And this is radio station WBAI in New York.
It's off-the-hook time.
And a very good evening to everybody.
The program is off-the-hook, where we talk about the latest involving net stuff.
And phone stuff, and all kinds of other things that come up in the course of our day-to-day
lives.
Which may seem dull and boring, but in actuality, we're frontiers people.
We're on the verge of paving the roads for the future.
Warriors, you might say.
Or perhaps just explorers.
Who's to say really?
But we'll be here for the next hour talking about our adventures, sharing your adventures,
and hopefully making some key policy decisions.
Stay tuned.
Well, with this dramatic intro, I guess, is the best way to put it.
What better way than to herald the coming of something new, something incredible.
Something that one might consider to be a milestone, if you keep track of such things.
I'm talking about, I'm talking about a book.
That's right, a brand new book.
A book that we knew was coming.
A book we knew we had very little that we could do to prevent.
But a book which, nonetheless, will turn the heads of many, and change the lives of a few,
I guess.
The book centers around the events we first reported here back in, what was it, March?
Earlier this year, when Kevin Mitnick was caught by the authorities in North Carolina.
And boy, oh boy, what a story it was.
So good a story that you knew they'd write a book about it.
Well, they did.
The book is about to come out.
Would you like to know the title?
The title is called, get ready for this, Take Down.
Take Down the Pursuit and Capture of America's Most Wanted Computer Criminal.
Written by Tsutomu Shimomura with John Markoff.
The world-renowned computer security expert Tsutomu Shimomura gives his personal account
of his thrilling and ingenious capture of the internet's most notorious cyber thief.
A gripping drama, illuminating the good, bad, and ugly of the computer world.
Kevin Mitnick became the most wanted hacker in history by stealing millions of dollars
worth of information from government, corporate, and university computer systems, while evading
federal authorities for more than two years.
But he made a fatal, fatal mistake when he broke into the home computer of a computer
security expert, Tsutomu Shimomura, on Christmas Day.
Shimomura decided enough was enough.
He was going to bring Mitnick, once and for all, to justice.
The subsequent chronicle of the battle between Shimomura and Mitnick mesmerized the nation.
Remember that? We were all mesmerized, garnering front page stories. Remember those front page
stories that were garnered? I remember those. As we were all memorized, reading the garnered
front page stories. And there were features in all the major news media. That's right.
Finally, oh at last, finally, at long last, Shimomura is breaking his silence to collect
his check and tell the story the country is waiting to hear.
Takedown, the pursuit and capture of America's most wanted computer criminal, is Shimomura's
own electrifying narrative of the battle that has become a real-life epic for the computer
era, from the computer industry legend who has emerged as a new kind of hero of the information
age.
Takedown, a martial arts term, meaning a maneuver that forces a standing opponent to the floor,
is an unprecedentedly, an unprecedentedly detailed look at life.
With big words like that, you know this is going to be a big seller here. Unprecedentedly
detailed look at life. I can probably say that without thinking about it now. Unprecedentedly,
yes. It's a detailed look at life on the electronic frontier and the opposing forces who stake
their claim to it.
Relying on his wits and his own original high-tech weaponry, Shimomura had Mitnick offline and
apprehended in less than two months, handcuffed and behind bars.
Their face-off awakened millions to the way in which our powerful new technology has made
us more vulnerable than ever before to attacks by computer-savvy outlaws like Mitnick, although
they say Metnick here. I don't know why, unless there's another outlaw named Metnick somewhere.
Yes, and to our indebtedness to figures like Shimomura, hail Shimomura, who believe in
privacy and order and defend them with sheer brainpower.
Assisted by New York Times reporter John Markoff, whose lucid coverage of computer issues has
made him one of the most respected journalists covering the field, Shimomura also offers
clear and insightful explanations of how cyberspace works and the problems and controversies it
has introduced.
Reaching across an entire continent and involving organizations like the FBI, the Justice Department,
and telephone and security officials, Takedown is a fascinating portrait of an unfamiliar
world in which we must all eventually learn to survive.
Again, the book is called Takedown, the Pursuit and Capture of America's Most Wanted Computer
Criminal, and it's going to be out real soon.
But I don't think Kevin Mitnick will be out real soon, because he's still in prison over
there in California, facing charges of, well, gosh, I really don't know what. They won't
really tell us. He's just locked away in a safe place where he won't bother any of
us. And we may never hear his story, but we'll try and find out what really happened.
That's the story as far as what's coming on the electronic frontier. Yet another story.
Yet another. And I'm sure there'll be a film, too. You know, they always couple these things
with films so that they cover all bases. And a TV miniseries, and who knows what else
after that.
No new news on the Bernie Yes saga. I'm not sure if we'll be hearing from him tonight.
I'm certainly going to try to make contact with him in federal prison over there in New
Jersey. Again, his court date is set for September 8th, which I believe is a Monday. And, well,
maybe it's a Tuesday. No, actually, I'm sorry, it's a Friday. And his bail hearing is set
for a day before that, September 7th. Gives you an idea of how fair things are when they
set your bail hearing to be a day before. A day before the trial, and they keep you
in prison for, what, six months or so? See if he's here. Are you there?
Ah.
Ah.
Bernie Yes, are you there? How you doing?
It's funny, we just mentioned your name, almost as if on cue, you called just as we mentioned
your name. We were talking about the new book that's coming out by John Markoff and Shitomo
Shimomura. It's called Takedown, the Pursuit and Capture of America's Most Wanted Computer
Criminal. But it's not you.
That's good.
Yeah. That's going to be another book, I guess. I don't know who's going to be responsible
for your takedown, but...
Is this book in print now?
Well, it's on the way to being in print.
Have you read the rough draft or anything like that?
No, I haven't seen a bit of it. In fact, this is being circulated to various media outlets,
and that's how I got my hands on that. So it's going to be 256 pages, hardcover, and
it'll be available in the United States, Canada, and the Philippines.
Wow. From the press kit, do you get a general idea on what the angle is, what their take
or...?
Well, their take is that Shitomo Shimomura is a hero, is a genius, is, well, dare I say
it, a god, and that Kevin Mitnick, or Metnick, depending on which line you believe, is, well,
I guess Satan is the best way to say it.
Me?
I mean, let's not beat around the bush here. Satan is really what we're getting to.
Right, I'm not the subject.
And not the good Satan that's on the net, either. This is the real Satan.
Not the subject of the book.
Not Satan himself, but an agent of Satan. You understand.
Uh-huh.
Yeah. Satan works in mysterious and confusing ways.
As do all deities.
That's right. That's right. So, what's been new with you in the last week over there in federal prison?
Well, my trial date is winding down, or the time I have to wait until my trial is winding down.
Uh-huh.
It's scheduled for September 8th.
Okay.
Philadelphia. I don't have the exact time or the courtroom number yet. That will be forthcoming.
I'll call next week's program and let everyone know. I should know by then.
The day prior to my trial date, September 7th, I have a bail hearing where ostensibly I'll be released on bail
so I can get a haircut or something before I show up for my trial.
I see. You look presentable.
Yes. I will have been incarcerated for almost six months by the time I have my trial,
and I still haven't been convicted of anything.
Incredible.
Well, that's the way the justice system works, I guess.
At least Kevin Mitnick was charged with something pretty soon after he was arrested,
but he had a chance to plead, had a chance to do something.
Yeah. I was here, as you're aware, I was here for many weeks before I even had an indictment.
So, it can happen.
Uh-huh.
Ostensibly, the government considered me a great danger based on certain reading materials I had at my home
and considered me a risk of flight and a danger to the community,
although I've never been even accused of committing any act of violence
and I've never owned any weapons or anything like that in my entire life.
Well, if we're moving into a society where we're judged on our reading material
and what you find in our library and on our computers,
it's going to be a pretty oppressive regime for a lot of us ahead.
At my initial arraignment, federal arraignment,
the judge lambasted me for my selection of reading materials, as a matter of fact.
Really?
He sort of scowled at me and then read off some of the titles that I'd had,
and I just decided not to respond because I thought in that environment
or in the courtroom at that moment,
anything I said would have probably used against me,
so I just decided to keep my mouth shut.
So, we're in this Fahrenheit 451 society now,
where we're judged on the books in our library
and we're held accountable for their titles and everything that's said within them.
I felt like telling the judge,
Well, Your Honor, if you don't like my choice of reading material,
why don't you just decide to burn the books?
Yeah, exactly.
Maybe they did.
You don't know for sure what they did with those books.
I don't know what the government did with any of the property that he seized from my home.
There was about a nine-page list of materials that were seized from my home,
electronic equipment, computers, books, 2600 magazine issues, that sort of thing.
Yeah.
So, I don't know what will become of that property.
Hopefully, I'll be able to get it all back when this is over,
but as you're aware and most listeners are aware,
people who are charged with computer crimes
rarely are reunited with their equipment after it's all over.
That's true, although equipment was never really considered to be books before.
That's true. That's true.
So, I'm not counting on anything.
I'm just going to take things a day at a time and see how it goes.
Yeah.
Okay, we have a whole pile of mail that's going to be going out to you, actually.
People have been emailing us at bernies at 2600.com,
so you have a pile of mail there.
Have you been getting mail from our listeners?
I've been getting it sporadically.
Sporadic.
A few days after I am on the air, I get a flurry of letters,
and I want to thank—I can't thank everyone personally because there are a number of people,
but I want to thank everyone collectively for their encouragement and their letters
because it helps a lot because you're very isolated when you're in a place like this.
Yeah, and that's the idea of a prison, is to keep you away from society,
to keep you away from people, from your friends,
and hopefully we can make this ordeal as painless as possible for you
by doing something as simple as just writing a letter,
even if you don't know who Bernie S. is.
That's right. It doesn't matter.
This could be somebody that is very similar to you.
You're interested in this radio program.
You're interested in the things we talk about.
That, in their eyes, believe it or not—it sounds crazy,
but that in their eyes is enough to label you as a suspicious person,
and we know that they're very upset about this radio program.
We know they're upset that you're appearing on the radio waves,
and they're trying to put a stop to that, but so far that has not happened.
For the fact that the Secret Service is listening to this program as we speak.
Yeah. Hi, guys. How are you doing?
Mind if you go chase some real criminals someplace?
The thing is, we've reached this stage where people are being suspected left and right
simply based on the way they look, the way they act,
as far as fairly innocuous things like who they hang out with
and what their interests are, what they read,
what kinds of bulletin boards they call,
what kinds of things on the Internet they read.
It's really kind of crazy.
It's kind of this attempt to find criminals before they become criminals.
Many of my friends were questioned by Secret Service agents after my arrest,
and some of the questions they were asked were related to
what are my political leanings and political beliefs,
and a couple of my friends said,
Well, you don't want to know what I think about these topics.
So one of the questions is,
What does he think about the President of the United States?
What does he think about various other public officials?
And what political party?
So if you're critical of the President of the United States or other public officials,
that would be bad for you. Is that the idea?
I don't know what exactly the Secret Service agents were getting at,
but they were asking questions of people who know me
about my political leanings, political beliefs,
and what I thought about the President.
How amazing.
We were amazed years ago by the way the FBI and the Secret Service
bungled operations involving hackers and how they made all these assumptions,
but this is reaching far beyond that.
This is going into the very depths of your mind.
Your political thoughts, the books you read.
Who knows what else?
They'll do a brain scan or something and figure out what's in there.
I think these federal agencies would have learned something from these previous cases
when they were really criticized by federal judges for their behavior,
but it seems like they're getting worse.
Yeah.
To update people, in case you're wondering just who the hell this guy is,
Bernie S. has been in prison since, what is it, March?
March 15th.
March 15th, and the charges are basically possession of a red box.
Actually, two counts of possession of a red box, isn't it?
Yes, that's correct.
All right, and one count of possession of software.
Computer program, yes.
Yeah, and software in the form of a computer program
which can be used to modify cellular phones,
and these are things that so many people have access to.
In the past, we understood that having pirated software,
stuff that you're not allowed to have,
a copy of, say, AT&T's login.c or whatever,
even though it seems kind of silly,
we at least understood that they considered that to be a crime
because they placed a value of several billion dollars on it for whatever reason,
and it was a crime to have that.
But now they're saying that we can't even write software if they don't like what it does.
So if you're caught with software on you that they consider to be bad,
well, that's a crime too.
That's worthy of prison without bail.
One would think that the First Amendment would apply,
but evidently the First Amendment does not apply to computer software
as far as freedom of speech is concerned, at least in my case.
The federal statute I'm charged with in regards to possession of a computer program,
which a friend and I put together,
I lost my train of thought there.
Oh, they're not accusing me of committing any fraud with this program.
Oh, that's what I was getting at.
The statute I'm charged with related to this possession of this program
has not been tested in any court in the land yet.
I am the government's test case.
So should this case go to trial, which is very likely, we'll have to see.
One of the arguments my attorney plans to introduce at the trial
is that this law is unconstitutional.
Absolutely, absolutely.
And also it's misleading to say that the computer program itself was a criminal tool
because this computer program has many legitimate uses
and is the reason why people would want to have a copy of this.
It's not for committing crimes.
You can use all kinds of tools to commit crimes, true.
This particular program does not in and of itself allow you to commit a crime.
Cellular fraud is a big problem, and illegal cellular cloning is a big problem,
which a lot of people are aware, including myself.
But the software in and of itself does not give anyone the ability
to gain access to other people's accounts.
One would still have to steal other people's account numbers to commit cellular fraud,
and our software does not allow anyone to do that.
Okay, that's an important distinction.
Let's give your address out so people who feel compelled will write to you
and help you feel a little bit better as far as being locked away there.
Great. My name is Ed Cummings, C-U-M-M-I-N-G-S,
and my inmate number, which goes right after my name, is 48919-066.
And the second line in the address is F-C-I, as in Federal Correctional Institution,
and the third line is Fairton, F-A-I-R-T-O-N.
The third line is right after Fairton, the letter A, capital A, dash left, L-E-F-T.
That's the housing unit I'm in here at the compound.
The third line is P.O. Box 420.
And the last line is Fairton, New Jersey, 08320.
I think that's the zip code.
I'm going to send you something snail mail.
Anyone who wants to write me, even if they don't know me,
they just want to ramble on about what they think about this case,
please write me.
Any magazines they can mail me are very appreciated.
Bear in mind, though, that anything that's mailed to me will be read by federal authorities.
And that includes the stuff that you send to the e-mail address,
BernieS at 2600.com, because we have to mail that through U.S. Post,
and you can't just log into a terminal and read it.
It gets snail mailed anyway.
I got a prepaid phone card in the mail today.
Can you use those?
I didn't actually get it.
The person who wrote me included it as a joke, I guess.
He said he had gotten it in a pack of razor blades that he'd purchased.
Really?
A promotional item.
I wonder what the card looked like.
I didn't actually get to see it.
There was a yellow slip in the envelope, which had been opened from the Federal Bureau of Prisons' censors,
saying that this material was confiscated for not being, how was it, worded,
not in keeping with the safe and orderly operation of the institution.
Well, yeah, who knows what you could do with a calling card.
The phone system here does not allow you to place calling card calls anyway,
but they felt it was a dangerous thing to have, so I was not prevented from having it.
Was the information dangerous, or was the physical card dangerous?
No, they didn't actually say.
So suppose they could have argued that it could be used as a weapon, perhaps,
like that character Oddjob in the James Bond movies who would throw a hat.
I guess you could throw a card.
Wasn't there a TV series called The Magician where a guy would throw cards around and cause all kinds of damage?
And, you know, they wind up in precisely the kind of facility you're in.
Probably.
Those kind of criminals, so you'd better be careful.
So anyhow, whoever was kind enough to send me that card, thank you.
They will be receiving it back in the mail from the federal censors.
And that was the one-minute warning.
We have one minute left with Bernie S. here off the hook tonight.
Any concluding comments?
Well, I'd like to report that my digestive system is slowly coming back to normal again.
I had quite a bout with the prison diet here, but I think my body is getting used to it.
I look forward to getting used to real food in the near future,
so perhaps in a couple of weeks I'll be eating pizza and normal things.
That would be great.
And cheesesteaks and things like that.
Hey, give us a call after the show.
We have some info for you.
I will do that.
I don't know if I'll be able to get access to a phone.
There are other people waiting, but I will try.
I'll elbow you a way in or else give us a call later.
Thanks.
Okay.
Take care.
Good luck to you.
Take care.
Bye-bye.
And that's the latest from the federal pen over there in New Jersey.
The ongoing story of Bernie S.
Been following it since March.
Incredible how things progress or don't progress or regress or what have you.
FiberOptic, glad you could make it.
Glad to be here.
What's new with you this week?
Wandering around the free world you are.
Yeah, really.
In keeping up with the never-ending battle for ISDN, I was.
Are you still battling with ISDN?
Do you realize you condemned forever some kind of mythical figure wandering the earth in search of ISDN?
Do you realize that?
Well, here's the story.
If anybody recalls last week, I mentioned the quest for a caller ID in ISDN.
How I was originally told that, oh, no, it's included with basic service.
You shouldn't be billed for it.
Well, lo and behold, when I received my phone bill, I had a charge for the installation and the monthly bill for caller ID.
For something you're supposed to have anyway.
Yeah, so I called up to complain.
I got a call back from NYNEX saying, oh, no, I don't know who would have told you that, but it definitely costs extra to get caller ID.
So they completely reversed what they originally told me.
Okay, so what's the official story now?
Is this included or is it not included?
Currently, as of right now.
1030 p.m. Wednesday night.
The official story is that caller ID is still extra on ISDN, just like on a normal phone.
It's extra, okay.
So it's not included.
Not included.
All right.
That may change next week, but we'll find out.
Depends who you talk to.
You need to get the names of everybody that tells you these things.
Yeah, I do, actually.
Have you ever had a case where NYNEX tells you something, and the next day they tell you the exact opposite?
Yeah, but it's really funny because the person I talk to the next day says, well, I don't know why that person would have told you that.
Because they're malicious.
They're stupid.
They're out to destroy everything that NYNEX stands for.
You need to find this person and weed them out.
That's what you need to tell them.
That's pretty incredible.
But your ISDN line is working?
Oh, yeah.
Everything's working fine.
In fact, in the next week or so, I plan to order an ISDN telephone and all kinds of ISDN custom calling features.
Is your apartment big enough for an ISDN telephone?
I understand.
They need to have a special room of their own.
My wallet's big enough.
ISDN telephones, the cheapest you could find them right now is typically between $200 and $300.
Really?
But, of course, they do a lot more than a normal telephone.
That's a super-duper telephone.
Yeah, $200, $300.
What does it do?
Actually, it looks a lot like an office phone.
It has a whole bunch of feature keys on it and a little display for call progress and caller ID info.
Who makes the phone?
There's lots of different manufacturers.
Actually, over the past few weeks, I've been really looking into it.
The best phones that I could find for the money and for the features are made by a company in Florida called Lodestar.
And Lodestar telephones are sanctioned by Northern Telecom, which is where I originally found them on Northern Telecom's worldwide website.
Okay.
There's feature keys on the telephone.
It comes with some of them pre-programmed, like for hold.
Typically, I mentioned in the past, you would order what's known as call appearances in multiples of 10.
And call appearances basically allow you to receive or place up to 10 calls simultaneously in combination of putting people on hold and so forth.
Along with that, you can program the feature keys to do things like call transferring and call forwarding and things of that nature.
And, of course, conference calling, three-way or six-way conferencing.
So, it seems like it could be a lot of fun.
Sounds good.
And we've got some exciting news ourselves.
It appears so.
I finally got around to ordering what you have now, which is a BitSurfer, which actually allows you to do things on the net involving ISDN.
So, it looks like within the next week or so, we'll be moving 2600.com over to ISDN, which means basically an increase in speed from 28.8 to what, 56?
To 56 initially.
Initially.
And hopefully double that.
Yeah, hopefully.
In the future.
Yeah, if the service provider decides to offer bonding.
That's right.
So, that'll certainly change things.
That'll be fun.
I want to speed things up quite a bit and make us ready for the 21st century.
All those nice things.
Hey, we had an incident at 2600.com.
You want to talk about this a little bit?
It's not what you consider a hack, right?
Oh, right, yeah.
We had our first encounter with something that could have been bad.
And this is after, what, 160 days of not being hacked?
Yeah, 160 days.
I mean, we don't consider this being hacked.
But basically, I guess what somebody did was, and actually it was a system administrator that did this.
That's the embarrassing thing.
They made an account with a very easily guessable password.
And guess what?
Someone guessed the password and they were able to not log in.
They weren't able to log in because we used slogin, which you need a passphrase for.
It encrypts your session so you can't sniff it.
But you could FTP to it.
So, you could FTP in and use that easily guessable password.
And there you were inside somebody's account, someone who didn't really exist.
But what you could do is you could move around within the system and download other files that were readable.
And a couple of people on the system left their accounts, left their directories a little bit too open,
where people could just sort of rummage around and see what kind of files were in there.
We had, I think, two accounts that were accessed in that manner.
The accounts themselves weren't accessed, but a few files were.
We caught it pretty quickly.
The really embarrassing thing was we caught it because of a tip from two people on AOL.
I mean, you can't get more embarrassed than that.
But, I don't know, what are your impressions?
Is this a fairly typical thing to have happen?
Well, it's a fairly typical thing that can happen if people are careless.
Obviously, we're not exactly sure who left that account laying around.
Right.
But, I mean, it might possibly help to run a password cracker.
I mean, although you wouldn't think to do something like that because you're shadowing your password file.
That's right. That's right.
But, obviously, we found a reason to run a password cracker on a shadowed password file.
Yeah. I mean, if someone's going to make something that easily guessable,
then you're going to have to take some precautions of various sorts.
But, you know, I guess the lesson this drives home is that even if you use something like DeskLogin,
which encrypts your session, it doesn't apply to FTP.
Right.
They'll copy files and your password will be sent blindly.
So, that's something that we're warning our users about.
But, now, we don't consider this a hack. Why not?
Well, it's not really a hack simply because nothing was actually hacked in order for the person to have gained access.
And they didn't really gain access to your system with any special privileges.
Somebody simply getting an account and logging into a machine
doesn't really entail any kind of hacking in the strict sense of the word,
or even in a looser sense of the word.
If, on the other hand, the person was able to guess the password
and then further their privileges on the machine,
and then possibly even log in with privileges,
then, obviously, that would have been a hack.
Or if someone was even able to gain shell access, even as a normal user,
it would be a hack simply because you don't allow shell access to normal users from the outside
unless they use DesLogin, which requires a password.
The only way they could have gotten on is if they knew that password,
which would have entailed a hack not necessarily on your machine,
but on another machine where someone was using DesLogin.
They could have backdoored the program and so on.
But that would have counted as a hack.
Oh, yeah. That would have, yeah.
Okay, so if you finger our site, it still says we've been unhacked for 160-plus days,
and that's the reason why.
While we recognize the attempt and we acknowledge our carelessness, I guess, in some regard,
it's not quite exactly what was defined as a hack in our point of view,
but it's the closest yet, right?
It's the closest yet.
Well, it's about 36 minutes past 10 o'clock, so we're going to go over to the telephones,
and our phone line is, of course, as always, 212-279-3400.
There is one line on our bank of phones which doesn't work, but it still rings.
So there's one unfortunate person that's going to be ringing but won't get through.
There's no way to tell who that person is because we can't talk to them,
so that's just the nature of the BAI phone system.
All right, 212-279-3400. Good evening. You're on the air.
Hello, Emanuel.
How are you doing?
Very well. Something occurred to me. I have a question. This might be something for fiber optic.
Okay.
When there's a CCIS channel failure, do the switches usually default to MF signaling?
Yeah, that would definitely be a fiber question.
Well, first of all, we don't use CCIS anymore.
Well, even if the SS7, because I know this, how would you have SS7 going into 1As?
Actually, you don't.
You're correct in assuming that on the older analog switches like 1 and 1A ESSs,
they are still using analog multi-frequency signaling. That is correct.
Are 1As still used on those things?
I thought the 1A, because it was upgraded in the mid-70s,
I realized that the processor is similar to that, which is using the 5 ESS,
that the processor was upgraded with new electronics to handle CCIS data traffic
while retaining the metallic loops in the old analog system.
Well, you heard slightly incorrectly. They never used the CCIS within any of the regional bells.
CCIS came about in 1976 along with the number 4 ESS and the 1A ESS.
CCIS was only ever used on 4 ESSs on the AT&T long-distance network,
which was later replaced with SS7 in the mid-80s.
SS7 was only recently introduced into the regional bells, specifically in 9X, only around 1990.
Prior to that, all of 9X was using multi-frequency signaling.
A friend of mine who lives in my area had reported seeing a lot of fiber-optic cables
being laid out in various places. He was working for an armored car agency.
I remember seeing a whole lot of that going around.
You mean in New York City?
No, the Bill Atlantic area.
Oh, okay. It's probably just as right, because most of 9X now, at least in Manhattan,
there's tons of fiber-optics underground.
And more and more they're replacing fiber-optics, or rather replacing copper cables with fiber-optics
for the inter-office trunks that voice conversations are being carried over.
Because since we've gotten SS7, practically all calls, whether they're ISDN calls or not,
are actually carried as ISDN calls over the SS7 network.
Whether people were aware of that or not, to take full advantage of SS7 itself.
So if there's still a 1s, 1a, or any kind of analog type of switch,
even though under digital control, they're still using multi-frequency signaling?
Yeah, they still would be. This is correct.
In fact, you know, this is the case, because if you're served by a 1 or a 1a ESS,
you can't order any of the class custom calling features, what 9X calls phone smart.
I'd have to disagree with that. I'm served on a 1a.
I get to double-click before the dial tone and double-click before I connect with anyone.
But I can get, I already have a caller ID on my line.
But you're 9X or Bell Atlantic?
Bell Atlantic.
Bell Atlantic's policy is different.
In fact, Bell Atlantic opted on retrofitting all the 1a ESSs to be SS7 connected.
This is not true in 9X.
Well, that's an interesting fact, really.
You can get caller ID in a 1a in New Jersey, but not in New York.
Anywhere in Bell Atlantic, in what used to be C&P Bell.
Sure.
How about that?
Now, when you say that they still use MF signaling on a 1a, it's still out-of-band signaling, right?
It's not sent over the same path as the voice.
No, it's in-band. It's MF in-band, only it's filtered.
Really?
Yeah.
How is it filtered, then?
It's filtered, actually, on the trunks.
In the past, you might recall, if you were served by a 1 or a 1a, you'd place a call,
and in the background, if it was an inter-office call, you might hear a little flurry of MF tones.
Right.
That was true as recently as maybe 6 or 7 years ago.
With the introduction of SS7, the offices that still aren't SS7 connected, the 1a ESSs mainly,
are still using multi-frequency signaling.
What they're doing is they simply filter the MF tones so that you can't actually hear them as the calls are being connected.
There were a few DMS-100s that didn't filter those tones, I remember, as recently as about 5 years ago,
and they would call it the sound of technology at work.
That's kind of funny.
Yeah.
It's a good way to not have to pay for the filters.
Yeah.
Thanks for the call.
All right, thanks. Bye.
All right, take care.
212-279-3400, good evening. You're on Off The Hook.
Hi, I'm glad I got through.
Two questions.
First, I just was curious about you two guys in terms of, in the real world, how you get your moolah.
I believe Fiber, you're working for a telecommunications company, is that correct?
Actually, I'm consulting for an advertisement design company.
I hope they're a socially responsible company.
Yeah, I guess they're socially responsible.
Okay, and Emmanuel, is 2600 your entire existence?
I'm mostly a plumber, but yeah, it's that too.
Well, plumber in the Nixonian sense or in the Drano sense?
Well, you'll just have to come to terms with that yourself.
I'm not going to go into more details on that.
And after the serious...
I fix leaks, that's what I do.
The serious part of my call, I can't believe Secret Service agents are listening,
so you better just call me Lee Harvey, but I won't use my real name.
Anyway, I wanted to talk a little bit about credit card companies.
I had quite a few, and I declared bankruptcy.
I still have a few that I owe money on.
I was curious in terms of for late payments,
they have my home number, unfortunately,
and they're constantly calling me sometimes within two or three days
where I have to tell them the same information.
So I was wondering, number one,
is there any sort of procedure or protocol to use
when credit card companies call for late payments?
And number two, in terms of threatening to call collection agencies
or take you to court, how much of that is a bluff,
and how much of the time do they actually go to hire lawyers
and go to where you live and take you to court and demand full payment?
I'll hang up and let you ruminate on that for a while.
Okay, it depends entirely on how much you owe.
If we're talking about a CD club or something,
usually they don't really go.
They send you a lot of notices with parking tickets in New York City.
I'm sure I don't have to tell people that you get all kinds of notices
from all these bureaus and agencies that you've never heard of before,
sheriffs and marshals and who knows who else.
They all send you these notices saying,
you know, if you don't reply in 10 days,
then we're going to send it over to the commissioner,
and then he's going to be really upset, and he's going to do this and that.
They can chain your car to the street.
They can take your wages that you've never earned.
They can do all kinds of horrible things,
make your life miserable for two lifetimes,
but they never actually do anything.
They just keep sending you letters, and by the time they ever get anywhere,
they've more than spent the amount that you owe, usually,
just sending you those letters.
With credit card companies, it depends.
Credit card companies themselves, you really don't want to mess with them too much.
Visa, MasterCard, American Express.
Because they have access to your credit file.
They can make it show up as a permanent blotch on your TRW
because you didn't pay this bill,
and that's something that's going to come back to haunt you, even if it's small.
Credit card companies tend to not let these things drop as easily.
But, you know, small-time things,
like, you know, owing something for a book club or a record club,
they tend not to pursue it.
Now, I'm not saying people should go out there and rip these companies off
and, you know, get away with things, because sometimes they do pursue it.
It really depends on how much you owe,
how notorious you are for doing this kind of thing,
and, you know, all kinds of other...
Maybe the person's in a bad mood that day, who's in charge of these things,
and he just wants to make an example of you.
That's something you really should mess around with too much.
There are people who are experts in this kind of thing that do this for a living, almost,
but I'm certainly not one of those.
Well, I don't have any credit cards yet myself,
and I'm trying to hold off as long as I can
before I feel like I absolutely need one.
You don't like credit cards, huh?
No, I don't like leaving a trail every time I buy something.
I believe in anonymous cash.
Anonymous cash? You must have something to hide.
All my purchases, they're out there for everybody to analyze and scrutinize.
Where I am, what I buy, how I buy it,
you know, my taste in films and books, everything.
It's all out there to be displayed.
A walking billboard of information is what I am.
Good evening, you're on off the hook.
Okay, well, that was your moment.
Good evening, you're on off the hook.
Oh, hi.
How are you doing?
I want to let you know that the Call 54 service is active in New Jersey.
Okay, define what that is for us, please.
That's essentially a CNA service.
You dial the telephone number.
You can request up to three per call,
and they will read back the name and address that's on their records
for the owner of that telephone account.
Is it a live person, or is it a recording?
It's a recording.
It's a recording.
You don't have three-way by any chance, do you?
No, I don't.
Too bad.
All right, now, if the number is unlisted, what does it say?
If the number is unlisted, it says that number,
and it repeats back the digits, is not listed for this service.
Okay, and if the number is an invalid number,
did you try that, a number that doesn't exist?
I didn't try that.
I tried three of my own phone numbers, two of which are unlisted,
one of which I requested that they not list.
And that comes back a little differently.
That says, at the customer's request, the number, blah, blah, blah,
is not available through this service.
And they give the name and the address, the full address, zip code and everything?
I believe that's the way it works, yeah.
And what's the charge for this?
I think it's 50 cents for up to three.
That's quite a service there.
Yeah, it's active.
I believe it's active in 201 and 908 right now.
And the actual number is a seven-digit number.
It's 555-5454.
So you dial 555-5454.
Right.
And then you get the ringing and you get the little record announcement,
thank you for calling, press pound for explanation,
and it goes through the explanation.
And then it lets you dial the number, and you can do that up to three times.
And then it says thanks for calling.
You used up your three.
Okay.
Well, thanks for the info.
This really isn't anything new as far as the information being available.
It just hasn't been available to people before.
It's always been available to companies, phone companies,
people who buy those CD-ROMs, things like that.
But this makes it a little bit easier,
although, of course, it's something else that you'd be paying a charge for.
Yeah, I'm interested to see.
They're probably going to bill me the 50 cents,
even though they did not succeed in delivering any numbers.
I'm sure they will.
It's 555-5454 in 201.
That's right.
I believe it's 201 or 908, and you dial it normally without an area code.
You might want to try it from out of state, but I don't know if it will work.
That's exactly what I'm going to try.
Thank you very much for the info.
All right.
We're going to give that a shot.
What do you think?
I don't know if we can call Jersey from here, but we're going to try it.
Let's see if we can get a phone.
Any phones out there?
Ah, here we go.
All right.
555-5454.
How's that stupid tone?
All right.
We're going to have to do this a different way.
Farber, why don't you talk about something while I try and dial this in my sneaky way.
Gee, I don't know what to talk about.
Well, I guess we could talk about how you're dialing that in your own sneaky way.
Well, yeah, it's my own sneaky way.
Well, actually.
Okay, your time's up.
Okay, good.
Let's see what happens.
You have dialed an insufficient number of digits.
Oh, I did not.
That's just wrong.
You're going to have to talk again while I start all over again.
Why don't we talk about how you dialed an insufficient number of digits?
I don't understand how that's possible.
Well, of course I can't hear what I'm doing.
That's part of the reason.
You're not supposed to listen to what I'm dialing.
Oh, okay, sorry.
You done dialing?
Well, I'm done dialing the first part.
Oh, okay, there's more.
There's a lot more.
Give us a...
Well, actually, I was thinking why don't you take all your CD-ROMs that you have.
Thank you.
We're sorry.
Your call cannot be completed as dialed.
Please check the area code or number and dial again.
1T201.
He sounded sincere, but...
He sounded like he wasn't exactly sure what you should check.
What, 1T201? It shouldn't be 201-1T?
We're sorry.
It sounds like he said it backwards, too.
He sure did.
This guy is confused.
Please check the area code.
He doesn't even get that part right.
Yeah, he's not really sure.
Check the area code.
Check something.
1T201.
So 1T meaning what?
Explain this to us.
1T is actually the tandem office that it would go through through...
Beep.
Ooh.
Ooh.
Yes?
Yes?
That's actually the switch that it goes through for long distance,
typically through AT&T.
All right.
We're going to try 908 now.
Beep.
Beep.
Beep.
Beep.
Beep.
Beep.
There he is again.
We're sorry.
Your call cannot...
I think he's going to say 1T908 this time.
Yeah.
Please check the area code or number and dial again.
1T201.
Uh-uh.
Okay.
He did not.
Well, that's interesting.
We'll have to try some other methods.
That was only through one company.
Yeah.
I don't know.
Maybe they just don't allow it from out of state.
Hmm.
Okay.
Let's take another phone call.
Good evening.
You're on the air.
Okay.
That was your moment.
Good evening.
You're on the air.
Oh, hello.
This call is similar to the second call.
Yeah, it is rather similar now that you mention it.
Yeah, only this guy's voice sounds different.
It sounds a little different, yeah.
But you can tell he's still on the phone.
Okay.
Hello?
Yes, go ahead.
Yeah, if you owe AT&T some money and you haven't paid their bill,
can you then switch to another long-distance company
and it doesn't affect anything as far as the new company is concerned?
Yeah, you can do that.
Only your normal phone service is most likely going to be disconnected.
Well, it's 9X or the local company.
The local company is the one that makes that decision.
Right.
As far as cutting off your long distance.
Oh, really?
So they won't let you just switch to another long-distance company.
Now, you can always get a calling card or something like that
through another long-distance company.
They won't care.
But as far as dialing 1+,
if your long-distance service has been cut off for whatever reason,
they're not going to permit you to just switch to another long-distance company.
Really?
Because you have hundreds.
You can go through hundreds of them and leave a trail of debt behind you.
Yeah.
Oh, I didn't know that.
Because I asked MCI, for instance,
and they said they don't even look at the previous billing records.
No, they don't look at it.
But, you see, the block is on 9X's end.
And they will block carrier access code 1+, or 1+, long distance.
So you'd have to go through MCI's calling card,
which has a surcharge of about, what, 75 cents per call,
which is a bit much.
Now, you know, on the other side,
9X won't cut off your local calling because of a long-distance bill.
So, you know, you have that advantage.
Yeah, that's right.
I do have 9X local calls.
Yeah.
I'm not sure if 950s are affected by that.
They might be.
I was hanging out with a friend of mine in California,
and he had not paid his phone bill, his long-distance bill,
and 950s were not accessible.
Only dial 1-800, nothing else.
You could dial local, and you could dial 1-800.
What is 950?
950 is a way of accessing long-distance companies
and entering a very short code, usually,
and not having a surcharge attached to it.
It was meant for people before equal access existed
so that you could choose a long-distance company.
Uh-huh.
So you're not sure if that's affected or not?
It is in at least one place.
In California it is.
I don't know if it is here.
Perhaps some people that haven't paid their long-distance bill
could tell us that.
How would I find out?
Don't pay your long-distance bill, and you'll find out.
I don't know.
They're probably not going to tell you the right information.
If you ask them, will 950s be affected,
A, they won't even know what 950s are,
and B, they'll probably get it wrong.
Uh-huh.
If I ask any company?
Well, 9X would be the only one that would be able to tell you
because it's their policy.
I see.
Well, that's all very interesting.
Okay.
Thank you.
Glad we could help.
I hope he pays his long-distance bill, though.
You know, it's important to do that.
Good evening, Yaron.
Yes, good evening.
I just want to let you know that an emergency call is $8,
and to verify number 4, what is your take on that?
$8?
Yes, I just found that out today.
If you want to place an emergency call, $8.
$8 for an emergency?
Is this local or long-distance?
Right now, I know that's long-distance,
but I'm not sure what it would be local.
But I still think that's a bit overboard.
Oh, it's crazy.
I remember when those things used to be free.
They used to be free.
Yeah, they used to be totally free,
and information used to be free.
Yeah, it's $8.
And if you want to verify any number to find out if it's working,
if it's off the hook, it's $4.
Well, that's unbelievable.
Find out what company that is that told you that,
because that seems well above what it should cost.
Yeah, I just found that out today, and I was shocked.
I was surprised.
I've never heard of anything like that before.
I'm pretty shocked right now that you're telling me this.
So shocked, in fact, that we're going to launch a little investigation here.
Okay, thank you.
All right, thanks for letting us know about that.
This is something that deserves to be known if it is, in fact, true.
You agree?
Sure.
All right, so let's get a dial tone.
Call an operator and find out from the operator.
Nobody else knows but the operator here.
Hi, can you tell me how much an emergency interrupt costs?
$1.50.
$1.50, okay.
And would you happen to know what that would cost long distance,
say, to California?
A long-distance interrupt?
Yeah.
No, I don't.
Could you connect me to a long-distance company?
Sure, I can.
Now, that was a very helpful operator.
MCI.
Uh-oh.
Enter the number you wish to call.
Now, this is where things start to break down.
For operator assistance, press zero now.
All right, we're going to press zero.
Hopefully this won't take 20 minutes.
Well, I don't think they can do emergency interrupts down there.
MCI can't do emergency interrupts yet?
Operator assistance.
They're a long-distance company.
They should be able to do all that.
I may help you.
Yes, hi, can you tell me how much an emergency interrupt call costs?
Okay, sir, I don't have the capabilities to do that.
I can give you the number for an operator who will,
and they can tell you how much the fee is.
Okay, who would that be?
It's AT&T, unfortunately.
They're the only ones who can do it.
Okay.
They're the only ones the government will allow to do that.
I see.
Their number is 10-28-80.
Okay, 10-28-80.
Yes, sir.
Thank you very much.
Thank you for using MCI, sir.
Bye-bye.
Well, I tried to use MCI, but unfortunately I guess we weren't able to.
We can't dial that number.
We can't dial 10-28-80 the way she said it.
That's like a silly way to say it.
You can call AT&T's 800 number, though, to get an operator.
You think so?
Oh, yeah, definitely.
Okay, let's give that a shot.
What do you think?
Yeah.
Which 800 number would that be?
Call AT&T.
1-800-CALL-ATT?
Yeah.
Okay, let's give that a try.
Let's get our dial tone.
AT&T.
All right, what do we do now?
Hit a zero?
A calling card or credit card call.
It'll tell you.
I'm just going to hit a zero.
Okay.
Don't have time for this kind of thing.
Come on.
Come on.
Please dial the number you are calling or zero for an operator.
I dialed zero.
It's zero again.
There.
Okay.
Okay.
Okay.
Okay.
Okay.
Okay.
Okay.
Okay.
Okay.
Okay.
Okay.
Okay.
Okay.
Okay.
Okay.
Okay.
Okay.
Okay.
Okay.
AT&T, how may I help you?
Hi.
Could you tell me how much an emergency interrupt call costs?
Eight dollars.
Eight dollars?
Uh-huh.
Wow.
Is that a new rate?
You're on the line interrupted, sir.
I'm sorry?
If you're on the line interrupted, there's an eight-dollar charge.
And how about just to verify it?
Four dollars.
Four dollars.
Okay.
Thank you very much.
That's AT&T.
Our caller was right.
Can you believe that?
Leave that $8 for an emergency interrupt.
And AT&T is the only company that will do it.
Why is that?
What do you mean that the government only
allows AT&T to do that?
It's funny, because all they're really doing is calling
the local operator in the town that you're
asking to have interrupted.
And getting them to do it.
Yeah, AT&T themselves can't do it.
So I don't know, it sounds like a scam.
That sounds like a big scam.
That sounds like a big scam, and hopefully the people
that shame on you are listening to this.
Well, that's all the time we have for tonight.
But boy, what a down note to end on.
$8 for an emergency interrupt.
Boy, I'm shocked.
Well, this goes to show you never
know where this program is going to wind up
and what kind of startling things we'll find out.
Next week, we'll have updates on the Bernie S situation, Kevin
Mitnick, and all kinds of other things going on in the hacker
world, and some stuff we didn't even get to this week
that we'll get to next week.
So tune in again next Wednesday night, 10 to 11,
for Off The Hook.
This is Manuel Goldstein for FiberOptic and Bernie S
somewhere in federal prison.
Good night.
The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a call.
It couldn't get much worse.
But if they could, they would, for Billy Bond,
for the best expected worst.
I hope that's understood, for Billy Bond.
I hope that's understood, for Billy Bond.
I hope that's understood, for Billy Bond.
I hope that's understood, for Billy Bond.
Good evening.
In the news tonight, more than 100,000 Rwandan refugees
are forced to leave their camps in Zaire.
Two other women pick up where Shannon Faulkner left off.
They take on the challenge of entering the citadel.
And in New York, the die is cast.
Get ready for the removal of one quarter
of the city's fire emergency call boxes.
With these and other stories, I'm Jose Santiago
in New York with Verna Avery Brown in Washington,
and this is the news for Wednesday, August 23, 1995.
First to Washington for the Pacifica National News.
The Clinton administration today named a new negotiating team
to continue diplomatic peace efforts in Bosnia.
The four men will replace three special envoys
killed in a Bosnian road accident over the weekend.
They were extraordinary Americans
who made reason their weapon,
freedom their cause, and peace their goal.
And President Clinton took a break from his Wyoming vacation
to attend a memorial ceremony
at Fort Myers, Virginia, for the three diplomats.
During the ceremony, Mr. Clinton posthumously awarded
Robert Frazier, Joe Kruzel, and Nelson Drew
the President's Citizen's Medal.
Some 133,000 Rwandan and Burundian refugees
have fled into the forests and parks of Zaire
to escape forced repatriation.
United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees Envoy
Carol Faubert today said Rwandan refugee leaders
were signaling that they would go home voluntarily
if Zairean troops pull out.
But the Deputy Chief of the Zairean Army
said the forced repatriation will continue
unless an international compromise is reached
to help the country deal with its 1.8 billion refugees.