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The thing of the Titanic started life as a sort of response to what kind of piece of music would a conceptual piece of music be.
The factual information can be transformed into poetry.
The band were playing, if you like, on the ocean surface, and they continued to play until the moment, well, in fact, we don't know when they stopped, because they were certainly playing as the ship went down.
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This is an expanded edition of Off the Hook.
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Thank you.
And it's always fun.
It's been over, it's happened.
It's happened.
It has happened.
In fact, I think you and I have both have been down there a few times.
A new place downtown called the At Cafe.
We have the two people that, that started the At Cafe with us tonight.
Nick Barnes, Glenn McGinnis, welcome to Off the Hook.
Tell us something about where you got the idea to start a place like this and what it's
all about.
Well, thank you.
Well, we worked on it for a while and maybe hadn't thought of it about three years ago.
about three years ago but uh but have certainly been thinking about it for the past uh year or so
brought it into existence and opened it up to the public uh just about three weeks ago now
so we have 13 systems down there we're running a t1 into the building actually uh force 9x to do
a little work rip up the street on third avenue and draw it draw some uh fiber into the building
so you had to go through 9x too there's no no no choice unfortunately but at least we beat
them up back a little bit uh we uh we can run uh currently 183 t's into the building uh haven't
quite uh hooked that many in yet 183 but uh wow that's what we were told of course uh 9x likes to
throw different numbers at you so we'll we'll see when we start uh ordering them uh at any rate uh
we have uh unix systems down there on the floor we have uh power max we have uh pcs they're all
they're all uh live 24 7 unfortunately we're not open 24 hours yet hopefully soon if you guys uh
that would get your butts down there that would be great yeah so so uh we're running see you see me
which is video conferencing people can be getting psyched about that on the on the max and uh as well
as uh having a liquor license and uh pouring beers and uh shots as well so uh well now that's where we
the see you see me was interesting because uh we were in the cafe the other day and we were watching
uh uh people from around the world but we were also watching people from from different parts of
the world just kind of uh um coming in over the screen and people talking back and forth to them
i mean i know see you see me has been around for for a little bit of time and a lot of people are
playing with it but i've never been in a situation where it's kind of like you know a place where a
lot of people are at the same time and everyone's just sort of talking back and forth i mean
you're sitting upstairs looking down at somebody but you can see them on your computer screen and
you can say hello to them and they can say hello back to you no need for all this uh face-to-face
stuff and you can do the same thing to somebody in belgium at the same exact moment or the person
in belgium can introduce you to the person at the other table exactly exactly so uh moments like that
are i guess uh pretty pretty commonplace now although when did you guys actually open uh as i said just
about uh three weeks ago on the 25th i haven't thrown the uh grand opening bash uh yet but when we do i'm
sure uh you are all definitely invited uh uh yeah and as far as uh see you see me stories they are
beginning to happen more frequently uh seal was actually on the other day the musician and uh we
had a interesting event down there with uh a couple of uh extreme fans uh showing their extreme
affection over see you see me uh to seal uh-huh and also to the rest of the uh restaurant so what
kind of crazy things happening all the time what kind of response are you getting from from the
neighborhood from uh the media from people like that people have been uh people have been pretty
positive about it uh we're really have all got our hearts in it you know trying to trying to offer
the best possible hardware the best possible connectivity um obviously it's a fight all the
time with all the different sort of links in the chain but it's been going pretty good uh we're
trying to serve some good food and uh some good drink at the same time and uh it's been great we
have a great space it's in a beautiful building we uh have some projection systems going so that you
can uh actually see huge images whether it's movies animation or actually seeing the internet itself
uh and uh the the crowd has been very interesting we've had people all the way from the un to people
just around the street you know being very supportive coming back uh as well as uh you're
you're in the old uh saint mark's books place on saint mark's is that right exactly trying to keep up
the church the highbrow tradition of uh 12 saint mark's i guess uh-huh uh but yeah actually it was
before it was saint mark's bookstore it was actually a bar so we're also also bringing bringing those
spirits back to life what was it before saint mark's books what was it uh nick i think it was a hungarian
just a hungarian local east village hungarian bar actually really i didn't know that previous to
that was the uh german american shooting club it's the building was built in no kidding yeah the
german american shooting club yeah all right those brings back some memories were they germans and
americans shooting at each other or were they shooting with each other it's interesting for the east
village to have that uh there so uh-huh well that's uh that is something so now it's uh now it's the
at cafe any trouble with wired over using the at sign no no no no okay that's good that's good
they wanted to trademark that i heard um really really yeah so now what has been your biggest
crisis so far as far as uh technical things you've fallen off the net a few times actually i'd say our
biggest crisis is when we had a main pipe break over our computer room and had about 80 gallons of
steaming water oh dear down around all the main systems well that's gotta hurt the day of opening
it was uh it was interesting but uh human human shields can deflect water which they did very
well for about an hour now you have you have max and you have uh unix systems you said what what kind
of unix systems are you running just we have linux free unix baby um running uh actually just on one
system right now we have some dumb terminals uh that are just right onto our main uh which is also we're
running linux downstairs a combination of linux and uh solaris uh and we hope to get more of them
up up quickly just because i mean they're obviously such nice systems to work with with the multitasking
now do the waitresses have to know how to kill a process or absolutely really so absolutely so people
serving you food are actually um they they know about this kind of thing the staff has been phenomenal
they're it's a great it's great crew and it just shows uh how much interest is really out there
and uh because they're they're they're they're a great great bunch of people as well as being very
knowledgeable about the internet and in addition to the to the wait staff we also have uh computer
people just dedicated to helping people out with the net on the floor all the time how how did you
reach out to these people how did you find them through uh through both both both over over the net
and uh through through more conventional means you know just through the paper and uh and word of mouth
really the internet did prove to be a great tool though and finding and finding people as well have
you guys been on the net for a while before this oh yeah definitely i mean i just i i was i was at
cornell before i sort of got into this and i was on you know from from when i uh started it at school
i had i'd been doing the bulletin board thing through high school and uh just just the internet as
for so many people you notice how a lot of these seem to spring from bulletin boards escape got started
from a bulletin board and and you guys had bulletin board access or experience before that i think
for people who were were checking out bulletin boards um way back when that uh that it's very
obvious it's just i mean it's almost it's just like a giant giant uh much more obviously than a
bulletin board much more to it obviously i don't want to make that comparison but but the roots are
certainly there just as like you can uh see see the history and the evolution of moves all the way back to
to zork you know and uh that's sort of yeah view of things i guess so now what do you have planned
for the future what kinds of uh expansions um expansions can't really grow well can you can't
really grow in that space right it's really uh well with uh the the the virtue of rich uh virtual space
right it's sort of unlimited uh we've got plenty of room to cram systems in and as i said it's a nice
big space for so plenty of people can get on down there and do some drinking hang on the computers
okay that's that brings up an interesting point now people drinking and using computers you think
that's a that's a good mix or uh definitely yeah definitely a great people become a little more
creative or a little more social yeah absolutely absolutely you don't see computers as as taking
away from people's uh social life at all i have always adding um uh additional technology as as
as an addition to myself and to others certainly i mean uh i see it as very empowering empowering i
see the technology is very empowering to the individual if we if we use it correctly and if we
can keep the internet free and uh relatively uh uh uh free flowing and and not jammed up uh and and keep it
growing that i think it can be a very empowering thing for for all of us as as individuals as opposed
to a more conforming government system and a more uh i think a society that would like to to see us or
the powers that be would like to see us um conform to certain standards i think the internet is a
incredibly powerful tool to fight that and to to remain independent yeah that that is it exactly in
fact uh i i see the authorities kicking themselves for not getting a handle on this quicker so that
they could be yeah it's too late because uh the pandora's box has been opened we've had a taste of
it and i don't think we're going to just let it go like this and uh it's it's good to see you guys are
uh that you seem to have the right spirit about it all one of the biggest questions though i get
when i tell people about this place is um uh yeah you have the computers right there on the table
while people spill beer and the and the keyboard what do you do and how do you how do you prevent
things like that uh you know how do you mix food and and computers and and all that uh knock on wood
uh things have been going very well we haven't had any hardware failures yet uh we've definitely had
some bad spills and uh i've really tried to place the systems out of the way and spent uh we we've all
spent a lot of time really trying to design the place to to withstand shock uh and we'll certainly
continue to add things to prevent uh any sort of damage but i mean the keyboards we poured beer
straight into them and cracked them open and put them under the faucet and let hung them up to dry
and they're fine you sound it sounds like you've done all this intentionally right yeah absolutely
got it kind of got a plan for those uh late night parties uh-huh sounds great well um tell us something
about your your provider fly.net is that is that your provider or is that your well that's us that's
you fly.net i mean that's why we we drew the uh the fiber down to the building to make sure that we had
uh the capacity to to to provide service um that's something that we're looking at now when we when
we came up with the uh the whole idea and concept it was very it's very important uh to us to provide
as i said the best hardware that we possibly could and the best connectivity to to find a really uh nice
space a great space uh a great physical space and then provide a great virtual space through through uh
the best equipment that we could put together and it seemed to us that we would be the freest to
provide that by creating our own service thus fly.net uh so so just like escape.com uh we we have the
capabilities in the restaurant to do to to uh do all those different things as well as hopefully get get
customers dialing in so that they can take advantage of the physical space and then go home and still take
advantage of of the virtual space of our systems that that i think there is a lot to be gained by
being able to go in work on a t1 at t1 access speeds be able to keep your stuff there and then go home dial
in and and and and use it from home as well so you'll be providing accounts for people to to keep their
stuff on in the not too distant future baby great so right now right now it's just pretty much guest access
absolutely but we're we're definitely um letting letting uh the the the good and the proud in in uh
right away to sort of test out the system and beat it up a little bit yeah well that's that's actually
a very smart move letting people like us in first so that we can we can break everything and and show
you what's what what's wrong with it because uh has security been a big concern as far as starting
this project oh oh definitely uh people like to i mean keeping you up nights and making you worry a lot
um we try not to worry too much but we're we we i mean you had father optic walk through the doors i
mean did you did you get a little nervous oh my god we we tried to uh run over and uh get him a beer
as quickly as possible but uh but no we've tried to really be we've tried to really be open and make
it so clear to people that they're really welcome to do pretty much damn well what they please
through um through our systems i guess i shouldn't say that uh with without uh limitations
but that it's really about we're we're very much a uh open system and that we really have i don't
think that much of interest to to to mess or to mess around with and hopefully that that people will
see the advantages of of uh just coming in and and and uh making themselves known and then taking
advantage of the resources because that's certainly uh less of a pain in the ass do you expect to see
more places like this opening up i think it's inevitable i think it's uh it's obvious to us all that
the technology is growing so fast that that that uh that this is this this will soon not even be
something for the press this will just be commonplace every day it's just a matter of access this is to
me it's just a very logical extension uh uh to have it in a in a public place where you can come in and
and uh share it all around i think we're going to start seeing it right out on the streets i i saw
something like this a couple of years ago in california they had some in in street cafes but they
weren't really tied into the net and they were kind of clumsy and slow and the most you could do
is talk to somebody down the street maybe if they happen to be sitting there at that moment
uh no see you see me of course it didn't exist then so it wasn't really their fault right uh but no
access to the net but you guys have blatant access you're right there on the net you're you can go into
irc you can mail somebody something you can tell net places you can go on the world wide web you can do all
that that's uh you know for me that's that's really amazing to be able to just walk into a place and do
that and um i think that's you know that's that's really something something good okay so um any other
details you want to give out uh when you guys open we are we're open as again we're on 12 st mark's
between second and third uh you can see astral place from our doorstep uh and you can see our giant
at flag hanging out there uh that uh we are we are open during the week from 11 to 12 we're
we're willing to stay open if the people are there you don't you're not just open for an hour you're
open from 11 in the morning until 12 okay i just wanted to make sure you weren't being overly cautious
that's right and okay uh we uh on the weekend that's too early you know that absolutely you
got to stay open later than midnight i think that i think that that actually should be adjusted right
now i think that's more 11 to 2 on the weekdays 11 to 4 on the weekend you just adjusted the time
right now okay fine for you for you listeners and for tonight and for tonight we're hoping to have a
little bit of a party for you guys down there tonight and the listeners please come down uh anything
of course to support wbai that sounds like fun that sounds like a lot of fun so maybe we'll uh we'll pop on
down there afterwards uh maybe we'll even come down after the 2600 meetings and then you really
see a mob of of people come on down brothers uh you have a phone number where you want to give out
for people to get more information certainly yes at 212-979-5439 you can get get most of the
information you want from that number and and of course www.fly.net as well as info at fly.net okay
and that's the at cafe 12 uh saint mark's place in new york the first of uh what we hope are many
such establishments um providing access to the net as well as uh as well as food and drink
it's uh it's the future coming right at you thanks very much for uh nick barnes and uh glenn
mcginnis for being with us tonight and um that's um just another example of what's uh how things are
changing we sort of we sort of saw this coming at one point but uh here it is pretty amazing so
we're here at wbai again uh taking your pledges at 212-279-3400 we have another special offer that
we're going to be giving you in just a few minutes so stay tuned but if you want to call up and show
your support in the interim we have uh we don't have any more ppp accounts we're we're done with that but
we do have the 2600 subscription and the 2600 t-shirt soon to be uh soon to be out of print 2600 t-shirt
for a pledge of 75 dollars 212-279-3400 give us a call while this music is playing thank you
so
Thank you.
And it's 6 minutes after 10 o'clock.
You're tuned to WBAI New York.
The program is off the hook.
We're on until 11.45 tonight.
Hoping to raise some money for the radio station
to keep things going here so we can continue
to bring you news of happenings in the world of cyberspace
and individual freedom, liberty, that kind of thing.
All that cool stuff that we've grown used to.
This is Emanuel Goldstein here with FiberOptic,
and, you know, we've got some pretty exciting news,
which we want to update you on.
I don't know if it's exciting, scary, or what have you,
but do you know that encryption has pretty much been outlawed?
Yeah, it's kind of shocking, don't you think?
Outlawed.
Measures to observe the law in development, production,
sale, and use of encryption devices
and provision of services in encrypting information.
This is a law dated April 3, 1995.
Now, what it does is it restricts the use
of encryption technologies by government agencies,
state-owned, private, and foreign entities,
and complements a rapidly growing body
of law publicly regulating activities
which previously were the exclusive domain
of government intelligence,
various national security agencies,
and of the military.
The edict, which just came down pretty recently,
bans the development, import, sale, and use
of unlicensed encryption devices
as well as of protected technological means
of storage, processing, and transmission of information
and directs the Federal Counterintelligence Service
and other enforcement agencies to ensure compliance
and to prosecute violators.
It's pretty scary.
Did any of you know that encryption has been outlawed?
Well, it has been.
Look at this.
I mean, it's what it says.
The edict designates the Federal Agency
of Government Telecommunications and Information
attached to the Office of the President
as the authority responsible for the review
of applications and issuance of licenses.
Now, in accordance with this statute,
this organization headed by a Director General
reports directly to the President
and is responsible for the security
of government communications
as well as for intelligence operations
in connection with encrypted and coded information.
They also have a research and development branch,
the Academy of Cryptography, several Army units,
government communications core, radio surveillance,
engineering detachments.
Now, within its jurisdiction,
this organization can issue orders and instruction
which are mandatory for all government
and private agencies and companies.
They issue licenses for encryption activities
in accordance with internal regulations
and pursuant to the government decree
on licensing of certain types of activities
which sets forth general licensing guidelines
for competent government agencies.
Well, I guess there's one other detail
I should point out
as far as what this law means to you.
It happened in Russia.
It didn't happen here,
but it's awfully close
because this is something that came down,
I'm convinced, a lot of people seem to be convinced,
as a result of FBI influence overseas.
In other words, we're kind of crusading
to various other countries in the world
saying you guys really should protect yourselves,
take control of Cryptography
before your citizens do,
and that way you'll have some semblance of control.
It's a scary thing.
I mean, it's really kind of disturbing
to see this happening.
You might say, yeah, it's Russia,
you know, okay, things happen in Russia,
but Russia is supposed to be moving towards democracy.
There's been a lot of talk in this country
about things that are going to be happening here.
A lot of people see what happened in Russia
very, very recently, within the last month,
as something indicative of what could happen here
in the very near future.
Barbara, you're the one that spotted this.
What do you think?
Yeah, I actually spotted the initial occurrence
when Boris Yeltsin formed this,
I don't know if you want to call it a task force,
but at least a government organization
known as F-A-G-T-I,
and they're supposed to actually enforce
the unauthorized and unlicensed use of encryption.
And not very long after that,
the director of the FBI, Mr. Free,
ironically...
Isn't that something?
Isn't that something?
His name is Free.
Yeah.
I think that's just incredible.
He testified before Congress,
saying that, from what I can make out of it,
it's almost as if to say
that the digital telephony proposal
just isn't enough.
It's not enough that we can wiretap
any phone line we want to.
I saw him.
I was watching C-SPAN,
I was watching those hearings,
and they were pretty frightening,
because, basically,
after the Oklahoma City bombing,
he said the biggest problem
was people communicating with impunity
on the Internet using encryption.
We have to do something.
We have to address this problem.
That's a problem.
People communicating freely is a problem.
So that's a problem that he thinks that's a problem.
That's what I think.
Now, here's an article from Brock Meeks,
one of our favorite people,
because he's always on top of these things.
And this will give you an idea
of where the situation is going,
in this country, anyway.
Jacking in from the narco-terrorist
encryption port,
Brock Meeks with his CyberWire dispatch.
The other shoe has dropped several times.
In the political backlash
and emotional fallout
of the bombing of the Federal Building
in Oklahoma City,
FBI Director Louis Free
has begun to wage his own private war
on the use of private encryption schemes.
According to administration sources,
several different proposals
are now being discussed
on how to implement a policy
of government-mandated,
government-certified encryption.
Does it sound familiar?
Sounds like what I just read from Russia.
The most hard line of these proposals
would outlaw the public's ability
to choose an encryption scheme
which the government couldn't break.
Under the authority of a court order.
Free has left no doubts
about his intentions.
Not satisfied with the proposal
he successfully rammed
through Congress last year,
the bill that gives law enforcement agencies
easy wiretap access
to digital conversations
at a cost of $50 million
in taxpayer money.
That's the digital telephony bill.
His next target is private encryption.
During an appropriations hearing
May 11th, Free told a congressional panel
we're in favor of strong encryption,
robust encryption.
The country needs it.
Industry needs it.
We just want to make sure
we have a trapdoor.
I'm sorry.
It's just so funny.
We want strong encryption
as long as it's not strong.
Oh, boy.
Okay, we just want to make sure
we have a trapdoor and key
under some judge's authority
where we can get there
if somebody is planning a crime.
That's incredible.
You know, nobody would have ever
caught Timothy McVeigh.
He didn't use the net.
He didn't use encryption
at all.
It didn't make a difference.
So all of this
is kind of a moot point.
It wouldn't have applied
to this case.
You can still blow up buildings
and do all kinds
of terrorist things
without communicating
over the net.
So it's obviously
that's not the point.
Anyway, let's continue
with the article.
That means an end
to private,
non-government encryption
which doesn't have keys
the government can use.
Private encryption schemes
allow a person
to scramble
an electronic message
that if intercepted
by another person
that if intercepted
by an unintended party
renders it unreadable.
These scrambling programs
are useful
to a wide range
of people and interests
including researchers
who want to keep
their proprietary
breakthroughs safe
from prying eyes
to corporations
sending trade secrets
to a distant office
across the net
to ordinary folks
sending a steamy
love letter
to a lover.
But these same
encryption programs
are being used
by terrorists
and international
drug traffickers
as well
claims FBI Director Free
and that makes
private encryption
schemes
a threat
to national security.
But Free's
crusade
against encryption
has been
enjoined
by members
of the Justice
Department
with the gleeful
back alley
goading
the nation's
top spook group
the National Security
Agency.
And when it
comes right down
to it
your privacy rights
don't stand
a snowball's chance
in hell
of outweighing
pictures of dead
babies
It's really
incredible
some of the
things that
they say here
one of them
is that
they actually
think that
criminals
here's a part
here
why would
criminals
knowingly use
a device
like the
clipper chip
that they
know the
government
could easily
tap
because
criminals
are stupid
was the
FBI's
party line.
The FBI
did not resolve
the encryption
problem however
according to an
FBI source
several plans
are in the works
the source
refused to
detail any
specific plan
but added
let's just say
everything is
on the table
does that
include
outlawing
private
encryption
schemes
I said
everything
the source
said.
I don't know
about you
but
that makes
me feel
kind of
afraid doesn't
it?
It really
concerns me
greatly
that something
like that
could just
kind of
slip through
and no one
really seems
to know
very much
about it
as far as
the average
citizen
who
may or may
not have
heard about
encryption
certain
ultimately
will see
the benefits
in it
and it's a
shame that
it's possible
that by
the time
they realize
that it
might be
illegal
here's
something
interesting
an NSA
source
when questioned
about his
agency's
role in
the process
was reluctant
to speak
he did
say that
Clipper
is
pretty
scary
when you think
of it
except for the
rise of an
offshore
black market
encryption
trade
the administration
is hoping
the public
will buy
off the fact
that one
is private
industry holding
the keys
not government
agencies
two
the availability
of choice
among several
different
vendors will
squash
there will
have to be
a black
market
the FBI
has already
gone around
the world
preaching the
evils of
private
encryption
trying to
get other
law enforcement
groups to
push for
outlawing
such
programs
in their
own
countries
and they
already
have a
convert
Russia
that
and i think it's the first thing you see we make sure people see things like this uh... and download and spread it around so people know about this
that's probably the best thing we can do
right now if you want to contact brock he's a source of information of all sorts
his address is brock b-r-o-c-k at well
dot com
you know
the well is changing their name
from well dot s-f dot c-a dot u-s to well dot com for their uh... official name
the other one will still work but i just got a note saying that they're going to be uh...
it's about time
is it
i kinda like that i mean why is it that every other country has to put their uh... you know their
their two-letter acronym at the end and we don't you know i think everything everything should be dot u-s if it's truly an international
international uh... type of thing
well that noise that you hear in the background is uh... the sound of slint as they fade away
and i want to thank them for providing some backup uh...
that's why we talked about encryption thank you guys you can go home now
thank you
alright
that's uh... that's pretty much what's going on there now we have a story a story of uh...
is it encryption or is it scanners or what it's actually a story referring to scanners
okay who are you first of all this is master chemist
master chemist okay we'll put your test tubes away we'll put those away
yes
alright
well i was actually uh...
interested in seeing what the actual story was and trying to get a scanner i'd heard all these stories so
thought i'd actually see what's going on
walked into one of the tri-state area's larger
electronics
centers and i asked them if i could have a uh...
uniden
barakat
two two zero xlp
and they asked me first question out of their mouth was why do you want this one because it happened to be one of their most
expensive models
and i was like well i'm interested in scanning and they were like well we have several models that you know for a young guy
well actually he said
several models for a young
for a young boy such as yourself
and now being you know over six feet tall i kind of get the feeling i don't give that image but still
he said he had several models that were a lot cheaper and would serve the same function
and i told him i was interested in getting somewhere in the eight hundred range and he immediately looked at me
as if i'd committed a crime
and so
things concluded and i purchased the uh...
bc two twenty xlp
took it home
and part of one of the reasons why i finally did was all over the box
it was written that
this scanner receives the eight hundred public service range
so i was kind of excited about that but
no such luck
so
getting it home on the first couple pamphlets
this scanner receives the eight hundred public service range
then uh... reading through it
there was small print on the last page that said this scanner will not pick up cellular phone conversation
well now that seems like a contradiction there
that is very true
so playing with the scanner i realized that it blocked out all ranges from eight sixty eight point zero zero
to eight ninety point zero zero
which i really found quite disturbing so then i called technical support
which is open twenty four hours a day at our good friends at uniden
and i asked her if there was any reason why my scanner wouldn't pick up between those two ranges
and she told me that it was completely illegal to try and
get anything within those two ranges
she's telling me because they were
reserved for cellular phone use
and i said yes but your product has on the box
that it covers completely from fifty to nine hundred megahertz
and she said well
that one area is blocked out
for the safety of yourself and for those using cellular telephone
did she really say for the safety of yourself?
yes she did
she told me that to ask any additional questions
that for my own information i may want to be aware that i am asking illegal questions
how can you ask illegal questions?
i speak of truth
oh boy
well i don't think they're speaking of truth there
the sad issue is
in relation to an article that was in twenty six hundred
which obviously the people at uniden aren't aware of
the issue of harmonics
that adding twenty one point four to any signal you catch
that would say maybe be in
the eight sixty eight to eight ninety range
you can actually hear the echo
of what's actually being said
so the truth is that the Barakat 220 XLT does not
truly block out all
cellular phone conversations
and i just i found it quite angry that i wasn't able to get that range
well you know there's one thing that i've noticed over the past week or so
and that's i was looking at some scanner ads
in various magazines
such as popular communications, monitoring times, things like that
and you know how they said when they passed this law
that they were going to make it illegal to
manufacture radios that could get in the eight hundred megahertz range
well it seems to have changed a bit
now it's
if you look at the radios yeah they do block those
but they say that
eight hundred to nine hundred megahertz
is reserved for government use only
now that's not that's not how they how they worded the law
when they originally passed this thing
they said it was illegal to listen
now apparently if you're a government employee
it's legal for you to listen
only government employees can listen to cellular phone calls
now what is this really disturbing for me is that
all over the box
was written clear as day
this device will cover the entire
eight hundred range
it said actually i don't want to misquote them
it says this device will cover
the eight hundred public service range
and it was written on the box
it was written on the sides of the box
and it was written in the manual
well it's probably that public service is how they're getting away with it
public service area is probably not
where the cellular phone calls are
because a number of agencies do use eight hundred megahertz
for various things
not cellular phone calls
but
it's still kind of deceptive
because
you go in there thinking you're going to get something
but
i would say to people
looking to buy something like that
it's really not possible anymore
we were talking about this for a couple of years actually
and it's finally happened
it's
virtually impossible for you to get
a scanner that will get cellular phone calls
in this country
now you can go to canada
and you can
you can buy one there
i don't know if they block other frequencies
they might
i know other countries block certain other frequencies
in england you can't get the police at all
and who knows what frequencies they use
you know they may use
rtv channels for
police frequencies over there for all we know
if it's in the air it should be free
that's logic
you see you're injecting logic into this
when it comes to making laws and things like that
i don't know
it's not that easy to assume that
we're coming to some pretty weird times here
we're talking about scanners gets you in trouble
and
everything is blocked
but
one thing that i think will
will overcome this is ingenuity
figuring out a way to bypass the system
and
hopefully every scanner can be bypassed in some way
i think it's interesting to note that
all you die hard folks out there
that still have your old television sets
before the whole cable ready era
you'd have to turn them in
all those old tv sets
that still go up to channel 83
on the UHF band
you could tune into the cellular telephone range
you know i've never been able to get that to work
i've tried that
oh i've gotten it to work easily
maybe it's a tv set
you don't need any special antenna or anything
if you're in the city
you could use the old fashioned
it was a little circular
it was like a piece of wire bent in a circle
on the back of the tv set
and you could switch somewhere between
channel 70 and 83
you can fine tune
and you can pick up cellular telephone conversations
with no problem at all
i have something
but it is illegal to do that
it is illegal to do this
very illegal to do that
unbelievable what we're telling people here
not that we're telling people
how to listen to cellular phone calls
in fact we're telling them
it's illegal to turn your tv set
and hear something
it's insane
i don't know
i feel like i'm going into fantasy world here
one thing
when i was looking at that tv set
i did notice a lot of weird UHF channels
that we get up here
like there's a 3D channel
there's a korean channel
there's all kinds of
yeah there's a 3D channel
that actually comes from
stevens institute in new jersey
uh huh
that's kind of neat
yeah
i owe that to looking for cellular phone calls
but there's all kinds of wacky tv stations out there
that don't get listed anywhere
so you might want to explore for those too
so yeah that's the latest on scanners
they're kind of elusive
and we're open to hear what people have to say
about their experiences
ok now to update people on kevin mitnick
again to update you on our phone number
remember we're here to raise money tonight
212-279-3400
we have a special deal
we're going to be getting to
in just a couple of minutes
we're up to 1350 on our total
which is good
but we need to keep those calls coming in
i'm going to present you with some information
and fiber i'd like you to listen to this
because i don't think you've heard this yet
and this is something i only just got
a couple of days ago
this has to do with
with what happened
before kevin was caught
in fact this has to do with what happened
at the very very beginning
alright this is probably having to do with
why he was on the run in the first place
remember we keep asking these questions
they keep saying he violated probation
but no one knows why
alright this is a document
the united states vs kevin david mitnick
respectfully presenting petition for action of court
for cause as follows
it is alleged that the above mentioned supervised releasee
has violated the terms and conditions to wit
1. having previously been instructed
regarding the special conditions
prohibiting engaging in any illegal
or unauthorized access
into any computers or telecommunication devices
on august 7th 1992
mr mitnick participated in the unauthorized access
of pacific bell computers confidential voice mail system
this was accomplished through the unauthorized use
of confidential and personal passwords
of pacific bell telephone company security investigators
who along with local authorities
have been investigating mr mitnick's employer
at the time tel-tech investigations
2. the offender had previously been instructed
regarding the special condition
prohibiting him from associating with
or being in the company of any person or persons
known to have engaged in the illegal
or unauthorized access of computers
or telecommunication devices
the offender violated this condition
beginning on a date unknown
and continuing to at least september 29th 1992
as he maintained association with one lewis dupain
mr dupain had been convicted of
violation of 182 slash 502 penal code
conspiracy to commit computer fraud
on april 2nd 1982
records reflect that mr mitnick
was a juvenile co-conspirator in this offense
for which a petition was requested
and sustained against the offender
for violation of 502c penal code computer fraud
and 459 penal code burglary
on june 25th 1981
what do you think of that?
well that's pretty interesting
he was basically working for a private investigator
it sounds to me like he had some sort of a job
with a private eye
and the private eye was under investigation
therefore kevin was under investigation for that
it seems a little murky here
using voicemail systems
logging into someone's voicemail account
again, where's the proof?
how did they know it was actually him doing this?
ok, we're talking about
logging into a voicemail system
which presumably was using a default password
which I wouldn't be surprised
and they don't really go into detail
as to what it was
they pretty much classify these crimes all the same way
you enter a mailbox once
even by accident
you enter a default password and say
hey, it works
or you stalk somebody and you enter that password
every single day for their entire lives
they pretty much classify it the same way
he illegally entered a voicemail system
that's the whole basis
for saying that his
probation has been violated
for making him become a fugitive
for him being on the run for years
for him having this nationwide front page manhunt
going on
and eventually his capture earlier this year
and god only knows
what kind of prison sentence
he's eventually going to wind up with
but this apparently is where it all began
and you know
I kind of thought it would be something
trivial
and this certainly seems to fit into that
I don't see anything
any real smoking gun there
I intend to look into this a little bit more
and see just what was going on
but people do this kind of thing all the time
even if it's proven
that he was doing that kind of thing in the first place
perhaps his employer was doing this kind of thing
and he was just employed by somebody
not knowing what they were up to
there's all kinds of possibilities
he is still by the way
in North Carolina
we're waiting for verification
of the address we have for him
and hopefully we'll be able to provide that to people
in the weeks ahead
so that's pretty much it
as far as that goes
Now was Kevin banned from using all computers initially?
No he wasn't
obviously he couldn't have been
because it's very difficult to
get through life not using a computer at all
I know he was banned from using a modem
but again
that ended at the end of his probation
which was I believe
in 1992
and from what I understand
from what I hear
and this has not yet been verified
they knocked on his door two hours after his probation
had ended
two hours and this was at about two o'clock in the morning
mind you because probation ended at midnight
and he had already left
he somehow knew they were going to do that
he always expressed a fear
I remember we had a friend of his on the air
a month or so ago
who said that Kevin had told him
that he had the feeling that
a minute before his probation was up
they would get him on something
well it wasn't quite that it was very close though
they were after him
they were looking for something to get him on
and they did
so that's being repeated in many places
in many different ways
we have the Kevin Poulsen story
which still has not completely worked itself out
and we're going to be here
hopefully telling you all about them
in the weeks and months ahead
but we need your help to do that
let's first of all thank the people
that brought us up to where we are now
we want to thank
hang on first I have to make sure that they want to be thanked
sometimes they check off a box here
that says don't thank me
I want to thank Tom from East Rockaway
for his generous donation
Margaret from Brooklyn
Julio
from Maroneck, New York
Maroneck is one heck of a place
you know there's this
I don't know if it's from Maroneck
but there's this lady that does a TV show up there
called Kaleidoscope
have you ever seen it? It's a cable TV show
she's incredible
if anyone out there knows what I'm talking about
you'd do well to tape this show
and send me copies
we also want to thank Carl from Brooklyn
for his very generous donation
and
Tim from New York, New York
right here in town
this is a neat one
Catherine from Springfield, New Jersey
Springfield, New Jersey
that's always good to hear from
that part of our listening range
thank you for your donation
and Chris from Dover
Dover being the site
of the former private sector BBS
2600's first
bulletin board system
and I want to thank Chris from Dover for his donation
and there's a bunch more
I hope
calling in right now
212-279-3400
we have a special deal
now
this is kind of an interesting deal actually
because it involves a lot of us
in various ways
a couple of months ago
was it a couple of months ago
when this thing came out?
yeah it was
seems like forever
that a certain book came out
a certain book called Masters of Deception
that's right
Masters of Deception
we've got a bunch of copies of this
a bunch of copies lying around
this is a book with fiber optic in it
now I should point out that
this book was met with mixed reviews
in the hacker community
and to attest to that
you could sort of say that Josh Quitner
and Michelle Sotala's
phone numbers were forwarded
to various parts of the country
by angry hackers at one point
in fact that was even written about in Newsday
and that would indicate that certain people
weren't very happy with it
what was your gist of the whole thing?
well my take on it
at least the stuff that I read about it
the reviews in the papers
most of the reviews that I read
were very favorable
as far as what people
who I guess you could say
what they thought about the book
I found that there were in fact mixed feelings
some people thought that
the book kind of
belittled certain characters
and I think that that
tended to annoy certain of those characters
or people that those characters knew
and I mean personally
in lots of ways I think that
things were oversimplified
to an extent
which I guess you would have to allow for
trying to condense
a lot of people, places and events
within 200 something pages
so a lot of details are going to get cut
and usually the first of those details
to be considered are technical details
so in an effort to make the book
as readable as possible
to the most diversest
of crowds
who would potentially be buying it
I guess that was something that needed to be done
whether or not I like that
I mean I would have liked it
if the book could have shown a lot more
technical things
about how things really are
and as far as
I think that it
made a lot of things
come off as being a lot simpler
and a lot less complex
than they really were in real life
while they were happening
I thought that there were a lot more issues at stake
than we really
delved into
one of the things that bugged me about the book
was the fact that they used the word gang so much
that doesn't connotate a very
good image
and in this case I don't think it connotated
a very accurate image
because you guys weren't
you weren't a street gang
you were a bunch of people just getting together
and doing things much like we're doing tonight
well that was the whole publicity thing
especially when we first got indicted
about gang wars in cyberspace
and all kinds of silly nonsense like that
well that's because you had inner city kids for the first time
involved in this kind of thing
do you remember they kept saying computer wilding too
yeah
that was another big catch phrase they liked to use
I was pretty disappointed to see the book
do that
to sort of go to the lowest common denominator
and use words like that
to kind of provide a hitch
well I think that we spent lots of time
myself and the other people involved
in providing
Josh and Michelle
the material itself
the facts about what really happened
and we painstakingly went over the fact that
there's really no gang
there's no gang war
there aren't really any
you know there's basically a disagreement
between a couple of people in New York and in Texas
and it was blown all out of proportion
while at the same time
focusing around a major federal indictment
but
I don't know that I could hold
the authors as responsible as possibly
the editors or the agent
in doing
the most that they possibly could
to sway things in the wrong direction
to hype up the book
with the whole gang war connotation
other than that though
how was it as far as telling the story
it is an interesting story to read
I won't take that away from it
it's interesting to read
no question about that
I guess in most ways
it reads well
I mean I'm not going to argue about
if it could have been written better
it's written and it's out
so it is in fact a quick read
I think people will enjoy reading it
at least in providing some insight
which I don't think
any books really
out there right now
can provide any contemporary
insight in the least
as far as
what the hackers are thinking
and to some extent
what they're doing
what their interests are
to quote from the 2600 review of this
in our most recent issue
actually
the spring 95 issue
seems like it came out so long ago too
if Masters of Deception
has any weakness
it's in trying to simplify a story
that could fill volumes
to something under 226 pages
to give you some perspective
fiber optics indictment alone could fill volumes
while I certainly respect
the magnitude of Sotala's and Quitner's
undertaking
I sometimes cringe at the result
a sort of fun to read children's story for adults
what do you think?
I think that wraps it up pretty good actually
that's our review of it
in the current 2600
a review that was written without the use
of the following terms
cyberpunk, cyberspace, digital highway, global network,
info-way, information superhighway, cracker and on-ram
a little effort you can avoid
using those terms as well
alright so here's our deal
we're offering that book plus a subscription
to 2600 magazine
the two items are not in any way connected
make that clear right now
for a pledge
of $100 you'll get a hard copy
version of that book
and a paperback version
of 2600 magazine for a year
delivered to wherever it is you tell us
to deliver it to
that's for $100, 212-279-3400
remember we take Visa and we take Mastercard
and this is a way for you to
find out for yourself
what it all means
what the book is all about
what the magazine is all about
to sort of venture into this world
and become a part of the whole crazy scene
we only have a few of those too though
so please give us a call
and be one of the people that
are a part of this
this whole magical, mystical world
of hackers
and cyberspace
here are some of the characters
I'm going to read your description here
you're going to be a little embarrassed here
Fiberoptic, I won't read people's real names
because I'm sure people listening that
aren't here right now might not like that
I don't blame them
this is how it's described
in the book, meet the cool dudes
of Masters of Deception
W-U-L, dude spelled D-0-0-D-S
yeah
212-279-3400
please call and pledge for this
Fiberoptic, a precocious teen
from Queens who developed
a love for computers at an early age
Fiber grew into an expert
hacker, a pioneer
on the electronic frontier
able to best even the most
complex security systems and explore
classified telephone company computer systems
to learn them first hand
where his knowledge and prowess
got him admitted into the exclusive hacker
gang, the Legion of Doom
his hot temper
and New Yorker's arrogance
got him kicked out
of the same gang, creating a rift
between the LOD and Fiber's new pals
the Masters of Deception
which would eventually
explode into
war
would you say that's an accurate assessment?
it's an interesting assessment
how accurate it is?
that's kind of how the book is
it reads well, it's fun to read
but it's not necessarily the way things happen
that's what you've got to remember here
I would almost say
that it would make a good mystery
make a good novel
as far as a documentary, I don't know
the way I saw it best described in certain reviews
in the papers was a sort of
cyberspatial west side story
well there you go
that kind of retort
it's guaranteed to spark some interest
again
212-279-3400
pledge of $100
you get that, you get the book, the whole thing
hardcover, and you get the
Hacker Quarterly 2600 magazine
where you can find out the latest in hacker lore
delivered right to your door
your PO box, or to someone else's door
if you so desire
so you'll be pretty much
as into the hacker world as you can
possibly get, I guess
without actually hacking yourself
although when you get on
certain federal lists, I don't know
they'll think you're guilty of something no matter what
Eric Bloodaxe
a middle class kid from
suburban Houston
Eric, front man for the Legion of Doom
was responsible for initiating
and blackballing fiber optic
from the gang
as the hacker war began to heat up
and the federal government was starting to crack down on hackers
Eric Bloodaxe and the LOD
changed their allegiance
offering to help corporations and
law enforcement agencies fight the hackers
he was once in league with
what do you think of that one?
well, uh
laughs
I don't know
you have your protagonist
and your antagonist here
you got people battling each other
you got all the settings
for some sort of a conflict
that's basically it
mods and rockers
alright, enough of that
I got in trouble last time
okay, now let's go to
some more New York people
and if they're listening, hey, how you doing?
Corrupt, a class clown
from Bedford-Stuyvesant, Brooklyn
Corrupt ran with a street gang
until he was picked up for attempted mugging
turning his life around, Corrupt put his energies
toward hacking with his cheap
Commodore 64 computer
Commodore computers
leading to something bigger
alright, uh, putting his energies
toward hacking with his cheap Commodore 64
computer, held together with tape
in no time, he became a brilliant
hacker, an expert in complex
VAX systems that allowed him access to computers
owned by Bank of America
TRW, and even the National
Security Administration
when he heard an LOD member refer to him as
nigger, he drew battle lines
for his attack on a Texas gang
that wasn't entirely the way it went, was it?
well, it wasn't as much of a turning point
as they make it seem like in the book
I mean, it was certainly
something that did in fact happen
who it was that actually
said that to John
or Corrupt
on the conference bridge
in question, I don't know if
Corrupt himself knows
he probably does
but I don't know necessarily
that that was such a major turning point
well, according to the book
things were never the same again
it was this pivotal moment
this cataclysmic event
for the purposes of
a piece of fiction
that you're trying to
demonstrate conflict
that would be the turning point
in real life, however, things like that are not the turning points
turning points are far more subtle than that
I guess it's really not possible to capture it
but, I don't know
I just want to set the record straight
because we are pretty much involved
with the people that are
mentioned here
that are focused upon here
and we do know some of the facts
most of the facts, I would say, involving the case
so, I'm not saying
the book is not something you would want to read
the book is something you would want to read
you should probably look at all books about this kind of thing
you should read The Hacker Crackdown
you should read Cyberpunk
and Cuckoo's Egg
and all that, or whatever
it's something
that I think we need to
keep updated on
and this is a good opportunity for people to be a part of this
continuing with our list of characters
Scorpion
valedictorian of Thomas A. Edison High School
class of 1988
Scorpion was hacker
the moment he
I don't know why they say it that way
Scorpion was hacker the moment he began playing with computers
maybe they left out a word there
a master of the programming language
programming language
what programming language, Fiber?
I believe they're about to say basic
yes, very good, I was testing you there
Scorpion spent his early adolescence
cracking codes and copying
expensive video games
by high school he was hooked up to a modem
again
again, that's a little misleading
his computer was hooked up to a modem
he was actually able to go outside
and do all the normal things
they really make it seem like these people are
addicted to these things
by high school he was hooked up to a modem
and was able to best systems
far more complex than those protecting
the boyish video games
and finally
we have Acid Freak
chronicler of M.O.D.'s
picture, pic, picture
I don't know how to say that word
I don't know if that is even a word
well, picturesque adventures
or is it picaresque adventures
picturesque, well they're two different words
what do you think they're trying to say here
p-i-c-a-r-e, picaresque
how does that differ from picturesque
picturesque means it's visually appealing
picaresque
the origins is
renaissance Spanish
I don't care about the origins
having to do with the countryside
you know, a traveling story
usually, bucolic
what does that have to do with hacking
the Three Musketeers and Don
Don Quixote are picaresque
novels, okay
okay, so we got the Don Quixote element
introduced here
anyway, with regards to all that
Acid's file, the history of M.O.D.
made legends of the gang
yeah, there's that word again
the gang that he, Fiber, and Scorpion
had created as a joke
to annoy the elite L.O.D.
now you see, it's good that they at least say that
that it was created as sort of a joke
it's good to say that, yeah, it was in fact created as sort of a joke
only it was in existence before
I met some of these people
and it existed then
as more or less a joke
but
I mean, it's not as if we
sat down around
like Knights of the Round Table
and formed this pact that we would seek the Grail
and you didn't dress in armor
and all that
go out on raids and things like that
boy, I'm even learning something here
along with the rest of the gang
there it is again
along with the rest of the gang
he vaulted electronic fences
obtained access to classified information
made brash proclamations
in Harper's Magazine
and clashed with the Legion of Doom
it's not as if he wasn't invited
to make brash proclamations
in Harper's Magazine
in fact, they wanted him to do that
so that's the
Meet the Cool Dudes of Masters of Deception
blurb that came with the book
and all kinds of other little items here
but
even though I have problems
with some of the way the book is written
I still think it's a good deal
because you're supporting the radio station
you're learning something
you're getting one aspect of the story
and when we make reference to these things in the future
you'll be able to keep up
you'll know what's going on
and it's an interesting story
it is well written
I wasn't able to put it down
I think I read it
while it was sitting
so that's the kind of book it is
so for a pledge of $100
which really is not that much
especially if you do a Visa Mastercard type of thing
you'll get that
you'll get the 2600 magazine for a full year
that's four
action-packed issues
we just recently expanded
we're now 56 pages
as opposed to 48 pages
and you'll also get the WBAI folio
delivered to your door
and that's really the only way to know
what's on this radio station at various times
that's how I found out I was on for 2 hours and 45 minutes tonight
by looking at the folio
because there's really no other way to know
this radio station is not like other ones
you can't turn it on and hear classic rock
you can't turn it on and hear grunge
you can't turn it on and hear
the modern rock
alternative sounds
classical music, jazz, country
whatever all the other stations are doing 24 hours a day
they all do the same thing
they're pretty much programmed
that's the jazz station
that's the country station
that's the news station
we're the station
you never know what's going to happen next
and that's kind of the way we like it
that's kind of the way the listeners like it
but you need that program guide
in order to know what's going on
so, 212-279-3400
there's no more calls on the line
so I know there are people out there
we're up to 1450
but the phone lines are dead right now
we'd like to see them all light up
212-279-3400
call in for the Masters of Deception book
and the subscription to the magazine
if you want to spend a little less
you can get a subscription to the magazine
and a 2600 t-shirt
for a pledge of $75
and again, that 2600 t-shirt
is rumored
to be in its last printing
so, once they're gone, they're gone
and you can guarantee one
for yourself
by calling now
212-279-3400
the shirts have a schematic
of a blue box on the front
and a whole bunch of newspaper articles
on the back
I've gotten into so many discussions
with people wearing that shirt
people stop you and say
oh, you're a hacker
you know people at 2600 magazine
it can be annoying, but it can also be fun
if it's annoying, you simply throw a shirt on over it
and you can tell your friends too
it's like, boy, I got this because
I'm a friend of WBAI
you know, that neat radio station that has off the hook on it
and a lot of people have gotten turned on to BAI
through off the hook
and that's really a good thing to see
it's a lot of us coming together
and sharing knowledge, sharing enthusiasm
sharing information
coming from all different walks of life
it's sort of like going to college
in a way, learning all you possibly can
212-279-3400
we have two phone calls on the line
we have capacity for
seven altogether
212-279-3400
you know, you really shouldn't be throwing paper airplanes
around the studio
it's not a professional way
I mean, they do it on Nightly News, yes, we know
we all saw that once, but
not here, we're a little more professional than that
yeah, it's been a long night
we have four phone calls
now, Farber, you're going to get the next phone call
and it's the next person to call in
because you're throwing the paper airplane
you're going to now get someone
to call in the phone
we're waiting for that fifth line to light up
you have to get this phone call
but you are going to tell me when they call in
maybe
oh, come on, be nice
let's see, I need a pitch, right?
yeah
I've used up all the good ones
you know, we haven't talked about
for people that don't know, you're someone
who's gone through the whole hacker process
you started off
you got really, really good, you met a lot of people
you got in trouble, you went to prison
and you came back
now, how did BAI change any of that?
they didn't change what happened to you, but
where would you be without BAI?
well, I mean, we could
talk about how
I actually called in from prison
and we had some radio shows
where I was actually live on the air
that was neat
and in fact, that was a great diversion
while I was there
in fact, you even put other prisoners on the air
and they were able to tell their story
to all of New York
that was really, really cool
and I'm glad I got away with it
yeah, because that's not legal either
to do that
technically, it would be against the rules
that's the only way you can survive in this society
is to do things against the rules
now, there's different rules
there's, you know, moral conduct
that, you know, you just have to sort of
get away with, like, you know, chewing gum
in class and things like that
that's one of the good rules, I believe in that one
but, never mind
you still have to get that phone call
ok, I still haven't gotten the phone call
you lost two, actually
really?
yes
well, I mean, really, without
our listeners' support for BAI
it would not have been possible, obviously
for me to call in from prison
and to have
prisoners' voices heard live on the air
because I don't think
there would be any avenue for that to happen
WABC does not have this kind of program
I don't think that they would
WCBS does not have time for it
they have to give their traffic and weather together every ten minutes
and I don't think they would take calls from prisoners either
probably not, you see
most other stations
represent the norms of society
where prisoners are looked at as
bad, evil, you want to sweep them under the rug
you don't want to know about them
here at BAI, we're willing to listen
to let people speak, to hear
the other side of the story
and while you may
not always agree with what you hear
at least you have the opportunity to hear the other side of the story
and that's something that I think is
extremely important
and in our increasingly simplistic society
we have to
always be open to
potential questions
questions that people don't want us to ask
it's important
look at this, I'm doing it again
I'm the one talking, you should be talking
what's going on here
go ahead, you have to get this call
oh come on, you're lying to me
I just saw the number go up
well the number doesn't go up until ten minutes after the call comes in
oh I see
I want this call coming in
you have to get this call
you'll feel good after you do it
just like the person out there will feel good after they
you say that, I'm not going to say that
the person will feel good out there right after they pledge
and they contribute to such a worthy cause
make us all stronger
yes, make us all stronger
and I'm sure they'll be feeling good vibes
and provided that they continue to listen to us
every Wednesday night
from ten to eleven
and possibly in the future
they can come and join us at Act Cafe
and after the show that is
the telephone rang by the way
but they hung up
I guess I have to put more oomph into it
you got people to call
but you didn't get them to stay on the line
ok, I'm getting better
give the old phone number out
oh the old phone number, yes, it's 279-3400
area code 212
it's the most elite area code in the country
it's the best one to have
well there's no phone calls on the board right now
we got rid of them all
everybody else had a 212
ok now
we have two lines ringing
they have to stay on the line
and they have to pledge
please people don't hang up
one of them already hung up
now the second one is online
the first one is ringing again
the second one is hung up
now they're both ringing
this could go on for a very long time
we need real people out there
not just to call us
but to call us and pledge
because every little bit
remember we started at nine o'clock
we pledged 15.55
a lot of people pledged various amounts
now we're giving suggested amounts
75, 100
you don't have to pledge that
if you can't afford that
if you can only afford 25 or 50
by all means pledge what you can afford
you will always get the WBAI folio
there are all kinds of other premiums we have
that are not related to the show
that you can ask about
there's volunteers down there
that are more than happy to answer your questions
and they'll work with you
it's not a competitive situation
they're very friendly people
they're listeners to BAI just like you


And we're all in this together.
These are troubled times.
We're not just saying that, you know, just to say it.
I mean, you know, watch TV.
Look at C-SPAN.
Look at what people are saying.
We're entering into a period where there's increasing regulation
of what we say and what we do.
And, you know, things are not as easy as they were a few years ago.
Without getting into partisan politics,
we have a Republican-dominated Congress for the first time in decades.
We have a Republican governor, a Republican mayor.
It all kind of adds up into too much power in one side.
And, you know, we have a president which I don't really consider to be Democratic in many ways.
And I can only wonder what's going to happen in a couple of years when the election comes up.
It's possible everybody will be Republican by then.
When that happens, or maybe before that happens,
you may see some real turning of the tide.
You may see some more religious right power.
You may see some more religious right in radio.
You know, it's not really a big deal to me to see all these religious radio stations.
It bothers me, though, when they put them in non-commercial areas of the radio band,
for instance, below 92.
That's an area reserved just for non-commercial stations.
Now, a non-commercial station can be anywhere in the dial just like we are.
We're at 99.5, and it's a tremendous stroke of good luck that we are.
But when you stick a religious station in a non-commercial area,
it takes away from a station that could be there, say, from a college
or from just a community group of people that want to put out radio.
We don't see enough good radio stations out there.
I'll give a couple of examples just to show that we're not trying to hog the market here.
Stations like WFMU, a college that no longer exists.
Uppsala College went out of business, but the radio station's still there.
I think that's kind of neat.
WPKN in Bridgeport, same thing.
The college was bought by the Moonies.
The Moonies came in, and they took over the college,
but the radio station, because of listener support,
was able to remain independent of all that,
and now they're a community-based station.
WUSB, Stony Brook, New York, out on the island.
Another college slash community station recently got the approval
to double their transmitter strength so they'll be reaching more people.
The only way they were able to do that was through listener support.
So, yeah, there are a lot of good stations out there.
By a lot, I mean a handful,
because in most parts of the country, there isn't even one.
WBAI is an incredible resource that does not exist in other parts of the country.
That's why it's up to you to keep it here, to keep it strong,
because people like Newt Gingrich are not going to lift a finger to help us.
In fact, they're going to lift many fingers to hurt us
and to cut off funding, our federal funding,
to make sure that various other bad things happen to us.
So I think the strength is there, though, to keep us going.
And you can support us however you want.
If you want to just call up and make a donation, that's fine.
If you want to call and get the MLD book
and the subscription to the magazine for $100, that's fine.
If you want to call and get a subscription to the magazine and a T-shirt for $75, that's great.
There's all kinds of things you can do.
If you want to come down and volunteer and answer some phones, that's incredible, too.
We need all the help we can get, 212-279-3400.
We've gotten this far, not just today, not just this Pledge Drive,
not just this year, since the early 1960s,
when this radio station was donated to us.
That's right, this radio station was probably the biggest donation we've ever had.
And it's all come about because people wanted an alternative.
So please, be a part of the process.
212-279-3400, 212-279-3400.
Again, $100, you get the MLD book, Masters of Deception.
It just came out this year, and the subscription to the Hacker Quarterly 2600 magazine.
And for $75, you get that same subscription and a soon-to-be discontinued 2600 T-shirt.
For a $75 pledge.
212-279-3400.
Now, we have an interesting article that came out in yesterday's Daily News.
You see this? Revenge of the Nerds.
Front page story.
I can't believe this.
Top high school kids and computer hacking scandal.
And you know where it was coming from?
Stuyvesant High School.
Stuyvesant High School.
That's where all the troublemakers come from, Stuyvesant High School.
A lot of people come to our meetings from Stuyvesant High School.
A lot of people on our magazine are from Stuyvesant High School.
It's something to think about.
Now, I had no idea about this.
I just read about this yesterday in the Daily News,
and I would not have picked up the Daily News if someone hadn't called me and told me to do that.
Students at Manhattan's prestigious Stuyvesant High School
used the school's computers to break into the confidential records of three prominent colleges.
Then, the unidentified hackers cracked the security code of a private company
working with the school to protect computers against such breaches.
Now, red-faced officials of one of the city's most heralded public schools,
whose students routinely win Westinghouse Science Prizes and other national honors,
have launched an investigation into the hijacking on the information superhighway.
I love this language.
Okay.
An executive at the private security firm Ingress Communications in Manhattan
said the students committed a federal offense.
You know, they had to call this guy at a private security firm
just to get him to say these people committed a federal offense.
That's how the media works, you know.
We can't say it ourselves.
We can't say it's a federal offense.
We have to get some guy with an important-sounding name to do that.
Stuyvesant Principal Jinx Perullo.
That's some name, Jinx.
The name is actually Jinx.
Wow.
J-I-N-X.
I respect someone with the name of Jinx.
Stuyvesant Principal Jinx Perullo.
Note that will be the subject of much ribbing tomorrow night or tomorrow day
when they bring tapes of this radio program in
where we're making fun of the fact that the principal's name is Jinx.
Okay.
Well, kids have to take it.
Why can't principals, you know?
Imagine a kid going to Stuyvesant High School to name Jinx.
Actually, there probably are a few.
But anyway, Jinx told the news yesterday
that the students apparently pulled off the internet heists for cyberspace kicks.
Yes.
That's a tough sentence to read.
In the seven break-ins that occurred last week,
she said, Jinx is a female name.
I didn't know that.
Really?
Yeah.
Wow.
They did not change any of the records at Columbia, Princeton, or Bucknell.
Princeton is in New Jersey.
Bucknell is in Pennsylvania.
They did it for the sheer thrill.
That's what the principal said.
They did it for the sheer thrill.
And then the vice principal, Eugene Bloufarb.
Blouf?
Blouf?
How do you say that one?
Bloufarb.
Bloufarb.
Bloufarb.
Bloufarb.
Now imagine if they got married.
Jinx Bloufarb.
Jinx Bloufarb.
Bloufarb.
Bloufarb.
Bloufarb.
Bloufarb.
Oh boy.
I wish I went to Stuyvesant.
Anyway.
Okay.
These are actually cool people, though.
I mean, we're not making fun of their names.
But what they're saying is, listen to what they say.
These kids are not like gangsters or crooks,
said Vice Principal Eugene Bloufarb.
These are like the kids in the movie War Games.
They are brilliant.
Now, Farber, correct me if I'm wrong,
but the things that you did were pretty much almost exactly like this.
I don't recall a large number of people in the media saying that you were brilliant,
that you did it for the sheer thrill,
that you were like the kids in War Games.
Incidentally, when I had gotten access to the UAPC computer
that houses, among other things, high school grades and so on and so forth,
that's when I was a freshman in high school.
I wasn't exactly heralded as being brilliant and how it was all a big challenge.
I was actually held in the dean's office the entire day,
not allowed to eat lunch, had my parents notified,
and was subsequently suspended from school for a week.
Oh, that's quite different.
Yeah, it was a bit different.
Now, maybe if you had gone to Stuyvesant, they would have treated you with a whole different respect.
It would have been a whole different thing.
Okay, we have some more people to thank,
but we're going to get back to this story in just a moment.
We want to thank Bob from Waterbury, Connecticut,
I know these things.
Well, that's far away.
That's far away.
I'm very happy to know that we're getting all the way out there.
Hello to Connecticut.
And then we also want to thank Jonathan from Boundbrook, New Jersey.
Okay, thanks for your donation.
Eric from Stanford, Connecticut.
Eric from Stanford, Connecticut, thank you for your pledge.
And this person does not want to be thanked.
I don't know why they gave me their name,
but thank you anyway.
I thank you, even though you don't want to be thanked.
So there, the last word there.
Okay, so getting back to this story.
Ingress's vice president of technology, Richard Chung,
said the Stuyvesant students have the means of accessing accounts at those colleges.
They had user accounts and passwords.
When asked if he thought the students might have wanted to get access to student transcripts,
a college would have to be crazy to keep a transcript on computer.
Well, now, these people have enlightened attitudes, you know.
They realize that, yeah, you know, this kind of thing would be stupid if they did it.
And if someone is able to get access to it, well, you know,
why do you have it there in the first place?
It's kind of a temptation, don't you think?
He didn't say all that, but I'm reading into what he said.
Chung said that only the colleges would know
if the students had changed or retrieved information.
Columbia spokesman Fred Neubel said there were no consequences for our computer system.
One student ID was compromised, and the university has turned it off.
Stuyvesant students were not surprised by their classmates' wizardry.
They boasted openly that they can pay their classmates to produce fake credit cards,
change their grades, and forge bus passes and school identification cards.
If you know the right people, it's $100 to change a grade,
$5 to get a fake bus pass from the laser printer upstairs.
A lot of people pay to get their grades changed.
That's what happens when you throw 3,000 of the world's smartest students into one building
and chime in another student.
I don't know about this changing grades business.
They sound like a bunch of arrogant brats.
For me, that's stepping over the line when you're actually selling services.
It's gotten past the point of figuring things out
and challenging the system and bypassing security.
When you're running a business and selling things that are obviously fraudulent,
you lose a lot of the charm there.
People doing that have got to be careful and think about what you're really doing.
If you can make fake ID, I had no trouble with fake ID,
but if you're making a business out of it,
then you're benefiting from doing things that are fraudulent.
You're making a profit out of it.
That's where the real fun aspect of it goes away.
One student displayed his fake bus pass and fake identification card
and offered to make a fake visitor's pass for a reporter who was denied access to the school.
Yeah, that's the kind of neat stuff we like to see.
The fraudulent documents were virtually indistinguishable from the real ones.
Another student spoke of one classmate who keeps a menu of fake credit cards in his school computer account.
He hangs out in the computer room and he brags about it, said one student.
Pirillo said she had no knowledge of widespread computer fraud in her school,
but she vowed to launch a probe.
She said school officials probably could trace the origin of the most recent Internet attacks on the colleges,
but those computer addresses likely would not reveal the hackers' identities
because the students were undoubtedly smart enough to cover their tracks.
We were told students are sophisticated enough to use the terminal address of another terminal, she said.
Students are given virtually unlimited access to the computers
and can log on to the Internet using the school's account without teacher supervision.
Pirillo said the school will hire additional computer consultants to create a tracking mechanism
that can identify students on the system,
but students remain confident that their peers could crack any code.
Undoubtedly they will, but what do you think?
Do you think they should have more restrictions?
I don't know necessarily that they should have more restrictions.
I think they should have a lot more awareness that it's not cool to make fake credit cards.
No, because that leads to stealing.
Stealing money, stealing products.
Tangible theft as opposed to wandering around in cyberspace
and seeing how big the buildings are and things like that.
It's different.
People argue with me all the time about this.
They try to equate it as the same way, but they just don't get it.
It's not the same thing.
Logging into a computer system and exploring is not the same thing
as using a credit card and stealing clothing and records
and whatever else you might buy with a credit card.
It's not the same thing.
Stuyvesant High School, by the way, was also where they filmed a large part of the film Hackers,
which is coming out in August, which I think is kind of interesting.
There's a little sidebar here.
When Hollywood honchos sought out locations for the upcoming flick Hackers,
they headed where else? To Stuyvesant High School.
In the latest case of life imitating art, the movie was filmed partly on location
at the prestigious Lower Manhattan High School,
where the overall grade point average is A-.
But some jaded students were less impressed.
Everybody hated the movie, said sophomore Tal Levine.
It was corny and stupid.
But what do you expect from spoiled brats at a high school where the average grade is A-?
Okay, we have an editorial.
Here's an editorial from today's Daily News.
They had time to think about this, and now they're coming out with their editorials about it.
It's called Computer Delinquents.
Now you know that that's got to be bad.
Okay, here we go.
If a bunch of punks broke into a college administration building just to see if they could do it,
they'd be treated as the criminals they are.
Let the same bunch break into a computer system, though, and it's a different story.
The prime defense explanation is usually, but these kids are so smart.
As if that excused criminal activity.
Somewhere along the way, IQ has become more prized than ethical behavior.
The latest hacker caper has emanated from the brains at Stuyvesant High School,
where students reportedly cracked a security code and did a little cyberspace snooping
in the files of Columbia, Princeton, and Bucknell.
With them, the hackers, it's not a crime.
It's a challenge, said a vice principal.
Since these pubescent Einsteins obviously have the intellect to understand the word crime,
the problem must be attitudinal.
If you're smart, you're above the law.
Well, it's up to law enforcement and Stuyvesant to provide a lesson to the contrary.
Principal Jinx Perullo gave indications yesterday that the problem is not a crime.
Perullo gave indications yesterday that this would be done,
noting that whatever the intent, this sort of behavior is unacceptable.
She said the school would launch a probe into computer abuse,
tighten security, and start teaching ethics in technology courses.
But the best teaching is by example,
and that means stern punishment for violators.
For too long, hacking has been treated as a slightly risky form of recreation,
the egghead's alternative to bungee jumping.
The hackers have even come to expect admiration,
not condemnation, much less penalties.
Now, at Stuyvesant, is the perfect time for authorities to let the culprits know
the rules have changed.
I don't know, what do you think of that?
I think while we're at it, we ought to string up those little commie pinkos by their thumbs.
Yeah, I'm glad to hear you talk some sense here.
This kind of thing has been going on way too long.
Gotta put a stop to this menace.
These guys went in and they looked at things, and you know, you can't have that.
People walking around and gazing at computers.
Gotta teach them lessons, gotta teach them fear, gotta teach them respect.
If that doesn't work,
we'll just have to instill some more fear somewhere else.
Get out of the deck!
I'm not taking the first one!
Get out of the water!
They get out, I'll recharge!
System, demo, ready.
I'll carry.
Clear a shock and exit.
Exit, all done.
And we'd sure like to break 2,000 in that time.
The only way we can do that, though, is with your help.
212-279-3400 is our telephone number.
If you like what you've been hearing,
if you like what you've heard over the past weeks,
months, years,
who knows?
Give us a call, 212-279-3400.
It's, um, getting to that point
where we kind of have to think of wrapping it up, you know?
Well, we got a half hour, so I guess there's still plenty of time
to talk about various things.
Like this, for instance.
The Oregon ATM thief who was robbed himself.
First, he helped rip off $346,770
in one of the largest automated teller scams
in the nation's history.
Then, when he tried to return some of the loot,
he was robbed.
Not all went awry.
The robber who robbed the robber was caught,
and the $60,000 was recovered.
To say it sounds like a coincidence
would be an understatement, said police spokesman C.W. Jensen.
Yeah, the money, money, money, money.
Yeah, after talking to the suspect,
the detective felt confident that
what happened was exactly what was said.
Yeah, quick and to the point.
David Gallagher and four accomplices
used a stolen bank card
to rob 48 ATM machines on November 18.
They were able to make 724 withdrawals
on phony ATM deposits
because a computer software problem
removed the usual $200 daily limit on withdrawals.
Gallagher, who was on weekend release from jail,
was confronted by a gunman Saturday
as he headed to meet his lawyer
to turn over some of the cash to the Secret Service
as part of his plea bargain.
The man took off with the money,
tossing some of it into the air
as he was cornered by patrons from a bar a block away.
I guess they wanted a taste.
Justin Morris, 20 years old in Milwaukee,
was charged with first-degree robbery,
unlawful use of a weapon,
possession of a controlled substance,
and running on a public street.
Well, did they pass a new law or something?
Apparently that's not right either.
Yeah, all right.
We're moving into some weird and wacky times here.
212-279-3400.
We need to reach our goal for this show,
and we can do that with your help.
You can hear additional fun stories like this
in the future
if you give us a call
and pledge your support to keep us going.
I guess I can't really say it any better than that.
We also have some word on caller ID.
Nationwide caller ID, that is.
You've heard about it, right?
Yeah, all right.
Well, they've postponed it.
They've postponed it, and they've made it better.
You know how they've done that?
Well, first of all,
nationwide caller ID was supposed to be here now.
I've heard reports that it is,
but it's not officially supposed to be here yet,
not until December 1st,
as I believe one of our callers told us,
and that's another thing.
You know, we get a lot of our information from our callers
either by writing in to us or by calling us
and telling us various things.
It's really kind of neat, you know,
this whole source of information thing we got going here.
The Federal Communication Commission has voted
to approve national caller ID rules
that will protect the privacy of the called
and the calling party
by mandating that the carriers make available
a free, simple, and consistent
per-call blocking and unblocking mechanism.
Under the rules adopted,
callers dialing star 67
before dialing a particular call
will, for interstate calls,
block calling party information
for any interstate calls,
and those callers using a blocked line
can unblock the line
and release that information by dialing star 82,
which is what NYNEX introduced last year.
The order permits carriers to provide privacy
on all calls
dialed from a particular line
where state policies provide
and the customer selects that option.
Now, that's significant,
because if you recall,
the one that was supposed to take place
this May, this month, actually,
said that they didn't have to do that.
In other words,
NYNEX has to provide all call blocking
within the state,
but they didn't have to do it out of state.
They simply had to do star 67,
and those regulations
overrode the regulations
of interstate caller ID.
So that's actually pretty good,
as far as I can see.
If you have caller ID blocking on your line,
it will be blocked across state borders.
So I think that's pretty significant
and probably a result of a lot of consumer outcry.
Again, an example of the power
that we all have in our little hands.
Call it the FCC,
and you make your point.
You call it the PSC,
you make your point.
You might just see some changes.
Same thing with NYNEX.
Do you see NYNEX saw some sort of an improvement
in the first quarter of this year?
Something like a 25% improvement
in service orders.
Only, I think, 70% of people
expressed dissatisfaction with NYNEX
as opposed to 90%.
Something along those lines.
They said it's not quite what we hope to achieve yet,
but we're getting there,
and we hope by the year 3000
to get there entirely.
Well, we'll see about that.
All right, 212-279-3400.
Shall we do it?
Shall we open up some phone lines
so people can call us?
Sure, why not?
All right, why not?
Because people have been good to us tonight,
and we want to express our appreciation.
212-279-3407 is our number to call
to be on the air.
Yes, but please,
if you call and you get a busy signal,
consider calling the other line
and pledging,
because by pledging,
you're making it possible
for people to call year-round
and be on the air
and share information.
Pledge whatever you can afford.
You don't have to pledge $75.
You don't have to pledge $100
to get those special premiums we offered.
You can pledge whatever you can afford.
It all makes a difference,
and we'll give you something in return.
That's up to our volunteers
that are currently standing by the phones
waiting for them to ring.
212-279-3400.
Shall we go to the first line?
Let's do it.
Let's see who's out there.
Good evening, you're on.
Oh, yes.
Hi, Emmanuel.
How are you doing?
Turn down the radio.
How are you doing?
Hello?
Go ahead, you're on.
Okay, hi.
How are you doing, Emmanuel?
Pretty good.
It's pretty thrilling to be on the air, isn't it?
Yeah, it is.
Imagine if you didn't have that thrill.
Imagine if we couldn't both talk at the same time.
Okay.
You know?
New York would be lacking something.
Yes, okay.
Concerning ISDN.
Glad we agree.
Yes.
Yes, I'm aware of a system
from ISDN Systems Corporation in Virginia.
ISDN Systems Corporation.
Are you sure they deal with ISDN?
Very original name there.
Yeah, really.
Okay, what about it?
Okay, yeah, what about it?
Okay, well, it's an all-in-one type board,
as FiberOptic mentioned.
And if I could mention price, I don't know.
Sure, go ahead.
They offer it for $199 in the 9x service area.
In certain service areas, they offer it at that price.
And I don't have this sheet in my hand,
but it offers the RJ-11 service,
the high-speed serial port, as he said,
and certain security features.
It's a very comprehensive board.
So I just have the information there,
and you can check up on it.
Does this sound like the same kind of board
you were talking about?
No, well...
All right, you can now hear the phones ringing
when people call us,
so please give us a call at 212-279-3400,
not just to hear the phone ring on the air,
but to pledge to us,
because that's very important to us to keep going.
That's why we're here tonight.
Now, continue.
Yeah, I wasn't actually...
The product I was describing wasn't a board.
It was actually a standalone unit.
Oh, it's a standalone unit?
Yeah, which means you could use it
on any computer at all with a serial port.
Oh, it goes through the serial port?
Yeah, yeah.
Okay.
They might offer other products.
I just hope you could check up on it,
since I don't have an ISDN line.
Okay, why don't you give us the information one more time,
the name of the company?
It's ISDN Systems Corporation.
I have a...
Do you have a phone number for them?
I had a phone number,
but apparently it was somebody's resident.
Oh, dear.
Oh, boy.
They have a web address.
Okay, why don't you give us that?
Okay.
HTTP, I guess you know that.
Yeah.
www.infoanalytic.com
Okay.
ISC index.html
Okay.
Okay.
All right, well, I'm sure people are already clicking on that
and downloading it right now, even as we speak.
Okay, if I could ask one thing.
Yes.
Is there...
Could you make available just a very simple sheet
on the ISDN rates?
I got something from the phone company,
and it totally confused me.
Well, yeah, we're totally confused, too.
If we ever get to the point where we're not confused,
we'll try and break it down for people
so they can understand it, but...
Well, we can...
Next week, I could bring in the rate structure,
and we can both break it down
and explain...
We're only on for an hour next week.
That is true.
All right.
Not enough time, right?
Well, okay, we'll try to do something like that.
Okay, thank you.
All right, thanks for calling.
212-279-34...
I forgot to ask him if he pledged.
All right.
Let's make it sort of an unwritten rule here.
If you get on the air, you're going to call,
and you're going to pledge after you get on the air
because, you know, it's the righteous thing to do, you know?
Righteous.
And we do need all the help we can get.
Now, we...
I don't know if the number's been updated
because it looks like it's staying the same.
1705.
And that's...
You know, if that's still the same,
if we haven't gotten anything in the last 15 minutes,
that's upsetting.
That's upsetting, and I don't want to be upset
because it's such a nice night out,
and we want to have a lot of people
helping us to move forward into the next year.
212-279-3400 again to repeat what we have available.
And this is above and beyond anything else
that is already available when you just call
and pledge whatever you can afford.
If you pledge $75, you will get a subscription
to 2600 Magazine,
which, as I understand it,
is the nation's leading hacker magazine
having to do with subjects of computer hacking
and phone phreaking and all kinds of other neat things.
You want these back, don't you?
Okay.
One moment while I give the cards back to the Tali people.
There you go.
Thank you.
All right, so you will get a one-year subscription
to that journal,
which I happen to know quite a lot of people that work for it.
And also, you'll get a 2600 official T-shirt.
Now, this is a 2600 T-shirt that has the...
We all have one, right?
We all have one.
In fact, Farber, you even have one of the old ones.
Yeah, I have one of the original ones.
And the fact that you have one of those old ones,
those real old ones,
earns you a lot of respect, doesn't it?
Oh, yeah, undoubtedly.
Old ladies get up on the bus and give you their seat.
You get wave-through, token-turn styles.
Cab drivers drive you wherever you want to go, gratis.
And all kinds of neat things.
You get the best cuts in restaurants.
And it's just amazing
because you're wearing something that is no longer available.
Now, that is soon to be the case with the 2600 T-shirts of now.
You have one of the old ones that is black lettering on white.
Right.
Not very many people know about that.
And now the ones that you see around,
the white lettering on black,
they're in their last printing.
Their last printing.
We are about to change our design and go to a new one.
So we are offering these as part of the $75 pledge,
a one-year subscription to the magazine, and a T-shirt.
And it's not just a scraggly T-shirt here.
It's a good T-shirt.
It'll last you for years.
It's nice and thick and, you know, worthy of respect.
Definitely.
And for a pledge of $100,
you can get a subscription to the magazine
as well as a hardcover copy of Masters of Deception,
which is the book that FiberOptic is featured in,
as well as many other hackers and crackers,
as they describe them, of today.
And, you know, you may have differing views
on the things that you read,
but they are definitely interesting.
So please keep those phone calls coming in.
212-279-3400.
That's our phone number.
It really is.
All right.
Shall we take another phone call?
Sure, let's do it.
All right.
Good evening.
You're on.
Hi.
Go ahead.
Am I on?
Oh.
You're on.
Do you know what Channel One is?
Oh, what?
Do you mean the news channel thing that New York City has?
Or do you mean the WIDA communications thing
that gets piped to school kids?
Right.
That's it.
That's the one.
Oh, boy.
I don't have high opinions of that
to school kids who are captive audiences.
Yeah, well, I'm one of those kids,
but there's a lot of controversy about that.
Well, I'm glad to hear it.
A few months ago.
Uh-huh.
But anyway, this week they're doing a series
on computer crime,
and on Tuesday they had,
it's only about 10 minutes or so,
but they had a few minutes on the Masters of Deception.
Did they?
Yeah.
I don't know who was on
because I haven't really been following it,
but you'd be interested to hear that.
And I guess they show commercials
surrounding that, didn't they?
Yeah, they have two sets of commercials,
about a minute each.
Mm-hmm.
Are you allowed to talk during the commercials?
Oh, we're basically allowed to talk
during the whole thing.
Okay.
Well, that's good.
That's good.
I'd hate to think that people are actually
forcing their students to listen to this.
I mean, they make us listen.
Last year they made us take notes and stuff.
Really?
Are you quizzed on the things that you see there?
We have like a current events test
every once in a while or something.
Yeah.
You know, you'd be better off
watching CNN or something, I think.
Definitely.
I think CNN even has something for school kids.
And just recently, this year in fact,
BBC offers their news feed
to cable systems in this country.
So if you have cable TV,
I'd strongly suggest you call them
and ask them to carry BBC News.
I mean, that and CNN together
will provide you some really, really good coverage.
For instance, you know,
this whole thing with the Ebola virus
is practically blacked out in this country,
but BBC is doing all kinds of coverage of it.
And I think it's something
that people need to hear and learn from.
My friend's very interested in that.
He was on all the different
World Health Organization webpage and stuff,
checking out all that stuff.
Yeah, there's a lot of interest in it.
People want to learn more.
And, you know, even the New York Times
wasn't covering it.
So you have to wonder, why?
What are they not saying?
There's something going on, obviously,
and we should be hearing it.
This country is widely known
for not taking an interest
in other cultures, other societies,
what people are saying
in other parts of the world.
This is a way to change that a little bit,
to voice your opinion
and ask your cable company
to carry something different.
And maybe it'll make a difference.
Maybe your school will carry it, too.
Yeah, maybe.
Because Channel One just merged with ABC, I think.
They're allowed to use some of their news feed now
for some of their stories.
Really?
Yeah.
That's interesting.
I also wanted to ask you a question
about the encryption before.
Mm-hmm.
The government.
Is that referring to, like, computer programs
that would encrypt files?
Or how does that work?
I think they were talking about
encryption in general.
Any encryption that would impede
federal investigation, I think,
would be considered illegal.
Let me give you an example.
At 2600.com, which is our new service
that we put up for the magazine...
I like it.
Sorry?
I saw your webpage. I like it.
Well, it's nothing yet.
It's nothing yet. It's getting there.
It's getting there.
It'll be good soon.
Thanks anyway.
We're getting to the point where
all of our writers, our contributors,
various people that have something to do
with the magazine throughout the country,
throughout the world, in fact,
are logging on to this system.
And what we have is a special feature
that enables you, if you want to do this,
and a lot of people do,
to protect your files when you log off.
It only takes an extra couple of seconds, too,
to do this.
Mm-hmm.
Automatically PGPs and stores it
in encrypted format.
Therefore, if somebody comes in
and takes the machine,
if the machine is, God forbid, seized
or someone gains access to it somehow,
your files are encrypted.
Nobody can read them.
We can't even read them.
The system administrators can't even read them.
That's the way it should be designed.
We're trying to design this
with a hacker mentality in mind,
to provide encryption, to provide security,
to prepare for the worst-case scenario.
And now they're going to turn around
and tell us that what we're doing is illegal.
It simply boggles the mind.
We're trying to make a secure system,
and they don't want us to do that.
Uh-huh.
Yeah, it's amazing what they're trying to do.
Yeah, well, you know,
we don't intend to dumb down the system
for the benefit of any federal agencies,
I can tell you that.
Yeah.
All right, well, listen, thanks for calling.
Thank you.
All right.
Bye-bye.
So, yeah, that Channel 1 is everywhere.
I didn't go to school when that thing existed, but...
I didn't either.
Yeah.
They donate equipment, I know that,
but it's not worth it.
I'm sorry to pipe commercials in to kids.
I just don't think it's...
You know, education should not have...
I mean, they want to put advertisements on school buses.
Did you hear that one?
No.
Yeah, to supplement the city income.
They want to put billboards on school buses.
I mean, where's it going to end, you know?
I mean, already you have Burger King and McDonald's
in schools, you know, in colleges, for instance,
as, you know, they provide lunch and dinner
and things like that.
It's not, like, real food.
It's junk food, you know?
And this corporate mentality is taking over
everywhere we look.
Everywhere.
Do we do the promo yet for McDonald's?
No.
Okay.
That will never happen here.
212-279-3400, please show your support.
Looks like we broke the 2,000 barrier,
but we won't have an official word on that
until 1145, when we'll have a total number.
212-279-3400.
We still need as many calls as possible.
All right.
Good evening.
You're on the radio?
212-279-3407, if you want to be on the air.
Good evening.
I have a few serious questions for you.
Okay.
Go ahead.
Radio off.
Okay.
Number one, is the 2600 T-shirt all cotton?
Um...
I believe it is, yes.
It is all cotton.
Okay.
Number two, a few weeks ago, you featured a Scout.
Uh-huh.
It's like sort of like an optoelectronic,
scans frequencies, but it also allows you to receive them.
You know what they did?
They came out with a new Scout in the last week.
Yeah.
At the same exact price as the one I paid for my old Scout,
so I'm kind of peeved by that.
Yeah, question.
Could I ask you this?
Yeah.
Does it have a BNC plug on it?
Does the antenna come off and leave you a BNC,
or what is the antenna built on, or does it...?
No, the antenna does have a BNC connector.
Yeah, the smart kind, not the stupid kind
that falls out all the time.
All right.
I think I have a few spare cellular antennas.
I'll solder a, or crimp a BNC on,
and you'll get it in your mailbox at...
Oh, cool.
Yeah, yeah.
I could always use a few extra antennas.
On a glass mount or a elevated feed,
you know, the one you drill a hole.
Do you have anything to drill a hole in?
Do I have anything to drill a hole in?
Well, I don't know if I'm going to drill a hole in my Scout.
Is that what you're asking?
Okay, no, no, no.
No, I'm just trying to decide which one to grab
and put the connector on.
Yeah.
Let me see.
Question.
You know, one of the most nasty types of, you know,
uses of telephones is these cellular phone things.
I know there's, like, a common A and a B band,
and, you know, just the basic A32 service,
but a friend of mine works for a company
that designs for Motorola,
and what I've been trying to find out is,
I hear there's another band.
It should be easy to find out that only police uses it.
Do you know if that's within the cellular phone band
or I heard it was just above it?
Well, the police use 800 megahertz.
They don't use the same frequencies
that the cellular phones use,
but they use it, I believe it's just below,
like, it's around the 850 range, I think.
Yeah.
And supposedly that's supposed to be more secure.
Well, one way it's more secure is by blocking it out
and not allowing people to listen in on that.
Yeah, the question is, is it within the 832 channels?
Because I think there's, like, 1,023 or more channels.
Is it within the usual 832 channels?
As far as, I mean, the cellular phone frequencies,
I don't believe it is within that range.
I believe it's outside that range.
Yeah.
From what I understand.
Because the whole idea is that, you know,
the police now have some super,
essentially what they are is they're, you know,
when you're in your home,
you have a right to listen to anything,
but when you get in your car and actually go
where the police are, you know, committing crimes,
they become, you know, the law thugs.
Right.
You know, they can do whatever they want to you,
and I was thinking that there should be, you know,
if you can hack anything, I think, you know,
the cellular, the police part of the cellular phone
should be the very first thing to be hacked into, you know?
Mm-hmm.
Because they're moving in on us and, you know,
taking away all our personal freedoms.
You know, like, New York State had,
I disconnected my beeper when they came out
with that dollar a month per beeper.
Not per line, but per beeper, you know?
Right.
Tax on a receiver.
Right.
You know, for the whole year and a half
that they were collecting this super fund
in New York State, and New Jersey never had it,
you know, but Jersey had some things to make up for it.
Mm-hmm.
You know?
And, you know, it was the Communications Act of 1934
that you could listen to whatever you wanted to,
you know, basically the FCC when it comes to transmitting
is horrible, you know?
They're the regime.
When it came to receiving,
the Communications Act of 1934 was a mixed blessing
because it gave you total carte blanche to receive
whatever you wanted, whoever, wherever.
You know, there was absolute...
They cut the line in 1934.
They said you can receive anything you want
any way you want it.
That's right.
And all these new laws are against the federal law of the land.
All right, let me get you off before I get too boring, okay?
Okay, thank you very much.
212-279-3407 to be on the air.
Now, 212-279-3400 is our telephone number,
the more important number right now
because we only have three minutes left.
We'd like to see a flurry of phone calls come in,
so please call us now, 212-279-3400.
If you've been waiting for the last minute,
waiting to see if we're going to offer something really, really amazing,
well, we're not.
We're just offering what we've already offered.
So that's...
You can pledge any amount you want.
We take Visa, we take MasterCard.
If you pledge $75, you will get a 2600 subscription for a year
and a soon-to-be-out-of-print T-shirt.
And also, if you pledge $100,
you will get that same 2600 subscription,
but you will also get Masses of Deception,
the hardcover book which came out earlier this year,
talking about some of America's most dangerous hackers.
Isn't that right, Fiber?
Oh, yeah, real dangerous.
Okay.
In fact, you better get this book or...
We'll show you what some of that danger really is.
Yeah, we will, we will.
I'm getting a message.
Do not threaten the listeners.
Okay, we won't do that anymore.
Good evening, you're on the radio.
Hi, Manuel, here we are again.
Wow.
I'm back home.
You're back home, here in New York?
New York City, in Queens.
Oh, boy.
Okay.
Well, you're in Queens, though.
Okay.
I just wanted to say that when you make a call,
like, instead of putting a quarter in a payphone
to make a call to someone,
you could just use the automated operator.
What you do is you make arrangements with someone,
you'll call them, collect,
and then when the automated operator says,
at the tone, say your name,
you just say the phone number of the payphone,
and then they'll hang up and call you back at the payphone.
Oh.
Well, yeah.
We've known about that for years since that came out.
And not only that, people have been doing things like that,
you know, and collect calls,
passing messages along very quickly.
It's kind of old.
Let me ask you a question.
You might actually have the wherewithal to try this one out.
All right, let's say that you make a collect call
to a payphone from another, no, I'm sorry,
not a collect call, a regular phone call
to a payphone from another payphone, okay?
So it asks you to put in, say, 60 cents or whatever.
You put in the 60 cents, you call the other payphone,
the person picks up, all right?
At some point in time, the computer's going to come on
and say, please deposit 25 more cents or whatever
for the next however many minutes.
Now, supposing you go to the other payphone,
that is, the payphone that has been called,
and you simply put a quarter in that payphone,
and it generates the red box tones.
Will those red box tones be picked up by the first payphone,
and will it think that you have, in fact,
put in a quarter in that payphone?
I don't think that will work.
Could you run out and try that for us?
I will try that one time.
Because if you are able...
What I'd like to say is that when my phone
was disconnected upstate at school,
they had this left-in dial tone,
but it was to another phone number.
It wasn't...
Oh, sounds like they just pulled your plug completely
and disconnected you to something else.
But you realize, if you are able to succeed
with that payphone-to-payphone thing,
you will be, in effect, red boxing without a red box.
In fact, you'll be using the phone company to do it,
which I think would be amazing.
I don't think it would work, to be honest.
They give you three-way calling
when your phone's disconnected for some reason.
I'm sorry?
They give you three-way calling...
It's funny.
We're talking about two totally different things
at the same time, aren't we?
Okay.
Well, I just want to say that they give you
three-way calling when your phone's disconnected.
All right.
Well, that's old, too, isn't it?
I don't even think that works anymore.
And if it does...
Well, don't forget, he was up in the North Pole or something.
Well, no, I was in 9X.
Oh, yeah, so?
9X goes to some pretty remote areas.
Well, I just want to mention the new phones at Chemical Bank
that they do not let you make free phone calls anymore
because they...
Because of you, that's why.
Because you mention it every week for a year
on this radio program.
I want to describe them.
You pick it up, and it mutes the mouthpiece,
and it dials the number automatically,
and then it gives you back the mouthpiece.
It mutes, also, the touch stuff.
Mm-hmm.
The touch tones.
It mutes on the mouthpiece until it dials.
How about that?
But you can unplug the phone and plug it back in
after it dials, and you can dial...
Mr. Rebel, you have the last word tonight.
Since we're out of time,
I want you to personally ask people to call in
at the last minute we have and pledge to this radio station.
Okay.
Everybody, if you like the information
that I give out on this program...
No, we want people to call.
Please.
We want people to call...
Yes.
...227-93400 at this last minute
and pledge anything you can.
I'm going to pledge, actually.
I pledge myself to let everyone know.
So we can count on seeing the phone ring at least once
when we disconnect with you.
Okay.
Good.
I'll look forward to that.
Okay.
In fact, maybe I'll run into the other room
just so I can get you a call.
Let's see.
I guess that's it.
Okay.
Well, so far, I guess people are still dialing.
But remember, dial fast or they'll time out on you.
212-279-3400.
Thanks for calling.
Thanks for the information.
And thanks, everybody, for being a part of this.
We did break the 2,000 mark by quite a bit, I'd say.
So I'm pretty happy with that.
Thanks, everybody, for calling.
If you still want some of the special deals we're offering,
please give us a call.
Every little bit counts.
We'll be back again next week with our regular show,
which is an hour in length from 10 to 11 p.m.
Robert Knight.
Is Robert Knight up next?
Or, well, we think he's up next.
Someone's...
Okay.
Something's coming.
Something...
Computer music.
Computer music.
All right.
Okay.
Enough computer talk.
Let's have some computer music.
Until next week, this is Emanuel Goldstein with Fiber Optic.
And everybody else, have a good night.
The telephone keeps ringing
So I ripped it off the wall
I cut myself while shaving
Now I can't make a call
It couldn't get much worse
But if they could, they would
For Billy Bone, for the best, expect the worst
I hope that's understood
For Billy Bone
For Billy Bone
For Billy Bone
For Billy Bone
For Billy Bone
For Billy Bone
The death count is available
My name is Mumia Abu-Dumal.
I'm a journalist, a husband, a father, a grandfather, and an African-American.
I live in the fastest-growing public housing tract in America.
In 1981, I was a reporter for WUHY
and president of the Philadelphia Association of Black Journalists.
Currently, I'm a writer and a public radio commentator.
I've been a resident on Pennsylvania's death row for 11 years.
Now the jury brought in the guilty verdict
And the judge sends me to death
Midnight in a prison storeroom
With leather straps across my chest
The death penalty is available
A celebration of life against the death penalty
Sunday, May 21, from 3 to 5 p.m. in the Great Hall at Cooper Union
For ticket information, please call WBAI at 212-279-0707, extension 127
A celebration of life against the death penalty
And we will seek it
From death row, this is Mumia Abu-Dumal
The death penalty is available
For ticket information, please call WBAI at 212-279-0707