Josh Quintner and Michelle Sotala's phone numbers were forwarded to various parts of the country by angry hackers at one point.
[01:30:46.980 --> 01:30:48.700]  [SPEAKER_25]: And in fact, that was even written about in Newsday.
[01:30:50.960 --> 01:30:53.960]  [SPEAKER_25]: And that would indicate that certain people weren't very happy with it.
[01:30:54.300 --> 01:30:55.940]  [SPEAKER_25]: What was your gist of the whole thing?
[01:30:56.160 --> 01:31:03.800]  [SPEAKER_21]: Well, my take on it, at least the stuff that I read about it, the reviews in the papers, most of the reviews that I read were very favorable.
[01:31:04.980 --> 01:31:15.080]  [SPEAKER_21]: As far as what people who, I guess you could say, were on the scene, as far as what they thought about the book, I found that there were, in fact, mixed feelings.
[01:31:15.640 --> 01:31:22.900]  [SPEAKER_21]: Some people thought that the book kind of belittled certain characters.
[01:31:23.860 --> 01:31:29.200]  [SPEAKER_21]: And I think that that tended to annoy certain of those characters or people that those characters knew.
[01:31:30.120 --> 01:31:46.540]  [SPEAKER_21]: And, I mean, personally, in lots of ways, I think that things were oversimplified to an extent, which I guess you would have to allow for, considering that they're trying to condense a lot of people, places, and events within, you know, 200-something pages.
[01:31:47.260 --> 01:31:54.200]  [SPEAKER_21]: So, a lot of details are going to get cut, and usually the first of those details to be considered are technical details.
[01:31:55.320 --> 01:32:16.840]  [SPEAKER_21]: So, in an effort to make the book as readable as possible to the most diversest of crowds who would potentially be buying it, I guess that that was something that needed to be done, whether or not I like that, I mean, I would have liked it if the book could have shown a lot more technical things about how things really are.
[01:32:18.540 --> 01:32:32.060]  [SPEAKER_21]: And, as far as, I think that it made a lot of things come off as being a lot simpler and a lot less complex than they really were in real life while they were happening.
[01:32:32.760 --> 01:32:39.100]  [SPEAKER_21]: I thought that there were a lot more issues at stake than were really delved into.
[01:32:39.360 --> 01:32:42.900]  [SPEAKER_25]: One of the things that bugged me about the book was the fact they used the word gang so much.
[01:32:43.360 --> 01:32:50.540]  [SPEAKER_25]: That doesn't connotate a very good image, and in this case, I don't think it connotated a very accurate image.
[01:32:51.160 --> 01:32:54.700]  [SPEAKER_25]: Because, I mean, you guys weren't a street gang.
[01:32:54.880 --> 01:32:58.700]  [SPEAKER_25]: You were a bunch of people just getting together and doing things much like we're doing tonight.
[01:32:58.900 --> 01:33:02.240]  [SPEAKER_21]: Well, that was a whole publicity thing, especially when we first got indicted.
[01:33:02.480 --> 01:33:07.460]  [SPEAKER_21]: All the headlines were screaming about gang wars in cyberspace and all kinds of silly nonsense like that.
[01:33:07.480 --> 01:33:10.500]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, that's because you had inner-city kids for the first time involved in this kind of thing.
[01:33:10.700 --> 01:33:13.920]  [SPEAKER_25]: So, you know, do you remember they kept saying computer-wilding too?
[01:33:14.160 --> 01:33:14.400]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah.
[01:33:14.560 --> 01:33:17.220]  [SPEAKER_25]: That was another big catchphrase they liked to use.
[01:33:17.300 --> 01:33:17.480]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah.
[01:33:17.860 --> 01:33:26.920]  [SPEAKER_25]: I was pretty disappointed to see the book do that, to sort of go to the lowest common denominator and use words like that to kind of provide a hitch.
[01:33:27.300 --> 01:33:45.340]  [SPEAKER_21]: Well, I think that we spent lots of time, myself and the other people involved, in providing Josh and Michelle, the material itself, the facts about what really happened, and we painstakingly went over the fact that there's really no gang, there's no gang war,
[01:33:45.640 --> 01:33:58.440]  [SPEAKER_21]: there aren't really any... you know, there was basically a disagreement between a couple of people in New York and in Texas, and that was blown all out of proportion, while at the same time focusing around a major federal indictment.
[01:33:59.460 --> 01:34:14.740]  [SPEAKER_21]: But I don't know that I could hold the authors as responsible as possibly the editors or the agent in doing the most that they possibly could to sway things in the wrong direction to hype up the book with the whole gang war connotation.
[01:34:16.440 --> 01:34:19.440]  [SPEAKER_25]: Other than that, though, how was it as far as telling the story?
[01:34:19.520 --> 01:34:20.660]  [SPEAKER_25]: It is an interesting story to read.
[01:34:20.820 --> 01:34:22.480]  [SPEAKER_25]: I won't take that away from it.
[01:34:22.600 --> 01:34:23.960]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's interesting to read.
[01:34:24.240 --> 01:34:25.480]  [SPEAKER_25]: No question about that.
[01:34:25.480 --> 01:34:26.800]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah, it is a quick read.
[01:34:27.060 --> 01:34:31.000]  [SPEAKER_21]: It does... I guess in most ways it reads well.
[01:34:31.420 --> 01:34:34.860]  [SPEAKER_21]: I mean, I'm not going to argue about, you know, if it could have been written better.
[01:34:35.020 --> 01:34:36.140]  [SPEAKER_21]: It's written and it's out.
[01:34:36.540 --> 01:34:38.580]  [SPEAKER_21]: So it is in fact a quick read.
[01:34:38.580 --> 01:34:59.740]  [SPEAKER_21]: I think people will enjoy reading it, at least in providing some insight, which I don't think any books really out there right now can provide any contemporary insight in the least as far as what hackers are thinking and to some extent what they're doing,
[01:34:59.920 --> 01:35:00.840]  [SPEAKER_21]: what their interests are.
[01:35:02.520 --> 01:35:10.520]  [SPEAKER_25]: To quote from the 2600 review of this in our most recent issue, actually, the Spring 95 issue.
[01:35:11.780 --> 01:35:13.560]  [SPEAKER_25]: It seems like it came out so long ago, too.
[01:35:14.720 --> 01:35:22.880]  [SPEAKER_25]: If Masters of Deception has any weakness, it's in trying to simplify a story that could fill volumes to something under 226 pages.
[01:35:23.560 --> 01:35:27.520]  [SPEAKER_25]: To give you some perspective, fiber optics indictment alone could fill volumes.
[01:35:28.440 --> 01:35:37.620]  [SPEAKER_25]: While I certainly respect the magnitude of Sotala's and Quintner's undertaking, I sometimes cringe at the result, a sort of fun-to-read children's story for adults.
[01:35:38.040 --> 01:35:38.820]  [SPEAKER_25]: What do you think?
[01:35:39.640 --> 01:35:41.660]  [SPEAKER_25]: I think that wraps it up pretty good, actually.
[01:35:41.880 --> 01:35:44.480]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's our review of it in the current 2600.
[01:35:45.180 --> 01:35:54.300]  [SPEAKER_25]: A review that was written without the use of the following terms, cyberpunk, cyberspace, digital highway, global network, infobond, infoway, information superhighway, cracker, and on-ramp.
[01:35:56.420 --> 01:35:59.200]  [SPEAKER_25]: A little effort you can avoid using those terms as well.
[01:35:59.820 --> 01:36:01.360]  [SPEAKER_25]: All right, so here's our deal.
[01:36:01.360 --> 01:36:05.480]  [SPEAKER_25]: We're offering that book plus a subscription to 2600 magazine.
[01:36:05.720 --> 01:36:07.040]  [SPEAKER_25]: The two items are not in any way connected.
[01:36:08.320 --> 01:36:09.780]  [SPEAKER_25]: I'll make that clear right now.
[01:36:11.060 --> 01:36:22.580]  [SPEAKER_25]: For a pledge of $100, you'll get a hard copy version of that book and a paperback version of 2600 magazine for a year delivered to wherever it is you tell us to deliver it to.
[01:36:22.660 --> 01:36:25.680]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's for $100, 212-279-3400.
[01:36:25.860 --> 01:36:28.120]  [SPEAKER_25]: Remember, we take Visa and we take MasterCard.
[01:36:28.240 --> 01:36:40.940]  [SPEAKER_25]: And this is a way for you to to find out for yourself what it all means, what the book is all about, what the magazine is all about, to sort of venture into this world and become a part of the whole crazy scene.
[01:36:41.460 --> 01:36:43.420]  [SPEAKER_25]: So we only have a few of those too, though.
[01:36:43.600 --> 01:36:59.100]  [SPEAKER_25]: So please give us a call and and be one of the people that that are a part of here.
[01:36:59.100 --> 01:37:00.740]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, so you're gonna be a little embarrassed here.
[01:37:01.560 --> 01:37:02.000]  [SPEAKER_25]: Fiberoptic.
[01:37:02.220 --> 01:37:07.560]  [SPEAKER_25]: I won't read people's real names, because I'm sure people listening that aren't here right now might not like that.
[01:37:08.280 --> 01:37:09.280]  [SPEAKER_25]: I don't blame them.
[01:37:09.800 --> 01:37:12.340]  [SPEAKER_25]: This is this is how it's it's described in the book.
[01:37:12.440 --> 01:37:14.520]  [SPEAKER_25]: Meet the cool dudes of masters of deception.
[01:37:14.800 --> 01:37:18.460]  [SPEAKER_25]: Cool spelled k-e-w-l dude spelled d-0-0-d-s.
[01:37:19.640 --> 01:37:22.040]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah, 212-279-3400.
[01:37:22.160 --> 01:37:23.220]  [SPEAKER_25]: Please call and pledge for this.
[01:37:23.220 --> 01:37:24.700]  [SPEAKER_25]: Uh, Fiberoptic.
[01:37:24.880 --> 01:37:29.840]  [SPEAKER_25]: A precocious teen from Queens who developed a love for computers at an early age.
[01:37:30.120 --> 01:37:35.420]  [SPEAKER_25]: Fiber grew into an expert hacker, a pioneer on the electronic frontier.
[01:37:36.080 --> 01:37:43.140]  [SPEAKER_25]: Able to best even the most complex security systems and explore classified telephone company computer systems to learn them firsthand.
[01:37:44.120 --> 01:37:52.020]  [SPEAKER_25]: Where his knowledge and prowess got him admitted into the exclusive hacker gang, the Legion of Doom, is hot temper.
[01:37:52.340 --> 01:37:58.840]  [SPEAKER_25]: And New Yorker's arrogance got him kicked out of the same gang, creating a rift between the L.O.D.
[01:37:58.960 --> 01:38:06.460]  [SPEAKER_25]: and Fiber's new pals, the masters of deception, which would eventually explode into war.
[01:38:07.100 --> 01:38:08.960]  [SPEAKER_25]: Would you say that's an accurate assessment?
[01:38:09.240 --> 01:38:13.560]  [SPEAKER_25]: Um, it's an interesting assessment, how accurate it is.
[01:38:13.680 --> 01:38:15.940]  [SPEAKER_25]: Oh, it's like, that's, that's kind of how the book is.
[01:38:16.140 --> 01:38:17.100]  [SPEAKER_25]: It reads well.
[01:38:17.460 --> 01:38:20.420]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's fun to read, but it's not necessarily the way things happen.
[01:38:20.560 --> 01:38:22.440]  [SPEAKER_25]: You know, that's, that's, that's what you got to remember here.
[01:38:22.780 --> 01:38:26.840]  [SPEAKER_25]: I would, I would almost say that it's, it would make a good mystery, make a good novel.
[01:38:27.040 --> 01:38:28.720]  [SPEAKER_21]: As far as a documentary, I don't know.
[01:38:28.880 --> 01:38:36.540]  [SPEAKER_21]: I, the way I saw it best described in certain reviews in the papers was a sort of, uh, cyberspatial West Side Story.
[01:38:38.440 --> 01:38:39.340]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, there you go.
[01:38:39.500 --> 01:38:44.120]  [SPEAKER_25]: With that kind of, uh, retort, it's, uh, it's guaranteed to spark some interest.
[01:38:44.880 --> 01:38:45.240]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay.
[01:38:45.500 --> 01:38:48.980]  [SPEAKER_25]: Uh, again, 212-279-3400, uh, pledge of a hundred dollars.
[01:38:49.080 --> 01:39:00.520]  [SPEAKER_25]: You get, uh, you get that, you get the book, the whole thing, hardcover, and you get the Hacker Quarterly 2600 magazine, where you can, uh, find out the latest in hacker, hacker lore, uh, delivered right to your door, your P.O.
[01:39:00.540 --> 01:39:02.960]  [SPEAKER_25]: box, or to someone else's door, if you so desire.
[01:39:03.760 --> 01:39:11.760]  [SPEAKER_25]: So, uh, you'll be pretty much, uh, as, as into the, the hacker world as you can possibly get, I guess, without actually hacking yourself.
[01:39:12.220 --> 01:39:15.480]  [SPEAKER_25]: Although, uh, when you get on, uh, certain federal lists, I don't know.
[01:39:15.660 --> 01:39:15.880]  [SPEAKER_25]: I don't know.
[01:39:15.980 --> 01:39:17.840]  [SPEAKER_25]: They'll, they'll think you're guilty of something no matter what.
[01:39:18.440 --> 01:39:30.440]  [SPEAKER_25]: Eric Bloodaxe, a middle-class kid from suburban Houston, Eric frontman for the Legion of Doom, was responsible for initiating and blackballing fiber optic from the gang.
[01:39:30.900 --> 01:39:45.460]  [SPEAKER_25]: As the hacker war began to heat up and the federal government was starting to crack down on hackers, Bloodaxe, and the LOD changed their allegiance, offering to help corporations and law enforcement agencies fight the hackers he was once in league with.
[01:39:46.140 --> 01:39:47.180]  [SPEAKER_25]: What do you think of that one?
[01:39:47.540 --> 01:39:52.870]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, uh, I don't know.
[01:39:53.730 --> 01:39:57.190]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, you, you have your, your, your protagonist and your antagonist here.
[01:39:57.290 --> 01:39:59.530]  [SPEAKER_25]: You know, you got people battling each other.
[01:39:59.690 --> 01:40:02.350]  [SPEAKER_25]: You got, you know, all the settings for some sort of a conflict.
[01:40:02.610 --> 01:40:04.610]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah, the whole jets versus sharks thing.
[01:40:04.750 --> 01:40:05.570]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's basically it.
[01:40:05.950 --> 01:40:06.090]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah.
[01:40:06.510 --> 01:40:07.390]  [SPEAKER_25]: Mods and rockers.
[01:40:08.470 --> 01:40:09.730]  [SPEAKER_25]: Uh, all right, enough of that.
[01:40:09.810 --> 01:40:10.130]  [SPEAKER_25]: Enough of that.
[01:40:10.190 --> 01:40:11.250]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's how you got in trouble last time.
[01:40:12.570 --> 01:40:14.590]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, now we, let's go to some more New York people.
[01:40:16.250 --> 01:40:18.010]  [SPEAKER_25]: And if they're listening, hey, how you doing?
[01:40:18.710 --> 01:40:21.690]  [SPEAKER_25]: Corrupt, a class clown from Bedford, Stuyvesant, Brooklyn.
[01:40:22.070 --> 01:40:25.390]  [SPEAKER_25]: Corrupt ran with a street gang until he was picked up for attempted mugging.
[01:40:25.650 --> 01:40:30.710]  [SPEAKER_25]: Turning his life around, Corrupt put his energies toward hacking with his cheap Commodore 64 computer.
[01:40:30.970 --> 01:40:34.510]  [SPEAKER_25]: Once again, Commodore computers, leading to something bigger.
[01:40:35.530 --> 01:40:41.510]  [SPEAKER_25]: All right, uh, putting his energies, uh, toward hacking with his cheap Commodore 64 computer held together with tape.
[01:40:41.870 --> 01:40:52.810]  [SPEAKER_25]: In no time, he became a brilliant hacker, an expert in complex VAX systems that allowed him access to computers owned by Bank of America, TRW, and even the National Security Administration.
[01:40:53.370 --> 01:40:59.110]  [SPEAKER_25]: When he heard an LOD member refer to him as nigger, he drew battle lines for his attack on the Texas gang.
[01:40:59.230 --> 01:41:00.970]  [SPEAKER_25]: And that's not entirely the way it went, was it?
[01:41:01.150 --> 01:41:05.670]  [SPEAKER_21]: Well, it wasn't as much of a turning point as, uh, they make it seem like in the book.
[01:41:05.810 --> 01:41:09.690]  [SPEAKER_21]: I mean, uh, it was certainly something that did in fact happen.
[01:41:10.010 --> 01:41:18.150]  [SPEAKER_21]: Who it was that actually said that to John, or Corrupt, on, on the, uh, the conference bridge in question.
[01:41:18.390 --> 01:41:22.650]  [SPEAKER_21]: I don't, I don't know if, uh, if Corrupt himself knows, he probably does.
[01:41:22.650 --> 01:41:23.410]  [SPEAKER_13]: Mm-hmm.
[01:41:23.870 --> 01:41:27.530]  [SPEAKER_21]: But, um, I don't know necessarily that, that that was such a major turning point.
[01:41:27.750 --> 01:41:30.410]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, according to the book, things were never the same again.
[01:41:30.650 --> 01:41:33.970]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah, it was, it was this pivotal moment, this, this cataclysmic event.
[01:41:34.330 --> 01:41:34.510]  [SPEAKER_25]: Mm-hmm.
[01:41:35.270 --> 01:41:44.470]  [SPEAKER_25]: And, you know, for, for the purposes of, of, you know, a piece of, uh, of fiction that you're trying to, uh, you know, to demonstrate conflict, that would be the turning point.
[01:41:44.670 --> 01:41:47.270]  [SPEAKER_25]: In real life, however, things like that are not the turning points.
[01:41:47.330 --> 01:41:48.950]  [SPEAKER_25]: Turning points are far more subtle than that.
[01:41:49.190 --> 01:41:51.350]  [SPEAKER_25]: I guess it's really not possible to capture it.
[01:41:51.930 --> 01:41:53.550]  [SPEAKER_25]: But, I don't know.
[01:41:53.690 --> 01:42:03.210]  [SPEAKER_25]: I just, I just, I just want to set the record straight because we are pretty much involved with the people that are, are, uh, mentioned here, right, focused upon here.
[01:42:03.530 --> 01:42:08.110]  [SPEAKER_25]: And we do know some of the facts, most of the facts, I would say, involving the case.
[01:42:08.230 --> 01:42:11.270]  [SPEAKER_25]: So, I'm not saying, you know, the book is not something you would want to read.
[01:42:11.350 --> 01:42:12.730]  [SPEAKER_25]: The book is something you would want to read.
[01:42:12.870 --> 01:42:16.110]  [SPEAKER_25]: You should probably look at all books about this kind of thing.
[01:42:16.190 --> 01:42:17.370]  [SPEAKER_25]: You should read The Hacker Crackdown.
[01:42:17.490 --> 01:42:23.510]  [SPEAKER_25]: You should Read Cyberpunk and, you know, Cuckoo's Egg and all that or whatever.
[01:42:25.810 --> 01:42:28.890]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's something that I think we need to keep updated on.
[01:42:29.010 --> 01:42:31.950]  [SPEAKER_25]: And this is a good opportunity for people to be a part of this.
[01:42:32.770 --> 01:42:34.330]  [SPEAKER_25]: Continuing with our list of characters.
[01:42:34.490 --> 01:42:37.150]  [SPEAKER_25]: Scorpion, valedictorian of Thomas A.
[01:42:37.290 --> 01:42:39.950]  [SPEAKER_25]: Edison High School, class of 1988.
[01:42:40.930 --> 01:42:44.610]  [SPEAKER_25]: Scorpion was hacker the moment he... I don't know why they say it that way.
[01:42:44.930 --> 01:42:47.330]  [SPEAKER_25]: Scorpion was hacker the moment he began playing with computers.
[01:42:48.310 --> 01:42:50.370]  [SPEAKER_25]: Maybe they left out a word there.
[01:42:50.950 --> 01:42:52.710]  [SPEAKER_25]: A master of the programming language...
[01:42:53.930 --> 01:42:55.330]  [SPEAKER_25]: What programming language, Fiber?
[01:42:55.730 --> 01:42:57.570]  [SPEAKER_21]: I believe they're about to say basic.
[01:42:57.710 --> 01:42:58.590]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yes, very good.
[01:42:58.690 --> 01:42:59.450]  [SPEAKER_25]: I'm just testing you there.
[01:43:00.370 --> 01:43:04.990]  [SPEAKER_25]: Scorpion spent his early adolescence cracking codes and copying expensive video games.
[01:43:05.190 --> 01:43:07.310]  [SPEAKER_25]: By high school, he was hooked up to a modem.
[01:43:07.750 --> 01:43:11.530]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, again, that's a little misleading.
[01:43:11.810 --> 01:43:13.490]  [SPEAKER_25]: His computer was hooked up to a modem.
[01:43:13.650 --> 01:43:16.950]  [SPEAKER_25]: He was actually able to go outside and do all the normal things.
[01:43:17.930 --> 01:43:22.050]  [SPEAKER_25]: They really make it seem like these people are addicted to these things.
[01:43:22.270 --> 01:43:29.630]  [SPEAKER_25]: By high school, he was hooked up to a modem and was able to best systems far more complex than those protecting the boyish video games.
[01:43:31.230 --> 01:43:36.510]  [SPEAKER_25]: And finally, we have Acid Freak, chronicler of M.O.D.'s picture...
[01:43:37.630 --> 01:43:39.150]  [SPEAKER_25]: I don't know how to say that word.
[01:43:39.290 --> 01:43:40.750]  [SPEAKER_25]: I don't know if that is even a word.
[01:43:41.630 --> 01:43:42.830]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, picturesque adventures.
[01:43:43.370 --> 01:43:45.050]  [SPEAKER_25]: Or is it picaresque adventures?
[01:43:45.510 --> 01:43:45.870]  [SPEAKER_25]: Picturesque.
[01:43:45.990 --> 01:43:46.990]  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, they're two different words.
[01:43:47.250 --> 01:43:48.790]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, what word do you think they're trying to say here?
[01:43:48.870 --> 01:43:49.510]  [SPEAKER_25]: How do they spell it?
[01:43:49.570 --> 01:43:50.850]  [SPEAKER_25]: P-I-C-A-R-E.
[01:43:51.110 --> 01:43:51.470]  [SPEAKER_25]: Picaresque.
[01:43:51.790 --> 01:43:52.150]  [SPEAKER_25]: Picaresque?
[01:43:52.210 --> 01:43:52.350]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah.
[01:43:52.350 --> 01:43:53.890]  [SPEAKER_25]: How does that differ from picturesque?
[01:43:54.110 --> 01:43:55.910]  [SPEAKER_02]: Picturesque means it's visually appealing.
[01:43:56.410 --> 01:43:56.850]  [SPEAKER_02]: Picaresque...
[01:43:57.430 --> 01:44:02.150]  [SPEAKER_02]: The Origins is Renaissance Spanish novels.
[01:44:02.150 --> 01:44:03.390]  [SPEAKER_07]: I don't care about The Origins.
[01:44:03.390 --> 01:44:03.990]  [SPEAKER_02]: What does it mean?
[01:44:04.270 --> 01:44:08.270]  [SPEAKER_03]: Having to do with the countryside, you know, a traveling story usually.
[01:44:08.890 --> 01:44:09.850]  [SPEAKER_03]: Bucolic to some extent.
[01:44:09.870 --> 01:44:10.650]  [SPEAKER_11]: What does that have to do with hacking?
[01:44:10.870 --> 01:44:11.390]  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, okay.
[01:44:11.530 --> 01:44:16.330]  [SPEAKER_03]: The Three Musketeers and Don Quixote are picaresque novels.
[01:44:16.510 --> 01:44:16.810]  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay?
[01:44:17.730 --> 01:44:20.310]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, so we got the Don Quixote element introduced here.
[01:44:20.910 --> 01:44:27.810]  [SPEAKER_25]: All right, well, anyway, with regards to all that, Acids File, the history of M.O.D., made legends of the gang...
[01:44:27.810 --> 01:44:29.030]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah, there's that word again.
[01:44:29.210 --> 01:44:34.610]  [SPEAKER_25]: The gang that he, Fiber, and Scorpion had created as a joke to annoy the elite L.O.D.
[01:44:34.670 --> 01:44:39.230]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now, you see, it's good that they at least say that, that it was created as sort of a joke.
[01:44:39.350 --> 01:44:45.530]  [SPEAKER_21]: It's good to say that, yeah, it was in fact created as sort of a joke, only it was in existence before I met some of these people.
[01:44:45.730 --> 01:44:46.030]  [SPEAKER_13]: Mm-hmm.
[01:44:46.030 --> 01:44:49.950]  [SPEAKER_21]: And it existed then as more or less a joke.
[01:44:50.290 --> 01:45:00.270]  [SPEAKER_21]: But, I mean, it's not as if we sat down around, you know, like Knights of the Round Table and, like, formed this pact that we would seek the grail.
[01:45:00.530 --> 01:45:03.430]  [SPEAKER_25]: There was no... and you didn't dress in armor and all that...
[01:45:03.430 --> 01:45:03.670]  [SPEAKER_25]: No.
[01:45:03.830 --> 01:45:05.590]  [SPEAKER_25]: ...go out and raids and things like that.
[01:45:05.770 --> 01:45:05.850]  [SPEAKER_25]: Hmm.
[01:45:06.890 --> 01:45:08.430]  [SPEAKER_25]: Boy, I'm even learning something here.
[01:45:08.730 --> 01:45:10.490]  [SPEAKER_25]: Along with the rest of the gang...
[01:45:10.490 --> 01:45:11.090]  [SPEAKER_25]: There it is again.
[01:45:12.150 --> 01:45:24.070]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah, along with the rest of the gang, he vaulted electronic fences, obtained access to classified information, made brash proclamations in Harper's Magazine, and clashed with the Legion of Doom.
[01:45:24.190 --> 01:45:28.530]  [SPEAKER_25]: You know, it's not as if he wasn't invited to make brash proclamations in Harper's Magazine.
[01:45:28.610 --> 01:45:28.910]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's true.
[01:45:28.910 --> 01:45:29.970]  [SPEAKER_25]: In fact, they wanted him to do that.
[01:45:31.030 --> 01:45:36.710]  [SPEAKER_25]: So, that's the Meet the Cool Dudes of Masters of Deception blurb that came with the book.
[01:45:37.730 --> 01:45:40.430]  [SPEAKER_25]: And all kinds of other little items here.
[01:45:40.930 --> 01:45:53.950]  [SPEAKER_25]: But, I think it's... you know, even though I have problems with some of the way the book is written, I still think it's a good deal because you're supporting the radio station, you're learning something, you're getting one aspect of the story, and, you know,
[01:45:53.990 --> 01:45:56.970]  [SPEAKER_25]: when we make reference to these things in the future, you'll be able to keep up.
[01:45:57.070 --> 01:45:57.930]  [SPEAKER_25]: You'll know what's going on.
[01:45:57.950 --> 01:45:59.210]  [SPEAKER_25]: And it's an interesting story.
[01:45:59.210 --> 01:45:59.970]  [SPEAKER_25]: It is well-written.
[01:46:00.130 --> 01:46:01.110]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's kind of...
[01:46:01.110 --> 01:46:01.890]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's kind of...
[01:46:01.890 --> 01:46:02.870]  [SPEAKER_25]: I wasn't able to put it down.
[01:46:02.870 --> 01:46:03.830]  [SPEAKER_25]: I think I read it...
[01:46:03.830 --> 01:46:05.670]  [SPEAKER_25]: I was traveling from New York to D.C.
[01:46:05.690 --> 01:46:08.090]  [SPEAKER_25]: on a train, and I think I read the whole thing in one sitting.
[01:46:09.230 --> 01:46:11.170]  [SPEAKER_25]: So, that's the kind of book it is.
[01:46:11.470 --> 01:46:18.650]  [SPEAKER_25]: So, for a pledge of $100, which really is not that much, especially if you do a Visa MasterCard type of thing with it, you'll get that.
[01:46:18.810 --> 01:46:21.390]  [SPEAKER_25]: You'll get the 2600 magazine for a full year.
[01:46:22.510 --> 01:46:24.650]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's four action-packed issues.
[01:46:24.870 --> 01:46:26.030]  [SPEAKER_25]: We just recently expanded.
[01:46:26.170 --> 01:46:28.710]  [SPEAKER_25]: We're now 56 pages, as opposed to 48 pages.
[01:46:29.910 --> 01:46:35.410]  [SPEAKER_25]: And you'll also get the WBAI folio delivered to your door every single month.
[01:46:35.550 --> 01:46:39.410]  [SPEAKER_25]: And, you know, that's really the only way to know what's on this radio station at various times.
[01:46:39.730 --> 01:46:45.750]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's how I found out I was on for two hours and 45 minutes tonight, by looking at the folio, because there's really no other way to know.
[01:46:45.750 --> 01:46:47.630]  [SPEAKER_25]: You know, this radio station is not like other ones.
[01:46:47.750 --> 01:46:50.950]  [SPEAKER_25]: You can't turn it on and, you know, hear classic rock.
[01:46:50.950 --> 01:46:52.490]  [SPEAKER_25]: You can't turn it on and hear grunge.
[01:46:52.590 --> 01:47:02.110]  [SPEAKER_25]: You can't turn it on and hear, you know, the modern rock, alternative sounds, classical music, jazz, country, whatever all the other stations are doing 24 hours a day.
[01:47:02.170 --> 01:47:04.410]  [SPEAKER_25]: You know, they all do the same thing.
[01:47:04.510 --> 01:47:05.970]  [SPEAKER_25]: They're pretty much programmed.
[01:47:06.250 --> 01:47:07.450]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's the jazz station.
[01:47:07.570 --> 01:47:08.550]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's the country station.
[01:47:08.650 --> 01:47:09.590]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's the news station.
[01:47:10.110 --> 01:47:10.950]  [SPEAKER_25]: We're the station.
[01:47:10.950 --> 01:47:12.750]  [SPEAKER_25]: You never know what's going to happen next.
[01:47:12.790 --> 01:47:14.870]  [SPEAKER_25]: And that's kind of the way we like it.
[01:47:14.870 --> 01:47:16.330]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's kind of the way the listeners like it.
[01:47:16.530 --> 01:47:19.530]  [SPEAKER_25]: But you need that program guide in order to know what's going on.
[01:47:20.530 --> 01:47:22.590]  [SPEAKER_25]: So, 212-279-3400.
[01:47:22.790 --> 01:47:24.210]  [SPEAKER_25]: There's no more calls on the line.
[01:47:24.330 --> 01:47:25.570]  [SPEAKER_25]: So I know there are people out there.
[01:47:26.250 --> 01:47:27.930]  [SPEAKER_25]: We're up to 1450.
[01:47:29.330 --> 01:47:30.730]  [SPEAKER_25]: There's probably more coming in.
[01:47:30.770 --> 01:47:31.290]  [SPEAKER_25]: I hope there is.
[01:47:31.890 --> 01:47:33.390]  [SPEAKER_25]: But the phone lines are dead right now.
[01:47:33.450 --> 01:47:34.610]  [SPEAKER_25]: We'd like to see them all light up.
[01:47:34.730 --> 01:47:36.770]  [SPEAKER_25]: 212-279-3400.
[01:47:36.990 --> 01:47:42.470]  [SPEAKER_25]: Call in for the Masters of Deception book and the subscription to the magazine.
[01:47:42.470 --> 01:47:50.170]  [SPEAKER_25]: If you want to spend a little less, you can get a subscription to the magazine and a 2600 t-shirt for a pledge of $75.
[01:47:50.850 --> 01:47:55.350]  [SPEAKER_25]: And again, that 2600 t-shirt is rumored to be in its last printing.
[01:47:55.610 --> 01:47:58.370]  [SPEAKER_25]: So, once they're gone, they're gone.
[01:47:58.530 --> 01:48:03.210]  [SPEAKER_25]: And you can guarantee one for yourself by calling now.
[01:48:03.310 --> 01:48:05.210]  [SPEAKER_25]: 212-279-3400.
[01:48:05.730 --> 01:48:12.150]  [SPEAKER_25]: The shirts have a schematic of a blue box on the front and a whole bunch of newspaper articles on the back.
[01:48:12.150 --> 01:48:15.250]  [SPEAKER_25]: I've gotten into so many discussions with people wearing that shirt.
[01:48:15.450 --> 01:48:17.670]  [SPEAKER_25]: You know, people stop you and they say, Oh, you're a hacker.
[01:48:17.830 --> 01:48:19.330]  [SPEAKER_25]: Do you know people at 2600 Magazine?
[01:48:20.250 --> 01:48:23.470]  [SPEAKER_25]: You know, it can be annoying, but it can also be fun.
[01:48:23.510 --> 01:48:25.410]  [SPEAKER_25]: If it's annoying, you'd simply throw a shirt on over it.
[01:48:25.470 --> 01:48:28.550]  [SPEAKER_25]: But it's a good way to impress friends, too.
[01:48:28.770 --> 01:48:28.950]  [SPEAKER_25]: You know?
[01:48:29.150 --> 01:48:33.170]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's like, boy, I got this because I'm a friend of WBAI.
[01:48:33.310 --> 01:48:35.730]  [SPEAKER_25]: You know, that neat radio station that has Off the Hook on it.
[01:48:36.090 --> 01:48:40.130]  [SPEAKER_25]: And a lot of people have gotten turned on to WBAI through Off the Hook, and that's really a good thing to see.
[01:48:40.330 --> 01:48:48.270]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's a lot of us coming together and sharing knowledge, sharing enthusiasm, sharing information, coming from all different walks of life.
[01:48:48.450 --> 01:48:51.970]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's sort of like going to college, in a way.
[01:48:52.170 --> 01:48:54.050]  [SPEAKER_25]: You know, learning all you possibly can.
[01:48:54.710 --> 01:48:55.870]  [SPEAKER_25]: 212-279-3400.
[01:48:55.970 --> 01:48:57.210]  [SPEAKER_25]: We have two phone calls on the line.
[01:48:57.590 --> 01:49:01.010]  [SPEAKER_25]: We have capacity for seven altogether.
[01:49:02.190 --> 01:49:03.630]  [SPEAKER_25]: 212-279-3400.
[01:49:03.710 --> 01:49:06.390]  [SPEAKER_25]: You know, you really shouldn't be throwing paper airplanes around the studio.
[01:49:07.550 --> 01:49:09.350]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's not a professional way.
[01:49:09.410 --> 01:49:10.630]  [SPEAKER_25]: I mean, they do it on nightly news.
[01:49:10.690 --> 01:49:11.310]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yes, we know.
[01:49:11.430 --> 01:49:12.330]  [SPEAKER_25]: We all saw that once.
[01:49:12.430 --> 01:49:14.330]  [SPEAKER_25]: But not here.
[01:49:14.450 --> 01:49:15.910]  [SPEAKER_25]: We're a little more professional than that.
[01:49:17.830 --> 01:49:19.290]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah, it's been a long night.
[01:49:19.350 --> 01:49:20.570]  [SPEAKER_25]: We have four phone calls.
[01:49:20.890 --> 01:49:22.230]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now, Fiber, you're going to get the next phone call.
[01:49:22.610 --> 01:49:23.130]  [SPEAKER_25]: I am.
[01:49:23.130 --> 01:49:25.010]  [SPEAKER_25]: You're going to convince the next person to call in.
[01:49:25.290 --> 01:49:26.770]  [SPEAKER_25]: Because you're throwing the paper airplane.
[01:49:27.490 --> 01:49:30.670]  [SPEAKER_25]: You're going to now get someone to call in the phone.
[01:49:30.950 --> 01:49:32.610]  [SPEAKER_25]: We're waiting for that fifth line to light up.
[01:49:32.810 --> 01:49:34.110]  [SPEAKER_25]: You have to get this phone call.
[01:49:34.190 --> 01:49:35.130]  [SPEAKER_25]: I have to get this phone call.
[01:49:35.390 --> 01:49:37.730]  [SPEAKER_21]: But you are going to tell me when they call in.
[01:49:38.010 --> 01:49:38.370]  [SPEAKER_25]: Maybe.
[01:49:38.830 --> 01:49:39.670]  [SPEAKER_21]: Oh, come on.
[01:49:39.710 --> 01:49:40.150]  [SPEAKER_21]: Be nice.
[01:49:40.250 --> 01:49:40.830]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, go ahead.
[01:49:41.110 --> 01:49:41.410]  [SPEAKER_21]: Okay.
[01:49:42.610 --> 01:49:43.090]  [SPEAKER_21]: Let's see.
[01:49:43.130 --> 01:49:44.210]  [SPEAKER_21]: I need a pitch, right?
[01:49:44.570 --> 01:49:44.910]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah.
[01:49:45.150 --> 01:49:46.390]  [SPEAKER_25]: I've used up all the good ones.
[01:49:46.770 --> 01:49:47.070]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah.
[01:49:47.590 --> 01:49:49.290]  [SPEAKER_21]: Well, you know, we haven't talked about...
[01:49:49.290 --> 01:49:55.270]  [SPEAKER_25]: For people that don't know, you're someone that has gone through the whole hacker process You started off...
[01:49:55.270 --> 01:49:57.010]  [SPEAKER_25]: You got really, really good.
[01:49:57.130 --> 01:49:58.010]  [SPEAKER_25]: You met a lot of people.
[01:49:58.170 --> 01:49:58.790]  [SPEAKER_25]: You got in trouble.
[01:49:58.950 --> 01:50:00.590]  [SPEAKER_25]: You went to prison and you came back.
[01:50:01.230 --> 01:50:03.590]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now, how did WBAI change any of that?
[01:50:03.790 --> 01:50:07.310]  [SPEAKER_25]: I didn't change what happened to you, but where would you be without WBAI?
[01:50:07.310 --> 01:50:17.950]  [SPEAKER_21]: Well, I mean, we could talk about how I actually called in from prison and we had some radio shows where I was actually live on the air.
[01:50:18.090 --> 01:50:18.750]  [SPEAKER_21]: That was neat.
[01:50:18.990 --> 01:50:19.170]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah.
[01:50:19.570 --> 01:50:20.090]  [SPEAKER_21]: That was...
[01:50:20.090 --> 01:50:22.630]  [SPEAKER_21]: And in fact, that was a great diversion while I was there.
[01:50:22.750 --> 01:50:27.250]  [SPEAKER_25]: In fact, you even put other prisoners on the air and they were able to tell their story to all of New York.
[01:50:27.350 --> 01:50:27.750]  [SPEAKER_21]: That's correct.
[01:50:27.970 --> 01:50:29.050]  [SPEAKER_21]: That was really, really cool.
[01:50:29.990 --> 01:50:31.950]  [SPEAKER_21]: And I'm glad I got away with it.
[01:50:33.110 --> 01:50:35.350]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah, because that's not legal either to do that in prison.
[01:50:35.390 --> 01:50:37.470]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah, technically it would be against the rules.
[01:50:38.590 --> 01:50:41.610]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's the only way you can survive in this society is to do things against the rules.
[01:50:42.130 --> 01:50:43.550]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now, there's different rules.
[01:50:43.770 --> 01:50:53.050]  [SPEAKER_25]: There's, you know, moral conduct and there's stupid rules that, you know, you just have to sort of get away with, like, you know, chewing gum in class and things like that.
[01:50:53.390 --> 01:50:54.350]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's one of the good rules.
[01:50:54.350 --> 01:50:55.150]  [SPEAKER_25]: I believe in that one.
[01:50:57.250 --> 01:50:58.130]  [SPEAKER_25]: But never mind.
[01:50:58.210 --> 01:50:59.190]  [SPEAKER_25]: You still have to get that phone call.
[01:50:59.370 --> 01:51:00.630]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, still haven't gotten the phone call.
[01:51:00.670 --> 01:51:01.770]  [SPEAKER_25]: You lost two, actually.
[01:51:01.950 --> 01:51:02.350]  [SPEAKER_25]: Really?
[01:51:02.570 --> 01:51:02.810]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yes.
[01:51:06.030 --> 01:51:23.730]  [SPEAKER_21]: Well, I mean, really, without our listener's support for WBAI, it would not have been possible, obviously, for me to call in from prison and to have prisoners' voices heard live on the air because I don't think there would be any avenue for that to happen.
[01:51:24.490 --> 01:51:26.210]  [SPEAKER_25]: WABC does not have this kind of program.
[01:51:26.350 --> 01:51:27.470]  [SPEAKER_21]: I don't think that they would.
[01:51:27.710 --> 01:51:29.290]  [SPEAKER_25]: WCBS does not have time for it.
[01:51:29.350 --> 01:51:31.710]  [SPEAKER_25]: They have to give their traffic and weather together every ten minutes.
[01:51:31.710 --> 01:51:33.810]  [SPEAKER_21]: And I don't think they would take calls from prisoners, either.
[01:51:34.090 --> 01:51:34.750]  [SPEAKER_25]: Probably not.
[01:51:34.870 --> 01:51:42.450]  [SPEAKER_25]: You see, most other stations represent the norms of society where prisoners are looked at as bad, evil.
[01:51:42.570 --> 01:51:43.830]  [SPEAKER_25]: You want to sweep them under the rug.
[01:51:43.830 --> 01:51:44.810]  [SPEAKER_25]: You don't want to know about them.
[01:51:44.810 --> 01:51:51.250]  [SPEAKER_25]: Here at WBAI, we're willing to listen, to let people speak, to hear the other side of the story.
[01:51:51.850 --> 01:51:57.990]  [SPEAKER_25]: And while, you know, you may not always agree with what you hear, at least you have the opportunity to hear the other side of the story.
[01:51:58.190 --> 01:52:00.670]  [SPEAKER_25]: And that's something that I think is extremely important.
[01:52:00.990 --> 01:52:11.330]  [SPEAKER_25]: And in our increasingly simplistic society, we have to always be open to potential questions, you know, questions that people don't want us to ask.
[01:52:12.330 --> 01:52:12.970]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's important.
[01:52:14.030 --> 01:52:14.550]  [SPEAKER_25]: Look at this.
[01:52:14.590 --> 01:52:15.190]  [SPEAKER_25]: I'm doing it again.
[01:52:15.330 --> 01:52:16.050]  [SPEAKER_25]: I'm the one talking.
[01:52:16.170 --> 01:52:16.710]  [SPEAKER_25]: You should be talking.
[01:52:17.090 --> 01:52:17.990]  [SPEAKER_25]: What's going on here?
[01:52:19.510 --> 01:52:20.030]  [SPEAKER_25]: Go ahead.
[01:52:20.150 --> 01:52:21.170]  [SPEAKER_25]: You'll have to get this call.
[01:52:21.270 --> 01:52:21.970]  [SPEAKER_25]: It still doesn't come in.
[01:52:22.090 --> 01:52:22.410]  [SPEAKER_21]: Oh, come on.
[01:52:22.490 --> 01:52:23.210]  [SPEAKER_21]: You're lying to me.
[01:52:23.250 --> 01:52:24.310]  [SPEAKER_21]: I just saw the number go up.
[01:52:24.390 --> 01:52:26.870]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, the number doesn't go up until ten minutes after the call comes in.
[01:52:27.110 --> 01:52:27.430]  [SPEAKER_25]: Oh, I see.
[01:52:27.430 --> 01:52:27.710]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah.
[01:52:29.090 --> 01:52:31.490]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now, I want this call coming in.
[01:52:31.570 --> 01:52:32.830]  [SPEAKER_25]: You have to get this call.
[01:52:33.050 --> 01:52:33.310]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay.
[01:52:33.310 --> 01:52:34.350]  [SPEAKER_25]: You'll feel good after you do it.
[01:52:34.390 --> 01:52:36.510]  [SPEAKER_25]: Just like the person out there will feel good after they...
[01:52:36.990 --> 01:52:37.790]  [SPEAKER_25]: You say that.
[01:52:37.890 --> 01:52:38.410]  [SPEAKER_25]: I'm not going to say that.
[01:52:38.410 --> 01:52:38.630]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay.
[01:52:39.090 --> 01:52:44.630]  [SPEAKER_21]: Just like the person will feel good out there right after they pledge and they contribute to such a worthy cause.
[01:52:45.050 --> 01:52:45.270]  [SPEAKER_25]: Mm-hmm.
[01:52:46.150 --> 01:52:47.150]  [SPEAKER_25]: Make us all stronger.
[01:52:47.370 --> 01:52:48.550]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yes, make us all stronger.
[01:52:48.550 --> 01:52:57.370]  [SPEAKER_21]: And I'm sure they'll be feeling good vibes, provided that they continue to listen to us every Wednesday night from 10 to 11.
[01:52:59.010 --> 01:53:01.850]  [SPEAKER_21]: And possibly in the future they can come and join us at At Cafe.
[01:53:03.350 --> 01:53:04.690]  [SPEAKER_21]: And after the show, that is.
[01:53:04.830 --> 01:53:06.930]  [SPEAKER_25]: The telephone rang, by the way, but they hung up.
[01:53:07.130 --> 01:53:09.690]  [SPEAKER_21]: Oh, I guess I've got to put more oomph into it.
[01:53:09.710 --> 01:53:09.890]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah.
[01:53:10.230 --> 01:53:12.910]  [SPEAKER_25]: You got people to call, but you didn't get them to stay on the line.
[01:53:13.050 --> 01:53:13.310]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay.
[01:53:13.470 --> 01:53:14.270]  [SPEAKER_25]: I'm getting better.
[01:53:14.410 --> 01:53:15.630]  [SPEAKER_25]: Give the old phone number out.
[01:53:15.770 --> 01:53:16.650]  [SPEAKER_21]: Oh, the old phone number.
[01:53:16.730 --> 01:53:16.890]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yes.
[01:53:17.030 --> 01:53:18.370]  [SPEAKER_21]: It's 279-3400.
[01:53:18.510 --> 01:53:19.270]  [SPEAKER_21]: Area code 212.
[01:53:19.490 --> 01:53:20.290]  [SPEAKER_21]: Area code 212.
[01:53:20.410 --> 01:53:22.050]  [SPEAKER_25]: Which is the most elite area code in the country.
[01:53:22.150 --> 01:53:23.270]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's the best one to have.
[01:53:23.390 --> 01:53:23.690]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's right.
[01:53:25.590 --> 01:53:27.650]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, there's no phone calls on the board right now.
[01:53:28.790 --> 01:53:29.910]  [SPEAKER_25]: We got rid of them all.
[01:53:30.170 --> 01:53:31.790]  [SPEAKER_13]: Everybody else had a 212.
[01:53:32.450 --> 01:53:32.750]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay.
[01:53:32.870 --> 01:53:33.850]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now, all right.
[01:53:33.890 --> 01:53:37.550]  [SPEAKER_25]: We have two lines ringing, but they have to stay on the line.
[01:53:37.670 --> 01:53:38.710]  [SPEAKER_25]: And they have to pledge.
[01:53:38.890 --> 01:53:40.050]  [SPEAKER_25]: Please, people, don't hang up.
[01:53:40.150 --> 01:53:40.310]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah.
[01:53:40.390 --> 01:53:40.950]  [SPEAKER_25]: Don't hang up.
[01:53:41.070 --> 01:53:41.150]  [SPEAKER_25]: All right.
[01:53:41.150 --> 01:53:42.050]  [SPEAKER_25]: One of them already hung up.
[01:53:42.510 --> 01:53:44.290]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now the second one is online.
[01:53:44.670 --> 01:53:45.830]  [SPEAKER_25]: The first one is ringing again.
[01:53:45.910 --> 01:53:46.890]  [SPEAKER_25]: The second one is hung up.
[01:53:47.270 --> 01:53:48.150]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now they're both ringing.
[01:53:48.430 --> 01:53:49.850]  [SPEAKER_25]: This could go on for a very long time.
[01:53:49.850 --> 01:53:54.770]  [SPEAKER_25]: People, we need real people out there, not just to call us, but to call us and pledge.
[01:53:54.990 --> 01:53:56.370]  [SPEAKER_25]: Because every little bit...
[01:53:56.370 --> 01:53:58.150]  [SPEAKER_25]: Remember we started at 9 o'clock.
[01:53:58.150 --> 01:53:58.750]  [SPEAKER_25]: We were at zero.
[01:53:58.870 --> 01:53:59.850]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now we're at 1555.
[01:54:00.030 --> 01:54:01.010]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's a lot of money.
[01:54:01.850 --> 01:54:04.810]  [SPEAKER_25]: And there's no one person out there that pledged 1555.
[01:54:05.230 --> 01:54:07.590]  [SPEAKER_25]: A lot of people pledged various amounts.
[01:54:07.710 --> 01:54:08.970]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now we're giving suggested amounts.
[01:54:09.190 --> 01:54:10.310]  [SPEAKER_25]: 75, 100.
[01:54:10.630 --> 01:54:11.810]  [SPEAKER_25]: You don't have to pledge that.
[01:54:11.830 --> 01:54:17.370]  [SPEAKER_25]: If you can't afford that, if you can only afford 25 or 50, by all means, pledge what you can afford.
[01:54:18.250 --> 01:54:21.390]  [SPEAKER_25]: And, you know, you always get the WBAI folio.
[01:54:21.590 --> 01:54:26.430]  [SPEAKER_25]: There are all kinds of other premiums we have that are not related to the show that you can ask about.
[01:54:26.570 --> 01:54:31.390]  [SPEAKER_25]: There's volunteers down there that are more than happy to answer your questions, as far as that goes.
[01:54:31.910 --> 01:54:33.370]  [SPEAKER_25]: And they'll work with you.
[01:54:33.430 --> 01:54:34.670]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's not a competitive situation.
[01:54:34.670 --> 01:54:35.810]  [SPEAKER_25]: They're very friendly people.
[01:54:35.950 --> 01:54:37.890]  [SPEAKER_25]: They're listeners to WBAI, just like you.
[01:54:48.430 --> 01:54:49.950]  [SPEAKER_25]: And we're all in this together.
[01:54:50.090 --> 01:54:51.550]  [SPEAKER_25]: These are troubled times.
[01:54:51.590 --> 01:54:54.250]  [SPEAKER_25]: We're not just saying that, you know, just to say it.
[01:54:54.250 --> 01:54:56.330]  [SPEAKER_25]: I mean, you know, watch TV.
[01:54:56.490 --> 01:54:57.150]  [SPEAKER_25]: Look at C-SPAN.
[01:54:57.210 --> 01:54:58.230]  [SPEAKER_25]: Look at what people are saying.
[01:54:58.750 --> 01:55:04.430]  [SPEAKER_25]: We're entering into a period where there's increasing regulation of what we say and what we do.
[01:55:05.090 --> 01:55:10.290]  [SPEAKER_25]: And, you know, things are not as easy as they were a few years ago.
[01:55:11.250 --> 01:55:16.990]  [SPEAKER_25]: Without getting into partisan politics, we have a Republican-dominated Congress for the first time in decades.
[01:55:17.630 --> 01:55:20.610]  [SPEAKER_25]: We have a Republican governor, a Republican mayor.
[01:55:21.030 --> 01:55:24.550]  [SPEAKER_25]: It all kind of adds up into too much power in one side.
[01:55:24.610 --> 01:55:29.290]  [SPEAKER_25]: And, you know, we have a president, which I don't really consider to be democratic in many ways.
[01:55:29.530 --> 01:55:34.010]  [SPEAKER_25]: And I can only wonder what's going to happen in a couple of years when the election comes up.
[01:55:34.110 --> 01:55:36.250]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's possible everybody will be Republican by then.
[01:55:36.430 --> 01:55:42.970]  [SPEAKER_25]: When that happens, or maybe before that happens, you may see some real turning of the tide.
[01:55:42.970 --> 01:55:45.950]  [SPEAKER_25]: You may see some more religious right power.
[01:55:46.110 --> 01:55:47.730]  [SPEAKER_25]: You may see some more religious right in radio.
[01:55:48.270 --> 01:55:53.090]  [SPEAKER_25]: You know, it's not really a big deal to me to see all these religious radio stations.
[01:55:53.210 --> 01:55:58.750]  [SPEAKER_25]: It bothers me, though, when they put them in non-commercial areas of the radio band, for instance, below 92.
[01:55:59.690 --> 01:56:02.130]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's an area reserved just for non-commercial stations.
[01:56:02.230 --> 01:56:04.810]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now, a non-commercial station can be anywhere in the dial, just like we are.
[01:56:04.870 --> 01:56:07.690]  [SPEAKER_25]: We're at 99.5, and it's a tremendous stroke of good luck that we are.
[01:56:09.270 --> 01:56:19.130]  [SPEAKER_25]: But when you stick a religious station in a non-commercial area, it takes away from a station that could be there, say, from a college, or from just a community group of people that want to put out radio.
[01:56:19.670 --> 01:56:23.290]  [SPEAKER_25]: We don't see enough good radio stations out there.
[01:56:23.670 --> 01:56:29.270]  [SPEAKER_25]: I'll give a couple of examples, just to show that we're not trying to hog the market here.
[01:56:29.490 --> 01:56:33.770]  [SPEAKER_25]: Stations like WFMU, a college that no longer exists.
[01:56:33.910 --> 01:56:36.570]  [SPEAKER_25]: Uppsala College went out of business, but the radio station's still there.
[01:56:36.570 --> 01:56:37.870]  [SPEAKER_25]: I think that's kind of neat.
[01:56:38.570 --> 01:56:40.050]  [SPEAKER_25]: WPKN in Bridgeport, same thing.
[01:56:40.130 --> 01:56:41.750]  [SPEAKER_25]: The college was bought by the Moonies.
[01:56:42.050 --> 01:56:44.510]  [SPEAKER_25]: The Moonies came in, and they took over the college.
[01:56:44.630 --> 01:56:52.990]  [SPEAKER_25]: But the radio station, because of listener support, was able to remain independent of all that.
[01:56:53.090 --> 01:56:54.690]  [SPEAKER_25]: And now they're a community-based station.
[01:56:55.270 --> 01:56:57.330]  [SPEAKER_25]: WUSB, Stony Brook, New York, out on the island.
[01:56:58.030 --> 01:57:00.670]  [SPEAKER_25]: They're another college-slash-community station recently.
[01:57:01.310 --> 01:57:06.110]  [SPEAKER_25]: Got the approval to double their transmitter strength, so they'll be reaching more people.
[01:57:06.110 --> 01:57:08.390]  [SPEAKER_25]: The only way they were able to do that was through listener support.
[01:57:08.790 --> 01:57:10.910]  [SPEAKER_25]: So, yeah, there are a lot of good stations out there.
[01:57:11.170 --> 01:57:12.870]  [SPEAKER_25]: By a lot, I mean a handful.
[01:57:13.050 --> 01:57:15.870]  [SPEAKER_25]: Because in most parts of the country, there isn't even one.
[01:57:16.330 --> 01:57:20.570]  [SPEAKER_25]: WBAI is an incredible resource that does not exist in other parts of the country.
[01:57:20.890 --> 01:57:23.410]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's why it's up to you to keep it here, to keep it strong.
[01:57:23.970 --> 01:57:28.750]  [SPEAKER_25]: Because people like Newt Gingrich are not going to lift a finger to help us.
[01:57:29.350 --> 01:57:38.050]  [SPEAKER_25]: In fact, they're going to lift many fingers to hurt us and to cut off funding, our federal funding, to make sure that various other bad things happen to us.
[01:57:38.090 --> 01:57:40.210]  [SPEAKER_25]: I think the strength is there, though, to keep us going.
[01:57:41.470 --> 01:57:44.330]  [SPEAKER_25]: And you can support us however you want.
[01:57:44.330 --> 01:57:47.530]  [SPEAKER_25]: If you want to just call up and make a donation, that's fine.
[01:57:47.530 --> 01:57:52.510]  [SPEAKER_25]: If you want to call and get the MLD book and the subscription to the magazine for $100, that's fine.
[01:57:52.690 --> 01:57:57.090]  [SPEAKER_25]: If you want to call, get a subscription to the magazine and a t-shirt for $75, that's great.
[01:57:57.810 --> 01:57:59.150]  [SPEAKER_25]: There's all kinds of things you can do.
[01:57:59.210 --> 01:58:02.790]  [SPEAKER_25]: If you want to come down and volunteer and answer some phones, that's incredible, too.
[01:58:02.910 --> 01:58:04.070]  [SPEAKER_25]: We need all the help we can get.
[01:58:04.230 --> 01:58:05.950]  [SPEAKER_25]: 212-279-3400.
[01:58:06.070 --> 01:58:14.950]  [SPEAKER_25]: We've gotten this far, not just today, not just this pledge drive, not just this year, since the early 1960s when this radio station was donated to us.
[01:58:15.670 --> 01:58:19.250]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's right, this radio station was probably the biggest donation we've ever had.
[01:58:21.190 --> 01:58:24.230]  [SPEAKER_25]: And it's all come about because people wanted an alternative.
[01:58:24.490 --> 01:58:25.930]  [SPEAKER_25]: So please, be a part of the process.
[01:58:26.070 --> 01:58:28.290]  [SPEAKER_25]: 212-279-3400.
[01:58:28.590 --> 01:58:30.230]  [SPEAKER_25]: 212-279-3400.
[01:58:30.390 --> 01:58:38.690]  [SPEAKER_25]: Again, $100, you get the MLD book, Masters of Deception, which just came out this year, and the subscription to the Hacker Quarterly 2600 magazine.
[01:58:39.770 --> 01:58:49.110]  [SPEAKER_25]: And for $75, you get that same subscription and a soon-to-be discontinued 2600 t-shirt for a $75 pledge.
[01:58:49.250 --> 01:58:51.130]  [SPEAKER_25]: 212-279-3400.
[01:58:51.490 --> 01:58:57.570]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now, we have an interesting article that came out in yesterday's Daily News.
[01:58:57.650 --> 01:58:58.090]  [SPEAKER_25]: You see this?
[01:58:58.370 --> 01:58:59.690]  [SPEAKER_25]: Revenge of the Nerds.
[01:58:59.790 --> 01:59:00.830]  [SPEAKER_25]: Front-page story.
[01:59:01.090 --> 01:59:02.230]  [SPEAKER_25]: You can't believe this.
[01:59:02.610 --> 01:59:05.450]  [SPEAKER_25]: Top high school kids and computer hacking scandal.
[01:59:05.710 --> 01:59:07.350]  [SPEAKER_25]: And you know where it was coming from?
[01:59:08.170 --> 01:59:08.870]  [SPEAKER_25]: Stuyvesant High School.
[01:59:09.090 --> 01:59:09.810]  [SPEAKER_25]: Stuyvesant High School.
[01:59:09.890 --> 01:59:11.350]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's where all the troublemakers come from.
[01:59:11.530 --> 01:59:12.290]  [SPEAKER_25]: Stuyvesant High School.
[01:59:13.010 --> 01:59:15.490]  [SPEAKER_25]: A lot of people come to our meetings from Stuyvesant High School, you know.
[01:59:15.890 --> 01:59:18.930]  [SPEAKER_25]: A lot of people on our magazine are from Stuyvesant High School.
[01:59:19.650 --> 01:59:21.170]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's something to think about.
[01:59:21.770 --> 01:59:22.970]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now, I had no idea about this.
[01:59:22.990 --> 01:59:24.770]  [SPEAKER_25]: I just read about this yesterday in the Daily News.
[01:59:24.870 --> 01:59:28.110]  [SPEAKER_25]: And I would not have picked up the Daily News if someone hadn't called me and told me to do that.
[01:59:29.070 --> 01:59:36.790]  [SPEAKER_25]: Students at Manhattan's prestigious Stuyvesant High School use the school's computers to break into the confidential records of three prominent colleges.
[01:59:37.350 --> 01:59:45.970]  [SPEAKER_25]: Then, the unidentified hackers cracked the security code of a private company working with the school to protect computers against such breaches.
[01:59:46.250 --> 02:00:00.150]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now, red-faced officials of one of the city's most heralded public schools, whose students routinely win Westinghouse Science Prizes and other national honors, have launched an investigation into the hijacking on the information superhighway.
[02:00:00.250 --> 02:00:01.630]  [SPEAKER_25]: I love this language.
[02:00:03.510 --> 02:00:03.950]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay.
[02:00:04.470 --> 02:00:10.590]  [SPEAKER_25]: An executive at the private security firm Ingress Communications in Manhattan said the students committed a federal offense.
[02:00:10.750 --> 02:00:16.410]  [SPEAKER_25]: You know, they had to call this guy at a private security firm just to get him to say these people committed a federal offense.
[02:00:16.450 --> 02:00:17.710]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's how the media works, you know.
[02:00:18.290 --> 02:00:19.810]  [SPEAKER_25]: We can't say it ourselves.
[02:00:19.810 --> 02:00:20.970]  [SPEAKER_25]: We can't say it's a federal offense.
[02:00:21.050 --> 02:00:24.170]  [SPEAKER_25]: We have to get some guy with an, you know, important-sounding name to do that.
[02:00:25.230 --> 02:00:28.550]  [SPEAKER_25]: Stuyvesant Principal, Jinx Perulo.
[02:00:29.170 --> 02:00:29.950]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's some name.
[02:00:29.950 --> 02:00:31.390]  [SPEAKER_25]: The name is actually Jinx.
[02:00:31.630 --> 02:00:31.990]  [SPEAKER_25]: Wow.
[02:00:32.330 --> 02:00:33.410]  [SPEAKER_25]: I respect someone.
[02:00:33.490 --> 02:00:33.890]  [SPEAKER_25]: J-I-N-X.
[02:00:33.970 --> 02:00:35.730]  [SPEAKER_25]: I respect someone with the name of Jinx.
[02:00:36.930 --> 02:00:39.070]  [SPEAKER_25]: Stuyvesant Principal, Jinx Perulo.
[02:00:39.530 --> 02:00:47.290]  [SPEAKER_25]: No doubt will be the subject of much ribbing tomorrow night, or tomorrow day, when they bring tapes of this radio program in, where we're making fun of the fact that the principal's name is Jinx.
[02:00:50.490 --> 02:00:50.850]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay.
[02:00:51.810 --> 02:00:52.970]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, kids have to take it.
[02:00:53.050 --> 02:00:54.110]  [SPEAKER_25]: Why can't principals, you know?
[02:00:54.490 --> 02:00:56.850]  [SPEAKER_25]: Imagine a kid going to Stuyvesant High School with the name Jinx.
[02:00:57.490 --> 02:00:58.650]  [SPEAKER_25]: Actually, there probably are a few.
[02:00:58.650 --> 02:01:09.350]  [SPEAKER_25]: But anyway, Jinx told the news yesterday that the students apparently pulled off the Internet heists for cyberspace kicks.
[02:01:09.350 --> 02:01:09.430]  [SPEAKER_25]: Jinx.
[02:01:10.250 --> 02:01:10.570]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yes.
[02:01:12.210 --> 02:01:13.230]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's a tough sentence to read.
[02:01:13.330 --> 02:01:16.410]  [SPEAKER_25]: In the seven break-ins that occurred last week, she said...
[02:01:16.410 --> 02:01:17.350]  [SPEAKER_25]: Jinx is a female name.
[02:01:17.470 --> 02:01:17.830]  [SPEAKER_25]: I didn't know that.
[02:01:17.850 --> 02:01:17.950]  [SPEAKER_25]: Really?
[02:01:18.110 --> 02:01:18.250]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah.
[02:01:18.570 --> 02:01:18.790]  [SPEAKER_13]: Wow.
[02:01:18.790 --> 02:01:23.110]  [SPEAKER_25]: They did not change any of the records at Columbia, Princeton, or Bucknell.
[02:01:23.610 --> 02:01:24.570]  [SPEAKER_25]: Princeton is in New Jersey.
[02:01:24.670 --> 02:01:25.530]  [SPEAKER_25]: Bucknell is in Pennsylvania.
[02:01:26.330 --> 02:01:28.730]  [SPEAKER_25]: They did it for the sheer thrill.
[02:01:30.190 --> 02:01:31.270]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's what the principal said.
[02:01:31.350 --> 02:01:32.250]  [SPEAKER_25]: They did it for the sheer thrill.
[02:01:32.310 --> 02:01:35.570]  [SPEAKER_25]: And then the vice principal, Eugene Bloufarb...
[02:01:35.570 --> 02:01:36.330]  [SPEAKER_25]: Blou...
[02:01:36.990 --> 02:01:37.430]  [SPEAKER_25]: Blou...
[02:01:37.430 --> 02:01:39.050]  [SPEAKER_25]: How do you say that one?
[02:01:40.070 --> 02:01:40.510]  [SPEAKER_25]: Bloufarb.
[02:01:41.850 --> 02:01:42.290]  [SPEAKER_13]: Bloufarb.
[02:01:42.510 --> 02:01:43.810]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now, imagine if they got married.
[02:01:44.270 --> 02:01:45.510]  [SPEAKER_25]: We had Jinx Bloufarb.
[02:01:45.590 --> 02:01:46.290]  [SPEAKER_25]: Jinx Bloufarb.
[02:01:49.210 --> 02:01:49.950]  [SPEAKER_25]: Oh, boy.
[02:01:50.470 --> 02:01:51.730]  [SPEAKER_25]: I wish I went to Stuyvesant.
[02:01:51.970 --> 02:01:52.170]  [SPEAKER_25]: Anyway.
[02:01:53.110 --> 02:01:53.550]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay.
[02:01:53.730 --> 02:01:55.030]  [SPEAKER_25]: These are actually cool people, though.
[02:01:55.150 --> 02:01:56.290]  [SPEAKER_25]: I mean, we're not making fun...
[02:01:56.290 --> 02:01:57.230]  [SPEAKER_25]: We're just making fun of their names.
[02:01:57.330 --> 02:01:58.310]  [SPEAKER_25]: But what they're saying is...
[02:01:58.310 --> 02:01:58.930]  [SPEAKER_25]: Listen to what they say.
[02:01:58.990 --> 02:02:02.250]  [SPEAKER_25]: These kids are not like gangsters or crooks, advice principal Eugene Bloufarb.
[02:02:02.650 --> 02:02:05.390]  [SPEAKER_25]: These are like the kids in the movie War Games.
[02:02:05.570 --> 02:02:06.590]  [SPEAKER_25]: They are brilliant.
[02:02:07.390 --> 02:02:13.950]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now, Fiber, correct me if I'm wrong, but the things that you did were pretty much almost exactly like this.
[02:02:13.950 --> 02:02:23.090]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yet, I don't recall a large number of people in the media saying that you were brilliant, that you did it for the sheer thrill, that you were like the kids in War Games.
[02:02:23.350 --> 02:02:36.930]  [SPEAKER_21]: Well, incidentally, when I had gotten access to the UAPC computer that houses, among other things, high school grades and so on and so forth, that's when I was a freshman in high school.
[02:02:37.830 --> 02:02:42.890]  [SPEAKER_21]: I wasn't exactly heralded as being brilliant and how it was all a big challenge.
[02:02:43.070 --> 02:02:52.070]  [SPEAKER_21]: I was actually held in Dean's office the entire day, not allowed to eat lunch, had my parents notified, and was subsequently suspended from school for a week.
[02:02:52.870 --> 02:02:54.230]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, that's quite different.
[02:02:54.430 --> 02:02:55.250]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah, it was a bit different.
[02:02:55.490 --> 02:02:57.290]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now, maybe if you got it to Stuyvesant, they would have treated you with a little respect.
[02:02:57.290 --> 02:02:58.410]  [SPEAKER_25]: It would have been a whole different thing.
[02:02:59.550 --> 02:03:02.990]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, we have some more people to thank, but we're going to get back to the story in just a moment.
[02:03:02.990 --> 02:03:08.070]  [SPEAKER_25]: We want to thank Bob from Waterbury, Connecticut.
[02:03:09.490 --> 02:03:11.290]  [SPEAKER_25]: Home of WTXX, Channel 20.
[02:03:11.370 --> 02:03:11.910]  [SPEAKER_25]: I know these things.
[02:03:13.190 --> 02:03:14.370]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, that's far away.
[02:03:14.570 --> 02:03:15.590]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's far away.
[02:03:15.750 --> 02:03:18.150]  [SPEAKER_25]: I'm very happy to know that we're getting all the way out there.
[02:03:18.570 --> 02:03:19.350]  [SPEAKER_25]: Hello to Connecticut.
[02:03:19.730 --> 02:03:23.650]  [SPEAKER_25]: And then we also want to thank Jonathan from Boundbrook, New Jersey.
[02:03:24.470 --> 02:03:26.070]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, thanks for your donation.
[02:03:26.570 --> 02:03:28.850]  [SPEAKER_25]: Eric from Stamford, Connecticut.
[02:03:29.870 --> 02:03:31.190]  [SPEAKER_25]: Eric from Stamford, Connecticut.
[02:03:31.770 --> 02:03:33.110]  [SPEAKER_25]: Thank you for your pledge.
[02:03:33.410 --> 02:03:35.350]  [SPEAKER_25]: And this person does not want to be thanked.
[02:03:36.030 --> 02:03:39.230]  [SPEAKER_25]: I don't know why they gave me their name, but thank you anyway.
[02:03:40.010 --> 02:03:41.850]  [SPEAKER_25]: I thank you, even though you don't want to be thanked.
[02:03:42.010 --> 02:03:42.250]  [SPEAKER_25]: So there.
[02:03:42.570 --> 02:03:43.610]  [SPEAKER_25]: The last word there.
[02:03:45.130 --> 02:03:47.730]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, so getting back to this story.
[02:03:49.670 --> 02:03:56.910]  [SPEAKER_25]: Ingress's Vice President of Technology, Richard Chung, said the Stuyvesant students have the means of accessing accounts at those colleges.
[02:03:57.090 --> 02:03:58.630]  [SPEAKER_25]: They had user accounts and passwords.
[02:03:58.630 --> 02:04:07.470]  [SPEAKER_25]: When asked if he thought the students might have wanted to get access to student transcripts, he said a college would have to be crazy to keep a transcript on computer.
[02:04:08.430 --> 02:04:10.610]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, now, these people have enlightened attitudes.
[02:04:10.930 --> 02:04:15.330]  [SPEAKER_25]: You know, they realize that, yeah, you know, this kind of thing would be stupid if they did it.
[02:04:15.470 --> 02:04:19.550]  [SPEAKER_25]: And if someone is able to get access to it, well, you know, why do you have it there in the first place?
[02:04:19.590 --> 02:04:21.310]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's kind of a temptation, don't you think?
[02:04:21.910 --> 02:04:24.530]  [SPEAKER_25]: He didn't say all that, but I'm reading into what he said.
[02:04:25.210 --> 02:04:29.550]  [SPEAKER_25]: Chung said that only the colleges would know if the students had changed or retrieved information.
[02:04:29.910 --> 02:04:34.510]  [SPEAKER_25]: Columbia spokesman Fred Newbell said, there were no consequences for our computer system.
[02:04:34.610 --> 02:04:37.690]  [SPEAKER_25]: One student ID was compromised, and the university has turned it off.
[02:04:38.490 --> 02:04:41.750]  [SPEAKER_25]: Stuyvesant students were not surprised by their classmates' wizardry.
[02:04:41.910 --> 02:04:49.950]  [SPEAKER_25]: They boasted openly that they can pay their classmates to produce fake credit cards, change their grades, and forge bus passes and school identification cards.
[02:04:50.250 --> 02:04:55.490]  [SPEAKER_25]: If you know the right people, it's $100 to change a grade, $5 to get a fake bus pass from the laser printer upstairs.
[02:04:55.490 --> 02:04:57.870]  [SPEAKER_25]: A lot of people pay to get their grades changed.
[02:04:58.370 --> 02:05:03.370]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's what happens when you throw 3,000 of the world's smartest students into one building, churned in another student.
[02:05:03.650 --> 02:05:05.610]  [SPEAKER_25]: I don't know about this changing grades business.
[02:05:05.810 --> 02:05:07.530]  [SPEAKER_21]: They sound like a bunch of arrogant brats.
[02:05:07.870 --> 02:05:11.990]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah, because for me, that's stepping over the line when you're actually selling services.
[02:05:12.750 --> 02:05:20.190]  [SPEAKER_25]: You know, it's gotten past the point of figuring things out and challenging the system and bypassing security.
[02:05:20.190 --> 02:05:27.450]  [SPEAKER_25]: When you're running a business and selling things that are obviously fraudulent, it's, you know, you lose a lot of the charm there.
[02:05:27.610 --> 02:05:31.650]  [SPEAKER_25]: So, you know, people doing that, you've got to be kind of careful and think about what you're really doing.
[02:05:33.030 --> 02:05:42.390]  [SPEAKER_25]: I mean, you know, if you can make fake ID, I have no trouble with fake ID, but if you're making a business out of it, then you're benefiting from doing things that are fraudulent.
[02:05:42.590 --> 02:05:50.050]  [SPEAKER_25]: You know, you're making a profit out of it, and that's where the, you know, the real fun aspect of it goes away.
[02:05:50.950 --> 02:05:58.110]  [SPEAKER_25]: One student displayed his fake bus pass and fake identification card and offered to make a fake visitor's pass for a reporter who was denied access to the school.
[02:05:58.870 --> 02:06:02.990]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah, that's the kind of neat stuff we like to see.
[02:06:03.450 --> 02:06:06.910]  [SPEAKER_25]: The fraudulent documents were virtually indistinguishable from the real ones.
[02:06:07.150 --> 02:06:11.530]  [SPEAKER_25]: Other students spoke of one classmate who keeps a menu of fake credit cards in his school computer account.
[02:06:11.530 --> 02:06:14.630]  [SPEAKER_25]: He hangs out in the computer room and he brags about it, said one student.
[02:06:15.550 --> 02:06:20.190]  [SPEAKER_25]: Perulo said she had no knowledge of widespread computer fraud at her school, but she vowed to launch a probe.
[02:06:20.510 --> 02:06:31.810]  [SPEAKER_25]: She said school officials probably could trace the origin of the most recent Internet attacks on the colleges, but those computer addresses likely would not reveal the hackers' identities because the students were undoubtedly smart enough to cover their tracks.
[02:06:32.250 --> 02:06:37.590]  [SPEAKER_25]: We were told students are sophisticated enough to use the terminal address of another terminal, she said.
[02:06:37.850 --> 02:06:44.750]  [SPEAKER_25]: Students are given virtually unlimited access to the computers and can log on to the Internet using the school's account without teacher supervision.
[02:06:45.500 --> 02:06:56.210]  [SPEAKER_25]: Perulo said the school will hire additional computer consultants to create a tracking mechanism that can identify students on the system, but students remain confident that their peers could crack any code.
[02:06:57.430 --> 02:06:58.490]  [SPEAKER_25]: Undoubtedly, they will.
[02:06:58.810 --> 02:07:00.570]  [SPEAKER_25]: But, uh...
[02:07:00.570 --> 02:07:01.450]  [SPEAKER_25]: What do you think?
[02:07:01.690 --> 02:07:03.250]  [SPEAKER_25]: Do you think they should have more restrictions?
[02:07:03.790 --> 02:07:06.410]  [SPEAKER_21]: I don't know necessarily that they should have more restrictions.
[02:07:06.410 --> 02:07:11.090]  [SPEAKER_21]: I think they should have a lot more awareness that it's not cool to make fake credit cards.
[02:07:11.350 --> 02:07:13.290]  [SPEAKER_25]: No, because that leads to stealing.
[02:07:13.670 --> 02:07:15.390]  [SPEAKER_25]: Stealing money, stealing products.
[02:07:15.910 --> 02:07:24.430]  [SPEAKER_25]: Tangible theft, as opposed to wandering around in cyberspace and seeing how big the buildings are and things like that.
[02:07:24.510 --> 02:07:25.150]  [SPEAKER_25]: You know, it's different.
[02:07:25.710 --> 02:07:25.870]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah.
[02:07:26.350 --> 02:07:28.110]  [SPEAKER_25]: People argue with me all the time about this.
[02:07:28.210 --> 02:07:31.210]  [SPEAKER_25]: They try to equate it as the same way, but they just don't get it.
[02:07:31.370 --> 02:07:32.770]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's not the same thing.
[02:07:33.130 --> 02:07:43.750]  [SPEAKER_25]: You know, logging into a computer system and exploring is not the same thing as using a credit card and stealing, you know, clothing and records and whatever else you might buy with a credit card.
[02:07:43.830 --> 02:07:44.830]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's not the same thing.
[02:07:46.210 --> 02:07:55.070]  [SPEAKER_25]: Stuyvesant High School, by the way, was also where they filmed the large part of the film Hackers, which is coming out in August, which I think is kind of interesting.
[02:07:55.290 --> 02:07:56.630]  [SPEAKER_25]: There's a little sidebar here.
[02:07:56.690 --> 02:08:02.350]  [SPEAKER_25]: When Hollywood honchos sought out locations for the upcoming flick Hackers, they headed where else to Stuyvesant High School.
[02:08:02.930 --> 02:08:11.190]  [SPEAKER_25]: And the latest case of life-imitating art, the movie was filmed partly on location at the prestigious Lower Manhattan High School where the overall grade point average is A-.
[02:08:12.230 --> 02:08:14.630]  [SPEAKER_25]: But some jaded students were less impressed.
[02:08:15.210 --> 02:08:17.650]  [SPEAKER_25]: Everybody hated the movie, said sophomore Tal Levine.
[02:08:17.750 --> 02:08:18.790]  [SPEAKER_25]: It was corny and stupid.
[02:08:20.690 --> 02:08:26.990]  [SPEAKER_25]: But what do you expect from spoiled brats at a high school where average grade is A-?
[02:08:27.210 --> 02:08:29.010]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, we have an editorial.
[02:08:30.250 --> 02:08:33.750]  [SPEAKER_25]: Here's an editorial from today's...
[02:08:35.790 --> 02:08:36.230]  [SPEAKER_25]: Today's...
[02:08:36.910 --> 02:08:37.790]  [SPEAKER_25]: Daily News.
[02:08:38.030 --> 02:08:41.410]  [SPEAKER_25]: They had time to think about this, so now they're coming out with their editorials about it.
[02:08:41.590 --> 02:08:43.210]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's called Computer Delinquents.
[02:08:43.330 --> 02:08:46.130]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now, you know you know that that's got to be bad.
[02:08:48.950 --> 02:08:49.990]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, here we go.
[02:08:52.790 --> 02:09:01.550]  [SPEAKER_25]: If a bunch of punks broke into a college administration building just to see if they could do it, they'd be treated as the criminals they are.
[02:09:02.770 --> 02:09:07.770]  [SPEAKER_25]: Let the same bunch break into a computer system, though, and it's a different story.
[02:09:08.510 --> 02:09:12.830]  [SPEAKER_25]: The prime defense explanation is usually, but these kids are so smart.
[02:09:14.770 --> 02:09:17.470]  [SPEAKER_25]: As if that excused criminal activity.
[02:09:18.790 --> 02:09:25.870]  [SPEAKER_25]: Somewhere along the way, IQ has become more prized than ethical behavior.
[02:09:28.590 --> 02:09:43.090]  [SPEAKER_25]: The latest hacker caper has emanated from the brains at Stuyvesant High School, where students reportedly cracked a security code and did a little cyberspace snooping in the files of Columbia, Princeton, and Bucknell.
[02:09:43.510 --> 02:09:50.430]  [SPEAKER_25]: With them, the hackers, it's not a crime, it's a challenge, said a vice principal.
[02:09:55.270 --> 02:10:03.490]  [SPEAKER_25]: Since these pubescent Einsteins obviously have the intellect to understand the word crime, the problem must be attitudinal.
[02:10:03.990 --> 02:10:08.430]  [SPEAKER_25]: If you're smart, you're above the law.
[02:10:09.390 --> 02:10:15.210]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, it's up to law enforcement and Stuyvesant to provide a lesson to the contrary.
[02:10:17.110 --> 02:10:29.090]  [SPEAKER_25]: Principal Jinx Perullo gave indications yesterday that this would be done, noting that whatever the intent, this sort of behavior is unacceptable.
[02:10:33.150 --> 02:10:41.730]  [SPEAKER_25]: She said the school would launch a probe into computer abuse, tighten security, and start teaching ethics in technology courses.
[02:10:44.450 --> 02:10:48.570]  [SPEAKER_25]: But the best teaching is by example.
[02:10:49.310 --> 02:10:51.610]  [SPEAKER_25]: And that means stern punishment for violators.
[02:10:53.810 --> 02:11:02.530]  [SPEAKER_25]: For too long, hacking has been treated as a slightly risky form of recreation, the egghead's alternative to bungee jumping.
[02:11:04.330 --> 02:11:14.310]  [SPEAKER_25]: The hackers have even come to not condemnation, much less penalties.
[02:11:15.390 --> 02:11:25.210]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now, at Stuyvesant, is the perfect time for authorities to let the culprits know the rules have changed.
[02:11:35.310 --> 02:11:36.730]  [SPEAKER_25]: I don't know, what do you think of that?
[02:11:36.950 --> 02:11:41.050]  [SPEAKER_21]: I think while we're at it, we ought to string up those little commie pinkos by their thumbs.
[02:11:41.050 --> 02:11:41.590]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah.
[02:11:42.950 --> 02:11:44.530]  [SPEAKER_25]: I'm glad to hear you talk some sense here.
[02:11:44.790 --> 02:11:46.490]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's the kind of thing that's going on way too long.
[02:11:47.170 --> 02:11:48.410]  [SPEAKER_21]: I've got to put a stop to this menace.
[02:11:48.410 --> 02:11:50.030]  [SPEAKER_25]: These guys went in and they looked at things.
[02:11:50.330 --> 02:11:51.890]  [SPEAKER_25]: And, you know, we can't have that.
[02:11:52.250 --> 02:11:55.170]  [SPEAKER_25]: We have people walking around gazing at computers.
[02:11:55.930 --> 02:11:56.770]  [SPEAKER_25]: We've got to teach them lessons.
[02:11:56.890 --> 02:11:58.550]  [SPEAKER_25]: We've got to teach them fear.
[02:11:58.810 --> 02:11:59.850]  [SPEAKER_25]: We've got to teach them respect.
[02:12:01.150 --> 02:12:06.270]  [SPEAKER_25]: If that doesn't work, we'll just have to instill some more fear somewhere else.
[02:13:05.000 --> 02:13:08.200]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, it's 1117.
[02:13:08.200 --> 02:13:11.140]  [SPEAKER_25]: We're listening to music from the Clash here.
[02:13:13.440 --> 02:13:24.880]  [SPEAKER_25]: And, you're listening to Off the Hook, the radio program of the 90s for cyberspace and telephones and computers and hackers and things like that.
[02:13:26.670 --> 02:13:28.520]  [SPEAKER_25]: $1,705 for the show.
[02:13:29.560 --> 02:13:31.140]  [SPEAKER_25]: We're on for only another half hour.
[02:13:32.410 --> 02:13:35.200]  [SPEAKER_25]: And, we'd sure like to break $2,000 in that time.
[02:13:35.440 --> 02:13:37.620]  [SPEAKER_25]: The only way we can do that, though, is with your help.
[02:13:38.730 --> 02:13:41.320]  [SPEAKER_25]: 212-279-3400 is our telephone number.
[02:13:41.920 --> 02:13:51.920]  [SPEAKER_25]: If you like what you've been hearing, if you like what you've heard over the past weeks, months, years, who knows?
[02:13:52.540 --> 02:13:53.500]  [SPEAKER_25]: Give us a call.
[02:13:53.800 --> 02:13:56.180]  [SPEAKER_25]: 212-279-3400.
[02:14:05.290 --> 02:14:13.670]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's getting to that point where we kind of have to think of wrapping it up, you know?
[02:14:13.790 --> 02:14:17.930]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, we've got a half hour, so I guess there's still plenty of time to talk about various things.
[02:14:19.110 --> 02:14:20.490]  [SPEAKER_25]: Like this, for instance.
[02:14:20.870 --> 02:14:24.890]  [SPEAKER_25]: The Oregon ATM thief who was robbed himself.
[02:14:25.550 --> 02:14:33.790]  [SPEAKER_25]: First, he helped rip off $346,770 in one of the largest automated teller scams in the nation's history.
[02:14:34.270 --> 02:14:38.710]  [SPEAKER_25]: Then, when he tried to return some of the loot, he was robbed.
[02:14:40.090 --> 02:14:41.450]  [SPEAKER_25]: Not all went awry.
[02:14:41.990 --> 02:14:46.470]  [SPEAKER_25]: The robber who robbed the robber was caught, and the $60,000 was recovered.
[02:14:47.570 --> 02:14:51.950]  [SPEAKER_25]: To say it sounds like a coincidence would be an understatement, said police spokesman C.W.
[02:14:52.110 --> 02:14:52.390]  [SPEAKER_25]: Jensen.
[02:14:52.390 --> 02:15:03.490]  [SPEAKER_14]: Well, I want to have me A great deal of my mind Yeah, the money, money, money Yeah,
[02:15:06.830 --> 02:15:14.750]  [SPEAKER_25]: after talking to the suspect, the detective felt confident that what happened was exactly what was said.
[02:15:16.050 --> 02:15:18.090]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah, quick and to the point.
[02:15:19.790 --> 02:15:26.150]  [SPEAKER_25]: David Gallagher and four accomplices used a stolen bank card to rob 48 ATM machines on November 18th.
[02:15:26.270 --> 02:15:36.730]  [SPEAKER_25]: They were able to make 724 withdrawals on phony ATM deposits because a computer software problem removed the usual $200 daily limit on withdrawals.
[02:15:38.130 --> 02:15:46.950]  [SPEAKER_25]: Gallagher, who was on weekend release from jail, was confronted by a gunman Saturday as he headed to meet his lawyer to turn over some of the cash to the Secret Service as part of his plea bargain.
[02:15:48.210 --> 02:15:54.290]  [SPEAKER_25]: The man took off with the money, tossing some of it into the air as he was cornered by patrons from a bar a block away.
[02:15:54.450 --> 02:15:55.410]  [SPEAKER_25]: I guess they wanted a taste.
[02:15:57.230 --> 02:16:05.510]  [SPEAKER_25]: Justin Morris, 20 years old, in Milwaukee, was charged with first-degree robbery, unlawful use of a weapon, possession of a controlled substance, and running on a public street.
[02:16:06.450 --> 02:16:10.190]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, did they pass a new law or something?
[02:16:10.410 --> 02:16:12.190]  [SPEAKER_25]: Apparently that's not right either.
[02:16:13.350 --> 02:16:13.790]  Yeah.
[02:16:14.270 --> 02:16:14.630]  [SPEAKER_25]: All right.
[02:16:15.350 --> 02:16:17.850]  [SPEAKER_25]: We're moving into some weird and wacky times here.
[02:16:19.770 --> 02:16:21.370]  [SPEAKER_25]: 212-279-3400.
[02:16:21.850 --> 02:16:26.390]  [SPEAKER_25]: We need to reach our goal for this show, and we can do that with your help.
[02:16:26.570 --> 02:16:30.390]  [SPEAKER_25]: You can hear additional fun stories like this in the future.
[02:16:31.190 --> 02:16:35.310]  [SPEAKER_25]: If you give us a call and pledge your support to keep us going.
[02:16:35.930 --> 02:16:37.870]  [SPEAKER_25]: I guess I can't really say it any better than that.
[02:16:38.590 --> 02:16:41.910]  [SPEAKER_25]: We also have some word on caller ID.
[02:16:43.650 --> 02:16:45.230]  [SPEAKER_25]: Nationwide caller ID, that is.
[02:16:46.310 --> 02:16:47.310]  [SPEAKER_25]: You've heard about it, right?
[02:16:47.650 --> 02:16:48.170]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah.
[02:16:48.490 --> 02:16:48.830]  [SPEAKER_25]: All right.
[02:16:49.310 --> 02:16:51.070]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, they've postponed it.
[02:16:51.250 --> 02:16:52.930]  [SPEAKER_25]: They've postponed it, and they've made it better.
[02:16:53.330 --> 02:16:54.490]  [SPEAKER_25]: You know how they've done that?
[02:16:54.490 --> 02:16:58.790]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, first of all, Nationwide Caller ID was supposed to be here now.
[02:16:59.930 --> 02:17:03.490]  [SPEAKER_25]: I've heard reports that it is, but it's not officially supposed to be here yet.
[02:17:03.870 --> 02:17:07.130]  [SPEAKER_25]: Not until December 1st, as I believe one of our callers told us.
[02:17:07.370 --> 02:17:08.330]  [SPEAKER_25]: And that's another thing.
[02:17:08.450 --> 02:17:14.970]  [SPEAKER_25]: You know, we get a lot of our information from our callers either by writing in to us or by calling us and telling us various things.
[02:17:14.970 --> 02:17:19.510]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's really kind of neat, you know, this whole source of information thing we've got going here.
[02:17:20.750 --> 02:17:39.450]  [SPEAKER_25]: The Federal Communication Commission has voted to approve National Caller ID rules that will protect the privacy of the called and the calling party by mandating that the carriers make available a free, simple, and consistent per-call blocking and unblocking mechanism.
[02:17:39.450 --> 02:17:59.870]  [SPEAKER_25]: Under the rules adopted, callers dialing star 67 before dialing a particular call will, for interstate calls, block calling party information for any interstate calls, and those callers using a blocked line can unblock the line and release that information by dialing star 82,
[02:17:59.870 --> 02:18:01.850]  [SPEAKER_25]: which is what NYNEX introduced last year.
[02:18:03.070 --> 02:18:12.550]  [SPEAKER_25]: The order permits carriers to provide privacy on all calls dialed from a particular line where state policies provide and the customer selects that option.
[02:18:12.670 --> 02:18:22.670]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now, that's significant, because if you recall, the one that was supposed to take place this May, this month actually, said that they didn't have to do that.
[02:18:22.870 --> 02:18:28.970]  [SPEAKER_25]: In other words, NYNEX has to provide all call blocking within the state, but they didn't have to do it out of state.
[02:18:28.970 --> 02:18:37.230]  [SPEAKER_25]: They simply had to do star 67, and those regulations overrode the regulations of interstate caller ID.
[02:18:37.410 --> 02:18:41.250]  [SPEAKER_25]: So, that's actually pretty good, as far as I can see.
[02:18:41.630 --> 02:18:48.330]  [SPEAKER_25]: If you have caller ID blocking on your line, it will be blocked across state borders.
[02:18:48.750 --> 02:18:54.270]  [SPEAKER_25]: So, I think that's pretty significant and probably a result of a lot of consumer outcry.
[02:18:54.270 --> 02:19:00.830]  [SPEAKER_25]: Again, an example of the power that we all have in our little hands.
[02:19:01.370 --> 02:19:04.550]  [SPEAKER_25]: Call it the FCC, and you make your point.
[02:19:04.810 --> 02:19:06.350]  [SPEAKER_25]: You call it the PSC, you make your point.
[02:19:06.430 --> 02:19:08.230]  [SPEAKER_25]: You might just see some changes.
[02:19:08.390 --> 02:19:09.330]  [SPEAKER_25]: Same thing with NYNEX.
[02:19:09.590 --> 02:19:13.430]  [SPEAKER_25]: Do you see NYNEX saw some sort of an improvement in the first quarter of this year?
[02:19:14.090 --> 02:19:17.510]  [SPEAKER_25]: Something like a 25% improvement in service orders.
[02:19:17.850 --> 02:19:18.190]  [SPEAKER_20]: Wow.
[02:19:18.190 --> 02:19:23.730]  [SPEAKER_25]: Only, I think, 70% of people expressed dissatisfaction with NYNEX, as opposed to 90%.
[02:19:25.070 --> 02:19:26.410]  [SPEAKER_25]: Something along those lines.
[02:19:26.550 --> 02:19:30.070]  [SPEAKER_25]: They said, it's not quite what we hope to achieve yet, but we're getting there.
[02:19:30.170 --> 02:19:32.490]  [SPEAKER_25]: And we hope by the year 3000 to get there entirely.
[02:19:33.890 --> 02:19:35.150]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, we'll see about that.
[02:19:36.070 --> 02:19:36.370]  [SPEAKER_25]: All right.
[02:19:36.470 --> 02:19:37.930]  [SPEAKER_25]: 212-279-3400.
[02:19:39.570 --> 02:19:40.350]  [SPEAKER_25]: Should we do it?
[02:19:40.610 --> 02:19:43.990]  [SPEAKER_25]: Should we open up some phone lines so people can call us?
[02:19:44.170 --> 02:19:44.550]  [SPEAKER_25]: Sure.
[02:19:44.690 --> 02:19:44.970]  [SPEAKER_25]: All right.
[02:19:45.050 --> 02:19:45.350]  [SPEAKER_25]: Why not?
[02:19:45.510 --> 02:19:48.390]  [SPEAKER_25]: Because people have been good to us tonight, and we want to express our appreciation.
[02:19:49.150 --> 02:19:54.330]  [SPEAKER_25]: 212-279-3407 is our number to call to be on the air.
[02:19:54.990 --> 02:19:55.410]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yes.
[02:19:55.610 --> 02:20:01.870]  [SPEAKER_25]: But please, if you call and you get a busy signal, consider calling the other line and pledging.
[02:20:01.870 --> 02:20:09.050]  [SPEAKER_25]: Because by pledging, you're making it possible for people to call year-round and be on the air and share information.
[02:20:09.650 --> 02:20:10.950]  [SPEAKER_25]: Pledge whatever you can afford.
[02:20:11.090 --> 02:20:12.330]  [SPEAKER_25]: You don't have to pledge $75.
[02:20:12.670 --> 02:20:15.270]  [SPEAKER_25]: You don't have to pledge $100 to get those special premiums we offered.
[02:20:15.590 --> 02:20:18.010]  [SPEAKER_25]: You can pledge whatever you can afford.
[02:20:18.050 --> 02:20:19.090]  [SPEAKER_25]: It all makes a difference.
[02:20:19.570 --> 02:20:21.450]  [SPEAKER_25]: And we'll give you something in return.
[02:20:21.830 --> 02:20:27.090]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's up to our volunteers that are currently standing by the phones waiting for them to ring.
[02:20:27.230 --> 02:20:29.090]  [SPEAKER_25]: 212-279-3400.
[02:20:29.190 --> 02:20:30.250]  [SPEAKER_25]: Shall we go to the first line?
[02:20:30.370 --> 02:20:30.890]  [SPEAKER_25]: Let's do it.
[02:20:30.910 --> 02:20:31.690]  [SPEAKER_25]: Let's see who's out there.
[02:20:31.870 --> 02:20:32.410]  [SPEAKER_25]: Good evening.
[02:20:32.570 --> 02:20:32.790]  [SPEAKER_25]: You're on.
[02:20:33.270 --> 02:20:33.630]  [SPEAKER_10]: Oh, yes.
[02:20:33.750 --> 02:20:34.310]  [SPEAKER_10]: Hi, Emmanuel.
[02:20:34.730 --> 02:20:35.310]  [SPEAKER_25]: How are you doing?
[02:20:35.370 --> 02:20:35.910]  [SPEAKER_10]: Turn down the radio.
[02:20:36.150 --> 02:20:36.550]  [SPEAKER_25]: How are you doing?
[02:20:37.110 --> 02:20:37.370]  [SPEAKER_10]: Hello?
[02:20:37.830 --> 02:20:38.170]  [SPEAKER_25]: Go ahead.
[02:20:38.290 --> 02:20:38.510]  [SPEAKER_25]: You're on.
[02:20:38.650 --> 02:20:38.830]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah?
[02:20:39.470 --> 02:20:40.030]  [SPEAKER_10]: Oh, wow.
[02:20:40.190 --> 02:20:40.410]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay.
[02:20:40.490 --> 02:20:40.670]  [SPEAKER_10]: Hi.
[02:20:40.730 --> 02:20:41.310]  [SPEAKER_10]: How are you doing, Emmanuel?
[02:20:41.510 --> 02:20:41.870]  [SPEAKER_25]: Pretty good.
[02:20:41.930 --> 02:20:43.210]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's pretty thrilling to be on the air, isn't it?
[02:20:43.530 --> 02:20:44.050]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, it is.
[02:20:44.210 --> 02:20:45.450]  [SPEAKER_10]: Imagine if you didn't have that thrill.
[02:20:45.450 --> 02:20:46.450]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah, I just tried to say something.
[02:20:46.450 --> 02:20:48.330]  [SPEAKER_25]: Imagine if we couldn't both talk at the same time.
[02:20:48.410 --> 02:20:48.610]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay.
[02:20:48.850 --> 02:20:49.130]  [SPEAKER_25]: You know?
[02:20:49.710 --> 02:20:51.110]  [SPEAKER_25]: New York would be lacking something.
[02:20:51.830 --> 02:20:52.070]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yes.
[02:20:52.590 --> 02:20:52.950]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay.
[02:20:53.590 --> 02:20:53.950]  [SPEAKER_10]: I'm...
[02:20:53.950 --> 02:20:55.130]  [SPEAKER_10]: Concerning ISDN.
[02:20:55.230 --> 02:20:55.750]  [SPEAKER_10]: Glad we agree.
[02:20:55.890 --> 02:20:56.170]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yes.
[02:20:56.430 --> 02:20:56.790]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yes.
[02:20:56.930 --> 02:21:02.070]  [SPEAKER_10]: I'm aware of a system from ISDN Systems Corporation in Virginia.
[02:21:02.590 --> 02:21:03.870]  [SPEAKER_25]: ISDN Systems Corporation?
[02:21:04.010 --> 02:21:05.410]  [SPEAKER_25]: Are you sure they deal with ISDN?
[02:21:06.530 --> 02:21:07.750]  [SPEAKER_21]: Very original name there.
[02:21:07.870 --> 02:21:08.250]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, really.
[02:21:08.550 --> 02:21:09.410]  [SPEAKER_25]: Surprised they got it.
[02:21:10.150 --> 02:21:10.410]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay.
[02:21:10.510 --> 02:21:11.090]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah, what about it?
[02:21:11.170 --> 02:21:11.490]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay.
[02:21:11.690 --> 02:21:13.210]  [SPEAKER_10]: Well, it's an all-in-one type board.
[02:21:13.370 --> 02:21:14.950]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's fiber optic mentioned.
[02:21:15.710 --> 02:21:17.930]  [SPEAKER_10]: And if I can mention price, I don't know.
[02:21:18.390 --> 02:21:18.850]  [SPEAKER_13]: Sure, go ahead.
[02:21:19.010 --> 02:21:23.150]  [SPEAKER_10]: They offer it for $199 in the NYNEX service area.
[02:21:23.410 --> 02:21:27.450]  [SPEAKER_10]: In certain service areas, they offer it at that price.
[02:21:28.150 --> 02:21:28.930]  [SPEAKER_10]: And it...
[02:21:28.930 --> 02:21:39.770]  [SPEAKER_10]: I don't have the sheet in my hand, but it offers the RJ11 service, the high-speed serial port, as he said, certain security features.
[02:21:40.210 --> 02:21:41.110]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's a pretty...
[02:21:41.110 --> 02:21:42.050]  [SPEAKER_10]: Very comprehensive board.
[02:21:42.870 --> 02:21:45.830]  [SPEAKER_10]: So I just have the information there, and you can check up on it.
[02:21:46.150 --> 02:21:47.870]  [SPEAKER_25]: Does this sound like the same kind of board you were talking about?
[02:21:47.870 --> 02:21:49.070]  [SPEAKER_25]: Oh, well...
[02:21:49.070 --> 02:21:49.790]  [SPEAKER_25]: Oh, I...
[02:21:49.790 --> 02:21:55.970]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah, you can now hear the phones ringing when people call us, so please give us a call, 212-279-3400.
[02:21:56.190 --> 02:22:02.390]  [SPEAKER_25]: Not just to hear the phone ring on the air, but to pledge to us, because that's very important to us to keep going.
[02:22:02.450 --> 02:22:03.250]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's why we're here tonight.
[02:22:03.690 --> 02:22:04.470]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now, continue.
[02:22:04.890 --> 02:22:06.310]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah, I wasn't actually...
[02:22:06.310 --> 02:22:08.070]  [SPEAKER_21]: The product I was describing wasn't a board.
[02:22:08.090 --> 02:22:10.310]  [SPEAKER_21]: It was actually a standalone unit.
[02:22:10.490 --> 02:22:11.470]  [SPEAKER_13]: Oh, it's a standalone unit?
[02:22:11.510 --> 02:22:14.950]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah, which means you could use it on any computer at all, with a serial port.
[02:22:15.150 --> 02:22:16.490]  [SPEAKER_10]: Oh, it goes through the serial port?
[02:22:16.490 --> 02:22:17.050]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah, yeah.
[02:22:17.190 --> 02:22:17.950]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay, I'm...
[02:22:17.950 --> 02:22:19.990]  [SPEAKER_10]: They might offer other products.
[02:22:20.090 --> 02:22:23.850]  [SPEAKER_10]: I just hope you could check up on it, since I don't have an ISDN line.
[02:22:24.010 --> 02:22:26.130]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, why don't you give us the information one more time, the name of the company?
[02:22:27.670 --> 02:22:29.850]  [SPEAKER_10]: It's ISDN Systems Corporation.
[02:22:31.550 --> 02:22:32.890]  [SPEAKER_10]: I have a...
[02:22:32.890 --> 02:22:33.830]  [SPEAKER_25]: You have a phone number for them?
[02:22:34.870 --> 02:22:38.130]  [SPEAKER_10]: I had a phone number, but apparently it was somebody's resident.
[02:22:38.770 --> 02:22:39.350]  [SPEAKER_25]: Oh, dear.
[02:22:39.930 --> 02:22:40.350]  [SPEAKER_25]: Oh, boy.
[02:22:40.470 --> 02:22:42.350]  [SPEAKER_10]: They have a web address.
[02:22:42.530 --> 02:22:43.430]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, why don't you give us that?
[02:22:43.870 --> 02:22:44.250]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay.
[02:22:45.050 --> 02:22:45.970]  [SPEAKER_10]: H-T-P...
[02:22:45.970 --> 02:22:47.130]  [SPEAKER_10]: H-T-T-P...
[02:22:47.130 --> 02:22:47.750]  [SPEAKER_10]: I guess you know that.
[02:22:47.950 --> 02:22:48.150]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah.
[02:22:48.350 --> 02:22:49.830]  [SPEAKER_10]: Colon, double slash...
[02:22:49.830 --> 02:22:50.110]  [SPEAKER_13]: Uh-huh.
[02:22:50.110 --> 02:23:15.210]  [SPEAKER_10]: W-W-W-W dot infoanalytic dot com forward slash I-F-C forward slash index dot H-T-M-L.
[02:23:15.970 --> 02:23:16.590]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay.
[02:23:17.090 --> 02:23:17.570]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay.
[02:23:17.970 --> 02:23:22.710]  [SPEAKER_25]: All right, well, I'm sure people are already clicking on that and downloading it right now, even as we speak.
[02:23:22.830 --> 02:23:24.250]  [SPEAKER_10]: Okay, if I could ask one thing.
[02:23:24.390 --> 02:23:24.610]  [SPEAKER_10]: Yes.
[02:23:24.910 --> 02:23:25.690]  [SPEAKER_10]: Is there...
[02:23:25.690 --> 02:23:29.710]  [SPEAKER_10]: Could you make available just a very simple sheet on the ISDN rates?
[02:23:29.710 --> 02:23:33.110]  [SPEAKER_10]: I got something from the phone company, and it totally confused me.
[02:23:33.210 --> 02:23:34.850]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, yeah, we're totally confused, too.
[02:23:35.690 --> 02:23:40.810]  [SPEAKER_25]: If we ever get to the point where we're not confused, we'll try and break it down for people so they can understand it.
[02:23:40.810 --> 02:23:41.790]  [SPEAKER_21]: Well, we can...
[02:23:41.790 --> 02:23:45.070]  [SPEAKER_21]: Next week, I could bring in the rate structure, and I can...
[02:23:45.070 --> 02:23:46.930]  [SPEAKER_21]: We can both break it down and explain...
[02:23:46.930 --> 02:23:48.450]  [SPEAKER_25]: We're only on for an hour next week.
[02:23:48.570 --> 02:23:49.330]  [SPEAKER_21]: That is true.
[02:23:49.550 --> 02:23:49.810]  [SPEAKER_25]: All right.
[02:23:49.970 --> 02:23:50.810]  [SPEAKER_25]: Not enough time, right?
[02:23:50.890 --> 02:23:52.170]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, okay, we'll try this again.
[02:23:52.770 --> 02:23:53.530]  [SPEAKER_25]: All right, thanks for calling.
[02:23:54.850 --> 02:23:55.910]  [SPEAKER_25]: 212-279-34...
[02:23:55.910 --> 02:23:56.970]  [SPEAKER_25]: I forgot to ask him if he pledged.
[02:23:57.550 --> 02:23:58.010]  [SPEAKER_25]: All right.
[02:23:58.210 --> 02:24:00.010]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, yeah, let's make it sort of an unwritten rule here.
[02:24:00.050 --> 02:24:06.710]  [SPEAKER_25]: If you get on the air, you're going to call and you're going to pledge after you get on the air because, you know, it's a righteous thing to do, you know?
[02:24:06.850 --> 02:24:07.010]  [SPEAKER_25]: Righteous.
[02:24:07.010 --> 02:24:09.990]  [SPEAKER_25]: And we do need all the help we can get.
[02:24:10.330 --> 02:24:14.610]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now, I don't know if the number's been updated because it looks like it's staying the same.
[02:24:14.750 --> 02:24:16.870]  [SPEAKER_25]: We're at 17.05, and that's...
[02:24:16.870 --> 02:24:21.650]  [SPEAKER_25]: You know, if that's still the same, if we haven't gotten anything in the last 15 minutes, that's upsetting.
[02:24:22.010 --> 02:24:22.790]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's upsetting.
[02:24:22.910 --> 02:24:32.170]  [SPEAKER_25]: I don't want to be upset because it's such a nice night out, and we want to have a lot of people helping us to move forward into the next year.
[02:24:32.170 --> 02:24:45.750]  [SPEAKER_25]: Remember, 212-279-3400, again, to repeat what we have available, and this is above and beyond anything else that is already available when you just call and pledge whatever you can afford.
[02:24:45.970 --> 02:25:02.410]  [SPEAKER_25]: If you pledge $75, you will get a subscription to 2600 Magazine, which, as I understand it, is the nation's leading hacker magazine having to do with subjects of computer hacking and phone-freaking and all kinds of other neat things.
[02:25:03.190 --> 02:25:04.310]  [SPEAKER_25]: You want these back, don't you?
[02:25:04.510 --> 02:25:04.690]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay.
[02:25:05.630 --> 02:25:08.690]  [SPEAKER_25]: One moment, while I give the cards back to the Tali people.
[02:25:08.850 --> 02:25:09.250]  [SPEAKER_25]: There you go.
[02:25:10.130 --> 02:25:10.670]  [SPEAKER_25]: Thank you.
[02:25:12.090 --> 02:25:19.410]  [SPEAKER_25]: All right, so you will get a one-year subscription to that journal, which I happen to know quite a lot of people that work for it.
[02:25:20.670 --> 02:25:24.990]  [SPEAKER_25]: And also, you'll get a 2600 official T-shirt.
[02:25:25.870 --> 02:25:29.670]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now, this is a 2600 T-shirt that has the... we all have one, right?
[02:25:29.910 --> 02:25:30.430]  [SPEAKER_25]: We all have one.
[02:25:30.490 --> 02:25:32.270]  [SPEAKER_25]: In fact, Farber, you even have one of the old ones.
[02:25:32.470 --> 02:25:33.510]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah, I have one of the original ones.
[02:25:33.570 --> 02:25:39.590]  [SPEAKER_25]: And the fact that you have one of those old ones, those real old ones, earns you a lot of respect, doesn't it?
[02:25:39.690 --> 02:25:40.110]  [SPEAKER_25]: Oh, yeah.
[02:25:40.830 --> 02:25:41.190]  [SPEAKER_25]: Undoubtedly.
[02:25:41.430 --> 02:25:43.390]  [SPEAKER_25]: Old ladies get up on the bus and give you their seat.
[02:25:43.590 --> 02:25:43.890]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah.
[02:25:44.410 --> 02:25:46.710]  [SPEAKER_25]: You get waved through, token turnstiles.
[02:25:46.870 --> 02:25:52.130]  [SPEAKER_25]: Cab drivers drive you wherever you want to go, gratis, and all kinds of neat things.
[02:25:52.130 --> 02:25:58.350]  [SPEAKER_25]: You get the best cuts in restaurants, and it's just amazing, because you're wearing something that is no longer available.
[02:25:58.490 --> 02:26:02.150]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now, that is soon to be the case with the 2600 T-shirts of now.
[02:26:02.910 --> 02:26:05.810]  [SPEAKER_25]: You have one of the old ones that is black lettering on white.
[02:26:06.090 --> 02:26:06.270]  [SPEAKER_25]: Right.
[02:26:06.650 --> 02:26:08.010]  [SPEAKER_25]: But not very many people know about that.
[02:26:08.570 --> 02:26:14.250]  [SPEAKER_25]: Right now, the ones that you see around, the white lettering on black, they're in their last printing.
[02:26:14.730 --> 02:26:15.730]  [SPEAKER_25]: Their last printing.
[02:26:15.890 --> 02:26:18.890]  [SPEAKER_25]: We are about to change our design and go to a new one.
[02:26:18.890 --> 02:26:26.730]  [SPEAKER_25]: So, we are offering these, as part of the $75 pledge, a one-year subscription to the magazine, and a T-shirt.
[02:26:27.490 --> 02:26:30.590]  [SPEAKER_25]: And it's not just a, you know, a scraggly T-shirt here.
[02:26:30.650 --> 02:26:31.850]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's a good T-shirt.
[02:26:31.970 --> 02:26:32.710]  [SPEAKER_25]: It lasts you for years.
[02:26:32.710 --> 02:26:37.170]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's nice and thick and, you know, worthy of respect.
[02:26:37.750 --> 02:26:37.970]  [SPEAKER_21]: Definitely.
[02:26:38.210 --> 02:26:55.930]  [SPEAKER_25]: And for a pledge of $100, you can get a subscription to the magazine, as well as a hardcover copy of Masters of Deception, which is the book that Phiber Optik is featured in, as well as many other hackers and crackers, as they described them, of today.
[02:26:57.010 --> 02:27:02.430]  [SPEAKER_25]: And, you know, you may have differing views on the things that you read, but they are definitely interesting.
[02:27:02.630 --> 02:27:05.110]  [SPEAKER_25]: So, please keep those phone calls coming in.
[02:27:05.110 --> 02:27:07.450]  [SPEAKER_25]: 1-2-2-7-9-3-400.
[02:27:08.650 --> 02:27:09.590]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's our phone number.
[02:27:10.370 --> 02:27:11.210]  [SPEAKER_25]: It really is.
[02:27:12.110 --> 02:27:12.370]  [SPEAKER_25]: All right.
[02:27:12.590 --> 02:27:13.510]  [SPEAKER_25]: So, should we take another phone call?
[02:27:13.610 --> 02:27:13.870]  [SPEAKER_25]: Sure.
[02:27:14.050 --> 02:27:14.230]  [SPEAKER_25]: Let's do it.
[02:27:14.330 --> 02:27:14.430]  [SPEAKER_25]: All right.
[02:27:14.630 --> 02:27:14.930]  [SPEAKER_25]: Good evening.
[02:27:14.990 --> 02:27:15.250]  [SPEAKER_25]: You're on.
[02:27:15.910 --> 02:27:16.270]  [SPEAKER_25]: Hi.
[02:27:18.290 --> 02:27:18.830]  [SPEAKER_25]: Go ahead.
[02:27:18.990 --> 02:27:19.350]  [SPEAKER_04]: Am I on?
[02:27:19.450 --> 02:27:19.570]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh.
[02:27:19.790 --> 02:27:20.090]  [SPEAKER_25]: You're on.
[02:27:20.710 --> 02:27:21.910]  [SPEAKER_04]: Do you know what Channel 1 is?
[02:27:22.450 --> 02:27:22.830]  [SPEAKER_25]: Oh, what?
[02:27:22.830 --> 02:27:24.910]  [SPEAKER_25]: Do you mean the news channel thing that New York City has?
[02:27:24.990 --> 02:27:28.190]  [SPEAKER_25]: Or do you mean the WIDA communications thing that gets piped to the school kids?
[02:27:28.310 --> 02:27:28.470]  [SPEAKER_25]: Right.
[02:27:28.510 --> 02:27:28.830]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's it.
[02:27:28.970 --> 02:27:29.530]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's the one.
[02:27:29.650 --> 02:27:30.210]  [SPEAKER_25]: Oh, boy.
[02:27:30.330 --> 02:27:35.970]  [SPEAKER_25]: I don't have high opinions of that, because they pipe commercials to school kids who are captive audiences.
[02:27:36.290 --> 02:27:36.430]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[02:27:36.530 --> 02:27:38.970]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, I'm one of those kids, but there was a lot of controversy about that.
[02:27:39.170 --> 02:27:40.130]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, I'm glad to hear it.
[02:27:40.290 --> 02:27:40.810]  [SPEAKER_04]: A few months ago.
[02:27:41.110 --> 02:27:41.330]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh-huh.
[02:27:41.410 --> 02:27:51.910]  [SPEAKER_04]: But anyway, this week they're doing a series on computer crime, and on Tuesday they had, it's only about 10 minutes or so, but they had a few minutes on the Masters of Deception.
[02:27:52.430 --> 02:27:52.790]  [SPEAKER_11]: Did they?
[02:27:53.010 --> 02:27:53.150]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[02:27:54.130 --> 02:27:58.530]  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know who was on, because I haven't really been following it, but you'd be interested to hear that.
[02:27:59.150 --> 02:28:01.670]  [SPEAKER_25]: And I guess they show commercials surrounding that, didn't they?
[02:28:01.670 --> 02:28:07.190]  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, yeah, they have two sets of commercials, about a minute each.
[02:28:07.430 --> 02:28:07.610]  [SPEAKER_25]: Uh-huh.
[02:28:08.050 --> 02:28:09.630]  [SPEAKER_25]: Are you allowed to talk during the commercials?
[02:28:10.390 --> 02:28:12.690]  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, we're basically allowed to talk during the whole thing.
[02:28:12.730 --> 02:28:13.010]  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[02:28:13.830 --> 02:28:14.590]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, that's good.
[02:28:14.650 --> 02:28:15.050]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's good.
[02:28:15.310 --> 02:28:19.070]  [SPEAKER_25]: I'd hate to think that people are actually forcing their students to listen to this.
[02:28:19.250 --> 02:28:19.630]  [SPEAKER_04]: You know?
[02:28:19.650 --> 02:28:20.790]  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, they make us listen.
[02:28:20.990 --> 02:28:22.490]  [SPEAKER_04]: Last year they made us take notes and stuff.
[02:28:22.650 --> 02:28:22.850]  [SPEAKER_25]: Really?
[02:28:23.270 --> 02:28:25.350]  [SPEAKER_25]: Are you quizzed on the things that you see there?
[02:28:25.870 --> 02:28:28.290]  [SPEAKER_04]: Um, we have like a current events test.
[02:28:28.510 --> 02:28:28.690]  [SPEAKER_25]: Uh-huh.
[02:28:28.690 --> 02:28:29.950]  [SPEAKER_04]: Every once in a while or something?
[02:28:30.230 --> 02:28:30.370]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah.
[02:28:30.930 --> 02:28:33.830]  [SPEAKER_25]: You know, you'd be better off watching CNN or something, I think.
[02:28:33.930 --> 02:28:34.330]  [SPEAKER_25]: Oh, definitely.
[02:28:34.330 --> 02:28:36.430]  [SPEAKER_25]: I think CNN even has something for school kids.
[02:28:36.710 --> 02:28:42.730]  [SPEAKER_25]: And just recently, this year, in fact, BBC offers their news feed to cable systems in this country.
[02:28:42.790 --> 02:28:47.730]  [SPEAKER_25]: So, if you have cable TV, I'd strongly suggest you call them and ask them to carry BBC news.
[02:28:47.870 --> 02:28:51.290]  [SPEAKER_25]: I mean, that and CNN together will provide you some really, really good coverage.
[02:28:51.390 --> 02:28:58.790]  [SPEAKER_25]: For instance, you know, this whole thing with the Ebola virus is probably blacked out in this country, but BBC is doing all kinds of coverage of it.
[02:28:59.170 --> 02:29:02.130]  [SPEAKER_25]: And I think it's something that people need to hear and learn from.
[02:29:02.510 --> 02:29:02.710]  [SPEAKER_04]: Right.
[02:29:02.750 --> 02:29:03.950]  [SPEAKER_04]: My friend's very interested in that.
[02:29:04.010 --> 02:29:09.750]  [SPEAKER_04]: He was on all the different World Health Organization web page and stuff, checking out all that stuff.
[02:29:09.890 --> 02:29:11.250]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah, there's a lot of interest in it.
[02:29:11.310 --> 02:29:12.310]  [SPEAKER_25]: People want to learn more.
[02:29:12.770 --> 02:29:15.690]  [SPEAKER_25]: And, you know, even the New York Times wasn't covering it.
[02:29:15.790 --> 02:29:17.010]  [SPEAKER_25]: So, you have to wonder, why?
[02:29:17.190 --> 02:29:18.950]  [SPEAKER_25]: What are they not saying?
[02:29:19.090 --> 02:29:22.210]  [SPEAKER_25]: There's something going on, obviously, and we should be hearing it.
[02:29:22.210 --> 02:29:32.150]  [SPEAKER_25]: And this country is widely known for not taking an interest in other cultures, other societies, what people are saying in other parts of the world.
[02:29:32.510 --> 02:29:40.590]  [SPEAKER_25]: This is a way to, you know, to change that a little bit, to voice your opinion and ask your cable company to carry something different.
[02:29:40.850 --> 02:29:41.170]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh-huh.
[02:29:41.410 --> 02:29:43.150]  [SPEAKER_25]: And maybe it'll make a difference.
[02:29:43.330 --> 02:29:44.470]  [SPEAKER_25]: Maybe your school will carry it, too.
[02:29:44.730 --> 02:29:45.190]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, maybe.
[02:29:45.550 --> 02:29:48.030]  [SPEAKER_04]: Because Channel 1 just merged with ABC, I think.
[02:29:48.430 --> 02:29:48.670]  [SPEAKER_25]: Uh-huh.
[02:29:48.670 --> 02:29:52.270]  [SPEAKER_04]: They're allowed to use some of their news feed now for some of their stories.
[02:29:52.430 --> 02:29:52.610]  [SPEAKER_25]: Really?
[02:29:53.010 --> 02:29:53.170]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[02:29:53.330 --> 02:29:53.850]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's interesting.
[02:29:54.150 --> 02:29:55.390]  [SPEAKER_04]: I also want to ask you a question.
[02:29:55.570 --> 02:29:57.030]  [SPEAKER_04]: You were saying about the encryption before?
[02:29:57.290 --> 02:29:57.450]  [SPEAKER_25]: Mm-hmm.
[02:29:57.670 --> 02:30:02.330]  [SPEAKER_04]: The government, is that referring to, like, computer programs that would encrypt files?
[02:30:03.170 --> 02:30:04.210]  [SPEAKER_04]: Or how does that work?
[02:30:04.490 --> 02:30:06.950]  [SPEAKER_21]: I think they were talking about encryption in general.
[02:30:07.730 --> 02:30:12.730]  [SPEAKER_21]: Any encryption that would impede a federal investigation, I think, would be considered illegal.
[02:30:13.130 --> 02:30:14.130]  [SPEAKER_25]: Let me give you an example.
[02:30:14.310 --> 02:30:17.790]  [SPEAKER_25]: At 2600.com, which is our new service that we put up for the magazine.
[02:30:17.910 --> 02:30:18.270]  [SPEAKER_25]: I like it.
[02:30:18.670 --> 02:30:18.970]  [SPEAKER_25]: Sorry?
[02:30:19.090 --> 02:30:19.910]  [SPEAKER_04]: I saw your web page.
[02:30:19.970 --> 02:30:20.330]  [SPEAKER_04]: I like it.
[02:30:20.510 --> 02:30:21.350]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, it's nothing yet.
[02:30:21.470 --> 02:30:22.150]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's nothing yet.
[02:30:22.170 --> 02:30:22.690]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's getting there.
[02:30:22.790 --> 02:30:23.270]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's getting there.
[02:30:23.330 --> 02:30:24.010]  [SPEAKER_25]: It'll be good soon.
[02:30:24.690 --> 02:30:25.650]  [SPEAKER_25]: But thanks anyway.
[02:30:26.870 --> 02:30:38.210]  [SPEAKER_25]: We're getting to the point where all of our writers, our contributors, various people that have something to do with the magazine throughout the country, throughout the world, in fact, are logging onto this system.
[02:30:38.210 --> 02:30:45.730]  [SPEAKER_25]: And what we have is a special feature that enables you, if you want to do this, and a lot of people do, to protect your files when you log off.
[02:30:45.730 --> 02:30:54.390]  [SPEAKER_25]: It only takes an extra couple of seconds, too, to do this, automatically PGPs and stores it in encrypted format.
[02:30:54.550 --> 02:31:03.570]  [SPEAKER_25]: Therefore, if somebody comes in and takes the machine, if the machine is, God forbid, seized or someone gains access to it somehow, your files are encrypted.
[02:31:03.570 --> 02:31:04.830]  [SPEAKER_25]: Nobody can read them.
[02:31:05.130 --> 02:31:06.330]  [SPEAKER_25]: We can't even read them.
[02:31:06.550 --> 02:31:08.150]  [SPEAKER_25]: You know, the system administrators can't even read them.
[02:31:08.230 --> 02:31:09.590]  [SPEAKER_25]: That's the way it should be designed.
[02:31:09.810 --> 02:31:10.470]  [SPEAKER_25]: And that's...
[02:31:10.470 --> 02:31:18.970]  [SPEAKER_25]: We're trying to design this, you know, with the hacker mentality in mind, to provide encryption, to provide security, to prepare for the worst-case scenario.
[02:31:19.250 --> 02:31:21.870]  [SPEAKER_25]: And now they're going to turn around and tell us that what we're doing is illegal.
[02:31:22.430 --> 02:31:24.050]  [SPEAKER_25]: It simply boggles the mind.
[02:31:24.170 --> 02:31:27.570]  [SPEAKER_25]: You know, we're trying to make a secure system, and they don't want us to do that.
[02:31:27.790 --> 02:31:27.970]  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh-huh.
[02:31:28.630 --> 02:31:30.190]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it's amazing what they're trying to do.
[02:31:30.190 --> 02:31:35.690]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah, well, you know, we don't intend to dumb down the system for the benefit of any federal agencies, I can tell you that.
[02:31:36.810 --> 02:31:37.070]  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[02:31:37.370 --> 02:31:37.650]  [SPEAKER_25]: All right.
[02:31:37.730 --> 02:31:38.630]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, listen, thanks for calling.
[02:31:38.890 --> 02:31:39.170]  [SPEAKER_04]: Thank you.
[02:31:39.350 --> 02:31:39.650]  [SPEAKER_25]: All right.
[02:31:39.850 --> 02:31:40.070]  Bye-bye.
[02:31:41.750 --> 02:31:44.150]  [SPEAKER_25]: So, yeah, that Channel 1 is everywhere.
[02:31:44.490 --> 02:31:46.810]  [SPEAKER_25]: I didn't go to school when that thing existed, but...
[02:31:46.810 --> 02:31:47.570]  [SPEAKER_25]: I didn't either.
[02:31:47.830 --> 02:31:47.970]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah.
[02:31:48.070 --> 02:31:54.130]  [SPEAKER_25]: They donate equipment, I know that, but it's not worth it, I'm sorry, to pipe commercials in to kids.
[02:31:54.610 --> 02:31:58.270]  [SPEAKER_25]: I just don't think it's, you know, education should not have...
[02:31:58.270 --> 02:32:00.210]  [SPEAKER_25]: I mean, they want to put advertisements on school buses.
[02:32:00.350 --> 02:32:00.990]  [SPEAKER_25]: Did you hear that one?
[02:32:01.090 --> 02:32:01.290]  [SPEAKER_25]: No.
[02:32:01.530 --> 02:32:05.910]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah, to supplement the city income, they want to put billboards on the school bus.
[02:32:05.950 --> 02:32:07.490]  [SPEAKER_25]: I mean, where is it going to end, you know?
[02:32:08.570 --> 02:32:13.410]  [SPEAKER_25]: I mean, already you have Burger King and McDonald's in schools, you know, in colleges, for instance.
[02:32:13.870 --> 02:32:17.110]  [SPEAKER_25]: As, you know, they provide lunch and dinner and things like that.
[02:32:17.170 --> 02:32:19.470]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's not like real food, it's junk food, you know?
[02:32:19.470 --> 02:32:23.150]  [SPEAKER_25]: And this is corporate mentality is taking over everywhere we look.
[02:32:23.690 --> 02:32:24.130]  [SPEAKER_25]: Everywhere.
[02:32:26.490 --> 02:32:28.190]  [SPEAKER_25]: Did we do the promo yet for McDonald's?
[02:32:28.310 --> 02:32:28.450]  [SPEAKER_25]: No.
[02:32:28.730 --> 02:32:28.930]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay.
[02:32:30.010 --> 02:32:31.070]  [SPEAKER_25]: That will never happen here.
[02:32:31.290 --> 02:32:32.910]  [SPEAKER_25]: 212-279-3400.
[02:32:33.090 --> 02:32:35.130]  [SPEAKER_25]: Please show your support.
[02:32:35.770 --> 02:32:41.310]  [SPEAKER_25]: Looks like we broke the 2000 barrier, but we won't have an official word on that until 1145, and we'll have a total number.
[02:32:42.230 --> 02:32:43.790]  [SPEAKER_25]: 212-279-3400.
[02:32:44.310 --> 02:32:46.910]  [SPEAKER_25]: We still need as many calls as possible.
[02:32:47.610 --> 02:32:48.210]  [SPEAKER_25]: All right.
[02:32:48.410 --> 02:32:48.730]  [SPEAKER_25]: Good evening.
[02:32:48.810 --> 02:32:52.650]  [SPEAKER_25]: You're on the radio, 212-279-3407, if you want to be on the air.
[02:32:52.830 --> 02:32:53.270]  [SPEAKER_25]: Good evening.
[02:32:53.590 --> 02:32:56.490]  [SPEAKER_08]: I have a few serious questions for you.
[02:32:56.650 --> 02:32:57.090]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay.
[02:32:57.350 --> 02:32:57.630]  [SPEAKER_25]: Go ahead.
[02:32:57.790 --> 02:32:58.290]  [SPEAKER_08]: Radio off.
[02:32:58.410 --> 02:32:58.630]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay.
[02:32:59.610 --> 02:33:04.190]  [SPEAKER_08]: Number one, is the 2600 t-shirt all cotton?
[02:33:06.670 --> 02:33:08.010]  [SPEAKER_25]: I believe it is.
[02:33:08.090 --> 02:33:09.130]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yes, it is all cotton.
[02:33:09.490 --> 02:33:09.770]  [SPEAKER_08]: Okay.
[02:33:10.310 --> 02:33:13.730]  [SPEAKER_08]: Number two, a few weeks ago, you featured a scout.
[02:33:13.730 --> 02:33:21.350]  [SPEAKER_08]: So, it's like sort of like an opto-electronics, it scans frequencies, but it also allows you to receive them.
[02:33:21.570 --> 02:33:22.230]  [SPEAKER_25]: You know what they did?
[02:33:22.230 --> 02:33:24.550]  [SPEAKER_25]: They came out with a new scout in the last week.
[02:33:24.790 --> 02:33:25.010]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[02:33:25.130 --> 02:33:29.450]  [SPEAKER_25]: At the same exact price as the one I paid for my old scout, so I'm kind of peeved by that.
[02:33:29.690 --> 02:33:29.870]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah.
[02:33:30.010 --> 02:33:30.290]  [SPEAKER_25]: Question.
[02:33:30.450 --> 02:33:31.190]  [SPEAKER_08]: Could I ask you this?
[02:33:31.450 --> 02:33:31.570]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah.
[02:33:31.730 --> 02:33:34.650]  [SPEAKER_08]: Does it have a BNC plug on it?
[02:33:34.730 --> 02:33:36.750]  [SPEAKER_08]: Does the antenna come off and leave you a BNC?
[02:33:36.750 --> 02:33:39.270]  [SPEAKER_08]: Or what is it, the antenna built on?
[02:33:39.430 --> 02:33:39.870]  [SPEAKER_08]: Or does it...
[02:33:39.870 --> 02:33:41.770]  [SPEAKER_25]: No, the antenna does have a BNC connector.
[02:33:42.130 --> 02:33:44.710]  [SPEAKER_25]: The smart kind, not the stupid kind that falls out all the time.
[02:33:44.870 --> 02:33:45.110]  [SPEAKER_08]: All right.
[02:33:46.110 --> 02:33:49.330]  [SPEAKER_08]: I think I have a few spare cellular antennas.
[02:33:49.530 --> 02:33:55.510]  [SPEAKER_08]: I'll solder a... or crimp a BNC on, and you'll get it in your mailbox at...
[02:33:55.510 --> 02:33:56.490]  [SPEAKER_25]: Oh, cool.
[02:33:56.670 --> 02:33:57.010]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah, yeah.
[02:33:57.150 --> 02:33:58.910]  [SPEAKER_25]: Could always use a few extra antennas.
[02:33:59.150 --> 02:34:04.770]  [SPEAKER_08]: On a glass mount or a... or a elevated feed, you know, the one you drill a hole.
[02:34:04.770 --> 02:34:06.510]  [SPEAKER_08]: Do you have anything to drill a hole in?
[02:34:06.990 --> 02:34:08.430]  [SPEAKER_25]: Do I have anything to drill a hole in?
[02:34:08.610 --> 02:34:10.290]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, I don't know if I'm going to drill a hole in my scowl.
[02:34:10.390 --> 02:34:10.890]  [SPEAKER_25]: Is that what you're asking?
[02:34:11.030 --> 02:34:11.270]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay.
[02:34:11.490 --> 02:34:12.090]  [SPEAKER_08]: No, no, no.
[02:34:12.550 --> 02:34:15.630]  [SPEAKER_08]: No, I just try to decide which one to grab and put the connector on.
[02:34:15.790 --> 02:34:15.930]  [SPEAKER_13]: Yeah.
[02:34:16.730 --> 02:34:17.450]  [SPEAKER_08]: Let me see.
[02:34:18.470 --> 02:34:18.830]  [SPEAKER_08]: Question.
[02:34:20.390 --> 02:34:28.970]  [SPEAKER_08]: You know, one of the most nasty types of, you know, uses of telephones is these cellular phone things.
[02:34:29.310 --> 02:34:29.450]  [SPEAKER_13]: Mm-hmm.
[02:34:29.450 --> 02:34:34.750]  [SPEAKER_08]: I know there's like a common A and a B band and, you know, just the basic...
[02:34:34.770 --> 02:34:37.070]  [SPEAKER_08]: It's like 832 service.
[02:34:37.310 --> 02:34:44.430]  [SPEAKER_08]: But a friend of mine works for a company that designs for Motorola.
[02:34:44.950 --> 02:34:47.970]  [SPEAKER_08]: And what I've been trying to find out is I hear there's another band.
[02:34:48.170 --> 02:34:52.110]  [SPEAKER_08]: It should be easy to find out that only police uses it.
[02:34:52.230 --> 02:34:58.310]  [SPEAKER_08]: Do you know if that's within the cellular phone band or I heard it was just above it?
[02:34:58.310 --> 02:35:00.590]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, the police use 800 megahertz.
[02:35:00.850 --> 02:35:09.890]  [SPEAKER_25]: They don't use the same frequencies that the cellular phones use, but they use it, I believe it's just below, like, it's around the 850 range, I think.
[02:35:10.150 --> 02:35:10.350]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[02:35:10.350 --> 02:35:14.650]  [SPEAKER_25]: And supposedly that's supposed to be more secure.
[02:35:14.790 --> 02:35:19.670]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, one way it's more secure is by blocking it out and not allowing people to listen in on that.
[02:35:20.390 --> 02:35:20.730]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yeah.
[02:35:20.830 --> 02:35:24.410]  [SPEAKER_08]: The question is, is it within the 832 channels?
[02:35:24.550 --> 02:35:28.070]  [SPEAKER_08]: Because I think there's like 1,023 or more channels.
[02:35:28.250 --> 02:35:30.730]  [SPEAKER_08]: Is it within the usual 832 channels?
[02:35:30.730 --> 02:35:35.470]  [SPEAKER_25]: As far as, I mean, the cellular phone frequencies, I don't believe it is within that range.
[02:35:35.470 --> 02:35:37.010]  [SPEAKER_25]: I believe it's outside that range.
[02:35:37.150 --> 02:35:37.530]  [SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[02:35:37.530 --> 02:35:38.630]  [SPEAKER_25]: From what I understand.
[02:35:38.990 --> 02:35:53.870]  [SPEAKER_08]: Because the whole idea is that, you know, the police now have some super, essentially what they are is they're, you know, when you're in your home you have a right to listen to anything, but when you get in your car and actually go where the police are,
[02:35:53.990 --> 02:35:58.310]  [SPEAKER_08]: you know, committing crimes, they become, you know, the law thugs.
[02:35:58.470 --> 02:35:58.750]  [SPEAKER_25]: Right.
[02:35:59.050 --> 02:36:15.370]  [SPEAKER_08]: You know, they can do whatever they want to you, and I was thinking that there should be, you know, if you can hack anything, I think, you know, the cellular, the police part of the cellular phone should be the very first thing to be hacked into, you know?
[02:36:15.590 --> 02:36:15.850]  [SPEAKER_13]: Mm-hmm.
[02:36:15.930 --> 02:36:20.050]  [SPEAKER_08]: Because they're moving in on us and, you know, taking away all our personal freedoms.
[02:36:20.050 --> 02:36:27.110]  [SPEAKER_08]: You know, like New York State had, I disconnected my beeper when they came out with a dollar a month per beeper.
[02:36:27.250 --> 02:36:29.370]  [SPEAKER_08]: Not per line, but per beeper, you know?
[02:36:29.670 --> 02:36:30.950]  [SPEAKER_08]: Tax on a receiver.
[02:36:31.370 --> 02:36:31.590]  [SPEAKER_25]: Right.
[02:36:32.610 --> 02:36:44.890]  [SPEAKER_08]: You know, for the whole year and a half that they were collecting this super fund in New York State, and New Jersey never had it, you know, but Jersey had some things to make up for it, you know?
[02:36:45.290 --> 02:37:02.350]  [SPEAKER_08]: And, you know, it was the Communications Act of 1934 that you could listen to whenever you wanted to, you know, you know, basically the FCC when it comes to, when it comes to transmitting is horrible, you know, they're, you know, they're the regime.
[02:37:02.510 --> 02:37:19.730]  [SPEAKER_08]: When it came to receiving, the Communications Act of 1934 was a mixed blessing because it gave you total carte blanche to receive whatever you wanted, whoever, wherever, you know, there was, there was absolute, they cut the line in 1934.
[02:37:19.910 --> 02:37:23.150]  [SPEAKER_08]: They said, you can receive anything you want, any way you want it.
[02:37:23.470 --> 02:37:27.550]  [SPEAKER_08]: And all these new laws are against the federal law of the land.
[02:37:28.350 --> 02:37:30.610]  [SPEAKER_08]: All right, let me get you off before I get too boring, okay?
[02:37:30.670 --> 02:37:31.650]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay, thank you very much.
[02:37:33.230 --> 02:37:35.910]  [SPEAKER_25]: 212-279-3407 to be on the air.
[02:37:36.290 --> 02:37:44.450]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now, 212-279-3400 is our telephone number, the more important number right now, because we only have three minutes left.
[02:37:44.910 --> 02:37:48.610]  [SPEAKER_25]: We'd like to see a flurry of phone calls come in, so please call us now.
[02:37:48.710 --> 02:37:53.830]  [SPEAKER_25]: 212-279-3400 if you've been waiting for the last minute, waiting to see if we're going to offer something really, really amazing.
[02:37:53.950 --> 02:37:54.350]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, we're not.
[02:37:54.430 --> 02:37:56.570]  [SPEAKER_25]: We're just offering what we've already offered.
[02:37:56.570 --> 02:38:00.970]  [SPEAKER_25]: So, uh, that's, um, you can pledge any amount you want.
[02:38:00.970 --> 02:38:02.930]  [SPEAKER_25]: We take Visa, we take MasterCard.
[02:38:03.130 --> 02:38:10.650]  [SPEAKER_25]: If you pledge $75, you will get a 2,600, uh, subscription for a year and a soon-to-be-out-of-print t-shirt.
[02:38:11.430 --> 02:38:25.090]  [SPEAKER_25]: Uh, and also, if you pledge $100, you will get that same 2,600 subscription, but you will also get Masses of Deception, the hardcover book, which came out earlier this year, talking about some of America's most dangerous hackers.
[02:38:25.530 --> 02:38:26.290]  [SPEAKER_25]: Isn't that right, Fiber?
[02:38:26.490 --> 02:38:27.390]  [SPEAKER_21]: Oh, yeah, real dangerous.
[02:38:27.630 --> 02:38:27.750]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay.
[02:38:28.790 --> 02:38:31.410]  [SPEAKER_25]: In fact, you better get this book, or, uh...
[02:38:31.750 --> 02:38:33.690]  [SPEAKER_21]: We'll show you what some of that danger really is.
[02:38:33.690 --> 02:38:34.010]  [SPEAKER_21]: Yeah, we will.
[02:38:34.130 --> 02:38:34.470]  [SPEAKER_25]: We will.
[02:38:35.770 --> 02:38:36.630]  [SPEAKER_25]: I'm getting a message.
[02:38:37.590 --> 02:38:38.770]  [SPEAKER_25]: Do not threaten the listeners.
[02:38:38.950 --> 02:38:39.130]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay.
[02:38:39.350 --> 02:38:40.650]  [SPEAKER_25]: We won't do that anymore.
[02:38:42.390 --> 02:38:42.910]  [SPEAKER_25]: Good evening.
[02:38:43.070 --> 02:38:43.490]  [SPEAKER_25]: You're on the radio.
[02:38:43.670 --> 02:38:43.970]  [SPEAKER_09]: Hey, man.
[02:38:44.090 --> 02:38:44.990]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, here we are again.
[02:38:45.170 --> 02:38:45.390]  [SPEAKER_09]: Wow.
[02:38:45.550 --> 02:38:46.150]  [SPEAKER_09]: I'm back home.
[02:38:46.310 --> 02:38:46.950]  [SPEAKER_25]: You're back home?
[02:38:47.090 --> 02:38:47.650]  [SPEAKER_25]: Here in New York?
[02:38:47.810 --> 02:38:49.290]  [SPEAKER_09]: I'm in New York City, in Queens.
[02:38:49.490 --> 02:38:49.830]  [SPEAKER_09]: Oh, boy.
[02:38:50.210 --> 02:38:50.530]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay.
[02:38:51.350 --> 02:38:52.550]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, you're in Queens, though.
[02:38:53.330 --> 02:39:02.250]  [SPEAKER_09]: I just wanted to say that, um, when you make a call, like, instead of putting a quarter in a payphone to make a call to someone, you could just use the automated operator.
[02:39:02.350 --> 02:39:12.970]  [SPEAKER_09]: What you do is you make arrangements to someone, you'll call them, collect, and then when the automated operator says, I have to tell them to say your name, you just say the phone number at the payphone, and then they'll hang up and call you back at the payphone.
[02:39:14.110 --> 02:39:14.430]  Oh.
[02:39:14.850 --> 02:39:15.570]  [SPEAKER_21]: Well, yeah.
[02:39:15.950 --> 02:39:19.070]  [SPEAKER_21]: But, uh, yeah, we've known about that for years since that came out.
[02:39:19.110 --> 02:39:24.150]  [SPEAKER_25]: And not only that, people have been doing things like that, you know, and collect calls, uh, passing messages along very quickly.
[02:39:24.330 --> 02:39:25.170]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's, it's, it's kind of old.
[02:39:25.270 --> 02:39:26.050]  [SPEAKER_25]: Let me ask you a question.
[02:39:26.130 --> 02:39:29.550]  [SPEAKER_25]: You might, you might actually have the wherewithal to try this one out.
[02:39:29.850 --> 02:39:30.190]  [SPEAKER_25]: All right.
[02:39:30.250 --> 02:39:39.390]  [SPEAKER_25]: Let's say that you make a collect call to a payphone from another, not, no, I'm sorry, not a collect call, a regular phone call to a payphone from another payphone.
[02:39:39.390 --> 02:39:39.610]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay.
[02:39:39.890 --> 02:39:42.770]  [SPEAKER_25]: So it asks you to put in, say, 60 cents or whatever.
[02:39:42.990 --> 02:39:46.130]  [SPEAKER_25]: You put in the 60 cents, you call the other payphone, the person picks up.
[02:39:46.450 --> 02:39:46.850]  [SPEAKER_25]: All right.
[02:39:47.010 --> 02:39:54.770]  [SPEAKER_25]: At some point in time, the, the, the computer's going to come on and say, please deposit 25 more cents or whatever for, for the next however many minutes.
[02:39:55.730 --> 02:40:04.410]  [SPEAKER_25]: Now, supposing you go to the other payphone, that is the payphone that has been called, and you simply put a quarter in that payphone and it, it generates the red box tones.
[02:40:04.410 --> 02:40:11.210]  [SPEAKER_25]: Will those red box tones be picked up by the first payphone and will it think that you have in fact put in a quarter in that payphone?
[02:40:11.290 --> 02:40:12.550]  [SPEAKER_09]: I don't think that will work.
[02:40:12.850 --> 02:40:14.430]  [SPEAKER_09]: I, I try that.
[02:40:14.550 --> 02:40:16.210]  [SPEAKER_25]: Could you run out and try that for us?
[02:40:16.310 --> 02:40:17.670]  [SPEAKER_09]: I will try that one time.
[02:40:17.950 --> 02:40:19.030]  [SPEAKER_09]: Because if you are able...
[02:40:19.030 --> 02:40:26.890]  [SPEAKER_09]: And what I'd like to say is that when my phone was disconnected upstate at school, they had this left-in dial tone, but it was to another phone number.
[02:40:27.010 --> 02:40:27.530]  [SPEAKER_09]: It wasn't...
[02:40:28.610 --> 02:40:32.170]  [SPEAKER_25]: Oh, sounds like they just pulled your plug completely and just connected you to something else.
[02:40:32.170 --> 02:40:39.710]  [SPEAKER_25]: But you realize if you are able to succeed with that payphone to payphone thing, you will be in effect red boxing without a red box.
[02:40:40.090 --> 02:40:43.550]  [SPEAKER_25]: In fact, you'll be using the phone company to do it, which I think would be amazing.
[02:40:43.750 --> 02:40:45.050]  [SPEAKER_25]: I don't think it would work, to be honest.
[02:40:45.270 --> 02:40:47.430]  [SPEAKER_09]: They give you three-way calling when your phone's disconnected for some reason.
[02:40:47.850 --> 02:40:48.390]  [SPEAKER_25]: I'm sorry?
[02:40:48.590 --> 02:40:49.950]  [SPEAKER_09]: They give you three-way calling...
[02:40:49.950 --> 02:40:52.170]  [SPEAKER_25]: It's funny, we're talking about two totally different things at the same time, aren't we?
[02:40:52.390 --> 02:40:55.750]  [SPEAKER_09]: Okay, well, I just want to say that they give you three-way calling when your phone's disconnected.
[02:40:56.050 --> 02:40:57.190]  [SPEAKER_25]: All right, well, that's all too, isn't it?
[02:40:57.450 --> 02:40:59.130]  [SPEAKER_21]: I don't even think that works anymore.
[02:40:59.390 --> 02:41:01.890]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, don't forget, he was up in the North Pole or something.
[02:41:02.490 --> 02:41:03.850]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, no, I was in NYNEX.
[02:41:04.230 --> 02:41:07.610]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, yeah, so... NYNEX goes to some pretty remote areas.
[02:41:08.290 --> 02:41:13.610]  [SPEAKER_09]: Well, I just want to mention the new phones at Chemical Bank, but they do not let you make free phone calls anymore because they...
[02:41:13.610 --> 02:41:14.690]  [SPEAKER_25]: Because of you, that's why.
[02:41:15.130 --> 02:41:17.790]  [SPEAKER_25]: Because you mention it every week for a year on this radio program.
[02:41:17.950 --> 02:41:18.690]  [SPEAKER_09]: I want to describe them.
[02:41:18.830 --> 02:41:24.290]  [SPEAKER_09]: You pick it up, and it mutes the mount piece, and it dials the number automatically, and then it gives you back the mount piece.
[02:41:24.350 --> 02:41:25.550]  [SPEAKER_09]: It mutes also the Touch-Tone.
[02:41:26.250 --> 02:41:28.950]  [SPEAKER_09]: The Touch-Tone, it mutes on the mount piece until it dials.
[02:41:29.010 --> 02:41:29.650]  [SPEAKER_25]: How about that?
[02:41:29.650 --> 02:41:32.770]  [SPEAKER_09]: But you can unplug the phone and plug it back in after it dials.
[02:41:33.110 --> 02:41:35.690]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, Mr. Rebel, you have the last word tonight.
[02:41:35.690 --> 02:41:42.350]  [SPEAKER_25]: Since we're out of time, I want you to personally ask people to call in this last minute we have and pledge to this radio station.
[02:41:42.450 --> 02:41:42.830]  [SPEAKER_09]: Okay.
[02:41:44.050 --> 02:41:48.170]  [SPEAKER_09]: Everybody, if you like the information that I give out on this program...
[02:41:48.950 --> 02:41:50.530]  [SPEAKER_25]: No, we want people to call.
[02:41:50.830 --> 02:41:51.270]  [SPEAKER_25]: Please.
[02:41:51.530 --> 02:41:52.790]  [SPEAKER_09]: We want people to call...
[02:41:52.790 --> 02:41:53.230]  [SPEAKER_25]: Yes.
[02:41:53.590 --> 02:41:58.350]  [SPEAKER_09]: ...227-93400 at this last minute, and pledge anything you can.
[02:41:58.350 --> 02:42:00.090]  [SPEAKER_09]: And I'm going to pledge, actually.
[02:42:00.290 --> 02:42:02.590]  [SPEAKER_09]: I pledge myself to let everyone know.
[02:42:03.130 --> 02:42:03.650]  [SPEAKER_09]: And, uh...
[02:42:03.650 --> 02:42:07.550]  [SPEAKER_25]: So we can count on seeing the phone ring at least once when we disconnect with you.
[02:42:09.250 --> 02:42:09.610]  [SPEAKER_09]: Okay.
[02:42:09.810 --> 02:42:09.930]  [SPEAKER_09]: Good.
[02:42:09.990 --> 02:42:10.790]  [SPEAKER_25]: I'll look forward to that.
[02:42:11.330 --> 02:42:11.630]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay.
[02:42:11.730 --> 02:42:13.850]  [SPEAKER_25]: In fact, maybe I'll run into the other room just so I can get you a call.
[02:42:16.650 --> 02:42:17.110]  [SPEAKER_25]: Let's see.
[02:42:17.210 --> 02:42:18.610]  [SPEAKER_09]: I guess that's it.
[02:42:18.870 --> 02:42:19.090]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay.
[02:42:19.370 --> 02:42:20.290]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, um...
[02:42:20.290 --> 02:42:21.750]  [SPEAKER_25]: So far, I guess people are still dialing.
[02:42:22.350 --> 02:42:22.710]  [SPEAKER_25]: Uh...
[02:42:22.710 --> 02:42:25.210]  [SPEAKER_25]: But remember, dial fast or they'll time out on you.
[02:42:25.310 --> 02:42:26.950]  [SPEAKER_25]: 212-279-3400.
[02:42:27.150 --> 02:42:27.950]  [SPEAKER_25]: Thanks for calling.
[02:42:28.090 --> 02:42:29.030]  [SPEAKER_25]: Thanks for the information.
[02:42:29.430 --> 02:42:30.270]  [SPEAKER_25]: And, um...
[02:42:30.270 --> 02:42:31.730]  [SPEAKER_25]: Thanks, everybody, for being a part of this.
[02:42:31.870 --> 02:42:34.350]  [SPEAKER_25]: We did break the 2,000 mark by quite a bit, I'd say.
[02:42:34.510 --> 02:42:35.790]  [SPEAKER_25]: So I'm pretty happy with that.
[02:42:36.510 --> 02:42:36.870]  [SPEAKER_25]: Um...
[02:42:36.870 --> 02:42:37.790]  [SPEAKER_25]: Thanks, everybody, for calling.
[02:42:37.790 --> 02:42:42.650]  [SPEAKER_25]: And if you still want some of the special deals we're offering, please give us a call.
[02:42:42.790 --> 02:42:43.790]  [SPEAKER_25]: Every little bit counts.
[02:42:44.430 --> 02:42:49.370]  [SPEAKER_25]: We'll be back again next week with our regular show, which is, uh...
[02:42:49.370 --> 02:42:51.290]  [SPEAKER_25]: an hour in length from 10 to 11 p.m.
[02:42:51.790 --> 02:42:52.390]  [SPEAKER_25]: Robert Knight.
[02:42:52.590 --> 02:42:53.590]  [SPEAKER_25]: Is Robert Knight up next?
[02:42:54.410 --> 02:42:54.850]  [SPEAKER_25]: Or...
[02:42:54.850 --> 02:42:56.210]  [SPEAKER_25]: Well, we think he's up next.
[02:42:56.430 --> 02:42:56.810]  [SPEAKER_25]: Someone's...
[02:42:56.810 --> 02:42:57.430]  [SPEAKER_13]: I'm going to go next.
[02:42:58.250 --> 02:42:58.670]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay.
[02:42:59.010 --> 02:42:59.370]  [SPEAKER_25]: Something...
[02:42:59.370 --> 02:42:59.890]  [SPEAKER_25]: Something's coming.
[02:43:00.250 --> 02:43:00.690]  [SPEAKER_25]: Something...
[02:43:00.690 --> 02:43:00.870]  [SPEAKER_25]: Something...
[02:43:00.870 --> 02:43:01.290]  [SPEAKER_10]: Computer music.
[02:43:01.450 --> 02:43:02.150]  [SPEAKER_25]: Computer music.
[02:43:02.270 --> 02:43:02.670]  [SPEAKER_25]: All right.
[02:43:03.570 --> 02:43:04.010]  [SPEAKER_25]: Okay.
[02:43:04.190 --> 02:43:05.070]  [SPEAKER_25]: Enough computer talk.
[02:43:05.190 --> 02:43:06.190]  [SPEAKER_25]: Let's have some computer music.
[02:43:06.390 --> 02:43:07.530]  [SPEAKER_25]: We'll be back again next week.
[02:43:07.530 --> 02:43:08.810]  [SPEAKER_25]: This is Emmanuel Goldstein from Phiber Optik.
[02:43:08.830 --> 02:43:10.210]  [SPEAKER_25]: And everybody else, have a good night.